1 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:11,039 S1: What loss are you navigating this holiday season? What grief 2 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,160 S1: are you walking through? I asked that question on our 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,000 S1: Chris Fabry Live Facebook page, and the answers to that 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,680 S1: question will just tear your heart out. There is such 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:25,239 S1: deep pain and loss, some from today, this morning, and 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,360 S1: then some who talk about losing someone they love 25 7 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,360 S1: years ago and the loss and the pain and the 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,440 S1: grief linger today at the radio backyard fence. You want 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,920 S1: to give you some help and hope from the number 10 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,800 S1: one church based grief support program in the world. They 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,080 S1: call it grief. Share. Many of you have heard about it. 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,159 S1: Maybe you've gone through their curriculum. I'd love to hear 13 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,240 S1: how Griefshare has made a difference for you today. When 14 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:56,240 S1: I saw they had a standalone book, their survival guide, 15 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,900 S1: Navigating the Holidays After a loss, I said, sign me up. 16 00:01:00,220 --> 00:01:03,500 S1: I want to talk about this. I've never been through griefshare, 17 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:07,140 S1: but I've heard others talk glowingly about it as well 18 00:01:07,140 --> 00:01:11,260 S1: as the companion program Divorcecare. Today I have two guests 19 00:01:11,260 --> 00:01:13,860 S1: for you who will answer questions and help us navigate 20 00:01:13,860 --> 00:01:17,740 S1: the fresh losses as well as the lingering losses in 21 00:01:17,740 --> 00:01:20,820 S1: our lives. And I find that those lingering losses sometimes 22 00:01:20,819 --> 00:01:23,580 S1: we can beat ourselves up for it's been this long. 23 00:01:23,580 --> 00:01:26,419 S1: It's been, you know, I lost my spouse X number 24 00:01:26,420 --> 00:01:28,580 S1: of years ago and it still hurts. And there must 25 00:01:28,580 --> 00:01:30,660 S1: be something wrong with me. If that's you, if you're 26 00:01:30,660 --> 00:01:33,179 S1: thinking that, I'm not going to tell you not to 27 00:01:33,220 --> 00:01:36,100 S1: think that, but I want you to listen because I 28 00:01:36,100 --> 00:01:38,500 S1: think you're going to get some help and some hope 29 00:01:38,700 --> 00:01:41,540 S1: straight ahead. And our lines are open for you today. Please, 30 00:01:41,540 --> 00:01:44,620 S1: if you are going through grief or you've been through 31 00:01:44,620 --> 00:01:51,660 S1: Griefshare and they made a difference, call this number (877) 548-3675. 32 00:01:51,700 --> 00:01:54,780 S1: I'd love to hear your question or your story today 33 00:01:54,780 --> 00:01:57,820 S1: at the back fence. Our team consists of Ryan McConaughey 34 00:01:57,860 --> 00:02:01,960 S1: doing all things technical. Trish is our producer. Lisa's around somewhere. 35 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,880 S1: I think Josh is here to answer your calls. And 36 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,080 S1: some of the most important team members are people who 37 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,639 S1: become friends and partners with us. We can't have these conversations. 38 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,760 S1: We can't introduce you to resources like the one we're 39 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,000 S1: going to talk about today without your support. If you 40 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,400 S1: go to Chris Hall and scroll down, you'll see how 41 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,640 S1: you can give a gift and receive a great thank 42 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,200 S1: you here in December. In fact, we're going to feature 43 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,959 S1: the authors of Hosanna in Excelsis tomorrow. Give a gift 44 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,840 S1: of any size will send it your way. And if 45 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,000 S1: you give a gift each month and become a back 46 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,280 S1: fence partner. Oh look, you get my weekly video. I 47 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,160 S1: call it the back fence post. And for the next 48 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,960 S1: three Thursdays, I'm telling you my three favorite Christmas hymns 49 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,440 S1: and carols and why the story behind that song coming 50 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,520 S1: from the book of Hosanna in Excelsis. So come on, 51 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,880 S1: join with us. There's a whole lot of reasons to 52 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,570 S1: do that, and we need your help to keep doing 53 00:02:57,570 --> 00:03:02,050 S1: what we're doing here. Just go to Chris Fabry. Scroll down. 54 00:03:02,050 --> 00:03:05,650 S1: You can receive this legacy hardcover gorgeous book with the 55 00:03:05,650 --> 00:03:08,890 S1: text of the hymns and notation and history and a 56 00:03:08,889 --> 00:03:15,090 S1: whole lot more. Go to Chris. One other note Keith 57 00:03:15,130 --> 00:03:17,610 S1: Getty was here yesterday, and he told me after the 58 00:03:17,610 --> 00:03:21,450 S1: program that he and Kristen are performing live from Royal 59 00:03:21,450 --> 00:03:26,530 S1: Albert Hall on Friday, December 19th. And he invited me 60 00:03:26,650 --> 00:03:29,730 S1: and he said, you can come too. So I have 61 00:03:29,730 --> 00:03:32,530 S1: a link. If you go to Chris Fabry live, there's 62 00:03:32,530 --> 00:03:35,570 S1: a link there at our website. I can't get you 63 00:03:35,570 --> 00:03:39,570 S1: on the plane and I'm not going to either. I'm 64 00:03:39,610 --> 00:03:44,010 S1: signing up to watch that at Royal Albert Hall live. 65 00:03:44,330 --> 00:03:47,850 S1: Home for Christmas. You can watch it live that evening 66 00:03:47,850 --> 00:03:51,450 S1: or anytime through the end of the year. Absolutely free. 67 00:03:51,770 --> 00:03:54,250 S1: You'll find the link. Where to sign up? Right there. 68 00:03:54,250 --> 00:03:59,350 S1: Chris Fabry Lives. Oh. All right. I cannot tell you 69 00:03:59,390 --> 00:04:02,070 S1: how many times I've heard a guest say, or I 70 00:04:02,110 --> 00:04:04,990 S1: have said to a caller, have you heard about Griefshare? 71 00:04:05,030 --> 00:04:08,110 S1: Have you heard about Divorcecare? And today we have two 72 00:04:08,150 --> 00:04:11,550 S1: guests who know a lot about those ministries. The first 73 00:04:11,750 --> 00:04:16,030 S1: is Samuel Hodges. Sam is president of Church Initiative, which 74 00:04:16,029 --> 00:04:19,430 S1: is over griefshare and divorcecare. There's an awful lot more 75 00:04:19,430 --> 00:04:21,310 S1: about you, Sam. If I read it all, we'd be 76 00:04:21,310 --> 00:04:23,830 S1: done with the program, so. Well, welcome to the program. 77 00:04:23,830 --> 00:04:24,830 S1: How are you doing today? 78 00:04:25,750 --> 00:04:27,789 S2: Hey, I'm doing really well. Chris, thank you so much 79 00:04:27,790 --> 00:04:29,350 S2: for having us on the program today. 80 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:32,350 S1: I love it, and I'd love to have Jeff too. 81 00:04:32,390 --> 00:04:34,630 S1: I was talking with Jeff Fahey, who's been a counselor 82 00:04:34,630 --> 00:04:38,070 S1: and trainer for the center for Biblical Counseling and Education 83 00:04:38,070 --> 00:04:43,630 S1: Biblical Counseling Center. He is now director, director, director of 84 00:04:43,630 --> 00:04:48,070 S1: Curriculum Development, which is the publishing ministry that produces the 85 00:04:48,070 --> 00:04:52,430 S1: video based curricula such as Divorcecare and Griefshare. Jeff, welcome 86 00:04:52,430 --> 00:04:54,070 S1: to the program. How are you doing today? 87 00:04:55,010 --> 00:04:57,169 S3: Hello. I'm doing well. Thanks for having us. 88 00:04:57,690 --> 00:05:03,930 S1: Featured resource is Griefshare Survival Guide navigating the holidays after loss. 89 00:05:04,250 --> 00:05:06,330 S1: We have a link to it as well. Just click 90 00:05:06,330 --> 00:05:13,530 S1: through today's information. Kris. Let me start with you, Sam. 91 00:05:13,690 --> 00:05:16,570 S1: How did you get involved in in Griefshare? I see 92 00:05:16,570 --> 00:05:19,370 S1: a lot about you with working in video and the 93 00:05:19,370 --> 00:05:23,609 S1: education that you've had and the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary 94 00:05:23,610 --> 00:05:25,330 S1: and the training that you've had. But how did you 95 00:05:25,330 --> 00:05:27,170 S1: get involved with Church Initiative? 