1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,039 S1: You know what that familiar theme song means? That's right. 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,800 S1: The key of C. It's time for another conversation at 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,120 S1: the radio backyard fence. Welcome to Chris Fabry live. The 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,120 S1: program from the heart to the heart for the heart. 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,759 S1: I was listening to a conversation the other day. Bill 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,200 S1: and Christie Galtier were talking about receiving and reflecting God's empathy. 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,760 S1: And in the middle of that conversation, Bill said something like, 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,400 S1: I was terrible at empathy. When I was younger, I 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,600 S1: didn't know how to be empathetic. So I asked Bill, 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,400 S1: would you would you come on the program and talk 11 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,479 S1: about that? And he said, I will, but Christie's got 12 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,239 S1: to be there because she's the one who's helped me 13 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,239 S1: the most in dealing with empathy, becoming more empathetic. So 14 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,720 S1: that's what we're going to do. Straight ahead. On Chris 15 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,160 S1: Fabry live. First, a thank you to our team. Ryan 16 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,440 S1: McConaughey is doing all things technical. Trish is our producer. 17 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,840 S1: Lisa's in the chair today. Josh will be answering your questions, 18 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,080 S1: your calls, and, uh, if you have a question about 19 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,110 S1: empathy and men, give us a call. Hall. And since 20 00:01:00,110 --> 00:01:02,670 S1: it's Friday. That's right friend, it's time for the fabulous 21 00:01:02,670 --> 00:01:05,709 S1: fabric Friday. Sigh. Here's what it does one. We oxygenate 22 00:01:05,709 --> 00:01:09,110 S1: your blood. Two we get your endorphins going. Three we 23 00:01:09,110 --> 00:01:13,630 S1: raise your serotonin level. Four we promote lymphatic drainage, and 24 00:01:13,630 --> 00:01:16,870 S1: five we stimulate your parasympathetic system. That's why we call 25 00:01:16,870 --> 00:01:20,590 S1: it the five lung languages. It also stimulates your vagus nerve. 26 00:01:20,590 --> 00:01:23,270 S1: We help you release acetylcholine. And don't you dare forget 27 00:01:23,310 --> 00:01:26,949 S1: what it does to cortisol dissipation. Take in four seconds 28 00:01:26,950 --> 00:01:29,990 S1: of air through your nose right now. Hold it for 29 00:01:29,990 --> 00:01:32,630 S1: a seconds, and then as you release that air through 30 00:01:32,670 --> 00:01:34,750 S1: your mouth, push on the left side of your rib 31 00:01:34,750 --> 00:01:38,310 S1: cage to get rid of all that bad carbon dioxide today. 32 00:01:38,310 --> 00:01:41,470 S1: Give an empathetic sigh, a sigh that says, I can 33 00:01:41,470 --> 00:01:43,830 S1: tell this is a hard day for you. A sigh 34 00:01:43,830 --> 00:01:47,550 S1: that gives space to listen, not a judgmental sigh. Aren't 35 00:01:47,550 --> 00:01:49,830 S1: you over that yet? Move on with your life. Come on, 36 00:01:49,830 --> 00:01:52,910 S1: get with the program. Know an empathetic person is more 37 00:01:52,910 --> 00:01:56,910 S1: about presence than fixing. And that's why I think it's 38 00:01:56,910 --> 00:01:59,380 S1: harder for men to express sympathy, because much of the 39 00:01:59,380 --> 00:02:01,780 S1: time we want to fix, we want to get ten steps. 40 00:02:01,780 --> 00:02:03,860 S1: Have you tried this? Let me get you an aspirin, 41 00:02:04,220 --> 00:02:07,380 S1: give an empathetic sigh and close your mouth and resist 42 00:02:07,380 --> 00:02:10,579 S1: the urge to fix and get ready for something good. 43 00:02:10,820 --> 00:02:15,860 S1: On today's edition of Chris Baby Live. All rights reserved. 44 00:02:16,620 --> 00:02:18,300 S1: Before we get to our topic, I hear a lot 45 00:02:18,300 --> 00:02:21,700 S1: of parents. I hear grandparents lament the phones, the gadgets, 46 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:24,540 S1: the screens their kids use, and I'm empathetic about that. 47 00:02:24,860 --> 00:02:29,380 S1: Picture this children around a table, crayons in hand, learning 48 00:02:29,380 --> 00:02:32,700 S1: about redemption and the joy of Christmas giving. That's what 49 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:36,980 S1: happens when they get into the little Christmas Carol coloring 50 00:02:36,980 --> 00:02:39,139 S1: and activity book. It's our way to help you out 51 00:02:39,139 --> 00:02:42,220 S1: this Christmas season. See if it works and tell me. 52 00:02:42,260 --> 00:02:44,940 S1: Give a gift to Chris Fabry live. Tell me what 53 00:02:44,940 --> 00:02:48,580 S1: happens when they receive this creative and beautifully illustrated book. 54 00:02:48,580 --> 00:02:52,940 S1: But hurry, November is ending next weekend. Can you believe that? 55 00:02:52,940 --> 00:02:55,579 S1: Go to Chris Fabry lives. You can see how to 56 00:02:55,620 --> 00:02:58,450 S1: give a gift right there any size. Would love to 57 00:02:58,490 --> 00:03:01,570 S1: send this to you one per household so your kids 58 00:03:01,570 --> 00:03:03,890 S1: are going to have to fight over it. So we'll 59 00:03:03,889 --> 00:03:08,089 S1: have to deal with conflict too. Chris Fabry lives or 60 00:03:08,090 --> 00:03:14,570 S1: call 86695. Fabry, give a gift. Say something. Hello. Happy 61 00:03:14,570 --> 00:03:21,329 S1: Thanksgiving to whoever answers the phone there. Eight. 669532279. And 62 00:03:21,330 --> 00:03:23,170 S1: one of the big questions I have today is whether 63 00:03:23,169 --> 00:03:26,890 S1: you can learn empathy. And that story in The Little 64 00:03:26,889 --> 00:03:31,010 S1: Christmas Carol about Ebenezer Scrooge, you see from the beginning 65 00:03:31,010 --> 00:03:34,210 S1: of that story to the end of it, his transformation 66 00:03:34,410 --> 00:03:37,050 S1: at the beginning when he's asked, you know, contribute to 67 00:03:37,090 --> 00:03:40,170 S1: help the poor. Uh, he's told that many of them 68 00:03:40,170 --> 00:03:42,690 S1: would rather die than go to a workhouse. And he 69 00:03:42,690 --> 00:03:45,650 S1: says if they would rather die, they'd better do it 70 00:03:45,650 --> 00:03:50,090 S1: and decrease the surplus surplus population. And then at the 71 00:03:50,090 --> 00:03:53,970 S1: end of the story, he's got Tiny Tim on his shoulder, 72 00:03:53,970 --> 00:03:57,850 S1: and he's raising Bob Cratchit's salary and buying the prize. Turkey. 73 00:03:57,890 --> 00:04:02,130 S1: He's just a captive. He sees. He sees the other people. 74 00:04:02,130 --> 00:04:05,970 S1: I wonder if that kind of change is possible for 75 00:04:05,970 --> 00:04:08,930 S1: you and me. Let's find out. Bill and Kristy Galtier 76 00:04:08,970 --> 00:04:12,730 S1: have been counseling and ministering to people for 30 years. 77 00:04:12,770 --> 00:04:16,410 S1: More than that, they've written books such as journey of 78 00:04:16,410 --> 00:04:21,690 S1: the soul, Healthy Feelings, thriving, Faith builds, a Psychologist, Christie's, 79 00:04:21,730 --> 00:04:25,810 S1: a marriage and family therapist, founders of Soul Shepherding, a 80 00:04:25,850 --> 00:04:29,290 S1: nonprofit to help believers discover their next steps for growing 81 00:04:29,330 --> 00:04:34,730 S1: an intimacy with Jesus emotional health and loving relationships. They 82 00:04:34,730 --> 00:04:37,529 S1: live in California, and their book that is our featured 83 00:04:37,529 --> 00:04:43,890 S1: resource today is deeply loved receiving and reflecting God's great 84 00:04:43,890 --> 00:04:48,049 S1: empathy for you. Bill and Kristy, welcome to the program. 85 00:04:48,050 --> 00:04:49,050 S1: How are you doing today? 86 00:04:50,290 --> 00:04:52,570 S2: Oh, thank you so much, Chris. We're glad to join 87 00:04:52,570 --> 00:04:54,090 S2: you and all of your listeners. 88 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,960 S3: Yeah, it's a great joy to have this conversation. 89 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,680 S1: Let's define that term then, because I think we say 90 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,480 S1: empathy and people will think one, you know, everybody has 91 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,080 S1: a different term of thought. What is empathy? 92 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,719 S2: Well and deeply love. We define empathy as seeking to 93 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:17,920 S2: understand someone's emotions, thoughts and experiences, to help them know 94 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,760 S2: that they are deeply loved by God. It's getting inside 95 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,760 S2: someone's skin, even the skin of their soul, if we could, 96 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,640 S2: and walking around in their shoes to see life as 97 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:29,359 S2: they do and feel it as they do. 98 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,720 S1: Yes, just like I was talking about a story. Scrooge. 99 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,800 S1: Just like in To Kill a mockingbird. One of my 100 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,239 S1: favorite novels is is Scout gets into Boo Radleys shoes 101 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,600 S1: on on the porch and walks around on the porch 102 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,560 S1: and sees what it feels like to be him. Right, Christy? 