1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,039 S1: Today on Chris Fabry live. Oh, I have something good, 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:10,560 S1: something fun. A topic I hope will make you think 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,800 S1: more deeply about your life and your moral imagination. I 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,640 S1: want you to meet a friend of mine named Cole, 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,520 S1: who I discovered from a mutual acquaintance, Doctor Rosalie de rosette. 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,680 S1: Cole wrote an article about how, as a child, he 7 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,000 S1: longed to live in the world of Star Wars. He 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,600 S1: wanted to walk on Tatooine with Luke Skywalker. Then, when 9 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,640 S1: he got a little older, he began to read novels 10 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,080 S1: of the West by Louis L'Amour and others, and he 11 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,880 S1: noticed a similarity between Tatooine and Tucson, between the Death 12 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,720 S1: Star and the okay corral. And he's given me a 13 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,440 S1: question for you to ponder. Was there a movie or 14 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:47,040 S1: story growing up that shaped your sense of right and wrong? 15 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,440 S1: How would you answer that? Let's get started with the 16 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,680 S1: program that originates not in a galaxy far away, but 17 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,800 S1: from the portal of my radio backyard fence. Let me 18 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,360 S1: thank our team members. Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. 19 00:00:59,750 --> 00:01:03,150 S1: Tricia McMillan is our producer. Lisa is on phones today. 20 00:01:03,150 --> 00:01:05,350 S1: And since it's Friday. That's right. It's time for the 21 00:01:05,350 --> 00:01:08,710 S1: fabulous Fabi Friday. Sy here's what it does one. We 22 00:01:08,709 --> 00:01:12,390 S1: oxygenate your blood, we get your endorphins going. We raise 23 00:01:12,390 --> 00:01:16,590 S1: your serotonin. Level. Four, we promote lymphatic drainage. In five, 24 00:01:16,630 --> 00:01:19,790 S1: we stimulate your parasympathetic system. That's why we call it 25 00:01:19,790 --> 00:01:23,910 S1: the five lung languages. We also stimulate your vagus nerve. 26 00:01:23,910 --> 00:01:26,750 S1: We help you release acetylcholine. And don't you dare forget 27 00:01:26,750 --> 00:01:30,550 S1: what it does to cortisol dissipation. Take in four seconds 28 00:01:30,550 --> 00:01:33,870 S1: of air through your nose right now. Hold it for seconds, 29 00:01:34,190 --> 00:01:36,510 S1: and then as you release that air through your mouth, 30 00:01:36,550 --> 00:01:38,790 S1: push on the left side of your rib cage to 31 00:01:38,790 --> 00:01:41,750 S1: get rid of all that bad carbon dioxide. Today, we 32 00:01:41,750 --> 00:01:45,270 S1: present a simultaneous western and sci fi side. Give a 33 00:01:45,270 --> 00:01:47,950 S1: sci at 310. If you're headed to Yuma, give a 34 00:01:47,950 --> 00:01:51,389 S1: sci for Tombstone and The Shootist. Give a good, bad 35 00:01:51,390 --> 00:01:54,230 S1: and ugly sci. Give a sci for John Wayne, Clint 36 00:01:54,230 --> 00:01:57,510 S1: Eastwood and Lee Van Cleef. And don't forget a magnificent 37 00:01:57,510 --> 00:02:00,070 S1: seven sci Sigh a true grit. HUD. And how the 38 00:02:00,070 --> 00:02:02,310 S1: West was won. Sigh. And while you're at it, give 39 00:02:02,310 --> 00:02:06,070 S1: a sigh for Luke, Leia and Chewbacca. Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda 40 00:02:06,070 --> 00:02:09,390 S1: and Darth Vader. And don't forget Han Solo, the fabulous 41 00:02:09,389 --> 00:02:12,510 S1: fabric size brought to you by George Lucas, John Ford, 42 00:02:12,510 --> 00:02:16,910 S1: Sergio Leone, and J.J. Abrams. And don't forget John Williams. 43 00:02:17,830 --> 00:02:21,510 S1: All rights reserved. And do not sign for Jar Jar Binks. 44 00:02:21,630 --> 00:02:24,910 S1: That is the caveat we have for you today. Before 45 00:02:24,910 --> 00:02:26,910 S1: we get to our topic, which is going to be 46 00:02:26,910 --> 00:02:30,110 S1: so much fun, it is January 30th. Can you believe it? 47 00:02:30,150 --> 00:02:33,230 S1: We will one more day after day in January. It's 48 00:02:33,230 --> 00:02:37,070 S1: my last chance to encourage you to support this daily 49 00:02:37,070 --> 00:02:40,870 S1: conversation with a gift of any size. And guess what, friends, 50 00:02:41,070 --> 00:02:44,350 S1: you will receive a thank you of biblical proportions. That's right, 51 00:02:44,350 --> 00:02:47,870 S1: Doctor Michael Rudnick's. How should Christians think about Israel? It's 52 00:02:47,870 --> 00:02:51,269 S1: been our gift all this month. But friends, the window 53 00:02:51,270 --> 00:02:54,670 S1: is closing. The Death Star is near for this. Don't 54 00:02:54,669 --> 00:02:58,860 S1: miss this little book about God's covenants, biblical prophecy, and 55 00:02:58,860 --> 00:03:02,140 S1: the Jewish people. We are only eight gifts away from 56 00:03:02,139 --> 00:03:05,020 S1: our giver goal this month. Would you be one of 57 00:03:05,020 --> 00:03:08,420 S1: the few, the proud, the eight who call either a 58 00:03:08,419 --> 00:03:14,340 S1: call or click through 86695 Fabri or today go to 59 00:03:14,340 --> 00:03:18,180 S1: Chris O. We only need eight. You could be one 60 00:03:18,180 --> 00:03:20,340 S1: of the eight. Keep the back fence going with a 61 00:03:20,380 --> 00:03:24,019 S1: gift today. Thank you for your support here in January. Chris. 62 00:03:24,060 --> 00:03:38,500 S1: Fabric 5 or 8 669532279. A long time ago in 63 00:03:38,500 --> 00:03:41,660 S1: a galaxy far, far away, a young man named Cole 64 00:03:41,660 --> 00:03:45,020 S1: was born. He grew up on a steady diet of 65 00:03:45,020 --> 00:03:48,300 S1: Star Wars films, long before he could understand the power 66 00:03:48,300 --> 00:03:52,260 S1: of genre or myth or archetypes. Before he could pronounce 67 00:03:52,260 --> 00:03:56,330 S1: the words moral imagination, one was being formed for him. 68 00:03:56,330 --> 00:04:00,490 S1: Through these stories and tales and far flung galaxies filled 69 00:04:00,490 --> 00:04:04,730 S1: with goodness and danger and mystery. So today we present 70 00:04:04,730 --> 00:04:09,650 S1: episode 432 of Chris Fabry Live A New Frontier, featuring 71 00:04:09,650 --> 00:04:14,930 S1: a Padawan named Cole. Cole Bourguet, to be precise. He 72 00:04:14,970 --> 00:04:18,490 S1: is a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary and the Moody 73 00:04:18,490 --> 00:04:22,450 S1: Bible Institute. Don't forget the the the. He currently serves 74 00:04:22,450 --> 00:04:27,289 S1: as the Assistant Director of Online and Non-traditional Learning at 75 00:04:27,290 --> 00:04:32,090 S1: Corban University in Salem, Oregon. He's also assistant professor of 76 00:04:32,089 --> 00:04:35,770 S1: theology there. He writes extensively about theology and pop culture. 77 00:04:35,770 --> 00:04:38,370 S1: We have a link to his article today, and I 78 00:04:38,370 --> 00:04:41,370 S1: encourage you to go there and shut their server down 79 00:04:41,610 --> 00:04:46,049 S1: at Christ and Popculture.com. It's titled Where the Frontier Meets 80 00:04:46,089 --> 00:04:50,530 S1: the Galaxy The Western genre and the Moral Imagination of 81 00:04:50,529 --> 00:04:53,690 S1: Star Wars. Cole, welcome to the program. How are you 82 00:04:53,690 --> 00:04:54,489 S1: doing today? 83 00:04:55,130 --> 00:04:56,890 S2: Doing all right, Chris, thanks so much. 84 00:04:57,570 --> 00:05:00,210 S1: Have you ever had a great setup like that before? 85 00:05:00,610 --> 00:05:03,250 S2: That's the best one I've ever had. I was kind 86 00:05:03,290 --> 00:05:04,050 S2: of impressed. 87 00:05:04,970 --> 00:05:07,930 S1: That is. Now I'm getting your last name right. Bourguet. Right. 88 00:05:08,010 --> 00:05:09,969 S2: You are getting it right. It's a hard g. 89 00:05:10,250 --> 00:05:12,930 S1: Okay, where where does that name come from? Where does 90 00:05:12,930 --> 00:05:14,010 S1: your family come from? 91 00:05:14,450 --> 00:05:18,210 S2: That's a good question. Actually, we don't know. Um, no. 92 00:05:18,250 --> 00:05:23,210 S2: I grew up, uh, in the the Kentucky, West Virginia area. Uh, 93 00:05:23,210 --> 00:05:25,810 S2: so what would be, I guess, considered the the southeast 94 00:05:25,850 --> 00:05:30,250 S2: region of the United States. Um, my hometown, um, I 95 00:05:30,290 --> 00:05:35,010 S2: guess is technically Williamson, West Virginia, but there's also South Williamson, Kentucky, 96 00:05:35,010 --> 00:05:37,650 S2: because the river, the tug River runs, runs right through 97 00:05:37,650 --> 00:05:39,650 S2: the middle of the town. So, you know, you can't 98 00:05:39,650 --> 00:05:42,450 S2: you can't go to Walmart without driving through two states. 