1 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,440 S1: Oh, I have been looking forward to this program for months. Yea, 2 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,960 S1: and verily for years, because many moons ago I used 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,280 S1: to enjoy the book club on Moody Radio that was 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,800 S1: led by the one, the only doctor, Rosalee de Roget, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,480 S1: and through an agreement with her agent and the Corporation 6 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,480 S1: for Public Book Clubs, LLC, we have secured the rights 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:29,479 S1: to once again start Rosie's Book Club 2.0. So today 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,600 S1: on Chris Fabry Live, we present the Radio Backyard Fence 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,520 S1: Book Club and a novel she suggested as their first 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,199 S1: read together. Shane by Jack Schaefer. If you've read it, 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,319 S1: jump in the pool or get in the corral and 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,840 S1: share your thoughts. Rosie will have some questions to ponder, 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,360 S1: but if you haven't read it, this conversation might spur 14 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,880 S1: you to do so. There will be spoilers, and you 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,440 S1: will hear the next book for our second book Club 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,730 S1: edition during this hour. Do not tune away. Let's get 17 00:00:59,730 --> 00:01:03,050 S1: started first by thanking today's team. Tricia's. Our producer, Chris 18 00:01:03,090 --> 00:01:05,610 S1: Seeger is doing all things technical along with Lisa. And 19 00:01:05,610 --> 00:01:08,050 S1: Josh will answer your calls today. And don't let me 20 00:01:08,050 --> 00:01:10,929 S1: forget to include our other members of the team, our 21 00:01:10,930 --> 00:01:13,490 S1: back fence friends and partners who support us. We can't 22 00:01:13,490 --> 00:01:16,089 S1: do what we do without you. Some do that with 23 00:01:16,090 --> 00:01:19,289 S1: a one time gift, some give each month. But it's 24 00:01:19,290 --> 00:01:22,369 S1: that support that allows us to have these kinds of conversations. 25 00:01:22,370 --> 00:01:24,490 S1: So thank you. Our gift to you in June is 26 00:01:24,490 --> 00:01:27,450 S1: by Doctor John Perkins, who wrote and spoke and lived 27 00:01:27,730 --> 00:01:32,009 S1: racial reconciliation. He was all about bringing people together. And 28 00:01:32,010 --> 00:01:35,970 S1: that is evidenced in his book One Blood Parting Words 29 00:01:35,970 --> 00:01:39,209 S1: to the Church on Race and Love. Doctor Perkins finished 30 00:01:39,209 --> 00:01:43,650 S1: his earthly race back in March. He was 95, and 31 00:01:43,650 --> 00:01:46,930 S1: I wanted to honor him and enrich your life with 32 00:01:46,930 --> 00:01:56,010 S1: this book. One Blood call or click through today. 8669538669532279. 33 00:01:56,010 --> 00:01:59,890 S1: Or go to Chris Dot org and you can give 34 00:01:59,890 --> 00:02:04,250 S1: right there. Chris Fabry live.org. Thank you for your generosity 35 00:02:04,250 --> 00:02:09,490 S1: today at the Radio Backyard Fence. Now, a poem she 36 00:02:09,490 --> 00:02:13,450 S1: brings with her an air of thought and deep struggle 37 00:02:13,450 --> 00:02:17,209 S1: with life that God hath wrought. Of all our guests 38 00:02:17,210 --> 00:02:20,850 S1: of this, I'm sure she fosters a love of literature. 39 00:02:21,290 --> 00:02:25,209 S1: She makes us think and read and pray. She is 40 00:02:25,210 --> 00:02:27,130 S1: Doctor Rosalie de Rossi. 41 00:02:27,530 --> 00:02:34,370 S2: Rosie. Yay! That's that's how we start this book club off. 42 00:02:34,370 --> 00:02:35,890 S2: What do you think? Is that pretty good? 43 00:02:36,610 --> 00:02:40,769 S3: Well, Chris, I really rendered a bit speechless. And that 44 00:02:40,770 --> 00:02:42,169 S3: doesn't happen much. 45 00:02:42,530 --> 00:02:43,850 S2: Well, you know. 46 00:02:44,889 --> 00:02:48,970 S1: Five minutes thinking about Jewel will bring the words. Rosie, 47 00:02:48,970 --> 00:02:51,570 S1: if you don't know her. Doctor de Rosa is an 48 00:02:51,570 --> 00:02:55,170 S1: adjunct professor of literature at Moody. She's taught here for 49 00:02:55,210 --> 00:02:57,380 S1: nearly 60 years. right? 50 00:02:57,860 --> 00:03:00,419 S3: Yeah. I'm actually done. But yes, 57. 51 00:03:00,660 --> 00:03:06,980 S1: 57 years. And you finished your last class in May or. Yeah. Okay. So. 52 00:03:07,020 --> 00:03:09,180 S1: And in the fall, you're not coming back in the fall. 53 00:03:09,260 --> 00:03:10,100 S3: I am not. 54 00:03:10,380 --> 00:03:10,980 S1: Okay. 55 00:03:11,220 --> 00:03:12,380 S3: Reluctantly not. 56 00:03:12,740 --> 00:03:16,260 S1: That's that's that's that's a, you know, we'll have to 57 00:03:16,260 --> 00:03:18,419 S1: do a whole program on that. Uh, the book on 58 00:03:18,419 --> 00:03:20,740 S1: seduced and unshaken, the Place of Dignity and a Woman's 59 00:03:20,740 --> 00:03:24,460 S1: Choices is our featured resource today, along with Shane. And 60 00:03:24,460 --> 00:03:27,380 S1: look at who she's brought along. I introduced this fellow. 61 00:03:27,380 --> 00:03:29,540 S1: He was a student of yours many moons ago. Right? 62 00:03:29,580 --> 00:03:31,460 S3: He was a student of mine. I can still remember. 63 00:03:31,460 --> 00:03:33,500 S3: He came to my office. He had just arrived, I 64 00:03:33,500 --> 00:03:38,180 S3: think maybe in 13, I can't remember. Is that right, Cole? 13. 65 00:03:38,220 --> 00:03:40,460 S4: Oh, don't ask me that. I think it was. It was. 66 00:03:40,500 --> 00:03:41,620 S3: It was a long time ago. 67 00:03:41,780 --> 00:03:42,500 S4: It's a long time ago. 68 00:03:42,540 --> 00:03:44,580 S3: And he leaned around the door and he said, can 69 00:03:44,580 --> 00:03:47,020 S3: you sign me into your monster? I said, what do 70 00:03:47,020 --> 00:03:50,260 S3: you want? I was being funny. And he said, can 71 00:03:50,260 --> 00:03:53,100 S3: you sign me into your monster lit class? And then 72 00:03:53,100 --> 00:03:56,190 S3: he became my T a and was my TA for 73 00:03:56,190 --> 00:03:59,470 S3: almost three years, and we have been very good friends 74 00:03:59,470 --> 00:04:03,830 S3: since then, transcended the student teacher relationship and gone into friendship. 75 00:04:03,830 --> 00:04:06,590 S3: And as he's traveled around the country, he's a nomad. 76 00:04:06,630 --> 00:04:07,870 S4: This is true. This is true. 77 00:04:08,710 --> 00:04:12,470 S1: Studied at Moody and Dallas Theological Seminary and now is 78 00:04:12,470 --> 00:04:16,190 S1: assistant director of online and non-traditional learning at Corban University 79 00:04:16,190 --> 00:04:20,710 S1: and assistant professor of theology. You write extensively about theology 80 00:04:20,710 --> 00:04:23,589 S1: and pop culture, and this is one of the books. 81 00:04:23,589 --> 00:04:26,070 S1: Shane is one of the books that you teach, right? Cole. 82 00:04:26,830 --> 00:04:29,350 S4: Correct. Inherited from from Rosie, actually. 83 00:04:29,630 --> 00:04:32,310 S1: Yeah. So it's going to be like old home week. Okay. Rosie, 84 00:04:32,350 --> 00:04:35,430 S1: why did you pick. It's a short book. I read it, 85 00:04:35,430 --> 00:04:38,110 S1: I started it about a week ago and finished it 86 00:04:38,110 --> 00:04:42,029 S1: over the weekend. Very easy to read, but it's deep. 87 00:04:42,029 --> 00:04:43,790 S1: Why did you choose this western? 88 00:04:43,870 --> 00:04:47,109 S3: Well, I think part of it is that it's it. 89 00:04:47,390 --> 00:04:49,790 S3: It was the first book of the book club that 90 00:04:49,790 --> 00:04:52,750 S3: started 21 years ago with Midday Connection, and it was 91 00:04:52,750 --> 00:04:55,110 S3: an important book, and there were people that resisted it 92 00:04:55,110 --> 00:04:58,510 S3: because it's considered technically young adult and wondered why we 93 00:04:58,550 --> 00:05:00,950 S3: were doing it. And, and it is a book that 94 00:05:00,950 --> 00:05:04,790 S3: I think encapsulates the mythic character of Christ in a 95 00:05:04,790 --> 00:05:07,790 S3: cowboy Western and not a Code Western at all. Probably 96 00:05:07,790 --> 00:05:10,950 S3: one of the best Westerns ever written. And it's time. 97 00:05:10,950 --> 00:05:14,030 S3: And I just feel like it was accessible. And it 98 00:05:14,029 --> 00:05:16,270 S3: has so much in it to talk about. And it 99 00:05:16,270 --> 00:05:18,470 S3: just came to me, I suppose, in a vision I 100 00:05:18,470 --> 00:05:19,070 S3: don't know. 101 00:05:19,390 --> 00:05:23,030 S1: And Tammy said on Facebook, I can't believe the first 102 00:05:23,029 --> 00:05:25,510 S1: time I ever heard Rosie was 21 years ago when 103 00:05:25,510 --> 00:05:28,870 S1: you were talking about Shane. My husband watches the movie 104 00:05:28,870 --> 00:05:32,349 S1: every time it's on TV, and I remember everything Rosie 105 00:05:32,390 --> 00:05:35,470 S1: said about it. So that's pretty, pretty tall cotton there 106 00:05:35,470 --> 00:05:35,989 S1: from ten. 107 00:05:36,029 --> 00:05:37,350 S5: Yeah, well. 108 00:05:38,230 --> 00:05:40,150 S3: The movie is an acquired taste. 