S1: Well, what does it mean to be a man in
S1: today's culture?
S2: I didn't have any anxiety about masculinity stuff until the
S2: social pressure started to hit, and that's a lot of
S2: what I'm hoping to do with this book, is beat
S2: these guys to the punch, right, and help them get
S2: a positive vision so that when they hear those negative examples,
S2: they'll have a counterpoint ready to go.
S1: Welcome to Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S1: The New York Times best seller, The Five Love Languages.
S1: For years, we've heard the accusation that masculinity is toxic.
S1: But pastor and author Seth Trout says authentic masculinity is
S1: rooted in living according to God's design. He'll unpack that
S1: for us today and what it means in marriage and society.
S3: Our featured resource at Building relationships.us is Seth's book, Authentic
S3: Masculinity Leaving Behind the Counterfeits for God's Design. again, find
S3: it at building relationships.us. And I want to turn the
S3: question to you, Gary, as a pastor, as a counselor,
S3: you have seen counterfeit masculinity through the years. How have
S3: you responded to that?
S4: You know, Chris, as soon as you said that, there
S4: came to my mind a visual image of a man
S4: who came into my office a number of years ago,
S4: one of the most muscular men I've ever seen. I mean,
S4: his muscles were just bulging. And he said, Doctor Chapman,
S4: I got a serious problem. My wife just filed for
S4: divorce and he said, I don't know why. So I
S4: listened to him for the next 40 minutes on what
S4: was going on, you know, and I realized this man's
S4: idea of masculinity is muscles. And he spent the bulk
S4: of his time, his free time after work, you know,
S4: working out, working out, working out. So she she felt
S4: like she didn't have a husband. She wasn't leaving him.
S4: She didn't have one. She was just acknowledging what is. Unfortunately,
S4: I was not able to help them really come to
S4: a conclusion that I had hoped would happen. But, uh,
S4: she had felt so neglected for so many years that
S4: she just, uh, you know, wasn't willing to, to work
S4: on the marriage. So yeah, people have different ideas on
S4: what it means to be masculine. Uh, that was just
S4: one example, but, uh, this book is going to be
S4: helpful to a lot of folks. And I am really
S4: excited about our conversation today.
S3: Well, let's meet pastor and author Doctor Seth Trout. He
S3: is the teaching pastor at Ironwood Church in the Phoenix
S3: metro area. He's been pastoring full time since 2011, holds
S3: a doctorate focused on digital technology, Gen Z, and gender identity.
S3: He's an alumnus of Arizona State University, Phoenix Seminary, and
S3: Covenant Seminary. Seth and his wife have been married since 2013.
S3: They have two children, and his latest book is our
S3: Featured resource at Building relationships.us. Authentic Masculinity Leaving behind the
S3: Counterfeits for God's design. Again, go to Building relationships.us.
S4: Well, Pastor Trout, welcome to Building Relationships.
S2: Thanks for having me on. It's a real treat to
S2: get to talk about masculinity with you all.
S4: There must be something you saw as a pastor and
S4: father that made you want to write about this topic
S4: of authentic masculinity. Tell us about it. What motivated you?
S2: You know that story you shared earlier about the kind
S2: of muscle oriented masculinity resonates? You know, I meet a
S2: lot of guys at the gym who are non Christians
S2: who think that testosterone equals masculinity, and that's kind of
S2: where their list ends. And they're really locked into that
S2: type of stereotypical vision. I simultaneously talked to a lot
S2: of younger guys who are not motivated in their life.
S2: They understand that the love of money is the root
S2: of all kinds of evil, but they're just kind of
S2: stuck in this malaise, slothful existence. What hill should I
S2: try to climb? What should I work hard at? What
S2: does it mean to do the best I can with
S2: my life? And so there's kind of an aimlessness. Like
S2: they don't know what the bulls eye is, so they
S2: don't even shoot. They don't know what the goal is,
S2: so they don't strive. But the real reason that I
S2: got into this masculinity stuff was there was a church
S2: with a lot of college students a couple miles from ours,
S2: right by Arizona State University. We're probably about 30 minutes
S2: away from there. And they said, hey, can you come
S2: and talk on this toxic masculinity thing? There's this famous
S2: guy named Andrew Tate who recommends that men get strong,
S2: stop smoking weed, work hard, and then also says things like,
S2: marriage is a trap designed by feminists to keep men domesticated.
S2: And you should basically go out and have kids with
S2: as many women as possible. And the divorce laws favor women.
S2: Society's favored against men. And like half of what he says,
S2: I'm like, yes, move out of your mom's basement. Don't
S2: smoke weed, work really hard. And the other half is
S2: just a baptism of the desires of the flesh. But
S2: he's been the masculinity influencer that a lot of Gen
S2: Zers have bought into. And so this guy, this pastor
S2: locally said, can you come talk on masculinity? And I
S2: thought I would love to. And that's kind of what
S2: got me thinking deeply and praying deeply about younger men
S2: in particular. And the men in my congregation are audience zero.
S2: But beyond that, I just see a real need for
S2: the church to cast a positive vision, not just to
S2: critique what is negative in the culture, but to cast
S2: a more compelling vision for God's design for men.
S4: Well, I certainly agree that is definitely needed in today's culture.
S4: Now you begin the book with stories about when you
S4: were younger and were told to be a man. What
S4: were you being told about manhood at that age?
S2: Here, the first time I got challenged to be a man,
S2: I was playing video games at a friend's house in
S2: fifth grade and he said, hey, come, you want to
S2: see some porn? And at that point, I didn't even
S2: know what that was. But I could tell based on
S2: how he was saying it, that I probably shouldn't want
S2: to do that. You know, I had two attentive, caring
S2: parents who they weren't really insecure about gender or anything
S2: like that. You know, my dad's a P.E. teacher, my
S2: mom's a preschool teacher. They were pretty warm and connected.
