S1: As time goes by, you'll find more and more traction.
S1: Just pay attention to those little nudges of your spirit
S1: that says, hey, it's time to move a little bit.
S1: And that's when these bigger ideas, these treatment plans and
S1: self brain surgery and all those things start being helpful
S1: to you.
S2: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S2: the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages. Today,
S2: a brain surgeon with 20 years of experience offers a
S2: prescription for hope after a catastrophic life event.
S3: His name is doctor Lee Warren. He's an award winning author,
S3: a neurosurgeon and Iraq War veteran. He's seen a lot
S3: of patients who have looked to him for hope. But
S3: the story he's going to tell today, the main story,
S3: is an experience that he went through, which was the
S3: darkest night of the soul that you can go through.
S3: I think a featured resource is the book Hope Is
S3: the First Dose, a treatment plan for recovering from trauma,
S3: tragedy and other massive things. You'll hear more about that
S3: as we go along. Find out more at building relationships.us. Gary,
S3: you've gone through some hard life events and you've walked
S3: through some difficult times with families at your church, right?
S4: Well, you're right, Chris, no question about it. Things with
S4: my wife and her cancer experience, you know, 12 years
S4: ago was a really traumatic time. But fortunately for us,
S4: you know, she came through that. And I've always been
S4: grateful for that. But yeah, my office has been filled
S4: with stories of pain and trauma and hurt and disappointment
S4: and and all of those things through the years. So
S4: I'm very excited about our conversation today, and I know
S4: that our listeners are going to find this to be helpful.
S3: Yeah, especially this time of year when some of these
S3: events will come back to us, as you had, you know,
S3: between Thanksgiving and Christmas. So let me introduce doctor Lee Warren.
S3: He is a retired major of the United States Air Force,
S3: an Iraq War veteran who performed more than 200 brain
S3: and spine surgeries. He's an award winning author of the
S3: book I've Seen the End of You. He holds two U.S.
S3: patents for minimally invasive surgical equipment and is the inventor
S3: of numerous high impact medication devices. You got to know
S3: that before we talk with him. He and his wife, Lisa,
S3: have four adult children, four grandchildren. They live in Nebraska
S3: and are featured resource again is Hope is the first dose.
S3: You can find out more at building relationships.us.
S4: Well Doctor Warren, welcome to Building Relationships.
S1: Oh thanks Gary. It's so good to be with you
S1: and good to be with you again, Chris.
S4: Well, first I want to thank you for your service
S4: to our country. You know, sometimes we take for granted
S4: those men and women who serve in the military. So
S4: I want to thank you for that. Can you say
S4: a few words about why you got interested in neurosurgery
S4: and decided to serve in the Air Force?
S1: Yeah. So, um, I was one of those kids that,
S1: for whatever reason, I just knew my whole life I
S1: wanted to be a doctor. My parents said I never
S1: said anything else other than being a doctor. But I
S1: grew up in a really small town in Oklahoma. Gary
S1: and I always thought I was going to become a
S1: family practice doctor and go back to a small town
S1: like the one I'd grown up in. But as it
S1: turns out, um, God had other plans for me. And, um,
S1: during my third year of medical school, uh, my son
S1: Mitchell decided to be born, and he he kind of
S1: wrecked my schedule, and they allowed me to change my
S1: schedule so I could take a little time off when
S1: Mitch was born, and I ended up having to take
S1: a rotation in neurosurgery, which was never on my radar.
S1: And after just a day or two on the neurosurgery service, man,
S1: there were computers and lasers and brain surgery, and it
S1: was just the coolest thing. And I found my calling
S1: because of a schedule change that came about because of
S1: my son, Mitch and I had grown up around airplanes.
S1: Both my parents were private pilots, and and I just
S1: always loved flying and all of that kind of things.
S1: So when it got time to figure out how I
S1: was going to pay for medical school, I found out
S1: about the Air Force scholarship, and I applied for it
S1: and was blessed to receive a full scholarship from the
S1: US Air Force. So I went to med school. You
S1: paid for it. So thank you for that taxpayer school.
S4: Well, I'm glad that worked out. Now, if you were
S4: to share one story from your time in Iraq, what
S4: would it be?
S1: Oh, wow. It'd be hard to pick one. Um, but
S1: I think the most, uh, the one that stays with
S1: me the most is we had, um, a gentleman who
S1: was brought in by American medics. And most people probably
S1: don't know this, but, um, the, the coalition medical forces,
S1: if there was a battle or a bomb went off
S1: or anything, we would pick up everybody. Even the enemy
S1: got brought to our hospital. So we operated on on
S1: the quote unquote good guys and the bad guys, and
S1: we provided the same care for the insurgents that were
S1: setting off the bombs, as we did for the military
S1: members and civilians who were injured by them. And so
S1: there was a a gentleman who was brought in, who
S1: was said by the security forces to have been the
S1: the guy who set this bomb off. And it was
S1: amazing to see how everybody taking care of him was
S1: sort of almost afraid of him. And, you know, just
S1: sort of at first or kind of almost begrudgingly taking
S1: care of this guy because he was the one who
S1: killed all these American servicemen and. As we did our
S1: jobs and we took care of them. A few days later,
S1: some other soldiers showed up who had been on the
S1: scene and they basically said, no, y'all got the wrong guy.
S1: This man was just standing there. He was innocent, and
S1: it was amazing to see how everybody's attitudes changed towards
S1: this person because we had the right story attached to him.
S1: And after that, this was really early in my deployment,
S1: and after that, it was amazing how everybody just made
S1: this decision that, hey, we don't know the whole story
S1: of anybody, and our job is to just take care
S1: of people. And that just really transformed the whole deployment,
S1: is that we no longer had this burden that we
S1: thought we needed to know whether somebody was good or bad.
S1: And it just kind of reminded me of how Jesus
S1: takes care of all of us, even though we don't
S1: deserve it. So that that kind of was one of
S1: the memories that sticks out the most.