96 00:05:28,410 --> 00:05:31,730 S2: Yeah. Well, when I graduated from seminary, my plan was 97 00:05:31,730 --> 00:05:34,770 S2: to become a pastor, and I had a buddy from college. 98 00:05:34,770 --> 00:05:37,490 S2: We were planning on starting a church together, and the 99 00:05:37,490 --> 00:05:39,850 S2: Lord just redirected me. Uh, he just told me not 100 00:05:39,850 --> 00:05:41,770 S2: to go and do that, and I didn't know what 101 00:05:41,770 --> 00:05:43,530 S2: I was going to do. But my pastor at the 102 00:05:43,529 --> 00:05:48,089 S2: time introduced me to the founder of Church Initiative. His 103 00:05:48,089 --> 00:05:52,250 S2: name is Steve Grissom, and he started the ministry, uh, 104 00:05:52,330 --> 00:05:57,710 S2: in 1993 and started with divorce care, and later on 105 00:05:57,710 --> 00:06:01,150 S2: he went ahead and developed Griefshare. And so just in 106 00:06:01,150 --> 00:06:04,030 S2: my time there with the ministry, with my background in 107 00:06:04,029 --> 00:06:08,150 S2: Christian education and television production, he just looped me in 108 00:06:08,630 --> 00:06:12,549 S2: to creating those video based resources. And so over the years, 109 00:06:12,550 --> 00:06:17,789 S2: I was responsible for developing Griefshare and Divorcecare curriculum for 110 00:06:17,790 --> 00:06:19,190 S2: churches around the world. 111 00:06:19,470 --> 00:06:22,830 S1: What have you heard then? And we'd be here all 112 00:06:22,830 --> 00:06:25,710 S1: afternoon long if you answered this question in toto. But 113 00:06:25,710 --> 00:06:29,230 S1: what have you heard from people about what Griefshare and 114 00:06:29,230 --> 00:06:32,310 S1: Divorcecare has done in their lives? Sam? 115 00:06:33,670 --> 00:06:36,590 S2: Yeah, I think and this this sounds cliché, but we 116 00:06:36,630 --> 00:06:40,070 S2: hear so many people say that it really saved their lives. 117 00:06:40,830 --> 00:06:45,150 S2: Because when people are going through the loss of a 118 00:06:45,150 --> 00:06:48,669 S2: loved one, they're dealing with a divorce. There's just so 119 00:06:48,670 --> 00:06:51,350 S2: much pain that people are dealing with. There's confusion. There's 120 00:06:51,390 --> 00:06:55,520 S2: hurt People are wondering what is something wrong with them? 121 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,960 S2: Are they losing their mind? Are they losing their faith? 122 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,320 S2: And so many times people are just at their wits end, 123 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,600 S2: and oftentimes people turn to things that are harmful to 124 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,240 S2: experience comfort, you know, because it feels good. But as 125 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,120 S2: we know, things that feel good aren't always good for us. 126 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,920 S2: And so a lot of times Griefshare Divorcecare helps people 127 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,320 S2: understand that they aren't crazy because they get together with 128 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,840 S2: other people who are dealing with the same thing. And 129 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:26,080 S2: Griefshare Divorcecare they help people to understand why they're feeling 130 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,360 S2: the way that they do, and help them to see 131 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,800 S2: that it really makes sense. And they're not. Again, they're 132 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,720 S2: not going crazy. And what they just need is just 133 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,800 S2: encouragement and support. And Griefshare and Divorcecare are really designed 134 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:40,920 S2: to provide those things to participants. 135 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:46,160 S1: And part of the the real truth of this, Jeff, 136 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,820 S1: is that a person realizes I'm not alone. There are 137 00:07:50,820 --> 00:07:53,980 S1: other people who have gone through these same kinds of things. And, 138 00:07:54,020 --> 00:07:57,100 S1: you know, every everybody's grief is unique. But I don't 139 00:07:57,100 --> 00:07:59,900 S1: have to go through this by myself. Right? 140 00:08:01,060 --> 00:08:05,620 S3: Absolutely. You made an important point when, uh, when you 141 00:08:05,620 --> 00:08:09,780 S3: talked about, uh, people other people have gone through this 142 00:08:09,940 --> 00:08:14,100 S3: so often when we experience the death of someone we love, 143 00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:17,540 S3: the grief is so intense, and it can even be 144 00:08:17,540 --> 00:08:22,660 S3: different from previous experiences of grief that people start to wonder, 145 00:08:23,620 --> 00:08:26,500 S3: is it is it? Is there something wrong with me? 146 00:08:26,860 --> 00:08:31,180 S3: Am I unique in what I'm experiencing? But when people 147 00:08:31,180 --> 00:08:37,179 S3: get together, like in grief share groups, they come to realize, no, 148 00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:40,819 S3: you know, these are the kinds of experiences that are 149 00:08:40,820 --> 00:08:45,500 S3: pretty common in grief, even though they are intense. Yeah. 150 00:08:45,540 --> 00:08:46,980 S3: Being able to talk about them, though. 151 00:08:47,380 --> 00:08:49,100 S1: I have a I have a question about that. Then 152 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:53,160 S1: a lot of times men are less inclined to go 153 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,880 S1: to counseling than women. Women will more often go first. Uh, 154 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,040 S1: and even go alone with grief. Are there more women 155 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,440 S1: who are in touch with that? I've. I'm struggling here. 156 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,520 S1: I need help with this. Uh, are more women going 157 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,679 S1: to grief share than men, Jeff? 158 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:18,160 S3: Uh, yeah. More. More women do go. Uh, I think overall, uh, 159 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,400 S3: to grieve, share. Uh, but it's important to recognize that 160 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:27,000 S3: people grieve in different ways. And in our culture, um, 161 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:32,920 S3: it's not uncommon for men to expect that, uh, they 162 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:38,800 S3: need to be silent, uh, in their grief, unfortunately. Um, 163 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,239 S3: but what men learn as they go to grief share 164 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:48,140 S3: is how helpful it is to be able to hear 165 00:09:48,140 --> 00:09:50,780 S3: about other people's experiences and to be able to talk 166 00:09:50,780 --> 00:09:55,940 S3: about their own experiences so that they can receive support 167 00:09:55,940 --> 00:09:58,180 S3: in a way that they otherwise could not. 168 00:09:58,740 --> 00:10:01,219 S1: That's one of the things I wanted to happen today. 169 00:10:01,580 --> 00:10:05,100 S1: Sam Hodges is joining us, president of Church Initiative over 170 00:10:05,140 --> 00:10:10,420 S1: Griefshare and Divorcecare. Jeffery is also with us, who deals 171 00:10:10,420 --> 00:10:12,939 S1: with a lot of the curriculum. He's director of Curriculum 172 00:10:12,940 --> 00:10:16,500 S1: development and the featured resource at Chris Fabry Live is 173 00:10:16,500 --> 00:10:21,699 S1: the Griefshare Survival Guide Navigating the Holidays After Loss. You 174 00:10:21,700 --> 00:10:24,700 S1: can see it there at Chris. Org. But I wanted 175 00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:27,940 S1: to tear down some of the walls, especially for men 176 00:10:27,980 --> 00:10:32,140 S1: who are listening, who are walking through their grief alone 177 00:10:32,300 --> 00:10:36,580 S1: and and have been doing that and are afraid, you know, 178 00:10:36,620 --> 00:10:39,500 S1: to get into a group setting or to even deal 179 00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:41,660 S1: with this. It's like, you know, I'm pushing this aside. 180 00:10:41,660 --> 00:10:47,270 S1: I'm just going through it. And you, you can do that. 181 00:10:47,270 --> 00:10:51,990 S1: But as Jeff and Sam are saying, there's some things 182 00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:54,990 S1: that can happen to you if you don't walk through 183 00:10:55,030 --> 00:10:59,270 S1: it authentically with other people coming alongside you and helping. 