1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 S1: Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,160 S1: downloading this podcast, and I hope you hear something that 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,560 S1: will really encourage and edify you. But before you start 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,400 S1: to listen, let me take a moment of your time 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,399 S1: and tell you about this month's truth tool. It's called 6 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,640 S1: secure How to Have a Healthy Attachment to God. And 7 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,360 S1: it follows that very often, whatever our relationship is like 8 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,000 S1: with authority figures predominantly our parents, we somehow transferred to 9 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,040 S1: how we see God. So if we have an angry parent, 10 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,319 S1: he's an angry God. If it's a distant parent, he's 11 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,520 S1: a God who's not there. I think it's important we 12 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,680 S1: understand who God really is. And in this wonderful book 13 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,760 S1: called secure, you're going to discover the character of God 14 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,120 S1: and how deeply in love God is with you. It's 15 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,839 S1: our truth tool. Our truth tools are my way of 16 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,680 S1: saying thank you because we are listener supported radio. So 17 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,600 S1: if you'd like a copy of secure, just call eight 7758. 18 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,760 S1: That's eight 7758. Give a gift of any amount. My 19 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,840 S1: way of saying thank you for supporting the program is 20 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,000 S1: I'll send you a copy of secure. You can also 21 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,480 S1: do this online at in the Market with Janet Parshall. 22 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,560 S1: Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover 23 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,890 S1: of the book secure. Click on the photo. Go right 24 00:01:01,890 --> 00:01:03,930 S1: on through. Make your donation and we'll send you a 25 00:01:03,930 --> 00:01:06,770 S1: copy again of secure. If you want to consider becoming 26 00:01:06,770 --> 00:01:09,890 S1: a partial partner, that is the ever increasing circle of 27 00:01:09,890 --> 00:01:12,050 S1: friends who give every single month at a level of 28 00:01:12,050 --> 00:01:14,330 S1: their own choosing. And my way of saying thank you 29 00:01:14,330 --> 00:01:16,770 S1: is this you always get the truth tool for each 30 00:01:16,770 --> 00:01:18,890 S1: and every month. And in addition to that, you get 31 00:01:18,890 --> 00:01:21,850 S1: a weekly newsletter that includes some of my writing and 32 00:01:21,850 --> 00:01:24,410 S1: a little audio piece just for my partial partners. So 33 00:01:24,410 --> 00:01:27,369 S1: either way, thank you in advance for prayerfully considering the 34 00:01:27,370 --> 00:01:30,650 S1: opportunity to financially support in the market with Janet partial 35 00:01:30,650 --> 00:01:32,690 S1: and keeping it on the air. Now, I hope you 36 00:01:32,730 --> 00:01:34,890 S1: hear something that will encourage you to get out and 37 00:01:34,890 --> 00:01:37,850 S1: influence and occupy in the marketplace of ideas. 38 00:01:39,290 --> 00:01:40,809 S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 39 00:01:41,130 --> 00:01:43,410 S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 40 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:45,570 S4: Americans worshiping government over God. 41 00:01:45,890 --> 00:01:49,290 S5: Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years. 42 00:01:49,290 --> 00:01:51,370 S6: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. 43 00:01:51,770 --> 00:01:52,810 S5: It is. 44 00:01:52,810 --> 00:02:09,070 S1: Not. Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet partial. 45 00:02:09,110 --> 00:02:11,550 S1: Happy Thursday to you. Thank you so much for spending 46 00:02:11,550 --> 00:02:13,589 S1: the hour with me. We got lots to talk. About 47 00:02:13,590 --> 00:02:15,829 S1: I want to talk about Israel and Iran right now. 48 00:02:15,830 --> 00:02:18,110 S1: By the way, we do this for two hours every day. 49 00:02:18,389 --> 00:02:21,470 S1: If you weren't able or don't get immediate access to 50 00:02:21,510 --> 00:02:23,709 S1: both hours, let me just encourage you just go to. 51 00:02:23,750 --> 00:02:26,350 S1: In the market with Janet Parshall and find your favorite 52 00:02:26,350 --> 00:02:29,269 S1: podcast and just download it. Put in today's date. Last 53 00:02:29,270 --> 00:02:32,630 S1: hour we went global. We talked about what's happening in Cuba, 54 00:02:32,669 --> 00:02:35,510 S1: hugely intense situation. We talk about what's happening in Iran. 55 00:02:35,510 --> 00:02:38,110 S1: And then Todd Nettleton from voice of the martyrs gave 56 00:02:38,110 --> 00:02:40,470 S1: us an overview of what's happening with the persecuted church. 57 00:02:40,470 --> 00:02:42,670 S1: And there's oh, so much going on there. So I'm 58 00:02:42,669 --> 00:02:44,750 S1: going to start with the CBN news story dealing with 59 00:02:44,750 --> 00:02:47,110 S1: Israel and Iran. Because that kind of puts on the 60 00:02:47,110 --> 00:02:50,470 S1: table yet again some of these international concerns. Here's Chris Mitchell. 61 00:02:50,990 --> 00:02:54,590 S7: On Truth Social. President Trump said he told Prime Minister 62 00:02:54,590 --> 00:02:58,560 S7: Benjamin Netanyahu that he prefers to make a deal with Iran. 63 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,880 S7: There was nothing definitive reached other than I insisted that 64 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,560 S7: negotiations with Iran continue. To see whether or not a 65 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,200 S7: deal can be consummated. But if not, we'll just have 66 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,160 S7: to see what the outcome will be. 67 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,480 S8: Well, look, the president has told his entire senior team 68 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,079 S8: that we should be trying to cut a deal that 69 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,120 S8: ensures the Iranians don't have nuclear weapons. But if we 70 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,320 S8: can't cut that deal, then there's another option on the table. 71 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,000 S8: So I think the president is going to continue to 72 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:24,160 S8: preserve his options. 73 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,880 S7: One of those options is a credible military threat. The 74 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,160 S7: Wall Street Journal reports the Pentagon ordered a second aircraft 75 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,760 S7: carrier to prepare to deploy to the region. This adds 76 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:39,160 S7: to the USS Abraham Lincoln carrier, F-15 and F-35 fighter 77 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:44,320 S7: jets and Patriot missile defense batteries. Prime Minister Netanyahu's statement 78 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:49,720 S7: said the discussion included negotiations with Iran, Gaza and regional 79 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,900 S7: developments and added the prime minister emphasized the security needs 80 00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:58,940 S7: of the State of Israel in the context of the negotiations. 81 00:03:59,380 --> 00:04:03,660 S7: Israel is concerned not only about Iran's nuclear program, but 82 00:04:03,660 --> 00:04:07,900 S7: its arsenal of ballistic missiles. President Trump and Secretary of 83 00:04:07,900 --> 00:04:12,420 S7: State Rubio have said missiles should be part of the negotiations. 84 00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:16,940 S7: But Iran's foreign minister says they're off the table. Israel 85 00:04:16,940 --> 00:04:21,180 S7: announced the successful test of David Sling, one layer of 86 00:04:21,180 --> 00:04:27,180 S7: Israel's multi-tiered anti-missile defense system. It's concerned Iran could launch 87 00:04:27,220 --> 00:04:32,099 S7: hundreds or thousands of missiles at once to overwhelm its defenses. 88 00:04:32,740 --> 00:04:37,100 S7: In a rare move, President Masoud Pezeshkian acknowledged that the 89 00:04:37,100 --> 00:04:40,500 S7: crackdown on the protesters caused great sorrow. 90 00:04:42,460 --> 00:04:44,540 S9: We are obliged to serve all those who were harmed 91 00:04:44,540 --> 00:04:46,860 S9: during these protests. We are ready to listen to the 92 00:04:46,860 --> 00:04:50,020 S9: people's voice. We are their servants. We are not seeking 93 00:04:50,020 --> 00:04:51,460 S9: confrontation with the people. 94 00:04:51,700 --> 00:04:55,430 S7: Some observers dismissed the apology as an attempt to curry 95 00:04:55,430 --> 00:05:02,590 S7: favor with President Trump during negotiations. The regime has killed 96 00:05:02,589 --> 00:05:06,470 S7: as many as 40,000 or more protesters. This man shared 97 00:05:06,470 --> 00:05:09,830 S7: what happened to his wife and daughter two days ago. 98 00:05:09,830 --> 00:05:13,110 S7: She went to the courthouse asking why they killed her daughter. 99 00:05:13,150 --> 00:05:16,110 S7: They sent her to prison. In prison, they raped her. 100 00:05:16,470 --> 00:05:20,789 S7: They also handcuffed me. They killed my daughter for protesting. 101 00:05:21,029 --> 00:05:25,750 S7: People wake up. Chris Mitchell, CBN news, Jerusalem. 102 00:05:25,990 --> 00:05:28,350 S1: Wow. So much in the news Benjamin Netanyahu is in 103 00:05:28,350 --> 00:05:30,430 S1: my town right now meeting with the president. We've got 104 00:05:30,430 --> 00:05:33,190 S1: the USS Abraham Lincoln as you heard in Chris's report 105 00:05:33,470 --> 00:05:35,830 S1: right there. And I know they want to exhaust all 106 00:05:35,830 --> 00:05:38,750 S1: diplomatic remedies possible, but boy, this is a moment in history, 107 00:05:38,750 --> 00:05:41,350 S1: and we truly hope that the people of Iran will 108 00:05:41,350 --> 00:05:44,630 S1: be set free and can rule themselves instead of being 109 00:05:44,630 --> 00:05:47,310 S1: under the heavy boot of the Ayatollah and the mullahs. 