1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,400 S1: Today at the radio backyard fence. She's back. Rosie's back. 2 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:11,760 S1: And I knew as soon as I saw the title 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,080 S1: of the article in a magazine. I don't regularly read that. 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,919 S1: We needed to talk about our topic today, which is 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,320 S1: the end of reading is here. Boy, that sounds ominous, 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,079 S1: doesn't it? Rosie and I both agree there was something 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,320 S1: prophetic about the article, and we're going to talk about 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,440 S1: it straight ahead on the program. From the heart to 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,760 S1: the heart for the heart. Find out more links. The 10 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,960 S1: next book in our book club at the website chris.org. 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:40,920 S1: We thank our team behind the scenes. Ryan McConaughey doing 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,440 S1: all things technical. Trish is our producer. Lisa is in 13 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,519 S1: the chair today. Josh will be answering your calls. And 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,680 S1: since it's Friday. That's right. It's time for the fabulous 15 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,200 S1: fabric Friday. Sigh what does it do Chris I'll tell 16 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,200 S1: you one we oxygenate your blood. Two we get your 17 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,160 S1: endorphins going. Three we raise your serotonin. Level four we 18 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,940 S1: promote lymphatic drainage and five, we stimulate your parasympathetic system. 19 00:01:03,940 --> 00:01:06,340 S1: That's why we call it the five lung languages. We 20 00:01:06,340 --> 00:01:09,700 S1: also stimulate your vagus nerve. We help you release acetylcholine. 21 00:01:09,700 --> 00:01:13,340 S1: And don't you dare forget what it does to cortisol dissipation. 22 00:01:13,380 --> 00:01:15,860 S1: Taking four seconds of air through your nose right now. 23 00:01:16,420 --> 00:01:19,780 S1: Hold it for seconds. And then as you release that 24 00:01:19,780 --> 00:01:21,740 S1: air through your mouth, push on the left side of 25 00:01:21,740 --> 00:01:23,619 S1: your rib cage to get rid of all that bad 26 00:01:23,620 --> 00:01:27,259 S1: carbon dioxide. Give a sigh today for serious works of 27 00:01:27,260 --> 00:01:30,300 S1: literature that we don't read anymore, because they're too long 28 00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:32,819 S1: and too hard to understand. And if you do read them, 29 00:01:32,819 --> 00:01:36,940 S1: good on you. Anything by the Count Leo Tolstoy, including 30 00:01:36,980 --> 00:01:40,580 S1: War and Peace and Anna Karenina. Dostoyevsky. We say his 31 00:01:40,580 --> 00:01:42,820 S1: name a lot, but what do we read? His writing. 32 00:01:42,860 --> 00:01:45,780 S1: How about Victor Hugo? If you think The Hunchback of 33 00:01:45,780 --> 00:01:48,140 S1: Notre Dame is about a football player, you need to 34 00:01:48,140 --> 00:01:51,779 S1: listen to our program today. Charles Dickens is bleak House 35 00:01:51,780 --> 00:01:55,020 S1: too bleak? Is Great Expectations too much to expect us 36 00:01:55,020 --> 00:01:57,940 S1: to read? What is keeping us from diving deeply into 37 00:01:57,940 --> 00:02:02,520 S1: the thoughts of those who've gone before today. I'm Chris Fabry, 38 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,680 S1: live the fabulous Fabry Fridays I brought to you by 39 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,680 S1: the society to preserve the voice and presence of Doctor 40 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,760 S1: Rosalie de rosé. All rights reserved. This hour is going 41 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,240 S1: to fly by so quickly. I want to encourage you. 42 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,480 S1: You just got a copy of this book. Ryan gave 43 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,880 S1: you his copy. Do you have that 100 year? 44 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,040 S2: I have it in front of me and just look 45 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,200 S2: through it and saw so many familiar faces. 46 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:25,800 S3: I know, it's so fun. 47 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,440 S1: We have. All this month we've been talking about Moody 48 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,160 S1: Radio's 100th anniversary, and the book is This is Moody 49 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,440 S1: Radio 100 years of proclaiming the gospel, the faces, the voices, 50 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,359 S1: the people behind the scenes, the story of Moody radio. 51 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,040 S1: It will fascinate young and old. And it's our. Thank you. 52 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,680 S1: But only one more week. July ends next Friday and 53 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,880 S1: the book is going to. Going out the door. You 54 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,120 S1: can still get a copy of it, but not from us. 55 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,480 S1: So jump in the pool, give a one time gift, 56 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:56,720 S1: sign up to become a bank finance partner if you'd like. 57 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,940 S1: Give it a monthly gift. Easiest way to do that. 58 00:02:58,980 --> 00:03:06,220 S1: To the website. chris.org. FABRY. Chris dot ORG. Let us 59 00:03:06,220 --> 00:03:10,260 S1: send you this amazing history of 100 years of Moody Radio. 60 00:03:10,300 --> 00:03:16,780 S1: You can also call our listener line (866) 953-2279 to give 61 00:03:16,780 --> 00:03:23,299 S1: a gift. 86695 Fabri o. Do this before next week 62 00:03:23,700 --> 00:03:26,380 S1: and you will be. You will thank me, I guarantee you. 63 00:03:26,419 --> 00:03:27,419 S1: Don't you think, Rosie? 64 00:03:27,460 --> 00:03:31,060 S2: Yes, absolutely. Very important book. Very handsome. 65 00:03:31,100 --> 00:03:31,460 S3: Book. 66 00:03:31,660 --> 00:03:33,540 S1: It is gorgeous. And it tells a story. All right, 67 00:03:33,540 --> 00:03:36,660 S1: here she is. Doctor Rosalie Rose, a retired professor of 68 00:03:36,660 --> 00:03:40,100 S1: literature at Moody Bible Institute. She's got all these pH. 69 00:03:40,100 --> 00:03:43,180 S1: PhDs and rhetoric and all that kind of stuff, and 70 00:03:43,220 --> 00:03:46,460 S1: featured resources on Seduced and Unshaken, the place of dignity 71 00:03:46,460 --> 00:03:49,860 S1: in a Woman's Choices. Rosie, you do have a connection 72 00:03:49,860 --> 00:03:52,540 S1: with Moody Radio in the late 60s when you came 73 00:03:52,540 --> 00:03:53,900 S1: here as a puppy, right? 74 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,120 S2: It's a very young puppy. Very frisky actually. Yes. I 75 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:04,560 S2: came in 69, hired by radio undeservedly. I didn't know anything. 76 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,280 S2: I had never written a script in my life. But 77 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,760 S2: they did hire. It was a different era. God knew 78 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,200 S2: what was going to happen. And I came in at 79 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,240 S2: $325 a month. Except my father said, call him up 80 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,800 S2: and tell him that your father's a missionary and you 81 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,320 S2: need more. So I got 375 a month, which is 82 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,039 S2: very funny. And I knew a lot of those early people. 83 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,440 S2: I was there till 1975, when I got my master's 84 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,120 S2: degree in English and was hired by another divine, an 85 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,400 S2: undeserved miracle as a faculty member at Moody Bible Institute. 86 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,280 S2: And the rest is history. But yes, I knew Bob Neff. 87 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,920 S2: I knew Chuck came under Chuck Christianson, who was later 88 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:47,599 S2: my chairman in the comm department, Lorene Keitel, Strantz, who 89 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,040 S2: was my boss in continuity. We wrote live continuity. Uh, 90 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,430 S2: I was I knew I knew Bill Pierce, I I 91 00:04:54,430 --> 00:04:58,070 S2: knew Chuck Wagner, I knew Ken Apple, I knew Stan 92 00:04:58,070 --> 00:05:01,470 S2: Ferris was one of the funniest, cleverest people that ever, 93 00:05:01,470 --> 00:05:04,070 S2: I think came on earth. So it was a kind 94 00:05:04,070 --> 00:05:09,350 S2: of a real rambunctious time. I mean, people were strong 95 00:05:09,350 --> 00:05:13,910 S2: voices and they were just great. And so many more 96 00:05:14,110 --> 00:05:16,429 S2: of the people that were on the air. I wrote 97 00:05:16,430 --> 00:05:19,910 S2: more scripts, I wrote live radio, and I wrote more 98 00:05:19,910 --> 00:05:22,589 S2: scripts on peace, love, and joy than the world has 99 00:05:22,589 --> 00:05:24,870 S2: ever dreamed of, and than I ever want to do again. 100 00:05:24,910 --> 00:05:27,470 S1: Wait a minute. So when you say you wrote the 101 00:05:27,470 --> 00:05:28,950 S1: script I wrote, what are you talking about? 