1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 S1: Hi friends. Thanks so much for downloading this podcast, and 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,000 S1: I hope truly that you will hear something that will encourage, edify, equip, 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,360 S1: and enlighten you to get out there and influence and 4 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,040 S1: occupy until he comes. And on that note, may I 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,080 S1: take just a few moments here to describe this month's 6 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,920 S1: truth tool? It's by pastor Jack Hibbs. He's written the 7 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,040 S1: book called Called to Take a Bold Stand. I absolutely 8 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,520 S1: love this book because it reminds us that in Christ 9 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,480 S1: all things pass away. All things become new, that we 10 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,240 S1: are standing for his truth, that we have a new nature. 11 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,080 S1: Because of him, we should be living boldly. But far 12 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,120 S1: too often we retreat out of fear from cultural blowback. 13 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,600 S1: So I want to encourage all of us to just 14 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,800 S1: stand up for Christ, to be unashamed of who we 15 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,120 S1: are in him, and to go into a culture that's 16 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,600 S1: telling us in no uncertain terms. They're lost and they're hurting. 17 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:45,760 S1: So if you'd like a copy of Pastor Hibbs new 18 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,400 S1: book called Call to Take a Bold Stand, just give 19 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,720 S1: a gift of any amount by calling eight, seven, seven. 20 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,680 S1: Janet 58. We are listener supported radio, and this is 21 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:55,640 S1: my way of saying thank you. So that number again 22 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,300 S1: is 877 Janet 58. Or you can go online in 23 00:00:59,340 --> 00:01:02,100 S1: the market with Janet dot o r g. Go to 24 00:01:02,140 --> 00:01:04,180 S1: the bottom of the page. There's the cover of Pastor 25 00:01:04,180 --> 00:01:06,660 S1: Jack's book. Click it on, give a gift and you'll 26 00:01:06,660 --> 00:01:08,179 S1: be good to go. And we'll send you a copy 27 00:01:08,180 --> 00:01:10,060 S1: as a way of saying thank you. Don't forget, you 28 00:01:10,060 --> 00:01:12,540 S1: can also become a partial partner. Those are people who 29 00:01:12,540 --> 00:01:15,179 S1: give every single month at a level of their own choosing. 30 00:01:15,220 --> 00:01:17,179 S1: My way of saying thank you to the partial partners 31 00:01:17,180 --> 00:01:18,780 S1: is to make sure you get a copy of each 32 00:01:18,819 --> 00:01:21,619 S1: month's truth tool, and you get our weekly newsletter, which 33 00:01:21,660 --> 00:01:24,259 S1: includes some of my writing and an audio piece only 34 00:01:24,260 --> 00:01:26,780 S1: for my partial partners. So whether it's a one time 35 00:01:26,780 --> 00:01:28,619 S1: gift or you want to be an ongoing giver and 36 00:01:28,620 --> 00:01:30,899 S1: become a partial partner, that's your call. But I want 37 00:01:30,940 --> 00:01:34,060 S1: to thank you in advance. Eight seven, seven Janet 58. 38 00:01:34,060 --> 00:01:37,300 S1: Or online at In the Market with Janet Parshall. Now 39 00:01:37,300 --> 00:01:46,300 S1: please enjoy the broadcast. Hi friends, this is Janet Partial. 40 00:01:46,300 --> 00:01:48,340 S1: Thanks so much for choosing to spend the next hour 41 00:01:48,340 --> 00:01:51,540 S1: with us. Today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines 42 00:01:51,540 --> 00:01:53,660 S1: are not open. But thanks so much for being with 43 00:01:53,660 --> 00:01:55,340 S1: us and enjoy the broadcast. 44 00:01:55,660 --> 00:01:57,180 S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 45 00:01:57,570 --> 00:01:59,730 S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 46 00:01:59,930 --> 00:02:01,970 S4: Americans worshiping government over God. 47 00:02:02,050 --> 00:02:04,690 S1: Extremely rare safety move by MH. 48 00:02:04,690 --> 00:02:07,690 S5: 17 years of Palestinians and Israelis. Negotiated. 49 00:02:09,970 --> 00:02:25,410 S1: With. Hi friends. Welcome to. In the market with Janet partial. 50 00:02:25,410 --> 00:02:27,329 S1: I'm pretty sure when you and I go walking through 51 00:02:27,330 --> 00:02:29,890 S1: the marketplace of ideas, there's always going to be a 52 00:02:29,889 --> 00:02:33,250 S1: big crowd outside that booth that says Jesus because everybody's 53 00:02:33,250 --> 00:02:36,050 S1: curious about him. Don't believe me? When's the last time 54 00:02:36,050 --> 00:02:38,570 S1: you watched a film in the Lord's name wasn't taken 55 00:02:38,570 --> 00:02:41,850 S1: in vain? You don't hear them saying, oh, Hari Krishna 56 00:02:41,850 --> 00:02:45,130 S1: or L Ron Hubbard or fill in the blank. So 57 00:02:45,130 --> 00:02:49,090 S1: there's just something about that name that makes it distinctively different. 58 00:02:49,090 --> 00:02:52,410 S1: But one wonders, is there really evidence for the reality 59 00:02:52,410 --> 00:02:57,630 S1: of a Jesus? Well, I laughed because it's just so interesting, 60 00:02:57,669 --> 00:03:00,549 S1: like changing my clocks in the spring and in the fall. 61 00:03:00,750 --> 00:03:04,030 S1: I love watching cable television have apoplexy as they come 62 00:03:04,030 --> 00:03:06,670 S1: up with a new version of Jesus. Just around Easter 63 00:03:06,669 --> 00:03:09,510 S1: and just around Christmas, or standing in the checkout line 64 00:03:09,510 --> 00:03:12,549 S1: at the grocery store. The real Jesus. Or books like 65 00:03:12,590 --> 00:03:15,549 S1: when Jesus became a Christian. Yeah, I didn't make that 66 00:03:15,550 --> 00:03:18,910 S1: one up. That's real. Or when Jesus became God. So 67 00:03:18,910 --> 00:03:21,630 S1: there's all kinds of conversations about Jesus. But if I 68 00:03:21,630 --> 00:03:25,510 S1: want to know who Jesus really is, where do I go? 69 00:03:25,790 --> 00:03:28,710 S1: What proof can I find? What evidence is there? And 70 00:03:28,710 --> 00:03:31,030 S1: the law? There's a wonderful standard. It's called a preponderance 71 00:03:31,030 --> 00:03:33,470 S1: of evidence. It means there's a boatload out there. Is 72 00:03:33,470 --> 00:03:37,350 S1: there a boatload of evidence that Jesus really did, in fact, exist? 73 00:03:37,350 --> 00:03:39,510 S1: That's what we're going to talk about this hour. So 74 00:03:39,510 --> 00:03:42,190 S1: when you do get out in that marketplace of ideas, 75 00:03:42,470 --> 00:03:44,870 S1: and I hope you go because John 17 says that's 76 00:03:44,870 --> 00:03:47,190 S1: exactly where you're supposed to go, that you will be 77 00:03:47,190 --> 00:03:50,030 S1: well prepared to contend for the faith and to give 78 00:03:50,030 --> 00:03:52,430 S1: a reason for the hope that resides within you. We're 79 00:03:52,430 --> 00:03:55,140 S1: going to talk with Doctor Sean McDowell. If that last 80 00:03:55,140 --> 00:03:57,620 S1: name sounds familiar, it's because his daddy is in fact, Josh, 81 00:03:57,900 --> 00:03:59,980 S1: and he and his daddy wrote the book evidence for 82 00:03:59,980 --> 00:04:04,460 S1: Jesus Timeless Answers for Tough Questions About Christ. If you 83 00:04:04,460 --> 00:04:07,060 S1: don't know who Sean is, he's an associate prof in 84 00:04:07,060 --> 00:04:10,980 S1: the Christian apologetics program at Talbot School of Theology. He's 85 00:04:10,980 --> 00:04:13,820 S1: internationally recognized as a speaker and an author and a 86 00:04:13,820 --> 00:04:16,140 S1: co-author and an editor of a whole bunch of books. 87 00:04:16,140 --> 00:04:18,780 S1: He's a very popular YouTube channel. If you haven't seen it, 88 00:04:18,779 --> 00:04:22,580 S1: you must. It's absolutely fascinating. He not only discusses apologetics 89 00:04:22,580 --> 00:04:25,339 S1: and what's going on in the culture and worldviews, but 90 00:04:25,339 --> 00:04:29,260 S1: I love it when he brings non-believers on the show 91 00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:34,460 S1: because he really exemplifies that perfect, necessary, mandatory balance between 92 00:04:34,460 --> 00:04:39,060 S1: truth and love, doesn't acquiesce, but listens to the question 93 00:04:39,060 --> 00:04:41,100 S1: behind the question, which is a hallmark of a really 94 00:04:41,100 --> 00:04:44,060 S1: good apologist. So I'm looking forward to this conversation as 95 00:04:44,060 --> 00:04:45,700 S1: I hope you are friends. And Sean, I want to 96 00:04:45,700 --> 00:04:48,260 S1: thank you. I'm thrilled that we get to spend an 97 00:04:48,260 --> 00:04:51,300 S1: hour talking about apologetics. I'd rather do that than get 98 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:53,320 S1: my nails done on any day of the week. So 99 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:54,520 S1: thank you for being here. 100 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,640 S6: Hey men to that, I'm ready to go. Thanks for 101 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,719 S6: such a great introduction. That was fun. 102 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,640 S1: Oh, Sean, do you do this in the book? And 103 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,120 S1: I was thinking, I don't think there are a lot 104 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,560 S1: of people that maybe haven't heard this story, but your 105 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,839 S1: dad asks you basically to share how you came to faith. 