1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 S1: Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,160 S1: downloading this podcast, and I hope you hear something that 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,560 S1: will really encourage and edify you. But before you start 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,400 S1: to listen, let me take a moment of your time 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,399 S1: and tell you about this month's truth tool. It's called 6 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,640 S1: secure How to Have a Healthy Attachment to God. And 7 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,360 S1: it follows that very often, whatever our relationship is like 8 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,000 S1: with authority figures, predominantly our parents, we somehow transferred to 9 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,000 S1: how we see God. So if we have an angry parent, 10 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,319 S1: he's an angry God. If it's a distant parent, he's 11 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,520 S1: a God who's not there. I think it's important we 12 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,680 S1: understand who God really is. And in this wonderful book 13 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,760 S1: called secure, you're going to discover the character of God 14 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,120 S1: and how deeply in love God is with you. It's 15 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,839 S1: our truth tool. Our truth tools are my way of 16 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,680 S1: saying thank you because we are listener supported radio. So 17 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,600 S1: if you'd like a copy of secure, just call eight 7758. 18 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,760 S1: That's eight 7758. Give a gift of any amount. My 19 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,840 S1: way of saying thank you for supporting the program is 20 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,000 S1: I'll send you a copy of secure. You can also 21 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,560 S1: do this online at in the Market with Janet. Scroll 22 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:58,720 S1: to the bottom of the page. There's the cover of 23 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,270 S1: the book secure. Click on the photo. Go right on through. 24 00:01:02,310 --> 00:01:04,510 S1: Make your donation and we'll send you a copy again 25 00:01:04,510 --> 00:01:07,509 S1: of secure. If you want to consider becoming a partial partner, 26 00:01:07,510 --> 00:01:10,509 S1: that is the ever increasing circle of friends who give 27 00:01:10,510 --> 00:01:13,030 S1: every single month at a level of their own choosing. 28 00:01:13,030 --> 00:01:15,229 S1: And my way of saying thank you is this you 29 00:01:15,230 --> 00:01:17,510 S1: always get the truth tool for each and every month. 30 00:01:17,510 --> 00:01:20,110 S1: And in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter 31 00:01:20,110 --> 00:01:22,470 S1: that includes some of my writing and a little audio 32 00:01:22,470 --> 00:01:25,070 S1: piece just for my partial partners. So either way, thank 33 00:01:25,069 --> 00:01:28,670 S1: you in advance for prayerfully considering the opportunity to financially 34 00:01:28,670 --> 00:01:31,310 S1: support in the market with Janet partial and keeping it 35 00:01:31,310 --> 00:01:33,350 S1: on the air now. I hope you hear something that 36 00:01:33,350 --> 00:01:36,149 S1: will encourage you to get out and influence and occupy 37 00:01:36,270 --> 00:01:37,830 S1: in the marketplace of ideas. 38 00:01:40,270 --> 00:01:41,830 S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 39 00:01:42,069 --> 00:01:44,350 S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 40 00:01:44,550 --> 00:01:46,589 S4: Americans worshiping government over God. 41 00:01:46,670 --> 00:01:50,270 S5: Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years. 42 00:01:50,270 --> 00:01:54,030 S6: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated everything is not. 43 00:02:07,490 --> 00:02:10,050 S1: Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet partial. 44 00:02:10,050 --> 00:02:12,769 S1: Thank you so much for spending the hour with us. Okay. 45 00:02:13,210 --> 00:02:16,250 S1: This program is designed to get us equipped, matured and 46 00:02:16,250 --> 00:02:19,169 S1: out there into the marketplace of ideas. I didn't tell 47 00:02:19,169 --> 00:02:21,570 S1: you to go there. Jesus did. And so we're to 48 00:02:21,570 --> 00:02:24,650 S1: go out there influence and occupy. Let our light so shine, 49 00:02:24,650 --> 00:02:26,970 S1: live such good lives among the pagans, and seek the 50 00:02:26,970 --> 00:02:29,889 S1: welfare of the city. I could go on. And then 51 00:02:29,889 --> 00:02:33,570 S1: there's this issue of same sex attraction and transgenderism all 52 00:02:33,570 --> 00:02:36,610 S1: swirling around the issue of sexuality. For the record, I 53 00:02:36,610 --> 00:02:38,370 S1: think it's important to put a little bit of history 54 00:02:38,370 --> 00:02:43,330 S1: in here. Sex was designed by God. Can can I 55 00:02:43,370 --> 00:02:45,450 S1: let that sink in for a minute? Sex was designed 56 00:02:45,450 --> 00:02:48,690 S1: by God. Where was it placed? That's right. In a 57 00:02:48,690 --> 00:02:53,010 S1: place of perfection. So God creates the family first in Eden. 58 00:02:53,010 --> 00:02:55,530 S1: He didn't create government of the Church in Eden. He 59 00:02:55,530 --> 00:02:58,040 S1: created the family. So it makes sense, does it not? 60 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,919 S1: If you're thinking biblically and critically that you would assault 61 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,200 S1: the family and human sexuality, the only place where sexual 62 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,680 S1: activities to be engaged in a marriage defined by God himself, 63 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,840 S1: the creator of marriage, as one man and one woman. 64 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:13,360 S1: But Satan goes out of his way to try to 65 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,360 S1: twist things around because, hey, you don't have to go 66 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,600 S1: more than a couple of chapters deep into Genesis and 67 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,359 S1: you've already got the serpent rattling his tail saying exactly 68 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,400 S1: what he says today. Did God really say? So this 69 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,360 S1: raises a panoply of questions for us as Christians. What 70 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,200 S1: do we do in terms of biblical application? You know, 71 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,960 S1: the Bible isn't meant to just be dusted off on 72 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:34,880 S1: Sunday morning and you use it for church and then 73 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:36,720 S1: you put it back. Well, you can say to me, 74 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:38,840 S1: I've got a magic marker in a notebook. Great. But 75 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,320 S1: it's for seven days a week, 24 hours a day. 76 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,440 S1: You'll learn it on Sunday, maybe even Sunday night. Midweek 77 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,119 S1: service as well. Hopefully you're studying it in between. But 78 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,920 S1: it is your roadmap, your constant companion. It illuminates our 79 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,640 S1: lives as we're on this dark path, on our way 80 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,980 S1: to the city of glory. Lamp unto my feet and 81 00:03:56,980 --> 00:04:00,380 S1: light unto my path. So questions arise in the pragmatics 82 00:04:00,380 --> 00:04:02,900 S1: about what we do about this issue of human sexuality. 83 00:04:02,900 --> 00:04:05,940 S1: So and it's being debated about in the church because 84 00:04:05,940 --> 00:04:08,100 S1: the church, let's be honest, is the last bastion of 85 00:04:08,100 --> 00:04:10,540 S1: saying no, not because we're arrogant or because we're full 86 00:04:10,540 --> 00:04:13,340 S1: of hubris or because we're being judgmental, but because we 87 00:04:13,340 --> 00:04:15,700 S1: are children of a great king who told us in 88 00:04:15,700 --> 00:04:18,460 S1: his word that sex is to be between a man 89 00:04:18,460 --> 00:04:21,740 S1: and a woman, period within the confines of marriage. And 90 00:04:21,740 --> 00:04:24,740 S1: so all of the tangential ideas that flow from that 91 00:04:24,740 --> 00:04:28,540 S1: need to start with first principles. So it raises a question, 92 00:04:28,540 --> 00:04:31,060 S1: for example, do you go to a gay wedding? Well, 93 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:33,099 S1: to give you an example of how even within the 94 00:04:33,100 --> 00:04:36,700 S1: halls of Christian academia, this is a conversation being talked about, 95 00:04:36,700 --> 00:04:38,460 S1: I want you to hear from Scott Rae. He's dean 96 00:04:38,500 --> 00:04:41,020 S1: of faculty and professor of Christian ethics at Talbot School 97 00:04:41,020 --> 00:04:44,060 S1: of Theology, Biola University. He's chair of the Department of 98 00:04:44,060 --> 00:04:48,180 S1: philosophy at Talbot. He's an ethicist. He co-hosts a podcast 99 00:04:48,180 --> 00:04:50,900 S1: called Thinking Biblically. He's written a whole bunch of books, 100 00:04:51,260 --> 00:04:55,170 S1: and he holds a biblical view of marriage. But yet 101 00:04:55,610 --> 00:04:56,969 S1: said this. Have a listen. 