1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:10,160 S1: You know him from his groundbreaking best selling book, boundaries. 2 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,959 S1: But today on Chris favorite live Doctor Henry Cloud takes 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,040 S1: us on a guided tour of the heart and soul 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,520 S1: and pulls back the curtain on the spiritual life. How 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,560 S1: to find purpose and meaning. How do you find joy 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,120 S1: and peace in a world that's marred with suffering and 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,720 S1: struggle and all that conflict that's out there and is 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,680 S1: in here too? How can you live fully with the 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,280 S1: tension between the way things are and the way you 10 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,160 S1: long for them to be? How do you know God 11 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,160 S1: and follow him? We'll talk about that straight ahead, as 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,880 S1: Doctor Cloud invites you on a 90 day invitation to 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:51,319 S1: come as come to God as you are. That's what 14 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,280 S1: we're going to do. Straight ahead on Chris Fabry live 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,360 S1: the program from the heart to the heart for the heart. 16 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,360 S1: I can't believe I get to talk with Doctor Henry Cloud, 17 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,150 S1: and there are no boundaries in this conversation. Let's get 18 00:01:01,150 --> 00:01:03,190 S1: going with a thank you. First of all, to our team, 19 00:01:03,190 --> 00:01:06,750 S1: Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. Trish is our producer. 20 00:01:06,790 --> 00:01:10,309 S1: Lisa I just saw Lisa's here too. Josh is here 21 00:01:10,310 --> 00:01:12,510 S1: as well. And thank you friends and partners for your 22 00:01:12,510 --> 00:01:14,910 S1: support in November. We can't do what we do without 23 00:01:14,910 --> 00:01:17,669 S1: your support. I choose a little thank you each month 24 00:01:17,670 --> 00:01:20,550 S1: to send your way, and this month it is a 25 00:01:20,550 --> 00:01:26,149 S1: delightful 32 page little Christmas carol coloring and activity book 26 00:01:26,230 --> 00:01:29,630 S1: for children ages 6 to 10. But Doctor Cloud could 27 00:01:29,630 --> 00:01:31,229 S1: do this as well. We're going to send him some 28 00:01:31,230 --> 00:01:34,710 S1: crayons and some colored pencils, and he's going to get 29 00:01:34,709 --> 00:01:37,950 S1: to it because kids of all ages will have fun 30 00:01:37,950 --> 00:01:40,870 S1: with this. And here's my heart in giving this. I 31 00:01:40,870 --> 00:01:42,429 S1: like to think of this as a way to move 32 00:01:42,470 --> 00:01:46,990 S1: a child or grandchild away from a screen to a page. 33 00:01:47,270 --> 00:01:52,190 S1: I think there's something calming and reparative about doing this 34 00:01:52,190 --> 00:01:54,630 S1: kind of thing, of coloring, or doing the mazes or 35 00:01:54,630 --> 00:02:00,270 S1: the crossword puzzles with those crayons or markers. Will you call, 36 00:02:00,270 --> 00:02:02,750 S1: click through and support us today? We're about a third 37 00:02:02,750 --> 00:02:05,310 S1: of the way to our goal in the month of November, 38 00:02:05,310 --> 00:02:07,470 S1: and we're halfway to the end of November. So we 39 00:02:07,470 --> 00:02:15,510 S1: need to hear from you at 866958669532279 or go to 40 00:02:15,550 --> 00:02:22,390 S1: Chris Fabbri Fabbri Chris Fabbri Live. Scroll down and you'll 41 00:02:22,389 --> 00:02:25,149 S1: see how you can support us right there and keep 42 00:02:25,150 --> 00:02:27,829 S1: the conversations going like the one that we're having with 43 00:02:27,830 --> 00:02:31,670 S1: Doctor Henry Cloud today. He is an acclaimed leadership expert, 44 00:02:31,950 --> 00:02:35,350 S1: clinical psychologist, and New York Times best selling author. He's 45 00:02:35,350 --> 00:02:42,790 S1: written 46 books, including the iconic Boundaries, Necessary Endings, Changes 46 00:02:42,790 --> 00:02:45,350 S1: That He'll Never Go Back, and he wrote the books 47 00:02:45,350 --> 00:02:48,750 S1: on trust and integrity as well. I didn't know before 48 00:02:48,750 --> 00:02:51,150 S1: today that he played golf for SMU. We got to 49 00:02:51,150 --> 00:02:54,870 S1: talk about that. He has an extensive executive coaching background, 50 00:02:54,870 --> 00:02:59,060 S1: experience as a leadership Consultant, devoting the majority of his 51 00:02:59,060 --> 00:03:03,899 S1: time working with CEOs, leadership teams and executives to improve performance, 52 00:03:03,900 --> 00:03:06,500 S1: leadership skills and culture. So part of his work is 53 00:03:06,500 --> 00:03:10,100 S1: done in the business world. But this is his first 54 00:03:10,100 --> 00:03:14,700 S1: devotional and it arrested me. It's titled To Know Him 55 00:03:15,220 --> 00:03:18,260 S1: A 90 Day Invitation to Come to God as you are. 56 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:20,820 S1: Doctor Henry Cloud, welcome to the program. How are you 57 00:03:20,820 --> 00:03:21,540 S1: doing today? 58 00:03:22,180 --> 00:03:24,460 S2: Hi, Chris. Very well. Good to be with you. 59 00:03:25,220 --> 00:03:28,340 S1: Uh, okay. Real quick question about boundaries. I know that 60 00:03:28,340 --> 00:03:30,900 S1: everybody talks to you about that, but did you have 61 00:03:30,900 --> 00:03:35,980 S1: any word? What's that word? Did you have any idea 62 00:03:36,100 --> 00:03:39,820 S1: what it would do when you wrote that? No. 63 00:03:39,860 --> 00:03:42,500 S2: It had a totally different purpose in mind. I, I 64 00:03:42,660 --> 00:03:46,940 S2: had written Changes at Heal and changes at heal is 65 00:03:46,940 --> 00:03:51,220 S2: about the big four developmental steps that get broken in us. 66 00:03:51,260 --> 00:03:54,500 S2: You know, we're getting glued together in our formative years 67 00:03:54,740 --> 00:03:58,860 S2: and how the spiritual life repairs us. And the the 68 00:03:58,860 --> 00:04:02,180 S2: first one is, you know, attachment, connection. You got to 69 00:04:02,180 --> 00:04:05,100 S2: get pretty well grounded when you're a baby, right? It 70 00:04:05,100 --> 00:04:07,580 S2: all starts there. But then you notice in the second 71 00:04:07,620 --> 00:04:10,740 S2: year that baby starts to crawl away and they establish 72 00:04:10,740 --> 00:04:14,660 S2: their own separateness or boundaries, and they learn the word 73 00:04:14,660 --> 00:04:17,140 S2: no and all of that stuff. And so and then 74 00:04:17,140 --> 00:04:19,500 S2: there's a couple more that that the book talks about. 75 00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:21,779 S2: So we're out there speaking on it. And we were 76 00:04:21,779 --> 00:04:25,539 S2: doing a planning day one day. And the facilitator said, 77 00:04:25,540 --> 00:04:28,099 S2: when you guys go speak on changes that heal, what 78 00:04:28,100 --> 00:04:31,860 S2: are all the questions about? And we started laughing. We 79 00:04:31,860 --> 00:04:35,339 S2: said all the questions are about boundaries. And he said, 80 00:04:35,339 --> 00:04:37,740 S2: why don't you write a book on boundaries? And literally, Chris, 81 00:04:37,740 --> 00:04:40,780 S2: I remember this moment. I said, that is a good 82 00:04:40,779 --> 00:04:43,860 S2: idea because we wrote this book. Then we wouldn't have 83 00:04:43,860 --> 00:04:46,220 S2: to answer the questions anymore and we wouldn't have to 84 00:04:46,260 --> 00:04:49,500 S2: talk about this again. Literally. Yeah. 85 00:04:49,540 --> 00:04:53,980 S1: Right. Yeah. And look at look at what happened after that. Yeah. Okay. So, 86 00:04:54,010 --> 00:04:57,970 S1: So tell me an email. Tell me a tell me 87 00:04:58,010 --> 00:05:00,490 S1: a phone call you got. Or you were given a 88 00:05:00,490 --> 00:05:03,970 S1: seminar and and somebody came up to you and said something, 89 00:05:03,970 --> 00:05:06,770 S1: and it took your breath away about reading that book 90 00:05:06,810 --> 00:05:08,010 S1: and making a change. 