1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,320 S1: Hi, friends. This is Janet Partial. Thanks so much for 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:06,600 S1: downloading the broadcast and I hope what you hear will encourage, edify, equip, enlighten, 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,120 S1: and get you out there into the marketplace of ideas. 4 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,160 S1: But before you go, let me tell you about this 5 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,640 S1: month's truce tool. It's written by Robert Morgan, who is 6 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,800 S1: one of my very favorite authors. Through the story of 7 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,400 S1: Zachariah and Elizabeth, we are reminded that God remembers us 8 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,160 S1: and keeps his promises. And what Robert does is he 9 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,920 S1: does a deep dive into Scripture around the birth of 10 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,840 S1: the Messiah and helps us discover the glorious, victorious life 11 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,400 S1: that awaits us in Christ. And in this book, he 12 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,880 S1: reminds us that God has appointed you for this very 13 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,200 S1: special time, that God works grace into your grief, that 14 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,760 S1: God wants to use you, whatever your age. That God 15 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,920 S1: can eradicate fear from your heart, and that God desires 16 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,959 S1: your help in raising up a new generation to serve him. 17 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,519 S1: It is, in a word, a fabulous book, and I 18 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,240 S1: hope you'll want to get a copy. We're listener supported radio, 19 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:53,880 S1: and it's my way of saying thank you. When you 20 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,480 S1: give a financial gift of any amount to in the market. 21 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,840 S1: So to get your copy of God Hasn't Forgotten you, 22 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:04,230 S1: just call 877. Janet 58. That's 877. Janet 58. Give 23 00:01:04,230 --> 00:01:06,030 S1: a gift of any amount and we'll send you a copy. 24 00:01:06,030 --> 00:01:08,110 S1: Or you can do it online in the market with 25 00:01:08,110 --> 00:01:11,389 S1: Janet Parshall. Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's 26 00:01:11,390 --> 00:01:13,710 S1: the cover of the book. Make your donation and I'll 27 00:01:13,709 --> 00:01:16,510 S1: send you a copy of God Hasn't Forgotten You. You 28 00:01:16,510 --> 00:01:19,110 S1: also might want to prayerfully consider becoming a partial partner. 29 00:01:19,110 --> 00:01:21,350 S1: Those are our dear friends who give every single month 30 00:01:21,350 --> 00:01:24,030 S1: at a level of their own choosing. You will always 31 00:01:24,030 --> 00:01:25,950 S1: get the truth tool for the month, but in addition 32 00:01:25,950 --> 00:01:28,550 S1: to that, you will get a weekly newsletter comprised of 33 00:01:28,550 --> 00:01:31,830 S1: my writing and an audio piece just for my partial partners. 34 00:01:31,830 --> 00:01:34,709 S1: So again, thank you in advance for financially supporting in 35 00:01:34,750 --> 00:01:38,030 S1: the market with Janet partial because it keeps us moving forward. 36 00:01:38,069 --> 00:01:41,149 S1: Eight seven, seven Janet 58. Or online at in the 37 00:01:41,190 --> 00:01:44,030 S1: market with Janet partial dot o r g. Now please 38 00:01:44,030 --> 00:01:52,710 S1: enjoy the broadcast. Hi friends, this is Janet Partial. Thanks 39 00:01:52,710 --> 00:01:55,070 S1: so much for choosing to spend the next hour with us. 40 00:01:55,070 --> 00:01:58,419 S1: Today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. 41 00:01:58,420 --> 00:02:00,620 S1: But thanks so much for being with us and enjoy 42 00:02:00,620 --> 00:02:01,540 S1: the broadcast. 43 00:02:04,900 --> 00:02:06,900 S2: What are you willing to give me if I deliver 44 00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:07,620 S2: him to you? 45 00:02:11,500 --> 00:02:14,260 S3: And they counted out to him 30 pieces of silver. 46 00:02:14,860 --> 00:02:19,100 S3: So from that time, he sought opportunity to betray him. Now, 47 00:02:19,100 --> 00:02:21,580 S3: on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, 48 00:02:21,740 --> 00:02:23,580 S3: the disciples came to Jesus. 49 00:02:24,260 --> 00:02:26,460 S4: Where do you want us to prepare for you to 50 00:02:26,500 --> 00:02:27,540 S4: eat the Passover? 51 00:02:28,060 --> 00:02:31,339 S5: Go into the city to a certain man and say 52 00:02:31,340 --> 00:02:36,260 S5: to him, the teacher says, my time is at hand. 53 00:02:37,419 --> 00:02:40,540 S5: I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples. 54 00:02:48,580 --> 00:02:52,500 S3: So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and 55 00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:56,570 S3: they prepared the Passover. When evening had come, He sat 56 00:02:56,610 --> 00:03:01,690 S3: down with the 12. Now as they were eating, he said. 57 00:03:02,010 --> 00:03:06,850 S5: Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray me. 58 00:03:09,370 --> 00:03:13,330 S3: And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began 59 00:03:13,330 --> 00:03:14,250 S3: to say to him. 60 00:03:14,770 --> 00:03:16,530 S6: Lord, is it I. 61 00:03:17,370 --> 00:03:19,889 S7: Lord? Is it I? 62 00:03:20,410 --> 00:03:22,730 S5: He who dipped his hand with me in the dish 63 00:03:22,730 --> 00:03:27,490 S5: will betray me. The Son of Man indeed goes just 64 00:03:27,490 --> 00:03:31,250 S5: as it is written of him. But woe to that 65 00:03:31,250 --> 00:03:35,770 S5: man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It 66 00:03:35,770 --> 00:03:37,930 S5: would have been good for that man if he had 67 00:03:37,930 --> 00:03:38,850 S5: not been born. 68 00:03:40,850 --> 00:03:45,089 S3: Then Judas, who was betraying him, answered Rabbi. 69 00:03:46,450 --> 00:03:47,170 S2: Is it I. 70 00:03:48,370 --> 00:03:49,610 S5: You have said it. 71 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,960 S1: As we think what Jesus did for us. If it 72 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:02,440 S1: doesn't take our breath away, then I think we fail 73 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,440 S1: to understand the profundity of what he did for us. 74 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,960 S1: God so loved. How do you put love and a 75 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,640 S1: cross together? That's what we're going to talk about this hour. 76 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,360 S1: So loved the world that he gave his only son, 77 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,600 S1: that whoever believes in him will not perish but have 78 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,440 S1: everlasting life. Welcome to In the market with Janet partial 79 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,400 S1: this hour we're going to spend looking at the crucifixion 80 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,000 S1: of Jesus. And what a particularly interesting vantage point we 81 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,160 S1: will look at this from. We're going to talk to 82 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,400 S1: a medical doctor, because this medical doctor has written a 83 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,240 S1: book that examines the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 84 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,200 S1: Doctor Joe Bergeron is with us. He is a physical 85 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,640 S1: medicine and rehabilitation specialist in Indianapolis, Indiana. He's been practicing 86 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,960 S1: for almost three decades. He authored a peer reviewed medical 87 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,760 S1: journal article on Jesus's cause of death for the Journal 88 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,310 S1: of Forensic and Legal Medicine. He also co-authored an article 89 00:04:55,310 --> 00:04:57,950 S1: with Doctor Gary Habermas. He's been on this program several 90 00:04:57,950 --> 00:05:01,750 S1: times for the Irish Theological Quarterly. They decided that