106 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:11,920 S1: And I wasn't going to ask this question because people 107 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,880 S1: are going, oh, well, the apple doesn't fall far from 108 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,279 S1: the tree. I mean, his dad was Josh McDowell. Of course, 109 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,360 S1: he's going to be a believer in Christ. But you know, 110 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,560 S1: that's Billy Sunday who said standing in a car in 111 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:22,520 S1: a garage doesn't make you a car any more than 112 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,599 S1: being raised in a Christian home makes you a Christian. 113 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,440 S1: So how did you decide that Jesus is who he 114 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:28,279 S1: said he is? 115 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,200 S6: Yeah, we really start this book with my dad's story, which, 116 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,760 S6: you know, just a dramatic search for truth from a 117 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,440 S6: broken background set out to actually disprove Christianity before there 118 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:44,320 S6: was really any modern apologetics movement whatsoever. And then at 119 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:45,680 S6: the end of the book, we kind of start with 120 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,960 S6: my journey growing up in a Christian home. And I 121 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,109 S6: think if you had asked me, Janet, in high school 122 00:05:50,110 --> 00:05:53,430 S6: or younger? Why doesn't someone believe in Jesus? I probably 123 00:05:53,430 --> 00:05:55,750 S6: would have said something. Maybe not these words, but I 124 00:05:55,750 --> 00:05:58,150 S6: would have thought, well, they just haven't read my dad's book. Like, 125 00:05:58,150 --> 00:06:00,830 S6: how hard is it? There's the evidence. But when I 126 00:06:00,830 --> 00:06:03,589 S6: got into college, it's like the mid 90s, I really 127 00:06:03,589 --> 00:06:05,710 S6: started to have a lot of questions and doubts about 128 00:06:05,710 --> 00:06:10,589 S6: my faith. A lot of the secular atheist web began 129 00:06:10,950 --> 00:06:14,310 S6: responding to my dad's book, Evidence That Demands a Verdict 130 00:06:14,510 --> 00:06:18,349 S6: chapter by chapter. And I remember getting on the internet 131 00:06:18,350 --> 00:06:22,109 S6: and just searching around and discovering these philosophers and historians 132 00:06:22,110 --> 00:06:26,830 S6: and and medical doctors dissecting the book. And I had 133 00:06:26,830 --> 00:06:29,950 S6: never heard smart people push back like that. And it 134 00:06:29,950 --> 00:06:33,230 S6: just unsettled my faith. And I guess to make a 135 00:06:33,270 --> 00:06:35,590 S6: long story short, I remember telling my dad, yeah, I 136 00:06:35,589 --> 00:06:37,589 S6: want to know what's true, but I'm not sure I'm 137 00:06:37,950 --> 00:06:41,030 S6: really convinced this is true. And he didn't freak out. 138 00:06:41,310 --> 00:06:44,510 S6: You know, the cup is 98% full to my dad. 139 00:06:44,510 --> 00:06:47,930 S6: He's the consummate optimist. And he just said, hey, I 140 00:06:47,930 --> 00:06:50,610 S6: love you no matter what. And seek after truth. If 141 00:06:50,650 --> 00:06:53,810 S6: you do that, I'm confident you'll keep believing in Jesus. And, 142 00:06:54,089 --> 00:06:57,969 S6: you know, really just gave me the relational and emotional 143 00:06:57,970 --> 00:07:01,289 S6: and intellectual space I needed to just kind of own 144 00:07:01,330 --> 00:07:02,969 S6: my own faith, so to speak. 145 00:07:03,010 --> 00:07:05,530 S1: Yeah. That's funny. I was just thinking the word you 146 00:07:05,529 --> 00:07:07,290 S1: had to own it and then you came out of 147 00:07:07,290 --> 00:07:09,850 S1: your mouth. So and I think that for lots of parents, 148 00:07:09,850 --> 00:07:12,250 S1: by the way, take note of what Sean just said. 149 00:07:12,250 --> 00:07:14,890 S1: So you don't have a panic attack if they decide 150 00:07:14,890 --> 00:07:17,890 S1: that they're going to do some examination and questioning, because 151 00:07:17,930 --> 00:07:21,370 S1: in the end they come to Christ individually. They were 152 00:07:21,890 --> 00:07:24,930 S1: paid for through the propitiation of the sins of what? 153 00:07:25,210 --> 00:07:28,210 S1: Of their sins individually. So give them some space to 154 00:07:28,210 --> 00:07:30,250 S1: be able to do some breathing here. And don't panic. 155 00:07:30,530 --> 00:07:32,130 S1: But I will tell you that the prayers of a 156 00:07:32,130 --> 00:07:34,570 S1: righteous mom and dad availeth much. So you keep banging 157 00:07:34,570 --> 00:07:36,570 S1: on the doors of heaven for your kids. You said 158 00:07:36,570 --> 00:07:38,450 S1: something earlier. I want to go back because, you know, 159 00:07:38,490 --> 00:07:40,330 S1: a lot of us cut our teeth on your dad's stuff. 160 00:07:40,370 --> 00:07:43,610 S1: And when evidence that demands a verdict came out in 1972, 161 00:07:43,930 --> 00:07:47,150 S1: and at that time, if you walked into a Christian bookstore. Well, 162 00:07:47,150 --> 00:07:49,470 S1: there's an idea. A brick and mortar store. How old 163 00:07:49,470 --> 00:07:51,830 S1: am I? Where you could walk in. And if you 164 00:07:51,870 --> 00:07:54,150 S1: were lucky, you would find a couple of books on 165 00:07:54,150 --> 00:07:57,510 S1: the bottom of a shelf dealing with apologetics. And I'm 166 00:07:57,510 --> 00:07:59,350 S1: wondering if there was a time where we kind of 167 00:07:59,390 --> 00:08:04,429 S1: pushed back with a kind of anti-intellectualism reaction where we thought, no, 168 00:08:04,630 --> 00:08:06,470 S1: it's about my heart, it's not about my head, and 169 00:08:06,470 --> 00:08:09,390 S1: I don't really need to know what I believe and 170 00:08:09,390 --> 00:08:11,630 S1: why I believe it. Hat tip to Doctor Paul Little, 171 00:08:11,670 --> 00:08:14,950 S1: his great book. And people just kind of push back. 172 00:08:14,950 --> 00:08:19,230 S1: But then the culture began, began decaying at a record rate. 173 00:08:19,430 --> 00:08:22,390 S1: And now, especially if you're out there evangelizing and I 174 00:08:22,390 --> 00:08:25,950 S1: hope that you are, you really have to come prepared 175 00:08:25,950 --> 00:08:28,590 S1: to know how to hear the question behind the question 176 00:08:28,590 --> 00:08:32,550 S1: and to really put the athleticism of contending into the faith. 177 00:08:32,750 --> 00:08:35,390 S1: Why is it important to study apologetics? And how do 178 00:08:35,390 --> 00:08:39,110 S1: we waylay this mythology that says it's an academicians toy? 179 00:08:39,110 --> 00:08:41,069 S1: It has nothing to do with the average believer? 180 00:08:41,110 --> 00:08:43,150 S6: Well, you're right, how far we've come. And I think 181 00:08:43,150 --> 00:08:46,420 S6: there's two concerns. One is within the church, there's a 182 00:08:46,460 --> 00:08:50,340 S6: lot of people who just talk about an experiential faith 183 00:08:50,340 --> 00:08:53,780 S6: and feelings, and I think our feelings matter and we 184 00:08:53,780 --> 00:08:57,380 S6: can experience God personally, but we got to know that 185 00:08:57,380 --> 00:09:01,340 S6: it's true to live out a confident faith with convictions. 186 00:09:01,340 --> 00:09:03,939 S6: And the Scripture talks about that a lot. 187 00:09:03,980 --> 00:09:04,380 S3: Wow. 188 00:09:04,660 --> 00:09:07,660 S1: The book is filled with questions, which are my favorite kinds, 189 00:09:07,660 --> 00:09:10,660 S1: by the way, because then you have to answer the question. 190 00:09:10,660 --> 00:09:14,340 S1: And so Doctor Sean McDowell, who knows something about teaching, 191 00:09:14,540 --> 00:09:18,380 S1: really gets you to own the information and evidence for Jesus. 192 00:09:18,420 --> 00:09:22,260 S1: It provides timeless answers for tough questions about Christ. We're 193 00:09:22,260 --> 00:09:24,620 S1: going to examine some of those questions right after this. 194 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,679 S1: Are you living with a biblically based, passionate faith, or 195 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,320 S1: are you pulling back from letting your light shine? That's 196 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,400 S1: why I've chosen Cole to take a bold stand as 197 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,040 S1: this month's truth tool. Learn how to influence the culture 198 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,720 S1: for Christ in a transformative way. As for your copy 199 00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,600 S1: of call to take a bold stand when you give 200 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,439 S1: a gift of any amount to in the market, call 877. 201 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,000 S1: Janet 58. That's 877. Janet 58. Or go to in 202 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,400 S1: the market with Janet dot o r g. In their 203 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,560 S1: book evidence for Jesus, Josh McDowell and his son Sean 204 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,720 S1: McDowell break the book up into seven different sections. The 205 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,080 S1: first is the historical evidence for Jesus. The second is 206 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,480 S1: the identity of Jesus. The third section is why Jesus 207 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,520 S1: is unique. Section four is Jesus is not a copycat Savior. 