S2: And so I kind of knew, this is not good.
S2: I shouldn't do it. I don't know what it is.
S2: You know, the I had a gut instinct of. And
S2: I said, no thanks. And he said, oh, come on,
S2: be a man. And I thought, well, I don't want
S2: to be a woman. I don't want to be a child.
S2: So I better say yes. And that was my first
S2: exposure to pornography. Was that insecurity there. And then other
S2: little stories that begin to shape my assumption about what
S2: men should want, what men should do. I remember being
S2: in middle school at basketball tryouts, and the guys were
S2: doing pull ups on the basketball rim, and I couldn't
S2: do it. And someone said, oh, be a man, fatty,
S2: you know? And that was my first experience of not
S2: liking my body. You know, my my strength, feeling weak
S2: other times, having discipleship leaders in the church telling me
S2: to be a man and do my reading, you know,
S2: and that's not really a negative example as much as
S2: an additional example. But the main thing all those have
S2: in common were their shameful experiences of feeling like I
S2: didn't belong, feeling like I wasn't good enough, feeling like
S2: I needed to do X, Y, and Z to be
S2: accepted and loved by this community and that kind of sexual, responsible,
S2: strong and be this kind of caricature. Otherwise you're not
S2: a man really stuck with me and affected my mind,
S2: and I didn't have any anxiety about masculinity stuff until
S2: the social pressure started to hit. And that's a lot
S2: of what I'm hoping to do with this book, is
S2: beat these guys to the punch, right? And help them
S2: get a positive vision so that when they hear those
S2: negative examples, they'll have a counterpoint ready to go.
S4: Yeah. Yeah. So important. Boy, I think this book's going
S4: to really help young men. Where should men look to
S4: best understand masculinity that thrives in obedience to God?
S2: I think what's been most helpful in my own journey,
S2: but also in discipling other guys, has been really looking
S2: closely at what Adam was supposed to do versus what
S2: Adam did do in Genesis one, two, and three. There's
S2: a lot there that's compelling in terms of a man's role,
S2: a man's passivity, a man's failure. But then going to
S2: the second Adam, the final Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ,
S2: and seeing all the ways that Jesus is the anti Adam,
S2: the final Adam, the Redeemer of all the men who
S2: have been like Adam and are like Adam. And so
S2: I do think that biblical masculinity is not really a
S2: type of masculinity, but it is the true vision of masculinity.
S2: And I think that the biblical story is actually really
S2: compelling and helps guys get a vision for what it
S2: looks like to be a Christ like man who is
S2: not an Adam like man. And I think that compare
S2: and contrast has been a really helpful resource in terms
S2: of forming and discipling young men on terms of what
S2: they want to be like and do.
S4: Well, Seth, you outline a masculinity pyramid in the book.
S4: Can you walk us through that diagram and give us
S4: an overview of the masculine virtues?
S2: Yeah, this is actually the part of the book that
S2: I'm the most proud of. You know, I like the
S2: whole book. I wrote it, my name's on it, etc.
S2: but this structure has been what's been most useful and
S2: even helping disciple my son who is six. And it
S2: really kind of begins through a handful of negations. So
S2: the bottom layer of the pyramid is that man is
S2: not God. And that sounds obvious, but a lot of
S2: guys don't get how significant that is. That man is
S2: not God. He is a creature that he's finite. He's limited.
S2: He's located in that God designed him and that we actually,
S2: if we want to be sober minded, have to submit
S2: our idea of what it means to be a man
S2: to God's idea of what it means to be a man.
S2: And so that bottom layer of the pyramid is man
S2: is not God. Therefore he must be humble or he
S2: should have humility. And that humility is really rooted in
S2: the creature creator distinction. But then on top of that,
S2: out of Genesis one through three, you get the gospel
S2: story of the fact that we're not just humble because
S2: we're creatures, but we're humble because we're sinful creatures who
S2: require grace, that we must be blessed by God if
S2: we are going to be anything. And so that's the
S2: bottom layer. It kind of makes me think about Matthew five.
S2: Blessed are the poor in spirit that we come to
S2: God with humility, submitting to his designs and recognizing that
S2: we're indebted to his grace. Then the next layer up
S2: is that man is not an animal that. Okay, so
S2: creator creature distinction, but mankind is fundamentally different than the
S2: rest of the creatures that we are made in God's image.
S2: We're moral creatures. We have vision and purpose, self reflectiveness,
S2: and we have this capacity to rightly order our desires
S2: that animals are governed by instincts and desires, but mankind
S2: can be governed by vision and submission and and goals
S2: and dreams and purpose. And so man is not an animal.
S2: So he has to have discipline or be disciplined, that
S2: we discipline our desires, we discipline our bodies, we order
S2: our loves. And downstream from that we find discipline, right?
S2: So if I want to eat six donuts for breakfast,
S2: but more than that, I want to be an attentive,
S2: hardworking employee who doesn't have a stomach ache. Then I
S2: say no to the lesser desire in favor of the
S2: greater desire. And so that's a discipline. Then you layer
S2: up from that is that man is not a child.
S2: He's responsible. And so responsibility. This is the opposite of
S2: what Adam does in the garden. When he sins and
S2: is confronted by God. He says, that woman you gave me.
S2: He blamed shifts. That's childish behavior. He blames the context.
S2: He blames the environment. You know, grown men will blame
S2: their lust on what the woman was wearing or their blame,
S2: their fit of rage on the fact that their five
S2: year old wasn't listening to them. And they blame, blame, blame.
