1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,039 S1: He's back. That purveyor of biblical truth with a voice 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,440 S1: deeper than Orson Welles is back with a frightening message. 3 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,000 S1: And the reason it's frightening to me is he's been 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,480 S1: he's been saying this thing same thing ever since I 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,040 S1: first heard him. And he keeps saying it because I 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,720 S1: think he thinks it's true. God's not mad at you 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,800 S1: if you're a follower of Jesus, if you're in Christ. 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:33,400 S1: God is not mad at you. The problem is, it's 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,919 S1: really easy to believe God's mad at you because you 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,320 S1: see how far short you fall every day. And that's 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,720 S1: the kind of thinking Steve Brown says causes us to 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:49,200 S1: needlessly struggle with guilt, shame, fear, and a boatload of regret. 13 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,720 S1: Have any of those on you today? Guilt, shame, fear, regret. 14 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,800 S1: Are you ready for some freedom? Let's get started with 15 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,240 S1: the program. To the heart for the heart from the 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,130 S1: heart online. Chris fabriclive.org. Let me thank our team. Ryan 17 00:01:03,130 --> 00:01:06,090 S1: McConaughey doing all things technical along with Lisa's help. And 18 00:01:06,090 --> 00:01:09,490 S1: Tricia will be our producer today. Josh will be answering 19 00:01:09,490 --> 00:01:11,810 S1: your calls. I also want to thank those of you 20 00:01:11,850 --> 00:01:14,850 S1: who've given a gift this month. Lola in Illinois is 21 00:01:14,850 --> 00:01:18,289 S1: the latest. Thank you Lola. Your support is really encouraging 22 00:01:18,290 --> 00:01:20,810 S1: and helps us do what we do each day. Doctor 23 00:01:20,810 --> 00:01:23,970 S1: Kathy Cook's book is our tangible way to say thank 24 00:01:24,010 --> 00:01:26,210 S1: you right now. If you give a gift of any size, 25 00:01:26,569 --> 00:01:29,490 S1: we're going to send you resolve conflict and find peace 26 00:01:29,490 --> 00:01:33,410 S1: and hope with adult children. For some reason, there's a 27 00:01:33,410 --> 00:01:36,890 S1: fracture in your relationship with that adult child. Or maybe 28 00:01:36,890 --> 00:01:40,130 S1: you're the child adult child and you have a fracture 29 00:01:40,130 --> 00:01:44,450 S1: with your parent. Maybe as a parent, you've heard, mom, dad, 30 00:01:44,450 --> 00:01:47,810 S1: don't contact me. We don't want contact with you right now. 31 00:01:47,850 --> 00:01:51,490 S1: Where's that coming from? How do you bridge that relational gap? 32 00:01:51,610 --> 00:01:53,410 S1: We'd love to send you a copy of this. Whether 33 00:01:53,410 --> 00:01:56,170 S1: you're the parent or the adult child, I think it'll 34 00:01:56,210 --> 00:01:59,260 S1: be practical and encouraging to you. There might be somebody, 35 00:01:59,260 --> 00:02:01,740 S1: you know, who's going through this and you don't know 36 00:02:01,740 --> 00:02:04,380 S1: what to say. Doctor cook has put a lot of 37 00:02:04,380 --> 00:02:06,500 S1: work into it. So give a gift of any size. 38 00:02:06,500 --> 00:02:11,540 S1: Chris Fabry live.org. FABRY. I spelled the last name Chris. 39 00:02:11,580 --> 00:02:14,820 S1: Fabriclive dot ORG. Or you can give a gift by 40 00:02:14,820 --> 00:02:24,020 S1: calling us at 8669538669532279. And thank you for your support 41 00:02:24,260 --> 00:02:29,060 S1: of the Radio Backyard fence. Steve Brown is a radio broadcaster, 42 00:02:29,060 --> 00:02:33,340 S1: founder of Key Life Network, former pastor. He's also a frequent, 43 00:02:33,500 --> 00:02:38,260 S1: in-demand speaker. I gotta figure out what that is. And 44 00:02:38,260 --> 00:02:41,980 S1: visiting seminary lecturer. He's the author of a number of books, 45 00:02:41,980 --> 00:02:45,620 S1: How to Talk so People Will listen. Three Free Sins, 46 00:02:45,980 --> 00:02:50,780 S1: Hidden Agendas, talk, the walk. I liked when your rope Breaks. 47 00:02:50,780 --> 00:02:52,780 S1: I don't even know if that's in print anymore, but 48 00:02:52,780 --> 00:02:55,900 S1: I still like that one. Uh, his latest is God's 49 00:02:55,900 --> 00:02:59,179 S1: not mad at you. Confronting the lies of guilt, shame, 50 00:02:59,180 --> 00:03:02,260 S1: fear and regret. Steve, how are you doing today? 51 00:03:02,980 --> 00:03:06,300 S2: I'm doing good, Chris. I was on with you not 52 00:03:06,300 --> 00:03:10,820 S2: too long ago, and so I know why you had 53 00:03:10,820 --> 00:03:15,100 S2: this program. You knew how old I was. You just 54 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:18,740 S2: wanted to see if I was still around. Yeah, and I. 55 00:03:18,780 --> 00:03:21,660 S2: And I wanted you to know I died. Guess where 56 00:03:21,660 --> 00:03:22,940 S2: I'm talking from? 57 00:03:25,620 --> 00:03:28,380 S1: You did not. Okay, so what does that mean? An 58 00:03:28,380 --> 00:03:30,780 S1: in demand speaker? Does that mean that you demand that 59 00:03:30,780 --> 00:03:34,820 S1: you speak and people listen? Or are people, uh, pulling you? 60 00:03:34,980 --> 00:03:38,020 S2: Yeah, that's what it is. Okay. And I when you 61 00:03:38,060 --> 00:03:40,540 S2: live as long as I have, you know, dirt on 62 00:03:40,540 --> 00:03:45,700 S2: almost everybody. So in order to get invitations, you've threatened 63 00:03:45,700 --> 00:03:51,900 S2: to reveal their secrets. And it's amazing how many speaking 64 00:03:51,900 --> 00:03:53,580 S2: engagements I get. 65 00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:58,550 S1: Okay. So to be honest with me, uh, full disclosure, 66 00:03:58,590 --> 00:04:01,670 S1: how many years have you have ticked over on the 67 00:04:01,670 --> 00:04:04,630 S1: clock calendar that you're now celebrating? 68 00:04:05,150 --> 00:04:06,470 S2: I'm 85. 69 00:04:07,070 --> 00:04:08,510 S1: Only 85? 70 00:04:09,030 --> 00:04:13,510 S2: That's great. I swam, I swam 50 laps yesterday. So 71 00:04:13,550 --> 00:04:17,710 S2: did you really? I'm still doing. I'm still. I have 72 00:04:17,710 --> 00:04:21,750 S2: a friend who says I'm a young old guy. Uh, 73 00:04:21,870 --> 00:04:26,910 S2: but I'm a young old guy preparing, uh, cramming for finals, too. 74 00:04:26,950 --> 00:04:30,190 S2: So they. I think I told you that the staff 75 00:04:30,230 --> 00:04:33,909 S2: here at Key Life are preparing for what they call 76 00:04:33,910 --> 00:04:39,430 S2: DD day. And that's the day Steve either drools or dies. 77 00:04:40,710 --> 00:04:43,590 S1: Uh, okay, so on Facebook, I put up this question. 78 00:04:43,589 --> 00:04:45,789 S1: What difference would it make for you if you really 79 00:04:45,790 --> 00:04:49,310 S1: believed God's not mad at you? That's the question. There 80 00:04:49,310 --> 00:04:51,910 S1: are people who are answering that. But Nicole said this. 81 00:04:51,910 --> 00:04:54,560 S1: You got to hear this. I'm so glad you regularly 82 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,120 S1: have Steve Brown on your program. Listening to him, my 83 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,480 S1: soul breathes a sigh of relief. God's message of grace 84 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,559 S1: and forgiveness by Jesus comes through loud and clear, and 85 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,880 S1: that deep, reassuring voice of Steve's. Isn't that good? 86 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,480 S2: Oh, man. I may call you and say, repeat it 87 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:21,320 S2: to me occasionally. It really is. And it's an illustration 88 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,440 S2: of what Martin Luther said. He said, we must preach 89 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:31,200 S2: the gospel to each other, lest we become discouraged. And 90 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:39,000 S2: he was talking about God's grace, unconditional, amazing, and given 91 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,760 S2: to his people. 