91 00:05:10,170 --> 00:05:15,290 S2: I think maybe one of the most impactful things that 92 00:05:15,290 --> 00:05:18,529 S2: anybody ever said. And I mean, this just hit me 93 00:05:18,529 --> 00:05:25,089 S2: to my core was this, this probably 18, 19 year 94 00:05:25,089 --> 00:05:29,529 S2: old girl, woman, young woman walks up to me. I 95 00:05:29,570 --> 00:05:33,690 S2: was speaking, um, actually was at women of Faith. And 96 00:05:33,690 --> 00:05:36,970 S2: she comes up and she says, I want to thank you. 97 00:05:37,089 --> 00:05:40,609 S2: And I said, really? For what? She said, for giving 98 00:05:40,610 --> 00:05:45,450 S2: me a father. I said, how in the world did 99 00:05:45,450 --> 00:05:49,490 S2: I give you a father? And she said, well, all 100 00:05:49,529 --> 00:05:54,409 S2: of my growing up, my father was an alcoholic and 101 00:05:54,410 --> 00:05:58,289 S2: he was toxic and abusive and all that. And my 102 00:05:58,290 --> 00:06:04,969 S2: mother read boundaries, and she started doing the boundaries that 103 00:06:04,970 --> 00:06:09,970 S2: the book says do. And it forced him to go 104 00:06:09,970 --> 00:06:14,650 S2: into recovery. He came to Jesus. He turned into a 105 00:06:14,650 --> 00:06:18,890 S2: different person. And for the last however many years, six, seven, 106 00:06:18,890 --> 00:06:22,930 S2: eight years of my life at home, I had a 107 00:06:22,930 --> 00:06:26,250 S2: father because of that book. Wow. 108 00:06:27,050 --> 00:06:30,250 S1: There's nothing better than that. I mean, to to see 109 00:06:30,570 --> 00:06:33,890 S1: to see real change in somebody else. And you have 110 00:06:33,890 --> 00:06:36,890 S1: to look at that and say, well, that's that's not me. 111 00:06:36,930 --> 00:06:40,169 S1: I mean, you wrote the book, but that's that's something 112 00:06:40,170 --> 00:06:41,610 S1: bigger than you, right? 113 00:06:42,850 --> 00:06:46,050 S2: Oh, of course. I mean, I didn't I didn't invent 114 00:06:46,450 --> 00:06:52,680 S2: or John didn't invent boundaries. It what, what we did was, 115 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,480 S2: you know, at that time the, uh, quote, Christian psychology 116 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,880 S2: was just starting to really make it into the church. 117 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,760 S2: And you had a lot of gatekeepers and big pastors 118 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,840 S2: anti counseling, secular humanism, all this sort of stuff. And 119 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:13,640 S2: recovery was coming into the church. And, and so what, 120 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,200 S2: what we were trying to do was just not only 121 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,160 S2: show what boundaries are and why they're essential to mental 122 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:25,600 S2: health and relationship functioning and performance. But wait a minute, guys. 123 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:31,160 S2: This is all in the Bible. And so many Christians 124 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:38,160 S2: had been taught one half of God's map of life 125 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,680 S2: because it's his nature. God is about love, and he's 126 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,880 S2: about righteousness and and the way that love is supposed 127 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,400 S2: to be structured, the expectations and the rules that make 128 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,600 S2: love work. And they had been taught be loving and 129 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,720 S2: kind and forgiving and patient and long suffering, and people 130 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,040 S2: were just getting beat up in the process and used 131 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,480 S2: trying to be a good Christian and be selfless. But 132 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,880 S2: the other side of the scriptures tell them how love 133 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:11,040 S2: without limits is license, and the scriptures teach that God 134 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,600 S2: is a God of grace and truth. So what we 135 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,600 S2: did was we just tried to show them. There's no 136 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,360 S2: verse in the Bible that says, blessed are the doormats, 137 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,960 S2: for they shall inherit the heels. That's not in there. 138 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,200 S2: The Bible says, in our love you have to have 139 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,520 S2: boundaries and limits or it's going to get perverted and poisoned. 140 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,400 S1: Yes. And that has been revolutionary for a lot of people. 141 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,440 S1: And I can't tell you how many times on this 142 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,000 S1: program and others that I will hear that. Well, you know, 143 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,320 S1: in the book boundaries. And then I quote this, what 144 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,280 S1: I love about what you've done here in this new book, 145 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,510 S1: which is a 90 day devotional. It's an invitation to 146 00:08:51,550 --> 00:08:54,190 S1: come to God as you are is you're kind of 147 00:08:54,230 --> 00:08:57,830 S1: pulling back the curtain. And as I read it, it's 148 00:08:57,830 --> 00:09:01,589 S1: almost a cathartic look at your own spiritual journey, going 149 00:09:01,590 --> 00:09:04,550 S1: back through all of the stages of your life, the changes, 150 00:09:04,550 --> 00:09:08,070 S1: the spark of faith, God kind of breaking through the clouds, 151 00:09:08,070 --> 00:09:10,670 S1: if I can use that, and I want you to 152 00:09:10,670 --> 00:09:12,790 S1: talk about that, let me take our break. And if 153 00:09:12,790 --> 00:09:18,350 S1: you want to talk with Doctor Henry. Cloud (877) 548-3675 is 154 00:09:18,350 --> 00:09:23,309 S1: our number. He has written to know him a 90 155 00:09:23,350 --> 00:09:26,230 S1: day invitation to come to God as you are. It's 156 00:09:26,230 --> 00:09:31,390 S1: our featured resource at the website. Chris, talk more straight 157 00:09:31,390 --> 00:09:44,550 S1: ahead on Moody Radio. Doctor Henry Cloud is with us 158 00:09:44,550 --> 00:09:47,030 S1: today at the back fence. Thanks a lot for joining us. 159 00:09:47,630 --> 00:09:51,790 S1: last year, he wrote a book titled why I believe, 160 00:09:51,790 --> 00:09:55,470 S1: which was kind of a personal story of faith and 161 00:09:55,830 --> 00:09:58,990 S1: what he was seeing in the field of psychology as 162 00:09:58,990 --> 00:10:03,510 S1: far as miracles and science and suffering. And he's followed 163 00:10:03,510 --> 00:10:08,150 S1: that up with a book that arrested my attention to 164 00:10:08,190 --> 00:10:10,750 S1: know him, a 90 day invitation to come to God 165 00:10:10,750 --> 00:10:13,870 S1: as you are. Doctor Henry Cloud is with us. So 166 00:10:13,870 --> 00:10:17,310 S1: I mentioned before, uh, it feels to me this is 167 00:10:17,309 --> 00:10:20,350 S1: kind of a look back at your spiritual journey. And 168 00:10:20,350 --> 00:10:23,390 S1: almost as you take us back, you know, there's very 169 00:10:23,390 --> 00:10:27,670 S1: early story when you were four years old and further on, 170 00:10:27,990 --> 00:10:31,270 S1: but of all the changes, the sparks of faith that 171 00:10:31,270 --> 00:10:34,110 S1: you felt that God was kind of breaking through to you, 172 00:10:34,110 --> 00:10:35,470 S1: is that what this is? 173 00:10:37,870 --> 00:10:41,350 S2: That's what it ended up being. You know, Chris, you 174 00:10:41,350 --> 00:10:45,750 S2: have a vision for a book and it obviously goes 175 00:10:45,820 --> 00:10:49,300 S2: down that path, but then so much emerges in the process. 176 00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:52,660 S2: What actually happened in in the book that this came from, 177 00:10:52,660 --> 00:10:56,300 S2: which is why I believe was for a long time 178 00:10:56,300 --> 00:11:01,340 S2: I have so many non-Christian friends and, you know, in, 179 00:11:01,380 --> 00:11:05,540 S2: in business, in, in our circle of friends in Los 180 00:11:05,540 --> 00:11:08,620 S2: Angeles and just so many people that they know I'm 181 00:11:08,620 --> 00:11:12,740 S2: one of those weirdos, but they kind of put that 182 00:11:12,740 --> 00:11:16,260 S2: aside because in today's world, if you're a Christian, that 183 00:11:16,260 --> 00:11:17,860 S2: a lot of stuff gets added to that and they 184 00:11:17,860 --> 00:11:19,620 S2: put you in a lot of boxes, you know, and 185 00:11:19,620 --> 00:11:25,339 S2: they kind of think you're strange. And so that conversation 186 00:11:25,340 --> 00:11:28,340 S2: is really hard to have with some people. It's divisive. 