S2: Whereas when we embrace responsibility, we own ourselves. We recognize
S2: that self conquest is part of our, uh, the task
S2: of masculinity. And then the final layer, the top one
S2: is what I've called chivalry. That man is not woman.
S2: So be chivalrous. And I like that old word because
S2: it's masculine coded, but it also has to do with honor.
S2: And I get that from first Peter three seven, which
S2: says that husbands are to live with their wives and
S2: understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel,
S2: and that Peter roots that in the vessel the the
S2: body difference that because man is stronger, he has this
S2: additional responsibility to understand and honor his wife. And so
S2: that masculinity pyramid is humility, discipline, responsibility and chivalry. And
S2: I do think that, you know, those first three layers
S2: we have in common with females. And I think that
S2: some of what I want to emphasize is that there's
S2: a danger in overemphasizing the male female difference, but there's
S2: also danger under emphasizing it like the progressive left has done.
S2: But when Adam sees even the garden, his reaction is
S2: bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. Finally, one
S2: who corresponds to me. And so I think when we
S2: understand the the lower levels of the pyramid first, that
S2: then frees us up to engage the discussion about chivalry.
S2: And we now carry our strength with humility, discipline, and responsibility.
S2: And that leads us to honor the other vessel, the
S2: other sex.
S4: I think that pyramid is going to help a lot
S4: of folks, uh, in distinguishing, you know what this is
S4: all about. Uh, we'll talk about some of those later
S4: in the program. Obviously has the label of toxic masculinity, uh,
S4: harmed how men express emotion or reject anything that that resembles, uh,
S4: you know, some stereotype.
S2: Yeah. I think the, the discourse around toxic masculinity really
S2: misses the mark because toxicity is about excess, right? You
S2: can drink too much water and get water poisoning. You
S2: can also have a toxic level of fentanyl at a
S2: much smaller doses. And so some of like the chauvinist
S2: or misogynistic or womanizing type men you see get labeled toxic, masculine,
S2: as though their problem is that they're excessively masculine. And
S2: I think that totally misses the mark. I think they're
S2: actually insufficiently masculine, that they're anemic. They're not toxic, that
S2: they lack humility, discipline, responsibility and chivalry. And so rather
S2: than warning men about toxic masculinity, I'd much rather warn
S2: them about anemic masculinity. The abdication, the passivity, the haughtiness,
S2: the lack of capacity to honor the other. And I
S2: do think that part of what you're seeing in culture
S2: is a reaction to the liberalism that tried to feminize
S2: women and kind of promote this interchangeability of the sexes.
S2: And there's kind of this resurgence, especially among Gen Z,
S2: towards moving back to that old masculine stereotype of men
S2: don't have emotions, men suppress them, and men don't need
S2: friends and men don't need connection. And so I do
S2: think there is a flip flop thing happening in culture
S2: where this new promotion of kind of the the John
S2: Wayne cowboy type masculinity that's really incongruent with the person
S2: of Jesus who has compassion and his gut and weeps
S2: at the womb of his friend Lazarus and has meaningful
S2: friendships and connections. And so I think the whole toxic
S2: masculinity thing is a reaction to the third wave feminism stuff.
S2: And I'd much rather cast a positive vision than just
S2: critique the harmful visions that are out there in culture.
S4: Yeah. How have you seen a lack of authentic masculinity
S4: harm churches and, and our marriages?
S2: Yeah. The point you shared earlier at the very beginning
S2: of the program is this man who's at the gym
S2: abdicating his responsibility as a man because he's neglecting his wife.
S2: I do think that that passivity or that lack of
S2: use of power is a huge problem, where a lot
S2: of the guys I talk to and a lot of
S2: the wives I end up talking to, to the church,
S2: a lot of what they're suffering from is not abuse
S2: from men, but abdication from men. The lack of interest,
S2: the lack of engagement, the lack of emotional availability, the
S2: lack of connection. And I do think that, you know,
S2: misuse of power, abuse of power is a huge problem.
S2: And I do think that it's probably more common than
S2: a lot of evangelicals understand it to be. But I
S2: think more so just on a percentage basis, the disengaged man,
S2: the aloof man, causes more issues than the abusive man.
S2: Just broadly speaking, both are huge problems and both require attention.
S2: But I think those kind of weak marriages where wives
S2: don't feel attuned to, they don't feel connected, they don't
S2: feel cared for, they don't feel cherished and nourished. Like
S2: Ephesians five talks about, those poor marriages lead to poor parenting,
S2: which leads to weak churches. And I do think same
S2: with pastors and churches. You know, I just speaking about myself,
S2: I have way more of a proclivity to be a
S2: passive pastor than an abusive pastor to allow and tolerate
S2: what I shouldn't allow and tolerate than to be domineering
S2: in authoritarian. And so some of it is you got
S2: to know yourself as a man and go. Are you
S2: inclined towards hyper aggressiveness? Are you inclined towards passivity? And
S2: I think most men, if they're honest, are probably inclined
S2: towards passivity over against being domineering.
S4: HMM.
S3: Can you describe one situation where you were a passive
S3: pastor and you saw it and you thought, no, I
S3: need to jump in here?
S2: Yeah, I think especially around relational dysfunction or emotional, uh,
S2: unhealth in leaders where there's reactivity or there is hostility
S2: or there is, uh, kind of conspiratorial behavior and you
S2: kind of sell yourself on, oh, if I just love them,
S2: they'll get healthier over time and it'll play out well,
S2: as opposed to, uh, rebuking and reproving like the New
S2: Testament tells me to as a pastor. And so I
S2: think a nervousness to engage or intercede or protect or
S2: defend when someone is relationally unhealthy or when they're when
S2: they're sinning, to try to kind of go, okay, I
S2: don't want to go yanking out all the weeds because
S2: that might disrupt the roots of the good plants. And
S2: I think that almost every time that ends up biting me,
S2: and I've kind of talked myself into a passivity when
S2: I should be out there confronting people and for the
S2: greater good of the whole church.