92 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,479 S1: And I said at the beginning, this is scary as 93 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:48,760 S1: frightening because you have not changed this message from I 94 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,240 S1: think I interviewed you or met you in the, in 95 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,890 S1: the 1980s, mid Mid 1980s. And then I wrote a 96 00:05:54,890 --> 00:05:59,730 S1: book and it was a little novella. And at the 97 00:05:59,730 --> 00:06:03,570 S1: heart of that story, it was a Christmas novella. At 98 00:06:03,570 --> 00:06:06,969 S1: the heart of the story was the phrase, God's not 99 00:06:06,970 --> 00:06:09,570 S1: mad at you, and I got it from you. You know, 100 00:06:09,610 --> 00:06:13,609 S1: I kind of fleshed it out. And you have not 101 00:06:13,610 --> 00:06:16,089 S1: changed your tune all these years, have you? 102 00:06:16,810 --> 00:06:23,770 S2: No. And in fact, it's become, um, more radical. We 103 00:06:23,770 --> 00:06:28,130 S2: were talking with some staff people there creating a, what 104 00:06:28,130 --> 00:06:34,530 S2: they call, uh, a, my legacy. I don't care about that. 105 00:06:34,529 --> 00:06:38,089 S2: And when I die after a week, I'm not even 106 00:06:38,089 --> 00:06:40,930 S2: going to leave a hole. But they call it the vault. 107 00:06:41,370 --> 00:06:44,770 S2: And the reason I wince when they talk about doing 108 00:06:44,770 --> 00:06:48,930 S2: that is because I look at old sermons and there's 109 00:06:48,930 --> 00:06:52,770 S2: so many kickers in it. At times I sound like 110 00:06:52,810 --> 00:06:59,770 S2: a Pharisee. But all of that time, first I believed 111 00:06:59,770 --> 00:07:04,250 S2: and accepted and tried to live the eternal verities of 112 00:07:04,250 --> 00:07:08,170 S2: the faith. I believe the Scripture is all true. I 113 00:07:08,170 --> 00:07:14,650 S2: believe in verbal plenary inspiration, the miracles, the bodily resurrection, 114 00:07:14,690 --> 00:07:18,210 S2: the return of Christ, on and on. I believed all 115 00:07:18,250 --> 00:07:21,770 S2: of those things. But at the heart of it I 116 00:07:21,810 --> 00:07:26,770 S2: have also taught grace. And sometimes I put kickers in 117 00:07:27,130 --> 00:07:32,810 S2: because I wasn't that sure. I like everybody else. When 118 00:07:32,810 --> 00:07:40,130 S2: we really understand how radical the gospel is. We think 119 00:07:40,130 --> 00:07:45,290 S2: nothing could be that good. It just can't. There is 120 00:07:45,290 --> 00:07:48,330 S2: no way that can be. I was speaking, Chris. I 121 00:07:48,330 --> 00:07:52,940 S2: was speaking at a conference not too long ago, uh, about, uh, 122 00:07:52,940 --> 00:07:57,020 S2: it was a conference on Grace. And, uh, the guy 123 00:07:57,020 --> 00:08:01,380 S2: that was ahead of me just preached a wonderful sermon. 124 00:08:01,380 --> 00:08:04,580 S2: Or maybe it was a lecture on the subject of grace. 125 00:08:04,940 --> 00:08:08,540 S2: And the guy who headed up to the conference got 126 00:08:08,540 --> 00:08:13,220 S2: up after he had spoken and said, oh, God, I 127 00:08:13,260 --> 00:08:14,580 S2: hope this is true. 128 00:08:14,860 --> 00:08:15,220 S1: Um. 129 00:08:15,500 --> 00:08:19,420 S2: And, uh, you know, we all feel that once we 130 00:08:19,460 --> 00:08:26,060 S2: get it, we think that person who wrote to you about, uh, about, uh, 131 00:08:26,060 --> 00:08:30,860 S2: hearing about grace and being refreshing has exactly the same 132 00:08:30,860 --> 00:08:36,140 S2: thing we all feel. But with that being said, I'm old. 133 00:08:36,420 --> 00:08:39,900 S2: I've been doing this a long time. Longer than a 134 00:08:39,900 --> 00:08:44,420 S2: lot of you have been alive. And if you want 135 00:08:44,460 --> 00:08:49,950 S2: to hear the truth, ask an old guy. because we 136 00:08:49,990 --> 00:08:53,230 S2: don't care. We don't give a rip. We don't care 137 00:08:53,230 --> 00:08:56,550 S2: what you think about us. So we'll tell you the truth. 138 00:08:56,830 --> 00:09:02,030 S2: So you listen to what I'm saying. This stuff is true. Yeah. 139 00:09:02,070 --> 00:09:08,230 S2: It is so incredibly true that even this old Presbyterian 140 00:09:08,230 --> 00:09:15,510 S2: sometimes tries to dance. It is joyful, it is exciting, 141 00:09:15,790 --> 00:09:17,630 S2: and it's never going to end. 142 00:09:18,190 --> 00:09:22,270 S1: And there's freedom here rather than. And this is what 143 00:09:22,270 --> 00:09:25,550 S1: you say in the book. If you struggle with guilt, shame, 144 00:09:25,550 --> 00:09:31,070 S1: fear and regret, those. The source of those problems are 145 00:09:31,630 --> 00:09:36,430 S1: the false narratives we believe and we live by. And 146 00:09:36,429 --> 00:09:38,429 S1: what you just that phrase that you just used a 147 00:09:38,429 --> 00:09:42,070 S1: minute ago, the kickers that we use that's in the book. 148 00:09:42,350 --> 00:09:45,150 S1: And I found that very I found it fascinating because 149 00:09:45,590 --> 00:09:48,840 S1: you would say one thing, one, biblical truth or read 150 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,640 S1: one biblical verse and I in my mind, I would 151 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:53,880 S1: I would kind of say, well, yeah, but and then 152 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,359 S1: you'd show the kicker is what I'm saying to myself. 153 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,000 S1: So we all need this. I want to take a 154 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,520 S1: break and we'll come back with Steve Brown. If you 155 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,320 S1: go to the website, chris.org, you'll see the new book. 156 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,400 S1: It just came out yesterday. God's not mad at you 157 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,360 S1: confronting the lies of guilt, shame, fear and regret. I'm 158 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,240 S1: going to open the phone lines. If you want to 159 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:21,479 S1: talk with Steve at eight, seven, seven, five, four, eight, three, six, seven, 160 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:33,800 S1: five more straight ahead. If you are on the treadmill 161 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,080 S1: of performance Christianity, if every day you wake up and 162 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,760 S1: you feel like you're at the same place you were yesterday, 163 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,400 S1: or even further behind than where you want to be 164 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,320 S1: or where God wants you to be, and you've done 165 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,439 S1: more and you've tried harder, and you're frustrated, and you 166 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,200 S1: live with guilt and shame, and there's all this fear 167 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,920 S1: that you have and regret that grips your heart. Then 168 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,120 S1: I want you to listen to Steve Brown today. He's 169 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,920 S1: written a book titled God's Not Mad at You. He's 170 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,320 S1: used that phrase in other books that he's had and 171 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,079 S1: has said it for 50 years or more. Confronting the 172 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,760 S1: lies of guilt, shame, fear and regret. And I said 173 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,400 S1: this to a friend the other day, Steve, who is 174 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,680 S1: dealing with macular degeneration, the