they 91 00:05:01,750 --> 00:05:05,630 S1: would examine something known as the hallucination hypothesis. That, of course, 92 00:05:05,630 --> 00:05:08,950 S1: seeks to explain away the disciples belief that Jesus had 93 00:05:08,950 --> 00:05:12,589 S1: in fact risen bodily from the dead. So he then 94 00:05:12,630 --> 00:05:15,390 S1: went one step further to write this amazing book that 95 00:05:15,390 --> 00:05:18,830 S1: not only looks at the physicality of crucifixion, complete with 96 00:05:18,830 --> 00:05:23,430 S1: artists works and bones and graphics, but also the history 97 00:05:23,430 --> 00:05:26,710 S1: of what's going on, the political history, the biblical history, 98 00:05:26,710 --> 00:05:29,190 S1: the eyewitness accounts and puts it all together in a 99 00:05:29,190 --> 00:05:32,710 S1: book called The Crucifixion of Jesus. A Medical doctor examines 100 00:05:32,710 --> 00:05:35,589 S1: the death and resurrection of Christ. Doctor Bergeron, I thank 101 00:05:35,589 --> 00:05:37,630 S1: you from the bottom of my heart, not just for 102 00:05:37,630 --> 00:05:39,430 S1: the gift of your book, for the gift of your 103 00:05:39,430 --> 00:05:42,390 S1: time as well. And it's very clear that while you 104 00:05:42,390 --> 00:05:45,430 S1: practice medicine, you have a passion for apologetics. Tell me 105 00:05:45,430 --> 00:05:47,350 S1: how that was birthed in your life. 106 00:05:48,029 --> 00:05:50,590 S8: Well, good to be with you, Janet. I love your 107 00:05:50,589 --> 00:05:54,140 S8: show and I'm a listener. Um, 35 years ago, I 108 00:05:54,140 --> 00:05:58,659 S8: was in ministry and I, uh, did some missionary work 109 00:05:58,660 --> 00:06:02,580 S8: in those days and retained the passion to share the gospel. 110 00:06:03,100 --> 00:06:08,300 S8: And as I transitioned into a medical life, I've done 111 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:12,580 S8: some missionary work, but I became interested in telling the 112 00:06:12,580 --> 00:06:16,660 S8: story of Jesus from a medical perspective. Uh, it started 113 00:06:16,660 --> 00:06:18,860 S8: in 2008 when I was asked to give a lecture 114 00:06:18,860 --> 00:06:22,860 S8: for the Christian student group at Indiana University. And that 115 00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:26,460 S8: launched me onto an obsession of, of study that has 116 00:06:26,500 --> 00:06:30,779 S8: spanned the decade and resulted in the two journal articles 117 00:06:30,779 --> 00:06:32,779 S8: you mentioned, as well as the book, each of which 118 00:06:32,779 --> 00:06:34,380 S8: took several years to write. 119 00:06:34,700 --> 00:06:38,340 S1: You could embrace this academically. You could look at this medically. 120 00:06:38,339 --> 00:06:41,099 S1: But I believe that the way you've looked at this 121 00:06:41,100 --> 00:06:44,339 S1: tells me, especially if you've stayed with this topic, that 122 00:06:44,339 --> 00:06:47,260 S1: there's something that fuels your faith, your belief in what 123 00:06:47,300 --> 00:06:50,409 S1: Jesus did for us by studying this? Is that a 124 00:06:50,410 --> 00:06:51,770 S1: right presumption on my part? 125 00:06:52,690 --> 00:06:56,130 S8: Oh, yes. And as I said in the prologue of 126 00:06:56,130 --> 00:07:00,490 S8: my book, you know, 60 to 80% of young people 127 00:07:00,770 --> 00:07:04,330 S8: who grew up in church abandon their faith when they 128 00:07:04,330 --> 00:07:07,650 S8: go to the university, usually in the first year. And 129 00:07:07,690 --> 00:07:11,690 S8: that's a that's an epidemic far worse than Covid 19. 130 00:07:12,850 --> 00:07:16,130 S8: But it's affecting our our young people in a pervasive way. 131 00:07:16,130 --> 00:07:19,370 S8: And so what I did, I knew that not many 132 00:07:19,370 --> 00:07:22,130 S8: people were going to read academic journal articles. So I 133 00:07:22,130 --> 00:07:25,890 S8: wanted to speak to a broader audience and specifically college 134 00:07:25,890 --> 00:07:29,250 S8: students and young college graduates. And I wanted to write 135 00:07:29,250 --> 00:07:32,650 S8: it in such a way that anybody that really didn't 136 00:07:32,650 --> 00:07:35,250 S8: know much of anything about Jesus could pick it up 137 00:07:35,570 --> 00:07:37,490 S8: and get a sense of the history and who the 138 00:07:37,490 --> 00:07:41,930 S8: political players were. Uh, what was the conspiracy? What were 139 00:07:41,930 --> 00:07:45,090 S8: the events that happened, how he died, and what it 140 00:07:45,090 --> 00:07:50,670 S8: means to us as Christians? and I, after I wrote it, 141 00:07:50,670 --> 00:07:52,470 S8: I kind of came to the conclusion, hey, you know, 142 00:07:52,510 --> 00:07:56,910 S8: I wrote this like, like a legal report. Um, I 143 00:07:56,910 --> 00:07:58,630 S8: wasn't thinking about it that way, but that's how it 144 00:07:58,630 --> 00:08:02,150 S8: came out. And I, you know, a certain amount of 145 00:08:02,150 --> 00:08:05,630 S8: my practice has been doing medical, legal work where I 146 00:08:05,630 --> 00:08:13,429 S8: had to define, uh, the mechanism of injury causation, impairment, prognosis, 147 00:08:13,430 --> 00:08:16,350 S8: those sorts of things. And so that's the way I 148 00:08:16,350 --> 00:08:20,110 S8: structured the book. When I first started studying the crucifixion, 149 00:08:20,110 --> 00:08:23,790 S8: I was perplexed because, you know, as I said, I 150 00:08:23,830 --> 00:08:26,310 S8: lectured for the medical student group and I collected everything 151 00:08:26,350 --> 00:08:30,590 S8: physicians had written. And I, I was astonished that there 152 00:08:30,590 --> 00:08:36,710 S8: wasn't a consensus among physician medical writers about how Jesus 153 00:08:36,750 --> 00:08:40,870 S8: actually died. Now, Jesus cause of death was crucifixion. But 154 00:08:40,870 --> 00:08:45,349 S8: in medical language, when we talk about the physiological mechanism 155 00:08:45,700 --> 00:08:48,819 S8: of result resulting in the end of life. We describe 156 00:08:48,820 --> 00:08:51,860 S8: that as the mechanism of death, and that's something that 157 00:08:52,940 --> 00:08:56,780 S8: there really wasn't a consensus about. And that just didn't 158 00:08:56,780 --> 00:08:59,700 S8: sit with me because, uh, in my work, I'm not 159 00:08:59,700 --> 00:09:03,660 S8: allowed that kind of luxury to equivocate. I had to define, uh, 160 00:09:04,420 --> 00:09:10,699 S8: what was happening. What, uh, what, uh, I can hear 161 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:12,820 S8: you in the background music. 162 00:09:14,260 --> 00:09:14,780 S1: Go ahead. 163 00:09:16,100 --> 00:09:18,820 S8: I had to define what was happening and that that 164 00:09:18,820 --> 00:09:21,780 S8: I thought could be done with a reasonable degree of 165 00:09:21,820 --> 00:09:24,819 S8: medical certainty, uh, with careful study. 166 00:09:25,940 --> 00:09:27,980 S1: Well, I know my friends by now know that this 167 00:09:27,980 --> 00:09:30,179 S1: is going to be a fascinating conversation. So let me 168 00:09:30,179 --> 00:09:32,219 S1: take a break and pick up the conversation right at 169 00:09:32,220 --> 00:09:34,860 S1: this point, doctor Joe Bergeron is with us. He's written 170 00:09:34,860 --> 00:09:38,100 S1: the book, The Crucifixion of Jesus A Medical Doctor examines 171 00:09:38,100 --> 00:09:48,610 S1: the death and resurrection of Christ more after this. Have 172 00:09:48,610 --> 00:09:51,170 S1: you ever felt abandoned by God like he's forgotten you 173 00:09:51,170 --> 00:09:54,210 S1: or simply stopped listening? That's why I've chosen God Hasn't 174 00:09:54,210 --> 00:09:56,730 S1: Forgotten you. As this month's truth tool through the often 175 00:09:56,730 --> 00:09:59,970 S1: overlooked story of Zechariah and Elizabeth. Author Robert Morgan shows 176 00:09:59,970 --> 00:10:02,850 S1: us that God always keeps his promises. As for your 177 00:10:02,850 --> 00:10:04,890 S1: copy of God Hasn't Forgotten You. When you give a 178 00:10:04,929 --> 00:10:08,570 S1: gift of any amount in the market, call 877. Janet 58. 179 00:10:08,610 --> 00:10:11,650 S1: That's 877. Janet 58. Or go to in the market 180 00:10:11,650 --> 00:10:13,370 S1: with Janet dot o r g. 181 00:10:19,450 --> 00:10:22,569 S3: Now the chief priests, the elders, and all the council 182 00:10:22,610 --> 00:10:26,969 S3: sought false testimony against Jesus to put him to death, 183 00:10:27,410 --> 00:10:31,850 S3: but found none. Even though many false witnesses came forward, 184 00:10:32,090 --> 00:10:37,530 S3: they found none. But at last two false witnesses came forward. 