1 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:10,360 S1: Good afternoon to you. I'm Ali Dawson, sitting in for 2 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:14,440 S1: Chris Fabry today at the Radio Backyard fence. We're going 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:19,600 S1: to have an honest, candid conversation about marriage. The good, 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,040 S1: the bad, the sometimes ugly. We've got Christian marriage coaches 5 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,520 S1: Mark and Jill Savage. Their passion for helping marriages is 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,360 S1: born out of a crisis they experienced in their own. 7 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,800 S1: They're honest about this the betrayal, the infidelity that threatened 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,120 S1: to implode, the life that they'd spent years building together. 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,960 S1: But instead, God brought them down a path of healing 10 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,280 S1: and restoration. There's going to be so much hope in 11 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,360 S1: this story. And they're going to share with you the 12 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,919 S1: lessons they've learned that every married couple needs to know. 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,320 S1: I hope you'll listen in. It's coming up today on 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,000 S1: Chris Fabry. Live from the heart for the heart to 15 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,320 S1: the heart. Our number. If you want to give us 16 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:04,480 S1: a call. If you have a question or a comment? (877) 548-3675. 17 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:10,360 S1: Mark that down. (877) 548-3675. I want to introduce the team 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,640 S1: who is so privileged to be making this show happen 19 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,840 S1: for you. We've got Ryan Engineering for us today. Lisa 20 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,520 S1: is sitting in the producer's seat. Trish is off today. 21 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,520 S1: And then Josh and Simon, those are the voices you 22 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,840 S1: will hear if you call in today. They will be 23 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,520 S1: answering phones. Want to get right to our guests so 24 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:28,520 S1: that we have time to hopefully take a couple of 25 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:33,480 S1: your questions and really unpack their story. Mark and Jill Savage, the, 26 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,680 S1: the thing that I find the most honest and even 27 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,200 S1: a little, um, funny that you share that you have 28 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:48,280 S1: been married for 43 years, 33 of them happily, which is. Yeah. Yep. 29 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:50,880 S2: It's true, it's true. 30 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,080 S1: They are the parents of five adult children, seven grandchildren. 31 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,670 S1: They make their home in normal, Illinois, which fun fact 32 00:01:58,670 --> 00:02:02,310 S1: is about 45 minutes away from where I grew up. 33 00:02:02,590 --> 00:02:05,990 S1: I grew up in central Illinois, so I know normal 34 00:02:06,270 --> 00:02:10,070 S1: very well. I've been there mostly for high school volleyball 35 00:02:10,070 --> 00:02:12,350 S1: games back in the day. Hopping on the bus. Driving 36 00:02:12,350 --> 00:02:16,150 S1: 45 minutes to the Bloomington-Normal area to usually get beat 37 00:02:16,150 --> 00:02:19,990 S1: by those powerful powerhouse volleyball teams that you guys have there. 38 00:02:20,430 --> 00:02:22,589 S1: It's so great to have you on Chris Fabry. Live 39 00:02:22,590 --> 00:02:25,630 S1: with us today. Mark, I want to start with hearing 40 00:02:25,630 --> 00:02:27,630 S1: a little bit of your love story. Now, if I 41 00:02:27,669 --> 00:02:30,670 S1: know any married couple, there's always like two versions of 42 00:02:30,710 --> 00:02:32,510 S1: kind of the how we met and how we fell 43 00:02:32,510 --> 00:02:34,830 S1: in love story, at least for me and my husband. 44 00:02:34,830 --> 00:02:37,709 S1: He tells a totally different version than I tell, emphasizing 45 00:02:37,710 --> 00:02:40,750 S1: details that I don't find important. But he does. So 46 00:02:40,790 --> 00:02:43,630 S1: mark your version of how you met and fell in 47 00:02:43,630 --> 00:02:45,630 S1: love with this lovely gal, Jill. 48 00:02:46,310 --> 00:02:51,669 S3: Well, Jill and I met, uh, as on a blind date, uh, 49 00:02:52,030 --> 00:02:56,270 S3: a couple that knew both of us talked us into 50 00:02:56,310 --> 00:03:00,470 S3: meeting each other. And Jill saw me fell in love. 51 00:03:00,510 --> 00:03:03,710 S3: And the rest is history. 52 00:03:05,310 --> 00:03:06,350 S2: All right. Jill. 53 00:03:06,870 --> 00:03:10,950 S3: Jill's laughing, so, I don't know, maybe I told my 54 00:03:10,950 --> 00:03:12,070 S3: story right then. 55 00:03:12,430 --> 00:03:13,470 S2: Jill. You want to throw. 56 00:03:13,470 --> 00:03:14,790 S1: In any details? 57 00:03:14,830 --> 00:03:19,310 S2: Addendums, corrections? Yeah. No, it was it was kind of 58 00:03:19,350 --> 00:03:21,590 S2: funny because we did we met on a blind date 59 00:03:21,590 --> 00:03:24,630 S2: and we were actually meeting at his house. He had 60 00:03:24,630 --> 00:03:27,110 S2: a mobile home that he lived in. And, and so 61 00:03:27,150 --> 00:03:29,989 S2: my friends and I were meeting him. He was kind 62 00:03:29,990 --> 00:03:33,630 S2: of running late and he kept sitting in his car 63 00:03:33,990 --> 00:03:38,310 S2: and not getting out. And I thought, what is going on? 64 00:03:38,350 --> 00:03:41,830 S3: I was trying to scope her out to see, okay, 65 00:03:41,870 --> 00:03:43,990 S3: do I go up and meet her or do I 66 00:03:43,990 --> 00:03:47,510 S3: drive up? And then I was like, Mark, this is 67 00:03:47,510 --> 00:03:50,430 S3: not a good idea. This is your house, man. Get 68 00:03:50,430 --> 00:03:51,270 S3: out of the car. 69 00:03:51,670 --> 00:03:53,990 S4: So meet this girl I did. 70 00:03:54,470 --> 00:03:58,300 S2: Yep, yep. So no, we, we did, we met and, uh, 71 00:03:58,540 --> 00:04:02,020 S2: we did, we made a connection. Yeah. Um, I had 72 00:04:02,020 --> 00:04:04,340 S2: been a, I had grown up in a Christian home. 73 00:04:04,620 --> 00:04:06,860 S2: Mark was a new believer. 74 00:04:06,900 --> 00:04:13,140 S3: I was a new believer. Uh, less than a year. Yeah. And, uh. 75 00:04:13,140 --> 00:04:15,700 S2: He actually accepted Christ at a Billy Graham crusade. 76 00:04:15,740 --> 00:04:16,539 S3: Wow. Right. 77 00:04:16,740 --> 00:04:20,460 S2: Yeah. And so, uh, one of his first things he 78 00:04:20,460 --> 00:04:22,940 S2: said to me at the end of the night is I'm. 79 00:04:23,060 --> 00:04:28,540 S2: I'm a new Christian. And, uh, it's important to me that, 80 00:04:28,820 --> 00:04:31,940 S2: you know, somebody that I date is a believer. 81 00:04:31,980 --> 00:04:36,140 S3: And, uh, I didn't even know what I was looking for, 82 00:04:36,140 --> 00:04:40,220 S3: but I knew that I needed to stay true to 83 00:04:40,260 --> 00:04:43,060 S3: this commitment that I had just made to Christ. And 84 00:04:43,060 --> 00:04:47,860 S3: so I did. I said, Billy, I am a new believer. Uh, 85 00:04:47,860 --> 00:04:49,980 S3: I don't know if you believe in Christ or not, 86 00:04:49,980 --> 00:04:53,220 S3: but if you don't, I'm really not interested. If you do, 87 00:04:53,260 --> 00:04:55,860 S3: I'd love to see you again. Oh, yeah. And. 88 00:04:56,140 --> 00:04:59,060 S1: Jill, you must have lit up. Because if, as a 89 00:04:59,339 --> 00:05:01,700 S1: follower of Christ, I mean. And as a woman, you 90 00:05:01,740 --> 00:05:04,620 S1: hear a man say that. And I mean, that's major 91 00:05:04,620 --> 00:05:05,940 S1: points if they're being truthful. 92 00:05:05,980 --> 00:05:12,100 S2: Right, right. Yeah. I mean, I was like, absolutely. And so, um, 93 00:05:12,140 --> 00:05:15,820 S2: I was, uh, very happy to, to see him again. 