S4: Well, that's a huge lesson to be learned in life. Well,
S4: because we don't know, even in non-critical situations, we don't
S4: know behind the scenes. Yeah, well, your new book is
S4: Hope is the First Dose. And in it you describe
S4: what you call the tlmt or the massive thing. What
S4: is the massive thing?
S1: Well, I use that terminology because the subtitle is trauma,
S1: tragedy and other massive things. So I said that because
S1: we all talk about trauma, it's easy to understand trauma.
S1: You know, it's the car wreck, it's the accident. It's
S1: the injury. Sometimes it's something that happens to you or
S1: that sort of thing and tragedy we can understand. It's
S1: the hurricane, the tornado, the, you know, the the innocent
S1: victim kind of thing. But we also have this whole
S1: group of things that happen to many of us in
S1: our lives that that are less easy to define, these
S1: emotional wounds that happen to us, um, the death of
S1: a dream or the loss of a relationship or things
S1: that aren't necessarily classified as traumas or tragedies, but they're
S1: equally massive. And so I wanted to give space to
S1: the people who are hurting out there with a less
S1: traditional definition of their problem. And so for us, you know,
S1: we we lost a son in 2013. I'm sure we'll
S1: talk about that. And it was it was the most
S1: devastating thing that ever happened to us. And it and
S1: it was something that happened to a member of our family.
S1: And it was just it was massive. I couldn't find
S1: another way to describe it. So I so I just
S1: use that as the title to just try to cover
S1: all the different ways that humans can feel pain.
S4: Yeah, yeah. Before we talk about the massive thing in
S4: your life and hear that story, I mean, I really
S4: want to hear that, uh, what are some of the
S4: ways that people handle massive things which they encounter in life?
S1: You know, it's interesting. I've been studying this my whole career.
S1: You know, as a as a neurosurgeon, I interact with
S1: people at their worst moments with the I'm the guy
S1: that tells them that they have fatal brain cancer or
S1: that their child didn't make it after they hit their head. Or,
S1: you know, I'm the guy delivering that news all the time. And, um,
S1: it occurred to me at some point during my career that,
S1: you know, hopelessness is really deadlier than cancer. So one
S1: of my jobs is to help people find a way
S1: to land on some ability to move forward and and
S1: find hope no matter what they're facing. And so I
S1: started studying the ways that people handle these issues. And
S1: I've noticed that there's kind of four different ways that
S1: and I think most people are a blend of these things.
S1: But there are sort of four different categories. I describe
S1: them in the book with graphs and pictures. But but
S1: there's these people that seem to be almost untouchable, right?
S1: That they have their faith figured out. They know who
S1: they are, they've made their decisions about what they believe.
S1: And when something hard happens, it's like it's almost like
S1: it doesn't faze them. They just sort of plow through it.
S1: And they set a good, good example for everybody. And
S1: I'm not one of those people, by the way, but
S1: you see them. And then the polar opposite is the
S1: group that I call crashers in the book. And these
S1: are the people that would say that they have a
S1: faith or they're strong or they're happy or whatever. And
S1: then something hard happens and it just wipes them out.
S1: And and Gary, the thing I've noticed about these folks
S1: is that they crash emotionally and even if they survive
S1: their illness, some of these people never make it back
S1: to anything that would look like a life again, happiness
S1: or hopefulness again. And you know, this this person is
S1: the one that, you know, lost their their wife 30
S1: years ago or, or something bad happened to him 30
S1: years ago. And if you see him on the street today,
S1: that's still what they're going to talk about. They're still
S1: just identified by this thing that happened to them. And
S1: so they're they're crashers. And then there's the I think
S1: most of us are what I would call dippers, that
S1: something hard happens and it wipes us out for a while.
S1: We're shaking our fist at God. We're not sure what
S1: we believe anymore. And somehow we land on something that holds.
S1: The bottom holds. And we and we find our feet
S1: and we find our faith, and we sort of make
S1: it back to some new state that's different but still meaningful.
S1: And that's probably most of us. I call them dippers
S1: in the book. And the most surprising group. I had
S1: a patient named Joey, who I call him a climber.
S1: Joey was this down and out kid who his mom
S1: died at birth and his dad was a criminal and
S1: never was around. Abandoned them and he. Was a drug addict,
S1: and I met Joey when he was a sort of
S1: got in a fight with the drug enforcement agent at
S1: a crack house that he was running, and got hit
S1: in the head with a club and had a skull fracture.
S1: I had to do emergency surgery on him, and in
S1: the course of that surgery, discovered that Joey had a
S1: brain tumor that had not been previously diagnosed. And so
S1: when I told him after surgery, hey, you've got brain cancer,
S1: he sort of shrugged his shoulders and kind of said, well,
S1: of course, you know, why wouldn't I have brain cancer?
S1: Everything else in my life is terrible. And so he
S1: had this, this bad life. But over the course of
S1: the year in which his cancer was raging and he
S1: ended up dying, he found a chaplain, befriended him and
S1: showed him about Jesus, and he reconnected with his family.
S1: He just sort of came alive and found hope in
S1: the last year of his life. And shortly before he died,
S1: Joey told me, this is the best year ever, like
S1: I've had the best year of my whole life. And
S1: so he he found that adversity for him kind of
S1: opened the door for him to come alive for the
S1: very first time. And so I just saw this, this
S1: host of different ways that people respond to trauma and
S1: tragedy and tried to sort out what separates them from
S1: each other. Yeah.
S4: I'm sure that many of our listeners, some will identify
S4: with one of those and some with another. But I
S4: think you've tapped into what seems to me to be
S4: also some common ways that people respond.
S2: This is building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S2: the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages. For
S2: more ways to strengthen your relationships or to take a
S2: brief online quiz to determine your love language, go to
S2: our website. Building Relationships us. You can also find our
S2: featured resource. Their hope is the first dose a treatment
S2: plan for recovering from trauma, tragedy and other massive things.
S2: It's written by our guest, doctor Lee Warren. Find out
S2: more at building relationships.us.