185 00:10:37,890 --> 00:10:41,490 S9: This fellow said, I'm able to destroy the temple of 186 00:10:41,490 --> 00:10:44,720 S9: God and to build it in three days. 187 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,319 S3: And the high priest arose and said to him. 188 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,400 S10: Do you answer? Nothing. What is it? These men testify 189 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:56,200 S10: against you? 190 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,240 S3: But Jesus kept silent, and the high priest answered and 191 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:01,040 S3: said to him. 192 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,920 S10: I put you under oath by the living God. Tell 193 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,160 S10: us if you are the Christ, the Son of God. 194 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:16,640 S5: It is as you said. Nevertheless I say to you. 195 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,640 S5: Hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at 196 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,360 S5: the right hand of the power, and coming on the 197 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:25,280 S5: clouds of heaven. 198 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:27,800 S3: Then the high priest tore his clothes. 199 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,320 S10: He has spoken. Blasphemy! What further need do we have 200 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:37,160 S10: of witnesses? Look, now you have heard his blasphemy. What 201 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:38,040 S10: do you think? 202 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:40,320 S9: He is deserving of death. 203 00:11:41,230 --> 00:11:43,750 S3: Then they spat in his face and beat him, and 204 00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:46,030 S3: others struck him with the palms of their hands. 205 00:11:47,510 --> 00:11:51,270 S11: Prophesy to us, Christ, who is the one who struck you? 206 00:11:51,830 --> 00:11:53,949 S1: Thinking again what it says in the book of Isaiah 207 00:11:53,990 --> 00:11:57,350 S1: about those beatings, for example, being beaten beyond recognition. We're 208 00:11:57,350 --> 00:11:59,670 S1: going to talk more about that as we continue our 209 00:11:59,670 --> 00:12:03,030 S1: conversation with Doctor Joe Bergeron, who's a practicing physician, but 210 00:12:03,030 --> 00:12:05,710 S1: in medicine for close to three decades. And he's written 211 00:12:05,710 --> 00:12:08,470 S1: the book called The Crucifixion of Jesus A Medical Doctor 212 00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:12,510 S1: examines the death and Resurrection of Christ. Doctor Bergeron, you 213 00:12:12,510 --> 00:12:16,309 S1: do this excellent job, as I noted earlier, of contextualizing this, 214 00:12:16,309 --> 00:12:19,350 S1: not just getting to the physiology of the cause of 215 00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:22,710 S1: death vis a vis crucifixion, but also you drop this 216 00:12:22,750 --> 00:12:25,630 S1: into a profoundly important history lesson. So let me pick 217 00:12:25,670 --> 00:12:27,790 S1: up on that clip that we just heard. You have 218 00:12:27,790 --> 00:12:29,949 S1: an entire section dedicated to what you refer to as 219 00:12:29,950 --> 00:12:32,189 S1: the politics of the day. And for a lot of people, 220 00:12:32,190 --> 00:12:34,470 S1: and I know we're speaking to people from Guam to 221 00:12:34,510 --> 00:12:36,910 S1: the Cayman Islands, some of whom know the story inside 222 00:12:36,910 --> 00:12:39,699 S1: out and upside down, others for whom they're not quite 223 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:44,340 S1: sure why. As believers, this Easter week is so important 224 00:12:44,340 --> 00:12:48,020 S1: to us and why Good Friday means so much to us, 225 00:12:48,020 --> 00:12:51,580 S1: followed by, of course, Resurrection Sunday. But the politics of 226 00:12:51,580 --> 00:12:54,700 S1: the day is unique because here's Jesus with these the 227 00:12:54,700 --> 00:12:58,060 S1: split venues for trials. Talk to us a little bit 228 00:12:58,059 --> 00:13:02,420 S1: about the Jewish trials, the Roman trials. Who who superseded whom, 229 00:13:02,420 --> 00:13:04,540 S1: and how did the two interface with one another? 230 00:13:04,940 --> 00:13:07,820 S8: Yes, and I didn't realize this myself until I started 231 00:13:07,820 --> 00:13:12,100 S8: studying it in depth. You know, Jesus was arrested in 232 00:13:12,140 --> 00:13:15,300 S8: the Garden of Gethsemane, and through the night he walked 233 00:13:15,340 --> 00:13:19,300 S8: about 2.2 miles, and he was first taken to the 234 00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:21,660 S8: house of Caiaphas and Anaphus, which would have been a 235 00:13:21,660 --> 00:13:26,060 S8: multifamily mansion, if you will, and he was placed on 236 00:13:26,059 --> 00:13:28,500 S8: trial there. Part of what you heard in the in 237 00:13:28,540 --> 00:13:33,660 S8: the clip previously, what is underappreciated is that Jesus was 238 00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:41,010 S8: beaten severely there. And the Jews had, um, uh, free, 239 00:13:41,050 --> 00:13:45,570 S8: free license for, uh, corporal punishment. They had lost capital, uh, 240 00:13:45,570 --> 00:13:49,290 S8: authority by the time of Jesus, but they could beat 241 00:13:49,610 --> 00:13:54,969 S8: a criminal, uh, as long as they were not a Roman, uh, with, uh, 242 00:13:55,010 --> 00:13:59,329 S8: 40 lashes. And so we have to presume that Jesus 243 00:13:59,330 --> 00:14:04,370 S8: was beaten severely there, uh, because he was guilty of 244 00:14:04,370 --> 00:14:09,449 S8: blasphemy in their mind, uh, something that was punishable by death. 245 00:14:09,690 --> 00:14:13,290 S8: So his beating would have been particularly severe before he 246 00:14:13,290 --> 00:14:21,050 S8: was ever taken to, uh, pilot. Then he's taken to Pilate. And, uh, pilot, 247 00:14:21,090 --> 00:14:25,930 S8: of course, recognizes that motivation of jealousy and seeks to, uh, 248 00:14:26,210 --> 00:14:31,650 S8: you know, absolve himself of the responsibility. Um, but, uh, 249 00:14:31,650 --> 00:14:35,570 S8: because it was a capital offense that they brought Jesus for, 250 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:41,360 S8: namely political insurrection. He had to examine Jesus. And, uh, 251 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,880 S8: you know, the the story is that the crowd pushed 252 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:50,560 S8: the agenda to, to bring Jesus to crucifixion. Now when 253 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:55,280 S8: Jesus when, when Pilate washed his hands, that was a 254 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:02,000 S8: pointing to a Hebrew law of unsolved murder that in 255 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,200 S8: Jewish times, if someone was killed and they found the corpse, 256 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,600 S8: they had to get the elders of the city and 257 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,520 S8: go to. They were in closest by. Go there and 258 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:17,200 S8: sacrifice a heifer and wash their hands, and say a 259 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,800 S8: declaration to say, the. The blood of this man is 260 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,040 S8: not on our hands. And that's exactly what Pilate did, 261 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,280 S8: because that was not a Roman, uh, sort of tradition, 262 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,560 S8: but it was very, uh, understood by the Jewish audience 263 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,390 S8: that Pilate was saying that he was not guilty of 264 00:15:36,430 --> 00:15:41,310 S8: killing the man. Rather, he was indicting the crowd for 265 00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:48,310 S8: crucifying Jesus. Then Jesus is turned over to Roman soldiers 266 00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:52,470 S8: who beat him severely. You know, they they put a 267 00:15:52,830 --> 00:15:57,030 S8: crown of thorns on his head. Um, that may have 268 00:15:57,030 --> 00:16:00,190 S8: been a reference to what was called an obsidian crown. 269 00:16:00,390 --> 00:16:03,790 S8: It was the most prized crown in the Roman culture. 