110 00:05:47,310 --> 00:05:49,870 S1: So pray for that end, would you, and pray for 111 00:05:49,870 --> 00:05:52,800 S1: those in authority there having to make difficult decisions. All 112 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,920 S1: options are on the table. They talk about having conversations 113 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,680 S1: with Iran. Iran won't touch the conversation about nuclear power capability. 114 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,640 S1: New warheads. That would be the sticky wicket, don't you think? 115 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,320 S1: So be praying about that situation. Let's flip to the 116 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:06,680 S1: other side of the globe and take a look at 117 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,760 S1: what's going on in Israel, where Israel's, excuse me, Australia, 118 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,479 S1: where Israel's president has made an appearance and was met 119 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:15,799 S1: with protesters. Listen. 120 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,440 S10: Isaac Herzog's tour ended as it began with protests on 121 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:20,200 S10: the streets. 122 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,960 S11: We reject this visit. We reject genocide, and we reject 123 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:28,320 S11: the very values that this unwelcomed guest represent. 124 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,159 S10: But as he has been throughout his visit, Israel's president 125 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,040 S10: was in much calmer environs. 126 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:33,960 S12: Thank you very much. 127 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,240 S10: After a stop at government House, he was supposed to 128 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,560 S10: head to Rippon Lea to visit. The fire bombed Adar Synagogue, 129 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,799 S10: but that was canceled early this morning, around the same 130 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,000 S10: time as anti Hertzog graffiti appeared and quickly disappeared at 131 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,339 S10: Melbourne University. While on breakfast TV, the president faced questions 132 00:06:52,339 --> 00:06:55,860 S10: over the Gaza war and the more than 70,000 dead. 133 00:06:55,900 --> 00:06:58,620 S13: Mr. president, when is enough? Enough? 134 00:06:58,900 --> 00:07:01,900 S14: So not right now. That's that's where we are at 135 00:07:01,900 --> 00:07:04,380 S14: at this stage of trying to exit from the war. 136 00:07:04,580 --> 00:07:07,820 S10: Instead, it was off to South Bank under intense security. 137 00:07:07,860 --> 00:07:10,700 S10: A handful of protesters kept well away by a massive 138 00:07:10,700 --> 00:07:14,420 S10: police presence. Melbourne has a larger Jewish population than any 139 00:07:14,460 --> 00:07:18,340 S10: Australian city, home to almost half the country's Jewish community. 140 00:07:18,660 --> 00:07:22,380 S15: With the synagogue burnings and the Bondi and the Bondi massacre. 141 00:07:22,660 --> 00:07:24,940 S15: And for him to come all this way to show 142 00:07:24,940 --> 00:07:27,220 S15: his support for us makes us feel better. 143 00:07:27,260 --> 00:07:30,300 S16: The president of the State of Israel, Mr. Isaac Herzog. 144 00:07:30,580 --> 00:07:34,500 S17: We came here to be with you, to look you 145 00:07:34,500 --> 00:07:40,780 S17: in the eye, to embrace, to remember and weep together. 146 00:07:41,340 --> 00:07:45,620 S17: Keep your Jewish hearts on your sleeve and wear your 147 00:07:45,660 --> 00:07:47,180 S17: Zionism with pride. 148 00:07:47,580 --> 00:07:51,910 S10: This was Isaac Herzog's final public engagement in Australia after 149 00:07:51,910 --> 00:07:55,230 S10: four days of rapturous receptions like this, but also, of course, 150 00:07:55,270 --> 00:07:59,430 S10: protests against the actions of Israel, the country he's here representing. 151 00:07:59,630 --> 00:08:03,990 S17: And I say to all those protesters outside, go protest 152 00:08:03,990 --> 00:08:07,510 S17: in front of the Iranian embassy or whichever embassy they have. 153 00:08:09,590 --> 00:08:13,430 S10: Parting shots from both sides. Ben Knight, ABC news, Melbourne. 154 00:08:13,830 --> 00:08:17,550 S1: Well, they have a problem in Australia. There's a problem globally, obviously, 155 00:08:17,550 --> 00:08:20,550 S1: on this demonic rise of anti-Semitism. But I think there's 156 00:08:20,550 --> 00:08:22,830 S1: so much more that the Prime Minister could do to 157 00:08:22,870 --> 00:08:25,710 S1: mitigate this issue. But that's a conversation for another day. 158 00:08:25,710 --> 00:08:27,270 S1: But just think about this for a minute. So you've 159 00:08:27,270 --> 00:08:30,590 S1: got the president, Isaac Herzog, in Australia. You've got the 160 00:08:30,590 --> 00:08:33,870 S1: prime minister here in my town of Washington, D.C., there's 161 00:08:33,870 --> 00:08:37,230 S1: very significant conversations that need to take place right now, 162 00:08:37,270 --> 00:08:40,790 S1: particularly as we see this fomenting in Iran. So lots 163 00:08:40,790 --> 00:08:43,110 S1: to be praying about. The Bible tells us to pray 164 00:08:43,110 --> 00:08:45,390 S1: for those in authority. You know what's wonderful? You and 165 00:08:45,390 --> 00:08:47,970 S1: I don't have to understand a State Department position or 166 00:08:48,010 --> 00:08:51,690 S1: an Oval Office piece suggestion. We pray for those in authority, 167 00:08:51,690 --> 00:08:53,690 S1: whether or not we voted for them, whether or not 168 00:08:53,690 --> 00:08:56,370 S1: they're on our favorite list, or our most despised list. 169 00:08:56,410 --> 00:08:58,490 S1: We are to pray for them, and that is a 170 00:08:58,490 --> 00:09:01,290 S1: directive that comes with a promise. We get to live 171 00:09:01,290 --> 00:09:03,410 S1: quiet and godly lives as a result of that. But 172 00:09:03,410 --> 00:09:06,890 S1: these are major, major issues that they're having to contend with. 173 00:09:06,890 --> 00:09:08,730 S1: So do that. And while you're at it, be praying 174 00:09:08,730 --> 00:09:11,570 S1: for the situation in Iran as well. And I appreciate 175 00:09:11,570 --> 00:09:13,610 S1: what President Herzog has to say about if you want 176 00:09:13,610 --> 00:09:16,130 S1: to protest now, the place you should be protesting is 177 00:09:16,130 --> 00:09:18,970 S1: in front of the Iranian embassy that they be forced 178 00:09:19,010 --> 00:09:21,290 S1: to have to deal with the issues they've created for 179 00:09:21,290 --> 00:09:24,410 S1: their people. It's a very fragile regime right now. And oh, 180 00:09:24,450 --> 00:09:27,329 S1: we pray that the sunlight can come in. And in 181 00:09:27,330 --> 00:09:29,449 S1: my case, I'd like to spell it's o n back 182 00:09:29,450 --> 00:09:44,209 S1: after this. The way we related to authority figures growing 183 00:09:44,210 --> 00:09:46,300 S1: up often shapes how we relate to God. So if 184 00:09:46,340 --> 00:09:48,860 S1: you grew up with a critical or disengaged parent, you 185 00:09:48,860 --> 00:09:51,179 S1: might think God is demanding or distant. And that's why 186 00:09:51,179 --> 00:09:53,700 S1: I've chosen secure how to have a healthy attachment to 187 00:09:53,740 --> 00:09:56,100 S1: God as this month's truth tool. Learn to know the 188 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:58,860 S1: true character of our Heavenly Father. As for your copy 189 00:09:58,860 --> 00:10:00,660 S1: of secure, when you give a gift of any amount 190 00:10:00,660 --> 00:10:05,459 S1: to in the market, call 877858. That's 877858 or go 191 00:10:05,460 --> 00:10:11,260 S1: to in the market with Janet Parshall. George Bernard Shaw 192 00:10:11,260 --> 00:10:13,780 S1: once said, we learn from history that we learn nothing 193 00:10:13,780 --> 00:10:19,340 S1: from history. Uh, I respectfully disagree. I would rather hearken 194 00:10:19,340 --> 00:10:21,819 S1: to the likes of one David McCullough, who's written quite 195 00:10:21,860 --> 00:10:25,060 S1: a lot of books on history, American history in particular. 196 00:10:25,059 --> 00:10:28,459 S1: I recommend you as book on John Adams. Superb history, 197 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:31,579 S1: he said, is a guide to navigation in perilous times. 198 00:10:31,740 --> 00:10:34,620 S1: History is who we are and why we are the 199 00:10:34,620 --> 00:10:37,420 S1: way we are now. If you believe that, and I do, 200 00:10:37,460 --> 00:10:39,819 S1: then that becomes even more important when we as followers 201 00:10:39,820 --> 00:10:43,860 S1: of Christ, understand our history, church history. But in fact 202 00:10:43,860 --> 00:10:46,200 S1: we don't. We're poor students in this particular area. I 203 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,360 S1: can't quite figure out why the lackluster approach by far 204 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,839 S1: too many Christians to understand our history. In fact, we 205 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,960 S1: very often go to what happens and when the Bible 206 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,719 S1: ends before the book of Revelation, by the way. And 207 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,640 S1: then we jump to the Reformation. And yet there's thousands 208 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,240 S1: of years of history in between worth our consideration, and 209 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,320 S1: we should be studying them. So that's exactly what we're 210 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,840 S1: going to do this hour. And our teacher this hour is, 211 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,520 S1: in fact, a teacher. He is the chair of the 212 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,640 S1: history department at Grove City College, where he's taught numerous 213 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,480 S1: classes on the pre-modern world for more than two decades. 214 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,400 S1: He's also taught at a university in China. He's worked 215 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,559 S1: on archaeological projects and sites in Sardinia, Corinth and Rome. 216 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:25,400 S1: Wouldn't you love to be in a suitcase for those trips? 217 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,920 S1: I certainly would. He also helped excavate the Byzantine emperor 218 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,040 S1: Justinian's church in Carthage. How cool is that? And then 219 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,200 S1: he got his doctorate in history, uh, at Michigan State University. 