1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 S1: Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,160 S1: downloading this podcast, and I hope you hear something that 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,560 S1: will really encourage and edify you. But before you start 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,400 S1: to listen, let me take a moment of your time 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,399 S1: and tell you about this month's truth tool. It's called 6 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,640 S1: secure How to Have a Healthy Attachment to God. And 7 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,360 S1: it follows that very often, whatever our relationship is like 8 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,000 S1: with authority figures, predominantly our parents, we somehow transferred to 9 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,040 S1: how we see God. So if we have an angry parent, 10 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,319 S1: he's an angry God. If it's a distant parent, he's 11 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,520 S1: a God who's not there. I think it's important we 12 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,680 S1: understand who God really is. And in this wonderful book 13 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,760 S1: called secure, you're going to discover the character of God 14 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,120 S1: and how deeply in love God is with you. It's 15 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,839 S1: our truth tool. Our truth tools are my way of 16 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,680 S1: saying thank you because we are listener supported radio. So 17 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,600 S1: if you'd like a copy of secure, just call eight 7758. 18 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,760 S1: That's eight 7758. Give a gift of any amount. My 19 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,840 S1: way of saying thank you for supporting the program is 20 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,000 S1: I'll send you a copy of secure. You can also 21 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,480 S1: do this online at In the Market with Janet Parshall. 22 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,560 S1: Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover 23 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,900 S1: of the book secure. Click on the photo. Go right 24 00:01:01,900 --> 00:01:03,940 S1: on through. Make your donation and we'll send you a 25 00:01:03,940 --> 00:01:06,740 S1: copy again of secure. If you want to consider becoming 26 00:01:06,740 --> 00:01:09,899 S1: a partial partner, that is the ever increasing circle of 27 00:01:09,900 --> 00:01:12,060 S1: friends who give every single month at a level of 28 00:01:12,060 --> 00:01:14,340 S1: their own choosing. And my way of saying thank you 29 00:01:14,340 --> 00:01:16,780 S1: is this you always get the truth tool for each 30 00:01:16,780 --> 00:01:18,900 S1: and every month. And in addition to that, you get 31 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:21,860 S1: a weekly newsletter that includes some of my writing and 32 00:01:21,860 --> 00:01:24,420 S1: a little audio piece just for my partial partners. So 33 00:01:24,420 --> 00:01:27,380 S1: either way, thank you in advance for prayerfully considering the 34 00:01:27,380 --> 00:01:30,660 S1: opportunity to financially support in the market with Janet partial 35 00:01:30,660 --> 00:01:32,700 S1: and keeping it on the air now, I hope you 36 00:01:32,740 --> 00:01:34,860 S1: hear something that will encourage you to get out and 37 00:01:34,860 --> 00:01:37,860 S1: influence and occupy in the marketplace of ideas. 38 00:01:38,340 --> 00:01:39,860 S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 39 00:01:40,140 --> 00:01:42,500 S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 40 00:01:42,540 --> 00:01:44,619 S4: Americans worshiping government over God. 41 00:01:44,940 --> 00:01:48,340 S3: Extremely rare safety move by MH 17 years. 42 00:01:48,340 --> 00:01:50,420 S5: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. 43 00:01:50,820 --> 00:01:52,060 S3: It is not. 44 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,079 S1: Hello, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. 45 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,000 S1: I have been counting the days to have this conversation 46 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,720 S1: with Rod Dryer. It is a stunning clarion call. It 47 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,720 S1: is a wake up call in particular to the church. 48 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,799 S1: If you listen carefully, I think I hear the sound 49 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,600 S1: of Nehemiah's trumpets being heralded. You and I are living 50 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,040 S1: not in the midst of a political shift, but a 51 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,960 S1: cultural shift. Do we recognize what's going on? And if 52 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,800 S1: we're like the men of the tribe of Issachar, do 53 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,560 S1: we know the times and know what to do for 54 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,440 S1: the nation? The book that rod has authored is called 55 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,560 S1: Live Not by Lies, a manual for Christian Dissidents. And 56 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,639 S1: I will tell you that rod is senior editor at 57 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,280 S1: the American Conservative. He's written and edited for the New 58 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,000 S1: York Post, The Dallas Morning News, National Review. His commentary 59 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,160 S1: has been published in all the major papers out there 60 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,299 S1: that count. The Wall Street Journal, The Weekly Standard, and 61 00:02:58,300 --> 00:03:02,140 S1: he's written several best selling books, including The Benedict Option. 62 00:03:02,180 --> 00:03:04,260 S1: Rod Dreher, thank you for the gift of your time, 63 00:03:04,260 --> 00:03:08,859 S1: but thank you even more. This book with clarity is prophetic. Now, 64 00:03:08,900 --> 00:03:11,060 S1: that's probably not good news for you to hear because 65 00:03:11,060 --> 00:03:13,300 S1: the way I read it, most of the prophets didn't 66 00:03:13,300 --> 00:03:16,020 S1: end up real good. They challenged people living during a 67 00:03:16,020 --> 00:03:19,260 S1: certain time, telling them that things were changing. So I'm 68 00:03:19,260 --> 00:03:20,980 S1: thrilled that you're here to be with us. Thank you 69 00:03:20,980 --> 00:03:21,660 S1: so much. 70 00:03:22,980 --> 00:03:25,900 S6: Well, thank you so much for your kind words. And yeah, 71 00:03:26,220 --> 00:03:29,020 S6: this is a tough time, but I felt like I 72 00:03:29,020 --> 00:03:31,540 S6: had to tell the truth. People don't want to hear 73 00:03:31,540 --> 00:03:35,020 S6: bad news, but if we don't wake up and see 74 00:03:35,020 --> 00:03:37,980 S6: what's happening to our country right now and get ready 75 00:03:38,140 --> 00:03:40,220 S6: for what's coming, we're not going to make it. 76 00:03:40,540 --> 00:03:43,020 S1: Amen. Couldn't agree more. I also want to do this 77 00:03:43,020 --> 00:03:45,140 S1: as a primer. We're talking to folks from Guam all 78 00:03:45,140 --> 00:03:46,980 S1: the way to the Cayman Islands, and there's a whole 79 00:03:46,980 --> 00:03:50,140 S1: generation of people out there who don't have a clue 80 00:03:50,180 --> 00:03:52,860 S1: who Alexander Solzhenitsyn was. So therefore they're not going to 81 00:03:52,860 --> 00:03:56,160 S1: resonate necessarily with the title as a primer. Tell us 82 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,600 S1: who this man was and why you gleaned his words 83 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:00,440 S1: for your title. 84 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,600 S6: Alexander Solzhenitsyn was one of the great human rights figures 85 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,720 S6: of the 20th century. He was an anti-Soviet dissident, a 86 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:15,480 S6: Russian who went through the Gulag, the the archipelago of 87 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,480 S6: prison camps that the Soviets set up for all dissenters. 88 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,880 S6: And when he emerged, he wrote this massive book called 89 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,200 S6: The Gulag Archipelago that told the truth about what the 90 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:30,400 S6: Soviets were really doing. And Solzhenitsyn was expelled from the 91 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,040 S6: Soviet Union in 1974 as a troublemaker. He won the 92 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,000 S6: Nobel Prize for his witness. And on the eve of 93 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:43,839 S6: his expulsion in 1974, Solzhenitsyn wrote a final message to 94 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,240 S6: his followers in Russia. He told them, listen, we may 95 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,040 S6: not be able to overcome this totalitarian government on our own, 96 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,420 S6: but the one thing we can all do is to 97 00:04:53,460 --> 00:04:57,180 S6: refuse to live by the lies that they're making us swallow. 98 00:04:57,420 --> 00:05:00,940 S6: We can refuse. And even in a small way, to 99 00:05:01,420 --> 00:05:05,500 S6: participate in these charades. And we can withhold our our 100 00:05:05,540 --> 00:05:09,380 S6: consent and our assent to the series of lies. And 101 00:05:09,380 --> 00:05:12,900 S6: in so doing, we will win a moral victory. Well, 102 00:05:12,900 --> 00:05:15,540 S6: this is what this was so inspiring to me when 103 00:05:15,540 --> 00:05:17,940 S6: I read that, I thought, this really applies to us 104 00:05:17,940 --> 00:05:22,260 S6: today in this culture. We don't have gulags in this country. 