S4: And that's difficult. It's difficult, especially in the church setting.
S4: But I hear you, man, and I think you're right. Well,
S4: let's talk about sex. How does an authentically masculine man
S4: view sex?
S2: Yeah, I think most basically, we have to understand that
S2: sex is defined and determined by God. And so the
S2: common narrative nowadays is that sex is just like shaking hands,
S2: that it's just two bodies touching. What's the big deal?
S2: That it's just a, a physical act that's a liken
S2: to hunger. You know, it's an appetite. It's animal, it's natural.
S2: It's it's there's nothing sacred or significant to it. And
S2: so I think the first thing we have to do
S2: is recognize God's design for sex. That it's this mutually
S2: and connecting and benefiting connection between a man and a
S2: woman exclusively in the covenant of marriage. And one of
S2: the things that I try to tell guys in particular
S2: on the younger side, is that one of the worst
S2: things you can do to your girlfriend is treat her
S2: like a wife that don't ask your girlfriend to do
S2: wife stuff. Don't ask your girlfriend and don't. That means
S2: don't share a bank account. That means don't make her
S2: your accountability partner. That means don't move her across the
S2: country with you. It means don't have sex with her.
S2: And so that women, especially biologically speaking, deserve and need
S2: to be given the safety that covenant sex delivers, that emotional, legal,
S2: public financial connection because women bear in their bodies the
S2: The consequences of sex. And I mean, consequences are not negatively,
S2: but positively. You know, when a woman gets pregnant, she's
S2: way more vulnerable than a man who doesn't get pregnant.
S2: And I think that connected, covenanted one flesh union is
S2: the proper context for sex. And when you look at
S2: the literature on the surveys of it, you see that actually, uh,
S2: that type of committed relationship sex is actually better for
S2: women than it is for women who have kind of
S2: hookups like, uh. And so I think there's a design
S2: there that we receive that there is a one flesh
S2: that covers us physically, financially, spiritually, relationally, publicly and legally.
S2: And that's the proper context for that. And so if
S2: you care about this woman, then you'll want to offer
S2: your body to her and ask her to offer her
S2: body to you in the context of a warm, connected,
S2: mutually enjoying, covenantal connection and not in some other context.
S4: Yeah, that's that's so, so needed in today's culture. You know,
S4: some research has indicated that those couples who live together
S4: have sex together before marriage are far more likely to
S4: not get married, and consequently go through the pain of
S4: a broken relationship. Uh, God's plans are not there to
S4: make life hard on us. They're they're there to help
S4: us have the best possible life, right?
S2: Amen. Amen. There's one study I read recently that talked
S2: about in a noncommitted hookup situation, that women only experience
S2: the most pleasurable part of sex 10% of the time,
S2: which is a pretty poor numeric thing. And it goes
S2: much higher in the context of a committed relationship. And
S2: I think it goes even higher when a husband is
S2: devoted to cherishing and nourishing this woman, and not just
S2: using her body. And so I think even within the
S2: covenant of marriage, husbands who don't cherish and nourish, broadly speaking,
S2: or even give attention to their wife. And her body
S2: can be selfish, even in the context of marriage, rather
S2: than the kind of first Corinthians seven, this mutually giving
S2: that's mutually encouraging and mutually satisfying. And so one of
S2: the things I've heard said before, you know, is good
S2: married sex begins in the kitchen. And what they're getting
S2: at is this you're engaged in serving and attentive, not
S2: aloof in the whole of the relationship. And I hope
S2: that men recognize that sex is not just something they
S2: get from their wife. That whole framing of it is,
S2: I think, awful and dehumanizing, but it's something that they
S2: do together to cement and connect their covenant relationship. And hopefully,
S2: and ideally in a way that brings about children and
S2: allows you to pass on the faith and yourself to
S2: the next generation.
S4: Yeah. God's plan is always the best plan. It's just
S4: that simple. What what are some of the ways that
S4: men can genuinely live out their God given design?
S2: I think, especially this next generation, one of the ways
S2: that we can shine like stars in a dark generation
S2: is to work really hard and to resist the sin
S2: of sloth. I think the doomscrolling, the social media, the
S2: permanent dopamine loop that you can find yourself in, I
S2: think as Christian men recognize that God has prepared good
S2: things for them to do ahead of time, that we
S2: should walk in them, and to just actually believe that
S2: God has a design for me. And I know when
S2: you're younger, the specificity of that's not always clear. What
S2: exactly is my career? What exactly is my role? Generally speaking,
S2: we know we want to work and serve the common
S2: good and add value to society and love and serve
S2: our wife and kids. And I think as we grow
S2: in competence, we get more confident in our careers. But
S2: I do think that the first problem we see in
S2: the Scripture is Genesis two. There's no man to work
S2: the ground. And so God puts a man in the
S2: garden to work it. And then the next problem is
S2: there's no helper fit for him. And so he creates
S2: a woman. And I think that Genesis one subdue and dominion,
S2: which corresponds with work and making culture and cultivating and
S2: creating value and that fruitful and multiply, which has to
S2: do with the home. I do think that the work
S2: and the home are two big parts of a man's identity,
S2: and either of those things are not going well. Men
S2: tend to really struggle. And so I think going, God
S2: has created me to work and work hard. God's created
S2: me to love and love deeply. And I want to
S2: lean into those two things as as hard as I
S2: can and not waste my life just scrolling and meandering aimlessly.