103 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:52,240 S3: That's absolutely right. We want to know what it is 104 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,429 S3: to be able to have someone understand our experience, which 105 00:05:56,750 --> 00:05:59,590 S3: is unique to us. There is some common experience we have, 106 00:05:59,630 --> 00:06:03,029 S3: but we each are made so uniquely, and to know 107 00:06:03,029 --> 00:06:07,230 S3: somebody really gets us and really understands, strengthens us and 108 00:06:07,230 --> 00:06:09,670 S3: helps us to feel connected to them and also to 109 00:06:09,710 --> 00:06:11,310 S3: God in his love for us. 110 00:06:11,750 --> 00:06:14,150 S1: I think I put this on Facebook. I think empathy 111 00:06:14,150 --> 00:06:16,390 S1: is harder for men than women. Is that true in 112 00:06:16,390 --> 00:06:19,230 S1: your experience? And so people responded, I'll tell you what 113 00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:21,349 S1: they said here in a minute. But let me ask 114 00:06:21,350 --> 00:06:24,310 S1: you two, do you feel like it's harder for men 115 00:06:24,310 --> 00:06:28,190 S1: to be have empathy than women? Christy, you first. 116 00:06:29,110 --> 00:06:31,750 S3: I do believe it is a little harder, more challenging. 117 00:06:31,750 --> 00:06:33,750 S3: I think that women, you know, one of the things 118 00:06:33,750 --> 00:06:36,190 S3: that empathy does is it helps us to attach. And 119 00:06:36,190 --> 00:06:40,390 S3: I think especially in parenting as mothers, that secure attachment 120 00:06:40,390 --> 00:06:42,950 S3: that we get with our baby, part of that is 121 00:06:42,950 --> 00:06:45,630 S3: formed through empathy. As I'm listening and getting to know 122 00:06:45,670 --> 00:06:48,550 S3: my child and I'm discerning, is that a cry that's 123 00:06:48,589 --> 00:06:52,779 S3: a hungry cry or a scared cry? Or I need attention. Cry. 124 00:06:53,020 --> 00:06:55,540 S3: It's that empathy for my baby that then helps me 125 00:06:55,540 --> 00:06:57,620 S3: to know how to respond to their need, and to 126 00:06:57,620 --> 00:07:00,260 S3: have a secure attachment with them. So I do think 127 00:07:00,260 --> 00:07:03,060 S3: that maybe even biologically, women have an advantage when it 128 00:07:03,060 --> 00:07:04,339 S3: comes to empathy. 129 00:07:04,700 --> 00:07:06,300 S4: I do too. Bill, what do you think? 130 00:07:07,339 --> 00:07:09,300 S2: Yeah. Well, that said, I mean, there are exceptions. There 131 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:11,740 S2: are some men that are more empathetic in some women 132 00:07:11,740 --> 00:07:15,739 S2: that are less. But for the most part, in my experience, um, 133 00:07:15,820 --> 00:07:18,540 S2: men struggle more with with emotions like in our Soul 134 00:07:18,540 --> 00:07:22,140 S2: Shepherding Institute retreats that we lead, and we'll have 50 135 00:07:22,140 --> 00:07:24,500 S2: people come to 80 of these retreats that we lead 136 00:07:24,500 --> 00:07:27,260 S2: a year. A lot of times, you know, a woman 137 00:07:27,260 --> 00:07:31,380 S2: brings her husband, uh, many, many people come without a spouse. 138 00:07:31,380 --> 00:07:34,620 S2: But it's just it's uncanny how often, you know, a 139 00:07:34,620 --> 00:07:37,940 S2: woman will take the leadership of being interested in spiritual 140 00:07:37,940 --> 00:07:42,700 S2: things and relationships and emotions. And it does seem like 141 00:07:42,700 --> 00:07:47,740 S2: women are just more gifted and motivated around empathy and 142 00:07:47,740 --> 00:07:50,730 S2: cultivating deeper and more meaningful relationships? 143 00:07:50,770 --> 00:07:51,290 S4: Yes. 144 00:07:51,330 --> 00:07:54,250 S1: And it's not that women don't want to fix things either. 145 00:07:54,290 --> 00:07:58,010 S1: You know my analogy a little earlier about, you know, 146 00:07:58,050 --> 00:08:00,570 S1: men want to fix things. Nobody wants to be put 147 00:08:00,570 --> 00:08:03,210 S1: in a box. But the the way that I have 148 00:08:03,210 --> 00:08:06,250 S1: always felt is that if you can fix something, then 149 00:08:06,290 --> 00:08:10,050 S1: you're valuable. Valuable? If you can help somebody, if you 150 00:08:10,050 --> 00:08:13,210 S1: can give them advice, man, it changes their life. Oh, 151 00:08:13,890 --> 00:08:20,010 S1: this is and and an empathetic person doesn't get their 152 00:08:20,690 --> 00:08:24,650 S1: worth from what they do for somebody else or how 153 00:08:24,650 --> 00:08:29,050 S1: much they help them. They are secure enough in in 154 00:08:29,090 --> 00:08:33,970 S1: their own skin to listen and to probe and to 155 00:08:34,050 --> 00:08:38,610 S1: ask questions and to, as you said, Kristie, find out 156 00:08:38,610 --> 00:08:41,410 S1: who that other person really is. Am I catching on 157 00:08:41,450 --> 00:08:42,610 S1: to what you're talking about? 158 00:08:43,410 --> 00:08:45,650 S3: Oh, you sure are. In fact, let me just illustrate 159 00:08:45,650 --> 00:08:48,800 S3: this with a story from our marriage early on when 160 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:50,760 S3: Bill and I were first married, we were both in 161 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:52,959 S3: grad school getting our doctorates, and we were working full 162 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,840 S3: time to put ourselves through grad school and trying to 163 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,200 S3: save money. So living at my grandparents house in a 164 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,240 S3: little room there. I was feeling really overwhelmed. I was 165 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,880 S3: 21 years old. I had a full plate, our bills 166 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,120 S3: were higher than they'd ever been, and I was having 167 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,400 S3: some emotions about this. And so I asked Bill if 168 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,560 S3: we could go into our bedroom just to have have 169 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:12,839 S3: some time to talk. And I sat on the floor 170 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,120 S3: because there was no chairs in the bedroom, and just 171 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,640 S3: began to tell him how overwhelmed I was. Well, Bill 172 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,560 S3: was ahead of me in his doctoral training in psychology, 173 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,200 S3: and he had already been seeing some clients, and he 174 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,960 S3: began to give me some really great advice. You know, 175 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,240 S3: he was already getting paid to give his clients great advice, 176 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,400 S3: and he just knew exactly how to help me with 177 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,040 S3: my overwhelm. Except that I didn't want his advice. And 178 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,480 S3: I said to him, I don't want your advice. I 179 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,280 S3: don't want you to fix me. I don't care what 180 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,520 S3: you know. I need to know you care. And basically, 181 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,920 S3: that's when I first learned. I need to start to 182 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,470 S3: ask him directly. I just need you to listen to 183 00:09:48,510 --> 00:09:50,870 S3: me with empathy. I need to know I'm not alone. 184 00:09:50,990 --> 00:09:53,950 S3: I need to know you understand and you care. I 185 00:09:53,950 --> 00:09:56,790 S3: know what to do. And once I receive your care, 186 00:09:56,830 --> 00:09:59,430 S3: your strength. Know you're with me. And you understand that's 187 00:09:59,429 --> 00:10:01,870 S3: going to give me the strength and the confidence to 188 00:10:01,910 --> 00:10:03,110 S3: act on what I know. 189 00:10:03,150 --> 00:10:03,870 S4: Yeah, but there are. 190 00:10:03,870 --> 00:10:06,829 S1: Wives listening right now who would say I shouldn't have 191 00:10:06,830 --> 00:10:09,870 S1: to tell him? He ought to know that. Why doesn't 192 00:10:09,870 --> 00:10:12,870 S1: he know that? And you could get stuck there, right? 193 00:10:13,950 --> 00:10:15,790 S2: Yeah, I hear that all the time. What they're not 194 00:10:15,790 --> 00:10:19,229 S2: realizing is that, you know, and this is why Jesus 195 00:10:19,390 --> 00:10:23,390 S2: taught us to ask repeatedly. It's a teaching of his. 196 00:10:23,590 --> 00:10:27,829 S2: Because if we don't ask, if not explicitly, at least implicitly, 197 00:10:27,990 --> 00:10:31,590 S2: if we're not taking responsibility for what we need, then 198 00:10:31,630 --> 00:10:35,390 S2: we're not actually going to receive the same level of benefit. 199 00:10:35,390 --> 00:10:38,270 S2: When someone does care. It's sort of a myth that, well, 200 00:10:38,270 --> 00:10:40,030 S2: if someone would just, you know, figure out what I 201 00:10:40,030 --> 00:10:42,709 S2: need and do it for me, that would be so loving. Yeah. 202 00:10:42,750 --> 00:10:44,830 S2: I mean, there's a type of love in that, but 203 00:10:44,830 --> 00:10:49,020 S2: it also promotes sort of like rescuing behavior and the 204 00:10:49,020 --> 00:10:52,500 S2: boundaries get crossed. It works much better in relationships when 205 00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:55,900 S2: I'm responsible for me and what I feel in need. 206 00:10:56,059 --> 00:10:59,220 S2: And you're responsible for you and what you feel in need. 207 00:10:59,260 --> 00:11:02,140 S3: And that goes for both both sexes. I mean, I've 208 00:11:02,140 --> 00:11:05,699 S3: had to learn also to humble myself because there's been 209 00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:08,140 S3: times I've slipped into giving Bill advice and he's had 210 00:11:08,140 --> 00:11:10,780 S3: to say, you know, I just wanted some empathy. And 211 00:11:10,780 --> 00:11:13,459 S3: I've had to say, oh, of course, can I have 212 00:11:13,460 --> 00:11:14,180 S3: a do over? 213 00:11:14,540 --> 00:11:15,300 S4: There you go. 214 00:11:15,340 --> 00:11:16,340 S1: See, it works both ways. 215 00:11:16,380 --> 00:11:16,820 S4: Okay. 216 00:11:17,100 --> 00:11:21,179 S1: So something happened to Bill in school where he saw 217 00:11:21,179 --> 00:11:24,980 S1: this kind of for the first time. And my hope 218 00:11:24,980 --> 00:11:26,740 S1: is that the light bulb is going to go on 219 00:11:26,740 --> 00:11:29,940 S1: for somebody today. As you listen to this program with 220 00:11:29,940 --> 00:11:34,300 S1: Bill and Kristy Galtier, they've written deeply loved receiving and 221 00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:38,660 S1: reflecting God's great empathy for you. Just go to npr.org. 222 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:41,819 S1: Click through today's information. You'll see it right there. Chris 223 00:11:43,540 --> 00:11:49,979 S1: would love to hear from you today. Our number is (877) 548-3675. 