102 00:05:28,990 --> 00:05:31,910 S2: I wrote scripts for Chuck Wagner late at night and 103 00:05:31,910 --> 00:05:34,750 S2: for others it did. Late night. I can't remember music 104 00:05:34,750 --> 00:05:37,030 S2: through the night or whatever it was. And then I 105 00:05:37,029 --> 00:05:38,190 S2: wrote Continuity. 106 00:05:38,350 --> 00:05:39,310 S1: Night, which. 107 00:05:39,310 --> 00:05:43,430 S2: Was Night Sounds. Yeah. Which was the, um, uh, the 108 00:05:43,470 --> 00:05:48,109 S2: links between shows. I also had a program in Spanish 109 00:05:48,110 --> 00:05:51,029 S2: for a year, which I was told by the powers 110 00:05:51,029 --> 00:05:54,210 S2: that by somebody who came in afterwards was a very 111 00:05:54,210 --> 00:05:57,930 S2: bad program. I think he was completely right because I 112 00:05:57,930 --> 00:05:59,849 S2: had never learned Spanish. He didn't say it was a 113 00:05:59,850 --> 00:06:02,450 S2: very bad program. He said it wasn't as great. I 114 00:06:02,490 --> 00:06:04,850 S2: had never learned Spanish formally. I was born and raised 115 00:06:04,890 --> 00:06:08,250 S2: in Peru. But it was interesting. I substituted for Lorraine 116 00:06:10,250 --> 00:06:13,530 S2: Keitel on Coffee Break, which was a woman's show. Ruth 117 00:06:13,529 --> 00:06:16,130 S2: Dinwiddie is one of my very best friends. I've known 118 00:06:16,130 --> 00:06:19,890 S2: her for 50 more than that 55 years. So I 119 00:06:19,890 --> 00:06:23,250 S2: knew that whole early crew. And I remember the live 120 00:06:23,250 --> 00:06:28,330 S2: productions of when you could choose a song and call 121 00:06:28,330 --> 00:06:31,409 S2: it in, and they'd sing it right there in the studio. Right? 122 00:06:31,690 --> 00:06:34,650 S2: I actually did edit tape for a little while. I 123 00:06:34,690 --> 00:06:39,570 S2: knew Mike Kellogg, of course. Also, I just knew them all. And, um, 124 00:06:39,610 --> 00:06:43,450 S2: it was kind of that old time center of radio. 125 00:06:43,690 --> 00:06:46,089 S2: Learned a lot about radio. In fact, I would, I 126 00:06:46,089 --> 00:06:49,170 S2: would count writing for radio as what cleaned up my 127 00:06:49,170 --> 00:06:51,250 S2: prose to make me a better writer. 128 00:06:51,310 --> 00:06:51,870 S1: Really? 129 00:06:51,910 --> 00:06:54,789 S2: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It was. I remember sitting at the 130 00:06:54,790 --> 00:06:57,870 S2: manual typewriters. They were so heavy that you could have 131 00:06:57,870 --> 00:06:59,910 S2: thrown them, and they could have been weapons. They would 132 00:06:59,950 --> 00:07:02,470 S2: have killed somebody if you could pick it up and. 133 00:07:02,510 --> 00:07:05,270 S1: Oh, I can remember getting the first. This was in 134 00:07:05,270 --> 00:07:08,549 S1: the 80s getting an IBM. I think it was IBM, 135 00:07:08,589 --> 00:07:13,830 S1: IBM Selectric. Yes. And you could actually use the backspace 136 00:07:13,870 --> 00:07:16,630 S1: key and it would erase whatever you had just written. 137 00:07:16,670 --> 00:07:19,870 S2: It blasted a little puff of white powder. Oh my. 138 00:07:19,910 --> 00:07:22,670 S2: I thought it was practically sent from above. 139 00:07:22,870 --> 00:07:23,550 S1: Magic. 140 00:07:23,870 --> 00:07:24,270 S2: Magic. 141 00:07:24,590 --> 00:07:27,710 S1: Magic. We had no idea. We had no idea what 142 00:07:27,710 --> 00:07:32,150 S1: was ahead for us. Okay, that is a great reason 143 00:07:32,150 --> 00:07:34,310 S1: for people to get a copy of this book because 144 00:07:34,310 --> 00:07:37,150 S1: it's our thank you this month. This is Moody Radio 145 00:07:37,150 --> 00:07:40,989 S1: 100 years proclaiming the gospel. I don't think your picture 146 00:07:40,990 --> 00:07:43,150 S1: is in here, Rosie. Oh, it needs to be in there. 147 00:07:43,190 --> 00:07:45,590 S2: They have no idea that I was there. Oh. The 148 00:07:45,590 --> 00:07:49,150 S2: other thing was that the the fights between Doctor Paul 149 00:07:49,150 --> 00:07:52,410 S2: Little and Aunt Teresa. And they were friendly, but they 150 00:07:52,450 --> 00:07:55,210 S2: went after each other with a vengeance. It was hysterical. 151 00:07:55,250 --> 00:08:00,370 S2: Pastor little. His desk was piled like high, and Aunt 152 00:08:00,370 --> 00:08:02,410 S2: Teresa would go after him and he'd say, you know, 153 00:08:02,410 --> 00:08:04,610 S2: a clean desk is a sign of a bad mind or, 154 00:08:04,650 --> 00:08:07,890 S2: you know, a poor. They were just funny entries, was 155 00:08:07,890 --> 00:08:10,210 S2: very strong character. Yes. So. 156 00:08:10,570 --> 00:08:11,610 S1: And single, wasn't she? 157 00:08:11,810 --> 00:08:12,530 S2: She was single. 158 00:08:12,570 --> 00:08:13,130 S1: Her whole life. 159 00:08:13,170 --> 00:08:15,370 S2: She was single her whole life. And she had a 160 00:08:15,370 --> 00:08:19,090 S2: friend who had a tremendous amount of money, had inherited, 161 00:08:19,090 --> 00:08:21,530 S2: who asked her to come and live with her in her, 162 00:08:21,570 --> 00:08:24,210 S2: you know, in the last years. And. Wow. Yeah. She 163 00:08:24,210 --> 00:08:24,650 S2: was a. Yeah. 164 00:08:24,650 --> 00:08:26,010 S1: Because Jim Wick said. 165 00:08:26,050 --> 00:08:27,130 S2: Jim Wick is another one. 166 00:08:27,170 --> 00:08:30,810 S1: Yeah, yeah. Jim said that he was, he produced for. 167 00:08:30,810 --> 00:08:33,850 S1: And he called her Terry. I produced for Terry. Toward 168 00:08:33,850 --> 00:08:36,930 S1: the end of her. Oh that's interesting there at the Kibe. Yeah. 169 00:08:37,010 --> 00:08:41,050 S2: I just saw Jim Wick last Saturday at his granddaughter's wedding. 170 00:08:41,090 --> 00:08:43,130 S2: I hadn't seen him in years and years. 171 00:08:43,370 --> 00:08:45,569 S1: This feels like old home. Yeah. This is so much. 172 00:08:45,690 --> 00:08:48,450 S1: We could just do this all our Rosie. But. But 173 00:08:48,450 --> 00:08:52,829 S1: you and I read a story or sorry, an article 174 00:08:52,830 --> 00:08:56,270 S1: in the Atlantic magazine, and I don't subscribe and I 175 00:08:56,270 --> 00:08:59,189 S1: don't read The Atlantic. But when I saw the title 176 00:08:59,190 --> 00:09:01,990 S1: of this, I thought, I gotta read that. It's by 177 00:09:01,990 --> 00:09:05,270 S1: Rose Horowitz. And let me give you let's set this 178 00:09:05,270 --> 00:09:10,470 S1: up by playing something from PBS NewsHour. The senior arts 179 00:09:10,470 --> 00:09:16,110 S1: correspondent Jeffrey Brown talked with Rose Horowitz, who's on the 180 00:09:16,110 --> 00:09:20,990 S1: Atlantic staff, and she wrote this article about the end 181 00:09:20,990 --> 00:09:23,470 S1: of reading is here. Here's what she said. 182 00:09:23,990 --> 00:09:26,589 S4: What I meant by the age of reading was, was 183 00:09:26,590 --> 00:09:29,870 S4: that this is bigger than what the statistics are showing us, 184 00:09:29,870 --> 00:09:33,390 S4: that what we're is really going away is a time 185 00:09:33,390 --> 00:09:39,870 S4: when reading was a major way that people transmitted, you know, culture, information, news, 186 00:09:40,070 --> 00:09:43,790 S4: and really derived meaning from text. And, you know, my 187 00:09:43,790 --> 00:09:47,110 S4: piece is arguing that that's ending and that we're entering 188 00:09:47,110 --> 00:09:49,170 S4: what I call a post-literate age. 189 00:09:49,490 --> 00:09:51,930 S5: And as you remind us at the beginning of this essay, 190 00:09:51,970 --> 00:09:55,210 S5: this this age of reading, which we have many of 191 00:09:55,210 --> 00:09:57,250 S5: us have been so immersed in for so long, it 192 00:09:57,250 --> 00:09:59,850 S5: actually doesn't have that long a history. 193 00:10:00,250 --> 00:10:03,330 S4: Yes. Well, so, you know, I think we think of 194 00:10:03,330 --> 00:10:06,810 S4: reading as kind of something that's innate or inevitable, but 195 00:10:06,809 --> 00:10:11,850 S4: actually it's quite historically contingent. Um, reading first emerged 6000 196 00:10:11,890 --> 00:10:16,290 S4: years ago, and it was only relatively recently that large 197 00:10:16,290 --> 00:10:19,530 S4: numbers of people could read and that people spent a 198 00:10:19,530 --> 00:10:22,969 S4: lot of time pleasure reading. So this is something that 199 00:10:22,970 --> 00:10:26,689 S4: is kind of new. And when this age started, it 200 00:10:26,690 --> 00:10:30,810 S4: really transformed society and the way people thought and the 201 00:10:30,809 --> 00:10:35,130 S4: way politics and culture worked. And as it's going away now, 202 00:10:35,210 --> 00:10:38,570 S4: I think we're seeing changes of the same magnitude in 203 00:10:38,570 --> 00:10:39,450 S4: our society. 204 00:10:39,890 --> 00:10:43,370 S5: Now, you referred to what we're entering as a post-literate age, 205 00:10:43,410 --> 00:10:46,870 S5: and there's been plenty of discussion, of course, about social media, 206 00:10:46,910 --> 00:10:51,069 S5: short videos on TikTok and elsewhere. And you're arguing that 207 00:10:51,070 --> 00:10:55,150 S5: we are reading differently already. So what do you mean 208 00:10:55,150 --> 00:10:57,030 S5: by a post-literate age? 209 00:10:57,190 --> 00:11:00,030 S4: If we look at the statistics, people still know how 210 00:11:00,030 --> 00:11:05,429 S4: to read. The literacy rate is actually historically very high. And, 211 00:11:05,470 --> 00:11:08,230 S4: you know, in many ways, we're probably reading more words 212 00:11:08,230 --> 00:11:11,150 S4: than ever. If you think about the number of emails 213 00:11:11,150 --> 00:11:14,790 S4: and text messages and social media posts you're reading. Like 214 00:11:14,830 --> 00:11:18,589 S4: we're inundated with words and we're surrounded with them. But 215 00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:22,069 S4: what's happening is that this kind of, you know, these 216 00:11:22,110 --> 00:11:24,670 S4: number of words that we're swimming in has made it 217 00:11:24,670 --> 00:11:28,270 S4: so that it's almost so difficult to focus on, you know, 218 00:11:28,309 --> 00:11:32,429 S4: any serious or complex work of literature for an extended 219 00:11:32,429 --> 00:11:36,429 S4: period of time. And so it's not a crisis of literacy. 