possibility of not being able 175 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:25,160 S1: to see down the road. And I told my friend, 176 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,920 S1: I am becoming less enamored with the phrase. This didn't 177 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:34,760 S1: take God by surprise. Not because the phrase is not true, 178 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:40,559 S1: it is, but because it discounts the real pain that 179 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,440 S1: I'm going through, that I'm feeling. And you've said that 180 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:49,090 S1: phrase before, and I've said that phrase before. Again, because, 181 00:11:49,370 --> 00:11:52,370 S1: you know, to try to comfort. But I'm becoming less 182 00:11:52,370 --> 00:11:58,690 S1: comfortable with that feeling because of the distance. No, it's 183 00:11:58,690 --> 00:12:04,410 S1: me trying to distance myself from my friend's pain. What 184 00:12:04,410 --> 00:12:05,449 S1: do you say about that? 185 00:12:05,970 --> 00:12:10,090 S2: I think that's right on. We do that. And and 186 00:12:10,130 --> 00:12:14,850 S2: I didn't want this book, and I made intentional efforts 187 00:12:14,850 --> 00:12:18,930 S2: to make sure it didn't, uh, ignore the pain and say, 188 00:12:18,929 --> 00:12:23,090 S2: I've got a solution, I don't. Guilt, shame and fear 189 00:12:23,090 --> 00:12:26,490 S2: and regret are part of what it means to be alive. 190 00:12:26,929 --> 00:12:29,809 S2: We live in a fallen world. My wife is dealing 191 00:12:29,809 --> 00:12:33,970 S2: with macular degeneration, and I don't like it one bit. 192 00:12:33,970 --> 00:12:38,130 S2: And she doesn't either. And I tell God that. So 193 00:12:38,130 --> 00:12:42,530 S2: in the book, I said that those things are not fixable. Um, 194 00:12:42,929 --> 00:12:47,020 S2: they can be made a lot better. Uh, but a 195 00:12:47,020 --> 00:12:51,180 S2: part of living in a fallen and dark world. And 196 00:12:51,179 --> 00:12:54,380 S2: we don't look at the implications of those very much. 197 00:12:54,380 --> 00:12:59,420 S2: We do the Disney World thing instead. Uh, the reality 198 00:12:59,420 --> 00:13:03,300 S2: of a fallen world is that it's really dark. And 199 00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:07,179 S2: not only that, my, my friend Jack Miller used to 200 00:13:07,179 --> 00:13:11,420 S2: say that the whole Christian faith can be summed up 201 00:13:11,420 --> 00:13:15,140 S2: in two sentences. First, cheer up, you're a lot worse 202 00:13:15,140 --> 00:13:19,260 S2: than you think you are. And secondly, cheer up. God's 203 00:13:19,260 --> 00:13:22,740 S2: grace is a lot bigger than you think it is. 204 00:13:23,020 --> 00:13:27,620 S2: And I would add to that cheer up. The world 205 00:13:27,620 --> 00:13:33,740 S2: is a lot darker than you think that is to. And. 206 00:13:33,740 --> 00:13:37,660 S2: And to ignore that and pretend it doesn't exist is 207 00:13:37,660 --> 00:13:41,020 S2: not the Christian faith. And so in the book, I 208 00:13:41,059 --> 00:13:45,110 S2: try to be clear that this isn't fixable. You're going 209 00:13:45,150 --> 00:13:49,110 S2: to deal with this until you get home and then 210 00:13:49,110 --> 00:13:53,230 S2: you won't have to anymore. But between now and then, 211 00:13:53,510 --> 00:13:58,870 S2: God has given us some instructions that we say we believe, 212 00:13:59,150 --> 00:14:03,589 S2: but we don't. Uh. Given us instructions to make it 213 00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:07,630 S2: a lot better. And as an old guy, uh, I've 214 00:14:07,630 --> 00:14:10,870 S2: been there and I've done that, and I know. And 215 00:14:10,870 --> 00:14:18,110 S2: millions of other Christians have discovered these truths, too. I have, uh, Chris, 216 00:14:18,110 --> 00:14:22,030 S2: I have a you to love him. Uh, a a voice, 217 00:14:22,030 --> 00:14:24,550 S2: one of the voices of key life. His name is 218 00:14:24,550 --> 00:14:29,550 S2: Jerry Perez, and he's African American. You know, we were 219 00:14:29,550 --> 00:14:32,350 S2: having lunch yesterday and he said, you know, the difference 220 00:14:32,350 --> 00:14:35,910 S2: between white folks and black folks. And I said, no, 221 00:14:35,950 --> 00:14:41,120 S2: what is the difference? He said, you white people preach grace, 222 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,720 S2: but you don't. But you live the law. And he said, 223 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:51,240 S2: and we preach the law, and we live grace. And 224 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,080 S2: I thought about it, and I thought, you know, that's 225 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:57,760 S2: profound and it has truth. The the problem with most 226 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,240 S2: of us isn't that we don't say the doctrine, right. 227 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,800 S2: That we don't speak the truth that needs to be spoken. 228 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:13,640 S2: We just don't believe it applies to us, really. So 229 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,120 S2: we had kickers. So we. 230 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,280 S1: Okay. Explain, explain a kicker. Explain the kicker because I, 231 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,200 S1: I have said this to several guests over the last 232 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:29,240 S1: few months and the idea, the phrase God, God can't 233 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,680 S1: love you more than he does right now. Already you 234 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:38,000 S1: are loved, you're accepted, you're forgiven. You're, you're imputed, you're righteous. 235 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,840 S1: You're holy in front if you're in Christ, God can't 236 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,000 S1: love you anymore. He does right now. But my daily 237 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,440 S1: experience is God is frowning at the portal of heaven. 238 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,760 S1: He's got his arms crossed. He's going, why did you 239 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,680 S1: do that? Why did you say that, you numbskull? You know, 240 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,240 S1: why do we get to that place of. This is 241 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,080 S1: what I believe over here. But this is how I feel. 242 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,680 S2: Because of the kickers that we had as teachers and 243 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,400 S2: preachers and leaders. And we do it because we don't 244 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,080 S2: want to mess people up. We're so afraid of freedom 245 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,120 S2: and grace. What you said then is what you said 246 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,400 S2: to yourself and you provided your own kicker. But if 247 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,160 S2: you come to me with what you said or I 248 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,080 S2: said it, I would say at the end of it, 249 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,560 S2: but don't let it go to your head. 250 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:28,520 S1: Right? 251 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,920 S2: And so a kicker becomes something you give with one 252 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,120 S2: hand and you take with the other hand. And we 253 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:40,650 S2: do it all the time. We say, God is your father. 