WEBVTT - Authentic Masculinity - Seth Troutt 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:02.400 Well, what does it mean to be a man in 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:03.520 today's culture? 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:07.440 I didn't have any anxiety about masculinity stuff until the 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:10.800 social pressure started to hit, and that's a lot of 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:13.360 what I'm hoping to do with this book, is beat 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:16.120 these guys to the punch, right, and help them get 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:19.880 a positive vision so that when they hear those negative examples, 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.200 they'll have a counterpoint ready to go. 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.600 Welcome to Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.800 The New York Times best seller, The Five Love Languages. 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:37.840 For years, we've heard the accusation that masculinity is toxic. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:42.600 But pastor and author Seth Trout says authentic masculinity is 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:46.520 rooted in living according to God's design. He'll unpack that 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.680 for us today and what it means in marriage and society. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:55.040 Our featured resource at Building relationships.us is Seth's book, Authentic 0:00:55.040 --> 0:01:00.540 Masculinity Leaving Behind the Counterfeits for God's Design. again, find 0:01:00.540 --> 0:01:04.380 it at building relationships.us. And I want to turn the 0:01:04.380 --> 0:01:07.580 question to you, Gary, as a pastor, as a counselor, 0:01:07.940 --> 0:01:13.100 you have seen counterfeit masculinity through the years. How have 0:01:13.100 --> 0:01:14.899 you responded to that? 0:01:15.459 --> 0:01:19.940 You know, Chris, as soon as you said that, there 0:01:19.940 --> 0:01:22.500 came to my mind a visual image of a man 0:01:22.500 --> 0:01:24.820 who came into my office a number of years ago, 0:01:25.620 --> 0:01:28.700 one of the most muscular men I've ever seen. I mean, 0:01:28.740 --> 0:01:33.100 his muscles were just bulging. And he said, Doctor Chapman, 0:01:33.620 --> 0:01:37.060 I got a serious problem. My wife just filed for 0:01:37.060 --> 0:01:42.220 divorce and he said, I don't know why. So I 0:01:42.260 --> 0:01:45.340 listened to him for the next 40 minutes on what 0:01:45.340 --> 0:01:49.260 was going on, you know, and I realized this man's 0:01:49.260 --> 0:01:53.820 idea of masculinity is muscles. And he spent the bulk 0:01:53.820 --> 0:01:56.580 of his time, his free time after work, you know, 0:01:56.620 --> 0:02:00.210 working out, working out, working out. So she she felt 0:02:00.210 --> 0:02:02.890 like she didn't have a husband. She wasn't leaving him. 0:02:02.890 --> 0:02:08.410 She didn't have one. She was just acknowledging what is. Unfortunately, 0:02:08.810 --> 0:02:12.530 I was not able to help them really come to 0:02:12.810 --> 0:02:15.930 a conclusion that I had hoped would happen. But, uh, 0:02:16.290 --> 0:02:18.929 she had felt so neglected for so many years that 0:02:18.930 --> 0:02:22.410 she just, uh, you know, wasn't willing to, to work 0:02:22.410 --> 0:02:26.090 on the marriage. So yeah, people have different ideas on 0:02:26.090 --> 0:02:29.209 what it means to be masculine. Uh, that was just 0:02:29.210 --> 0:02:32.090 one example, but, uh, this book is going to be 0:02:32.090 --> 0:02:34.169 helpful to a lot of folks. And I am really 0:02:34.169 --> 0:02:36.130 excited about our conversation today. 0:02:36.690 --> 0:02:39.730 Well, let's meet pastor and author Doctor Seth Trout. He 0:02:39.730 --> 0:02:42.730 is the teaching pastor at Ironwood Church in the Phoenix 0:02:42.730 --> 0:02:47.209 metro area. He's been pastoring full time since 2011, holds 0:02:47.210 --> 0:02:52.650 a doctorate focused on digital technology, Gen Z, and gender identity. 0:02:52.850 --> 0:02:56.970 He's an alumnus of Arizona State University, Phoenix Seminary, and 0:02:56.970 --> 0:03:01.310 Covenant Seminary. Seth and his wife have been married since 2013. 0:03:01.350 --> 0:03:04.030 They have two children, and his latest book is our 0:03:04.030 --> 0:03:10.390 Featured resource at Building relationships.us. Authentic Masculinity Leaving behind the 0:03:10.389 --> 0:03:15.190 Counterfeits for God's design. Again, go to Building relationships.us. 0:03:16.110 --> 0:03:18.750 Well, Pastor Trout, welcome to Building Relationships. 0:03:18.950 --> 0:03:20.830 Thanks for having me on. It's a real treat to 0:03:20.870 --> 0:03:22.910 get to talk about masculinity with you all. 0:03:23.590 --> 0:03:26.790 There must be something you saw as a pastor and 0:03:26.790 --> 0:03:30.390 father that made you want to write about this topic 0:03:30.389 --> 0:03:34.950 of authentic masculinity. Tell us about it. What motivated you? 0:03:35.510 --> 0:03:38.670 You know that story you shared earlier about the kind 0:03:38.670 --> 0:03:42.110 of muscle oriented masculinity resonates? You know, I meet a 0:03:42.150 --> 0:03:44.270 lot of guys at the gym who are non Christians 0:03:44.270 --> 0:03:48.750 who think that testosterone equals masculinity, and that's kind of 0:03:48.790 --> 0:03:51.630 where their list ends. And they're really locked into that 0:03:51.630 --> 0:03:55.470 type of stereotypical vision. I simultaneously talked to a lot 0:03:55.470 --> 0:04:00.420 of younger guys who are not motivated in their life. 0:04:00.460 --> 0:04:03.500 They understand that the love of money is the root 0:04:03.500 --> 0:04:05.500 of all kinds of evil, but they're just kind of 0:04:05.780 --> 0:04:10.060 stuck in this malaise, slothful existence. What hill should I 0:04:10.060 --> 0:04:12.140 try to climb? What should I work hard at? What 0:04:12.140 --> 0:04:15.020 does it mean to do the best I can with 0:04:15.020 --> 0:04:17.540 my life? And so there's kind of an aimlessness. Like 0:04:17.580 --> 0:04:19.100 they don't know what the bulls eye is, so they 0:04:19.100 --> 0:04:21.539 don't even shoot. They don't know what the goal is, 0:04:21.540 --> 0:04:24.260 so they don't strive. But the real reason that I 0:04:24.260 --> 0:04:28.220 got into this masculinity stuff was there was a church 0:04:28.220 --> 0:04:31.820 with a lot of college students a couple miles from ours, 0:04:31.860 --> 0:04:34.420 right by Arizona State University. We're probably about 30 minutes 0:04:34.420 --> 0:04:36.580 away from there. And they said, hey, can you come 0:04:36.580 --> 0:04:40.620 and talk on this toxic masculinity thing? There's this famous 0:04:40.620 --> 0:04:45.740 guy named Andrew Tate who recommends that men get strong, 0:04:45.740 --> 0:04:49.740 stop smoking weed, work hard, and then also says things like, 0:04:50.060 --> 0:04:54.820 marriage is a trap designed by feminists to keep men domesticated. 0:04:54.820 --> 0:04:57.279 And you should basically go out and have kids with 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:01.560 as many women as possible. And the divorce laws favor women. 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:05.520 Society's favored against men. And like half of what he says, 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:07.560 I'm like, yes, move out of your mom's basement. Don't 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:09.960 smoke weed, work really hard. And the other half is 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.400 just a baptism of the desires of the flesh. But 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:16.520 he's been the masculinity influencer that a lot of Gen 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:20.320 Zers have bought into. And so this guy, this pastor 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:23.200 locally said, can you come talk on masculinity? And I 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.560 thought I would love to. And that's kind of what 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.800 got me thinking deeply and praying deeply about younger men 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:33.360 in particular. And the men in my congregation are audience zero. 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.960 But beyond that, I just see a real need for 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.720 the church to cast a positive vision, not just to 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.240 critique what is negative in the culture, but to cast 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.360 a more compelling vision for God's design for men. 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:51.400 Well, I certainly agree that is definitely needed in today's culture. 