220 00:11:36,750 --> 00:11:39,390 S4: It's that we are entering a post-literate age. 221 00:11:39,870 --> 00:11:44,310 S1: So that's Rose Horowitz from The Atlantic magazine, talking with 222 00:11:44,309 --> 00:11:48,570 S1: Jeffrey Brown of the PBS NewsHour. And I want to 223 00:11:48,570 --> 00:11:52,170 S1: come back with Rosie and talk about that article. The 224 00:11:52,210 --> 00:11:55,290 S1: end of reading is here, because we both felt like 225 00:11:55,690 --> 00:11:59,210 S1: there's something prophetic about it, and not only for the 226 00:11:59,210 --> 00:12:02,849 S1: broader culture or for our own hearts, but also the church. 227 00:12:03,090 --> 00:12:04,690 S1: So that's what we're going to talk about the rest 228 00:12:04,690 --> 00:12:06,849 S1: of the hour. If you go to Chris Fabry live.org, 229 00:12:06,890 --> 00:12:10,690 S1: we have a link to that article. Chris Fabry live.org. 230 00:12:21,330 --> 00:12:23,850 S1: After Rosie. Rosie is with us today at the Radio 231 00:12:23,850 --> 00:12:26,970 S1: Backyard fence we are talking about. We're talking about an article, 232 00:12:26,970 --> 00:12:30,370 S1: but we're also talking about what is in the article. 233 00:12:30,370 --> 00:12:34,090 S1: What Rose Horowitz, whose voice you just heard is saying 234 00:12:34,130 --> 00:12:38,929 S1: in the end of reading, is here. The subtitle from 235 00:12:38,929 --> 00:12:44,080 S1: The Atlantic is optimists once believed that universal literacy was inevitable. 236 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,360 S1: Now it seems that the age of reading might be 237 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,160 S1: a short anomaly in human history. And we're going to 238 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,280 S1: talk about that and why it's important to us and 239 00:12:54,360 --> 00:13:01,600 S1: the church as well. And if you want to jump in. (877) 548-3675. 240 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,080 S1: I thought this was a really well written, you know, 241 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:10,360 S1: 8 or 9000 word piece that hit a number of 242 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,280 S1: things that I have been thinking for a long time. 243 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,000 S1: And she was able to put it into words. What 244 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:15,960 S1: did you think, Rosie? 245 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,040 S2: Oh, I thought it was just really prophetic and in 246 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,520 S2: ways that the pulpit should be in ways that the 247 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:27,079 S2: Christian magazine should be. This has particular resonance. It should 248 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:32,040 S2: have particular resonance and prophetic value for the Christian. We 249 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,760 S2: are of. We do inhabit two worlds at a time. 250 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,720 S2: We do know the Lord. We are word based and 251 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,380 S2: I do not hear that coming from churches. We also. 252 00:13:42,420 --> 00:13:45,380 S2: I'm very glad that my church does not project words 253 00:13:45,380 --> 00:13:48,660 S2: onto a screen. I'm not completely panning that because at 254 00:13:48,660 --> 00:13:51,620 S2: my age I see it better. But mine is still 255 00:13:51,620 --> 00:13:55,260 S2: text based in a bulletin and my preacher does not 256 00:13:55,260 --> 00:13:57,780 S2: preach off. And I think everybody knows how I feel 257 00:13:57,780 --> 00:14:00,459 S2: about this off a screen, which I find terribly distracting. 258 00:14:00,460 --> 00:14:03,260 S2: He preaches out of the Bible, but we are. We 259 00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:08,180 S2: are not. We need to understand every parent listening to me, 260 00:14:08,580 --> 00:14:11,220 S2: every church leader listens to me. Listening to me needs 261 00:14:11,220 --> 00:14:14,740 S2: to understand that part of their obligation in what they 262 00:14:14,740 --> 00:14:17,980 S2: do in running Sunday schools and teaching Sunday schools, and 263 00:14:17,980 --> 00:14:21,220 S2: being part of the church is to emphasize the power 264 00:14:21,220 --> 00:14:24,380 S2: of reading, or nobody will be able to read the 265 00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:25,540 S2: sacred text. 266 00:14:25,540 --> 00:14:30,140 S1: Well, okay, can I jump in real quick? On Sundays 267 00:14:30,740 --> 00:14:33,300 S1: our pastor will say, get out your Bibles, you know, 268 00:14:33,340 --> 00:14:36,140 S1: get out your device, whatever, and I'll get out my 269 00:14:36,140 --> 00:14:39,460 S1: Bible and I'll realize I've got to hold it up 270 00:14:39,460 --> 00:14:42,960 S1: higher than the row before me in order to get 271 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,120 S1: enough light to be able to see. Because the the. 272 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,560 S1: The light is dim so that you can see the 273 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,320 S1: screen and, and so, you know, and that's not again, 274 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,240 S1: a knock. Most devices are backlit. Now. You can see 275 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,680 S1: it easily, but if you're reading an actual book in 276 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,400 S1: a dark room, it's very difficult to do that, especially 277 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,560 S1: when you get older, like, like yours truly. Okay. Go, Rosie. 278 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:12,400 S2: Yes. No. And I am admittedly, um, uh, you know, 279 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,720 S2: I has been, I suppose, but I'm not a has been, 280 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,840 S2: I have taught for six decades and I have still 281 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:23,080 S2: found that the word catches young people's minds. And there 282 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,000 S2: are still there are problems of different kinds with every decade. 283 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,360 S2: But when you introduce them to the solid reading word 284 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,680 S2: of a novel, it changes lives, and I've got enough 285 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,520 S2: testimonies to. I could talk about that. Even in the 286 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,760 S2: last class, I taught how people came to me and said, 287 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,780 S2: I've never been a reader. I had a guy that 288 00:15:40,780 --> 00:15:42,860 S2: had spent a lot of time in prison, had had 289 00:15:42,860 --> 00:15:46,580 S2: no background whatsoever, and he was so caught by the 290 00:15:46,580 --> 00:15:49,020 S2: the literature that he wants to just continue reading more 291 00:15:49,020 --> 00:15:52,140 S2: and more. Why is this not being emphasized from the pulpit? 292 00:15:52,140 --> 00:15:55,020 S2: Why don't people talk about reading about how can you 293 00:15:55,020 --> 00:15:58,740 S2: read these difficult texts that are metaphorical, that are, you know, 294 00:15:58,780 --> 00:16:03,260 S2: narratively complex if you are completely sold out to a screen? 295 00:16:03,260 --> 00:16:05,660 S2: And I think she she says so many good things. 296 00:16:05,660 --> 00:16:09,460 S2: She says reading shaped the modern mind. We're not postmodern. 297 00:16:09,460 --> 00:16:13,540 S2: So that's before its disappearance will reshape it. And then 298 00:16:13,540 --> 00:16:17,340 S2: she asserts, based on research, literally reading a word changes 299 00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:20,100 S2: your brain for a few hours at least. And if 300 00:16:20,140 --> 00:16:22,500 S2: you know how to measure it right for much longer 301 00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:25,780 S2: than that. If we fill our time with short form 302 00:16:25,780 --> 00:16:31,100 S2: videos instead of books, our reading skills atrophy. We. I'm 303 00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:32,860 S2: at that age where I know that I have to 304 00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:34,860 S2: work on my core. I'm not going to be walking 305 00:16:34,860 --> 00:16:37,700 S2: down the steps and I got steps to walk down. You. 306 00:16:37,780 --> 00:16:42,120 S2: You atrophy things that are unused atrophy and reading books 307 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,800 S2: is a wonderful workout for the attention span. The other. 308 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,920 S2: Yesterday I was walking somewhere and there was a young 309 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,680 S2: man standing at a table. There was absolutely nothing in 310 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,720 S2: his face. There was nothing. It was a face that 311 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,080 S2: was empty. I wanted to weep and I spoke and 312 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,960 S2: there was still empty. There is a kind of vacuity 313 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,960 S2: even in our good Christian young people, a vacuousness in 314 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,280 S2: the ways in which they make their decisions. I was speaking, 315 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:11,919 S2: I was I had dinner the other day with a 316 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,640 S2: former professor of mine who's a much older man, and 317 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,840 S2: he is trying to he's a tremendously well-read and he 318 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,600 S2: is trying to reach his grandchildren. And he said he 319 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,520 S2: cannot reach them. He had written them one of them, 320 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,960 S2: a graduation letter that was published in Notre Dame magazine. 