109 00:05:40,430 --> 00:05:42,830 S1: Yes it is. As a matter of fact, Chris, Chris 110 00:05:42,830 --> 00:05:46,390 S1: has the theme for this. Roll it. Here we go. Shane. Boom. 111 00:05:46,430 --> 00:05:46,750 S1: Here it. 112 00:05:46,750 --> 00:05:47,029 S6: Is. 113 00:05:50,350 --> 00:05:54,839 S7: And now Cole Berget Weigh in. Why? Shane. Cole. 114 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,880 S4: Uh, yeah. For everything Rosie said. And it's interesting. You 115 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,920 S4: had some, some resistance. I encountered some resistance as well 116 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,080 S4: for the reason that it was it was considered a 117 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,800 S4: pulp novel. Oh, wow. Um, and so there was, you know, 118 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,599 S4: not what, what good can can come out of Nazareth, right? Yeah. Yeah. 119 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,760 S4: It's kind of like kind of like that. Um, but I, 120 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,200 S4: you know, I think Shane is, is unique as, as 121 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:25,840 S4: a western because it's, it's not really about winning a gunfight. Right? Right. Um, it's, uh, most, 122 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:31,360 S4: most Westerns tend to celebrate the gunslinger and Shane admires him, 123 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,159 S4: but it also asks what it costs to be him. Uh, 124 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,240 S4: so it's, it's fairly unique as a, a story, and 125 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,840 S4: it has a very bittersweet quality to it that I 126 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,560 S4: think is, uh, unique and very memorable. 127 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,719 S1: There's a lot of longing in here. And I saw 128 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,610 S1: some parallels between this and To Kill a Mockingbird because 129 00:06:51,610 --> 00:06:56,530 S1: the main character, Bob, who's telling basically telling the story is, 130 00:06:56,810 --> 00:07:00,610 S1: is 13. Right? He's he's a he's a young man 131 00:07:00,770 --> 00:07:03,969 S1: growing into, you know, in that in that time. And 132 00:07:04,010 --> 00:07:07,930 S1: this it takes place in 1889, in the summer of 89, 133 00:07:08,570 --> 00:07:11,450 S1: I was a kid barely topping the backboard of father's 134 00:07:11,450 --> 00:07:15,130 S1: old chuck wagon. And there in Wyoming. Is there anything 135 00:07:15,130 --> 00:07:17,170 S1: else we need to know about it? Rosie? 136 00:07:17,210 --> 00:07:19,970 S3: There's a lot. There really is a historical context. One 137 00:07:19,970 --> 00:07:22,290 S3: one interesting thing is that it was his first novel, 138 00:07:22,290 --> 00:07:24,850 S3: and he had never been west of the Mississippi when 139 00:07:24,850 --> 00:07:27,370 S3: he wrote it, which is very funny. He had just 140 00:07:27,370 --> 00:07:29,970 S3: done a lot of research and decided that he didn't 141 00:07:29,970 --> 00:07:32,850 S3: want to write the same old Western. He wanted to 142 00:07:32,850 --> 00:07:35,410 S3: do something new. And it's a mythic story. Of course, 143 00:07:35,410 --> 00:07:40,570 S3: Shane is a Christ type. It's straightforward, mythic, Christ type. But, uh. 144 00:07:41,130 --> 00:07:43,810 S3: And I just lost my train of thought. But, um. 145 00:07:44,130 --> 00:07:47,450 S1: Setting the setting and why where, where it's. 146 00:07:47,490 --> 00:07:50,180 S3: Set in history. So it is. We don't have time 147 00:07:50,180 --> 00:07:52,380 S3: to get into this, but there's a lot of discussion 148 00:07:52,380 --> 00:07:55,220 S3: you can have about this is set solidly in the 149 00:07:55,220 --> 00:07:58,620 S3: situation where the cattlemen and the ranchers go up against 150 00:07:58,620 --> 00:08:02,420 S3: each other, and the cattlemen. Rangers have been very powerful, 151 00:08:02,420 --> 00:08:04,860 S3: and they have ignored the boundaries that have been assigned 152 00:08:04,860 --> 00:08:08,300 S3: to the, the, the, the people coming to farm and 153 00:08:08,300 --> 00:08:11,380 S3: the homesteaders, sorry, the homesteaders. And he comes in like 154 00:08:11,380 --> 00:08:14,460 S3: a savior. There is in history. There was finally a 155 00:08:14,460 --> 00:08:19,180 S3: big shootout and the the homesteaders won the battle and 156 00:08:19,180 --> 00:08:21,580 S3: began to be able to homestead near water without the 157 00:08:21,580 --> 00:08:24,380 S3: danger of the cattlemen coming in to take over and 158 00:08:24,380 --> 00:08:28,060 S3: really oppress them. So that's the historical situation that it's 159 00:08:28,060 --> 00:08:31,900 S3: founded in. And yeah. And it but it introduces him 160 00:08:31,900 --> 00:08:35,020 S3: as a savior. I mean, the opening of this book 161 00:08:35,020 --> 00:08:37,340 S3: is considered one of the great openings he wrote into 162 00:08:37,340 --> 00:08:39,900 S3: the Valley in the summer of 89. I was a 163 00:08:39,900 --> 00:08:43,580 S3: kid then, barely topping the. You read that and it's beautiful. 164 00:08:43,580 --> 00:08:46,780 S3: And it sets him as somebody who seemed unremarkable. But 165 00:08:46,820 --> 00:08:48,780 S3: eyes turned to see him. I mean, I had a 166 00:08:48,780 --> 00:08:51,220 S3: crush on Shane for years, but now he couldn't get 167 00:08:51,260 --> 00:08:53,540 S3: on a horse. You know, that kind of thing. But 168 00:08:53,580 --> 00:08:55,620 S3: I was looking for Shane a lot in my teenage 169 00:08:55,620 --> 00:08:56,940 S3: years when I first read. 170 00:08:57,100 --> 00:08:58,739 S1: Well, and you grew up in 89? 171 00:08:58,940 --> 00:09:01,140 S3: Yeah. Right. Right. I did. I certainly did. 172 00:09:01,420 --> 00:09:05,020 S1: Well, and the proximity of the story to the Civil 173 00:09:05,020 --> 00:09:07,740 S1: War as well, because the war is over in 65. 174 00:09:07,740 --> 00:09:10,620 S1: So this is 14 years down the road and there 175 00:09:10,620 --> 00:09:13,900 S1: are shades of we don't know where he's come from 176 00:09:13,900 --> 00:09:16,620 S1: and what he's seen and what he's done. Right. Cole. 177 00:09:17,580 --> 00:09:19,780 S4: Yeah. I mean, that's kind of one of the defining 178 00:09:19,820 --> 00:09:23,980 S4: traits of, of the characters is that, uh, he, he 179 00:09:24,020 --> 00:09:28,300 S4: sort of seems to come from nowhere. He's quite mysterious, uh, 180 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:31,860 S4: in that way, which is a very, uh, usual trope 181 00:09:31,860 --> 00:09:35,260 S4: in Westerns. Uh, the, the man who emerges from, from 182 00:09:35,260 --> 00:09:38,740 S4: nowhere and his past remains fairly obscure. 183 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:43,300 S1: And every time questions are asked either by Bob or 184 00:09:43,300 --> 00:09:47,510 S1: his dad or his mom, uh, it's Shane just kind 185 00:09:47,510 --> 00:09:51,470 S1: of dodges them. And so the reader is put in there. Rosie, 186 00:09:51,510 --> 00:09:53,190 S1: you have a bunch of questions that you're going to 187 00:09:53,230 --> 00:09:54,750 S1: ask here today, and I want to give you the 188 00:09:54,750 --> 00:09:59,309 S1: phone number. We're talking about Shane. It's Rosie's Book Club 2.0. 189 00:09:59,350 --> 00:10:01,350 S1: We're going to give you the next book that we 190 00:10:01,390 --> 00:10:04,390 S1: are going to read during this hour. So don't you 191 00:10:04,429 --> 00:10:06,790 S1: dare go away. But I want to hear from you. 192 00:10:06,830 --> 00:10:09,510 S1: What was your reaction as you read Shane? Or maybe 193 00:10:09,510 --> 00:10:11,230 S1: you read it a long time ago and you want 194 00:10:11,270 --> 00:10:16,270 S1: to jump in. Eight. Seven. Seven. Five. Four. Eight. Three. Six. Seven. Five. 195 00:10:16,390 --> 00:10:18,390 S1: Join us for the book club today at the radio 196 00:10:18,390 --> 00:10:34,390 S1: backyard fence (877) 548-3675. This is Chris Fabry live. Rosie and 197 00:10:34,390 --> 00:10:39,069 S1: Cole are here for our very first 2.0 Rosie's book club, 198 00:10:39,390 --> 00:10:43,230 S1: and we're doing Shane. This happened on midday connection 21 199 00:10:43,230 --> 00:10:45,880 S1: years ago. And so we're going to start this book 200 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,839 S1: club rendition or edition with the same book. And if 201 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,240 S1: you haven't read it, listen, you're going to want to 202 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,240 S1: read it. Yeah, there will be spoilers here, but I 203 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,480 S1: think it'll bring you into the story even more so. 204 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:00,480 S1: And if you have, if you've read it and you 205 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,800 S1: want to give feedback or you haven't read it, you 206 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:10,360 S1: have a question 8775, 483675 is our number. Rosie there, um, 207 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,920 S1: there is this question of a good man because Bob 208 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,319 S1: looks at his dad as a good man. I think his, 209 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,319 S1: his mom and dad are good parents, but there's something 210 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,280 S1: different about Shane. So take me into what a good 211 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:26,000 S1: man is. 212 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,920 S3: Well, for one thing, one of the one of the 213 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:34,360 S3: really beautiful things is that Shane never does anything to 214 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,240 S3: be superior or upstage the mother and the father and 215 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,520 S3: especially the father. He because because Joe is a really 216 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,800 S3: good man and don't miss the the connection. Joe and 217 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,920 S3: Mary and Joseph and Mary. I mean, it's all there and. 218 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,080 S3: But there is something about Shane. Of course, that is 219 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,400 S3: transcendent and he never, ever. He's mythic. He's not he's 220 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,320 S3: not a he's not a Jesus redivivus. Which means Jesus 221 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,679 S3: is in the story, but he's he's a mythic Christ type, 222 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,200 S3: but he's he, for one thing, he disciples and he 223 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,000 S3: disciples beautifully. And he is the perfect mentor. I'm sure 224 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,280 S3: it's what every young man is looking for. Uh, he 225 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,959 S3: is strong and straight, and he respects Joe. And he 226 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,560 S3: disciples Bob and imparts wisdom. It says he talks like 227 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:25,120 S3: a man because of because of the flashy hardware you're wearing. 