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.309 Now you begin the book with stories about when you 0:05:55.350 --> 0:05:59.950 were younger and were told to be a man. What 0:05:59.950 --> 0:06:03.349 were you being told about manhood at that age? 0:06:04.430 --> 0:06:07.190 Here, the first time I got challenged to be a man, 0:06:07.230 --> 0:06:09.230 I was playing video games at a friend's house in 0:06:09.230 --> 0:06:12.030 fifth grade and he said, hey, come, you want to 0:06:12.029 --> 0:06:13.830 see some porn? And at that point, I didn't even 0:06:13.830 --> 0:06:15.870 know what that was. But I could tell based on 0:06:15.870 --> 0:06:18.430 how he was saying it, that I probably shouldn't want 0:06:18.430 --> 0:06:21.190 to do that. You know, I had two attentive, caring 0:06:21.190 --> 0:06:24.430 parents who they weren't really insecure about gender or anything 0:06:24.430 --> 0:06:26.150 like that. You know, my dad's a P.E. teacher, my 0:06:26.150 --> 0:06:29.950 mom's a preschool teacher. They were pretty warm and connected. 0:06:29.950 --> 0:06:31.710 And so I kind of knew, this is not good. 0:06:31.710 --> 0:06:33.710 I shouldn't do it. I don't know what it is. 0:06:33.750 --> 0:06:36.469 You know, the I had a gut instinct of. And 0:06:36.470 --> 0:06:38.430 I said, no thanks. And he said, oh, come on, 0:06:38.470 --> 0:06:40.830 be a man. And I thought, well, I don't want 0:06:40.870 --> 0:06:43.830 to be a woman. I don't want to be a child. 0:06:43.830 --> 0:06:46.909 So I better say yes. And that was my first 0:06:46.910 --> 0:06:52.670 exposure to pornography. Was that insecurity there. And then other 0:06:52.670 --> 0:06:55.929 little stories that begin to shape my assumption about what 0:06:55.930 --> 0:06:59.210 men should want, what men should do. I remember being 0:06:59.210 --> 0:07:02.370 in middle school at basketball tryouts, and the guys were 0:07:02.370 --> 0:07:04.730 doing pull ups on the basketball rim, and I couldn't 0:07:04.730 --> 0:07:07.690 do it. And someone said, oh, be a man, fatty, 0:07:07.850 --> 0:07:10.570 you know? And that was my first experience of not 0:07:10.570 --> 0:07:14.490 liking my body. You know, my my strength, feeling weak 0:07:14.810 --> 0:07:18.610 other times, having discipleship leaders in the church telling me 0:07:18.610 --> 0:07:20.330 to be a man and do my reading, you know, 0:07:20.330 --> 0:07:22.570 and that's not really a negative example as much as 0:07:22.610 --> 0:07:25.730 an additional example. But the main thing all those have 0:07:25.730 --> 0:07:30.370 in common were their shameful experiences of feeling like I 0:07:30.370 --> 0:07:32.650 didn't belong, feeling like I wasn't good enough, feeling like 0:07:32.650 --> 0:07:34.930 I needed to do X, Y, and Z to be 0:07:34.930 --> 0:07:40.010 accepted and loved by this community and that kind of sexual, responsible, 0:07:40.050 --> 0:07:44.650 strong and be this kind of caricature. Otherwise you're not 0:07:44.650 --> 0:07:49.410 a man really stuck with me and affected my mind, 0:07:49.410 --> 0:07:53.360 and I didn't have any anxiety about masculinity stuff until 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.760 the social pressure started to hit. And that's a lot 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:58.920 of what I'm hoping to do with this book, is 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:01.960 beat these guys to the punch, right? And help them 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.240 get a positive vision so that when they hear those 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:08.240 negative examples, they'll have a counterpoint ready to go. 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:12.640 Yeah. Yeah. So important. Boy, I think this book's going 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:17.600 to really help young men. Where should men look to 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:21.960 best understand masculinity that thrives in obedience to God? 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.480 I think what's been most helpful in my own journey, 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:29.320 but also in discipling other guys, has been really looking 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.600 closely at what Adam was supposed to do versus what 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:36.000 Adam did do in Genesis one, two, and three. There's 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:40.120 a lot there that's compelling in terms of a man's role, 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.880 a man's passivity, a man's failure. But then going to 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.640 the second Adam, the final Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ, 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.360 and seeing all the ways that Jesus is the anti Adam, 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:52.020 the final Adam, the Redeemer of all the men who 0:08:52.020 --> 0:08:54.740 have been like Adam and are like Adam. And so 0:08:54.740 --> 0:08:59.060 I do think that biblical masculinity is not really a 0:08:59.059 --> 0:09:02.979 type of masculinity, but it is the true vision of masculinity. 0:09:02.980 --> 0:09:06.780 And I think that the biblical story is actually really 0:09:06.780 --> 0:09:10.179 compelling and helps guys get a vision for what it 0:09:10.179 --> 0:09:12.339 looks like to be a Christ like man who is 0:09:12.340 --> 0:09:15.540 not an Adam like man. And I think that compare 0:09:15.540 --> 0:09:18.500 and contrast has been a really helpful resource in terms 0:09:18.500 --> 0:09:21.260 of forming and discipling young men on terms of what 0:09:21.260 --> 0:09:22.540 they want to be like and do. 0:09:23.740 --> 0:09:27.260 Well, Seth, you outline a masculinity pyramid in the book. 0:09:27.460 --> 0:09:29.820 Can you walk us through that diagram and give us 0:09:29.820 --> 0:09:32.260 an overview of the masculine virtues? 0:09:33.179 --> 0:09:34.700 Yeah, this is actually the part of the book that 0:09:34.700 --> 0:09:36.620 I'm the most proud of. You know, I like the 0:09:36.620 --> 0:09:38.700 whole book. I wrote it, my name's on it, etc. 0:09:38.700 --> 0:09:42.459 but this structure has been what's been most useful and 0:09:42.460 --> 0:09:45.660 even helping disciple my son who is six. And it 0:09:45.660 --> 0:09:49.100 really kind of begins through a handful of negations. So 0:09:49.780 --> 0:09:52.730 the bottom layer of the pyramid is that man is 0:09:52.730 --> 0:09:55.770 not God. And that sounds obvious, but a lot of 0:09:55.770 --> 0:09:58.650 guys don't get how significant that is. That man is 0:09:58.650 --> 0:10:02.410 not God. He is a creature that he's finite. He's limited. 0:10:02.410 --> 0:10:07.890 He's located in that God designed him and that we actually, 0:10:07.929 --> 0:10:10.250 if we want to be sober minded, have to submit 0:10:10.250 --> 0:10:12.090 our idea of what it means to be a man 0:10:12.090 --> 0:10:13.690 to God's idea of what it means to be a man. 0:10:13.690 --> 0:10:16.490 And so that bottom layer of the pyramid is man 0:10:16.490 --> 0:10:18.929 is not God. Therefore he must be humble or he 0:10:18.929 --> 0:10:23.090 should have humility. And that humility is really rooted in 0:10:23.090 --> 0:10:27.970 the creature creator distinction. But then on top of that, 0:10:27.970 --> 0:10:30.530 out of Genesis one through three, you get the gospel 0:10:30.530 --> 0:10:32.730 story of the fact that we're not just humble because 0:10:32.730 --> 0:10:36.170 we're creatures, but we're humble because we're sinful creatures who 0:10:36.170 --> 0:10:39.610 require grace, that we must be blessed by God if 0:10:39.610 --> 0:10:41.850 we are going to be anything. And so that's the 0:10:41.850 --> 0:10:44.809 bottom layer. It kind of makes me think about Matthew five. 0:10:44.850 --> 0:10:47.250 Blessed are the poor in spirit that we come to 0:10:47.290 --> 0:10:51.429 God with humility, submitting to his designs and recognizing that 0:10:51.429 --> 0:10:54.430 we're indebted to his grace. Then the next layer up 0:10:54.429 --> 0:10:57.350 is that man is not an animal that. Okay, so 0:10:57.350 --> 0:11:01.870 creator creature distinction, but mankind is fundamentally different than the 0:11:01.870 --> 0:11:05.270 rest of the creatures that we are made in God's image. 0:11:05.309 --> 0:11:09.670 We're moral creatures. We have vision and purpose, self reflectiveness, 0:11:10.230 --> 0:11:13.950 and we have this capacity to rightly order our desires 0:11:13.950 --> 0:11:18.790 that animals are governed by instincts and desires, but mankind 0:11:18.790 --> 0:11:23.150 can be governed by vision and submission and and goals 0:11:23.150 --> 0:11:26.630 and dreams and purpose. And so man is not an animal. 0:11:26.630 --> 0:11:29.710 So he has to have discipline or be disciplined, that 0:11:29.710 --> 0:11:33.790 we discipline our desires, we discipline our bodies, we order 0:11:33.790 --> 0:11:36.750 our loves. And downstream from that we find discipline, right? 0:11:36.790 --> 0:11:38.990 So if I want to eat six donuts for breakfast, 0:11:38.990 --> 0:11:41.470 but more than that, I want to be an attentive, 0:11:41.510 --> 0:11:44.589 hardworking employee who doesn't have a stomach ache. Then I 0:11:44.630 --> 0:11:47.030 say no to the lesser desire in favor of the 0:11:47.030 --> 0:11:50.170 greater desire. And so that's a discipline. Then you layer 0:11:50.170 --> 0:11:52.730 up from that is that man is not a child. 0:11:52.730 --> 0:11:55.890 He's responsible. And so responsibility. This is the opposite of 0:11:55.890 --> 0:11:58.770 what Adam does in the garden. When he sins and 0:11:58.770 --> 0:12:01.530 is confronted by God. He says, that woman you gave me. 0:12:01.570 --> 0:12:05.650 He blamed shifts. That's childish behavior. He blames the context. 