99 00:05:43,170 --> 00:05:43,970 S2: The tug. 100 00:05:44,010 --> 00:05:47,410 S1: Fork. See, you're you're from. And that's why I like 101 00:05:47,410 --> 00:05:50,810 S1: you already. You know, you grew up in West Virginia 102 00:05:50,810 --> 00:05:53,800 S1: and Kentucky, and that's where my family is from from 103 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,600 S1: the southwest coalfields down there and the Tug Fork. 104 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,640 S2: That's it man. Yeah, that's exactly where I'm. 105 00:05:58,680 --> 00:05:59,599 S1: Blair Mountain. 106 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:00,200 S2: Related. 107 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,120 S1: Yeah, I bet we are. Yeah. 108 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:03,520 S2: Probably related somewhere in there. 109 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,720 S1: Okay, so. So this soil that you were that you 110 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:11,120 S1: grew up in, um, the place where you grew up 111 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,080 S1: in is very important to the your formation of your 112 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,240 S1: imagination and your reading and all of that. Tell me 113 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:18,960 S1: about that. 114 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,000 S2: Yeah. So I grew up in, I guess, what you'd 115 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,560 S2: call a divided home, right? My parents divorced when I 116 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:32,480 S2: was very young and represented two very different expressions of Christianity. Um, 117 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,839 S2: my father is an independent fundamental Baptist. So same church, 118 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,599 S2: same hymn, same structure for 50 years. Uh, my mother 119 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,960 S2: gravitated more toward the contemporary church world, you know, stages, 120 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,080 S2: sliding rigs, fog machines, creative production, all that stuff. And 121 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,109 S2: so I grew up, um, kind of moving between those 122 00:06:52,110 --> 00:06:55,350 S2: two extremes. And all of that is sort of, you know, 123 00:06:55,390 --> 00:06:58,750 S2: sprinkled with a good dose of, of that, the culture 124 00:06:58,750 --> 00:07:01,190 S2: that is so unique to that region. You know, banjo 125 00:07:01,190 --> 00:07:05,230 S2: music and, and that kind of thing. Um, so Christianity 126 00:07:05,230 --> 00:07:07,830 S2: is was always present in my life growing up in 127 00:07:07,870 --> 00:07:11,590 S2: that world, but it was, um, expressed in, in very 128 00:07:11,590 --> 00:07:14,790 S2: different ways. And I think when you, when you grow 129 00:07:14,790 --> 00:07:18,350 S2: up in a home like that, you become, you become 130 00:07:18,350 --> 00:07:24,350 S2: very aware of, of differences. Uh, you're constantly navigating contrasts. 131 00:07:25,110 --> 00:07:29,110 S2: And so it took, uh, it took therapy later to, 132 00:07:29,150 --> 00:07:32,430 S2: to untangle some of that. But I'm, I'm very grateful 133 00:07:32,430 --> 00:07:35,670 S2: for the likes of, uh, Doctor Rosalie Darras, Doctor John Kessler, 134 00:07:35,670 --> 00:07:38,030 S2: folks like that at Moody who helped me to think 135 00:07:38,030 --> 00:07:42,150 S2: very clearly and and faithfully about what I'd absorbed. 136 00:07:43,350 --> 00:07:46,910 S1: What did. Rosie, what did you take away from Rosie 137 00:07:46,950 --> 00:07:50,150 S1: or her classes and the different things that you you 138 00:07:50,300 --> 00:07:51,020 S1: studied under. 139 00:07:51,060 --> 00:07:55,260 S2: A shorter list. What? What didn't I take away? You know, 140 00:07:55,660 --> 00:08:00,220 S2: there was so much, uh, so much there. Um, that 141 00:08:00,220 --> 00:08:03,740 S2: that I got. Rosie is, uh. Rosie's been a very 142 00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:05,780 S2: important person in my life, and she's one of my 143 00:08:05,820 --> 00:08:09,580 S2: my favorite people and remains a very good friend. And, uh, 144 00:08:09,580 --> 00:08:14,020 S2: doctor de rosette is a very clear thinker, and she's 145 00:08:14,020 --> 00:08:20,780 S2: very good at articulating, um, nuances. And for me especially, um, 146 00:08:20,780 --> 00:08:25,580 S2: trying to unpack what was, um, it's kind of like 147 00:08:25,580 --> 00:08:29,260 S2: if you grow up in that, it's hard to see 148 00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:31,340 S2: until you get outside of it, right? It's hard to 149 00:08:31,340 --> 00:08:35,340 S2: see just how profoundly strange some of that world can be. Uh, 150 00:08:35,340 --> 00:08:37,300 S2: because it's just the culture you grew up in and what, 151 00:08:37,300 --> 00:08:40,380 S2: you know, and, uh, Rosie, I think in a lot 152 00:08:40,380 --> 00:08:44,580 S2: of ways gave me a vocabulary for discussing those things 153 00:08:44,580 --> 00:08:49,059 S2: in the context of faith and articulating those things and 154 00:08:49,179 --> 00:08:51,820 S2: the importance of faith and the role that it plays 155 00:08:51,820 --> 00:08:53,340 S2: in in navigating that stuff. 156 00:08:53,340 --> 00:08:57,260 S1: So very reason another reason why I like you. Okay. 157 00:08:57,300 --> 00:09:01,260 S1: And you said that you encapsulated that very well. So 158 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:04,420 S1: the the pain that you talked about with your parents divorce, 159 00:09:04,420 --> 00:09:08,460 S1: divided household living in, you know, in a place where 160 00:09:09,380 --> 00:09:12,660 S1: you could see around the mountains, around you, but no further. 161 00:09:12,940 --> 00:09:18,100 S1: Did you retreat then into books, into films. Is that 162 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:19,300 S1: one of the things that you did? 163 00:09:19,980 --> 00:09:23,820 S2: Absolutely. See? The story almost writes itself, right. Um, movies 164 00:09:23,820 --> 00:09:27,420 S2: and books were an escape, but they were also, um, coherence, 165 00:09:27,420 --> 00:09:32,460 S2: let's say when home was very divided, stories felt very unified. 166 00:09:32,460 --> 00:09:38,179 S2: And I think they offered moral clarity without without a 167 00:09:38,220 --> 00:09:43,020 S2: lot of chaos. And westerns and Star Wars especially were 168 00:09:43,380 --> 00:09:48,450 S2: mythological stories. Um, but I feel like I should probably qualify. 169 00:09:48,450 --> 00:09:50,330 S2: When I say myth, I don't mean false. I mean 170 00:09:50,330 --> 00:09:53,730 S2: what Tolkien and Lewis meant. Stories that carry truth in 171 00:09:53,770 --> 00:09:59,449 S2: narrative form. You know, myth doesn't really argue it. It reveals. 172 00:09:59,450 --> 00:10:01,810 S2: It shapes how we see the world before we can 173 00:10:01,809 --> 00:10:06,810 S2: really articulate why. And that's why Lewis talked about Christianity 174 00:10:06,809 --> 00:10:09,569 S2: as the capital T capital M true myth, the story 175 00:10:09,570 --> 00:10:14,650 S2: that actually happened. Um, and they sort of awaken longing. 176 00:10:14,650 --> 00:10:16,810 S2: So when people hear the word myth, they often hear 177 00:10:16,850 --> 00:10:20,770 S2: made up. And that's just that's just not what I mean. Right. Um, 178 00:10:20,770 --> 00:10:24,770 S2: the Bible especially is mythic. And to say that isn't 179 00:10:24,770 --> 00:10:27,730 S2: to say that it's it's false. It's just to say 180 00:10:27,730 --> 00:10:31,569 S2: that it uses a a very kind of deep, ingrained grammar. 181 00:10:31,610 --> 00:10:37,650 S2: It uses image, it uses archetypes, patterns, symbols. Um, it's 182 00:10:37,650 --> 00:10:40,650 S2: not less than history, but it's more than history. It's 183 00:10:40,650 --> 00:10:43,330 S2: bigger than history in a sense. It's why you can 184 00:10:43,530 --> 00:10:46,290 S2: read a story about something that happened 4000 years ago 185 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,079 S2: in a culture you barely understand and still relate to it, 186 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,040 S2: if that makes sense. Well, if you. 187 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,560 S1: Can say, Joseph, you could. You could say Joseph. And 188 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,600 S1: immediately I think of the the depths that he went 189 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,439 S1: to and then the heights that he reached for a purpose, 190 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,000 S1: for the salvation of his people. And then you look 191 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,400 S1: at Jesus, who is a type of Joseph, you know, 192 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,959 S1: who goes to the depths in order to bring salvation 193 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:10,360 S1: to all of us, right? 