321 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,800 S2: And Notre Dame is not a football, just a football team, 322 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,080 S2: was the magazine. And it was the most stunning letter. 323 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:34,480 S2: And he had told her he would give her the 324 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,500 S2: most expensive computer if she would just read it and 325 00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:41,260 S2: interact with him in a circular conversation, he said. People 326 00:17:41,260 --> 00:17:43,620 S2: don't know how to converse circularly, where you pick up 327 00:17:43,619 --> 00:17:46,100 S2: a piece and continue on. And of course, he's never 328 00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:47,780 S2: heard from her and he knew that would happen. He 329 00:17:47,780 --> 00:17:51,100 S2: bought her the computer anyway, but and he has written 330 00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:52,940 S2: a piece which I've asked him to send to me, 331 00:17:52,940 --> 00:17:56,060 S2: and he hasn't yet healed by reading. And when I 332 00:17:56,100 --> 00:18:00,660 S2: hear that, I think I measure my life by books. 333 00:18:00,660 --> 00:18:02,700 S2: I can think of 4 or 5 in my 20s 334 00:18:02,740 --> 00:18:05,500 S2: that turned me around in the way I loved, in 335 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:09,699 S2: the way I judged in my spirit things that absolutely 336 00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:13,899 S2: emptied me. They they they they, um, uh, cut into 337 00:18:13,940 --> 00:18:19,060 S2: me and changed things. And what she continues to say, 338 00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:21,740 S2: and she has many, many good things to say. She 339 00:18:21,740 --> 00:18:27,980 S2: says the that the brain associated with imagination is used 340 00:18:27,980 --> 00:18:31,859 S2: about half as much as when looking at static illustrations 341 00:18:31,859 --> 00:18:35,760 S2: or listening to an audio recording, even listening to books 342 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:40,080 S2: on audio does not engage the imagination the way reading 343 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,480 S2: a book does. And I'm I'm totally in favor of 344 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,359 S2: audio listening. I don't have any problem with that. And 345 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,960 S2: children use their also use their cerebellum, a part of 346 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,359 S2: the brain associated with learning less when watching a video. 347 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,280 S2: They don't really have to use their imagination as much 348 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:00,240 S2: because things are happening on the screen. The ramifications of 349 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,199 S2: not using your imagination well are so far reaching. It 350 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,720 S2: would take 2 or 3 shows to talk about it. It. We. 351 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,400 S2: It's what Lewis said. We need to water the imagination. 352 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,359 S2: If it is starved, it will go to the bad things. 353 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,480 S2: It will go to what the screen offers. 354 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,560 S1: Can I just say your. Your friend who wrote his 355 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,080 S1: granddaughter and offered to buy a computer. Have him write 356 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,480 S1: me a letter. I need a car. I'll write him back. 357 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,240 S2: I will talk to him about that, actually. 358 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,120 S1: No, actually I need the car that I have fixed. 359 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,520 S1: But I say that in jest, but healed by reading 360 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:34,380 S1: that says so much. 361 00:19:34,420 --> 00:19:35,260 S2: Isn't that beautiful? 362 00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:39,860 S1: Here's something else she quotes Maryanne Wolf, a cognitive neuroscientist 363 00:19:39,859 --> 00:19:43,580 S1: at UCLA. She argues that people are losing the ability 364 00:19:43,580 --> 00:19:47,100 S1: to think deeply about writing. That doesn't mean they are 365 00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:50,700 S1: forgetting how to decode individual words. Rather, they are losing 366 00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:55,900 S1: the higher order abilities of comprehension and synthesis. America, in 367 00:19:55,900 --> 00:20:01,540 S1: other words, is is not illiterate. It's post literate. And 368 00:20:01,540 --> 00:20:04,820 S1: she says things are about to get worse and fast. 369 00:20:04,820 --> 00:20:08,939 S1: And that sounds like doom and gloom. But what she is, 370 00:20:08,980 --> 00:20:12,379 S1: what she's putting her finger on the nerve of is 371 00:20:12,540 --> 00:20:17,340 S1: what we have seen the society baked in with all 372 00:20:17,380 --> 00:20:20,420 S1: of the the internet and social media and all that. 373 00:20:20,460 --> 00:20:23,740 S1: This is what is the the byproduct of that, don't 374 00:20:23,740 --> 00:20:24,060 S1: you think? 375 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:28,340 S2: Oh, oh, the comprehension thing and the ability to analyze 376 00:20:28,340 --> 00:20:30,780 S2: and what AI is going to do. I had the 377 00:20:30,780 --> 00:20:33,130 S2: experience just lately. I don't know how to turn off 378 00:20:33,130 --> 00:20:36,090 S2: the stupid AI button on my computer. I've got a 379 00:20:36,090 --> 00:20:38,330 S2: new computer because I'm you know, they're going to throw 380 00:20:38,330 --> 00:20:42,570 S2: me out of here with my computer anyway. Um, I 381 00:20:42,730 --> 00:20:45,250 S2: it the I must have hit something. I have no idea. 382 00:20:45,250 --> 00:20:49,889 S2: It rewrote my letter. I was so angry. And of 383 00:20:49,890 --> 00:20:54,730 S2: course it made it this generic kind of parlor type writing. Well, 384 00:20:54,730 --> 00:21:00,369 S2: now they say kids are hitting AI to synthesize things, 385 00:21:00,369 --> 00:21:04,250 S2: and they're sometimes angry at their professors for demanding the 386 00:21:04,250 --> 00:21:06,650 S2: whole book. Now, there is in some measure, you know, 387 00:21:06,690 --> 00:21:09,609 S2: I'm sure you all know that partial books are being 388 00:21:09,609 --> 00:21:13,050 S2: required now instead of whole works, which is such a 389 00:21:13,050 --> 00:21:16,450 S2: corruption of learning and education. I think there's a little 390 00:21:16,490 --> 00:21:18,369 S2: bit of a return to that and to getting rid 391 00:21:18,410 --> 00:21:22,490 S2: of the cell phone in the classroom. But this semester 392 00:21:22,490 --> 00:21:26,130 S2: I had 2 or 3 students that only read 10% 393 00:21:26,130 --> 00:21:31,050 S2: of the material, and that's going to be showing up 394 00:21:31,050 --> 00:21:32,990 S2: more and more. I mean, I'm not going to be 395 00:21:32,990 --> 00:21:36,109 S2: teaching anymore, but most of the students read most of 396 00:21:36,109 --> 00:21:39,790 S2: the material. I have to tell you that. But if 397 00:21:39,790 --> 00:21:41,869 S2: they can go to, they want to go to a summary, 398 00:21:42,310 --> 00:21:45,990 S2: a summary that is like looking at the ingredients of 399 00:21:45,990 --> 00:21:49,710 S2: a recipe when it's uncooked, you know, there is no savor. 400 00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:52,709 S2: I mean, what I feel about books. Richard Wright, the 401 00:21:52,710 --> 00:21:55,590 S2: great 20th century black writer who wrote a very famous 402 00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:59,830 S2: book called Black Boy, said, I hungered for books, new 403 00:21:59,830 --> 00:22:02,310 S2: ways of looking and seeing. It was not a matter 404 00:22:02,310 --> 00:22:04,990 S2: of believing or disbelieving what I read, but a feeling, 405 00:22:04,990 --> 00:22:08,350 S2: something new, of being affected by something that made the 406 00:22:08,350 --> 00:22:12,470 S2: world look different. And he says this about reading Menken's 407 00:22:12,510 --> 00:22:15,109 S2: A Book of prefaces. He says the mood of the 408 00:22:15,109 --> 00:22:18,790 S2: book would not buy die. It lingered, coloring everything I saw, 409 00:22:18,830 --> 00:22:23,270 S2: heard and did. I finally knew what white men were feeling. 410 00:22:23,630 --> 00:22:23,990 S1: Mhm. 411 00:22:24,109 --> 00:22:26,190 S2: Now, the thing I want to say about that is 412 00:22:26,190 --> 00:22:32,369 S2: I have always argued that during Black Awareness Month February. 413 00:22:32,690 --> 00:22:38,770 S2: Instead of issuing polemics, we need to read to our audiences, 414 00:22:38,770 --> 00:22:42,730 S2: to the chapels, hear the poetry of the greatest black writers. 415 00:22:42,930 --> 00:22:46,410 S2: Excerpts from their. Some of their greatest short stories. We 416 00:22:46,410 --> 00:22:49,770 S2: need to read Lawrence Dunbar. We need to read Alice Walker. 