220 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,600 S1: He has been an elder in his local Presbyterian church 221 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,080 S1: for over a decade, and serves on several committees in 222 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,809 S1: his presbytery. He has written the book that is going 223 00:11:43,809 --> 00:11:45,530 S1: to be the basis of our conversation. Let me just 224 00:11:45,530 --> 00:11:47,609 S1: give you a fair warning. It's chock full of history. 225 00:11:47,610 --> 00:11:48,810 S1: I'm not going to get to all of it. So 226 00:11:48,809 --> 00:11:51,689 S1: I picked some chapters that I thought were particularly delightful. 227 00:11:51,690 --> 00:11:53,450 S1: And we're going to talk about those, but it's called 228 00:11:53,450 --> 00:11:57,410 S1: 30 Key Moments in the History of Christianity. Stop. See, 229 00:11:57,410 --> 00:11:59,290 S1: I'm not going to get to all 30 moments again. 230 00:11:59,330 --> 00:12:00,850 S1: This is not a book report. This is to get 231 00:12:00,850 --> 00:12:05,650 S1: your curiosity going. Subtitle Inspiring True Stories from the Early 232 00:12:05,650 --> 00:12:08,410 S1: Church Around the World. Mark Graham is with us. Mark, 233 00:12:08,410 --> 00:12:10,650 S1: thank you so much for being here. My first question 234 00:12:10,690 --> 00:12:13,050 S1: out of the gate is, of all the areas that 235 00:12:13,050 --> 00:12:15,530 S1: you could have studied, what drew you to history? Because 236 00:12:15,570 --> 00:12:17,410 S1: for a whole lot of people, history is a book 237 00:12:17,410 --> 00:12:19,450 S1: that gets dust on the shelf and you never touch it. 238 00:12:19,490 --> 00:12:20,610 S1: Why history for you. 239 00:12:21,570 --> 00:12:25,290 S18: Right? Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having me on. And, um. Yeah, 240 00:12:25,290 --> 00:12:28,730 S18: it was. I mean, my love of history really began in, 241 00:12:28,730 --> 00:12:31,610 S18: in second grade. I mean, it came with a book, 242 00:12:31,650 --> 00:12:34,450 S18: a book my mom purchased for me, and it was 243 00:12:34,450 --> 00:12:36,770 S18: no turning back from there. So it was a happened 244 00:12:36,770 --> 00:12:38,690 S18: to be a book on ancient history. So I've always 245 00:12:38,690 --> 00:12:43,260 S18: been a strong, um say fan of the the older 246 00:12:43,300 --> 00:12:44,900 S18: the better in a lot of ways, but the ancient 247 00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:46,900 S18: and then the medieval, so it really does. I can 248 00:12:46,940 --> 00:12:50,380 S18: date it very precisely to my mother purchasing me a book, uh, 249 00:12:50,380 --> 00:12:53,660 S18: when I was in the second grade. And, um, all 250 00:12:53,660 --> 00:12:54,540 S18: with that. Yep. 251 00:12:54,580 --> 00:12:56,700 S1: Wow. Thank God for mothers who really have that kind 252 00:12:56,700 --> 00:12:59,500 S1: of foresight. That's fabulous. Amen. Okay, so you would not 253 00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:02,500 S1: be dabbling in archaeology if that didn't work its way 254 00:13:02,540 --> 00:13:05,020 S1: somewhere into your Pilgrim's Progress? How did that happen? 255 00:13:05,780 --> 00:13:07,660 S18: Right. Yeah. So when I was in, um, when I 256 00:13:07,660 --> 00:13:10,020 S18: was in graduate school, uh, I was doing a lot 257 00:13:10,020 --> 00:13:13,340 S18: of study of, um, Saint Augustine, Saint Augustine, North Africa, 258 00:13:13,340 --> 00:13:16,380 S18: so Christian North Africa, uh, and, uh, there in the 259 00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:19,620 S18: Roman Empire. And so, um, there was a dig going 260 00:13:19,620 --> 00:13:21,780 S18: on in, uh, in Carthage. So this was in, uh, 261 00:13:21,780 --> 00:13:24,459 S18: in ancient Carthage, in the modern city of or town 262 00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:26,780 S18: of Carthage in that area. And so, uh, they were 263 00:13:26,780 --> 00:13:29,900 S18: looking for somebody to, to come along on that particular 264 00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:32,740 S18: dig and, um, handle some of the, uh, the artifacts 265 00:13:32,740 --> 00:13:34,700 S18: and do some cataloging. And I had done some of 266 00:13:34,740 --> 00:13:37,820 S18: that with a museum when I was just starting graduate school. 267 00:13:37,820 --> 00:13:41,000 S18: So I applied for the position, got signed up for that, 268 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:45,360 S18: and then spent five wonderful summers excavating what we found 269 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,760 S18: ultimately to be the Emperor. The Byzantine Emperor, Justinian's church 270 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,800 S18: in North Africa, hitherto unknown for that point. So we 271 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,960 S18: spent several summers unearthing that and a delightful time. 272 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,520 S1: Wow. So it's probably a difficult question to answer, but 273 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,240 S1: I'm going to ask it anyway. What was your favorite dig, 274 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,280 S1: and what was the most exciting thing you ever found? 275 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:11,640 S18: Yes. Um, it was definitely the the church in Carthage. And, um, 276 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:13,760 S18: let me see the I mean, we when we found the, 277 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,480 S18: the baptistery, uh, there because it was, uh, when we 278 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:22,480 S18: found the baptistery, it was, um, just an incredible experience 279 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,800 S18: to know that at that particular baptistery, a whole slew 280 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,560 S18: of of, um, of Christians were brought into the church 281 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,200 S18: in North Africa after a period of, of heretics taking 282 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,400 S18: over North Africa. Uh, and so now this was Justinian's 283 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:41,650 S18: return of Orthodoxy, Christian Orthodoxy, Nicene Christianity following the Nicene 284 00:14:41,650 --> 00:14:45,610 S18: Creed to North Africa, and so discovering that baptistery, where 285 00:14:45,610 --> 00:14:49,130 S18: we knew that hundreds and thousands of Christians had been 286 00:14:49,130 --> 00:14:52,570 S18: brought in to the church at that particular site, that 287 00:14:52,570 --> 00:14:55,970 S18: that certainly was was the most exciting part of of 288 00:14:55,970 --> 00:14:57,370 S18: any of the digs I've been part of. 289 00:14:57,410 --> 00:15:00,650 S1: Wow, wow. So I want people to get excited about archaeology. 290 00:15:00,690 --> 00:15:02,930 S1: For a lot of people, it's just dusty stones and 291 00:15:02,930 --> 00:15:05,050 S1: it's dried up and they can't see that. A it's 292 00:15:05,050 --> 00:15:07,770 S1: a science. And B for us as believers, I love 293 00:15:07,770 --> 00:15:10,970 S1: it because when you can substantiate history, it speaks to 294 00:15:10,970 --> 00:15:13,490 S1: the validity and the historicity of the scriptures. So I 295 00:15:13,530 --> 00:15:17,210 S1: don't think you should ignore these. This is an external, authentic, 296 00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:20,570 S1: authentic authentication of the Word of God. And it's so important. 297 00:15:20,770 --> 00:15:24,130 S1: So we're in Washington, D.C. we have a boatload of museums, obviously, 298 00:15:24,130 --> 00:15:26,850 S1: the Smithsonian among them. So the closest I get is 299 00:15:26,850 --> 00:15:29,210 S1: looking through a piece of glass. And that's all I 300 00:15:29,210 --> 00:15:31,010 S1: can do, is just press up against the glass and 301 00:15:31,010 --> 00:15:33,730 S1: look as close as I can. When you're digging as 302 00:15:33,730 --> 00:15:36,050 S1: you were when you were at Carthage and you're thinking 303 00:15:36,510 --> 00:15:39,470 S1: there were people here. There were cultures and customs and 304 00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:42,630 S1: marriages and births and deaths and diets, and you're this 305 00:15:42,630 --> 00:15:44,390 S1: close to it. What does that feel like? 306 00:15:45,270 --> 00:15:47,350 S18: Uh, yeah. So, I mean, when you, when you find, 307 00:15:47,390 --> 00:15:50,070 S18: let's say, just say, for example, you find a coin, 308 00:15:50,110 --> 00:15:52,430 S18: a fifth, sixth century coin, knowing that, you know, the 309 00:15:52,430 --> 00:15:54,790 S18: last person that touched that was, uh, was in North 310 00:15:54,790 --> 00:15:58,270 S18: Africa in the fifth or sixth century. That's a connection there. Seeing, um, 311 00:15:58,270 --> 00:16:03,350 S18: we also found some, um, pilgrimage, uh, medallions, uh, knowing that, uh, 312 00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:05,310 S18: believers would come from who knows where to come to 313 00:16:05,310 --> 00:16:08,790 S18: this particular site and, um, got these, uh, these small medallions, 314 00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:12,350 S18: and somebody dropped one and lost it way back then. So, yeah. 315 00:16:12,350 --> 00:16:15,670 S18: So there's a I've always felt a strong, um, and 316 00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:20,030 S18: compelling emotional connection, but a very objectively, uh, just a 317 00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:22,590 S18: beautiful connection to the people of the past and just 318 00:16:22,590 --> 00:16:25,270 S18: one other. I mean, just another example and just something 319 00:16:25,270 --> 00:16:28,350 S18: so mundane as a as a roof tile in this church, 320 00:16:28,390 --> 00:16:30,830 S18: a fragment of it. And you could see the fingerprints 321 00:16:30,830 --> 00:16:33,310 S18: of the person who had made it. So it's that 322 00:16:33,310 --> 00:16:35,840 S18: it's that type of connection to see the fingerprints of 323 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,160 S18: an early Christian who helped build this church. And there 324 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,120 S18: it is, impressed right into the clay. 325 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,360 S1: Wow. Wow. And just think how old that is. My 326 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,840 S1: fingerprint moment is when you go to the National Archives 327 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,600 S1: and they have one of the copies of the original 328 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,360 S1: draft of the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence, and 329 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,880 S1: it's under glass and you could see fingerprints on the 330 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:55,960 S1: margin of the paper. And I thought, oh, man, that's 331 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,320 S1: too bad. When they put it behind glass to display it, 332 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,560 S1: somebody must have had their fingerprints put on it. The 333 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,520 S1: guard goes, no, ma'am. That's where they each held the paper, 334 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,600 S1: steadied it with their one hand, while with the quill 335 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,240 S1: pen they affixed their name to a document that could 336 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,120 S1: end in their death. So that was my fingerprint picture. 