224 00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:01,220 S1: I'm always on the lookout for people who could explain 225 00:12:01,220 --> 00:12:04,740 S1: my life to me and help me. And, uh, this 226 00:12:04,740 --> 00:12:06,980 S1: might help you as well. So come on over to 227 00:12:07,020 --> 00:12:08,860 S1: the back fence and let's see what will happen with 228 00:12:08,860 --> 00:12:11,819 S1: Bill and Christy, who've written Deeply Loved. Isn't that what 229 00:12:11,820 --> 00:12:15,420 S1: we all want? We want to be deeply loved, especially 230 00:12:15,420 --> 00:12:19,540 S1: from God receiving and reflecting God's great empathy for you. 231 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:21,980 S1: In fact, that's one of the the things that one 232 00:12:21,980 --> 00:12:25,540 S1: of our respondents said. Uh, Lisa Ann said, I believe 233 00:12:25,540 --> 00:12:30,619 S1: empathy and grace must be experienced before one can become 234 00:12:30,620 --> 00:12:34,819 S1: empathetic and gracious toward others. We'll unpack that a little 235 00:12:34,860 --> 00:12:38,100 S1: bit later on. But, Bill, tell me. Tell me what 236 00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:40,580 S1: happened to you. You were in college. You had a teacher. 237 00:12:40,580 --> 00:12:44,690 S1: You had a counselor who give me the before and 238 00:12:44,690 --> 00:12:48,050 S1: the during and the after of what was what happened 239 00:12:48,090 --> 00:12:49,130 S1: there in that office. 240 00:12:49,929 --> 00:12:52,490 S2: Yeah. Well, I was studying Christian psychology to learn to 241 00:12:52,490 --> 00:12:55,730 S2: help others. And I came into college as a highly 242 00:12:55,730 --> 00:13:01,170 S2: responsible oldest child. Uh, five kids and a thinker, a 243 00:13:01,210 --> 00:13:03,930 S2: doer type a a lot of ways raised on the 244 00:13:03,929 --> 00:13:07,210 S2: sports field. Uh, both my grandfathers worked in the steel 245 00:13:07,210 --> 00:13:09,570 S2: mills in Chicago. My dad worked in the steel mill 246 00:13:09,570 --> 00:13:11,650 S2: for a while. I was raised to be strong, to 247 00:13:11,690 --> 00:13:14,650 S2: be tough, not to have emotions or problems. Uh, it 248 00:13:14,650 --> 00:13:16,690 S2: seemed like there were problems around me with my younger 249 00:13:16,690 --> 00:13:19,970 S2: siblings and, uh, friends and so forth. And so I 250 00:13:19,970 --> 00:13:22,689 S2: was always trying to be strong. And so my mindset 251 00:13:22,690 --> 00:13:25,890 S2: when I was studying Christian psychology was to gain insights 252 00:13:25,890 --> 00:13:28,170 S2: so that I could be more helpful to other people 253 00:13:28,490 --> 00:13:32,449 S2: and become a Christian psychologist. And so, okay, my favorite professor. 254 00:13:32,490 --> 00:13:34,090 S4: Let me ask you this. Let me ask you something 255 00:13:34,090 --> 00:13:35,210 S4: before you go. 256 00:13:35,330 --> 00:13:40,330 S1: So people who had feelings, men who, you know, broke 257 00:13:40,330 --> 00:13:44,160 S1: down and cried. Ride. That's a weakness. You didn't want 258 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:45,480 S1: any part of that, right? 259 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,319 S2: That's right. Yeah, no, I could I didn't know what 260 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,080 S2: I felt growing up and even in college, and I 261 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,240 S2: didn't think it mattered that much. I could tell you 262 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,640 S2: what my mom felt because I was concerned about that, 263 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,439 S2: because she had a lot of needs and it was 264 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:04,600 S2: affecting the home, but I was not aware. So when, um, 265 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,719 S2: I was meeting with my professor because I was her 266 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,480 S2: teacher's aide, and I wanted to learn from her because 267 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,160 S2: not only was she smart, but she was a therapist. 268 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,040 S2: She knew how to do counseling. And so I said, 269 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,760 S2: you know, tell me about what it's like to be 270 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:19,400 S2: a counselor. I want to learn from you. This is 271 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,560 S2: such an honor. And she said to me, well, we 272 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,440 S2: can get to that later. Bill, let's start with you. 273 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,200 S2: How are you? How are you feeling? And I tell you, 274 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,840 S2: I was like, looking over my shoulder, I don't know, 275 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,720 S2: I wanted to just change the subject and say, well, 276 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,000 S2: how are you feeling? Like that was more comfortable for me. 277 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,400 S2: I didn't know what was going on inside of me. 278 00:14:40,510 --> 00:14:42,230 S2: And so she said, well, just, you know, talk to 279 00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:45,870 S2: me about what's going on. And so I, I'm always 280 00:14:45,870 --> 00:14:47,990 S2: thinking of doing stuff. So I just started talking about 281 00:14:47,990 --> 00:14:50,950 S2: that stuff. And as she was listening to me, she 282 00:14:50,950 --> 00:14:54,390 S2: started putting words to what I was feeling. And she, 283 00:14:54,430 --> 00:14:56,750 S2: you know, slowed me down. And she'd say, well, it 284 00:14:56,750 --> 00:15:01,590 S2: sounds like maybe you're you're stressed. I'd say, well, yeah. Yeah, 285 00:15:01,590 --> 00:15:04,150 S2: it's it's been a lot of a lot of pressure, 286 00:15:04,190 --> 00:15:06,590 S2: a lot of responsibility. I've, you know, this test and 287 00:15:06,630 --> 00:15:09,910 S2: this that and this is going on and basketball team 288 00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:12,790 S2: and all these different things. And then she said, okay, 289 00:15:12,830 --> 00:15:17,070 S2: so well maybe you're feeling anxious. What are you feeling 290 00:15:17,070 --> 00:15:20,110 S2: in your stomach. And well that's kind of some tension 291 00:15:20,110 --> 00:15:22,070 S2: in there and a little bit of a sick feeling 292 00:15:22,070 --> 00:15:25,590 S2: when I really pay attention to it. And well, that's anxiety. 293 00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:28,870 S2: It's like, oh yeah, I guess I'm feeling anxious. And 294 00:15:28,870 --> 00:15:32,830 S2: so I learned the language of emotions because she felt 295 00:15:32,830 --> 00:15:35,710 S2: my emotions by listening to me and then helped me 296 00:15:35,710 --> 00:15:38,869 S2: put words to them and that that gave me handles 297 00:15:38,980 --> 00:15:42,700 S2: and descriptors and help me get in touch with my 298 00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:45,580 S2: body because our emotions are connected to our bodies. And 299 00:15:45,580 --> 00:15:48,540 S2: so that was a big change for me. It took 300 00:15:48,540 --> 00:15:50,780 S2: some time. Of course, I met with her the whole year, 301 00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:53,540 S2: but that was really the beginning of my journey of 302 00:15:53,540 --> 00:15:57,780 S2: waking up to my emotions. And I'm so, so thankful. 303 00:15:58,060 --> 00:16:01,100 S2: First of all, because it was that same year that 304 00:16:01,100 --> 00:16:04,580 S2: I met Christy and we started dating. And Christy is 305 00:16:04,580 --> 00:16:06,500 S2: very different than me. And if I wasn't aware of 306 00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:08,620 S2: my emotions, I don't think she would have even gone 307 00:16:08,620 --> 00:16:09,620 S2: out on a date with me. 308 00:16:10,660 --> 00:16:12,700 S1: Okay, pick that up from there, Christy. 309 00:16:13,420 --> 00:16:17,700 S3: Well, it's true, I did admire him. His ambition, his achievements, 310 00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:21,060 S3: his intellect. But I wanted to be connected to him. 311 00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:24,060 S3: And I remember even in that week that we started 312 00:16:24,060 --> 00:16:27,380 S3: dating exclusively, him saying to me, wow, I'm starting to 313 00:16:27,380 --> 00:16:29,860 S3: have some feelings. I can't wait till I meet with Kara, 314 00:16:29,860 --> 00:16:32,500 S3: and I can talk to her about these feelings. And, 315 00:16:32,660 --> 00:16:35,060 S3: and that that was exciting to me because I wanted 316 00:16:35,060 --> 00:16:37,300 S3: to see I had an effect on him. And when 317 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:40,250 S3: he started to have feelings, then I knew, okay, something's 318 00:16:40,250 --> 00:16:42,330 S3: going on there. I'm connecting with him deeper. 