S4: Well, Doctor Warren, take us back to 2013. And the
S4: phone call that you received. You alluded to this earlier.
S1: Yeah. So we're, you know, we're living our life, and
S1: we have, uh, Lisa and I lived in Auburn, Alabama
S1: at the time, and two of our kids were students, um,
S1: that were or had been students at Auburn. And we
S1: had made our life there. And, um, our youngest daughter
S1: was still living at home with us. And then my
S1: phone rings on a Tuesday night, and I looked down
S1: and answered the phone, and, um, it's my ex-wife, and
S1: she's hysterical and and, uh, she tells me that our
S1: son Mitch has been stabbed to death. Um, it turns
S1: out that he and his best friend were both 19. Um,
S1: his boys had been best friends for many years, and and, uh,
S1: police found them both in this house. Uh, both stabbed
S1: to death. Three, three bloody knives in the house. And and, Gary,
S1: we never really got the story of what actually happened.
S1: There was a lot of speculation. Was it a third party?
S1: Was it a murder suicide? Was it, was it what?
S1: And the police never gave us a satisfactory answer. And
S1: so we were given this, um, devastating, you know, horrible
S1: event in our lives. And it was made worse by
S1: the fact that we don't really know what happened.
S4: Well, well, what were you in a state of shock?
S4: I mean, I can hardly imagine getting that kind of news.
S1: They? Absolutely. We were in a state of shock. And
S1: we you know, we lived about an hour away from
S1: where he was when he died in another small town
S1: close to Auburn. And so we gathered up Caitlin and
S1: called Kimber, our middle daughter, who also lived in Auburn,
S1: was going to school there, and we all and Lisa's
S1: parents and we all drove over there. And, you know,
S1: we're standing outside the house where these boys were. The
S1: police wouldn't let us go in, of course. And and
S1: it just was this, uh, slowly evolving nightmare that you
S1: kept thinking they were going to walk out and say
S1: it was all a mistake. You know, that sort of
S1: disbelief that you feel.
S4: Was he a student at the time?
S1: Uh, he had actually he had taken a break from
S1: school and he was working. And so that's why he
S1: was in the next town over there. He was kind
S1: of had some times where he wanted to flex his independence.
S1: And we'd argued about that. And, you know, he he
S1: was kind of one of these kids that wanted to
S1: kind of do things his own way for a little while.
S1: And he had just sort of started to figure it
S1: all out. In fact, the day before he died, this
S1: was a one of the things I struggle with God
S1: about is the day before Mitch died, he had called
S1: me and said, dad, I want to come home. I'm
S1: ready to go back to school. You know, you were right.
S1: I shouldn't have stepped out of school, and I love you.
S1: We had this great conversation for about an hour, and
S1: the last thing I heard my son say was, I
S1: love you. And the last thing he heard me say
S1: was that I loved him. And. And then 24 hours later,
S1: he was dead.
S4: Too. Well. Well, I'm sure the fact that he did
S4: call and did say that. Was was some comfort. I
S4: would think, you know that you you heard his heart.
S4: You know, at that time.
S1: That's that's been a blessing to to have that memory.
S4: Yeah. Well, well, well, as you talk about this now,
S4: it's been more than ten years now. Is it different
S4: now that you've had time to process it or where
S4: does it stand now? What's it like now?
S1: Yeah. You know, it is different. And I think honestly
S1: from a neuroscience standpoint, there's a there's a real crossroads
S1: that you come to. And we understand now from brain
S1: imaging and what happens in the cingulate gyres and all
S1: that when you get stuck in complex grief. But there
S1: are people who who get stuck in that place, and
S1: it becomes kind of the only thing that can revolve around.
S1: And then there are other people. Most people find their
S1: way through it. And and what happens is if you
S1: find your way through it like we have, it has
S1: evolved over time to where it's this weird, simultaneously worst
S1: moment in our lives. And at the same time, we've
S1: seen the way that God has been faithful and he's
S1: kept promises and he's made good things come of it.
S1: And and so we've we've found meaning and purpose in
S1: our lives despite losing Mitch and in some ways because
S1: of losing Mitch, that that ah, like I said, it's
S1: just complex. And anybody that's been through something like that
S1: will be able to articulate that. There are ways in
S1: which their life has grown. And and I know that
S1: I'm a better person now, and I'm and I'm helping
S1: people in a different way than I could before. But
S1: at the same time, you would if you could snap
S1: your fingers and have them back, you would do it
S1: in a heartbeat.
S4: Yeah, yeah, I would think that when it's someone as
S4: young as that, it's more difficult than to accept, you know,
S4: a tragic death of someone who's further along, you know,
S4: in life's journey.
S1: Yes. Yeah, I've talked to lots of bereaved parents now,
S1: you know, shortly after I lost matches when I started
S1: writing and blogging, and that led to podcasting and all
S1: the stuff that I do now. And and that has
S1: put me around and Lisa and I, around hundreds of
S1: other bereaved parents and and I had all these assumptions,
S1: you know, I thought, well, it'd be easier if your
S1: kid had cancer and you knew that it was coming.
S1: It'd be easier. Turns out it's not. It's harder. And
S1: those people, in some ways, it'd be easier if we
S1: understood exactly what happened. But then when you have when
S1: you meet parents who know exactly what happened to their child,
S1: it's not easier. So I think that that old saying
S1: about how grief expands like a gas to fill up
S1: the container that it's in, that means that grief is
S1: different for everybody, and we all suffer together, but we
S1: grieve alone.
S3: Yeah, there's a story that you tell in the book, Lee,
S3: about getting a phone call, and this is in the
S3: middle of the grief when you've just said, I'm I'm
S3: out of here. I'm not going to I can't, I
S3: can't work, I can't do anything. And there was a
S3: doctor who just wanted to consult with you. Can you
S3: talk about that?
S1: We owned our own business, Gary, and had ten employees. And,
S1: you know, after a few weeks, it became apparent that
S1: we were either going to have to close our practice
S1: and let all our employees go, or we were going
S1: to have to go back to work. And, um, we
S1: still had a kid at home and mortgage to pay.