417 00:22:49,770 --> 00:22:53,250 S2: We need to. We need to make that an exercise 418 00:22:53,250 --> 00:22:58,690 S2: in understanding. Uh, if if I can remember when male 419 00:22:58,690 --> 00:23:02,889 S2: students in almost all male class read the yellow wallpaper 420 00:23:02,890 --> 00:23:05,449 S2: and a couple of what are termed feminist short stories, 421 00:23:05,450 --> 00:23:09,650 S2: they're just understanding women's stories. And they said, I never 422 00:23:09,690 --> 00:23:14,130 S2: knew that before. And this is what you can't get 423 00:23:14,130 --> 00:23:17,290 S2: with a summary. It I mean, I can't even tell 424 00:23:17,290 --> 00:23:20,290 S2: you I have been purging my books, hundreds of them, 425 00:23:20,290 --> 00:23:23,410 S2: because I'm at that stage of life and I'm stopped 426 00:23:23,410 --> 00:23:27,290 S2: all the time by an inscription by my grandfather, who 427 00:23:27,290 --> 00:23:29,750 S2: only had a high school education, but who put the 428 00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:31,830 S2: name and the price of every book? He had a 429 00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:35,510 S2: rich theological library by a leather bound volume from my 430 00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:39,950 S2: grandmother by buy something from my brothers that they loved 431 00:23:39,950 --> 00:23:44,190 S2: and sent to me. Books everywhere that charmed me, delighted me, 432 00:23:44,230 --> 00:23:46,709 S2: changed me, got in the sinew of my war. You 433 00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:49,630 S2: know the warp and woof of my life. My library is. 434 00:23:49,750 --> 00:23:52,950 S2: That's the part that's that is the horrible part of 435 00:23:52,950 --> 00:23:57,270 S2: I'm doing this, cutting away of my entire life, saving 436 00:23:57,270 --> 00:24:00,350 S2: what is essential that I can't live without at the moment. 437 00:24:01,190 --> 00:24:05,470 S1: And I think this in this sense, what you've just done, 438 00:24:05,790 --> 00:24:09,070 S1: the passion that you have for this topic, the passion 439 00:24:09,070 --> 00:24:13,550 S1: that you have for thinking deeply, for delight, that's what 440 00:24:13,550 --> 00:24:17,790 S1: you're talking about with reading and the process of reading that. 441 00:24:17,790 --> 00:24:21,270 S1: That is something that you have to hold up to 442 00:24:21,310 --> 00:24:24,229 S1: other people and show them how good it is, because 443 00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:27,350 S1: it's so much easier to fill their life with the 444 00:24:27,730 --> 00:24:30,690 S1: TikTok and the clips and all those kinds of things. And, 445 00:24:30,730 --> 00:24:33,969 S1: you know, they're so alluring, they're so easy, but they 446 00:24:34,410 --> 00:24:39,370 S1: detach us. Our attention spans and they dumb us down, 447 00:24:39,730 --> 00:24:43,090 S1: as you know. I remember Doctor Foose, Harold Foose, who 448 00:24:43,090 --> 00:24:46,490 S1: taught at Moody for many years. He always had a 449 00:24:46,490 --> 00:24:49,970 S1: book in his hand. He always had something that, you know, 450 00:24:50,090 --> 00:24:54,650 S1: we had a something in class. We were doing a test. 451 00:24:54,690 --> 00:24:57,449 S1: He'd always have a book right there to be reading 452 00:24:57,450 --> 00:24:59,810 S1: in front of the class. And I thought, I wonder 453 00:24:59,810 --> 00:25:03,290 S1: why he reads so much. He reads that much. And 454 00:25:03,290 --> 00:25:06,210 S1: then it dawned on me. It's like the reason why 455 00:25:06,210 --> 00:25:09,970 S1: he's good at teaching is because he thinks deeply. Because 456 00:25:09,970 --> 00:25:13,130 S1: he reads deeply. And so part of what I want 457 00:25:13,170 --> 00:25:15,810 S1: to do with the conversation here and then with the 458 00:25:15,810 --> 00:25:20,010 S1: book club, Rosie, that we've revamped here. We did the 459 00:25:20,010 --> 00:25:22,970 S1: first book club in June, and we were going to 460 00:25:22,970 --> 00:25:26,710 S1: have the second book club in September. And I'm almost 461 00:25:26,710 --> 00:25:28,790 S1: feeling like that's too long to wait. I want to 462 00:25:28,790 --> 00:25:31,270 S1: do this in in August. So let me come back. 463 00:25:31,270 --> 00:25:33,590 S1: We'll talk about the book that we're going to be reading. 464 00:25:33,990 --> 00:25:35,990 S1: And if you want to ask a question or make 465 00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:39,629 S1: a comment on our subject matter today with Rosie de Rossi, 466 00:25:40,150 --> 00:25:47,110 S1: just call (877) 548-3675. The end of reading is here is 467 00:25:47,109 --> 00:25:51,630 S1: the article in The Atlantic is Rose. Write more straight ahead. 468 00:26:04,030 --> 00:26:06,390 S1: It's always fun to have Doctor Rosie de Rosie with 469 00:26:06,390 --> 00:26:09,230 S1: us at the Radio Backyard fence. And I've been thinking 470 00:26:09,230 --> 00:26:12,110 S1: about this topic ever since I saw this article came 471 00:26:12,109 --> 00:26:16,470 S1: out in the Atlantic. Um, the end of reading is here. 472 00:26:16,910 --> 00:26:19,910 S1: The age of reading is gone. And what does that 473 00:26:19,910 --> 00:26:23,750 S1: mean reading the article, I've been thinking, okay, so how 474 00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:26,330 S1: do we how do we not go gently into that? 475 00:26:26,330 --> 00:26:30,770 S1: Good night. How do we push back against, you know, 476 00:26:30,810 --> 00:26:33,609 S1: the way that the culture is going and shed a 477 00:26:33,609 --> 00:26:37,690 S1: little light on the delight that comes from. I remember 478 00:26:37,690 --> 00:26:41,129 S1: Rosie saying to On the air, losing yourself in a 479 00:26:41,130 --> 00:26:43,050 S1: good book. You know, it's raining outside. I'm going to 480 00:26:43,050 --> 00:26:46,370 S1: lose myself in this book and someone writing and say, 481 00:26:46,410 --> 00:26:48,490 S1: I've never heard that before. I never thought about that 482 00:26:48,490 --> 00:26:51,330 S1: before losing yourself in a book. And it's like, no, 483 00:26:51,369 --> 00:26:56,530 S1: that's that's one of the great wonders of our minds 484 00:26:56,530 --> 00:26:58,850 S1: is that we can take these scribbles on a page 485 00:26:59,130 --> 00:27:01,730 S1: and we can get, and we can understand what somebody 486 00:27:01,770 --> 00:27:05,170 S1: 100 or 200 or 500 years ago was thinking at 487 00:27:05,210 --> 00:27:08,450 S1: that time and how it relates to me. So we 488 00:27:08,450 --> 00:27:13,090 S1: decided to revamp the, uh, the book club, Rosie's book 489 00:27:13,090 --> 00:27:15,369 S1: club that you started. I think it was like 21 490 00:27:15,369 --> 00:27:19,930 S1: years ago on Midday connection. And, uh, in June, we 491 00:27:19,930 --> 00:27:22,050 S1: read what was the book that we read in June 492 00:27:22,250 --> 00:27:23,250 S1: now I can't remember. 493 00:27:23,510 --> 00:27:25,070 S2: Shane. Shane. By Jack. 494 00:27:25,070 --> 00:27:28,790 S1: Schaefer. Of course. Shane. We read Shane and we did that. 495 00:27:28,790 --> 00:27:30,790 S1: And then people were saying, well, when's the next one? 496 00:27:30,830 --> 00:27:34,230 S1: It was like September because we wanted to do it quarterly. 497 00:27:34,430 --> 00:27:37,070 S1: And now here in the middle of July, toward the 498 00:27:37,070 --> 00:27:40,470 S1: end of July, I'm thinking that's it's too long. I wanted. 499 00:27:40,510 --> 00:27:43,429 S1: I want another book. So the next book club is 500 00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:45,389 S1: going to. We're going to do this in August. That's 501 00:27:45,390 --> 00:27:46,230 S1: okay with you, Rosie. 502 00:27:46,270 --> 00:27:47,429 S2: You're perfectly okay. 503 00:27:47,470 --> 00:27:49,950 S1: Okay. All right. So we're going to do The Wise 504 00:27:49,950 --> 00:27:55,230 S1: Woman by George MacDonald. And people say, so how do I, 505 00:27:55,270 --> 00:27:57,030 S1: you know, do I have to get a decoder pin 506 00:27:57,030 --> 00:28:00,150 S1: in order to know? Just get the book. Read the book. 507 00:28:00,150 --> 00:28:03,110 S1: By the time we have the, uh, the the club, 508 00:28:03,109 --> 00:28:06,310 S1: the show, and you be a part of that and 509 00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:10,150 S1: see what it does inside you and respond on that day. 510 00:28:10,150 --> 00:28:11,950 S1: And if you can't, you can listen to the, to 511 00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:16,350 S1: the on the website, to the podcast. But Rosie, this is, 512 00:28:16,350 --> 00:28:18,909 S1: I think this is one way to help people get 513 00:28:18,910 --> 00:28:21,510 S1: an idea of what reading can do, right? 514 00:28:21,550 --> 00:28:25,859 S2: Oh, absolutely. And we've started with short books. We've started 515 00:28:25,859 --> 00:28:30,420 S2: with Shane. Great classic, but small. The wise woman, tremendous 516 00:28:30,460 --> 00:28:34,380 S2: theological classic, even though it is a young adult, uh, even, 517 00:28:34,380 --> 00:28:37,660 S2: even younger, but just beautiful. And well, we're not going 518 00:28:37,660 --> 00:28:40,700 S2: to probably ever do The Brothers Karamazov. I just want 519 00:28:40,740 --> 00:28:43,620 S2: to let you know that, but we'll, we'll keep building 520 00:28:43,620 --> 00:28:47,180 S2: and read it with attention. Read it. Don't don't look 521 00:28:47,220 --> 00:28:51,780 S2: at summaries, read the book and think about it and 522 00:28:51,780 --> 00:28:56,540 S2: give yourself to text. Uh, it. I not only find 523 00:28:56,540 --> 00:28:59,740 S2: myself lose myself in reading, but I find myself in reading. 524 00:28:59,740 --> 00:29:03,220 S2: And I think the losing myself is because I'm finding myself. 525 00:29:03,220 --> 00:29:07,700 S2: But it's from from a indirect way that doesn't feel 526 00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:10,980 S2: as threatening. You can. You can make the application and 527 00:29:10,980 --> 00:29:12,860 S2: know who you are better. 528 00:29:13,420 --> 00:29:16,620 S1: And I want to play your voice from 21 years ago, 529 00:29:16,660 --> 00:29:18,979 S1: I think it was oh five or oh six. It 530 00:29:18,980 --> 00:29:21,320 S1: may have been later than that, but you are on 531 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:27,440 S1: midday connection and Anita Lustria was reading a response and 532 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,480 S1: and this you know, it's about a minute long, but 533 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,240 S1: this kind of encapsulates what you want to do with 534 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,720 S1: the book club. But also the response to the end 535 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,320 S1: of reading is here that we're talking about today. Let's 536 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,640 S1: go back, get in the Wayback Machine. Here we go. 537 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,720 S2: Well, imagine if you have entertained an illusion, say about 538 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,120 S2: what you're like or who you're going to marry, or 539 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,840 S2: the person you are married to, or a preacher or 540 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,440 S2: another person. You have never let any reality come into 541 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,680 S2: the midst of it, even though you've been warned and 542 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,560 S2: all of a sudden it fails you, you're not going 543 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,040 S2: to immediately adjust. Right? And it has. 544 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,720 S6: And it's, and it's and you're devastated. You're absolutely devastated. 