S2: Not sure what to do, but to get out there
S2: and put your hand to the plow like I like
S2: that Ecclesiastes verse. Whatever your hand finds to do, do
S2: it with all your might. You don't want to leave
S2: any meat on the bone, but get out there and
S2: try to do great things for God, for his glory,
S2: and because he loves you as your son.
S1: Thanks for joining us for the Building Relationships with Doctor
S1: Gary Chapman podcast. Go to Building relationships.us to see a
S1: list of seminar locations coming up for Doctor Chapman and
S1: find out about our featured resource, the book by Seth
S1: Trout Authentic Masculinity. Just go to Building relationships.us or visit
S1: us at five Love languages.com.
S4: Seth, you outline the five roles of manhood in the book.
S4: Let's go through each of these and explain those roles.
S2: Yeah. So the book is organized in two pyramids. That
S2: first one is that four layer masculine virtues. The second
S2: half of the book is the five layer masculine roles.
S2: And these do the order does matter here. And I
S2: think that the baseline here. So the bottom of the
S2: pyramid of the second pyramid is sun. And the reason
S2: that's first is you're a sun before you're even born
S2: in the womb, you have a mother and a father
S2: and you have all this generational baggage, you're coming with you.
S2: That's that's coming with you. And some of that baggage
S2: is great. You know, when the airport loses your luggage,
S2: you're mad about it. Because I was like, I wanted
S2: that baggage. And some of that baggage is obviously negative,
S2: you know, negative patterns of relating negative family history. Some
S2: of that's genetic. Some of that is relational, you know,
S2: nature nurture. It's kind of all in play. But the
S2: first task of the son is you're going, I want
S2: to steward my family's story and be cognizant of the
S2: ways I want to break generational patterns, cognizant of the
S2: ways I want to maintain generational patterns and really kind
S2: of get clear about what am I grateful for in
S2: my family history, and what am I grieved by in
S2: my family history? And be mindful of the fact that,
S2: you know, Jesus might be in your heart, but grandpa's
S2: in your bones, as Peter Cicero has said before, and
S2: I do think a lot of men, young men are
S2: under fathered or fathered. And this idea of making dad
S2: proud is kind of disgusting to them because they don't
S2: respect their dad. But I do want men to feel
S2: like one of my tasks is to become the type
S2: of man that a wise man would be proud of.
S2: Even if that's not my dad, I want to be
S2: that type of man. That's a lot of what you
S2: get in the Proverbs is, you know, a son can,
S2: you know, bring stress to his mother or bring shame
S2: to his father. We don't want to be that guy.
S2: We want to be a guy who either maintains the
S2: honor that our family name has, or redeems the family
S2: name and begin it to associate with good things. So
S2: that's like the son layer. The next layer up is brother.
S2: And so a lot of people are brothers in the
S2: womb because they're not the firstborn. But what I think
S2: in that chapter I'm really trying to do is what
S2: first Peter or first Timothy five says, which is see
S2: relate to younger women as sisters in all purity, uh,
S2: and the younger brothers as and likewise. And so that
S2: chapter is really kind of doing two things. One, it's
S2: on sexual purity, how to not objectify women, but to
S2: objectify women, to see them as subjects and as sisters,
S2: and to see that lust, especially within the church, is disgusting.
S2: It's incestuous. It's not just something to be managed, but
S2: it's actually something to hate and to want to eradicate
S2: from our very souls. And then, brother, likewise, I want
S2: men to be spurred on to have fraternal connection and
S2: have that iron sharpens iron relationship where they're not just
S2: having friends, but they're having a brotherhood within the church.
S2: So that son and brother, the third layer up is maker,
S2: which is all about a man, a man's work and
S2: his money. And how do we manage money and how
S2: do we manage our energy as workers in the kingdom?
S2: But then also just for the common good, how do
S2: we leverage ourselves in a way that blesses other people?
S2: And the next layer up is husband, which is largely
S2: based on Ephesians five. What does it look like to
S2: cherish and nourish a wife, to anticipate her needs, to
S2: treat her as precious, to understand her, to be a
S2: student of her, to image Christ in the way he
S2: loves the church. And in the top of that pyramid
S2: is father. And that's not to say that biological fatherhood
S2: is like the apex of life. But ideally, first you
S2: deal with your son stuff, your brother stuff, make your stuff,
S2: husband stuff. And then when you become a father, you
S2: start to focus on the next generation and passing yourself
S2: on to others. And that's obviously not just biological, but
S2: also spiritual. As we disciple and aspire to be elder
S2: qualified men, even if we never are in the office
S2: of elder.
S4: I really like the way you do that because it's
S4: it's covering all of life, you know, starting off with
S4: being a son and perhaps ending up being a father.
S4: But it covers the whole of life. And in those chapters,
S4: of course, you deal more intently with, uh, specifically, you know,
S4: Christian lifestyles. What does an authentic, uh, what does authentic
S4: manhood look like as men relate to women?
S2: Yeah. I think especially in the church, that sister metaphor,
S2: I think is really important that we relate as siblings
S2: who have the same father and have the same family.
S2: And really, I think relating to women is kind of
S2: like a walk before you run here thing. And I
S2: think walking has to do with honoring the other with
S2: pure hearts and pure eyes. Not dehumanizing, not objectifying. But
S2: there ends up being like that playful sibling friendship banter
S2: thing that I would love all men to have in
S2: the church with their sisters in Christ. And I think
S2: that going back to the masculine virtues of humility, discipline,
S2: and responsibility and chivalry, that when I bring that into
S2: my relationships with women now, I am able to have humility,
S2: not presuming on the other, but cherishing the other, and
S2: recognizing that God designed them just like God designed me.