184 00:10:59,270 --> 00:11:01,189 S1: And there may I want to say this to to 185 00:11:01,230 --> 00:11:04,350 S1: any man who's listening, who's walking through grief, there may 186 00:11:04,390 --> 00:11:07,470 S1: be something that you are going through or have gone 187 00:11:07,470 --> 00:11:11,790 S1: through that would be so beneficial to someone else in 188 00:11:11,830 --> 00:11:14,750 S1: that group, as a matter of fact, so beneficial to 189 00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:17,230 S1: our conversation here today. So let me give you our 190 00:11:17,230 --> 00:11:24,070 S1: number (877) 548-3675. If you're a man and you've gone through grief, 191 00:11:24,070 --> 00:11:28,229 S1: share I want to hear your experience. Did it help you? 192 00:11:28,270 --> 00:11:34,670 S1: What happened? (877) 548-3675. Your questions and comments for our guests. 193 00:11:34,670 --> 00:11:49,730 S1: Straight ahead on Moody Radio. We're talking with Sam and 194 00:11:49,730 --> 00:11:53,930 S1: Jeff today at the back fence about holiday grief, whether 195 00:11:53,929 --> 00:11:58,170 S1: it's fresh grief. And again, someone in Facebook said an 196 00:11:58,170 --> 00:12:01,809 S1: hour ago when they posted an hour ago, someone passed away. 197 00:12:01,809 --> 00:12:04,650 S1: And they're dealing with that right now. And then others 198 00:12:04,650 --> 00:12:07,689 S1: are saying 25 years ago, as a matter of fact, 199 00:12:07,690 --> 00:12:11,330 S1: we have a caller who's talking about that. But Jeffery 200 00:12:11,370 --> 00:12:15,330 S1: is director of curriculum development, and Sam Hodges is president 201 00:12:15,330 --> 00:12:18,850 S1: of Church Initiative. And if you go to Chris Fabry. 202 00:12:19,090 --> 00:12:22,490 S1: Org click through today's information you'll see the Grief Share 203 00:12:22,530 --> 00:12:27,170 S1: Survival Guide. Didn't say that right but it's okay. Navigating 204 00:12:27,170 --> 00:12:30,010 S1: the holidays after loss. That's why I wanted to have 205 00:12:30,010 --> 00:12:33,530 S1: them on today. Kelly is in Orlando, Florida. Kelly, tell 206 00:12:33,530 --> 00:12:34,650 S1: me why you called today. 207 00:12:36,450 --> 00:12:39,730 S4: Um, I called because I I'm I'm right in the 208 00:12:39,730 --> 00:12:42,650 S4: midst of grief right now. I'm going through a divorce, 209 00:12:43,010 --> 00:12:50,070 S4: and I just completed a whole series of divorce care videos. But, um, 210 00:12:50,070 --> 00:12:53,350 S4: and the group meetings. But 25 years ago, I walked 211 00:12:53,350 --> 00:12:58,709 S4: through Griefshare, and, um, I've just recently been reflecting back. 212 00:12:58,750 --> 00:13:00,750 S4: It's hard to have hope for me right now in 213 00:13:00,750 --> 00:13:04,070 S4: the future, but I look back at what I experienced 214 00:13:04,070 --> 00:13:06,469 S4: when I was when I lost my daughter and I 215 00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:10,270 S4: had a couple miscarriages after she died, and Griefshare was 216 00:13:10,270 --> 00:13:14,390 S4: so pivotal for me. I mean, I, I healed from 217 00:13:14,390 --> 00:13:18,790 S4: the inside out. So I'm looking back, going, okay, God 218 00:13:18,790 --> 00:13:22,790 S4: carried me through that and I had hope afterwards. There 219 00:13:22,790 --> 00:13:25,470 S4: was beauty from the ashes, so I need to remember 220 00:13:25,470 --> 00:13:26,270 S4: that now. 221 00:13:26,910 --> 00:13:29,110 S1: How old was your daughter when she died? 222 00:13:30,110 --> 00:13:33,709 S4: She was 19 days old. She had a severe heart 223 00:13:33,710 --> 00:13:37,070 S4: defect we didn't know about until after she was born. 224 00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:39,110 S1: And tell us her name. 225 00:13:40,270 --> 00:13:40,750 S4: Ellie. 226 00:13:41,110 --> 00:13:44,090 S1: Ellie. Okay. That's one of the things that I've learned 227 00:13:44,090 --> 00:13:47,290 S1: about doing the programs like this is like, speak the name, 228 00:13:47,330 --> 00:13:50,170 S1: say the name, because it's not going to hurt your heart. Kelly. 229 00:13:50,170 --> 00:13:53,170 S1: For me to say Ellie's name, it's it it helps 230 00:13:53,170 --> 00:13:54,650 S1: us remember, right? 231 00:13:54,850 --> 00:13:56,490 S4: Mhm. Absolutely. 232 00:13:56,890 --> 00:14:00,090 S1: Yeah. Sam, what do you say to Kelly who's going 233 00:14:00,090 --> 00:14:04,050 S1: through this lingering grief and now fresh one with her divorce? 234 00:14:05,650 --> 00:14:08,969 S5: Yeah. Well I think she said it. Well there is hope. 235 00:14:08,970 --> 00:14:12,450 S5: And I'm just really grateful that Griefshare was able to 236 00:14:12,490 --> 00:14:17,130 S5: provide help and hope for her 25 years ago. And 237 00:14:17,130 --> 00:14:19,450 S5: I'm really grateful that she was able to find a 238 00:14:19,450 --> 00:14:25,050 S5: divorce care group. Uh, now to help her during this season. And, um, 239 00:14:25,050 --> 00:14:30,010 S5: I'm just really hopeful that she was able to build community, um, 240 00:14:30,050 --> 00:14:33,410 S5: as she participated in divorce care and really hopeful that 241 00:14:33,410 --> 00:14:36,570 S5: she's just leaning into the comfort that she experienced, uh, 242 00:14:36,570 --> 00:14:38,450 S5: in and through the group. Were you able to do 243 00:14:38,730 --> 00:14:41,250 S5: a survive on the holidays event as well? 244 00:14:41,390 --> 00:14:43,870 S4: Kelly I did. Yes I did okay. 245 00:14:44,070 --> 00:14:45,310 S5: Okay okay okay. 246 00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:49,350 S1: Describe that. Yeah. Kelly. Describe what? What is a surviving 247 00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:51,390 S1: the holidays event? What was that like? 248 00:14:52,590 --> 00:14:55,790 S4: Um, well, it was a it was a unique um, actually, 249 00:14:55,790 --> 00:14:59,430 S4: my griefshare that I completed was a, um, I did 250 00:14:59,430 --> 00:15:03,070 S4: it online, um, because of where I live, and I 251 00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:05,150 S4: have kids and work, and it was the only time 252 00:15:05,150 --> 00:15:10,950 S4: I could go, um, so our, our, you know, surviving 253 00:15:10,950 --> 00:15:13,950 S4: the holidays was also online, but, um, so we did 254 00:15:13,950 --> 00:15:16,270 S4: it as a group. Um, and it was, you know, 255 00:15:16,310 --> 00:15:20,630 S4: we watched great stories of teachers that, you know, are 256 00:15:20,670 --> 00:15:25,390 S4: using biblical truth. Um, like, just like I experience in Griefshare. 257 00:15:25,390 --> 00:15:28,670 S4: It's like the truth is being taught. And I know 258 00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:31,710 S4: it doesn't feel like it's true, but it is true 259 00:15:31,750 --> 00:15:34,230 S4: because we know the Word of God is true. And 260 00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:36,270 S4: then we have the hands and feet of Jesus around 261 00:15:36,270 --> 00:15:40,110 S4: us and the people that are there, um, sharing and 262 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,160 S4: feeling the same things that we are. So it's it's 263 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:44,040 S4: very healing. 264 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,120 S1: Yeah. Jeff, that must be music to your ears. 265 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:54,360 S3: Amen. Amen. And I think it it's so pivotal that, um, 266 00:15:55,480 --> 00:16:02,360 S3: people understand that going through the holidays after a divorce 267 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,040 S3: or the death of a loved one, it's always going 268 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,200 S3: to be hard. And there's. I think there's value in 269 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:14,880 S3: recognizing it's going to be difficult, but then also understanding 270 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,560 S3: that our loving heavenly Father is there to help us 271 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,600 S3: through it. And and he will see us through as 272 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,120 S3: we continue, uh, to, to be faithful to him. 273 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,520 S1: Yeah. Kelly. Somebody needed to hear your voice and your 274 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,960 S1: experience in what you're walking through. Thank you for being faithful. 275 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,120 S1: Talk about this a lot. Faithful to the pain. Faithful 276 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,500 S1: to allow that pain to do what it's doing in 277 00:16:40,540 --> 00:16:45,380 S1: you and then into somebody else's life. Who's walking through that? Um, 278 00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:48,020 S1: I think that one of the things I hear most 279 00:16:48,020 --> 00:16:52,020 S1: often is I don't am I normal? Is what I'm 280 00:16:52,060 --> 00:16:54,700 S1: going through normal? Jeff, what do you say to a 281 00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:56,660 S1: person who who says that? 282 00:16:58,260 --> 00:17:03,020 S3: Well, usually I talk about a couple of characteristics of 283 00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:07,940 S3: grief that people often don't know about. Don't think about. Um, 284 00:17:08,060 --> 00:17:12,859 S3: but the fact that grief affects us holistically as people 285 00:17:12,859 --> 00:17:18,500 S3: so that it can affect us physically, emotionally, spiritually, it 286 00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:24,139 S3: can affect relationships. Uh, and there's no prescribed time frame 287 00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:29,300 S3: or even prescribed order of experiences within grief. That's all 288 00:17:29,340 --> 00:17:32,620 S3: going to vary. And people need to understand that. So 289 00:17:32,619 --> 00:17:36,020 S3: they don't assume that if they don't grieve the way 290 00:17:36,060 --> 00:17:39,480 S3: somebody else they know has grieved that somehow they're doing 291 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,240 S3: it wrong. Uh, so people need to understand that that 292 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:48,679 S3: variety in people's experiences with grief is is valid. And 293 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,680 S3: and so that they don't see themselves as being somehow 294 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,560 S3: unusual in that regard. 