S1: Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
S1: and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
S1: and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
S1: But before you go, I want to tell you about
S1: this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
S1: And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
S1: going out into the night sky and looking up and
S1: seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
S1: about God? And are you not in a moment of
S1: awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
S1: of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
S1: that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
S1: wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
S1: of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
S1: book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
S1: from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
S1: a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
S1: this sense of awe through the work that they do.
S1: In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
S1: it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
S1: because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
S1: to walk through the chapters written by people who all
S1: have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
S1: to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
S1: amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
S1: just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
S1: for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll
S1: send it right off to you as my way of
S1: saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or
S1: you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S1: When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner.
S1: Those are people who give every single month at a
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S1: but in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter
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S1: my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58 or the website
S1: in the market with Janet Parshall. Consider becoming a partial
S1: partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you
S1: ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2: When we all get to heaven. What a day of
S2: rejoicing that will be. When we all see Jesus, we'll
S2: sing and shout the victory.
S1: Do you believe that? Do you believe that with all
S1: your heart? Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
S1: Guess what? That's a big clue. We're going to spend
S1: the hour talking about heaven. Oh, really? When's the last
S1: time you thought about heaven? Okay. You're coming home from work.
S1: You're in that busy hour trying to get dinner on
S1: the table. The kids are running around. Life is too
S1: much with me. As the poet says, that's the last
S1: thing you're doing is thinking about heaven. And yet, if
S1: we have a perspective on heaven, if we look forward
S1: to that day when we will be absent from the
S1: body and present with the Lord. Just talking among ourselves
S1: here for a minute, do you think? Do you just
S1: think it might have an impact on the way we
S1: would live, the choices we would make now, the things
S1: we would do. And why is it that we, in
S1: our oh so busy lives here in the 21st century,
S1: just don't take the time to think about heaven? Well,
S1: that's what we're going to do this entire hour, and
S1: we're going to spend the hour with Doctor Matthew McCullough,
S1: who serves as pastor of Edgewood Church in Nashville, Tennessee.
S1: Before joining with Edgefield, he taught to. He helped to
S1: plant Trinity Church near Vanderbilt University and served as pastor
S1: there for a decade. He and his wife first moved
S1: to Nashville for graduate school at Vanderbilt, where he got
S1: it completed. PhD in American religious history. That I bet
S1: was fascinating. He's the author of three books, including Remembered
S1: Death The Surprising Path to Living Hope, and remember Heaven,
S1: the book we're talking about today, meditations on the World
S1: to Come for life in the meantime. He also writes
S1: on occasion for nine marks in the Gospel Coalition. So, Matt,
S1: the warmest of welcomes. Thank you so very much for
S1: being here. I got to go back to the PhD.
S1: So if the PhD was in American religious history in
S1: curious minds. Want to know what was your dissertation about?
S3: Oh, do you really want to know, though, Janet? Because
S3: I'm so happy to talk to you about this. It
S3: has been a long time since anyone has asked me
S3: that question. Okay. So I studied American religious history and
S3: focused my research on studying Christian nationalism among American pastors
S3: during the Spanish American War of 1898. Now you tell
S3: me how much more you want to know about that.
S1: Well, obviously, I bet the first thing that went through
S1: people's minds was there listening all across the country is
S1: they're thinking, I thought American or Christian nationalism was something
S1: that we talk about now, but certainly had no manifestations
S1: in the early years of our short 250 year history.
S1: And yet, with pinpoint specificity, you go exactly to an
S1: era where this was taking place. How did it manifest
S1: itself then?
S3: Well, this was a war, the Spanish-American War. It was
S3: a war in which America, for the very first time,
S3: fought beyond continental borders for the justification of freeing someone
S3: else who was under an oppression they couldn't escape on
S3: their own. So it got its start with concern about
S3: how the Spanish were treating the Cubans and what was
S3: at the time, a Spanish colony. And then a lot
S3: of the action took place, actually, on the other side
S3: of the world, in the Philippines, another Spanish colony that
S3: was taken by the American Navy during during the war,
S3: Puerto Rico was also involved in Guam. And so it
S3: was a different kind of war than people had had
S3: much time to to think about or reflect on before. And, um,
S3: the pastors had a lot to say about it. They
S3: used columns in their religious newspapers. They used their their
S3: weekly sermons oftentimes to talk about the that justification and
S3: what it means to be a country called to, to
S3: set other people free. Uh, you know, it was, uh,
S3: probably because it was unprecedented. I think it stirred up
S3: a lot more rhetoric than, than maybe would have would
S3: have been present otherwise, even though the war didn't last
S3: very long. Just four months total of fighting. Uh, it
S3: it was very, very prominent in, in the nation's press
S3: and in their pulpits for that whole time.
S1: Absolutely fascinating.
S3: They ended up coming up with a lot of arguments
S3: that would be very influential in the First World War,
S3: which obviously was very much more influential than the Spanish
S3: American War overall. So.
S1: But a precursor, an important precursor.
S3: Exactly.
S1: Wow. So a couple of things come to mind when
S1: we talk about Christian nationalism today. It immediately connotes a
S1: negative response. The way when you talk about what was
S1: happening in this war and you say that it worked
S1: its way into the pulpits. Was it how did that
S1: manifest itself in what the pastors were saying at that time?