0:12:05.690 --> 0:12:08.690 He blames the environment. You know, grown men will blame 0:12:08.690 --> 0:12:11.250 their lust on what the woman was wearing or their blame, 0:12:11.250 --> 0:12:13.730 their fit of rage on the fact that their five 0:12:13.730 --> 0:12:16.450 year old wasn't listening to them. And they blame, blame, blame. 0:12:16.929 --> 0:12:23.010 Whereas when we embrace responsibility, we own ourselves. We recognize 0:12:23.010 --> 0:12:26.610 that self conquest is part of our, uh, the task 0:12:26.610 --> 0:12:29.770 of masculinity. And then the final layer, the top one 0:12:29.770 --> 0:12:32.050 is what I've called chivalry. That man is not woman. 0:12:32.050 --> 0:12:35.449 So be chivalrous. And I like that old word because 0:12:35.450 --> 0:12:38.570 it's masculine coded, but it also has to do with honor. 0:12:38.570 --> 0:12:41.090 And I get that from first Peter three seven, which 0:12:41.090 --> 0:12:43.770 says that husbands are to live with their wives and 0:12:43.770 --> 0:12:47.600 understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.080 and that Peter roots that in the vessel the the 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.200 body difference that because man is stronger, he has this 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:58.840 additional responsibility to understand and honor his wife. And so 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:04.160 that masculinity pyramid is humility, discipline, responsibility and chivalry. And 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.599 I do think that, you know, those first three layers 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.800 we have in common with females. And I think that 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.560 some of what I want to emphasize is that there's 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.400 a danger in overemphasizing the male female difference, but there's 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:20.840 also danger under emphasizing it like the progressive left has done. 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.880 But when Adam sees even the garden, his reaction is 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.720 bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. Finally, one 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.760 who corresponds to me. And so I think when we 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.200 understand the the lower levels of the pyramid first, that 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.240 then frees us up to engage the discussion about chivalry. 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:41.680 And we now carry our strength with humility, discipline, and responsibility. 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.800 And that leads us to honor the other vessel, the 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:46.080 other sex. 0:13:47.020 --> 0:13:48.820 I think that pyramid is going to help a lot 0:13:48.860 --> 0:13:52.860 of folks, uh, in distinguishing, you know what this is 0:13:52.860 --> 0:13:55.620 all about. Uh, we'll talk about some of those later 0:13:55.620 --> 0:14:01.300 in the program. Obviously has the label of toxic masculinity, uh, 0:14:01.460 --> 0:14:08.380 harmed how men express emotion or reject anything that that resembles, uh, 0:14:08.380 --> 0:14:10.140 you know, some stereotype. 0:14:11.460 --> 0:14:15.260 Yeah. I think the, the discourse around toxic masculinity really 0:14:15.260 --> 0:14:19.580 misses the mark because toxicity is about excess, right? You 0:14:19.580 --> 0:14:22.580 can drink too much water and get water poisoning. You 0:14:22.580 --> 0:14:25.620 can also have a toxic level of fentanyl at a 0:14:25.620 --> 0:14:29.020 much smaller doses. And so some of like the chauvinist 0:14:29.020 --> 0:14:34.140 or misogynistic or womanizing type men you see get labeled toxic, masculine, 0:14:34.460 --> 0:14:38.220 as though their problem is that they're excessively masculine. And 0:14:38.260 --> 0:14:40.220 I think that totally misses the mark. I think they're 0:14:40.220 --> 0:14:44.420 actually insufficiently masculine, that they're anemic. They're not toxic, that 0:14:44.420 --> 0:14:48.890 they lack humility, discipline, responsibility and chivalry. And so rather 0:14:48.890 --> 0:14:53.130 than warning men about toxic masculinity, I'd much rather warn 0:14:53.130 --> 0:14:57.850 them about anemic masculinity. The abdication, the passivity, the haughtiness, 0:14:58.250 --> 0:15:01.370 the lack of capacity to honor the other. And I 0:15:01.370 --> 0:15:03.770 do think that part of what you're seeing in culture 0:15:03.770 --> 0:15:09.530 is a reaction to the liberalism that tried to feminize 0:15:09.530 --> 0:15:13.210 women and kind of promote this interchangeability of the sexes. 0:15:13.490 --> 0:15:16.410 And there's kind of this resurgence, especially among Gen Z, 0:15:16.570 --> 0:15:21.330 towards moving back to that old masculine stereotype of men 0:15:21.370 --> 0:15:25.370 don't have emotions, men suppress them, and men don't need 0:15:25.370 --> 0:15:28.290 friends and men don't need connection. And so I do 0:15:28.290 --> 0:15:30.850 think there is a flip flop thing happening in culture 0:15:30.850 --> 0:15:33.810 where this new promotion of kind of the the John 0:15:33.810 --> 0:15:37.850 Wayne cowboy type masculinity that's really incongruent with the person 0:15:37.850 --> 0:15:41.770 of Jesus who has compassion and his gut and weeps 0:15:41.770 --> 0:15:44.710 at the womb of his friend Lazarus and has meaningful 0:15:44.710 --> 0:15:48.190 friendships and connections. And so I think the whole toxic 0:15:48.190 --> 0:15:51.870 masculinity thing is a reaction to the third wave feminism stuff. 0:15:51.870 --> 0:15:55.150 And I'd much rather cast a positive vision than just 0:15:55.150 --> 0:15:58.270 critique the harmful visions that are out there in culture. 0:15:58.590 --> 0:16:02.590 Yeah. How have you seen a lack of authentic masculinity 0:16:02.630 --> 0:16:05.710 harm churches and, and our marriages? 0:16:06.870 --> 0:16:09.230 Yeah. The point you shared earlier at the very beginning 0:16:09.230 --> 0:16:11.510 of the program is this man who's at the gym 0:16:11.670 --> 0:16:16.350 abdicating his responsibility as a man because he's neglecting his wife. 0:16:16.710 --> 0:16:20.550 I do think that that passivity or that lack of 0:16:20.550 --> 0:16:24.230 use of power is a huge problem, where a lot 0:16:24.230 --> 0:16:26.110 of the guys I talk to and a lot of 0:16:26.110 --> 0:16:27.910 the wives I end up talking to, to the church, 0:16:27.950 --> 0:16:31.470 a lot of what they're suffering from is not abuse 0:16:31.590 --> 0:16:35.710 from men, but abdication from men. The lack of interest, 0:16:35.710 --> 0:16:39.590 the lack of engagement, the lack of emotional availability, the 0:16:39.590 --> 0:16:42.830 lack of connection. And I do think that, you know, 0:16:42.900 --> 0:16:45.500 misuse of power, abuse of power is a huge problem. 0:16:45.500 --> 0:16:47.660 And I do think that it's probably more common than 0:16:47.660 --> 0:16:50.340 a lot of evangelicals understand it to be. But I 0:16:50.340 --> 0:16:54.820 think more so just on a percentage basis, the disengaged man, 0:16:54.860 --> 0:17:01.180 the aloof man, causes more issues than the abusive man. 0:17:01.180 --> 0:17:05.340 Just broadly speaking, both are huge problems and both require attention. 0:17:05.340 --> 0:17:08.379 But I think those kind of weak marriages where wives 0:17:08.380 --> 0:17:10.580 don't feel attuned to, they don't feel connected, they don't 0:17:10.580 --> 0:17:12.940 feel cared for, they don't feel cherished and nourished. Like 0:17:12.940 --> 0:17:18.940 Ephesians five talks about, those poor marriages lead to poor parenting, 0:17:18.940 --> 0:17:21.980 which leads to weak churches. And I do think same 0:17:21.980 --> 0:17:25.100 with pastors and churches. You know, I just speaking about myself, 0:17:25.100 --> 0:17:27.699 I have way more of a proclivity to be a 0:17:27.700 --> 0:17:33.460 passive pastor than an abusive pastor to allow and tolerate 0:17:33.460 --> 0:17:37.379 what I shouldn't allow and tolerate than to be domineering 0:17:37.380 --> 0:17:40.459 in authoritarian. And so some of it is you got 0:17:40.460 --> 0:17:42.439 to know yourself as a man and go. Are you 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.719 inclined towards hyper aggressiveness? Are you inclined towards passivity? And 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.600 I think most men, if they're honest, are probably inclined 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:51.080 towards passivity over against being domineering. 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:52.119 HMM. 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:57.520 Can you describe one situation where you were a passive 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.680 pastor and you saw it and you thought, no, I 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:00.880 need to jump in here? 