208 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:33,240 S1: Number five How Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy. Six evidence 209 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,000 S1: for the Resurrection of Jesus. And last but certainly not least, 210 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,719 S1: why the resurrection of Jesus matters. And what I love 211 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,790 S1: about this book is that even though Doctor Sean McDowell 212 00:10:42,830 --> 00:10:46,309 S1: teaches as an associate prof at the Talbot School of 213 00:10:46,309 --> 00:10:51,189 S1: Theology in their Christian apologetics department, this isn't. This isn't an. 214 00:10:51,429 --> 00:10:53,630 S1: At a level where you go, well, no, that's above 215 00:10:53,630 --> 00:10:55,990 S1: my pay grade. These are just a user friendly book 216 00:10:55,990 --> 00:10:57,950 S1: that will help you be able. Because you're going to 217 00:10:57,950 --> 00:10:59,670 S1: get asked this question. If you get out of your 218 00:10:59,670 --> 00:11:02,350 S1: little tent and get into the marketplace of ideas, somebody's 219 00:11:02,350 --> 00:11:04,150 S1: going to ask you one of these questions. And I 220 00:11:04,150 --> 00:11:06,150 S1: don't know about you, but don't you want to be prepared? 221 00:11:06,190 --> 00:11:07,630 S1: And that means you're going to roll up your sleeves, 222 00:11:07,630 --> 00:11:09,470 S1: means you got to do a bit of homework, turn 223 00:11:09,470 --> 00:11:12,309 S1: off all the gadgets and the devices, be still, open 224 00:11:12,309 --> 00:11:14,310 S1: up the Word of God, get into His word and 225 00:11:14,309 --> 00:11:17,030 S1: find out is there really evidence for Jesus? And I'm 226 00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:19,990 S1: so glad, Sean, that you start with the question about, 227 00:11:19,990 --> 00:11:23,510 S1: can we use the Bible for historical evidence of Jesus? Because, 228 00:11:23,790 --> 00:11:27,270 S1: you know, if people think that the book is written 229 00:11:27,270 --> 00:11:30,750 S1: by ignorant Bedouins through oral tradition, and there wasn't a 230 00:11:30,750 --> 00:11:34,150 S1: single eyewitness except for 500 years after the facts, their 231 00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:36,470 S1: attitude is, I don't care what you can quote, I 232 00:11:36,470 --> 00:11:40,770 S1: don't believe a thing in that book. So it's interesting. 233 00:11:40,770 --> 00:11:42,770 S1: So how do I prove text if I'm talking to 234 00:11:42,770 --> 00:11:45,730 S1: somebody who doesn't even believe in the reality, the authenticity, 235 00:11:45,730 --> 00:11:47,850 S1: the historicity of that book to begin with? 236 00:11:48,010 --> 00:11:49,690 S6: Well, I like to ask a question. I say, if 237 00:11:49,690 --> 00:11:52,450 S6: you want to know about ancient Rome, do you begin 238 00:11:52,450 --> 00:11:56,250 S6: by discounting Roman sources? If you want to know about 239 00:11:56,250 --> 00:11:58,930 S6: ancient Greece, do you start off by saying, hey, give 240 00:11:58,929 --> 00:12:03,450 S6: me proof about what happened? Apart from, you know, sources 241 00:12:03,450 --> 00:12:06,530 S6: written in Greek? Well, of course not. The question is, 242 00:12:06,530 --> 00:12:09,530 S6: is it a reliable Roman writer? Is it a reliable 243 00:12:09,530 --> 00:12:13,410 S6: Greek writer? Well, the same should be true of the Bible. Yes, 244 00:12:13,410 --> 00:12:16,810 S6: they're biased sources in one sense, but so is every 245 00:12:16,809 --> 00:12:19,610 S6: book that has ever been written. I mean, the end 246 00:12:19,610 --> 00:12:22,130 S6: of the Gospel of John, John says, these things are written. 247 00:12:22,130 --> 00:12:25,890 S6: So you might believe and by believing have eternal life. Sure, 248 00:12:25,890 --> 00:12:29,050 S6: there's a bias there, but the question is, what is 249 00:12:29,050 --> 00:12:32,930 S6: that bias? Does it drive him to care about preserving 250 00:12:32,929 --> 00:12:36,800 S6: and writing truth? And if we just approach the New 251 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,480 S6: Testament documents. I think the way we would any other 252 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,840 S6: historical document in terms of is there archaeological support? Is 253 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:49,600 S6: there internal signs of evidence? Are these eyewitness accounts? Do 254 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,320 S6: they have the ring of authenticity? You began to discover 255 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,760 S6: pretty quickly that, yes, the New Testament documents are religious documents, 256 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,840 S6: but they're historically accurate, they're reliable, and they give us 257 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,720 S6: a good window into the first century. In fact, the 258 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,319 S6: best window into the first century of the life of 259 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:09,600 S6: Jesus and beyond. 260 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,000 S1: Yeah. You write about this in the same section of 261 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,520 S1: the book, and I think it's imperative that we understand this. 262 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:19,840 S1: Are there, in fact, extrabiblical authentications of the reality of 263 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:21,079 S1: Jesus of Nazareth? 264 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,720 S6: Yes there are. Now, I would say this, Janet, even 265 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:28,480 S6: if there weren't, I still think the Gospels are sufficiently 266 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,880 S6: reliable historical accounts, even if we didn't have a single 267 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,939 S6: account outside of the Bible. Now with that said, we 268 00:13:36,940 --> 00:13:40,500 S6: do have accounts. We have Josephus, for example, who's writing 269 00:13:40,500 --> 00:13:42,580 S6: at the end of the first century, and I think 270 00:13:42,580 --> 00:13:47,260 S6: there's at least two legitimate references to Jesus, to his death, 271 00:13:47,260 --> 00:13:50,819 S6: that he was considered a messiah, the brother of James. 272 00:13:50,820 --> 00:13:54,460 S6: Some basic facts in a Jewish writer. We have Tacitus, 273 00:13:54,460 --> 00:13:58,580 S6: who lived from 8056 to 120, and he writes probably 274 00:13:58,580 --> 00:14:02,140 S6: around 115 in his in his annals, he refers to 275 00:14:02,179 --> 00:14:07,300 S6: Jesus and actually talks about Christians being persecuted and Jesus 276 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:12,900 S6: dying during the reign of Tiberius Caesar by Pontius Pilate. Uh, 277 00:14:12,940 --> 00:14:17,620 S6: we have other sources. So you actually find a remarkable 278 00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:23,100 S6: amount for Jesus being, uh, having no public, uh, really 279 00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:26,700 S6: ministry beyond 2 to 3 years, maybe 150 miles. He 280 00:14:26,700 --> 00:14:31,340 S6: had no military power, no government position. And yet we 281 00:14:31,340 --> 00:14:36,530 S6: have some writings outside the Gospels. It's pretty remarkable what 282 00:14:36,530 --> 00:14:38,410 S6: we can piece together about him. 283 00:14:38,450 --> 00:14:41,090 S1: Yeah, absolutely. Let me and I won't go too deep 284 00:14:41,090 --> 00:14:43,570 S1: in the weeds on this. But, um, when I first 285 00:14:43,570 --> 00:14:47,170 S1: married my husband, he was gaga about biblical archaeology. And 286 00:14:47,170 --> 00:14:49,210 S1: I used to yawn and think, oh, it's so boring. 287 00:14:49,210 --> 00:14:52,210 S1: It's just dusty. In fact, it's really interesting in your 288 00:14:52,210 --> 00:14:54,090 S1: first year of marriage, when your husband goes, can I 289 00:14:54,090 --> 00:14:57,370 S1: get a subscription to Biblical Archaeology as my Christmas present? 290 00:14:57,370 --> 00:15:01,330 S1: So he, he wooed me into this and I suddenly realized, wow, 291 00:15:01,370 --> 00:15:03,530 S1: this is like being Sherlock Holmes. And it just affirms 292 00:15:03,530 --> 00:15:06,610 S1: and affirms and affirms. So I read not too long ago, again, 293 00:15:06,610 --> 00:15:10,290 S1: about an ancient manuscript that was found under several layers, 294 00:15:10,290 --> 00:15:12,210 S1: and there was a part of the section of the 295 00:15:12,210 --> 00:15:15,130 S1: book of Matthew. So when we talk about the codex 296 00:15:15,130 --> 00:15:17,490 S1: and we talk about these manuscripts that are in museums 297 00:15:17,490 --> 00:15:20,810 S1: all over Europe, even if you started out from a 298 00:15:20,810 --> 00:15:24,010 S1: skeptic's vantage point, wouldn't you have to say that there's 299 00:15:24,010 --> 00:15:27,250 S1: something about the continuity of the message in these fragments, 300 00:15:27,250 --> 00:15:31,550 S1: in the scrolls, in these different pieces of archaeological evidence 301 00:15:31,550 --> 00:15:33,150 S1: that say there's something here. 302 00:15:34,110 --> 00:15:36,350 S6: Well, I think we do. I think many people, if 303 00:15:36,350 --> 00:15:41,070 S6: we just archaeologically and textually approach the Gospels the way 304 00:15:41,070 --> 00:15:44,870 S6: we do any other ancient book would have to realize 305 00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:50,310 S6: we have a very carefully preserved and early text that 306 00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:52,870 S6: we need to take seriously. Now, I love hearing that 307 00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:57,150 S6: your husband likes archaeology. Probably my favorite chapter in the book, 308 00:15:57,150 --> 00:15:59,710 S6: which is not in evidence that demands a verdict. It's 309 00:15:59,710 --> 00:16:03,750 S6: a totally fresh chapter, is on the archaeological evidence that 310 00:16:03,750 --> 00:16:07,550 S6: confirms Jesus. And we walk through some of the people, 311 00:16:07,550 --> 00:16:12,630 S6: like obscure figures like Lysanias in Luke chapter three, uh, 312 00:16:12,670 --> 00:16:15,830 S6: in which an inscription is found of him, Pontius Pilate, 313 00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:21,910 S6: a stone inscription, Caiaphas an ossuary, the three Herod's that 314 00:16:21,910 --> 00:16:25,950 S6: the New Testament talks about coins and other evidence for 315 00:16:25,950 --> 00:16:32,490 S6: their existence. Places like Bethlehem and Nazareth, the pool of Bethesda, Capernaum. 