S1: Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
S1: and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
S1: and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
S1: But before you go, I want to tell you about
S1: this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
S1: And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
S1: going out into the night sky and looking up and
S1: seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
S1: about God? And are you not in a moment of
S1: awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
S1: of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
S1: that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
S1: wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
S1: of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
S1: book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
S1: from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
S1: a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
S1: this sense of awe through the work that they do.
S1: In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
S1: it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
S1: because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
S1: to walk through the chapters written by people who all
S1: have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
S1: to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
S1: amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
S1: just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
S1: for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll
S1: send it right off to you as my way of
S1: saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or
S1: you can go online to in the market with Janet
S1: Parshall and you're also on the website, consider becoming a
S1: partial partner. Those are people who give every single month
S1: at a level of their own choosing. You always get
S1: the truth tool, but in addition to that, you get
S1: a weekly newsletter that includes my writing and an audio
S1: piece just for my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58
S1: or the website in the market with Janet Parshall. Consider
S1: becoming a partial partner or asking for this month's truth tool.
S1: Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4: Americans worshiping government over God.
S3: Extremely rare safety move by a major.
S4: 17 years, the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated a truce.
S3: Hi, friends.
S1: Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you
S1: for spending the hour with us. Okay. We're going to
S1: do some comparative theology. Wait. Come back. Don't run screaming
S1: from the room. In other words, you often hear me
S1: quote Dwight L Moody. Brilliant idea. It's such a great
S1: word picture. He refers to the Bible as the straight
S1: stick of truth. And when you think about it, it's brilliant,
S1: is it not? Because you use it as a plumb
S1: line to measure all ideas out there, crooked ideas, ideas
S1: that aren't in alignment with the Word of God? I
S1: also think it's important to do this because it helps
S1: us when we evangelize. Please tell me you're evangelizing. Don't
S1: use a lifeline or call a friend. Just tell me
S1: that it's fire in your bones and you can't wait
S1: to share the good news with somebody else. And so
S1: if you understand where someone else is coming from, while
S1: their ideas might not come into alignment with Scripture, it
S1: helps you, I think, in a more winsome, grace filled narrative,
S1: to be able to talk to that person about Jesus Christ. Right?
S1: So that's what we're going to do this hour, and
S1: we're going to focus particularly in on Islam. And our
S1: friend Abdul Murray is in the house, just loves spending
S1: time with this man. Oh, he keeps me on my toes.
S1: He makes my synapses snap the entire hour. And I
S1: bet he does it for you too. He's the president
S1: of Embrace the Truth Ministry. He offers the credibility of
S1: the gospel message as a speaker and a writer. He's
S1: authored multiple books, including Saving Truth, Grand Central Question, and
S1: his latest, More Than a White Man's Religion. And he
S1: was a practicing devout Muslim. Nine years. Would you have
S1: had the staying power to seek Jesus for nine years? Well,
S1: this man was deeply curious and had a hunger in
S1: his heart. So for nine years he turned over all
S1: kinds of stones historical ones, philosophical ones, theological ones, scientific ones,
S1: until he finally found himself at the foot of the cross,
S1: accepted Christ as his personal Savior. Boom! Old things pass away.
S1: All things become new. And now this lawyer by training
S1: is an advocate for the King. And he does a
S1: superb job just doing that. So vis a vis embraced
S1: the truth. He's got a fabulous podcast. And yeah, I'm
S1: you know, Paul says don't build on another man's work.
S1: I'm not going to. But I'll tell you what, I'll
S1: pick his brains, because what I listen to on his podcast,
S1: I think, is so good that if you're not following
S1: Embrace the Truth in their podcast, this is a catalyst
S1: for you to get even more interested and start listening
S1: to Abdul and his conversations on a more regular basis.
S1: So he recently was talking about Islam and what Muslims
S1: think about Jesus and Abdul. The warmest of welcomes. You
S1: made a statement that I thought was so interesting, and
S1: I bet it's going to challenge anybody who's listening with
S1: both ears on the side of their head right now.
S1: And you say that Muslims love Jesus. Now, I can't
S1: tell you. I know a whole lot of Christians that
S1: would say Christians love Muhammad. So I don't know that
S1: I can tip that back and forth and say it's
S1: equal in either camp. But to say that a muslim
S1: loves Jesus is stunning, because we think that Islam, a religion,
S1: created hundreds of years after Christianity that there would be
S1: an affinity at all for Jesus. When Muhammad is the
S1: one true prophet to the followers of Islam. So talk
S1: to me about the fact that they love Jesus. I
S1: find that interesting and intriguing.
S5: Yeah. Thanks, Janet, and it's always such a pleasure to
S5: be with you. Um, yeah, this is an interesting, uh,
S5: thing that surprises a lot of people, especially a lot
S5: of Christians, because what they end up hearing is Islam
S5: is this sort of anti-Christian religion in some ways, and
S5: in some ways, that's actually true. There is the sense
S5: in which Islam is a religion that is a competitor
S5: to religions that are already established in the Middle East,
S5: like the paganism of the day. Judaism, which also was, was,
S5: was extant in the Arabian Peninsula, but also Christianity. Uh,
S5: in fact, that's why the phrase Allahu Akbar actually exists.
S5: It's a God is greater. In other words, God is
S5: greater than the things you guys say about him because
S5: you're wrong about him. Now, having said that, because it's
S5: a competitor to Christianity, it's also, however, um, a comrade
S5: of Christianity to a degree in some sense. And that
S5: sense is that it has an affinity for Jesus and
S5: a number of other people who are mentioned in the Bible. Uh, David, Moses, Abraham, Noah,
S5: all these folks. Um, now, when Muslims say they love Jesus,
S5: they love Jesus as a prophet of God. They love
S5: him as someone who was virgin born. Uh, the Quran
S5: has an entire chapter dedicated to Jesus's mother. It's it's
S5: called Sura. Mariam. So Sura is a chapter of the Quran.