545 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,240 S6: Holding to that illusion. We see that with Pip. Yeah. 546 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,560 S6: This email that came in from Shannon, which I thought 547 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,920 S6: was wonderful. She went on to say this was a 548 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,520 S6: long book. I thought I'd never get finished. It took 549 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,880 S6: a while to understand Dickens strange and rambling sentence structure, 550 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,120 S6: but when I did finish, I realized I still had 551 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,740 S6: two months before the radio discussion. So I decided to 552 00:30:20,780 --> 00:30:24,460 S6: to attack Les Miserables. That's really good. And she said, 553 00:30:24,460 --> 00:30:26,380 S6: this is something I never would have attempted a few 554 00:30:26,380 --> 00:30:28,620 S6: years ago, but thanks to the encouragement from the book club, 555 00:30:28,620 --> 00:30:31,580 S6: I finished that too. And I can't believe I've wasted 556 00:30:31,580 --> 00:30:34,260 S6: so many years reading fluff when these beautiful characters were 557 00:30:34,260 --> 00:30:36,900 S6: waiting to be read. It's like I was eating marshmallows, 558 00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:39,420 S6: not knowing there was a free steak dinner down the road. 559 00:30:39,460 --> 00:30:42,460 S2: Absolutely. And this is what I have been saying and 560 00:30:42,460 --> 00:30:46,180 S2: arguing how enriching it is to our lives. It's really 561 00:30:46,180 --> 00:30:48,540 S2: kind of a matter of intellectual life and death. 562 00:30:48,740 --> 00:30:50,820 S6: And I knew you would love this email. This is 563 00:30:50,820 --> 00:30:52,740 S6: from Shannon. And I thought that was great. She goes, 564 00:30:52,740 --> 00:30:55,340 S6: thanks for encouraging us to aim higher. 565 00:30:56,180 --> 00:31:01,220 S1: And go deeper and to lose yourself and find yourself 566 00:31:01,220 --> 00:31:03,980 S1: in a story. I just finished, and I'm not bragging 567 00:31:03,980 --> 00:31:07,060 S1: here because I read it on audio 34 hours. I 568 00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:10,780 S1: never read Anna Karenina, and I got to the end 569 00:31:10,780 --> 00:31:13,460 S1: of it, and I try not to spoil it here. 570 00:31:13,460 --> 00:31:17,500 S1: But the character of Levin, who's been an agnostic or 571 00:31:17,540 --> 00:31:21,000 S1: an atheist as you'd push to push God away for 572 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:27,200 S1: such a long time, begins to formulate something different. Looking 573 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,440 S1: at his son and feeling something come alive in him. 574 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,840 S1: And it's like, if I had not gone all the 575 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,960 S1: way through the despair of Anna and the train and 576 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,920 S1: all that, if I'd not gone all the way through 577 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:44,200 S1: that and seen Levon watching this all transpire, I don't 578 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,120 S1: know that I would have gotten, you know, that, uh, 579 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,640 S1: to go all the way through that for what Tolstoy did. Uh, 580 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,920 S1: it was, it was hard. It was hard to keep 581 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,560 S1: the characters in there, but it was so worth it. 582 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,280 S7: Huh? What do you think? Yes. 583 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,640 S2: What? I think this is what I think. There is 584 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,280 S2: nothing about this that is negative. What? I think what 585 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,000 S2: we are saying to you. Don't cheat yourself. Don't lead 586 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,920 S2: a thin life when there is this rich, rich gift 587 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,700 S2: by gifted authors, Christian or non-Christian, because gifts are always 588 00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:24,220 S2: from God. Don't go to the new thing as influencers, 589 00:32:24,220 --> 00:32:26,500 S2: and some of them don't have two brains to rub together. 590 00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:28,420 S2: They just want to be part of the elite. They 591 00:32:28,420 --> 00:32:32,500 S2: just want to have a podcast. Don't do the thin thing. 592 00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:35,100 S2: When the gorgeous thing, the piece of steak is there, 593 00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:37,340 S2: it will take a little adjustment. That's why we're leading 594 00:32:37,340 --> 00:32:40,260 S2: you into Shane and the wise woman and taking you up. 595 00:32:40,260 --> 00:32:43,180 S2: But your life will fill up in ways that you 596 00:32:43,220 --> 00:32:47,580 S2: never could have imagined, and you will be influenced by 597 00:32:47,580 --> 00:32:51,820 S2: the voice of God. I mean it behind all. Anything 598 00:32:51,820 --> 00:32:56,980 S2: beautiful or anything revealing or anything astonishing is always God 599 00:32:56,980 --> 00:33:00,500 S2: because he is the author of Good Things. I have 600 00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:02,420 S2: this quote that I just found. It said for the 601 00:33:02,420 --> 00:33:05,660 S2: rest of it's from The Chronicles of Narnia. The Magician's Nephew. 602 00:33:05,660 --> 00:33:07,740 S2: For the rest of that day, whenever he looked at 603 00:33:07,740 --> 00:33:12,260 S2: the things about him and saw how ordinary and unmagical 604 00:33:12,260 --> 00:33:16,160 S2: they were, he hardly dared to hope. But when he 605 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,800 S2: remembered the face of Aslan, he did hope. When we 606 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,960 S2: see the face of God, when we see the gifts 607 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,960 S2: of God, when we see these things that he has 608 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,720 S2: given us to enjoy, to stir our spirits in ways 609 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,440 S2: perhaps we haven't even felt them stirred. We are seeing 610 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,720 S2: the face of God, and in that there is hope. 611 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,800 S1: And in that is also the idea of digging into 612 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,920 S1: the scriptures. And not to say, you know, the Bible 613 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,040 S1: is literature, but it's not the same kind of literature 614 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,880 S1: as literature is. You know, there's something. It's God breathed. 615 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,240 S1: But if you do not, if you if I depend 616 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,640 S1: on John MacArthur commentary or anybody, any good or bad 617 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,840 S1: commentary to tell me what I'm reading, to explain everything 618 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:09,440 S1: to me without me engaging in, for example, the Psalms 619 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:14,700 S1: to engage those well, deeply myself, then I, and I 620 00:34:14,739 --> 00:34:17,660 S1: don't know Hebrew, I don't know in the New Testament, 621 00:34:17,660 --> 00:34:21,020 S1: I don't know Koine Greek. So it's helpful to, to 622 00:34:21,060 --> 00:34:24,500 S1: know that this word means that and here's the derivation 623 00:34:24,500 --> 00:34:27,900 S1: of it. But for me to engage in the text 624 00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:30,100 S1: and ask God, what are you saying here? And what 625 00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:33,500 S1: are you saying to me right now in the situation 626 00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:37,420 S1: that I'm in and the decisions that I'm making? That's 627 00:34:37,420 --> 00:34:38,739 S1: what you're talking about, right? 628 00:34:38,739 --> 00:34:41,940 S2: That's exactly what I'm talking about. And, and honestly, do 629 00:34:41,940 --> 00:34:46,580 S2: not ignore the Gospels and the narratives of Scripture reach 630 00:34:46,620 --> 00:34:50,140 S2: out and grip you when you read them carefully. Be 631 00:34:50,140 --> 00:34:52,940 S2: gripped by Jesus in a new way by reading the Gospels. 