270 00:16:04,070 --> 00:16:07,590 S8: That would be given to a military commander after a 271 00:16:07,630 --> 00:16:11,950 S8: heroic victory when all seemed lost. They would take shrubs 272 00:16:11,950 --> 00:16:15,150 S8: from the area they had conquered, form a crown and 273 00:16:15,150 --> 00:16:19,510 S8: place it on the victor's head. And it was only 274 00:16:19,510 --> 00:16:22,670 S8: by unanimous vote of the army. So it was most 275 00:16:22,670 --> 00:16:26,750 S8: prized thing. A Roman soldier could obtain. And so, in 276 00:16:26,750 --> 00:16:28,550 S8: my view, I think that's what they were doing. They 277 00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:31,790 S8: were mocking that obsidian crown. They put a scepter in 278 00:16:31,790 --> 00:16:35,140 S8: his hand, and then they struck him with it a 279 00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:40,500 S8: number of times. Now Roman scourging was different from the 280 00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:46,260 S8: Jewish beating, because their scourging was unlimited. They would beat 281 00:16:46,260 --> 00:16:51,740 S8: the condemned prisoner with a whip called a flagellum, which 282 00:16:51,740 --> 00:16:54,740 S8: had leather strips with dumbbell pieces of lead sewn into 283 00:16:54,740 --> 00:16:58,180 S8: the end of it. There would be more than one person, 284 00:16:58,220 --> 00:17:02,500 S8: probably two, beating from both sides. This would cause lacerations 285 00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:08,620 S8: on the body from head to toe. And Eusebius, the historian, 286 00:17:08,820 --> 00:17:13,500 S8: said that people watching this beating would be astonished, seeing 287 00:17:13,700 --> 00:17:18,540 S8: the lacerations down to the blood vessels, even being able 288 00:17:18,540 --> 00:17:20,660 S8: to see the internal organs. 289 00:17:21,380 --> 00:17:24,100 S1: Oh my word. And again, as you just pointed out, 290 00:17:24,100 --> 00:17:26,660 S1: this is the second beating for Jesus in the story. 291 00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:30,540 S1: He's already taken one by the Jewish leadership. Let me 292 00:17:30,570 --> 00:17:32,170 S1: take a break and come right back. The book is 293 00:17:32,170 --> 00:17:35,810 S1: called The Crucifixion of Jesus. A Medical doctor examines the 294 00:17:35,810 --> 00:17:38,649 S1: death and resurrection of Christ back after this. 295 00:17:55,330 --> 00:17:57,530 S3: Now Jesus stood before the governor. 296 00:17:58,609 --> 00:18:01,090 S12: Are you the King of the Jews? 297 00:18:02,490 --> 00:18:03,609 S5: It is as you say. 298 00:18:04,369 --> 00:18:06,810 S3: And while he was being accused by the chief priests 299 00:18:06,810 --> 00:18:09,490 S3: and elders, he answered nothing. 300 00:18:09,530 --> 00:18:13,889 S12: Do you not hear how many things they testify against you? 301 00:18:14,369 --> 00:18:16,770 S3: But he answered him not one word, so that the 302 00:18:16,770 --> 00:18:20,450 S3: governor marveled greatly. Now at the feast the governor was 303 00:18:20,450 --> 00:18:24,889 S3: accustomed to releasing to the multitude one prisoner whom they wished. 304 00:18:25,490 --> 00:18:30,960 S3: And at that time they had a notorious prisoner called Barabbas. Therefore, 305 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,200 S3: when they had gathered together, Pilate said to them. 306 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,720 S12: Whom do you want me to release to you, Barabbas, 307 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,720 S12: or Jesus, who is called Christ? 308 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,200 S3: For he knew that they had handed him over because 309 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,680 S3: of envy. While he was sitting on the judgment seat, 310 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,440 S3: his wife sent to him. 311 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,639 S13: Have nothing to do with that just man, for I 312 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,959 S13: have suffered many things today in a dream because of him. 313 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,080 S3: But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that 314 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,360 S3: they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. 315 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,040 S12: Which of the two do you want me to release 316 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:14,560 S12: to you. 317 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:16,720 S13: Barabbas? 318 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,440 S12: What then shall I do with Jesus, who is called Christ? 319 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,600 S14: Let him be crucified. 320 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,800 S12: Why? What evil has he done? 321 00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:30,030 S3: But they cried out all the more. 322 00:19:33,430 --> 00:19:34,790 S14: Let him be crucified. 323 00:19:34,830 --> 00:19:37,270 S3: When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, 324 00:19:37,270 --> 00:19:40,230 S3: but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water 325 00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:42,670 S3: and washed his hands before the multitude. 326 00:19:43,310 --> 00:19:47,590 S12: I am innocent of the blood of this just person. 327 00:19:48,950 --> 00:19:50,430 S12: You see to it. 328 00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:52,790 S3: And all the people answered. 329 00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:54,350 S9: His blood, be on. 330 00:19:54,350 --> 00:19:56,990 S14: Us. Be on us and on our children. 331 00:19:59,790 --> 00:20:03,629 S1: We're talking about the crucifixion of Jesus with Doctor Joe Bergeron, 332 00:20:03,630 --> 00:20:06,669 S1: who is a practicing physician, but he's also interested in 333 00:20:06,670 --> 00:20:09,230 S1: the world of apologetics. And so he co-authored an article 334 00:20:09,230 --> 00:20:13,350 S1: with Doctor Gary Habermas for the Irish Theological Quarterly. Taking 335 00:20:13,350 --> 00:20:15,990 S1: a look at what's known as the hallucination hypothesis. If 336 00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:18,110 S1: time allows. I want to get into that a little bit. 337 00:20:18,109 --> 00:20:20,750 S1: But he also authored a peer reviewed medical journal article 338 00:20:20,790 --> 00:20:23,469 S1: on Jesus's cause of death for the Journal of Forensic 339 00:20:23,470 --> 00:20:26,580 S1: and Legal Medicine. You can read much of this in 340 00:20:26,580 --> 00:20:29,260 S1: his new book, The Crucifixion of Jesus A Medical Doctor 341 00:20:29,260 --> 00:20:32,820 S1: examines the death and resurrection of Christ. Doctor Bergeron, let 342 00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:34,780 S1: me go to the fact that you pointed out how 343 00:20:34,780 --> 00:20:38,460 S1: severe the bleeding the beating was under the Jewish authorities. Again, 344 00:20:38,460 --> 00:20:40,860 S1: they were they did not have the right of capital punishment, 345 00:20:40,859 --> 00:20:43,220 S1: meaning they could not take a life. They couldn't beat 346 00:20:43,260 --> 00:20:45,620 S1: a Roman citizen. So they had some restraints on what 347 00:20:45,619 --> 00:20:49,620 S1: they could do so they could beat him severely. And 348 00:20:49,619 --> 00:20:52,139 S1: they did. And then you just talked about the Roman scourging, 349 00:20:52,140 --> 00:20:57,699 S1: which is this weapon of mutilation, exposing even internal organs. 350 00:20:58,020 --> 00:21:00,700 S1: It raises an interesting question from a medical vantage point, 351 00:21:00,700 --> 00:21:04,100 S1: which is after those two severe beatings, you wonder how 352 00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:06,980 S1: Jesus had the strength then to take his cross and 353 00:21:06,980 --> 00:21:08,820 S1: to walk to Calvary. We know he didn't do it 354 00:21:08,820 --> 00:21:12,220 S1: the whole way. This is where we have the character 355 00:21:12,220 --> 00:21:14,979 S1: who steps in Simeon and and Simon and carries the 356 00:21:14,980 --> 00:21:17,580 S1: part of the cross. Before I get to that, just 357 00:21:17,580 --> 00:21:19,939 S1: from a medical vantage point, how do you think he 358 00:21:19,940 --> 00:21:22,980 S1: was able to even stand and walk even a short 359 00:21:22,980 --> 00:21:24,770 S1: distance with part of the cross. 360 00:21:24,810 --> 00:21:27,210 S8: That's really hard to say because he was beaten near 361 00:21:27,210 --> 00:21:32,969 S8: to death, and that the Roman philosopher Seneca said that 362 00:21:33,450 --> 00:21:37,450 S8: people would have many causes or excuses to die prior 363 00:21:37,850 --> 00:21:40,649 S8: to mounting the cross. That was particularly true with the 364 00:21:40,650 --> 00:21:44,530 S8: case of Jesus. And again, the Roman soldiers were particularly 365 00:21:44,530 --> 00:21:50,169 S8: harsh with him because his charge was political insurrection, and 366 00:21:50,170 --> 00:21:54,690 S8: the Romans had anti-Semitic tendencies anyway. But to say that 367 00:21:54,690 --> 00:21:57,210 S8: you're the king of that area in defiance of seizure, 368 00:21:57,210 --> 00:22:00,650 S8: would have heightened their ire and made the beating all 369 00:22:00,650 --> 00:22:05,890 S8: the more harsh. The process of crucifixion would be that 370 00:22:05,890 --> 00:22:09,330 S8: the condemned criminal would be delivered to a crucifixion team. 371 00:22:09,530 --> 00:22:13,010 S8: The team would be led by the centurion and at 372 00:22:13,050 --> 00:22:19,010 S8: least four soldiers and the. They would complete the scourging. 