194 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,080 S2: Yeah. That's a perfect example of what we, we call typology, uh, 195 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:17,760 S2: which is, you know, the sort of the big theological 196 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,079 S2: language we use for discussing the Bible and the way 197 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,239 S2: that it uses patterns and motifs and things like that. 198 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,040 S2: Joseph becomes a type of Christ. Paul argues the same 199 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,720 S2: way in Romans. Adam is a type of Christ, uh, 200 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,440 S2: and the ability to recognize that is important, I think. Um. 201 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,360 S1: And then what we do with that and, and I 202 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,280 S1: want every parent listening here today to think about this. 203 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,160 S1: What what are your children? How are they? How is 204 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,120 S1: their moral imagination being formed by this conversation? And then 205 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,240 S1: I want you to look at your own life as well. 206 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,080 S1: The things that you agree with or don't agree with, 207 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,600 S1: what your sense of right and wrong. That's the question 208 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:58,800 S1: that Cole has given us today. Was there a movie 209 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,480 S1: or story growing up that shaped your sense of right 210 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:11,920 S1: and wrong? Here's our number 87754836758775483675. Let's talk about it. 211 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,200 S1: A fun topic for you today on a Friday Chris 212 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:45,230 S1: Fabry live. How can you not like this? How can 213 00:12:45,230 --> 00:12:47,070 S1: you not like a program is going to play from 214 00:12:47,070 --> 00:12:50,230 S1: the Magnificent Seven? You've got to love it, friend. Come 215 00:12:50,230 --> 00:12:52,470 S1: on over to the backyard fence, because we're going to 216 00:12:52,470 --> 00:12:55,949 S1: a galaxy far away. And we're going into the American 217 00:12:55,950 --> 00:12:59,670 S1: West with Cole Bourguet. Bring that up. Brian, I want 218 00:12:59,670 --> 00:13:04,630 S1: to hear this right here. What is that do in 219 00:13:04,630 --> 00:13:06,790 S1: your soul? What is that doing to your soul when 220 00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:09,190 S1: you hear something like that? It's like The Expanse. It's 221 00:13:09,230 --> 00:13:12,230 S1: like there's hope. There's freedom out here. Oh, but wait, 222 00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:15,510 S1: there's danger as well. Uh, where the Frontier Meets the 223 00:13:15,550 --> 00:13:19,470 S1: Galaxy is an article that our guest, Cole Bourguet, wrote. 224 00:13:19,510 --> 00:13:23,310 S1: It is published. We've got a link to it at Chris. Org, 225 00:13:23,350 --> 00:13:26,990 S1: Christ and Popculture.com. And I wanted to have him on 226 00:13:26,990 --> 00:13:30,069 S1: here to talk more about this. Because you grew up, 227 00:13:30,070 --> 00:13:32,110 S1: you just told us a little bit about your growing 228 00:13:32,110 --> 00:13:35,230 S1: up and how you retreated, or you went into these 229 00:13:35,230 --> 00:13:38,750 S1: stories that you read and that you films that you watched, 230 00:13:39,150 --> 00:13:44,500 S1: many that were Star Wars and those archetypes that you 231 00:13:44,540 --> 00:13:49,420 S1: kind of, uh, saw life through that lens. And I 232 00:13:49,460 --> 00:13:53,020 S1: did much the same thing you dreamed. Did you really 233 00:13:53,020 --> 00:13:57,860 S1: dream about, uh, seeing the twin moons on Tatooine? Oh, 234 00:13:57,860 --> 00:13:58,740 S1: there's a certain power. 235 00:13:58,740 --> 00:14:01,820 S2: To it, isn't there? Yeah, yeah. I mean, or at 236 00:14:01,820 --> 00:14:03,740 S2: least something. Something like it, right? 237 00:14:05,380 --> 00:14:09,260 S1: Um, but. But you didn't want to. You didn't want 238 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:12,219 S1: to go to the galaxy far away. You. There was 239 00:14:12,220 --> 00:14:15,700 S1: something deeper that you wanted to go to. What was that? 240 00:14:16,260 --> 00:14:21,020 S2: Yeah, it's hard to name, I think, um, at, at 241 00:14:21,060 --> 00:14:23,860 S2: that age, uh, which, to be fair, you know, when 242 00:14:23,860 --> 00:14:26,420 S2: Lucas made Star Wars, he made it for 12 year 243 00:14:26,460 --> 00:14:29,100 S2: old boys. So it it works on the target audience, 244 00:14:29,340 --> 00:14:33,780 S2: you know? But, uh, it kind of gives you ideas 245 00:14:33,780 --> 00:14:36,060 S2: and things like that before you necessarily know how to 246 00:14:36,100 --> 00:14:39,180 S2: name them. And what I realized later on is that 247 00:14:39,180 --> 00:14:41,500 S2: Westerns and Star Wars kind of play in the same territory. 248 00:14:41,780 --> 00:14:45,060 S2: It's a they give you a kind of moral landscape 249 00:14:45,060 --> 00:14:50,580 S2: where courage matters, where sacrifice matters, where fidelity matters. And 250 00:14:50,580 --> 00:14:54,660 S2: those things, you know, form you long before you can 251 00:14:54,660 --> 00:14:58,660 S2: articulate things like doctrine. Um, and really, what they were 252 00:14:58,660 --> 00:15:02,180 S2: doing is making me receptive to the gospel. I think 253 00:15:02,180 --> 00:15:07,900 S2: we we underestimate the imagination. Uh, we focus on arguments. Right? 254 00:15:07,900 --> 00:15:10,860 S2: But we forget formation. And you can win debates, but 255 00:15:10,860 --> 00:15:13,940 S2: still have a very starved imagination. And if the imagination 256 00:15:13,940 --> 00:15:17,820 S2: isn't formed by beauty, sacrifice, and, you know, truth, it's 257 00:15:17,820 --> 00:15:20,220 S2: going to be formed by something else. So stories didn't 258 00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:24,580 S2: save me, but they trained me to recognize what salvation 259 00:15:24,580 --> 00:15:27,500 S2: looked like when I encountered it. Because salvation takes the 260 00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:29,820 S2: shape of a story, right? If you tell someone the gospel, 261 00:15:29,820 --> 00:15:31,660 S2: you're innately telling them a story about this. You know, 262 00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:35,580 S2: country preacher from Galilee named Jesus of Nazareth who claimed 263 00:15:35,580 --> 00:15:39,420 S2: to be this long awaited messianic figure. Um, so before 264 00:15:39,420 --> 00:15:42,210 S2: I could really defend the faith intellectually, or even necessarily 265 00:15:42,210 --> 00:15:45,490 S2: understand what I was feeling. In many ways, the imagination 266 00:15:45,490 --> 00:15:47,530 S2: was being shaped to kind of desire it, if that 267 00:15:47,530 --> 00:15:48,250 S2: makes sense. 268 00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:51,850 S1: Yes. And that what you just said is so important. 269 00:15:52,010 --> 00:15:55,490 S1: Even the music that we. The two song themes that 270 00:15:55,490 --> 00:16:00,010 S1: we've played, there is something that stirs inside not only, 271 00:16:00,050 --> 00:16:02,690 S1: you know, for what is it's attached to, you know, 272 00:16:02,730 --> 00:16:05,090 S1: and the and the what it brings up in your 273 00:16:05,090 --> 00:16:09,130 S1: mind pictures, but what it does on the inside of 274 00:16:09,130 --> 00:16:11,130 S1: your soul. And that's what a good story will do. 275 00:16:11,130 --> 00:16:14,370 S1: It will move you inside, make you feel something. Right? 276 00:16:15,090 --> 00:16:19,250 S2: Absolutely. Um, you know, there's there's a reason John Williams 277 00:16:19,250 --> 00:16:22,690 S2: music is so iconic. Um, besides the fact that he's 278 00:16:22,690 --> 00:16:26,250 S2: just very good. It's it's very, um, I guess to 279 00:16:26,290 --> 00:16:29,330 S2: use the word operatic. Right? It's very sweeping, and it 280 00:16:29,330 --> 00:16:33,410 S2: takes you through a kind of range of emotions, uh, 281 00:16:33,650 --> 00:16:35,930 S2: as you're, you're listening to it. And when you pair 282 00:16:35,930 --> 00:16:38,410 S2: that with images and a story, that kind of thing, 283 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,600 S2: You really are kind of being walked through a story 284 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,720 S2: with a wide range of of emotions, especially in big 285 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:52,920 S2: stories like Star Wars and Westerns. Westerns are very big stories. Um, 286 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,800 S2: I think it's easy to sometimes miss that, because we 287 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,320 S2: were kind of naive in the way that we we 288 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,400 S2: look at Westerns. Yes. Um, but there's a huge landscape, 289 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,000 S2: and the characters are often larger than life, that kind 290 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,480 S2: of thing. Uh, and so, yeah, it's supposed to stir 291 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,120 S2: something in you. I think Tolkien would call that longing. 292 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:15,560 S1: Mhm. Well, and you make the point that George Lucas 293 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:20,440 S1: drew from much of what drew you in, because in 294 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,359 S1: your teen years you began to read these Western paperbacks, 295 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:28,280 S1: Louis L'Amour, and you were criticized. A Latin teacher criticized 296 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:29,880 S1: you for this at one point, right? 