S1: Were they encouraging our involvement? Were they going to the
S1: transcendence of trying to help liberate a captive people? Exactly.
S1: How did it was it maybe a better way to
S1: ask the question is, did it have the same sort
S1: of shadows of what we see today, or is it different?
S3: I'm sure that the answer is both. In some ways
S3: it's similar, but there was definitely some uniquenesses to that time.
S3: In particular, the fact that that for the very first time,
S3: Americans were trying to get their minds around fighting for
S3: people who weren't Americans, ostensibly to to give them the
S3: freedom that Americans enjoy. I mean, there was a lot
S3: of focus among Christian pastors on things like the Good
S3: Samaritan parable that was applied to the nation's foreign policy
S3: for the first time that I know of during this war. Um,
S3: even some even went as far as to appeal to,
S3: you know, Christ on the cross, laying down his life
S3: to save others. Uh, to say that, you know, this
S3: nation ought to to lay down its lives for the
S3: sake of those who can't save themselves so close to
S3: our national borders. And, you know, I mean, I think my.
S3: You didn't ask me this, Janet, but I'm just going
S3: to say, I think my, my read on those guys
S3: at that time was that their hearts were, for the
S3: most part in the right place. Whatever was going on
S3: in the highest echelons of power, I think most of
S3: the guys I read thought this was good for the
S3: world because it would be good for for neighbors they
S3: hadn't met yet. Um, I do see it as a
S3: tragic tale, though, because I think where they went wrong
S3: was in assuming that we'd be able to intervene in
S3: those countries without the influence of sin on ourselves, you know.
S3: And what happened was that there were there were rebellions
S3: against American involvement after the Spanish were gone. And sadly,
S3: we ended up using a lot of the same tactics
S3: to put down the rebellion that that the Spanish had
S3: used that got us up in arms over it all
S3: in the first place. And, uh, so I think there's
S3: there's a lot to like about some of the rhetoric
S3: and then a lot to be cautious about, because we
S3: do want to assume that sins in all of us
S3: and we have to be careful. And, um. Yeah.
S1: Fascinating. Are you going to get it published other than
S1: just submitting it? Are you going to publish it?
S3: It was published around the time that I made my
S3: transition from the Academy into the church. A wonderful book
S3: series by the University of Wisconsin Press included it for
S3: publication in their series, so you can find it everywhere.
S3: Books are sold.
S1: Fabulous. Well, I point that out for the history buffs,
S1: and there are many in our audience who would like
S1: to read about that. But what you just told us, Matt,
S1: is such a perfect support of the axiom that says
S1: don't who? Those who study don't study history are doomed
S1: to repeat it. So what were the positives? What were
S1: the negatives, and what can we learn from that particular
S1: chapter of history? I think that's absolutely fascinating, and I'm
S1: so glad I asked. We could spend the rest of
S1: the hour talking about that topic. I find it fascinating,
S1: but when we come back, we are going to talk
S1: about heaven, because I think that's a really good thing
S1: to think about. Matt's got some ideas about why we
S1: don't think about heaven, and maybe you start thinking about
S1: what are the reasons why in your own life, you
S1: haven't set your mind on things above. You're not looking
S1: forward to what that real life is going to be. Hey,
S1: here's a newsflash for you. Whether you're stuck in traffic
S1: or getting dinner on the table. This is not as
S1: good as it gets. Back after this. The questions that
S1: matter most often come while watching a sunset, or listening
S1: to music, or looking into the night sky. That's why
S1: I've chosen. Have you ever wondered, as this month's truth tool?
S1: God draws us to himself through a sense of awe
S1: and wonder, and this book will help you discover how.
S1: As for your copy of. Have you ever wondered when
S1: you'd give a gift of any amount in the market?
S1: Call 877 58. That's eight 7758 or go to in
S1: the market with Janet Parshall.
S4: I am going to hell. I'm not here to stay.
S4: I'm going to heaven. I am going someday.
S1: Amen and amen. Are you ready? Do you know for
S1: sure that you're going someday? Matt McCall is with us.
S1: He serves as a pastor of Edgewood Church in Nashville, Tennessee,
S1: and he joins us to talk about his book, remember Heaven.
S1: Meditations on the World to Come for life in the meantime.
S1: And I really love that subtitle, by the way. So, Matt,
S1: anybody who's ever written knows a little something about the
S1: fact that it's not unlike a pregnancy. You'll have to
S1: relate to this figuratively, not literally. But there's about nine
S1: months gestation and then the labor and delivery and and
S1: your role as a pastor, you know, why would you
S1: write about heaven? And I can hear someone saying, oh,
S1: come on, it's part of the job. He's a pastor.
S1: He's got to talk about heaven. Yeah, but that's not
S1: the same as deciding that you're going to put some
S1: sweat equity into writing and praying over a book that
S1: tells you to remember heaven and write with deep, rich
S1: theology about the subject of heaven. So why did you
S1: choose to do that?
S3: Well, I think the answer to that question goes back
S3: a little bit to what we talked about a moment ago.
S3: Not the Christian nationalism part, but the fact that I,
S3: I got my start in my adult life, in the
S3: academic world, studying church history and studying especially the work of.