S5: Mariam is the Semitic way to say Mary. And so
S5: the chapter 19 of the Quran is all about Mary
S5: and all about the miraculous birth of Jesus as Mary,
S5: from Mary as a virgin. So Muslims Revere Jesus as
S5: a prophet of God who warned people to come back
S5: to true monotheism, which they believe is Islam. In fact,
S5: they believe that that Jesus was a muslim, that he
S5: actually preached Islam up to return to the dietary and
S5: other legal restrictions that were implemented by God originally, and
S5: to get away from any kind of paganism or other
S5: kind of, uh, sort of errant ways. The Jews had
S5: gone or other people had gone. Um, so they revered
S5: him as such. In fact, the Muslims understand that Jesus
S5: performed miracles. The Quran records many miracles, not the least
S5: of which is his virgin birth, but also that as
S5: a child, as an infant, he spoke from the cradle to, uh,
S5: sort of substantiate his prophetic office and to defend Mary's
S5: honor that he was, in fact, a gift of God,
S5: not the result of some, you know, sort of tawdry
S5: thing she had done. Um, and he heals the sick.
S5: He even raises the dead, um, and does all these things.
S5: So they often Revere Jesus as this prophet. But one
S5: of the reasons they also Revere him is that he's
S5: a prophet who, according to Islam, prophesied the coming of
S5: Muhammad eventually that he would be the final prophet. So
S5: for all of those reasons, a muslim would say they
S5: love Jesus.
S1: Wow. Okay. So many things to ask in that. So
S1: you taught me something. They believe that Jesus performed miracles.
S1: Teach me. Does the Quran ever say that Muhammad performed miracles?
S5: So explicitly? No, there's there's nothing. There's a whole strand
S5: of Muslim theology where they say that the only miracle
S5: that actually vouchsafed or in some way confirmed Muhammad's prophetic
S5: office was the Quran itself. Muslims will claim that Muhammad
S5: was an illiterate man because of the Quran calls him
S5: the unlettered one. Um. And that he therefore was illiterate,
S5: and that this masterpiece of Arabic grammar and poetry and
S5: content could not have been fashioned by an illiterate man.
S5: It had to be a miraculous This revelation to him.
S5: In fact, they don't even ascribe to Muhammad any authorship
S5: of the Quran. They'd say it's completely God that he
S5: was not inspired. Rather, he heard words and he simply
S5: said what he heard. So he is like this mouthpiece.
S5: But other than that, according to strict Islam, there are
S5: no miracles. Now, there are some folk areas of Islam
S5: where there are miracles, but strictly speaking, there are none
S5: attributed to Muhammad other than the Quran itself.
S3: Wow.
S1: I bet you just heard a boatload of things you
S1: never heard before. That's why I love spending time with Abdul.
S1: He's such a great teacher. We are going to continue
S1: to talk about what our Muslim friends think about Jesus.
S1: I think it's important for us to understand, and I
S1: think it also equips us when we're loving our Muslim neighbors.
S1: And we want to share the good news of the
S1: gospel of Jesus Christ with them. Again, I've got a
S1: link to embrace the truth. So much excellent resource material
S1: there and a podcast dealing specifically with this. I've got
S1: a link in my info page as well. Much more
S1: with Abdul Murray right after this. Have you ever wondered
S1: why music moves us so deeply? Or why beauty takes
S1: our breath away? My Truth Tool this month is a
S1: thought provoking book that explores those moments of wonder we
S1: all encounter. It's called Have You ever Wondered? Consider how
S1: ordinary aspects of life point to the extraordinary biblical truths.
S1: Ask for your copy of. Have you ever wondered when
S1: you give a gift of any amount to in the market,
S1: call eight 7758. That's eight 7758 or go to in
S1: the market with Janet Parshall. Abdul Murray is with us
S1: for the entire hour. We always look forward to our
S1: regular conversations with him. He is president of Embrace the
S1: Truth Ministry. And among the panoply of things he does
S1: through his ministry, he's got a fabulous podcast. So he
S1: had an episode recently called Jesus in Islam Prophet, Messiah,
S1: but not God, question mark. And so we're doing a
S1: side by side comparison. I've already learned things in the
S1: first part of our conversation, and I bet you have
S1: as well. So let me pick up where we left off.
S1: So I find this interesting and and I wonder if
S1: in the Islamic world, if it's seen as a tension
S1: or it's just moving past it, because the singular role
S1: of Jesus is to point to Muhammad. So Jesus does
S1: miracles according to Quran, but Muhammad does not. But Muhammad
S1: has to be proclaimed by Jesus because Muhammad ends up
S1: being the last prophet. That's interesting because one would think,
S1: and I can't speak for anyone else, but from my perspective,
S1: I would think someone who could do miracles would already,
S1: in the hierarchy of all things supernatural would have my
S1: attention over someone who was not. Is that not a
S1: tension in the Islamic world?
S5: Well, it can be definitely. In fact, one of the
S5: reasons why miracles are outside of the Quran, actually attributed
S5: to Muhammad is because of the tension you just mentioned. So,
S5: as I was saying before, the Quran doesn't actually specifically
S5: say Muhammad performed some miracles. And in fact there are
S5: several places where it says he didn't. Uh, example is, um, uh,
S5: where there is a, um, I'm looking it up real quick.