297 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,560 S2: Yeah. Actually, I had a I had a teacher, um, 298 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,199 S2: bless his heart, that's a Kentucky expression. uh, but I 299 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,840 S2: had a Latin teacher once who, uh. What? Saw me 300 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,560 S2: reading a Louis L'Amour novel and said, you know, you 301 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,280 S2: could be reading a Latin book or learning Latin, studying 302 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,280 S2: Latin instead of reading a Louis L'Amour book, like it 303 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,480 S2: was just so beneath him. And I thought, well, even 304 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,840 S2: as a kid, I thought, well, this is why we 305 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,280 S2: don't get along. Your pretentiousness. Yes. 306 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,720 S1: Because whatever what touches you, what what moves you? Uh, 307 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,480 S1: and I hear the same thing about a lot of 308 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,640 S1: people are answering the question that you gave. Was there 309 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,040 S1: a movie or story To kill a mockingbird? And there 310 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,960 S1: are some people who will shove that aside. But if 311 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,359 S1: you read that in some formative time of your life, 312 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:26,400 S1: you realize how important that is to seeing for empathy, 313 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,080 S1: walking in somebody else's shoes. Right? 314 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,520 S2: Oh, absolutely. And I mean, that's that's part of being 315 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,200 S2: a Christian, right? The ability to empathize with someone else. 316 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,110 S2: And that's a good story. That's what it does. It 317 00:18:38,109 --> 00:18:41,950 S2: allows you to experience a situation, no matter how fantastical, 318 00:18:42,270 --> 00:18:45,270 S2: through the eyes of of someone else, through the eyes 319 00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:49,070 S2: of another character. Uh, and in many ways, this is 320 00:18:49,109 --> 00:18:51,629 S2: sort of what I think we mean by, uh, the 321 00:18:51,630 --> 00:18:56,710 S2: moral imagination. Right? Reading stories sort of trains you, um, 322 00:18:56,710 --> 00:19:01,709 S2: and trains that moral imagination, um, to help you empathize 323 00:19:01,710 --> 00:19:04,469 S2: and see things from another perspective. And what's funny is 324 00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:07,310 S2: that scripture does the exact same thing. 50% of the 325 00:19:07,310 --> 00:19:10,590 S2: Bible is narrative literature. The other 50% deals with the 50% 326 00:19:10,950 --> 00:19:13,950 S2: that is narrative literature. So you can't you can't get 327 00:19:13,950 --> 00:19:17,750 S2: away from, uh, the fact that the the Bible is 328 00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:20,869 S2: a story in a very real sense. And part of 329 00:19:20,910 --> 00:19:23,909 S2: the struggle, I think, is trying to figure out how 330 00:19:23,910 --> 00:19:28,909 S2: to inhabit that story as people. Yeah. Um, you know, 331 00:19:29,390 --> 00:19:33,510 S2: the Bible is, is genres, it's narrative, it's poetry, it's prophecy, 332 00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:38,139 S2: it's wisdom. And so often that stuff gets treated as 333 00:19:38,180 --> 00:19:43,780 S2: raw material for abstraction. And when you flatten Scripture into propositions, 334 00:19:43,780 --> 00:19:47,220 S2: only what we produce are Christians who can state correct 335 00:19:47,220 --> 00:19:49,900 S2: answers but don't have a trained moral imagination. So they 336 00:19:49,900 --> 00:19:53,859 S2: struggle to actually recognize courage, wisdom, repentance, faithfulness, things like 337 00:19:53,859 --> 00:19:57,540 S2: that in real time. And so there are people who 338 00:19:57,540 --> 00:20:00,140 S2: who know the categories, but they don't necessarily know how 339 00:20:00,140 --> 00:20:02,300 S2: to inhabit the story, if that makes sense. 340 00:20:02,580 --> 00:20:03,260 S3: It does. 341 00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:08,300 S1: And and it takes me back to, uh, Bruno Bettelheim. 342 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:10,500 S1: And I know there are problems with with him and 343 00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:13,659 S1: some of his writing, but in Uses of Enchantment, he 344 00:20:13,660 --> 00:20:19,940 S1: was basically saying that as children read the fairy tales, 345 00:20:20,180 --> 00:20:24,260 S1: they see their own lives in some way. There's a 346 00:20:24,260 --> 00:20:28,100 S1: there's a deep, dark forest. There is a wolf somewhere. There's, 347 00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:31,660 S1: you know, someone who's waiting for you, that, you know, 348 00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:34,980 S1: the bad person or the witch or whatever it is. 349 00:20:35,340 --> 00:20:37,740 S1: There is this evil that is out there and you 350 00:20:37,740 --> 00:20:41,540 S1: have to be cognizant. So the story not only you know, 351 00:20:41,580 --> 00:20:44,379 S1: it'll scare you, but also comfort you in a little 352 00:20:44,420 --> 00:20:47,500 S1: in ways. You know, if Red Riding Hood makes it 353 00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:52,379 S1: to grandma's house and and the woodsmen come. But if 354 00:20:52,420 --> 00:20:57,100 S1: if we see our lives with these stories as the 355 00:20:57,100 --> 00:21:00,780 S1: templates that we put over our lives, and then looking 356 00:21:00,780 --> 00:21:04,100 S1: at the the biblical literature that you've just said, it 357 00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:07,300 S1: gives us kind of a framework to live by. Right. 358 00:21:07,780 --> 00:21:11,140 S2: Exactly. Uh, you know, it's something to pay attention to 359 00:21:11,180 --> 00:21:16,260 S2: that the Bible teaches through narrative and image. Um, because 360 00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:20,740 S2: God is forming persons. If God wanted a textbook of theology, 361 00:21:20,780 --> 00:21:22,459 S2: he could have given us one. But instead, what he 362 00:21:22,460 --> 00:21:26,859 S2: gives us is quite literally a library. And saying the 363 00:21:26,859 --> 00:21:29,859 S2: Bible is literature, and talking about the Bible as literature 364 00:21:29,859 --> 00:21:33,530 S2: isn't demoting it, it's recognizing what it is, this collection 365 00:21:33,530 --> 00:21:38,050 S2: of of genres that communicates truth and very fitting ways. 366 00:21:38,770 --> 00:21:42,210 S2: And I think you're absolutely right, Chris, that when we 367 00:21:42,210 --> 00:21:45,730 S2: say that, you know, God communicates reality in the Bible 368 00:21:45,730 --> 00:21:49,410 S2: through the shape of stories, it's because humans live by narratives, 369 00:21:49,570 --> 00:21:53,970 S2: not bullet points. We don't only think in arguments, we 370 00:21:53,970 --> 00:21:58,930 S2: think in images, patterns, memory, even, and in a lot 371 00:21:58,930 --> 00:22:01,970 S2: of church contexts and sometimes even seminary culture. I can 372 00:22:01,970 --> 00:22:05,889 S2: say that because I went in seminary culture, we unintentionally 373 00:22:05,890 --> 00:22:11,050 S2: train people to distrust anything that isn't immediately reducible to 374 00:22:11,090 --> 00:22:16,650 S2: a definition. And so something like imagination gets treated as suspicious, 375 00:22:17,050 --> 00:22:20,810 S2: when in fact imagination is unavoidable. The question is whether 376 00:22:20,810 --> 00:22:23,810 S2: it's being formed by Scripture or everything else. 377 00:22:24,250 --> 00:22:24,730 S3: Yes. 378 00:22:25,410 --> 00:22:29,490 S1: And and why did Jesus use those stories, the parables 379 00:22:29,490 --> 00:22:34,560 S1: that he sat beside his teaching. It's because he knew 380 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,800 S1: he wanted to get to the heart. And it's through 381 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,639 S1: story that you really get to the heart. Okay, so 382 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,119 S1: there's much more to say. Go to the website. Chris, 383 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,359 S1: you can link to that article in Christ in Pop 384 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:51,400 S1: Culture by Cole Berget, uh, Where the Frontier Meets the Galaxy. 385 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,879 S1: Just go to Chris. Org, but I want to hear 386 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,480 S1: from you. Was there a movie? Was there a story 387 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,399 S1: growing up that shaped your sense of right and wrong? 