337 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,160 S1: It's the fingerprints of history that I find so fascinating. 338 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,840 S1: There is so much mark in this excellent book of yours. 339 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,240 S1: I've handpicked some stories, I want to dig into them, 340 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:20,959 S1: and by the time it's all said and done, friends, 341 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,200 S1: I want you to get excited about history. This is 342 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,600 S1: our history, the church universal. We need to know this 343 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:44,450 S1: more with Mark Graham after this. We get to spend 344 00:17:44,450 --> 00:17:46,690 S1: the hour with Mark Graham, who chaired the history department 345 00:17:46,690 --> 00:17:49,409 S1: at Grove City College. Love. Grove city, by the way. 346 00:17:49,570 --> 00:17:52,770 S1: He's taught numerous classes on the pre-modern world for more 347 00:17:52,770 --> 00:17:55,130 S1: than two decades. You should see some of the classes 348 00:17:55,130 --> 00:17:58,010 S1: that he's taught at. Full disclosure, Mark, I wanted to 349 00:17:58,010 --> 00:18:00,290 S1: check out the classes. I thought, oh my word. I 350 00:18:00,290 --> 00:18:02,770 S1: wouldn't think there would be that many divergent topics to cover, 351 00:18:02,770 --> 00:18:06,210 S1: but there certainly are. And I read the reviews. Your 352 00:18:06,210 --> 00:18:08,929 S1: students really love you. In fact, many said they were 353 00:18:08,930 --> 00:18:11,010 S1: the best teacher that they had while they were there. 354 00:18:11,210 --> 00:18:13,930 S1: But you're tough. So gulp. I get to start this 355 00:18:13,930 --> 00:18:17,290 S1: conversation with a tough professor and the chair of the department, 356 00:18:17,290 --> 00:18:19,609 S1: so I'll try to be cogent. And my questions to you, 357 00:18:19,970 --> 00:18:22,490 S1: which first, a philosophical question before we dig into some 358 00:18:22,490 --> 00:18:25,090 S1: of these 30 key moments. And they are magnificent moments 359 00:18:25,090 --> 00:18:27,650 S1: in the book. What is it about us as believers? 360 00:18:27,650 --> 00:18:31,210 S1: Just 35,000 foot question I'm a why person. Why do 361 00:18:31,210 --> 00:18:33,790 S1: we stop when we get to the end, for example, 362 00:18:33,790 --> 00:18:35,590 S1: of the epistles, and then we jump? Fast forward to 363 00:18:35,590 --> 00:18:38,070 S1: the Reformation and we kind of leave all that stuff 364 00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:40,669 S1: in between. If we're not a history major or minor, 365 00:18:40,670 --> 00:18:43,630 S1: if this isn't a personal passion, we just don't turn 366 00:18:43,630 --> 00:18:46,750 S1: there automatically. And yet we're leaving this huge, monstrous gap 367 00:18:46,750 --> 00:18:48,750 S1: in who we are as a church. Why is that? 368 00:18:49,590 --> 00:18:53,550 S18: Yes, I think it's, um, you know, as, as Protestants. Um, 369 00:18:53,710 --> 00:18:55,909 S18: and I'm a Protestant, and my book is written to 370 00:18:55,950 --> 00:18:59,550 S18: Protestants and Catholics and others, but I think specifically as, 371 00:19:00,070 --> 00:19:05,149 S18: as Protestants, um, we focus so much on the moment 372 00:19:05,150 --> 00:19:07,510 S18: of what we would see, what Protestants tend to see 373 00:19:07,510 --> 00:19:10,869 S18: as the recovery of, of Christianity. Um, and I mean, 374 00:19:10,910 --> 00:19:14,950 S18: that's arguably we could debate that, but, um, nonetheless, um, 375 00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:18,310 S18: so they focus on, you know, the Luther moment, the Calvin, 376 00:19:18,350 --> 00:19:22,109 S18: you know, some of the reformers. And so leaving for you. 377 00:19:22,150 --> 00:19:23,989 S18: So you have the, the end of the of the, 378 00:19:24,030 --> 00:19:26,550 S18: of the canon, so the close of the canon and 379 00:19:26,550 --> 00:19:31,320 S18: then the Christians then just, I mean, especially Protestants tend 380 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,840 S18: to jump right to the Reformation because what they see 381 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,360 S18: in between, they often see it as confusing. Um, so 382 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,280 S18: when they look at when they try to understand, let's say, 383 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,800 S18: Christian practice and Christian liturgy from some of these, um, 384 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,240 S18: you know, these centuries after the close of the canon, 385 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,359 S18: it's confusing to them. It might look foreign. It doesn't 386 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,119 S18: look like the way they worship, per se. And so 387 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,080 S18: I think that's a start of this, uh, that, um, 388 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,080 S18: it just it looks like another world. And they like 389 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,560 S18: to see that. Well, the church must have been mired 390 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,480 S18: in a dark age for a long time. And then 391 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,040 S18: now there's the recovery of it. And so I. Yeah, 392 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,640 S18: I'm not I'm not endorsing that view. You know, that 393 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,560 S18: by reading the book. I'm not endorsing that view. But nonetheless, 394 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,200 S18: I think that's I think that really is what happens 395 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,400 S18: with this. They they don't want to wrestle with something 396 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,959 S18: that might seem a little bit foreign, a little bit 397 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,520 S18: uncomfortable at times, and so just easier to ignore it. 398 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,360 S18: And um, and I think there's that and I think 399 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:28,280 S18: there's also just a modern, especially American tendency, uh, to 400 00:20:28,460 --> 00:20:30,340 S18: If we look back to the ancient world, we might 401 00:20:30,340 --> 00:20:33,100 S18: look back to the classics, and then we dismiss the whole, 402 00:20:33,140 --> 00:20:36,100 S18: you know, the Middle Ages as the Dark Ages. And 403 00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:38,540 S18: so we tend to dismiss that just as Americans and 404 00:20:38,540 --> 00:20:42,500 S18: moderns anyway. Um, and so, um, you know, so the 405 00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:46,940 S18: whole idea of medieval medieval can have positive connotations of 406 00:20:46,940 --> 00:20:49,620 S18: knights in shining armor, but it also has some very 407 00:20:49,619 --> 00:20:53,260 S18: negative connotations of a thousand years without a bath. And, um, 408 00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:55,379 S18: and so that's I'm thinking you've just got several of 409 00:20:55,380 --> 00:20:58,940 S18: those things that conspire together, really, that make that an 410 00:20:58,940 --> 00:21:02,260 S18: era that that many Christians just would rather soon forget, 411 00:21:02,260 --> 00:21:03,780 S18: or at least not look too closely into. 412 00:21:03,820 --> 00:21:05,660 S1: I think that's a great answer. And if I may 413 00:21:05,660 --> 00:21:07,620 S1: be so bold, I think one of the questions too 414 00:21:07,660 --> 00:21:10,180 S1: is it looks oh so Catholic. And I'm just being 415 00:21:10,180 --> 00:21:13,340 S1: forthright here, where we've got Peter and Paul and John, 416 00:21:13,380 --> 00:21:16,540 S1: there are no denominations, right? The Southern Baptists didn't emerge 417 00:21:16,540 --> 00:21:20,180 S1: in 1949. 42 A.D. I mean, you know, so that's 418 00:21:20,180 --> 00:21:22,420 S1: a problem for a whole lot of people. So it 419 00:21:22,660 --> 00:21:24,420 S1: but I think it's important for us, this is why 420 00:21:24,460 --> 00:21:28,470 S1: reading contextually, not just the scriptures but understanding particularly history, 421 00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:31,350 S1: to do it contextually, I think is extremely important. So 422 00:21:31,390 --> 00:21:35,230 S1: we need to understand the Holy Roman Empire as being 423 00:21:35,230 --> 00:21:38,150 S1: just that. It was a governing system as well as 424 00:21:38,190 --> 00:21:41,350 S1: a religious worldview, just a flyover on that. Can you 425 00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:42,510 S1: explain that to our friends? 426 00:21:43,390 --> 00:21:46,110 S18: So, okay, so, um, if we're talking about, let's say, 427 00:21:46,109 --> 00:21:48,229 S18: the late, the late Roman Empire, when we see the 428 00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:52,230 S18: embrace of Christianity. So and then then at various stages throughout, 429 00:21:52,230 --> 00:21:55,070 S18: we're going to have a variety of empires through those 430 00:21:55,070 --> 00:21:57,310 S18: Middle Ages or, you know, through those first thousand years 431 00:21:57,310 --> 00:21:59,870 S18: that I cover in the book. And so, um, yes, 432 00:21:59,869 --> 00:22:02,429 S18: you've got the the late Roman Empire, you've got the 433 00:22:02,430 --> 00:22:06,270 S18: Byzantine Empire, you've got Charlemagne's Empire, you've got a series 434 00:22:06,270 --> 00:22:09,030 S18: of empires that are going to be embracing the faith. 435 00:22:09,470 --> 00:22:13,109 S18: And they they have a very close connection of the 436 00:22:13,109 --> 00:22:17,229 S18: Christian faith with their politics on those empires specifically. Now, 437 00:22:17,270 --> 00:22:19,550 S18: as you know, from from the book, not not all 438 00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:23,390 S18: the Christians of this thousand year period, especially globally, are 439 00:22:23,390 --> 00:22:27,040 S18: going to be in self-described Christian empires, but certainly we 440 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,880 S18: have that there. And so by, you know, so let's 441 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,680 S18: just say that the fourth century. So the 300 seconds, 442 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,040 S18: it begins with Christians being persecuted in the Roman Empire. 