S1: And so we just had to go back to work.
S1: So I made a decision that I was going to
S1: go back and see patients, but not perform surgery for
S1: a while. And, um, in that very first week of
S1: going back to the office, I received a phone call
S1: from the emergency department of our hospital about a little
S1: boy who had been hurt on the playground at school and,
S1: and had a brain hemorrhage. And I agreed to look
S1: at the scan to give some advice. And as soon
S1: as I saw the scan, I knew this child was
S1: not going to survive long enough for us to fly
S1: him to Birmingham or Atlanta. And I was the only
S1: neurosurgeon in Auburn, so that I had to decide that
S1: I was going to go back to take care of
S1: this kid, or he was going to die. And I
S1: just Lisa and I talked about it for a minute,
S1: and although I didn't think I had it in me
S1: at the same time, I couldn't let this boy die
S1: and have another set of parents go through what we
S1: had just gone through. So I went and took care
S1: of him.
S4: So we can we can function even in the midst
S4: of processing our grief to some degree. Right? Yeah, yeah. Ah,
S4: you alluded to this earlier. Uh, you say in the
S4: book that cancer is not the deadliest thing that can
S4: happen to a person. So what is the deadliest thing
S4: that can happen?
S1: I think it's hopelessness. Like I said, if you lose hope,
S1: you just get stuck in this misery and hopelessness and
S1: it can almost become, as my friend the chaplain said,
S1: like your your grief or your massive thing or whatever
S1: it is, it happens to you. If you lose hope,
S1: it can become like an idol, like bigger than God.
S1: It can become something that's so big that you can't
S1: see a possibility of even God being able to help
S1: you with it. And so hopelessness turns out to be
S1: the thing that the single deadliest thing that can happen
S1: to you. Because at that point, it doesn't matter what
S1: your disease or what the situation does, you're still not
S1: going to recover unless you can find a way towards hope.
S4: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. What are what are some
S4: of the physical and psychological damages of hopelessness?
S1: Well, I think it's it's really clear. Um, and I
S1: can just give you my example, like in my own
S1: body when I'm grieving, when I was suffering after losing
S1: Mitch for a while and and didn't, I was in
S1: that early place where you don't think it's ever going
S1: to be okay again. And, I mean, I woke up
S1: in my molars were cracked. I broke all the teeth
S1: in my mouth, I developed shingles, I developed gray hair, like, overnight.
S1: I went to bed blonde headed and woke up mostly
S1: gray hair one day. And and just physiologically, my body
S1: was breaking down and I felt like that guy in
S1: Lamentations that talks about how his God is grinding him
S1: to dust, you know, breaking his bones and grinding him
S1: to dust. We also know that it creates tremendous neurotransmitter
S1: problems in your brain. And so hopelessness creates an avenue
S1: that easily becomes crippling anxiety or depression or stuck in
S1: grief states. And and so and physiologically also you can
S1: have hypertension, you can develop hormonal issues and imbalances and
S1: it can promote illness and reduce immunity. So hopelessness really
S1: hurts you all over your body. Mhm.
S4: Yeah. Now, you say in the book that you can't
S4: change your life until you change your mind. Unpack that
S4: for us.
S1: Well, it's a almost tongue in cheek thing that I
S1: teach people in my on my podcast that we call
S1: self brain surgery. But the reason it's not tongue in
S1: cheek is we know from the Bible, for example, in
S1: Romans 12 two, if you if you want to stop
S1: conforming and being anxious all the time to what the
S1: world wants you to think about, you have to transform
S1: your mind. And the Bible says that plainly. Philippians four
S1: is about you want to stop being so anxious, be
S1: more grateful and think about better things. So it's clear
S1: that what you think about makes your life better. But
S1: now we can put somebody in a functional MRI scanner,
S1: for example, and we can ask you to think about
S1: something negative and we can see what happens to the
S1: blood flow and neurotransmitters state in your brain. And then
S1: we can ask you to think about something happy, some
S1: good memory that you have. And we can watch that
S1: stuff change in real time. Like the the things you
S1: think about turn genes on and off in your brain.
S1: They influence the transcription of proteins. They influence the levels
S1: of neurotransmitters in the production of hormones. And that influences
S1: how cells get produced or reproduced in your body. Like
S1: thoughts become things we say. So if you really want
S1: to learn how to change your life when you go
S1: through something hard, you have to do what Paul talks
S1: about in Second Corinthians chapter ten when he says, you
S1: have to take your thoughts captive like you have about
S1: 40,000 negative thoughts a day. It's been measured in 5
S1: to 1. They're not true feelings and thoughts aren't necessarily true,
S1: but they come with such a commanding voice because it
S1: sounds like your voice that you think they are true.
S1: And so if you can't learn how to think about
S1: what you think about, then you're always reacting to those
S1: negative thoughts. And if most of them are false, then
S1: you're spending most of your life reacting to something that's
S1: never true. And that can't lead you to a good place.
S1: So I had to learn. Like, for example, we had
S1: to get our thinking under control. And I'll give you
S1: a good example of that. Gary, I teach something called
S1: the bad thought biopsy just because I'm a brain surgeon.
S1: So if I want to know what something is, if
S1: I see a spot on your scan, I want to
S1: know what it is. I put a needle in it
S1: and take a piece of it and look at it
S1: under the microscope, so I can identify what it is.
S1: Before I decide that you need chemotherapy or brain surgery
S1: or whatever you might need. Right. If I told you
S1: we're just going to go to surgery, every time he
S1: told me he had a headache, then you'd think I
S1: was crazy. So we have to we have to look
S1: at the tissue. And if you do that with your thinking,
S1: sometimes you'll find that the thought is negative. And when
S1: it is and it's false, and you need to discard
S1: that false negative thought and replace it with a true one.