S5: There is a, a section, there's a couple of verses
S5: where the Quran says, for example, in um, the 13th chapter,
S5: seventh verse, uh, the unbelievers were saying, if only some
S5: sign were sent down upon Muhammad from his Lord. Um,
S5: in other words, if only there was something that we
S5: could know was proven. But it says, no, he's only
S5: a Warner. He only warns people, um, like to come
S5: back to true monotheism. Um, and there are various, uh,
S5: commentators who made a point that there is no there
S5: is no miracle story in the Quran except for these
S5: vague references. For example, in the 17th chapter, verse one, um,
S5: there is this reference to what's called mirage, which is
S5: basically a night journey where um, according to Muslim tradition, Schedule. Uh,
S5: Muhammad was taken from Mecca. The mosque in Mecca all
S5: the way to Jerusalem, where the dome of the Rock
S5: is at. Which is why it's a holy site for Muslims.
S5: And he was taken there in a single night by
S5: a winged horse named Buraq, which means blessing. And the
S5: only reference you find in the Quran is in chapter 17,
S5: where it says, uh, glory to God who took his
S5: servant doesn't even mention Muhammad by name, but his servant
S5: for a journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to
S5: the farthest mosque whose precincts we blessed in order that
S5: we might show him some of our signs or some
S5: of our miracles. Well, there's no detail there, and there's
S5: no eyewitnesses to it. There's also a reference, uh, from
S5: chapter 54 of the Quran, where, uh, it is said
S5: that the moon was split, and Muslims will often say
S5: that there is a, a hadith or a tradition about
S5: Muhammad where someone said, show me a sign. And he
S5: took his finger in the sky and he traced out
S5: the moon, and he split the moon with his finger.
S5: Now that is not considered necessarily a a strong, uh,
S5: claim or evidence, but because of the tension, you just
S5: mentioned a lot of these. Um, a lot of these
S5: miracles have to be ascribed to Muhammad, because the most
S5: recent prophet before him was Jesus, and he did a
S5: bunch of miracles. He was born of a virgin and
S5: in fact was an even greater tension is that the
S5: Quran refers to Jesus as sinless, but it doesn't refer
S5: to Muhammad that way or anybody else, frankly, as that way.
S5: In fact, Muhammad has to actually ask in a sort
S5: of implied way, for forgiveness at the end of his life.
S1: Wow. The tension just keeps growing. So. And again, thank
S1: you for that superb explanation about that. Because if again
S1: hierarchical just I'm trying to use common sense here. Jesus
S1: does miracles, Muhammad does not. Muhammad never claims that he's sinless.
S1: Jesus is. And yet you decide, if I can put
S1: it this way, to go to a lesser God, that's
S1: I find that interesting to me. So what is the
S1: attractiveness if the things that Jesus can do, um, are
S1: not identified or affirmed in Quranic writing. Why would one
S1: then subscribe to Muhammad as opposed to Jesus?
S5: Well, I think there's a couple of there's one is
S5: just a sort of a sociological reason. Yes. And one
S5: of those sociological reasons is, is that Muhammad has a
S5: tremendous amount of influence militarily and politically. And he was
S5: an incredibly charismatic figure in Arabia. So you have this
S5: growing movement of Muhammad amongst the pagan Arabs of the
S5: time who worshipped multiple gods. And Muhammad said, stop doing that. Um,
S5: he had a political affinity, uh, or even a theological
S5: affinity to a degree with Christians and Jews in the
S5: beginning of his prophetic career, as it were. Um, by saying,
S5: Christians and Jews, we all believe in the same God.
S5: And I affirm your prophets and all these things. And
S5: so some were converting to Islam, uh, by by choice,
S5: not necessarily by force. Uh, it was when they began
S5: to resist him, um, because he was claiming an office
S5: that was at least as good, if not higher than
S5: Jesus that he, the Quran, starts to turn on them
S5: and Muhammad starts to turn on them and say that
S5: Christians and Jews are amongst the worst of creatures. It's
S5: actually in the Bible. Sorry, in the Quran. So you
S5: have this political charismatic thing, but then later on, I
S5: think what happens is, is you have this sociological development,
S5: and I've thought about this a lot, and I don't
S5: have necessarily a historical. According to Hoyle, this is how
S5: this happened kind of a thing. But I suspect it,
S5: based on my interactions and my history, is that Muhammad
S5: is for the Middle Easterners and for the Arabs especially,
S5: specifically the Arabs. He's theirs. He's their guy like he is.
S5: He legitimizes the the people of the Arabian people. Uh,
S5: in light of the the Jews and the Romans of
S5: the time especially, they were, you know, had offices, they
S5: had prophetic offices, they had political offices. And along comes
S5: an Arabian who says, hey, I'm from the same line,
S5: the line of Ishmael, from Abraham, from an Abrahamic faith.
S5: And so in this effort to legitimize Muhammad and to
S5: have this affinity for him, there has to be a
S5: loyalty and a fealty to him that is beyond actual rationality,
S5: because even Muslims will tell you. The Quran specifically says
S5: we make no distinction amongst the prophets. There is no distinction.
S5: They all have equal office. Muhammad happens to be the
S5: last one who delivered the perfect book. But he's not
S5: greater in the sense that he himself is ontologically greater.
S5: Yet Muslims will take great offence if someone makes fun
S5: of Muhammad but not Jesus. They're fine with Jesus being
S5: made fun of, but not Muhammad. And it's partly because
S5: there is this loyalty and fealty to Muhammad based on
S5: ethnicity and sociology.
S1: Well, that's fascinating because Jesus is in the Quran, okay?