443 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:42,199 S18: It ends with Christians officially declaring Christianity the state faith 444 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,639 S18: and persecuting others. Right. And so you get it's a, 445 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,520 S18: it's a, a very difficult, um, connection to, you know, 446 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,880 S18: sometimes for, for moderns to understand. But, um, that's not 447 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,480 S18: the only game in town as far as globally speaking 448 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,199 S18: at that time. But as far as these empires, specifically 449 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,720 S18: in the Mediterranean, in the West, some of the ones 450 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,080 S18: that we identify, maybe when we do look at this period. 451 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,119 S18: So we're looking at the late Roman Empire, the Charlemagne's Empire, 452 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,520 S18: the medieval empires, so what we call Christendom. So yeah, 453 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,200 S18: there's there's a very close connection of, of Christianity and 454 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,200 S18: politics in those. And so, yeah. So that's, that's a 455 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,160 S18: reality for better and for worse. And that's the things 456 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:21,560 S18: I try to pull out in the book. Yeah. 457 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,660 S1: Exactly. Right. But facts are facts, as John Adams said. 458 00:23:24,660 --> 00:23:26,500 S1: So you just have to look at them and say, okay, 459 00:23:26,540 --> 00:23:28,979 S1: that's what went on. That takes me to my second question, 460 00:23:28,980 --> 00:23:30,619 S1: and I have I could talk to you for hours, 461 00:23:30,619 --> 00:23:32,700 S1: and I have only such a short period of time, 462 00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:34,619 S1: and yet you cover 30 key moments. And I'd love 463 00:23:34,619 --> 00:23:36,780 S1: to talk about all 30. How did you reduce it 464 00:23:36,780 --> 00:23:38,580 S1: to 30? How did you pick just 30? 465 00:23:39,260 --> 00:23:42,619 S18: Yeah. Okay. So I think the first thing that that 466 00:23:42,660 --> 00:23:46,020 S18: I'll just start with, um, what they're not. Okay. So 467 00:23:46,020 --> 00:23:48,380 S18: I don't see these as turning points in the history 468 00:23:48,380 --> 00:23:51,060 S18: of the church per se. Okay, so that's, uh, so 469 00:23:51,060 --> 00:23:53,020 S18: one might think in looking at the title that I'm 470 00:23:53,060 --> 00:23:55,980 S18: putting the, uh, 30, you know, 30 key turning points 471 00:23:55,980 --> 00:23:59,020 S18: or maybe the top 30, uh, moments. And I didn't 472 00:23:59,020 --> 00:24:01,780 S18: do that. And so I there's there's another thing that 473 00:24:01,780 --> 00:24:04,619 S18: guided what I was looking at, um, and um, so 474 00:24:04,660 --> 00:24:06,260 S18: I guess I'll come to that in a minute then. 475 00:24:06,340 --> 00:24:09,380 S1: Yeah. Very good. What a radio professional. You're being sensitive 476 00:24:09,380 --> 00:24:12,060 S1: to the great good. So we'll pick up what the 477 00:24:12,060 --> 00:24:15,140 S1: criteria was to be included as one of the 30 478 00:24:15,180 --> 00:24:18,340 S1: key moments. It's an absolutely fascinating book, and it should 479 00:24:18,340 --> 00:24:20,619 S1: be read by all of us because it's our history 480 00:24:20,619 --> 00:24:24,429 S1: as the church universal. And we shouldn't just ignore centuries 481 00:24:24,430 --> 00:24:27,270 S1: of what happened, millennia of what happened. That's all important. And, 482 00:24:27,310 --> 00:24:30,590 S1: you know, the gospel changes everything. And it's fascinating to 483 00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:34,430 S1: read people who made the choice, the decisions they made 484 00:24:34,430 --> 00:24:36,030 S1: and the impact it had on their life. More with 485 00:24:36,030 --> 00:24:52,790 S1: Mark Graham right after this. There's a sense of anxiety 486 00:24:52,790 --> 00:24:54,949 S1: in our country, and I know you feel it, too. 487 00:24:55,150 --> 00:24:57,510 S1: As a partial partner, you can help reach the world 488 00:24:57,510 --> 00:25:00,750 S1: with the truth and peace found only in Christ. And 489 00:25:00,830 --> 00:25:03,629 S1: as a partial partner, you'll receive exclusive behind the scenes 490 00:25:03,630 --> 00:25:06,590 S1: information and benefits directly from me, keeping you up to 491 00:25:06,590 --> 00:25:08,830 S1: date on what's going on in our world. So call 492 00:25:08,830 --> 00:25:13,629 S1: 87758 or go online to In the market with Janet Parshall. 493 00:25:16,790 --> 00:25:18,909 S1: We're spending the hour with Mark Graham, who's chair of 494 00:25:18,910 --> 00:25:21,810 S1: the history department at Grove City College, where he has 495 00:25:21,810 --> 00:25:24,490 S1: taught numerous classes on the pre-modern world for more than 496 00:25:24,490 --> 00:25:27,250 S1: two decades. He has taught at a university in China. 497 00:25:27,250 --> 00:25:31,889 S1: He has worked on archaeological project sites in Sardinia, Corinth, Rome. 498 00:25:31,930 --> 00:25:36,010 S1: He also helped excavate the Byzantine emperor Justinian's Church in Carthage. 499 00:25:36,170 --> 00:25:38,610 S1: And he's written the book that makes us join with 500 00:25:38,609 --> 00:25:41,130 S1: him today, called 30 Key Moments in the History of 501 00:25:41,130 --> 00:25:45,969 S1: Christianity Inspiring True Stories from the Early church Around the world. 502 00:25:46,010 --> 00:25:49,170 S1: Absolutely fascinating book to put in your legacy library and 503 00:25:49,170 --> 00:25:51,290 S1: a great resource, by the way. So the question on 504 00:25:51,290 --> 00:25:54,649 S1: the table was 30 Key moments. There are gazillions of 505 00:25:54,650 --> 00:25:57,490 S1: moments out there. How did you relegate it to just 30? 506 00:25:57,530 --> 00:25:59,490 S1: And I asked you that question just before we wrote it, 507 00:25:59,530 --> 00:26:01,810 S1: rode up to a hard break, and you were kindly 508 00:26:01,810 --> 00:26:03,649 S1: sensitive to the music, so I'd love for you to 509 00:26:03,650 --> 00:26:05,170 S1: explain now the rest of the story. 510 00:26:05,810 --> 00:26:09,850 S18: All right. Yeah. So, um, my criteria was this I, I've, 511 00:26:09,890 --> 00:26:13,850 S18: I've taught most of these moments and many others for decades. Okay. 512 00:26:13,890 --> 00:26:15,970 S18: So I've got I've got a lot of experience with 513 00:26:15,970 --> 00:26:19,659 S18: teaching these moments as, as in classes. But over time. 514 00:26:19,660 --> 00:26:21,740 S18: I guess as a teacher, you come to see that 515 00:26:21,740 --> 00:26:25,860 S18: certain moments have a particular way of encouraging, challenging and 516 00:26:25,859 --> 00:26:28,500 S18: teaching people and even convicting them, right? So there's a 517 00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:31,540 S18: lot of fascinating and important historical moments out there. But 518 00:26:31,540 --> 00:26:34,300 S18: but some just have a way of they hold a 519 00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:37,660 S18: message and a message of, again, I can see it as, 520 00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:41,500 S18: you know, positive as encouragement. Sometimes it's convicting a, you know, 521 00:26:41,540 --> 00:26:44,859 S18: a tale of woe. On the other hand. And so, um, 522 00:26:44,859 --> 00:26:46,699 S18: so that was really, uh, you know, what was what 523 00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:48,980 S18: was driving this and also a couple other things maybe 524 00:26:48,980 --> 00:26:52,820 S18: with I, um, because I teach a broad range of classes. Uh, 525 00:26:52,820 --> 00:26:56,260 S18: I wanted these also as I chose them and selected them. 526 00:26:56,260 --> 00:26:58,100 S18: I wanted them to be global. I wanted them to 527 00:26:58,140 --> 00:27:02,900 S18: represent the one holy, Catholic and apostolic church worldwide, uh, 528 00:27:02,900 --> 00:27:05,620 S18: as much as I possibly could. Uh, and so that 529 00:27:05,619 --> 00:27:07,900 S18: was that was what was also driving this. And if 530 00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:10,899 S18: it comes to 30, I mean, so why why 30, I, 531 00:27:11,020 --> 00:27:13,100 S18: I guess by the time that this became a book 532 00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:15,859 S18: project and I decided to put this in a book project, I, 533 00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:19,080 S18: I pictured in my mind maybe one option for reading 534 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,040 S18: this would be one month so anybody can read. Just 535 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,359 S18: a just a brief chapter in the morning, in the evening. 536 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,080 S18: And it's just it's a it's a month of reading. 537 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,959 S18: And so I want to I really wanted to, to 538 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,879 S18: make it accessible to somebody who doesn't maybe have a 539 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,000 S18: whole lot of time to, to read extensively and then, 540 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,000 S18: you know, keep going on the same narrative as such. 541 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,480 S18: And just so that was that was the 30 and 542 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,760 S18: just it's that encouraging, that convicting that that challenging, um, 543 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,160 S18: these were moments that I knew over time they did something. 544 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,960 S18: And I knew that that the Christian church and Christians 545 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,440 S18: more broadly might be able to benefit from these. 