S3: Before I got into the to the Christian nationalism lane,
S3: I studied a lot of the work of the Puritans,
S3: both in England and in America, and they've just had
S3: a very deep effect on me and my spirituality and
S3: my approach to my ministry as a pastor. So when
S3: I moved into, uh, serving as a pastor and weakly
S3: looking to preach to my people from the scriptures, you know,
S3: I knew what my job was. My job is to
S3: is to try to help these friends in the lives
S3: they're living. See why Jesus is such wonderfully good news,
S3: why he's relevant to everything. And coming with that background
S3: of of knowing about the way the Puritans did that,
S3: it just became really clear to me early on that
S3: that they saw things that I didn't naturally see, and
S3: that I didn't think people around me naturally saw that
S3: in their culture, it was way more common to talk
S3: about death, the end of life, the inevitable end of
S3: every human life and the world to come. It was
S3: just a central part of how they saw Jesus and
S3: saw themselves and saw a faithful Christian life. And so
S3: I think seeing the contrast there helped me to to
S3: start focusing on this early on in my ministry. And
S3: then it's just become so clear as I've worked my
S3: way through preaching series and one book of the Bible
S3: after another, that the scriptures is just, are just relentlessly
S3: oriented toward the world to come. It's over and over
S3: and over. They take us back there as if it
S3: matters for how we're living now. And I think it
S3: maybe a shorter way to answer the question you asked,
S3: why write a book on this is that I think
S3: the hope of heaven is absolutely crucial for the Christian life,
S3: but that it's very, very difficult to hold on to
S3: and to to work into the details of life. And
S3: I thought it would be good for me and hopefully
S3: good for my friends if I just spend a lot
S3: of time trying to make that connection.
S1: So let me underscore what you write in the book
S1: that underscores what you just said. And let me start
S1: with the first point, because I think it's so salient.
S1: And this is the idea that in the 21st century,
S1: Americans in particular, I don't know if you can say
S1: this globally. I would challenge that. Probably our brothers and
S1: sisters in some of the persecuted countries have a different
S1: perspective on this. But we turn tail. We try to
S1: avoid death at any cost. Cosmetics, you know, take this pill,
S1: sleep on this mattress, get this done to your face. Uh,
S1: you read about billionaires who are doing everything to prolong life.
S1: Scientific studies that will make sure that we can outlive death. Thanks,
S1: but no thanks. By the way, for the record on
S1: that one. And so when you go back to the Puritans,
S1: because death was so prescient, it was there all the time.
S1: They couldn't avoid thinking about it. So part of the
S1: the downside of postmodernism is, is that we fail to
S1: recognize that death is a reality, and we don't talk
S1: about it in polite company. In fact, it should be
S1: avoided at all costs. Why is that not a perspective
S1: that the Christian should strike?
S3: Well, because we want to see the beauty of Jesus
S3: everywhere we can, and it shines most brightly against the backdrop,
S3: the dark backdrop that he came to, to, to shine into.
S3: Like he came here to give us a hope that
S3: death can't crush. He came to redeem us from every
S3: consequence of sin. And death is one of the clearest
S3: and most ever present consequences that we can see in
S3: this life right now. So whenever we hide from death,
S3: we're also we're also avoiding the goodness of the good
S3: news and avoiding our chance to see the power of
S3: Jesus at work all around us. Um, it's also just,
S3: I guess, a simpler, straightforward way to say it is
S3: that the scriptures don't avoid it. Yes. So frequently talk
S3: about death as a as a basic human experience, as
S3: basic as birth and as breathing and as eating and
S3: sleeping like this is this is something we go through.
S3: So it's relevant, um, whether we want to talk about
S3: it or not. And, and so is Jesus in a
S3: way that's much deeper than we often realize.
S1: Yeah, yeah, I love that. I'm picking up on three
S1: points you make in the introduction of the book, because
S1: I think it really serves as a great foundation to
S1: our conversation. The second point that you make about, after
S1: you talk about the fact that we are more insulated
S1: to death than we were in the past, you talk
S1: about the fact that we're also more secular. How does
S1: that impact our perspective on heaven?
S3: Yeah, I mean, here I'm drawing from some philosophers who
S3: have helped me to see things I probably wouldn't have
S3: seen otherwise, even about myself and how I work in
S3: the world. So when the philosopher Charles Taylor talks about
S3: a secular age, he doesn't necessarily he's not necessarily meaning
S3: that everybody, everywhere denies that God exists, but that on
S3: an everyday basis, we don't always have to acknowledge Him
S3: and His existence in order to basically make it through
S3: life that. And we don't have to assume him in
S3: the same way that earlier generations would have had to.
S3: Part of that is, is that so much of our
S3: life is lived through technology. You know, for example, I
S3: am pretty insulated from the weather patterns when it comes
S3: to my dinner table. I don't think often about praying
S3: for rain so that I can eat eat blueberries. I
S3: can get those blueberries delivered to my door in February
S3: if I want to because of, you know, marvels of
S3: modern technology that have that have detached us a bit from,
S3: you know, our, our dependence on every good gift that
S3: comes from above. So in that way, and in many others,
S3: we live surrounded by human achievements that can so often
S3: keep our eyes on on ourselves and what we bring
S3: to the table and blind us to the fact that
S3: we depend on him for everything, and to a world
S3: that's beyond what we see here and now.