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:09.280 Yeah, I think especially around relational dysfunction or emotional, uh, 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:14.920 unhealth in leaders where there's reactivity or there is hostility 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:20.120 or there is, uh, kind of conspiratorial behavior and you 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.119 kind of sell yourself on, oh, if I just love them, 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.639 they'll get healthier over time and it'll play out well, 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:30.880 as opposed to, uh, rebuking and reproving like the New 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.280 Testament tells me to as a pastor. And so I 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:38.959 think a nervousness to engage or intercede or protect or 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:43.150 defend when someone is relationally unhealthy or when they're when 0:18:43.150 --> 0:18:45.470 they're sinning, to try to kind of go, okay, I 0:18:45.470 --> 0:18:47.670 don't want to go yanking out all the weeds because 0:18:47.670 --> 0:18:51.030 that might disrupt the roots of the good plants. And 0:18:51.030 --> 0:18:54.149 I think that almost every time that ends up biting me, 0:18:54.869 --> 0:18:57.630 and I've kind of talked myself into a passivity when 0:18:57.630 --> 0:19:00.869 I should be out there confronting people and for the 0:19:00.869 --> 0:19:02.310 greater good of the whole church. 0:19:03.030 --> 0:19:08.870 And that's difficult. It's difficult, especially in the church setting. 0:19:08.869 --> 0:19:12.150 But I hear you, man, and I think you're right. Well, 0:19:12.150 --> 0:19:16.750 let's talk about sex. How does an authentically masculine man 0:19:16.790 --> 0:19:18.190 view sex? 0:19:19.790 --> 0:19:22.790 Yeah, I think most basically, we have to understand that 0:19:22.790 --> 0:19:27.550 sex is defined and determined by God. And so the 0:19:27.550 --> 0:19:31.310 common narrative nowadays is that sex is just like shaking hands, 0:19:31.310 --> 0:19:33.950 that it's just two bodies touching. What's the big deal? 0:19:33.950 --> 0:19:37.389 That it's just a, a physical act that's a liken 0:19:37.390 --> 0:19:40.690 to hunger. You know, it's an appetite. It's animal, it's natural. 0:19:40.730 --> 0:19:44.330 It's it's there's nothing sacred or significant to it. And 0:19:44.330 --> 0:19:45.609 so I think the first thing we have to do 0:19:45.609 --> 0:19:49.810 is recognize God's design for sex. That it's this mutually 0:19:50.170 --> 0:19:53.490 and connecting and benefiting connection between a man and a 0:19:53.490 --> 0:19:56.889 woman exclusively in the covenant of marriage. And one of 0:19:56.890 --> 0:19:59.250 the things that I try to tell guys in particular 0:19:59.250 --> 0:20:01.690 on the younger side, is that one of the worst 0:20:01.690 --> 0:20:03.890 things you can do to your girlfriend is treat her 0:20:03.890 --> 0:20:07.850 like a wife that don't ask your girlfriend to do 0:20:07.890 --> 0:20:11.490 wife stuff. Don't ask your girlfriend and don't. That means 0:20:11.650 --> 0:20:14.250 don't share a bank account. That means don't make her 0:20:14.250 --> 0:20:16.889 your accountability partner. That means don't move her across the 0:20:16.890 --> 0:20:19.050 country with you. It means don't have sex with her. 0:20:19.450 --> 0:20:26.170 And so that women, especially biologically speaking, deserve and need 0:20:26.210 --> 0:20:32.850 to be given the safety that covenant sex delivers, that emotional, legal, 0:20:33.290 --> 0:20:38.250 public financial connection because women bear in their bodies the 0:20:38.310 --> 0:20:41.150 The consequences of sex. And I mean, consequences are not negatively, 0:20:41.150 --> 0:20:43.830 but positively. You know, when a woman gets pregnant, she's 0:20:43.830 --> 0:20:45.910 way more vulnerable than a man who doesn't get pregnant. 0:20:45.910 --> 0:20:51.230 And I think that connected, covenanted one flesh union is 0:20:51.230 --> 0:20:53.869 the proper context for sex. And when you look at 0:20:53.869 --> 0:20:58.229 the literature on the surveys of it, you see that actually, uh, 0:20:58.230 --> 0:21:01.830 that type of committed relationship sex is actually better for 0:21:01.830 --> 0:21:04.790 women than it is for women who have kind of 0:21:04.830 --> 0:21:08.189 hookups like, uh. And so I think there's a design 0:21:08.190 --> 0:21:11.350 there that we receive that there is a one flesh 0:21:11.590 --> 0:21:18.149 that covers us physically, financially, spiritually, relationally, publicly and legally. 0:21:18.150 --> 0:21:20.350 And that's the proper context for that. And so if 0:21:20.350 --> 0:21:23.710 you care about this woman, then you'll want to offer 0:21:23.710 --> 0:21:25.910 your body to her and ask her to offer her 0:21:25.910 --> 0:21:29.550 body to you in the context of a warm, connected, 0:21:29.550 --> 0:21:33.990 mutually enjoying, covenantal connection and not in some other context. 0:21:34.910 --> 0:21:39.300 Yeah, that's that's so, so needed in today's culture. You know, 0:21:39.340 --> 0:21:42.900 some research has indicated that those couples who live together 0:21:42.940 --> 0:21:47.580 have sex together before marriage are far more likely to 0:21:47.740 --> 0:21:52.540 not get married, and consequently go through the pain of 0:21:52.540 --> 0:21:56.860 a broken relationship. Uh, God's plans are not there to 0:21:56.900 --> 0:22:01.300 make life hard on us. They're they're there to help 0:22:01.300 --> 0:22:03.420 us have the best possible life, right? 0:22:03.940 --> 0:22:06.820 Amen. Amen. There's one study I read recently that talked 0:22:06.820 --> 0:22:11.859 about in a noncommitted hookup situation, that women only experience 0:22:11.859 --> 0:22:14.500 the most pleasurable part of sex 10% of the time, 0:22:15.020 --> 0:22:18.660 which is a pretty poor numeric thing. And it goes 0:22:18.660 --> 0:22:22.580 much higher in the context of a committed relationship. And 0:22:22.580 --> 0:22:25.100 I think it goes even higher when a husband is 0:22:25.100 --> 0:22:28.419 devoted to cherishing and nourishing this woman, and not just 0:22:28.420 --> 0:22:30.899 using her body. And so I think even within the 0:22:30.900 --> 0:22:36.260 covenant of marriage, husbands who don't cherish and nourish, broadly speaking, 0:22:36.260 --> 0:22:39.440 or even give attention to their wife. And her body 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:42.440 can be selfish, even in the context of marriage, rather 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:45.840 than the kind of first Corinthians seven, this mutually giving 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:50.359 that's mutually encouraging and mutually satisfying. And so one of 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:52.000 the things I've heard said before, you know, is good 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:54.440 married sex begins in the kitchen. And what they're getting 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:58.720 at is this you're engaged in serving and attentive, not 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:01.600 aloof in the whole of the relationship. And I hope 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:05.600 that men recognize that sex is not just something they 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:08.080 get from their wife. That whole framing of it is, 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:11.280 I think, awful and dehumanizing, but it's something that they 0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:17.080 do together to cement and connect their covenant relationship. And hopefully, 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:19.720 and ideally in a way that brings about children and 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:21.520 allows you to pass on the faith and yourself to 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:22.600 the next generation. 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:27.160 Yeah. God's plan is always the best plan. It's just 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:30.320 that simple. What what are some of the ways that 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:34.160 men can genuinely live out their God given design? 0:23:35.470 --> 0:23:38.510 I think, especially this next generation, one of the ways 0:23:38.510 --> 0:23:41.149 that we can shine like stars in a dark generation 0:23:41.150 --> 0:23:44.550 is to work really hard and to resist the sin 0:23:44.590 --> 0:23:48.030 of sloth. I think the doomscrolling, the social media, the 0:23:48.030 --> 0:23:52.189 permanent dopamine loop that you can find yourself in, I 0:23:52.190 --> 0:23:55.510 think as Christian men recognize that God has prepared good 0:23:55.510 --> 0:23:57.869 things for them to do ahead of time, that we 0:23:57.869 --> 0:24:01.390 should walk in them, and to just actually believe that 0:24:01.390 --> 0:24:03.990 God has a design for me. And I know when 0:24:03.990 --> 0:24:07.390 you're younger, the specificity of that's not always clear. What 0:24:07.390 --> 0:24:11.149 exactly is my career? What exactly is my role? Generally speaking, 0:24:11.150 --> 0:24:12.950 we know we want to work and serve the common 0:24:12.950 --> 0:24:17.310 good and add value to society and love and serve 0:24:17.310 --> 0:24:19.750 our wife and kids. And I think as we grow 0:24:19.750 --> 0:24:22.990 in competence, we get more confident in our careers. But 0:24:22.990 --> 0:24:25.669 I do think that the first problem we see in 0:24:25.670 --> 0:24:27.750 the Scripture is Genesis two. There's no man to work 0:24:27.750 --> 0:24:30.550 the ground. And so God puts a man in the 0:24:30.550 --> 0:24:32.790 garden to work it. And then the next problem is 0:24:32.790 --> 0:24:35.490 there's no helper fit for him. And so he creates 0:24:35.530 --> 0:24:38.889 a woman. And I think that Genesis one subdue and dominion, 0:24:38.890 --> 0:24:43.090 which corresponds with work and making culture and cultivating and 0:24:43.090 --> 0:24:45.449 creating value and that fruitful and multiply, which has to 0:24:45.450 --> 0:24:48.610 do with the home. I do think that the work 0:24:48.609 --> 0:24:51.410 and the home are two big parts of a man's identity, 0:24:51.410 --> 0:24:53.650 and either of those things are not going well. Men 0:24:53.650 --> 0:24:57.090 tend to really struggle. And so I think going, God 0:24:57.090 --> 0:24:59.290 has created me to work and work hard. God's created 0:24:59.290 --> 0:25:01.929 me to love and love deeply. And I want to 0:25:01.930 --> 0:25:04.210 lean into those two things as as hard as I 0:25:04.210 --> 0:25:10.210 can and not waste my life just scrolling and meandering aimlessly. 