546 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,479 S1: Wow, wow. And we're the better for it. Thank you 547 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,680 S1: for that. And I love the idea of doing one 548 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,280 S1: a day. Just let it. You know, you don't want 549 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:00,920 S1: to speed through this. You don't have to speed dial 550 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,080 S1: through any of this. Take your time to understand if 551 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,919 S1: I can. Mark, let me point out also something you 552 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,520 S1: do in every chapter. And by the way, thank you 553 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,479 S1: for the graphics that you included. I think those are 554 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,240 S1: great supportive, uh, bits of information as well. But you 555 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:16,650 S1: break each chapter into the background the moment the We'll 556 00:28:16,650 --> 00:28:18,730 S1: talk about that in a second and further readings. And 557 00:28:18,730 --> 00:28:21,689 S1: there's as exemplified by anybody who's a chair of the department, 558 00:28:21,690 --> 00:28:23,649 S1: there are gazillion footnotes in this if you want to 559 00:28:23,650 --> 00:28:26,369 S1: do a deeper dive, which is terrific. Um, talk to me. 560 00:28:26,410 --> 00:28:29,770 S1: A great, wonderful Greek word mathema basically means here's what 561 00:28:29,770 --> 00:28:32,810 S1: you need to know. So explain why did you do 562 00:28:32,810 --> 00:28:35,490 S1: the four breakups like that? Because for me, that made 563 00:28:35,490 --> 00:28:37,970 S1: it so digestible as I'm taking in this history. 564 00:28:38,970 --> 00:28:41,450 S18: Yes. Um, one of the, one of the things I 565 00:28:41,450 --> 00:28:44,330 S18: did with these, uh, the material, uh, before I turned 566 00:28:44,330 --> 00:28:46,170 S18: it into a book form is I taught it in 567 00:28:46,170 --> 00:28:48,890 S18: a church Sunday school class. Oh, cool. And, uh, so 568 00:28:48,930 --> 00:28:52,210 S18: that's that's where I worked out, really, the rhythm of that, 569 00:28:52,250 --> 00:28:55,570 S18: you know, the the background, given the whole context. Um, 570 00:28:55,610 --> 00:28:57,410 S18: and then, you know, delving in on what happened at 571 00:28:57,450 --> 00:29:00,330 S18: that moment and then the mathema so that that sort 572 00:29:00,330 --> 00:29:05,010 S18: of emerged as a sort of a Christian education, uh, adult, uh, 573 00:29:05,210 --> 00:29:06,969 S18: Sunday school. Oh, no, it wasn't just adult. It was 574 00:29:06,970 --> 00:29:09,610 S18: also some, you know, some teenagers and some some younger ones. 575 00:29:09,850 --> 00:29:12,130 S18: And so it emerged as a way over time that 576 00:29:12,130 --> 00:29:14,450 S18: I thought this, this really held the attention well of 577 00:29:14,450 --> 00:29:17,460 S18: a broad range of people. I wasn't speaking in a 578 00:29:17,460 --> 00:29:19,820 S18: Sunday school class just to college students. Right? I had 579 00:29:19,820 --> 00:29:22,260 S18: people from a broad range who, uh, you know, desired 580 00:29:22,260 --> 00:29:25,420 S18: to know about Christian history. Um, and so that was 581 00:29:25,420 --> 00:29:28,900 S18: that was the way I chose with those those three moments. Uh, 582 00:29:28,900 --> 00:29:32,260 S18: the three or the three division. But I guess the 583 00:29:32,260 --> 00:29:35,180 S18: the fun part maybe, uh, and there's a real battle 584 00:29:35,180 --> 00:29:38,140 S18: over this for, in my own mind with the, the mathima. Okay, 585 00:29:38,220 --> 00:29:40,459 S18: so as you say, it's a Greek term, uh, we 586 00:29:40,500 --> 00:29:43,860 S18: get our word mathematics from it, but it it means, uh, yeah, 587 00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:45,740 S18: that which is learned or that which is learned. That 588 00:29:45,740 --> 00:29:48,740 S18: lesson that we learned from something. And I was I 589 00:29:48,740 --> 00:29:51,340 S18: didn't want to put the word lesson there because lesson 590 00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:53,860 S18: looks to me like a little bit heavy handed. Uh, 591 00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:55,580 S18: so I didn't want to use the, you know, to 592 00:29:55,580 --> 00:29:57,980 S18: give the, the background the moment and then the lesson. 593 00:29:58,260 --> 00:30:01,739 S18: And so I thought the word mathima, uh, if one 594 00:30:01,740 --> 00:30:03,540 S18: is interested in looking into it, they can see, you know, 595 00:30:03,580 --> 00:30:05,140 S18: what can be learned from this moment, what can we 596 00:30:05,140 --> 00:30:07,940 S18: take away from it? And so I wanted I wanted 597 00:30:07,940 --> 00:30:09,700 S18: that to be something other than the moral of the 598 00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:12,380 S18: story or the lesson. Um, those just seem to be 599 00:30:12,380 --> 00:30:14,920 S18: a little bit too pedantic and I. But I love 600 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,800 S18: the feel of mathema. Once, once somebody sort of enters 601 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,000 S18: into the meaning of the term. 602 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,160 S1: I do too. And I also think it's it's reflects 603 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,160 S1: back on you because the mathema says something about you 604 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,560 S1: and why you chose it as one of the 30 605 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,840 S1: moments in history. So I thank you for that. Well, 606 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,320 S1: I'm going to get email if I don't talk about 607 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,760 S1: some of these moments. So I've picked just a couple 608 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,760 S1: because there are 30 friends. Okay. Let me remind you, 609 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,040 S1: there are 30 here. I think it's important we understand 610 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,400 S1: who Justin Martyr is. Uh, tell me his background, because 611 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,040 S1: I think who he was, where he came from and 612 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,600 S1: who he became was fascinating. And why he is very 613 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,000 S1: important to church history. 614 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,200 S18: Yes. Yeah. So, uh, so I sometimes get a good 615 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,760 S18: laugh in classes when students think that martyr must have 616 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,480 S18: been his last name. It wasn't. Okay, that's a that's 617 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,239 S18: a common one. They're like, wait, we didn't get the 618 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,560 S18: word martyr from Justin. Yeah. No, no, Justin Martyr got 619 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,080 S18: the name martyr because of his witness for Christ and 620 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,480 S18: ultimately the price he paid for it. And so here's 621 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,450 S18: a here's a guy who is, um, converted to Christianity 622 00:31:13,770 --> 00:31:17,210 S18: a bit later in life. And so he goes through 623 00:31:17,210 --> 00:31:21,050 S18: a whole series of stages. So you see him as 624 00:31:21,050 --> 00:31:23,850 S18: he tells his own story, which survives for us to, to, 625 00:31:23,890 --> 00:31:27,690 S18: to read. He goes from one philosophical school to another, 626 00:31:27,690 --> 00:31:30,650 S18: looking for the truth, looking for meaning of life questions, 627 00:31:30,650 --> 00:31:33,890 S18: looking for the answer. And then he tells us so poignantly. 628 00:31:33,890 --> 00:31:36,690 S18: One time along the sea, an old man comes up 629 00:31:36,690 --> 00:31:38,890 S18: to him and he just says. He says he opens 630 00:31:38,890 --> 00:31:41,810 S18: up the scriptures to him. Right. So here's a man, 631 00:31:41,810 --> 00:31:45,610 S18: Justin Martyr, a Roman who's been asking these questions, trying 632 00:31:45,610 --> 00:31:48,410 S18: to find the answer. And it's this wonderful moment where 633 00:31:48,410 --> 00:31:51,010 S18: this man comes up and opens up the scriptures to him. 634 00:31:51,330 --> 00:31:55,890 S18: And we have a dramatic conversion with, uh, with Justin. 635 00:31:56,250 --> 00:31:59,770 S18: And so, um, then he spends, uh, you know, he 636 00:31:59,810 --> 00:32:02,210 S18: he writes a good bit. He's a, he writes a 637 00:32:02,210 --> 00:32:05,010 S18: work called The Apology. Several works called The Apology or 638 00:32:05,010 --> 00:32:08,010 S18: The Defence of the Faith. And, um, but he's a 639 00:32:08,010 --> 00:32:11,510 S18: fascinating figure in that. We often say that he's the 640 00:32:11,510 --> 00:32:15,230 S18: father of apologetics, a certain type of defense of the faith. 641 00:32:15,670 --> 00:32:17,350 S18: And so, as you know, one of the things I'm 642 00:32:17,350 --> 00:32:20,150 S18: trying to to, to present in that is there's nothing 643 00:32:20,150 --> 00:32:23,590 S18: really fancy about what he does. He takes the culture 644 00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:27,390 S18: of his time in how to answer big questions and 645 00:32:27,390 --> 00:32:32,550 S18: challenges and injustices being committed against Christians. And he pursues 646 00:32:32,550 --> 00:32:36,430 S18: what would be a acceptable, normal way of trying to 647 00:32:36,430 --> 00:32:42,430 S18: challenge some misconceptions and false accusations. And so what I 648 00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:44,270 S18: what I really like about him and what I, what 649 00:32:44,270 --> 00:32:47,750 S18: I wanted to to highlight in this is, um, he's 650 00:32:47,790 --> 00:32:51,110 S18: it's this is not sort of high end philosophy just 651 00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:54,110 S18: for the few. Right. Here's a man who is is 652 00:32:54,150 --> 00:32:58,790 S18: speaking to to, you know, fellow Romans encouraging fellow Christians, um, 653 00:32:58,910 --> 00:33:01,310 S18: and uh, so and using the, you know, the tools 654 00:33:01,310 --> 00:33:02,910 S18: that he has available to him at the time to 655 00:33:02,910 --> 00:33:07,390 S18: do this. And ultimately, he dies a martyr's death for his, uh, 656 00:33:07,390 --> 00:33:10,040 S18: for his, um, defense of the faith and his witness 657 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,080 S18: for the faith. But an absolutely fascinating character. And, um, yeah. 658 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,960 S18: So that's that's the, we'll say, the bigger picture of 659 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:17,800 S18: who he was. 660 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,440 S1: Brilliant. Now, some might say, well, wait, you didn't you 661 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,840 S1: weren't born with the last name martyr that was subscribed 662 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,440 S1: to you because of what happened to you in the 663 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,160 S1: course of history. And some might say, well, if he 664 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,880 S1: was writing the apology and going right to the core 665 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:31,680 S1: of Scripture, being prepared to give a reason for the 666 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,040 S1: hope that resides within you, and he ends up losing 667 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,320 S1: his life, wouldn't that mean deductive reasoning that his apologetic 668 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,120 S1: wasn't very good because he didn't convince anybody he lost 669 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:41,520 S1: his life? Talk to me about that. 670 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,760 S18: Okay. Yeah. You know, one of the things that apologists 671 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,360 S18: through time have had to face is the reality that 672 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,000 S18: their works are read far more by fellow Christians who 673 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,280 S18: are emboldened by their witness and then willing to share. 