S1: But this the tricky thing, and I think this is
S1: a work of the enemy. Sometimes it's psychology and sometimes
S1: it's spiritual warfare, but sometimes you have a thought that
S1: is true. And for the bereaved parent, you'll have a
S1: thought like, well, I've lost a child. I won't ever
S1: be able to be happy again, or, or I'm not
S1: a good parent, and you'll have those kinds of thoughts,
S1: but then you'll say, wait a minute, that is not true,
S1: that I'm not a good parent because I've been a
S1: good parent to my other kids, and then you can
S1: react instead of reacting to that false thought. You can
S1: react to the true thought that you are a good
S1: parent who's lost a child, right? But then sometimes you'll
S1: have a thought that is true. Like like I've lost
S1: a child and I'm always going to be sad about that.
S1: And that's true. I'll always be sad about losing Mitch.
S1: But then what happens is they throw that sneaky second
S1: thought in there like, well, since I can't be happy again,
S1: then I might as well just drink until I can't
S1: feel anything. And that's not true, right? So you have
S1: to watch out for that follow on negative thought and
S1: react to the true ones and replace the false ones.
S1: And that's how you can change your mind and change
S1: your life.
S4: The turning to drugs and alcohol during the midst of that.
S4: It's pretty common, right?
S1: It's very common. And the problem is, and it doesn't
S1: have to be substances, it can be eating or television
S1: or Instagram or, you know, anything. But but we use
S1: things to numb ourselves from what we're feeling to, to
S1: stop feeling the things that we're feeling. And the problem
S1: is we wake up the next day and we still
S1: have those things to think about. And now we've got
S1: other problems because of the numbing behaviors that we've done
S1: or the ignoring things that needed to be dealt with.
S1: And we have this, what we call the tomorrow tax. Like,
S1: you wake up tomorrow and you got to pay a
S1: tax on what you did yesterday and you still have
S1: the same problem. And so numbing is a bad choice
S1: because you can't feel anything else when you're numb either.
S1: You can't selectively numb part of the problem and the
S1: rest of your life is okay. You can't. You just
S1: end up numbing your whole life, and then your quality
S1: of life becomes defined by which numbing agent you choose
S1: instead of the opportunity you have to move forward.
S2: Thanks for joining us today for building relationships with Doctor
S2: Gary Chapman. You can find us online at Building relationships.us.
S2: We have some great resources, a list of seminar locations
S2: coming up for Doctor Chapman. You can hear a podcast
S2: of the program and find our featured resource. Doctor Lee
S2: Warren's book, Hope is the first dose. Just go to
S2: building relationships with us.
S3: Doctor Warren, I want to know about the way that
S3: you grieved. And was it any different with other members
S3: of your family, the folks that you know you love
S3: and you care about and who loved Mitch too? And
S3: how did you navigate that in the family?
S1: Yeah. You know, that's interesting question. And I think it's
S1: important to note and and really for people that are listening,
S1: if you're going through something hard like this, no two
S1: people grieve in the same way or on the same timeline.
S1: And I think especially with married people like we have this,
S1: this role that we play of trying to be a
S1: comforter for our, for our loved one. Right? So and
S1: for your children too. And so you, you try to,
S1: to buck up under it and make sure you be
S1: there for them when you can tell that they're having
S1: a hard time. And so we almost have to go
S1: in these cycles of, you know, I'm having a hard
S1: time and she's going to be strong right now. And,
S1: and it seems like we sort of play off each
S1: other and try to help each other. So so you
S1: have to notice that people have grieving schedules that they're
S1: going to go through that are different than yours. And
S1: so I think it's a human nature thing that, you know,
S1: somebody that's outside of your family will say weird things like, oh,
S1: that happened a year ago. You haven't moved past that yet.
S1: You're not okay yet. They like they've got some kind
S1: of clock that happens when you're supposed to be grieving.
S1: And we have to be really careful not to do
S1: that with our loved ones, because everybody's on a different timetable.
S1: And I think, as an aside, I think it's it's
S1: almost unfortunate that Elizabeth Kubler-Ross work has been applied so
S1: broadly across anybody who's hurting over anything because her, you know,
S1: everybody knows the five stages of grief. And they're all
S1: taught that in school. And and it's all over the internet.
S1: But but Kubler-Ross research was very specifically looking at people
S1: who had received news that they were dying, right, that
S1: they had terminal cancer. And it was specifically studying how
S1: people react to the news that they have a terminal illness.
S1: And it was never she never intended it for a
S1: general model of how people grieve and over any type
S1: of trauma or stress. And so you'll find if you
S1: lose a child or you go through something massive like this,
S1: you're not going to proceed through denial, anger, bargaining, sadness
S1: and acceptance or depression and acceptance in an orderly way.
S1: It's going to look more like a labyrinth, and you're
S1: going to go back and forth, and some days you'll
S1: be really angry, and some days you'll be sort of okay,
S1: and the next day you'll be denying it again, like
S1: it just you're going to move back and forth. And
S1: I think we tend to want it to be orderly
S1: when other people are experiencing it. And so we tend
S1: to sort of say, wow, you haven't moved through that yet.
S1: You should be further along. And we just have to
S1: be really cognizant of the fact that we suffer together,
S1: but we grieve alone.
S4: In my counselling, I've often had husbands who say to wives,
S4: you know, when they both experienced some trauma in their life,
S4: you got to get over this now. You've got to
S4: get over this now. Yeah. You know, and he he's
S4: probably not over it either. You know, he's found a
S4: different way of kind of coping with it. And he
S4: feels like he's further along than she is. And so
S4: he's preaching to her. But that's right. But it's, it's
S4: empathy and allowing people to grieve in their way.
S1: Right. That's right.
S4: You say there's a single predictor of people's ability to
S4: withstand hardship? What is that predictor?
S1: Yeah. I think after all the research I've done and
S1: all the experience that I have now, both observing other
S1: people's problems in my own, I think the thing that
S1: separates those four types of people that we talked about
S1: the most, I think it's how tightly coupled we have
S1: between circumstance and our emotional state. And in other words,
S1: the people who define whether they're happy or hopeful based
S1: on who they're married to, how long they live, what
S1: their financial situation is, if they if they tie their
S1: emotional sort of fortitude to a set of circumstances that
S1: they could potentially lose, then they're in great danger because
S1: you will lose those things. And that's what I've noticed.
