1 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,120 S1: It's the biggest bully of the Middle East. The nation 2 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,560 S1: of Iran. We've heard all about their nuclear ambitions. They've 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,320 S1: been much in the news. But what's daily life really 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,520 S1: like for women in Iran? Coming up, we'll delve into 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,760 S1: the pressing women's issues in Iran, particularly from a Christian perspective. 6 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,240 S1: Welcome to the land and the book with Doctor Charlie Dyer, 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,840 S1: a widely respected Middle East expert. I'm John Gager and, 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:33,960 S1: you know, Charlie, as believers, of course, there's a great 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,600 S1: need for us to share the gospel with the Jewish people. 10 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,760 S1: In fact, many of our listeners faithfully pray and partner 11 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,839 S1: with ministries that are doing just that. But what if 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,640 S1: we could personally take part in bringing the gospel to 13 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:46,520 S1: Jewish people? 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,520 S2: Well, they can. Our friends at Life in Messiah love 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,640 S2: the opportunity to get believers involved in Jewish ministry. They 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,720 S2: regularly organize outreach teams to Brooklyn, South Florida, and even 17 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,590 S2: to Israel outside times of conflict. These ministry trips will 18 00:01:01,590 --> 00:01:03,990 S2: equip you to understand how to share the gospel with 19 00:01:03,990 --> 00:01:08,030 S2: Jewish people, give you the opportunity to actively share your faith, 20 00:01:08,150 --> 00:01:11,230 S2: and provide tools and resources that you can take home 21 00:01:11,230 --> 00:01:13,710 S2: with you. If you want to get hands on training 22 00:01:13,709 --> 00:01:17,350 S2: and practical experience in Jewish evangelism, you can learn more 23 00:01:17,350 --> 00:01:22,230 S2: by visiting lifeline. Org and clicking on the radio button there. 24 00:01:22,270 --> 00:01:23,990 S2: That's life in Messiah. 25 00:01:25,870 --> 00:01:27,510 S1: And now a look at current events from the Middle 26 00:01:27,510 --> 00:01:30,190 S1: East region. Over the past several weeks, the battle for 27 00:01:30,190 --> 00:01:33,870 S1: Gaza has been fought in the media, and Israel, quite frankly, 28 00:01:33,870 --> 00:01:38,270 S1: has been losing. Has Israel hindered the delivery of aid, 29 00:01:38,270 --> 00:01:43,350 S1: causing widespread starvation? And are they deliberately attacking journalists? What's 30 00:01:43,350 --> 00:01:45,670 S1: the reality behind these accusations? 31 00:01:45,790 --> 00:01:48,350 S2: Yeah, I've got to start with one key reality in 32 00:01:48,350 --> 00:01:52,190 S2: any war. Mistakes do happen and innocent individuals are sometimes 33 00:01:52,190 --> 00:01:55,750 S2: caught in the crossfire. That's been true in every war 34 00:01:55,790 --> 00:02:00,180 S2: throughout history, including Gaza. But that's not the same as 35 00:02:00,180 --> 00:02:04,340 S2: deliberately targeting and starving civilians or trying to hide such 36 00:02:04,340 --> 00:02:07,620 S2: crimes by killing journalists. Those are the charges being made 37 00:02:07,620 --> 00:02:11,420 S2: against Israel. And here's the reality. Most have seen the 38 00:02:11,419 --> 00:02:14,380 S2: pictures of a mother holding a starving child that was 39 00:02:14,380 --> 00:02:16,860 S2: on the front pages of the New York Times and 40 00:02:16,860 --> 00:02:19,580 S2: and other news sources around the country and around the world, 41 00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:23,380 S2: and reports followed that Israel deliberately was withholding aid or 42 00:02:23,419 --> 00:02:26,780 S2: killing people waiting in line to receive it. The problem 43 00:02:26,780 --> 00:02:29,740 S2: is that most of those stories have been misleading or 44 00:02:29,780 --> 00:02:34,100 S2: downright false, and were eventually refuted, but by then the 45 00:02:34,100 --> 00:02:37,460 S2: damage had already been done. Many of the pictures showed 46 00:02:37,460 --> 00:02:41,700 S2: children with pre-existing medical conditions that caused them to appear 47 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:44,739 S2: so emaciated. While the focus of the picture was that 48 00:02:44,740 --> 00:02:47,380 S2: one child, a look closely and you can see that 49 00:02:47,380 --> 00:02:50,980 S2: other siblings and parents along with the child were not starving. 50 00:02:51,260 --> 00:02:56,100 S2: Non-Government organizations complained that Israel was blocking aid deliveries, but 51 00:02:56,100 --> 00:02:59,329 S2: the reality is very different. Israel is checking to make 52 00:02:59,370 --> 00:03:02,210 S2: sure the personnel taking the aid into Gaza are not 53 00:03:02,210 --> 00:03:05,730 S2: members of Hamas, and that the trucks are carrying food 54 00:03:05,730 --> 00:03:09,810 S2: and not trying to smuggle in weapons. Those are reasonable precautions. 55 00:03:10,050 --> 00:03:13,490 S2: And 300 aid trucks are still entering Gaza every day. 56 00:03:14,010 --> 00:03:16,730 S2: Israel did attack and kill a prominent journalist who worked 57 00:03:16,730 --> 00:03:20,050 S2: for Al Jazeera, along with other journalists who were with him. 58 00:03:20,410 --> 00:03:25,570 S2: Israel produced intelligence documents gathered from Gaza, including rosters, terrorist 59 00:03:25,570 --> 00:03:28,890 S2: training lists and salary records showing the journalist was a 60 00:03:28,889 --> 00:03:32,970 S2: Hamas operative and commander of a rocket launching squad. That 61 00:03:32,970 --> 00:03:37,170 S2: documentation was simply dismissed by most news organizations in their 62 00:03:37,170 --> 00:03:40,930 S2: rush to blame Israel. Now, has Israel made mistakes during 63 00:03:40,930 --> 00:03:44,170 S2: the war? Yes, and so has every other nation, including 64 00:03:44,170 --> 00:03:47,130 S2: the U.S., in past conflicts. But why does the media 65 00:03:47,170 --> 00:03:51,770 S2: uncritically accept Hamas's version of the facts while remaining critical 66 00:03:51,770 --> 00:03:54,330 S2: of Israel? To me, the real issue has been the 67 00:03:54,330 --> 00:03:58,720 S2: media's failure to stay objective and check sources for reliability 68 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,920 S2: before reporting. The takeaway is not to simply believe everything 69 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,080 S2: you see or hear. Go online and read The Jerusalem 70 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,640 S2: Post or All Israel News to gain a more balanced perspective. 71 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:12,880 S1: Charlie, I can hear some people saying, why is the 72 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,480 S1: media wired this way? Why not check out the sources? 73 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,480 S1: Why not try to find the facts? 74 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,240 S2: I wish I could say it's just a simple oversight, 75 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,520 S2: but in reality the media does have a slanted objective 76 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,560 S2: at times and in this case, the David versus Goliath 77 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,440 S2: slant that they want to put on stories has Israel 78 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,400 S2: being the Goliath and Hamas being the David, and they 79 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,040 S2: choose to arrange the facts in a way that support 80 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:36,840 S2: that narrative. 81 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,200 S1: That's Doctor Charlie Dyer, noted Middle East scholar. I'm John Yeager. 82 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,440 S1: This is the land and the book. We're going over 83 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,920 S1: a list of current events. Topics from the region France, 84 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,840 S1: the UK, Australia and several other countries have announced plans 85 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,840 S1: to recognize a state of Palestine in September. How is 86 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,220 S1: Israel responding and what can we expect in the coming weeks? 87 00:04:57,380 --> 00:04:59,580 S2: Yeah. In fact, to add to this, just this week, 88 00:04:59,620 --> 00:05:01,580 S2: there was a poll that said even the majority in 89 00:05:01,580 --> 00:05:04,460 S2: the U.S. are supporting a Palestinian state. So I think 90 00:05:04,460 --> 00:05:07,580 S2: this is a very important story for us to be exploring. 91 00:05:07,580 --> 00:05:10,860 S2: But Israel's responding to all this by sharing why a 92 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:14,540 S2: so-called two state solution would be suicidal for Israel. A 93 00:05:14,540 --> 00:05:18,099 S2: Palestinian state could have been established in 1948, but it 94 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:20,979 S2: was the Arabs who rejected it, not Israel. All the 95 00:05:20,980 --> 00:05:24,020 S2: way up till 1967, the Arabs controlled the West Bank 96 00:05:24,020 --> 00:05:27,140 S2: and Gaza, but they didn't set up a Palestinian state. 97 00:05:27,339 --> 00:05:30,100 S2: And the reason is they didn't want a two state solution. 