228 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,560 S3: Strip it away, shrivel it down to boy size. In 229 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,400 S3: other words, that is a bad man. He's not like that. 230 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,760 S3: He's a man who watches what's going around and around 231 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,760 S3: him and will make his mark. He knew what goes 232 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,520 S3: on in a boy's mind and what can help him. 233 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,970 S3: I love this stay clean inside through the muddy, dirty 234 00:12:44,010 --> 00:12:48,410 S3: years of growing up. He creates disciples, even Chris, when 235 00:12:48,410 --> 00:12:51,530 S3: he has to discipline him and break his arm, he 236 00:12:51,850 --> 00:12:56,650 S3: restores him. He renews him. He reflects pain, sorrow, and delight. 237 00:12:56,650 --> 00:13:00,370 S3: He's not stoic. He's strong and he's silent. And there 238 00:13:00,410 --> 00:13:04,569 S3: are things he never says, but he's not stoic. He's organic. 239 00:13:04,690 --> 00:13:07,010 S3: We're talking. He talks about how he's at one with 240 00:13:07,010 --> 00:13:11,530 S3: his horse and his gun. He has absolute certainty. Uh, 241 00:13:11,530 --> 00:13:14,130 S3: he know he can't stay at the end as a killer. 242 00:13:14,130 --> 00:13:16,610 S3: He must go alone and unaccompanied. And of course, we'll 243 00:13:16,610 --> 00:13:20,650 S3: talk later about his relationship to Marion, but there's just 244 00:13:20,650 --> 00:13:23,410 S3: utter goodness in him and relationship. One of the things 245 00:13:23,410 --> 00:13:25,250 S3: I love is that he not only. And we can 246 00:13:25,250 --> 00:13:27,490 S3: go to the stump scene at any time, he not 247 00:13:27,490 --> 00:13:31,130 S3: only helps Joe remove the stump. The one thing that 248 00:13:31,130 --> 00:13:34,890 S3: Joe couldn't get on top of, but he also helps 249 00:13:35,010 --> 00:13:38,250 S3: Marion get over. Having burned the pie and notices the 250 00:13:38,250 --> 00:13:40,170 S3: ribbons on her hat. 251 00:13:40,210 --> 00:13:40,770 S7: Yes. 252 00:13:41,130 --> 00:13:44,340 S3: That is such a wonderful detail. I mean, you know, 253 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:48,340 S3: women today are happy for the guy in Twilight, which, yeah, 254 00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:50,060 S3: we're not even going to go there. 255 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:52,380 S1: What he he's all sparkly. 256 00:13:52,420 --> 00:13:53,100 S3: He's all sparkle. 257 00:13:53,260 --> 00:13:56,780 S1: The thing about this, the thing about him is about 258 00:13:56,780 --> 00:14:00,780 S1: Shane is he doesn't he's like, he doesn't have to 259 00:14:00,820 --> 00:14:04,780 S1: prove anything to anybody, right? He's. His gun is kind 260 00:14:04,820 --> 00:14:08,020 S1: of hidden, rolled up in his. It never comes out 261 00:14:08,020 --> 00:14:10,699 S1: until he needs it, right? Cole. Is that true? 262 00:14:11,420 --> 00:14:15,220 S4: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that's interesting about 263 00:14:15,220 --> 00:14:19,380 S4: his character is that he doesn't really invent the legend 264 00:14:19,380 --> 00:14:20,900 S4: about himself. Right. 265 00:14:20,940 --> 00:14:21,260 S3: I love. 266 00:14:21,260 --> 00:14:25,060 S4: That. Um, he he doesn't have to others do that 267 00:14:25,060 --> 00:14:28,140 S4: for him. And there's a kind of quietness to his 268 00:14:28,140 --> 00:14:32,100 S4: character that suggests he understands both his strengths, but also 269 00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:36,260 S4: as a person, his own failures. Um, and that's something 270 00:14:36,260 --> 00:14:39,380 S4: that we can get into. But, but Shane as a, 271 00:14:39,420 --> 00:14:45,780 S4: as a character. He. He possesses a kind of tremendous power, 272 00:14:45,980 --> 00:14:51,860 S4: and everyone recognizes it right away from Joe to Marion. Um. 273 00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:55,740 S1: And even and even when when, you know, I know 274 00:14:55,740 --> 00:14:57,940 S1: you said that there's not a gunfight, but there is 275 00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:05,980 S1: even in that scene, you see, um, the, the, the 276 00:15:06,020 --> 00:15:09,660 S1: bad guy move back and to say, well, I'm not 277 00:15:09,660 --> 00:15:12,140 S1: here for you. I'm here for the other guy because 278 00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:16,260 S1: he is caught short by Shane's presence. Right? 279 00:15:17,340 --> 00:15:21,620 S4: Yeah. And that's, that's what's interesting about this particular, uh, 280 00:15:22,180 --> 00:15:25,980 S4: version of that trope, right? Is that it's not actually 281 00:15:25,980 --> 00:15:30,020 S4: about the gunfight itself. There's a lot more going on 282 00:15:30,020 --> 00:15:34,180 S4: in that scene, um, than, than just, you know, the, 283 00:15:34,180 --> 00:15:38,340 S4: the traditional showdown. Yeah. Um, and there's a lot of, uh, 284 00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:41,390 S4: I guess what you'd call it in fiction status at 285 00:15:41,390 --> 00:15:43,070 S4: work between the two characters. 286 00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:43,830 S7: Yeah. 287 00:15:43,870 --> 00:15:46,350 S1: Did Jack Schaefer know what he was doing when he 288 00:15:46,350 --> 00:15:49,070 S1: did this? Rosie. You know, if he's if he got 289 00:15:49,110 --> 00:15:52,670 S1: Joe and Mary and Joseph and Mary. Did he have 290 00:15:52,670 --> 00:15:53,869 S1: that in his mind? 291 00:15:54,070 --> 00:15:56,870 S3: How could he not have? I mean, there is a 292 00:15:56,910 --> 00:16:02,750 S3: Gethsemane experience. There's a he he's there's a Philippians. Uh, 293 00:16:02,750 --> 00:16:04,990 S3: what do you call it? Kenosis experience. He takes off 294 00:16:04,990 --> 00:16:07,310 S3: his clothes. He dons the clothes of the farmer. He 295 00:16:07,310 --> 00:16:11,070 S3: puts away his gun. It's all there. Uh, and then 296 00:16:11,070 --> 00:16:12,990 S3: he leaves the Holy Spirit at the end. 297 00:16:13,310 --> 00:16:13,670 S1: Mhm. 298 00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:14,670 S3: To guide them. 299 00:16:14,670 --> 00:16:17,950 S1: And he's going to be in you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 300 00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:21,310 S1: So I'm struggling because there's somebody who's listening right now 301 00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:23,430 S1: is like, don't give me everything. Well, this is what 302 00:16:23,470 --> 00:16:25,510 S1: a book club is. You've read the book and you're 303 00:16:25,510 --> 00:16:27,790 S1: going to comment about it like Rita is going to 304 00:16:27,790 --> 00:16:30,190 S1: do in North Carolina. Rita, why did you call today? 305 00:16:32,270 --> 00:16:34,950 S8: Hi. Thanks for having me. Um, you know, it was funny. 306 00:16:34,950 --> 00:16:36,870 S8: I'm so glad to hear you say that it was 307 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,200 S8: Shane's a Christ like figure because I thought of that too. 308 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,480 S8: And I was like, am I crazy? But I just 309 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:46,080 S8: love the way that Shane made Bob right away feel, 310 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,080 S8: even though he was a little boy. And he's just 311 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,280 S8: a little boy in that scene opening kind of scene 312 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,440 S8: that he made him feel like a man right away. 313 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,360 S8: And that I love the way that Jo welcomed him 314 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,800 S8: and was kind to him. And I, as you were talking, 315 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,960 S8: I was thinking about later when he like Debilitates Jo 316 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,879 S8: so he could go fight that fight. God has to 317 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,200 S8: do that to us sometimes to just save us from ourselves. 318 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,439 S1: You mean to empower him to do what he needs 319 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,320 S1: to do? That's one of the things that Shane did. 320 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:21,280 S1: Is that what you're saying? 