S1: Like there is going to be a massive thing for you.
S1: You are going to go through something hard. And so
S1: the more tightly coupled emotion and circumstances are in your life,
S1: the more danger you're in of becoming hopeless. When you
S1: lose some of those things that you thought you needed
S1: to have. And the other sort of sort of corollary
S1: to that is if you tie your emotional state to
S1: a set of circumstances, then you almost always find that
S1: when you achieve the thing that you thought you needed
S1: to be happy, the target will change and something else
S1: will become necessary for you to be happy. And you
S1: can see this in people who achieve some great things,
S1: or famous people, or celebrities or athletes. When they finally
S1: get to that place that they thought they were going
S1: to be happy, and now they need to win one
S1: more award or become the MVP, or, you know, something
S1: else needs to happen, or they can't maintain that happiness
S1: or that peace of mind. And so I think circumstances,
S1: the real bugaboo here, if you if you tie your
S1: joy or your hope to something that cannot be taken
S1: from you. And of course, Christians have a whole different
S1: definition of hope, right? Our hope is not for something,
S1: it's in someone. And so I think that's the secret
S1: for me. That's what I think I've noticed the most.
S5: Yeah.
S4: Which which brings to my mind that that Christians really
S4: have a tremendous asset when they're going through trauma, as
S4: opposed to people who don't have a relationship with God. Right?
S1: That's right. Absolutely. And I think it's important. But we
S1: ought to say it. You know, Christians have a well,
S1: not just Christians, but lots of people. When they go
S1: through something hard, they'll say, well, I don't believe in
S1: a God who would allow this to happen, or I
S1: don't understand how a good God could let my son die.
S1: They say things like that, but it's a very important
S1: that we put good theology on our suffering, because we
S1: can't hold God responsible for a promise he never made. Gary.
S1: And the promises God did make. If you look at Jesus,
S1: he said two things John 1633 and this world, you're
S1: going to have trouble and but take heart. I've overcome
S1: the world. John 1010 he says, hey, there's a thief,
S1: and that thief is going to come to steal and
S1: kill and destroy your life. But I've come to give
S1: you an abundant life. And he says that in the
S1: midst of the story, he didn't say, I've come to
S1: zap you up and beam you out of this world
S1: and make everything go your way. It doesn't say that.
S1: He says, I'm going to come down in your story
S1: with you and help you manage it in a way
S1: that you can have hope and real joy and real
S1: peace in the midst of that difficulty. And then I'm
S1: taking care of the rest of it on the back end.
S1: And so I think that's the that's the important piece.
S1: We shouldn't apply bad theology to our suffering. And that
S1: also plays into things that people say to you when
S1: your child dies, when people come along and say, well,
S1: I guess God needed another angel. Yeah, things like that.
S1: He doesn't make angels out of people. Folks, that's a
S1: bad theology.
S4: Yeah, yeah. So it's that's so true. Yeah. But I
S4: think there's a lot of people who who have the
S4: sense that if you're a Christian, you won't have problems.
S4: God won't let those big things happen to you. And
S4: that's just false, you know, for the reasons you just stated. Yeah, yeah. Now,
S4: there are some patients who describe in the book, uh,
S4: lucky Chuck and Tina, what lessons did you learn from
S4: your patients?
S1: Well, I told those two stories, uh, to illustrate kind
S1: of two sides of the same coin. Uh, Tina Tisdale
S1: was a woman who had a brain tumor, fortunately, not
S1: a cancerous brain tumor. And she had it removed successfully
S1: and was cured of her disease. But she developed a
S1: pretty common pain syndrome called post craniotomy syndrome, where people
S1: that have certain types of brain surgery that have sort
S1: of a headache and their incision kind of hurts. And,
S1: and they always have a little reminder pain that they
S1: used to have a brain tumor. And she was convinced
S1: in her mind, Gary, that she had a brain tumor
S1: growing back because she could feel something in her head
S1: and she could not believe that she was cured, even
S1: though multiple doctors and multiple scans showed her there is
S1: no more tumor in your head, and that that belief
S1: that she should be pain free, and that that lack
S1: of being pain free meant that she still had a tumor,
S1: drove her so desperately to her knees that she ended
S1: up taking her own life, like she just could not
S1: accept the idea that you could be free of disease
S1: and still have pain. She couldn't believe it, and so
S1: she ended up killing herself that she couldn't even look
S1: at the scan and let me show it to her
S1: with her eyes. She she her belief was so powerful
S1: that she ended up committing suicide. And lucky Chuck was
S1: this guy whose wife had died of cancer a few
S1: years before, and she told him something that turned out
S1: to be important and while she was sick. But while
S1: they did the biopsy and they hadn't had the results yet,
S1: she said, hey, Chuck, you decide. Now before we get
S1: these test results, you decide who God is to you.
S1: You decide what he means. You hang on to his promises.
S1: Because if I'm getting sicker and dying, you don't need
S1: to be worrying about whether God is real or not.
S1: Then you need to be able to rely on him then.
S1: So you make these decisions now before the hard time hits.
S1: And when he later developed, brain cancer was just when
S1: I met him. He had already covered all that ground.
S1: He knew exactly who God was. He knew exactly what
S1: the promises were. And he made a decision. He had
S1: this fatal brain tumor, and he didn't want to go
S1: through chemotherapy and radiation and all that painful stuff. He
S1: just wanted to go home. So he made this informed
S1: decision that he was going to just just let God
S1: take him home. He didn't undergo all the treatment, and
S1: he ended up passing away from his brain cancer. But
S1: he never wavered in his faith because he knew who
S1: he was. He knew where he was going, and he
S1: knew what God, who God was to him. And so
S1: he had something really wrong. But he didn't let it
S1: destroy his quality of life because he had hope in Christ.