94 00:05:15,820 --> 00:05:18,860 S2: And so we did, uh, we actually, uh, let's see, 95 00:05:18,900 --> 00:05:22,260 S2: we met mid-August. We were engaged by Thanksgiving and we 96 00:05:22,260 --> 00:05:23,860 S2: were married by the following June. 97 00:05:24,100 --> 00:05:24,540 S4: Okay. 98 00:05:24,580 --> 00:05:27,780 S2: So we were married before we'd known each other. I mean, 99 00:05:27,820 --> 00:05:29,740 S2: we known each other about ten months by the time 100 00:05:29,740 --> 00:05:33,300 S2: we got married. And not that we would actually recommend 101 00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:39,820 S2: that because in reality, we grew up a lot together. Um, but, uh, 102 00:05:40,020 --> 00:05:42,900 S2: but yeah, that was our story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 103 00:05:42,940 --> 00:05:45,260 S3: No. And I, I had a lot of growing up to, 104 00:05:45,300 --> 00:05:47,140 S3: I had a lot of growing up to do. I 105 00:05:47,140 --> 00:05:51,620 S3: didn't realize that, but, uh, I came packing a lot 106 00:05:51,620 --> 00:05:52,540 S3: of baggage. 107 00:05:52,900 --> 00:05:53,339 S2: Mhm. 108 00:05:53,380 --> 00:05:56,460 S1: Well, what do you mean? What was the what? What 109 00:05:56,460 --> 00:05:59,860 S1: was primarily the baggage you feel like you brought into marriage, Mark? 110 00:06:00,820 --> 00:06:06,500 S3: Uh, well, we'll say that Jill brought seven suitcases. I 111 00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:09,060 S3: brought seven semis. Mhm. Um. 112 00:06:09,339 --> 00:06:12,420 S2: And most of that was from your home of origin. 113 00:06:12,460 --> 00:06:16,020 S3: From my childhood. And I grew up in a a 114 00:06:16,140 --> 00:06:24,260 S3: broken family, uh, very dysfunctional. And, uh, so I brought 115 00:06:24,260 --> 00:06:30,539 S3: a lot of selfishness, a lot of, of not understanding 116 00:06:30,540 --> 00:06:33,580 S3: how to be a healthy man, how to be a 117 00:06:33,580 --> 00:06:35,460 S3: healthy husband or father. 118 00:06:35,860 --> 00:06:40,100 S2: Yeah. A lot of shame, too. Um, where feeling like 119 00:06:40,140 --> 00:06:44,020 S2: you're not good enough. Right. Um, and that played out 120 00:06:44,020 --> 00:06:45,940 S2: in a lot of different ways as well. 121 00:06:45,980 --> 00:06:50,860 S3: So it was kind of interesting. In childhood, I fantasized 122 00:06:50,860 --> 00:06:55,609 S3: about when I get my own family, and I had 123 00:06:55,610 --> 00:07:02,690 S3: this unrealistic expectation, huge expectation of the healthiness that my 124 00:07:02,690 --> 00:07:06,770 S3: family would have. The difficulty was I had no idea 125 00:07:06,770 --> 00:07:10,370 S3: what healthy meant. I didn't know how to get there. 126 00:07:10,770 --> 00:07:15,570 S3: And so I came in, just fired up at how 127 00:07:15,570 --> 00:07:17,610 S3: good Jill and I are going to be together. And 128 00:07:17,610 --> 00:07:19,290 S3: then we had our first conflict. 129 00:07:19,490 --> 00:07:20,210 S2: On our honeymoon. 130 00:07:20,250 --> 00:07:22,090 S3: On our honeymoon. Yeah. I was like. 131 00:07:23,170 --> 00:07:27,050 S4: This is off to a great start. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jill. 132 00:07:27,050 --> 00:07:29,810 S1: What was the, what baggage would you say you brought in? 133 00:07:29,850 --> 00:07:32,370 S1: As you mentioned, you were raised in a Christian home. 134 00:07:32,850 --> 00:07:36,690 S1: Maybe there wasn't the obvious dysfunction, but certainly there you 135 00:07:36,730 --> 00:07:38,370 S1: had your seven bags, right? 136 00:07:38,690 --> 00:07:42,250 S2: Right, right. And so I think we all carry baggage. 137 00:07:42,290 --> 00:07:45,530 S2: You know, we all have dynamics that play out in 138 00:07:45,530 --> 00:07:50,850 S2: our formative years. Um, and, uh, for me, probably one 139 00:07:50,850 --> 00:07:54,010 S2: of the biggest ones was that the family I grew 140 00:07:54,010 --> 00:08:01,650 S2: up in was very loving, uh, very, uh, very, uh, 141 00:08:01,810 --> 00:08:05,050 S2: willing to, uh, you know, let you know that they 142 00:08:05,050 --> 00:08:07,690 S2: loved you. They were on the front row of anything 143 00:08:07,690 --> 00:08:12,450 S2: I did, you know? But, um, we didn't do emotions. Okay. Uh, 144 00:08:12,450 --> 00:08:16,210 S2: so we were kind of the buck up family. And 145 00:08:16,210 --> 00:08:19,450 S2: so if life got hard, you just bucked up. And 146 00:08:19,450 --> 00:08:24,450 S2: so I didn't come in with a lot of emotional 147 00:08:24,450 --> 00:08:28,090 S2: knowledge when, when you don't have a lot of emotional 148 00:08:28,090 --> 00:08:33,449 S2: knowledge or you're a little emotionally shut down, um, what 149 00:08:33,450 --> 00:08:36,730 S2: we will, what, you know, what happens is then you 150 00:08:36,809 --> 00:08:40,569 S2: kind of are a little low on compassion. Okay. Um, 151 00:08:40,610 --> 00:08:43,410 S2: and so those were the things that, that played out. 152 00:08:43,450 --> 00:08:46,410 S2: And so we like to also say that like from 153 00:08:46,410 --> 00:08:48,930 S2: the home that Mark grew up in, he, he came 154 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,040 S2: into marriage with emotional diarrhea. I came into marriage with 155 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,679 S2: emotional constipation. 156 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,359 S3: And we needed to figure out how to get regular. Yeah. 157 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:03,080 S4: So, you. 158 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,040 S1: Know, it's interesting. Would you have described yourself as opposites 159 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,600 S1: or did you feel like, wow, we've got perfect compatibility here? 160 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,400 S1: Like we're so much alike? 161 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,400 S2: Oh yeah. We definitely, at that point felt like that 162 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:21,000 S2: until we had to live together and, and just, uh, 163 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,200 S2: deal with some of these things day in, day out. Yeah. And, 164 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,079 S2: but no, because that's why opposites attract, right, Ali? 165 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:30,320 S1: Yeah. Oh, totally. 166 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,800 S2: I mean, it's like, oh, you know, that's why everybody's like, oh, 167 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:38,720 S2: you complete me. Um, until that completion, like, you know, 168 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,720 S2: starts to really irritate you and you're just like, so done. 169 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:43,319 S4: Yeah. 170 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,560 S1: How quickly did you, were you involved in ministry? I know, Mark, 171 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,000 S1: you were a pastor for some time. You were both 172 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,680 S1: you were active in ministry for a good portion of 173 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,160 S1: your marriage. How quickly did that come after the wedding? 174 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,840 S3: Uh, right away we were knee deep in church ministry. 175 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:07,680 S3: And then, um, probably five, 4 or 5 years. 176 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,040 S2: No, it wasn't even that long. Let's see. 3 to 7. 177 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:12,800 S2: So four years. Yeah, I guess you're right. 178 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,640 S3: We, uh, relocated to Illinois to, uh, so I could 179 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,520 S3: attend Bible college. And, uh, I would say that the 180 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:27,280 S3: challenges in our marriage became more obvious when we made 181 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:33,640 S3: the move to Illinois. So it's all Illinois's fault? No, no, 182 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:38,320 S3: I because I think, uh, it revealed itself because all 183 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:44,679 S3: of our, um, securities in family in we grew up 184 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,429 S3: in Indianapolis. everything we knew was there, and all of 185 00:10:48,429 --> 00:10:51,870 S3: a sudden we just had each other and God began 186 00:10:51,870 --> 00:10:55,190 S3: to reveal what needed to be worked on. 187 00:10:55,230 --> 00:10:56,030 S4: Mhm. Yeah. 188 00:10:56,070 --> 00:10:59,670 S1: Mark and Jill Savage are with us this hour. God 189 00:10:59,670 --> 00:11:02,550 S1: revealed what needed to be worked on. You know, the 190 00:11:02,550 --> 00:11:06,190 S1: savages says so. They say no marriage crumbles in a day. 191 00:11:06,790 --> 00:11:12,790 S1: There were some slow fades, subtle at first before crisis hit. 192 00:11:13,270 --> 00:11:15,830 S1: Coming up, we've got more with Mark and Jill Savage. 