0:25:10.250 --> 0:25:12.570 Not sure what to do, but to get out there 0:25:12.570 --> 0:25:14.250 and put your hand to the plow like I like 0:25:14.290 --> 0:25:16.969 that Ecclesiastes verse. Whatever your hand finds to do, do 0:25:16.970 --> 0:25:19.130 it with all your might. You don't want to leave 0:25:19.130 --> 0:25:21.130 any meat on the bone, but get out there and 0:25:21.130 --> 0:25:24.369 try to do great things for God, for his glory, 0:25:24.369 --> 0:25:26.130 and because he loves you as your son. 0:25:32.890 --> 0:25:35.760 Thanks for joining us for the Building Relationships with Doctor 0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:40.399 Gary Chapman podcast. Go to Building relationships.us to see a 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:43.720 list of seminar locations coming up for Doctor Chapman and 0:25:43.720 --> 0:25:46.840 find out about our featured resource, the book by Seth 0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:52.240 Trout Authentic Masculinity. Just go to Building relationships.us or visit 0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:54.800 us at five Love languages.com. 0:25:57.680 --> 0:26:01.520 Seth, you outline the five roles of manhood in the book. 0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:05.639 Let's go through each of these and explain those roles. 0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:09.280 Yeah. So the book is organized in two pyramids. That 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:12.919 first one is that four layer masculine virtues. The second 0:26:12.920 --> 0:26:16.480 half of the book is the five layer masculine roles. 0:26:16.480 --> 0:26:20.159 And these do the order does matter here. And I 0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:22.760 think that the baseline here. So the bottom of the 0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:25.399 pyramid of the second pyramid is sun. And the reason 0:26:25.400 --> 0:26:28.600 that's first is you're a sun before you're even born 0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:30.600 in the womb, you have a mother and a father 0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:35.060 and you have all this generational baggage, you're coming with you. 0:26:35.100 --> 0:26:37.780 That's that's coming with you. And some of that baggage 0:26:37.780 --> 0:26:40.540 is great. You know, when the airport loses your luggage, 0:26:40.540 --> 0:26:42.300 you're mad about it. Because I was like, I wanted 0:26:42.300 --> 0:26:45.659 that baggage. And some of that baggage is obviously negative, 0:26:45.700 --> 0:26:49.859 you know, negative patterns of relating negative family history. Some 0:26:49.859 --> 0:26:52.899 of that's genetic. Some of that is relational, you know, 0:26:52.940 --> 0:26:55.619 nature nurture. It's kind of all in play. But the 0:26:55.619 --> 0:26:57.780 first task of the son is you're going, I want 0:26:57.820 --> 0:27:00.820 to steward my family's story and be cognizant of the 0:27:00.820 --> 0:27:03.580 ways I want to break generational patterns, cognizant of the 0:27:03.580 --> 0:27:06.820 ways I want to maintain generational patterns and really kind 0:27:06.820 --> 0:27:09.860 of get clear about what am I grateful for in 0:27:09.859 --> 0:27:12.060 my family history, and what am I grieved by in 0:27:12.060 --> 0:27:15.540 my family history? And be mindful of the fact that, 0:27:15.580 --> 0:27:17.660 you know, Jesus might be in your heart, but grandpa's 0:27:17.660 --> 0:27:22.139 in your bones, as Peter Cicero has said before, and 0:27:22.140 --> 0:27:25.620 I do think a lot of men, young men are 0:27:25.619 --> 0:27:28.899 under fathered or fathered. And this idea of making dad 0:27:28.900 --> 0:27:31.060 proud is kind of disgusting to them because they don't 0:27:31.130 --> 0:27:34.409 respect their dad. But I do want men to feel 0:27:34.410 --> 0:27:37.649 like one of my tasks is to become the type 0:27:37.650 --> 0:27:40.449 of man that a wise man would be proud of. 0:27:40.730 --> 0:27:42.730 Even if that's not my dad, I want to be 0:27:42.730 --> 0:27:44.770 that type of man. That's a lot of what you 0:27:44.770 --> 0:27:47.530 get in the Proverbs is, you know, a son can, 0:27:47.570 --> 0:27:49.930 you know, bring stress to his mother or bring shame 0:27:49.930 --> 0:27:51.570 to his father. We don't want to be that guy. 0:27:51.570 --> 0:27:54.930 We want to be a guy who either maintains the 0:27:54.930 --> 0:27:58.250 honor that our family name has, or redeems the family 0:27:58.250 --> 0:28:01.409 name and begin it to associate with good things. So 0:28:01.410 --> 0:28:05.490 that's like the son layer. The next layer up is brother. 0:28:05.490 --> 0:28:07.530 And so a lot of people are brothers in the 0:28:07.530 --> 0:28:10.690 womb because they're not the firstborn. But what I think 0:28:10.690 --> 0:28:12.770 in that chapter I'm really trying to do is what 0:28:12.810 --> 0:28:17.170 first Peter or first Timothy five says, which is see 0:28:17.210 --> 0:28:20.890 relate to younger women as sisters in all purity, uh, 0:28:20.890 --> 0:28:24.050 and the younger brothers as and likewise. And so that 0:28:24.050 --> 0:28:26.050 chapter is really kind of doing two things. One, it's 0:28:26.090 --> 0:28:29.930 on sexual purity, how to not objectify women, but to 0:28:30.109 --> 0:28:33.510 objectify women, to see them as subjects and as sisters, 0:28:33.950 --> 0:28:37.910 and to see that lust, especially within the church, is disgusting. 0:28:37.910 --> 0:28:40.790 It's incestuous. It's not just something to be managed, but 0:28:40.790 --> 0:28:43.670 it's actually something to hate and to want to eradicate 0:28:43.670 --> 0:28:46.910 from our very souls. And then, brother, likewise, I want 0:28:46.910 --> 0:28:51.190 men to be spurred on to have fraternal connection and 0:28:51.190 --> 0:28:53.710 have that iron sharpens iron relationship where they're not just 0:28:53.710 --> 0:28:56.550 having friends, but they're having a brotherhood within the church. 0:28:56.550 --> 0:28:59.430 So that son and brother, the third layer up is maker, 0:28:59.430 --> 0:29:01.710 which is all about a man, a man's work and 0:29:01.710 --> 0:29:03.790 his money. And how do we manage money and how 0:29:03.790 --> 0:29:07.550 do we manage our energy as workers in the kingdom? 0:29:07.910 --> 0:29:09.950 But then also just for the common good, how do 0:29:09.950 --> 0:29:12.510 we leverage ourselves in a way that blesses other people? 0:29:13.070 --> 0:29:15.910 And the next layer up is husband, which is largely 0:29:15.910 --> 0:29:17.870 based on Ephesians five. What does it look like to 0:29:17.910 --> 0:29:21.469 cherish and nourish a wife, to anticipate her needs, to 0:29:21.510 --> 0:29:23.910 treat her as precious, to understand her, to be a 0:29:23.910 --> 0:29:26.750 student of her, to image Christ in the way he 0:29:26.750 --> 0:29:29.540 loves the church. And in the top of that pyramid 0:29:29.580 --> 0:29:33.060 is father. And that's not to say that biological fatherhood 0:29:33.060 --> 0:29:36.580 is like the apex of life. But ideally, first you 0:29:36.620 --> 0:29:38.660 deal with your son stuff, your brother stuff, make your stuff, 0:29:38.700 --> 0:29:41.500 husband stuff. And then when you become a father, you 0:29:41.500 --> 0:29:44.820 start to focus on the next generation and passing yourself 0:29:44.820 --> 0:29:48.540 on to others. And that's obviously not just biological, but 0:29:48.540 --> 0:29:52.860 also spiritual. As we disciple and aspire to be elder 0:29:52.860 --> 0:29:55.300 qualified men, even if we never are in the office 0:29:55.300 --> 0:29:55.900 of elder. 0:29:56.900 --> 0:29:59.540 I really like the way you do that because it's 0:29:59.540 --> 0:30:02.780 it's covering all of life, you know, starting off with 0:30:02.820 --> 0:30:06.100 being a son and perhaps ending up being a father. 0:30:06.100 --> 0:30:09.500 But it covers the whole of life. And in those chapters, 0:30:09.500 --> 0:30:14.100 of course, you deal more intently with, uh, specifically, you know, 0:30:14.140 --> 0:30:19.500 Christian lifestyles. What does an authentic, uh, what does authentic 0:30:19.500 --> 0:30:22.940 manhood look like as men relate to women? 0:30:24.260 --> 0:30:27.180 Yeah. I think especially in the church, that sister metaphor, 0:30:27.180 --> 0:30:31.880 I think is really important that we relate as siblings 0:30:31.880 --> 0:30:34.720 who have the same father and have the same family. 