S2: I'm having self-control. I'm displaying my desires. I'm not blaming
S2: them for my sin, and I'm taking responsibility for the
S2: ways that I have sinned. And I'm also broadening my
S2: umbrella such that I can care for them as sisters
S2: and relate to them in that way. And so I
S2: think at a minimum, we're talking about sexual purity here,
S2: but at a maximum we're looking for like a positive sibling,
S2: a playful, connected friendship that I think honors them and
S2: treats them as sisters, the sisters in Christ that they
S2: actually are.
S4: You know, I think that particular section in the book
S4: is going to be super, super helpful for young, not
S4: for young men to start with, but for men of
S4: any age. Now you discuss male friendships. You just mentioned friendships,
S4: but you discuss male friendships and you introduce the rails
S4: RAILS framework for building stronger relationships. What is that concept
S4: and why is that concept so important?
S2: Yeah, one of the jokes I've heard before is that
S2: the biggest miracle Jesus ever committed was, you know, being
S2: in his 30s and having 12 close friends. And I
S2: think that a lot of men feel that pressure, especially
S2: as you have a job, you have kids, you have
S2: a wife, and a lot of men tend to pull
S2: back on their male friendships. I've I've seen it described by,
S2: I think it was the National Health Service, the epidemic
S2: of male loneliness. And I think a lot of guys
S2: are going. It feels like I have to become a
S2: worse husband and a worse father in order to have
S2: male friendships, and I'm not willing to do that. So
S2: I'll just forgo the friendships and what I was trying
S2: to do with the rails acronym, which is rhythm, affinity, intensity, longevity,
S2: and spirituality is try to help guys see opportunities. They
S2: have to improve their friendships kind of one notch at
S2: a time. So if you have rhythm, you know, you
S2: maybe you see the guy at church regularly, or you
S2: see the guy at kids drop off at school regularly,
S2: or you see them while your kids are playing flag
S2: football regularly. You already have rhythm. What's a way that
S2: you could add affinity to that? You know, let's go
S2: grab a movie together. Let's get a meal together. Intensity
S2: is really about sharing of the emotional life. You know,
S2: your hopes, your fears, your dreams, your concerns. There's obviously
S2: a different layers of that intensity. You know, there's sharing
S2: about your shame and your regrets. I do think every
S2: man needs to at least have a couple guys that
S2: have access to all the information in their heart, both
S2: the positive and the negative. And then longevity, something you
S2: can't just decide to do. It takes a long time
S2: to grow old friends. But I remember meeting these three
S2: guys in their 70s who had been friends for 50
S2: years and just asking, how did it happen? And they said, well,
S2: it was a value and a priority to us. We
S2: decided that we would say no to job opportunities that
S2: require relocation because we value our friendship. Uh, not as
S2: much as we value Christ or our wife, but we
S2: also value it high. And so going, okay, so if
S2: longevity is one of my values, then that's going to
S2: be a factor in my decision making and spirituality is
S2: praying together, you know, Bible study together, things like that.
S2: And so my hope is that, uh, as guys have connections,
S2: like one of my good buddies now, I'd see him
S2: at church. Uh, we've been friends a long time, but
S2: he invited me to start doing jiu jitsu with him,
S2: and now I see him with more regularity because we
S2: have this affinity, like we have a shared hobby, and
S2: our friendship is enriching because of that choice. And so, uh,
S2: that whole rail section is just kind of a way
S2: for guys who feel stuck on how do I improve
S2: my friendships to go? What are some small steps I
S2: could take that are not going to impinge on my
S2: ability to be a husband and a father?
S4: Yeah. It reminds me of an experience I had when
S4: I was writing a book on cross-cultural friendships, and I
S4: stopped in a restaurant and saw a gentleman, uh, of
S4: a different race. And, uh, I said to him, may
S4: I ask you a personal question? I told him I
S4: was writing a book on cross-cultural friendships. I said, could
S4: you give me the name of, uh, a personal friend
S4: of yours who is a different race from your race.
S4: And he thought a moment and then he said, I
S4: don't have a close personal friend of my own race. Wow.
S4: And I think the reality is there are many men
S4: that do not have a friendship, you know. So that
S4: that area is so important. So it's just, man, I
S4: wish men could understand that.
S2: Yeah. I want men to recognize that they're valuable and
S2: they should. It's important for them to be known and
S2: seen and loved by other men. And I do think
S2: that David and Jonathan picture we get is totally pushed
S2: aside in a lot of Christian circles, because there's so
S2: many men who are deadbeat fathers or aloof husbands. It
S2: kind of feels like, well, I can't really be investing
S2: in friendship because I stink at this other stuff. And
S2: so yeah, I have empathy for that. But I men
S2: knowing and loving each other and sharpening each other is
S2: a big deal.
S4: Seth, we mentioned earlier that work is a central part
S4: of men's lives. What does the Bible say about how
S4: a man should approach being an entrepreneur and a provider?
S2: Yeah. Like I mentioned earlier in Genesis chapter two, there's
S2: no man to work the ground. So God put the
S2: man in the garden to work it and keep it.
S2: And I do think that's pre-eminently looking at his role
S2: to serve and protect in that garden, which he fails
S2: to do when the serpent approaches. Eve, obviously. But I
S2: think that the word subdue and dominion are pretty rich.
S2: We get in Genesis one and subdue has to do
S2: with applying creative force. It's like kneading bread, treading grapes.
S2: It's applying creative pressure. It's taking what was possible and
S2: making it actual. And that provision or that protection I
S2: think you get in Genesis two is repeated through a
S2: lot of the assumptions you see in the New Testament.
S2: You know, if a man does not provide for his family,
S2: he's worse than an unbeliever and should be cut off.