388 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,359 S1: There's no right or wrong answer with this. You know, 389 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:08,879 S1: whatever your experience is. (877) 548-3675. Let's go to New Mexico. Oh, 390 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,160 S1: that's a great place to go if we're going to Westerns. 391 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,200 S1: And Concha is on the line. Hi, Concha. Go right ahead. 392 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,359 S4: Hi. Good. Good morning. Good afternoon. 393 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,679 S1: Glad to talk with you. What's your answer to that question? 394 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,320 S4: Well, when I was a young girl, I was about 13. 395 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,550 S4: I had just accepted Christ, But right about that age. 396 00:23:30,990 --> 00:23:35,389 S4: And I was assigned, um, a book report at school. 397 00:23:35,670 --> 00:23:38,670 S4: And the book I chose to read was a man 398 00:23:38,670 --> 00:23:43,230 S4: in Black by Johnny Cash. And I read that book, 399 00:23:43,670 --> 00:23:46,510 S4: and it made such an impact on my life. I mean, 400 00:23:46,550 --> 00:23:51,109 S4: it was so. His description of his life with addiction, 401 00:23:51,630 --> 00:23:55,950 S4: the loss of his friends, the death of depression, everything 402 00:23:55,950 --> 00:24:00,950 S4: he experienced was so vivid to me that it really 403 00:24:00,950 --> 00:24:04,270 S4: guided the rest of my life after that point. And 404 00:24:04,270 --> 00:24:09,790 S4: I remember, um, I had mentioned earlier to the receptionist 405 00:24:09,790 --> 00:24:12,949 S4: that I'm 65 and I still have never had a 406 00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:16,710 S4: drop of alcohol. And I remember my kids that were 407 00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:20,030 S4: my friends that were experimenting at that time, you know, 408 00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:22,990 S4: would tease me, oh, it's because you're a Christian. You know, 409 00:24:23,030 --> 00:24:26,990 S4: and blah, blah, blah. But really, I knew, you know, 410 00:24:27,030 --> 00:24:29,550 S4: I knew enough that the Lord was going to forgive 411 00:24:29,550 --> 00:24:33,750 S4: me whatever I did at that point, but I just 412 00:24:33,750 --> 00:24:39,790 S4: knew in my heart, and I knew to myself that, um, 413 00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:46,030 S4: that type of life or that type of temptation was 414 00:24:46,030 --> 00:24:50,109 S4: something I didn't want to allow myself, because I never 415 00:24:50,150 --> 00:24:56,510 S4: wanted to experience those kind of consequences that he had vividly, 416 00:24:57,150 --> 00:24:59,350 S4: you know, described in his story. 417 00:24:59,590 --> 00:25:00,430 S3: How old were. 418 00:25:00,430 --> 00:25:02,230 S1: You when you wrote that report? 419 00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:04,830 S4: I was 13. 420 00:25:04,869 --> 00:25:05,550 S3: 13. 421 00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:08,670 S1: So it's been more than 50 years, more than 50 422 00:25:08,670 --> 00:25:11,830 S1: years since you read that book and the story of 423 00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:14,870 S1: of Johnny Cash. And there's a there's a nonfiction story. 424 00:25:14,869 --> 00:25:17,950 S1: So that can be can happen here as well. Uh, 425 00:25:17,950 --> 00:25:21,510 S1: we're talking with Cole Burgett today at the radio backyard fence, 426 00:25:21,910 --> 00:25:24,310 S1: and I'll give you a chance when we come back here. Uh, 427 00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:27,620 S1: Cole to respond to Concha. Was there a movie or 428 00:25:27,619 --> 00:25:30,340 S1: story growing up that shaped your sense of right and 429 00:25:30,340 --> 00:25:33,139 S1: wrong that has followed you, that has helped you step 430 00:25:33,140 --> 00:26:11,300 S1: into their shoes? (877) 548-3675. James Earl Jones. Now. Cole Berget 431 00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:14,780 S1: is with us. He is a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, 432 00:26:14,780 --> 00:26:19,220 S1: the Moody Bible Institute. He now teaches at Corban University, 433 00:26:19,220 --> 00:26:22,700 S1: assistant director of online and non-traditional learning, as well as 434 00:26:22,740 --> 00:26:26,610 S1: assistant professor of theology. He's written this article that I 435 00:26:26,650 --> 00:26:31,609 S1: saw in Kristen Popculture.com titled Where the Frontier Meets the 436 00:26:31,609 --> 00:26:34,890 S1: Galaxy The Western Genre and the Moral Imagination of Star Wars. 437 00:26:34,890 --> 00:26:37,330 S1: So we're talking about moral imagination today and how we 438 00:26:37,330 --> 00:26:40,210 S1: form that, how it's formed in us. And sometimes we 439 00:26:40,250 --> 00:26:45,050 S1: don't even realize how how we came to it and 440 00:26:45,050 --> 00:26:48,610 S1: how we can have a biblical imagination as well and 441 00:26:48,609 --> 00:26:52,530 S1: be informed by the stories of Scripture. So, uh, we 442 00:26:53,530 --> 00:26:56,930 S1: talked about, uh, Johnny Cash The Man in Black, this 443 00:26:56,930 --> 00:26:59,410 S1: book that she read more than 50 years ago that 444 00:26:59,410 --> 00:27:02,530 S1: has kind of shaped and formed her own life. Cole, 445 00:27:02,530 --> 00:27:03,450 S1: respond to that. 446 00:27:05,609 --> 00:27:08,970 S2: Yeah. It's interesting because one of the the great powers 447 00:27:08,970 --> 00:27:11,930 S2: of story, whether it's fiction or non-fiction, is that it 448 00:27:11,930 --> 00:27:15,570 S2: creates empathy. It lets you step inside someone else's, uh, 449 00:27:15,570 --> 00:27:20,970 S2: interior life. So with something like Johnny Cash's Man in Black. 450 00:27:21,050 --> 00:27:25,330 S2: You're not just. You're not just, you know, learning about 451 00:27:25,330 --> 00:27:30,370 S2: addiction and fame, but you're you're also inhabiting his loneliness, right? 452 00:27:30,410 --> 00:27:35,010 S2: His his defiance, the collapse that that real stubborn return 453 00:27:35,010 --> 00:27:36,810 S2: to faith. And you can you can sort of feel 454 00:27:36,810 --> 00:27:39,930 S2: the weight of it. Uh, and story, you know, has 455 00:27:39,930 --> 00:27:44,450 S2: a way of implicating you. Even non-fiction like that. Um, 456 00:27:45,170 --> 00:27:48,050 S2: and I think when you read a raw memoir, uh, 457 00:27:48,050 --> 00:27:51,690 S2: like what she was talking about, you can't stay detached. 458 00:27:51,850 --> 00:27:56,170 S2: You begin to understand why someone made the choices they made. Um, 459 00:27:56,210 --> 00:27:58,169 S2: it doesn't excuse sin, but what it does is it 460 00:27:58,210 --> 00:28:03,450 S2: deepens compassion and empathy, uh, which I think is very much, 461 00:28:03,490 --> 00:28:07,450 S2: you know, what goes on there. Empathy helps you see 462 00:28:07,490 --> 00:28:11,770 S2: complexity without collapsing into something like relativism. You can still 463 00:28:11,770 --> 00:28:16,810 S2: call something wrong, but you see the human being inside it. Yes. 464 00:28:17,050 --> 00:28:19,290 S2: And is that not exactly what the gospel calls us 465 00:28:19,290 --> 00:28:21,690 S2: to do, to enter someone else's suffering, to weep. 466 00:28:21,690 --> 00:28:22,330 S3: With those getting. 467 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,000 S1: Harder and harder to do that, Cole, with the world 468 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,439 S1: that we live in, because it is black and white. 469 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,000 S1: It's if you believe, if you voted that way, if 470 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,320 S1: you think this, then you're not, you know, I'm canceling you. 471 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,600 S2: And but that's why this matters right now. Because we 472 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,120 S2: live in such a, a shallow information age. Because ultimately, 473 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,800 S2: that's what it is to me. Right. That's shallow. We 474 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:48,240 S2: we consume headlines, clips, hot takes, reactions. But but wisdom 475 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,280 S2: requires sustained attention and narrative, be it fiction or nonfiction, 476 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,560 S2: trains that muscle of attention. It forces you to follow 477 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,480 S2: a character through failure, through repentance, through waiting, through endurance. 478 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,760 S2: And everyone has taste today. But very few people have 479 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,840 S2: have wisdom and narrative trains that through discernment, through patience, 480 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,959 S2: things like that, virtues that you just can't download as definitions. Right. 481 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,040 S2: And to your point, Chris, we are in a moment 482 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,360 S2: where not only is it black and white, but literacy 483 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,590 S2: is thinning, right? And I'm not talking just about the 484 00:29:22,590 --> 00:29:26,990 S2: ability to decode words, but the ability to read attentively. 