102 00:04:57,490 --> 00:05:00,369 S7: We've had this maxim for a long time. You love it. 103 00:05:00,650 --> 00:05:03,729 S7: Love the sinner and hate the sinner. And I would 104 00:05:03,730 --> 00:05:07,089 S7: change that. I would just say you love the person. Sure. 105 00:05:08,650 --> 00:05:11,290 S7: You know, that's why I, you know, for example, for 106 00:05:11,290 --> 00:05:13,890 S7: just for myself. You may disagree with me on this, but, 107 00:05:14,290 --> 00:05:16,010 S7: you know, if I, if I had, you know, if 108 00:05:16,010 --> 00:05:20,049 S7: my brother or one of my nephews was gay and 109 00:05:20,089 --> 00:05:26,210 S7: asked me to attend his wedding, I would because he 110 00:05:26,250 --> 00:05:30,010 S7: he would certainly already know my views on the subject 111 00:05:30,930 --> 00:05:33,969 S7: and my staying home would only the only thing that 112 00:05:33,970 --> 00:05:39,089 S7: would gain is it would further alienate him. Something I'm 113 00:05:39,130 --> 00:05:45,370 S7: trying deeply to stay connected to. By staying, my staying 114 00:05:45,370 --> 00:05:47,610 S7: home would not send him a message that he doesn't 115 00:05:47,610 --> 00:05:53,990 S7: already have from me. And I, you know, and again, 116 00:05:54,029 --> 00:05:55,550 S7: you may disagree with me on this too, but if 117 00:05:55,550 --> 00:05:59,710 S7: I were those bakers, I'd have baked the cake and 118 00:05:59,750 --> 00:06:01,910 S7: I probably would have baked it twice as good a 119 00:06:01,910 --> 00:06:07,670 S7: one and charged them half the price. Because I'm loving you. 120 00:06:07,670 --> 00:06:10,349 S7: May you may see that differently. Um. 121 00:06:11,190 --> 00:06:14,110 S8: I would just ask him, how does that not give 122 00:06:14,150 --> 00:06:17,470 S8: tacit approval? That's the reason you're there is to, like, 123 00:06:17,470 --> 00:06:19,789 S8: kind of honor that that's the struggle I had. I 124 00:06:19,790 --> 00:06:22,390 S8: do photography as well. Like, I haven't been asked to 125 00:06:22,390 --> 00:06:26,909 S8: shoot a same sex marriage, but I just couldn't because I. 126 00:06:27,190 --> 00:06:31,070 S8: I would be being false, I don't believe. I don't know. 127 00:06:31,310 --> 00:06:32,790 S8: It's tough. Um. 128 00:06:33,950 --> 00:06:37,270 S7: I guess my my view of that. Is that okay? 129 00:06:37,270 --> 00:06:41,590 S7: It's okay. Yeah, sure. And the only thing calling the 130 00:06:41,589 --> 00:06:44,910 S7: wedding cake gives you the freedom to do is to 131 00:06:44,910 --> 00:06:49,110 S7: charge you a lot more money. That's true. Um, you 132 00:06:49,110 --> 00:06:50,350 S7: may see that differently. 133 00:06:51,110 --> 00:06:53,940 S1: Well, and a lot of people do see it differently. 134 00:06:53,940 --> 00:06:55,940 S1: And that's why we're going to have a conversation about 135 00:06:55,940 --> 00:06:58,220 S1: what does the Bible have to say? Joe Dallas is 136 00:06:58,220 --> 00:07:00,260 S1: with us. Boy, I just appreciate so much of what 137 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:02,500 S1: Joe has to say. Joe called him a long time 138 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:05,020 S1: ago into a ministry in California, where he counsels people 139 00:07:05,020 --> 00:07:07,980 S1: who struggle in the area of sexual relationships. He is 140 00:07:07,980 --> 00:07:10,780 S1: a prolific author. He's a podcaster. He is, from my 141 00:07:10,780 --> 00:07:14,300 S1: vantage point, a teacher. He's got fabulous video teaching films. 142 00:07:14,300 --> 00:07:16,260 S1: He meets with pastors around the globe once a month. 143 00:07:16,260 --> 00:07:17,860 S1: We'll get into all of that during the course of 144 00:07:17,860 --> 00:07:21,700 S1: this conversation. But for the decades, not years, the decades 145 00:07:21,700 --> 00:07:24,660 S1: I have known Joe, he is the perfect balance between 146 00:07:24,660 --> 00:07:27,060 S1: truth and love. Why? Because he didn't just get a 147 00:07:27,060 --> 00:07:29,660 S1: bunch of book learning on this subject. He was, as 148 00:07:29,660 --> 00:07:32,900 S1: Paul writes to the church at Corinth, were some of you? 149 00:07:33,100 --> 00:07:35,620 S1: So this was his experience. Well, been there, done that. 150 00:07:35,620 --> 00:07:37,740 S1: Got a whole closet full of the teachers, have since 151 00:07:37,740 --> 00:07:39,980 S1: sold them and given him away. Probably burned him more 152 00:07:39,980 --> 00:07:42,260 S1: to the point. But that's who he was. And God 153 00:07:42,260 --> 00:07:45,300 S1: used that in his refining of Joe to make him 154 00:07:45,300 --> 00:07:48,380 S1: a wonderful biblical counselor for people who struggle. Because it 155 00:07:48,380 --> 00:07:50,260 S1: isn't just from the head, it's from the heart because 156 00:07:50,260 --> 00:07:52,530 S1: he's been there. And what I love about Joe is 157 00:07:52,530 --> 00:07:55,290 S1: that in the wide variety of topics that he's written on, 158 00:07:55,290 --> 00:07:57,770 S1: all of them as the baseline theme, some aspect of 159 00:07:57,770 --> 00:08:01,730 S1: human sexuality. He never strays from the Word of God. 160 00:08:01,730 --> 00:08:04,170 S1: And so he gives answers always in love, but he 161 00:08:04,170 --> 00:08:06,450 S1: never abandons the truth. And that's the reason why I 162 00:08:06,450 --> 00:08:08,810 S1: love talking to Joe on a regular basis. So the 163 00:08:08,810 --> 00:08:10,970 S1: warmest of welcomes, my friend. Thank you so much for 164 00:08:10,970 --> 00:08:14,210 S1: joining us, from what I hope is sunny California at 165 00:08:14,210 --> 00:08:16,690 S1: the moment, but it also happens to be where Biola 166 00:08:16,690 --> 00:08:19,770 S1: and Talbot are located. So this is and by the way, 167 00:08:19,850 --> 00:08:22,890 S1: Scott Ray's comments here are just emblematic of others in 168 00:08:22,890 --> 00:08:24,970 S1: the church who have pretty much said the same thing 169 00:08:25,290 --> 00:08:27,210 S1: that I would go to the wedding, I would have 170 00:08:27,250 --> 00:08:29,410 S1: baked the cake, etc. and some people might say, ah, 171 00:08:29,450 --> 00:08:31,330 S1: that's majoring in the minors. Or as I heard one 172 00:08:31,330 --> 00:08:34,570 S1: critic say years ago on religious liberty cases, those are, quote, 173 00:08:34,610 --> 00:08:37,570 S1: the trinkets of religion, so we shouldn't be bothered by them. 174 00:08:37,610 --> 00:08:39,290 S1: Give me your reaction to what you just heard. 175 00:08:39,809 --> 00:08:42,370 S9: Well, golly, Janet, first of all, thanks for having me. 176 00:08:42,370 --> 00:08:45,010 S9: It's always great talking with you, but I never would 177 00:08:45,050 --> 00:08:48,250 S9: have thought of the definition of marriage as a trinket. 178 00:08:48,730 --> 00:08:51,949 S9: We're talking about a basic and an essential, and I 179 00:08:51,950 --> 00:08:54,510 S9: think that's where we need to begin. The definition of 180 00:08:54,510 --> 00:08:58,750 S9: marriage and family is a foundational doctrine in Scripture. And 181 00:08:58,750 --> 00:09:00,750 S9: as you said, it was created by God. 182 00:09:01,510 --> 00:09:02,949 S1: So let me pick it up at that point. And 183 00:09:02,950 --> 00:09:04,550 S1: you were very kind. I took us right to the 184 00:09:04,550 --> 00:09:06,270 S1: break on. That didn't give you much of a chance, 185 00:09:06,270 --> 00:09:08,350 S1: so we'll build on that. I'm glad Jill's with us 186 00:09:08,350 --> 00:09:10,910 S1: for the entire hour because we have lots to talk about, 187 00:09:10,910 --> 00:09:14,870 S1: so stick around. Practical applied Christianity. You don't aim in 188 00:09:14,870 --> 00:09:16,470 S1: it on Sunday and then don't have a clue how 189 00:09:16,470 --> 00:09:18,350 S1: you apply it on Monday. This is about taking the 190 00:09:18,350 --> 00:09:20,550 S1: whole truth of the whole gospel and applying it to 191 00:09:20,590 --> 00:09:23,350 S1: the whole world around us. Everything that's in the world 192 00:09:23,350 --> 00:09:46,070 S1: around us. More with Joe Dallas right after this. We 193 00:09:46,070 --> 00:09:49,740 S1: were created for relationships. Developing a healthy attachment to God 194 00:09:49,740 --> 00:09:52,820 S1: helps us form good relationships with others. And that's why 195 00:09:52,820 --> 00:09:55,700 S1: I've chosen secure how to have a healthy attachment to God. 196 00:09:55,700 --> 00:09:58,540 S1: As this month's truth tool, discover how real security is 197 00:09:58,540 --> 00:10:01,180 S1: found in your relationship with God. Ask for your copy 198 00:10:01,179 --> 00:10:03,020 S1: of secure. When you give a gift of any amount 199 00:10:03,020 --> 00:10:07,220 S1: to in the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 200 00:10:07,220 --> 00:10:10,340 S1: Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. 201 00:10:13,100 --> 00:10:15,660 S1: We are spending the hour with Jo Dallas, who's an author, 202 00:10:15,700 --> 00:10:19,340 S1: a conference speaker and ordained pastoral counselor. He directs a 203 00:10:19,340 --> 00:10:22,580 S1: biblical counseling ministry for those dealing with sexual and relational 204 00:10:22,580 --> 00:10:25,180 S1: problems and with their families as well. He is a 205 00:10:25,179 --> 00:10:27,820 S1: member of the American Association of Christian Counselors and in 206 00:10:27,820 --> 00:10:30,380 S1: addition to his excellent books, and he's written a boatload 207 00:10:30,380 --> 00:10:34,260 S1: of them. He blogs daily at Jo Dallas Online. So 208 00:10:34,420 --> 00:10:36,420 S1: I just played that bit of audio. That, again, is 209 00:10:36,420 --> 00:10:39,820 S1: emblematic of a vein that's working its way through the church. 210 00:10:39,820 --> 00:10:42,220 S1: I would go to the wedding, I would bake the cake, 211 00:10:42,260 --> 00:10:44,300 S1: and there were others who would say, no, there's something 212 00:10:44,300 --> 00:10:46,700 S1: different and unique about marriage. And that's exactly where you 213 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:50,079 S1: were taking us, Joe, because you said first principles. Impliedly. 214 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,200 S1: We have to start with the definition of marriage. It 215 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,000 S1: isn't just a cavalier union where say yes to the dress. 216 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,960 S1: And how many bridesmaids. What color are the bridesmaids outfits 217 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,000 S1: going to be? It is a covenant made in the 218 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,800 S1: presence of witnesses before a holy God. So take us 219 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:05,679 S1: from that point. 