S2: And I think that verse is mostly talking about caring
S2: for your aging parents or aging people in your circle,
S2: not necessarily your nuclear family per se, but there is
S2: still this vision cast for that. The man will bear
S2: the responsibility. I think you see that clearly in Genesis three,
S2: that when the curse of sin is applied to the creation,
S2: the consequences of those things are applied with gendered distinction.
S2: So to the woman God gives, it says, you know,
S2: the your your desire shall be against your husband and
S2: he will rule over you. So she's going to feel
S2: pain in the household. And then also she says that
S2: she's told that she'll in pain bring forth children. And
S2: so kind of what you see is the female bears
S2: the brunt of the effects of sin in the home
S2: and the fruitful multiply side. But then to the man,
S2: God tells him, you know, by the sweat of your
S2: face will you bring forth things from the ground, you know,
S2: by the sweat of your face you'll eat bread. And
S2: so the man is going to bear the brunt of
S2: the curse as far as the subdue and dominion or
S2: the work and provide peace. And so I think part
S2: of what men need to do is recognize that work
S2: is a blessing, but work is cursed, and it's part
S2: of our responsibility as husbands and men to absorb that
S2: curse and not push it onto our wives when we
S2: are going about trying to build our lives together. And
S2: that's a really honor and a noble thing. You know,
S2: absorbing the effects of the curse is one of the
S2: things that Jesus. I mean, it's a thing that Jesus
S2: does on the cross is he absorbs that so that,
S2: so that we can live and flourish. And I want
S2: that to be one of my goals in my household
S2: is I want to absorb that curse and not ask
S2: my wife to be the one absorbing that curse.
S4: Yeah, yeah. You know, also, many men actually pour themselves
S4: into work and the job becomes a mistress. I remember
S4: a pastor's wife once said to me, she said, chairman,
S4: I'm going to be honest with you. I feel like
S4: that my husband has a mistress and oh man, my
S4: flags went up, you know, I said, really? She said, yeah,
S4: it's the church. Yeah. Wow. But it doesn't matter what
S4: the vocation is. We can get so involved in it
S4: that we we ignore, uh, maybe not intentionally. So what
S4: biblical wisdom would you offer to a man in that
S4: situation who is just, you know, overly involved in work
S4: and not taking time to relate to the family?
S2: Yeah. I think we have to think of our work
S2: in seasons and our responsibilities as being in a meaningful
S2: competition with each other, right? I can give so much
S2: attention to my wife. I neglect my kids. I can
S2: give so much attention to my kids. I neglect my wife.
S2: I can give so much attention to my friends. I
S2: neglect them both. I can give so much attention to
S2: all of those things that I neglect my work. And
S2: so there has to be this seasonal tension that we manage.
S2: That's not really a problem we can solve. But I
S2: think back to a couple hundred years ago when something
S2: like 80, 90% of men were homesteading, there wasn't really
S2: an industrial revolution. And when it's harvest time, you're out
S2: sunup to sundown. But then when it's waiting time, you
S2: have more time at home. And so I think the
S2: most important thing is being on the same page with
S2: your wife and being, uh, being a good communicator with
S2: seasonal responsibilities. Seasons of emphasis, not lying to yourself about
S2: how seasons become, uh, permanent realities. And so I know
S2: in my work, there are months where I tell my wife,
S2: I'm gonna have to work a little more this week.
S2: I'm going to be home late this day. I'm going
S2: to be kind of burning the candle at both ends
S2: for a season. And, and she's on board with that
S2: when it's seasonal. And then there are other times where
S2: I'm home early and I'm in the pool with the
S2: kids at 330, and you kind of have to try
S2: to seasonally flex emphasis. I don't think you can ever
S2: be perfectly balanced. You get unbalanced to the right, then
S2: you get unbalanced to the left. And that takes wisdom
S2: and connection. And I think when you have a priority
S2: of building your life with your wife and she's just
S2: finding out about all these things, but she's included in
S2: helping you manage that tension. I think it can go well,
S2: even as there's seasons where there's less availability in contrast
S2: to seasons where there's more availability. And so I think
S2: we have to embrace the reality of seasons and be
S2: honest with ourselves about when those seasons just become permanent,
S2: unsustainable realities.
S4: So if you talk about the A, B, C's of fatherhood,
S4: what are those? Just describe those for us.
S2: Yeah, this is going to reveal my addiction to pyramids,
S2: but this is another pyramid I have in the book
S2: underneath the Fatherhood thing. But I was trying to think
S2: through how I love my kids and what could be lacking.
S2: And so this is a three layered pyramid. The bottom
S2: is affection. This is warmth, connection, attunement, care, consideration, compassion.
S2: That's affection. That's the bottom pyramid. The middle one is blessing,
S2: which is about investment. And so proactive discipleship, proactive education, uh,
S2: financially investing in them, relationally investing in them. And so
S2: this is about adding to their life. You know, I
S2: think about the book, the blessing, you know, John Trent
S2: wrote is really influential there. Like, how do I speak
S2: words of life into them and put wind in their
S2: sails and set them up for success? You know, kind
S2: of plow the driveway so that they can run on it,
S2: so to speak. And then see is correction or discipline,
S2: which is all about, uh, live feedback, engagement. And there's
S2: a real culture now of the gentle parenting thing where
S2: parents can't say no to their kids and they can't
S2: make their kids obey them. And I do think that
S2: the Bible says, you know, a man who doesn't discipline
S2: his kid hates him, and you have to correct and
S2: intervene and engage. And so I think that can get
S2: out of whack if you flip that pyramid upside down
S2: and the base is correction, I think that's militaristic, cold, distant, aloof.
S2: But if a foundation is affection and investment and blessing,
S2: and then you're correcting, kids can receive that correction as
S2: loving care, not just as being micromanaged or criticized.