98 00:05:30,100 --> 00:05:32,780 S2: They wanted a one state solution from the river to 99 00:05:32,820 --> 00:05:37,060 S2: the sea without the State of Israel. In 1967, Israel 100 00:05:37,060 --> 00:05:39,820 S2: captured the West Bank and Gaza in a defensive war 101 00:05:40,020 --> 00:05:42,940 S2: as Egypt, Syria and Jordan threatened to push the Jews 102 00:05:42,940 --> 00:05:46,020 S2: into the sea. Well, that fall, Israel offered to exchange 103 00:05:46,020 --> 00:05:48,860 S2: some land for peace, but the Arabs rejected it and 104 00:05:48,860 --> 00:05:51,940 S2: issued their famous three no's no peace with Israel, no 105 00:05:51,940 --> 00:05:56,279 S2: recognition of Ignition of Israel. No negotiations with Israel. Between 106 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,050 S2: 1994 and 2002, the Oslo Accords were promoted by the 107 00:06:00,050 --> 00:06:03,289 S2: West as a pathway to a two state solution, but 108 00:06:03,290 --> 00:06:06,130 S2: that so-called roadmap to peace led to more than 400 109 00:06:06,170 --> 00:06:10,610 S2: Israelis being murdered in suicide bombings and other terrorist acts 110 00:06:10,650 --> 00:06:15,370 S2: sanctioned by the Palestinian Authority. In 2005, Israel unilaterally pulled 111 00:06:15,370 --> 00:06:18,610 S2: out of Gaza. Within two years, Hamas had taken control 112 00:06:18,610 --> 00:06:21,969 S2: of the area and turned it into a terrorist stronghold. 113 00:06:22,250 --> 00:06:25,370 S2: And then in 2023, Hamas used that stronghold to launch 114 00:06:25,370 --> 00:06:29,410 S2: the single greatest slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust. Now, 115 00:06:29,410 --> 00:06:32,290 S2: in addition to presenting their side of the story, others 116 00:06:32,290 --> 00:06:36,210 S2: within Israel are promoting a more aggressive approach. Bezalel Smotrich 117 00:06:36,250 --> 00:06:40,050 S2: announced plans to promote what's called the E1 Settlement Project, 118 00:06:40,210 --> 00:06:43,610 S2: including over 3000 housing units in an area east of 119 00:06:43,610 --> 00:06:46,450 S2: Jerusalem that will effectively cut the West Bank in two. 120 00:06:46,730 --> 00:06:50,130 S2: The plan was actually first proposed back in the 1990s, 121 00:06:50,130 --> 00:06:52,720 S2: but was put on hold as the West pressured Israel 122 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,600 S2: into negotiating with the Palestinians after 30 years of failed 123 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,840 S2: attempts at peace, Smotrich is saying the goal now is 124 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,480 S2: to bury the idea of a Palestinian state once and 125 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,880 S2: for all. As a result, watch for more tension over 126 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:07,800 S2: this issue in the coming months. 127 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:12,280 S1: Wow. A 2000 year old ring was uncovered at hippos, 128 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,920 S1: one of Israel's newest national parks on the Sea of Galilee. Charlie, 129 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,280 S1: we were there. What insight can this discovery shed on 130 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,040 S1: our knowledge of this ancient city? 131 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,080 S2: Yeah, and that's a cool site. John, we were there 132 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,320 S2: shortly after it opened. Actually, a hippos was a gentile 133 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,240 S2: town about midway down the eastern side of the Sea 134 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,160 S2: of Galilee. The ring was a surprise discovery that does 135 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,880 S2: provide us with insight into the town and its history. 136 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,960 S2: Archaeologists believe the ring belonged to a little girl. Because 137 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,400 S2: of its small size, which suggests a level of affluence 138 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,640 S2: in the town during the Roman and Byzantine periods, it 139 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,520 S2: was uncovered in a residential neighborhood, again suggesting that the 140 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,790 S2: inhabitants were able to afford luxury items for their children. 141 00:07:53,190 --> 00:07:55,670 S2: According to the gospel accounts, this town was likely the 142 00:07:55,670 --> 00:07:58,990 S2: original home of the Gerasene demoniac, the one from whom 143 00:07:58,990 --> 00:08:02,110 S2: Jesus cast out a legion of demons into a herd 144 00:08:02,110 --> 00:08:05,110 S2: of swine, and the discovery of at least eight churches 145 00:08:05,110 --> 00:08:08,550 S2: in the town suggests the testimony of that man caused 146 00:08:08,550 --> 00:08:11,830 S2: many to turn to Christ. Now, even this week, archaeologists 147 00:08:11,830 --> 00:08:15,030 S2: announced the discovery of what they're calling the world's oldest 148 00:08:15,070 --> 00:08:18,270 S2: known nursing home in the same town. I wonder if 149 00:08:18,270 --> 00:08:21,150 S2: there just might be a connection between the town's clear 150 00:08:21,150 --> 00:08:24,030 S2: evidence of faith in the number of churches and their 151 00:08:24,030 --> 00:08:27,150 S2: care for the elderly as a practical outworking of that faith. 152 00:08:27,230 --> 00:08:30,630 S2: So between the ring and the nursing home and everything 153 00:08:30,630 --> 00:08:33,230 S2: else we know about that town, it's a fascinating place 154 00:08:33,230 --> 00:08:33,870 S2: to visit. 155 00:08:34,390 --> 00:08:37,750 S1: Well, pardon the pun, but a new wrinkle has appeared 156 00:08:37,750 --> 00:08:41,190 S1: in the debate over the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin. 157 00:08:41,429 --> 00:08:43,790 S1: What are the results of the latest studies and how 158 00:08:43,830 --> 00:08:44,790 S1: accurate are they? 159 00:08:45,070 --> 00:08:47,870 S2: Yeah, the debate over the Shroud of Turin just times 160 00:08:47,870 --> 00:08:51,820 S2: get quite intense. and now two new presentations have been made, 161 00:08:51,820 --> 00:08:56,300 S2: one proving the authenticity of the shroud and one disproving it. 162 00:08:56,780 --> 00:09:00,780 S2: The first, by Doctor Jeremiah Johnston on the Tucker Carlson show, 163 00:09:00,820 --> 00:09:04,540 S2: provided a lively 90 minute presentation of all the evidence, 164 00:09:04,580 --> 00:09:07,939 S2: pointing to the authenticity of the shroud. Doctor Johnson offers 165 00:09:07,940 --> 00:09:11,340 S2: compelling details, though some of his statements like having found 166 00:09:11,380 --> 00:09:14,699 S2: hundreds of burial shrouds that explain the first century practice 167 00:09:14,940 --> 00:09:18,020 S2: there are overstatements. But having done interviews like that before, 168 00:09:18,020 --> 00:09:20,579 S2: I know that can happen in a live interview. The 169 00:09:20,580 --> 00:09:23,699 S2: average person watching the program would likely be convinced the 170 00:09:23,700 --> 00:09:27,260 S2: shroud is real. And that leads to the second presentation, 171 00:09:27,260 --> 00:09:30,740 S2: an article on a 3D analysis of the shroud, comparing 172 00:09:30,740 --> 00:09:32,820 S2: the way the fabric would fall on a real human 173 00:09:32,820 --> 00:09:36,980 S2: body versus a low relief sculpture. The author concludes that 174 00:09:36,980 --> 00:09:39,620 S2: the Shroud of Turin wasn't produced by being draped over 175 00:09:39,620 --> 00:09:42,100 S2: a real person. Now, this study was done by a 176 00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:47,929 S2: Brazilian 3D digital designer who specializes in historical facial reconstruction Construction. 177 00:09:48,090 --> 00:09:52,090 S2: Using 3D simulation, he virtually draped the fabric onto two 178 00:09:52,090 --> 00:09:55,410 S2: different body models and concluded, the fabric, draped over a 179 00:09:55,410 --> 00:09:59,089 S2: low relief model almost exactly matches the shroud. So where 180 00:09:59,090 --> 00:10:02,570 S2: does that leave us? Well, pretty much where we were before. Personally, 181 00:10:02,570 --> 00:10:04,970 S2: I have my doubts about the shroud, but I also 182 00:10:04,970 --> 00:10:09,250 S2: didn't find the 3D modeling argument that compelling. Modeling involves 183 00:10:09,250 --> 00:10:12,570 S2: making assumptions and changing the assumptions. You change the results, 184 00:10:12,850 --> 00:10:14,890 S2: and the article doesn't deal with the other aspects of 185 00:10:14,890 --> 00:10:17,610 S2: the shroud, like explaining how the image was transferred to 186 00:10:17,650 --> 00:10:20,610 S2: the cloth at the end of the day. I remain skeptical, 187 00:10:20,610 --> 00:10:24,090 S2: but I don't believe the 3D model simulation provides a 188 00:10:24,090 --> 00:10:27,410 S2: compelling argument against the shroud. So, John, how's that for 189 00:10:27,410 --> 00:10:29,210 S2: remaining totally uncommitted? 190 00:10:30,090 --> 00:10:32,970 S1: Well, it might be the safest position as well. Thank you, Charlie, 191 00:10:32,970 --> 00:10:35,050 S1: for that. Look at current events from the Middle East. 192 00:10:35,370 --> 00:10:38,969 S1: Up next, a conversation about women's issues in Iran. This 193 00:10:38,970 --> 00:10:41,290 S1: is where the woman who was born and raised in Iran, 194 00:10:41,290 --> 00:10:43,810 S1: who knows the facts and helps us understand what's really 195 00:10:43,809 --> 00:10:47,040 S1: going on. That's all ahead on the land and the book, 196 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:51,480 S1: our website, the land and the book. All women's issues 197 00:10:51,480 --> 00:11:09,240 S1: in Iran next. She was born and raised in Iran, 198 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,200 S1: but a financial crisis led her family to move first 199 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,640 S1: to Germany, ultimately to the United States. Here she found 200 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,800 S1: Christ as Savior. Today, Lily meshi engages unsaved people from 201 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,480 S1: the Muslim world with the good news of the gospel. 