220 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,600 S9: Yeah, Janet. Well, we're talking about two different things clarity 221 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,480 S9: and priority. And it sounds like the professor had the 222 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,360 S9: clarity part down. At least he seemed to be saying, 223 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,840 S9: I am clear in my belief that marriage exists only 224 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,880 S9: between a man and a woman. Okay, that's a very 225 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,560 S9: good start. But if we treat that doctrine like, yes, 226 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,880 S9: we believe it, but it's not really that important, then 227 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:34,160 S9: we really are, I think, erring pretty significantly. I I'll 228 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,280 S9: make a public confession here. I speed on the freeway. Okay, um, 229 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,959 S9: I shouldn't, but I do. It's very rare for me 230 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,439 S9: to take that 65 seriously. You know what I mean? 231 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:50,189 S9: Unless there's an I got her there. Yep. Okay, now, um, I, 232 00:11:50,309 --> 00:11:54,750 S9: I will admit that is not right, but I can't 233 00:11:54,750 --> 00:11:57,510 S9: say it's. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. 234 00:11:57,550 --> 00:12:00,590 S9: Maybe I should, but it's really not that much of 235 00:12:00,590 --> 00:12:04,150 S9: an issue to me. Um, of course, doing 90 would 236 00:12:04,150 --> 00:12:07,150 S9: be an issue, but I this is the way a 237 00:12:07,150 --> 00:12:09,390 S9: lot of people are treating the marriage issue like, well, 238 00:12:09,390 --> 00:12:11,949 S9: I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, 239 00:12:11,950 --> 00:12:13,589 S9: but it's not such a big deal that I would 240 00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:16,390 S9: offend somebody by not going to a same sex wedding. Now, here, 241 00:12:16,390 --> 00:12:18,630 S9: I think we're looking at a piece, above all, kind 242 00:12:18,630 --> 00:12:21,069 S9: of an approach, and that is not a biblical approach. 243 00:12:21,429 --> 00:12:24,989 S9: I want peace like Paul. Paul told the Romans, Romans 1218, 244 00:12:25,030 --> 00:12:28,470 S9: as much as lieth within you, be at peace with 245 00:12:28,470 --> 00:12:32,990 S9: all people, okay, great. But faithfulness above peace when it 246 00:12:32,990 --> 00:12:36,990 S9: comes to faithfulness. If you are asking me to say 247 00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:41,630 S9: or do something that is at odds with revealed truth 248 00:12:41,630 --> 00:12:44,990 S9: on critical issues, I just can't do it. And this 249 00:12:44,990 --> 00:12:48,290 S9: is where I think the professor is wrong. Um, I 250 00:12:48,290 --> 00:12:51,329 S9: think he's basically saying you must stay at peace with 251 00:12:51,330 --> 00:12:55,010 S9: someone above everything else, even if it means doing something 252 00:12:55,530 --> 00:12:57,930 S9: that is contradictory to what you say you believe. And 253 00:12:57,929 --> 00:13:00,610 S9: like the other man on that podcast was saying, I 254 00:13:00,610 --> 00:13:04,130 S9: appreciated it. He said, hey, I would feel false. Well, 255 00:13:04,130 --> 00:13:06,929 S9: it would be false. It's false to stand at a 256 00:13:06,929 --> 00:13:10,210 S9: wedding as a witness because your presence there is a 257 00:13:10,210 --> 00:13:15,689 S9: statement of celebration. If you're there, it is assumed logically 258 00:13:15,690 --> 00:13:18,850 S9: that you celebrate what is happening. Because if you don't 259 00:13:18,850 --> 00:13:21,890 S9: celebrate what is happening, why would you be there? Now, 260 00:13:21,890 --> 00:13:25,450 S9: this is different than just hanging out with a gay person. 261 00:13:25,450 --> 00:13:28,050 S9: So if I had a gay family member or friend 262 00:13:28,050 --> 00:13:30,170 S9: who had a birthday party, you bet I'd be there 263 00:13:30,170 --> 00:13:32,770 S9: with a present. No problem. Because I'm glad that person 264 00:13:32,770 --> 00:13:36,410 S9: was born, I celebrate that. But to go to a 265 00:13:36,410 --> 00:13:39,650 S9: wedding of any kind, whether it is a same sex wedding, 266 00:13:39,650 --> 00:13:43,370 S9: which is a misrepresentation of marriage or a marriage that 267 00:13:43,370 --> 00:13:46,800 S9: shouldn't be happening. You know, say a a Christian friend 268 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,840 S9: of mine just dumped his wife because he wanted a 269 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,360 S9: younger woman, and he wants to marry the younger woman. 270 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,439 S9: I'm not going to go to that wedding. I can't 271 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,600 S9: if you can't stand there and say I bless what 272 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,360 S9: is happening, then I believe it's wrong to be there. 273 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,400 S9: And this is where I think the the professor is 274 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,440 S9: violating what Paul told the Ephesians. Ephesians 511 have no 275 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:11,000 S9: fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. And I, I 276 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,560 S9: guess this is self-evident, but let me reiterate it a 277 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:20,760 S9: same sex wedding ceremony is an official distortion of what 278 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:26,760 S9: God intended. So to be there, celebrating an official endorsement 279 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:31,600 S9: of what God has prohibited is to publicly say the 280 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,960 S9: creator of all of us didn't quite get it right 281 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,760 S9: when he answered Adam's deepest need by providing a woman. 282 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,680 S9: And therefore I will celebrate this distortion of what our 283 00:14:42,820 --> 00:14:46,340 S9: creator intended. Now, no serious believer should say that, professor 284 00:14:46,340 --> 00:14:47,020 S9: or not. 285 00:14:47,060 --> 00:14:47,860 S10: Yeah. Wow. 286 00:14:48,140 --> 00:14:51,100 S1: So let me linger here because again, just love your 287 00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:53,100 S1: clarity all the time, Jill. And I'm glad you said that. 288 00:14:53,140 --> 00:14:55,620 S1: You know, the most important person at the wedding is God. 289 00:14:55,660 --> 00:14:57,420 S1: It's not the guest. It's not the bride. It's not 290 00:14:57,420 --> 00:15:01,220 S1: the groom. It is a solemn moment of commitment and dedication. 291 00:15:01,220 --> 00:15:04,100 S1: And the other people that are invited are the witnesses. Period. 292 00:15:04,140 --> 00:15:07,300 S1: But this is about God being invited in as a 293 00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:11,060 S1: couple dedicate themselves to each other under the covenantal relationship 294 00:15:11,060 --> 00:15:14,460 S1: that God has created between man and woman, under God's sovereignty. 295 00:15:14,740 --> 00:15:18,140 S1: So you can't be cavalier. And I think while that 296 00:15:18,140 --> 00:15:20,220 S1: was kind of a throwaway about if I was the baker, 297 00:15:20,220 --> 00:15:22,500 S1: I would have made it twice as good and charged 298 00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:25,420 S1: half the price. Yeah. For Jack Phillips, who has been 299 00:15:25,420 --> 00:15:31,300 S1: harassed ridiculously by a rather aggressive human rights commission in Colorado. Um, 300 00:15:31,340 --> 00:15:33,860 S1: he didn't see it as just a cake. It was 301 00:15:33,860 --> 00:15:37,540 S1: inclusive in this ceremony that we're talking about. It was 302 00:15:37,540 --> 00:15:40,740 S1: because Jack Phillips has a different and I would posit, 303 00:15:40,780 --> 00:15:43,930 S1: a higher view of marriage than those who think it's 304 00:15:43,930 --> 00:15:46,810 S1: just a cake. Well, it's not because it really is 305 00:15:46,810 --> 00:15:49,850 S1: his expression. He might use fondant and sugar and flour, 306 00:15:49,850 --> 00:15:52,090 S1: but he is expressing his truth when he makes a 307 00:15:52,090 --> 00:15:54,090 S1: marriage cake. And he said if somebody came in and 308 00:15:54,090 --> 00:15:56,210 S1: asked him to make another message that was antithetical to 309 00:15:56,210 --> 00:15:59,130 S1: his worldview, he'd say no as well. That's the canvas 310 00:15:59,130 --> 00:16:01,970 S1: on which he paints and uses his First Amendment rights. 311 00:16:01,970 --> 00:16:03,730 S1: But if you have a lower view of marriage, and 312 00:16:03,730 --> 00:16:06,410 S1: I loved your example about speeding on the highway, what 313 00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:09,370 S1: we're doing is we're devaluing the importance if God starts 314 00:16:09,370 --> 00:16:11,850 S1: it out at the beginning of his 66 books, in 315 00:16:11,890 --> 00:16:15,170 S1: the very beginning of the first book that we read, 316 00:16:15,450 --> 00:16:17,730 S1: it tells you something about how important this is to God, 317 00:16:17,730 --> 00:16:18,330 S1: doesn't it? 318 00:16:18,850 --> 00:16:22,210 S9: Absolutely. Not to mention the very end of that same book. 319 00:16:22,410 --> 00:16:24,930 S9: It starts with a wedding. It ends with a wedding. 320 00:16:24,930 --> 00:16:26,850 S9: And I think one of the most sacred things you 321 00:16:26,850 --> 00:16:30,370 S9: can say about marriage, Janet, is it is a type 322 00:16:30,370 --> 00:16:33,210 S9: of God's relationship to his people in the Old Testament 323 00:16:33,210 --> 00:16:36,610 S9: and Christ's relationship to his church in the New Testament. 324 00:16:36,930 --> 00:16:39,930 S9: This is sacred. It's not secondary, and it needs to 325 00:16:39,930 --> 00:16:41,520 S9: be treated like it's sacred. 326 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:42,240 S10: Mm. Wow. 327 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,320 S1: That's why conversations like this are important. It isn't pointing 328 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,400 S1: fingers by any stretch of the imagination. It's. Come. Let 329 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,600 S1: us reason together. And if we're going to think critically 330 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,680 S1: and biblically, let's go back to not someone's opinion, but 331 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,800 S1: what the Word of God has to say. So you 332 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,920 S1: need to start by understanding what is God's perspective on marriage. 