321 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,760 S8: Yeah. I mean, yeah, because, you know, in the end, 322 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,600 S8: Jo wanted to go with him, but Shane had to, like, 323 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,240 S8: put him out so that it was something that he 324 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,400 S8: had to do himself. Just like Christ had to die 325 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:38,120 S8: for us. 326 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,000 S1: I'd like to ask about that. I'm so glad you 327 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,440 S1: brought that up, Cole. Why? Why was that important? Because 328 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,320 S1: Joe's got a kind of a head wound, and he 329 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,520 S1: stayed at home, but Shane wanted him to stay home. 330 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:53,280 S1: Unpack that for me. 331 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:58,280 S4: Well, I mean, Shane just isn't there to to disrupt. Um, 332 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:03,119 S4: and that's that's one of the key components of his character. Um, 333 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,680 S4: he's not there to, you know, change the status quo 334 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,720 S4: so much as he, he serves the purpose of protecting 335 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,640 S4: and to, to, to bring him would, would disrupt all 336 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,360 S4: of that. That, and Shane just has a certain amount 337 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,600 S4: of confidence in himself and he knows what has to 338 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:23,119 S4: be done. Um, and he, he sort of in a 339 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,600 S4: very sacrificial sense is the person who's willing to get 340 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,479 S4: his hands dirty. Um, so that others don't have to. 341 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:31,600 S7: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. 342 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,930 S1: Yeah. Rita, I'm glad you called today. Uh, here's a question. Uh, 343 00:18:35,930 --> 00:18:38,209 S1: I would like you to ask doctor de Roget to 344 00:18:38,250 --> 00:18:42,210 S1: speak about the significance of Shane having to leave in 345 00:18:42,210 --> 00:18:45,530 S1: the end. Like in Mad Man, when Jesus must leave 346 00:18:45,530 --> 00:18:50,090 S1: Tardis after freeing him from demon possession, why must Jesus 347 00:18:50,410 --> 00:18:52,490 S1: leave the one he saves? 348 00:18:53,450 --> 00:18:55,930 S3: Well, and Nicole may have something to add to this, 349 00:18:55,930 --> 00:18:59,490 S3: but his work is finished once he picks up his 350 00:18:59,490 --> 00:19:03,650 S3: gun again. You sense he's done this before? Uh, he's 351 00:19:03,650 --> 00:19:06,770 S3: he's come into the picture from, you know, from the East. 352 00:19:06,970 --> 00:19:09,250 S3: He's a Christ type. He has saved them from a 353 00:19:09,250 --> 00:19:13,210 S3: specific situation. It is even said it is finished. I mean, 354 00:19:13,210 --> 00:19:17,730 S3: I'm finished now or something like that. And he if 355 00:19:17,730 --> 00:19:21,810 S3: he were to stay around, he would be expected to 356 00:19:21,850 --> 00:19:25,010 S3: continue to do the work he has now left for 357 00:19:25,010 --> 00:19:27,650 S3: those to whom he has brought peace to solve in 358 00:19:27,650 --> 00:19:30,770 S3: their own way. Cole, is there something you could add 359 00:19:30,770 --> 00:19:31,450 S3: to that? 360 00:19:31,490 --> 00:19:34,900 S4: Yeah. I mean, Uh, well, we'll see what you think 361 00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:41,420 S4: about this. Um, but as Shane, he. He's someone who 362 00:19:42,300 --> 00:19:46,460 S4: I don't see as an an allegory for Christ. And 363 00:19:46,460 --> 00:19:49,260 S4: so I, I think as a character, he has limits 364 00:19:49,260 --> 00:19:53,580 S4: that he's aware of. And the burden he bears is, 365 00:19:54,140 --> 00:19:59,180 S4: is the violence itself. And so this community desires peace. 366 00:19:59,780 --> 00:20:02,860 S4: But that peace requires someone who is who is willing 367 00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:07,580 S4: to confront evil directly. And so Shane enters because others cannot. 368 00:20:08,260 --> 00:20:12,180 S4: And one of in some sense, the tragedy of his 369 00:20:12,180 --> 00:20:15,740 S4: character is that he secures a future that he himself 370 00:20:15,740 --> 00:20:19,940 S4: cannot readily inhabit. Um, and this is part of where 371 00:20:19,940 --> 00:20:23,580 S4: his his background being mysterious to Rosie's point, you get 372 00:20:23,580 --> 00:20:25,859 S4: the sense that he's done this kind of thing before 373 00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:28,740 S4: and he doesn't necessarily like it, but he understands that 374 00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:33,060 S4: sometimes a trigger has to be pulled. You know. Um, 375 00:20:33,180 --> 00:20:37,300 S4: and so whereas the settlers inherit peace, Shane inherits a 376 00:20:37,340 --> 00:20:40,220 S4: kind of exile. And so the ending lands in a 377 00:20:40,220 --> 00:20:43,700 S4: way that is, is kind of bittersweet. Um, there's a 378 00:20:43,820 --> 00:20:45,180 S4: touch of tragedy there. 379 00:20:46,580 --> 00:20:47,540 S7: There's also there's. 380 00:20:47,540 --> 00:20:51,419 S1: Also blood on his, on his shirt or his under 381 00:20:51,420 --> 00:20:52,460 S1: his belt, on his. 382 00:20:52,460 --> 00:20:54,379 S3: Forehead, on his side. It's he's. 383 00:20:54,420 --> 00:20:56,020 S1: Wounded. Right. 384 00:20:56,060 --> 00:21:01,659 S3: Yeah. I, I haven't thought it isn't allegorical. It's mythic. 385 00:21:01,660 --> 00:21:05,020 S3: I think that is the separation. Mythic is he's bigger 386 00:21:05,020 --> 00:21:08,740 S3: than life. There's a transcendence there, but it's allegorical would 387 00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:11,139 S3: be one on one like Aslan is in The Lion, 388 00:21:11,140 --> 00:21:12,860 S3: the witch and the wardrobe. Yeah, I think he's not. 389 00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:15,780 S4: He's not Christ in a 1 to 1 allegorical sense, 390 00:21:15,780 --> 00:21:18,220 S4: but he is a mythic redeemer figure. 391 00:21:18,220 --> 00:21:18,780 S3: Yeah. He is. 392 00:21:18,820 --> 00:21:22,220 S4: Yeah. Um, and even biblically speaking. Right. Especially in the 393 00:21:22,220 --> 00:21:26,580 S4: Old Testament, the idea of a redeemer. Uh, there was often, 394 00:21:26,619 --> 00:21:29,340 S4: you know, blood attached to that, a kind of violence 395 00:21:29,340 --> 00:21:31,750 S4: attached to that. So it's just very interesting. 396 00:21:31,790 --> 00:21:34,910 S1: If you're just joining us, that's Col Bridget, Rosalie de rosette. 397 00:21:34,990 --> 00:21:37,910 S1: We're talking about the novel Shane by Jack Schaefer. It 398 00:21:37,910 --> 00:21:41,350 S1: came out in the late 40s, early 50s, I think. 399 00:21:41,390 --> 00:21:45,470 S1: 4949 okay. And, uh, so if you haven't read it yet, 400 00:21:45,470 --> 00:21:48,350 S1: it's not our fault because we told you that we 401 00:21:48,350 --> 00:21:50,669 S1: were going to talk about this here today. Uh, and 402 00:21:50,670 --> 00:21:52,110 S1: we're going to tell you the next book that we're 403 00:21:52,109 --> 00:21:55,429 S1: going to read. You have to stay around for that. Um, 404 00:21:55,430 --> 00:22:01,030 S1: but here's the number (877) 548-3675. Pepsi is on the line. Hi, Pepsi. 405 00:22:01,070 --> 00:22:01,790 S1: Go right ahead. 406 00:22:02,070 --> 00:22:04,350 S9: Hi. How are you? A great day it is. I 407 00:22:04,350 --> 00:22:08,510 S9: was calling because, uh, that picture was brought back up 408 00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:12,990 S9: about 1923. I mean, 2023, not 1923. I wasn't even 409 00:22:12,990 --> 00:22:18,510 S9: born in 1923. But I was glad to comment because 410 00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:21,910 S9: she was a program or a movie or a book. 411 00:22:21,910 --> 00:22:25,230 S9: Either way, that was telling the people how to come 412 00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:29,160 S9: together and cooperate. He didn't upstage the father. He didn't 413 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,880 S9: try to upstage anyone as a special hero, but he 414 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,080 S9: worked together with them to cooperate. Didn't know that this 415 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,399 S9: is a common call. They got to come against their 416 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,320 S9: common enemy, but he brought them together. That they can 417 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,880 S9: conquer this enemy. They can defeat the enemy if they 418 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,080 S9: unite together. And that's the great example of this necessary 419 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,000 S9: right now, even though it's a long time ago. We 420 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,160 S9: need that today in 2026. 421 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,960 S1: Yeah. And it's so easy to get, you know, to 422 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,800 S1: pick the flaw of somebody else and not to see 423 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,120 S1: the big enemy that we have out there, that we 424 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,840 S1: can come together. So there you get the empowerment again, Rosie, 425 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,480 S1: that that Shane fosters that kind of empowerment for the 426 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,480 S1: people to become who they really need to be and 427 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:11,359 S1: want to be. Right. 