202 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,720 S1: We're going to meet her. Talk about what the issues are, 203 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,760 S1: particularly the issues that women face in Iran. Up next, 204 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,960 S1: on today's edition of The Land and the book. Welcome. 205 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,000 S1: I'm John Gieger. If we've never met before we get 206 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,160 S1: into that conversation, let's pause for another thought about how 207 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,280 S1: you and I can reach out to our Muslim friends 208 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,160 S1: right in our own neighborhood. You know, when you think 209 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,800 S1: about connecting a bit further with your Muslim friend or 210 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,420 S1: neighbor or coworker, you might be asking, how much do 211 00:11:47,420 --> 00:11:50,059 S1: I need to know about Islam in order to be effective? 212 00:11:50,220 --> 00:11:54,020 S1: In a conversation with a muslim friend. Doctor Samuel Neiman 213 00:11:54,059 --> 00:11:57,980 S1: serves on the Moody Bible Institute faculty from Pakistan. Good 214 00:11:57,980 --> 00:11:58,900 S1: to have you with us again. 215 00:11:58,940 --> 00:12:00,179 S3: Thank you. John, it's good to be here. 216 00:12:00,260 --> 00:12:02,060 S1: So how much do I have to know about Islam? 217 00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:03,220 S1: Do I have to be an expert? 218 00:12:03,260 --> 00:12:06,860 S3: Not very much. I think you can just have the 219 00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:09,340 S3: basics that are through media. You can learn about the 220 00:12:09,340 --> 00:12:11,780 S3: basic beliefs and all those things, John. But I think 221 00:12:11,780 --> 00:12:13,939 S3: ultimately we need to focus on the Word of God. 222 00:12:14,260 --> 00:12:18,260 S3: And maybe history is good. Some political situation, what is 223 00:12:18,260 --> 00:12:21,820 S3: currently happening, depending on what year or what time, is 224 00:12:21,820 --> 00:12:24,459 S3: also very, very helpful. But I think I just want 225 00:12:24,500 --> 00:12:26,900 S3: to dispel this myth that somehow I have to be 226 00:12:26,900 --> 00:12:31,620 S3: an Islamic scholar to start Christ centered conversations, which is 227 00:12:31,620 --> 00:12:34,980 S3: not the case. Normally, you know from where a person 228 00:12:34,980 --> 00:12:38,140 S3: is maybe sympathize with him or her as far as 229 00:12:38,140 --> 00:12:42,220 S3: their background is concerned, country, whatever. That opens many doors. 230 00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:46,290 S3: So ultimately sharing the love of Christ and opening up 231 00:12:46,290 --> 00:12:48,410 S3: in a way that a person is accepting. 232 00:12:48,450 --> 00:12:51,250 S1: Is there a single tenet of Islam that you think 233 00:12:51,290 --> 00:12:54,290 S1: rises to the top that we ought to be aware of, 234 00:12:54,290 --> 00:12:56,969 S1: or use as a bridge or jumping off point in 235 00:12:56,970 --> 00:12:57,569 S1: any discussion? 236 00:12:57,610 --> 00:12:59,929 S3: I think the five pillars are there. I will say 237 00:12:59,929 --> 00:13:04,490 S3: that the aspect of praying five times a day, you know, 238 00:13:04,650 --> 00:13:07,449 S3: Muslims pray five times a day. They will ask you, well, 239 00:13:07,570 --> 00:13:09,569 S3: why do you pray? Or why do you not pray? 240 00:13:09,890 --> 00:13:13,370 S3: And I think that that clarifies, but also reminding them 241 00:13:13,370 --> 00:13:16,930 S3: that we have a communication with Christ and we can 242 00:13:16,929 --> 00:13:18,250 S3: pray anytime, anywhere. 243 00:13:18,530 --> 00:13:21,050 S1: Doctor Samuel Naaman with us here on the land and 244 00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:25,530 S1: the book. Lili Meshi once enjoyed a career in fortune 245 00:13:25,530 --> 00:13:30,610 S1: 500 companies. Boutique retail banking, wholesale investing. Today she serves 246 00:13:30,610 --> 00:13:34,090 S1: the Ministry of Iran. Alive and drawing from her personal 247 00:13:34,090 --> 00:13:37,770 S1: journey as an Iranian woman, Lilly provides profound insights into 248 00:13:37,770 --> 00:13:41,890 S1: the challenges surrounding women's rights in Iran. We visited with 249 00:13:41,890 --> 00:13:44,480 S1: her before to learn about her journey to Jesus, and 250 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,559 S1: we're glad to connect again. Thank you for being with 251 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,040 S1: us today, Lily on the land and the book. 252 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,240 S4: Thank you so much, John, for having me again on 253 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:51,800 S4: your show. 254 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,240 S1: So here you are, a new believer. Let's just start 255 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,520 S1: right there, a young woman and, uh, you're learning and 256 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,000 S1: growing in Christ. And I'm sure at some point you 257 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,800 S1: have to say, wow, wow, this is a whole different life, 258 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,720 S1: a whole different set of values than what women back 259 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,040 S1: in Iran are learning. What was your first sort of 260 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:09,880 S1: wake up moment along those lines? 261 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,480 S4: You know, the very first thing that I remember noticing 262 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,880 S4: in my faith walk was the issue of our identity 263 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,880 S4: in Iran. I grew up, you know, in a very 264 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:27,120 S4: patriarchal society where women are treated as second class citizens. 265 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:33,160 S4: They're just there to please men. And, uh, they're vulnerable 266 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:39,320 S4: both financially and, um, socially. And, uh, they're always dependent 267 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,790 S4: on the provision that men bring to the family. And 268 00:14:43,790 --> 00:14:47,710 S4: so as a result of that, they're. Deemed as lower 269 00:14:47,710 --> 00:14:52,110 S4: class in society. And so they're always take it upon 270 00:14:52,110 --> 00:14:56,510 S4: themselves to. Bring something of value or offer something of 271 00:14:56,510 --> 00:15:03,310 S4: value to find their identity. And in Christianity, I noticed 272 00:15:03,310 --> 00:15:07,510 S4: that our identity is not found in what type of 273 00:15:07,510 --> 00:15:11,510 S4: education we got. It is not found in what type 274 00:15:11,510 --> 00:15:15,350 S4: of job we have, but it's found in who Christ 275 00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:19,350 S4: is and who we are now as daughters of the 276 00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:22,070 S4: Most High God in His Kingdom. And what are we 277 00:15:22,110 --> 00:15:26,430 S4: here for? And that was revolutionizing for me that totally 278 00:15:26,430 --> 00:15:30,910 S4: revamped my mindset from what I grew up with to 279 00:15:30,950 --> 00:15:32,070 S4: where I am now. 280 00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:34,390 S1: You know, I have to imagine that that would bring 281 00:15:34,390 --> 00:15:37,710 S1: about within you just this urge for other women to 282 00:15:37,710 --> 00:15:41,500 S1: have that same freedom, that same identity as you've described it? 283 00:15:41,660 --> 00:15:45,460 S4: Absolutely. In fact, when I was in my career in 284 00:15:45,460 --> 00:15:48,980 S4: investment and retail banking and all that, I wanted to 285 00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:52,180 S4: share the good news with my own people. I wanted 286 00:15:52,180 --> 00:15:56,260 S4: to make sure that, you know, Iranian women know of 287 00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:59,700 S4: their own identity and know who they are in Christ 288 00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:03,420 S4: and how valuable they are. And so I remember every 289 00:16:03,420 --> 00:16:06,460 S4: Tuesday on my day off, I would go to Iran 290 00:16:06,460 --> 00:16:10,820 S4: Alive Ministry Studio here in Dallas, Texas, and co-host a 291 00:16:10,820 --> 00:16:17,340 S4: program for particularly for younger women and younger generation. And 292 00:16:17,380 --> 00:16:21,220 S4: it wasn't until 2020 when the founder of Iran Alive 293 00:16:21,220 --> 00:16:26,900 S4: Ministries contacted me and invited me to join this mission 294 00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:30,900 S4: and ministry and serving the ministry and the people of 295 00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:34,300 S4: Iran full time. And so he essentially was asking me 296 00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:38,460 S4: to leave my career and everything I had worked for 297 00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:40,970 S4: so far in my life and just join him in 298 00:16:40,970 --> 00:16:44,370 S4: the ministry, and it was very difficult for me. I 299 00:16:44,370 --> 00:16:49,370 S4: remember when I one day I was praying and fasting and, um, 300 00:16:49,530 --> 00:16:52,250 S4: I was on my knees. I said, Lord, I need 301 00:16:52,250 --> 00:16:55,610 S4: to hear from you. This is very difficult. And so 302 00:16:55,810 --> 00:16:59,250 S4: then I had a vision of all the Iranian women. 