S1: This isn't a superimposition. He's in there already. And so
S1: there is a kind of, um, interesting, uh, waltz that
S1: has to be played around this when we come back. Abdul,
S1: I was just thinking when you were talking. I bet
S1: there are a whole lot of people who could say. Well,
S1: I well, I didn't even know if what? Muhammad was real.
S1: Tell me a little bit about his biography that he
S1: is a historian, historically substantiated person that was in history.
S1: Tell me something about his background. Abdul Murray is with us.
S1: The purpose of all of this is to get fire
S1: in your bones so you can share Jesus with your
S1: Muslim friends back after this. We're visiting with Abdul Murray,
S1: president of Embrace the Truth Ministry. Prolific author, by the way.
S1: Let me run some titles past you again. Saving truth,
S1: Grand Central question, uh, apocalypse later, and his most recent book,
S1: More Than a White Man's Religion. And he's got a
S1: great podcast as well. All of that can be found
S1: at Embrace the Truth. And I've got a link to
S1: the ministry. Not hard to forget. Embrace the truth. I
S1: guess I meant not hard to remember. Embrace the truth.org.
S1: So we're doing a side by side comparison about exactly
S1: what our Muslim friends think about Jesus. And so I
S1: was thinking, I don't doubt for one second the historicity
S1: of Jesus Christ, the extra-biblical affirmation of his existence, and
S1: all of the times we've talked over the years, Abdul,
S1: about how he can be historically substantiated even outside the
S1: parameters of Scripture. Can the same thing be said of Mohammed?
S1: And if the answer is yes, what can you tell
S1: us about him?
S5: Well, um, well, the surprisingly little, actually, that specifically mentions
S5: Muhammad outside of Islam's own sources. So, for example, you'd
S5: expect to see a lot more from Romans and from Persians, uh,
S5: with whom he interacted, um, uh, and other other peoples, um,
S5: various religious groups or um, even political groups with whom
S5: he interacted. There's very little outside of the Islamic sources,
S5: not something I would think that's nothing like the the
S5: riches we find in terms of the not only Jesus himself,
S5: but the early Christian church. Well, you do have some
S5: you do have some references that are either, uh, indirectly
S5: related to, say, say, talk about Muhammad as a person
S5: like mentioned his name. But there's a lot of reference to,
S5: you know, a leader of the Muslims and that kind
S5: of thing. So you do see some of that. Um,
S5: largely what we have in terms of the understanding of
S5: the history and the life of Muhammad comes from the
S5: hadith literature and what's called the Sunnah. The Sunnah is
S5: like the the biography of Muhammad, largely compiled from the hadith.
S5: Hadith comes from an Arabic word which means to discuss.
S5: It also means something that happens like a an event.
S5: And so the hadith are a collection and there's like
S5: six authoritative collections, um, of various hadith, which are traditions
S5: about Muhammad. So what you'd get is a statement that is, um,
S5: brought about by a chain. So you'd have like thus
S5: and such a person heard thus, and such a person
S5: say that one of Muhammad's closest friends said that Muhammad said,
S5: so you'd have that kind of that kind of a chain. Um,
S5: and some of them are direct, like, um, this guy said,
S5: I heard Muhammad say, um, and so you'd have a
S5: lot of the history of Muhammad from that collection, and
S5: there are various versions that are spurious. There are things
S5: that like likely didn't happen, uh, but they're still compiled.
S5: There's other things that likely did happen, but we have
S5: this from this oral tradition, and what we don't have
S5: is anything written down about Muhammad's life in any real
S5: sense from these hadith traditions until about 100 to 150
S5: years after Muhammad's death. Now, that doesn't mean that they
S5: didn't exist. It just meant they existed in an oral
S5: form and they weren't written down in any authoritative way.
S5: And so there was compilations that had to be collected
S5: about Muhammad's life. Um, but traditionally, and I think we can,
S5: with some confidence, actually say Muhammad was a real person.
S5: He really did, in fact, exist. He was the he
S5: was the founder of Islam. And he, um, was a
S5: at least a political leader who had theological heft to
S5: the things he was saying that gave him a religious
S5: movement that became a political movement mixed with religion as well.
S5: So I think we can say that, um, so I
S5: think we can say that with, relative relative certainty. I
S5: don't think the same certainty exists with that claim, as
S5: does with other historical figures, uh, including and especially Jesus
S5: and the early church, which is ironic because Muhammad was
S5: born in 570 A.D. so you talk about 500 years
S5: after Jesus's life, and yet we have less evidence, um,
S5: outside of Islam, for Muhammad than we have for Jesus,
S5: who was 600 years before him, uh, or 500 years
S5: before him. So that's just interesting all by itself.
S1: So much again. And I bet everybody is just as
S1: being impacted as much as I am about information they
S1: really didn't know before. So it raises a couple of questions.
S1: And I ask you this because this is not academic
S1: for you. You were on a nine year journey and
S1: there were things that you plowed through, including the historicity
S1: of the scriptures. So I loved what you said before,
S1: that he and I'm not being disrespectful, but he's kind
S1: of like, he's our guy, all right? He's ours. He
S1: gets passed down generationally, you know, our fathers before us, etc.,
S1: going back multiple generations. And so questions like the. Well,
S1: there's very little that substantiates his existence outside of within
S1: the parameters of our own writing. In other words, there
S1: is no Josephus who can identify a Mohammed. So I
S1: find that interesting. But then again, maybe not such a problem,
S1: because I'm not sure for the Muslim who wants to
S1: affirm what they already believe, if that becomes a stumbling
S1: block in their investigation. I may have said that cryptically,
S1: but does that make sense?