316 00:16:32,810 --> 00:16:35,290 S6: On and on. We haven't found everything in the Gospels 317 00:16:35,290 --> 00:16:39,090 S6: because some stuff is destroyed. Sometimes names change. There's some 318 00:16:39,090 --> 00:16:42,530 S6: things we don't know. But over and over again, where 319 00:16:42,530 --> 00:16:45,970 S6: Jesus was born, where he ministered, where he died. We 320 00:16:45,970 --> 00:16:51,290 S6: have archaeological evidence confirming these claims, which lends credibility to 321 00:16:51,330 --> 00:16:52,850 S6: the story that you're talking about. 322 00:16:52,890 --> 00:16:55,250 S1: Yeah, exactly. By the way, in case you haven't figured 323 00:16:55,250 --> 00:16:57,410 S1: it out yet, I just love this book. I often 324 00:16:57,410 --> 00:17:00,170 S1: talk to you about building a legacy library. It's the 325 00:17:00,170 --> 00:17:02,570 S1: kind of library that should the Lord call you home, 326 00:17:02,570 --> 00:17:05,330 S1: your children, and should the Lord tarry your grandchildren get 327 00:17:05,330 --> 00:17:08,010 S1: these books right in the margins. I know every time 328 00:17:08,010 --> 00:17:10,170 S1: I say that, I can just hear the librarians grabbing 329 00:17:10,170 --> 00:17:12,930 S1: the smelling salts, but right in the margins, a date 330 00:17:12,930 --> 00:17:14,970 S1: when the Lord said something to you, what it meant 331 00:17:14,970 --> 00:17:17,690 S1: to you, the significance of the passage that you've just read, 332 00:17:17,850 --> 00:17:20,170 S1: and it'll be there for your family. This evidence for 333 00:17:20,170 --> 00:17:22,930 S1: Jesus is what I would call part of the basic 334 00:17:22,930 --> 00:17:26,250 S1: library you need to have, so that the questions about 335 00:17:26,250 --> 00:17:29,080 S1: Jesus that we will hear, that you have heard, are 336 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,600 S1: going to hear out in the marketplace. Come with beautiful 337 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,040 S1: answers so that you're ready and prepared to give that 338 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:45,960 S1: answer back after this. Evidence for Jesus, brand new book 339 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,680 S1: by Doctor Sean McDowell and his dad, Josh McDowell. It's 340 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,960 S1: filled with questions, wonderful questions about Jesus and the overwhelming 341 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,760 S1: evidence that he is exactly who he said he is. 342 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,280 S1: There's so many sections of the book I want to 343 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:04,520 S1: go to if I can. This idea about Jesus being God, I. 344 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,160 S1: Abraham Lincoln said, if you're going to be a good lawyer, 345 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,000 S1: you spend 20% of your time preparing your case, 80% 346 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,840 S1: of your time preparing your opponent's case. So Craig and 347 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,719 S1: I have a whole section in our library, and we 348 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:16,520 S1: got books everywhere in our house, but we have a 349 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,479 S1: whole section that we call heresy. And it's fun for 350 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,400 S1: us to go through some of these books because there 351 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,840 S1: are titles like When Jesus became a Christian or when 352 00:18:24,980 --> 00:18:27,940 S1: Jesus became God. And you can't make these titles up or, 353 00:18:27,980 --> 00:18:30,500 S1: you know, or misquoting Jesus. Thank you, Bart Ehrman. And 354 00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:33,060 S1: the list goes on and on and on. So you, 355 00:18:33,060 --> 00:18:35,220 S1: you tackle some of these questions and I'm so glad 356 00:18:35,220 --> 00:18:38,140 S1: that you do because if we let the world teach 357 00:18:38,180 --> 00:18:42,100 S1: us theology, we're going to fall. Okay. And that happens 358 00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:45,100 S1: far too many cases. Oh, it's a slick documentary on 359 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:47,060 S1: one of those cable channels, and they've got a bunch 360 00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:50,420 S1: of people from Oxford, Yale and where else? And they're 361 00:18:50,420 --> 00:18:53,020 S1: throwing stones from the Jesus seminar to decide whether or 362 00:18:53,020 --> 00:18:54,500 S1: not it's true. And the next thing you know, you're 363 00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:57,140 S1: eating a bowl of popcorn going, yeah, that must be right. 364 00:18:57,340 --> 00:18:59,620 S1: Rather than being a good Berean and testing all things. 365 00:18:59,619 --> 00:19:01,780 S1: So let's just cut to the chase and do some testing. 366 00:19:02,060 --> 00:19:03,820 S1: Did Jesus claim to be God? 367 00:19:04,980 --> 00:19:07,860 S6: That's exactly the right question to start with. And then 368 00:19:07,859 --> 00:19:10,020 S6: we want to look at what did others think who 369 00:19:10,060 --> 00:19:14,260 S6: are with Jesus, and is there circumstantial evidence that supports this? 370 00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:18,020 S6: But I think it's really clear that Jesus said he 371 00:19:18,020 --> 00:19:20,659 S6: was God. Not in those exact words. Of course, he 372 00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:24,970 S6: didn't speak English, but he said stuff in his context 373 00:19:25,170 --> 00:19:29,530 S6: that showed his divine authority, and he did things that 374 00:19:29,530 --> 00:19:32,610 S6: only God could do. So we see this, for example, 375 00:19:32,609 --> 00:19:36,930 S6: in John chapter ten, where Jesus says, I and the 376 00:19:36,930 --> 00:19:41,010 S6: father are one. Now, if he just meant I have 377 00:19:41,010 --> 00:19:43,609 S6: the same purpose as the father, they wouldn't have picked 378 00:19:43,609 --> 00:19:48,250 S6: up stones to stone him to death. He says in 379 00:19:48,250 --> 00:19:51,210 S6: John five, he says, my father's been working until now 380 00:19:51,210 --> 00:19:55,010 S6: and I have been working. And it says that the 381 00:19:55,010 --> 00:19:57,810 S6: religious leaders at that time want to kill him for 382 00:19:57,850 --> 00:20:01,010 S6: making that statement. And then even I think in some 383 00:20:01,010 --> 00:20:04,210 S6: ways even more clear in John eight, the religious leaders 384 00:20:04,210 --> 00:20:06,210 S6: say to him, you're not even 50 years old yet, 385 00:20:06,210 --> 00:20:09,929 S6: and yet you have seen Abraham. And Jesus said, most assuredly, 386 00:20:09,930 --> 00:20:14,690 S6: I say to you, before Abraham was, I am. And 387 00:20:14,690 --> 00:20:19,330 S6: it's really clear that Jesus is referring to Exodus chapter three. 388 00:20:19,330 --> 00:20:22,670 S6: When God shows up to Moses and says, I am 389 00:20:23,150 --> 00:20:27,070 S6: who I am. Now, this isn't just in John, in 390 00:20:27,070 --> 00:20:30,910 S6: the last gospel. Mark, most scholars think, is the earliest gospel. 391 00:20:31,710 --> 00:20:36,910 S6: Jesus forgives authority in Mark. I'm sorry Jesus forgives sins 392 00:20:36,910 --> 00:20:40,950 S6: in Mark chapter two, showing that he speaks and acts 393 00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:46,230 S6: with God's authority directly. When he walks on water, this 394 00:20:46,230 --> 00:20:50,590 S6: is a divine sign. He has authority over the Sabbath. 395 00:20:50,590 --> 00:20:53,149 S6: He's showing them. Since God is the one who established 396 00:20:53,150 --> 00:20:56,870 S6: the Sabbath. Jesus changing it is saying, yeah, I stand 397 00:20:56,869 --> 00:20:59,390 S6: in the stead of God. And of course, at the 398 00:20:59,390 --> 00:21:03,109 S6: end of Mark, you have the gospel Jesus on trial 399 00:21:03,109 --> 00:21:06,830 S6: in chapter 14. He's asked about his identity and he 400 00:21:06,830 --> 00:21:09,910 S6: really quotes, is he the Messiah, the one he quotes 401 00:21:09,950 --> 00:21:14,630 S6: from Daniel chapter seven about this divine figure who's coming, 402 00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:19,700 S6: the Son of Man. And Jesus basically says, yeah, that's me. 403 00:21:20,180 --> 00:21:23,379 S6: So I think from Mark, through all the Gospels, Jesus 404 00:21:23,380 --> 00:21:26,460 S6: did and said things to make it very clear that 405 00:21:26,460 --> 00:21:28,459 S6: He is God in human flesh. 406 00:21:29,340 --> 00:21:31,860 S1: So let me this is just my $0.02. Just kind 407 00:21:31,859 --> 00:21:34,500 S1: of waxing philosophical for a second. Why I think this 408 00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:37,139 S1: is a sticky wicket for so many people is because 409 00:21:37,140 --> 00:21:40,220 S1: if the answer to the question is yes, Jesus claimed 410 00:21:40,220 --> 00:21:42,179 S1: to be God and used all what all of the 411 00:21:42,180 --> 00:21:44,140 S1: evidence that you just shared. And there's more where that 412 00:21:44,140 --> 00:21:47,260 S1: came from. Um, then you are stuck with the second 413 00:21:47,260 --> 00:21:50,220 S1: follow up question, which is what then must I do 414 00:21:50,220 --> 00:21:53,380 S1: with him? You know, and this is the C.S. Lewis posture, right? 