428 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:17,920 S3: Every one of them. Marion. Bob. Chris. Joe. Yes. He 429 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,160 S3: he sort of gets them over. He gets them over 430 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,000 S3: the hurdle that they can't quite get over and defends 431 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,959 S3: them and then then moves on when they're ready to 432 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,170 S3: do it, although Marion has to really infuse Joe with 433 00:23:30,170 --> 00:23:34,609 S3: a little a little something at the end when Joe's discouraged. Yes, 434 00:23:34,650 --> 00:23:37,090 S3: it's interesting that he picks a woman to be the 435 00:23:37,090 --> 00:23:38,130 S3: encourager there. 436 00:23:39,570 --> 00:23:42,850 S1: Isn't it, though? Yeah. Okay. And there's a there's another 437 00:23:42,890 --> 00:23:45,290 S1: there's something that I picked up in the reading of this, 438 00:23:45,330 --> 00:23:49,410 S1: the last reading that I've done that. And you told 439 00:23:49,410 --> 00:23:52,290 S1: me before the program, we need to talk about this 440 00:23:52,290 --> 00:23:54,970 S1: and we're going to talk about it in the next segment. 441 00:23:55,170 --> 00:23:58,370 S1: But there is there's something that I picked up as 442 00:23:58,369 --> 00:24:04,050 S1: I'm reading through this for Bob, the young boy for Joe, 443 00:24:04,090 --> 00:24:09,330 S1: the dad, for Marion, the mom. It's as if Shane 444 00:24:09,530 --> 00:24:14,250 S1: makes them come alive. It makes them see more of 445 00:24:14,290 --> 00:24:16,930 S1: who they were made to be so that they can 446 00:24:16,930 --> 00:24:21,890 S1: step into that rather than retreating. And, uh, you know, 447 00:24:21,930 --> 00:24:25,610 S1: being just the status quo. Cole, do you agree with that? 448 00:24:26,050 --> 00:24:29,970 S4: Yeah. Shane himself is a kind of revelation in the story. 449 00:24:30,010 --> 00:24:33,850 S4: Not not so much of of divinity, but it's more 450 00:24:33,850 --> 00:24:37,129 S4: like nobility. Right. Um, like a lot of Christ figures 451 00:24:37,130 --> 00:24:43,169 S4: in literature, he awakens desire in others for something. Um, that's, 452 00:24:43,170 --> 00:24:45,330 S4: that's higher than themselves. And you see that in the 453 00:24:45,330 --> 00:24:49,209 S4: stump scene and, and others like it. Uh, but yeah, 454 00:24:49,250 --> 00:24:50,050 S4: that's very true. 455 00:24:50,850 --> 00:24:51,609 S1: Rosie. What do you. 456 00:24:51,609 --> 00:24:51,810 S5: Think? 457 00:24:51,850 --> 00:24:55,050 S3: Oh yes. That's well said. He awakens desire and he's 458 00:24:55,050 --> 00:24:58,850 S3: the revelation of nobility. He's, he's the heroic. He's the 459 00:24:58,850 --> 00:25:01,210 S3: sense of the heroic. Sometimes I don't think we'd know 460 00:25:01,210 --> 00:25:03,090 S3: a hero if we fell over when we. I can't 461 00:25:03,090 --> 00:25:05,770 S3: believe who we call heroes today. It really doesn't take 462 00:25:05,770 --> 00:25:10,250 S3: a whole lot, you know, a good tattoo, etc. but, uh, it, uh, 463 00:25:10,609 --> 00:25:12,570 S3: just an opinion here. Uh. 464 00:25:13,410 --> 00:25:15,970 S10: That's why we love you, Rosie. That's why we love you. 465 00:25:15,970 --> 00:25:16,850 S10: It's your opinion. 466 00:25:17,090 --> 00:25:20,210 S4: And Rosie is is right about that, though. 467 00:25:20,930 --> 00:25:24,899 S1: We're talking about Shane by Jack Schaefer. It's, uh, Chris 468 00:25:24,940 --> 00:25:29,100 S1: Fabry live the radio backyard Fence, Rosie's Book Club 2.0. 469 00:25:29,460 --> 00:25:32,020 S1: If you go to Chris Fabry live.org. You'll see more 470 00:25:32,020 --> 00:25:35,860 S1: about Rosie and Cole. She has more questions. I have 471 00:25:35,859 --> 00:25:41,859 S1: more folks on the line. (877) 548-3675. And we're going to 472 00:25:41,859 --> 00:25:44,060 S1: tell you the next book that we're going to read 473 00:25:44,060 --> 00:25:46,500 S1: before we end today. You guys stay with us. Go 474 00:25:46,500 --> 00:26:03,300 S1: to Chris Fabry live dot ORG. More straight ahead. Rosie's 475 00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:06,340 S1: book club is back. Cole Bridget is with us today, 476 00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:10,340 S1: a former student of Rosie's who now teaches and Rosie's 477 00:26:10,340 --> 00:26:12,739 S1: book on seducing Unshaken the Place of Dignity in a 478 00:26:12,740 --> 00:26:16,500 S1: Woman's Choices at our featured resource, along with Shane by 479 00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:20,460 S1: Jack Schaefer. Just finished the book. Actually, I finished it 480 00:26:20,460 --> 00:26:26,669 S1: last night, I Pulled, uh, you know, several chapters a day. 481 00:26:26,990 --> 00:26:30,990 S1: And it was, it was really, really fun. Skeeter also 482 00:26:30,990 --> 00:26:33,630 S1: has read that book in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Skeeter, what do 483 00:26:33,630 --> 00:26:34,669 S1: you say about Shane? 484 00:26:35,869 --> 00:26:40,550 S11: I really love this book because Shane did something for 485 00:26:40,550 --> 00:26:45,310 S11: them that they could not do themselves. They needed Shane, uh, 486 00:26:45,310 --> 00:26:48,909 S11: for what he provided for who he was. Uh, it 487 00:26:48,910 --> 00:26:51,550 S11: was just an amazing book I was so excited about 488 00:26:51,550 --> 00:26:55,149 S11: today because when you all announced it, I went out, 489 00:26:55,150 --> 00:26:57,149 S11: I had the book within a couple of days. I 490 00:26:57,150 --> 00:27:01,070 S11: found it at Barnes and Nobles and, uh, so I 491 00:27:01,070 --> 00:27:06,869 S11: just really enjoyed the book. I'm really enjoying the commentary today. And, uh, 492 00:27:07,470 --> 00:27:11,910 S11: today is another significant day. It's, uh, the anniversary that 493 00:27:11,910 --> 00:27:17,109 S11: my dad flew his first mission over Europe as a 494 00:27:17,109 --> 00:27:17,830 S11: tail gunner. 495 00:27:18,190 --> 00:27:19,109 S5: Wow, wow. 496 00:27:19,150 --> 00:27:20,550 S11: In World War two. 497 00:27:20,750 --> 00:27:21,030 S5: Wow. 498 00:27:21,109 --> 00:27:24,950 S1: Talk about history. Look at that. Well, we salute your 499 00:27:24,950 --> 00:27:27,709 S1: dad and his service. Okay, Skeeter, you got to tell 500 00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:29,189 S1: me because I did the same thing. I went to 501 00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:32,869 S1: the bookstore. Where did you find Shane? Where do you 502 00:27:32,869 --> 00:27:34,429 S1: remember what section it was in? 503 00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:40,070 S11: Uh, I, I can't remember, but they only had one copy. 504 00:27:40,350 --> 00:27:40,790 S1: Bingo. 505 00:27:40,830 --> 00:27:43,670 S11: And I called around. I called around several places, and 506 00:27:43,670 --> 00:27:45,270 S11: I found it at Barnes and Nobles. 507 00:27:45,470 --> 00:27:48,710 S1: Same here. I went there and we looked. I had 508 00:27:48,710 --> 00:27:50,670 S1: a fellow with me because, you know, I'd been there 509 00:27:50,670 --> 00:27:53,590 S1: all day. It was in Young Adult, like you were 510 00:27:53,590 --> 00:27:56,550 S1: saying a little earlier. Really? Yeah. It was way back 511 00:27:56,550 --> 00:27:58,310 S1: in the in the corner over there. I would never 512 00:27:58,310 --> 00:28:00,710 S1: have found it. Even when we got to the right place, 513 00:28:00,710 --> 00:28:03,030 S1: it was hard to find. So, Rosie, what do you 514 00:28:03,109 --> 00:28:06,389 S1: what do you think about him being able to give them, 515 00:28:06,590 --> 00:28:08,870 S1: you know, the freedom at the end that they needed 516 00:28:08,869 --> 00:28:10,670 S1: that they couldn't get themselves. 517 00:28:11,950 --> 00:28:17,350 S3: Well, Marion I think comes is taken very seriously as 518 00:28:17,350 --> 00:28:21,120 S3: a woman and she probably hasn't had a lot of that. Even, 519 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,919 S3: you know, her husband is a really good man, but 520 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,800 S3: he gives her full attention. She's a woman of great character. 521 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:33,040 S3: Bob is made a man as a young man by him. 522 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,560 S3: And then Joe, I just think, is given the courage 523 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,000 S3: to go on now and defend the, the, the homesteading, uh, 524 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,680 S3: plot that he has been given. And they're just, they're 525 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,200 S3: just inch into themselves because of this presence over them. 526 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:55,480 S1: Yes. And you can see the transformation though it's slow coal. It, 527 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:56,680 S1: it happens. Right? 