303 00:16:59,770 --> 00:17:02,890 S4: I mean, it was a large crowd, and I started 304 00:17:02,890 --> 00:17:06,770 S4: weeping when I saw that vision, because I was reminded 305 00:17:06,770 --> 00:17:10,770 S4: of all the hurts and the pains and the abuse 306 00:17:10,770 --> 00:17:13,410 S4: that I went through for 14 long years in my 307 00:17:13,450 --> 00:17:17,210 S4: own marriage. And the Lord reminded me of that. And 308 00:17:17,210 --> 00:17:20,810 S4: he said, I healed you from your hurts and your 309 00:17:20,810 --> 00:17:24,970 S4: pains of your past. And today I want you to 310 00:17:25,010 --> 00:17:28,970 S4: comfort those that are going through the same kind of abuse, 311 00:17:28,970 --> 00:17:32,490 S4: if not more. Will you be my hands and my feet? 312 00:17:32,530 --> 00:17:36,570 S4: Will you be my mouthpiece? And this was when I 313 00:17:36,609 --> 00:17:40,200 S4: decided to leave everything behind and get into the ministry. 314 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,760 S1: Wow. If you're just joining us, this is the land 315 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,760 S1: and the book. We're talking with Lily meshi of Iran 316 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,960 S1: Alive Ministries. We've talked about the fact that Iran is 317 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:53,000 S1: a very patriarchal society. In a previous conversation, you mentioned 318 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,400 S1: there's child marriage. There are all kinds of things that 319 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,120 S1: go on temporary marriages. What are the other issues that 320 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,320 S1: women are facing in Iran today? 321 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:08,240 S4: Social inequality? I mean, um, imagine this as vulnerable economically 322 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,960 S4: and socially, as vulnerable as women in Iran are there? Um, 323 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,680 S4: sexual harassment is something that is very prevalent in workplaces. 324 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,479 S4: First of all, the workforce only consists of about 17% 325 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,080 S4: of women, and the rest are men. But those that 326 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,280 S4: do make the workforce, they are constantly sexually harassed by 327 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,840 S4: male superiors. And, um, if they go to court in 328 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:39,189 S4: the legal system, women's testimony is counted as half of 329 00:18:39,230 --> 00:18:43,710 S4: a man. If a woman is raped and goes to 330 00:18:43,950 --> 00:18:47,630 S4: the court of law and says I was raped, her 331 00:18:47,630 --> 00:18:52,590 S4: testimony alone is not enough to testify to that, because 332 00:18:52,590 --> 00:18:55,950 S4: her testimony is only counted as half of a man 333 00:18:56,510 --> 00:19:00,830 S4: and inheritance laws are against them. A daughter gets half 334 00:19:00,830 --> 00:19:04,909 S4: of what a son gets. It's just the entire system 335 00:19:05,390 --> 00:19:10,470 S4: is said systematically to oppress women. You know, legal age 336 00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:15,390 S4: for women is nine. Imagine the, you know, physiological and 337 00:19:15,390 --> 00:19:18,550 S4: the psychological impact that that is going to make on 338 00:19:18,550 --> 00:19:19,470 S4: a nine year old. 339 00:19:19,590 --> 00:19:22,070 S1: Well, how widespread is this in the Islamic world? It 340 00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:25,070 S1: seems to me that this is not just an Iranian situation, 341 00:19:25,070 --> 00:19:28,790 S1: that this is this is common in most Muslim dominated countries. 342 00:19:28,910 --> 00:19:31,190 S1: Or am I reaching too far with that assessment? 343 00:19:31,230 --> 00:19:34,109 S4: No, you are absolutely right. And I think it all 344 00:19:34,510 --> 00:19:39,530 S4: stems from Prophet Muhammad that married his own wife when 345 00:19:39,530 --> 00:19:42,969 S4: she was nine and he was in his 40s, I believe. Very, 346 00:19:42,970 --> 00:19:46,810 S4: very older. And so I believe that, you know, if 347 00:19:46,850 --> 00:19:50,690 S4: all the rest of the Muslims are using Muhammad as 348 00:19:50,730 --> 00:19:55,930 S4: their example, they're following suit all along. What advantages men 349 00:19:55,930 --> 00:19:57,410 S4: can have over women? 350 00:19:57,810 --> 00:20:00,410 S1: Well, tell me a story that would bring a smile, 351 00:20:00,410 --> 00:20:02,010 S1: that would say, aha, there's hope. 352 00:20:02,850 --> 00:20:07,369 S4: We received a story of a woman who got pregnant 353 00:20:07,369 --> 00:20:11,770 S4: as a result of a temporary marriage. Basically, temporary marriage 354 00:20:11,770 --> 00:20:16,610 S4: is a legal loophole for prostitution in Iran. So it's 355 00:20:16,609 --> 00:20:20,930 S4: an Islamic agreement that a man and a woman can 356 00:20:20,930 --> 00:20:25,530 S4: have sexual relations with one another for a predetermined time 357 00:20:25,530 --> 00:20:29,889 S4: period for a set amount of money. And so this 358 00:20:29,890 --> 00:20:33,689 S4: is legalized in Iran. And so women, because they are 359 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:38,320 S4: financially vulnerable. They get into situations like that, and men 360 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,199 S4: get what they want out of this situation, and women 361 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,400 S4: get money out of the situation and there is no 362 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,520 S4: obligations afterwards or whatnot. So this has become very, very 363 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,200 S4: prevalent in Iran, which is a very wicked practice. Um, 364 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,119 S4: her name was Fatima. She got into this temporary marriage 365 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:01,000 S4: and she becomes pregnant. Then the man who was not 366 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,320 S4: married to her any longer wants her to abort the baby, 367 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,720 S4: and she refuses to abort the baby. She wants this baby. 368 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,440 S4: So she goes into hiding. And one of the places 369 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,760 S4: that she was staying at. A friend of a friend. Um, 370 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:22,040 S4: she encounters Iran Alive Ministries TV channel, and she starts 371 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,720 S4: watching the programming that we have there. And she finds 372 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,680 S4: hope and she becomes a believer. She contacts Iran Life Ministries, 373 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,550 S4: talks to some of our councilors praised the prayer of salvation, 374 00:21:34,550 --> 00:21:38,790 S4: and then we connected her to an underground church leader 375 00:21:38,790 --> 00:21:42,270 S4: who was nurturing her faith and discipling her and helping 376 00:21:42,270 --> 00:21:45,350 S4: her and praying for her situation and whatnot. And the 377 00:21:45,350 --> 00:21:49,389 S4: baby is born. The man comes back around when the 378 00:21:49,390 --> 00:21:54,630 S4: baby was 11 days old, and he wants to forcefully 379 00:21:54,670 --> 00:21:58,510 S4: take the baby and sell the baby to an Arab guy. 380 00:21:58,550 --> 00:21:58,990 S1: Wow. 381 00:21:59,230 --> 00:22:03,389 S4: So she goes into hiding again with the baby. She goes, 382 00:22:03,390 --> 00:22:06,510 S4: I believe, north western part of the region in Iran. 383 00:22:06,790 --> 00:22:11,389 S4: So she goes far away and she starts praying with 384 00:22:11,390 --> 00:22:14,750 S4: this counselor that was, you know, helping her alongside her. 385 00:22:15,310 --> 00:22:19,710 S4: Then the man comes back with a heart that only 386 00:22:19,710 --> 00:22:23,990 S4: God could change. And he was repenting to her that 387 00:22:24,270 --> 00:22:26,870 S4: he wanted to sell the baby and whatnot. And then 388 00:22:26,869 --> 00:22:30,869 S4: she gets to share the gospel with him. They both 389 00:22:30,869 --> 00:22:35,379 S4: become Christians and they both are servants in the Lord 390 00:22:35,380 --> 00:22:39,820 S4: right now, serving that northwestern region of Iran by planting 391 00:22:39,859 --> 00:22:44,540 S4: underground churches in Iran. It's just there is so much 392 00:22:44,540 --> 00:22:49,100 S4: despair and hopelessness in Iran, and a simple message of 393 00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:54,060 S4: the gospel changes hearts and changes minds, and they want 394 00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:58,300 S4: something new. And so a lot of people are coming 395 00:22:58,340 --> 00:23:02,379 S4: to faith. I mean, they're outpacing what we can even 396 00:23:02,420 --> 00:23:06,420 S4: reach out to disciple, because there's just so much spiritual 397 00:23:06,460 --> 00:23:07,500 S4: hunger in Iran. 398 00:23:07,619 --> 00:23:10,900 S1: Women's issues in Iran are focused today on the land 399 00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:13,740 S1: and the book with our guest, Lilly Meshi. You've mentioned 400 00:23:13,780 --> 00:23:16,620 S1: the underground church a couple times. Uh, define that. How 401 00:23:16,619 --> 00:23:18,500 S1: big is it and how does that work? 402 00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:22,780 S4: There is an estimated 2 million believers in Iran in 403 00:23:22,780 --> 00:23:28,179 S4: the underground church. And, um, persecution, of course, is resident 404 00:23:28,180 --> 00:23:32,650 S4: in Iran. And when Iranians come to faith, they basically 405 00:23:32,650 --> 00:23:35,930 S4: not only say yes to Jesus, but they say yes 406 00:23:35,930 --> 00:23:40,690 S4: to us. They deny themselves. They get up and carry 407 00:23:40,690 --> 00:23:45,330 S4: their cross, knowing that any minute persecution is awaiting for 408 00:23:45,330 --> 00:23:48,889 S4: them and they may lose their life. And so basically, 409 00:23:49,290 --> 00:23:54,010 S4: that's what we're catering to about 2 million underground believers 410 00:23:54,010 --> 00:23:58,050 S4: in Iran on a daily basis through Iran Alive Ministries. Mm. 411 00:23:58,290 --> 00:24:00,690 S1: So how do you connect with these people? Obviously, you 412 00:24:00,690 --> 00:24:04,210 S1: can't reach all 2 million. What do you do, for example, 413 00:24:04,210 --> 00:24:06,290 S1: on a daily basis? What does that look like as 414 00:24:06,290 --> 00:24:08,090 S1: you serve at Iran alive? 