333 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,360 S1: After all, he defined it. And what does he use 334 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,720 S1: it for, not only for companionship and procreation? It is 335 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:10,560 S1: profoundly symbolic of the relationship that Christ the bridegroom, has 336 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,920 S1: with us his bride, the church and his. Joe just 337 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,439 S1: said so beautifully, beginning and end. And oh, by the way, 338 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,200 S1: first miracle. Where's it at a wedding? So is this 339 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,439 S1: a topic to be taken lightly? I don't think so. 340 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,560 S1: We have more to talk about right after this with 341 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,720 S1: Joe Dallas. Keep that thinking cap on. We're going to 342 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:50,860 S1: continue to think biblically and critically right after this. It's 343 00:17:50,859 --> 00:17:53,179 S1: always fruitful to have a conversation with Joe Dallas. He 344 00:17:53,220 --> 00:17:56,100 S1: helps us to think biblically, critically, always teaching us how 345 00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:58,980 S1: to do it by having a grace narrative, but never, 346 00:17:58,980 --> 00:18:01,979 S1: never stepping back from the truth. So I want to 347 00:18:01,980 --> 00:18:03,460 S1: and I'm we're going to get an update on your 348 00:18:03,460 --> 00:18:05,379 S1: ministry in a bit, because there's so much happening with 349 00:18:05,380 --> 00:18:06,980 S1: your ministry, Joe, and I'd love to tell my friends 350 00:18:06,980 --> 00:18:09,220 S1: about it, but let me go to this idea. So 351 00:18:09,220 --> 00:18:12,020 S1: the first thing you've done, rightfully, I think, is challenge 352 00:18:12,020 --> 00:18:14,420 S1: us to have a greater view of God's Word, and 353 00:18:14,420 --> 00:18:16,420 S1: therefore we would have a greater view of marriage, because 354 00:18:16,460 --> 00:18:18,700 S1: God's Word is where we go to get God's heart 355 00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:21,500 S1: and his perspective and purpose of marriage, by the way. 356 00:18:21,859 --> 00:18:25,780 S1: So then there's this post-modernist contagion that works its way 357 00:18:25,780 --> 00:18:28,100 S1: into everything, which is about your feelings. I find it 358 00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:32,180 S1: so interesting that in some respects, it seems that we 359 00:18:32,380 --> 00:18:36,859 S1: in Western culture are more concerned about offending someone than 360 00:18:36,859 --> 00:18:40,130 S1: we are about offending God. I mean, if we had 361 00:18:40,130 --> 00:18:41,649 S1: to go to the throne room and if there were 362 00:18:41,650 --> 00:18:44,770 S1: a way where we could get permission from God to say, father, 363 00:18:44,810 --> 00:18:46,370 S1: may I have permission to go to a gay wedding? 364 00:18:46,410 --> 00:18:48,850 S1: He's already given us the answer on that by telling 365 00:18:48,850 --> 00:18:52,130 S1: us what marriage is about, what it's defined as, what 366 00:18:52,130 --> 00:18:55,290 S1: its purpose is, and what it means symbolically, past, present, 367 00:18:55,290 --> 00:18:58,050 S1: and future. So he's already spoken on this issue. He's 368 00:18:58,050 --> 00:19:00,890 S1: not silent by any stretch of the imagination, but we're 369 00:19:00,890 --> 00:19:03,650 S1: we're tangled in this web that we don't want to 370 00:19:03,690 --> 00:19:07,810 S1: offend somebody. Now, I find that interesting because we're so 371 00:19:07,810 --> 00:19:10,490 S1: worried about hurting someone's feelings. And I'm here in Washington, D.C., 372 00:19:10,490 --> 00:19:13,449 S1: and I'm now listening to congressional hearings where members of 373 00:19:13,450 --> 00:19:16,290 S1: Congress are using words that if I were a child, 374 00:19:16,650 --> 00:19:18,250 S1: there'd be a bar of soap in my mouth for 375 00:19:18,250 --> 00:19:21,090 S1: a week. Okay. And these are elected officials that are 376 00:19:21,090 --> 00:19:23,890 S1: talking like this to say nothing of the lawlessness we're 377 00:19:23,890 --> 00:19:26,530 S1: seeing on the streets. So isn't this an interesting dichotomy? 378 00:19:26,570 --> 00:19:28,410 S1: We don't want to hurt somebody's feelings. And yet we've 379 00:19:28,410 --> 00:19:31,409 S1: never been so uncouth in our lives as a culture. 380 00:19:31,530 --> 00:19:35,490 S1: Talk to me about this feelings issue, because I heard that. Well, 381 00:19:35,490 --> 00:19:37,870 S1: let's just not say love the sinner, but hate the sin. 382 00:19:37,869 --> 00:19:40,109 S1: Let's just say we love the person. In other words, 383 00:19:40,109 --> 00:19:42,870 S1: no place for any condemnation there because we don't want 384 00:19:42,910 --> 00:19:44,949 S1: to offend anybody. Talk to me about that. 385 00:19:45,310 --> 00:19:48,750 S9: Well, I think we have developed, um, the wrong idea 386 00:19:48,750 --> 00:19:52,350 S9: of love. I am all for just saying let's love 387 00:19:52,350 --> 00:19:56,030 S9: the person. That's fine with me. Love, though, is more 388 00:19:56,030 --> 00:19:59,909 S9: about truth than about affection. And Janet, that's where I 389 00:19:59,910 --> 00:20:03,750 S9: think we really, as a culture. And now the cultural error, 390 00:20:03,790 --> 00:20:06,990 S9: as so often happens, it's creeping into the church. The 391 00:20:06,990 --> 00:20:10,790 S9: cultural error is love is primarily about affection. Are we 392 00:20:10,790 --> 00:20:15,310 S9: being affectionate? Are we making everybody feel good? Um, now 393 00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:18,190 S9: you've just pointed out, of course, there's a terrible double 394 00:20:18,190 --> 00:20:20,109 S9: standard there, isn't there? Because so many of the people 395 00:20:20,109 --> 00:20:23,270 S9: who are saying, let's make everybody feel good are turning 396 00:20:23,270 --> 00:20:26,310 S9: right around and being as destructive as they can be. 397 00:20:26,550 --> 00:20:28,510 S9: If you happen to be the wrong side of the aisle, 398 00:20:28,550 --> 00:20:33,109 S9: you know. But nonetheless, I do think that we we are, 399 00:20:33,270 --> 00:20:36,420 S9: as a church, even starting to buy into the idea 400 00:20:36,420 --> 00:20:39,300 S9: that when we love someone, it is about making them 401 00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:42,340 S9: feel good. Now, if I want to please God, I 402 00:20:42,380 --> 00:20:46,060 S9: will be very affectionate to my neighbor. I will be respectful. 403 00:20:46,060 --> 00:20:48,619 S9: I will be kind. I will try to serve them. 404 00:20:48,619 --> 00:20:51,740 S9: I will be as good and as decent and polite 405 00:20:51,740 --> 00:20:53,260 S9: to them as I can be, and I will be 406 00:20:53,260 --> 00:20:56,220 S9: friendly and engaging. I will be all of those things, 407 00:20:56,220 --> 00:20:59,020 S9: but it will still primarily be about truth. Because love, 408 00:20:59,020 --> 00:21:03,260 S9: according to First Corinthians 13, wants what is best for 409 00:21:03,260 --> 00:21:06,100 S9: the object of love. If I love you, what I 410 00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:09,180 S9: want more than anything else is for you to be 411 00:21:09,180 --> 00:21:12,060 S9: aligned with God's will. I want you to be born 412 00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:13,980 S9: again if you have not been born again, and if 413 00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:16,180 S9: you are born again, I want you to be living 414 00:21:16,180 --> 00:21:19,020 S9: within the will of God. That really is what love 415 00:21:19,020 --> 00:21:22,619 S9: is about. Love seeks what is best for the other person. 416 00:21:22,619 --> 00:21:25,300 S9: And I again, I do want to point out it's 417 00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:30,740 S9: not like we're trying to choose between being ridiculously sweet 418 00:21:30,740 --> 00:21:33,820 S9: versus being a total jerk. I mean, I believe in 419 00:21:33,820 --> 00:21:37,760 S9: most instances it is very easy to love and respect 420 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,520 S9: and show kind engagement with most gay and lesbian and 421 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,000 S9: trans people, I really do. However, I also think that 422 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,000 S9: when that becomes the priority, then we've lost a lot 423 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,239 S9: of what the early church had and that was a 424 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,760 S9: sense of urgency. And Janet. I mean, look at the 425 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,760 S9: way they lived. The gospel was such a priority to them. 426 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,560 S9: They would live and die by it. And to them, 427 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,160 S9: truth was more important than getting along. I do want 428 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,959 S9: to get along, but when getting along is the ultimate ideal, 429 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,400 S9: then we are going to compromise truth for the sake 430 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,640 S9: of peace with people. And like I said this, this 431 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,040 S9: is something we can't do, not if we're serious about 432 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,480 S9: our relationship with God. 433 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,200 S1: Amen. Couldn't agree more. So then pragmatics. So many people 434 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,320 S1: listening just want the pragmatics okay. What do I do then. 435 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,000 S1: So in other words you get an invitation to go 436 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,040 S1: to a same sex wedding and you've decided based on 437 00:22:33,150 --> 00:22:35,230 S1: the counsel of God and your time in your prayer 438 00:22:35,230 --> 00:22:37,470 S1: closet and the readings of the Holy Spirit. No, can't, 439 00:22:37,470 --> 00:22:40,150 S1: for the reasons we've already discussed. And yet you don't 440 00:22:40,150 --> 00:22:42,389 S1: want to offend them. Because if they don't know Christ 441 00:22:42,390 --> 00:22:44,710 S1: as their personal Savior, you're a living epistle. You might 442 00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:46,990 S1: be the only Bible they've ever read up to that point. 