319 00:16:44,410 --> 00:16:49,850 S1: But then you got married and and and and there 320 00:16:49,850 --> 00:16:54,410 S1: were times, as you just explained a little earlier, where 321 00:16:54,610 --> 00:16:57,690 S1: you didn't feel connected to him or you felt like 322 00:16:57,690 --> 00:16:59,410 S1: you were being fixed. Right? 323 00:17:00,410 --> 00:17:03,730 S3: Absolutely. There's times when I he would come home, his 324 00:17:03,730 --> 00:17:06,889 S3: relational centers were off. He wasn't sharing his feelings. He 325 00:17:06,890 --> 00:17:09,570 S3: wasn't in touch with his emotions because they they get 326 00:17:09,570 --> 00:17:12,810 S3: in the way. Emotions can be messy. They can be difficult. 327 00:17:12,810 --> 00:17:15,929 S3: And they they take some time and energy to be 328 00:17:15,930 --> 00:17:19,730 S3: able to process. And it feels vulnerable to let somebody 329 00:17:19,730 --> 00:17:23,170 S3: in to what we really feel. Yeah. 330 00:17:23,730 --> 00:17:27,290 S1: So what I hear and what a great professor to 331 00:17:27,290 --> 00:17:29,890 S1: have to be able to take you from right there 332 00:17:29,890 --> 00:17:32,689 S1: where you are. She wasn't judgmental of you, that you 333 00:17:32,690 --> 00:17:36,050 S1: didn't know how you felt, Bill. She just was able 334 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,960 S1: to see, see you and then move toward you and 335 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,760 S1: ask you continue to ask you questions. She was modeling empathy, 336 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:45,520 S1: wasn't she? 337 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,200 S2: Yeah. She was. It was not only like in her 338 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:54,800 S2: behaviors and skills. It was in her demeanor and her 339 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,880 S2: her her her bodily experience and her nonverbals she was 340 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:04,080 S2: in her heart. I felt the warmth from her heart. And, uh, 341 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,879 S2: in addition to her, like her curiosity, her her caring, 342 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,920 S2: her compassion, I felt her strength, that she was rooted 343 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,600 S2: and solid, and she she had the capacity to really 344 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,040 S2: listen and receive what I had to share. And the 345 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:26,119 S2: way I shared it, whatever I was feeling frustrated, stressed, uh, hurt, uh, 346 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:30,280 S2: struggling with with feelings of inadequacy and shame. Anything that 347 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,000 S2: I was feeling, she was strong enough to sort of 348 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:38,430 S2: emotionally hold that and remain non-reactive and just interested in 349 00:18:38,430 --> 00:18:41,630 S2: caring towards me and helping me to to learn to 350 00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:44,470 S2: to find the words and and the perspective and to 351 00:18:44,510 --> 00:18:48,750 S2: integrate my emotions with my thoughts and to gain strength. Hmm. 352 00:18:49,510 --> 00:18:53,310 S1: What did you feel shame about when you were that age? 353 00:18:54,190 --> 00:18:58,629 S2: Uh, around. Not achieving enough. Not accomplishing enough because, uh, 354 00:18:58,630 --> 00:19:01,629 S2: you know, my personality type and especially growing up, uh, 355 00:19:01,630 --> 00:19:08,270 S2: overly responsible, and so I. Something goes wrong. Uh, whatever 356 00:19:08,270 --> 00:19:11,470 S2: it is, I don't get good grade. Uh, don't do 357 00:19:11,470 --> 00:19:16,270 S2: well in sports activity. Disappoint. Uh, friend, there's a conflict. 358 00:19:16,270 --> 00:19:19,230 S2: I was a student leader. And so as a resident 359 00:19:19,230 --> 00:19:22,750 S2: advisor and a head resident advisor after that. And so 360 00:19:22,910 --> 00:19:26,590 S2: anything that would be going, uh, not the way I 361 00:19:26,590 --> 00:19:29,750 S2: would hope it to go, I would think to myself, well, 362 00:19:29,750 --> 00:19:31,830 S2: I can I could, should be able to fix this. 363 00:19:31,830 --> 00:19:33,900 S2: I should be able to do it better. And so 364 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:36,300 S2: I would feel inadequate in some cases that would go 365 00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:38,980 S2: down deeper into a place of shame and just feeling 366 00:19:38,980 --> 00:19:40,100 S2: bad about myself. 367 00:19:40,140 --> 00:19:44,500 S1: Yes. Okay, so on the husband and wife thing then, Christy, 368 00:19:45,020 --> 00:19:48,780 S1: what I see happening a lot and this is not me, 369 00:19:48,820 --> 00:19:53,180 S1: of course, this is never me. But what happens is 370 00:19:53,220 --> 00:19:56,020 S1: the man will say, the woman will say, you know, 371 00:19:56,060 --> 00:19:58,780 S1: move toward him and ask him how he's feeling, or 372 00:19:58,980 --> 00:20:01,140 S1: I need help with this, and would you listen? And 373 00:20:01,140 --> 00:20:05,940 S1: you're not listening. And the man, because he's not in 374 00:20:05,980 --> 00:20:08,380 S1: tune with this, will simply say, well, tell me what 375 00:20:08,420 --> 00:20:11,379 S1: to do. Give me the boxes I can check off. 376 00:20:11,420 --> 00:20:15,580 S1: Give me the sentences to say, to say so that 377 00:20:15,580 --> 00:20:17,780 S1: I can, you know, toe the line and not have 378 00:20:17,780 --> 00:20:20,379 S1: all this conflict because it's the conflict he doesn't want. 379 00:20:20,420 --> 00:20:23,300 S1: If there's conflict, then he's a failure, you know, and 380 00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:26,820 S1: he doesn't yet see that this is not me. This 381 00:20:26,820 --> 00:20:29,740 S1: is other people. He doesn't yet see that conflict is 382 00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:35,500 S1: not necessarily bad. Conflict can actually provide this avenue toward 383 00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:38,740 S1: a deeper relationship. So what do you say to the 384 00:20:38,740 --> 00:20:41,739 S1: man who feels or the wife who's experiencing what I 385 00:20:41,740 --> 00:20:42,620 S1: just described? 386 00:20:43,220 --> 00:20:47,100 S3: Well, definitely what you say and I I've experienced that 387 00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:50,020 S3: bill and I have experienced that dynamic ourselves. And then, 388 00:20:50,060 --> 00:20:53,780 S3: of course, you know, in the over 100,000 hours of 389 00:20:53,780 --> 00:20:56,740 S3: the pool of pain we've spent with people in their conflicts, 390 00:20:56,740 --> 00:20:59,660 S3: their pain. And so it's a real dynamic. And I 391 00:20:59,660 --> 00:21:02,260 S3: think that what I would want to say is that, 392 00:21:02,859 --> 00:21:07,379 S3: you know, sometimes in relationships, we'll even provoke a conflict 393 00:21:07,380 --> 00:21:11,300 S3: because what we really want is connection. We want to 394 00:21:11,340 --> 00:21:15,500 S3: feel close to the person we love. We want this empathy. 395 00:21:15,780 --> 00:21:18,459 S3: We want to know we're loved. We want to know 396 00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:22,060 S3: they care. And so it's not about just saying the 397 00:21:22,060 --> 00:21:25,820 S3: right words or saying the right thing or doing it 398 00:21:25,820 --> 00:21:31,330 S3: all right. It's about being present. It's about really seeking 399 00:21:31,369 --> 00:21:34,889 S3: to understand the one that we love and to help 400 00:21:34,890 --> 00:21:39,010 S3: them using our words and our attention, our attunement to 401 00:21:39,050 --> 00:21:41,410 S3: them to communicate. We're with them. 402 00:21:42,170 --> 00:21:46,530 S1: Mhm. Exactly. That's exactly it. And I think it goes 403 00:21:46,530 --> 00:21:50,570 S1: back to what Lisa Ann had said on the Facebook post. 404 00:21:50,570 --> 00:21:54,730 S1: I believe empathy and grace must be experienced before you 405 00:21:54,730 --> 00:21:58,369 S1: can become empathetic and gracious toward others. Bill, do you 406 00:21:58,369 --> 00:21:59,170 S1: agree with that? 407 00:21:59,690 --> 00:22:02,530 S2: Yeah, that's the main point of our book. Deeply loved. Really. 408 00:22:02,570 --> 00:22:05,210 S2: I mean, someone might think if we're writing a book 409 00:22:05,210 --> 00:22:07,690 S2: about empathy, that it would be all about the listening 410 00:22:07,690 --> 00:22:10,290 S2: skills to give to other people. And of course, we 411 00:22:10,290 --> 00:22:12,450 S2: do cover that, but that's not the heart of it. 412 00:22:12,450 --> 00:22:15,810 S2: The heart of it is learning to receive empathy, because 413 00:22:15,850 --> 00:22:19,250 S2: as we receive empathy from God and others, then it 414 00:22:19,250 --> 00:22:22,810 S2: gets in us and we become an empathetic kind of person. 415 00:22:23,050 --> 00:22:25,050 S2: And so then now when I use the skills of 416 00:22:25,050 --> 00:22:27,609 S2: empathy and we talk about the four A's of empathy 417 00:22:27,650 --> 00:22:30,360 S2: as four skills of empathy that we need to be 418 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,320 S2: receiving and giving. But when empathy is inside of me, 419 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,520 S2: then it can flow out of me more naturally. And 420 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,120 S2: I have that. That heart that is is curious and 421 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,840 S2: open and warm and soft and just caring for that 422 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,800 S2: other person. Because ultimately, empathy is not the words I 423 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,119 S2: say or the skills I use as much as it 424 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,240 S2: is the intention of the heart that I want to 425 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,200 S2: understand you. So, for instance, one of the skills is 426 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,840 S2: attuning to emotions or reflecting the feelings like like a 427 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,760 S2: mirror where you help put words to what somebody is 428 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,840 S2: feeling like. Like my teacher Kara, did for me in college. 