415 00:24:08,530 --> 00:24:13,689 S4: As you know, satellite TV is illegal in Iran, yet 416 00:24:13,730 --> 00:24:17,450 S4: you know, about 90% of the population in Iran own 417 00:24:17,450 --> 00:24:20,290 S4: a satellite dish, and the government has not been able 418 00:24:20,290 --> 00:24:24,930 S4: to prevail against Iranians to have satellite dishes installed on 419 00:24:24,930 --> 00:24:28,010 S4: the roof of their houses. But, um, so that's the 420 00:24:28,010 --> 00:24:31,760 S4: only opportunity we have to share the gospel with Iranians. 421 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,240 S4: And we have 24 over seven Christian programming, you know, 422 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,879 S4: such as Jesus film. You know, so many different movies, 423 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:47,000 S4: faith based movies and gospel centric programming that are culturally 424 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:52,560 S4: relevant to Iranians to understand and programming that resonate with 425 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,200 S4: their culture and with their with their belief system. And 426 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,520 S4: so we basically air programming like that, and then we 427 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,960 S4: ask people to contact us to let us know of 428 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,600 S4: their faith and our faith journey so we can disciple them. 429 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,320 S4: And so when they contact us, then we very secretly, 430 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,040 S4: of course, we have to be very cautious not to 431 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,920 S4: get anyone in trouble in Iran, especially the underground leaders 432 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,800 S4: in Iran. And so we connect them with the underground 433 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,760 S4: church leaders so that they can get a copy of 434 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,630 S4: the Bible in Farsi. They can, you know, attend online 435 00:25:28,630 --> 00:25:33,070 S4: church churches or underground churches if they're in the demographics 436 00:25:33,070 --> 00:25:35,830 S4: or in the areas where we do have an underground 437 00:25:35,830 --> 00:25:37,030 S4: church in person. 438 00:25:37,270 --> 00:25:40,390 S1: Wow. Thank you for this visit, Lily, for sharing your journey, 439 00:25:40,430 --> 00:25:43,109 S1: your insights, and we'll look forward to connecting with you 440 00:25:43,109 --> 00:25:43,990 S1: again sometime. 441 00:25:44,270 --> 00:25:46,870 S4: Absolutely, John, I appreciate you having me on your show. 442 00:25:46,910 --> 00:25:47,470 S4: Thank you. 443 00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:49,070 S1: Thank you so much. And there's more to come on 444 00:25:49,070 --> 00:25:52,070 S1: the program as we're joined by Doctor Gerald Peterman with 445 00:25:52,070 --> 00:25:54,670 S1: a look at your Bible questions next on the land 446 00:25:54,670 --> 00:26:08,310 S1: and the book. You know, the feeling of working a 447 00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:11,990 S1: hard day. You're exhausted. You finally get home. You plop 448 00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:14,669 S1: down in your favorite chair and it feels so good. 449 00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:19,109 S1: So right. It's exactly what you need right at that moment. Well, 450 00:26:19,109 --> 00:26:22,590 S1: for anybody who puzzles over scripture, anybody with questions about 451 00:26:22,590 --> 00:26:26,030 S1: the Bible, I think that feeling is about the same 452 00:26:26,140 --> 00:26:28,420 S1: for you as you hang with us here next on 453 00:26:28,420 --> 00:26:30,460 S1: the land and the book. Welcome back. By the way, 454 00:26:30,619 --> 00:26:33,739 S1: I'm John Yeager, sitting across from Doctor Gerald Peterman of 455 00:26:33,740 --> 00:26:36,900 S1: the Moody Bible Institute faculty. You love getting these questions, brother, 456 00:26:36,900 --> 00:26:37,500 S1: I can tell. 457 00:26:37,540 --> 00:26:38,780 S5: Oh, it's a pleasure to be here. 458 00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:40,659 S1: Yeah, well, it's a pleasure to have you. You know, 459 00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:42,859 S1: as believers, there is a great need for us to 460 00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:46,219 S1: share the gospel with the Jewish people. In fact, many 461 00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:49,580 S1: of our listeners faithfully pray and they partner with ministries 462 00:26:49,580 --> 00:26:52,500 S1: who are doing just that. But what if you could 463 00:26:52,540 --> 00:26:56,340 S1: personally take part in bringing the gospel to Jewish people? Well, 464 00:26:56,340 --> 00:26:59,139 S1: our friends at Life in Messiah love the opportunity to 465 00:26:59,140 --> 00:27:03,580 S1: get believers involved in Jewish ministry. They regularly organize outreach 466 00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:06,659 S1: teams to Brooklyn, New York, South Florida, and even to 467 00:27:06,700 --> 00:27:10,060 S1: Israel when they're not in conflict. And these ministry trips 468 00:27:10,060 --> 00:27:12,860 S1: will equip you to understand how to share the gospel 469 00:27:12,859 --> 00:27:16,179 S1: with Jewish people. They'll give you the opportunity to actively 470 00:27:16,180 --> 00:27:19,660 S1: share your faith and provide tools and resources that can 471 00:27:19,820 --> 00:27:21,619 S1: well go home with you when you're done. And if 472 00:27:21,619 --> 00:27:24,620 S1: you want to get hands on training and practical experience 473 00:27:24,619 --> 00:27:27,770 S1: in Jewish evangelism. You can learn a whole lot more 474 00:27:27,770 --> 00:27:31,010 S1: by visiting Life in Messiah org and clicking on the 475 00:27:31,010 --> 00:27:35,090 S1: Moody Radio button there. That's life in Messiah. I'm kind 476 00:27:35,130 --> 00:27:36,889 S1: of pumped about our questions today, Jerry. 477 00:27:37,050 --> 00:27:38,169 S5: Yeah, yeah. Me too. 478 00:27:38,210 --> 00:27:40,729 S1: All right, let's dig in. This one from Eric. He 479 00:27:40,730 --> 00:27:43,129 S1: says A few months ago I was in another city 480 00:27:43,130 --> 00:27:45,570 S1: and wanted to attend church, so I ended up attending 481 00:27:45,570 --> 00:27:49,810 S1: a church that has both men and women pastors for that. Sunday, 482 00:27:49,810 --> 00:27:53,169 S1: a woman gave the sermon, and Eric says, what does 483 00:27:53,170 --> 00:27:56,170 S1: the Bible say about who should be a pastor? Based 484 00:27:56,170 --> 00:27:59,209 S1: on Scripture, is it okay to have women as pastors 485 00:27:59,210 --> 00:28:01,370 S1: and to attend these types of churches? 486 00:28:01,930 --> 00:28:04,570 S5: Well, it's a really good question. And as you can imagine, 487 00:28:04,570 --> 00:28:08,290 S5: it's created a lot of controversy. Let's be really careful 488 00:28:08,290 --> 00:28:11,250 S5: how we answer it. It's clear from the Bible that 489 00:28:11,250 --> 00:28:15,730 S5: each person, each man, each woman has worth and dignity 490 00:28:15,890 --> 00:28:20,810 S5: created in God's image. Genesis 126 and 27. Many other 491 00:28:20,810 --> 00:28:25,389 S5: places in Scripture. Scripture also teaches the priesthood of all believers. 492 00:28:25,390 --> 00:28:28,870 S5: I'm thinking first Peter two 5 to 9. That is, 493 00:28:29,190 --> 00:28:33,950 S5: God has given us a special responsibility. And speaking of responsibility, 494 00:28:33,950 --> 00:28:37,590 S5: it's the responsibility of every Christian woman, every Christian man, 495 00:28:37,910 --> 00:28:40,750 S5: to have an active role in edifying the church. Say, 496 00:28:40,750 --> 00:28:44,110 S5: read Romans 12 4 to 8 or First Corinthians 14 497 00:28:44,150 --> 00:28:47,750 S5: several other places. One of my favorites is first Peter 410. 498 00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:50,870 S5: As each of you has received a gift, use it 499 00:28:50,910 --> 00:28:55,470 S5: to serve one another as good stewards of God's varied grace. 500 00:28:55,470 --> 00:28:59,110 S5: So this reality of being receivers of grace means every 501 00:28:59,110 --> 00:29:03,790 S5: believer must serve. But it's also clear from the Bible 502 00:29:03,790 --> 00:29:07,830 S5: that there's a difference between ministry function and church office. 