187 00:11:28,380 --> 00:11:32,260 S2: You know, people see this in extended families and workplace 188 00:11:32,260 --> 00:11:35,260 S2: and all of that. But it just was bugging me. 189 00:11:35,300 --> 00:11:37,100 S2: You know, I talked to people about my faith, but 190 00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:40,140 S2: there's some that it just wasn't an easy conversation to 191 00:11:40,140 --> 00:11:42,460 S2: enter into. And I just got to the point where 192 00:11:42,460 --> 00:11:46,380 S2: I said, dad, Gummit, this is this is really bothered me. 193 00:11:46,380 --> 00:11:49,939 S2: I want them to know why I believe this stuff 194 00:11:49,940 --> 00:11:52,660 S2: that they think is so crazy. And so the book 195 00:11:52,660 --> 00:11:55,980 S2: was really written, the working title was To My Friends, 196 00:11:56,700 --> 00:11:59,300 S2: and that's how I wrote it. And as we went 197 00:11:59,300 --> 00:12:02,219 S2: through it, it turned into, well, you know, this is 198 00:12:02,220 --> 00:12:05,980 S2: really why I believe and and Chris, you're talking about the, 199 00:12:06,140 --> 00:12:10,020 S2: the personal part of it. Um, I can't, I couldn't get, 200 00:12:10,220 --> 00:12:11,660 S2: you know, I couldn't tell people why I believe in 201 00:12:11,660 --> 00:12:15,060 S2: God without telling them, you know, I was blind and 202 00:12:15,059 --> 00:12:18,620 S2: now I see guys, this is what happened. So I 203 00:12:18,620 --> 00:12:20,219 S2: really had to start, you know, it's a little bit 204 00:12:20,220 --> 00:12:23,420 S2: like Moses said in Deuteronomy six. He said, in the future, 205 00:12:23,420 --> 00:12:25,420 S2: when your children ask you, what's the meaning of all 206 00:12:25,420 --> 00:12:29,500 S2: this religious stuff? He said, tell them this. We were 207 00:12:29,500 --> 00:12:32,780 S2: slaves in Egypt. God brought us out with a mighty 208 00:12:32,820 --> 00:12:35,700 S2: hand and signs and wonders, and then he gave us 209 00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:39,180 S2: these ways so that we might always walk in them 210 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:44,970 S2: and we would prosper. And that's really. I didn't plan 211 00:12:44,970 --> 00:12:47,929 S2: it that way, but I just told my story. And 212 00:12:48,370 --> 00:12:50,250 S2: I was a slave in Egypt. You know, I hit 213 00:12:50,250 --> 00:12:59,370 S2: bottom with with terrible, non-functional depression in college. And, I mean, 214 00:12:59,410 --> 00:13:02,929 S2: I took a semester off, and and it's a long story. 215 00:13:02,929 --> 00:13:04,610 S2: The whole thing is in the book. But I reached 216 00:13:04,610 --> 00:13:09,210 S2: out to God and he did some miracles that really 217 00:13:09,210 --> 00:13:11,170 S2: proved to me that he was real. And then I 218 00:13:11,170 --> 00:13:15,050 S2: chronicled those throughout the last, you know, decades. Some of 219 00:13:15,050 --> 00:13:18,090 S2: the miracles that I've experienced and know that he's real. 220 00:13:18,530 --> 00:13:20,850 S2: But then that brought up a lot of questions, you know, 221 00:13:20,890 --> 00:13:24,530 S2: all the big intellectual quandaries. And so the book talks 222 00:13:24,530 --> 00:13:28,730 S2: about how God answered those big questions for me, and 223 00:13:28,970 --> 00:13:31,610 S2: then all the sciences and all that. But then the 224 00:13:31,610 --> 00:13:33,929 S2: last section is there's one area of science where I 225 00:13:33,929 --> 00:13:37,610 S2: can actually claim real expertise, and that's how the science 226 00:13:37,610 --> 00:13:40,850 S2: of psychology proved the Bible to be true for me. 227 00:13:41,250 --> 00:13:45,840 S2: And that's how it ended up being a spiritual memoir, 228 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,840 S2: if you will, because, um, it's it's all of it 229 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,720 S2: is true. This stuff really happened. Guys, you can explain 230 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,320 S2: it away if you want to, but I've seen this 231 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:58,160 S2: for real. 232 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,520 S1: That really did come through, especially with your care and 233 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,640 S1: your concern for the people who don't get, you know, Christianity. Uh, 234 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,640 S1: and we'll talk about that. But but back up when 235 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:12,199 S1: you hit bottom, do you think you would have done 236 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,120 S1: what you've done with your life, or God would have 237 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,480 S1: done what he has done with your life and through 238 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,520 S1: your life if you hadn't gone through that rock bottom depression? 239 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,880 S2: Oh gosh, no way, no way. In fact, if I 240 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:32,160 S2: had tried to do it, I would have been doing 241 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,280 S2: what a lot of people do. They go out and help, 242 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,160 S2: try to help people and give advice. Is their only 243 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,240 S2: teaching them out of their own dysfunctional patterns. You know, 244 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,440 S2: you see that in a lot of a lot of 245 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:49,840 S2: Christian material. The people that that are given advice, really, 246 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,120 S2: there's nothing wrong with, with with being a helper if 247 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,920 S2: you've never hit bottom, as long as you understand the 248 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,960 S2: principles that apply to people who've actually hit bottom, and 249 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,720 S2: you're not just given pat answers that don't go all 250 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,120 S2: the way to the bottom of the well, and God 251 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,200 S2: goes to the bottom of the well. And you need 252 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,240 S2: to understand how it works when there's nothing this person 253 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,080 S2: can do. You know, it's like it's like they're drowning 254 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,400 S2: in a pool and they're made out of water, and 255 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,760 S2: the latter's made out of water. I mean, there's no 256 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,239 S2: that's how I felt. There's no way out of this hole. 257 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,800 S2: And so if I hadn't gone through it and and, 258 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,760 S2: you know, I wasn't headed down this path, that was 259 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,750 S2: an I was an accounting and finance major in college. 260 00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:41,550 S2: And then it was playing. 261 00:15:41,550 --> 00:15:42,830 S1: Golf too, weren't you? 262 00:15:43,150 --> 00:15:46,030 S2: Yeah, I was recruited to play golf in college, and 263 00:15:46,030 --> 00:15:49,310 S2: then I. I had a hand injury and wasn't playing well, 264 00:15:49,310 --> 00:15:51,710 S2: and the pain was bad. It was just awful. And 265 00:15:51,710 --> 00:15:53,750 S2: I struggled with it. And then finally I had to 266 00:15:53,790 --> 00:15:56,310 S2: quit because of the pain. And and that's when I 267 00:15:56,350 --> 00:16:01,270 S2: hit bottom. And if what happened, I didn't I didn't 268 00:16:01,270 --> 00:16:05,590 S2: know anything about psychology. I was a business major. And 269 00:16:05,590 --> 00:16:10,390 S2: then God told me to change my major and go 270 00:16:10,390 --> 00:16:15,150 S2: into psychology. And that's how it happened. I had no clue. 271 00:16:15,630 --> 00:16:22,350 S1: When you say God told you to do that, was it? Uh, Mr. Cloud, 272 00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:25,950 S1: doctor cloud, go change your. He didn't speak to you 273 00:16:25,950 --> 00:16:28,190 S1: that way. It's just he moved you that way, right? 274 00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:29,110 S1: Explain that. 275 00:16:29,230 --> 00:16:32,790 S2: No, I didn't I did not hear an audible voice. Um, 276 00:16:33,150 --> 00:16:36,230 S2: what happened was, um, as I was going through the 277 00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:39,590 S2: process now, God did do some things that were supernatural 278 00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:44,190 S2: that helped me get out of the hole. But but 279 00:16:44,190 --> 00:16:47,310 S2: what started happening was I was I was in the 280 00:16:47,310 --> 00:16:49,150 S2: faith in a deep way. For the first time, I 281 00:16:49,150 --> 00:16:55,670 S2: was getting discipled by some really, really great guys from, uh, 282 00:16:55,670 --> 00:16:59,150 S2: Dallas Seminary and Young Life, mainly. And, and at that time, 283 00:16:59,150 --> 00:17:04,750 S2: Campus Crusade. And God just surrounded me with this, these mentors. 