429 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,320 S2: But if if I do that without actually feeling anything, 430 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,720 S2: without actually really caring, it's not going to make that 431 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,480 S2: much of a difference. Or let's say I use the 432 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,800 S2: words that don't quite describe accurately what the other person feels. 433 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,080 S2: It's still empathy. If my heart is in it, and 434 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,639 S2: I'm trying. Because that's what makes so much of a 435 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,470 S2: difference to people, is that the one who's listening to 436 00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:33,230 S2: me has soft eyes. They're leaning in. They're truly concerned 437 00:23:33,230 --> 00:23:36,429 S2: and they're persevering. They're staying with me to get themselves 438 00:23:36,430 --> 00:23:37,710 S2: inside of my shoes. 439 00:23:38,510 --> 00:23:41,550 S1: How do you receive empathy, then? As a as a 440 00:23:41,550 --> 00:23:43,669 S1: especially a man who says, I want to be strong. 441 00:23:43,710 --> 00:23:45,670 S1: I've always been this way. I've been a type A, 442 00:23:45,710 --> 00:23:48,230 S1: I've been a performer. I've do this. I don't need 443 00:23:48,230 --> 00:23:52,109 S1: anybody's empathy. I don't even know what I feel. How 444 00:23:52,109 --> 00:23:53,230 S1: do you receive it? 445 00:23:54,430 --> 00:23:57,990 S3: Well, let me start with just affirming what Lisa was saying. 446 00:23:58,030 --> 00:24:01,950 S3: You know, the Bible says in first John 419, we 447 00:24:01,950 --> 00:24:06,230 S3: love because God first loved us. Well, we also empathize 448 00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:11,109 S3: because God first empathized with us. If we look at 449 00:24:11,150 --> 00:24:18,150 S3: the incarnation that God becoming man human to experience everything, 450 00:24:18,150 --> 00:24:21,910 S3: we experience what empathy we see in that. In that 451 00:24:21,910 --> 00:24:25,310 S3: Jesus suffered and was tempted and tested and tried in 452 00:24:25,310 --> 00:24:29,780 S3: every way. We are as Hebrews 415 tells us. So 453 00:24:29,820 --> 00:24:33,380 S3: we look to and we receive empathy from God through 454 00:24:33,380 --> 00:24:37,939 S3: Jesus Christ and His his humanity, as well as his 455 00:24:37,940 --> 00:24:41,940 S3: incredible love and atonement for us. But then we also 456 00:24:41,980 --> 00:24:44,420 S3: we're going to receive empathy. We need to be vulnerable. 457 00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:49,340 S3: And oftentimes there is a especially for men a resistance 458 00:24:49,340 --> 00:24:52,700 S3: to this. You know, I've I've heard men say, you know, no, 459 00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:55,260 S3: my my wife and kids, they need me to be 460 00:24:55,260 --> 00:24:59,020 S3: that shiny knight in metal armor on the horse who's 461 00:24:59,020 --> 00:25:01,100 S3: ready to go out and, you know, take all the 462 00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:04,860 S3: enemies and bring home the loot and protect them and 463 00:25:04,859 --> 00:25:07,100 S3: provide for them. I can't be vulnerable with them. They 464 00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:10,460 S3: couldn't handle my vulnerability. They need me to be strong 465 00:25:10,460 --> 00:25:13,460 S3: for them. But this gets in the way of the 466 00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:16,940 S3: very thing that they're actually longing for from him. And 467 00:25:16,940 --> 00:25:19,260 S3: that's the connection, the presence. 468 00:25:19,300 --> 00:25:22,700 S2: And that's my story. I early in our marriage. Uh, 469 00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:26,609 S2: I had difficulty being vulnerable with Christie, even though I 470 00:25:27,130 --> 00:25:29,090 S2: knew that it was a good thing to do as 471 00:25:29,170 --> 00:25:33,370 S2: a as a Christian studying psychology and so forth. But 472 00:25:33,570 --> 00:25:37,250 S2: deep in my brain cells and endocrine glands and my 473 00:25:37,250 --> 00:25:40,290 S2: my memories, was the experience of being vulnerable as a 474 00:25:40,290 --> 00:25:44,090 S2: child in a big family and with a wonderfully loving mom, 475 00:25:44,090 --> 00:25:47,689 S2: but also an emotional mom. And so I learned to 476 00:25:47,730 --> 00:25:49,610 S2: shut down my emotions as a kid. 477 00:25:49,850 --> 00:25:53,050 S1: Okay, Bill and Christy Moore with them straight ahead on 478 00:25:53,090 --> 00:25:53,889 S1: Moody Radio. 479 00:26:03,730 --> 00:26:05,050 S5: This is Chris Fabry. 480 00:26:05,050 --> 00:26:08,210 S1: Live, and we're talking about men and empathy today. You 481 00:26:08,210 --> 00:26:13,530 S1: want to talk? 8775483675I want to talk with a man 482 00:26:13,530 --> 00:26:18,290 S1: who's struggling with this. Your wife has gotten up into 483 00:26:18,290 --> 00:26:21,969 S1: your grill and you've become angry. And she was glad 484 00:26:21,970 --> 00:26:29,520 S1: about it because you felt something that ever happened to you. (877) 548-3675. 485 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,600 S1: The people at Carenet know the value of empathy. For 486 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,080 S1: the last 50 years, they have walked beside women and 487 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,760 S1: men who have an unexpected pregnancy and are struggling with 488 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,280 S1: that choice. Can you be? Here's a question for you. 489 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,480 S1: Can you be strongly pro-life, but still have empathy for 490 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:51,959 S1: what people are struggling with regarding that unexpected pregnancy? If 491 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,159 S1: you go to Chris. Org. Click the green connect link 492 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,720 S1: and you'll be encouraged by their free devotional praying through advent. 493 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,000 S1: If you're sensing this rising stress and anxiety. But if 494 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,480 S1: you're a man, maybe you're not sensing it, but it's there. Uh, 495 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,960 S1: all the hustle, all the bustle, all the expectations you're 496 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,919 S1: about to experience. What have you made the choice now 497 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,200 S1: to slow down, to see God's provision for us in 498 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,629 S1: his Son Jesus? The devotional will remind you God meets 499 00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:27,270 S1: us right there in our uncertainty and our doubt and 500 00:27:27,270 --> 00:27:31,030 S1: our anxious moments, and he wants to write redemption into 501 00:27:31,030 --> 00:27:37,070 S1: your story. Click that Green connect link at Chris. And 502 00:27:37,070 --> 00:27:42,750 S1: you can download praying through advent. Absolutely free Chris Fabry live. 503 00:27:45,030 --> 00:27:49,950 S1: We're talking with Bill and Kristi Galtier. Deeply loved is 504 00:27:49,950 --> 00:27:53,270 S1: our featured resource. Mark has been hanging on. Mark, why 505 00:27:53,310 --> 00:27:54,750 S1: did you call the program today? 506 00:27:56,310 --> 00:28:01,350 S6: Well, I've told you before about my retired priest friend, 507 00:28:01,350 --> 00:28:04,870 S6: whom I had 15 years of lunches with, and he 508 00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:09,190 S6: was an example of one reason that we resist empathy. 509 00:28:09,230 --> 00:28:12,710 S6: We don't want our sadness to be contagious to others. 510 00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:15,350 S6: And what happened was that on one phone call, he 511 00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:20,270 S6: told me that he was having to tell his wife 512 00:28:20,270 --> 00:28:25,750 S6: that her hallucinations were false because she suffers from Parkinson's disease. 513 00:28:25,750 --> 00:28:29,830 S6: And I told him on a subsequent phone call, hey, 514 00:28:30,270 --> 00:28:32,750 S6: when you told me that this was the saddest time 515 00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:35,030 S6: of your life, my heart sank. And he said, oh, 516 00:28:35,070 --> 00:28:38,790 S6: I'm sorry. And I said, no, Bob, don't apologize. That's 517 00:28:38,790 --> 00:28:41,510 S6: what that's what your friends are here for, is to 518 00:28:41,550 --> 00:28:45,190 S6: show you empathy. And on a more humorous note, you 519 00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:49,030 S6: have to realize that I'm not a formally I'm not 520 00:28:49,030 --> 00:28:51,989 S6: a formal psychologist. I do have a bachelor's degree in it, 521 00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:55,310 S6: but I, I said to him, do you think your 522 00:28:55,310 --> 00:28:57,950 S6: daughter might be depressed? And he said, well, why do 523 00:28:57,950 --> 00:28:59,630 S6: you say that? And I said, well, she's in her 524 00:28:59,630 --> 00:29:03,430 S6: early 40s and she's you've told me that she doesn't 525 00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:08,590 S6: make much money doing what she's doing, and she probably 526 00:29:08,590 --> 00:29:11,310 S6: feels that she should be making as much money as 527 00:29:11,350 --> 00:29:14,630 S6: other women her age. And I'm just wondering if maybe 528 00:29:14,670 --> 00:29:18,870 S6: she feels a little depressed about her self-esteem. And and 529 00:29:18,870 --> 00:29:22,820 S6: Bob tickled me. He said, well, thank you, Doctor Lindsay, 530 00:29:22,820 --> 00:29:26,820 S6: for your diagnosis. I'm going to keep this in mind. 531 00:29:26,860 --> 00:29:30,020 S6: And he he said that he thought I might well 532 00:29:30,020 --> 00:29:33,540 S6: be right about that, that maybe she is depressed, so. 533 00:29:33,780 --> 00:29:36,180 S6: But but I wanted to I wanted to highlight the 534 00:29:36,180 --> 00:29:39,660 S6: fact that sometimes we resist empathy because we don't want 535 00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:44,460 S6: other people to experience our negative emotions. And I was 536 00:29:44,460 --> 00:29:49,820 S6: paradoxically happy to be sad for my friend. I was 537 00:29:49,820 --> 00:29:51,380 S6: very happy to do that. 538 00:29:51,620 --> 00:29:52,540 S5: Because he trusted. 