S5: Mm.
S1: Doctor Matthew McCullough writes in his book remember Heaven about
S1: the many ways in which getting a right perspective on
S1: heaven has such a profound impact on the way we're
S1: living today. Let's get into some of that when we return.
S1: By the way, the book's right there in my info page,
S1: so you can click on through and learn how to
S1: get your copy. Much more on the topic of heaven
S1: right after this. Doctor Matthew McCullough is with us, pastor
S1: of Edgewood Church, Edgefield church part. Let me get it right.
S1: Edgefield Church in Nashville, by the way. He's the author
S1: of the new book, remember Heaven meditations on the World
S1: to Come for life. In the meantime. So you spend
S1: so much of the book just talking about what happens
S1: when we get the right perspective on heaven, and absolutely
S1: the impact it has on our temporal existence here on earth,
S1: which I think is tremendous. And that's why I wanted
S1: to spend a little bit of time talking about why
S1: the believers I get what the world doesn't talk about it.
S1: They don't even know if there is a heaven or
S1: if they're going there. But for those of us who
S1: profess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believed
S1: in our heart that God has raised him from the dead,
S1: we should be thinking about heaven. So why does thinking
S1: about heaven? Before I go to some of the ways
S1: in which you break this down in the book. Why
S1: do you think it's designed that? When we do think
S1: about heaven, it impacts the way we live? You know,
S1: I've heard someone some people love this saying. Some people
S1: hate it. Uh, you're so heavenly minded. You're no earthly good.
S1: Is that true?
S3: I really don't think so. I assume it could be
S3: true because that is something that someone could struggle with.
S3: Being blind to the needs of the world around them,
S3: or calloused to the to what love calls for. Uh,
S3: and when we see our neighbors in need. But I
S3: think it's more of a caricature than, uh, than anything. Um,
S3: I think that if you follow what the scriptures say
S3: about heaven and look not only at what is being
S3: said about the world to come, but how that hope
S3: is being used, what you'll see is that is that
S3: the New Testament authors are using that hope to help people. Now,
S3: it's always applied to life and the struggles that we
S3: face in the meantime. Um, so, you know, it certainly isn't.
S3: The hope of heaven certainly isn't reducible to any sort
S3: of this worldly good that it produces. It is bigger
S3: than that. It reminds us that the most important things
S3: about life in this world, as it is now, are
S3: how those things relate to the world to come. Uh,
S3: but it the perspective of what God has promised for
S3: our future absolutely affects our lives now, both in giving
S3: us the the grace that we need to to carry
S3: the burdens that come with life in the world as
S3: it is, and also the freedom from thinking. We've got
S3: to squeeze every bit that we can possibly squeeze out
S3: of life now. I think it frees us to be more, uh, more, uh,
S3: sacrificial in our service to other people and more willing to,
S3: to do without so that others can have what they need.
S3: If you get it Properly, it should make you more
S3: useful 100%.
S1: I think part of it check me if I'm wrong
S1: on this, but it seems to me, Matt, that one
S1: of the reasons that we struggle with thinking about heaven
S1: is because we don't understand it. It's not attractive enough
S1: to us to want it. You know, we're still stuck
S1: with cherubic angels on clouds, and we're not sure if
S1: our dog's going to be there. And we slap all
S1: of these things on the nature and characteristics of heaven.
S1: And most people would say, no, like the poet said,
S1: you know, life is too much with me. I don't
S1: really want to think about heaven because I don't know
S1: what I don't know. I know what I know, and
S1: I like it here, and I've got a full experience here.
S1: So I'm not really worried about heaven. Walk me through that.
S1: Because if that's our perspective, maybe we're more hung up
S1: on the geography and the color of the streets than
S1: we are. The fact that we are going to be
S1: in the presence of Jesus. I don't get all the
S1: other stuff. All I know is I will be with him.
S1: Everything else can be a big surprise. I will be
S1: with him. Isn't that the overarching issue here?
S3: It absolutely is, Janet. I mean, there is so much
S3: the Bible doesn't tell us about the world to come
S3: that we would probably like to know if we could
S3: have every question answered. What it does say very, very
S3: clearly is that at the center of that world has
S3: got himself. It's all in revelation 21. What makes heaven
S3: a world of more than we could ever imagine here
S3: in this life? And what makes heaven a world of
S3: no more. Of all the things that bring us down
S3: in this life. Grief and pain and suffering and death.
S3: What makes heaven what it is, is the fact that
S3: God will dwell with us there, that he will be
S3: our light, that the whole earth will be full of
S3: his glory. And we'll see it. See him as He is.
S3: So yeah, I think in Colossians three, Paul sees heaven
S3: as an extension of our longing for heaven, rather our
S3: focus on it as an extension of our love for Jesus.
S3: Our deep desire to be where he is is what
S3: keeps our minds set above, uh, and longing for the
S3: day when he's revealed to us. Uh, so, yeah, I mean,
S3: it's it's a struggle because we, we can see so
S3: vividly all the things this world offers us. We can't
S3: see yet what Jesus has promised. It takes effort. That's why,
S3: I mean, one of the things I say in the
S3: book is that, you know, I think Paul has to
S3: tell us to set our mind on things above precisely
S3: because if he doesn't tell us, we won't do it.