284 00:17:05,390 --> 00:17:10,550 S2: And so I was really, really into deep theological studies 285 00:17:11,390 --> 00:17:14,389 S2: and I got really interested in it. But I was 286 00:17:14,390 --> 00:17:16,710 S2: also trying to climb out of this hole. So I 287 00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:19,830 S2: was reading a lot of, a lot of a lot 288 00:17:19,869 --> 00:17:23,109 S2: of stuff about, you know, how depression is resolved and 289 00:17:23,109 --> 00:17:25,869 S2: anxiety and all of that stuff. And so I'm, I'm 290 00:17:26,590 --> 00:17:29,510 S2: going deep into this stuff. And then something started to 291 00:17:29,510 --> 00:17:33,310 S2: happen in me about the psychology that I was just 292 00:17:33,310 --> 00:17:36,939 S2: pulled towards it and at the same time as I 293 00:17:36,940 --> 00:17:39,940 S2: was pulled toward it, towards it, I kept seeing everything 294 00:17:39,940 --> 00:17:41,899 S2: that I was learning in the Bible right in the 295 00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:45,180 S2: midst of it. And it started to seem like, wait 296 00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:49,420 S2: a minute, these aren't two things, you know, they're they 297 00:17:49,420 --> 00:17:50,900 S2: used to say, if you have an emotional problem, you'll 298 00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:53,020 S2: see the Christian psychologist, you have a spiritual problem. You 299 00:17:53,060 --> 00:17:56,340 S2: see the pastor. That's just a stupid idea. I mean, 300 00:17:56,380 --> 00:17:59,260 S2: if our spiritual life isn't affecting our emotional life and 301 00:17:59,260 --> 00:18:02,020 S2: our relational life, then what is it? There's one gospel 302 00:18:03,020 --> 00:18:06,140 S2: that was going to fix this fall. And so that 303 00:18:06,140 --> 00:18:09,100 S2: started to emerge. And as I got deeper into this, 304 00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:13,140 S2: then literally, you know, first Peter says, speak to one 305 00:18:13,140 --> 00:18:15,740 S2: another as if you're speaking the very words of God. 306 00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:22,420 S2: And people started to, in various settings out of the blue, 307 00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:26,420 S2: tell me you have a gift for this. You should 308 00:18:26,420 --> 00:18:30,540 S2: go into psychology. And I mean more than a couple 309 00:18:30,859 --> 00:18:37,660 S2: in very many random Circles. And then one guy did 310 00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:40,940 S2: walk up to me as a stranger and and give 311 00:18:40,940 --> 00:18:43,260 S2: me a prophecy one day. I mean, that was the 312 00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:46,780 S2: first one of those I'd ever had, but it was 313 00:18:46,780 --> 00:18:51,180 S2: very clear that and I could feel it inside that 314 00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:53,460 S2: God was telling me to go do this. And so 315 00:18:53,460 --> 00:18:56,620 S2: I changed my major. And Abraham left her not knowing 316 00:18:56,619 --> 00:18:59,300 S2: where he was going. I understand that feeling. 317 00:18:59,940 --> 00:19:03,300 S1: That's Doctor Henry Cloud. His new book is to know 318 00:19:03,340 --> 00:19:07,500 S1: him a 90 day invitation to come to God as 319 00:19:07,500 --> 00:19:10,060 S1: you are. If you go to the website, click through 320 00:19:10,060 --> 00:19:17,700 S1: today's information. You will see it right there. Chris Fabry Livorno. Chris. Livorno. Okay, 321 00:19:17,740 --> 00:19:20,940 S1: so you mentioned this spark that's on the that's on 322 00:19:20,940 --> 00:19:24,900 S1: the inside. You just knew something. That same thing happened 323 00:19:24,900 --> 00:19:26,700 S1: to you and one of the devotions that you give 324 00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:30,300 S1: here back in North Carolina, you were ten years old. 325 00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:34,530 S1: You were at camp. It wasn't a great hyper Christian camp. 326 00:19:34,530 --> 00:19:37,450 S1: It was more of a sports thing. What happened when 327 00:19:37,450 --> 00:19:39,010 S1: you were ten was Christian. 328 00:19:39,050 --> 00:19:40,890 S2: It was Christian. There were a lot of guys there 329 00:19:40,890 --> 00:19:45,450 S2: from FCA, for example. But it wasn't like a, you know, 330 00:19:45,490 --> 00:19:48,050 S2: you see these church camps where it's all Bible all 331 00:19:48,050 --> 00:19:52,250 S2: the time. These were, these were it was a Christian camp, 332 00:19:52,570 --> 00:19:58,689 S2: strong Christian, you know, undergirding. And there were devotionals, but 333 00:19:58,690 --> 00:20:01,490 S2: it was really about, you know, horseback riding and golf 334 00:20:01,490 --> 00:20:04,730 S2: and tennis and wrestling and, and and learning to be 335 00:20:04,770 --> 00:20:08,530 S2: a marksman. And it was a great camp. Great camp. 336 00:20:08,530 --> 00:20:10,650 S2: But that is that is where I was. Yeah. 337 00:20:12,810 --> 00:20:15,570 S1: Okay. I gotta ask you a question. Do you have 338 00:20:15,570 --> 00:20:19,850 S1: really dirty floors there in the office where you are? 339 00:20:20,050 --> 00:20:22,850 S1: Because all I can hear is that vacuum cleaner, or 340 00:20:22,890 --> 00:20:24,690 S1: is that a vacuum cleaner that I'm hearing? 341 00:20:25,730 --> 00:20:26,890 S3: Are you kidding me? 342 00:20:27,050 --> 00:20:29,250 S2: I've never been on an interview, and somebody asked me 343 00:20:29,250 --> 00:20:32,530 S2: if my floors are dirty. This is awesome, Chris. I 344 00:20:32,570 --> 00:20:35,970 S2: can see why you have such a broad reach. Yeah, 345 00:20:35,970 --> 00:20:38,850 S2: but don't start asking me about my underwear. I mean, 346 00:20:39,090 --> 00:20:40,770 S2: I've never heard that question. 347 00:20:40,930 --> 00:20:44,970 S1: Hi. Well, we go deep here. We go deep here. Henry. 348 00:20:45,970 --> 00:20:49,010 S2: I think. All right, now, you know, you just made 349 00:20:49,010 --> 00:20:50,330 S2: this real buddy, so. 350 00:20:51,010 --> 00:20:53,730 S1: He's standing up. All right, here he goes. He's standing 351 00:20:53,730 --> 00:20:55,810 S1: up and he's walking over. And he's going to find 352 00:20:55,810 --> 00:20:58,609 S1: out where this, because I can hear it. Maybe. Maybe 353 00:20:58,650 --> 00:21:00,889 S1: he can't hear it. And maybe you at home can't 354 00:21:00,890 --> 00:21:03,250 S1: hear it, but I'm hearing it, and I'm thinking I 355 00:21:03,250 --> 00:21:05,770 S1: need to go to that vacuum cleaner company and ask 356 00:21:05,770 --> 00:21:11,969 S1: them to to jump on and sponsor the program. So, uh, 357 00:21:11,970 --> 00:21:14,930 S1: maybe it was maybe it was coming from down the hall. Okay. 358 00:21:14,970 --> 00:21:18,690 S1: All right. If you go to Chris for us, you 359 00:21:18,730 --> 00:21:21,929 S1: will see more about Doctor Henry Cloud. And while I 360 00:21:21,930 --> 00:21:24,890 S1: have just a moment while he's down the hall, let 361 00:21:24,890 --> 00:21:28,810 S1: me tell you that, um, if you are celebrating the 362 00:21:28,810 --> 00:21:33,040 S1: incarnation this year. Carenet wants to help you find a 363 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,000 S1: way to slow down and really contemplate the mercy and 364 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,280 S1: grace of God. Karen is the pro Abundant Life ministry 365 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:45,359 S1: that has a free devotional titled Praying Through Advent available 366 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,800 S1: to you. They're celebrating 50 years this year and they 367 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,880 S1: are in the life change business, walking with women and 368 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,560 S1: men who are going through an unexpected pregnancy. This devotional 369 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,400 S1: will remind you God meets us in our uncertainty. He 370 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,919 S1: wants to write redemption into your story. If you go 371 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,400 S1: to Chris Dot and click the Green Connect link, you 372 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,720 S1: can download praying through advent right there Chris Fabry live. 373 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,840 S1: Experience the wonder of God's greatest story and join in 374 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,800 S1: praying for life and hope through him. Click the green 375 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:25,160 S1: link at Chris Fabry Live. All right, so, Doctor Claude, 376 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,439 S1: did you get that figured out? What's going on there? 377 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,640 S2: You know what we think it is? It was, uh, 378 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,040 S2: one of those blowers outside at a neighbor's house. 379 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,160 S1: Okay. Uh, you mean like a leaf blower? 