S5: No it does. It does make a lot of sense, actually.
S5: And I want to say that there are there are
S5: some there's not a Josephus style. There's not a Suetonius
S5: or a Tacitus, you know, kind of enemies of the,
S5: of the Christian faith who reference reference Jesus and the
S5: movement that he started. Um, but there are some references, uh,
S5: like the doctrine of Jacobi, uh, you know, six hundreds, uh,
S5: in the common era, there's a couple of, um, references
S5: to Islam and Muslims and Muhammad in sort of veiled ways,
S5: but they're not nearly as strong. It does create a tension, though,
S5: when you begin to look at this stuff. Um, you
S5: think to yourself, if he was this influential, especially politically, um,
S5: and especially militarily, you'd expect to see a lot more
S5: information with Jesus. It's interesting because people often make the
S5: same claim with Jesus. Oh, we should see if he's
S5: this influential. We should see tons of information about him
S5: from non-Christian sources. Well, the first thing is we do,
S5: we have, we have we have plenty. But we wouldn't
S5: see the Romans outside of their historians writing documents about
S5: their conquests or their battles against Jesus because he had none.
S5: He didn't do it that way. But Muhammad did. You
S5: have battles and all these progressions, so you'd expect there
S5: to be at least something from his enemies that would
S5: either say we conquered him or he conquered us. And
S5: we have no, we have almost none of that.
S3: Wow.
S1: Absolutely fascinating. Okay, I still have a ton of questions.
S1: I'm hearing the music. So let me take a clean
S1: break here and we'll come back. Abdul Murray is with us.
S1: This is why we just love when he comes to visit.
S1: He really gets the pistons of our mind firing, doesn't he?
S1: And again, why are we doing this? It isn't just
S1: a matter of going yawn. It's comparative theology. No, it's
S1: much more than that. If you want to become all
S1: things to all people so that by all means, some
S1: might be saved, I want to know because when I'm
S1: sharing Jesus with someone that's a neighbor or a friend
S1: or a coworker who happens to be a subscriber to Islam,
S1: I want to know where they're coming from. Paul did
S1: when he was in Athens. Acts 17. So I want
S1: to know, and I'm learning a ton of stuff. I
S1: hope you are too back after this. What's the goal
S1: of in the market? I'll tell you in the market
S1: equips men and women to think critically and act biblically.
S1: Why do we do this? So that we can be
S1: confident when speaking the truth in a confused culture? Are
S1: you willing to stand with me? Become a partial partner
S1: today and enjoy exclusive benefits only my partners receive while
S1: making an impact for the Kingdom. Call 877 Janet, 58
S1: or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S1: Abdul Murray is the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry.
S1: He offers the credibility of the gospel message as a
S1: speaker and a writer through his ministry, does a fabulous job.
S1: He's authored several books, excuse me, including Saving Truth, Grand
S1: Central Question, Apocalypse Later, and his latest, More Than a
S1: White Man's Religion. He speaks all over the world. He
S1: contends for the faith. He does so beautifully and had
S1: embraced the truth. He also has a podcast, which he
S1: did recently on Jesus and Islam. Had to get that
S1: off air. And now we go back to what he
S1: was saying before. So I'm doing I found it interesting
S1: you said that Muhammad is deemed to be the founder
S1: of Islam, and yet there are all these prophets that
S1: precede him. Why is he deemed to be the founder then?
S5: Well, that's actually a great question, because oftentimes, and I
S5: want to make sure I qualify that statement. Um, Is
S5: Muhammad is deemed, you know, historically speaking, and even theologically
S5: to some degree to be the founder of Islam. Although
S5: Muslims would say that Islam actually began with Adam, that
S5: Adam and Eve were actually Muslims, in fact, the Quran
S5: actually describes them as that way is that when they
S5: eat of the fruit that they should not be eating,
S5: they are cast down from the garden and, uh, God's
S5: reward to them, not for their sin, but because they're
S5: human beings and his his not reward, but his gift
S5: to them, uh, instead of just casting them out of
S5: the garden, was to give them a way back, to
S5: come back into God's good graces, which was what's called
S5: the huda or the the guidance or the wisdom, um,
S5: which is taken to be the law or, uh, the, uh,
S5: sort of doctrinal statements and law that they're supposed to
S5: not only believe but also follow and that that is
S5: consistent throughout all of the prophets, from Adam to Noah
S5: to Abraham to Moses, um, down through David, John the Baptist,
S5: Jesus himself, and eventually Muhammad. So technically speaking, a muslim
S5: would say Muhammad is not the founder of Islam. God
S5: is the founder of Islam through the very first prophet, Adam. Now,
S5: having said that, um, what Muslims also believe is that
S5: the Quran is the divine revelation which eternally existed but
S5: came as the last revelation to fix all the corruption
S5: that had happened in the previous scriptures. And so Muhammad
S5: is the founder of Islam in the sense that he
S5: established a religion and was the most successful of the
S5: prophets because his, his, his revelation was never changed. Um,
S5: the Quran, according to Muslims has never been changed and
S5: the message has stayed the same. And he brought us
S5: back to the true and authentic monotheism of Adam all
S5: the way through to Jesus. Whereas Jesus and Noah and
S5: and Abraham and David, all of their revelations were eventually
S5: corrupted in some way. Uh, but Muhammad was not. And
S5: so that's sort of again, answers the first question, which
S5: is why Muhammad? And why is he so special? Well,
S5: that's one reason. And two, is he the founder? Yes,
S5: of the stable religion. But Adam technically is the very
S5: first believer in Islam.