S3: You don't have.
S1: To. Exactly.
S3: I don't have to tell my kids to finish their
S3: ice cream. I do have to tell them to finish
S3: their cauliflower, because the one thing is better for them,
S3: but doesn't seem that way to them. Um, and so
S3: I think Paul expected us to have the struggle that
S3: we have and wanted us to to rise to it
S3: for our good, because it's worth it.
S1: Yeah, I absolutely agree. So to someone and I want
S1: to linger on this point here, because the conversation will
S1: ultimately be moot for most people if they don't understand
S1: what heaven is all about. So we have these wonderfully
S1: interesting conversations that are more imagination than they are theology
S1: about what heaven is going to be like. And we
S1: the minute we get into that, it tells me right
S1: out of the gate that we failed to recognize who
S1: heaven is about, not where or what it's about, but
S1: who it's about. And I don't know about all the
S1: other stuff. I'm I mean, there are things when I go, what?
S1: No rain. I love the rain. What? No oceans. I
S1: love the oceans. And then I think, wait, that's not
S1: what it's about. You're going to be with Jesus, the
S1: unconditional lover of your soul, who knew you before you
S1: breathed your first. He's going to know everything about you,
S1: and I don't. I think I understand, love. I haven't
S1: got a clue what love is until I'm standing in
S1: his presence. And it makes all of those other things interesting,
S1: though they may be, but it diminishes them purposely and
S1: I think necessarily. Am I right or wrong?
S3: I think you're exactly right. But I think another way
S3: to say it is that whatever goodness comes to us
S3: in these things that we want, like the beauty of
S3: the weather, the beauty of of a person that we
S3: love to look at, the joy of a good meal
S3: with friends, whatever good things are coming through. Those experiences
S3: now are just very faint shadows of what it is
S3: to be in his presence. That is his goodness we're
S3: tasting in his world right now.
S1: Exactly. But only.
S3: In part. And then we'll know in full.
S1: Wow. Right out of Scripture to Doctor Matthew McCullough is
S1: with us. His new book is called remember Heaven meditations
S1: on the World to Come for life. In the meantime,
S1: that's the right now, back after this.
S6: In the song of.
S1: Ministry is never a solo effort. You know my voice
S1: because I'm on the radio every day. Look a little
S1: further and you'd see right into the homes of listeners
S1: just like you. Partial partners who give a monthly gift
S1: and make this ministry available. Become a member of the
S1: team today by becoming a partial partner. Call eight 7758
S1: or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall Dot. Oh.
S7: I wanna run on greener pastures. I wanna dance on
S7: higher hills I wanna drink from sweeter waters. In the
S7: misty morning chill. And my soul is getting restless. For
S7: the place where I belong I can't wait to join
S7: the angels Unchained my Heaven song.
S1: Doctor Matthew McCullough is with us. Serves as a pastor
S1: of Edgefield Church in Nashville, Tennessee. Before joining with Edgefield,
S1: he helped to plant Trinity Church near Vanderbilt University and
S1: served as a pastor there for a decade. He and
S1: his wife first moved to Nashville for grad school at Vanderbilt,
S1: where he completed his Ph.D. in American religious history. If
S1: you're just joining us, download the podcast because there's a
S1: fascinating story on his dissertation. Easy peasy. Just go to
S1: where you find your favorite podcasts. And it's in the
S1: market with Janet Parshall. So he's authored three books, including
S1: Remember Death The Surprising Path to Living Hope, and the
S1: One We're Talking About Today, remember Heaven, meditations on the
S1: World to Come for life. In the meantime. So I
S1: want to go back to one of the bound fours
S1: that you talk about in the book. But I was
S1: thinking about something you said just before the break, Matt,
S1: which is so interesting because I don't know what it means.
S1: That's great. I'm thrilled there are mysteries and unanswered questions,
S1: because that means there's so many parts of the symphony.
S1: I still get to hear that they're open phrases, and
S1: that's I'm thrilled I have an eternity and I've got
S1: about just that many questions, so it's going to be
S1: a perfect time frame. But when Paul ascends to the
S1: third heaven, whatever that was, whatever that looks like, he's
S1: given this instruction. You don't tell anybody why? Why does
S1: God tell Paul? Don't tell him.
S3: I don't know if you ever figure that out. You
S3: give me a call, and I'd love to hear what
S3: you found. I have no idea. And I'll be honest,
S3: I should probably stop it right there.
S1: Don't you think? I mean, using my sanctified imagination for
S1: a minute. And I'm not doing sloppy eisegesis here. I'm
S1: not going beyond the pale of Scripture by any means
S1: of the imagination. But it seems to me that maybe
S1: it's because God knew our time was temporal, and there
S1: were things we had to do here, and there were
S1: things we had to learn here before we'd be in
S1: his presence. And maybe then we would just be almost
S1: catatonic in the temporal because we couldn't wait to get
S1: to heaven. In other words, if it's as glorious and
S1: it must be because, I mean, I'm sure that Paul
S1: wanted to say, but he couldn't say. It must be
S1: so magnificent that we just mere mortals with our Mickey
S1: Mouse minds, we couldn't even handle it, it seems to me.