380 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,040 S2: Yeah. Now, I could go tell him that the Chris 381 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,000 S2: wants that blower off, but I don't know. 382 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,520 S1: You gotta give, uh, off when we. When we go 383 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,800 S1: into a break, I'll give. You can give Ryan McConaughey the, uh, 384 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,160 S1: the number to the company, and he'll he'll call him. 385 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,720 S1: He'll send in a request. Uh, but it's fine. It's fine. Now, 386 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,600 S1: I just got a little louder, uh, just a minute ago, 387 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,480 S1: but I. I was so enamored with that. I didn't 388 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,080 S1: hear your, uh, answer to that last question about when 389 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,639 S1: you were ten years old. At the, uh, at the camp. 390 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,560 S2: Um, I was just out on a walk one day, 391 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,600 S2: I think I was walking back from the golf course, 392 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,520 S2: and there was this, uh, you know, it's kind of 393 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,119 S2: like a big pasture, you know, up in the mountains 394 00:23:28,230 --> 00:23:32,710 S2: in North Carolina. And there's a little chapel kind of 395 00:23:32,750 --> 00:23:36,949 S2: at the end of it. And I remember, I remember 396 00:23:36,990 --> 00:23:40,109 S2: it's kind of like if it's almost like if you 397 00:23:40,109 --> 00:23:42,590 S2: would see it in a movie the way they do 398 00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:48,550 S2: special effects. But there was just this, this warm pull 399 00:23:50,030 --> 00:23:54,030 S2: towards that church. And I walked out of that chapel, 400 00:23:54,030 --> 00:23:56,670 S2: and I don't know how to describe it other than 401 00:23:57,310 --> 00:24:01,750 S2: that's what it was. I felt drawn. And then as 402 00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:07,510 S2: I went into the church, I could feel being without words. 403 00:24:07,510 --> 00:24:11,909 S2: I could just feel like being opened up and spoken 404 00:24:11,910 --> 00:24:17,710 S2: to and loved in some sort of way. It's hard 405 00:24:17,710 --> 00:24:20,790 S2: to describe, and I just remember at that moment I 406 00:24:20,790 --> 00:24:24,830 S2: just said, God, I, I want to do what you 407 00:24:24,830 --> 00:24:26,710 S2: want me to do. I'll do what you want me 408 00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:29,100 S2: to do this kind of all. That's ten years old. 409 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:31,859 S2: I didn't know what it would mean later, but. But 410 00:24:31,859 --> 00:24:34,740 S2: it was very powerful. I remember it to today. 411 00:24:36,060 --> 00:24:38,940 S1: It just had the experience of the Red sea party. 412 00:24:40,220 --> 00:24:42,700 S1: I just feel like the Red sea just party. Because 413 00:24:42,740 --> 00:24:44,939 S1: when you were telling that story. Because they'll hear you. 414 00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:48,060 S1: But I was still hearing that, you know, that leaf blower. 415 00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:53,659 S1: And now it's like it's clear. This is almost you've almost, uh, 416 00:24:53,660 --> 00:24:57,580 S1: illustrated exactly what you were talking about. There's noise. There's 417 00:24:57,580 --> 00:25:00,939 S1: noise in your life. There's somebody listening today. There's noise 418 00:25:00,940 --> 00:25:03,580 S1: in your life. Here we go. And you cannot hear 419 00:25:03,580 --> 00:25:07,220 S1: the the Spirit of God talking to you. And and 420 00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:11,540 S1: finally he breaks the cloud and he moves that. And 421 00:25:11,540 --> 00:25:14,900 S1: he makes things so that you can hear what he wants. 422 00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:17,940 S1: That's what Doctor Henry Cloud wants in your life. And 423 00:25:17,940 --> 00:25:20,020 S1: it's why he's written this book. To know him. A 424 00:25:20,020 --> 00:25:22,860 S1: 90 day invitation to come to God as you are. 425 00:25:23,140 --> 00:25:25,980 S1: You do not have to clean yourself up in order 426 00:25:25,980 --> 00:25:28,699 S1: to come to him to be acceptable to him. As 427 00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:31,580 S1: a matter of fact, he did what you could not 428 00:25:31,580 --> 00:25:35,139 S1: do for you so that you could be empowered to 429 00:25:35,180 --> 00:25:38,060 S1: live for him in His strength and his power. Boy 430 00:25:38,060 --> 00:25:42,020 S1: that'll preach. And, doctor, we got all the leaves out 431 00:25:42,060 --> 00:25:44,699 S1: of the way and leaves. And so we're going to 432 00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:48,340 S1: talk more with Doctor Henry Cloud when we return from 433 00:25:48,340 --> 00:25:51,740 S1: this break. This is Chris Fabry live on Moody Radio. 434 00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:08,580 S1: Special guest today at the radio. Backyard fences, doctor Henry Cloud, 435 00:26:08,780 --> 00:26:12,619 S1: the doctor Henry Cloud, New York Times best selling author 436 00:26:12,619 --> 00:26:16,660 S1: of boundaries. He's written a devotional to know him, a 437 00:26:16,660 --> 00:26:19,780 S1: 90 day invitation to come to God as you are. 438 00:26:20,740 --> 00:26:24,250 S1: And I want to ask you, Doctor Cloud, the At 439 00:26:24,250 --> 00:26:27,090 S1: the start of the book, you describe the family that 440 00:26:27,090 --> 00:26:31,450 S1: you grew up in, where faith was their God. You 441 00:26:31,450 --> 00:26:36,730 S1: believed in God, but it was a quiet faith, meaningful 442 00:26:36,730 --> 00:26:40,050 S1: but still quiet. How did the example of your parents 443 00:26:40,090 --> 00:26:45,490 S1: living out their faith, particularly through service to others, shape you? 444 00:26:47,690 --> 00:26:49,889 S2: Well, I think part of the shaping was that, you know, 445 00:26:49,930 --> 00:26:53,090 S2: there was no doubt that there was, you know, my 446 00:26:53,090 --> 00:26:56,170 S2: parents were Christians. I mean, we were in church every Sunday. 447 00:26:56,210 --> 00:26:58,810 S2: My mother kept the get this, who can you find 448 00:26:58,810 --> 00:27:03,050 S2: to do this today? She kept the infant toddler nursery 449 00:27:03,490 --> 00:27:10,490 S2: for the, you know, church hour for 25 years every Sunday. 450 00:27:11,090 --> 00:27:14,930 S2: The infants and toddlers. Can you imagine that? And and 451 00:27:14,930 --> 00:27:18,570 S2: my father, you know, he'd go to Tuesday morning, um, 452 00:27:19,530 --> 00:27:23,210 S2: men's Bible breakfast. And he would always take me when 453 00:27:23,210 --> 00:27:25,890 S2: I was so church was always in the background, but 454 00:27:25,890 --> 00:27:27,969 S2: they weren't ballistic about it. You know, people say, did 455 00:27:27,970 --> 00:27:29,689 S2: you grow up in a Christian home? I think of 456 00:27:29,690 --> 00:27:32,490 S2: what that means today, where you got Bible verses all 457 00:27:32,490 --> 00:27:35,330 S2: over the walls and, you know, all this kind of 458 00:27:35,369 --> 00:27:40,130 S2: in-home stuff. And my parents were, you know, they were 459 00:27:40,130 --> 00:27:47,490 S2: just really good southern, old time Methodist people. But they 460 00:27:47,530 --> 00:27:51,370 S2: gave a lot by that. We had a family business, 461 00:27:51,369 --> 00:27:56,409 S2: and they really served the poor and served, um, the city. 462 00:27:56,850 --> 00:28:00,290 S2: And my father was head of the Salvation Army, and 463 00:28:00,290 --> 00:28:03,090 S2: they did Meals on Wheels. My mother always had two 464 00:28:03,130 --> 00:28:07,929 S2: widows in her life that she would literally take care 465 00:28:07,930 --> 00:28:10,770 S2: of and make me go visit each one of them 466 00:28:10,770 --> 00:28:14,610 S2: each week and stuff like that. I mean, they they 467 00:28:14,609 --> 00:28:17,970 S2: just gave a lot. My dad did a lot for 468 00:28:18,010 --> 00:28:20,730 S2: this was back in Mississippi in the you know, I 469 00:28:20,770 --> 00:28:24,720 S2: grew up in the 60s and, um, you know, things 470 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,080 S2: were different then, and he was really involved in the 471 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:35,320 S2: black churches in town and black businesses, and, um, that's 472 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,760 S2: just how they lived. But they weren't. You didn't get, 473 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,959 S2: you know, wouldn't feel like, oh, I'm going to the 474 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,040 S2: Baptist household where everything is, you know, kind of a 475 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,040 S2: little whatever. And so that left me in a little 476 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,520 S2: bit of a quandary, though, because my I really believed 477 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:56,080 S2: from when I was little, but I, I didn't, you know, 478 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,680 S2: I couldn't identify with the church crowd because there was 479 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,360 S2: a church crowd and they didn't go to the school 480 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,880 S2: dances or the proms or, you know, play golf on 481 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:07,920 S2: Sunday and all this kind of stuff. And my family 482 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,600 S2: wasn't like that at all. And so I couldn't really 483 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,280 S2: connect with the Christians. I used to think, you know, God, 484 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,320 S2: I like you. I just don't like your friends. You know, 485 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:20,280 S2: they're weird. And so I couldn't connect with that group. 