503 00:29:08,110 --> 00:29:11,190 S5: The biblical office of elder or pastor in the early 504 00:29:11,190 --> 00:29:15,670 S5: church was specific to biblically qualified men. See first Timothy 505 00:29:15,710 --> 00:29:19,070 S5: three 1 to 7. Titus one 5 to 9. Paul 506 00:29:19,070 --> 00:29:21,670 S5: says in one Timothy 212, I do not permit a 507 00:29:21,670 --> 00:29:25,140 S5: woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. So 508 00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:27,860 S5: I conclude that the office of pastor should be limited 509 00:29:27,860 --> 00:29:29,660 S5: to biblically qualified men. 510 00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:31,860 S1: You know, wanting to be sensitive to this issue and 511 00:29:31,860 --> 00:29:35,020 S1: to women who are listening, who feel otherwise. My question, 512 00:29:35,060 --> 00:29:38,460 S1: Doctor Peterman, is if it's okay for women to be pastors, 513 00:29:38,460 --> 00:29:41,979 S1: why don't we see examples in Scripture? You know, you 514 00:29:41,980 --> 00:29:44,700 S1: would you would think if that was sanctioned, there'd be 515 00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:45,620 S1: plenty of examples. 516 00:29:45,620 --> 00:29:48,020 S5: You would think there'd be plenty of examples. On the 517 00:29:48,020 --> 00:29:51,500 S5: one hand, there are plenty of examples of men and 518 00:29:51,500 --> 00:29:54,540 S5: women advancing the gospel. There are plenty of examples of 519 00:29:54,540 --> 00:29:57,700 S5: men and women working to spread the gospel. Right. I'm 520 00:29:57,740 --> 00:30:00,100 S5: thinking of Priscilla and Aquila. Sure. You know, she is 521 00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:02,340 S5: not just tagging along for the fun of it. She's 522 00:30:02,380 --> 00:30:06,140 S5: active in advancing the gospel. But that's right. We don't 523 00:30:06,140 --> 00:30:09,500 S5: find any women amongst the apostles. We don't find any 524 00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:14,300 S5: women amongst the pastors. I think that absence speaks loudly. 525 00:30:14,340 --> 00:30:16,740 S1: Yeah. Hey, if you've got a question for us, you're 526 00:30:16,740 --> 00:30:19,500 S1: welcome to email it anytime at The Land and the 527 00:30:19,540 --> 00:30:25,090 S1: book at. Moody's. The land and the book at Moody's. 528 00:30:26,090 --> 00:30:28,810 S1: Getting an answer back from Doctor Peterman takes three months. 529 00:30:28,810 --> 00:30:29,610 S1: Three years. 530 00:30:29,890 --> 00:30:33,450 S5: Oh, those are good guesses. More. More like two days 531 00:30:33,450 --> 00:30:34,050 S5: to a week. 532 00:30:34,090 --> 00:30:36,130 S1: Okay, so not too bad. Could be three days. Could 533 00:30:36,130 --> 00:30:37,810 S1: be a week. But either way, you're going to get 534 00:30:37,810 --> 00:30:40,770 S1: a personalized response back. And we'll very likely use your 535 00:30:40,770 --> 00:30:44,570 S1: question in an upcoming broadcast. The land and the book 536 00:30:44,810 --> 00:30:49,210 S1: at Moody's. Why sit there puzzling over that question, when 537 00:30:49,210 --> 00:30:51,290 S1: you could probably get an answer from somebody who might 538 00:30:51,290 --> 00:30:57,010 S1: just know the land and the book at Moody's, Barb 539 00:30:57,010 --> 00:30:59,290 S1: and Rob have teamed up on this one. She's writing 540 00:30:59,290 --> 00:31:01,330 S1: and says, my husband and I have been pondering about 541 00:31:01,330 --> 00:31:04,610 S1: something outside the box here, but we'd like your thoughts 542 00:31:04,850 --> 00:31:07,090 S1: in the book of Revelation, we know there's an actual 543 00:31:07,130 --> 00:31:10,850 S1: human person who shows up as the beast, the Antichrist, 544 00:31:10,850 --> 00:31:13,730 S1: and also the false prophet. These are all real people, 545 00:31:13,730 --> 00:31:17,250 S1: but could these things not just be particular people, but 546 00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:21,480 S1: also a satanic driven philosophy that overtakes the whole world. 547 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,400 S1: Christians in Africa right now are being killed almost daily 548 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,080 S1: and against a strong Marxist or Islamic mindset that could 549 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,440 S1: be behind it. What thoughts do you have here? 550 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,400 S5: Well, I just love this question and really appreciate the 551 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,120 S5: thinking behind this question. And I think the short answer 552 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:41,360 S5: is yes, it's both. Paul talks in first Corinthians two 553 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,800 S5: about the spirit of the world, and he contrasts it 554 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,960 S5: with God's Spirit. He talks about the wisdom of the world, 555 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,960 S5: and he contrasts that with godly wisdom or wisdom from God. 556 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,360 S5: So when Paul says, the wisdom of the world, or 557 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,600 S5: when he says, the spirit of the world, we could 558 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:04,360 S5: say so-called wisdom or an ungodly mindset or a satanic worldview. 559 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:09,040 S5: The mindset that falsely defines wisdom is, of course, from 560 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,840 S5: the devil who's been a liar from the very beginning. 561 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,760 S5: No doubt, in our current society, there are some people, 562 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,670 S5: men or women, who lead others astray stray into an 563 00:32:18,670 --> 00:32:22,790 S5: ungodly philosophy. And no doubt also there is a mindset 564 00:32:22,830 --> 00:32:26,310 S5: that's infused into our world from our great enemy. 565 00:32:26,910 --> 00:32:29,550 S1: Great answer. Thank you for that. Nancy takes us to 566 00:32:29,590 --> 00:32:33,350 S1: Psalm 118, pointing out that this is such a joyful 567 00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:36,630 S1: Psalm and it seems to point to the Messiah. Verse 568 00:32:36,630 --> 00:32:40,710 S1: 27 in the NASB says. Bind the festival sacrifice with 569 00:32:40,710 --> 00:32:43,750 S1: cords to the horns of the altar. Yet the NIV 570 00:32:43,790 --> 00:32:46,670 S1: sounds so different. With boughs in hand, join in the 571 00:32:46,670 --> 00:32:49,870 S1: festival procession up to the horns of the altar. This 572 00:32:49,870 --> 00:32:52,510 S1: sounds like the procession on Palm Sunday. Can you offer 573 00:32:52,510 --> 00:32:55,350 S1: any enlightenment here? What are the horns of the altar? 574 00:32:55,670 --> 00:33:01,070 S5: Joyful, yes, Nancy says, joyful. Joyful indeed! In this Psalm 575 00:33:01,070 --> 00:33:04,230 S5: does point to the Messiah. As a matter of fact, 576 00:33:04,270 --> 00:33:08,710 S5: our Lord Jesus quotes Psalm 118, verse 22, when he's 577 00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:12,390 S5: in an argument with chief priests and elders in Matthew 2142. 578 00:33:12,430 --> 00:33:15,310 S5: But wait, let me get to the question. The new 579 00:33:15,310 --> 00:33:18,940 S5: American standard, the NIV, differ because of a difficult Hebrew 580 00:33:18,980 --> 00:33:22,260 S5: word construction, although in the NIV you'll see they give 581 00:33:22,260 --> 00:33:25,020 S5: a footnote with an alternative reading, which is a lot 582 00:33:25,020 --> 00:33:27,020 S5: like the new American standard. So I'm going to pass 583 00:33:27,020 --> 00:33:29,739 S5: that by and go to what about the horns of 584 00:33:29,740 --> 00:33:32,820 S5: the altar? Yeah. We see in God's directions for creating 585 00:33:32,820 --> 00:33:36,780 S5: the tabernacle and all the furnishings around it, and altar 586 00:33:36,780 --> 00:33:40,500 S5: for burnt offering. And he mentions God mentions that the 587 00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:43,380 S5: altar must have horns. There will be a horn much 588 00:33:43,380 --> 00:33:47,460 S5: like a bull's horn on each corner. Exodus 27, verses 589 00:33:47,460 --> 00:33:50,340 S5: one and two says, you shall make the altar of 590 00:33:50,340 --> 00:33:53,220 S5: acacia wood. You shall make a horn on each of 591 00:33:53,220 --> 00:33:55,580 S5: the four corners, so that the horns and the altar 592 00:33:55,580 --> 00:34:00,860 S5: are one piece. Why horns? A horn is a symbol 593 00:34:00,860 --> 00:34:05,460 S5: of power and might. In the place where our sins 594 00:34:05,460 --> 00:34:09,060 S5: are atoned for is a place where God's power is 595 00:34:09,060 --> 00:34:11,940 S5: shown and is at work. So I think that's a 596 00:34:11,940 --> 00:34:15,540 S5: symbol of God's power at work in this place of atonement. 597 00:34:16,050 --> 00:34:18,089 S1: This is the land and the book. You're listening to 598 00:34:18,090 --> 00:34:21,089 S1: our question and answer segment. Doctor Gerald Peterman is on 599 00:34:21,090 --> 00:34:24,290 S1: the Moody Bible Institute faculty. I'm John Gager trying to 600 00:34:24,290 --> 00:34:27,890 S1: learn from him as we do every week. Jennifer's question is, 601 00:34:27,890 --> 00:34:31,650 S1: why did God allow God's men to have several wives 602 00:34:31,650 --> 00:34:34,730 S1: and concubines? And is it okay now due to low 603 00:34:34,730 --> 00:34:36,850 S1: birth rates and underpopulation? 604 00:34:37,370 --> 00:34:40,689 S5: Well, I really appreciate this question because every time I've 605 00:34:40,690 --> 00:34:43,210 S5: read the Old Testament and I hear about David's multiple 606 00:34:43,210 --> 00:34:47,050 S5: wives or Solomon's 700 wives, it makes me very uncomfortable. 