415 00:21:53,380 --> 00:21:55,699 S1: So he's either a liar, lunatic, or Lord because you 416 00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:58,700 S1: cannot ignore him if he is who he said he is, 417 00:21:58,700 --> 00:22:01,300 S1: then that puts an onus on the shoulders of every 418 00:22:01,340 --> 00:22:05,260 S1: single person that ever was, is, or will be on 419 00:22:05,260 --> 00:22:07,500 S1: what do you do with this Jesus? And I think 420 00:22:07,660 --> 00:22:10,860 S1: that's why it's a Christ of their own construction that 421 00:22:10,859 --> 00:22:12,939 S1: we get over and over and over again because it 422 00:22:12,980 --> 00:22:16,220 S1: delays or it obscures the question of, now, what must 423 00:22:16,220 --> 00:22:18,200 S1: I do with him if you can make him manageable. 424 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,240 S1: Tamable and and a savior of your own construction if 425 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,680 S1: you deem him to be a savior at all. Then 426 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,440 S1: you avoid the choice. Because the choice. Well, it's. It's best. 427 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,760 S1: Carl's wager, isn't it? I mean, if I'm wrong and 428 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,720 S1: you're right, you've lost nothing. If I'm right and you're wrong, 429 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,919 S1: you've lost everything. So this is this is the tough point. 430 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:35,800 S1: It seems to me. 431 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,480 S6: This is what makes Christianity different than every other religion is. 432 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,840 S6: Other religions point towards truth, other religions point towards salvation 433 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,240 S6: and maybe some kind of eternal life. Jesus said, I 434 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,720 S6: am the way, the truth, and the life that he, 435 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,320 S6: his very life represents this. And that's why he said 436 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,520 S6: the most important question you could ask is, who do 437 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,520 S6: you say that I am? Now, why is that question matter? 438 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,919 S6: Because if Jesus is God, that means I've got to 439 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,480 S6: rethink what I do with my time. God rethink what 440 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,960 S6: I do with my relationships. God rethink what I do 441 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,280 S6: with my body. And that if Jesus made that and 442 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,420 S6: we have his words accurately. Then, like Paul writes, talks 443 00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:21,740 S6: about loving God and others with our bodies because we've 444 00:23:21,740 --> 00:23:25,900 S6: been bought with a price. Our bodies are not our own. 445 00:23:26,340 --> 00:23:29,820 S6: If Jesus is God, it changes how I handle my money. 446 00:23:30,140 --> 00:23:35,140 S6: It changes everything. So other historical figures. Sorry to any 447 00:23:35,180 --> 00:23:38,660 S6: history buffs that are out there or teachers. It matters 448 00:23:38,660 --> 00:23:42,540 S6: what we believe about history, but not for eternity. What 449 00:23:42,540 --> 00:23:46,380 S6: we believe about Jesus changes everything for eternity, and it 450 00:23:46,380 --> 00:23:49,220 S6: also changes everything in the present. 451 00:23:49,619 --> 00:23:52,859 S1: Wow. Don't you love these kinds of conversations? This program 452 00:23:52,859 --> 00:23:55,459 S1: is designed to help you think critically and biblically. And 453 00:23:55,460 --> 00:23:57,820 S1: by the way, that's not an either or. It is 454 00:23:57,820 --> 00:24:00,820 S1: a both end. And so I love the fact that 455 00:24:00,820 --> 00:24:02,380 S1: you can take time out of your day and just 456 00:24:02,380 --> 00:24:05,380 S1: set your mind on things above and start thinking deeply 457 00:24:05,380 --> 00:24:10,020 S1: about these important questions, because the gospel changes everything. The 458 00:24:10,020 --> 00:24:13,060 S1: book is called evidence for Jesus. You should have a 459 00:24:13,060 --> 00:24:16,890 S1: copy in your house, period. End of statement. Co-authored by 460 00:24:16,890 --> 00:24:19,970 S1: Doctor Sean McDowell and his dad, Josh McDowell. And it's 461 00:24:19,970 --> 00:24:22,489 S1: a myriad of questions that really are going to be 462 00:24:22,490 --> 00:24:25,890 S1: asked about Jesus, but they provide beautiful answers in their 463 00:24:25,890 --> 00:24:42,170 S1: book to everyone of these questions back after this. How 464 00:24:42,170 --> 00:24:44,530 S1: often do you tune into in the market? Once or 465 00:24:44,530 --> 00:24:47,250 S1: twice a week, every day. If this program is valuable 466 00:24:47,250 --> 00:24:49,810 S1: to you, why not become a partial partner? Your financial 467 00:24:49,810 --> 00:24:52,570 S1: support is invaluable as we apply God's Word to current 468 00:24:52,570 --> 00:24:55,210 S1: events in modern culture. Knowing we can count on your 469 00:24:55,210 --> 00:24:58,210 S1: monthly gift encourages us to deliver relevant and up to 470 00:24:58,250 --> 00:25:01,290 S1: date content every day. Become a partial partner today by 471 00:25:01,290 --> 00:25:04,690 S1: calling eight seven, seven Janet 58 or go online to 472 00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:11,370 S1: In the Market with Janet Parshall. Doctor Sean McDowell is 473 00:25:11,369 --> 00:25:14,030 S1: with us. He and his dad, Josh McDowell, have co-authored 474 00:25:14,030 --> 00:25:18,189 S1: the book evidence for Jesus Timeless Answers for Tough Questions 475 00:25:18,190 --> 00:25:20,830 S1: About Christ. Absolutely fabulous book, by the way. In our 476 00:25:20,830 --> 00:25:22,389 S1: info page, I have a link to the book so 477 00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:24,470 S1: you can click on through and learn how to get 478 00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:26,990 S1: your copy. I also have a link to Sean's website 479 00:25:26,990 --> 00:25:30,190 S1: as well. He is also among the panoply of things 480 00:25:30,190 --> 00:25:33,870 S1: that he does. He is also an associate professor in 481 00:25:33,910 --> 00:25:37,790 S1: Talbot School of Theology's Christian Apologetics Program at Biola University. 482 00:25:37,830 --> 00:25:40,070 S1: He's got a wonderful YouTube channel. If you haven't checked 483 00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:43,389 S1: it out, do it because he discusses culture and worldview, 484 00:25:43,390 --> 00:25:46,990 S1: and he talks to all kinds of people, including non-believers. 485 00:25:46,990 --> 00:25:49,230 S1: And as I noted when we started our conversation, it's 486 00:25:49,230 --> 00:25:52,230 S1: a tutorial on how to comport yourself with someone who 487 00:25:52,230 --> 00:25:54,669 S1: does not yet know Christ as their personal Savior. They 488 00:25:54,670 --> 00:25:57,350 S1: are not the enemy, by the way. Um, and so 489 00:25:57,350 --> 00:25:59,790 S1: this idea of going back and forth with questions and 490 00:25:59,790 --> 00:26:03,270 S1: listening with the ears on your heart, very, very powerful 491 00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:05,990 S1: tool when you're trying to share the gospel of Jesus Christ. 492 00:26:06,109 --> 00:26:08,030 S1: So there isn't a section of the book I don't like, 493 00:26:08,030 --> 00:26:09,629 S1: but I really want to get to the part about 494 00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:12,980 S1: Jesus is not a copycat savior. First you have to 495 00:26:12,980 --> 00:26:14,699 S1: explain that what you mean to our friends when you 496 00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:16,540 S1: say he's not a copycat savior, and then talk to 497 00:26:16,540 --> 00:26:19,820 S1: me about the features of mystery religions. 498 00:26:20,260 --> 00:26:22,540 S6: Thanks so much for asking this question, Janet. The reason 499 00:26:22,540 --> 00:26:25,139 S6: this one hits home for me is because when I 500 00:26:25,180 --> 00:26:27,660 S6: told the story at the beginning of our interview, when 501 00:26:27,660 --> 00:26:30,820 S6: I got online in the 90s and discovered all these 502 00:26:30,820 --> 00:26:34,460 S6: challenges to the Christian faith, this was the objection I 503 00:26:34,460 --> 00:26:36,980 S6: first heard. I had never heard of these stories, like 504 00:26:36,980 --> 00:26:42,340 S6: Mithras and Osiris and Adonis were allegedly exactly the same 505 00:26:42,340 --> 00:26:46,659 S6: as the Christian faith, and Christians just ripped off these stories. 