486 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,920 S2: And my friends were more like, you know, the normal 487 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,920 S2: kids and teenagers from families that weren't very Christian, but 488 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,520 S2: I wasn't as bad as the bad ones, and I 489 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,320 S2: wasn't as good as the good ones. And I kind 490 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,760 S2: of in this middle ground. So I had kind of 491 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,760 S2: a private faith. And but I would talk to people 492 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,840 S2: here and there, but it, it that's where I was. 493 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,280 S2: That's kind of how I grew up. 494 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,320 S1: So how do you then bridge the gap? How do 495 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,280 S1: you how do you come to know God? How come 496 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,640 S1: as you are and take steps to get into that, 497 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,720 S1: that deeper spiritual life that you're talking about? 498 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,320 S2: You know, it's interesting when you were given the intro 499 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,280 S2: and you were talking about come as you are and 500 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,320 S2: to know him and how to know him, I, I 501 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:14,760 S2: was reminded of when Jesus said that we're to love 502 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:20,110 S2: God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength. 503 00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:25,469 S2: And a lot of times it. I think people's not 504 00:30:25,470 --> 00:30:28,630 S2: feeling like they know him as deeply as they want 505 00:30:28,670 --> 00:30:34,510 S2: to know him is because they're knowing him from just 506 00:30:34,510 --> 00:30:40,310 S2: a part of them of themselves. And sometimes the parts 507 00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:43,550 S2: that would make us know him better are the parts 508 00:30:43,550 --> 00:30:46,670 S2: that people are actually cut off from. I was cut 509 00:30:46,670 --> 00:30:50,190 S2: off from a lot of trauma, from a lot of 510 00:30:50,190 --> 00:30:54,270 S2: pain from, you know, a lot of hurt, a lot 511 00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:58,350 S2: of stuff inside because I was I was performing. You know, 512 00:30:58,350 --> 00:31:01,710 S2: I was an athlete and and I was just always 513 00:31:01,710 --> 00:31:03,750 S2: trying to get better and, you know, win the next 514 00:31:03,750 --> 00:31:06,950 S2: tournament or whatever. But it wasn't until I hit bottom 515 00:31:06,950 --> 00:31:11,590 S2: and I, I had no choice. I was thrown into 516 00:31:12,030 --> 00:31:17,870 S2: this stuff that lies underneath and, and that's we have 517 00:31:17,870 --> 00:31:23,110 S2: to come to God with all of us, all parts 518 00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:26,350 S2: of us. And sometimes we have to ask him. Like 519 00:31:26,350 --> 00:31:29,430 S2: David said in Psalm 139, you know, search my heart. 520 00:31:29,470 --> 00:31:31,390 S2: Show me where are the hurtful ways in me? I 521 00:31:31,390 --> 00:31:34,350 S2: don't even know. But then most of the time, life 522 00:31:34,350 --> 00:31:36,950 S2: will give us some kind of clue that there's something 523 00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:39,590 S2: going on down there that we need to deal with, 524 00:31:40,350 --> 00:31:42,390 S2: and we need to know God with all of us. 525 00:31:42,390 --> 00:31:44,990 S2: But to do that, we gotta ask him to help 526 00:31:44,990 --> 00:31:48,150 S2: us find all of us. We don't find God out 527 00:31:48,150 --> 00:31:51,910 S2: of our strengths. That's not where you find God. He 528 00:31:51,910 --> 00:31:54,270 S2: came to seek and to save that which was lost. 529 00:31:54,270 --> 00:31:57,830 S2: And save means heal in the in the Greek and 530 00:31:57,830 --> 00:32:00,750 S2: lost means broken beyond repair. There's nothing you can do 531 00:32:00,750 --> 00:32:03,830 S2: about it. God wants the parts of you that need 532 00:32:03,870 --> 00:32:09,710 S2: fixing that you can't fix for yourself. That's the beginning. 533 00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:13,870 S1: I really resonate with that, that whole performance idea, because 534 00:32:13,870 --> 00:32:16,300 S1: I think a lot of people are there and I've. 535 00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:19,220 S1: I've been through it too. It's like you're. If you 536 00:32:19,220 --> 00:32:23,340 S1: perform well for God, or at least you think you 537 00:32:23,340 --> 00:32:26,220 S1: are performing well for God, then you feel okay. And 538 00:32:26,220 --> 00:32:28,700 S1: if you don't perform, then you're not okay. And so 539 00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:33,620 S1: you're always trying to live up to whatever standard it 540 00:32:33,620 --> 00:32:36,220 S1: is you think that he wants you to. And some 541 00:32:36,220 --> 00:32:39,700 S1: of those kinds of standards then are shaped by the 542 00:32:39,700 --> 00:32:43,540 S1: people in your life, your your parents, especially your father. 543 00:32:43,540 --> 00:32:47,300 S1: And can I live up to his standards and kind 544 00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:51,220 S1: of perform for him? So the spiritual life is this 545 00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:56,780 S1: constant treadmill of wanting to do more and wanting to 546 00:32:56,820 --> 00:33:01,300 S1: feel accepted and never getting there. It's the carrot that 547 00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:04,780 S1: is just ahead of you that you never grab hold of. 548 00:33:05,340 --> 00:33:08,100 S1: And then what I hear you saying is, then when 549 00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:11,900 S1: you realize this is something you can't do on your own, 550 00:33:12,220 --> 00:33:15,500 S1: this is something God has done for you has moved 551 00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:18,700 S1: in so that you can be accepted. You can relax. 552 00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:22,500 S1: You don't have to perform anymore. That's a game changer, 553 00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:23,100 S1: isn't it? 554 00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:25,700 S2: It is a game changer. It's the one the New 555 00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:28,260 S2: Testament describes over and over and over. You know, Paul 556 00:33:28,260 --> 00:33:33,620 S2: said that he glories in his weaknesses. Now, it's kind 557 00:33:33,660 --> 00:33:36,420 S2: of interesting how, you know, if you've got a cavity 558 00:33:36,420 --> 00:33:39,020 S2: in your tooth, you don't try to fix it before 559 00:33:39,020 --> 00:33:41,380 S2: you go to the dentist because you feel bad about it. 560 00:33:41,420 --> 00:33:44,060 S2: I mean, that's not the way it works. You go 561 00:33:44,060 --> 00:33:47,660 S2: to the dentist because you can't fix it. And and 562 00:33:47,820 --> 00:33:54,940 S2: it's our brokenness and our needs that are the first 563 00:33:55,460 --> 00:33:58,900 S2: connection to God. You know, a baby doesn't come into 564 00:33:58,900 --> 00:34:05,860 S2: the world performing. What do they do? David said, God, 565 00:34:05,860 --> 00:34:09,860 S2: you taught me to trust you at my mother's breast. 566 00:34:10,820 --> 00:34:15,850 S2: It was total dependency out of. I don't have anything, 567 00:34:15,850 --> 00:34:19,729 S2: I need milk, I need holding, I need somebody, I'm wet, 568 00:34:19,730 --> 00:34:23,930 S2: I need somebody to make me dry. It's total dependency. 569 00:34:24,290 --> 00:34:26,969 S2: And then what happens is what he brings from the outside. 570 00:34:26,969 --> 00:34:31,370 S2: That's called grace, unmerited favor. He brings us all of 571 00:34:31,370 --> 00:34:34,370 S2: these ingredients is first Peter four says, when we use 572 00:34:34,370 --> 00:34:37,730 S2: our gifts with one another, you're administering the grace of 573 00:34:37,730 --> 00:34:43,810 S2: God in its various forms. A teacher who's teaching math 574 00:34:43,810 --> 00:34:47,250 S2: is administering the grace of God in a various form. 575 00:34:47,650 --> 00:34:52,210 S2: The anybody else did it? We draw life from outside 576 00:34:52,210 --> 00:34:57,170 S2: of ourselves, and it's the places that we're dead and 577 00:34:57,170 --> 00:35:01,730 S2: broken that need to come to the breast of God 578 00:35:01,730 --> 00:35:05,169 S2: and take in life, and he will begin to make 579 00:35:05,170 --> 00:35:07,730 S2: those parts strong. And then you can actually start to 580 00:35:07,770 --> 00:35:11,410 S2: perform in those areas, but it's not the other way around. 