254 00:16:41,050 --> 00:16:46,530 S2: But don't forget about discipline. Uh, don't. You're free and 255 00:16:46,530 --> 00:16:55,050 S2: you're forgiven of it all. But don't go and sin anymore. We're, 256 00:16:56,090 --> 00:16:58,730 S2: you know, and I can give you 10,000 of them, 257 00:16:58,730 --> 00:17:02,609 S2: but we do it all the time, and we do it. Chris, 258 00:17:02,610 --> 00:17:06,370 S2: I think for the right reasons. And it hurts more 259 00:17:06,369 --> 00:17:09,890 S2: people than you would know. And then we start putting 260 00:17:09,890 --> 00:17:14,530 S2: the kickers on ourselves the way you just did. And, uh, 261 00:17:14,530 --> 00:17:18,169 S2: we end up being filled with fear and regret and 262 00:17:18,170 --> 00:17:19,450 S2: guilt and shame. 263 00:17:20,290 --> 00:17:24,330 S1: I had a friend who was preaching one day and 264 00:17:24,330 --> 00:17:27,290 S1: he said, I'll never forget this. And I don't even 265 00:17:27,290 --> 00:17:29,970 S1: know if he went on to any kind of leadership 266 00:17:29,970 --> 00:17:33,169 S1: and pastoring. I think it was in missions. But he 267 00:17:33,170 --> 00:17:36,489 S1: said that we we think of God. We think of 268 00:17:36,619 --> 00:17:39,980 S1: ourselves as walking on a tightrope, and God is on 269 00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:43,300 S1: the other end of that tightrope, and he's watching us, 270 00:17:43,660 --> 00:17:47,140 S1: and he's criticizing and he's shaking his head. Oh, he's 271 00:17:47,140 --> 00:17:49,500 S1: going to fall again. You know, this kind of thing. 272 00:17:49,540 --> 00:17:52,619 S1: He said, what we ought to think is we are 273 00:17:53,420 --> 00:17:58,619 S1: not on a tightrope. We're walking on a wide ground, 274 00:17:58,619 --> 00:18:03,340 S1: coming toward him on a solid bridge. And he's encouraging 275 00:18:03,340 --> 00:18:05,180 S1: us and he's saying, come on, you can do it. 276 00:18:05,180 --> 00:18:08,740 S1: Come on, come on over here. And that picture in 277 00:18:08,740 --> 00:18:13,460 S1: my mind has has changed, at least to some extent. 278 00:18:13,740 --> 00:18:16,780 S1: That feeling of the God shaking his head at me. 279 00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:21,379 S2: It's so true. That is so good. That will be 280 00:18:21,380 --> 00:18:25,859 S2: something that I'll stick in my brain too. So you 281 00:18:25,859 --> 00:18:30,220 S2: tell your preacher friend he got two of us because 282 00:18:30,220 --> 00:18:34,580 S2: it's a great image of who God really is. We. 283 00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:37,950 S2: That's the big lie. We lie about who God is 284 00:18:38,430 --> 00:18:42,670 S2: and God is God. You know, what else do you 285 00:18:42,670 --> 00:18:47,510 S2: want God to do? To let you know that God 286 00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:54,190 S2: is love. He sent his son. He sent his son. And. 287 00:18:54,190 --> 00:18:57,230 S2: And he died on a cross to say, this is 288 00:18:57,230 --> 00:19:01,230 S2: how much I love you. And his son, everything he 289 00:19:01,230 --> 00:19:06,910 S2: demonstrated and said and illustrated in his life was reaching 290 00:19:06,910 --> 00:19:11,189 S2: out to people like you and me, who think we're nobodies, 291 00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:15,270 S2: who think that we'll never please a holy God. And 292 00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:20,149 S2: we won't. We're not good enough to. I've been doing 293 00:19:20,150 --> 00:19:23,390 S2: this for a long time, and Chris. I've heard more 294 00:19:23,390 --> 00:19:28,430 S2: confessions than the district attorney in a in a major 295 00:19:28,430 --> 00:19:33,670 S2: political trial. I just over and over I've heard people 296 00:19:33,869 --> 00:19:37,030 S2: talk about the bad things, and a lot of them 297 00:19:37,070 --> 00:19:41,469 S2: are Christian leaders and they come to me, I think, Chris, 298 00:19:41,510 --> 00:19:44,189 S2: because they think at least I'm worse than they are. 299 00:19:44,830 --> 00:19:48,270 S2: And and so they lay it out and and I 300 00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:52,390 S2: just shake my head. Don't you know what you've been preaching? 301 00:19:52,790 --> 00:19:57,550 S2: Don't you believe what the Christian faith said? You're calling 302 00:19:57,550 --> 00:20:02,630 S2: God a liar as he reveals himself and tells you 303 00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:06,990 S2: what he's done. And every time we go through that, we, 304 00:20:06,990 --> 00:20:12,710 S2: in effect, challenge God and say, you really don't mean that? 305 00:20:14,230 --> 00:20:17,910 S1: I want you to speak to the person today like 306 00:20:17,910 --> 00:20:20,990 S1: the person who wrote you at Key Life. Uh, he 307 00:20:20,990 --> 00:20:23,869 S1: was fully. This is from the book, page 32. He 308 00:20:23,869 --> 00:20:27,310 S1: was concerned about not fully surrendering his life to Christ. 309 00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:31,150 S1: He had gone through painful experiences. He thought that it 310 00:20:31,150 --> 00:20:34,840 S1: had happened because of that lack of surrender. So there 311 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,720 S1: it is again. You know, I messed up. And so 312 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,120 S1: God's getting me back on this. And even more than that, 313 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,320 S1: he was afraid that he wouldn't ever be acceptable in 314 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,479 S1: heaven and would be lost eternally. What do you say 315 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,760 S1: to somebody who's struggling with something like that? 316 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,840 S2: Um, well, I, when I wrote to him, I don't 317 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,000 S2: know what I said in the book, but I'm sure 318 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,720 S2: I didn't include everything I said to him. I called 319 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,240 S2: him a fruitcake first, and then I went into what 320 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:11,520 S2: the doctrinal, the Bible doctrine says about that sort of thing. 321 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:17,719 S2: And then I told him that God will never, ever, uh, 322 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:24,120 S2: think anything about you except you're his son, clothed in 323 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:29,359 S2: the righteousness of his beloved son, Jesus. And every time 324 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,609 S2: he thinks about you, he wants to have a party. 325 00:21:33,290 --> 00:21:35,810 S2: I don't remember what I said in the book or 326 00:21:35,850 --> 00:21:39,210 S2: even that, you know, I wrote it a long time ago, 327 00:21:40,450 --> 00:21:45,170 S2: but that what I just said is true. And and we, 328 00:21:45,690 --> 00:21:49,410 S2: I don't know, it must be in our DNA. And 329 00:21:49,410 --> 00:21:52,890 S2: it may be coming from the dark side. The accuser 330 00:21:52,890 --> 00:21:58,970 S2: lies and accuses us all the time. And um, but 331 00:21:59,010 --> 00:22:03,290 S2: it's there and it's there with you. When I started saying, 332 00:22:03,290 --> 00:22:06,930 S2: and you referred to the God's not mad at you. Uh, 333 00:22:06,930 --> 00:22:10,330 S2: that was so freeing. Have I told you about the 334 00:22:10,330 --> 00:22:13,929 S2: Michael Kelly Blanchard song about that? 335 00:22:13,970 --> 00:22:14,570 S1: No. 336 00:22:14,850 --> 00:22:20,850 S2: Maybe. Uh, well, as you know, he's a wonderful lyricist, and, uh, 337 00:22:20,930 --> 00:22:25,169 S2: he was the one who wrote some stuff for Paul Stookey. 338 00:22:25,210 --> 00:22:29,690 S2: And be glad. Be glad. Every sin you ever had 339 00:22:29,980 --> 00:22:33,139 S2: he's paid up. And he wrote that. And he wrote 340 00:22:33,140 --> 00:22:36,900 S2: a song about a girl whose parents were in an 341 00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:42,340 S2: automobile accident. And, um, her mother was killed and the 342 00:22:42,340 --> 00:22:46,820 S2: father was driving. And maybe because of guilt, I don't 343 00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:50,300 S2: know what happened, but he and his daughter began to 344 00:22:50,340 --> 00:22:54,900 S2: have division until finally he kicked her out of the 345 00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:59,379 S2: house and she went to live with her grandmother. Michael 346 00:22:59,380 --> 00:23:03,500 S2: told me this story, went to live with her grandmother. Um, 347 00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:06,780 S2: and she was a party girl. She had an abortion. 