607 00:34:47,050 --> 00:34:48,970 S5: So I can see where this question is coming from. 608 00:34:49,370 --> 00:34:52,290 S5: But I think it's quite clear from Scripture that one 609 00:34:52,290 --> 00:34:57,490 S5: man and one woman was always God's purpose in Genesis two. 610 00:34:57,690 --> 00:35:00,609 S5: It's not good for the man to be alone. I 611 00:35:00,610 --> 00:35:06,490 S5: will make him a helper. One man, one woman. Deuteronomy 1717. 612 00:35:06,690 --> 00:35:09,610 S5: In the qualifications given for a king, we find this 613 00:35:10,050 --> 00:35:15,350 S5: the king shall not multiply wives to himself. I recommend 614 00:35:15,390 --> 00:35:17,750 S5: that readers read the story of Solomon, and then go 615 00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:20,230 S5: back and read Deuteronomy 17 and see what things he 616 00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:23,989 S5: got wrong. Malachi two God says he hates divorce and 617 00:35:23,989 --> 00:35:28,150 S5: then talks about a man and his covenant wife. Note 618 00:35:28,150 --> 00:35:32,270 S5: the singular. So back to the question why did God 619 00:35:32,270 --> 00:35:35,589 S5: allow multiple wives? I take it that during the Old 620 00:35:35,590 --> 00:35:40,830 S5: Testament period, God is focusing on idolatry. The idolatry is 621 00:35:40,830 --> 00:35:45,710 S5: hideous and revolting. But what do you base monogamy on? 622 00:35:45,750 --> 00:35:48,270 S5: What do you base marriage on? You base marriage on 623 00:35:48,270 --> 00:35:51,350 S5: your theology? You base marriage on your view of God? Yes. 624 00:35:51,390 --> 00:35:56,790 S5: So he's working toward eliminating idolatry, getting trust in him 625 00:35:57,510 --> 00:36:01,270 S5: rather than working on their monogamy, which would be working 626 00:36:01,270 --> 00:36:05,190 S5: at things at a secondary level. No doubt he always 627 00:36:05,190 --> 00:36:07,790 S5: wanted one man. One woman. 628 00:36:07,830 --> 00:36:10,590 S1: Okay, well, that's helpful to see that perspective. I appreciate 629 00:36:10,590 --> 00:36:13,460 S1: you bringing all of that nuance to the The conversation. 630 00:36:13,460 --> 00:36:15,819 S1: As you can see, these are great answers and well 631 00:36:15,860 --> 00:36:18,900 S1: thought through. And again, you're welcome to ask your question 632 00:36:18,900 --> 00:36:21,660 S1: with an email to the land and the book at. 633 00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:28,060 S1: The land and the book at. If it's been a 634 00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:30,340 S1: while since you've been to our website, you should probably 635 00:36:30,340 --> 00:36:32,459 S1: check it out because we've got some great resources there, 636 00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:36,140 S1: including books that Charlie Dyer has written, including information about 637 00:36:36,140 --> 00:36:40,219 S1: today's guest, past programs, future programs, and more. All at 638 00:36:40,219 --> 00:36:45,379 S1: the land and the book, The land and the book org. 639 00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:47,939 S1: There's more to come. It's Charlie Dyer's devotional. He takes 640 00:36:47,940 --> 00:36:50,259 S1: us to a place in Scripture and nails it to 641 00:36:50,260 --> 00:37:06,739 S1: a passage in Scripture next. Here's the funny thing about time. 642 00:37:06,940 --> 00:37:08,940 S1: When you and I are on time for a meeting, 643 00:37:08,940 --> 00:37:12,250 S1: on time for a plane, on time for anything, You know, 644 00:37:12,290 --> 00:37:16,209 S1: that's nice. But when others are late, well, somehow we're 645 00:37:16,210 --> 00:37:20,170 S1: not as grace-filled toward them. Charlie, your devotional coming up 646 00:37:20,170 --> 00:37:21,890 S1: here has everything to do with time. 647 00:37:22,130 --> 00:37:24,330 S2: Yeah. It does. I want to talk about God always 648 00:37:24,330 --> 00:37:25,410 S2: being right on time. 649 00:37:25,450 --> 00:37:28,090 S1: All right. Which some of us are definitely not. But 650 00:37:28,130 --> 00:37:30,850 S1: we'll get to that after this Holy Land experience. I 651 00:37:30,850 --> 00:37:33,410 S1: love these testimonies, these comments from people who've been to 652 00:37:33,450 --> 00:37:35,330 S1: Israel and share with you and me. 653 00:37:39,570 --> 00:37:43,690 S6: For me, the highlight was the Sea of Galilee and 654 00:37:43,810 --> 00:37:47,330 S6: being on that boat out in the sea and thinking 655 00:37:47,330 --> 00:37:52,730 S6: about Jesus and Him looking out to the shore and 656 00:37:53,130 --> 00:37:56,009 S6: thinking of fishers of men. When all these fishermen are 657 00:37:56,010 --> 00:37:59,170 S6: on their boats, bringing in their nets of fish, and 658 00:37:59,489 --> 00:38:03,050 S6: just reliving that experience of of being on that sea. 659 00:38:03,410 --> 00:38:09,650 S7: I was particularly impressed with the Garden of Gethsemane and 660 00:38:09,650 --> 00:38:13,520 S7: as I reflected on what Jesus was thinking when he 661 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,399 S7: was in there was just mind boggling to think that 662 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,440 S7: he knew what he was going to be going through 663 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,480 S7: and that preceded Calvary. And just knowing what he was 664 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:26,920 S7: going to go through beforehand. 665 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,600 S1: All right. Thank you for those thoughts, Charlie. The clock 666 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,040 S1: is ticking, so we'll let you have at it. 667 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,839 S2: Oh. Thanks, John. You know, I got to start right 668 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,239 S2: up front saying I hate being late. My idea of 669 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,320 S2: being on time is showing up for an event about 670 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,520 S2: a half hour before it begins. I traced this back 671 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,880 S2: to my boyhood days in northeastern Pennsylvania. Our church service 672 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,400 S2: began at 830 in the morning, but by 8:00, virtually 673 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,840 S2: everyone was at the church. I also worked several summers 674 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,680 S2: at a local nursery. We started the day at eight, 675 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,080 S2: but starting met being on the truck, tools loaded and 676 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,310 S2: ready to go. The workers were expected to arrive 20 677 00:39:05,310 --> 00:39:08,480 S2: to 30 minutes early. I'm still a fanatic when it 678 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,430 S2: comes to showing up early. To be early is to 679 00:39:11,469 --> 00:39:14,230 S2: be on time. And that's why I find the events 680 00:39:14,230 --> 00:39:18,390 S2: of John 11 to be so fascinating and disturbing all 681 00:39:18,390 --> 00:39:21,590 S2: at the same time. This is the chapter where Jesus 682 00:39:21,590 --> 00:39:25,509 S2: appears to be unfashionably late. To understand what I mean, 683 00:39:25,510 --> 00:39:27,830 S2: let's hike over the Mount of Olives to the village 684 00:39:27,830 --> 00:39:32,069 S2: of Bethany, where our story begins. Bethany. Nestled on the 685 00:39:32,070 --> 00:39:35,030 S2: eastern slopes of the Mount of Olives, about two miles 686 00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:38,230 S2: from Jerusalem, along the road that goes down from Jerusalem 687 00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:42,589 S2: to Jericho. Just beyond Bethany is the Judean Wilderness, an 688 00:39:42,590 --> 00:39:46,710 S2: area of barren, rock strewn hills scarred by deep cliffs. 689 00:39:46,989 --> 00:39:51,990 S2: In Jesus's day, the land was deserted, desolate and dangerous. 690 00:39:52,190 --> 00:39:54,950 S2: His parable of the Good Samaritan was based on the 691 00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:58,750 S2: reality that the road through this wilderness to Jericho wasn't 692 00:39:58,750 --> 00:40:01,950 S2: always safe for travelers. And yet, as we walked down 693 00:40:01,950 --> 00:40:05,310 S2: the steep roadway toward Bethany, we see a lone figure 694 00:40:05,350 --> 00:40:08,299 S2: leaving the village and heading away from us toward the 695 00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:11,939 S2: wilderness and Jericho, and the puffs of dust being kicked 696 00:40:11,940 --> 00:40:15,060 S2: up behind him. Tell us he's in a hurry. The 697 00:40:15,060 --> 00:40:17,900 S2: rocky hills of the wilderness will soon slow his pace, 698 00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:21,260 S2: but for now, he's a man on a mission. But 699 00:40:21,300 --> 00:40:24,859 S2: where and why? We discover the answer as we near 700 00:40:24,860 --> 00:40:28,299 S2: the home of Mary, Martha and Lazarus. Rushing from the 701 00:40:28,300 --> 00:40:31,940 S2: cistern toward the house, is Martha carrying a clay jar. 702 00:40:32,060 --> 00:40:35,100 S2: The water splashing out as she races through the doorway. 703 00:40:35,420 --> 00:40:38,340 S2: We follow her inside and find ourselves in a first 704 00:40:38,340 --> 00:40:42,380 S2: century emergency room. Lazarus lies curled up on a pallet, 705 00:40:42,420 --> 00:40:45,900 S2: a blanket wrapped around his shivering frame, his face pale, 706 00:40:45,900 --> 00:40:50,180 S2: his eyes closed, his breath coming in short, shallow gasps. 707 00:40:50,380 --> 00:40:53,140 S2: Mary is beside him, wiping his fevered brow with a 708 00:40:53,140 --> 00:40:57,460 S2: damp cloth while whispering into his ear. Lazarus, don't give up! 709 00:40:57,700 --> 00:41:00,700 S2: We've sent for the master. Stay with us till he comes. 