S1: Wow. Absolutely fascinating. I meant to ask you this when
S1: we came back after the break and let me ask
S1: it now, your knowledge just flows out of you on this, Abdul.
S1: You can quote the hadith and you talk about the Quran.
S1: Is this because you studied this from a child growing up,
S1: or did you study this, uh, to go deep into
S1: it as you were on your nine year exploration that
S1: took you to the cross?
S5: Well, it's both. And then one more. Um, it's both because, um,
S5: I had been taught a lot of stuff as a kid, um,
S5: about Islam. And I actually took a lot of that
S5: stuff and went further with it because I had sort
S5: of a sense of religious devotion, uh, even as a
S5: child and well into teen years and that kind of stuff.
S5: It was when I was in college when I really
S5: began to, like, think, okay, do I believe this because
S5: it's true, or do I believe it because it's tradition
S5: and there's a whole story behind that. But then I
S5: began to look even more into it. And alongside Christianity
S5: and other, you know, uh, worldviews and systems, just to
S5: get a firmer grasp of what this really teaches. Um,
S5: and so during that journey, I began to take this
S5: deeper dive deeper look into the foundations of the thing
S5: that I had believed my whole life. I had a
S5: foundation already set, but a lot of this stuff was
S5: developed during that nine year journey. And then the. And
S5: is that after that nine year journey was complete and
S5: I gave my life to Christ. Um, I began to
S5: look even further because what I wanted to do was
S5: to make sure that one I had made the right decision.
S5: And two, I wanted to make sure that if I,
S5: if I if I extol this virtue of of Christianity
S5: and this credibility of Christianity, I believe you have to
S5: do it in comparison. Oftentimes, you know, as Guinness, the
S5: great Guinness said, comparison is the mother of clarity. And
S5: when you understand this stuff and you really dive into it,
S5: you begin to be able to give a better clarity
S5: because you're able to compare a different worldview. And I
S5: have a strong heart for Muslims. Given my background. I
S5: preach to everybody, but Muslims hold a special place in
S5: my heart because of my own background. So I wanted
S5: to learn more about them, and I think that's the
S5: most important, critical thing is, before you cast aspersions at
S5: someone else's worldview, make sure you know it. Now, do
S5: you have to know every single thing about it? Absolutely not.
S5: You don't. But I'm sort of one of those guys
S5: who I like the detail and I like to do this.
S5: And then the fourth thing I'll add on the journey
S5: is when you get involved in debates and dialogues on
S5: this stuff, in these debates and these kind of conversations,
S5: people bring up things you didn't necessarily know and you
S5: have to go and dive into it ahead of time
S5: or in reaction to it. And so a lot of
S5: what I know is because of that as well.
S1: Wow. So there's my observation. I could be dead wrong,
S1: but my subjective observation on this is that there is,
S1: within the parameters of Islam, a family element that I
S1: don't see fully replicated in Christianity. Maybe it's because in
S1: my travels to the Middle East, one of you talk
S1: about being dumb. That's why Mark Twain said, you know,
S1: travel is the best classroom. I did not realize that
S1: when you traveled in the Middle East, you have an
S1: ID card and there's an M after your name for Muslim,
S1: and it has to be changed if you become a Christian,
S1: and then that changes to a C, and that doesn't
S1: come without consequences. And so it is more than just
S1: making a proclamation of faith and understanding that you're going
S1: to follow Jesus. You've now made a public declaration through
S1: your official identification. Who's you are. But for Muslims, what
S1: I learned very quickly is it isn't about evangelizing. I'm
S1: going to use all of my Christianized term and superimpose
S1: it on Islam, but I think my friends will understand
S1: it if I use those terms. So there's no evangelizing,
S1: and very often what I see was or what I
S1: saw was it's generational impact. My great grandfather, my grandfather,
S1: and it just went down and there was no aha
S1: moment of conversion. I got saved when I was seven.
S1: It was I was immersed totally in an Islamic household.
S1: That's all we've ever known. That's all we'll ever be.
S1: That's who we are as a people, as a family. Now,
S1: is that an? Is that an obtuse observation or is
S1: there some truth in that?
S5: No, there's a lot of truth in it, actually. Um,
S5: there is, uh, a real sense in which, uh, you are, um,
S5: a born, a muslim. Muslims believe you are born a muslim,
S5: and it is the world that changes you into a
S5: Christian or a Jew or whatever it might be, or
S5: a Hindu or a Buddhist. You're born with an innate
S5: sense of monotheism and monotheism that is very Islamic. Unitarian monotheism. Um,
S5: and then that tradition is fostered because the East and
S5: the Middle East is categorized by an honor and shame culture,
S5: which has its benefits. You know, it's got its tremendous benefits.
S5: Its tremendous benefit is that you do that which brings honor,
S5: and you avoid that which brings shame, uh, to your
S5: community and to your family and to the country and
S5: then to the religion itself. Now, that's good in one sense,
S5: because what you do is you think of others before
S5: you think of yourself. It's not so individualistic that you
S5: don't think of the ramifications of your beliefs, your actions,
S5: and these kind of things on others. The shadow side
S5: and everything's got a shadow side this side of heaven,
S5: the shadow side is that you're willing to believe false things,
S5: even things that you might know are false, because believing
S5: otherwise would bring shame to your family. Yes. And so, yes,
S5: that is exactly. You're hitting the nail right on the head.
S5: One of the reasons why it's so difficult to break
S5: in to the Muslim heart and the Muslim mind with
S5: the good news, and it is great news, is that
S5: they see the bad news. And the bad news is,
S5: if I accept this, I could lose everything. I could
S5: lose my sense of community, my sense of identity. I
S5: could lose family. I could even possibly lose my life.