348 00:23:07,100 --> 00:23:10,619 S2: She had, um, she had done some things that were 349 00:23:10,619 --> 00:23:14,580 S2: really bad. And she worked at a factory and there 350 00:23:14,580 --> 00:23:17,100 S2: was a guy with a big black Bible at the 351 00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:20,020 S2: factory who told her God was going to judge her. 352 00:23:20,020 --> 00:23:25,100 S2: And she knew it was true. But, but Chris, the, 353 00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:31,150 S2: the lyrics of that song, uh, the chorus refers to 354 00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:35,070 S2: a picture of Jesus that was in the room where 355 00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:39,070 S2: she stayed at her grandmother's. And this is what Michael 356 00:23:39,070 --> 00:23:44,430 S2: Kelly Blanchard wrote. And there's a picture of Jesus hanging 357 00:23:44,430 --> 00:23:48,470 S2: on the wall. And it's been there since I was 358 00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:53,150 S2: very small. And he looks like he just seen a 359 00:23:53,150 --> 00:23:57,710 S2: little girl fall. And he don't look angry at all. 360 00:23:58,230 --> 00:24:02,910 S2: He don't look angry at all. You know, when I 361 00:24:02,910 --> 00:24:06,950 S2: tell that story and I tell it often, uh, giving 362 00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:15,870 S2: credit where it's due, um, people start crying. People people 363 00:24:15,869 --> 00:24:21,590 S2: react to that story incredibly. Christians do. And and that's 364 00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:24,510 S2: where I got the phrase. He's not angry at all. 365 00:24:25,070 --> 00:24:30,830 S2: He's not mad at you. And that is extremely freeing. 366 00:24:31,910 --> 00:24:36,389 S2: It changes everything. And we all say we believe it. 367 00:24:37,070 --> 00:24:40,230 S2: It's a part of our doctrinal. We all know that. 368 00:24:40,510 --> 00:24:43,630 S2: I'm not going to be teaching new doctrine in this book. 369 00:24:44,150 --> 00:24:47,910 S2: This book is the same old doctrine, the same old truths. 370 00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:53,869 S2: We've often believed. But what I'm saying is, they're they're true. 371 00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:58,190 S2: They're all true. I think it. 372 00:24:58,350 --> 00:25:02,030 S1: I think I think part of the answer to the 373 00:25:02,030 --> 00:25:06,230 S1: question of why people struggle with, uh, you know, am 374 00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:07,990 S1: I going to make it or not? And God is 375 00:25:07,990 --> 00:25:12,670 S1: mad at me is an issue of control. Because if 376 00:25:12,670 --> 00:25:17,630 S1: I think that I have the power to do enough, 377 00:25:17,670 --> 00:25:21,470 S1: be enough, say enough, read enough, study enough. ET cetera. 378 00:25:21,470 --> 00:25:23,869 S1: ET cetera. If I have the ability to do that 379 00:25:23,869 --> 00:25:26,520 S1: so that I can make it, it makes me feel better. 380 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,240 S1: And to believe that he has done it all for me. 381 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,119 S1: The very thing that I could not do for myself 382 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,560 S1: is unsettling to us because we want to do it ourselves. 383 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,919 S1: We want to have control over that. So that's why 384 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,600 S1: surrender is such a part of the Christian life. And 385 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,359 S1: we're going to talk more. You've got to hear the 386 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,160 S1: story about the adopted daughter that Steve's going to tell. 387 00:25:49,200 --> 00:26:05,440 S1: Straight ahead on Chris Fabry Live. He's in demand. He's 388 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,439 S1: a radio broadcaster, former pastor, author Steve Brown. God's not 389 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,919 S1: mad at you. He's been talking about that for years 390 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,920 S1: and years, and he's going to keep talking about it 391 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,359 S1: until we get tired of him. He's in demand. He's 392 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,520 S1: in demand. So I asked this on Facebook. What difference 393 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,810 S1: would it make for you if you really believed God's 394 00:26:24,810 --> 00:26:30,409 S1: not mad at you. And probably the best response here. 395 00:26:30,450 --> 00:26:35,290 S1: Cindy says I'd cry if I really believed that I'd cry. 396 00:26:36,290 --> 00:26:38,770 S1: Jennifer says this was a huge concept for me when 397 00:26:38,770 --> 00:26:41,250 S1: God showed me he wasn't angry with me. It was 398 00:26:41,250 --> 00:26:44,090 S1: a huge boost in my relationship with him. It transformed 399 00:26:44,090 --> 00:26:48,369 S1: my life. Brian says not that he's mad at me, 400 00:26:48,369 --> 00:26:53,210 S1: but rather my concern that I'm being punished or I'm 401 00:26:53,210 --> 00:26:56,690 S1: lacking his best for me. I know that's not God, 402 00:26:56,690 --> 00:27:00,010 S1: but my thoughts, those are my thoughts way too often. 403 00:27:00,690 --> 00:27:03,210 S1: Craig says, honestly, it would make a lot of difference. 404 00:27:03,210 --> 00:27:06,010 S1: I wouldn't be as afraid to come to him to 405 00:27:06,050 --> 00:27:09,930 S1: pray in worship. I know myself and the stupid things 406 00:27:09,930 --> 00:27:12,850 S1: that I continue to do, and I'm ashamed and think 407 00:27:12,850 --> 00:27:17,370 S1: that Jesus is disappointed in me. So those are just 408 00:27:17,369 --> 00:27:20,930 S1: some of the responses. And that's why Steve wrote the book. 409 00:27:21,130 --> 00:27:25,820 S1: God's not mad at you. It's subtitled Confronting the Lies 410 00:27:25,820 --> 00:27:30,060 S1: of Guilt, shame, fear and regret. And wrapped in with that. 411 00:27:30,060 --> 00:27:32,500 S1: And I said this at the end of that segment, Steve, 412 00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:37,139 S1: is this idea of control. If I can control this, 413 00:27:37,740 --> 00:27:41,180 S1: even my own salvation, if I can control this, then 414 00:27:41,180 --> 00:27:45,500 S1: it makes me feel better. Why is that a lie? 415 00:27:46,619 --> 00:27:52,740 S2: Because we're sinners, and we'd rather the preacher who hit 416 00:27:52,740 --> 00:27:55,660 S2: the ball and duffed it. And a bird came and 417 00:27:55,660 --> 00:27:57,900 S2: picked it up and dropped it on the green. And 418 00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:00,660 S2: a squirrel came up and knocked it into the hole, 419 00:28:01,020 --> 00:28:04,780 S2: looked up and said, Lord, I'd rather do it myself. 420 00:28:05,180 --> 00:28:08,340 S2: And we say that to him all the time. Listen, 421 00:28:08,340 --> 00:28:14,859 S2: I have one time somebody came to Martin Luther and 422 00:28:14,900 --> 00:28:18,780 S2: had the same question you just brought up and said 423 00:28:18,780 --> 00:28:23,140 S2: to Martin Luther, do you mean we don't bring anything 424 00:28:23,180 --> 00:28:27,900 S2: to the table. And Luther said, I must have misspoken. 425 00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:31,580 S2: And I'm so sorry. Of course, we bring something to 426 00:28:31,619 --> 00:28:36,379 S2: the table. We bring our sins to the table. And 427 00:28:36,619 --> 00:28:41,060 S2: so Luther and so true. And we need to remember it. 428 00:28:41,860 --> 00:28:44,380 S2: But we do like to control, don't we? I want 429 00:28:44,420 --> 00:28:50,260 S2: to be and I want and self righteousness, uh, is 430 00:28:50,260 --> 00:28:54,580 S2: very addictive, I know. Yeah, because I go there. 