295 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,080 S1: Well, and the whole idea of the stages, which came 296 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:02,240 S1: out long time ago as a, as a way to 297 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,920 S1: try to figure out, okay, where am I now and 298 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:06,600 S1: how far do I have to go to be out 299 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,320 S1: of this, out of the woods? You know, because it's 300 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,119 S1: it's a cyclical thing. You can be in one stage 301 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,760 S1: of grief and then then be in another ahead of it, 302 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,920 S1: you know, before it again. And it's like, well, I'm 303 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,080 S1: I'm crazy here. I'm not normal. It's like, no, you 304 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:25,960 S1: are where you are, right? 305 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,959 S3: That's right, that's right. Yeah. And those, those stages of grief, uh, 306 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,760 S3: were published at a time when there weren't a whole 307 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:39,859 S3: lot of studies on people's reactions to death and dying. 308 00:18:40,260 --> 00:18:42,619 S3: And so that's all people had to go with for 309 00:18:42,619 --> 00:18:49,780 S3: a long time. And unfortunately, what doctor Kubler-Ross presented became 310 00:18:49,820 --> 00:18:54,940 S3: understood as this rigid step by step progression you have 311 00:18:54,940 --> 00:18:58,820 S3: to go through. That's not how she initially intended it, 312 00:18:58,820 --> 00:19:02,460 S3: but that's how it got to be popularized in our culture. 313 00:19:02,740 --> 00:19:08,180 S1: Yeah. The Griefshare Survival Guide is a featured resource at Chris. Org. 314 00:19:09,260 --> 00:19:12,780 S1: But you just and that's Jeffery Sam Hodges who's president 315 00:19:12,780 --> 00:19:16,980 S1: of Church Initiative. You just mentioned the two hour event. 316 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:20,740 S1: And this is kind of something that churches can do 317 00:19:20,859 --> 00:19:25,140 S1: around the country, especially during the holidays, to foster to 318 00:19:25,180 --> 00:19:27,380 S1: to bring people in and show them a little bit 319 00:19:27,380 --> 00:19:29,740 S1: of what grief shares all about. Is that right? 320 00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:34,460 S5: Yeah. It's a it's a one time, two hour event 321 00:19:35,150 --> 00:19:37,470 S5: the churches can host and they can do it, like 322 00:19:37,470 --> 00:19:40,870 S5: Kelly said, in person. Or they can offer an online 323 00:19:40,869 --> 00:19:44,990 S5: group and people can join and just receive really practical 324 00:19:44,990 --> 00:19:48,910 S5: tips on how to deal with the holidays. And they 325 00:19:48,910 --> 00:19:52,190 S5: really kind of take the the mystery out of why 326 00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:55,950 S5: they are grieving the way they are, why it's so painful, 327 00:19:55,950 --> 00:20:00,030 S5: and they're actually hearing stories from people who've been through grief. 328 00:20:00,030 --> 00:20:02,429 S5: They're actually hearing from experts who have a lot of 329 00:20:02,430 --> 00:20:05,310 S5: insightful things to say, and many of them have actually 330 00:20:05,310 --> 00:20:08,550 S5: lost loved ones as well. And so you watch the 331 00:20:08,550 --> 00:20:11,310 S5: video and then after you watch the video, there's a 332 00:20:11,310 --> 00:20:15,590 S5: real low pressure discussion time. And, you know, I want 333 00:20:15,630 --> 00:20:18,550 S5: to really stay there for one second because you talked 334 00:20:18,550 --> 00:20:22,510 S5: about men who might not be comfortable going to a group. 335 00:20:22,510 --> 00:20:24,869 S5: Sometimes they might not want to go because they don't 336 00:20:24,869 --> 00:20:27,710 S5: want to share. And so I really want to emphasize 337 00:20:27,710 --> 00:20:30,750 S5: the fact that these are low pressure discussion groups. We 338 00:20:30,750 --> 00:20:35,290 S5: encourage our leaders not to force people to talk, but 339 00:20:35,290 --> 00:20:37,969 S5: just encourage them to do so if they're comfortable. And 340 00:20:37,970 --> 00:20:40,290 S5: so what that means is you can go to an 341 00:20:40,290 --> 00:20:44,130 S5: event like this and really benefit just from listening, just 342 00:20:44,130 --> 00:20:47,130 S5: from hearing what other people have to say. Because again, 343 00:20:47,130 --> 00:20:50,129 S5: in so doing, you start to realize that, okay, what 344 00:20:50,130 --> 00:20:52,609 S5: I'm going through is normal. And sometimes that can be 345 00:20:52,609 --> 00:20:55,850 S5: just enough to help a person survive the holidays. So 346 00:20:55,850 --> 00:20:58,449 S5: there's the event, the surviving the holidays event. And then 347 00:20:58,450 --> 00:21:02,889 S5: there's also the book. So each participant receives the holiday book, 348 00:21:03,290 --> 00:21:07,570 S5: the Holiday Survival guide. But this year what we've done 349 00:21:07,570 --> 00:21:10,050 S5: and this is this is new, is we've made it 350 00:21:10,050 --> 00:21:14,330 S5: possible for people to purchase the book independent of attending 351 00:21:14,330 --> 00:21:18,729 S5: a surviving holidays event. So especially now, because most of 352 00:21:18,730 --> 00:21:22,530 S5: the times churches offer these events prior to Thanksgiving, there's 353 00:21:22,530 --> 00:21:24,890 S5: still some going on, but not as many. And you 354 00:21:24,890 --> 00:21:30,929 S5: can find a group at griefshare. Org forward slash Griefshare. 355 00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:35,590 S5: Org forward slash holidays. You can also find the book there. 356 00:21:35,790 --> 00:21:39,030 S5: And you again, you can get the book without signing 357 00:21:39,030 --> 00:21:42,830 S5: up for an event and what you get in addition 358 00:21:42,830 --> 00:21:44,830 S5: to the book. When you get when you get the book, 359 00:21:44,869 --> 00:21:49,750 S5: you also get access to a really, really valuable, helpful, encouraging, 360 00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:53,510 S5: comforting video, which is very similar to the video that 361 00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:57,310 S5: people watch at the seminar. And so that, plus the 362 00:21:57,310 --> 00:22:00,830 S5: guide can really give you everything you need to survive 363 00:22:00,869 --> 00:22:03,310 S5: the holidays. And so we really want to encourage people 364 00:22:03,310 --> 00:22:06,189 S5: to check that out at griefshare. Org forward slash. 365 00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:10,710 S1: And that's why we wanted to have this program today. 366 00:22:10,910 --> 00:22:13,590 S1: As a matter of fact, all of our callers right 367 00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:17,150 S1: now are men, which doesn't happen every day. You know, 368 00:22:17,150 --> 00:22:20,869 S1: we had a first caller who's the mom of Ellie Call, 369 00:22:21,230 --> 00:22:23,350 S1: but now here are some men. And the first step 370 00:22:23,350 --> 00:22:26,630 S1: is Jim in Illinois. Jim, tell me why you called today. 371 00:22:27,910 --> 00:22:32,690 S6: Oh, hello. Uh, yes. Um, I called because when I 372 00:22:32,970 --> 00:22:35,290 S6: turned on my radio and heard it, I said, oh 373 00:22:35,330 --> 00:22:39,129 S6: my goodness. Uh, right now I'm going through a grief 374 00:22:39,130 --> 00:22:45,290 S6: share with my daughter. She started off first going to it, and, uh, 375 00:22:45,410 --> 00:22:48,730 S6: and then I, I says, you know, and then her 376 00:22:48,730 --> 00:22:52,730 S6: and I talked, and then I started going to it and, uh, 377 00:22:52,850 --> 00:22:55,410 S6: and my son is going to a grief share also 378 00:22:55,410 --> 00:22:57,450 S6: in Texas. I'm here in Illinois. 