105 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:24,980 S6: We don't have secret police coming for us. But we 106 00:05:24,980 --> 00:05:29,260 S6: are increasingly forced to live under a series of lies, 107 00:05:29,260 --> 00:05:33,180 S6: of ideological lies. And we need the moral example and 108 00:05:33,180 --> 00:05:37,180 S6: the heroism and the inspiration of men like Alexander Solzhenitsyn, 109 00:05:37,180 --> 00:05:39,940 S6: and also women from behind the Iron Curtain, to give 110 00:05:39,940 --> 00:05:43,660 S6: us direction and inspiration for how to face our own crisis. 111 00:05:44,180 --> 00:05:46,820 S1: Yes, the book is many things, not the least of 112 00:05:46,820 --> 00:05:48,860 S1: which is a clarion call to courage. And I'll come 113 00:05:48,860 --> 00:05:51,960 S1: back to that in a bit, but in this address, 114 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,239 S1: 1974 February 12th, the same day, the secret police break 115 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,719 S1: into his apartment and they arrest him. And, uh, wow, 116 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,919 S1: we praise God for really what he taught us because 117 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,440 S1: he was likewise giving us a wake up call. I 118 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,000 S1: want to break down terms. Can you help us draw 119 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,960 S1: the distinction between authoritarianism and totalitarianism? 120 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,920 S6: A very important distinction, Janice. Uh, authoritarianism is when all 121 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,480 S6: the political power in a society is concentrated in one 122 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,360 S6: leader or a political party, but under an authoritarian regime, 123 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,440 S6: politics is completely controlled. But they don't really care about 124 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,720 S6: the rest of society. Totalitarianism, on the other hand, is 125 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,240 S6: an extreme form of authoritarianism. It says that everything in 126 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,159 S6: society is concentrated in the hands of a power of 127 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,200 S6: a party or a leader, but also every other aspect 128 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:50,940 S6: of life is is similarly controlled and there's no aspect 129 00:06:50,940 --> 00:06:54,380 S6: of life, no part of life that goes unpoliticized. Under 130 00:06:54,380 --> 00:06:58,460 S6: totalitarianism in the Soviet Union, for example, not long after 131 00:06:58,460 --> 00:07:02,300 S6: the revolution, the Soviet chess club tried desperately to keep 132 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:06,820 S6: chess from being politicized. They put a wrote an article 133 00:07:06,820 --> 00:07:09,540 S6: saying let's leave chess alone. Let's just have chess for 134 00:07:09,540 --> 00:07:13,540 S6: chess sake. But the commissars wrote them and said, no, comrades, 135 00:07:13,900 --> 00:07:17,980 S6: under the revolution, everything must be for the revolution. This 136 00:07:17,980 --> 00:07:22,140 S6: is classic totalitarianism. What's more, and George Orwell pointed this 137 00:07:22,140 --> 00:07:26,380 S6: out very well in 1984. Under totalitarianism, they don't just 138 00:07:26,380 --> 00:07:30,059 S6: want your obedience, they want your soul. You must, in 139 00:07:30,060 --> 00:07:32,340 S6: the end, come to love, big Brother. 140 00:07:33,380 --> 00:07:36,460 S1: Wow, wow. What a wake up call. So many. And 141 00:07:36,460 --> 00:07:38,940 S1: by the way, not only is your book being enjoyed 142 00:07:38,940 --> 00:07:42,420 S1: by people writ large because it's skyrocketing to the top 143 00:07:42,420 --> 00:07:44,540 S1: of the charts, but rod, as I read this book, 144 00:07:44,540 --> 00:07:46,680 S1: I thought, I'm so thankful that there really is a 145 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,880 S1: Christian witness in this book. And for people who don't 146 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,160 S1: have a point of reference for that. Were you really 147 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,120 S1: speaking into their lives that particularly for people of faith, 148 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,160 S1: there is a demand here to that. To recognize the 149 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,720 S1: truth is noble, to stand up for truth, to fight 150 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,560 S1: for truth, to live for truth, and if necessary, to 151 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,400 S1: die for truth. So I, I thank you for that because, again, 152 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,840 S1: it's such a very important move. I want to take 153 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,960 S1: a break. When I come back, I want to again 154 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:11,400 S1: look at some of the terms that are out there 155 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,440 S1: because you nailed it. We expect when you say totalitarianism, 156 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,400 S1: at least people who remember this from the high school 157 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,480 S1: civics class. We expect the hobnailed boots of government to 158 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:22,800 S1: come marching down the street, kick open the door, pull 159 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,120 S1: the plugs of our microphone, shut down our press, and 160 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,720 S1: dictate every aspect of our life. But you coined a 161 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,600 S1: word that I think is so succinct, soft totalitarianism. When 162 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,880 S1: we come back, define that, if you would, for us, rod, 163 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,920 S1: and help us understand how that's manifesting in our country 164 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,800 S1: today and where that is emanating from. All of those 165 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,320 S1: answers to those questions and a whole lot more can 166 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,860 S1: be found in this very important book. You've heard me 167 00:08:45,900 --> 00:08:48,699 S1: say this in my classroom. It would be required reading 168 00:08:48,700 --> 00:08:52,940 S1: live not by lies. It is a manual for Christian 169 00:08:52,940 --> 00:09:14,420 S1: dissidents back after this. How does our view of God 170 00:09:14,420 --> 00:09:17,540 S1: get distorted? Do you struggle with feeling close to God? Well, 171 00:09:17,540 --> 00:09:19,939 S1: that's why I've chosen secure how to have a healthy 172 00:09:19,940 --> 00:09:22,980 S1: attachment to God. As this month's truth tool, discover how 173 00:09:22,980 --> 00:09:25,620 S1: to counter the lies about the truth of God's character. 174 00:09:25,820 --> 00:09:28,020 S1: Ask for your copy of secure. When you give a 175 00:09:28,059 --> 00:09:32,060 S1: gift of any amount to in the market, call eight 7758. 176 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:36,020 S1: That's eight 7758 or go to in the market with 177 00:09:36,020 --> 00:09:42,220 S1: Janet parshall.org. What a joy to spend the hour with 178 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,480 S1: Rod Dreyer. Absolutely brilliant man, senior editor at the American 179 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,440 S1: Conservative and the author of the book that everybody's talking about, 180 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,360 S1: Live Not By Lies, titled gleaned from an Address by 181 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,760 S1: Alexander Solzhenitsyn, an essay, rather, and the subtitle says it 182 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:01,400 S1: all a manual for Christian Dissidents. Rod you brilliantly, both 183 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,560 S1: through fact and history, and quoting all kinds of great thinkers, 184 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:11,360 S1: talk about the vacuum when God is exorcized out how 185 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,960 S1: totalitarianism comes running in, you write at one point, the 186 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,520 S1: man who wrote the book The Captive Mind said that 187 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,200 S1: communist ideology filled a void that had opened in the 188 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,280 S1: lives of early 20th century intellectuals, none of whom had 189 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,840 S1: ceased to believe in religion. In the book The Triumph 190 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,000 S1: of the therapeutic, the author says that the death of 191 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,520 S1: God in the West had given birth to a new 192 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,040 S1: civilization devoted to liberating the individuals, to seek his own 193 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,560 S1: pleasures and to manage emergent anxieties. Pull that out. You 194 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,040 S1: have to fill it with something. And it's the exaltation 195 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,300 S1: of man, which totalitarianism in some bizarre way seemed to 196 00:10:43,300 --> 00:10:45,460 S1: be promising in a kind of utopian form. 197 00:10:47,460 --> 00:10:51,580 S6: That's right. You know, Alexander Solzhenitsyn