674 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,480 S18: Then they are by the people that they're actually addressing 675 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,160 S18: them to. So we've got a whole tradition after Justin 676 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,170 S18: Martyr of Christians writing letters to emperors. Uh, you know, 677 00:34:09,210 --> 00:34:11,210 S18: we are not the criminals you say we are. Right. 678 00:34:11,250 --> 00:34:14,890 S18: We're not doing these outrageous acts in secret or otherwise, 679 00:34:14,890 --> 00:34:17,450 S18: that you say we are. But in the end, I 680 00:34:17,450 --> 00:34:20,089 S18: think that apologists have often had to come to terms 681 00:34:20,090 --> 00:34:23,489 S18: with the fact that often the world out there is 682 00:34:23,489 --> 00:34:28,370 S18: not necessarily listening to them, but their works nonetheless can 683 00:34:28,370 --> 00:34:31,410 S18: be very encouraging to other Christians who are then able 684 00:34:31,410 --> 00:34:33,489 S18: to then to take the bold witness of this and 685 00:34:33,489 --> 00:34:35,250 S18: share it on a one on one basis with people 686 00:34:35,250 --> 00:34:38,010 S18: that they know, people they come in contact with. So 687 00:34:38,050 --> 00:34:42,650 S18: it's a it's one of those, um, you know, almost paradoxical, uh, 688 00:34:42,730 --> 00:34:46,890 S18: facts about apologists is how encouraging they've been to the 689 00:34:46,890 --> 00:34:48,930 S18: church through time, how heartening they've been to the church 690 00:34:48,930 --> 00:34:53,690 S18: through time, even as they're so, so strongly wanting to 691 00:34:53,690 --> 00:34:56,210 S18: address the world at large. And they do write letters 692 00:34:56,210 --> 00:34:58,610 S18: to the world at large. They do publish these, uh, 693 00:34:58,610 --> 00:35:01,450 S18: as he did as Justin Martyr's apology is presented as 694 00:35:01,489 --> 00:35:03,450 S18: a he takes it right to the court of the 695 00:35:03,450 --> 00:35:06,989 S18: Emperor himself. It's addressed to the emperor, but Christians have 696 00:35:06,989 --> 00:35:09,510 S18: copies of it, and they're inspired by this to keep, 697 00:35:09,710 --> 00:35:12,310 S18: keep on keeping on in the midst of persecution, in 698 00:35:12,310 --> 00:35:14,230 S18: the midst of difficulties and struggles. 699 00:35:14,270 --> 00:35:16,830 S1: Wow, what a great way to think about that. Raises 700 00:35:16,830 --> 00:35:19,990 S1: the question. It was musical chairs for the emperors of Rome. 701 00:35:19,989 --> 00:35:23,270 S1: Why the marked historic animus against Christians? Where did that 702 00:35:23,270 --> 00:35:23,790 S1: come from? 703 00:35:24,750 --> 00:35:27,710 S18: Yeah, that's a that is a huge and fascinating and 704 00:35:27,710 --> 00:35:31,469 S18: very difficult question. I mean, the, um, one could answer 705 00:35:31,469 --> 00:35:32,910 S18: that in a lot of ways. I mean, the way 706 00:35:32,910 --> 00:35:36,270 S18: that I've come to myself with, um, 20 well, almost 707 00:35:36,270 --> 00:35:39,110 S18: 30 years now of studying these, you know, these specific 708 00:35:39,150 --> 00:35:42,910 S18: type of questions. I mean, there were some basic ways 709 00:35:42,910 --> 00:35:48,830 S18: in which Christians were just fundamentally countercultural to Romans, and 710 00:35:48,830 --> 00:35:52,950 S18: the Romans just could not understand. Let's just take, for example, 711 00:35:53,390 --> 00:35:56,270 S18: when Christ says, let the greatest among you. 712 00:35:56,310 --> 00:35:56,710 S1: I think I've. 713 00:35:56,710 --> 00:35:57,750 S18: Lost him who serves. 714 00:35:57,790 --> 00:35:58,950 S1: Me. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going 715 00:35:58,950 --> 00:36:00,390 S1: to take a break, and then we're going to come 716 00:36:00,390 --> 00:36:02,550 S1: back because we'll reconnect with him so we can continue 717 00:36:02,550 --> 00:36:06,640 S1: our conversation. Fascinating conversation with Mark Graham, by the way, 718 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,200 S1: who is the chair of the history department of Grove 719 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,960 S1: City College? He joins us today as the author of 720 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,400 S1: an absolutely fascinating book. I find history fascinating because it's 721 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,440 S1: our story, by the way. It may have happened a thousand, 722 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,840 S1: 2000 years ago, but it's very much our history as 723 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,520 S1: the church and how the gospel continues to spread the 724 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,240 S1: price that people paid, the impact it had on governments 725 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,120 S1: as well as individuals. The book is called 30 Key 726 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,120 S1: Moments in the History of Christianity inspiring true stories from 727 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,960 S1: the early church around the world. We're going to continue 728 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:55,319 S1: with that Roman Empire question when we return. 30 key 729 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,759 S1: moments in the history of Christianity inspiring true stories from 730 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,480 S1: the early church around the world. That's the brand new 731 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,140 S1: book by Mark Graham, who is the chair of the 732 00:37:03,140 --> 00:37:06,700 S1: history department at Grove City College. Absolutely fascinating. So a 733 00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:09,060 S1: question on the table, and I so appreciate your helping 734 00:37:09,060 --> 00:37:11,940 S1: us to understand that this is a monstrously huge question, 735 00:37:11,940 --> 00:37:14,779 S1: but I think it is fascinating because we see this 736 00:37:14,780 --> 00:37:17,900 S1: reflected obviously, when we read the scriptures, you know, as 737 00:37:17,980 --> 00:37:20,299 S1: Paul is writing, how many couple of his epistles from 738 00:37:20,300 --> 00:37:22,700 S1: prison in Rome and he knows that his head is 739 00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:25,020 S1: going to be separated from his shoulders. So this is 740 00:37:25,020 --> 00:37:28,140 S1: representative of what was happening under Nero's watch. But if 741 00:37:28,180 --> 00:37:31,060 S1: you would mark, just again, for people to understand this, 742 00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:33,980 S1: you know, the if you study who the emperors were, 743 00:37:34,020 --> 00:37:38,739 S1: it's a history of madness and demonic behavior and narcissism 744 00:37:38,900 --> 00:37:42,500 S1: times ten. So why were the Christians in particular the 745 00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:43,660 S1: object of their disdain? 746 00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:46,219 S18: Yeah, yeah. And I think just to I mean, we 747 00:37:46,219 --> 00:37:49,419 S18: could just start also with just the, the, the way 748 00:37:49,420 --> 00:37:53,779 S18: that the Romans saw the, these Caesars, these emperors as gods. Right. 749 00:37:53,820 --> 00:37:56,620 S18: And so and the so the Christians would not and 750 00:37:56,620 --> 00:38:00,259 S18: refuse to give the homage. They would give respect, they 751 00:38:00,260 --> 00:38:02,750 S18: would give the their honor that they thought was due, 752 00:38:02,750 --> 00:38:05,190 S18: but they would never bow the knee to the emperors. 753 00:38:05,190 --> 00:38:07,310 S18: But so that's one aspect. But the other one, I 754 00:38:07,310 --> 00:38:10,350 S18: think is, you know, where Christ says he who is 755 00:38:10,350 --> 00:38:13,469 S18: greatest among you, let him be as your servant. The 756 00:38:13,469 --> 00:38:15,910 S18: Romans understand the world to be. Let he who is 757 00:38:15,910 --> 00:38:18,790 S18: greatest among you make sure everybody knows that that person 758 00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:22,670 S18: is the greatest among you. Where Paul says, outdo each 759 00:38:22,670 --> 00:38:25,390 S18: other and showing honor to each other. Outdo each other 760 00:38:25,390 --> 00:38:28,750 S18: in showing honor. The Romans said, um, you are the 761 00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:32,070 S18: most important person is going to have honor heaped upon them, 762 00:38:32,350 --> 00:38:34,950 S18: and they're going to be outshining others with honor. There's 763 00:38:35,070 --> 00:38:37,870 S18: it's so odd and so foreign to say outdo others 764 00:38:37,870 --> 00:38:40,670 S18: and showing honor to others. And so I think that 765 00:38:40,670 --> 00:38:43,910 S18: Christians are just very I mean, they're extremely odd to 766 00:38:44,230 --> 00:38:47,469 S18: to to the Romans then I mean, the you read 767 00:38:47,469 --> 00:38:51,510 S18: the story of Perpetua, the famous martyr Perpetua, which, uh, Jane, 768 00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:53,029 S18: I don't know about you, but it's, um, it was 769 00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:54,989 S18: hard enough to write it without tears. I don't know, 770 00:38:55,030 --> 00:38:57,710 S18: I can imagine even to read it, as, you know, 771 00:38:57,750 --> 00:39:01,290 S18: the tears. And so here's a married woman, uh, has 772 00:39:01,290 --> 00:39:05,330 S18: a young child. And according to Roman tradition, she is 773 00:39:05,330 --> 00:39:08,569 S18: under the absolute rule of her father, still her father. 