379 00:22:57,609 --> 00:23:00,330 S1: Who did you lose, Jim? Who passed away? 380 00:23:01,730 --> 00:23:04,970 S6: Uh, my wife, it was, uh, my wife. Uh, her 381 00:23:04,970 --> 00:23:09,410 S6: and I have been married 45 years, and, uh. Yes, yes. 382 00:23:10,130 --> 00:23:12,330 S1: Tell me her name. That's that's the. You knew I 383 00:23:12,330 --> 00:23:14,370 S1: was going to ask you that. What's your wife's name? 384 00:23:15,050 --> 00:23:16,770 S6: Ida. Ida? Yes. 385 00:23:16,810 --> 00:23:21,170 S1: Okay. Yeah. So here's my question to you, Jim. What 386 00:23:21,210 --> 00:23:23,850 S1: did you did you have any kind of fear or. 387 00:23:23,930 --> 00:23:25,450 S1: It's like, I don't know if I want to go 388 00:23:25,450 --> 00:23:27,650 S1: to a group like this. Was there anything that held 389 00:23:27,650 --> 00:23:31,140 S1: you back? Um, when your daughter said, hey, dad, come 390 00:23:31,140 --> 00:23:31,740 S1: with me. 391 00:23:34,260 --> 00:23:37,420 S6: I think it's just, uh, biggest thing is just just 392 00:23:37,420 --> 00:23:42,179 S6: being in a group, sharing, you know, and things like that. And, um, uh, 393 00:23:42,540 --> 00:23:46,060 S6: you know, and I didn't mind sharing, but I just 394 00:23:46,060 --> 00:23:49,220 S6: didn't want to, I just it just, I was, I 395 00:23:49,260 --> 00:23:52,180 S6: think I was a little uncomfortable with it. Yes. But 396 00:23:52,180 --> 00:23:55,179 S6: then after I did go, after my daughter was going, 397 00:23:55,220 --> 00:23:59,460 S6: then I talked to my son. He lives in Texas area, and, um, 398 00:23:59,660 --> 00:24:02,020 S6: he's going to it. And I said, oh my goodness, 399 00:24:02,380 --> 00:24:05,780 S6: I think I should check it out. And so I did. 400 00:24:05,820 --> 00:24:11,020 S6: And it's, it's a it's got pretty good, uh, sessions where, uh, 401 00:24:11,060 --> 00:24:15,460 S6: people share, uh, what, what they've gone through. And then, 402 00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:19,140 S6: of course, uh, they got the videos and you have 403 00:24:19,140 --> 00:24:21,820 S6: the two people who are, uh, over it, you know, 404 00:24:21,859 --> 00:24:25,180 S6: monitoring us and kind of keeping it going. And it's 405 00:24:25,220 --> 00:24:28,720 S6: a it's a honestly, it's it's a pretty good group 406 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:30,480 S6: of Sharon. 407 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,800 S1: And and you see there then that you're not what 408 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,080 S1: we've just talked about. You're not alone in the grief. 409 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,280 S1: It's it's sharing this pain. Has it helped you? I mean, 410 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,080 S1: it doesn't take away the pain of losing Ida after 411 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,800 S1: 45 years. That pain is still there. But how has 412 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,919 S1: it helped you in in your journey today? 413 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,320 S6: Well, I think the biggest thing for me, especially, uh, 414 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,840 S6: she she she died in June 5th, which is my 415 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,879 S6: son's birthday. And he was there. My daughter was there, 416 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,440 S6: my granddaughter was there, and, uh, daughter in law was there, 417 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:15,160 S6: and we were all there, and, uh. So she. 418 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,800 S1: There it is right there. There's there's the pain that 419 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,400 S1: comes right up and it sneaks up on you, doesn't it, Jim? 420 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,960 S1: And you know what? I want you to hear what 421 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,300 S1: Sam and Jim have to say about that. The sneaking up, 422 00:25:29,580 --> 00:25:33,580 S1: because that shows that you had something really, really good. 423 00:25:34,100 --> 00:25:36,060 S1: And there are people around the country right now who 424 00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:39,939 S1: are praying for Jim for for God's mercy to, to 425 00:25:39,980 --> 00:25:42,060 S1: be poured out in your life as you walk through 426 00:25:42,060 --> 00:25:44,940 S1: that grief. So hang on. Don't go anywhere. We'll come back. 427 00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:47,020 S1: I want to get Sam and Jeff to respond to 428 00:25:47,060 --> 00:25:50,740 S1: Jim's situation right there. More straight ahead on Moody Radio. 429 00:25:50,780 --> 00:26:08,100 S1: This is Chris Fabry live. How do you navigate this 430 00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,780 S1: time of year after you've had a deep loss in 431 00:26:11,780 --> 00:26:15,020 S1: your life? It could be today or yesterday or last 432 00:26:15,020 --> 00:26:18,060 S1: week or 10 or 25 years ago. What do you 433 00:26:18,060 --> 00:26:22,020 S1: do with the grief? That's what our guests are talking 434 00:26:22,020 --> 00:26:27,760 S1: about today. The Grief Share Survival Guide is our featured resource, 435 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,879 S1: the book Navigating the Holidays After Loss. We're going to 436 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,840 S1: send a copy to Jim and us, and you can 437 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,760 S1: find out more about it, as well as the Griefshare 438 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,080 S1: holidays where you can find out more about it right there, 439 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,360 S1: but I something happened there. Sam and Jeff. Sam is 440 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,320 S1: the president of Church Initiative. Jeff is the director of 441 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,600 S1: curriculum development. Something happened there when Jim was talking, when 442 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,600 S1: his voice caught and it's like, oh, there it is again, 443 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,280 S1: that emotion that's coming up. And that is a good thing. 444 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,639 S1: That's not something to rush past. So Jeff, talk about 445 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:05,800 S1: what we just heard. 446 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,840 S3: Sure. Um, well, what Jim has experienced is what we 447 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:17,680 S3: call in grief, share an emotional ambush where you suddenly 448 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:23,639 S3: experience this surge of emotion, uh, and often tears when 449 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,699 S3: you are reminded of your loved one because of some 450 00:27:28,700 --> 00:27:32,180 S3: sight or or smell or an event, or even a 451 00:27:32,180 --> 00:27:36,220 S3: topic of conversation, any of those things could be triggers 452 00:27:36,220 --> 00:27:41,180 S3: for this surge of strong emotion. And you're right, these 453 00:27:41,180 --> 00:27:46,500 S3: are entirely normal for us to experience. And they're actually 454 00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:53,220 S3: reminders of how special that loved one was in our lives. 455 00:27:53,420 --> 00:27:55,460 S3: And so we need to see him as such and 456 00:27:55,460 --> 00:27:57,460 S3: certainly not be embarrassed by him. 457 00:27:57,820 --> 00:28:01,580 S1: Yeah, but that's hard, especially for men who are really strong. 458 00:28:01,580 --> 00:28:03,660 S1: And I don't want to break down and I don't 459 00:28:03,660 --> 00:28:07,100 S1: want to shed tears. You know, that's you've lived for 460 00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:09,700 S1: a long time thinking that men are, you know, boys, 461 00:28:09,740 --> 00:28:12,140 S1: big boys don't cry, that kind of thing. That's hard. 462 00:28:12,180 --> 00:28:15,139 S1: That's a hard hurdle to get over, isn't it, Sam? 463 00:28:16,980 --> 00:28:22,100 S5: Yeah. It is. And I think that's why people need 464 00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:27,550 S5: help Surviving the holidays. There's just when there's so much 465 00:28:27,550 --> 00:28:32,949 S5: dread that people have because just like Jim, um, choked 466 00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:36,110 S5: up a bit there again, that's normal. But people want 467 00:28:36,150 --> 00:28:40,070 S5: to avoid that. They're embarrassed. They're thinking, what's going to 468 00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:42,670 S5: happen if I'm at a party and I choke up, 469 00:28:42,670 --> 00:28:44,710 S5: or if I'm out shopping and I choke up when 470 00:28:44,710 --> 00:28:47,270 S5: I'm talking to a cashier. They don't want to go 471 00:28:47,270 --> 00:28:50,550 S5: through that. They don't want the spotlight to be on them. 472 00:28:51,070 --> 00:28:54,350 S5: And that's understandable. Um, but one of the things that 473 00:28:54,350 --> 00:28:57,830 S5: that does that can be harmful is it can really 474 00:28:57,830 --> 00:29:01,030 S5: encourage people to isolate during the holidays. I remember interviewing 475 00:29:01,030 --> 00:29:03,750 S5: a lady years ago, and she said she wanted to 476 00:29:03,750 --> 00:29:07,310 S5: go to sleep the day before Thanksgiving and not wake 477 00:29:07,310 --> 00:29:09,870 S5: up until the day after New Year's. She just wanted 478 00:29:09,870 --> 00:29:13,830 S5: to skip all of it. And that is a normal feeling. 