won the Templeton Prize 198 00:10:51,780 --> 00:10:54,860 S6: for Progress in Religion back in 1983, I think it was. 199 00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:57,940 S6: And in his address, when he accepted the prize, he 200 00:10:57,940 --> 00:11:01,340 S6: said that when he first went into the Gulag, uh, 201 00:11:01,780 --> 00:11:04,460 S6: the Soviets sent him there. He heard people in the Gulag, 202 00:11:04,460 --> 00:11:07,980 S6: fellow prisoners saying the reason the revolution came upon Russia 203 00:11:07,980 --> 00:11:11,260 S6: is men have forgotten God. So Sinitsyn was not a 204 00:11:11,260 --> 00:11:14,060 S6: believer at that time. And he thought that was, uh, 205 00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:17,540 S6: you know, really kind of simplistic and not true. But 206 00:11:17,540 --> 00:11:21,180 S6: as he continued in prison to talk to more prisoners 207 00:11:21,179 --> 00:11:24,059 S6: and to think about the calamity that had befallen Russia, 208 00:11:24,059 --> 00:11:27,220 S6: he came to realize, you know what? That's true. Men 209 00:11:27,220 --> 00:11:30,780 S6: have forgotten God. And that's why God allowed this, uh, 210 00:11:30,780 --> 00:11:33,060 S6: allowed people to get what they wanted. And I think 211 00:11:33,059 --> 00:11:35,020 S6: the same thing is happening to us, although it's happening 212 00:11:35,020 --> 00:11:38,870 S6: in a very different way. Janet, uh, we have been. 213 00:11:39,230 --> 00:11:43,470 S6: We have become so comfortable and so devoted to fulfilling 214 00:11:43,590 --> 00:11:47,230 S6: our every desire. We, our desires, have become our idols. 215 00:11:47,230 --> 00:11:50,230 S6: And that's why the kind of totalitarianism that is coming 216 00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:55,910 S6: up on us is not the hard 1984 Orwell style totalitarianism, 217 00:11:56,070 --> 00:11:59,590 S6: but rather it's a brave new world, Aldous Huxley kind 218 00:11:59,590 --> 00:12:04,070 S6: of totalitarianism, in which the controllers do not, uh, do 219 00:12:04,070 --> 00:12:07,750 S6: not force us to conform by inflicting pain and terror 220 00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:11,270 S6: on us. Rather, they will manage our pleasures and our 221 00:12:11,309 --> 00:12:15,270 S6: access to middle class comforts. And if we want to 222 00:12:15,309 --> 00:12:19,950 S6: continue to live the nice, peaceful, comforting lives that we have, 223 00:12:20,390 --> 00:12:23,030 S6: we're going to have to do is surrender our faith. 224 00:12:23,070 --> 00:12:25,750 S6: And it's going to become a very, very tempting thing 225 00:12:25,750 --> 00:12:26,550 S6: for Christians. 226 00:12:26,990 --> 00:12:30,110 S1: Yeah, I think you are spot on. That's why I 227 00:12:30,110 --> 00:12:32,309 S1: think this book is so crucial right now. So let 228 00:12:32,309 --> 00:12:34,070 S1: me talk about some of the ways in which this 229 00:12:34,070 --> 00:12:37,290 S1: soft totalitarianism is manifesting itself. And that, by the way, 230 00:12:37,290 --> 00:12:38,890 S1: I think is one of the most important points of 231 00:12:38,890 --> 00:12:40,730 S1: your book that if you're. My mom used to say 232 00:12:40,730 --> 00:12:42,490 S1: it beautifully, the devil's never going to show up with 233 00:12:42,490 --> 00:12:45,290 S1: a pitchfork and a cape. He's far too sophisticated for that. 234 00:12:45,290 --> 00:12:48,650 S1: So I think these insidious ways of it manifesting itself 235 00:12:48,770 --> 00:12:51,689 S1: are the kinds that we need to be looking out for. Obviously, 236 00:12:51,809 --> 00:12:54,930 S1: we see this coming out of intellectual. The intellectual community, 237 00:12:54,929 --> 00:12:57,930 S1: the academia. Rod, this is always been a fertile field. 238 00:12:57,929 --> 00:13:00,010 S1: Why mom and Dad paid good bucks to send somebody 239 00:13:00,010 --> 00:13:01,809 S1: to a great college, thinking their kid's going to get 240 00:13:01,809 --> 00:13:04,410 S1: a great job. What now? It's a matter of putting 241 00:13:04,410 --> 00:13:07,290 S1: him in some sort of paradigm whose sole purpose is 242 00:13:07,290 --> 00:13:09,250 S1: to indoctrinate them, and to make sure they come out 243 00:13:09,250 --> 00:13:13,290 S1: politically correct and despise anything that doesn't come into alignment 244 00:13:13,290 --> 00:13:15,730 S1: with whoever holds the bully pulpit in the classroom. Why 245 00:13:15,770 --> 00:13:17,490 S1: such a fertile field in academia? 246 00:13:19,170 --> 00:13:21,730 S6: Well, it has always been that way. Academics in this 247 00:13:21,730 --> 00:13:25,970 S6: country have always seen themselves as being countercultural. But I 248 00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:28,610 S6: can remember when I was in college, I'm 53 years old. 249 00:13:28,650 --> 00:13:31,290 S6: I'm a child of the last Cold War generation. I 250 00:13:31,290 --> 00:13:34,170 S6: can remember being super liberal in college and going back 251 00:13:34,170 --> 00:13:37,790 S6: home to try to convert my father away from supporting 252 00:13:37,790 --> 00:13:40,990 S6: Ronald Reagan. And he just laughed and said, just you wait, kid. 253 00:13:41,030 --> 00:13:42,670 S6: When you get out into the real world and start 254 00:13:42,670 --> 00:13:46,750 S6: paying taxes, you'll you'll change your views. Well, and of course, 255 00:13:46,750 --> 00:13:50,270 S6: he was right. He was completely right. But, um, one 256 00:13:50,270 --> 00:13:52,670 S6: thing that a lot of us conservatives did not see 257 00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:55,990 S6: coming is we always, uh, told ourselves that when kids 258 00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:59,030 S6: get out of college, they will go to the real world. Well, 259 00:13:59,030 --> 00:14:01,710 S6: a lot of these kids from the 90s and the 2000, 260 00:14:01,950 --> 00:14:05,950 S6: they graduated college. They started moving through the institutions like 261 00:14:05,950 --> 00:14:10,270 S6: big business and, uh, through media and other institutions much 262 00:14:10,270 --> 00:14:14,710 S6: more radical than their parents were. And they didn't change. 263 00:14:14,870 --> 00:14:19,430 S6: In fact, they found that these institutions welcomed this. And 264 00:14:19,510 --> 00:14:23,950 S6: this is why this is a quiet revolution that's really happened, Janet. But, um, 265 00:14:24,350 --> 00:14:26,430 S6: the rest of us have been watching politics, and we've 266 00:14:26,430 --> 00:14:29,950 S6: seen Republicans win and win and win. And yet the 267 00:14:29,950 --> 00:14:34,130 S6: culture keeps becoming more and more radical. And right now, 268 00:14:34,490 --> 00:14:36,410 S6: a lot of us are looking at President Trump and 269 00:14:36,410 --> 00:14:38,970 S6: are seeing him as the last bulwark against this sort 270 00:14:38,970 --> 00:14:41,490 S6: of thing. And in some ways, he is. But I 271 00:14:41,490 --> 00:14:44,250 S6: don't want people to have false hope. Uh, a lot 272 00:14:44,250 --> 00:14:46,770 S6: of this stuff that's going on is happening despite the 273 00:14:46,770 --> 00:14:49,450 S6: fact that we have a Republican president. We've had Republican 274 00:14:49,450 --> 00:14:53,370 S6: leadership in Congress because it's coming from the culture. 275 00:14:53,890 --> 00:14:56,730 S1: Exactly right. Exactly. It's what I've been saying over and 276 00:14:56,730 --> 00:14:59,410 S1: over again. It's too easy and quite frankly, and I 277 00:14:59,410 --> 00:15:02,250 S1: say this kindly, but it's too simplistic to think that 278 00:15:02,250 --> 00:15:04,370 S1: this is simply a political shift. It is not. I've 279 00:15:04,370 --> 00:15:07,450 S1: been in Washington too long. Parties rise and fall. They 280 00:15:07,450 --> 00:15:10,210 S1: come and go. Uh, we don't have term limits except 281 00:15:10,210 --> 00:15:13,250 S1: by constitutional restraint for the president. So wait a while. 282 00:15:13,250 --> 00:15:16,290 S1: And it's musical chairs. This is much more insidious. This 283 00:15:16,290 --> 00:15:19,450 S1: is a cultural shift with profound ramifications. So let me 284 00:15:19,490 --> 00:15:21,690 S1: hit the pause button. Rod, if you didn't get a 285 00:15:21,730 --> 00:15:24,810 S1: degree in philosophy, and most people don't because dad said, 286 00:15:24,810 --> 00:15:26,250 S1: how are you going to pay the rent with that kid? 287 00:15:26,250 --> 00:15:29,250 S1: So they escape that major in college. But it's a 288 00:15:29,250 --> 00:15:34,190 S1: wonderful opportunity to really study ideas, worldviews, and to recognize 289 00:15:34,190 --> 00:15:38,430 S1: that good ideas have good consequences. Bad ideas have bad consequences. 290 00:15:38,430 --> 00:15:40,950 S1: That's transcendent for a lot of people. Can you break 291 00:15:40,950 --> 00:15:43,230 S1: that down into common parlance for us? So in other words, 292 00:15:43,230 --> 00:15:48,470 S1: we're battling an ideology. But ideas do have consequences. You 293 00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:51,590 S1: want to pay your bills, keep your family safe, make 294 00:15:51,630 --> 00:15:53,670 S1: sure that the dog gets out and the laundry gets 295 00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:56,710 S1: taken care of. Just all those everyday demands of life, 296 00:15:57,070 --> 00:15:59,150 S1: it's hard to stop and say, wait a minute. The 297 00:15:59,150 --> 00:16:01,990 S1: odious fog of that insidious idea is starting to work 298 00:16:01,990 --> 00:16:05,230 S1: its way under my front door. How do we how 299 00:16:05,230 --> 00:16:07,030 S1: do we recognize that happening? 