373 00:22:19,250 --> 00:22:25,080 S8: Then they would place the horizontal section of the cross 374 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:30,000 S8: called the Patibulum on the back of the condemned, along 375 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,240 S8: with a plaque called the Titulus Crucis, which named the 376 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,400 S8: capital crimes for which they were being executed. With Jesus 377 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,800 S8: it said, The King of the Jews. Now the vertical 378 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,640 S8: section of the cross was permanently placed in the ground. 379 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,200 S8: Jesus was executed on what's called a tau cross or 380 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:54,359 S8: crux Commissa and the soldiers would march the condemned to 381 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:59,760 S8: the naked, generally to the crucifixion site. Fasten the arms 382 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:08,879 S8: to the patibulum the. Horizontal section and then fasten the 383 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,359 S8: hands with nails. Now if you take your ring finger 384 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,119 S8: and bend it back as far as you can to 385 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,480 S8: touch the bottom of the wrist crease that. If you 386 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,480 S8: drive a nail through that spot, it will go through 387 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,220 S8: the wrist bones without fracturing them, and place a stable 388 00:23:23,220 --> 00:23:26,899 S8: fixation of the arm against the wood. If you were 389 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:29,500 S8: to drive a nail inside to the center of the palm, 390 00:23:29,660 --> 00:23:34,460 S8: that would pull out with about £100 of extraction force. 391 00:23:34,940 --> 00:23:38,619 S8: And so it would have been done through the wrist bones, 392 00:23:38,660 --> 00:23:44,460 S8: or possibly just proximal or just above the wrist. And 393 00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:47,740 S8: that's there's a quirky medical mind that Doctor Pierre Barbet 394 00:23:47,940 --> 00:23:53,020 S8: took a dozen amputated hands and repeated that experiment. They 395 00:23:53,020 --> 00:23:55,139 S8: all came out the same. The nail went through the 396 00:23:55,140 --> 00:23:59,260 S8: wrist bones without fracturing them. Uh, it did macerate the 397 00:23:59,260 --> 00:24:01,300 S8: nerves that were passing through that area, which would be 398 00:24:01,300 --> 00:24:06,419 S8: extraordinarily painful. Um, but, uh, but that's how the nails 399 00:24:06,420 --> 00:24:10,619 S8: were placed. Uh, the condemned would then be lifted by 400 00:24:10,619 --> 00:24:14,020 S8: the soldiers and placed on the vertical section of the 401 00:24:14,020 --> 00:24:16,500 S8: cross with a mortise and tenon coupling. 402 00:24:17,180 --> 00:24:19,250 S1: Wow. Let me pick it up exactly at that point. 403 00:24:19,250 --> 00:24:21,770 S1: By the way, in the book, you have actually photos 404 00:24:21,770 --> 00:24:24,570 S1: of some of the X-rays that Pierre Barbet did with 405 00:24:24,570 --> 00:24:27,810 S1: his experiments on hands and where a nail could go 406 00:24:27,850 --> 00:24:31,290 S1: without breaking any bones, which is of course, significant because 407 00:24:31,290 --> 00:24:34,650 S1: Scripture tells us no bones were broken. Absolutely fascinating book. 408 00:24:34,650 --> 00:24:50,010 S1: It's called The Crucifixion of Jesus back after this. Friends, 409 00:24:50,010 --> 00:24:51,570 S1: this is Janet Partial, and I want to take a 410 00:24:51,570 --> 00:24:54,490 S1: moment to remind you that today's program is prerecorded so 411 00:24:54,490 --> 00:24:56,770 S1: our phone lines aren't open, but I sure do appreciate 412 00:24:56,770 --> 00:24:58,970 S1: your spending the hour with us. And thanks so much 413 00:24:58,970 --> 00:25:06,609 S1: and enjoy the rest of the program. Anyone can read 414 00:25:06,609 --> 00:25:08,570 S1: the news every day on In the market. We're committed 415 00:25:08,570 --> 00:25:10,970 S1: to telling the news as seen through the lens of Scripture. 416 00:25:11,170 --> 00:25:13,409 S1: As Christians, we must be informed about what's going on 417 00:25:13,410 --> 00:25:16,169 S1: in the world and respond appropriately. When you become a 418 00:25:16,170 --> 00:25:18,880 S1: partial partner, you ensure that we continue here on your station, 419 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,359 S1: equipping the church to discuss current events. Using the Bible 420 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,639 S1: as our solid foundation. Why not become a partial partner today? 421 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,879 S1: Call 877 Janet 58 or go online to In the 422 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:28,959 S1: Market with Janet Parshall. 423 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,400 S3: Now, as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, 424 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,879 S3: Simon by name him they compelled to bear his cross. 425 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,040 S3: And when they had come to a place called Golgotha, 426 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,240 S3: that is to say, place of a skull. They gave 427 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,200 S3: him sour wine mingled with gall to drink. But when 428 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:07,400 S3: he had tasted it, he would not drink. Then they 429 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,200 S3: crucified him and divided his garments, casting lots that it 430 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,240 S3: might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet. 431 00:26:16,270 --> 00:26:20,510 S15: They divided my garments among them. And for my clothing 432 00:26:21,070 --> 00:26:22,350 S15: they cast lots. 433 00:26:22,590 --> 00:26:25,470 S3: Sitting down they kept watch over him. There. And they 434 00:26:25,470 --> 00:26:29,030 S3: put up over his head the accusation written against him. 435 00:26:29,230 --> 00:26:32,910 S3: This is Jesus, the King of the Jews. Then two 436 00:26:32,910 --> 00:26:36,070 S3: robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and 437 00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:40,590 S3: another on the left. And those who passed by blasphemed him, 438 00:26:40,590 --> 00:26:41,909 S3: wagging their heads. 439 00:26:42,190 --> 00:26:45,790 S16: You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, 440 00:26:45,790 --> 00:26:47,430 S16: save yourself. 441 00:26:47,670 --> 00:26:50,790 S17: If you are the Son of God, come down from 442 00:26:50,790 --> 00:26:51,590 S17: the cross. 443 00:26:51,790 --> 00:26:56,629 S3: Likewise, the chief priests, also mocking with the scribes and elders, 444 00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:57,990 S3: said he. 445 00:26:58,030 --> 00:26:58,869 S12: Saved others. 446 00:26:59,350 --> 00:26:59,949 S3: Himself. 447 00:26:59,950 --> 00:27:01,150 S12: He cannot save. 448 00:27:01,590 --> 00:27:04,430 S9: If he is the King of Israel, let him now 449 00:27:04,430 --> 00:27:07,670 S9: come down from the cross, and we will believe him. 450 00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:09,110 S10: He trusted. 451 00:27:09,109 --> 00:27:11,590 S18: In God. Let him deliver him now, if he will 452 00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:16,220 S18: have him. For he said, I am the Son of God. 453 00:27:17,380 --> 00:27:20,740 S3: Even the robbers who were crucified with him reviled him 454 00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:26,100 S3: with the same thing. Now from the sixth hour until 455 00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:30,619 S3: the ninth hour, there was darkness over all the land. 456 00:27:35,460 --> 00:27:40,379 S3: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a 457 00:27:40,380 --> 00:27:41,219 S3: loud voice. 458 00:27:42,340 --> 00:27:48,580 S5: Hello, Lama Sabachthani. 459 00:27:49,420 --> 00:27:53,619 S3: That is my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? 460 00:27:55,060 --> 00:27:57,620 S3: Some of those who stood there when they heard that said. 461 00:27:58,020 --> 00:28:00,020 S19: This man is calling for Elijah. 