479 00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:18,350 S5: But again, you that's sometimes that's not healthy. And we 480 00:29:18,350 --> 00:29:20,070 S5: don't I don't want to give the impression that it's 481 00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:24,530 S5: never good to, um, get alone with God and experience solitude. 482 00:29:24,930 --> 00:29:28,330 S5: But when we isolate ourselves from other people, then we're 483 00:29:28,330 --> 00:29:31,450 S5: cutting ourselves off from things that can actually help us. 484 00:29:31,610 --> 00:29:35,530 S5: But when you're going through the holidays, there's so many triggers, 485 00:29:35,530 --> 00:29:37,970 S5: so many things, because the holidays are just a time 486 00:29:37,970 --> 00:29:41,290 S5: when people focus on the things that we're often grieving, 487 00:29:41,290 --> 00:29:43,690 S5: that we've lost friends and family. But that's what the 488 00:29:43,690 --> 00:29:47,729 S5: holidays are all about. And we hear songs, and we 489 00:29:48,010 --> 00:29:51,130 S5: see things on television that just remind us of what 490 00:29:51,130 --> 00:29:54,650 S5: we've lost. And that's just coming at us again and 491 00:29:54,650 --> 00:29:59,730 S5: again and again on the radio, again on television, at church. 492 00:30:00,050 --> 00:30:02,450 S5: You're just being bombarded with it. And that's why people 493 00:30:02,450 --> 00:30:05,530 S5: want to step back. And so again, that's why I 494 00:30:05,570 --> 00:30:09,010 S5: survive in the holidays. Event can be so helpful because 495 00:30:09,010 --> 00:30:11,490 S5: you can go and talk with other people who get it. 496 00:30:11,810 --> 00:30:16,250 S5: They understand. And that's really helpful. And it's also helpful because, 497 00:30:16,570 --> 00:30:20,050 S5: you know, one of the reasons people get embarrassed about 498 00:30:20,050 --> 00:30:23,830 S5: having those experiences because they think sometimes that that is 499 00:30:24,430 --> 00:30:28,550 S5: bothering other people and they don't want to, um, they 500 00:30:28,550 --> 00:30:30,910 S5: don't want to be a problem. But when you're in 501 00:30:30,910 --> 00:30:34,270 S5: a grief share group, you're with people who completely understand, 502 00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:36,750 S5: and so they're patient with you. They're not going to 503 00:30:36,790 --> 00:30:39,190 S5: tire of you talking about your loved one. So it's 504 00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:42,830 S5: a really supportive and encouraging environment. And we also provide 505 00:30:42,830 --> 00:30:46,550 S5: a lot of practical tips to help people deal with 506 00:30:46,750 --> 00:30:50,350 S5: situations during the holidays that they'll commonly experience. 507 00:30:50,670 --> 00:30:53,150 S1: Yeah, and they're not going to force you to talk 508 00:30:53,150 --> 00:30:56,350 S1: if you don't want to, you know, to share. Yeah. 509 00:30:56,390 --> 00:30:59,750 S1: And just like, um, what Jim was saying, he was 510 00:30:59,790 --> 00:31:02,870 S1: taking it, taking a while to get through there and 511 00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:06,630 S1: then being able to open up. Uh, I remember the 512 00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:09,870 S1: story of Frank deford. He talked about his little daughter, Alex, 513 00:31:09,870 --> 00:31:13,070 S1: who died. And every time he would see a school 514 00:31:13,110 --> 00:31:16,950 S1: bus go by, it would hit him. Boom. This the 515 00:31:16,990 --> 00:31:19,970 S1: ambush that you talked about a little earlier, Jeff Wood 516 00:31:19,970 --> 00:31:23,890 S1: would come there remembering her getting on that school bus 517 00:31:23,890 --> 00:31:25,890 S1: the first time, and then she couldn't because she was 518 00:31:25,890 --> 00:31:30,810 S1: so sick. And that was just this, uh, visual image. Or, 519 00:31:30,850 --> 00:31:33,010 S1: like you say, the ornament on the tree. You know, 520 00:31:33,050 --> 00:31:37,130 S1: this was my daughter's favorite ornament. Or my wife loved 521 00:31:37,170 --> 00:31:40,610 S1: or my husband loved Christmas. And this brings it all back, 522 00:31:40,610 --> 00:31:44,250 S1: and it's so painful. And yet it's so good to 523 00:31:44,290 --> 00:31:46,690 S1: remember and to be able to do that. So that's 524 00:31:46,690 --> 00:31:50,890 S1: part of what Griefshare helps you through. And I want 525 00:31:50,890 --> 00:31:53,690 S1: to talk with Dan in Indiana next. Dan, why did 526 00:31:53,690 --> 00:32:02,490 S1: you call today? There he is. Hey Dan, go right ahead. 527 00:32:04,250 --> 00:32:07,370 S7: Oh yes. Thank you I, I, I don't usually call 528 00:32:07,370 --> 00:32:10,450 S7: in to things but I this hit really hit home. Uh, 529 00:32:11,090 --> 00:32:13,930 S7: several years ago, my wife and I lost our son. 530 00:32:14,130 --> 00:32:16,090 S7: And he was one of. He was one of a 531 00:32:16,130 --> 00:32:20,860 S7: set of twins And, um, I won. The thing that 532 00:32:20,860 --> 00:32:24,020 S7: I felt I needed to express was the difference in 533 00:32:24,020 --> 00:32:27,700 S7: how my wife and I grieved. Um, I was raised by. 534 00:32:28,020 --> 00:32:30,180 S7: I was raised by a father who allowed me to 535 00:32:30,220 --> 00:32:32,420 S7: be either happy or angry. And those were the two 536 00:32:32,420 --> 00:32:36,060 S7: emotions I was allowed. Uh, crying was not something that 537 00:32:36,060 --> 00:32:41,100 S7: was acceptable. And, um. And my wife felt guilt. I 538 00:32:41,100 --> 00:32:44,260 S7: felt anger because I felt like it happened on my watch. 539 00:32:44,300 --> 00:32:48,340 S7: I was the protector, the provider, and I failed. And 540 00:32:48,340 --> 00:32:52,140 S7: my wife felt guilt, uh, because she thought, could she 541 00:32:52,180 --> 00:32:54,460 S7: have done something different? Could she have done this? Could 542 00:32:54,460 --> 00:32:58,979 S7: she have done that? Um. And I simply tell the 543 00:32:58,980 --> 00:33:02,020 S7: story for that reason, just to emphasize that women and 544 00:33:02,020 --> 00:33:06,260 S7: men grieve differently and and it it caused problems for 545 00:33:06,260 --> 00:33:10,219 S7: my wife and I, um, early on. But I simply 546 00:33:10,220 --> 00:33:14,979 S7: say this, that God was in play and the his 547 00:33:15,020 --> 00:33:18,120 S7: invisible hand. I was at a hospital, and I happened 548 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,280 S7: to run into a woman, and something compelled me to 549 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,120 S7: strike up a conversation with her. She was with an 550 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:29,240 S7: organization for specifically for fathers who've lost children. And I 551 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,680 S7: started talking to her, and it just was unequivocal that 552 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,440 S7: God had put her and I together. I started to 553 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,800 S7: share my story, and she immediately asked if I'd be 554 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,200 S7: willing to talk to other fathers who had lost children. 555 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,760 S7: I said absolutely. And I really feel that that was 556 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,280 S7: a blessing for me because it helped me get out 557 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,640 S7: of the anger phase. Um, I think Satan was in 558 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,560 S7: my ear working, using that anger to, to distance me 559 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:02,040 S7: from from God. Um, during that early years, I stopped 560 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,400 S7: going to church because I just, I was so angry, 561 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,120 S7: I just could not bring myself to attend church. And, uh, 562 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,319 S7: that that was part, part of the process that I 563 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,899 S7: walked through to get over that anger and eventually deal 564 00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:22,300 S7: with the grief and a more productive way of helping 565 00:34:22,340 --> 00:34:28,620 S7: other fathers healthy. And so I just thought those were 566 00:34:28,620 --> 00:34:31,540 S7: two things that I wanted to share was, you know, 567 00:34:31,580 --> 00:34:36,500 S7: I'm always looking for that proverbial burning bush. You know, God. Okay, 568 00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:38,500 S7: this has happened. Now, what do you want me to 569 00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:43,259 S7: do with this? Um, losing Charlie, uh, I think God 570 00:34:43,260 --> 00:34:47,739 S7: wanted me to, uh, in part, help others through the 571 00:34:47,739 --> 00:34:50,940 S7: loss and also help me through the loss. Yeah. 572 00:34:50,980 --> 00:34:53,700 S1: Uh, okay. So you answered the. I had two questions 573 00:34:53,700 --> 00:34:56,700 S1: for you. The one was Charlie. Tell me Charlie's name. 574 00:34:57,020 --> 00:35:00,100 S1: And the second was, did did the marriage survive all 575 00:35:00,140 --> 00:35:01,900 S1: of this? The anger and the guilt. 