300 00:16:08,830 --> 00:16:11,790 S6: Right. Well, this is precisely the book that began to 301 00:16:11,830 --> 00:16:14,430 S6: turn me away from liberalism to conservatism when I was 302 00:16:14,430 --> 00:16:18,030 S6: in college. Ideas Have Consequences by Richard Weaver, because it 303 00:16:18,030 --> 00:16:20,910 S6: made me stop and think about what would happen if 304 00:16:20,910 --> 00:16:24,550 S6: everybody in society believed the liberal things that I did, 305 00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:27,070 S6: you know, and you start putting two and two together 306 00:16:27,070 --> 00:16:30,290 S6: and you begin to realize that the kind of world 307 00:16:30,290 --> 00:16:33,850 S6: that we would have if everybody was liberal. Well, these 308 00:16:33,850 --> 00:16:37,250 S6: ideas do matter. Ideas that people take up within themselves 309 00:16:37,250 --> 00:16:40,170 S6: and live out in their life, in their lives, among 310 00:16:40,170 --> 00:16:43,570 S6: their friends and their communities and their churches. They become 311 00:16:43,570 --> 00:16:47,490 S6: the framework through which we see reality. And that's why 312 00:16:47,490 --> 00:16:50,930 S6: it matters so much to totalitarians that they gain control 313 00:16:51,170 --> 00:16:55,090 S6: of the storytelling and story making mechanisms in a society 314 00:16:55,090 --> 00:17:00,690 S6: like media and entertainment, because they know that those who 315 00:17:00,690 --> 00:17:03,090 S6: have the control of that will have control of the people. 316 00:17:03,610 --> 00:17:06,810 S1: Exactly right. Managing the message. How very true. The book 317 00:17:06,810 --> 00:17:10,010 S1: is called Live Not by Lies. Rod Dreher is the author. 318 00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:12,290 S1: I am thrilled that we get to spend the entire 319 00:17:12,290 --> 00:17:15,450 S1: hour with him. There is so much in this book 320 00:17:15,609 --> 00:17:42,750 S1: and we'll continue with rod right after this. Live Not 321 00:17:42,750 --> 00:17:46,709 S1: by Lies, Words by Alexander Solzhenitsyn and an essay he 322 00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:50,430 S1: published in 1974, and it's now the title of Rod 323 00:17:50,430 --> 00:17:53,189 S1: Dreher's new book, Live Not by Lies a manual for 324 00:17:53,190 --> 00:17:55,830 S1: Christian Dissidents. And it is a wake up call. You 325 00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:59,550 S1: and I are seeing a preponderance of evidence that soft 326 00:17:59,550 --> 00:18:03,630 S1: totalitarianism has already taken up residency here in the United States. So, rod, 327 00:18:03,630 --> 00:18:05,949 S1: you were saying before, this has always been the way 328 00:18:05,950 --> 00:18:08,750 S1: it has been in academia. And I'll tell you what, 329 00:18:08,750 --> 00:18:10,670 S1: I'm glad my kids are out because it's tough now 330 00:18:10,670 --> 00:18:12,990 S1: to send those tuition dollars off and hope that they 331 00:18:12,990 --> 00:18:16,429 S1: come back with their moral compass intact and their worldview 332 00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:19,390 S1: still rock solid. Uh, and it's becoming harder and harder 333 00:18:19,390 --> 00:18:22,630 S1: for parents. But there's another feeder into this system, and 334 00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:26,570 S1: that's what you call woke capitalism. I love this. Explain 335 00:18:26,570 --> 00:18:28,650 S1: what it is and give us some examples. 336 00:18:30,770 --> 00:18:34,650 S6: Well, the thing that inspired this book, Live Not By Lies, 337 00:18:34,650 --> 00:18:37,409 S6: was a phone call I got in 19, I'm sorry, 338 00:18:37,410 --> 00:18:41,730 S6: in 2015 from a physician in Minnesota, he called me 339 00:18:41,730 --> 00:18:43,770 S6: out of the blue because we had a mutual friend 340 00:18:44,130 --> 00:18:47,609 S6: and said, sir, my mother spent four years in a 341 00:18:47,609 --> 00:18:51,369 S6: communist prison for her Christian faith in Czechoslovakia. She's very 342 00:18:51,369 --> 00:18:54,010 S6: old now, lives here with me and my wife, and 343 00:18:54,170 --> 00:18:57,130 S6: she says the things she's seeing in this country remind 344 00:18:57,130 --> 00:19:00,970 S6: her of when communism first came to Czechoslovakia. Well, what 345 00:19:00,970 --> 00:19:03,290 S6: she was referring to, Janet, is she had just seen 346 00:19:03,290 --> 00:19:07,330 S6: on television the attack on Memories Pizza in Indiana. That 347 00:19:07,330 --> 00:19:09,850 S6: was a little small town pizza parlor in the state 348 00:19:09,850 --> 00:19:13,570 S6: of Indiana owned by some evangelical Christians. And it came 349 00:19:13,570 --> 00:19:16,970 S6: into the national news back when the state of Indiana passed. 350 00:19:16,970 --> 00:19:20,609 S6: It's the state version of the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, 351 00:19:20,609 --> 00:19:24,070 S6: which would have given a slight bit of protection To 352 00:19:24,109 --> 00:19:27,590 S6: religious people who were sued for discrimination. Well, when that 353 00:19:27,590 --> 00:19:33,190 S6: happened in 2015, the major corporations like Apple Computers, Salesforce 354 00:19:33,190 --> 00:19:36,350 S6: and others came down like a ton of bricks on 355 00:19:36,350 --> 00:19:38,870 S6: the state of Indiana and said, we will make you 356 00:19:38,869 --> 00:19:43,590 S6: pay an economic price if you don't repeal this bigoted legislation. 357 00:19:43,990 --> 00:19:47,909 S6: So what this lady was seeing was how all the 358 00:19:47,950 --> 00:19:52,950 S6: powerful actors in a society come together to crush individual 359 00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:58,909 S6: religious individuals and people daring to stand against the regime's ideology. 360 00:19:59,190 --> 00:20:01,230 S6: This sort of thing has happened more and more since then. 361 00:20:01,230 --> 00:20:04,550 S6: This was the first time that major corporations had really 362 00:20:04,550 --> 00:20:07,390 S6: taken sides at the culture war, and it was a 363 00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:10,830 S6: landmark moment. We have seen this happen over and over 364 00:20:10,830 --> 00:20:14,110 S6: again since then, and a lot of us conservatives, we're 365 00:20:14,150 --> 00:20:17,629 S6: kind of blind to it because we've always thought that 366 00:20:17,670 --> 00:20:21,270 S6: the state is bad, business is good. But now that 367 00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:24,970 S6: business is no longer neutral, but rather has moved over 368 00:20:24,970 --> 00:20:28,530 S6: and is affirmatively progressive on LGBT and race and other things. 369 00:20:28,850 --> 00:20:32,290 S6: They have become a greater enemy to religious liberty than 370 00:20:32,290 --> 00:20:33,209 S6: even the state. 371 00:20:33,730 --> 00:20:37,050 S1: Yeah, I absolutely concur. And I'm so thankful you pointed 372 00:20:37,050 --> 00:20:39,129 S1: out the history of what happened with rfrA in Indiana, 373 00:20:39,170 --> 00:20:42,170 S1: because there were lots of companies whose names I will 374 00:20:42,170 --> 00:20:44,929 S1: be gracious and not name here who really threatened Indiana. 375 00:20:44,930 --> 00:20:46,890 S1: But that isn't an isolated case. We saw the same 376 00:20:46,890 --> 00:20:50,410 S1: thing in Georgia when Georgia passed some pro-life legislation. Remember 377 00:20:50,410 --> 00:20:53,090 S1: the brouhaha? All these Hollywood elites said, we're not going 378 00:20:53,130 --> 00:20:55,650 S1: to make films in there anymore. We're going to boycott Georgia. 379 00:20:55,650 --> 00:20:59,169 S1: ET cetera. ET cetera. That's another classic example of woke capitalism. 380 00:20:59,170 --> 00:21:02,010 S1: But it raises an interesting question. I'm a typical firstborn. 381 00:21:02,010 --> 00:21:04,290 S1: I got a Y at the front of every question 382 00:21:04,290 --> 00:21:07,570 S1: I ask. So you think of the idea of the 383 00:21:07,570 --> 00:21:11,610 S1: free market and capitalism and enterprise and all of those 384 00:21:11,609 --> 00:21:17,050 S1: good things. When and how did capitalism become woke and political? 385 00:21:17,050 --> 00:21:19,689 S1: In other words, I guess Patagonia has the right to 386 00:21:19,730 --> 00:21:21,550 S1: tell me that I'm a cretin. If I don't look 387 00:21:21,550 --> 00:21:23,750 S1: at the world the way they do. I likewise have 388 00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:25,750 S1: the right not to buy their sweatshirts anymore. They were 389 00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:28,550 S1: too expensive anyway. But how did all of this happen? 390 00:21:30,830 --> 00:21:32,950 S6: Well, it's a complicated story, but I can tell you this. 391 00:21:32,950 --> 00:21:35,429 S6: I remember back when I was a film critic at 392 00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:37,990 S6: the New York Post back in the late 90s. I 393 00:21:37,990 --> 00:21:41,270 S6: read a piece by my predecessor, Michael Medved, who said 394 00:21:41,310 --> 00:21:44,629 S6: that a lot of people have it completely wrong about Hollywood. 395 00:21:44,830 --> 00:21:48,470 S6: They people say that Hollywood would only make liberal movies 396 00:21:48,670 --> 00:21:51,590 S6: if the liberal movies made money, and if conservative movies 397 00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:54,189 S6: made money, well, Hollywood would make that too, because money 398 00:21:54,190 --> 00:21:57,709 S6: is its bottom line. That's just not true, said Michael Medved. 399 00:21:57,830 --> 00:22:01,310 S6: In fact, these people who run these elite institutions, they 400 00:22:01,350 --> 00:22:04,790 S6: want more than anything else, the respect of their peers. 401 00:22:05,030 --> 00:22:07,669 S6: I can remember back about ten years ago, ten, 15 402 00:22:07,670 --> 00:22:10,990 S6: years ago, when gay marriage was first starting to be debated. 403 00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:13,590 S6: I was at a journalism conference and ran into the 404 00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:16,510 S6: publisher of a major newspaper in a conservative part of 405 00:22:16,510 --> 00:22:19,890 S6: the country. This newspaper had taken on a lot of 406 00:22:19,890 --> 00:22:23,810 S6: pro LGBT advocacy. And I remember asking him, why are 407 00:22:23,810 --> 00:22:27,570 S6: you doing this? Newspaper circulation is falling everywhere. It's falling 408 00:22:27,570 --> 00:22:30,850 S6: off a cliff. Why would you deliberately antagonize your readers? 409 00:22:31,050 --> 00:22:33,890 S6: He looked at me and got this fire in his eyes, 410 00:22:34,170 --> 00:22:37,330 S6: and he said, Janet, we don't need bigots as readers. 411 00:22:37,930 --> 00:22:40,609 S6: I thought, this is amazing. Here is a man whose 412 00:22:40,609 --> 00:22:43,690 S6: business is falling apart in front of him. But still, 413 00:22:43,690 --> 00:22:47,130 S6: it's more important to him to be politically correct than 414 00:22:47,130 --> 00:22:49,170 S6: it is to save his own business. 