431 00:28:54,620 --> 00:28:57,540 S3: And it's so hard to see. I can see self 432 00:28:57,540 --> 00:28:59,180 S3: righteousness in every, every other. 433 00:28:59,180 --> 00:29:01,340 S1: Person except myself. You know what I mean? 434 00:29:01,380 --> 00:29:04,580 S2: It's the one sin you when you've got you don't 435 00:29:04,580 --> 00:29:07,340 S2: know and absolutely. Right. 436 00:29:07,660 --> 00:29:08,140 S3: Yeah. 437 00:29:08,180 --> 00:29:12,380 S2: And we want and you know, it's hard. I listen 438 00:29:12,380 --> 00:29:16,980 S2: I'm the most controlling person. You know I, you know 439 00:29:17,020 --> 00:29:21,150 S2: I don't like stop signs and I want to fix them. 440 00:29:21,670 --> 00:29:24,310 S2: And I want to control people, and I want to 441 00:29:24,310 --> 00:29:29,270 S2: be people's mother. And I'm a fixer. And, boy, God 442 00:29:29,270 --> 00:29:31,950 S2: has yanked that out of me. And I thought, if 443 00:29:31,990 --> 00:29:35,270 S2: you really love me, you wouldn't do this. And then 444 00:29:35,270 --> 00:29:40,310 S2: I realized that's the demonstration of his love. Because I'll 445 00:29:40,310 --> 00:29:45,190 S2: never know his power and his love until I'm out 446 00:29:45,230 --> 00:29:46,110 S2: of control. 447 00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:50,070 S1: You know what I've. I've been looking at over the 448 00:29:50,070 --> 00:29:53,870 S1: last couple of years, and my. My dad died in 2011. 449 00:29:53,870 --> 00:29:57,190 S1: My mom died in 2022. So I've had about four 450 00:29:57,190 --> 00:30:03,950 S1: years without both of them. And, um, it's something when you, 451 00:30:03,950 --> 00:30:06,790 S1: you lose your parents and you become an orphan, you know, 452 00:30:06,830 --> 00:30:09,670 S1: and you look at the gravestone and you feel this, oh, 453 00:30:09,670 --> 00:30:12,990 S1: I can't pick up the phone and ask for, you know, uh, 454 00:30:13,310 --> 00:30:16,190 S1: any kind of directions about how to cook that cake 455 00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:19,600 S1: or do whatever. But there is a, Say there's a 456 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:25,720 S1: feeling spiritually of being an orphan when you when you 457 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,960 S1: act as if God is not there, that he is 458 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,280 S1: not your really your father, he doesn't really care. He's 459 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,080 S1: not listening to you. He doesn't know you. He's not 460 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:41,520 S1: walking with you. Um, why is that orphan spirit so prevalent, 461 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:42,280 S1: do you think? 462 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,640 S2: I think it really is our sin. I think it's, uh. 463 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,920 S2: I think that is one of the reasons Christ died 464 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,440 S2: for us. My friend Jack Miller, uh, used to say 465 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,240 S2: to people, he's in heaven now, but he used to 466 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,360 S2: say to people that were a part of his mission organization, 467 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,160 S2: when they would get depressed, he would say, you're acting 468 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,840 S2: like an orphan. Don't you have a daddy? Don't you 469 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,360 S2: have a home? And that was powerful in the way 470 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:23,130 S2: he said it, because he was simply lifting up biblical truth. Um, and, 471 00:31:23,410 --> 00:31:27,850 S2: and I think when we don't think that, uh, it's 472 00:31:28,010 --> 00:31:33,610 S2: coming from our sin, our desire, self righteousness, our ego, 473 00:31:34,090 --> 00:31:38,610 S2: a lot of stuff. You had mentioned that orphan story. 474 00:31:38,650 --> 00:31:41,730 S1: Yeah. The adopted, uh, the adopted girl. You went to 475 00:31:41,770 --> 00:31:44,850 S1: their home and ate with them before she was adopted. 476 00:31:44,850 --> 00:31:46,690 S1: And after. Tell me that story. 477 00:31:47,050 --> 00:31:50,650 S2: Well, before they were in our church. In fact, uh, 478 00:31:50,650 --> 00:31:57,050 S2: he was on our staff, and they adopted this teenage girl. Uh, listen, 479 00:31:57,450 --> 00:32:01,050 S2: if you have teenagers in your family and you die, 480 00:32:01,450 --> 00:32:06,010 S2: you go straight to heaven. They don't even ask about Jesus. 481 00:32:06,050 --> 00:32:09,210 S2: They just say, you poor dear. You come on. And 482 00:32:09,210 --> 00:32:12,490 S2: this is a joke, so don't send me letters. But 483 00:32:12,490 --> 00:32:16,450 S2: she was a teenager, and I. They invited me over 484 00:32:16,450 --> 00:32:21,250 S2: to dinner and that was the most well-behaved kid I 485 00:32:21,290 --> 00:32:25,130 S2: have ever seen. And she wanted. She washed the dishes. 486 00:32:25,490 --> 00:32:31,650 S2: She helped out. She always said, yes, ma'am or yes, sir. She. 487 00:32:31,850 --> 00:32:36,210 S2: In fact, I got really uncomfortable. I thought, this isn't normal. 488 00:32:36,570 --> 00:32:41,050 S2: There's something wrong with this. But I thought, well, it's nice. 489 00:32:41,050 --> 00:32:44,050 S2: They sure got a good one. And then I was 490 00:32:44,050 --> 00:32:49,010 S2: invited back a couple of months later to dinner. And 491 00:32:49,010 --> 00:32:51,970 S2: all of a sudden I have a real teenager on 492 00:32:51,970 --> 00:32:58,330 S2: my on my hands. She's sullen some. She says that 493 00:32:58,330 --> 00:33:01,850 S2: it's her brothers time to wash the dishes, not hers. 494 00:33:02,210 --> 00:33:06,570 S2: She said, and they go. And then I think, thank heavens. 495 00:33:06,850 --> 00:33:13,050 S2: And then I realize I'm exactly like her. And, uh. 496 00:33:13,570 --> 00:33:16,420 S2: And and I don't have to be that way. I 497 00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:22,860 S2: am free and. And I'm free in every way you 498 00:33:22,860 --> 00:33:27,380 S2: can imagine. Uh, there's an old story that I tell 499 00:33:27,380 --> 00:33:32,060 S2: a lot about, and it may be apocryphal about Abraham 500 00:33:32,060 --> 00:33:36,219 S2: Lincoln going to the slave market and bidding on a 501 00:33:36,220 --> 00:33:41,300 S2: young lady and winning the winning the bid. And they 502 00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:44,660 S2: were walking away from the slave market. And he turned 503 00:33:44,660 --> 00:33:48,020 S2: to her and said, you're free now. And she said, 504 00:33:48,220 --> 00:33:53,220 S2: thinking another white man gonna abuse her. And, and, uh, 505 00:33:53,220 --> 00:33:57,380 S2: she said, oh yeah, what does that mean? And he said, 506 00:33:57,380 --> 00:34:01,180 S2: it means you're free. And she said, what does that mean? 507 00:34:01,180 --> 00:34:04,340 S2: I can say whatever I want to say. And Lincoln 508 00:34:04,340 --> 00:34:07,660 S2: laughed and said, yes, you can say whatever you want 509 00:34:07,660 --> 00:34:12,140 S2: to say, can I? She said, be whatever I want 510 00:34:12,180 --> 00:34:17,310 S2: to be. And, uh, and Lincoln said, yeah, you're free. 511 00:34:17,590 --> 00:34:21,630 S2: You can be whatever you want to be. She said, 512 00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:27,629 S2: can I go wherever I want to go? And Lincoln said, yes, 513 00:34:27,870 --> 00:34:31,870 S2: you can go wherever you want to go. And then 514 00:34:31,870 --> 00:34:35,710 S2: she said, with tears streaming down her face, then I 515 00:34:35,710 --> 00:34:42,910 S2: think I'll go with you. That's by the way, the 516 00:34:42,910 --> 00:34:48,910 S2: way Christians get in the process of sanctification. We we don't. 517 00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:53,029 S2: I had somebody one time in a Q&A session say, 518 00:34:53,070 --> 00:34:57,150 S2: Doctor Brown, you're wrong. He's angry and I'm glad he is. 519 00:34:58,030 --> 00:35:01,230 S2: And I and I said, there's something wrong with you. 520 00:35:01,630 --> 00:35:05,549 S2: And he said, no, no. If because he's angry it 521 00:35:05,550 --> 00:35:09,870 S2: keeps me straight. And I said, okay, but it's not 522 00:35:09,870 --> 00:35:13,279 S2: going to do that for long. You're going to get worse. 