528 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,760 S4: Yeah. It's, it's the kind of thing you, um, you, 529 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,120 S4: one of the admirable qualities about Shane is that he, 530 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,360 S4: he only fights when it becomes unavoidable. Um and so 531 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,720 S4: it gives the impression of this, this sort of gradual, 532 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,000 S4: um undoing throughout the story. Yes. 533 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,010 S1: And have having to do what he had to do 534 00:29:20,050 --> 00:29:22,690 S1: at the end. Skeeter, thanks for your call. Okay. When 535 00:29:22,690 --> 00:29:25,970 S1: I read it this time, I picked up and maybe 536 00:29:25,970 --> 00:29:29,209 S1: I'd done this before, but I picked up this tension 537 00:29:29,610 --> 00:29:35,170 S1: between Marion and Shane. It's like she she almost becomes 538 00:29:35,170 --> 00:29:38,050 S1: a little giggly. Not giggly, is it not? But but 539 00:29:38,050 --> 00:29:41,770 S1: she lightens up. She brightens up when Shane comes in 540 00:29:41,770 --> 00:29:46,010 S1: and I'm thinking, wait a minute, Shane. He's not her 541 00:29:46,010 --> 00:29:51,330 S1: suitor here. But there is this attraction that she has 542 00:29:51,330 --> 00:29:53,890 S1: to him as well as the the other men in 543 00:29:53,890 --> 00:29:57,810 S1: the story that they either are confronted by him or 544 00:29:57,810 --> 00:30:00,170 S1: they are attracted by him. Talk about that, Rosie. 545 00:30:00,210 --> 00:30:02,890 S3: Yeah, I think it makes everybody nervous. I think people 546 00:30:02,930 --> 00:30:05,450 S3: realize that that's going on, but they kind of go 547 00:30:05,450 --> 00:30:08,210 S3: into denial about it. My students go, well, I just 548 00:30:08,210 --> 00:30:11,090 S3: had to not think about that because that maybe that 549 00:30:11,090 --> 00:30:13,530 S3: can't be true. And it's certainly not a subject that 550 00:30:13,530 --> 00:30:16,650 S3: comes up in the pulpit that Eros does not have 551 00:30:16,650 --> 00:30:20,770 S3: to go to erotic it. Erotic has a completely bad 552 00:30:20,770 --> 00:30:25,010 S3: connotation in today's society. It's always connected to pornography or erotica. 553 00:30:25,450 --> 00:30:30,010 S3: Eros is a healthy word that means transcendence, which does 554 00:30:30,010 --> 00:30:33,530 S3: have to do with our, in a way, with our sexuality, 555 00:30:33,530 --> 00:30:36,650 S3: in an indirect way. It's not at all hard to 556 00:30:36,690 --> 00:30:39,890 S3: believe that anybody, any woman in the presence of a very, 557 00:30:39,890 --> 00:30:43,770 S3: very good man who has integrity, who has character, who 558 00:30:43,770 --> 00:30:49,210 S3: has nobility, and who is so in charge and so 559 00:30:49,210 --> 00:30:52,890 S3: well spoken and pays attention to detail, is going to 560 00:30:52,930 --> 00:30:56,690 S3: feel something that she may not completely understand. That is 561 00:30:56,690 --> 00:30:59,210 S3: like vaguely like a crush. I always talk about this. 562 00:30:59,210 --> 00:31:02,370 S3: I said, I remember when I was in seminary and 563 00:31:02,370 --> 00:31:04,450 S3: in doing my PhD, that I would come out of 564 00:31:04,450 --> 00:31:07,890 S3: certain classes feeling like I had a crush on somebody. And, 565 00:31:08,090 --> 00:31:11,370 S3: and it was because everything in my spirit, in my 566 00:31:11,370 --> 00:31:14,930 S3: spirit and my brain was affected. It was together with 567 00:31:14,930 --> 00:31:17,900 S3: my body. It was all together. I felt this this 568 00:31:17,940 --> 00:31:21,540 S3: kind of power. And I think one of the problems 569 00:31:21,580 --> 00:31:24,500 S3: today is we don't talk about that as part of transcendence. 570 00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:28,620 S3: And then people equate it to sexuality and make terrible 571 00:31:28,620 --> 00:31:33,980 S3: mistakes and don't guard themselves from the wrong implications of that. 572 00:31:33,980 --> 00:31:37,620 S3: So clearly, Shane and Marian are attracted to each other. 573 00:31:37,940 --> 00:31:41,580 S3: But I wrote to somebody in a letter that Marian 574 00:31:41,580 --> 00:31:44,740 S3: is drawn to Shane. He takes her seriously, even her 575 00:31:44,740 --> 00:31:48,060 S3: women's interests. He talks to her. She's an important part 576 00:31:48,060 --> 00:31:50,500 S3: of the story. This is not Code Western women. I 577 00:31:50,540 --> 00:31:53,060 S3: watch my share of Westerns. As you all know, I'm 578 00:31:53,060 --> 00:31:56,500 S3: in love with The Rifleman. We'll leave that at that. Likewise, 579 00:31:56,500 --> 00:31:59,300 S3: she is a woman of intelligence and character, so he 580 00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:03,020 S3: may be drawn to her. Nevertheless, he is safe. And 581 00:32:03,020 --> 00:32:05,940 S3: so not once does he pick up on anything wrong, 582 00:32:06,220 --> 00:32:09,660 S3: exploit her feelings, or cause her to be dissatisfied with 583 00:32:09,660 --> 00:32:12,940 S3: her marriage. On the contrary, he assures her that his 584 00:32:12,940 --> 00:32:16,230 S3: having to knock Joe out does not make Joe less 585 00:32:16,230 --> 00:32:18,950 S3: of a man. He also does what he does for 586 00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:23,470 S3: both Joe and Marion, feeling perhaps very drawn to him 587 00:32:23,470 --> 00:32:26,310 S3: and confused by it. She sort of tests the waters 588 00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:28,710 S3: at one point to try to find out what he's feeling. 589 00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:32,950 S3: In the end, when Shane answers, he doesn't put her 590 00:32:32,950 --> 00:32:36,270 S3: down or deny it. He. He lets her know that. 591 00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:39,270 S3: Of course, as a man, he knows that she's a woman. 592 00:32:39,630 --> 00:32:42,870 S3: He cannot split his nature and deny his deep feeling 593 00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:46,470 S3: for her. But that ends the conversation, and Joe and 594 00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:50,270 S3: Marion's relationship is left healthy and intact and perhaps better. 595 00:32:51,510 --> 00:32:53,790 S3: I mean, this is an amazing thing. It's. 596 00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:54,110 S5: Cole. 597 00:32:54,110 --> 00:32:55,190 S1: What do you say about that? 598 00:32:55,230 --> 00:32:58,350 S4: Yeah. What he's talking about is, is Eros in what 599 00:32:58,350 --> 00:33:01,710 S4: we would call a classical sense, particularly the way Plato 600 00:33:01,710 --> 00:33:05,190 S4: and later Christian thinkers would would use the term. This, um, 601 00:33:06,190 --> 00:33:08,830 S4: Rosi calls it transcendence. I think you could also call 602 00:33:08,830 --> 00:33:13,830 S4: it just a profound longing toward, um, beauty and goodness 603 00:33:13,830 --> 00:33:20,270 S4: toward completion. Something like that. And, um, Marion's relationship with 604 00:33:20,270 --> 00:33:25,590 S4: Shane is, is not romantic competition with Joe, but it's 605 00:33:25,630 --> 00:33:27,950 S4: admiration for a kind of greatness. She is drawn to 606 00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:33,990 S4: him because he embodies qualities that are, in fact, genuinely admirable. Mhm. Um, 607 00:33:34,030 --> 00:33:37,190 S4: and what's interesting, uh, is the response Rosie was talking 608 00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:40,030 S4: about the way her students will sometimes take it. It's funny, 609 00:33:40,030 --> 00:33:42,870 S4: I actually get students who are disappointed that they don't 610 00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:45,310 S4: end up together at the end of the story. I 611 00:33:45,310 --> 00:33:50,830 S4: get that all the time. And it leads to some interesting, uh, conversations. 612 00:33:50,830 --> 00:33:53,230 S4: But all that to say in this sense, I think 613 00:33:53,230 --> 00:33:57,790 S4: the attraction, it's not that it is erotic specifically, but, 614 00:33:57,790 --> 00:34:01,630 S4: but it's almost aspirational. It's a kind of aspirational attraction. 615 00:34:01,870 --> 00:34:08,710 S1: How do you then, uh, navigate the comparison that Marion 616 00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:12,600 S1: wants Joe to be? Shane. I wish he were more 617 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,520 S1: like Shane. How does she not go that direction with 618 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,080 S1: that longing? Rosie. 619 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,720 S3: Does it say that in the story that she should know? 620 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,360 S1: I'm reading into it, I think. 621 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,080 S3: Oh, that's really interesting. 622 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,920 S1: That's how that's how people would in our society today. 623 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,680 S1: It's like, if you don't like your husband or you 624 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,600 S1: don't like your wife, I wish you were more like 625 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,040 S1: so and so, and you idealize them and you have 626 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,680 S1: no idea what they really like. You look at your 627 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,040 S1: comparing and it's like, she doesn't do that. 628 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,120 S3: I think that because Shane handles it so well and 629 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,120 S3: always shows admiration for Bob. In fact, at one place 630 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:52,879 S3: it says he was doing it for both of them. 631 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,880 S3: He looked at both of them. He didn't separate it 632 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,239 S3: because he never does anything wrong and because he, Bob 633 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,600 S3: is a solidly good man. And in fact, at one 634 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,240 S3: point after she has felt this and he has handled 635 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,080 S3: it wrong, she turns back to her husband and she 636 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,250 S3: asks him to hold her and kiss her. I think 637 00:35:12,250 --> 00:35:13,130 S3: that's remarkable. 