462 00:28:00,540 --> 00:28:03,420 S3: Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled 463 00:28:03,420 --> 00:28:05,660 S3: it with sour wine, and put it on a reed 464 00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:07,940 S3: and offered it to him to drink. 465 00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:11,660 S17: Let him alone. Let us see if Elijah will come 466 00:28:11,660 --> 00:28:12,609 S17: to save him. 467 00:28:13,450 --> 00:28:20,050 S3: And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice. And 468 00:28:20,050 --> 00:28:21,330 S3: yielded up his spirit. 469 00:28:25,890 --> 00:28:28,810 S1: And that's what we are discussing, the crucifixion of Jesus. 470 00:28:28,810 --> 00:28:31,330 S1: We are talking with Doctor Joe Bergeron, who is offering 471 00:28:31,330 --> 00:28:34,690 S1: us a medical doctor's perspective on the death and resurrection 472 00:28:34,690 --> 00:28:37,770 S1: of Jesus. If you've missed the first half, I'm glad 473 00:28:37,770 --> 00:28:39,810 S1: to tell you that you can download the podcast so 474 00:28:39,810 --> 00:28:42,010 S1: you can hear everything that has been said up to 475 00:28:42,010 --> 00:28:44,610 S1: this point. Simply go to the website in the market 476 00:28:44,610 --> 00:28:48,730 S1: with Janet Parshall. Left hand side, two words past programs, 477 00:28:48,730 --> 00:28:51,850 S1: clicking on download the full hour and listen to this 478 00:28:51,850 --> 00:28:54,810 S1: program again and again and share it with someone who's 479 00:28:54,810 --> 00:28:57,650 S1: a seeker or a skeptic, or a cynic, or doesn't 480 00:28:57,650 --> 00:29:00,770 S1: believe that this can be historically substantiated or does not 481 00:29:00,770 --> 00:29:05,530 S1: understand what Jesus did for us. That's what this is 482 00:29:05,530 --> 00:29:08,090 S1: all about. So, Doctor Bergeron, let me go to the 483 00:29:08,090 --> 00:29:10,520 S1: crucifixion itself. You pointed out that you thought that this 484 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,680 S1: was more of a tau cross, which means more of 485 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,120 S1: a T than the typical cross figure that we think about. 486 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,600 S1: But you spend time talking about the feet, what happens 487 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,040 S1: in a crucifixion, and you have some archaeological bones that 488 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,640 S1: also discuss this as well. 489 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,680 S8: Yes, that's very interesting because, you know, the the Romans 490 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,280 S8: used crucifixion as their it was called the summa aka 491 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:40,760 S8: the Supreme punishment. And they used it for six centuries. Um, Josephus, 492 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,200 S8: who was an eyewitness of the war, the Roman war 493 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:50,040 S8: with the Jews from 1866 through 70, said that, um, 494 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,360 S8: up to 500 people at a time were crucified. So 495 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,200 S8: that's a lot of people. And during the Spartacus Rebellion 496 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:04,040 S8: in 70 BC, the Romans crucified 6000 people on the 497 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:10,030 S8: Appian Appian Road, the Roman highway, 20km from Capua to Rome. 498 00:30:10,270 --> 00:30:13,350 S8: So they had an intense belief in capital punishment as 499 00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:16,790 S8: a deterrent. And it was used, you know, constantly over 500 00:30:16,790 --> 00:30:19,670 S8: that time. They would have crucified thousands, maybe hundreds of 501 00:30:19,670 --> 00:30:23,310 S8: thousands of people. But there are only two archaeological finds. 502 00:30:24,190 --> 00:30:28,950 S8: So and it's known that the reason for that is 503 00:30:28,950 --> 00:30:31,229 S8: that the victim would be left on the cross to 504 00:30:31,270 --> 00:30:36,870 S8: be eaten by scavenging animals. Uh, the victim could the 505 00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:39,790 S8: the friends and family could request the remains of the 506 00:30:39,790 --> 00:30:44,870 S8: victim for burial. And there have been two archaeological finds. 507 00:30:44,870 --> 00:30:48,190 S8: One was in Jerusalem, which was dated to the early 508 00:30:48,190 --> 00:30:52,470 S8: part of the first century. Uh, and the second one 509 00:30:52,830 --> 00:30:57,910 S8: was found in northern Italy and just reported in 2018. 510 00:30:58,270 --> 00:31:02,710 S8: Both of those finds show the nail going through the heel. 511 00:31:02,750 --> 00:31:07,100 S8: The calcaneus bone. And so at least based on that 512 00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:13,140 S8: archaeological evidence, we believe it seems likely that that was 513 00:31:13,140 --> 00:31:15,740 S8: how they did it. And and if you think about it, 514 00:31:15,780 --> 00:31:18,180 S8: it would maybe be easier to drive a nail through 515 00:31:18,180 --> 00:31:20,740 S8: the heel than through the top of a foot. Uh, 516 00:31:20,740 --> 00:31:26,100 S8: when the, the victim is protesting. And incidentally, the idea 517 00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:28,060 S8: that it was nailed, the feet were nailed to the 518 00:31:28,060 --> 00:31:31,820 S8: front of the cross in our artistic imagination. There's no, 519 00:31:32,060 --> 00:31:36,180 S8: no record to account for that. Um, and then what 520 00:31:36,180 --> 00:31:41,900 S8: I think is, is doubly fascinating is what's called the protoevangelium, 521 00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:45,860 S8: which is in Genesis 315, where God speaks to Satan, 522 00:31:45,860 --> 00:31:48,660 S8: he speaks to the serpent, and he says, the offspring 523 00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:51,580 S8: of the woman is going to crush your head and 524 00:31:51,620 --> 00:31:56,020 S8: you're going to bruise his heel. So I think that 525 00:31:56,340 --> 00:31:59,460 S8: that was probably the way it was done. The find 526 00:31:59,460 --> 00:32:03,540 S8: in Jerusalem, the the heels were in a configuration that 527 00:32:03,540 --> 00:32:06,570 S8: the legs would have been, uh, parallel rotated to the 528 00:32:06,570 --> 00:32:10,370 S8: right and the nail driven through each of the calcaneus 529 00:32:10,370 --> 00:32:13,050 S8: bones with a a wood between the head of the 530 00:32:13,050 --> 00:32:16,770 S8: nail and the bone. The reason that we know that 531 00:32:16,770 --> 00:32:20,330 S8: is because one of the nails got bent and it couldn't, 532 00:32:20,370 --> 00:32:25,610 S8: couldn't be extracted from the bone and reused. Um, and 533 00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:28,090 S8: so what they had to do was amputate the foot 534 00:32:28,290 --> 00:32:31,330 S8: and then pry the nail off, uh, that way to 535 00:32:31,370 --> 00:32:33,530 S8: get it off the cross and to remove the body. 536 00:32:33,850 --> 00:32:36,570 S1: So in this, and by the way, you quote Seneca 537 00:32:36,570 --> 00:32:40,650 S1: as saying that there were all kinds of modalities of crucifixion, 538 00:32:40,650 --> 00:32:44,050 S1: sometimes upside down and various different ways, which I thought 539 00:32:44,050 --> 00:32:48,450 S1: was fascinating in and of itself. But now, especially from 540 00:32:48,450 --> 00:32:51,290 S1: your vantage point as a physician, so the cause of death, 541 00:32:51,610 --> 00:32:53,930 S1: first of all, Jesus cries out, talk to me about 542 00:32:53,930 --> 00:32:57,330 S1: dehydration on the cross. This, it seems to me, is 543 00:32:57,330 --> 00:33:00,450 S1: completely understandable. Not only is there a fulfillment of Scripture 544 00:33:00,450 --> 00:33:02,850 S1: on this, but why would this have been something that 545 00:33:02,850 --> 00:33:06,400 S1: you would have witnessed in a crucifixion, that you're talking 546 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,880 S1: about being exposed to the elements. So dehydration, it seems 547 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,200 S1: to me, would be a natural response to this. 548 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:16,000 S8: The most plausible explanation for Jesus death is traumatic hemorrhagic shock. 