581 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,839 S2: We don't build the tower to heaven. They found that 582 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:15,680 S2: out at Babel. 583 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,680 S1: Yeah, that's Doctor Henry Cloud. New York Times best selling 584 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,000 S1: author of Boundaries to Know him is a featured resource. 585 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,799 S1: If you go to Chris Paul. It's a 90 day 586 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,719 S1: invitation to come to God as you are. Doesn't that 587 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,960 S1: sound good? Doesn't that you don't have to perform that 588 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,040 S1: he can allow you. He can give you the strength 589 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,239 S1: to do what you can't do on your own. I 590 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,160 S1: think that sounds pretty good. More straight ahead on Moody Radio. 591 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,520 S1: If you have anxiety in your life, I want you 592 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,600 S1: to hear from Blair tomorrow, because anxiety in her life 593 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,520 S1: was actually, she calls it a gift from God to 594 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,240 S1: help her deepen her faith. Lee Strobel is back on Thursday. 595 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,680 S1: We're going to talk about some of the miraculous things 596 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:14,960 S1: that are going on out there in the world, and 597 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,240 S1: how he's looking at the the supernatural. And then on Friday, 598 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,520 S1: we're going to talk about men and empathy with the 599 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,920 S1: gall tears. Um, Doctor Henry Cloud is with us today. 600 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,279 S1: You've written about man. I wanted to ask you about 601 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,680 S1: this man and feelings. For so much of my life. 602 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,680 S1: I've tried to push my feelings down and is like 603 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:41,280 S1: maturity and. And being whole meant that I don't feel anything. 604 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,840 S1: And I know that's not true, but it felt very 605 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,480 S1: it felt validated. You know, I'm strong and I go through. Um, what? 606 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,879 S1: Say a word about men and being able to feel 607 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,160 S1: what is going on in their life. 608 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,400 S2: Well, the first question I would ask is, do you 609 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,200 S2: want to function well in life? Second one is, do 610 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,799 S2: you want to have good relationships in life and have 611 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:10,310 S2: other people feel close to you and trust you. And 612 00:37:10,310 --> 00:37:12,669 S2: the third one is, do you have any interest at 613 00:37:12,670 --> 00:37:17,950 S2: all in being like God? That's a good question. 614 00:37:17,989 --> 00:37:18,950 S1: Those are very good questions. 615 00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:22,870 S2: Yeah. Just because if you are not quote what they 616 00:37:22,870 --> 00:37:25,549 S2: say in touch like it's, you know, some sort of 617 00:37:25,590 --> 00:37:29,150 S2: new thing. God, I mean, it's so clear in the 618 00:37:29,150 --> 00:37:33,350 S2: scriptures he says, he says go and learn what this means, 619 00:37:33,350 --> 00:37:40,070 S2: that I desire compassion and not sacrifice. Jesus felt this 620 00:37:40,070 --> 00:37:43,989 S2: movement in literally the language here is from his bowels. 621 00:37:43,989 --> 00:37:49,350 S2: That's an emotional movement of compassion for the people. We 622 00:37:49,350 --> 00:37:54,870 S2: we have so much in the scriptures where where God is, 623 00:37:54,910 --> 00:37:57,509 S2: is you just can't get around it. But here's a 624 00:37:57,510 --> 00:38:00,790 S2: big one, Chris. When people say that, you know, it's 625 00:38:00,790 --> 00:38:05,350 S2: so spiritual to, you know, be stoic. Ephesians four has, 626 00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:08,390 S2: you know, I've studied addictions for decades. I've had all 627 00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:10,670 S2: the training and there's a lot of good stuff there. 628 00:38:10,830 --> 00:38:16,230 S2: But if you want the best model of addiction science, 629 00:38:16,270 --> 00:38:20,110 S2: go to Ephesians four. And here's what it says. He's 630 00:38:20,110 --> 00:38:22,310 S2: talking to Christians and he says, don't be like the 631 00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:29,270 S2: Gentiles who are darkened in their understanding. They're thinking stupid stuff, basically, right? 632 00:38:29,310 --> 00:38:32,630 S2: I mean, shouldn't have feelings that should be strong, darken 633 00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:37,310 S2: in your understanding, and then it goes on and it says, 634 00:38:38,270 --> 00:38:44,589 S2: separated from the life of God. Excuse me? It doesn't 635 00:38:44,590 --> 00:38:48,030 S2: say separated from God. He's talking to believers, separated from 636 00:38:48,030 --> 00:38:51,790 S2: the life of God. And then it says, who have 637 00:38:51,790 --> 00:38:58,790 S2: gone beyond feeling their hearts have been hardened. And once 638 00:38:58,790 --> 00:39:03,550 S2: that happens, it says, then they give themselves over to 639 00:39:03,590 --> 00:39:07,739 S2: all of these sensual desires so they can feel alive again. 640 00:39:07,739 --> 00:39:10,500 S2: And some of those can even be theological, theological Sunday 641 00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:15,260 S2: school pins trying to feel alive again with a continual 642 00:39:15,260 --> 00:39:20,340 S2: lust for more. An addiction is fueled by the internal 643 00:39:20,340 --> 00:39:25,900 S2: separation from life. And if you can't feel your heart, 644 00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:31,100 S2: which is anybody knows anything about neuroscience. Our limbic system, 645 00:39:31,739 --> 00:39:38,420 S2: our feelings, that is a primary process. Our secondary process 646 00:39:38,460 --> 00:39:42,140 S2: is more about language and meaning and understanding and logic 647 00:39:42,140 --> 00:39:45,460 S2: and all of that. And that gets laid down. Second. 648 00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:48,379 S2: And so you're trying to go through an earthquake of 649 00:39:48,380 --> 00:39:52,100 S2: life living with a house built on the second story 650 00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:56,460 S2: without any foundation. And I'm telling you, you are on 651 00:39:56,460 --> 00:39:59,660 S2: shaky ground if you're not in touch with your heart. 652 00:40:01,020 --> 00:40:05,500 S1: Isn't that when Jesus John 1010 came to give life 653 00:40:05,500 --> 00:40:08,540 S1: and give it abundantly. This is part of that. It's 654 00:40:08,540 --> 00:40:14,140 S1: not a lack of suffering or struggle or hardship in 655 00:40:14,140 --> 00:40:19,580 S1: life that leads to happiness and joy. It is the 656 00:40:19,580 --> 00:40:23,020 S1: presence of God in the middle of the suffering and 657 00:40:23,020 --> 00:40:27,100 S1: the struggle and the hardship and the highs and the lows. Right. 658 00:40:28,140 --> 00:40:31,940 S2: Yeah. I often think of how many times in the scriptures, 659 00:40:31,980 --> 00:40:34,299 S2: you know, they're going to go through hell, they're going 660 00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:37,580 S2: through something that's just terrible. And the one thing he 661 00:40:37,580 --> 00:40:46,860 S2: says is, I will be with you. With you. His presence, 662 00:40:46,860 --> 00:40:50,140 S2: my presence will be with you. Okay. So here's what 663 00:40:50,140 --> 00:40:53,460 S2: we know about just from the science and reality of 664 00:40:53,460 --> 00:40:58,180 S2: any kind of treatment that you begin to heal trauma, 665 00:40:58,219 --> 00:41:02,300 S2: you begin to heal all sorts of psychological maladies by 666 00:41:02,300 --> 00:41:05,169 S2: the first thing that has to be established is an 667 00:41:05,170 --> 00:41:10,770 S2: empathic connection with somebody. There's somebody feels like someone else 668 00:41:10,810 --> 00:41:13,850 S2: is with them, and they've got to be with them 669 00:41:13,850 --> 00:41:19,009 S2: from their heart. The Bible says, weep with those who weep. 670 00:41:19,770 --> 00:41:24,009 S2: And so God's presence, that empathic presence. And if you've 671 00:41:24,010 --> 00:41:26,810 S2: ever known anybody that lost a child or lost a 672 00:41:26,810 --> 00:41:30,890 S2: loved one and and they'll tell you later, people would 673 00:41:30,890 --> 00:41:32,410 S2: come into my house and they'd go, well, they're in 674 00:41:32,410 --> 00:41:34,529 S2: a better place now. You don't have to fear. And 675 00:41:34,530 --> 00:41:36,969 S2: they try to get them out of the pain, right? 