193 00:11:15,870 --> 00:11:19,750 S1: Our number here (877) 548-3675. 194 00:11:23,950 --> 00:11:26,470 S5: This is Chris Fabry Live and we will get right 195 00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:29,630 S5: back to the program. But first, a provocative question. What 196 00:11:29,630 --> 00:11:33,550 S5: if the church led the way in healing the racial divide? 197 00:11:33,710 --> 00:11:37,630 S5: Doctor John Perkins asked that question until his death in 198 00:11:37,630 --> 00:11:41,470 S5: March in his book One Blood. He shares his parting 199 00:11:41,470 --> 00:11:45,070 S5: words with you and me, a powerful call to multiethnic 200 00:11:45,190 --> 00:11:50,270 S5: reconciliation rooted in Scripture and his own lived experience. Request 201 00:11:50,270 --> 00:11:53,070 S5: your copy with the gift of any amount. Chris Fabry 202 00:11:53,110 --> 00:12:04,189 S5: live call 18669538669532279 or go to the website. Chris Fabry live.org. 203 00:12:04,590 --> 00:12:08,750 S5: Chris Fabry live.org. And thanks for your support of the 204 00:12:08,750 --> 00:12:10,310 S5: Radio Backyard Fence. 205 00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:19,430 S1: Well, no marriage is perfect, right? You look at your spouse. 206 00:12:19,630 --> 00:12:22,990 S1: They've got their flaws. And boy, oh boy, you've got 207 00:12:22,990 --> 00:12:25,870 S1: your own. And you'll realize that if you take even 208 00:12:25,870 --> 00:12:29,430 S1: a small glance in the mirror. But when did those little, 209 00:12:29,630 --> 00:12:36,510 S1: little quirks, little disagreements become something more difficult to resolve? 210 00:12:36,790 --> 00:12:39,190 S1: We've got Mark and Jill Savage with us today. They're 211 00:12:39,230 --> 00:12:43,750 S1: the authors of No More Perfect Marriages. When did you 212 00:12:43,830 --> 00:12:49,950 S1: realize we're in trouble here? This the. Somewhere after I do. 213 00:12:50,350 --> 00:12:53,790 S1: Things started to go a little sideways. Did you. Was 214 00:12:53,790 --> 00:12:56,950 S1: there a moment where you realized like, okay, we're we're 215 00:12:57,030 --> 00:12:59,670 S1: we're starting to be on thin ice here? Or did 216 00:12:59,670 --> 00:13:02,310 S1: you just kind of keep going day by day recognizing, 217 00:13:02,350 --> 00:13:04,949 S1: you know, maybe things aren't great, but we're making this 218 00:13:04,950 --> 00:13:05,630 S1: thing work. 219 00:13:06,590 --> 00:13:08,750 S2: You know, we, we, I would say we kept going 220 00:13:08,790 --> 00:13:11,990 S2: for a really long time. And I don't even know 221 00:13:11,990 --> 00:13:15,069 S2: when was the first time we saw a marriage counselor. 222 00:13:15,070 --> 00:13:18,950 S2: I would bet we were ten years in. Okay, 12 223 00:13:18,990 --> 00:13:23,110 S2: years in. And we realized, I think that we need some. 224 00:13:23,470 --> 00:13:25,790 S2: You know, I think we need some help. And thankfully, 225 00:13:25,790 --> 00:13:28,030 S2: both of us were willing to go. You know, sometimes 226 00:13:28,030 --> 00:13:31,270 S2: that's not the case. Right. And, and when that happens, 227 00:13:31,270 --> 00:13:34,510 S2: it's best that you go get some help, like, you know, that. 228 00:13:34,510 --> 00:13:38,630 S2: But thankfully, we were both willing to, um, but, and 229 00:13:38,630 --> 00:13:41,670 S2: we saw probably off and on for the first 28 230 00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:45,820 S2: years of our marriage, we probably saw four, maybe 4 231 00:13:45,820 --> 00:13:48,580 S2: or 5. Well, actually, wait a minute. Let's go back. 232 00:13:48,580 --> 00:13:52,180 S2: I forgot about what happened when you were in Bible college, right. 233 00:13:52,420 --> 00:13:56,900 S3: So, uh, when I, uh, we lived in married student 234 00:13:56,900 --> 00:14:01,020 S3: housing at Lincoln Christian. Uh, I think it was a 235 00:14:01,020 --> 00:14:01,660 S3: Bible college. 236 00:14:01,980 --> 00:14:02,180 S4: Back. 237 00:14:02,220 --> 00:14:08,140 S3: Then. And, uh, a neighbor asked me to, uh, go 238 00:14:08,140 --> 00:14:13,020 S3: to lunch, and he. I really appreciated that he had 239 00:14:13,020 --> 00:14:20,940 S3: the courage to say. Mark, um, I'm hearing you yell, basically. Oh, wow. And, uh, 240 00:14:21,220 --> 00:14:24,580 S3: I want to encourage you to talk to this guy 241 00:14:24,820 --> 00:14:28,620 S3: who was a counselor that you are a lot like me. 242 00:14:28,660 --> 00:14:32,540 S3: And he really helped me. And so that really began 243 00:14:32,540 --> 00:14:37,820 S3: a journey of me starting to dig into me and 244 00:14:37,820 --> 00:14:43,460 S3: my past and my upbringing and that influence and. And 245 00:14:43,460 --> 00:14:50,460 S3: so personally, I was in and out of counseling for, uh, well, 246 00:14:50,460 --> 00:14:54,300 S3: that was probably 5 or 6 years in. And so 247 00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:58,180 S3: for the next 23 years, I was in and out 248 00:14:58,180 --> 00:15:00,860 S3: of counseling. And then Jill and I did go to 249 00:15:01,060 --> 00:15:02,940 S3: marriage counselors, uh. 250 00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:04,660 S2: A couple of, you know, a few times and I 251 00:15:04,660 --> 00:15:08,300 S2: feel like we would get better things, we'd understand each other. 252 00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:11,100 S2: We can now look back on it and realize, though, 253 00:15:11,140 --> 00:15:15,820 S2: a lot of times those were putting Band-Aids on situations. 254 00:15:15,820 --> 00:15:19,979 S2: We weren't understanding the root of what was going on. 255 00:15:20,620 --> 00:15:26,460 S2: It wasn't until we had our, um, our dark year, uh, 256 00:15:26,460 --> 00:15:32,420 S2: which was 2011, 2012. Um, that, and then we began 257 00:15:32,420 --> 00:15:35,380 S2: to heal from that. And that's where we got to 258 00:15:35,460 --> 00:15:39,140 S2: the heart of the dynamics that we're playing out in 259 00:15:39,140 --> 00:15:43,610 S2: our relationship and we no longer like after that. We 260 00:15:43,610 --> 00:15:46,170 S2: did not do we did not put band aids on anything. 261 00:15:46,170 --> 00:15:47,210 S2: We did surgery. 262 00:15:47,250 --> 00:15:49,130 S4: Wow. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 263 00:15:49,410 --> 00:15:53,570 S1: Okay. So 2011, 2012, you described those as the, the 264 00:15:53,610 --> 00:15:59,290 S1: dark years. What mark, what happened? That's kind of set 265 00:15:59,290 --> 00:16:01,610 S1: off these dark years of your marriage. 266 00:16:02,730 --> 00:16:08,450 S3: Well, I had, uh, so probably the two years prior 267 00:16:08,450 --> 00:16:12,450 S3: and then leading up to that, I had become very 268 00:16:12,450 --> 00:16:18,570 S3: discouraged in life. I actually entered my own midlife crisis. Uh, 269 00:16:18,570 --> 00:16:23,489 S3: I didn't really believe that was a legitimate term until 270 00:16:23,490 --> 00:16:27,290 S3: I realized I'm in one. But life wasn't rolling out 271 00:16:27,290 --> 00:16:32,050 S3: the way I had envisioned. I was disappointed in where 272 00:16:32,050 --> 00:16:36,570 S3: I was in life. I was disappointed in ministry as 273 00:16:36,970 --> 00:16:41,330 S3: I was disappointed in God and everybody. Everybody was a 274 00:16:41,330 --> 00:16:46,290 S3: problem but me, and because I tried to fix me 275 00:16:46,810 --> 00:16:51,530 S3: and so I couldn't. And so it must be everything else. 276 00:16:51,530 --> 00:16:59,370 S3: And so that really ultimately unraveled into me having an affair. Uh, 277 00:16:59,610 --> 00:17:06,210 S3: that first started in, uh, late spring of 2011 and 278 00:17:06,210 --> 00:17:14,850 S3: then culminated in me moving out, uh, February of 2012 and, uh, 279 00:17:14,890 --> 00:17:21,050 S3: getting an apartment, pursuing this other relationship, uh, wholeheartedly thinking 280 00:17:21,050 --> 00:17:24,930 S3: that that was going to fix everything until I realized 281 00:17:25,290 --> 00:17:29,050 S3: the common denominator in all of my struggles wasn't all 282 00:17:29,090 --> 00:17:33,889 S3: this other stuff or all these other people. It was me. 283 00:17:34,090 --> 00:17:37,960 S2: Well, because that relationship started to have conflict, right? And 284 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:39,720 S2: that was what woke you up? 285 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:40,320 S4: Yeah. 286 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:45,200 S1: Now, mark what? You know, the the enemy is so deceptive. 287 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,919 S1: What were the lies that you were believing that allowed 288 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,520 S1: you to kind of justify? I mean, you had you 289 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,679 S1: you had been in ministry like you knew the truth. 290 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,960 S1: What lies did you believe that allowed you to kind 291 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,320 S1: of make these decisions? 