506 00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:50,139 S6: I heard this and was like, what could this possibly 507 00:26:50,140 --> 00:26:54,540 S6: be the case? It really unsettled me. Now, scholarly, this 508 00:26:54,540 --> 00:26:58,700 S6: is not taken really seriously. There's very few scholars who 509 00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:01,859 S6: believe this, but because of the internet and the reach 510 00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:05,420 S6: of social media, this just has a life of its own. 511 00:27:05,420 --> 00:27:08,120 S6: So we felt like we had to include it here. 512 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:10,840 S6: The bottom line is when you hear the story of 513 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,960 S6: Jesus and then you hear these mystery religions, they sound 514 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,239 S6: similar on the surface, but when you probe down to it, 515 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,359 S6: you find these radical differences. So, for example, Christianity is 516 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:26,160 S6: rooted in a history that's chronological. There's a beginning and 517 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,600 S6: there'll be an end to history. These mystery religions are 518 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,800 S6: rooted in this cyclical view of life, where like winter 519 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:39,160 S6: represents death and spring represents kind of resurrection. These aren't 520 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,440 S6: even historical figures that we're talking about. Clearly, Jesus is 521 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:49,199 S6: a historical figure. These ceremonies were rooted in like secret ceremonies, 522 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,320 S6: almost like kind of modern day the Masonic Lodge, so 523 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,200 S6: to speak, or certain secret ceremonies you might even see 524 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,199 S6: in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. 525 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,440 S6: Whereas in the Christian faith they were practiced publicly, even 526 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,629 S6: though some things were practiced just amongst believers. And the 527 00:28:07,630 --> 00:28:10,389 S6: last thing is, in these mystery religions, there's virtually no 528 00:28:10,390 --> 00:28:13,389 S6: focus on doctrine. It's really about what you do and 529 00:28:13,390 --> 00:28:16,790 S6: what you experience, not what you believe. Yet in the church, 530 00:28:16,790 --> 00:28:20,910 S6: it's about what we believe and about what we do. 531 00:28:21,350 --> 00:28:26,230 S6: So bottom line, these mystery religions are rooted in pagan ideas. 532 00:28:26,550 --> 00:28:29,590 S6: Whereas Christianity, if we want to understand it, it's rooted 533 00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:31,630 S6: deeply within Judaism. 534 00:28:31,670 --> 00:28:34,550 S1: Yeah, exactly. Right. Well, well, I've heard that said about 535 00:28:34,550 --> 00:28:37,389 S1: the flood too, that there are all kinds of these 536 00:28:37,390 --> 00:28:40,950 S1: mystery religions have talked about the flood. So there's nothing unique, 537 00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:43,630 S1: nothing germane. These are, uh, in fact, I've heard some 538 00:28:43,630 --> 00:28:46,470 S1: pretty popular personalities on TV say this on a regular 539 00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:48,550 S1: basis that this is just the same story told over 540 00:28:48,550 --> 00:28:51,350 S1: and over and over again, but from a slightly different way. Okay, 541 00:28:51,390 --> 00:28:55,070 S1: so here's one. How many of those other religions claim 542 00:28:55,070 --> 00:28:58,590 S1: to have a become fully man, a god claiming to 543 00:28:58,630 --> 00:29:02,550 S1: become fully man, and then coming and suffering the worst 544 00:29:02,550 --> 00:29:05,410 S1: form of capital punishment for other people when you had 545 00:29:05,410 --> 00:29:09,250 S1: zero crimes committed. I mean, so how can he be 546 00:29:09,250 --> 00:29:12,010 S1: a copycat? Because all the ways in which there's replication, 547 00:29:12,010 --> 00:29:14,930 S1: how about that one? That's the dividing one. What what 548 00:29:14,970 --> 00:29:18,090 S1: other religion has a God that becomes man and dies 549 00:29:18,090 --> 00:29:20,330 S1: for us? A lot of gods killing a lot of 550 00:29:20,370 --> 00:29:23,610 S1: Earthlings on a regular basis. Greek mythology is replete with that. 551 00:29:23,610 --> 00:29:27,170 S1: But how about any other religion that says, My God 552 00:29:27,170 --> 00:29:29,090 S1: comes as a man and dies for you? 553 00:29:30,250 --> 00:29:33,890 S6: So there's these vague ideas of kind of dying and 554 00:29:33,890 --> 00:29:36,930 S6: rising gods that you see that are debated. But when 555 00:29:36,930 --> 00:29:40,810 S6: you press down to the differences between that and Christianity, 556 00:29:41,170 --> 00:29:45,770 S6: it's not even close. So Osiris is this ancient Egyptian 557 00:29:45,770 --> 00:29:49,330 S6: god who was introduced to the Greeks around 300 BC, 558 00:29:49,370 --> 00:29:52,970 S6: before the time that Jesus, of course, was physically born. 559 00:29:53,370 --> 00:29:57,930 S6: But in this myth, Osiris, uh, is that his brother 560 00:29:57,930 --> 00:30:02,090 S6: killed him and chops him into 14 pieces. His wife, 561 00:30:02,190 --> 00:30:07,630 S6: ISIS found all but one of the puzzle pieces reassembled. Osiris. 562 00:30:07,950 --> 00:30:10,150 S6: And we're not even sure if he's raised back to 563 00:30:10,190 --> 00:30:14,430 S6: life or continues to live as a god of the underworld. Now, 564 00:30:14,430 --> 00:30:16,990 S6: if you just stop and think about this, it's not 565 00:30:16,990 --> 00:30:20,470 S6: even close to the Christian story. There's no resurrection. He's 566 00:30:20,470 --> 00:30:24,590 S6: not willingly laying down his life to pay for sin. 567 00:30:24,750 --> 00:30:28,230 S6: He's getting murdered, thrown in the water, and at best 568 00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:31,270 S6: becomes God of the underworld. So you're right, there's these 569 00:30:31,270 --> 00:30:34,950 S6: vague similarities that are out there. And what happens is 570 00:30:34,950 --> 00:30:38,430 S6: people will use the same words. They'll talk about baptism, 571 00:30:38,670 --> 00:30:42,790 S6: they'll talk about sacrifice, they'll talk about resurrection. But what 572 00:30:42,790 --> 00:30:45,910 S6: you mean by those terms, there couldn't be a greater 573 00:30:45,910 --> 00:30:49,230 S6: gulf between these mystery religions and the Christian faith. 574 00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:51,750 S1: Exactly right. All right. So let me bore down, because, 575 00:30:52,030 --> 00:30:55,470 S1: you know, if the historicity of Jesus can be substantiated, 576 00:30:55,830 --> 00:30:58,110 S1: it's like, okay, I know he existed. So yeah, okay, 577 00:30:58,150 --> 00:31:01,300 S1: I'll take Josephus. Josephus says that he was legit and okay, 578 00:31:01,340 --> 00:31:03,700 S1: I'll buy that for the moment. But then you're asking 579 00:31:03,700 --> 00:31:05,460 S1: me to go a step farther than that. I mean, 580 00:31:05,460 --> 00:31:08,860 S1: come on, a virgin birth. I mean, how in the 581 00:31:08,860 --> 00:31:10,980 S1: world are we going to prove something like that? Doesn't 582 00:31:10,980 --> 00:31:14,420 S1: exactly happen all the time. So now you've got me 583 00:31:14,540 --> 00:31:18,300 S1: stepping into the world of credibility. How can I say 584 00:31:18,420 --> 00:31:20,860 S1: that there is evidence for a virgin birth? 585 00:31:22,140 --> 00:31:23,980 S6: It's interesting you raise this question because I had a 586 00:31:23,980 --> 00:31:27,180 S6: public debate with an atheist, and he basically made the point. 587 00:31:27,180 --> 00:31:29,500 S6: He goes, if you believe in a virgin birth, you 588 00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:32,540 S6: reject science. Like that was the level of his critique. 589 00:31:32,940 --> 00:31:36,460 S6: And I said, okay, wait a minute. If God exists 590 00:31:36,580 --> 00:31:40,700 S6: and spoke the world into existence, then a virgin birth 591 00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:45,180 S6: is actually pretty easy. For one, I said, for two, 592 00:31:45,220 --> 00:31:48,420 S6: the idea of a virgin birth assumes that that's not 593 00:31:48,420 --> 00:31:53,180 S6: how births normally happen, that there's regularity within nature and 594 00:31:53,180 --> 00:31:57,460 S6: hence science can be done. And this is an exception, 595 00:31:57,460 --> 00:32:01,920 S6: so to speak, a supernatural phenomena. So even the claim 596 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,840 S6: of miracles only makes sense if we have science and 597 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:10,240 S6: we have regularity built into nature, which the Christian worldview offers. 598 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,160 S6: Now to get to the virgin birth, historically speaking, there 599 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,240 S6: is less evidence, I think, than there is for the resurrection. 600 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,720 S6: If we just look at it purely from a historical perspective. 601 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,200 S6: But we've got to ask the question can we trust 602 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,800 S6: Matthew and Luke? Were they eyewitnesses written within the time 603 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,600 S6: of the events that took place? I think they give 604 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,200 S6: independent testimony of the virgin birth of Jesus. You start 605 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,760 S6: to look at these facts and the reliability of the 606 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:42,840 S6: narrative itself, the evidence for other miracles, prophecy pointing towards it. 607 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,680 S6: Unless you begin with the assumption that miracles can't happen 608 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,360 S6: and virgin births don't happen. I think there's good reason 609 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,120 S6: to believe that this took place in the case of Jesus. 610 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,040 S1: Yeah, absolutely. So on that same end, let me go 611 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,350 S1: to the opposite end of the spectrum. So this idea 612 00:32:58,390 --> 00:33:02,790 S1: again of dead men rising, I mean that again, the skeptic, 613 00:33:02,830 --> 00:33:05,510 S1: the cynic is going to say that that didn't happen. 