638 00:35:13,170 --> 00:35:13,650 S5: Yes. 639 00:35:13,690 --> 00:35:16,290 S3: Yes. So I think it's I think about today we 640 00:35:16,290 --> 00:35:20,290 S3: have this explosion of immorality in the pulpit and in leadership. 641 00:35:20,290 --> 00:35:22,730 S3: You only have to read certain websites to find that out. 642 00:35:22,930 --> 00:35:26,969 S3: It's like, uh, anybody today doing anything indiscreet ought to 643 00:35:26,969 --> 00:35:29,930 S3: be scared because somebody's going to come after you. But you, 644 00:35:30,010 --> 00:35:33,530 S3: you see all the time that it's called grooming. And, 645 00:35:33,770 --> 00:35:37,410 S3: and there was intent in the leader he had does 646 00:35:37,410 --> 00:35:41,450 S3: not know himself. He has not guarded his heart. That's 647 00:35:41,450 --> 00:35:43,890 S3: what a good man does. They guard their heart. I 648 00:35:43,930 --> 00:35:46,330 S3: have known my whole life because I was a single 649 00:35:46,330 --> 00:35:49,810 S3: woman at Moody, for, you know, these 4000 years I. 650 00:35:49,850 --> 00:35:52,330 S3: I grew up here, and there were good men around 651 00:35:52,330 --> 00:35:57,210 S3: me all the time. And you knew that. There's always 652 00:35:57,210 --> 00:36:00,450 S3: that moment of a connection that you just don't follow. 653 00:36:00,730 --> 00:36:03,129 S3: And when people know the Lord and they're good men, 654 00:36:03,130 --> 00:36:05,969 S3: I've always known which men you can trust and which 655 00:36:05,969 --> 00:36:10,049 S3: you can't. And it's somebody utterly He committed to the Lord. 656 00:36:10,050 --> 00:36:13,970 S3: And it's not somebody who is is, uh, uh, doing 657 00:36:13,969 --> 00:36:17,810 S3: anything cruel to put you aside. You. My father was 658 00:36:17,810 --> 00:36:20,410 S3: that kind of a man. He you knew he was trustworthy. 659 00:36:20,770 --> 00:36:25,450 S3: So I think it comes out of Shane that she 660 00:36:25,450 --> 00:36:29,930 S3: is never in any sense separated from her husband, Bob. 661 00:36:30,170 --> 00:36:34,770 S1: Yes. In fact, it attracts her more to her husband. 662 00:36:34,810 --> 00:36:35,130 S3: Yeah, it. 663 00:36:35,130 --> 00:36:35,370 S5: Does. 664 00:36:35,410 --> 00:36:38,410 S1: That, you know. And, uh, I wonder if, uh, I 665 00:36:38,410 --> 00:36:41,370 S1: don't know if you two have seen open range. I 666 00:36:41,410 --> 00:36:43,810 S1: watch it. Yeah, I've watched a lot. And there's a 667 00:36:43,810 --> 00:36:48,489 S1: scene where Robert Duvall and Kevin Costner are in the mercantile, 668 00:36:48,810 --> 00:36:52,690 S1: and he. He wants a chocolate bar. Uh, and it's 669 00:36:52,690 --> 00:36:58,250 S1: really expensive. And, uh, Duvall's character starts to chew on this, 670 00:36:58,290 --> 00:37:00,210 S1: you know, crunch the chocolate bar. And he gives the 671 00:37:00,250 --> 00:37:03,330 S1: gives it to the piece of it to the proprietor 672 00:37:03,330 --> 00:37:05,970 S1: who'd never had it before. And he says to him 673 00:37:05,969 --> 00:37:08,899 S1: something like, you know, here this has been right under 674 00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:11,020 S1: your nose all this time. And you never tasted it. 675 00:37:11,540 --> 00:37:15,259 S1: Just like the freedom. And I wonder if that's partly 676 00:37:15,260 --> 00:37:18,940 S1: where they got that from, from Shane. Because it you 677 00:37:18,980 --> 00:37:22,660 S1: had this freedom in your grasp all this time, but 678 00:37:22,660 --> 00:37:26,500 S1: you were too afraid to move toward it. That speaks 679 00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:28,060 S1: to me. Cole, what do you think? 680 00:37:28,940 --> 00:37:33,740 S4: Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, you know, just thinking, thinking 681 00:37:33,739 --> 00:37:37,739 S4: through this, uh, it's not that Shane is a a 682 00:37:37,860 --> 00:37:41,020 S4: better version of of Joe. He is fundamentally just a 683 00:37:41,020 --> 00:37:43,460 S4: different kind of man. And I think Marion as a 684 00:37:43,460 --> 00:37:48,700 S4: character is, is savvy enough that she understands the very 685 00:37:48,700 --> 00:37:53,980 S4: qualities that make Shane admirable, also make him sort of dangerous. 686 00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:58,620 S4: And she understands before Bob does that, Shane sort of 687 00:37:58,660 --> 00:38:03,820 S4: belongs to a world of of violence. And that's where 688 00:38:03,820 --> 00:38:08,110 S4: the Christ type reading becomes so much more interesting because 689 00:38:08,110 --> 00:38:11,390 S4: one of the mistakes people make when discussing Christ figures 690 00:38:11,989 --> 00:38:15,390 S4: is assuming that such figures have to be emotionally detached 691 00:38:15,390 --> 00:38:19,550 S4: or incapable of attraction and affection. But the Gospels clearly 692 00:38:19,550 --> 00:38:22,509 S4: present Christ as deeply relational. People are drawn to him. 693 00:38:22,510 --> 00:38:25,190 S4: Men leave everything to follow him. Women support his ministry. 694 00:38:25,190 --> 00:38:27,509 S4: Crowds gather around him. You know, there's a kind of 695 00:38:27,510 --> 00:38:32,109 S4: magnetic quality to his presence. And it's a kind of 696 00:38:32,110 --> 00:38:35,750 S4: attraction that is is rooted in in beauty and goodness. 697 00:38:35,750 --> 00:38:40,230 S4: And really authority is something that's not talked about enough. But, um, 698 00:38:40,830 --> 00:38:43,870 S4: you know, classical Christianity is often understood this as a 699 00:38:43,910 --> 00:38:47,630 S4: longing for the good. It's think of, uh, Augustine's idea, 700 00:38:47,670 --> 00:38:49,790 S4: you know, the heart is restless until it rests in God, 701 00:38:49,790 --> 00:38:50,510 S4: that kind of thing. 702 00:38:51,110 --> 00:38:53,630 S1: This is what will happen if you read a good 703 00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:55,870 S1: book and then you talk about it. And that's why 704 00:38:55,870 --> 00:38:59,029 S1: I wanted to bring the book club back. Rosie, after 20, 705 00:38:59,830 --> 00:39:02,870 S1: however long it was when when this ended, it started 706 00:39:02,910 --> 00:39:06,840 S1: 21 years ago. And we're talking about Shane. But that 707 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,160 S1: means there are two things that have to happen before 708 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,040 S1: we end today. One, we got to get to the stump, 709 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,880 S1: and two, we've got to hear what the next book 710 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,719 S1: is going to be in Rosie's Book Club here on 711 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:22,640 S1: Chris Fabry Live Rosie 2.0. We find out more about 712 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:29,399 S1: her and Cole Berget at Chris fabry.org. Chris fabry.org. The 713 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,960 S1: next book is coming up straight ahead on Moody Radio. 714 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,560 S1: When we announced that Rosie's Book Club was coming back, 715 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,800 S1: Becky said on Facebook, I can't tell you how happy 716 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:55,080 S1: this makes me. Two exclamation points. Just finished reading Shane, 717 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,520 S1: Elaine says. Can't wait to hear the discussion. Thank you 718 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,960 S1: Rosalie and Chris for offering this. Your enthusiasm for the 719 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,760 S1: book piqued my interest and now I am a fan. 720 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,640 S1: I will share it with my book club along with 721 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,839 S1: your insights. That's what happens when you read good books 722 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,799 S1: and you have a conversation about them. But that means 723 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,560 S1: that Rosie said, let's, let's do this quarterly. So once 724 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,359 S1: every three months or so, the next book club will 725 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:26,560 S1: be in September. And Rosie, you have chosen another shorter book. 726 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,360 S1: As I understand it, I've never read this one. Uh, 727 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:30,720 S1: what is our next book? 728 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,000 S3: The next book is even shorter than Shane, so we're 729 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,680 S3: taking you easy, and then we'll move into Dostoyevsky and 730 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,160 S3: kill you. I'm just kidding. 731 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:39,000 S5: And Tolstoy. 