576 00:35:02,820 --> 00:35:06,379 S7: It did. Um. I'm not proud of myself for how 577 00:35:06,380 --> 00:35:09,819 S7: I acted. Um, there was a counselor at the at 578 00:35:09,860 --> 00:35:12,379 S7: the hospital who said. Who looked right at me and 579 00:35:12,380 --> 00:35:15,799 S7: said that 80% of Marriages dissolve after the loss of 580 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,279 S7: a child. And and I told her to get out 581 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,520 S7: of the room and not come back. And I told her, 582 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,840 S7: and I said, we're going to survive, we're going to 583 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,000 S7: make it. And, uh, I think it's with God's presence 584 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,680 S7: that we were able to survive. And we are, you know, 585 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:37,080 S7: we just celebrated our 25th anniversary, uh, five days ago. Wow. And, uh, 586 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,640 S7: we continued to, um, lean on each other. We lean in, 587 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,520 S7: not away. And I think that that's helped us through 588 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,360 S7: all of life's challenges. We have four other children. Uh, 589 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,399 S7: and I think in some ways, it's helped me be 590 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,920 S7: a better father to my remaining children. Yeah. So, um. 591 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,040 S1: You're a you're a trophy. You're a trophy of God's 592 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,680 S1: grace and mercy in the middle of the anger and 593 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,560 S1: the guilt and so honest and open. I just am 594 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,160 S1: so glad, Dan, that you that you called today, um. 595 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,060 S1: And that you've been faithful again with that pain. Sam, 596 00:36:15,100 --> 00:36:16,900 S1: respond to what Dan just shared. 597 00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:21,940 S5: Yeah, well, I echo what you're what you're saying. I just, I, 598 00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:27,180 S5: I really appreciate his commitment to his marriage and that he, um, 599 00:36:27,780 --> 00:36:31,540 S5: weathered that and just really glad that he has a 600 00:36:31,540 --> 00:36:34,900 S5: good relationship with his wife and his children. And I 601 00:36:34,900 --> 00:36:38,540 S5: think it's wonderful that he's able to now give back 602 00:36:39,060 --> 00:36:41,819 S5: and help other people. And that's one of the things 603 00:36:41,820 --> 00:36:44,339 S5: that we see happen so many times when people go 604 00:36:44,340 --> 00:36:47,940 S5: through grief. Share is that the Lord does something in 605 00:36:47,980 --> 00:36:52,219 S5: their lives. He helps them to experience him in a 606 00:36:52,219 --> 00:36:55,700 S5: new way. He gives them new perspectives. He helps them 607 00:36:55,700 --> 00:36:58,660 S5: deal with the pain. And they realize that even though 608 00:36:58,660 --> 00:37:02,180 S5: the pain doesn't go away, that there is hope and 609 00:37:02,180 --> 00:37:04,340 S5: that God has been with them through that. And if 610 00:37:04,340 --> 00:37:06,060 S5: he's been with them through that, he can be with 611 00:37:06,060 --> 00:37:09,739 S5: them through anything. But at the same time, they also 612 00:37:10,060 --> 00:37:12,549 S5: for some reason and really, it's because God wants this 613 00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:15,630 S5: to happen. They want to turn around and help others. 614 00:37:16,110 --> 00:37:19,150 S5: And that has just been such so instrumental in helping 615 00:37:19,150 --> 00:37:24,589 S5: Griefshare spread. And we love to see that because God, 616 00:37:24,630 --> 00:37:27,710 S5: the God of all comfort, comforts us so that we 617 00:37:27,710 --> 00:37:30,509 S5: can share that comfort with others. You know, that's second 618 00:37:30,510 --> 00:37:34,190 S5: Corinthians chapter one, verses three and four. And so I 619 00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:37,430 S5: to me, that's just emblematic. His experience is emblematic of 620 00:37:37,469 --> 00:37:40,069 S5: that verse. That's what we want to see. That's what 621 00:37:40,110 --> 00:37:41,790 S5: God wants to see. And we just give him all 622 00:37:41,790 --> 00:37:42,830 S5: the glory for it. 623 00:37:43,190 --> 00:37:47,230 S1: That's Sam Hodges and Jeff Flores joining us as well. Uh, 624 00:37:47,230 --> 00:37:51,469 S1: from Griefshare and Church Initiative. Jeff is the director of 625 00:37:51,469 --> 00:37:54,109 S1: curriculum development. I want to get your response to Dan, 626 00:37:54,150 --> 00:37:57,310 S1: thanks for your call. If you go to Chris. Org, 627 00:37:57,350 --> 00:38:02,270 S1: you'll see Griefshare Survival guide navigating the Holidays after loss. 628 00:38:02,590 --> 00:38:05,990 S1: We've got a link to their website as well, where 629 00:38:06,030 --> 00:38:08,149 S1: maybe you're a church and you say, we don't have 630 00:38:08,150 --> 00:38:10,450 S1: this in our church and we want to start something 631 00:38:10,450 --> 00:38:12,730 S1: like this? It might give you a vision. That's one 632 00:38:12,730 --> 00:38:15,210 S1: of the things that comes out of a conversation like this. 633 00:38:15,210 --> 00:38:29,850 S1: Just go to Chris. Thanks for joining us today for 634 00:38:29,850 --> 00:38:35,049 S1: Chris Fabry live online, Chris Fabry. When I heard that 635 00:38:35,050 --> 00:38:38,770 S1: Griefshare was coming out with this standalone book, The Griefshare 636 00:38:38,770 --> 00:38:43,690 S1: Survival Guide Navigating the Holidays After Loss, I said, Tricia, 637 00:38:43,690 --> 00:38:47,049 S1: go find somebody. And Jeffery is with us, director of 638 00:38:47,050 --> 00:38:51,930 S1: curriculum development and Sam Hodges, president of Church Initiative. And 639 00:38:51,969 --> 00:38:53,810 S1: I got another question for you here. But before we 640 00:38:53,810 --> 00:38:57,690 S1: go to that, Jeff, talk about what Dan shared with 641 00:38:57,690 --> 00:38:59,850 S1: his son, the loss of his son, the anger, the 642 00:38:59,850 --> 00:39:04,330 S1: guilt that he went through the this, um, this appointment 643 00:39:04,330 --> 00:39:07,090 S1: that he made with someone, a stranger in the hospital 644 00:39:07,170 --> 00:39:09,910 S1: who pointed him in a good direction. What was your 645 00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:11,430 S1: observation of his call? 646 00:39:13,110 --> 00:39:18,270 S3: Well, I really appreciated how he shared the value of 647 00:39:18,270 --> 00:39:22,390 S3: helping others, because sharing the comfort that you have received 648 00:39:22,390 --> 00:39:26,670 S3: with others is, as Sam said earlier, uh, part of 649 00:39:26,670 --> 00:39:31,029 S3: God's design for how our lives should be lived. And 650 00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:34,910 S3: that's why it brings a blessing to people like Dan 651 00:39:35,270 --> 00:39:41,590 S3: in Griefshare. We also share five other signs of healing, uh, 652 00:39:41,590 --> 00:39:48,870 S3: from grief that people can use as, as, uh, sort 653 00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:54,589 S3: of like Guideposts for their journey through grief. If I may, 654 00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:58,430 S3: I'll just go through these other five signs of healing. 655 00:39:58,630 --> 00:40:03,190 S3: The first that we talk about is accepting the loss, uh, 656 00:40:03,190 --> 00:40:09,049 S3: rather than ignoring it or trying to avoid it. Uh, 657 00:40:09,050 --> 00:40:13,810 S3: another sign of healing is dealing with painful emotions. The anxieties, 658 00:40:13,810 --> 00:40:20,370 S3: the fears, the angers. These emotions are really like signposts 659 00:40:20,370 --> 00:40:24,129 S3: of what's significant to a person. And so if we 660 00:40:24,130 --> 00:40:26,770 S3: respond to them in a God honoring way that actually 661 00:40:26,770 --> 00:40:30,490 S3: can help us to heal. Another sign of healing is 662 00:40:30,489 --> 00:40:35,490 S3: adjusting to the world without your loved one. This involves 663 00:40:35,489 --> 00:40:38,810 S3: figuring out what might need to be changed in your 664 00:40:38,810 --> 00:40:42,730 S3: regular routines now without your loved one, and it might 665 00:40:42,730 --> 00:40:48,610 S3: also involve recognizing how your loss even affects your own identity. 