S5: And so oftentimes we say John 316 and it sounds
S5: so fantastic, but they're thinking all the negative consequences. So yeah,
S5: that's you've hit it, you've nailed it. And that's exactly
S5: what happens. It's not obtuse. It's actually concrete. And by
S5: the way, that's not just a middle eastern regional thing
S5: for all the Muslims that are here in the United
S5: States and across the world, whether it's in the Western
S5: world or in the Muslim world. Um, that's a that's
S5: a truism. That's a true thing for everybody. Um, yeah.
S5: I'll tell you a quick story. Very short. I was
S5: witnessing to a muslim guy, and he was acknowledging every
S5: single thing I was saying is true in his own journey.
S5: And tears were flowing from his eyes, and he looked
S5: down at his shoes as if the answers to all
S5: the world's questions, wherever was written on his shoes, he
S5: would not look up. And he said under his breath,
S5: my father has never told me he's proud of me,
S5: and that he loves me. And if I become if
S5: I become a Christian, he never will. And that was
S5: his chief barrier. So yes, it's a huge part.
S1: Wow. That breaks my heart. I get tears in my
S1: eyes when I think about that. I'm thinking also, if
S1: anybody is as old as I am, let me give
S1: you a cultural reference that really underscores what Abdul was saying.
S1: So I remember George W Bush giving a press conference,
S1: and it was the middle of the conflict of the
S1: Middle East, and the reporter took his shoe and threw
S1: it at President Bush. And most people in America wouldn't
S1: have understood that. That goes exactly to what Abdul was
S1: talking about. The throwing the shoe is very often that
S1: symbol of shame being transmitted to another person. And I
S1: don't think in the Western mind we understood the significance
S1: of that. I remember the president kind of made some
S1: offhand comment like, you miss me or something like that
S1: after it happened, but it was really he was angry
S1: at what was happening in that part of the world,
S1: and he was shaming the president by throwing his shoe
S1: at him. Um, so I want to underscore that the
S1: other thing, too, and it takes me back to you personally, Abdul.
S1: And I bet my music's going to play. But let
S1: me start the question anyway. So you do this wonderful
S1: deep dive for nine years, all the stones that you
S1: overturned that I talked about earlier, but the one stone
S1: that had to be the heaviest of all is who
S1: am I going to be in this family if I
S1: accept Jesus as my Savior? I'm one of them, but
S1: I won't be one of them. I, as a son,
S1: do not ever want to bring shame and dishonor to
S1: my family. Why am I having to make this Hobson's
S1: choice between following Jesus and remaining a beloved son in
S1: my own family. Now the music's playing, so let me
S1: get your reaction to that. And maybe this is a blessing.
S1: Think about that. Because how often in the United States,
S1: when you decide to say, yes, he's Lord, I want
S1: him as Savior in my life? How often do we
S1: think and it will happen? In some cases, I grant you.
S1: But does it happen to the same extent as it does,
S1: for example, in the Islamic and quite honestly, in the
S1: Jewish world as well? They'll hold funerals for Jews who
S1: come to faith in Jesus Christ sometime because you're dead
S1: to me, because you came to Christ. So this is
S1: something to think about when you're sharing that good news
S1: that there's a price to be paid sometimes, and we
S1: should always remember that back after this. Embrace the truth.
S1: That's the website for Abdul Murray's ministry. Embrace the truth.
S1: Embrace the truth. And it's one of those deliciously rich
S1: sites with tons of information, links to books and articles
S1: that was written and podcasts that he does. So check
S1: it out, please. I want you to know and love
S1: this ministry. And germane to our conversation this hour is
S1: I've got a direct link to a recent podcast he
S1: did called Jesus in Islam Prophet, Messiah Dot dot dot,
S1: but not God. Question mark. And there's so much more.
S1: By the way, it's actually a two part. But I
S1: want you to start this, and then you're going to
S1: be hungry enough to want to get the second part.
S1: But I wanted to go on a very personal level
S1: about the idea, and I thank you for explaining this
S1: idea that there is this generational impact, this deep bonds
S1: of familial connection, that you're born a muslim. And so you, Abdu,
S1: this beautifully eloquent man for the gospel and yet passionate
S1: about your family and a very observant Muslim that concluded
S1: after not one minute, but nine years of investigation and
S1: part of those deep night of the soul moments had
S1: to be, God, what are you going to do with
S1: me and my family? How did you resolve that?
S5: Well, that's why I took nine years. I've often put
S5: it this way, and I think this is this encapsulates it.
S5: And I want to sort of start the response by
S5: this is that it took me nine years to, to
S5: to come to faith in Christ, not because the evidence
S5: was hard to find. I found all the evidence I
S5: needed sufficient to make a commitment to Christ. I didn't
S5: find all the answers. I still don't have all the answers. Um,
S5: but I found but I sufficiently found, I found sufficient
S5: answers to give my life to Jesus within about two
S5: years of that search. Um, but it took seven more
S5: years to wrestle with that evidence and reshape it and
S5: rethink it and mull it over a little bit more
S5: to shine it, to buff it, to scratch it sometimes
S5: all that stuff, because it didn't take me. It was
S5: it wasn't an easy and easy decision because there was
S5: an identity issue. Who was I? Who was I going
S5: to be within myself? I liked being a muslim. Um,
S5: who was is it going to be to my family,
S5: in my community? Who was I going to be? And
S5: so how I put it is this. The answers were
S5: not hard to find, but they were hard to embrace. Um,
S5: and that's why the ministry is called that, by the way.