443 00:22:47,150 --> 00:22:50,670 S1: So pragmatically, Joe, how do you handle the invitation without 444 00:22:50,670 --> 00:22:53,630 S1: offending the person? Because most people, I think they don't 445 00:22:53,630 --> 00:22:56,510 S1: want to walk in with Hobnail boots and carry a banner. 446 00:22:56,510 --> 00:22:58,389 S1: They want to do this in a way where they're 447 00:22:58,390 --> 00:23:01,869 S1: still representative as an ambassador of Christ, of his love 448 00:23:01,869 --> 00:23:02,990 S1: and his compassion. 449 00:23:03,510 --> 00:23:10,109 S9: Good point ambassador. Humble sincerity. Okay. Humble sincerity would say 450 00:23:10,150 --> 00:23:12,909 S9: in a case like that, look, you know, I respect 451 00:23:12,910 --> 00:23:16,150 S9: you or I certainly hope you do. And I would 452 00:23:16,150 --> 00:23:19,030 S9: never ask you to do anything that would violate your 453 00:23:19,030 --> 00:23:22,630 S9: own conscience. We've got a different worldview, and I'd love 454 00:23:22,630 --> 00:23:24,910 S9: to talk more about that with you sometime. But. But 455 00:23:24,910 --> 00:23:28,710 S9: I do want you to know that it would violate 456 00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:32,500 S9: my own conscience to be there. It would violate it, 457 00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:35,060 S9: because I have a different view than you do about 458 00:23:35,060 --> 00:23:38,820 S9: marriage and sexuality and family. I want the best for you. 459 00:23:38,820 --> 00:23:41,580 S9: I want to be your friend. So I hope you 460 00:23:41,580 --> 00:23:44,260 S9: will not let this come between us. But I can't 461 00:23:44,260 --> 00:23:48,220 S9: in good conscience be there. And I hope you'll understand. 462 00:23:48,220 --> 00:23:50,780 S9: If you're angry or offended, I want to hear it. 463 00:23:50,780 --> 00:23:53,940 S9: I'd love to talk about it. But I again, just 464 00:23:53,940 --> 00:23:56,820 S9: want to appeal to you. Let's not either of us 465 00:23:56,820 --> 00:23:59,340 S9: push the other to do something we don't believe in. Okay? 466 00:23:59,380 --> 00:24:02,580 S1: Amen. Amen. You know, I have to tell you. Pragmatics. 467 00:24:02,619 --> 00:24:05,140 S1: My daughter was in a workplace. She had a friend, 468 00:24:05,140 --> 00:24:08,660 S1: loved the friend, still loves the friend dearly. And she 469 00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:12,219 S1: was going to be married to another woman. And, Sarah, 470 00:24:12,260 --> 00:24:14,460 S1: I didn't say a word. The mama sat back, kept 471 00:24:14,460 --> 00:24:16,060 S1: her mouth closed. Thank you, Lord, for giving me the 472 00:24:16,060 --> 00:24:17,859 S1: power to do that. I wanted to see how my 473 00:24:17,859 --> 00:24:20,300 S1: daughter handled this, met with her ahead of time, said, 474 00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:22,619 S1: I love you to death, but I cannot as a 475 00:24:22,619 --> 00:24:24,659 S1: Christian and you know who I am. I cannot attend 476 00:24:24,660 --> 00:24:26,419 S1: your wedding, but I want you to know that I 477 00:24:26,420 --> 00:24:28,220 S1: love you and you'll always be my friend. To which 478 00:24:28,220 --> 00:24:30,879 S1: the woman said, Sarah, I know you're a Christian, and 479 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,520 S1: I would have been so disappointed if you had said 480 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,280 S1: you would come because it would be inconsistent with who 481 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,639 S1: you are. Let that be an encouragement to you. I 482 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,960 S1: was one proud mama, by the way, back after this. 483 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,200 S1: Let me give a big shout out to our partial partners. 484 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,320 S1: Thank you friends, partial partners are becoming the backbone of 485 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,720 S1: this ministry. They're generous. Monthly gifts allow us to provide relevant, 486 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,760 S1: compelling programming every day. When you become a partial partner, 487 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,720 S1: you'll receive private emails directly from me. A weekly audio 488 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,040 S1: message only you will hear, and special behind the scenes 489 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,840 S1: updates as well. Become a partial partner today by calling 490 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,630 S1: 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with 491 00:25:29,630 --> 00:25:34,190 S1: Janet Parshall. We're having a great and it's always great 492 00:25:34,190 --> 00:25:36,590 S1: to have a conversation with Joe Dallas. He's an author, 493 00:25:36,630 --> 00:25:40,470 S1: a conference speaker, ordained pastoral counselor, as a wonderful minister 494 00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:42,670 S1: in California. He's been doing that for decades, by the way, 495 00:25:42,670 --> 00:25:45,630 S1: where he helps people who struggle with relational and sexual 496 00:25:45,630 --> 00:25:49,510 S1: issues and their families as well. Prolific author. And, you know, 497 00:25:49,590 --> 00:25:52,030 S1: I love having a guest who writes so many books, 498 00:25:52,030 --> 00:25:54,350 S1: you're hard pressed to figure which one shall I feature 499 00:25:54,350 --> 00:25:56,110 S1: as my resource? So the one I picked this time 500 00:25:56,109 --> 00:25:58,350 S1: for Joe, because he has so many, is called speaking 501 00:25:58,350 --> 00:26:02,670 S1: of homosexuality, discussing the issues with kindness and clarity, which 502 00:26:02,670 --> 00:26:05,909 S1: has been beautifully exemplified by Joe in his answers to 503 00:26:05,910 --> 00:26:08,629 S1: what we've been talking about. The pragmatics of do you 504 00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:10,310 S1: go to the wedding? Do you bake the cake? Those 505 00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:12,390 S1: are the pragmatics. Those are boots on the ground kind 506 00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:15,750 S1: of questions wrapping themselves around the theology that we read 507 00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:18,750 S1: in Scripture about marriage. By the way, he blogs on 508 00:26:18,750 --> 00:26:20,990 S1: a regular basis, and I want you to know about that. 509 00:26:20,990 --> 00:26:24,629 S1: It's called Joe Dallas Online. He's got a podcast that's fabulous, 510 00:26:24,950 --> 00:26:26,910 S1: but he also does a bunch of other things with 511 00:26:26,910 --> 00:26:29,450 S1: the power of videotape. And I love getting an update 512 00:26:29,450 --> 00:26:32,409 S1: because every time we meet, it's just the impact circle 513 00:26:32,410 --> 00:26:34,889 S1: keeps growing and growing. So if you would, Joe, start 514 00:26:34,890 --> 00:26:38,130 S1: with this fabulous challenge that you put together some time 515 00:26:38,130 --> 00:26:40,650 S1: ago for pastors. How does it work? How does a 516 00:26:40,650 --> 00:26:43,250 S1: pastor become a part of this? And tell me what 517 00:26:43,250 --> 00:26:45,810 S1: kind of responses and feedback you're getting from the pastors? 518 00:26:46,090 --> 00:26:48,650 S9: Oh thank you. Yeah, Janet, this is something I've been 519 00:26:48,650 --> 00:26:52,290 S9: excited about. As you know, the challenge is a monthly 520 00:26:52,330 --> 00:26:56,010 S9: online meeting I'm having with pastors from it started from 521 00:26:56,010 --> 00:26:58,010 S9: around the country, but now it's around the world. We've 522 00:26:58,010 --> 00:27:02,649 S9: got nearly 600 now who, um, are meeting with me. 523 00:27:02,650 --> 00:27:04,930 S9: And what we basically do is I do a half 524 00:27:04,970 --> 00:27:10,410 S9: hour talking about one particular ministry challenge. How do you counsel, 525 00:27:10,410 --> 00:27:13,170 S9: for example, as a pastor, parents who have a son 526 00:27:13,170 --> 00:27:15,450 S9: who just came out as gay, how do you talk 527 00:27:15,450 --> 00:27:17,850 S9: to your youth group about the issue? How do you 528 00:27:17,850 --> 00:27:21,209 S9: establish church policies to keep up with the different challenges 529 00:27:21,210 --> 00:27:24,210 S9: that are coming up now? People who are transgender, who 530 00:27:24,210 --> 00:27:27,200 S9: want to use the bathroom of their choice, or a 531 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,320 S9: gay couple who wants to be baptized. These are new 532 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,760 S9: challenges the church is facing and pastors are asking the 533 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,440 S9: same questions we've been talking about right now. Janet. A 534 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,840 S9: lot of pastors are asking about the question of, gee, 535 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,360 S9: what do I tell parents of their son is getting married? 536 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,920 S9: And should they go or should they not? And how 537 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,399 S9: do they articulate it? We in a way, I think 538 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,640 S9: we're like the early church when um, at the Jerusalem Council, 539 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,680 S9: they said, well, we've got a new challenge. All these 540 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,560 S9: new people are coming, uh, Gentiles are coming into the church. 541 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,840 S9: And what should we expect of them and what should 542 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,400 S9: our policies be? Of course, the difference is Gentiles are 543 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,280 S9: made by God to be whatever race they are. God 544 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,720 S9: doesn't create homosexuality. So that's where the analogy falls short. 