292 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,160 S3: Oh, though my lies were deep. Uh, a lot of 293 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,200 S3: shame lies. I'm not good enough. I'm not lovable. 294 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:08,680 S4: Yeah. 295 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:14,200 S3: Uh, I even saw, believed that God, uh, loved everybody else, 296 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,119 S3: but didn't love me. That his blessings and provision was 297 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,480 S3: for everyone else. But for me. Uh, I felt like 298 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:29,399 S3: I believed the lie that everybody was taking from me. And, uh, 299 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,480 S3: in our marriage, I just, I believed that I couldn't 300 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,680 S3: measure up, that, uh, my voice didn't matter. That I 301 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,399 S3: didn't matter. That I wasn't good enough. 302 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,120 S2: There were also two other ones that you shared with me, 303 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,240 S2: and that was that I didn't need you. 304 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:45,040 S4: Oh, right. 305 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,000 S2: And then the second one was that the kids would 306 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:49,200 S2: be fine, right? 307 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:49,680 S4: Wow. 308 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,600 S2: The kids would not only be fine, they would understand. 309 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,959 S3: And celebrate me. Really? That. Yeah. Mom's a hard woman. Uh, 310 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,280 S3: she's a strong woman. Dad, I don't know how you 311 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,720 S3: put up with her as long as you did. And. 312 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:04,639 S2: But that did not happen. 313 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:05,000 S3: That did. 314 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:06,840 S4: Not happen. Jill. 315 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:13,160 S1: As you started to see Mark make these decisions. What 316 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,760 S1: what was your reaction as a as a wife? I mean, 317 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,439 S1: obviously you're, you're, you're, you're shocked. But then, I mean, 318 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,000 S1: this is a series of decisions of, I mean, there's 319 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,320 S1: the discovery that this is going on, but then there's 320 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,840 S1: the like, what did you do? 321 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,680 S2: Well, I was heartbroken. Let's just start there. Um, I 322 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,119 S2: thought I can't I mean, I remember when I confronted 323 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:42,640 S2: him with what I had found out and he was, uh, 324 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,400 S2: he was very, um, self-righteous and, and like, yeah, I'm 325 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,280 S2: having an affair and I'm not stopping. I thought, this 326 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:56,240 S2: this isn't my husband. I don't know who this man is. Um, and, 327 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:02,080 S2: and so I was, uh, beyond heartbroken. And, uh, but 328 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,159 S2: I also knew, I knew he'd been struggling for a while. Yeah. 329 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,600 S2: I mean, I certainly didn't understand he'd been struggling to 330 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,080 S2: this degree. Right. But I knew he'd been struggling. And 331 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,880 S2: I knew that it really wasn't about our marriage. And 332 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,280 S2: I'm not saying that there weren't dynamics playing out in 333 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,680 S2: our marriage that we needed to look at. There were, 334 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,919 S2: but it wasn't. I knew that this was about a, 335 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:30,159 S2: a a fight going on inside of him. And, and 336 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,310 S2: so I actually, I mean, I would I would have this, 337 00:20:34,350 --> 00:20:37,350 S2: you know, I would have massive cry fests. I would 338 00:20:37,350 --> 00:20:43,950 S2: be beside myself in anger and frustration and hurt. But also, 339 00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:46,710 S2: I had this part of me that had some compassion 340 00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:51,390 S2: for his lostness. Like, it was like I knew that 341 00:20:51,390 --> 00:20:55,550 S2: he was just extremely lost and had had really lost 342 00:20:55,550 --> 00:21:00,310 S2: his way. And so ultimately, I made a decision to, 343 00:21:00,350 --> 00:21:02,710 S2: to I didn't even know there was a term, but 344 00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:05,510 S2: there's actually a term that people use. I made a 345 00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:10,109 S2: decision to stand for my marriage. So I was like, I'm, 346 00:21:10,150 --> 00:21:15,470 S2: I'm believing for my marriage and I'm taking a stand and, 347 00:21:15,470 --> 00:21:19,910 S2: and believing for it. Even after he left, I still 348 00:21:19,910 --> 00:21:25,150 S2: stood for my marriage. And, um, I didn't know what, 349 00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:27,110 S2: you know, what the result was going to be, what 350 00:21:27,109 --> 00:21:29,990 S2: the outcome was going to be. I wanted to believe 351 00:21:30,310 --> 00:21:34,350 S2: that he could make a U-turn. Um, and even my 352 00:21:34,350 --> 00:21:38,270 S2: Christian counselor, when we were separated and, and Mark had been, 353 00:21:38,310 --> 00:21:40,230 S2: you know, moved out of the house for several months. 354 00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:42,670 S2: My Christian counselor was like, Jill, I think that you 355 00:21:42,670 --> 00:21:46,149 S2: need to start facing reality, that you may have to 356 00:21:46,190 --> 00:21:49,710 S2: move forward in life without him. Um, and I just 357 00:21:49,710 --> 00:21:53,470 S2: didn't feel released at that point. Yeah. You know, you know, 358 00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:53,870 S2: when you. 359 00:21:53,869 --> 00:21:55,669 S1: Say, I want to jump in here because I know 360 00:21:55,670 --> 00:21:58,389 S1: that there are people who are listening, listening, particularly women, 361 00:21:58,390 --> 00:22:01,390 S1: and you hear something like stand for my marriage. And 362 00:22:01,390 --> 00:22:05,630 S1: for some women, that can provoke almost a visceral response 363 00:22:05,630 --> 00:22:10,949 S1: of like, come on. He's doing all this. He's abandoned you. 364 00:22:10,990 --> 00:22:13,990 S1: He's abandoned the family. And your response is to stand 365 00:22:13,990 --> 00:22:17,030 S1: for your I mean, I just knowing sometimes how the 366 00:22:17,030 --> 00:22:19,910 S1: mind of a woman can work. Some women are almost 367 00:22:19,910 --> 00:22:23,110 S1: ready to yell at the radio right now of like, 368 00:22:23,150 --> 00:22:26,950 S1: come on, Jill. Right. It. Dig a little deeper as 369 00:22:26,950 --> 00:22:31,100 S1: to why that from the Lord was the right response 370 00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:32,899 S1: for for for your marriage. 371 00:22:33,340 --> 00:22:36,420 S2: Right. Well, let me tell you about a moment that 372 00:22:36,420 --> 00:22:40,660 S2: I had. It was literally the day after I found 373 00:22:40,660 --> 00:22:45,940 S2: out about the affair and I had confronted him. Um, 374 00:22:45,980 --> 00:22:50,699 S2: it was not good. In that confrontation. And I was, 375 00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:55,219 S2: I was laying on my living room floor crying like 376 00:22:55,220 --> 00:22:58,980 S2: I was a wreck. The carpet was wet. And I 377 00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:00,740 S2: was like, God, you're going to have to tell me 378 00:23:00,740 --> 00:23:03,660 S2: what to do. I have no idea what to do. 379 00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:05,500 S2: You're going to have to tell me what to do. 380 00:23:05,740 --> 00:23:10,860 S2: What do I do? And I heard only one thing. 