415 00:22:50,210 --> 00:22:52,810 S1: Wow. Okay, so let me flip that on its head. 416 00:22:53,010 --> 00:22:55,490 S1: If that's how convicted they are to their worldview and 417 00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:57,490 S1: committed they are to their worldview. What does that say 418 00:22:57,490 --> 00:23:00,889 S1: to us as Christians? In other words, if we're willing 419 00:23:00,930 --> 00:23:04,130 S1: to say this far and no farther, and this is 420 00:23:04,130 --> 00:23:06,170 S1: where we draw the line. So in other words, we 421 00:23:06,210 --> 00:23:08,929 S1: talked before about the pizza company in Indiana. I mentioned 422 00:23:08,970 --> 00:23:10,889 S1: a sweatshirt company and the list goes on and on 423 00:23:10,890 --> 00:23:13,290 S1: and on. That's what we call our second vote. I 424 00:23:13,290 --> 00:23:14,970 S1: vote once in the ballot box, but I can vote 425 00:23:14,970 --> 00:23:17,990 S1: with my dollar as well. Am I able to stop 426 00:23:17,990 --> 00:23:20,710 S1: some of this by saying money doesn't talk? It screams 427 00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:22,389 S1: and I'm going to vote with my dollar. 428 00:23:24,910 --> 00:23:26,790 S6: You know, I think we could in theory, but we 429 00:23:26,790 --> 00:23:29,670 S6: actually don't do it. We Christians, you know, the threat 430 00:23:29,670 --> 00:23:33,590 S6: of a Christian boycott. It's it's a paper tiger, I'm 431 00:23:33,590 --> 00:23:37,989 S6: sorry to say. And there's there's so few places to 432 00:23:38,030 --> 00:23:42,830 S6: go now where companies aren't embracing wokeness. But you speak 433 00:23:42,830 --> 00:23:44,949 S6: to a different to a deeper point here. Do you 434 00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:48,870 S6: remember the great book by Whittaker Chambers? Witness? He had 435 00:23:48,869 --> 00:23:51,790 S6: been a communist and came out of communism in the 50s. 436 00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:55,950 S6: Chambers became a Christian, but he wrote in witness that 437 00:23:55,950 --> 00:23:57,830 S6: he thought that Christians were going to lose, that the 438 00:23:57,830 --> 00:24:00,190 S6: communists were going to win because the communists were willing 439 00:24:00,230 --> 00:24:03,590 S6: to suffer for their belief. It was evil and wrong. 440 00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:04,990 S6: But the fact that they were willing to put their 441 00:24:04,990 --> 00:24:06,869 S6: lives on the line for it, and so many of 442 00:24:06,869 --> 00:24:09,470 S6: us Christians weren't meant that we were going to lose. 443 00:24:10,350 --> 00:24:12,910 S1: Rod, you write about this, and I think perhaps this 444 00:24:12,910 --> 00:24:15,369 S1: is the most powerful part of the book, which is 445 00:24:15,609 --> 00:24:18,490 S1: a reevaluation of the concept of suffering and what may 446 00:24:18,530 --> 00:24:21,650 S1: be required of us in the days ahead. The book 447 00:24:21,650 --> 00:24:25,650 S1: is stunningly important. It is called Live Not by Lies 448 00:24:25,850 --> 00:24:29,369 S1: a manual for Christian Dissidents. Rod Dreher is the author 449 00:24:29,369 --> 00:24:31,050 S1: and our guest, and I'm so glad I have more 450 00:24:31,050 --> 00:24:33,250 S1: time with him because there's so many more questions back 451 00:24:33,250 --> 00:24:44,169 S1: after this. The Bible says the Word of God illuminates 452 00:24:44,170 --> 00:24:46,210 S1: our walk through life. It's a lamp to our feet 453 00:24:46,210 --> 00:24:48,290 S1: and a light to our path. Without it, we stumble 454 00:24:48,290 --> 00:24:50,970 S1: and fall in the market with Janet Partial is designed 455 00:24:50,970 --> 00:24:52,490 S1: to help you look at the headlines of the day 456 00:24:52,490 --> 00:24:55,170 S1: through the lens of Scripture. When you become a partial partner, 457 00:24:55,170 --> 00:24:57,649 S1: you help to make this broadcast possible, and as a 458 00:24:57,650 --> 00:25:00,690 S1: partial partner, you'll receive exclusive benefits. So why not become 459 00:25:00,690 --> 00:25:04,410 S1: a partial partner today? Call 877 Janet 58 or go 460 00:25:04,410 --> 00:25:11,770 S1: to in the market with Janet Parshall. If you're just 461 00:25:11,770 --> 00:25:14,230 S1: joining us, welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. 462 00:25:14,270 --> 00:25:16,310 S1: But take my advice. You are going to want to 463 00:25:16,350 --> 00:25:19,389 S1: download the podcast of the entire hour. Easy to do. 464 00:25:19,430 --> 00:25:22,190 S1: You go to in the market with Janet Parshall left 465 00:25:22,190 --> 00:25:26,110 S1: hand side two words. Past programs download this program in 466 00:25:26,109 --> 00:25:28,550 S1: its entirety or any of the two hours we do 467 00:25:28,550 --> 00:25:31,750 S1: every day. Going back a full year this hour is 468 00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:34,750 S1: crucial to help you understand the days and the times 469 00:25:34,750 --> 00:25:36,710 S1: in which we live. How often have I quoted Billy 470 00:25:36,710 --> 00:25:39,150 S1: Graham who said, you go through life with the newspaper 471 00:25:39,150 --> 00:25:41,670 S1: in one hand and the Bible in the other. If 472 00:25:41,670 --> 00:25:45,550 S1: you are keenly cognizant, being the good farmer and sailor 473 00:25:45,550 --> 00:25:47,909 S1: that Jesus told you to be, you're paying attention to 474 00:25:47,910 --> 00:25:50,869 S1: what's happening all around you. It's far too simplistic. I 475 00:25:50,869 --> 00:25:53,830 S1: will repeat myself to say that you're witnessing some sort 476 00:25:53,830 --> 00:25:57,710 S1: of cultural or political shift. This is rather a profoundly 477 00:25:57,710 --> 00:26:02,230 S1: dangerous cultural shift, and in the words of Alexander Solzhenitsyn, 478 00:26:02,230 --> 00:26:05,950 S1: we must not live not by lives. That's a double negative. 479 00:26:05,990 --> 00:26:09,150 S1: I'll let Alexander Solzhenitsyn's words speak for themselves. It's also 480 00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:12,290 S1: the title of Rod's brand new book. He's senior editor 481 00:26:12,290 --> 00:26:15,970 S1: at the American Conservatives. His works have been in multiple 482 00:26:15,970 --> 00:26:18,290 S1: newspapers The Wall Street Journal, The Weekly Standard, to name 483 00:26:18,290 --> 00:26:20,570 S1: a few. He's written and edited for the New York Post. 484 00:26:20,609 --> 00:26:23,330 S1: You heard him reference our mutual friend Michael Medved, the National, 485 00:26:23,369 --> 00:26:26,450 S1: The Dallas Morning News, National Review, the list goes on. 486 00:26:26,450 --> 00:26:30,490 S1: But this book has everybody talking because Rod's not afraid 487 00:26:30,690 --> 00:26:33,050 S1: to live by truth, to stand for truth, and he's 488 00:26:33,050 --> 00:26:36,570 S1: calling it as it is. He understands that for many 489 00:26:36,570 --> 00:26:38,730 S1: of us, we'd rather just keep our mouth closed, go 490 00:26:38,730 --> 00:26:41,490 S1: about our business, not make any waves. But is there 491 00:26:41,490 --> 00:26:44,290 S1: a time when we're going to be told no longer 492 00:26:44,330 --> 00:26:47,210 S1: be complicit in the lies? The lives must not live 493 00:26:47,210 --> 00:26:50,410 S1: through us? That was Solzhenitsyn's warning to us. And right now, 494 00:26:50,410 --> 00:26:54,770 S1: we're seeing this soft totalitarianism manifest itself in so many ways. 495 00:26:54,770 --> 00:26:57,850 S1: We've talked about woke capitalism, rod. We talked about academia. 496 00:26:58,090 --> 00:27:01,690 S1: But you chillingly point out that something that has me 497 00:27:01,690 --> 00:27:04,370 S1: tremendously concerned, it's the work that my husband does on 498 00:27:04,369 --> 00:27:09,230 S1: Capitol Hill, and that's the rise of surveillance capitalism We 499 00:27:09,230 --> 00:27:13,109 S1: have acquiesced so readily. You talk about the frog in 500 00:27:13,109 --> 00:27:16,030 S1: the boiling pot of water. It's an oft used and 501 00:27:16,030 --> 00:27:19,949 S1: perhaps overused overuse illustration, but we are willing to surrender 502 00:27:19,950 --> 00:27:23,470 S1: just about anything for convenience. I don't think my children 503 00:27:23,470 --> 00:27:25,550 S1: even know what a loss of privacy looks like, because 504 00:27:25,550 --> 00:27:27,870 S1: they've given it up so quickly. Talk to me about 505 00:27:27,869 --> 00:27:30,909 S1: how this works into the idea of soft totalitarianism. 506 00:27:32,430 --> 00:27:35,389 S6: You know, I was sitting in an apartment in Prague 507 00:27:35,390 --> 00:27:38,870 S6: with Kamila Bendova, whose husband went for four years to 508 00:27:39,030 --> 00:27:43,030 S6: prison for his dissident activities. And she's an older woman now. 509 00:27:43,030 --> 00:27:45,270 S6: And she said to me, you know, I don't understand 510 00:27:45,270 --> 00:27:48,950 S6: why so many young people, especially young Americans, are willing 511 00:27:48,990 --> 00:27:52,750 S6: to surrender their privacy by using smartphones, that we know 512 00:27:52,750 --> 00:27:54,950 S6: that companies that are open about this, they take all 513 00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:58,109 S6: the data they can from these smartphones and store it 514 00:27:58,109 --> 00:28:00,070 S6: so they can figure out how to sell us things. 515 00:28:00,310 --> 00:28:02,510 S6: Kamila said, I don't know why you do this. If 516 00:28:02,550 --> 00:28:05,270 S6: you've been through what we've been through in this country, 517 00:28:05,310 --> 00:28:08,850 S6: you would know that But it's never an innocent thing 518 00:28:08,890 --> 00:28:12,450 S6: to give up information. You might think, oh, I'm never 519 00:28:12,450 --> 00:28:14,570 S6: going to do anything wrong. I don't know why it 520 00:28:14,570 --> 00:28:17,570 S6: should matter to me that they have this information. She 521 00:28:17,570 --> 00:28:21,170 S6: said they will find a reason to use it against you. 522 00:28:21,369 --> 00:28:25,050 S6: And what's happening is what you call surveillance capitalism. That's 523 00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:28,690 S6: something that this Harvard business professor, Shoshana Zuboff, she coined 524 00:28:28,690 --> 00:28:32,090 S6: the term to describe the way we do business now, 525 00:28:32,090 --> 00:28:36,530 S6: the way companies like Amazon, Google and others gather information 526 00:28:36,530 --> 00:28:39,290 S6: about each one of us. Tons of information from the 527 00:28:39,290 --> 00:28:41,250 S6: way we use our computers to the way we use 528 00:28:41,250 --> 00:28:44,770 S6: our credit cards and our smartphones. Store it up, run 529 00:28:44,770 --> 00:28:47,690 S6: it through algorithms, and use it to try to sell 530 00:28:47,690 --> 00:28:51,530 S6: us goods and services. And they're getting so good at 531 00:28:51,530 --> 00:28:55,450 S6: this that they're working on trying to manipulate us without 532 00:28:55,450 --> 00:28:59,050 S6: us even being aware that we were being manipulated. It 533 00:28:59,050 --> 00:29:01,250 S6: should be very, very easy to see how this can 534 00:29:01,250 --> 00:29:04,410 S6: be misused politically. In fact, in the People's Republic of China, 535 00:29:04,410 --> 00:29:08,190 S6: they have an entire system designed to exert political control 536 00:29:08,190 --> 00:29:11,190 S6: based on the data that they gathered from people's smartphones. 