614 00:33:05,510 --> 00:33:08,750 S1: And then they'll segue to a myriad of ideas like 615 00:33:08,750 --> 00:33:11,830 S1: the swoon theory or the exchanging of the body theory, 616 00:33:11,830 --> 00:33:14,910 S1: all of these other things. So why did you write 617 00:33:14,910 --> 00:33:17,190 S1: about this in the book as well? Why does knowing 618 00:33:17,230 --> 00:33:21,270 S1: that the resurrection, the physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, 619 00:33:21,550 --> 00:33:24,070 S1: why does it matter? And how can I believe that 620 00:33:24,070 --> 00:33:26,390 S1: there is real evidence to substantiate that? 621 00:33:26,670 --> 00:33:28,750 S6: This is such a good question. In fact, it's really 622 00:33:28,750 --> 00:33:31,350 S6: two questions. We could look at the evidence that we know, 623 00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:34,790 S6: historically speaking, that Jesus lived. We know that he died. 624 00:33:34,790 --> 00:33:37,030 S6: We have very good evidence that he was buried. I mean, 625 00:33:37,070 --> 00:33:40,830 S6: think about this, Janet. We know the name of the person, Joseph, 626 00:33:41,070 --> 00:33:46,230 S6: where he's from. Arimathea. And what sociological or economic class 627 00:33:46,230 --> 00:33:49,070 S6: he was in. He was rich. We know that the 628 00:33:49,070 --> 00:33:52,510 S6: tomb was likely empty. We have very at least 20 629 00:33:52,510 --> 00:33:55,850 S6: pieces of evidence supporting an empty tomb. And then you 630 00:33:55,850 --> 00:33:59,690 S6: have all these people, whether it's the women, whether it's Paul, 631 00:33:59,690 --> 00:34:04,170 S6: whether it's James, whether it's the apostles themselves claiming they 632 00:34:04,210 --> 00:34:07,530 S6: had seen the risen Jesus and it transforms their life. 633 00:34:08,130 --> 00:34:11,770 S6: That's the positive historical evidence we could look at. Now, 634 00:34:11,770 --> 00:34:14,850 S6: why does that matter? Well, Paul says a few things. 635 00:34:14,850 --> 00:34:19,529 S6: He says, If Jesus is not risen, our faith is foolishness. 636 00:34:19,810 --> 00:34:22,810 S6: It's in vain. We are to be pitied. We are 637 00:34:22,810 --> 00:34:26,810 S6: still in our sins. In other words, if Jesus hasn't resurrected, 638 00:34:26,810 --> 00:34:31,330 S6: we have not been reconciled with God. That's a really 639 00:34:31,330 --> 00:34:35,089 S6: powerful thing, that not only the truth of Christianity, but 640 00:34:35,090 --> 00:34:39,250 S6: our very forgiveness from God rests upon Jesus rising from 641 00:34:39,250 --> 00:34:42,010 S6: the grave. But if you just read through the scriptures, 642 00:34:42,010 --> 00:34:46,290 S6: you see all these things tied to the resurrection of Jesus. 643 00:34:46,530 --> 00:34:50,410 S6: Things like even the sending of the Holy Spirit, the 644 00:34:50,410 --> 00:34:54,600 S6: power of the Holy Spirit within our lives is Gary Habermas, 645 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,120 S6: one of the greatest. He's probably studied the resurrection more 646 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,120 S6: than anybody alive. He says it's like a diamond that 647 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,839 S6: you turn if you just read the Gospels. It is 648 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:09,120 S6: a resurrection faith that we believe, and it's everywhere. Even 649 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,640 S6: facing doubt in our lives, it's the resurrection that can 650 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,480 S6: give us confidence that this is true. 651 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,840 S1: Um, again, when we come back, I want to ask you, 652 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,920 S1: following up on this idea of the resurrection, because you 653 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,680 S1: do this in the book as well. Why does this matter? 654 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,439 S1: I mean, let's just say that it even happened. So 655 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,719 S1: there has to be a meaning. In other words, you 656 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,720 S1: have again, as I noted earlier, no neutrality on this position. 657 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,640 S1: You either accept or reject what Christ did. You can 658 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,200 S1: plead ignorance for a short time, but Romans one says 659 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,839 S1: you're really without excuse. So what are you going to 660 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,240 S1: do if in fact this is a historical fact? Now 661 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,160 S1: what are you going to do with this fact? The 662 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,279 S1: book is again, let me just underscore this. There are 663 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:55,419 S1: seven sections and every single section is just questions. But then, 664 00:35:55,420 --> 00:35:58,580 S1: of course, there are questions brilliantly answered by the mcdowells, 665 00:35:58,580 --> 00:36:00,899 S1: and then you'll know how to answer, and it'll cause 666 00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:03,020 S1: you to dig deeper. And then every section, by the way, 667 00:36:03,060 --> 00:36:05,620 S1: has some concluding thoughts. So it's, that's just one of 668 00:36:05,620 --> 00:36:07,780 S1: those must have books. I can't say it any other way. 669 00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:12,540 S1: It's called evidence for Jesus Timeless Answers for tough questions 670 00:36:12,540 --> 00:36:14,899 S1: about Christ. You can learn more by going to our 671 00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:18,580 S1: website in the market with Janet Parshall. Click on that 672 00:36:18,580 --> 00:36:21,299 S1: red box that says Program Details and Audio, and it'll 673 00:36:21,300 --> 00:36:23,420 S1: take you where you need to go back after this. 674 00:36:36,620 --> 00:36:38,819 S1: The Bible calls us to be bold and courageous for 675 00:36:38,820 --> 00:36:40,820 S1: the cause of the cross, but too often we retreat 676 00:36:40,820 --> 00:36:43,740 S1: because of fear of cultural blowback. That's why I've chosen 677 00:36:43,739 --> 00:36:45,780 S1: call to take a bold stand as this month's truth 678 00:36:45,780 --> 00:36:49,610 S1: tool discover how to overcome the fear of intimidation or persecution. 679 00:36:49,810 --> 00:36:51,930 S1: As for your copy of Called to Take a Bold Stand. 680 00:36:51,930 --> 00:36:53,410 S1: When you give a gift of any amount to in 681 00:36:53,410 --> 00:36:58,050 S1: the market, call 877. Janet 58 that's 877. Janet 58. 682 00:36:58,090 --> 00:37:02,810 S1: Or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Doctor 683 00:37:02,810 --> 00:37:07,569 S1: Sean McDowell is a gifted communicator, a wonderful apologist, and 684 00:37:07,570 --> 00:37:10,410 S1: he really is interested in building us up in the faith. 685 00:37:10,410 --> 00:37:12,810 S1: So he and his dad co-authored a book called evidence 686 00:37:12,810 --> 00:37:17,530 S1: for Jesus Timeless Answers for Tough Questions About Christ. It's 687 00:37:17,530 --> 00:37:21,050 S1: a small, powerful book broken up into seven sections, starts 688 00:37:21,050 --> 00:37:23,569 S1: every chapter with a question, and then it gives you 689 00:37:23,570 --> 00:37:26,010 S1: an answer. And by the way, these questions, if you're listening, 690 00:37:26,010 --> 00:37:29,090 S1: are being asked all around us on a regular basis. 691 00:37:29,290 --> 00:37:31,730 S1: So we just talked about the evidence for the resurrection. 692 00:37:31,730 --> 00:37:33,890 S1: And let me and we're going to talk about why 693 00:37:34,250 --> 00:37:36,450 S1: it matters, but let me go to the idea. And 694 00:37:36,450 --> 00:37:39,130 S1: we hear this more and more in a postmodern world that, well, 695 00:37:39,130 --> 00:37:41,850 S1: this is probably just allegory. It was symbolic. I mean, 696 00:37:41,890 --> 00:37:43,529 S1: and we do this we love to pick apart, by 697 00:37:43,530 --> 00:37:45,650 S1: the way, the teachings of the Scripture and say that 698 00:37:45,650 --> 00:37:48,029 S1: was meant for them. It was really to try to 699 00:37:48,030 --> 00:37:50,710 S1: convey an idea, but it's not to be taken literally. 700 00:37:50,989 --> 00:37:54,270 S1: So is so the question and you address this in 701 00:37:54,270 --> 00:37:58,350 S1: the book has to be was his resurrection physical, bodily, 702 00:37:58,350 --> 00:38:02,589 S1: or was it just a spiritual kind of allegorical symbolism 703 00:38:02,590 --> 00:38:04,670 S1: of something? And can we know the answer to that? 704 00:38:05,630 --> 00:38:08,469 S6: This is a really important question that gets raised a lot, 705 00:38:08,469 --> 00:38:12,069 S6: because in certain translations of the Bible, it seems to 706 00:38:12,110 --> 00:38:16,110 S6: imply that Jesus had a physical body, but he was 707 00:38:16,110 --> 00:38:20,870 S6: raised spiritually. The problem is, when we think of spiritual, 708 00:38:20,870 --> 00:38:24,470 S6: we think of non-physical. But that's not what Paul means 709 00:38:24,469 --> 00:38:27,230 S6: in First Corinthians chapter 15. I mean, we could refer 710 00:38:27,230 --> 00:38:31,390 S6: to the Bible as a spiritual book, but it's also 711 00:38:31,390 --> 00:38:35,190 S6: still a physical book. What Paul's talking about is not 712 00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:40,670 S6: Constitution physically, but orientation that Jesus is raised and we 713 00:38:40,670 --> 00:38:46,129 S6: will all be raised similarly with transformed physical bodies. Now, 714 00:38:46,130 --> 00:38:50,129 S6: why this matters is because death has actually been defeated. 