485 00:29:27,390 --> 00:29:30,910 S2: And that matters spiritually, right? Because Christians are people of 486 00:29:30,950 --> 00:29:34,350 S2: a of a book. And if we lose the ability 487 00:29:34,350 --> 00:29:40,390 S2: to read, well, we lose the ability to be formed. Well. Um, 488 00:29:41,150 --> 00:29:43,070 S2: and so in a lot of ways, the Bible assumes 489 00:29:43,070 --> 00:29:46,150 S2: very patient reading and in a very real sense, assumes 490 00:29:46,150 --> 00:29:49,510 S2: one is going to do, um or ought to do, 491 00:29:49,550 --> 00:29:53,990 S2: I should say. Exactly. Uh, what she was talking about this. 492 00:29:54,030 --> 00:29:56,470 S2: I can read this and inhabit these characters in these 493 00:29:56,470 --> 00:29:58,510 S2: stories and understand that I don't necessarily want to go 494 00:29:58,510 --> 00:30:01,510 S2: down the road that that this person went down. Uh, 495 00:30:01,510 --> 00:30:03,670 S2: and it forms you in a very real sense. 496 00:30:03,950 --> 00:30:04,430 S3: Yes. 497 00:30:04,830 --> 00:30:09,590 S1: Uh, Angela says old Westerns, like, in answer to the question, 498 00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:12,550 S1: I should give you the question again. Uh, was there 499 00:30:12,550 --> 00:30:14,750 S1: a movie or story growing up shaped your sense of 500 00:30:14,750 --> 00:30:18,230 S1: right and wrong? And she says, The Rifleman, which I 501 00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:21,550 S1: remember from my childhood. This was black and white. Chuck Connors, 502 00:30:21,550 --> 00:30:24,310 S1: who played for the Dodgers, but now he was The Rifleman. 503 00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:28,230 S1: And then shows like The Waltons and and in all 504 00:30:28,270 --> 00:30:33,110 S1: of those episodes of those TV shows, what you basically 505 00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:36,070 S1: have is people who are minding their own business and 506 00:30:36,070 --> 00:30:40,550 S1: somebody comes in to make some conflict to, to up, 507 00:30:40,670 --> 00:30:44,830 S1: to throw up over the status quo. So they've got 508 00:30:44,870 --> 00:30:48,670 S1: to deal with it. And everybody in the shows, the 509 00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:52,270 S1: stories deal with it in a different way. And you 510 00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:54,070 S1: hope for a hero, right? 511 00:30:54,670 --> 00:31:00,390 S2: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, especially The Rifleman, uh, which is 512 00:31:00,390 --> 00:31:03,270 S2: a show. Funny. Funnily enough, this is something, uh, Rosie 513 00:31:03,270 --> 00:31:06,670 S2: and I have talked about. Uh, she'll she'll watch. She'll 514 00:31:06,670 --> 00:31:11,070 S2: watch The Rifleman. Um, and this comes up in some conversations, uh, 515 00:31:11,070 --> 00:31:14,030 S2: and the Waltons, uh, for though maybe a little lesser 516 00:31:14,030 --> 00:31:17,990 S2: well known. Um, but it's, uh, it's this depression era 517 00:31:18,100 --> 00:31:22,180 S2: family in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Um, but it's it's 518 00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:26,540 S2: it's very wholesome. Um, and the show is it's kind 519 00:31:26,540 --> 00:31:29,140 S2: of follows this character named John Boy, who, you know, 520 00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:31,900 S2: goes to college and, and serves in World War Two, 521 00:31:31,940 --> 00:31:34,300 S2: becomes a novelist, that kind of thing. But the point is, 522 00:31:34,300 --> 00:31:37,700 S2: the stories are very wholesome. And like The Rifleman, uh, 523 00:31:37,780 --> 00:31:41,700 S2: you sort of look for the emergence of, of a hero. Um, 524 00:31:42,300 --> 00:31:47,180 S2: and you, you walk through that process alongside the characters. 525 00:31:47,180 --> 00:31:49,820 S2: You don't, you know, you don't learn patience by reading 526 00:31:49,820 --> 00:31:53,220 S2: a definition of patience. You learn it by walking, walking 527 00:31:53,220 --> 00:31:57,980 S2: with Joseph through betrayal in prison in the same way of, uh, courage. Right? 528 00:31:58,100 --> 00:32:01,260 S2: You don't necessarily learn courage by reading a definition of it, 529 00:32:01,260 --> 00:32:07,780 S2: but you watch Chuck Connors character, um, be courageous. You 530 00:32:07,820 --> 00:32:11,340 S2: watch him be heroic. Um, and so that that right 531 00:32:11,340 --> 00:32:13,780 S2: there is the moral imagination at work. And it is, 532 00:32:13,780 --> 00:32:17,650 S2: in a very real sense, kind of training the muscle memory, 533 00:32:17,650 --> 00:32:21,610 S2: if you will, uh, in a way that, you know, 534 00:32:22,050 --> 00:32:24,770 S2: something like a systematic theology textbook just doesn't. 535 00:32:25,010 --> 00:32:25,530 S3: Yes. 536 00:32:25,850 --> 00:32:28,930 S1: Uh, Chris is in Nashville. Chris. Why did you call today? 537 00:32:29,530 --> 00:32:32,490 S5: Yes, I called about the movie The Power of One, 538 00:32:32,490 --> 00:32:36,130 S5: if you haven't seen. It was around 1992. I think 539 00:32:36,130 --> 00:32:40,690 S5: it came out. The premise was pre-World War two. Morgan 540 00:32:40,690 --> 00:32:45,410 S5: Freeman is a prisoner of war there in South Africa. Apartheid. 541 00:32:45,410 --> 00:32:48,370 S5: He meets a young boy, encourages him to box. That 542 00:32:48,370 --> 00:32:53,290 S5: character was PK. Uh, he goes off to school, comes back. 543 00:32:53,930 --> 00:32:56,610 S5: The idea was he, uh, you know, he saw the 544 00:32:57,170 --> 00:33:01,290 S5: injustice and started teaching the children of the Zulu nation. Um, 545 00:33:01,330 --> 00:33:04,610 S5: he was also adopted by a piano teacher who eventually, 546 00:33:04,610 --> 00:33:07,690 S5: at the end of the movie, the, you know, there was, uh, 547 00:33:07,730 --> 00:33:10,730 S5: Morgan was severely beaten because of he was standing up 548 00:33:10,730 --> 00:33:14,490 S5: for his rights to human dignity in it, but the 549 00:33:14,490 --> 00:33:18,850 S5: whole PK Becoming the leader in fighting against the apartheid 550 00:33:18,850 --> 00:33:21,290 S5: and the suppression of the people and then teaching them. 551 00:33:21,610 --> 00:33:23,810 S5: It always affected me, and it's kind of like you 552 00:33:23,810 --> 00:33:27,770 S5: guys are saying he became that hero, that moral compass, 553 00:33:28,290 --> 00:33:32,490 S5: to stand up for the injustices in the movie. I always. 554 00:33:32,530 --> 00:33:35,250 S5: And then, you know, it's kind of it had that premise. 555 00:33:35,890 --> 00:33:37,930 S5: The power of one was about there was a moment 556 00:33:37,930 --> 00:33:39,770 S5: in the movie where he said, see that one drop 557 00:33:39,770 --> 00:33:42,930 S5: of rain, that one drop of rain becomes a, you know, waterfall, 558 00:33:43,290 --> 00:33:46,850 S5: and you can be that one drop. And so, yeah. 559 00:33:47,210 --> 00:33:51,850 S1: Giving you giving one person, giving another person a vision 560 00:33:51,850 --> 00:33:56,810 S1: that they don't have for themselves. So and that echoes 561 00:33:56,810 --> 00:34:01,130 S1: to me, Cole, the same thing about the Star Wars 562 00:34:01,170 --> 00:34:04,690 S1: and becoming the Padawan and, you know, the, the force 563 00:34:04,690 --> 00:34:06,530 S1: that I know there's problems with the force and all that, 564 00:34:06,530 --> 00:34:11,010 S1: but being trained by someone who knows more than you, 565 00:34:11,050 --> 00:34:12,810 S1: that's formation, isn't it? 566 00:34:13,130 --> 00:34:16,640 S2: Absolutely. Um, and it's a, it's a hallmark of of Westerns. 567 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,000 S2: Look at Shane, which is a book that I, uh, 568 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,520 S2: I have a Christ in Literature course. I put together 569 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,640 S2: that we. That's our capstone book, right? That's the book 570 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:29,560 S2: we finished with, uh, which is very similar to this. Um, uh, and, 571 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,879 S2: you know, the, the great, you know, space western that 572 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,279 S2: is the Mandalorian, right? That everybody is, is kind of 573 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,319 S2: watching now and has a film coming out later this year. 574 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,120 S2: It's a space Western through and through. Um, I mean, 575 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,520 S2: it's kind of the same idea. Um, there's a younger character, 576 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,000 S2: a child, um, that features very prominently in the marketing 577 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,960 S2: and that kind of thing. But the, the main character 578 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,040 S2: is this sort of, you know, gunslinger type, uh, who 579 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,080 S2: encounters this, this child and sort of takes him under 580 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,319 S2: his wing kind of thing so that that type of, uh, 581 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,920 S2: what you're talking about, what you're describing is, uh, territory 582 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,080 S2: that the Western knows very, very well. And, and Star 583 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:07,720 S2: Wars knows well as, as well. 584 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:08,960 S3: So we did a. 585 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,640 S1: Program on this, and I asked people to call in 586 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,189 S1: and tell me why as I'm getting older, why do 587 00:35:16,190 --> 00:35:19,589 S1: I like Westerns so much? And I would say the 588 00:35:19,590 --> 00:35:23,110 S1: Star Wars thing. I really didn't get into those as much. 589 00:35:23,150 --> 00:35:26,790 S1: My kids really loved them. Um, but I'm more if 590 00:35:26,830 --> 00:35:29,950 S1: you give me an opportunity to watch an old Western or, 591 00:35:29,989 --> 00:35:32,469 S1: you know, something newer, I'm going to choose the old Western. 