381 00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:14,340 S2: I heard, I want, I want you to love him. 382 00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:18,980 S2: And I thought, you have got to be kidding me. 383 00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:19,660 S4: Oh, boy. 384 00:23:20,180 --> 00:23:22,820 S2: I mean, I remember getting up. I mean, you talk 385 00:23:22,859 --> 00:23:26,020 S2: about a visceral response. Yeah, right. Like, I had a 386 00:23:26,020 --> 00:23:30,500 S2: visceral response. I remember getting up off the floor. Looking 387 00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:34,300 S2: at heaven. Almost like raising my fist to heaven and going, 388 00:23:34,340 --> 00:23:37,860 S2: you have to be kidding me. And it wasn't like 389 00:23:37,859 --> 00:23:40,860 S2: I heard a voice, but it was this thought that 390 00:23:40,859 --> 00:23:44,220 S2: came to my mind that I knew wasn't mine, because 391 00:23:44,220 --> 00:23:48,139 S2: I wasn't feeling any type of love in that moment. Right. 392 00:23:48,580 --> 00:23:53,500 S2: And so I, I remember saying to the Lord, you 393 00:23:53,940 --> 00:23:57,740 S2: have to be kidding me. I don't know if you've noticed, 394 00:23:57,740 --> 00:24:02,260 S2: but he's not very lovable right now. And I heard 395 00:24:02,260 --> 00:24:06,180 S2: God whisper back to my heart, I don't know if 396 00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:09,460 S2: you've noticed, but sometimes you aren't either. 397 00:24:11,140 --> 00:24:11,500 S4: Oh. 398 00:24:11,780 --> 00:24:18,540 S2: Yeah. And I thought, okay, you love me, Lord, when 399 00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:23,500 S2: I'm unlovable. I don't know how to do that. I 400 00:24:23,500 --> 00:24:25,219 S2: don't know how to do that. I know how to 401 00:24:25,260 --> 00:24:28,780 S2: love somebody who's loving you back. I know how to 402 00:24:28,820 --> 00:24:31,820 S2: love somebody when it's reciprocal. I don't know how to 403 00:24:31,859 --> 00:24:37,340 S2: love somebody who's not loving you. But you do. You're 404 00:24:37,340 --> 00:24:40,340 S2: gonna have to show me how to do that. And 405 00:24:40,340 --> 00:24:44,420 S2: so that moment, I felt like I had my marching orders. Ali. 406 00:24:44,980 --> 00:24:45,380 S4: Wow. 407 00:24:45,740 --> 00:24:48,580 S2: It wasn't what I wanted, but I felt like it 408 00:24:48,580 --> 00:24:49,300 S2: was clear. 409 00:24:50,180 --> 00:24:53,340 S1: Jill and Mark Savage with us right now. No More 410 00:24:53,340 --> 00:24:58,060 S1: Perfect Marriages is our featured resource today. So I told 411 00:24:58,060 --> 00:25:00,340 S1: you from the top that we are going to talk 412 00:25:00,340 --> 00:25:03,100 S1: about the good, the bad, and the ugly. And we've 413 00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:05,979 S1: heard some of the bad and the ugly. But let's 414 00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:09,300 S1: get to the good part. Let's get to the U-turn. 415 00:25:09,820 --> 00:25:13,660 S1: Jill was standing in faith, standing for her marriage, believing 416 00:25:13,660 --> 00:25:17,619 S1: that God can. I love this guy who's not very lovable. 417 00:25:17,660 --> 00:25:21,740 S1: Could he possibly, in his lostness, turn back? Not just 418 00:25:21,740 --> 00:25:24,340 S1: to me, not just to my family, but first and 419 00:25:24,340 --> 00:25:28,490 S1: foremost to you. Are, you know, the end of the story, right? 420 00:25:28,490 --> 00:25:30,730 S1: Because they're on the show and you hear the joy 421 00:25:30,730 --> 00:25:33,810 S1: and you hear the laughter and you hear the hope. 422 00:25:34,050 --> 00:25:36,570 S1: Maybe you're in a tough marriage today. And so much 423 00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:38,890 S1: of this story resonates because you're in the middle of 424 00:25:38,890 --> 00:25:42,410 S1: the bad and the ugly. I promise we'll get to 425 00:25:42,410 --> 00:25:45,130 S1: the good part, the part where God heals and God 426 00:25:45,130 --> 00:25:49,530 S1: restores and the lessons that they want every married couple 427 00:25:49,570 --> 00:25:52,450 S1: to take away from this conversation. We've got more with 428 00:25:52,450 --> 00:25:54,890 S1: Mark and Jill Savage coming up on Chris Fabry Live. 429 00:26:04,730 --> 00:26:10,170 S1: Is there hope for a marriage that is in crisis? Absolutely. 430 00:26:10,810 --> 00:26:13,730 S1: When God's in the picture. Mark and Jill Savage with 431 00:26:13,730 --> 00:26:16,250 S1: us today on Chris Fabry Live. I'm Ally Domercant sitting 432 00:26:16,250 --> 00:26:19,010 S1: in for Chris today. They're the author of today's featured 433 00:26:19,010 --> 00:26:24,730 S1: resource No More Perfect Marriages. Mark, you have been so 434 00:26:24,890 --> 00:26:28,250 S1: honest about that dark time in your life where you 435 00:26:28,290 --> 00:26:30,889 S1: were lost. You were believing the lies of the enemy 436 00:26:30,890 --> 00:26:33,170 S1: that said, you know this woman that I married? She 437 00:26:33,170 --> 00:26:36,530 S1: doesn't need me. She doesn't get me. And this life 438 00:26:36,530 --> 00:26:40,450 S1: that's possible over here with someone else is surely better 439 00:26:40,450 --> 00:26:42,609 S1: than what I have here at home. What did a 440 00:26:42,609 --> 00:26:45,210 S1: U-turn look like for you? When did the light go 441 00:26:45,210 --> 00:26:48,690 S1: on and you realized how lost you were and what 442 00:26:48,690 --> 00:26:50,890 S1: you had kind of thrown away? 443 00:26:52,410 --> 00:26:57,970 S3: Um, I was, uh, I was in a position where 444 00:26:58,369 --> 00:27:03,530 S3: the other relationship was falling apart. My relationship with my 445 00:27:03,530 --> 00:27:09,890 S3: kids was not going as I had believed. And I, 446 00:27:11,210 --> 00:27:16,210 S3: I was believing that I just needed to divorce and 447 00:27:16,210 --> 00:27:20,370 S3: live and ruin and set Jill and the family free. 448 00:27:21,050 --> 00:27:26,640 S3: And it was Easter Sunday, 2012. I had my own 449 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:33,360 S3: personal resurrection that day that I actually communicated to Jill 450 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,639 S3: that I was going to file for divorce this next week. 451 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,600 S3: And I tell you what, Ali, I was in such 452 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,679 S3: a mess. Personally, I didn't even know it was Easter. 453 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,760 S2: And this was like really early morning. We were separated, 454 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,320 S2: but we had actually we were together that morning because 455 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,440 S2: our daughter had had a baby. And so we, our 456 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,240 S2: second grandbaby had been born. 457 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:01,840 S4: Yeah. 458 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,680 S2: And so, um, we were together at our home that morning. 459 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:12,119 S2: Our two teenage sons got themselves to church. And, uh, 460 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,639 S2: he and I were just having a brief conversation before 461 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,000 S2: he left. And he said, I just want you to 462 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,000 S2: know I'm filing for divorce this week. And my heart 463 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,600 S2: dropped and I. One of the places God had been 464 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,000 S2: growing me was to only use my voice for good. 465 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,680 S2: And if God gave me words because I realized I 466 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,680 S2: had sometimes used my voice for negative, and it had 467 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,840 S2: torn marked down. And so that was a place I 468 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,960 S2: was changing. And so I didn't even know how to respond. 