537 00:29:11,790 --> 00:29:15,190 S1: Yeah, absolutely. They're just a few steps in front of us. 538 00:29:15,190 --> 00:29:17,150 S1: Let me go back to what you quoted in your book. 539 00:29:17,190 --> 00:29:19,990 S1: You quoted Zuboff who said this power to shape behavior 540 00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:24,190 S1: for others, profit or power is entirely self authorizing. It 541 00:29:24,190 --> 00:29:27,830 S1: has no foundation in democratic or moral legitimacy, as it 542 00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:32,350 S1: usurps decisions, rights and erodes the processes of individual autonomy 543 00:29:32,350 --> 00:29:35,150 S1: that are essential to the foundation of a democratic society. 544 00:29:35,270 --> 00:29:38,390 S1: The message here is simple once I was mine, now 545 00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:42,590 S1: I am theirs. Listen, information is power. That's not rocket science. 546 00:29:42,590 --> 00:29:44,990 S1: So you're going to have giant warehouses where you're storing 547 00:29:44,990 --> 00:29:47,990 S1: all this data. Some people think, well, it's just about profiteering. 548 00:29:47,990 --> 00:29:50,830 S1: It's about helping you decide a better laundry detergent when 549 00:29:50,830 --> 00:29:52,630 S1: you get to the grocery store. Or that clothing store 550 00:29:52,630 --> 00:29:54,750 S1: will pop up if you're in a certain neighborhood on 551 00:29:54,750 --> 00:29:57,750 S1: your phone. It's a lot more than that. It's really 552 00:29:57,750 --> 00:30:00,910 S1: and truly about shaping and molding behavior. Is this not 553 00:30:00,950 --> 00:30:03,110 S1: what we were saying just before the break? It's part 554 00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:05,130 S1: of managing the message, is it not? 555 00:30:06,810 --> 00:30:08,730 S6: It's not only part of managing the message, but it's 556 00:30:08,730 --> 00:30:13,170 S6: part of coercing behavior on the basis of economic rewards. 557 00:30:13,450 --> 00:30:16,090 S6: And in the People's Republic of China, they have the 558 00:30:16,090 --> 00:30:20,130 S6: social credit system, where your access to goods and services 559 00:30:20,130 --> 00:30:24,090 S6: and liberties in China is governed by the social credit 560 00:30:24,130 --> 00:30:27,050 S6: rating you have. If you do things the government says 561 00:30:27,090 --> 00:30:30,730 S6: are socially positive, like downloading the speeches of XI Jinping, 562 00:30:30,770 --> 00:30:33,250 S6: things like that, you get a higher rating, you have 563 00:30:33,250 --> 00:30:36,730 S6: more privileges. If you have a lower social credit rating, 564 00:30:36,730 --> 00:30:39,810 S6: which you can get by simply going to church and 565 00:30:39,810 --> 00:30:42,090 S6: they'll know by your smartphone. If you've been to church, 566 00:30:42,490 --> 00:30:45,650 S6: then you have many fewer freedoms. You know your kids 567 00:30:45,650 --> 00:30:47,210 S6: might not be able to get to college, you can't 568 00:30:47,210 --> 00:30:49,170 S6: get the good jobs, and so on and so forth. 569 00:30:49,570 --> 00:30:52,730 S6: This is how they can control behavior without ever sending 570 00:30:52,730 --> 00:30:55,729 S6: the secret police out. When this comes to this country, 571 00:30:55,730 --> 00:30:58,370 S6: I don't think it's if but when we are going 572 00:30:58,370 --> 00:31:03,030 S6: to see profound effects on the behavior of Christians and conservatives, 573 00:31:03,030 --> 00:31:06,510 S6: and anyone who dissents from the liberal ideology that these 574 00:31:06,510 --> 00:31:09,470 S6: companies are going to impose on us. In fact, we're 575 00:31:09,470 --> 00:31:12,550 S6: already seeing this. There are some. Some banks are refusing 576 00:31:12,550 --> 00:31:16,150 S6: to do business with gun manufacturers. You're seeing some conservative 577 00:31:16,190 --> 00:31:20,790 S6: groups de-platformed for being so-called bigots. According to the Southern 578 00:31:20,790 --> 00:31:24,590 S6: Poverty Law Center. This is just the beginning. And in fact, 579 00:31:24,590 --> 00:31:28,070 S6: in China, it's so bad that because China's becoming a 580 00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:32,590 S6: cashless society, uh, you have to use your phone to 581 00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:36,150 S6: do all your transactions. Well, what happens if you get 582 00:31:36,190 --> 00:31:37,750 S6: on the wrong side of the government? All they have 583 00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:39,710 S6: to do is flip a switch, and you can't participate 584 00:31:39,710 --> 00:31:43,310 S6: in the economy. This is exactly what I think the 585 00:31:43,310 --> 00:31:46,229 S6: Bible means when he said that in the days to come, 586 00:31:46,230 --> 00:31:48,030 S6: you will not be able to buy and sell without 587 00:31:48,030 --> 00:31:49,070 S6: the mark of the beast. 588 00:31:49,390 --> 00:31:52,310 S1: I could not agree with you more. Brilliant use of 589 00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:55,070 S1: words on your part. You called China the Mark of 590 00:31:55,070 --> 00:31:58,310 S1: the East, which I thought was absolutely brilliant. This sort 591 00:31:58,310 --> 00:32:01,850 S1: of techno totalitarianism. If they're doing it, they're just think 592 00:32:01,850 --> 00:32:04,810 S1: how many American companies have supplied the software for them 593 00:32:04,810 --> 00:32:06,090 S1: to be able to do it. So it wouldn't be 594 00:32:06,090 --> 00:32:07,850 S1: very difficult at all for them to be able to 595 00:32:07,890 --> 00:32:11,530 S1: control here. You know, I remember, uh, it was interesting 596 00:32:11,530 --> 00:32:14,810 S1: when The Village Voice, Nat Hentoff said long time ago, 597 00:32:14,810 --> 00:32:17,490 S1: free speech for me, but not for thee. And this 598 00:32:17,490 --> 00:32:19,410 S1: was a man who was a liberal all of his life, 599 00:32:19,410 --> 00:32:22,450 S1: and he never changed. But he recognized the erosion of 600 00:32:22,450 --> 00:32:24,890 S1: free speech and understood that right or left, up or down, 601 00:32:24,890 --> 00:32:27,890 S1: didn't make any difference what your worldview was. That free 602 00:32:27,890 --> 00:32:30,890 S1: speech was the hallmark of a free people. We are 603 00:32:30,890 --> 00:32:34,130 S1: seeing the erosion of free speech like never before. Give 604 00:32:34,170 --> 00:32:36,250 S1: me your thoughts on this and how this works into 605 00:32:36,250 --> 00:32:37,610 S1: soft totalitarianism. 606 00:32:39,170 --> 00:32:41,410 S6: Oh, it's absolutely true. Just today on my blog at 607 00:32:41,410 --> 00:32:44,610 S6: the American Conservative, I was writing about a proposal that 608 00:32:44,610 --> 00:32:47,650 S6: is before the school board in Loudoun County, Virginia, which, 609 00:32:47,770 --> 00:32:50,050 S6: as you know, suburban D.C. is one of the wealthiest 610 00:32:50,050 --> 00:32:54,290 S6: counties there. Uh, the school wants to work in critical 611 00:32:54,330 --> 00:32:58,150 S6: race theory into all their operations. So they have this proposal. 612 00:32:58,150 --> 00:33:01,310 S6: Now that would make it impossible for any teacher or 613 00:33:01,310 --> 00:33:05,070 S6: staff member of the public schools to criticize critical race 614 00:33:05,110 --> 00:33:09,110 S6: theory or any of its workings, even outside of school, 615 00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:13,550 S6: even on their social media. What's more, they are ordering 616 00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:17,990 S6: employees to rat out other employees who do criticize it. Now, 617 00:33:18,030 --> 00:33:20,430 S6: I hope this doesn't pass, but if you go read 618 00:33:20,430 --> 00:33:24,830 S6: the actual proposal, Janet, it's written in this bureaucratese where 619 00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:28,630 S6: ordinary people can't really understand what's being said. And these 620 00:33:29,150 --> 00:33:32,190 S6: are the social justice warriors have a way of using 621 00:33:32,190 --> 00:33:35,590 S6: language to conceal meaning. So they say we just want 622 00:33:35,590 --> 00:33:38,870 S6: equity and peace and harmony. And who doesn't want that? 623 00:33:39,070 --> 00:33:43,710 S6: But it's a way of coercing people to endorse the lie. 624 00:33:43,750 --> 00:33:45,710 S6: And if people stand up against the lie, they're going 625 00:33:45,750 --> 00:33:47,790 S6: to lose their job. This sort of thing is being 626 00:33:47,790 --> 00:33:51,110 S6: multiplied over and over and over again on college campuses, 627 00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:55,510 S6: in workspaces and and even in some churches where people 628 00:33:55,550 --> 00:33:58,000 S6: don't feel free to say what's really on their mind. 629 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,040 S1: Yeah. Absolutely correct. But again, that's a hallmark is it 630 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,720 S1: not of the soft totalitarianism? And could you not fold 631 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,120 S1: the cancel culture into that. In other words, we're going 632 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,160 S1: to we're going to disavow our past. We're going to 633 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,080 S1: reroute the past. That's all another manifestation of this insidious disease, 634 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:14,760 S1: is it not? 635 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,200 S6: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Look, the 1619 project from The New 636 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,239 S6: York Times, exactly where they said openly that they intended 637 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:27,040 S6: to reframe their word, American history to make slavery the 638 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,240 S6: defending slavery, the foundation of America. Well, if that is true, 639 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,719 S6: then it completely delegitimizes everything about America. Well, some people 640 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,880 S6: have been pointing that out. Even some scholars from the 641 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,200 S6: left have pointed out that this is a lie, that 642 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,680 S6: it hasn't stopped it from being adopted by 4500 classrooms nationwide. 