549 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,680 S8: You'd asked me previously about why he couldn't walk to 550 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,240 S8: the crucifixion site. That is because it looks like he 551 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,440 S8: was starting to progress into shock at that time, and 552 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,720 S8: the initial symptoms of shock would be being lightheaded, dizzy, palpitations, 553 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,560 S8: feeling clammy, weak, those sorts of things. And that, uh, 554 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,520 S8: precluded him from being able to walk to the crucifixion site. 555 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,680 S8: But Jesus had extensive beating and blood loss. He would 556 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:50,160 S8: have been deprived of fluids from the arrest onward and 557 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,720 S8: the thirst that occurs with shock. The shock is, is, uh, 558 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:02,830 S8: diminished blood flow to tissues and vital organs. Um, and 559 00:34:02,830 --> 00:34:05,790 S8: in Jesus case, the reason for that would be blood loss. 560 00:34:06,150 --> 00:34:10,950 S8: When that occurs, the brain itself is stimulated by two mechanisms. 561 00:34:10,950 --> 00:34:14,469 S8: There are pressure sensors and arteries called baroreceptors that would 562 00:34:14,469 --> 00:34:17,630 S8: stimulate the area of the brain that's responsible for thirst. 563 00:34:17,870 --> 00:34:22,350 S8: And there's a mechanism of the, uh, in the kidneys 564 00:34:22,350 --> 00:34:25,910 S8: that would do the same thing. The angiotensin system would 565 00:34:25,910 --> 00:34:29,790 S8: also stimulate the brain. So you have two mechanisms that 566 00:34:29,790 --> 00:34:32,710 S8: are directly stimulating the brain. That's different than being thirsty 567 00:34:32,750 --> 00:34:35,509 S8: like you. And I get this is something that, that 568 00:34:35,550 --> 00:34:39,790 S8: the brain is being stimulated in a significant way to 569 00:34:39,830 --> 00:34:42,549 S8: the point that people that are succumbing to shock, they 570 00:34:42,550 --> 00:34:45,109 S8: would have such a maddening type of thirst that they 571 00:34:45,110 --> 00:34:49,029 S8: would have hallucinations and of water and those types of things. 572 00:34:49,350 --> 00:34:52,589 S8: So when Jesus said, I thirst, he was it was 573 00:34:52,590 --> 00:34:53,790 S8: probably a scream. 574 00:34:54,270 --> 00:34:56,950 S1: Now, the certainty of death. You read about this as well, 575 00:34:56,950 --> 00:34:59,910 S1: and you point out that the discipline within the Roman 576 00:34:59,980 --> 00:35:03,420 S1: legions was brutal, if not inhumane. And that if you 577 00:35:03,460 --> 00:35:06,180 S1: nodded off, if you were assigned to watch for crucifixion, 578 00:35:06,180 --> 00:35:09,060 S1: if you nodded off or fell asleep, you as the soldier, 579 00:35:09,060 --> 00:35:12,379 S1: could have been beaten to death. So it was imperative 580 00:35:12,380 --> 00:35:14,820 S1: that the task be completed. Talk to me about this. 581 00:35:15,460 --> 00:35:17,419 S8: Yes, when we have a hint from that in acts 582 00:35:17,420 --> 00:35:19,980 S8: chapter 15, where the Philippian jailer was going to fall 583 00:35:19,980 --> 00:35:22,900 S8: on his sword when he thought Paul and Silas had 584 00:35:22,940 --> 00:35:26,819 S8: had escaped. But for a crucifixion team to allow a 585 00:35:26,860 --> 00:35:31,100 S8: capital criminal to escape crucifixion would have meant their death. 586 00:35:31,660 --> 00:35:35,259 S8: And so they were not going to release the body. 587 00:35:35,260 --> 00:35:37,299 S8: And again, they would stay. The bodies would be left 588 00:35:37,300 --> 00:35:40,259 S8: on the cross now. You know, in the Passover, they 589 00:35:40,260 --> 00:35:43,379 S8: wanted the bodies to be taken down. And as I said, 590 00:35:43,380 --> 00:35:46,700 S8: the body could be requested, but their their, uh, is 591 00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:52,459 S8: literary evidence to suggest that a body would not be released, uh, 592 00:35:52,460 --> 00:35:57,140 S8: unless a fatal stab wound was given to the victim 593 00:35:57,460 --> 00:36:03,569 S8: and death verified for the authorities. Uh, Pilate himself was 594 00:36:03,570 --> 00:36:07,489 S8: surprised that Jesus had died so rapidly. Um, but he 595 00:36:07,489 --> 00:36:10,009 S8: did release the body to Joseph of Arimathea. 596 00:36:10,930 --> 00:36:12,690 S1: And that's exactly where I want to pick this up 597 00:36:12,690 --> 00:36:15,250 S1: when we come back. The book is called The Crucifixion 598 00:36:15,250 --> 00:36:19,050 S1: of Jesus. A Medical Doctor examines the death and resurrection 599 00:36:19,050 --> 00:36:23,330 S1: of Jesus. It's an absolutely fascinating read. It's a sober 600 00:36:23,330 --> 00:36:26,969 S1: read when you realize that all by his stripes we 601 00:36:26,969 --> 00:36:30,250 S1: are healed. And that puts that into a much deeper perspective. 602 00:36:30,410 --> 00:36:32,010 S1: Let's take a break back after this. 603 00:36:55,330 --> 00:36:57,640 S3: Now, after the Sabbath, as the first day of the 604 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,400 S3: week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary 605 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:09,480 S3: came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a 606 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,800 S3: great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, 607 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,520 S3: and came and rolled back the stone from the door 608 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,879 S3: and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and 609 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,880 S3: his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook 610 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,680 S3: for fear of him, and became like dead men. But 611 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,680 S3: the angel answered and said to the women. 612 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,319 S20: Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek 613 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,759 S20: Jesus who was crucified. He is not here, for he 614 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:45,200 S20: is risen, as he said, come, see the place where 615 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,600 S20: the Lord lay, and go quickly and tell his disciples 616 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,799 S20: that he is risen from the dead. And indeed he 617 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:58,060 S20: is going before you into Galilee. There you will see him. Behold, 618 00:37:58,739 --> 00:37:59,620 S20: I have told. 619 00:37:59,620 --> 00:37:59,900 S7: You. 620 00:38:02,580 --> 00:38:04,820 S3: So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear 621 00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:08,380 S3: and great joy, and ran to bring his disciples word. 622 00:38:08,820 --> 00:38:12,779 S3: And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus 623 00:38:12,780 --> 00:38:13,420 S3: met them. 624 00:38:13,940 --> 00:38:14,980 S5: Rejoice! 625 00:38:15,180 --> 00:38:18,899 S3: So they came and held him by the feet and 626 00:38:18,900 --> 00:38:19,780 S3: worshipped him. 627 00:38:19,780 --> 00:38:25,180 S5: Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brethren to 628 00:38:25,219 --> 00:38:29,500 S5: go to Galilee, and there they will see me. 629 00:38:30,180 --> 00:38:33,100 S3: Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard 630 00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:36,100 S3: came into the city and reported to the chief priests 631 00:38:36,140 --> 00:38:40,380 S3: all the things that had happened. When they had assembled 632 00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:43,660 S3: with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large 633 00:38:43,660 --> 00:38:45,459 S3: sum of money to the soldiers. 634 00:38:45,820 --> 00:38:48,660 S9: Tell them, his disciples came at night and stole him 635 00:38:48,660 --> 00:38:51,500 S9: away while we slept. And if this comes to the 636 00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:55,650 S9: governor's ears, we will appease him and make you secure. 637 00:38:56,010 --> 00:38:58,970 S3: So they took the money and did as they were instructed. 