710 00:41:01,380 --> 00:41:04,140 S2: Mary looks at Martha and their eyes lock, each hoping 711 00:41:04,140 --> 00:41:07,610 S2: to draw strength from the other, but both realize it's 712 00:41:07,610 --> 00:41:11,730 S2: probably too late. Their brother is dying. Minute by minute, 713 00:41:11,730 --> 00:41:15,450 S2: his breathing is growing more labored, his strength ebbing away, 714 00:41:15,610 --> 00:41:19,290 S2: his skin turning an ashen gray. Their only hope is 715 00:41:19,290 --> 00:41:22,810 S2: the slim possibility that Jesus can be found and can 716 00:41:22,810 --> 00:41:25,330 S2: return in time to help. That's why they sent the 717 00:41:25,330 --> 00:41:29,170 S2: messenger to find him. Who was the messenger? What was 718 00:41:29,170 --> 00:41:31,850 S2: his message? And where was he going? Was he a 719 00:41:31,850 --> 00:41:35,330 S2: servant or perhaps a friend or neighbor? We don't know. 720 00:41:35,570 --> 00:41:39,570 S2: His name isn't important, but his destination and his message were. 721 00:41:39,810 --> 00:41:42,650 S2: He was sent by Mary and Martha to find Jesus 722 00:41:42,650 --> 00:41:45,970 S2: and to tell him. Lord, behold, he whom you love 723 00:41:45,969 --> 00:41:49,410 S2: is sick. He was sent to find the Great Physician 724 00:41:49,410 --> 00:41:52,729 S2: to let him know they needed his help. But how 725 00:41:52,730 --> 00:41:55,810 S2: would the messenger even know where to find Jesus? The 726 00:41:55,810 --> 00:41:59,530 S2: last few verses in John ten provide the answer. Jesus 727 00:41:59,530 --> 00:42:02,890 S2: had withdrawn beyond the Jordan to the place where John 728 00:42:02,890 --> 00:42:06,280 S2: was first baptizing and he was staying there. And according 729 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,720 S2: to John 128, John the Baptist had been baptizing at 730 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:14,880 S2: Bethany beyond the Jordan. Though some translations identify it as bethabara, 731 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,319 S2: but whether its name was Bethany or Bethabara, we know 732 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,120 S2: where it was located. Just to the east of Jericho, 733 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:25,000 S2: on the other side of the Jordan River. Sadly, the 734 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,040 S2: messenger was too late. Lazarus died before the messenger even 735 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,520 S2: made it to Jericho. But he had no way of 736 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,160 S2: knowing his journey was in vain, even as he hurried 737 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,799 S2: to cross the Jordan and find Jesus. Lazarus's body was 738 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,839 S2: being washed, wrapped, and placed in the family tomb. It 739 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,480 S2: would have taken the messenger almost an entire day to 740 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,920 S2: travel from the home of Mary and Martha to the 741 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,239 S2: place where Jesus was staying. He didn't know Lazarus was 742 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:54,120 S2: already dead when he finally found Jesus and delivered the message. 743 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,960 S2: But I'm sure he was surprised by Jesus's response. Rather 744 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,959 S2: than agreeing to leave immediately, Jesus decided to stay two 745 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,340 S2: days longer in the place where he was. Jesus didn't 746 00:43:05,340 --> 00:43:08,500 S2: begin his journey to Bethany until the fourth day after 747 00:43:08,500 --> 00:43:11,219 S2: Mary and Martha had sent for him. And it would 748 00:43:11,219 --> 00:43:13,620 S2: take most of that day to make the trip. It 749 00:43:13,620 --> 00:43:15,979 S2: must have been late afternoon on that fourth day when 750 00:43:15,980 --> 00:43:21,500 S2: Jesus finally arrived in Bethany. So when Jesus came, John records, 751 00:43:21,500 --> 00:43:24,060 S2: he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb 752 00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:28,460 S2: four days. When Jesus met Martha and Mary, they both 753 00:43:28,460 --> 00:43:31,739 S2: had the same initial response. Lord, if you had been here, 754 00:43:31,739 --> 00:43:35,100 S2: my brother would not have died. The harsh reality of 755 00:43:35,100 --> 00:43:39,700 S2: the situation again hit home. Perhaps the messenger had returned 756 00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:44,980 S2: two days earlier with Jesus's perplexing answer. No, Jesus wasn't 757 00:43:44,980 --> 00:43:49,379 S2: following right behind. He seemed unconcerned about Lazarus's condition and 758 00:43:49,380 --> 00:43:51,859 S2: planned to stay at the Jordan a little while longer. 759 00:43:52,260 --> 00:43:54,859 S2: But in any case, it didn't matter because Lazarus had 760 00:43:54,860 --> 00:43:58,900 S2: died before Jesus even received word that he had fallen ill. 761 00:43:59,260 --> 00:44:03,010 S2: The delay was puzzling, but even had Jesus come immediately, 762 00:44:03,010 --> 00:44:06,370 S2: he would still have arrived too late. Much truth is 763 00:44:06,370 --> 00:44:09,930 S2: compressed in Jesus's words to Martha and Mary. But note 764 00:44:09,969 --> 00:44:14,089 S2: what Jesus does when he reaches Lazarus's tomb. He wept, 765 00:44:14,570 --> 00:44:18,770 S2: he prayed, and then he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, 766 00:44:18,810 --> 00:44:23,089 S2: come forth! And it became apparent to everyone present that 767 00:44:23,090 --> 00:44:27,330 S2: Jesus had indeed arrived right on time. Had Jesus arrived 768 00:44:27,330 --> 00:44:30,610 S2: before Lazarus died, or before he'd been in the grave 769 00:44:30,610 --> 00:44:33,770 S2: too long, then the power and scope of the miracle 770 00:44:33,770 --> 00:44:37,489 S2: wouldn't have been as evident. Jesus wasn't just good at 771 00:44:37,530 --> 00:44:40,170 S2: healing the sick, or even at raising someone who had 772 00:44:40,170 --> 00:44:42,969 S2: just died, like a young girl in Capernaum or a 773 00:44:42,969 --> 00:44:46,610 S2: young boy in Nain. He had the ability to unchain 774 00:44:46,610 --> 00:44:50,569 S2: death itself, to restore to life someone whose body had 775 00:44:50,570 --> 00:44:54,450 S2: already begun to decompose. We find it hard to pull 776 00:44:54,450 --> 00:44:57,609 S2: away from the scene in front of us, Mary and Martha, 777 00:44:57,650 --> 00:45:00,970 S2: tearing away the cloth strips around their brother while hugging 778 00:45:00,969 --> 00:45:04,000 S2: and kissing him at the same time. Yet it's time 779 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,200 S2: to head back over to the Mount of Olives toward home. 780 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,120 S2: But what lessons can we carry with us from this 781 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,399 S2: time in Bethany? Let me suggest two. First, remember that 782 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,799 S2: God's timetable extends beyond this life. We sometimes live as 783 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,240 S2: if God's plans end at death. But the Bible reminds 784 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,720 S2: us that even death will someday be swallowed up in victory. 785 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,640 S2: God will provide. Maintaining an eternal perspective helps us understand 786 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,000 S2: why our labor in the Lord is not in vain. 787 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,320 S2: And second, remember that even in this life, God always 788 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,000 S2: shows up right on time. It might not be the 789 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,400 S2: time we've set or the schedule we think he should keep, 790 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,600 S2: but as Solomon observed in Ecclesiastes three, he has made 791 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:54,359 S2: everything appropriate in its time. Just ask Mary, Martha, and Lazarus. 792 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:59,160 S1: Thank you Charlie. Great insights there. God's timetable extends beyond 793 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,270 S1: this life. So live. So let's maintain an eternal perspective, 794 00:46:02,270 --> 00:46:06,750 S1: remembering that God always shows up right on time. Our 795 00:46:06,750 --> 00:46:09,630 S1: podcast is available to you at the website, the land 796 00:46:09,630 --> 00:46:13,029 S1: and the book. If you've never checked it out, it's 797 00:46:13,030 --> 00:46:15,830 S1: a great resource and you can use it to play 798 00:46:15,830 --> 00:46:18,790 S1: today's program again, or share it with friends who aren't 799 00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:21,430 S1: familiar with the broadcast. Thanks for taking advantage of that 800 00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:24,589 S1: at the land and the book. Love to get an 801 00:46:24,590 --> 00:46:26,629 S1: email from you. Whether it's a question you've got for 802 00:46:26,630 --> 00:46:29,149 S1: Doctor Peterman or just a comment you'd like to make, 803 00:46:29,190 --> 00:46:32,989 S1: our email address is the Land and the book at Moody's. 804 00:46:34,110 --> 00:46:38,270 S1: That's the land and the book at Moody's. Thanks for 805 00:46:38,270 --> 00:46:41,029 S1: being with us today. We love having your company. Our 806 00:46:41,030 --> 00:46:43,629 S1: production is created by three folks you need to know. 807 00:46:43,670 --> 00:46:47,430 S1: Dan Anderson, our producer, Charlie Dyer, our host I'm John Geiger. 808 00:46:47,469 --> 00:46:50,270 S1: Thank you for being with us today for the Land 809 00:46:50,270 --> 00:46:53,310 S1: and the book, a production of Moody Radio, a ministry 810 00:46:53,310 --> 00:46:54,910 S1: of Moody Bible Institute.