S3: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And
S3: whatever his reasoning is, I mean, I think often of
S3: Psalm 131. And the image that we have of David
S3: there as this one, who doesn't occupy himself with things
S3: too great and too marvelous for him, and therefore lives
S3: as a baby on his mom, who's been weaned and
S3: is calm and quiet and trusting. Uh, so I'm just
S3: I'm trying to redirect myself back to Psalm 131 when
S3: I when I really want to know what Paul saw
S3: that I haven't seen yet.
S1: Yeah. Exactly. Right. Well, in your book does a wonderful
S1: job in helping us do just that. So, for example,
S1: you write about, if we get the right perspective on heaven,
S1: it really helps us with the battle that we wage
S1: every moment of our lives as believers. Speaking of Brother Paul.
S1: And that's dealing with the subject of sin. How does
S1: getting a right perspective and understanding the eternality of my
S1: destination versus the temporal nature of where I am right now?
S1: How in the world does that intersect with the struggle
S1: that I have with the spirit and the flesh all
S1: day long?
S3: Yeah, well, here I'm drawing, especially from what John says
S3: in First John chapter three, and I'm drawing from a
S3: lot of my own experience and experience that I've seen
S3: my friends have with ongoing struggles with sin. And here
S3: it's this I don't know if there is a stronger,
S3: higher barrier to victory over ongoing sin than hopelessness. When I, uh,
S3: I'm not I use this anecdote in the book. I'm
S3: not a handyman. Um, not by a long shot. My
S3: wife does most of that sort of thing and around
S3: our house. And if she can't handle it, I've got
S3: a long list of friends that I call. And I
S3: gave up a long time ago. I used to try
S3: to to to figure things out on my own until
S3: I realized I just don't think I have it in
S3: me for whatever reason. And here's how I learned that
S3: I would try. I would watch a YouTube video. I
S3: would do the things that I was told to do,
S3: and every single time it would take longer than I
S3: thought it was going to take. It was going to
S3: take more money than I expected it to take. I
S3: was probably not going to do it right, and in
S3: the end, I was just going to end up calling
S3: my friend to come over and and fix it anyways.
S3: So I just learned it was better to fail quick
S3: than to fail slow. Fail the easy way, not the
S3: hard way. I know how this ends. I have seen
S3: one after another of my friends struggle in the same
S3: way with sin. I felt it in my own heart.
S3: Where we get up, we try again. We fall again.
S3: We get up. We try again, we fall again. And
S3: you can get this sense that I know where this ends.
S3: Why not just go ahead and give in? Why not
S3: fail the easy way instead of the hard way? And
S3: in first John chapter three, John tells us our future,
S3: that he says we don't know exactly what we're going
S3: to be. Uh, when, when, um, when he appears, because
S3: he's not yet appeared. But we do know that when
S3: he appears, we'll be like him. Whatever he's like, we'll
S3: be like. And he says it's because we'll see him
S3: as he is. And he says, everyone who thus hopes
S3: in him purifies himself as he is pure hope purifies.
S3: And here's what I think he means. I think he
S3: means that, um, that that what will ultimately end our
S3: battle with sin is a vision of the beauty of
S3: God that we cannot look away from. Mm. What what
S3: what keeps us falling to sin now is that God's
S3: competition looks a lot prettier than it really is. And
S3: our heads are constantly being turned by one after another.
S3: God's substitute. We always are tempted to worship creatures instead
S3: of the creator. And part of that is we just
S3: can't see Him as He is right now. When we do,
S3: that battle's over. That war is over because nothing will
S3: ever be able to turn our head from what we
S3: see when we see him. And that will renovate us
S3: from the inside out. Because loving him as he is
S3: with all of our heart, finally, with all of our
S3: heart and all of our soul and mind, um, there
S3: won't be any room left for sin. And I think
S3: what John is saying is you can go ahead and
S3: start getting that purification started now by hoping in him
S3: that I know how this ends. This ends with me
S3: purified by the power and grace and beauty of God.
S3: So why not get up and start fighting again, even
S3: if I've just fallen yesterday? I know how this ends.
S3: It ends in glory.
S1: Amen. Wow. So let me take a. I'm so glad
S1: that you went to one John three two, because that
S1: verse is overwhelming. It really takes your breath away when
S1: you start thinking about it. And there's a question that
S1: I have and and this is why what you write about,
S1: I think, is so true and right and authentic, because
S1: I know that someday I'm going to behold him face
S1: to face. I am in the writing of first John
S1: three two. I am going to see him as he is.
S1: And Matt, I got to tell you, I keep thinking
S1: my first response is I'm going to fall on the
S1: floor to my face in humiliation because I feel like
S1: at that moment when I see him as he truly is,
S1: and I hope I'm wrong on this, that I'm going
S1: to be so aware of the sins I didn't confess
S1: or committed in a cavalier, reckless fashion. because now I'm
S1: standing in front of one who is pure and perfection now,
S1: and there's no condemnation in that verse. That's me superimposing
S1: on that. But walk me through that. How do I
S1: get around that fact? Because I'm just thinking when I
S1: stand with my righteousness, being like filthy rags in front
S1: of him and I'm finally beholding him, it's like, how
S1: do I not realize, oh, what a mess I am.
S3: Well, I think, I think if we had to stand
S3: there and in our own righteousness, then all we would
S3: have is filthy rags. But the beautiful hope of the
S3: gospel is that on that day we stand in Jesus's righteousness.