643 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:49,400 S6: And Oprah Winfrey and Lionsgate Entertainment signed a deal with 644 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,280 S6: Nikole Hannah-Jones, the founder of the 1619 project, to produce 645 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,860 S6: television and movies based on this absolute lie about American history. 646 00:34:58,219 --> 00:35:01,180 S6: If this becomes the story that's in people's minds about 647 00:35:01,180 --> 00:35:05,060 S6: what America is really about, we're over. We're done. This 648 00:35:05,060 --> 00:35:09,339 S6: is soft totalitarianism. It's we're not we're not seeing jackbooted 649 00:35:09,340 --> 00:35:12,900 S6: thugs from the government go into movie studios and newspapers 650 00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:16,060 S6: and force them to tell these lies. They're doing it 651 00:35:16,260 --> 00:35:18,780 S6: on their own. They're doing it because they want to. 652 00:35:19,780 --> 00:35:23,180 S1: Wow. Amazing. And obviously they feel they have the audience 653 00:35:23,180 --> 00:35:25,020 S1: to be able to do it. But again, when you 654 00:35:25,020 --> 00:35:27,379 S1: look at these regimes, the use and you knew this 655 00:35:27,380 --> 00:35:29,779 S1: writing about film for the New York Post. Rod, the 656 00:35:29,780 --> 00:35:32,980 S1: power of media. This is why we often say, we 657 00:35:32,980 --> 00:35:35,420 S1: tell you to pray for people in Hollywood. The greatest 658 00:35:35,420 --> 00:35:38,380 S1: influencers are not here in Washington, D.C. they're in the 659 00:35:38,380 --> 00:35:41,219 S1: world of entertainment. If barn is right, and I think 660 00:35:41,219 --> 00:35:43,300 S1: he is, we get more of our value Saturday night 661 00:35:43,300 --> 00:35:45,819 S1: at the cineplex than we do Sunday morning from the pulpit. 662 00:35:45,820 --> 00:35:48,379 S1: When we come back. Rod, you give an example of 663 00:35:48,380 --> 00:35:51,259 S1: the Benda family, I loved this. I want to talk 664 00:35:51,260 --> 00:35:53,480 S1: about that. And I want to talk about why we 665 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,480 S1: need a radical reconsideration of the concept of suffering. This 666 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,600 S1: is a tough message, but I'll tell you what. Tough 667 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,040 S1: times require tough choices and tough people. I have said 668 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,439 S1: for how long on this program, it is now time 669 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:11,080 S1: for us to become strong, muscular, courageous Christians. Now back 670 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:29,279 S1: after this. We're visiting with Rod Dreher and his brand 671 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,080 S1: new book, Live Not By Lies. He is the senior 672 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,719 S1: editor at the American Conservative. And I want to, with 673 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,080 S1: the precious few minutes I have left to talk about 674 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,320 S1: Vaclav Benda and his wife, Camilla. They are the parents 675 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,839 S1: of six children, and Vaclav noted that the family is 676 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,239 S1: the bedrock of civilization. You write in your book and 677 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,620 S1: must be nurtured and protected at all costs. That's a 678 00:36:50,620 --> 00:36:54,140 S1: Nehemiah moment when those trumpets sound. Nehemiah says, fight for 679 00:36:54,140 --> 00:36:57,899 S1: your families. So you write how this family, living in 680 00:36:57,900 --> 00:37:02,180 S1: the midst of the totalitarian state, had their family and 681 00:37:02,180 --> 00:37:06,780 S1: used them to survive, to protect one another, and to 682 00:37:06,860 --> 00:37:10,100 S1: teach them how to be resilient, even in very difficult times. 683 00:37:10,140 --> 00:37:11,460 S1: Talk to me about that family. 684 00:37:13,140 --> 00:37:17,419 S6: Oh, an amazing family. They were the only Christians at 685 00:37:17,420 --> 00:37:20,860 S6: the highest level of the Czech dissident movement around Vaclav 686 00:37:20,900 --> 00:37:25,020 S6: Havel in Prague. But the Benda family believed that to 687 00:37:25,060 --> 00:37:28,219 S6: be a Christian did not give you permission to go 688 00:37:28,260 --> 00:37:30,580 S6: hide away and just hope that the government didn't come 689 00:37:30,580 --> 00:37:32,460 S6: after you. That's what a lot of Czech Christians did 690 00:37:32,500 --> 00:37:35,620 S6: under persecution. They believed that to serve Christ you had 691 00:37:35,620 --> 00:37:38,259 S6: to serve others, and you had to serve the truth publicly. 692 00:37:38,460 --> 00:37:42,260 S6: And they taught this to their children. Vaclav would tell 693 00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:45,020 S6: tell the kids when they would come home from school. 694 00:37:45,140 --> 00:37:47,260 S6: He would ask them, what was your day like? And 695 00:37:47,300 --> 00:37:49,239 S6: they would tell them about the things they had heard 696 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,280 S6: during the day, and he would point out to them 697 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,120 S6: what were lies and why they were lies. But the 698 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,840 S6: most interesting thing I got from this family was talking 699 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:01,080 S6: to Camilla, the widow of Vaclav, and she said that 700 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,359 S6: even when her husband was in prison and she was 701 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,640 S6: teaching college, she would read to these kids, her six kids, 702 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,960 S6: for at least two hours a day. I said, oh, 703 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,920 S6: that's fascinating. What did you read them? She said, well, 704 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,680 S6: I read to the myths, I read them literature, and 705 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,680 S6: I read a lot of Tolkien. I said, Tolkien y Tolkien. 706 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,160 S6: She looked at me straight in the eyes and said, Janet, 707 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,600 S6: because we knew that Mordor was real. 708 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:23,320 S1: Yes. 709 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,160 S6: What I got from that is she's saying that we 710 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,360 S6: have to build up the moral imagination of our children 711 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,359 S6: with beautiful stories, things that are true, things that you 712 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,440 S6: couldn't get in the communist schools. But they were there, 713 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,759 S6: and these kids had to remember who they were through 714 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,680 S6: the stories that the West has always loved, but the 715 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,440 S6: communist regime suppressed. 716 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,220 S1: Now, let me expand on that quote from what they said. 717 00:38:47,219 --> 00:38:50,460 S1: Why Tolkien? You asked them because they know Mordor was real. 718 00:38:50,460 --> 00:38:53,420 S1: We felt that their story, that of the hobbits and 719 00:38:53,420 --> 00:38:56,940 S1: others resisting the evil Sauron, was our story, too. Tolkien's 720 00:38:56,940 --> 00:38:59,899 S1: dragons are more realistic than a lot of things we 721 00:38:59,900 --> 00:39:03,700 S1: have in this world. Absolutely stunning. You talk about the 722 00:39:03,700 --> 00:39:07,740 S1: family shows us the fruitful fellowship of love, the gift 723 00:39:07,739 --> 00:39:11,779 S1: of freedom, the dignity of the individual. So family is 724 00:39:11,780 --> 00:39:15,780 S1: worth fighting for. And herein lies some hope. But there's 725 00:39:15,780 --> 00:39:17,900 S1: going to be a cost. And this is where I 726 00:39:18,060 --> 00:39:20,540 S1: pivot to the part about suffering, right? I don't know 727 00:39:20,540 --> 00:39:22,100 S1: what it is. We do a lot of conversations on 728 00:39:22,100 --> 00:39:25,140 S1: this program about the persecuted church, a because we're called 729 00:39:25,140 --> 00:39:26,740 S1: to do that. When one part of the body hurts, 730 00:39:26,739 --> 00:39:28,460 S1: we all hurt. We're to pray for those being led 731 00:39:28,460 --> 00:39:32,500 S1: away in chains, the scriptures say, but also because everywhere else, 732 00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:34,700 S1: except in the West, when you decide that you're going 733 00:39:34,739 --> 00:39:37,580 S1: to put your faith in Christ, you expect suffering is 734 00:39:37,580 --> 00:39:40,259 S1: part of the deal. In the West, we don't. We 735 00:39:40,260 --> 00:39:43,420 S1: have this terrible idea that suffering is either is a 736 00:39:43,420 --> 00:39:46,000 S1: bad god or I've done something wrong, as opposed to, 737 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,239 S1: if I can borrow from C.S. Lewis. This is part 738 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,839 S1: of the whole package. Talk to us about how we 739 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,359 S1: prepare for suffering. 