S4: Yeah. You know, Seth, not all Christian men are going
S4: to be biological fathers for one reason or another. But
S4: you write about spiritual fatherhood. Uh, how can a man
S4: live that out?
S2: Yeah. Some of the men that I know who are
S2: not biological fathers that are making an incredible difference in
S2: the life of local church, what they've signed up to
S2: do is to invest in kids ministry and student ministry.
S2: You know, one of my close friends, this is a
S2: heartbreaking story. But his 14 year old passed away in
S2: a dirt bike accident three years ago or so. And
S2: he has, you know, rightly grieved, but he's no longer, uh,
S2: parenting his son. It's really difficult. And one of the
S2: things he's done is he's stayed connected to his son's
S2: friends and he's loving them. Disciple. A lot of those
S2: guys have pretty poor fathers or aloof fathers or non-Christian fathers,
S2: and he's leading Bible studies with those guys, and he's
S2: supporting them and loving them. He's actually taken a group
S2: of nine of them through authentic masculinity right now. And
S2: that's an example of a man who carried his grief
S2: and is now stewarding his time and refusing to let
S2: his lack of a biological son on earth to take
S2: him out of the game. On investing in the kingdom,
S2: investing in the next generation. And I think that engaging
S2: in discipleship and loving, especially, you know, the fatherless or
S2: the under fathered, is a huge opportunity for men who
S2: never were biological fathers to invest in the kingdom of
S2: God and to do the work of an elder, even
S2: if they never hold the office of elder.
S4: Yeah. You know, as we come toward the end of
S4: our time, you also address younger men who have a
S4: hard time engaging face to face with women. I'm talking
S4: about unmarried men. Now. They might text a girl, you know,
S4: asking for a date, but they have a hard time
S4: on the face to face thing. How do you what
S4: do you what do you say to that young man?
S2: I think, really pragmatically speaking, your nervous system takes time
S2: to adapt to new situations. And so if you avoid
S2: the awkwardness or the clunkiness of trying to learn to
S2: talk to women face to face, you'll never learn. That's
S2: not going to the clouds aren't going to part. And spontaneously,
S2: you're going to be confident. Talking to women. I think
S2: you have to try and be willing to be clunky
S2: and awkward and recognize that even if a lot of
S2: women reject you, your father in heaven loves you, and
S2: the church loves you, and Jesus loves you. And so
S2: your identity is not at risk when you're rejected by
S2: a female. But you have to grow in comfortability with
S2: the possibility of rejection. If you're going to ever have
S2: those conversations in a meaningful way, I also think you
S2: owe it to women to get good at that. Like
S2: women deserve to have men in their life that are
S2: not awkward and weird whenever they're around. Like if at
S2: a minimum, if you want to talk to them as
S2: sisters in Christ, you can't be all sweaty and weird
S2: and difficult when there's women around. And so if you
S2: want to have a good and meaningful connection to women,
S2: broadly speaking, or specifically romantically, it's going to take trial
S2: and error. There's no way you get good at anything
S2: right away. Like I think I mentioned earlier, I started
S2: jiu jitsu. I'm awful at it. I lose all the time.
S2: I hate going to jiu jitsu every day that I
S2: go in at eight, nine, ten years, I've been doing
S2: it eight, nine, ten months and they're thrashing me. And
S2: but I understand this is what I signed up for.
S2: I know I'm bad and I'm going to get better incrementally.
S2: And I think it's the same with talking to females,
S2: talking to women, getting romantically engaged with them. And so
S2: allow yourself to be bad at things. You can't be
S2: good at things on square one.
S4: Yeah. And I would just throw this in If your
S4: whole relationship is by texting and online, please don't decide
S4: to get married until you spend some time talking face
S4: to face and getting to know the person. Yeah, technology
S4: is wonderful, but but in terms of relationships, you can't
S4: depend on technology, right?
S2: Oh, absolutely. I think you should spend as little time
S2: texting someone as possible. That's a general rule, I think
S2: if my wife and I are texting more than we're talking,
S2: that's a bad sign. And I think that's especially true
S2: in the forming stages of a relationship, that it requires
S2: no vulnerability to type an edited message versus doing it
S2: live where you're getting the feedback you're experiencing, the reciprocity
S2: of talking to a person face to face, doing the
S2: eye contact thing, especially early on, you really want to
S2: get face time and not just do digital communication.
S4: Well, Seth, we could talk on because this is a
S4: tremendous topic and I want to express appreciation to you
S4: for your investment of time and energy in writing this book.
S4: And I want to encourage our listeners, wherever you are
S4: in human relationships, this book will be a help to
S4: you and especially obviously to men. But I think women
S4: also reading this book and being there to interface with
S4: your husband as he processes all of this. But we
S4: need to rediscover the biblical picture of what manhood is
S4: all about. And if we do, we're going to bless
S4: our family, and we're going to be a part of
S4: influencing our culture. So again, I just want to thank
S4: you for what you've done in writing it, and I
S4: want to thank you for being on our program today.
S2: Thank you for having me. It's been a real treat.
S3: We hope the conversation encouraged every man and woman listening.
S3: And if you go to our website, Building relationships.us, you'll
S3: see more about our guest and the featured resource, Seth
S3: Trout's book, Authentic Masculinity Leaving Behind the Counterfeits for God's Design.
S3: Just go to building relationships.us.
S4: And coming up next week, we open the phone lines
S4: for your calls and questions about relationship struggles.
S5: Don't miss our June.
S3: Edition of Dear Gary in one week. And if you'd
S3: like to ask a question, call this number 1866424. Gary
S3: again (866) 424-4279.
S1: And before we go, let me thank our production team
S1: Steve Wick and Janice backing building relationships with doctor Gary
S1: Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with
S1: Moody Publishers, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.