S3: And right now we claim that by faith and not
S3: by sight. When we look at ourselves now, we see
S3: all that we bring to the table. And it's depressing.
S3: But on that day, we will finally see ourselves as
S3: God sees Jesus. We will see what he sees when
S3: he looks at us, united to Jesus by faith. I
S3: think this is Philippians three is where Paul says, like
S3: I once had a whole long list of on my resume.
S3: Accomplishments that made me stand out from the crowd. But
S3: now I look at those things and I say, rubbish.
S3: They're all worthless. I count them as loss for the
S3: sake of knowing Jesus, the power of his resurrection and
S3: being found in him. I think that's a reference to
S3: the day you're talking about Janet, where you stand before
S3: him and see him as he is on that day.
S3: Paul doesn't want to stand there in his own righteousness,
S3: but only in the righteousness of Jesus. And that, uh,
S3: that means instead of staying there in shame, like we'll
S3: finally be done with it forever. Because when we look
S3: at ourselves, we'll see what God sees. Yes, that's that's
S3: the beauty of his own son.
S1: Doesn't that help also for us to keep a short list,
S1: to realize that that imputed righteousness I have now, I'm
S1: not going to get it there. I have it now.
S1: I have the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. And
S1: when I profess my faith in Jesus Christ, I was
S1: imputed with his righteousness. So that dovetails to me to
S1: the idea. Now, therefore, there is no condemnation for those
S1: in Christ Jesus. It doesn't give me a license to sin.
S1: It reminds me of the power of forgiveness.
S3: Amen. Exactly. Exactly.
S1: So I love the fact and I want to get
S1: into this, and I'm going to come up to a break,
S1: because I think this is such an important point for
S1: so many believers. And we've struggled with it since the
S1: day we walked out of the garden. And you start
S1: with a three word sentence that is profound and truthful.
S1: Humans crave meaning, and what follows from that declaration is
S1: the fact that if we crave meaning, we look for
S1: meaning in what we experience as human beings. And how
S1: in the world do you find meaning in suffering? And
S1: then even worse, the Bible says we're invited to join
S1: in the fellowship of his suffering. You know, I'm not
S1: sure that club has a whole lot of people who've
S1: decided to sign up and join it, but there's an
S1: invitation there. So I want to dig into this issue
S1: of suffering, because here's what I know declaratively, because of
S1: the promises in his perfect word, I'm not going to
S1: have it in heaven. There is going to be no
S1: more suffering. I can't wait for the fact that every
S1: tear will be wiped from every eye. So suffering is
S1: not a part of that experience. It is here. It
S1: is part of what happens when free will brings about
S1: the wages of sin. But I want to know when
S1: I suffer now these, in the words of Scripture, momentary
S1: in light, afflictions. How do I persevere? Press on, knowing
S1: that I'm heaven bound. I think this is a key issue,
S1: and one that Doctor Matt McCullough discusses eloquently in his
S1: new book, remember Heaven meditations on the World to Come
S1: for life. In the meantime, back after this.
S7: No, I can't wait to join the Angels and Save
S7: my Heaven song.
S1: Doctor Matt McCullough is with us. He's the author of
S1: the book remember Heaven Meditations on the world to come.
S1: For life in the meantime. So going right back to
S1: the question I put out just before the break, which
S1: is this. Trying to find meaning in suffering. Again, talk
S1: to me about the bigger picture. How does having a
S1: heavenly perspective, remembering heaven, help me to persevere and endure
S1: with the temporal sufferings of this life?
S3: Well, I think one of the main challenges of the
S3: Christian life is to connect what we're going through to
S3: where we're going, especially when what we're going through feels
S3: like death. Um, I draw a lot from Second Corinthians
S3: four on this, where Paul is writing, we don't lose heart.
S3: It's a bold claim when you hear it in light
S3: of what he says next. Our outer self is wasting away.
S3: That is bleak. This body and everything about our life
S3: under the reign of death, um, continues to to waste away.
S3: But in the meantime, he says, our inner self is
S3: being renewed day by day. He says this light, momentary
S3: affliction is doing work. It is preparing for us an
S3: eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison. So what I
S3: think Paul is doing there is showing us that it
S3: isn't simply that we have to get through hard times
S3: here on earth so that we can enjoy heaven eventually.
S3: That one day it will all be gone. It's precisely
S3: through the suffering that we experience now that Heaven will
S3: be what it is to us in the end, and
S3: we are going to suffer. We need to know what
S3: it's for. We need to know what makes it meaningful.
S3: What's the story in which our suffering sits? One of
S3: the one of the books. It's a secular book that
S3: I that I draw from in the chapter to show
S3: why this meaning making is so important for us is
S3: that it's also basic to our our humanity, like humans do. This.
S3: My dog doesn't doesn't sit around asking questions about his experiences.