S5: That's why we're called Embrace the Truth. Because the answer
S5: was hard to. The answers were not hard to find,
S5: but they are hard to embrace. And so part of
S5: our approach is to do what Blaise Pascal said is
S5: to make good people wish it were true, and then
S5: show them that it is. You show them the beauty
S5: of it. And so it took me this long, because
S5: I had to be so compelled that I was willing
S5: to risk so much. For me, it just this has
S5: to be true. If this is even remotely close to,
S5: to to a reasonable doubt about its truth, then I
S5: need to not do this. Because for me, the earthly
S5: and the sort of corporeal consequences were too great. Um,
S5: that doesn't mean that they really are. It just meant
S5: that in my mind, they were. So that's why it
S5: took me that long. But I began to wrestle with something.
S5: And C.S. Lewis, I'll bookend it with this. C.S. Lewis
S5: says two statements that I think are brilliant. Um, himself.
S5: He calls himself the most reluctant convert.
S1: Yes.
S5: He says he said he said if you look for truth,
S5: you'll find comfort. And then he says, but if you
S5: look for comfort, you will find only soft soap to
S5: begin with. But in the end, despair. Um. And I
S5: realized if I see comfort, I'll be okay for a while.
S5: But ultimately, I'll be in this despair because my intellectual integrity,
S5: I think the spiritual tug will, uh, as well, will
S5: ultimately be at odds with, uh, dare I say, my
S5: own cowardice over the consequences of what would happen to me.
S5: And I knew that would be a despair. And when
S5: I finally gave my life to Christ, after seeing that
S5: all the things I was hoping was true in my
S5: former worldview were actually true in the gospel message. Um,
S5: I realized something else, C.S. Lewis said. And it was
S5: to me, it was just such a a beautiful thing
S5: for him to say is, he said that the great
S5: thing to remember is that though our feelings come and go.
S5: His love for us does not. It is not wearied
S5: by our sins or our indifference, and therefore it is
S5: quite relentless in its pursuit that its determination that we
S5: shall be cured of those sins at whatever cost to us,
S5: at whatever cost to him. So I realized something that
S5: other worldviews, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, you know, any other ism
S5: and schism you can think of, they ask you to
S5: make a change, but at your expense and your expense alone.
S5: The Christian message is that God causes the change at
S5: his expense, and therefore, what cost could I possibly pay
S5: that would that would, that would even compare to the
S5: cost he paid for me? How could I possibly say
S5: no to him? How could I possibly look at that
S5: cross and say, not good enough? I might get yelled at.
S5: I mean, how could I possibly do that? And so
S5: that's that's a big part of it, is that at
S5: some point I had to be willing to give that up.
S5: And that's why Jesus says so beautifully in several places
S5: and in various ways that you have to die to yourself.
S5: He who loses his life for my sake will find it. Um,
S5: I can tell you, it's been 25 years, uh, since
S5: I became a believer. In fact, in June, 25 years
S5: since I became a believer. And in that quarter century
S5: when it's been the hardest to follow him, it's been
S5: the most worth it.
S1: Have you ever. And it's so contradictory to the statement
S1: that you just made because there is this tension, because
S1: not just your nuclear but your extended family as well.
S1: Did you ever think, oh, if only I hadn't, or
S1: for the eloquent reasons that you just articulated, how can
S1: you not supersedes the temporal?
S5: You know, I would be lying if I didn't say
S5: that there was some fleshly thing, or maybe even Satan
S5: saying something in my ear that says, just say this
S5: and it'll be fine. You know, it'll go easy for you. Um,
S5: I remember distinctly, in the middle of the throes of
S5: some pretty intense emotional upheaval and relational upheaval, which, by
S5: the way, has all been resolved. I mean, we're great now. Um, but, uh,
S5: in the beginning, I remember thinking the word Muslim means
S5: one who submits to God to his will. Couldn't you
S5: just say you are? And what you really mean is
S5: you submit to God's will in Christ and just leave
S5: it at that. And the answer was an emphatic no,
S5: because that would be lying. And how could I forsake
S5: truth when the truth forsook everything for me and I
S5: couldn't do it?
S3: Wow. Wow.
S1: And there's so much more in this podcast, Abdul. I
S1: feel like I've just barely scratched the surface. This is
S1: why I love our conversations that you can address the
S1: the mind issues, but it's the heart issues ultimately that
S1: take over. And I hope what it's created number one
S1: actually a couple of things. Number one, I hope it
S1: puts I've used the phrase before. Let me harken back
S1: to Jeremiah again. I hope these conversations put fire in
S1: your bones. Are you willfully volitionally asking the Lord for
S1: opportunities to share the good news? And if not, why not?
S1: How can you keep this good news to yourself? How
S1: could you not? How can they know unless somebody tells them?
S1: Acts writes Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. So I'm hoping
S1: that there's now more fire in your bones to go
S1: out and tell that you won't be reticent or embarrassed,
S1: but that you'll roll up your sleeves. You'll be prepared.
S1: You'll ask for a real anointing from the Holy Spirit
S1: before you talk to people. But then also, I hope
S1: this conversation broke your heart a little bit. He's not
S1: willing that any should perish, and our saying yes might
S1: not be the sort of angst another person has to
S1: go through before they say yes. For things like the
S1: generational connectedness, the definition of who you are within your family,
S1: there's a kind of Holy Spirit sensitivity that that requires.
S1: And one of the outcomes of these kinds of conversations,
S1: I hope, instills just that. Gosh, what a joy to
S1: call you my friend Abdul. What a great hour. Thank
S1: you friends. We'll see you next time on In the
S1: market with Janet Parshall.