539 00:29:52,540 --> 00:29:56,020 S1: You. Enough with that information, Christy. Talk about that. 540 00:29:56,820 --> 00:29:59,740 S3: That's absolutely right. And that's exactly how I felt towards 541 00:29:59,740 --> 00:30:03,260 S3: Bill before he began to get vulnerable and share his 542 00:30:03,260 --> 00:30:06,780 S3: emotions with me. I felt like actually, I was not 543 00:30:06,780 --> 00:30:09,260 S3: being able to love him in a way that I 544 00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:12,340 S3: really wanted to. I had a lot of care and 545 00:30:12,340 --> 00:30:15,260 S3: empathy to give that. He didn't seem to even have 546 00:30:15,260 --> 00:30:18,970 S3: any vision for, or want to receive from me. 547 00:30:19,370 --> 00:30:21,850 S2: Because to me, to be, uh, have needs and be 548 00:30:21,850 --> 00:30:26,250 S2: emotional with Christie felt I felt inadequate. I felt the 549 00:30:26,250 --> 00:30:29,290 S2: sense of shame about that. Back to our earlier discussion. 550 00:30:29,570 --> 00:30:34,090 S2: And deep inside of me, really mostly unconscious, was this 551 00:30:34,090 --> 00:30:39,770 S2: sense that if I'm emotionally vulnerable with Christie, if I 552 00:30:39,890 --> 00:30:43,970 S2: really let it all out, it's it's going to overwhelm her. 553 00:30:43,970 --> 00:30:47,130 S2: And she's she's not going to think of me with respect. 554 00:30:47,130 --> 00:30:49,210 S2: She's not going to see me as her man. I'm 555 00:30:49,250 --> 00:30:54,090 S2: going to lose my masculinity in this. And so I 556 00:30:54,210 --> 00:30:58,730 S2: held back. But I remember when I took courage and 557 00:30:58,730 --> 00:31:01,290 S2: I trusted what? Like what she just said there, that 558 00:31:01,290 --> 00:31:03,490 S2: she she wanted to listen to me, and she had 559 00:31:03,490 --> 00:31:05,530 S2: it to give. And she cared. She deeply cared. She 560 00:31:05,530 --> 00:31:07,490 S2: wanted to know me in that way. And so I 561 00:31:07,490 --> 00:31:11,850 S2: became more vulnerable with my emotions. And Christie gave me empathy, 562 00:31:11,850 --> 00:31:14,090 S2: and she did it from a place of strength. And 563 00:31:14,090 --> 00:31:17,010 S2: she never used it against me. She never, you know, 564 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,880 S2: came back in some way with, you know, pointing her finger. Well, 565 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,720 S2: you know, because of this and I always felt like, no, 566 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,800 S2: she actually respects me more when I'm emotionally vulnerable with her. 567 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,840 S2: And I saw the difference it made in our our 568 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,440 S2: relational connection and intimacy. And then I also saw how 569 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,520 S2: it rebalanced our relationship, because prior to this, it was 570 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,360 S2: like I was like the one with the answers or 571 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,120 S2: the fixer responsible, strong oldest child in my family growing up. 572 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,840 S2: And then she youngest child and her family growing up. 573 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,920 S2: And so she would have the emotions and the needs 574 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,960 S2: and we knew how to connect that way. But then 575 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,320 S2: we learned how to flip it around, and then we 576 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:55,840 S2: developed real mutuality. 577 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,000 S1: You know, where I experienced that a lot is in 578 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,240 S1: church when the pastor will talk about there'll be something 579 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,320 S1: in the passage and and he will say, not, you know, 580 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,080 S1: 30 years ago I struggled with this or, you know, 581 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,400 S1: 25 years ago, I had an argument with my wife. 582 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,630 S1: It was I was driving to church this morning and 583 00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:20,230 S1: this happened and that vulnerability. You have to be careful 584 00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:22,830 S1: with that. You can't tell everything that goes on. You know, 585 00:32:22,870 --> 00:32:27,430 S1: the dysfunction that you have. But when a pastor is vulnerable, 586 00:32:27,430 --> 00:32:32,070 S1: rather than me thinking less of that person, I think 587 00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:35,470 S1: more because I see, hey, you're the same as me. 588 00:32:35,510 --> 00:32:38,390 S1: That's the same thing I'm going through. So it builds 589 00:32:38,390 --> 00:32:39,790 S1: a bridge, doesn't it? 590 00:32:40,830 --> 00:32:45,590 S2: Yeah. We teach, uh, pastors and missionaries and leaders, servants 591 00:32:45,590 --> 00:32:47,950 S2: of all kind that what we really want to offer 592 00:32:47,950 --> 00:32:50,950 S2: in our ministry. It's like the 12 step recovery model. 593 00:32:50,950 --> 00:32:55,430 S2: But it's our experience, our strength and our hope. And 594 00:32:55,430 --> 00:32:58,110 S2: so the experience part of that is the vulnerability and 595 00:32:58,150 --> 00:33:00,750 S2: being able to share our emotions. And yeah, like you said, Chris, 596 00:33:00,790 --> 00:33:03,910 S2: not just from 30 years ago, but, you know, today, uh, 597 00:33:03,910 --> 00:33:07,110 S2: but then also, what am I learning? How am I growing? 598 00:33:07,150 --> 00:33:10,630 S2: Because everybody wants that that real life vulnerability. But they 599 00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:13,390 S2: also want that sense of hope. So as I'm going 600 00:33:13,390 --> 00:33:16,460 S2: through my life and the Lord and others are meeting 601 00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:18,820 S2: me and helping me to to to grow. Then I 602 00:33:18,820 --> 00:33:22,380 S2: can overflow out of those experiences, including the brokenness or 603 00:33:22,420 --> 00:33:26,020 S2: the the sins that I've confessed and been forgiven of. Uh, 604 00:33:26,020 --> 00:33:28,940 S2: as I'm learning and growing and I share that with people. 605 00:33:28,980 --> 00:33:32,740 S2: It is a deep connection of the resonating experience. Also 606 00:33:32,780 --> 00:33:35,380 S2: the strength of what I'm learning and the hope for them. 607 00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:39,860 S1: Do you have to go through, though? Not anymore. Probably 608 00:33:39,860 --> 00:33:41,540 S1: because you've been doing this for a long time. But 609 00:33:41,540 --> 00:33:45,780 S1: mental gymnastics about. Do I share this now? Is this a, 610 00:33:46,060 --> 00:33:49,820 S1: uh is this an empathetic time? Am I supposed to listen? 611 00:33:50,140 --> 00:33:53,420 S1: In other words, men. Men can seize up if they 612 00:33:53,420 --> 00:33:56,580 S1: don't know the next step. Because they're not. They can't 613 00:33:56,580 --> 00:33:59,660 S1: see what that next step is, and they're afraid that 614 00:33:59,660 --> 00:34:01,820 S1: they're going to make a mistake. And maybe that's the 615 00:34:01,820 --> 00:34:03,820 S1: whole thing of it. Christy, what do you say? 616 00:34:04,740 --> 00:34:07,380 S3: Well, yes, I think that's insightful and true. And that's 617 00:34:07,380 --> 00:34:10,180 S3: one of the reasons why in our book, Deeply Love, 618 00:34:10,219 --> 00:34:13,890 S3: we give ten different empathy The practices, and one of 619 00:34:13,890 --> 00:34:17,089 S3: these we call the four A's of empathy. This just 620 00:34:17,090 --> 00:34:20,489 S3: really spells it out and puts some handrails on it 621 00:34:20,489 --> 00:34:23,010 S3: for men in that way. How do I do this? 622 00:34:23,290 --> 00:34:26,009 S3: And so it starts with that first day you ask. 623 00:34:26,050 --> 00:34:30,529 S3: You ask good questions with curiosity to invite someone to 624 00:34:30,570 --> 00:34:35,209 S3: share it. It's always their option not to share, but 625 00:34:35,210 --> 00:34:38,090 S3: you can always let them know you're interested and show 626 00:34:38,090 --> 00:34:41,850 S3: that by asking questions. And we have many questions. Sample 627 00:34:41,850 --> 00:34:44,450 S3: questions example questions in the book as well to help 628 00:34:44,450 --> 00:34:46,969 S3: with that and to give a starting place. So you 629 00:34:47,090 --> 00:34:49,330 S3: you don't even need to know what those questions are. 630 00:34:49,370 --> 00:34:52,490 S3: You can borrow ours. And then the second A is 631 00:34:52,489 --> 00:34:55,130 S3: as you are listening to their answers, you're attuning to 632 00:34:55,170 --> 00:34:58,370 S3: their emotions. You're trying to understand what is it that 633 00:34:58,370 --> 00:35:01,210 S3: they're feeling. And then you're asking them about that to 634 00:35:01,250 --> 00:35:03,930 S3: check it out, to see if you're right. Well, it 635 00:35:03,930 --> 00:35:08,089 S3: sounds like you're feeling really sad about that. Well, the 636 00:35:08,090 --> 00:35:10,850 S3: person might say, well, I'm not feeling really sad about it, 637 00:35:10,850 --> 00:35:14,080 S3: but I am feeling, um, I am feeling a little 638 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,839 S3: bit of sadness, but I'm. I'm more feeling anxious and 639 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,839 S3: they can clarify. And then you can. Oh, tell me 640 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,560 S3: more about that anxiety and what that feels like. And 641 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,279 S3: do you feel that in your body. So it's it's 642 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,520 S3: some guardrails again of how they can respond and how 643 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,799 S3: they can be present with empathy. And then the third 644 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,160 S3: one is acknowledging the significance of what they're hearing for 645 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,840 S3: the person personally. So an example of this might be, Chris, 646 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,760 S3: that I just last week was at a memorial service 647 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,640 S3: for my brother in law who died of pancreatic cancer, 648 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,280 S3: and he was the third close family member to die 649 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,920 S3: of cancer in my life in the last three years. 650 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,480 S3: So somebody that's listening to me and asking me about 651 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,799 S3: how was that memorial for you, Christi would acknowledge the 652 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,480 S3: significance of this being the third 1 in 3 years. 653 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,000 S3: And how did that feel for you? Uh, it's it's 654 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,480 S3: really personalizing it to me. And that's what listening with 655 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,560 S3: empathy is personal to the person that we're in relationship with. 656 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,359 S3: And then the fourth A is affirming strengths because of 657 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,560 S3: that vulnerability that empathy requires. We always want to affirm 658 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,680 S3: the person and let them know that we don't just 659 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,200 S3: see the vulnerability or the motion or the experience that 660 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,359 S3: they shared with us, but we see them as a 661 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,640 S3: whole person, and we see them in the image of 662 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,239 S3: Christ and Christ in them. And so we want to 663 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,480 S3: affirm that and affirm even their courage to share and 664 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,000 S3: to be vulnerable with us. 665 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,600 S1: I think I think what you've just done is open 666 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,200 S1: up a, a whole box of hope for somebody who's listening, 667 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,759 S1: especially in a, in a marriage relationship. It's like, I 668 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,560 S1: can't get him to talk. And it might be the opposite, 669 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,920 S1: because there are men who have more empathy than their 670 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,640 S1: wives do. I understand that. The other the other thing 671 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,879 S1: that we haven't talked about, though, that I really want 672 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,080 S1: to get to, is when you have can have empathy 673 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,790 S1: for yourself, because I think that is one of the 674 00:37:09,790 --> 00:37:13,950 S1: huge hurdles, especially for men, that they put themselves down. 675 00:37:13,989 --> 00:37:16,109 S1: You know, I should be further along than this and 676 00:37:16,110 --> 00:37:18,510 S1: I'm not. And how do I do that? And I 677 00:37:18,830 --> 00:37:20,750 S1: can't figure out how to do that. How do you 678 00:37:20,750 --> 00:37:25,029 S1: develop that empathy for yourself? We'll talk about that. Boy, 679 00:37:25,030 --> 00:37:28,510 S1: this hour has gone by quickly. Deeply loved is written 680 00:37:28,510 --> 00:37:31,870 S1: by the Galtiers. It's our featured resource. Just go to 681 00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:46,790 S1: Chris for. More straight ahead. You don't have to spell 682 00:37:46,830 --> 00:37:53,549 S1: Galtier to go to Chris. It is. Bill and Christy 683 00:37:53,590 --> 00:37:55,910 S1: are with us. They've written a number of books. Their 684 00:37:55,910 --> 00:38:02,590 S1: latest is really good. Deeply loved receiving and reflecting God's 685 00:38:02,590 --> 00:38:09,020 S1: great empathy for you. Featured resource Chris Fabry lives. I 686 00:38:09,020 --> 00:38:11,740 S1: want to get to that whole thing of of empathy 687 00:38:11,739 --> 00:38:14,219 S1: for yourself, because I think a lot of men and 688 00:38:14,219 --> 00:38:17,100 S1: women struggle with, but men will struggle with because they 689 00:38:17,100 --> 00:38:19,860 S1: start beating themselves up for, oh, I did this thing 690 00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:22,859 S1: and I shouldn't have said that. And so you get 691 00:38:22,860 --> 00:38:27,620 S1: this negative spiral and the negative self-talk and and you 692 00:38:27,620 --> 00:38:31,500 S1: cannot be empathetic when all you're thinking about is your 693 00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:34,540 S1: own thoughts or your own failures. Right. Bill. 694 00:38:35,219 --> 00:38:37,500 S2: Oh that's right. I mean, this is getting into our 695 00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:41,660 S2: specialty in soul shepherding. We call it Jesus centered psychology. 696 00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:45,460 S2: It's how we approach faith and discipleship in all of 697 00:38:45,460 --> 00:38:48,020 S2: our relationships that we need to understand some of the 698 00:38:48,020 --> 00:38:52,580 S2: dynamics here of emotions and giving and receiving empathy. And 699 00:38:52,580 --> 00:38:55,859 S2: so self empathy really gets into this. And so our 700 00:38:55,860 --> 00:38:59,980 S2: definition of self empathy, uh, might surprise some of the listeners, 701 00:38:59,980 --> 00:39:04,819 S2: but it's agreeing with God's empathy or agreeing with the 702 00:39:04,820 --> 00:39:08,330 S2: empathy of my friend who's listening to me. It's being 703 00:39:08,330 --> 00:39:12,810 S2: appreciative of that. It's having faith and trust in the Lord. Uh, 704 00:39:13,090 --> 00:39:16,489 S2: through prayer, through Scripture reading, but also through a friend. 705 00:39:16,690 --> 00:39:19,330 S2: You know, Jesus taught us to have love one another. Relationships. 706 00:39:19,330 --> 00:39:22,210 S2: That's his new commandment. And so we need to be 707 00:39:22,210 --> 00:39:24,969 S2: receiving in order to be able to give out of 708 00:39:25,010 --> 00:39:30,049 S2: the overflow. And when I'm self-critical or self neglecting or 709 00:39:30,090 --> 00:39:33,609 S2: have other examples of negative self-talk going inside, like you 710 00:39:33,650 --> 00:39:37,890 S2: were referring to, Chris, that's going to act like a, uh, 711 00:39:38,090 --> 00:39:43,290 S2: an obstacle, a wall that's blocking out whatever care God 712 00:39:43,290 --> 00:39:45,730 S2: and other people are giving to me. But when I 713 00:39:45,730 --> 00:39:49,450 S2: have self empathy, I'm accepting that I'm having these emotions. 714 00:39:49,450 --> 00:39:52,089 S2: I have a weakness. I have maybe a sin to 715 00:39:52,130 --> 00:39:55,969 S2: confess something I'm struggling with, and I can ask for 716 00:39:56,010 --> 00:39:58,529 S2: that empathy that I need. And then as it's coming, 717 00:39:58,530 --> 00:40:02,210 S2: I'm thankful and I'm appreciative. And so now I'm receiving 718 00:40:02,210 --> 00:40:05,440 S2: and benefiting from the care that God and others are 719 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:06,280 S2: offering to me. 720 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:08,640 S1: Christy, anything to add to that? 721 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,239 S3: Yeah, I'll just tell a story. Bill and I were 722 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,840 S3: headed to a family get together, and I was feeling 723 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,320 S3: some grief, and I was crying, and Bill was responding 724 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:21,440 S3: to me with empathy, and I was not receiving it. Unconsciously, 725 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,239 S3: I was resisting it because I was feeling shame that 726 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,840 S3: I was having emotions at a time that was inconvenient. 