545 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,520 S9: But the principle is the same. A new challenge that 546 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,400 S9: we go back to the Word of God and use 547 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,880 S9: the old answers, really, uh, to meet it. And I 548 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,119 S9: gotta tell you, I've loved it. The pastors involved have 549 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,300 S9: sincerely been saying, we want to meet this issue head on. 550 00:28:26,580 --> 00:28:30,220 S9: We don't want to compromise biblically, but we also want 551 00:28:30,220 --> 00:28:32,860 S9: to show kindness to people. We want to do better 552 00:28:32,859 --> 00:28:35,100 S9: than we've seen some other people do who have just 553 00:28:35,100 --> 00:28:39,940 S9: been sort of harsh and and needlessly judgmental when it 554 00:28:39,940 --> 00:28:42,700 S9: comes to this issue. So I really appreciate that so 555 00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:45,500 S9: many leaders today are are looking for balance. And if 556 00:28:45,500 --> 00:28:48,180 S9: I can make one more point, Janet, I believe the 557 00:28:48,180 --> 00:28:50,940 S9: local church is the answer to so much of this. 558 00:28:50,980 --> 00:28:55,140 S9: I think that that the local church, the local pastor, 559 00:28:55,140 --> 00:28:58,940 S9: that's where so much healing is done. And I know 560 00:28:58,940 --> 00:29:01,260 S9: in my own life, as you said earlier, when I 561 00:29:01,260 --> 00:29:05,380 S9: repented of homosexuality back in 1984, I got into a 562 00:29:05,380 --> 00:29:08,740 S9: local church. That's where I was fed the word of God. 563 00:29:08,740 --> 00:29:11,380 S9: I had men come around me and welcomed me into 564 00:29:11,380 --> 00:29:14,620 S9: the body. I was discipled, I was built up. I 565 00:29:14,620 --> 00:29:19,340 S9: was taught I had the iron sharpening iron experience as 566 00:29:19,340 --> 00:29:22,060 S9: much as I believe in counseling, which I do myself, 567 00:29:22,060 --> 00:29:24,300 S9: and as much as I believe in parachurch ministry, the 568 00:29:24,410 --> 00:29:26,890 S9: local church, I believe, is going to be the answer 569 00:29:27,090 --> 00:29:30,530 S9: to this problem, really being well equipped in the local church. 570 00:29:30,530 --> 00:29:33,450 S9: So that's why I've been so excited about this meeting. 571 00:29:33,490 --> 00:29:36,170 S1: Wow. And isn't it interesting, Joe, that the kinds of 572 00:29:36,170 --> 00:29:38,890 S1: questions they're asking are just this? They're the pragmatics. How 573 00:29:38,890 --> 00:29:41,130 S1: do I fill in the blank? And it tells me 574 00:29:41,130 --> 00:29:42,770 S1: there's a hunger. Because if you, as you and I 575 00:29:42,770 --> 00:29:44,890 S1: have discussed in the past, you don't exactly take a 576 00:29:44,890 --> 00:29:48,290 S1: class at Dallas Theological Seminary on how you handle this question. 577 00:29:48,290 --> 00:29:50,410 S1: So you'd really have to figure out, okay, how do 578 00:29:50,410 --> 00:29:52,410 S1: I do this in such a way? That's Christ honoring. 579 00:29:52,410 --> 00:29:55,690 S1: It's within the parameters of Scripture, and it's not in 580 00:29:55,690 --> 00:29:57,930 S1: such a way that someone who's struggling in this area 581 00:29:57,930 --> 00:30:00,210 S1: is so offended. They walk away. We want them to come. 582 00:30:00,210 --> 00:30:02,690 S1: And as you say, the local church, because that's when 583 00:30:02,690 --> 00:30:04,650 S1: old things will pass away and all things become new 584 00:30:04,650 --> 00:30:07,810 S1: when you're made new in Christ Jesus. So, so tremendously important. 585 00:30:07,810 --> 00:30:10,610 S1: I'm thrilled every time we talk. I remember the very 586 00:30:10,610 --> 00:30:12,290 S1: first time you introduced this to me. I think it 587 00:30:12,290 --> 00:30:16,370 S1: was 128 churches. So to now have over 600. This 588 00:30:16,370 --> 00:30:20,290 S1: tells me how the Lord is really affirming your obedience 589 00:30:20,290 --> 00:30:22,570 S1: to him in putting this together. Now, if I'm hearing 590 00:30:22,570 --> 00:30:24,960 S1: this and I'm a pastor. How does somebody become a 591 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,160 S1: part of this on a monthly basis? 592 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,480 S9: Oh, just go to my website and you'll see right 593 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,200 S9: at the top there there's a box called The Challenge. 594 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,440 S9: Click on to that. It's free. We'd love to have 595 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:36,280 S9: you join us. 596 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,800 S1: Excellent. Now I have to talk about the video series 597 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,200 S1: because you've got a couple. You've got one for pastors 598 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,000 S1: and then one for the family. So talk to me 599 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:43,640 S1: about these. 600 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,200 S9: Sure. There's one for the family. When someone you love 601 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,760 S9: is gay. And I guess the title says it all. Uh, 602 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,160 S9: when parents, Christian parents have a loved one, come out 603 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,680 S9: to them as as lesbian or gay or trans. Of 604 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,680 S9: course they want to respond. Right? But golly, Janet, you know, 605 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,280 S9: we're talking about this, um, with love. But but it's 606 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,200 S9: a little a little different. It's a lot different when 607 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:06,920 S9: one of your own comes to you and says, this 608 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,920 S9: is what I'm dealing with, mom and dad and, uh, 609 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,760 S9: you know, we have the parents heart and we have 610 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,200 S9: the desire to maintain a good relationship. We also have 611 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,760 S9: the grief over knowing a loved one is outside God's will. 612 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,800 S9: This series walks you through what to expect, what to say, 613 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,780 S9: what to do, what not to say. So we put 614 00:31:24,780 --> 00:31:27,420 S9: that together to be a tool for Christian parents and 615 00:31:27,420 --> 00:31:31,140 S9: hopefully a source of comfort and encouragement as well as guidance. 616 00:31:31,140 --> 00:31:34,420 S9: And then for pastors. The series is called pastor. What 617 00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:37,860 S9: about LGBTQ? And again, that title says it all. It's 618 00:31:37,860 --> 00:31:41,260 S9: for any pastor or ministry leader who is wanting to 619 00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:44,780 S9: know in practical terms, how do I address the people 620 00:31:44,780 --> 00:31:47,820 S9: in my congregation who are affected by this, whether it's 621 00:31:47,820 --> 00:31:50,460 S9: a gay visitor, whether it's a member of the church 622 00:31:50,460 --> 00:31:53,780 S9: who privately struggles, whether it's parents with a gay loved one, 623 00:31:53,780 --> 00:31:55,820 S9: whether it's someone who comes in and says, I'm a 624 00:31:55,820 --> 00:31:58,780 S9: gay Christian, whether it's my board that says, how do 625 00:31:58,780 --> 00:32:03,620 S9: we establish policies? That series was put together to equip pastors, 626 00:32:03,620 --> 00:32:07,140 S9: and again, they're both available just on my website. If 627 00:32:07,140 --> 00:32:09,820 S9: you go to Joe Comm, you'll see on the video 628 00:32:09,820 --> 00:32:12,540 S9: series there that there are. That's how you can find them. 629 00:32:12,580 --> 00:32:15,940 S1: Perfect. Very easy to do. Joe Dallas love it when 630 00:32:15,940 --> 00:32:17,900 S1: websites have easy names. And by the way, you're going 631 00:32:17,940 --> 00:32:19,620 S1: to see a bunch of tabs. Just look at the 632 00:32:19,620 --> 00:32:22,210 S1: one that says courses in those video series will be there. 633 00:32:22,210 --> 00:32:24,490 S1: And pastor, look at the tab that says get equipped 634 00:32:24,490 --> 00:32:27,010 S1: and that's where you're going to find the challenge. So what? 635 00:32:27,050 --> 00:32:29,650 S1: I love to talk to Joe anytime, anywhere about anything. 636 00:32:29,650 --> 00:32:31,330 S1: But one of the things I love to do is 637 00:32:31,330 --> 00:32:33,970 S1: to let you know that this very forward thinking man 638 00:32:33,970 --> 00:32:37,690 S1: has great resources for the church capital C universal. And 639 00:32:37,690 --> 00:32:39,730 S1: this is a big issue. It's it's not just an 640 00:32:39,730 --> 00:32:41,690 S1: over there issue. This is shown up at too many 641 00:32:41,690 --> 00:32:45,010 S1: kitchen tables in churches across America. And I think it's 642 00:32:45,010 --> 00:32:47,570 S1: imperative that people know how to answer. But that takes 643 00:32:47,570 --> 00:32:49,530 S1: us back to where we were with our discussion, Joe, 644 00:32:49,530 --> 00:32:51,890 S1: because your observation is that you think we're and I 645 00:32:51,890 --> 00:32:54,970 S1: love your words. We're losing our edge on the church's 646 00:32:54,970 --> 00:32:57,330 S1: response to homosexuality. What do you mean by that? 647 00:32:57,410 --> 00:32:59,290 S9: Yeah, I think we are. Well, I think we're losing 648 00:32:59,290 --> 00:33:01,970 S9: the edge kind of in general, Janet, the edge is 649 00:33:01,970 --> 00:33:05,810 S9: basically the clear line between truth and error, you know? 650 00:33:06,130 --> 00:33:09,170 S9: And when you think of Christianity, you do need to 651 00:33:09,170 --> 00:33:12,370 S9: think about the edge. People are either born again or 652 00:33:12,370 --> 00:33:16,290 S9: they are lost. Something is either right or it is wrong. 