740 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,239 S6: Well, Solzhenitsyn said, one of the most shocking lines in 741 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,800 S6: the Gulag Archipelago is bless you, prison, for having been 742 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,080 S6: in my life, because it was the experience of suffering 743 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,520 S6: in the Gulag that led Solzhenitsyn to Christ and led 744 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,680 S6: him to a deeper understanding of what it meant to 745 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,480 S6: be a man and what it meant to love and 746 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,000 S6: to serve others. I think that it is the common 747 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,319 S6: testimony of every one of these Christians I talk to 748 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,799 S6: in the Eastern Bloc. They say that if we are 749 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,360 S6: not prepared to suffer for our faith and for our Lord, 750 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,280 S6: then we're going to be crushed. Yuri Sipko, this Russian 751 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,680 S6: Baptist pastor whose family was all taken away to the 752 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,160 S6: Gulag back in the 30s. He told me in Moscow 753 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,240 S6: that without being willing to suffer and even die for Christ, 754 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,480 S6: it's just hypocrisy. It's just a search for comfort. We 755 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,380 S6: shouldn't seek suffering out, but we have to be ready 756 00:40:43,580 --> 00:40:46,420 S6: to accept it when it comes and not just accept it, 757 00:40:46,420 --> 00:40:51,020 S6: but to see it as a possibility for our own sanctification. 758 00:40:51,460 --> 00:40:55,060 S6: This hero of my book, Doctor Sylvester, who was a 759 00:40:55,060 --> 00:40:58,259 S6: pillar of the underground church in Czechoslovakia. He said that 760 00:40:58,260 --> 00:41:00,739 S6: when he was put in prison in the 50s, he 761 00:41:00,739 --> 00:41:03,739 S6: had to resolve not to feel sorry for himself. He said, 762 00:41:03,739 --> 00:41:07,180 S6: I saw myself as God's probe. I was here to 763 00:41:07,219 --> 00:41:10,299 S6: learn what it meant to suffer as Christ suffered, and 764 00:41:10,300 --> 00:41:13,299 S6: to serve others and to serve him. That man came 765 00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:17,340 S6: out of prison after ten years of being tortured and beaten, 766 00:41:17,340 --> 00:41:19,620 S6: and he didn't hate his captors, but he went out 767 00:41:19,620 --> 00:41:22,500 S6: of that prison, and he evangelized, and they built up 768 00:41:22,500 --> 00:41:23,739 S6: the underground church. 769 00:41:24,980 --> 00:41:27,900 S1: Just amazing. You talk about Richard Wurmbrand, and we know 770 00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:30,419 S1: his story so well. And as the founder of voice 771 00:41:30,420 --> 00:41:33,060 S1: of the martyrs, what he went through. Again, not hating 772 00:41:33,060 --> 00:41:36,300 S1: his captors, I was thrilled that you talked about Terrence 773 00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:38,859 S1: Malick's movie A Hidden Life. I cried through the whole 774 00:41:38,860 --> 00:41:42,680 S1: thing because the question the viewer must ask themselves over 775 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,440 S1: and over and over again is could I say no, 776 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,720 S1: no matter what it would cost me? Would I not 777 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,839 S1: bow in acquiescence to a state whose actions were nefarious 778 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,439 S1: and antithetical to what I knew to be truth, as 779 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,839 S1: found in Scripture and the story of this man? By 780 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,360 S1: the way, a whole lot of evangelicals don't know his story, 781 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,400 S1: and I think Malik did an excellent job of putting 782 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,560 S1: it out there so that we could understand that you 783 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:07,640 S1: have to count the cost. And that's what he did. 784 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,239 S6: Yeah. He did. Franz Jagerstatter is his name. He was 785 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,200 S6: a simple Austrian Catholic farmer who lived in the Alps 786 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,600 S6: in a little rural village, and the world found him there. 787 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,520 S6: The Nazis found him there when Nazism came to town. 788 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:24,839 S6: He was the only one, he and his family who 789 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,839 S6: recognized the Antichrist that Hitler was and stood against him. 790 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,120 S6: All the others in town, even the churchgoers, uh, yielded 791 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,000 S6: to Hitler, but not him. And he ended up giving 792 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,080 S6: his life for his faith because he refused to swear 793 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,580 S6: allegiance to Hitler. I think about Jagerstatter and all these 794 00:42:41,580 --> 00:42:45,580 S6: other people I talked to for this book, Janet, and 795 00:42:45,580 --> 00:42:49,420 S6: all of them said yes to Christ and no to 796 00:42:49,620 --> 00:42:53,339 S6: totalitarianism because of the way they had lived before the 797 00:42:53,380 --> 00:42:56,140 S6: evil came about. And if we're not living in a 798 00:42:56,140 --> 00:42:59,859 S6: sacrificial way as Christians now under freedom, we're not going 799 00:42:59,860 --> 00:43:02,540 S6: to have what it takes when the secret police come 800 00:43:02,540 --> 00:43:05,379 S6: to our door, or we get a threat from our 801 00:43:05,380 --> 00:43:07,859 S6: boss that we either sign on to this thing that 802 00:43:07,860 --> 00:43:09,900 S6: we know to be a lie or we get a 803 00:43:09,900 --> 00:43:10,500 S6: pink slip. 804 00:43:11,180 --> 00:43:13,540 S1: Well, there's so many things I want to ask you. 805 00:43:13,540 --> 00:43:15,100 S1: Let me just end on this note. I don't know 806 00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:17,580 S1: what the future holds. I just know who holds the future. 807 00:43:17,780 --> 00:43:19,580 S1: But I've also read that book that says there will 808 00:43:19,580 --> 00:43:21,660 S1: be some big shadows in the land. I hear you 809 00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:24,259 S1: saying through this book, loud and clear. No, what I 810 00:43:24,260 --> 00:43:27,580 S1: believe and why I believe it, which is absolutely Christian orthodoxy, 811 00:43:27,860 --> 00:43:31,259 S1: and then live my life with authentic Christianity, is that 812 00:43:31,260 --> 00:43:32,740 S1: our only hope for the days ahead? 813 00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:37,100 S6: That is, our only hope in Christ is our only hope, 814 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,279 S6: And we shouldn't be optimistic and think that everything's going 815 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,359 S6: to work out in the end. Rather, we should be 816 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,799 S6: hopeful like Christians are, and know that even if we 817 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,480 S6: suffer martyrdom, as long as we do it united to Christ, 818 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,040 S6: the Lord will use it for good. 819 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:54,360 S1: Yeah. Amen and amen. Rod. Stellar book I. I just 820 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,319 S1: pray that God uses it in a powerful way to 821 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,960 S1: wake up a sleeping church, to stir a culture, to 822 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,280 S1: recognize that that odious fog has worked its way under 823 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,720 S1: the church house door, the school door, and the open 824 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,320 S1: door of business. And that while there is still daylight, 825 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,439 S1: we will let our light so shine. Rod. Thank you. 826 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:14,440 S1: Powerfully important book, live not by Lies, a manual for 827 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,440 S1: Christian Dissidents. Learn more by going to my website. In 828 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,800 S1: the market with Janet. Food for thought. And I'll end 829 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,920 S1: with something that Esther heard a long time ago. Who knows? 830 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,319 S1: But maybe you've been called for such a time as this. 831 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:28,640 S1: We'll see you next time, friends.