666 00:40:48,770 --> 00:40:53,010 S3: For example, if you've become a widow or widower, another 667 00:40:53,010 --> 00:40:59,049 S3: sign of healing is addressing ultimate questions. Those questions that 668 00:40:59,050 --> 00:41:04,570 S3: we often have because of a tragedy about God's character, 669 00:41:04,730 --> 00:41:08,339 S3: his plan, Land and even about the afterlife. Those are 670 00:41:08,340 --> 00:41:13,380 S3: important questions to pursue. And then another sign of healing 671 00:41:13,380 --> 00:41:18,219 S3: is continuing life without forgetting your loved one. 672 00:41:18,739 --> 00:41:19,140 S1: Um. 673 00:41:19,580 --> 00:41:22,660 S3: I know, um, I can't remember if it was Dan 674 00:41:22,660 --> 00:41:29,980 S3: or his wife. Uh, struggled with some guilt. And oftentimes 675 00:41:29,980 --> 00:41:35,260 S3: Grievers do experience guilt about the prospect of moving forward 676 00:41:35,260 --> 00:41:40,219 S3: in their lives, and yet life responsibilities press in on them. 677 00:41:40,219 --> 00:41:43,700 S3: And so there's that, that they have to move forward. 678 00:41:44,540 --> 00:41:47,500 S3: And so we want help to help people understand how 679 00:41:47,540 --> 00:41:51,780 S3: to do that, but not forgetting about the loved one. 680 00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:54,500 S3: Your loved one was a part of your life for 681 00:41:54,940 --> 00:41:59,379 S3: a season and a reason by God's design. So we 682 00:41:59,380 --> 00:42:02,459 S3: want people to capitalize on what they might have learned, 683 00:42:02,860 --> 00:42:08,240 S3: the blessings they received from that lost loved one. Uh, 684 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,719 S3: and use those blessings not only to grow personally, but 685 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:16,440 S3: also to bless others. And this also just. 686 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,200 S1: Listening to that, Jeff, just listening to that makes me 687 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,080 S1: think that there's somebody listening today who says, well, I've 688 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,200 S1: done I've gone through that. I've seen that in my life. 689 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,560 S1: And I am, you know, struggling with these questions and 690 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,719 S1: doing it as well as I can. It's like I 691 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,680 S1: must be making some headway. That's encouraging, isn't it? 692 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:39,760 S3: Absolutely. And as we've said before, you don't just go 693 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:46,520 S3: through these, uh, um, mile markers, these signs of healing, uh, 694 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,799 S3: in a linear, stepwise fashion. You might cycle through them 695 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,840 S3: numerous times as you grow in your grief journey. Yeah. 696 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,560 S1: I want you to talk with a pastor, Doug. Doug's 697 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,360 S1: on the line. Doug, what's your question for our guest today? 698 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,020 S8: Uh, yes. I very much appreciate you all having this 699 00:43:07,020 --> 00:43:10,819 S8: program today. We are. I'm currently walking through for the 700 00:43:10,820 --> 00:43:17,580 S8: first time the journey with a husband and father who is, uh, 701 00:43:17,580 --> 00:43:23,060 S8: going through divorce and actively doing so. And my question 702 00:43:23,060 --> 00:43:26,340 S8: really is, um, this is the first time for me 703 00:43:27,140 --> 00:43:30,380 S8: walking this journey with somebody from our church, but, uh, 704 00:43:30,620 --> 00:43:34,859 S8: what the best. Yeah. I mean, should I stick one 705 00:43:34,900 --> 00:43:38,620 S8: on one? Should we start a group? Uh, there are 706 00:43:38,620 --> 00:43:41,219 S8: seven children who are 14, and under that are in 707 00:43:41,219 --> 00:43:45,859 S8: middle of all this. Is there a grief share for kids? 708 00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:47,819 S8: I just kind of am feeling. I mean, I don't know, 709 00:43:47,860 --> 00:43:49,980 S8: just listening to the program and thought, all right, Lord, 710 00:43:50,020 --> 00:43:53,700 S8: you've presented this today and I am in need of 711 00:43:53,700 --> 00:43:54,940 S8: wisdom and help here. 712 00:43:55,420 --> 00:43:59,020 S1: Well, I'm so glad you picked up the phone and called. Sam, 713 00:43:59,020 --> 00:44:00,020 S1: let's start with you. 714 00:44:01,500 --> 00:44:04,400 S5: Yeah, well, thank you so much for walking through that 715 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,600 S5: with him. And, um, that is that's a huge responsibility 716 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:13,440 S5: and we'd love to help you with that. And, you know, 717 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,000 S5: whether or not I guess I would say it's maybe 718 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,279 S5: it's not an either or maybe it's a both and 719 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,080 S5: maybe the, the one on one counseling and support needs 720 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,840 S5: to continue. Um, but maybe there's also a way to 721 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,080 S5: either get a divorce care group started or point him 722 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,960 S5: to an existing one in your area that's already going on. 723 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,759 S5: And that way he can benefit from the counsel that 724 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,520 S5: he would receive from the group and the encouragement and 725 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,280 S5: the support. But also, you know, you know him as 726 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,120 S5: a pastor. And so then you can, uh, help him 727 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,799 S5: process and figure out the best way to apply what 728 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,560 S5: he's learning from the divorce care group. Uh, the other 729 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,840 S5: thing is, we also have divorcecare surviving the holidays events 730 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,200 S5: that are going on. And so, you know, he can 731 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:06,250 S5: visit divorcecare for holidays. Find an event and also get 732 00:45:06,250 --> 00:45:09,049 S5: a Divorce Care Survival Guide that also has tips and 733 00:45:09,050 --> 00:45:12,210 S5: practical suggestions on how to deal with the pain of 734 00:45:12,210 --> 00:45:13,250 S5: the holiday season. 735 00:45:13,890 --> 00:45:18,130 S1: Jeff, are there groups for kids? Is that something that 736 00:45:18,130 --> 00:45:18,810 S1: you do? 737 00:45:20,090 --> 00:45:25,050 S3: Uh, well, part of the divorce care package of resources 738 00:45:25,050 --> 00:45:29,650 S3: is a program we call DC 4K Divorce Care for kids. 739 00:45:29,690 --> 00:45:35,009 S3: And it it's a a suite of resources that parents 740 00:45:35,050 --> 00:45:39,530 S3: can access to help the kids who are dealing with 741 00:45:39,570 --> 00:45:43,810 S3: the loss of mom or dad from the relationship. Yeah. 742 00:45:44,250 --> 00:45:47,089 S1: Doug, I when I heard your voice, it's like, I 743 00:45:47,090 --> 00:45:49,770 S1: don't know where to turn. I don't know what to do. 744 00:45:49,969 --> 00:45:53,330 S1: And that's exactly what this program was all about. And 745 00:45:53,370 --> 00:45:57,530 S1: though we were, you know, mainly focused on Griefshare, divorcecare 746 00:45:57,530 --> 00:46:01,630 S1: is a huge part of what they do at the 747 00:46:01,870 --> 00:46:05,509 S1: church initiative. So hang on, I want to get your information, 748 00:46:05,510 --> 00:46:08,149 S1: get your phone number and address and see if we 749 00:46:08,150 --> 00:46:11,710 S1: can't get you in touch with some of those resources. 750 00:46:11,710 --> 00:46:15,189 S1: If you go to the website, Chris, you will see 751 00:46:15,190 --> 00:46:18,190 S1: a link to that survival guide. We've been talking about 752 00:46:18,190 --> 00:46:23,230 S1: navigating the holidays after loss, and there are those events 753 00:46:23,230 --> 00:46:27,350 S1: that are going on in churches probably near you as well. 754 00:46:27,630 --> 00:46:30,550 S1: Wanted you to know about that. Thank you for your support. 755 00:46:30,550 --> 00:46:33,189 S1: That allowed us to have this kind of conversation with 756 00:46:33,190 --> 00:46:37,430 S1: Sam Hodges, President of Church Initiative, Jeffery, who is the 757 00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:40,670 S1: Director of Curriculum development. Again, you can find out more 758 00:46:40,870 --> 00:46:46,509 S1: at the website. Chris. The Lehmans are here tomorrow to 759 00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:49,750 S1: talk about Christmas music. Don't miss it on Chris Fabry Live, 760 00:46:49,790 --> 00:46:54,030 S1: a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.