732 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,080 S3: Tolstoy. The next book is The Wise Woman, also called 733 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,799 S3: The Lost Princess by George MacDonald, the great 19th century 734 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,919 S3: writer that was so influential in C.S. Lewis's life. In fact, 735 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,160 S3: he quoted and paraphrased George MacDonald a great deal. He 736 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,560 S3: was one of the guides in The Great Divorce. Actually, 737 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:03,610 S3: it's a beautiful study in in the nature of God. God, 738 00:41:03,610 --> 00:41:10,569 S3: Christ slash Christ as both demanding and disciplining us faithfully 739 00:41:10,570 --> 00:41:14,290 S3: and consistently until we can receive grace. And it's done 740 00:41:14,290 --> 00:41:17,730 S3: through the form of two young children who are both 741 00:41:17,730 --> 00:41:23,609 S3: very wayward. One an absolute insufferable brat, the other one 742 00:41:23,610 --> 00:41:28,089 S3: a self-satisfied, complacent little narcissist. Both of them made so 743 00:41:28,090 --> 00:41:31,450 S3: by their parents. One of them does not. We are 744 00:41:31,450 --> 00:41:33,730 S3: not sure how she will do by the end, which 745 00:41:33,730 --> 00:41:37,129 S3: is appropriate. And the figure of God. Christ is in 746 00:41:37,130 --> 00:41:39,450 S3: the form of a woman. That does not mean George 747 00:41:39,450 --> 00:41:42,410 S3: MacDonald thought God was a woman. He did not. He 748 00:41:42,410 --> 00:41:47,570 S3: just chose this female character to operate as a nurturing God. 749 00:41:47,570 --> 00:41:52,010 S3: It is just a beautiful, very important theologically and and 750 00:41:52,050 --> 00:41:53,810 S3: as a great story book. 751 00:41:54,010 --> 00:41:55,130 S5: Do you agree with that, Cole? 752 00:41:55,810 --> 00:41:59,570 S4: Absolutely. George MacDonald is very important, very, very important. 753 00:41:59,810 --> 00:42:00,049 S5: Okay. 754 00:42:00,090 --> 00:42:03,540 S1: So it's the title is The Wise Woman. You may 755 00:42:03,540 --> 00:42:06,859 S1: have it on your bookshelf, but if you don't get it, 756 00:42:06,860 --> 00:42:10,219 S1: read it by September. We'll give you the specific date 757 00:42:10,420 --> 00:42:13,420 S1: when we get closer to that time. But The Wise 758 00:42:13,420 --> 00:42:16,540 S1: Woman by George MacDonald. I can't wait to read it 759 00:42:16,540 --> 00:42:19,060 S1: and then talk about it right here on Rosie's Book Club. 760 00:42:19,180 --> 00:42:21,420 S1: But wait, there's more. We've got to get to the 761 00:42:21,420 --> 00:42:26,219 S1: stump coal. It happens right at the beginning of the novel, 762 00:42:26,620 --> 00:42:31,460 S1: where Shane helps Joe with the stump and this thing 763 00:42:31,460 --> 00:42:34,660 S1: that is around his property that he can't. He's been 764 00:42:34,660 --> 00:42:36,700 S1: trying hard to get rid of, but he can't do it. 765 00:42:36,739 --> 00:42:38,739 S1: Why is the stump so important? 766 00:42:39,180 --> 00:42:41,980 S4: Yeah. On the surface, it's a really simple scene. Joe 767 00:42:42,020 --> 00:42:45,380 S4: has been trying to remove this this massive tree stump 768 00:42:45,380 --> 00:42:48,299 S4: from his property. And it's it's very stubborn. It's very 769 00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:51,580 S4: deeply rooted. And, you know, one person's not going to 770 00:42:51,580 --> 00:42:55,020 S4: accomplish it. And so Shane joins him and together they 771 00:42:55,020 --> 00:42:57,900 S4: get it out of the ground. And Schaefer spends an 772 00:42:57,900 --> 00:43:03,060 S4: enormous amount of attention on this scene. Um, for several reasons, 773 00:43:03,060 --> 00:43:07,460 S4: I think. Um, first among them, I think it's meant 774 00:43:07,460 --> 00:43:11,620 S4: to just show Shane's desire to belong because before that moment, 775 00:43:11,660 --> 00:43:14,700 S4: he's a stranger. Um, you know, and we've talked about 776 00:43:14,700 --> 00:43:17,620 S4: that he arrives from nowhere, that kind of thing. And 777 00:43:17,940 --> 00:43:19,940 S4: the stump scene is one of the first times he 778 00:43:19,940 --> 00:43:26,100 S4: participates fully in, in the life of, of that family. Um, 779 00:43:26,100 --> 00:43:30,020 S4: and he's, he's working. And I think that's significant because 780 00:43:30,020 --> 00:43:33,540 S4: the novel wants us to understand that Shane, he, he 781 00:43:33,540 --> 00:43:36,860 S4: doesn't just want to protect civilization as a, as a character. 782 00:43:36,860 --> 00:43:39,700 S4: He wants to participate in it. He enjoys the work. 783 00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:44,060 S4: He takes satisfaction in helping. Obviously, it establishes a model 784 00:43:44,060 --> 00:43:48,379 S4: of masculinity as well, because the strongest image of masculinity 785 00:43:48,380 --> 00:43:50,739 S4: in the book is not a gunfight, but it's. These 786 00:43:50,739 --> 00:43:54,820 S4: two men who are are not rivals in the scene 787 00:43:55,219 --> 00:44:00,350 S4: working together. Um, and there's a sense in which the 788 00:44:00,350 --> 00:44:03,149 S4: stump also is symbolic of the larger conflict. Right. The 789 00:44:03,150 --> 00:44:06,750 S4: resistance of the frontier itself. The settlers are attempting to 790 00:44:06,790 --> 00:44:09,390 S4: transform the wilderness. And the stump is in the way 791 00:44:09,390 --> 00:44:13,030 S4: of that. And so with with Shane helping to remove it, 792 00:44:13,230 --> 00:44:18,069 S4: he's literally helping to create civilization. Um, but all of 793 00:44:18,110 --> 00:44:20,870 S4: that is sort of packed in there as far as 794 00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:23,710 S4: shades of meaning goes. But really, I. 795 00:44:23,710 --> 00:44:25,230 S5: Think the other thing. 796 00:44:25,230 --> 00:44:28,670 S1: Is the bomb goes off. At one point, Bob goes 797 00:44:28,670 --> 00:44:31,270 S1: off and it gets dark and the fireflies or whatever, 798 00:44:31,310 --> 00:44:33,629 S1: you know, he's down, down at the fishing hole or 799 00:44:33,630 --> 00:44:37,989 S1: wherever he is, but he hears the the hatchets. He 800 00:44:38,030 --> 00:44:43,150 S1: hears the axes at that stump. And it doesn't that 801 00:44:43,150 --> 00:44:48,670 S1: show that here's Shane and Joe doing this task alone 802 00:44:48,830 --> 00:44:53,270 S1: by themselves, while others are protected from the the hard, 803 00:44:53,310 --> 00:44:57,000 S1: the hard work of that. They're just tenacious with that, right? 804 00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,120 S4: Absolutely. And that that's the really the tragedy of his character, 805 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,399 S4: his greatest desire is to be the kind of man 806 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,720 S4: who can stay and pull stumps out of the ground 807 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,000 S4: for the rest of his life. The tragedy is that 808 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,799 S4: he can't. But the heroism that is inherent to him 809 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,120 S4: is that he helps make that life possible for others anyway. 810 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,120 S1: What happened Rosie to to Shane at the end when 811 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,640 S1: he goes riding off in the sunset. Where did he go? 812 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,319 S3: We don't know. I think he's he's in a way 813 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,480 S3: we don't even know if he's going to live or die. 814 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,839 S3: He's very, very wounded. But he goes off and you 815 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,800 S3: assume he's going off either to die, this his last 816 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,120 S3: task or to rescue another group? 817 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,919 S1: Yes. Keep keep being himself. Whatever happens to him, he 818 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,719 S1: will be himself. Because he is Shane. And that's how 819 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:45,399 S1: the the book. 820 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:46,400 S3: I am who I am. 821 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:51,080 S1: Yes. And that's what Bob says. Um. He was the 822 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,279 S1: man who wrote into our little valley out of the 823 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,839 S1: heart of the great glowing West. And when his work 824 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,200 S1: was done, rode back whence he had come. And he 825 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,839 S1: was shame. Rosie. Thank you. And tell us again, what 826 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,000 S1: is the name of the next book we're going to read? 827 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,760 S3: The Wise Woman or the Lost Princess, one or the Other, 828 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,200 S3: by George MacDonald. It bears both titles sometimes. 829 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,759 S1: Can't wait. Cole. Hats off to you. Thank you for 830 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,600 S1: doing this today. You come back and see us real soon, okay? 831 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,120 S4: Always a pleasure. Thanks for having me doctor. 832 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,160 S1: Rosalie de Rossi. Oh, I'd love to hear your response 833 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,680 S1: to today's conversation at the back fence. You can do 834 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:29,839 S1: that on Facebook. You can send us an email, all 835 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,520 S1: the information right there@chris.org. Or maybe you want to suggest 836 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,440 S1: a book for us to read together on the book club. 837 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,319 S1: We'll take that as well. Chris Fabry Live is a 838 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,200 S1: production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute. 839 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,120 S1: Our guest tomorrow is the Dead Whisperer herself. Don't miss 840 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:48,320 S1: it right here.