S3: He just operates on instinct. When humans suffer, they want
S3: to know why. And Viktor Frankl's book Man's Search for
S3: meaning really helped me on this. He. He was a
S3: psychologist who who lived through Nazi concentration camp and used
S3: his experience in the concentration camp to try to continue
S3: his research into what humans are like, what makes them tick,
S3: how do they get through hard things? He basically just asked,
S3: why did some people give up and die in the
S3: camp and others pursue, even when everything was taken away
S3: from them except their capacity for pain? Um, and he
S3: his conclusion was that the the difference was whether or
S3: not they had something to hope for beyond the camp,
S3: something for which their suffering, um, something that their suffering would,
S3: would produce for them or provide for them could be a,
S3: a person they wanted to get back to. It could
S3: be work they longed to do that they hadn't finished yet,
S3: but they needed something that would keep them going so
S3: that they know this day of pain gets me to
S3: that thing on the other side. So apart from that,
S3: hopelessness is lethal. Um, and, you know, I think he
S3: he spoke better than he realized into the perspective of
S3: the New Testament that Paul knows. He writes what he
S3: writes in Second Corinthians four, because he knows we need
S3: to know what this is all for. This suffering is
S3: not wasted any more than Christ's suffering on the cross
S3: was wasted. The Lord is working in it to prepare
S3: us a weight for a weight of glory that we
S3: wouldn't have otherwise.
S1: Yeah, yeah. And I was thinking when you were talking
S1: to why, every time you read the word hope in
S1: the scriptures, you should circle it. Because it to me,
S1: there's a hint there of the eternal perspective. Hope never fails.
S1: And going to Frankel's very astute observations about why some
S1: people survived and some people didn't. There's a reason why
S1: we're told, in fact, that when you read that passage
S1: about suffering produces perseverance, perseverance, character, character, hope and hope
S1: never fails. There is a delineation out in this growth
S1: experience that we have when we're suffering. And isn't it interesting?
S1: It points to hope because maybe it isn't completely eradicated
S1: right now, but the hope is someday. And the knowledge
S1: is that someday it will be completely eradicated. It's a
S1: perfect segue to talk about suffering, to talk about death. Um,
S1: I have said so many times in my life, Matt,
S1: that I do not know how anybody stands at an
S1: open grave without Jesus. That has to be. And I
S1: don't know, because I've never had that experience. And thanks
S1: be to God. But I don't know how you even
S1: live through the experience of burying a loved one without
S1: Christ in us being the hope of glory. Talk to
S1: me about that.
S3: I totally agree, I cannot imagine it, and it breaks
S3: my heart to think of people having to face that
S3: without Jesus, because no one escapes grief in this life.
S3: The death, the death rate is sitting firmly at 100%,
S3: and it will until Jesus comes back. So you don't
S3: have a choice about whether you grieve. You do have
S3: a choice about whether to grieve with or without hope. Um,
S3: and it goes back to something we talked about earlier
S3: when we. When we choose death avoidance, when we choose
S3: to try to to to hold grief back. As long
S3: as possible rather than, than open our eyes to it,
S3: even before the moment of crisis comes, then we are
S3: holding ourselves back from the context in which Jesus shines
S3: through so beautifully. Because. Because he. I think of John
S3: 11 often, where he basically orchestrates the scene at Lazarus's
S3: tomb by waiting to go and heal him while he
S3: was still alive, so that they might believe that's what
S3: he says. In other words, you need to see the
S3: grip of death on those you love for. For you
S3: to see what I want you to see about me.
S3: That I am the resurrection and the life. That I am.
S3: The one you can hope for, that I am the
S3: only one who can solve this problem. First look at death.
S3: And then through those tears, look at me. Um. And
S3: I think that's what what Paul is doing in first
S3: Thessalonians four when he talks about to those who are grieving.
S3: He urges them not to grieve as those who have
S3: no hope. One of these days he's coming back. And
S3: those of you who have lost, who died in faith,
S3: they will not be left behind. You can see that
S3: you will see them again and and will be caught
S3: up together with them. And we will forever be with
S3: the Lord, centered on him, worshiping him forever. Um, he
S3: directs them to grieve and assumes that they will, so
S3: that their hope activates and gets sweeter and sweeter in
S3: the meantime.
S1: Exactly. You talk about the fact that your grandmother bought
S1: A Grief observed by C.S. Lewis. Tell me that story
S1: because I thought it was precious.
S3: Yeah. One of my it was one of my most
S3: precious books in my library. It's a book that she
S3: gave to me, um, that she had bought sometime in
S3: the 80s. I think she had lost a son who
S3: was killed, uh, fell asleep while he was driving home
S3: from college and and died in the late 70s. And
S3: this book, A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis, is just
S3: full of her underlines and her markings in the margins
S3: and under passages that really helped her. You could tell
S3: from reading it that she read for survival, not just
S3: for for intellectual curiosity and what she says next to
S3: a passage where Lewis says, you have to grieve in
S3: order to realize that the rope you're holding onto is
S3: strong enough to hold you. She underlined that passage over
S3: and over again and said, the rope held me. The
S3: rope really held me. He was who he said he
S3: would be.
S8: She couldn't have known that, apart from her deep grief,
S8: she saw there and only there that Christ is trustworthy.
S2: Hmm.
S1: Better note to end this conversation on Matthew. It's a
S1: marvelous book. Thank you. Thank you for challenging and encouraging
S1: and equip us to remember heaven. That's exactly what your
S1: book does. It's rich theologically, and it's so encouraging, quite frankly,
S1: so necessary. So friends, get your copy of remember Heaven.
S1: Thank you Matt. Thanks, friends. We'll see you next time.