632 00:34:52,940 --> 00:34:57,180 S2: He's really quite unpredictable. He isn't anything like, you know, 633 00:34:57,219 --> 00:34:58,979 S2: and I've said this before on the air, you know, 634 00:34:58,980 --> 00:35:01,660 S2: he probably during, you know, good hair, blue towel over 635 00:35:01,660 --> 00:35:04,140 S2: the arm, stalking around a guy that would never date 636 00:35:04,140 --> 00:35:06,340 S2: a girl like me is one of my students said 637 00:35:06,340 --> 00:35:11,660 S2: nothing like that. He's surprising. He's loving. I now just 638 00:35:11,660 --> 00:35:13,640 S2: even in the last couple of years have come to 639 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,719 S2: totally feel the grace in the face of Christ and 640 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,480 S2: his closeness to me. And I'm a piece of work. 641 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:20,240 S7: MM. 642 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,759 S1: Why? Why just recently. 643 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,160 S2: Well, I've always had little shreds of it, but there 644 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,359 S2: is something about the last couple years of teaching when 645 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,160 S2: I've taught these novels, Christ has just come so close 646 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,880 S2: to me, and I. I. God is still sometimes a 647 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,160 S2: little hard, and the Holy Spirit, as we know, is 648 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,920 S2: always complex. But there is something about Christ. I really 649 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:46,080 S2: believe in his love for me because his stories make absolutely. 650 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,240 S2: That make absolutely clear. As abetted by the great novels 651 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,879 S2: I've read that show him images of Christ. 652 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,359 S1: That's Rosie Derossett. Doctor Derossett book club is coming back 653 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,399 S1: in August. We're going to pick a date, so it's 654 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,520 S1: just a few weeks away. The new book is George 655 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,879 S1: MacDonald's The Wise Woman. Again, this is a short work. 656 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,520 S1: It's something that you get at the library. You may 657 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,470 S1: be able to get it online as well. The wise 658 00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:16,509 S1: woman find that, read that. Be a part of the 659 00:36:16,510 --> 00:36:23,230 S1: book club. Get into the text yourself, make notes, ask questions, 660 00:36:23,350 --> 00:36:25,390 S1: and then join us. We'll let you know when we're 661 00:36:25,390 --> 00:36:27,029 S1: going to do the book club. We're going to do 662 00:36:27,030 --> 00:36:29,549 S1: it in September, but we're actually going to move it 663 00:36:29,550 --> 00:36:33,190 S1: up to August and continue that way. More with Rosie 664 00:36:33,230 --> 00:36:46,469 S1: straight ahead on Moody Radio. Our remaining moments with Doctor 665 00:36:46,469 --> 00:36:49,310 S1: Rosalie de rosé today at the Radio Backyard Fence. We've 666 00:36:49,310 --> 00:36:52,510 S1: been talking about this article that was in The Atlantic, 667 00:36:52,510 --> 00:36:57,430 S1: written by Rose Horowitz. The end of reading is here, 668 00:36:58,030 --> 00:37:01,910 S1: and we have a link to that@chris.org. You get a 669 00:37:01,910 --> 00:37:03,750 S1: certain amount of it and then you hit the paywall. 670 00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:06,750 S1: So just know that. But there was one part in 671 00:37:06,750 --> 00:37:09,590 S1: the article that really spoke to me and that was. 672 00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:12,810 S1: And I go back to the the hymns, you know, 673 00:37:13,010 --> 00:37:17,290 S1: here I lay my here I am the word. Ebenezer. 674 00:37:17,570 --> 00:37:17,970 S7: Yeah. 675 00:37:18,130 --> 00:37:20,049 S1: Yeah. It's like, we don't want to sing that because 676 00:37:20,050 --> 00:37:22,250 S1: nobody knows what it is. Well, tell us what it is. 677 00:37:22,450 --> 00:37:25,250 S1: You know, enlighten me and tell me what an Ebenezer is. 678 00:37:25,290 --> 00:37:27,730 S1: It's a stone of remembrance, you know. Yeah. And so 679 00:37:27,770 --> 00:37:33,489 S1: I have been reading the Spurgeon's. Look at the Psalms, 680 00:37:33,489 --> 00:37:37,610 S1: the whole look at the Psalms. It's from Crossway. Uh, 681 00:37:37,610 --> 00:37:41,130 S1: edited by Alister McGrath and J.I. Packer, who just turned 682 00:37:41,130 --> 00:37:42,250 S1: 100 this week. 683 00:37:42,290 --> 00:37:42,850 S7: Oh my. 684 00:37:43,130 --> 00:37:46,170 S1: He passed away, but he he would be 100 this week. 685 00:37:46,489 --> 00:37:50,489 S1: And in Psalm 26, I got to this place, the 686 00:37:50,489 --> 00:37:58,570 S1: word approbation, approbation a PPROBATION approbation. What is approbation mean? 687 00:37:58,969 --> 00:38:01,770 S1: And one of the things that Rose talks about in 688 00:38:01,810 --> 00:38:06,969 S1: the article is that these college students weren't able to 689 00:38:07,570 --> 00:38:10,750 S1: look at the sentence or look at the context of 690 00:38:10,750 --> 00:38:13,790 S1: a word and figure out what it might mean. You know, 691 00:38:13,950 --> 00:38:17,710 S1: it could be this, could be that. And the sentence 692 00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:21,390 S1: is what a comfort it is to have the approbation 693 00:38:21,630 --> 00:38:27,069 S1: of one's own conscience. That's from Charles Haddon Spurgeon. And 694 00:38:27,070 --> 00:38:32,430 S1: I thought, what what is approbation? The approbation of one's 695 00:38:32,430 --> 00:38:35,630 S1: own conscience. So I looked it up. And it means 696 00:38:35,630 --> 00:38:37,989 S1: approval or praise. 697 00:38:38,030 --> 00:38:38,590 S7: Mhm. 698 00:38:39,550 --> 00:38:44,350 S1: Approbation. The opera met with high approbation. So he's saying 699 00:38:44,350 --> 00:38:47,629 S1: what a comfort it is to have the approval or 700 00:38:47,630 --> 00:38:51,430 S1: the praise of one's own conscience as he's looking at 701 00:38:51,430 --> 00:38:55,030 S1: this verse in Psalm 26. So, you know, to read 702 00:38:55,030 --> 00:38:59,070 S1: some of these older works and to encounter a word 703 00:38:59,070 --> 00:39:01,710 S1: that you've never seen before, or you don't know what 704 00:39:01,710 --> 00:39:05,910 S1: the meaning is that will lead you to something good, 705 00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:06,550 S1: don't you think? 706 00:39:06,590 --> 00:39:09,250 S2: Oh, yes. You know, there are two ways to look 707 00:39:09,250 --> 00:39:11,410 S2: at this. When a little. I was reading classics by 708 00:39:11,410 --> 00:39:13,450 S2: the time I was young. Not because I was so brilliant, 709 00:39:13,450 --> 00:39:16,170 S2: just the way my mother raised me. Uh, and I 710 00:39:16,170 --> 00:39:18,090 S2: have a niece that read Tolkien by the time she 711 00:39:18,090 --> 00:39:21,250 S2: was about six. So she had two academic parents. But 712 00:39:21,290 --> 00:39:23,489 S2: and when she was reading along, nobody told her to 713 00:39:23,530 --> 00:39:26,650 S2: write down all the big vocabulary words. You know, you 714 00:39:26,690 --> 00:39:29,250 S2: have to go where you are. So there's a time 715 00:39:29,250 --> 00:39:31,969 S2: sometimes to just read for the delight and to read 716 00:39:31,969 --> 00:39:34,450 S2: through it and maybe make a check mark by it. 717 00:39:34,930 --> 00:39:36,529 S2: One of the things I do is I make check 718 00:39:36,570 --> 00:39:39,330 S2: marks by passages and books. And then at the at 719 00:39:39,330 --> 00:39:41,490 S2: the end of the book, I write down the page 720 00:39:41,489 --> 00:39:45,650 S2: number that I did it, or I would stop and 721 00:39:45,650 --> 00:39:48,290 S2: just write the word down. If you don't want to 722 00:39:48,330 --> 00:39:52,290 S2: interrupt yourself for later to come back to. Or just 723 00:39:52,290 --> 00:39:55,330 S2: look it up quickly. I mean, it's so easily looked 724 00:39:55,330 --> 00:39:58,890 S2: up today and see what it adds to it. More 725 00:39:58,930 --> 00:40:01,850 S2: than often it will just be a word that you 726 00:40:01,850 --> 00:40:04,969 S2: do really know, but it's just done in a different form. 727 00:40:04,969 --> 00:40:06,950 S2: It's a it's an educational thing. 728 00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:10,669 S1: So there is a you prime the pump with these 729 00:40:10,670 --> 00:40:14,710 S1: great works. You, you, you hunger for more. And that's 730 00:40:14,710 --> 00:40:16,989 S1: what the same with Bible reading. When you start to 731 00:40:16,989 --> 00:40:19,189 S1: read the Bible and you read it every day, you 732 00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:21,469 S1: start to want more of it. You want you. And 733 00:40:21,469 --> 00:40:24,190 S1: you see how it fits in together. Old and New 734 00:40:24,190 --> 00:40:27,790 S1: Testaments and Paul writing and what Peter is saying. So 735 00:40:27,790 --> 00:40:31,590 S1: there is a you, you prime the pump for wanting more. 736 00:40:31,590 --> 00:40:35,790 S1: And then there is stamina that you get from reading 737 00:40:35,790 --> 00:40:39,230 S1: these great works of literature. So that I think one 738 00:40:39,230 --> 00:40:41,230 S1: of the things you wanted to say here before we 739 00:40:41,230 --> 00:40:45,270 S1: end is there is this awakening in us. Talk about. 740 00:40:45,270 --> 00:40:46,110 S7: That. Oh. 741 00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:49,830 S2: Reading wakes you up. I have a thousand testimonies from 742 00:40:49,830 --> 00:40:53,069 S2: my students about how I just couldn't believe what this said. 743 00:40:53,070 --> 00:40:55,549 S2: I couldn't believe what or a classic article I give 744 00:40:55,550 --> 00:40:57,790 S2: them to read. I couldn't believe what that made me 745 00:40:57,830 --> 00:41:01,230 S2: think about how how that put in front of me 746 00:41:01,270 --> 00:41:03,430 S2: one of the books. We should probably read it in 747 00:41:03,430 --> 00:41:05,730 S2: the book club. Too Late The Phalarope by Alan Paton. 