653 00:33:16,330 --> 00:33:19,690 S9: There is truth or there is error. There is an edge. 654 00:33:19,790 --> 00:33:22,150 S9: And when we lose that edge, we lose our clarity, 655 00:33:22,190 --> 00:33:25,190 S9: you see. Um, and I think that on this issue, 656 00:33:25,230 --> 00:33:29,910 S9: we are in danger of losing clarity because we, I think, 657 00:33:29,910 --> 00:33:35,229 S9: are reacting to, uh, what the world is saying about us. 658 00:33:35,270 --> 00:33:40,510 S9: You know, if you hear the news media and the, uh, 659 00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:44,590 S9: Grammy Awards host or the the actors and actresses or 660 00:33:44,590 --> 00:33:48,510 S9: the general academia all saying you people are hateful, you 661 00:33:48,510 --> 00:33:51,190 S9: people are hateful, you people are hateful, there's a danger 662 00:33:51,190 --> 00:33:55,110 S9: of starting to believe. Oh, dear. Um, if I say anything, 663 00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:57,870 S9: then that offends them. It must mean I'm being hateful. Therefore, 664 00:33:57,870 --> 00:34:01,470 S9: I better find a way to soften all of my 665 00:34:01,470 --> 00:34:04,190 S9: positions and make sure that they are acceptable to people. 666 00:34:04,190 --> 00:34:07,270 S9: And in doing that, while we basically, as I said, 667 00:34:07,270 --> 00:34:10,670 S9: we lose our edge so that we talk about vital 668 00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:14,870 S9: truth as though it is a matter of opinion. Uh, 669 00:34:14,870 --> 00:34:18,940 S9: like you say tomato, I say tomato. Um, and this 670 00:34:18,940 --> 00:34:22,380 S9: is where, again, we do not need to be strident 671 00:34:22,380 --> 00:34:26,900 S9: in order to be clear. I can be clear and 672 00:34:26,900 --> 00:34:31,260 S9: still be very respectful and even very interested in engaging. 673 00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:34,260 S9: I mean, if there are two words I really think 674 00:34:34,260 --> 00:34:40,100 S9: we should look at and emphasize engagement and alignment. Again, engagement. Yes, 675 00:34:40,140 --> 00:34:44,860 S9: Jesus engaged with all kinds of people. We can converse. 676 00:34:44,860 --> 00:34:48,300 S9: We can relate. We can serve. We can be friendly 677 00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:52,940 S9: and accessible. We should engage. Alignment is different. If I 678 00:34:52,980 --> 00:34:56,580 S9: am being asked to align myself with something I know 679 00:34:56,580 --> 00:34:59,660 S9: to be wrong, that's when I need the edge in 680 00:34:59,660 --> 00:35:02,100 S9: which I say, just as your daughter did so well, gosh, 681 00:35:02,100 --> 00:35:06,500 S9: no wonder you're proud. I mean, she handled that beautifully. 682 00:35:07,020 --> 00:35:10,779 S9: The edge basically says, yes, I love you. Yes, I 683 00:35:10,780 --> 00:35:15,060 S9: respect you. No, that is something I can't go along with. 684 00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:18,840 S9: Not because I'm holier than thou, though, but because this 685 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,640 S9: to me would be an insult to my creator, to 686 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,359 S9: our creator, if I were to align with that and 687 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,640 S9: I just can't do it. I hope you understand. See, 688 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,960 S9: that's you don't have to be a jerk. 689 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:29,320 S1: Right. 690 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,399 S9: To say that. That was clear, but I don't think 691 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,720 S9: it was rude. So I think this is where I 692 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,160 S9: say again, when we lose the edge, then basically what 693 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,279 S9: have we got? We've got Christianity without messaging. Well, what 694 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,359 S9: the heck is that? It just is a nice group 695 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,120 S9: of people who get together, but there's no urgent message 696 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,879 S9: being put out. And if you don't have messaging, you 697 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,400 S9: really don't have Christianity. 698 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,680 S1: Yeah. Amen. And that's the tough part, you know, on 699 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,360 S1: that audio clip that I played before, the comment was asked, 700 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,320 S1: aren't you kind of giving, quote, tacit approval? That tacit approval, 701 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,000 S1: I think is what a lot of people struggle with. 702 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,920 S1: Talk to me about that. How do we handle that? 703 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,200 S9: Yes. Well, tacit approval, I think, is what we give 704 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,479 S9: when we act as though something is okay when it's not. Now, 705 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,040 S9: I don't have to go around shaking my finger at 706 00:36:16,190 --> 00:36:20,229 S9: people to avoid giving tacit approval. But when I am 707 00:36:20,270 --> 00:36:25,110 S9: acting as though something wrong is in fact right, then 708 00:36:25,150 --> 00:36:29,469 S9: I really believe I am guilty and I'm responsible for 709 00:36:29,510 --> 00:36:32,670 S9: pretending that something is acceptable to God when it's not. 710 00:36:32,989 --> 00:36:33,310 S2: Mm. 711 00:36:33,630 --> 00:36:36,790 S1: Joe, I tell you that website again, because it's just 712 00:36:36,790 --> 00:36:40,190 S1: chock full of great information. The video classes, information about 713 00:36:40,190 --> 00:36:43,350 S1: the challenge, the monthly call with pastors and just really 714 00:36:43,350 --> 00:36:46,270 S1: rich things that Joe writes about all the time. Remember, 715 00:36:46,270 --> 00:36:48,870 S1: he blogs daily, Joe Dallas online, he's got a podcast 716 00:36:48,870 --> 00:36:51,670 S1: that's fabulous as well. All kinds of books. One of 717 00:36:51,670 --> 00:36:54,430 S1: them on my information page. Great. It'll help you talk 718 00:36:54,430 --> 00:36:57,430 S1: with kindness and clarity on this topic. Back after this. 719 00:37:07,989 --> 00:37:11,230 S1: We're visiting with Joe Dallas. He's giving us some very good, 720 00:37:11,230 --> 00:37:15,690 S1: clear biblical information and how we respond pragmatically to so 721 00:37:15,690 --> 00:37:19,290 S1: many of the challenges that accompany this LGBTQ+ issue that 722 00:37:19,290 --> 00:37:23,529 S1: has saturated our culture today. Don't forget, he's a wonderful author. 723 00:37:23,530 --> 00:37:25,410 S1: I've got one of his books on our information page 724 00:37:25,489 --> 00:37:28,690 S1: for you to learn more about. Speaking particularly on this issue, 725 00:37:28,690 --> 00:37:31,210 S1: with kindness and clarity. That's who Joe is. That's how 726 00:37:31,210 --> 00:37:34,530 S1: he writes. Don't forget, he blogs daily at Joe Dallas Online. 727 00:37:34,530 --> 00:37:37,650 S1: He's got a podcast. All this great information can be 728 00:37:37,650 --> 00:37:41,370 S1: found at his website. Joe Dallas, easy peasy. Joe Dallas. 729 00:37:42,330 --> 00:37:44,009 S1: So let me go back to the conversation that we 730 00:37:44,010 --> 00:37:46,609 S1: were talking about before. And you feel that there's some 731 00:37:46,650 --> 00:37:48,969 S1: kind of drift, if I can put it that way, 732 00:37:49,010 --> 00:37:51,450 S1: some mission drift that we've gotten kind of vague or 733 00:37:51,450 --> 00:37:54,729 S1: that somehow, you know, first Kings 18, we've got our 734 00:37:54,730 --> 00:37:57,690 S1: feet in two different areas. We're limping between two opinions 735 00:37:57,690 --> 00:38:00,290 S1: on this issue, it seems, and in some respects, we've 736 00:38:00,330 --> 00:38:03,969 S1: actually compromised, which nowhere does Scripture tell us that we've 737 00:38:03,969 --> 00:38:07,529 S1: been given permission to compromise on truth. So take us 738 00:38:07,530 --> 00:38:10,930 S1: down this road, because, again, if we're a biblically literate 739 00:38:10,930 --> 00:38:13,210 S1: people and we are, all the evidence speaks to that 740 00:38:13,210 --> 00:38:15,759 S1: end if we care more about what the culture thinks 741 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,960 S1: about us than us being in obedience to our King. 742 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,320 S1: And evidence is there as well. How do we stay 743 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,520 S1: firm and biblical yet Christlike on this issue without being 744 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,360 S1: sucked into the vortex of compromise? 745 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,000 S9: I think we have to start with the basics. That 746 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,200 S9: means asking ourselves what we are here for. We are 747 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,480 S9: here as disciples, followers of Jesus Christ first and foremost, 748 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,960 S9: to love the Lord our God, to follow him, to 749 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,879 S9: learn of him, to take up our cross and deny ourselves. 750 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,800 S9: In the process of doing that, we want to express 751 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,000 S9: his heart and mind to the world. We go out, 752 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,759 S9: we preach the gospel. We make disciples. We have to 753 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,239 S9: accept from the beginning. Uh, and this is where I 754 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,960 S9: think we've kind of I don't know what happened, Janet. 755 00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:02,120 S9: Have we never really believed it or. We're just now 756 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:06,359 S9: catching on. Jesus said very plainly, don't be surprised when 757 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,320 S9: the world hates you. They didn't like me. They won't 758 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,870 S9: like you. And it's almost as if we sort of 759 00:39:13,989 --> 00:39:19,910 S9: thought he was speaking euphemistically. I think truthfully, in America. 