774 00:39:08,570 --> 00:39:10,770 S18: And so whatever her father tells her to do to 775 00:39:10,810 --> 00:39:12,850 S18: a Roman, she was supposed to do that. Or she 776 00:39:12,850 --> 00:39:16,609 S18: was a rebellious daughter. And her father tells her, Perpetua, 777 00:39:16,610 --> 00:39:20,170 S18: renounce the faith. Do not, do not do you know, 778 00:39:20,210 --> 00:39:22,770 S18: do not claim the name of Christ. And she says 779 00:39:22,770 --> 00:39:24,770 S18: to him, she says she's in a prison cell, and 780 00:39:24,770 --> 00:39:26,850 S18: she points to a flower pot across the you know, 781 00:39:26,890 --> 00:39:29,210 S18: they can see through a window. And she says, father, 782 00:39:29,210 --> 00:39:31,169 S18: do you see that flower pot? And he says, yes. 783 00:39:31,170 --> 00:39:33,169 S18: She said, that flower pot can be nothing other than 784 00:39:33,170 --> 00:39:35,850 S18: what it is, a flower pot. I can be nothing 785 00:39:35,890 --> 00:39:39,450 S18: other than a Christian, right? And so that is what 786 00:39:39,489 --> 00:39:43,009 S18: the Romans could never understand, is how here we have 787 00:39:43,010 --> 00:39:46,610 S18: a daughter who's going to go against Roman tradition, defy 788 00:39:46,650 --> 00:39:51,330 S18: her father's orders to defy Christ. Right. Uh, and to 789 00:39:51,370 --> 00:39:54,290 S18: to to deny Christ. And she refuses to do so. 790 00:39:54,290 --> 00:39:56,969 S18: So all of these collectively, there's a whole lot more. 791 00:39:57,010 --> 00:39:58,820 S18: I mean, this is a question that would take us 792 00:39:58,860 --> 00:40:00,580 S18: a long, a lot more than the hour itself that 793 00:40:00,580 --> 00:40:03,060 S18: we have here. But I think just to and I 794 00:40:03,180 --> 00:40:06,460 S18: try to sort of, um, sort of present that in 795 00:40:06,460 --> 00:40:10,419 S18: several of these chapters, especially the Perpetua chapter where, um, yeah, 796 00:40:10,420 --> 00:40:13,780 S18: there's something fundamentally at odds with the message that Christ 797 00:40:13,780 --> 00:40:21,180 S18: is giving. And the Romans see the Christians as inhuman, subhuman, odd, bizarre, 798 00:40:21,420 --> 00:40:23,900 S18: and worthy of worthy and so many times of death 799 00:40:23,900 --> 00:40:26,779 S18: worthy of of being removed from the body politic. 800 00:40:27,219 --> 00:40:29,300 S1: But if you can try to crawl into the skin 801 00:40:29,340 --> 00:40:32,700 S1: of an emperor, and you are watching these people like Perpetua, 802 00:40:32,940 --> 00:40:35,460 S1: who will not deny Christ, who's willing to even stand 803 00:40:35,460 --> 00:40:38,500 S1: against her father, I'm glad that you talked about Patria Protesta. 804 00:40:38,540 --> 00:40:40,299 S1: I mean, all of these rules that they had to 805 00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:44,140 S1: play the father hugely important role in Roman culture. So 806 00:40:44,140 --> 00:40:46,580 S1: she says, no, I'm not going to deny Christ. She's 807 00:40:46,580 --> 00:40:49,219 S1: got a brand new baby. She's breastfeeding her baby, for 808 00:40:49,219 --> 00:40:52,140 S1: goodness sakes. So what do what do you think? If 809 00:40:52,140 --> 00:40:54,020 S1: you're trying to look at the world through a Nero 810 00:40:54,020 --> 00:40:56,950 S1: or Caligula, why? Why would you say what is. I mean, 811 00:40:56,950 --> 00:40:59,470 S1: I hate these people, but I can't convince them otherwise. 812 00:40:59,469 --> 00:41:01,350 S1: Even though the lions are going to tear them limb 813 00:41:01,350 --> 00:41:03,950 S1: by limb, you're going to be gored by a wild bull. 814 00:41:03,989 --> 00:41:06,150 S1: You're going to fight gladiators. You're going to end up 815 00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:09,230 S1: being dying by the sword. But the they won't recant. 816 00:41:09,230 --> 00:41:11,270 S1: That's got to get your attention when you're alone in 817 00:41:11,270 --> 00:41:11,790 S1: your room. 818 00:41:12,510 --> 00:41:15,870 S18: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I mean, what you what you 819 00:41:15,870 --> 00:41:19,069 S18: do see with the, with the emperors is as Romans, 820 00:41:19,070 --> 00:41:22,310 S18: they prided themselves on bringing the blessings of peace and 821 00:41:22,310 --> 00:41:26,910 S18: prosperity and, you know, a success. All these things to Romans. 822 00:41:27,790 --> 00:41:30,589 S18: And when they see some who are not accepting it 823 00:41:30,590 --> 00:41:34,109 S18: in the way they want them to accept it and Revere, 824 00:41:34,150 --> 00:41:36,430 S18: worship the Emperor as they want the emperor. The emperor 825 00:41:36,430 --> 00:41:40,390 S18: to do so. That's you know, these these people are 826 00:41:40,830 --> 00:41:44,710 S18: are neglecting and rejecting the wonderful gift that the Romans 827 00:41:44,750 --> 00:41:47,950 S18: see themselves as giving to them. How dare they? How 828 00:41:47,989 --> 00:41:48,950 S18: dare they? Yeah. 829 00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:52,430 S1: Wow. Amazing. All right. Again, there's a thousand years of 830 00:41:52,430 --> 00:41:55,330 S1: history that Mark covers. He picks three key moments out 831 00:41:55,330 --> 00:41:56,930 S1: of this, but it's a thousand years. So let me 832 00:41:56,930 --> 00:42:00,730 S1: just fast forward because we were lingering in the Roman Empire. 833 00:42:00,730 --> 00:42:04,810 S1: When you talk about Perpetua, for example, um, you're in 834 00:42:05,370 --> 00:42:08,650 S1: Carthage 203. Okay, that's the year. Let me fast forward 835 00:42:08,650 --> 00:42:13,130 S1: to 635 and let me go to China. I love this. 836 00:42:13,290 --> 00:42:15,930 S1: So the earlier followers of the church are called the 837 00:42:15,930 --> 00:42:19,569 S1: way and the way arrives. I'm show of hands. How 838 00:42:19,570 --> 00:42:21,930 S1: many people would have ever thought the way the gospel 839 00:42:21,930 --> 00:42:25,129 S1: message would have shown up in the Tang dynasty in China? Yes. 840 00:42:25,170 --> 00:42:27,170 S1: I mean, God is not willing that any should perish, 841 00:42:27,170 --> 00:42:28,969 S1: but that all should come to repentance. That's why this 842 00:42:28,969 --> 00:42:31,410 S1: history is so important. So talk to me about the 843 00:42:31,410 --> 00:42:33,930 S1: way and how in the world, particularly when you've got 844 00:42:33,930 --> 00:42:37,730 S1: this dynastic empire. How does the gospel penetrate that? 845 00:42:37,770 --> 00:42:41,010 S18: Yeah, yeah, there's there's two two sides to that. One 846 00:42:41,010 --> 00:42:43,489 S18: is you have a missionary who is a name we 847 00:42:43,489 --> 00:42:46,290 S18: should all know. His name is Alopen. He's one of those, 848 00:42:46,410 --> 00:42:48,850 S18: you know, this is one of the greatest missionaries of 849 00:42:48,850 --> 00:42:54,500 S18: the pre-modern world. Alopen is from Syria. And so, uh, he, uh, 850 00:42:54,500 --> 00:42:57,620 S18: then makes his way along the Silk Road to China, 851 00:42:57,620 --> 00:42:59,779 S18: and he brings copies of the scripture with him. He 852 00:42:59,780 --> 00:43:02,540 S18: brings some some monks and some others sharing the faith 853 00:43:02,540 --> 00:43:04,980 S18: and bringing the faith with him. So as they're bringing 854 00:43:04,980 --> 00:43:08,700 S18: it on the other side, the Emperor himself is welcoming 855 00:43:08,700 --> 00:43:12,460 S18: them and helping fund copies of Scripture. So that's a 856 00:43:12,460 --> 00:43:14,140 S18: real I guess we can come back to that one too. 857 00:43:14,180 --> 00:43:16,300 S18: A very exciting story on how that plays out. 858 00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:18,700 S1: Wow, Mark, this is our last segment. So I got 859 00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:21,180 S1: about 30 more seconds. Can you put a capstone on this? 860 00:43:21,219 --> 00:43:22,180 S1: It's gone far too quickly. 861 00:43:23,140 --> 00:43:25,580 S18: Ah yes okay. So I mean there I'll just just 862 00:43:25,580 --> 00:43:29,500 S18: with that one, you've got the Emperor himself asking the 863 00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:32,700 S18: Christians to come in, helps them copy and pays for 864 00:43:32,700 --> 00:43:36,620 S18: copies of Scripture and translating them into Chinese. And so 865 00:43:36,620 --> 00:43:39,299 S18: we see the powerful spread of the gospel all the 866 00:43:39,300 --> 00:43:40,700 S18: way to the other side of the world. 867 00:43:41,180 --> 00:43:41,980 S1: Unbelievable. 868 00:43:41,980 --> 00:43:43,620 S18: That's the type of thing we see here. Yep. 869 00:43:43,780 --> 00:43:46,180 S1: And you've got a picture that includes. I'm going to 870 00:43:46,180 --> 00:43:47,860 S1: guess it's a graphic of some kind. I don't know 871 00:43:47,860 --> 00:43:51,020 S1: if it's painted on canvas or cloth. Early Chinese Christians 872 00:43:51,020 --> 00:43:54,359 S1: in a Palm Sunday procession. I don't know. You talk 873 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,640 S1: about getting a lump in your throat. Wow. I mean, 874 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:02,080 S1: the gospel is going to change. It's going to change countries, families, individuals, nations, peoples, empires. 875 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,480 S1: And it's not going to be stopped regardless of what 876 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,520 S1: kind of a regime is in power at that time. 877 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,680 S1: But it takes people to bring that message. We fractured 878 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,920 S1: earthen vessels have been given this imperishable message. And the 879 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,160 S1: reason why this history is so important is you read 880 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,520 S1: how those vessels who went before us persevered in good 881 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,319 S1: and bad, and difficult and challenging and ambiguous times. Nonetheless, 882 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,680 S1: they persevered. So in my classroom, you hear me say this, 883 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,200 S1: I'm going to say it again. This would be required reading. 884 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,000 S1: This would be on the syllabus. You'd all have to 885 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,640 S1: read this book. So check it out. It's called 30 886 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,520 S1: Key Moments in the History of Christianity Inspiring True stories 887 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,600 S1: from the early Christian Church around the world. I love 888 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,160 S1: what Mark said before. Read one chapter a day and 889 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,160 S1: learn something about us and our history. God bless you Mark. 890 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,080 S1: Thanks for this. See you next time, friends.