S1: And Tina had nothing really wrong. And she let it
S1: ruin her life because she couldn't believe that you could
S1: have pain and purpose in the same life. Yeah.
S4: Powerful illustrations.
S2: This is building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S2: the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages. Our
S2: featured resource today is doctor Lee Warren's book Hope Is
S2: the First Dose a treatment plan for recovering from trauma, tragedy,
S2: and other massive things. Find out more at Building Relationships us.
S3: I have to ask you, Doctor Warren. We haven't covered
S3: this yet. You titled it? Hope is the first dose.
S3: Why did you choose that title?
S1: Well, you know, I try to give you a a
S1: brain surgeon metaphor type treatment plan for what you do
S1: when life hurts. And we and we kind of walk
S1: through the the ways in which my, my medical practice
S1: parallels a good plan for what to do with these
S1: massive things. But the reason I called it hope is
S1: the first dose is if you come to my office
S1: and you've got a brain tumor or something wrong with
S1: your back, I can give you the best plan I
S1: can say, hey, you know, Gary, Chris, here's the plan.
S1: I can if you just come to the hospital, I've
S1: got the team ready. We got the operating room ready,
S1: and we've got the plan that will put you back
S1: on your feet. And we're going to take good care
S1: of you. But the morning of surgery, if you wake
S1: up and you say, you know what? I don't think
S1: those doctors can help me. I really don't think I'm
S1: going to go down to that hospital. You can't get
S1: the treatment plan unless you have enough hope in the
S1: efficacy of that plan to put yourself in the car
S1: and go down to the hospital and sign the consent
S1: form and get surgery, right. So hope turns out to
S1: be the first dose, like hope is the reason that
S1: you can get yourself in the hospital and let the
S1: Great Physician take care of you.
S3: You know where I see that most Gary with you
S3: is phone calls here about marriages. We're we're over. We're done. That.
S3: I have no hope you experience that with couples, right?
S4: Yeah, absolutely. Because many times they're in the office and
S4: are on the phone who say we just don't have
S4: any hope. You know, we're too different. It's not going
S4: to work. And they lay out all those things, you know,
S4: and I've sometimes said, uh, you know, if I, if
S4: I have real empathy for them and kind of see
S4: where they're coming from, I said, well, you know, I
S4: can understand how you might feel that way. So why
S4: don't you go on my hope? I have hope for you.
S4: I remember the pain I felt in my marriage and
S4: the times I thought there was no hope, too. So,
S4: you know. Yeah. Which is really a basic way of
S4: trying to help them. Uh, go on. My hope for
S4: a little while until they can get hope, you know.
S4: But but hope really is a choice, right? I mean,
S4: it's it's not an emotion. It's it's a choice.
S1: Absolutely. And you can create it and you can create
S1: it by learning how you take a look at what
S1: people in the Bible did, for example, when they were hopeless.
S1: And you can find a way to do it yourself
S1: all the time. Yeah.
S4: But we know that there's a there's a lot of
S4: counselors out there and there are people that specialize in
S4: trauma counseling. So how does therapy fit into the treatment plan?
S1: I think therapy is a crucial piece because we can't always.
S1: In fact, many of us can ever put everything together
S1: in a way that makes sense when we're talking to ourselves,
S1: because we're not always a faithful witness for ourselves, and
S1: we don't always have the tools to be objective enough
S1: about our own lives. So I think a good a
S1: good therapist, especially one that's biblically grounded, I think can
S1: help us break down and understand, for example, that trauma
S1: is not the event that happens to you, right? It's
S1: what happens inside you in response to that event. And
S1: so then you can learn well, if it's not the
S1: event that happened, because I can't change that. It's the responses,
S1: then I can learn to analyze those responses and change
S1: them and I can develop healthier responses. Then I can
S1: really find hope we get to move forward. So I
S1: think the role for the therapist there is crucial to
S1: help us to break down those internal stories and those
S1: voices that we hear in the in the patterns of
S1: behavior that we've developed and protected a lot of times.
S1: And the therapist is really crucial part of that plan.
S6: Yeah.
S4: I think that's that is the role, you know, of
S4: the therapist is to help just walk with you through
S4: that thing and begin to help see other perspectives. Yeah.
S4: Is it possible for someone I think here, I think
S4: here's a question that a lot of Christians would ask,
S4: is it possible for someone who has experienced deep trauma
S4: to also experience the abundant life that Jesus talks about having?
S1: Is it possible? Absolutely. It's absolutely possible. Now, I would
S1: just I would refer the listener to the Book of Lamentations,
S1: which doesn't sound very helpful, but in the Book of
S1: Lamentations gives us a perfect example of that of of
S1: you get this horrible situation in the first two chapters
S1: of cities been ransacked, and the people have been drug
S1: off to Babylon, and the king's been killed, and all
S1: these terrible things are happening. Women are starving in the street,
S1: babies are starving to death. And then the writer in
S1: the third chapter, in the middle of the problem, not
S1: not after the problem has happened, but in the middle
S1: of it, he finds a way towards hope by remembering
S1: what God has done in the past. He goes back
S1: in memory and says, wait a minute, I'm not the
S1: first person this has ever happened to. God's come through
S1: for other people before. He's come through for me before. Like,
S1: I've got to this point in my life and I'm alive. So,
S1: so good things that God has been able to do
S1: good things out of bad things in the past. And
S1: therefore there's a reasonable basis for hope that he'll do
S1: it again. And he goes through this thing even gets
S1: to the point where he says, I've lost all hope.
S1: And then in the next breath he says, but in
S1: this I take hope. And then he recounts all those things.
S1: The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies
S1: never come to an end. All that stuff. And he
S1: builds a case for why it's reasonable to take hope, right?
S1: And so then he starts moving forward as if those
S1: promises are true, because he knows they have been in
S1: the past for other people. And that's how he's able
S1: to find himself hopeful again, even though the story isn't
S1: over yet. And I think in a New Testament theological concept,
S1: we have the same idea when Paul says, you know,
S1: forget what's behind strain towards what's ahead. God's got a
S1: plan for you, and he's going to help you change
S1: your mind. And it's not you never need to give up.