0:30:35.080 --> 0:30:37.920 And really, I think relating to women is kind of 0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:40.160 like a walk before you run here thing. And I 0:30:40.160 --> 0:30:44.120 think walking has to do with honoring the other with 0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:49.000 pure hearts and pure eyes. Not dehumanizing, not objectifying. But 0:30:49.000 --> 0:30:53.400 there ends up being like that playful sibling friendship banter 0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:56.000 thing that I would love all men to have in 0:30:56.000 --> 0:30:59.480 the church with their sisters in Christ. And I think 0:30:59.480 --> 0:31:04.400 that going back to the masculine virtues of humility, discipline, 0:31:04.400 --> 0:31:07.640 and responsibility and chivalry, that when I bring that into 0:31:07.640 --> 0:31:13.120 my relationships with women now, I am able to have humility, 0:31:13.160 --> 0:31:16.920 not presuming on the other, but cherishing the other, and 0:31:16.920 --> 0:31:19.640 recognizing that God designed them just like God designed me. 0:31:20.000 --> 0:31:23.360 I'm having self-control. I'm displaying my desires. I'm not blaming 0:31:23.360 --> 0:31:26.400 them for my sin, and I'm taking responsibility for the 0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:29.660 ways that I have sinned. And I'm also broadening my 0:31:29.660 --> 0:31:32.620 umbrella such that I can care for them as sisters 0:31:32.620 --> 0:31:35.219 and relate to them in that way. And so I 0:31:35.220 --> 0:31:37.420 think at a minimum, we're talking about sexual purity here, 0:31:37.420 --> 0:31:40.300 but at a maximum we're looking for like a positive sibling, 0:31:40.780 --> 0:31:44.740 a playful, connected friendship that I think honors them and 0:31:45.060 --> 0:31:47.740 treats them as sisters, the sisters in Christ that they 0:31:47.740 --> 0:31:48.380 actually are. 0:31:49.300 --> 0:31:51.900 You know, I think that particular section in the book 0:31:51.980 --> 0:31:55.500 is going to be super, super helpful for young, not 0:31:55.500 --> 0:31:58.700 for young men to start with, but for men of 0:31:58.700 --> 0:32:03.820 any age. Now you discuss male friendships. You just mentioned friendships, 0:32:03.820 --> 0:32:08.620 but you discuss male friendships and you introduce the rails 0:32:08.660 --> 0:32:15.660 RAILS framework for building stronger relationships. What is that concept 0:32:15.660 --> 0:32:17.620 and why is that concept so important? 0:32:18.780 --> 0:32:21.100 Yeah, one of the jokes I've heard before is that 0:32:21.100 --> 0:32:24.380 the biggest miracle Jesus ever committed was, you know, being 0:32:24.380 --> 0:32:27.650 in his 30s and having 12 close friends. And I 0:32:27.650 --> 0:32:30.650 think that a lot of men feel that pressure, especially 0:32:30.650 --> 0:32:33.730 as you have a job, you have kids, you have 0:32:33.730 --> 0:32:36.690 a wife, and a lot of men tend to pull 0:32:36.690 --> 0:32:39.650 back on their male friendships. I've I've seen it described by, 0:32:39.650 --> 0:32:42.450 I think it was the National Health Service, the epidemic 0:32:42.450 --> 0:32:45.090 of male loneliness. And I think a lot of guys 0:32:45.090 --> 0:32:48.330 are going. It feels like I have to become a 0:32:48.330 --> 0:32:50.530 worse husband and a worse father in order to have 0:32:50.530 --> 0:32:52.690 male friendships, and I'm not willing to do that. So 0:32:52.690 --> 0:32:56.330 I'll just forgo the friendships and what I was trying 0:32:56.330 --> 0:33:01.290 to do with the rails acronym, which is rhythm, affinity, intensity, longevity, 0:33:01.290 --> 0:33:05.090 and spirituality is try to help guys see opportunities. They 0:33:05.090 --> 0:33:08.170 have to improve their friendships kind of one notch at 0:33:08.170 --> 0:33:10.650 a time. So if you have rhythm, you know, you 0:33:10.650 --> 0:33:13.010 maybe you see the guy at church regularly, or you 0:33:13.010 --> 0:33:15.490 see the guy at kids drop off at school regularly, 0:33:15.850 --> 0:33:18.250 or you see them while your kids are playing flag 0:33:18.250 --> 0:33:21.130 football regularly. You already have rhythm. What's a way that 0:33:21.130 --> 0:33:23.690 you could add affinity to that? You know, let's go 0:33:23.690 --> 0:33:27.510 grab a movie together. Let's get a meal together. Intensity 0:33:27.510 --> 0:33:30.270 is really about sharing of the emotional life. You know, 0:33:30.310 --> 0:33:34.190 your hopes, your fears, your dreams, your concerns. There's obviously 0:33:34.190 --> 0:33:37.990 a different layers of that intensity. You know, there's sharing 0:33:38.190 --> 0:33:40.670 about your shame and your regrets. I do think every 0:33:40.670 --> 0:33:43.310 man needs to at least have a couple guys that 0:33:43.310 --> 0:33:47.030 have access to all the information in their heart, both 0:33:47.030 --> 0:33:49.870 the positive and the negative. And then longevity, something you 0:33:49.870 --> 0:33:51.910 can't just decide to do. It takes a long time 0:33:51.910 --> 0:33:54.590 to grow old friends. But I remember meeting these three 0:33:54.630 --> 0:33:56.790 guys in their 70s who had been friends for 50 0:33:56.790 --> 0:33:59.190 years and just asking, how did it happen? And they said, well, 0:33:59.190 --> 0:34:01.550 it was a value and a priority to us. We 0:34:01.590 --> 0:34:04.750 decided that we would say no to job opportunities that 0:34:04.750 --> 0:34:08.430 require relocation because we value our friendship. Uh, not as 0:34:08.430 --> 0:34:10.950 much as we value Christ or our wife, but we 0:34:10.950 --> 0:34:14.149 also value it high. And so going, okay, so if 0:34:14.390 --> 0:34:16.589 longevity is one of my values, then that's going to 0:34:16.989 --> 0:34:20.350 be a factor in my decision making and spirituality is 0:34:20.350 --> 0:34:22.830 praying together, you know, Bible study together, things like that. 0:34:23.230 --> 0:34:27.299 And so my hope is that, uh, as guys have connections, 0:34:27.340 --> 0:34:29.779 like one of my good buddies now, I'd see him 0:34:29.780 --> 0:34:32.620 at church. Uh, we've been friends a long time, but 0:34:32.620 --> 0:34:34.780 he invited me to start doing jiu jitsu with him, 0:34:34.780 --> 0:34:39.100 and now I see him with more regularity because we 0:34:39.140 --> 0:34:41.899 have this affinity, like we have a shared hobby, and 0:34:41.900 --> 0:34:47.020 our friendship is enriching because of that choice. And so, uh, 0:34:47.020 --> 0:34:48.660 that whole rail section is just kind of a way 0:34:48.660 --> 0:34:50.820 for guys who feel stuck on how do I improve 0:34:50.820 --> 0:34:53.020 my friendships to go? What are some small steps I 0:34:53.020 --> 0:34:56.140 could take that are not going to impinge on my 0:34:56.140 --> 0:34:57.700 ability to be a husband and a father? 0:34:58.100 --> 0:35:01.580 Yeah. It reminds me of an experience I had when 0:35:01.580 --> 0:35:05.419 I was writing a book on cross-cultural friendships, and I 0:35:05.420 --> 0:35:09.180 stopped in a restaurant and saw a gentleman, uh, of 0:35:09.219 --> 0:35:12.259 a different race. And, uh, I said to him, may 0:35:12.260 --> 0:35:13.900 I ask you a personal question? I told him I 0:35:13.900 --> 0:35:16.939 was writing a book on cross-cultural friendships. I said, could 0:35:16.940 --> 0:35:21.140 you give me the name of, uh, a personal friend 0:35:21.140 --> 0:35:24.960 of yours who is a different race from your race. 0:35:25.880 --> 0:35:28.960 And he thought a moment and then he said, I 0:35:29.000 --> 0:35:32.640 don't have a close personal friend of my own race. Wow. 0:35:32.680 --> 0:35:35.759 And I think the reality is there are many men 0:35:35.800 --> 0:35:39.640 that do not have a friendship, you know. So that 0:35:39.640 --> 0:35:44.480 that area is so important. So it's just, man, I 0:35:44.480 --> 0:35:46.080 wish men could understand that. 0:35:46.640 --> 0:35:49.279 Yeah. I want men to recognize that they're valuable and 0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:51.919 they should. It's important for them to be known and 0:35:51.920 --> 0:35:54.120 seen and loved by other men. And I do think 0:35:54.120 --> 0:35:57.040 that David and Jonathan picture we get is totally pushed 0:35:57.040 --> 0:36:00.560 aside in a lot of Christian circles, because there's so 0:36:00.560 --> 0:36:03.279 many men who are deadbeat fathers or aloof husbands. It 0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:06.040 kind of feels like, well, I can't really be investing 0:36:06.040 --> 0:36:08.640 in friendship because I stink at this other stuff. And 0:36:08.640 --> 0:36:11.720 so yeah, I have empathy for that. But I men 0:36:11.719 --> 0:36:13.879 knowing and loving each other and sharpening each other is 0:36:13.880 --> 0:36:14.480 a big deal. 0:36:15.480 --> 0:36:19.320 Seth, we mentioned earlier that work is a central part 0:36:19.320 --> 0:36:22.469 of men's lives. What does the Bible say about how 0:36:22.469 --> 0:36:25.830 a man should approach being an entrepreneur and a provider? 0:36:27.110 --> 0:36:30.630 Yeah. Like I mentioned earlier in Genesis chapter two, there's 0:36:30.630 --> 0:36:32.870 no man to work the ground. So God put the 0:36:32.870 --> 0:36:36.109 man in the garden to work it and keep it. 0:36:36.110 --> 0:36:40.350 And I do think that's pre-eminently looking at his role 0:36:40.350 --> 0:36:43.750 to serve and protect in that garden, which he fails 0:36:43.750 --> 0:36:46.790 to do when the serpent approaches. Eve, obviously. But I 0:36:46.790 --> 0:36:49.550 think that the word subdue and dominion are pretty rich. 0:36:49.550 --> 0:36:52.310 We get in Genesis one and subdue has to do 0:36:52.310 --> 0:36:56.589 with applying creative force. It's like kneading bread, treading grapes. 