469 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:51,160 S2: So I, I just said, you know, Mark, Jesus didn't 470 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,200 S2: want to go to the cross. And, and he and 471 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,880 S2: he said, you know, father, take this cup from me. 472 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,040 S2: But then he surrendered and said, not my will, but 473 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,040 S2: yours be done. 474 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,400 S3: And I tell you, it was the craziest thing when 475 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:11,120 S3: Jill said that, I heard, uh, Father God just almost 476 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,480 S3: put his. I felt like he put his arm around 477 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,400 S3: me and said, Mark, if you'll trust me for the mess, 478 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:23,160 S3: I'll take care of the rest. And in Aspiration. Uh, 479 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,960 S3: I was like, okay, I'm in. And so I looked 480 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:33,240 S3: to Jill and I said, is today Easter? And she. 481 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:34,440 S4: She was, I mean. 482 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,280 S2: You know, this explains how. 483 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:37,600 S4: I was. 484 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:38,920 S2: Not in a good place. 485 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:40,360 S4: I was not in a good place. 486 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,320 S3: And, uh, and then I said, oh my goodness, I, 487 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,880 S3: I'm going to pray that same prayer. And so I 488 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,320 S3: did I out loud, I said, father, I don't know 489 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:57,560 S3: how to fix this. Uh, but I've made a mess 490 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,800 S3: and it's not my will but yours be done. And 491 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,920 S3: I would say in the for the first time in 492 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:11,440 S3: my adult life, I surrendered fully to Jesus Christ. I, 493 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,880 S3: I was a pastor, I would have said I had surrendered, 494 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,320 S3: but really I hadn't. I argued with him. I debated 495 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:24,190 S3: with him. I tried to hold him accountable to his word. Uh, 496 00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:29,190 S3: and on that day, I was like, I'm going to 497 00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:32,070 S3: quit fighting with you. I'm going to quit arguing and 498 00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:35,590 S3: debating just whatever you want me to do. I'm going 499 00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:39,830 S3: to grab your hand and do what you say. And 500 00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:44,150 S3: that began. That was my U-turn. But that also has 501 00:30:44,150 --> 00:30:47,910 S3: been the posture of my heart ever since, that I 502 00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:51,390 S3: do not want to be in the way. I just 503 00:30:51,390 --> 00:30:55,310 S3: want to have dad's hand and do what he says. 504 00:30:56,430 --> 00:30:57,710 S3: And for Jill. 505 00:30:57,910 --> 00:30:58,030 S4: I. 506 00:30:58,030 --> 00:31:01,630 S2: Mean, I, I watched a change come over him. In 507 00:31:01,670 --> 00:31:07,390 S2: that moment. I watched like I physically saw him change 508 00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:10,750 S2: in that surrender in a, in a, in a good way. 509 00:31:10,750 --> 00:31:15,310 S2: I didn't know really what had happened, but I was like, okay, 510 00:31:15,350 --> 00:31:21,870 S2: something's different. Because even because during that last ten months 511 00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:25,750 S2: that we had been walking through, he had recommitted to 512 00:31:25,790 --> 00:31:29,390 S2: the marriage and then gone back to the affair seven times. 513 00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:29,950 S4: Right. 514 00:31:30,830 --> 00:31:33,990 S2: But none of them had been like this moment. None 515 00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:38,070 S2: of them. And so I knew something had happened. I 516 00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:42,070 S2: didn't trust it, but I knew that I was kind 517 00:31:42,070 --> 00:31:45,710 S2: of we were on holy ground. Right. And and he 518 00:31:45,710 --> 00:31:47,670 S2: looked up at me and he said, could we go 519 00:31:47,670 --> 00:31:52,190 S2: to church? And I thought, well, yeah, we can go 520 00:31:52,190 --> 00:31:55,630 S2: to church. And he hadn't been in church in months, 521 00:31:55,630 --> 00:31:58,870 S2: probably six months. And so we did. We went to 522 00:31:58,910 --> 00:32:02,870 S2: church and, and um, he spent the day with us. 523 00:32:02,910 --> 00:32:05,790 S2: And that was the beginning. He broke off the other 524 00:32:05,790 --> 00:32:11,350 S2: relationship completely. He did not move home for another two months, 525 00:32:11,750 --> 00:32:16,590 S2: but we began the process of healing and, uh, it 526 00:32:16,590 --> 00:32:19,980 S2: was putting the wheels back on the bus ever so 527 00:32:19,980 --> 00:32:22,460 S2: slowly over the next couple of years. 528 00:32:22,780 --> 00:32:25,660 S3: Both of us. We did not want to go back 529 00:32:25,660 --> 00:32:31,060 S3: to the way our marriage had been before us. We 530 00:32:31,100 --> 00:32:35,700 S3: wanted something new and we had no idea what that meant. 531 00:32:36,020 --> 00:32:41,140 S3: But the Lord had a vision for that, and we 532 00:32:41,140 --> 00:32:46,140 S3: just kept leaning into what can Mark and Jill 2.0 533 00:32:46,140 --> 00:32:51,420 S3: look like? And how, how, Lord, how can we get there? 534 00:32:51,540 --> 00:32:54,180 S3: And so we began that journey. 535 00:32:54,820 --> 00:33:00,780 S1: You've used words like journey, process because you don't try 536 00:33:00,780 --> 00:33:04,740 S1: to sugarcoat the fact that this was a process out. 537 00:33:04,900 --> 00:33:05,860 S4: I mean, yeah. 538 00:33:06,180 --> 00:33:12,020 S1: Of rebuilding trust, of restoring intimacy. And what, what, what 539 00:33:12,020 --> 00:33:14,300 S1: did that look like? What were some of the key 540 00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:18,540 S1: things that allowed you to go from your lowest of 541 00:33:18,540 --> 00:33:22,700 S1: lows to like restored trust and joy. What were the 542 00:33:22,740 --> 00:33:24,340 S1: key factors there? 543 00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:25,380 S4: Mhm. 544 00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:30,660 S2: Well, one was counseling. And so we, uh, we began 545 00:33:30,660 --> 00:33:34,020 S2: meeting with a counselor every Friday, and we met with 546 00:33:34,020 --> 00:33:37,580 S2: that counselor every Friday for 18 months. 547 00:33:37,660 --> 00:33:38,220 S4: Mhm. 548 00:33:38,340 --> 00:33:44,980 S2: And, uh, so there was a sacrifice of time, of finances. 549 00:33:45,020 --> 00:33:48,459 S2: Our counselor was an hour away, so that was a 550 00:33:48,460 --> 00:33:51,900 S2: three hour commitment every week. Um, so I would say 551 00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:54,620 S2: that was a big part of it. We started reading 552 00:33:54,620 --> 00:33:59,580 S2: books about, uh, a fair recovery and about marriage. And 553 00:33:59,580 --> 00:34:03,020 S2: we were reading them together. So we'd crawl in bed 554 00:34:03,020 --> 00:34:06,220 S2: at night and we'd read 2 or 3 pages. Mark 555 00:34:06,220 --> 00:34:08,660 S2: would read the left page, I'd read the right page, 556 00:34:08,940 --> 00:34:11,140 S2: and then we'd talk about it. It'd take us nine 557 00:34:11,140 --> 00:34:12,780 S2: months to get through a book, but. 558 00:34:13,700 --> 00:34:14,140 S4: But it's. 559 00:34:14,140 --> 00:34:14,890 S3: Like birthing. 560 00:34:14,890 --> 00:34:17,090 S4: A baby. But we were. 561 00:34:17,090 --> 00:34:20,450 S2: Taught. But we were birthing a new marriage, right? And 562 00:34:20,450 --> 00:34:24,089 S2: we were talking about what we were reading and we 563 00:34:24,090 --> 00:34:28,570 S2: were learning. And, and it was so, uh, lots of, 564 00:34:28,610 --> 00:34:32,410 S2: you know, of course, I had conversations about what had happened. 565 00:34:32,450 --> 00:34:36,210 S2: I had questions. And so he had to be willing 566 00:34:36,250 --> 00:34:43,610 S2: to answer those questions without exasperation, without defensiveness. And that 567 00:34:43,850 --> 00:34:46,290 S2: was extremely important. 568 00:34:46,330 --> 00:34:49,569 S3: I had been a silent man in our marriage. 569 00:34:49,730 --> 00:34:51,530 S2: Uh, silent and simmering. 