748 00:41:05,890 --> 00:41:09,770 S2: That I taught for 45 years in English. It. It 749 00:41:09,810 --> 00:41:13,129 S2: made men just become completely aware of secret sin in 750 00:41:13,130 --> 00:41:16,089 S2: the most incredible ways. But it gave. And it gave 751 00:41:16,090 --> 00:41:20,009 S2: them hope about communication. And one of the things. How 752 00:41:20,010 --> 00:41:22,610 S2: much does what we're reading. I mean, when we're social 753 00:41:22,610 --> 00:41:25,890 S2: media driven or TikTok, God help us or all those 754 00:41:25,890 --> 00:41:28,810 S2: things that are or even the influencers, some of them 755 00:41:28,810 --> 00:41:31,930 S2: who don't have the education God gave a goat. Um, 756 00:41:32,690 --> 00:41:35,130 S2: don't wake up. They're not waking us up because they 757 00:41:35,130 --> 00:41:40,250 S2: don't know more than we do. They just are flashier. Uh, what? 758 00:41:40,290 --> 00:41:42,410 S2: And you need to take an inventory of the books 759 00:41:42,410 --> 00:41:44,290 S2: that you do like. And be honest. I can tell 760 00:41:44,290 --> 00:41:46,529 S2: you books that I'm not terribly proud of, that I've 761 00:41:46,530 --> 00:41:50,210 S2: liked that you like or books that you dislike because 762 00:41:50,210 --> 00:41:53,850 S2: you just haven't understood them. And please know that there 763 00:41:53,850 --> 00:41:57,210 S2: are books you don't have to like every classic. There 764 00:41:57,210 --> 00:41:59,370 S2: are things I do not like that are classic. I 765 00:41:59,370 --> 00:42:02,090 S2: know it's my problem and it's okay. I'm not going there. 766 00:42:02,130 --> 00:42:04,270 S2: I just don't have that much time in my life. 767 00:42:04,510 --> 00:42:06,830 S2: But how do you expect to? Do you want to 768 00:42:06,830 --> 00:42:10,189 S2: be enlarged? And especially as a Christian, do you want 769 00:42:10,190 --> 00:42:13,709 S2: your life to get deeper and fuller, to know people more, 770 00:42:13,710 --> 00:42:17,990 S2: to know yourself more? And good, good reading? Is this 771 00:42:18,270 --> 00:42:22,830 S2: this wonderful way of a process of enlargement? And it 772 00:42:22,830 --> 00:42:25,670 S2: becomes such fun. I hate it when I don't have 773 00:42:25,670 --> 00:42:28,030 S2: a good book that I'm being lost and found in. 774 00:42:28,070 --> 00:42:28,590 S7: Yes. 775 00:42:28,989 --> 00:42:30,910 S1: Well, and, and the empathy. 776 00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:33,630 S7: Quotient here, empathy quotient. When you start. 777 00:42:33,630 --> 00:42:37,150 S1: To read and, and the quote from midday with Anita 778 00:42:37,150 --> 00:42:40,149 S1: and you, you were reading Great Expectations back then, and 779 00:42:40,150 --> 00:42:43,230 S1: you've got Pip and you got Miss Haversham. And when 780 00:42:43,230 --> 00:42:48,230 S1: you begin to understand the the backstory of Miss Haversham 781 00:42:48,469 --> 00:42:51,149 S1: and what happened to her and why she's in that 782 00:42:51,150 --> 00:42:53,430 S1: house and why that cake is, you know, that old 783 00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:56,190 S1: cake is there on the table. Then you start to 784 00:42:56,190 --> 00:42:59,590 S1: have empathy for her where you just hated her before. Right? 785 00:42:59,590 --> 00:43:02,290 S2: That's right. And then you see somebody this has happened 786 00:43:02,290 --> 00:43:04,650 S2: to me where you see somebody older who seems to 787 00:43:04,650 --> 00:43:08,129 S2: be so shut down. And you always know there's an 788 00:43:08,170 --> 00:43:11,210 S2: unbelievable reason for that, or a young person that's completely 789 00:43:11,210 --> 00:43:14,009 S2: shut down who's really irritating. And then you begin to 790 00:43:14,050 --> 00:43:18,850 S2: find out there's always a backstory, there's always a backstory. 791 00:43:19,290 --> 00:43:23,529 S1: Do you know the word sonder? SONDER? 792 00:43:23,969 --> 00:43:24,609 S2: No, I. 793 00:43:24,610 --> 00:43:25,090 S7: Don't. 794 00:43:25,130 --> 00:43:30,090 S1: Okay, SONDER. Uh, and maybe I should just not even 795 00:43:30,090 --> 00:43:33,410 S1: define it here for people so that everybody will go 796 00:43:33,450 --> 00:43:38,370 S1: look it up. But the, the definition of sonder is 797 00:43:38,410 --> 00:43:43,130 S1: it describes the awareness that other people have their own thoughts, 798 00:43:43,130 --> 00:43:49,569 S1: feelings and experiences, their own inner lives and are which 799 00:43:49,570 --> 00:43:52,649 S1: are as rich and detailed as your own, even though 800 00:43:52,650 --> 00:43:56,770 S1: they may appear as background figures in your daily life. 801 00:43:57,170 --> 00:44:01,240 S1: So that person that you have gone. And this was 802 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:06,000 S1: John Koenig who, uh, talked about this back, you know, 803 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,200 S1: 10 or 15 years ago. Um, what what he said 804 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,640 S1: was we are all our own main characters of our 805 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,120 S1: own lives. And everybody else is a supporting character, you know, 806 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,560 S1: and there's some are bigger characters than some. But that 807 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,480 S1: person that you just, you just checked you out at 808 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,160 S1: the grocery store, they have their own life and they 809 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,480 S1: are the main character in, in their life. So Sonder 810 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:35,160 S1: is this realization that, oh, other people, other people have 811 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,799 S1: their own stories. And I'm a minor character in their stories. 812 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,359 S1: That realization that coming to yourself, that you understand how 813 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,279 S1: this all kind of works together. 814 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,960 S2: That's really wonderful. I've never heard that. 815 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,160 S1: I hadn't either, until I counted the other day. But 816 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,680 S1: I bring it up here because it's true. When you 817 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,040 S1: get into fiction, when you start reading these great stories 818 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,980 S1: of the past and even, you know, good fiction that's 819 00:45:01,980 --> 00:45:06,259 S1: written today that that enlivens you. As you said, it 820 00:45:06,260 --> 00:45:10,260 S1: awakens you and it also connects you with the people 821 00:45:10,260 --> 00:45:14,700 S1: around you rather than distancing yourself. Because isn't that what 822 00:45:14,700 --> 00:45:17,259 S1: social media does? Isn't that what the internet does? It 823 00:45:17,260 --> 00:45:20,180 S1: feels like we're connecting, but we're really not distancing. 824 00:45:20,219 --> 00:45:21,220 S2: Yes, yes. 825 00:45:21,260 --> 00:45:21,739 S7: That's right. 826 00:45:21,780 --> 00:45:24,100 S1: Okay, okay. There's a lot of passion in here. 827 00:45:24,540 --> 00:45:25,100 S7: Rosie. 828 00:45:25,340 --> 00:45:28,020 S1: I love it when you come along. Thank you for 829 00:45:28,020 --> 00:45:31,700 S1: doing this today and for reading that article and kind 830 00:45:31,700 --> 00:45:34,580 S1: of taking us through it, agreeing there's some parts that 831 00:45:34,620 --> 00:45:37,740 S1: you didn't agree with, but we won't get into that today. 832 00:45:37,780 --> 00:45:38,140 S7: No. 833 00:45:38,180 --> 00:45:41,420 S1: Um, but if you want to read the article, we've 834 00:45:41,420 --> 00:45:43,899 S1: got a link to it. It's from The Atlantic by 835 00:45:43,900 --> 00:45:48,140 S1: Rose Horowitz. You can find it at Chris Fabry live.org. 836 00:45:48,660 --> 00:45:51,980 S1: The switch that we have made even today in June, 837 00:45:51,980 --> 00:45:54,259 S1: we said, we're coming back in September. We're going to 838 00:45:54,260 --> 00:45:58,520 S1: read The Wise Woman by George MacDonald, and we're going 839 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,640 S1: to switch that to August because I just feel like 840 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,520 S1: we can't wait until September to do this. We got 841 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,800 S1: to do this in August. So we'll go like every 842 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,319 S1: two months, and that means too late. The Phalarope is 843 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:11,879 S1: going to be down the road. We'll have to do 844 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,759 S1: something in December to for around Christmas time. Yeah, maybe 845 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,680 S1: we'll do a Christmas Carol or something along those lines. Right. 846 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,080 S1: But Rosie, keep being who you are, friend, and you 847 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:22,920 S1: come back and see us. 848 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:23,200 S7: Okay? 849 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:24,920 S2: Thank you. Great pleasure to be here. 850 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,840 S1: Doctor. Rosie day. Rosie. You can find out more about 851 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,760 S1: her and our featured resource today is her book, Seduced 852 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,840 S1: and Unshaken The Place of Dignity in a Woman's Choices. 853 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,440 S1: Have a great weekend. Read some good books. Read your 854 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,759 S1: Bible too, and come on back Monday for a conversation 855 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,560 S1: about rest and sleep on Chris Fabry live production of 856 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,400 S1: Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute, online. Chris 857 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:51,880 S1: Fabry live.org.