0:36:56.830 --> 0:37:00.870 It's applying creative pressure. It's taking what was possible and 0:37:00.870 --> 0:37:04.910 making it actual. And that provision or that protection I 0:37:04.910 --> 0:37:08.830 think you get in Genesis two is repeated through a 0:37:08.830 --> 0:37:10.590 lot of the assumptions you see in the New Testament. 0:37:10.630 --> 0:37:13.390 You know, if a man does not provide for his family, 0:37:13.430 --> 0:37:15.109 he's worse than an unbeliever and should be cut off. 0:37:15.110 --> 0:37:17.750 And I think that verse is mostly talking about caring 0:37:17.750 --> 0:37:20.190 for your aging parents or aging people in your circle, 0:37:20.190 --> 0:37:23.969 not necessarily your nuclear family per se, but there is 0:37:23.969 --> 0:37:29.330 still this vision cast for that. The man will bear 0:37:29.330 --> 0:37:32.570 the responsibility. I think you see that clearly in Genesis three, 0:37:32.610 --> 0:37:37.290 that when the curse of sin is applied to the creation, 0:37:37.290 --> 0:37:42.530 the consequences of those things are applied with gendered distinction. 0:37:42.530 --> 0:37:46.250 So to the woman God gives, it says, you know, 0:37:46.489 --> 0:37:48.969 the your your desire shall be against your husband and 0:37:48.969 --> 0:37:51.290 he will rule over you. So she's going to feel 0:37:51.330 --> 0:37:54.930 pain in the household. And then also she says that 0:37:54.930 --> 0:37:58.650 she's told that she'll in pain bring forth children. And 0:37:58.650 --> 0:38:02.050 so kind of what you see is the female bears 0:38:02.050 --> 0:38:05.170 the brunt of the effects of sin in the home 0:38:05.170 --> 0:38:07.770 and the fruitful multiply side. But then to the man, 0:38:08.250 --> 0:38:10.370 God tells him, you know, by the sweat of your 0:38:10.370 --> 0:38:13.850 face will you bring forth things from the ground, you know, 0:38:13.890 --> 0:38:16.049 by the sweat of your face you'll eat bread. And 0:38:16.050 --> 0:38:19.210 so the man is going to bear the brunt of 0:38:19.210 --> 0:38:21.359 the curse as far as the subdue and dominion or 0:38:21.360 --> 0:38:24.080 the work and provide peace. And so I think part 0:38:24.080 --> 0:38:26.400 of what men need to do is recognize that work 0:38:26.400 --> 0:38:30.359 is a blessing, but work is cursed, and it's part 0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:34.239 of our responsibility as husbands and men to absorb that 0:38:34.239 --> 0:38:37.319 curse and not push it onto our wives when we 0:38:37.360 --> 0:38:41.359 are going about trying to build our lives together. And 0:38:41.360 --> 0:38:43.040 that's a really honor and a noble thing. You know, 0:38:43.080 --> 0:38:44.799 absorbing the effects of the curse is one of the 0:38:44.800 --> 0:38:46.600 things that Jesus. I mean, it's a thing that Jesus 0:38:46.600 --> 0:38:49.359 does on the cross is he absorbs that so that, 0:38:49.520 --> 0:38:51.799 so that we can live and flourish. And I want 0:38:51.800 --> 0:38:53.400 that to be one of my goals in my household 0:38:53.400 --> 0:38:56.160 is I want to absorb that curse and not ask 0:38:56.160 --> 0:38:58.480 my wife to be the one absorbing that curse. 0:38:58.840 --> 0:39:03.920 Yeah, yeah. You know, also, many men actually pour themselves 0:39:03.920 --> 0:39:07.240 into work and the job becomes a mistress. I remember 0:39:07.239 --> 0:39:10.920 a pastor's wife once said to me, she said, chairman, 0:39:10.920 --> 0:39:12.560 I'm going to be honest with you. I feel like 0:39:12.560 --> 0:39:16.440 that my husband has a mistress and oh man, my 0:39:16.440 --> 0:39:19.700 flags went up, you know, I said, really? She said, yeah, 0:39:19.700 --> 0:39:23.939 it's the church. Yeah. Wow. But it doesn't matter what 0:39:23.940 --> 0:39:26.980 the vocation is. We can get so involved in it 0:39:26.980 --> 0:39:31.660 that we we ignore, uh, maybe not intentionally. So what 0:39:31.700 --> 0:39:35.259 biblical wisdom would you offer to a man in that 0:39:35.260 --> 0:39:38.700 situation who is just, you know, overly involved in work 0:39:38.700 --> 0:39:41.739 and not taking time to relate to the family? 0:39:42.900 --> 0:39:44.740 Yeah. I think we have to think of our work 0:39:44.739 --> 0:39:49.740 in seasons and our responsibilities as being in a meaningful 0:39:49.739 --> 0:39:52.660 competition with each other, right? I can give so much 0:39:52.660 --> 0:39:54.620 attention to my wife. I neglect my kids. I can 0:39:54.620 --> 0:39:56.780 give so much attention to my kids. I neglect my wife. 0:39:56.780 --> 0:39:58.299 I can give so much attention to my friends. I 0:39:58.340 --> 0:40:00.180 neglect them both. I can give so much attention to 0:40:00.219 --> 0:40:02.060 all of those things that I neglect my work. And 0:40:02.060 --> 0:40:06.060 so there has to be this seasonal tension that we manage. 0:40:06.060 --> 0:40:08.660 That's not really a problem we can solve. But I 0:40:08.660 --> 0:40:11.620 think back to a couple hundred years ago when something 0:40:11.620 --> 0:40:15.180 like 80, 90% of men were homesteading, there wasn't really 0:40:15.180 --> 0:40:20.160 an industrial revolution. And when it's harvest time, you're out 0:40:20.200 --> 0:40:23.960 sunup to sundown. But then when it's waiting time, you 0:40:23.960 --> 0:40:26.400 have more time at home. And so I think the 0:40:26.400 --> 0:40:29.000 most important thing is being on the same page with 0:40:29.000 --> 0:40:32.960 your wife and being, uh, being a good communicator with 0:40:33.080 --> 0:40:37.080 seasonal responsibilities. Seasons of emphasis, not lying to yourself about 0:40:37.080 --> 0:40:41.920 how seasons become, uh, permanent realities. And so I know 0:40:41.920 --> 0:40:44.239 in my work, there are months where I tell my wife, 0:40:44.800 --> 0:40:46.839 I'm gonna have to work a little more this week. 0:40:46.840 --> 0:40:48.560 I'm going to be home late this day. I'm going 0:40:48.600 --> 0:40:50.560 to be kind of burning the candle at both ends 0:40:50.560 --> 0:40:52.920 for a season. And, and she's on board with that 0:40:52.920 --> 0:40:54.879 when it's seasonal. And then there are other times where 0:40:54.880 --> 0:40:56.600 I'm home early and I'm in the pool with the 0:40:56.600 --> 0:41:00.160 kids at 330, and you kind of have to try 0:41:00.160 --> 0:41:03.440 to seasonally flex emphasis. I don't think you can ever 0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:06.440 be perfectly balanced. You get unbalanced to the right, then 0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:09.520 you get unbalanced to the left. And that takes wisdom 0:41:09.520 --> 0:41:14.240 and connection. And I think when you have a priority 0:41:14.480 --> 0:41:17.549 of building your life with your wife and she's just 0:41:17.550 --> 0:41:20.589 finding out about all these things, but she's included in 0:41:20.590 --> 0:41:23.510 helping you manage that tension. I think it can go well, 0:41:23.510 --> 0:41:28.710 even as there's seasons where there's less availability in contrast 0:41:28.750 --> 0:41:31.350 to seasons where there's more availability. And so I think 0:41:31.350 --> 0:41:33.430 we have to embrace the reality of seasons and be 0:41:33.430 --> 0:41:37.950 honest with ourselves about when those seasons just become permanent, 0:41:37.989 --> 0:41:39.510 unsustainable realities. 0:41:40.390 --> 0:41:44.310 So if you talk about the A, B, C's of fatherhood, 0:41:44.989 --> 0:41:48.230 what are those? Just describe those for us. 0:41:49.350 --> 0:41:52.350 Yeah, this is going to reveal my addiction to pyramids, 0:41:52.350 --> 0:41:54.390 but this is another pyramid I have in the book 0:41:54.710 --> 0:41:57.910 underneath the Fatherhood thing. But I was trying to think 0:41:57.910 --> 0:42:02.110 through how I love my kids and what could be lacking. 0:42:02.110 --> 0:42:03.989 And so this is a three layered pyramid. The bottom 0:42:03.989 --> 0:42:10.710 is affection. This is warmth, connection, attunement, care, consideration, compassion. 0:42:10.710 --> 0:42:14.350 That's affection. That's the bottom pyramid. The middle one is blessing, 0:42:14.710 --> 0:42:20.930 which is about investment. And so proactive discipleship, proactive education, uh, 0:42:20.930 --> 0:42:23.810 financially investing in them, relationally investing in them. And so 0:42:23.810 --> 0:42:26.730 this is about adding to their life. You know, I 0:42:26.770 --> 0:42:30.410 think about the book, the blessing, you know, John Trent 0:42:30.410 --> 0:42:32.730 wrote is really influential there. Like, how do I speak 0:42:32.730 --> 0:42:34.969 words of life into them and put wind in their 0:42:34.969 --> 0:42:38.290 sails and set them up for success? You know, kind 0:42:38.290 --> 0:42:41.170 of plow the driveway so that they can run on it, 0:42:41.170 --> 0:42:44.850 so to speak. And then see is correction or discipline, 0:42:45.090 --> 0:42:49.049 which is all about, uh, live feedback, engagement. And there's 0:42:49.050 --> 0:42:51.570 a real culture now of the gentle parenting thing where 0:42:51.610 --> 0:42:54.489 parents can't say no to their kids and they can't 0:42:54.489 --> 0:42:57.490 make their kids obey them. And I do think that 0:42:57.489 --> 0:43:00.090 the Bible says, you know, a man who doesn't discipline 0:43:00.090 --> 0:43:03.330 his kid hates him, and you have to correct and 0:43:03.330 --> 0:43:06.130 intervene and engage. And so I think that can get 0:43:06.130 --> 0:43:08.250 out of whack if you flip that pyramid upside down 0:43:08.250 --> 0:43:12.770 and the base is correction, I think that's militaristic, cold, distant, aloof. 