592 00:35:32,469 --> 00:35:35,830 S1: Why is that? And many people said, called and said 593 00:35:36,070 --> 00:35:38,469 S1: there is a clear sense of right and wrong. There's 594 00:35:38,469 --> 00:35:40,230 S1: a good guy, there's a bad guy, you know, that 595 00:35:40,230 --> 00:35:44,509 S1: kind of those those tropes or those plot lines. But 596 00:35:44,510 --> 00:35:50,550 S1: there's also this idea of overcoming the obstacles, uh, through 597 00:35:50,750 --> 00:35:56,509 S1: grit and tenacity and teamwork is part of that as well. Right? 598 00:35:57,350 --> 00:36:01,109 S2: Oh, yeah. Yeah. The, uh, the old black and white 599 00:36:01,110 --> 00:36:04,230 S2: morality idea is there. I think we have to be 600 00:36:04,230 --> 00:36:08,190 S2: careful not to, um, to to suggest that what that 601 00:36:08,190 --> 00:36:10,989 S2: does is make the story sort of shallow, because that's 602 00:36:11,030 --> 00:36:13,069 S2: often how this goes. Sure, there are a lot of 603 00:36:13,070 --> 00:36:16,230 S2: shallow westerns out there, but the best of them, um, 604 00:36:16,270 --> 00:36:19,029 S2: have a very clear sense of right and wrong, a 605 00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:21,629 S2: very strong sense of right and wrong and a sense 606 00:36:21,630 --> 00:36:25,109 S2: of morality. And, you know, I think as, as you 607 00:36:25,110 --> 00:36:29,069 S2: get older, um, and, you know, the world, the world 608 00:36:29,070 --> 00:36:32,750 S2: is what it is, uh, you kind of coming to, 609 00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:35,310 S2: coming back to a Western or discovering a Western is 610 00:36:35,310 --> 00:36:37,950 S2: kind of like coming home again. Yes. It's like going 611 00:36:37,950 --> 00:36:41,350 S2: back to childhood. Right? Um, and it's why something like 612 00:36:41,350 --> 00:36:43,430 S2: a Star Wars. It's why you have, you know, 40 613 00:36:43,469 --> 00:36:45,910 S2: and 50 year old fans who are still dressing up 614 00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:48,469 S2: in costumes and going to movies, right? No judgment, if 615 00:36:48,469 --> 00:36:50,950 S2: that's what you're doing. But the point is, you know, 616 00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:55,030 S2: generally speaking, somebody's going to say, why is this person 617 00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:58,390 S2: doing that? Why is this grown adult, uh, putting on 618 00:36:58,390 --> 00:37:01,230 S2: a costume like they're a child and going to to 619 00:37:01,270 --> 00:37:06,109 S2: watch a movie? And it's because it's recapturing a part 620 00:37:06,110 --> 00:37:09,350 S2: of that. And when you simply call it nostalgia, uh, 621 00:37:09,469 --> 00:37:13,260 S2: you're sort of, I think shallowing out the real power 622 00:37:13,260 --> 00:37:16,300 S2: those stories have, which is the power to stick with you, 623 00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:18,100 S2: and not only to stick with you, but to take 624 00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:21,580 S2: on different layers of meaning as one goes through the 625 00:37:21,580 --> 00:37:26,660 S2: stages of life. That's what makes these mythic stories powerful. Um, 626 00:37:27,260 --> 00:37:30,420 S2: and it's the Western and Star Wars. They all kind 627 00:37:30,460 --> 00:37:32,020 S2: of play in that same realm. 628 00:37:33,300 --> 00:37:35,459 S3: That's really that's really deep. 629 00:37:35,460 --> 00:37:37,940 S1: And I'm going to have to think more about it. Cole, 630 00:37:37,980 --> 00:37:40,219 S1: Bridget is with us today, and if you want to 631 00:37:40,219 --> 00:37:43,339 S1: find out more about the article that he's written, uh, 632 00:37:43,340 --> 00:37:46,060 S1: Where the Frontier Meets the Galaxy, we have a clip. 633 00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:53,420 S1: Just click it at Livorno. Chris Fabbri, Livorno more straight 634 00:37:53,420 --> 00:38:18,610 S1: ahead on Moody Radio. A lot of response on Facebook today, 635 00:38:18,610 --> 00:38:20,770 S1: and there are so many of these. There's an old 636 00:38:20,770 --> 00:38:26,250 S1: film from 1951, The Day the Earth Stood Still. My 637 00:38:26,250 --> 00:38:32,410 S1: pal Jill says, silent running fill my. My friend Phil 638 00:38:32,410 --> 00:38:36,210 S1: from Adventures in Odyssey says the Ox-bow incident, the searchers, 639 00:38:36,210 --> 00:38:40,609 S1: the Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, the Cavalry, films of 640 00:38:40,610 --> 00:38:45,689 S1: John Ford, Certain Twilight Zone and Star Trek episodes. We're 641 00:38:45,690 --> 00:38:49,650 S1: talking about the moral imagination and how it's formed in us. 642 00:38:50,010 --> 00:38:53,010 S1: And Cole Burgett is joining us today. I had something 643 00:38:53,010 --> 00:38:55,330 S1: that bubbled up to me. Cole, I want to run 644 00:38:55,330 --> 00:38:59,250 S1: this past you because as a child, I remember and 645 00:38:59,250 --> 00:39:02,330 S1: I can still hear not only the whistling theme, but 646 00:39:02,330 --> 00:39:04,890 S1: some of the bumper themes of The Andy Griffith Show. 647 00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:09,530 S1: And it's it's a, you know, small town North Carolina. 648 00:39:09,770 --> 00:39:12,089 S1: But there is a sense of a feel of the 649 00:39:12,090 --> 00:39:15,890 S1: frontier with the people who come out from outside in 650 00:39:15,930 --> 00:39:19,450 S1: a lot of times will be those who disrupt things. 651 00:39:19,969 --> 00:39:23,770 S1: But the the thing that the imagination that I have 652 00:39:23,770 --> 00:39:28,250 S1: felt like Andy Griffith did for me is as a child, 653 00:39:28,690 --> 00:39:32,410 S1: I picked up that, uh, anybody that had a barney 654 00:39:32,410 --> 00:39:36,250 S1: would have a problem Barney would feel bad about. He 655 00:39:36,250 --> 00:39:39,490 S1: did one thing or another, and Andy would in some 656 00:39:39,489 --> 00:39:43,130 S1: way manipulate it. You know, they he and Helen or 657 00:39:43,130 --> 00:39:46,410 S1: whoever it was, would hide in the cave so that 658 00:39:46,410 --> 00:39:49,129 S1: Barney would find them and he'd be the hero, and 659 00:39:49,130 --> 00:39:52,410 S1: everything came out okay. And there were so many ways 660 00:39:52,410 --> 00:39:54,489 S1: that Andy, if he could figure it out, if he 661 00:39:54,489 --> 00:39:58,850 S1: could think it through like Barney was singing off key. 662 00:39:59,370 --> 00:40:02,489 S1: And so he gave him a special microphone and had 663 00:40:02,489 --> 00:40:07,960 S1: somebody singing off of off stage for him. Andy could 664 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,120 S1: make it so that Barney was was okay with everything 665 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,360 S1: that was going on, and it made everything all right. 666 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:19,840 S1: So the in my formative years, what I thought we 667 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,719 S1: was supposed to do is be like Andy and make 668 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:28,280 S1: everything okay. That the goal was to success was everything 669 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,640 S1: turns out right for everybody. And everybody feels good about themselves. 670 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,040 S1: And you're in control. Meaning I'm in control of that. 671 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,800 S1: I've got to figure it out. And the longer I've lived, 672 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,719 S1: the more I see. Oh, I believe that back there. And, 673 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,600 S1: you know, I don't want to paint in my life 674 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,120 S1: or anybody else's life. That can be a very, um, 675 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,359 S1: disrupting thing when you when life hits you in the 676 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:56,640 S1: smack upside the head. Right. 