570 00:34:51,570 --> 00:34:57,969 S3: Silent and simmering. And, uh, in my silence, I. And 571 00:34:57,969 --> 00:35:02,850 S3: when I surrendered, uh, my big question was, Lord, I 572 00:35:02,890 --> 00:35:05,530 S3: do not know how to love Jill like you love me. 573 00:35:06,210 --> 00:35:09,450 S3: And I've got to learn how to do this. And 574 00:35:10,170 --> 00:35:14,450 S3: so part of that journey was learning to voice my 575 00:35:14,450 --> 00:35:19,650 S3: opinions and to have an opinion and, uh, and to 576 00:35:19,690 --> 00:35:26,410 S3: be willing to have healthy, uh, loving conflict because that 577 00:35:26,410 --> 00:35:29,850 S3: was going to help us get better. And so I 578 00:35:29,890 --> 00:35:35,170 S3: began using my voice. I began communicating what I was 579 00:35:35,170 --> 00:35:41,089 S3: really thinking and feeling, but also I was deeply convicted 580 00:35:41,090 --> 00:35:45,050 S3: that I made this mess. It was not Jill's fault. 581 00:35:45,050 --> 00:35:50,810 S3: It was not anybody's fault but mine. And I needed to, 582 00:35:51,330 --> 00:35:56,170 S3: in humility, answer every question. Jill had not get angry 583 00:35:56,170 --> 00:35:56,730 S3: at her. 584 00:35:56,850 --> 00:35:59,530 S2: Even if I asked the same question five times. Which 585 00:35:59,530 --> 00:36:03,650 S2: is normal for when you're recovering from infidelity, right? 586 00:36:04,210 --> 00:36:07,210 S3: And so I was just committed to, I am going 587 00:36:07,250 --> 00:36:11,529 S3: to learn how to love her because that's what Jesus 588 00:36:11,530 --> 00:36:15,410 S3: does to us. He he's he's. 589 00:36:15,890 --> 00:36:16,690 S2: Patient. 590 00:36:17,010 --> 00:36:23,090 S3: He's engaged. He's he's present. Uh, he's not saying you 591 00:36:23,090 --> 00:36:25,650 S3: asked me this ten times. When are you, you know, 592 00:36:25,690 --> 00:36:26,730 S3: when are you going to stop? 593 00:36:27,290 --> 00:36:28,569 S4: When are you going to get this? Haven't you. 594 00:36:28,570 --> 00:36:29,089 S1: Learned this by. 595 00:36:29,130 --> 00:36:31,730 S4: Now? Right, right. None of that. 596 00:36:32,050 --> 00:36:36,970 S3: No. And so, uh, I, I just had no idea 597 00:36:37,530 --> 00:36:41,130 S3: how to do it. And so I was very committed 598 00:36:41,130 --> 00:36:45,049 S3: to trying to figure it out and almost do the 599 00:36:45,050 --> 00:36:49,410 S3: opposite of what I had done for that first 28 years. 600 00:36:49,730 --> 00:36:53,650 S2: Yeah. Yeah. And, and Alli, we've actually written two small booklets. 601 00:36:53,650 --> 00:36:58,810 S2: They're available on Amazon, um, that specifically talk through. They 602 00:36:58,850 --> 00:37:03,450 S2: are for both sides of betrayal. Uh, my book is 603 00:37:03,450 --> 00:37:06,410 S2: called My Heart is Broken your next steps when your 604 00:37:06,410 --> 00:37:10,450 S2: spouse is unfaithful and his is called, I really messed 605 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:15,600 S2: up your next steps to heal your marriage after an affair. And, um, 606 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:23,840 S2: those really lead people through, uh, what it takes, uh, to, uh, 607 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,840 S2: you know, begin to, to create that two point marriage 608 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,880 S2: to respond in a way that is trust building. Um, 609 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,279 S2: and the only way that trust can be rebuilt. This 610 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,360 S2: is really important. Ali. I think people get confused sometimes 611 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:44,000 S2: is they think that it's all about forgiveness. Forgiveness opens 612 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,319 S2: the door for trust to be rebuilt. That's forgiveness. Forgiveness 613 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,800 S2: in and of itself does not rebuild trust. So I 614 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,400 S2: forgave Mark, but it took Mark a year to rebuild 615 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:58,279 S2: my trust. 616 00:37:58,400 --> 00:37:58,960 S4: Mhm. 617 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,200 S2: Okay. So I that's really important. And this is where 618 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,520 S2: people struggle. Um, and, you know, the person who was, 619 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,040 S2: who betrays is like, well, you forgave me. Why are 620 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,879 S2: we still talking about this? And and so no, we 621 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,680 S2: have to talk about it to continue the rebuilding trust process. 622 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,279 S2: And so, um, so, and, and forgiveness, what I will 623 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,520 S2: say is, is layered. It's not once and done. 624 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:27,080 S4: Mhm. 625 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,080 S2: I, I probably had to forgive Mark for, I don't know, 626 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,280 S2: 100 different facets of this thing. 627 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:34,840 S4: Right. 628 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,040 S2: It wasn't just once and done. It was these dynamics 629 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,120 S2: that played out, putting our kids at risk, putting my 630 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,439 S2: health at risk, um, putting our finances at risk. Like 631 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,200 S2: there were so many layers. And so we had to 632 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:55,080 S2: have conversations about those layers. And when he handled those 633 00:38:55,080 --> 00:39:02,400 S2: conversations in a patient, um, honoring way, a humble way 634 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,320 S2: to say, yes, I can, I can see how that 635 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,230 S2: put you at risk or put us at risk. And 636 00:39:10,230 --> 00:39:15,430 S2: I am sincerely sorry for that piece or how that 637 00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:19,830 S2: is still affecting us. That rebuilt my trust. 638 00:39:20,030 --> 00:39:22,910 S1: Mark and Jill Savage, our guests this hour on Chris 639 00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:26,350 S1: Fabry Live no more perfect marriages. Go to Chris Fabry 640 00:39:26,350 --> 00:39:31,270 S1: live.org for the resource of the day. Chris Fabry live.org. 641 00:39:31,390 --> 00:39:33,430 S1: I'm going to ask them, what would they say to 642 00:39:33,469 --> 00:39:35,990 S1: the marriage that's in trouble today coming up. 643 00:39:44,710 --> 00:39:47,310 S5: Whether you need encouragement, hope, or just a friend to 644 00:39:47,310 --> 00:39:50,190 S5: listen to your heart, you're welcome at Chris Fabry Live 645 00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:52,750 S5: to keep this conversation going. I want to invite you 646 00:39:52,750 --> 00:39:56,030 S5: to become a back fence partner. Your monthly gift keeps 647 00:39:56,030 --> 00:39:58,469 S5: us on the air in your neighborhood. Find out about 648 00:39:58,469 --> 00:40:03,430 S5: exclusive offers and personal messages from yours truly. Call 86695 649 00:40:03,469 --> 00:40:08,070 S5: favorite or automate your giving online at Chris Fabry live.org. 650 00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:15,149 S1: I hope this hour has given you some hope. As 651 00:40:15,150 --> 00:40:19,510 S1: you've heard, Mark and Jill's honest story of how God 652 00:40:19,510 --> 00:40:24,350 S1: restored their marriage restored hope. I want to give some 653 00:40:24,350 --> 00:40:27,790 S1: practical takeaways, though. If you are in the middle of 654 00:40:27,790 --> 00:40:31,870 S1: it right now, maybe it's not been infidelity, but maybe 655 00:40:31,910 --> 00:40:34,950 S1: it's something else. Something else that's caused your marriage to 656 00:40:34,989 --> 00:40:38,630 S1: be in a difficult place. Maybe you have talked about 657 00:40:38,630 --> 00:40:42,430 S1: the possibility of of ending a marriage. Mark, I want 658 00:40:42,469 --> 00:40:44,509 S1: to start with you. What would be the for the 659 00:40:44,510 --> 00:40:48,310 S1: person who's listening today and who goes, we haven't had 660 00:40:48,310 --> 00:40:51,469 S1: some big implosion, but boy, the, the, the vows that 661 00:40:51,469 --> 00:40:54,110 S1: we took, the love that was once there just doesn't 662 00:40:54,110 --> 00:40:56,350 S1: I don't feel it anymore. And I'm pretty sure he 663 00:40:56,350 --> 00:40:59,310 S1: or she doesn't either. What would you say to that 664 00:40:59,310 --> 00:41:00,310 S1: person listening? 