638 00:39:00,570 --> 00:39:03,570 S3: And this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until 639 00:39:03,570 --> 00:39:15,370 S3: this day. Then the 11 disciples went away into Galilee, 640 00:39:15,690 --> 00:39:20,770 S3: to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When 641 00:39:20,770 --> 00:39:25,009 S3: they saw him, they worshiped him. But some doubted, and 642 00:39:25,010 --> 00:39:27,370 S3: Jesus came and spoke to them. 643 00:39:28,410 --> 00:39:32,330 S5: All authority has been given to me in heaven and 644 00:39:32,370 --> 00:39:37,890 S5: on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, 645 00:39:38,650 --> 00:39:41,930 S5: baptizing them in the name of the father, and of 646 00:39:41,930 --> 00:39:46,529 S5: the son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to 647 00:39:46,570 --> 00:39:52,280 S5: observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, 648 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,759 S5: I am with you always, even to the end of 649 00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:57,440 S5: the age. 650 00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:58,840 S3: Amen. 651 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,040 S1: That is the best news you will hear all day long. 652 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,719 S1: We are talking with Doctor Joe Bergeron, who's a practicing physician, 653 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,839 S1: and he has a great interest into the crucifixion of 654 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:15,320 S1: Jesus Christ. Apologetics, apologetics generally, but in particular, this topic 655 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,920 S1: of the crucifixion of Jesus. He's written a book to 656 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,440 S1: that end. It is called The Crucifixion of Jesus. A 657 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,640 S1: Medical doctor examines the death and resurrection of Christ. And 658 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,839 S1: for the record, there is oh so much more in 659 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,319 S1: this book than I can possibly cover. So I hope 660 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,760 S1: I'm piquing your curiosity so that you'll want to pursue 661 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,480 S1: and get a copy yourself. So, Doctor Bergeron, let me 662 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,040 S1: go back because I do want to get into the 663 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,719 S1: hallucination hypothesis right now. But if you look at the 664 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,880 S1: cause of death, you say that it is predominantly understood 665 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,040 S1: that it would not have been suffocation difficult, as you 666 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,950 S1: point out, to have a conversation with thieves when you're suffocating, 667 00:40:51,950 --> 00:40:54,910 S1: but rather it would be trauma that would have been 668 00:40:54,910 --> 00:40:57,910 S1: the result of this cardiac and respiratory arrest due to 669 00:40:57,950 --> 00:41:01,870 S1: trauma shock. All of this as a result of the crucifixion. 670 00:41:01,870 --> 00:41:05,469 S1: That's significant because doesn't that begin to auger out if 671 00:41:05,469 --> 00:41:09,030 S1: you understand the certainty of death? The cause of death, 672 00:41:09,190 --> 00:41:11,910 S1: doesn't that speak into the vacuous nature of some of 673 00:41:11,910 --> 00:41:16,189 S1: these theories, the swoon theory or the hallucination hypothesis? Talk 674 00:41:16,190 --> 00:41:17,070 S1: to me about this. 675 00:41:17,430 --> 00:41:20,870 S8: Well, the swoon theory is simply not possible based on 676 00:41:20,870 --> 00:41:24,390 S8: the things we've already discussed in terms of Roman military authority. 677 00:41:25,989 --> 00:41:30,350 S8: And people have asked me, has anyone ever survived crucifixion? 678 00:41:30,590 --> 00:41:34,750 S8: And the answer is, there was one person and Josephus, 679 00:41:34,750 --> 00:41:37,590 S8: who was a Jewish historian and defected and became a 680 00:41:37,590 --> 00:41:40,470 S8: Roman citizen. And as I said, he was an eyewitness 681 00:41:40,469 --> 00:41:45,230 S8: of the Roman War, uh, between 66 and 74 A.D. 682 00:41:45,670 --> 00:41:50,180 S8: he saw three of his friends being crucified and he 683 00:41:50,219 --> 00:41:53,420 S8: quickly was able to get a stay of execution for 684 00:41:53,420 --> 00:41:57,020 S8: his friends. They were taken down. Two of them died anyway, 685 00:41:57,020 --> 00:42:00,580 S8: and one of them, uh, nursed back to health. And 686 00:42:01,260 --> 00:42:03,980 S8: that's the only. And I've studied everything I can find. 687 00:42:04,020 --> 00:42:06,580 S8: That's the only record of anyone ever surviving. And for 688 00:42:06,580 --> 00:42:08,980 S8: the reason that I said they were going to stay 689 00:42:08,980 --> 00:42:11,740 S8: on the cross until they died, they were verified dead 690 00:42:12,020 --> 00:42:14,779 S8: by the Roman team or the team themselves were going 691 00:42:14,780 --> 00:42:17,339 S8: to die. And then their bodies were left there to 692 00:42:17,380 --> 00:42:22,540 S8: be eaten by animals for intimidation. Um, so when, when 693 00:42:22,580 --> 00:42:24,900 S8: shock progresses to a certain point, even in those people 694 00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:28,140 S8: who were taken off the cross, then it becomes unrecoverable 695 00:42:28,140 --> 00:42:34,259 S8: and they're going to die anyway. So, uh, and, and 696 00:42:34,980 --> 00:42:38,660 S8: Jesus told us, I think Jesus told us his cause 697 00:42:38,660 --> 00:42:42,620 S8: of death. He, he in Matthew chapter 26, he said 698 00:42:42,860 --> 00:42:45,100 S8: he took the cup and he said, this is my 699 00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:49,210 S8: blood of the New Covenant. that is poured out for 700 00:42:49,210 --> 00:42:52,690 S8: the remission of sins. And to me and to my 701 00:42:52,690 --> 00:42:54,890 S8: medical mind, he was making a medical statement, and he 702 00:42:54,890 --> 00:42:58,610 S8: was telling us that his cause of death was exsanguination 703 00:42:58,610 --> 00:43:02,930 S8: or loss of blood traumatic hemorrhagic shock. And he also 704 00:43:02,930 --> 00:43:06,210 S8: told us why he was doing it. He was inaugurating 705 00:43:06,210 --> 00:43:09,850 S8: a new covenant that God had foretold in Jeremiah 31, 706 00:43:09,850 --> 00:43:13,650 S8: where he would forgive his people, write the laws of 707 00:43:13,650 --> 00:43:16,890 S8: God in their hearts, forgive their sins, and remember them 708 00:43:16,890 --> 00:43:19,290 S8: no more. So he told us why he was doing it, 709 00:43:19,290 --> 00:43:21,969 S8: and he told us, in my view, how he was 710 00:43:21,969 --> 00:43:27,650 S8: going to die. That's by traumatic hemorrhagic shock. Um, but 711 00:43:27,650 --> 00:43:32,930 S8: to to get to the swoon theory, uh, you know, uh, 712 00:43:32,930 --> 00:43:37,529 S8: or to hallucinations rather, um, I collected everything I could 713 00:43:37,530 --> 00:43:41,690 S8: find on hallucination hypotheses. And what I found was that 714 00:43:41,730 --> 00:43:47,640 S8: it was a collection of writings by, theological theological scholars 715 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:53,160 S8: or critical scholars, and they would just write things and 716 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:58,080 S8: say that the disciples hallucinated, and then they would stop 717 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:03,319 S8: and not provide any further discussion beyond that. Um, and 718 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,399 S8: they may have been brilliant theologians, but now they had 719 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,279 S8: ventured into a medical discussion which they were not qualified 720 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,560 S8: to do. And expose them to error in their opinions. 721 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:13,640 S13: Well. 722 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,440 S1: Doctor Bergeron, I could talk two more hours with you 723 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,759 S1: on this. Let me use this instead as an encouragement 724 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,839 S1: to my listeners, because you you have this beautiful graph 725 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:27,560 S1: about explanations for Jesus's resurrections. And it leads to one conclusion. 726 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,879 S1: Up from the grave he arose. Brilliant book. I thank 727 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,759 S1: you for your passion on this topic. I thank you 728 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,960 S1: for sharing it with the rest of us. The crucial 729 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,360 S1: the crucifixion of Jesus. Check it out at In the 730 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:38,719 S1: Market with Janet Parshall.