0:43:13.330 --> 0:43:17.279 But if a foundation is affection and investment and blessing, 0:43:17.280 --> 0:43:20.800 and then you're correcting, kids can receive that correction as 0:43:20.800 --> 0:43:24.880 loving care, not just as being micromanaged or criticized. 0:43:25.239 --> 0:43:29.840 Yeah. You know, Seth, not all Christian men are going 0:43:29.840 --> 0:43:34.439 to be biological fathers for one reason or another. But 0:43:34.440 --> 0:43:38.400 you write about spiritual fatherhood. Uh, how can a man 0:43:38.440 --> 0:43:39.520 live that out? 0:43:40.760 --> 0:43:42.120 Yeah. Some of the men that I know who are 0:43:42.120 --> 0:43:45.200 not biological fathers that are making an incredible difference in 0:43:45.200 --> 0:43:47.680 the life of local church, what they've signed up to 0:43:47.680 --> 0:43:51.640 do is to invest in kids ministry and student ministry. 0:43:51.719 --> 0:43:54.200 You know, one of my close friends, this is a 0:43:54.200 --> 0:43:58.479 heartbreaking story. But his 14 year old passed away in 0:43:58.480 --> 0:44:02.680 a dirt bike accident three years ago or so. And 0:44:02.680 --> 0:44:07.440 he has, you know, rightly grieved, but he's no longer, uh, 0:44:07.840 --> 0:44:11.759 parenting his son. It's really difficult. And one of the 0:44:11.760 --> 0:44:14.340 things he's done is he's stayed connected to his son's 0:44:14.340 --> 0:44:17.739 friends and he's loving them. Disciple. A lot of those 0:44:17.739 --> 0:44:21.259 guys have pretty poor fathers or aloof fathers or non-Christian fathers, 0:44:21.660 --> 0:44:24.140 and he's leading Bible studies with those guys, and he's 0:44:24.140 --> 0:44:27.460 supporting them and loving them. He's actually taken a group 0:44:27.460 --> 0:44:31.140 of nine of them through authentic masculinity right now. And 0:44:31.140 --> 0:44:35.100 that's an example of a man who carried his grief 0:44:35.219 --> 0:44:39.500 and is now stewarding his time and refusing to let 0:44:39.500 --> 0:44:44.540 his lack of a biological son on earth to take 0:44:44.540 --> 0:44:47.140 him out of the game. On investing in the kingdom, 0:44:47.140 --> 0:44:50.340 investing in the next generation. And I think that engaging 0:44:50.340 --> 0:44:54.100 in discipleship and loving, especially, you know, the fatherless or 0:44:54.100 --> 0:44:57.339 the under fathered, is a huge opportunity for men who 0:44:57.340 --> 0:45:00.180 never were biological fathers to invest in the kingdom of 0:45:00.180 --> 0:45:03.299 God and to do the work of an elder, even 0:45:03.300 --> 0:45:05.140 if they never hold the office of elder. 0:45:05.540 --> 0:45:08.779 Yeah. You know, as we come toward the end of 0:45:08.780 --> 0:45:12.810 our time, you also address younger men who have a 0:45:12.810 --> 0:45:15.850 hard time engaging face to face with women. I'm talking 0:45:15.850 --> 0:45:19.850 about unmarried men. Now. They might text a girl, you know, 0:45:19.890 --> 0:45:22.810 asking for a date, but they have a hard time 0:45:22.810 --> 0:45:25.489 on the face to face thing. How do you what 0:45:25.489 --> 0:45:27.210 do you what do you say to that young man? 0:45:28.410 --> 0:45:34.370 I think, really pragmatically speaking, your nervous system takes time 0:45:34.370 --> 0:45:39.090 to adapt to new situations. And so if you avoid 0:45:39.370 --> 0:45:41.890 the awkwardness or the clunkiness of trying to learn to 0:45:41.890 --> 0:45:44.650 talk to women face to face, you'll never learn. That's 0:45:44.650 --> 0:45:47.529 not going to the clouds aren't going to part. And spontaneously, 0:45:47.530 --> 0:45:49.330 you're going to be confident. Talking to women. I think 0:45:49.330 --> 0:45:51.490 you have to try and be willing to be clunky 0:45:51.489 --> 0:45:55.370 and awkward and recognize that even if a lot of 0:45:55.370 --> 0:45:57.609 women reject you, your father in heaven loves you, and 0:45:57.610 --> 0:45:59.770 the church loves you, and Jesus loves you. And so 0:45:59.770 --> 0:46:02.690 your identity is not at risk when you're rejected by 0:46:02.730 --> 0:46:06.169 a female. But you have to grow in comfortability with 0:46:06.170 --> 0:46:09.089 the possibility of rejection. If you're going to ever have 0:46:09.090 --> 0:46:12.910 those conversations in a meaningful way, I also think you 0:46:12.910 --> 0:46:15.469 owe it to women to get good at that. Like 0:46:15.469 --> 0:46:19.549 women deserve to have men in their life that are 0:46:19.550 --> 0:46:22.469 not awkward and weird whenever they're around. Like if at 0:46:22.469 --> 0:46:23.750 a minimum, if you want to talk to them as 0:46:23.750 --> 0:46:26.190 sisters in Christ, you can't be all sweaty and weird 0:46:26.630 --> 0:46:29.989 and difficult when there's women around. And so if you 0:46:29.989 --> 0:46:33.150 want to have a good and meaningful connection to women, 0:46:33.150 --> 0:46:37.150 broadly speaking, or specifically romantically, it's going to take trial 0:46:37.150 --> 0:46:39.550 and error. There's no way you get good at anything 0:46:39.550 --> 0:46:41.750 right away. Like I think I mentioned earlier, I started 0:46:41.750 --> 0:46:45.110 jiu jitsu. I'm awful at it. I lose all the time. 0:46:45.110 --> 0:46:47.190 I hate going to jiu jitsu every day that I 0:46:47.190 --> 0:46:49.750 go in at eight, nine, ten years, I've been doing 0:46:49.750 --> 0:46:53.030 it eight, nine, ten months and they're thrashing me. And 0:46:53.070 --> 0:46:55.029 but I understand this is what I signed up for. 0:46:55.030 --> 0:46:57.710 I know I'm bad and I'm going to get better incrementally. 0:46:57.710 --> 0:46:59.590 And I think it's the same with talking to females, 0:46:59.590 --> 0:47:03.510 talking to women, getting romantically engaged with them. And so 0:47:03.550 --> 0:47:05.710 allow yourself to be bad at things. You can't be 0:47:05.710 --> 0:47:07.230 good at things on square one. 0:47:07.550 --> 0:47:10.779 Yeah. And I would just throw this in If your 0:47:10.780 --> 0:47:17.220 whole relationship is by texting and online, please don't decide 0:47:17.219 --> 0:47:21.660 to get married until you spend some time talking face 0:47:21.660 --> 0:47:24.980 to face and getting to know the person. Yeah, technology 0:47:24.980 --> 0:47:29.219 is wonderful, but but in terms of relationships, you can't 0:47:29.219 --> 0:47:31.060 depend on technology, right? 0:47:31.940 --> 0:47:34.980 Oh, absolutely. I think you should spend as little time 0:47:34.980 --> 0:47:39.420 texting someone as possible. That's a general rule, I think 0:47:39.420 --> 0:47:42.940 if my wife and I are texting more than we're talking, 0:47:42.940 --> 0:47:46.219 that's a bad sign. And I think that's especially true 0:47:46.219 --> 0:47:50.740 in the forming stages of a relationship, that it requires 0:47:51.060 --> 0:47:54.980 no vulnerability to type an edited message versus doing it 0:47:54.980 --> 0:47:59.900 live where you're getting the feedback you're experiencing, the reciprocity 0:47:59.900 --> 0:48:01.980 of talking to a person face to face, doing the 0:48:01.980 --> 0:48:05.580 eye contact thing, especially early on, you really want to 0:48:05.580 --> 0:48:09.960 get face time and not just do digital communication. 0:48:10.800 --> 0:48:13.319 Well, Seth, we could talk on because this is a 0:48:13.320 --> 0:48:17.439 tremendous topic and I want to express appreciation to you 0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:20.760 for your investment of time and energy in writing this book. 0:48:21.040 --> 0:48:24.480 And I want to encourage our listeners, wherever you are 0:48:24.680 --> 0:48:28.640 in human relationships, this book will be a help to 0:48:28.640 --> 0:48:32.960 you and especially obviously to men. But I think women 0:48:32.960 --> 0:48:36.560 also reading this book and being there to interface with 0:48:36.560 --> 0:48:40.200 your husband as he processes all of this. But we 0:48:40.200 --> 0:48:45.759 need to rediscover the biblical picture of what manhood is 0:48:45.760 --> 0:48:48.640 all about. And if we do, we're going to bless 0:48:48.640 --> 0:48:51.640 our family, and we're going to be a part of 0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:55.399 influencing our culture. So again, I just want to thank 0:48:55.400 --> 0:48:57.960 you for what you've done in writing it, and I 0:48:57.960 --> 0:49:00.320 want to thank you for being on our program today. 0:49:00.560 --> 0:49:02.520 Thank you for having me. It's been a real treat. 0:49:03.200 --> 0:49:06.879 We hope the conversation encouraged every man and woman listening. 0:49:06.880 --> 0:49:10.870 And if you go to our website, Building relationships.us, you'll 0:49:10.870 --> 0:49:13.790 see more about our guest and the featured resource, Seth 0:49:13.790 --> 0:49:19.830 Trout's book, Authentic Masculinity Leaving Behind the Counterfeits for God's Design. 0:49:19.870 --> 0:49:22.469 Just go to building relationships.us. 0:49:23.110 --> 0:49:26.310 And coming up next week, we open the phone lines 0:49:26.310 --> 0:49:29.910 for your calls and questions about relationship struggles. 0:49:30.070 --> 0:49:31.030 Don't miss our June. 0:49:31.030 --> 0:49:33.750 Edition of Dear Gary in one week. And if you'd 0:49:33.750 --> 0:49:39.149 like to ask a question, call this number 1866424. Gary 0:49:39.469 --> 0:49:43.989 again (866) 424-4279. 0:49:44.110 --> 0:49:46.470 And before we go, let me thank our production team 0:49:46.469 --> 0:49:50.390 Steve Wick and Janice backing building relationships with doctor Gary 0:49:50.390 --> 0:49:53.870 Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with 0:49:53.910 --> 0:49:58.670 Moody Publishers, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.