727 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:28,440 S3: A time when I wanted to be able to go 728 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,640 S3: and be present with other people. And Bill noticed that. 729 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,719 S3: And he said to me, Christy, it seems like you're 730 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,440 S3: not able to receive the empathy and the the care 731 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,760 S3: and the love that I'm feeling for you right now. 732 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,239 S3: I wasn't even aware that I was spoiling his empathy 733 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,640 S3: and his love until he said that it was such 734 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,160 S3: a gift that he alerted me to that, and I 735 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:55,120 S3: was able to recognize that actually, Satan's accusations were prevailing 736 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,720 S3: at that time within me and keeping me from being 737 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,040 S3: able to experience how deeply loved I am by God 738 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,510 S3: and by Bill, even in times of grief. 739 00:41:05,870 --> 00:41:09,750 S1: You know, that whole emotion thing? I really resonate with 740 00:41:09,750 --> 00:41:14,310 S1: that because I can be in some public place with 741 00:41:14,310 --> 00:41:19,870 S1: a stranger who's crying, and I will feel very pointed 742 00:41:19,870 --> 00:41:22,350 S1: about it because I feel like it's my fault. This 743 00:41:22,350 --> 00:41:25,469 S1: is what a person with shame will do. Bill, you 744 00:41:25,469 --> 00:41:28,070 S1: need you need to help me out. Or my wife 745 00:41:28,070 --> 00:41:31,109 S1: will be crying like you were. And I won't move 746 00:41:31,150 --> 00:41:33,509 S1: toward her because I feel like, well, I must have 747 00:41:33,510 --> 00:41:38,750 S1: done something wrong. I think it's my fault for what 748 00:41:38,750 --> 00:41:42,030 S1: it was. And most of the time was the time 749 00:41:42,030 --> 00:41:46,149 S1: it is. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's something else. And 750 00:41:46,150 --> 00:41:52,150 S1: if I could get over my reticence of that, not 751 00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:56,110 S1: liking that emotion and move toward her than if I am, 752 00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:58,670 S1: you know, there's something that I've said or done, it 753 00:41:58,670 --> 00:42:02,340 S1: gives me the opportunity to apologize and say, I'm really sorry. 754 00:42:03,020 --> 00:42:06,180 S1: Let's let's do that type of thing or. Oh, I 755 00:42:06,180 --> 00:42:10,380 S1: feel so bad about this situation. So you've just helped 756 00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:14,740 S1: break down that wall. But it takes one or both 757 00:42:14,780 --> 00:42:16,140 S1: doing it, doesn't it, bill? 758 00:42:16,660 --> 00:42:21,580 S2: Yeah. Empathy for our emotions is crucial to shame. We 759 00:42:21,660 --> 00:42:24,660 S2: cite a number of research studies and deeply loved. And 760 00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:29,660 S2: one of them found that when someone is dismissive of 761 00:42:29,660 --> 00:42:33,780 S2: our emotions, we we feel shame. And actually the shame 762 00:42:33,780 --> 00:42:36,940 S2: centers in our brain light up. So shame isn't only 763 00:42:36,940 --> 00:42:41,180 S2: from like abuse or being criticized, it's also from a 764 00:42:41,219 --> 00:42:45,180 S2: lack of empathy. We need that empathy. And as empathy 765 00:42:45,180 --> 00:42:48,259 S2: gets in, we're better able to be emotionally present for 766 00:42:48,260 --> 00:42:51,900 S2: other people and to love them better. And so that's 767 00:42:51,900 --> 00:42:54,500 S2: so much of what the Bible is teaching us. We 768 00:42:54,540 --> 00:42:56,460 S2: tend to apply it to like, okay, I need to 769 00:42:56,460 --> 00:42:58,820 S2: go out and love other people, which is so true. 770 00:42:58,980 --> 00:43:01,980 S2: But I also need to receive it as well. And 771 00:43:01,980 --> 00:43:05,660 S2: so we don't realize how important empathy is, and all 772 00:43:05,700 --> 00:43:08,299 S2: of our acts of compassion, the ways that we would 773 00:43:08,300 --> 00:43:11,620 S2: love other people, the ways that we would be responsible 774 00:43:11,620 --> 00:43:15,660 S2: and benefit from the truths of Scripture, is connected to relationship. 775 00:43:15,660 --> 00:43:18,460 S2: And the heart of relationships is how we listen and 776 00:43:18,460 --> 00:43:20,739 S2: care for each other. And so we need like put 777 00:43:20,780 --> 00:43:23,180 S2: new glasses when we read the Bible. And so in 778 00:43:23,180 --> 00:43:27,300 S2: Deeply Loved, we unpack over 100 empathy scriptures that people 779 00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:30,859 S2: aren't seeing, that empathy is everywhere from God and in 780 00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:33,819 S2: our relationships and the teachings of the apostles. It's just 781 00:43:33,820 --> 00:43:36,500 S2: the word empathy is not used that often, except in 782 00:43:36,500 --> 00:43:39,980 S2: some of the newer translations, but the reality, the substance 783 00:43:39,980 --> 00:43:44,260 S2: of empathy is everywhere. That's what makes our relationships really 784 00:43:44,260 --> 00:43:44,980 S2: work well. 785 00:43:45,420 --> 00:43:50,180 S3: And Chris, go ahead at soul shepherding. One of the 786 00:43:50,180 --> 00:43:52,299 S3: things that we tell those who come on retreat with 787 00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:57,460 S3: us is you will grow when you and I join 788 00:43:57,460 --> 00:44:00,890 S3: God and caring for you. See, that's the three way 789 00:44:00,930 --> 00:44:04,210 S3: empathy that we write about in Deeply loved receiving empathy 790 00:44:04,210 --> 00:44:09,050 S3: from God others, and agreeing and receiving it ourself. 791 00:44:09,290 --> 00:44:11,090 S2: Then we can overflow and give it to others. 792 00:44:11,690 --> 00:44:15,970 S1: Bingo. And that's where the Facebook clip I want to play. Just. 793 00:44:16,090 --> 00:44:18,770 S1: I had Henry Cloud on a couple of days ago 794 00:44:18,770 --> 00:44:22,450 S1: in anticipation of this program and I asked, I said, man, 795 00:44:22,489 --> 00:44:25,210 S1: it's hard for me to feel anything. And, you know, 796 00:44:25,250 --> 00:44:28,210 S1: be strong, man up. I just want you to hear 797 00:44:28,210 --> 00:44:31,290 S1: his the first response that he gave me. 798 00:44:31,730 --> 00:44:33,650 S7: Well, the first question I would ask is, do you 799 00:44:33,650 --> 00:44:37,410 S7: want to function well in life? Second one is, do 800 00:44:37,410 --> 00:44:40,049 S7: you want to have good relationships in life and have 801 00:44:40,050 --> 00:44:44,370 S7: other people feel close to you and trust you? And 802 00:44:44,370 --> 00:44:46,850 S7: the third one is, do you have any interest at 803 00:44:46,850 --> 00:44:48,370 S7: all in being like God? 804 00:44:51,850 --> 00:44:53,610 S8: Here's a good question. Those are very good questions. 805 00:44:53,650 --> 00:44:57,529 S7: Yeah. Just because if you are not quote what they 806 00:44:57,530 --> 00:45:00,319 S7: say in touch. Like it's, you know, some sort of 807 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:04,400 S7: new thing. God, I mean, it's so clear in the scriptures, 808 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,279 S7: he says, go and learn what this means, that I 809 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:13,839 S7: desire compassion and not sacrifice. Jesus felt this movement in 810 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,120 S7: literally the language here is from his bowels. That's an 811 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,120 S7: emotional movement of compassion for the people. 812 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,160 S1: What Henry Cloud said right there was exactly what you 813 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,000 S1: two have been talking about this whole hour, about men 814 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:34,359 S1: and their feelings and and empathy. And I think what 815 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,680 S1: you're talking about is can set people free. Don't you think, Bill? 816 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,440 S2: Oh, yeah, set me free. And so many people that 817 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,719 S2: we've worked with over the years in our retreats and 818 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,399 S2: soul shepherding, you know, people come into our retreats and 819 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,960 S2: they they understand the word empathy. And many of them 820 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,399 S2: are in some form of ministry or care providing. But 821 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,640 S2: when they actually see it in action between Christie and me, 822 00:45:56,790 --> 00:45:59,190 S2: when they meet with their spiritual director, when when they're 823 00:45:59,190 --> 00:46:02,030 S2: in their conversations in an authentic community and they actually 824 00:46:02,030 --> 00:46:07,029 S2: experience empathy, they're like, oh, that's what it is. It's 825 00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:09,310 S2: like someone that's been living in a smoggy city all 826 00:46:09,310 --> 00:46:11,390 S2: their life. And I think that's what the air is like. 827 00:46:11,390 --> 00:46:14,270 S2: And then they go out in the country clean, fresh air, 828 00:46:14,469 --> 00:46:18,630 S2: breathing it in. Oh, wow, this is what I've been missing. 829 00:46:19,070 --> 00:46:21,350 S2: That's what happens when you experience empathy. 830 00:46:21,390 --> 00:46:24,750 S1: It's it's John 1010. I came to give life and 831 00:46:24,750 --> 00:46:28,989 S1: give give it abundantly. And it's it's being able to 832 00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:33,030 S1: walk in that forgiveness and that freedom and not free 833 00:46:33,030 --> 00:46:37,069 S1: of conflict, obviously. Oh, this is really good. Thank you 834 00:46:37,070 --> 00:46:40,549 S1: for joining us. Galtier's. If you go to Chris org 835 00:46:40,590 --> 00:46:45,070 S1: you'll see deeply loved receiving and reflecting God's great empathy 836 00:46:45,070 --> 00:46:48,509 S1: for you. Chris Fabry lives for production of Moody Radio, 837 00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:50,990 S1: a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.