523 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,960 S2: And so when we're free, everybody says you're giving people 524 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,920 S2: permission to sin. No I'm not. You were doing fine 525 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:27,040 S2: with that before I came along. Uh, but but you're 526 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:32,120 S2: drawn and and we say with great joy, then I 527 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,440 S2: think I'll go with you. Yes. And we do. 528 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:41,280 S1: That story of the girl. The teenage girl is the 529 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,640 S1: perfect analogy. And then the Lincoln story is just, you know, 530 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:51,200 S1: we'll wreck it too. But the girl before she's adopted, 531 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:58,240 S1: before she is, uh, is sure of who she is. 532 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:04,000 S1: She's performing, she's earning, she's doing everything she can to 533 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:10,400 S1: be accepted. When the truth was, they loved her before 534 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,489 S1: the adoption and after the adoption and the music that 535 00:36:14,489 --> 00:36:17,250 S1: she listened to that wasn't to your taste or the 536 00:36:17,250 --> 00:36:22,529 S1: parent's taste or whatever, didn't change the love of her 537 00:36:22,530 --> 00:36:28,650 S1: parents for her. She was fully accepted and loved. Now, 538 00:36:28,850 --> 00:36:34,210 S1: how do I do with that today? With God's love? 539 00:36:34,250 --> 00:36:39,050 S1: Do I look at him and feel fully accepted by 540 00:36:39,090 --> 00:36:44,489 S1: him and adopted into his forever family? Or am I 541 00:36:44,530 --> 00:36:50,610 S1: trying to earn my way into his favor on my own? 542 00:36:51,090 --> 00:36:54,290 S1: That's a question that Steve Brown answers in God's Not 543 00:36:54,290 --> 00:36:56,810 S1: Mad at You. It's our featured resource. Just go to 544 00:36:56,850 --> 00:37:10,890 S1: Chris Fabry live.org. Heather Holloman. It's good to be with 545 00:37:10,890 --> 00:37:15,089 S1: us tomorrow. Doctor Heather Holloman, she teaches at Penn State, 546 00:37:15,090 --> 00:37:17,969 S1: and she has written these novels for 10 to 14 547 00:37:17,969 --> 00:37:20,770 S1: year olds. That kind of deal with what we're talking 548 00:37:20,770 --> 00:37:25,290 S1: about right now and who we are in Christ. I 549 00:37:25,290 --> 00:37:28,050 S1: think every parent listening is going to want their kids 550 00:37:28,050 --> 00:37:30,610 S1: to read this, but also they need to live it. 551 00:37:30,930 --> 00:37:33,370 S1: And that's why we're talking today with Steve Brown. God's 552 00:37:33,370 --> 00:37:39,810 S1: Not Mad at You as our featured resource@chris.org. Chris Fabry live.org. 553 00:37:40,770 --> 00:37:44,210 S1: What I said right there at the end of of that, 554 00:37:44,250 --> 00:37:49,810 S1: you know, earning it or just receiving it, the greatest 555 00:37:49,810 --> 00:37:53,610 S1: thing that you could do for God is to let 556 00:37:53,610 --> 00:37:56,690 S1: him love you. Do you agree with that? 557 00:37:57,610 --> 00:38:01,450 S2: I, yeah, I do. In fact, there's a principle, Chris, 558 00:38:01,810 --> 00:38:07,570 S2: and it's a really important principle. Uh, love in response 559 00:38:07,570 --> 00:38:13,100 S2: to obedience isn't love, it's reward. And in fact, you 560 00:38:13,140 --> 00:38:19,620 S2: can't experience love until you don't deserve it. And that's 561 00:38:19,620 --> 00:38:24,700 S2: what's happened in our lives. And the reason the gospel 562 00:38:24,700 --> 00:38:30,180 S2: is so important. And then we're able to spread that around. 563 00:38:30,219 --> 00:38:33,660 S2: It's one of the reasons there's so much division is 564 00:38:33,660 --> 00:38:36,900 S2: because we're trying to be so good. As a matter 565 00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:40,420 S2: of fact, you can't love until you've been loved, and 566 00:38:40,420 --> 00:38:44,180 S2: then you can only love the degree to which you 567 00:38:44,180 --> 00:38:47,859 S2: have been loved. And that's kind of what this book 568 00:38:47,860 --> 00:38:51,899 S2: is about. There's a chapter on community. We can't do 569 00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:56,700 S2: this by ourselves. Chris, I may be upset with you, 570 00:38:56,700 --> 00:39:00,180 S2: but I can't do without you. You may not like me, 571 00:39:00,180 --> 00:39:05,420 S2: but you're stuck with me. And God designed it that way. Uh, 572 00:39:05,420 --> 00:39:09,310 S2: Luther said we gotta preach the gospel to each other, 573 00:39:09,710 --> 00:39:13,549 S2: lest we become discouraged. And that's what we've done today. 574 00:39:13,870 --> 00:39:18,110 S1: Yeah. And ourselves too. That's that's the hard part. Here's 575 00:39:18,110 --> 00:39:21,030 S1: what I get. And with the whole division thing. Steve 576 00:39:21,030 --> 00:39:24,069 S1: and I, I understand it and I believe it, and 577 00:39:24,070 --> 00:39:27,589 S1: even the algorithms are meant to stir me up and 578 00:39:27,590 --> 00:39:29,950 S1: to get me mad and to get me, you know, 579 00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:32,989 S1: upset about that coach that said did this to his 580 00:39:32,989 --> 00:39:36,590 S1: player and the these fans who did this in the stands. 581 00:39:36,630 --> 00:39:39,150 S1: You know, all, all of those things that kind of 582 00:39:39,150 --> 00:39:42,950 S1: touch that nerve on the inside. But I, I look 583 00:39:42,989 --> 00:39:47,109 S1: at myself and I see the baskets that I'm able 584 00:39:47,110 --> 00:39:49,589 S1: to put people in. If you believe that if you 585 00:39:49,590 --> 00:39:51,670 S1: vote this way or you believe that about what the 586 00:39:51,670 --> 00:39:54,710 S1: Bible says, or if you. ET cetera, et cetera. If 587 00:39:54,710 --> 00:39:56,710 S1: that's what you believe, then I can put you in 588 00:39:56,710 --> 00:39:58,470 S1: a basket. And if I can put you in a basket, 589 00:39:58,469 --> 00:40:01,790 S1: I don't have to love you. I can just define 590 00:40:01,790 --> 00:40:05,310 S1: you by what I know about you, which is very little. 591 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,640 S1: and I can put you there and move on. And 592 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,800 S1: that is not love. How do we change that script? 593 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:18,480 S2: Let God love us. It becomes the you know, it's 594 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,439 S2: read first Corinthians 13. That is not a definition of 595 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,040 S2: love because you can't define it. You can only see it. 596 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,160 S2: And as you read first Corinthians 13, you see what 597 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:39,480 S2: happens when you're loved and you love, but you can't 598 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:44,360 S2: love unless you've been loved. And that's what the Christian 599 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,839 S2: faith is about. And it changes just as you described. 600 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,160 S2: I do that too. I do the same thing. I'm 601 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:56,160 S2: angry about so much you wouldn't believe, but I put 602 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,560 S2: them in baskets and then I can deal with them 603 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,719 S2: in the baskets. And God blesses. Christians are supposed to 604 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:10,120 S2: be different. And you said it right, and I, I repented. 