715 00:38:50,690 --> 00:38:55,529 S6: Death has been defeated. The body has been raised. The 716 00:38:55,530 --> 00:38:58,850 S6: body of Jesus. And he is the first fruits of 717 00:38:58,850 --> 00:39:01,969 S6: what is yet to come. And when we know that truth, 718 00:39:02,450 --> 00:39:05,810 S6: that changes everything, Janet. I mean, that's why Paul, who 719 00:39:05,810 --> 00:39:12,330 S6: was shipwrecked and robbed and beaten and just starved and 720 00:39:12,370 --> 00:39:16,090 S6: on and on and stoned almost to death in the 721 00:39:16,090 --> 00:39:19,530 S6: end of First Corinthians 15, the Great resurrection chapter. It's 722 00:39:19,530 --> 00:39:24,890 S6: like he's mocking death. Death. Where's your victory? Death. Where's 723 00:39:24,890 --> 00:39:28,290 S6: your sting? And that confidence comes from the grave. Could 724 00:39:28,290 --> 00:39:31,969 S6: not hold Jesus down. And he is the first fruits. 725 00:39:32,050 --> 00:39:34,490 S6: It's not going to hold down the rest of us 726 00:39:34,489 --> 00:39:35,090 S6: as well. 727 00:39:35,130 --> 00:39:38,210 S1: Yeah. Amen to that. You addressed this in the book too, 728 00:39:38,210 --> 00:39:40,410 S1: and I think it's important because sometimes we just fail 729 00:39:40,410 --> 00:39:43,560 S1: to connect the dots, even when they're flashing neon signs 730 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,640 S1: and they're right in front of us. So he has 731 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:50,080 S1: a physical bodily resurrection. And just taking a look at 732 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,480 S1: that from a mortal's perspective, if it's appointed unto man 733 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,880 S1: once to die, and after that the judgment. And it is. 734 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,200 S1: But you read about a man, you walk with, a 735 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,320 S1: man who says, I'm going to be crucified, I'm going 736 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,719 S1: to be killed, but I'm going to be raised from 737 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,480 S1: the dead. Now, just if you're looking at that from 738 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,319 S1: a wager's perspective, you know that's a win all or 739 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,880 S1: take all or lose all. Because if you're wrong, you're dead. 740 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,080 S1: If you're right, then whoa, that changes everything, doesn't it? 741 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,160 S1: So you want again, going back to the copycat religions 742 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,400 S1: saying that you're going to be raised from the dead, 743 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,080 S1: that kind of substantiates from my perspective, at least your deity, 744 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:30,880 S1: does it not? 745 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,640 S6: I think the resurrection shows a few things. Number one, 746 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,239 S6: it shows that God exists because if Jesus died and 747 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,920 S6: was buried and on the third day came back from 748 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:45,820 S6: the grave that cries out to a supernatural, transcendent power 749 00:40:45,820 --> 00:40:49,140 S6: to do so. Second, it tells us that there's life 750 00:40:49,140 --> 00:40:51,020 S6: after death. I mean, if you want to know, there's 751 00:40:51,020 --> 00:40:55,540 S6: this movie, uh, called Flatliners from the early 90s with 752 00:40:55,580 --> 00:40:57,980 S6: Julia Roberts, and they want to know if there's life 753 00:40:57,980 --> 00:41:01,500 S6: after death. So they flatline one another's heart as medical students, 754 00:41:01,500 --> 00:41:03,020 S6: and then they bring it back and they ask them, 755 00:41:03,020 --> 00:41:06,419 S6: what was it like on the other side? Morbid experiment. 756 00:41:06,420 --> 00:41:08,940 S6: But if somebody's been dead and come back, they can 757 00:41:08,940 --> 00:41:12,020 S6: tell you what's life like on the other side. Well, geez, 758 00:41:12,060 --> 00:41:15,779 S6: wasn't dead 30s or four minutes. He rose on the 759 00:41:15,780 --> 00:41:19,660 S6: third day. So if he rose from the grave, God exists. 760 00:41:19,660 --> 00:41:23,140 S6: There's a transcendent power. There's life after death. And third, 761 00:41:23,140 --> 00:41:26,980 S6: like you said, Janet, it tells us Christianity is true. 762 00:41:27,340 --> 00:41:31,180 S6: Jesus is the only major figure who claimed to be 763 00:41:31,219 --> 00:41:37,020 S6: God and staked his entire message on a single, testable 764 00:41:37,060 --> 00:41:42,290 S6: historical event. Mohammed did not rise from the grave. Krishna 765 00:41:42,290 --> 00:41:45,169 S6: did not rise from the grave. Moses did not rise 766 00:41:45,170 --> 00:41:48,450 S6: from the grave. Joseph Smith did not rise from the grave. 767 00:41:48,890 --> 00:41:52,049 S6: Jesus rose from the grave. And that tells us that 768 00:41:52,050 --> 00:41:53,650 S6: his message is really true. 769 00:41:53,770 --> 00:41:57,250 S1: Absolutely. Then if you're looking at this from a lawyer's perspective, 770 00:41:57,250 --> 00:41:59,370 S1: and that's why when your dad wrote the book in 771 00:41:59,370 --> 00:42:03,129 S1: 72 evidence that demands a verdict, that was really good 772 00:42:03,170 --> 00:42:05,730 S1: because you're you're pleading the case, right? We're pleading the 773 00:42:05,730 --> 00:42:08,130 S1: case in the court of public opinion. So it isn't 774 00:42:08,130 --> 00:42:11,250 S1: just that he was physically resurrected. It isn't just that 775 00:42:11,250 --> 00:42:14,410 S1: he predicted he would do exactly jot and tittle what 776 00:42:14,410 --> 00:42:17,209 S1: he did. But how about those eyewitnesses after the fact? 777 00:42:17,210 --> 00:42:18,370 S1: What in the world are you going to do with 778 00:42:18,370 --> 00:42:19,650 S1: their testimony? Your honor. 779 00:42:21,090 --> 00:42:23,170 S6: You know what's amazing about how the when the gospel 780 00:42:23,170 --> 00:42:28,090 S6: writers start proclaiming in acts, even at Pentecost, they say, 781 00:42:28,090 --> 00:42:32,810 S6: we proclaim what we have seen. Yes, we are witnesses 782 00:42:32,810 --> 00:42:35,170 S6: to this. They don't stand up and say, hey, Jesus 783 00:42:35,170 --> 00:42:37,450 S6: will give you certain feeling or, hey, we heard from 784 00:42:37,550 --> 00:42:41,670 S6: somebody else who heard from somebody else a myth. They 785 00:42:41,670 --> 00:42:45,549 S6: proclaim what they saw. You see this all over the 786 00:42:45,550 --> 00:42:48,509 S6: New Testament that the gospel writers who spent, you know, 787 00:42:48,550 --> 00:42:52,469 S6: 2 to 3 years with Jesus, at least the apostles did, 788 00:42:52,510 --> 00:42:54,790 S6: and the gospel writers had access to them. In the 789 00:42:54,790 --> 00:42:59,710 S6: case of Luke, is they say, witness matters, truth matters. 790 00:42:59,870 --> 00:43:03,950 S6: We are proclaiming what we've seen and how this person, Jesus, 791 00:43:03,950 --> 00:43:06,710 S6: has changed us. So you're right, we have witnesses to 792 00:43:06,750 --> 00:43:07,710 S6: these events. 793 00:43:07,750 --> 00:43:10,790 S1: Yeah. Oh, Shawn, I could go another ten hours on this. 794 00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:14,110 S1: I just love the book. Thank you so much. There's 795 00:43:14,110 --> 00:43:17,029 S1: so many really thought provoking questions. You know, on one level, 796 00:43:17,030 --> 00:43:19,710 S1: they're just pretty straightforward. On the other hand, they really 797 00:43:19,710 --> 00:43:23,069 S1: are the difference between light and darkness and life and death, 798 00:43:23,070 --> 00:43:25,509 S1: if I can put it that way. So everybody in 799 00:43:25,510 --> 00:43:27,990 S1: my classroom would be required to read this book. Because 800 00:43:27,989 --> 00:43:30,150 S1: I will say it again, if you're out there and 801 00:43:30,150 --> 00:43:32,310 S1: I hope you're out of your little tent and into 802 00:43:32,310 --> 00:43:34,670 S1: the marketplace of ideas, that's what this program is designed 803 00:43:34,670 --> 00:43:36,939 S1: to do. These are the kinds of questions you're going 804 00:43:36,940 --> 00:43:39,700 S1: to hear. You're not called to retreat. You're not called 805 00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:42,859 S1: to be afraid. You're called to be prepared to give 806 00:43:42,860 --> 00:43:45,540 S1: a reason for the hope that resides within you. Josh 807 00:43:45,540 --> 00:43:50,100 S1: and Sean's book does just exactly that in very straightforward, 808 00:43:50,140 --> 00:43:55,419 S1: very understandable terms. They answer these big theological questions in 809 00:43:55,420 --> 00:43:58,259 S1: such a way that you can turn around and offer 810 00:43:58,260 --> 00:44:01,380 S1: that answer to somebody who's a skeptic, a seeker, a cynic, 811 00:44:01,940 --> 00:44:05,420 S1: someone who might not yet know Jesus as their personal savior. 812 00:44:05,540 --> 00:44:07,460 S1: And boy, what an opportunity to be able to share 813 00:44:07,460 --> 00:44:10,940 S1: that good news. Thank you, doctor Sean McDowell. Thank you friends. 814 00:44:10,980 --> 00:44:12,900 S1: Check out the book at our website in the Market 815 00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:16,180 S1: with Janet Parshall. I also have a direct link to 816 00:44:16,219 --> 00:44:18,740 S1: Sean's website as well. And if you are not following 817 00:44:18,739 --> 00:44:21,460 S1: him on his YouTube channel. Oh, are you missing some 818 00:44:21,460 --> 00:44:23,580 S1: really good stuff? What a great hour. Love these kinds 819 00:44:23,580 --> 00:44:26,260 S1: of conversations. Thank you and I'll meet you next time 820 00:44:26,260 --> 00:44:28,300 S1: in the marketplace of ideas. See you then.