760 00:39:20,550 --> 00:39:24,630 S9: Our nation has been wonderful. We we've lived in a 761 00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:27,509 S9: country that for, for a couple of centuries, has been 762 00:39:27,510 --> 00:39:31,830 S9: largely amenable to Christian teaching because so much of what 763 00:39:31,830 --> 00:39:36,510 S9: we are was founded on biblical concepts. And because of that, 764 00:39:36,510 --> 00:39:41,069 S9: maybe traditionally we haven't lived out the tension between the 765 00:39:41,070 --> 00:39:44,030 S9: Christian and the world, because in our country, the world 766 00:39:44,030 --> 00:39:49,390 S9: has been traditionally much friendlier to Christianity than say, it 767 00:39:49,390 --> 00:39:52,469 S9: has been in other nations. And now we're just getting 768 00:39:52,469 --> 00:39:56,069 S9: the hostility. And I mean, look no further than what 769 00:39:56,070 --> 00:39:58,509 S9: happened in Minneapolis just a few weeks ago. And you 770 00:39:58,510 --> 00:40:03,790 S9: know what? Don lemon is being celebrated for barging into 771 00:40:03,790 --> 00:40:08,950 S9: a church, disrupting a service and basically trampling on what? 772 00:40:08,989 --> 00:40:12,770 S9: On a time that was sacred to fellow Americans, all 773 00:40:12,810 --> 00:40:15,410 S9: because he and the other people there believed that their 774 00:40:15,410 --> 00:40:21,650 S9: cause was just, and thereby it was justifiable to invade. Uh, 775 00:40:22,170 --> 00:40:25,370 S9: a meeting of worship. Now, that is the hostility we're 776 00:40:25,370 --> 00:40:27,730 S9: facing now, and that's going to take the fortitude of 777 00:40:27,730 --> 00:40:30,330 S9: being able to say, look, we will not compromise truth 778 00:40:30,330 --> 00:40:32,770 S9: for the sake of getting along, but we also will 779 00:40:32,770 --> 00:40:35,890 S9: not become what you are trying to say we are. 780 00:40:35,890 --> 00:40:38,450 S9: We're not going to hate you, but we're going to 781 00:40:38,489 --> 00:40:41,450 S9: stand firm. You know, come what may. And I think 782 00:40:41,450 --> 00:40:46,810 S9: that may, maybe we've been afraid of becoming what the 783 00:40:46,810 --> 00:40:49,050 S9: world says we are. I think when the world keeps 784 00:40:49,050 --> 00:40:52,569 S9: saying we are hateful people, we become so afraid of 785 00:40:52,610 --> 00:40:57,330 S9: being that that we start overfiltering ourselves to the point 786 00:40:57,330 --> 00:41:00,530 S9: where you don't even know where we stand anymore. Mhm. 787 00:41:00,570 --> 00:41:03,730 S9: And just as your daughter's friend said, you know, we, 788 00:41:03,770 --> 00:41:07,170 S9: we mistakenly think we will win people if we are 789 00:41:07,170 --> 00:41:09,930 S9: perpetually nice to them and never say anything they don't like. 790 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,040 S9: That's actually not true. I was not one. Back to 791 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,280 S9: the truth, because people told me what I wanted to hear, 792 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,520 S9: and because they tiptoed around the idea of offending me. 793 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,239 S9: I was given truth, which was the job of the 794 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,160 S9: people who knew me. And then the Holy Spirit's job 795 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,480 S9: was to convict my heart. And here I think we're 796 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,320 S9: not accepting that basic partnership. We're called to accept when 797 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:37,720 S9: we are sharing truth with people. We do our part, 798 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,120 S9: which is to be clear, loving, respectful. And then the 799 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,640 S9: Holy Spirit's job is to do what we cannot do. 800 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,640 S9: And I think that if we will accept that and 801 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:51,280 S9: recognize it still works, it works to this day, not 802 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,120 S9: with everybody. People still have free will. And yes, our 803 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,160 S9: message will be rejected. But Janet, I really think we're 804 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,720 S9: assuming mistakenly, that if people reject our message, we must 805 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,560 S9: have done something wrong. That's not true. And this is 806 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,040 S9: where I say we shouldn't be surprised when we get pushback. 807 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,020 S1: Oh, that's such a good point. You know, I was 808 00:42:10,020 --> 00:42:12,580 S1: thinking earlier when you were talking. Gee, do we ever 809 00:42:12,580 --> 00:42:16,180 S1: read in Scripture where they hated Jesus? You just. And 810 00:42:16,180 --> 00:42:19,780 S1: you you answered that question by Jesus himself telling us, yes, 811 00:42:19,780 --> 00:42:22,460 S1: they hated me first. Okay. So I was thinking, when 812 00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:23,900 S1: he says to the woman caught in the act of 813 00:42:23,900 --> 00:42:26,860 S1: adultery and sexual under the canopy of sexual issues, right? 814 00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:29,660 S1: Go and sin no more. Was there any pushback that, oh, wow, 815 00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:31,739 S1: he was really restrictive by telling this woman who was 816 00:42:31,739 --> 00:42:34,660 S1: sexually loose that she shouldn't be doing that anymore. Well, 817 00:42:36,020 --> 00:42:37,939 S1: fast forward to the end of the story. He ends 818 00:42:37,940 --> 00:42:40,620 S1: up being crucified. If they hate you, remember they hated 819 00:42:40,620 --> 00:42:43,140 S1: me first. And it's important for us to remember that. 820 00:42:43,140 --> 00:42:45,500 S1: But I love the way that what you're doing is 821 00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:47,580 S1: you're taking us like a snow globe, and you're shaking 822 00:42:47,580 --> 00:42:49,700 S1: us so that we'll get a better picture on this, 823 00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:52,660 S1: which is, we don't wake up every morning. Here's Brother Paul, 824 00:42:52,660 --> 00:42:54,540 S1: we welcome you to the table. Do we want to 825 00:42:54,540 --> 00:42:57,060 S1: please God or do we want to please man? Now, 826 00:42:57,140 --> 00:42:58,779 S1: that doesn't mean we have a carte blanche to be 827 00:42:58,780 --> 00:43:01,500 S1: obnoxious to our fellow man, right? But if our primary 828 00:43:01,500 --> 00:43:04,299 S1: concern is to please our fellow man, then you have 829 00:43:04,300 --> 00:43:07,020 S1: to ask yourself, is that an idol? Is that a 830 00:43:07,260 --> 00:43:09,250 S1: and maybe self is the idol. In the middle of 831 00:43:09,250 --> 00:43:11,210 S1: all of that, you need to be affirmed, and the 832 00:43:11,210 --> 00:43:12,930 S1: only way you'll be affirmed is if you ever tell. 833 00:43:12,969 --> 00:43:15,290 S1: If you only tell people what they want to hear. Well, 834 00:43:15,290 --> 00:43:17,250 S1: aren't you glad God doesn't do that with us? 835 00:43:18,290 --> 00:43:21,610 S9: Well, I gotta tell you, one of my greatest weaknesses 836 00:43:21,650 --> 00:43:23,810 S9: is the desire to be liked. And I'm ashamed to 837 00:43:23,850 --> 00:43:26,450 S9: say I still have that at the age of 71. 838 00:43:26,690 --> 00:43:29,410 S9: But I think that all of us will have to ask, 839 00:43:29,410 --> 00:43:31,129 S9: do we want to be liked or do we want 840 00:43:31,130 --> 00:43:33,410 S9: to be faithful? Well, think about what you're going to 841 00:43:33,410 --> 00:43:35,129 S9: answer to God for, and I think you can answer 842 00:43:35,130 --> 00:43:36,090 S9: that question. 843 00:43:36,090 --> 00:43:39,290 S1: Wow, wow. That's such an important point, Joe. I can't 844 00:43:39,290 --> 00:43:41,690 S1: thank you enough. Will you take everything that's happening in 845 00:43:41,690 --> 00:43:43,970 S1: our culture? And I keep going back to this issue? 846 00:43:44,570 --> 00:43:46,650 S1: And as I said when we started, we've been friends 847 00:43:46,650 --> 00:43:47,810 S1: for decades, not years. 848 00:43:47,850 --> 00:43:48,290 S9: Yes. 849 00:43:48,330 --> 00:43:51,890 S1: And I never would have anticipated that this would have exploded. 850 00:43:51,890 --> 00:43:53,690 S1: To what I refer to this as the tip of 851 00:43:53,690 --> 00:43:56,770 S1: the spear. There's just something about how God is using 852 00:43:56,770 --> 00:43:59,450 S1: this issue to get us back into his word, to 853 00:43:59,489 --> 00:44:02,410 S1: really recognize what is truth, to meet the challenge of 854 00:44:02,410 --> 00:44:05,009 S1: speaking the truth, but always doing it in love. To 855 00:44:05,050 --> 00:44:08,470 S1: not compromise on those issues where there is no compromise. 856 00:44:08,469 --> 00:44:10,270 S1: And all the while, in the midst of this, in 857 00:44:10,270 --> 00:44:13,589 S1: a fallen world, be an ambassador for Christ. So I 858 00:44:13,590 --> 00:44:15,790 S1: love the challenge. It's not easy by any stretch of 859 00:44:15,790 --> 00:44:18,830 S1: the imagination. And as Joe said, boy, there's so many takeaways. 860 00:44:18,830 --> 00:44:21,310 S1: But one of them definitely is don't think you're going 861 00:44:21,310 --> 00:44:23,470 S1: to please everybody because you're not. What are you doing 862 00:44:23,510 --> 00:44:26,350 S1: to honor and glorify the Lord? Let the other chips 863 00:44:26,350 --> 00:44:28,790 S1: fall where they may. First and foremost, what are we 864 00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:31,430 S1: doing to love him and to tell other people about 865 00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:34,030 S1: his love? And like he said, don't forget that partnership. 866 00:44:34,190 --> 00:44:36,790 S1: When you speak truth that the Holy Spirit really is 867 00:44:36,790 --> 00:44:39,390 S1: the one doing the work, you're just a messenger. Joe, 868 00:44:39,390 --> 00:44:42,950 S1: thank you for a great conversation, Joe. I love it 869 00:44:42,989 --> 00:44:45,910 S1: when it's easy. Joe Dallas. Com you can listen to 870 00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:48,270 S1: his podcast. You can follow his blog. You can read 871 00:44:48,270 --> 00:44:50,910 S1: his books. Pastors, you can sign up for the monthly call. 872 00:44:50,910 --> 00:44:53,110 S1: You can get the video classes. All of it's there 873 00:44:53,110 --> 00:44:55,989 S1: at Joe Dallas. Com. Thank you Joe. I'm already looking 874 00:44:55,989 --> 00:44:58,509 S1: forward to our next conversation. Thank you friends. We'll see 875 00:44:58,510 --> 00:45:01,029 S1: you next time on In the Market with Janet Parshall.