605 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,680 S1: Isn't that what Jesus did, though, in. I mean, you 606 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:18,080 S1: don't see Jesus putting people in baskets other than even 607 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,520 S1: the Pharisees, the, you know, the religious leaders of his day. 608 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,480 S1: He spoke to them in some very harsh terms and 609 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,360 S1: kind of categorically putting them all together. But there was 610 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,799 S1: even in that there was love behind. He did not 611 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,480 S1: want them to continue on that path that they were 612 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,920 S1: on because he knew where they were headed. Right. 613 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,280 S2: And right. In fact, if you look at Luke seven, 614 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,480 S2: that's where the prostitute who, by the way, was a 615 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:51,120 S2: dumb prostitute, any prostitute that crashes the dinner party of 616 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,719 S2: a bunch of Pharisees needs to get some counseling. But 617 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,880 S2: but she did. She crashed it. And it's a radical 618 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:06,290 S2: statement of God's grace. But Jesus Was having dinner with friends, 619 00:42:06,290 --> 00:42:12,690 S2: with reaching out to even the Pharisees. So you're right. 620 00:42:12,690 --> 00:42:17,290 S2: Jesus demonstrated exactly what you said we need to do. 621 00:42:18,570 --> 00:42:23,650 S1: Tell folks about your dad because your dad loved you 622 00:42:23,650 --> 00:42:26,410 S1: and your brother immensely, didn't he? 623 00:42:27,530 --> 00:42:31,969 S2: Oh, when I first saw that verse where Jesus said, 624 00:42:32,330 --> 00:42:35,570 S2: if you then, being evil, know how to give good 625 00:42:35,570 --> 00:42:40,730 S2: gifts to your children, how much more your father in heaven? 626 00:42:40,810 --> 00:42:45,530 S2: I thought when I read that, good night. I've got 627 00:42:45,530 --> 00:42:49,530 S2: it made. I mean, if God loves me one fifth 628 00:42:49,530 --> 00:42:53,810 S2: as much as my father loves me, I listen. I 629 00:42:53,810 --> 00:42:58,089 S2: can do anything and be anything and go anywhere, and 630 00:42:58,090 --> 00:43:02,500 S2: it'll be cool. And it blew me away. But don't 631 00:43:02,500 --> 00:43:05,140 S2: get the wrong idea about my father. He was not 632 00:43:05,140 --> 00:43:09,779 S2: a Christian. He, um, he was a drunk. Sometimes he 633 00:43:09,780 --> 00:43:13,420 S2: did some really bad things. Never went to church except 634 00:43:13,420 --> 00:43:17,140 S2: when my brother or I were in a kids play 635 00:43:17,180 --> 00:43:20,819 S2: or singing or something. He'd sit in the back and 636 00:43:20,820 --> 00:43:24,060 S2: he'd leave. And he didn't go because he didn't think 637 00:43:24,060 --> 00:43:31,740 S2: he was good enough. And three months. Before he died, 638 00:43:32,260 --> 00:43:35,379 S2: his doctor gave him the bad news. Mr. Brown, you're 639 00:43:35,380 --> 00:43:39,540 S2: going to die within three months. And we're going to pray. 640 00:43:39,540 --> 00:43:41,779 S2: And then I'm going to tell you something more important 641 00:43:41,780 --> 00:43:46,340 S2: than what I just told you. And this doctor, God 642 00:43:46,340 --> 00:43:50,020 S2: bless him, led my father to Christ. And for the 643 00:43:50,020 --> 00:43:55,100 S2: first time in his life, he understood. Chris, what you 644 00:43:55,100 --> 00:43:59,100 S2: and I have been talking about this whole hour run 645 00:43:59,100 --> 00:44:02,270 S2: to Jesus. And if you do, he won't be angry. 646 00:44:04,870 --> 00:44:09,510 S1: When you heard about your dad becoming a believer. What 647 00:44:09,510 --> 00:44:10,990 S1: did that do inside of you? 648 00:44:11,989 --> 00:44:15,310 S2: Oh, listen, I've been trying to lead him to cry 649 00:44:15,310 --> 00:44:18,350 S2: until I've given up. So had everybody else. It just 650 00:44:18,350 --> 00:44:22,670 S2: wasn't going to happen. I wanted, uh, by the way, 651 00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:26,109 S2: the doctor was a seventh day Adventist. Doctor. Can you 652 00:44:26,110 --> 00:44:29,870 S2: believe that? And I'm speaking for the convention of the 653 00:44:29,870 --> 00:44:33,549 S2: Seventh day Adventist in the next 2 or 3 months, 654 00:44:33,989 --> 00:44:36,790 S2: and I'm going to tell them that story. Yes. And 655 00:44:36,790 --> 00:44:38,910 S2: I'm going to say, you know, I can't do all 656 00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:42,469 S2: of your health stuff, but I like you guys because 657 00:44:42,510 --> 00:44:48,750 S2: of what happened to my father. I was deliriously happy. 658 00:44:50,350 --> 00:44:53,110 S1: And you'll see him again, right? Right. 659 00:44:53,350 --> 00:44:54,110 S2: I won. 660 00:44:54,510 --> 00:44:56,110 S1: You will see him again. 661 00:44:56,469 --> 00:45:02,030 S2: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course. That's why I was happy, man. Yes, 662 00:45:02,030 --> 00:45:06,630 S2: I will. And, uh, and there's so many things because 663 00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:12,109 S2: I was so young. I just wasn't wise enough to know. 664 00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:15,990 S2: And I'm going to ask his forgiveness and he's going 665 00:45:16,030 --> 00:45:19,590 S2: to laugh and said, what are you talking about? Yeah. 666 00:45:19,630 --> 00:45:24,030 S2: Because God's ways are always right and we can trust him. 667 00:45:24,830 --> 00:45:29,430 S1: Steve, I agree with our, uh, person who wrote us that. 668 00:45:29,430 --> 00:45:33,510 S1: I read her message, you know? Thanks. Thanks for having 669 00:45:33,510 --> 00:45:36,469 S1: Steve on listening to him. My soul breathes a sigh 670 00:45:36,469 --> 00:45:39,750 S1: of relief. You brought that again here today, talking about 671 00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:44,190 S1: the grace of God, the love of God, forgiveness and mercy, 672 00:45:44,190 --> 00:45:48,350 S1: and that we don't have to swirl down that drain 673 00:45:48,390 --> 00:45:52,029 S1: of guilt and shame and fear and regret. He can 674 00:45:52,030 --> 00:45:55,390 S1: set us free from that. And if you go to 675 00:45:55,390 --> 00:46:00,240 S1: the website, chris.org, You'll see Steve Brown's book just released yesterday. 676 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,880 S1: God's not mad at you, Steve. All the best to you, friend. 677 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,000 S1: Come back. You're in demand here. Okay. 678 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,080 S2: Chris, you're a benediction. God bless you, brother. 679 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,879 S1: That's Steve Brown. Hope you've enjoyed the conversation today and 680 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,560 S1: hope you. If you know anybody who feels that way 681 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,600 S1: or maybe you feel that way, I'm not good enough 682 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,839 S1: to go in there. I'm not good enough to be 683 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,719 S1: with those people. There's so much better. Oh, don't you 684 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:30,040 S1: believe it, friend? Don't you believe it? The God who 685 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,600 S1: who did not hold back his only son for you, 686 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:39,920 S1: loves you with an everlasting love. Run to him. Doctor 687 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,320 S1: Heather Holloman will be with us tomorrow. Hope you can 688 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,759 S1: be too. Here on Chris Fabry live production of Moody Radio, 689 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,320 S1: a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.