665 00:41:01,550 --> 00:41:06,710 S3: Uh, I would say a couple things. One, I wish 666 00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:11,589 S3: I had actually had a honest and direct conversation with 667 00:41:11,590 --> 00:41:20,029 S3: Jill that communicated my discouragement. And I would say to 668 00:41:20,110 --> 00:41:25,190 S3: the husband or the wife, have an honest conversation. But 669 00:41:25,190 --> 00:41:30,549 S3: with that, say we. I want to invite us to 670 00:41:30,590 --> 00:41:34,910 S3: get help. And most certainly Jill and I would be 671 00:41:34,910 --> 00:41:39,510 S3: glad to do help in any way we can. Uh, secondly, 672 00:41:40,030 --> 00:41:42,950 S3: for the, uh, for the husband or the wife that 673 00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:48,190 S3: is silent and simmering. Find your voice. Find your voice 674 00:41:48,190 --> 00:41:56,630 S3: in a loving, uh, respectful way to start communicating who 675 00:41:56,830 --> 00:42:01,430 S3: what you are really thinking, what you are feeling and 676 00:42:01,430 --> 00:42:03,350 S3: what you want to do. 677 00:42:03,940 --> 00:42:04,140 S4: Yeah. 678 00:42:04,180 --> 00:42:06,420 S2: Learn to be assertive without being aggressive. 679 00:42:06,460 --> 00:42:07,940 S4: Right? Yeah. 680 00:42:08,260 --> 00:42:10,500 S1: Joe, what would you what would you add to that 681 00:42:10,540 --> 00:42:12,900 S1: to the person who's listening? Is this is this conversation 682 00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:14,819 S1: hits a lot of people in different ways. If you've 683 00:42:14,820 --> 00:42:18,260 S1: gone through some sort of betrayal, it may uproot some things. 684 00:42:18,260 --> 00:42:21,259 S1: It may cause, you know, I don't want to overuse it, 685 00:42:21,260 --> 00:42:24,540 S1: but the word it may trigger some difficult emotions. But 686 00:42:24,540 --> 00:42:27,500 S1: I think for the vast majority of people listening, it 687 00:42:27,500 --> 00:42:30,660 S1: probably makes them want more in their marriage. Like if 688 00:42:30,660 --> 00:42:33,540 S1: your marriage can come back from this, then, then, then 689 00:42:33,580 --> 00:42:35,300 S1: hope is possible. What do you say? 690 00:42:35,500 --> 00:42:39,819 S2: Yeah, I would say get help. Um. Get help. Don't 691 00:42:39,820 --> 00:42:45,500 S2: do it alone. Uh, on average, uh, couples wait six 692 00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:49,460 S2: years to get help. Six years past the point of 693 00:42:49,460 --> 00:42:53,340 S2: when they really needed help. That's actually what the data 694 00:42:53,340 --> 00:42:57,100 S2: shows us. And in that six years, there becomes a 695 00:42:57,100 --> 00:43:00,100 S2: lot more to untangle. It's not that it can't be untangled. 696 00:43:00,100 --> 00:43:04,739 S2: It can, but it's. If you can get help, um, 697 00:43:04,780 --> 00:43:10,700 S2: when things are disappointing and discouraging, get help. And, you know, 698 00:43:10,739 --> 00:43:14,060 S2: it's interesting, uh, we do, you know, we do marriage coaching, 699 00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:18,620 S2: we have our marriage 2.0 intensive where couples individually come 700 00:43:18,620 --> 00:43:23,020 S2: to our home and we work with them over three days. And, uh, 701 00:43:23,460 --> 00:43:27,540 S2: about 60% of couples that come have been married 40 702 00:43:27,540 --> 00:43:28,420 S2: years or more. 703 00:43:29,420 --> 00:43:29,820 S4: Wow. 704 00:43:29,860 --> 00:43:33,100 S2: 40. Like, let that land for just a moment. Okay. 705 00:43:33,739 --> 00:43:37,420 S2: And so, uh, you know, we have plenty of couples 706 00:43:37,420 --> 00:43:39,980 S2: that have, are in their early years and they're getting 707 00:43:39,980 --> 00:43:44,180 S2: help before things get really, really difficult and hard. But 708 00:43:44,180 --> 00:43:49,420 S2: it's also never too late. Like it's so satisfying for 709 00:43:49,420 --> 00:43:52,100 S2: us to help a couple who are in their 60s 710 00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:55,340 S2: and their 70s and they thought they were beyond help 711 00:43:55,340 --> 00:43:58,460 S2: and to go, oh my goodness, we are. We have 712 00:43:58,460 --> 00:44:02,570 S2: a new relationship that's so Satisfying. And whether you're working 713 00:44:02,570 --> 00:44:05,370 S2: with us or you find a counselor in town or, 714 00:44:05,530 --> 00:44:09,330 S2: you know, whatever. Whatever help you decide that you want 715 00:44:09,330 --> 00:44:12,649 S2: to find just, you know, one of the things we 716 00:44:12,650 --> 00:44:16,370 S2: often say is in marriage, if you're not rowing, you're drifting. 717 00:44:16,650 --> 00:44:21,529 S2: So start rowing, start rowing some way, start rowing. You know, 718 00:44:21,570 --> 00:44:24,130 S2: it could be as simple as having the conversation Mark 719 00:44:24,130 --> 00:44:28,130 S2: had said and saying, you know, I'm I miss us 720 00:44:28,130 --> 00:44:32,250 S2: or I miss connection. Could we just start setting aside 721 00:44:32,250 --> 00:44:36,690 S2: one evening a week that we go do something together? And, 722 00:44:36,730 --> 00:44:40,730 S2: you know, sometimes it's just picking some rhythms up and, and, 723 00:44:40,730 --> 00:44:45,370 S2: and starting to reignite the flame. Sometimes we need some 724 00:44:45,370 --> 00:44:48,009 S2: help doing that. We need to work through maybe some 725 00:44:48,010 --> 00:44:51,210 S2: resentment or some hurt or some bitterness. And that's when 726 00:44:51,210 --> 00:44:55,850 S2: we need to ask for help. Um, so either way, uh, 727 00:44:55,890 --> 00:45:00,970 S2: it's important that you have those conversations. I wish Mark 728 00:45:00,969 --> 00:45:06,169 S2: would have said to me, I am, I am upset, 729 00:45:06,170 --> 00:45:09,969 S2: I am hurting, and I'm actually thinking about leaving. I 730 00:45:09,969 --> 00:45:14,529 S2: think that would have helped me to go, whoa, we 731 00:45:14,530 --> 00:45:16,610 S2: really need to tend to something here. 732 00:45:16,650 --> 00:45:17,050 S4: Yeah. 733 00:45:17,850 --> 00:45:21,730 S1: Mark and Jill 2.0. How much better is Mark. 734 00:45:21,730 --> 00:45:25,050 S4: And Jill 2.0? Oh my gosh, they are amazing people. 735 00:45:25,250 --> 00:45:28,129 S2: We love we love Mark and Jill 2.0. 736 00:45:28,170 --> 00:45:29,450 S4: Yeah we do. 737 00:45:29,770 --> 00:45:34,250 S1: Mark and Jill Savage have so graciously opened their hearts 738 00:45:34,250 --> 00:45:38,290 S1: to you this hour. They've mentioned a couple of different resources. 739 00:45:38,290 --> 00:45:40,890 S1: We're going to have those linked up on the on 740 00:45:40,930 --> 00:45:45,969 S1: the website. Chris Fabry live.org. Chris fabriclive.org. I want to 741 00:45:45,969 --> 00:45:48,690 S1: thank you both so much for spending this time with us, 742 00:45:48,690 --> 00:45:53,690 S1: for your candor, for your honesty. We really, really appreciate it. 743 00:45:54,410 --> 00:45:55,649 S2: Oh, thanks for having us. 744 00:45:55,650 --> 00:45:57,370 S3: Yeah. Thank you. It's been great. 745 00:45:57,530 --> 00:46:00,520 S1: So I hope as you've listened, you've taken something that 746 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,480 S1: has encouraged your heart, that's given you some hope. Whether 747 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,840 S1: you're in a marriage that you are convinced there's no 748 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,879 S1: there's no hope for, or maybe you're single and you're 749 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,680 S1: listening and you're going, man, I want I want the 750 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,920 S1: 2.0 version first. You heard what was at the center 751 00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,760 S1: of their marriage, the center of that U-turn. We know 752 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,040 S1: that apart from him, apart from God, there's nothing that 753 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,600 S1: we can do. There's no life apart from him. There's 754 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:33,080 S1: no healthy marriage apart from him. There's superficial happiness, I guess, 755 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:39,360 S1: but genuine joy, genuine intimacy that only comes from being 756 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,719 S1: connected with the father. I want to thank you for 757 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,000 S1: spending this time with us today. It's truly been a 758 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,560 S1: privilege sitting in this seat, getting to share my heart 759 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,239 S1: with yours. Chris Fabry Live is a production of Moody Radio, 760 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,719 S1: a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for.