676 00:41:37,210 --> 00:41:40,210 S2: By saying all these platitudes versus the friends that would 677 00:41:40,210 --> 00:41:44,810 S2: just be there, the being there. And job said to 678 00:41:44,850 --> 00:41:48,729 S2: his great counselors, you're worthless as counselors. I wish your 679 00:41:48,730 --> 00:41:53,170 S2: wisdom were silence. Just shut up and be with me. 680 00:41:53,170 --> 00:41:57,850 S2: And that's what people need. And that's just something you 681 00:41:57,850 --> 00:42:01,930 S2: see throughout the scriptures that it all starts with connection. 682 00:42:01,930 --> 00:42:05,330 S2: It starts with abiding John 15. You know, you can 683 00:42:05,330 --> 00:42:07,810 S2: go do all this stuff, but if you're not connected 684 00:42:08,330 --> 00:42:11,370 S2: to God from the heart and also it says if 685 00:42:11,370 --> 00:42:14,969 S2: you're not connected with others, then first John said, well, 686 00:42:14,969 --> 00:42:16,210 S2: how are you going to say you love God? You 687 00:42:16,210 --> 00:42:17,810 S2: can't see if you can't even love your brother that 688 00:42:17,810 --> 00:42:20,810 S2: you can't see. We have an incarnational gospel and an 689 00:42:20,850 --> 00:42:27,250 S2: incarnational methodology of change and growth. Ephesians four says, the 690 00:42:27,250 --> 00:42:32,050 S2: whole body, connected and joined together by every sinew and ligament, 691 00:42:32,330 --> 00:42:36,810 S2: heals itself as each part does its work. If you 692 00:42:36,810 --> 00:42:39,370 S2: have an infected finger, you don't amputate it and put 693 00:42:39,370 --> 00:42:42,570 S2: it in a drawer with a book on anatomy. It's 694 00:42:42,570 --> 00:42:44,969 S2: got to be connected to the body. That brings to 695 00:42:45,010 --> 00:42:50,489 S2: it new blood, new cells, oxygenated blood, taking out the toxins, 696 00:42:50,489 --> 00:42:56,690 S2: immune system functioning. When we are connected relationally to God 697 00:42:56,969 --> 00:43:01,480 S2: and through his people, there's great healing. but we're not 698 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,080 S2: going to self-help your way out of that by yourself. 699 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,839 S1: There's a story in one of the devotions about when 700 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,400 S1: you were four years old and you had leg pain, 701 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,200 S1: and what happened there. I'm not going to tell the 702 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,680 S1: story here, but it's worth the price right there to 703 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,000 S1: get to get this, to read this. What, uh, Doctor 704 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:23,040 S1: Cloud has been through in his life. Last question for you. Um, 705 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,520 S1: what do you hope when somebody picks this up and 706 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,120 S1: goes through it takes this 90 day invitation? What do 707 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:29,800 S1: you hope happens inside of them? 708 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,120 S2: Well, I would I hope a few things. And one 709 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,399 S2: of them that I really hope, Chris, is I mean, 710 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,920 S2: I'm not trying to sell books here. I'm trying to 711 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,239 S2: complete a mission. Um, I wrote this book in the 712 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:53,879 S2: beginning for non-believers to understand why this stuff is true. 713 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,120 S2: And we got Christmas coming up and a devotional little 714 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,320 S2: book like this. Or the main book, Why I believe 715 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,839 S2: I what I hope through this book is that Christians 716 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,239 S2: would give it to the non-believing friends that they have 717 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:12,399 S2: struggled talking to about faith or extended family. But then 718 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,319 S2: when after after I wrote it, it was out. What 719 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,560 S2: I began to hear over and over and over was 720 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,960 S2: it was Christians really were experiencing it as a deepening 721 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,600 S2: of their faith and a answering some doubts and questions 722 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,920 S2: that they had. But a and also a doorway to healing. 723 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,680 S2: So I would want some people to to come to 724 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,640 S2: Jesus because of this. And I would want people who 725 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:43,440 S2: know him to know him more deeply, because my life 726 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:49,400 S2: mission is I want to be a bridge to God. 727 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,400 S2: That's what I want to be for somebody in the 728 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,280 S2: faith or not. A bridge to getting them closer. And 729 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,280 S2: the third thing is, and I wrote a whole section 730 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,750 S2: in the why I believe book on this, Chris, is 731 00:45:00,750 --> 00:45:05,350 S2: what breaks my heart as a psychologist and as a 732 00:45:05,350 --> 00:45:10,390 S2: Christian is. There's so many great things that happen in 733 00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:15,230 S2: good therapy, but God's not getting the credit for it 734 00:45:15,230 --> 00:45:18,390 S2: because people don't know all of that stuff is in 735 00:45:18,390 --> 00:45:22,310 S2: the Bible. I believe in therapy. You got to go 736 00:45:22,310 --> 00:45:26,190 S2: deep and down when somebody knows what they're doing. But 737 00:45:26,190 --> 00:45:29,750 S2: there's nothing in good evidence based therapy. That's not a 738 00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:33,190 S2: principle that's taught over and over and over in the scriptures. 739 00:45:33,590 --> 00:45:37,390 S2: And I want people to know, look, people get well 740 00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:42,910 S2: because they walk in. They they're starting to walk in 741 00:45:42,910 --> 00:45:47,069 S2: God's ways, whether they know it or not. He is 742 00:45:47,070 --> 00:45:51,510 S2: the one that designed the created order and went into 743 00:45:51,510 --> 00:45:54,550 S2: the fall and has redeemed it. And it's his ways 744 00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:57,069 S2: are going to heal somebody. And I would like them 745 00:45:57,070 --> 00:46:01,190 S2: to know that when they're getting well by some quote, 746 00:46:01,230 --> 00:46:04,830 S2: you know, psychological technique. Well, here's the verse that talks 747 00:46:04,830 --> 00:46:07,870 S2: about that. I want God to get the credit. That's 748 00:46:07,870 --> 00:46:08,590 S2: what I want. 749 00:46:09,710 --> 00:46:13,510 S1: Your heart has come through here, Henry. Doctor cloud, thank 750 00:46:13,510 --> 00:46:16,710 S1: you for joining us today, and I that's what I 751 00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:19,350 S1: picked up as I went through this. It's like you 752 00:46:19,390 --> 00:46:24,430 S1: want somebody who doesn't know the freedom of what walking 753 00:46:24,430 --> 00:46:27,790 S1: with Jesus means. And the joy that can come through 754 00:46:27,790 --> 00:46:31,070 S1: that even in the midst of some really hard circumstances. 755 00:46:31,070 --> 00:46:35,830 S1: Doctor Henry Cloud, who's written boundaries, now has to know him. 756 00:46:35,830 --> 00:46:38,029 S1: A 90 day invitation to come as you are to 757 00:46:38,070 --> 00:46:42,989 S1: God as you are. It's our featured resource, Chris Fabry. Hey, 758 00:46:42,989 --> 00:46:46,149 S1: thanks for listening. Our program's production of Moody Radio, a 759 00:46:46,150 --> 00:46:48,550 S1: ministry of Moody Bible Institute.