S1: It's always hope is always just around the corner is
S1: how Romans 1212 is translated in the voice. I love
S1: that hope's always just around the corner.
S4: Yeah. The corner. Yeah. That's great. I want to go
S4: back to your family because you experienced this as a family.
S4: How did you help your family working through the shared
S4: grief and trauma that all of you were having?
S1: Yeah. You know, the first thing I think was Lisa
S1: and I had I think it was a blessing that Kaitlyn,
S1: our youngest, was still in high school. She was a junior.
S1: And I think we had this, this pressure right to
S1: know that we had to move to help her. Yeah,
S1: we had we had to get moving again to help
S1: her not get stuck. And so we had this tangible
S1: person in our house who was looking to us like
S1: literally saying, what am I going to do today? Like
S1: how how am I going to make it through this?
S1: And so that, that put this, that put the, the
S1: point on the problem where we couldn't just wallow in
S1: our misery because we had her right in front of us,
S1: that was depending on us. So, so the first thing
S1: is we just loved on her and tried to make
S1: sure that we helped her as much as we could
S1: to get back on her feet. And then for me,
S1: we had our other three kids were scattered around the country,
S1: and I felt like, I'm this guy who communicates best
S1: through writing. So I started emailing all of them as
S1: a bunch every day. Something hopeful. I just said, I'm
S1: going to find some way to encourage my family today.
S1: And so Lisa and I would scour things and find
S1: scriptures and just and we started emailing and the kids
S1: started forwarding that stuff, and before long that turned into
S1: a newsletter and a blog and all this stuff that
S1: I do today. But it started with this, this burden
S1: that I had to say. I believe God has promises
S1: for us that are still valid, even though we've lost
S1: a child, and I need to share that with my
S1: kids so they don't lose hope too. And so for
S1: for me, it was just this daily sort of interaction
S1: with the kids that made me. I knew that they
S1: weren't going to get up in the morning and decide
S1: to lead me, that I they were looking to me
S1: to lead them. And so Lisa and I did that,
S1: and I'm just grateful that Katelyn was still at home
S1: with us.
S4: I think sometimes families don't talk, you know, don't communicate
S4: through this. You know, they just kind of let everybody
S4: handle it on their own and feeling like if we
S4: don't talk about it, if we talk about it, it'll
S4: make it worse. But that's not true, is it? You know,
S4: communication is important.
S6: Yeah.
S4: If someone's listening to us now who has their massive thing? We've.
S4: That's the term we've been using. Massive thing happens and
S4: they're going through it now. What would you say to
S4: them as we close our program today?
S1: I think the first thing is. So you've been hearing
S1: us talk about treatment plans and moving forward and all that,
S1: but but just like I tell my trauma patients in
S1: the E.R., like, if you really get hurt and you're
S1: bleeding like the the day of the injury is not
S1: the time to be implementing a complex treatment plan the
S1: day of the injury, if this is happening now, if
S1: you're in the middle of that massive thing now, just
S1: put some pressure on it and stop the bleeding. You know,
S1: get some people around you who are going to comfort you.
S1: Find you something that's encouraging some scripture or some some
S1: words or some books or some some podcasts or something.
S1: When you're ready to just start feeding yourself something hopeful,
S1: but don't think that you've got to recover and, you know,
S1: get in therapy and sign up for a support group
S1: and all that the day it happens. So you're not
S1: going to be ready for that. You got to let
S1: the acute phase of the injury settle down a little bit.
S1: But there's going to come a time in some period
S1: of time it'll be different for everyone. When you know
S1: it's time to start moving forward in your life again,
S1: you just feel it. You feel like I got to
S1: get moving or I'm going to get stuck here. And
S1: if you do that, if you feel that, then it's
S1: time to start moving. And that might look different for everybody.
S1: For us, there was a day when we said, you know,
S1: we really ought to get out of bed today and
S1: put our pants on and go check the mail like
S1: it was little things like that. There were some days
S1: when that's all we had the juice to do. As
S1: time goes by, you'll find more and more traction. And
S1: if you put good people around you. And that's why
S1: I think community and church and things like that are
S1: so important. You put some good people around you, people
S1: who love you and are going to say, hey, you know,
S1: maybe we ought to take a walk today. Maybe let's
S1: go get some lunch. You know, you start moving and
S1: moving creates energy. Energy creates optimism, I think, and optimism
S1: can create hope. Just pay attention to those little nudges
S1: of your spirit that says, hey, it's time to move
S1: a little bit. And that's when these bigger ideas, these
S1: treatment plans and, and self brain surgery and all those
S1: things will start being helpful to you.
S4: Well, Doctor Warren, I want to thank you for being
S4: with us today and thank you for writing this book.
S4: I hope you're listening not just for yourself, but you're
S4: listening for others that are in your circle of influence.
S4: And this book can be an extremely helpful to, I believe,
S4: to help people who are going through trauma. So let
S4: me encourage you to get a copy for yourself, but
S4: also think in terms of other people that you might
S4: want to give a copy of this to. But again,
S4: thank you, Doctor Warren, for being with us and sharing
S4: your own experience as well as you know, what you
S4: have learned through the years in terms of responding to
S4: very difficult things in life.
S1: Thank you Gary, it's a real pleasure to be with you.
S1: Thank you so much. And thanks, Chris and Andrea, to.
S3: Doctor Lee Warren's book is at our website. You can
S3: find it at Building Relationships with us. It's titled Hope
S3: is the First Dose A Treatment Plan for recovering from trauma, tragedy,
S3: and other massive things. Just go to building relationships.us.
S4: And next week, just two days before Christmas, we'll celebrate
S4: the reason for great joy.
S2: God with us. Please join us in one week. A
S2: big thank you today to our production team, Steve Wick
S2: and Janice. Backing building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is
S2: a production of Moody Radio in Chicago in association with
S2: Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible. Thanks, Phyllis.