677 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,640 S2: Absolutely. Well, and that's kind of the point of these 678 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,719 S2: kinds of stories that it's it's not always going to 679 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,910 S2: work out, uh, the way that you, you want it to. Um, 680 00:41:07,710 --> 00:41:12,150 S2: there's a difference between moral imagination and naive idealism. And 681 00:41:12,190 --> 00:41:16,630 S2: what you're actually describing is, in some ways, it's a 682 00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:19,990 S2: theme that does occur in Star Wars several times, actually, 683 00:41:19,989 --> 00:41:24,070 S2: in the original trilogy, um, at least in The Empire 684 00:41:24,070 --> 00:41:26,069 S2: Strikes Back, which is the one everybody knows. You know, 685 00:41:26,110 --> 00:41:29,390 S2: Luke's great conviction is if I go to if I 686 00:41:29,390 --> 00:41:31,509 S2: go to Vader, I, you know, I'll go and I'll 687 00:41:31,510 --> 00:41:34,469 S2: save my friends. Um, and this is all going to 688 00:41:34,469 --> 00:41:37,310 S2: work out okay. And his mentors, you know, Yoda, Obi-Wan, 689 00:41:37,310 --> 00:41:39,549 S2: they're trying to tell him like, this is this is 690 00:41:39,550 --> 00:41:41,109 S2: not going to go the way that you think it will, 691 00:41:41,110 --> 00:41:42,989 S2: and it doesn't. And it blows up in his face. 692 00:41:42,989 --> 00:41:45,430 S2: And he learns the truth about Vader, and he loses 693 00:41:45,430 --> 00:41:48,350 S2: the fight, that kind of thing. Same thing in, um, 694 00:41:48,750 --> 00:41:51,670 S2: The Last Jedi. Uh, you know, Rey, the character Rey, 695 00:41:52,110 --> 00:41:54,790 S2: played by Daisy Ridley, is convinced that if she goes 696 00:41:54,790 --> 00:41:56,790 S2: to to Kylo Ren, she's going to turn him back 697 00:41:56,790 --> 00:41:58,709 S2: to the good side. And Luke is trying to tell 698 00:41:58,710 --> 00:42:00,310 S2: her this is not going to go the way that 699 00:42:00,310 --> 00:42:05,739 S2: you think. Uh, so idealism in the unhealthy sense flattens reality. 700 00:42:06,300 --> 00:42:08,460 S2: It assumes that people are basically good and that everything 701 00:42:08,460 --> 00:42:10,379 S2: is going to work out, especially if you just feel 702 00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:14,339 S2: strongly enough. And that tips over into sentimentality, right? When 703 00:42:14,340 --> 00:42:18,100 S2: we substitute feeling for truth. And if you sentimentalize a Western, 704 00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:21,180 S2: which happens all the time, you're turning it into nostalgia. 705 00:42:21,460 --> 00:42:24,900 S2: And when you sentimentalize the gospel, which never happens, right? 706 00:42:25,060 --> 00:42:28,060 S2: Never do we do that. You turn it into this 707 00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:32,020 S2: kind of therapeutic optimism, and both are distortions. Good stories 708 00:42:32,020 --> 00:42:36,140 S2: are not sentimental. They're honest. The Western, at its best, 709 00:42:36,140 --> 00:42:41,420 S2: is harsh. It shows greed, betrayal, cowardice, even violence. And 710 00:42:41,420 --> 00:42:45,700 S2: the Bible is the same way. Scripture is brutally unsentimental 711 00:42:45,860 --> 00:42:50,740 S2: about human nature. David commits adultery and murder. Peter denies Christ, 712 00:42:50,739 --> 00:42:54,180 S2: Israel repeatedly fails. And there's no varnish on any of that. 713 00:42:55,140 --> 00:42:57,779 S2: And that's why these stories form us rightly, because they're 714 00:42:57,780 --> 00:43:01,859 S2: not flattering us. Uh, and, you know, empathy doesn't mean 715 00:43:01,860 --> 00:43:08,540 S2: excusing sin, it means understanding context without denying responsibility. Uh, 716 00:43:08,540 --> 00:43:10,580 S2: you know, sentimentality says, well, he had a hard life, 717 00:43:10,580 --> 00:43:14,180 S2: so it's understandable. But the formed moral imagination says, well, 718 00:43:14,180 --> 00:43:16,779 S2: I see how brokenness shaped this, and I still see 719 00:43:16,780 --> 00:43:19,940 S2: the need for repentance and grace. That's a much firmer stance. 720 00:43:20,500 --> 00:43:22,460 S3: Yeah, so much here. 721 00:43:22,460 --> 00:43:25,580 S1: Before we end, I wanted Brooke from Pennsylvania to talk 722 00:43:25,580 --> 00:43:27,140 S1: to you. Hi, Brooke. Go right ahead. 723 00:43:27,980 --> 00:43:32,100 S6: Hi. Um, I so really appreciate your guest, because, um, 724 00:43:32,100 --> 00:43:36,660 S6: I grew up with my dad, um, loving, um, fairy 725 00:43:36,660 --> 00:43:40,459 S6: tales and fantasy stories and always recommending that book, um, 726 00:43:40,460 --> 00:43:45,779 S6: by Bruno Bettelheim. Uh, The Uses of Enchantment. Um, so 727 00:43:45,780 --> 00:43:49,460 S6: I don't know if you've read that, but, um, but 728 00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:54,140 S6: so formative, formative movie that I that came to my 729 00:43:54,140 --> 00:43:56,940 S6: mind when I was listening to your podcast was, um, 730 00:43:57,820 --> 00:44:00,620 S6: it it may sound a little childish, but it's the 731 00:44:00,620 --> 00:44:06,570 S6: last Unicorn, and it's written by a a prolific fantasy 732 00:44:06,570 --> 00:44:13,170 S6: writer named Peter Beagle. And, um, it is just, you know, 733 00:44:13,210 --> 00:44:16,930 S6: something where that you have to do when you're or 734 00:44:16,969 --> 00:44:20,930 S6: that that occurs for people that are searching, um, when 735 00:44:20,930 --> 00:44:27,050 S6: you're watching a movie, um, because it doesn't occur in story, um, 736 00:44:27,090 --> 00:44:31,890 S6: as much. Um, but because when you're reading, because you're 737 00:44:31,890 --> 00:44:34,489 S6: not looking at images, but when you have to, when 738 00:44:34,489 --> 00:44:38,009 S6: you see a or feel a pull of a storyline 739 00:44:38,010 --> 00:44:42,130 S6: that goes is beneath the images. Um, I feel like, 740 00:44:42,330 --> 00:44:47,529 S6: you know, I didn't think that the unicorn represented Jesus. 741 00:44:47,530 --> 00:44:54,130 S6: But for me now, when I am older, I realized 742 00:44:54,130 --> 00:44:58,450 S6: that it really helped me, um, realize that truth can 743 00:44:58,450 --> 00:45:03,800 S6: be attempted to be commandeered by many people and distorted 744 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,000 S6: for their own personal uses. Um. 745 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,080 S1: I'm glad you got through today with that, because that's 746 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,840 S1: a new one for me. Brooke Cole, I want to 747 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:14,440 S1: give you an opportunity. We got a minute and a 748 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:15,480 S1: half left. Go ahead. 749 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,600 S2: Yeah. The last unicorn. Um, there was a film adaptation, 750 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,640 S2: animated film adaptation, a film adaptation. The, uh, Arthur Rankin 751 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,960 S2: did it. Um, and I think Christopher Lee is even 752 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,520 S2: in it, but, yeah, it's, uh, seeing those connections without 753 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,239 S2: necessarily stumbling over into allegory. Right. You're not going to 754 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,040 S2: say Jesus is the unicorn, uh, or the unicorn is Jesus. 755 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,839 S2: But what you do see, uh, are those connective threads 756 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,400 S2: that run through it. Um, and I think that happens 757 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:50,280 S2: because they're mythic stories. Uh, they play in that same realm. Um, 758 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,600 S2: and again, this is another great example of it prepares 759 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,239 S2: you baptizes your imagination in a very real sense so 760 00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,239 S2: that you when you get older, you can see, ah, 761 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,360 S2: that's kind of like Christ. Mhm. 762 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,319 S1: Help me to Lord to not be sentimental with the 763 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,000 S1: gospel and show me where I am being sentimental with 764 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,520 S1: it so that I can avoid that. Uh, Cole writes, 765 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,200 S1: for Christians, these themes land close to home because they 766 00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:21,040 S1: mirror the moral terrain we actually walk. You can read 767 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,080 S1: that article. We have a link to it at Chris 768 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,720 S1: Dot Where the Frontier meets the Galaxy. It's, uh, located 769 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,879 S1: at Christ and Popculture.com. Cole, great to get to talk 770 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,120 S1: with you. This is our first time I've emailed with 771 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,239 S1: you before. First time to get to talk with you. 772 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:37,640 S1: Come back and see us. Okay. 773 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,720 S2: It's been a pleasure, Chris. Thank you so much. 774 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:45,040 S1: It's Cole. Brigette. Find out more about him at Chris. Org. 775 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,000 S1: Have a great weekend, Mr. Love language himself. Coming up 776 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,120 S1: Monday on Chris Fabry live production of Moody Radio, a 777 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,320 S1: ministry of Moody Bible Institute.