1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 S1: Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,160 S1: downloading this podcast, and I hope you hear something that 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,560 S1: will really encourage and edify you. But before you start 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,400 S1: to listen, let me take a moment of your time 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,399 S1: and tell you about this month's truth tool. It's called 6 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,640 S1: secure How to Have a Healthy Attachment to God. And 7 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,360 S1: it follows that very often, whatever our relationship is like 8 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,000 S1: with authority figures, predominantly our parents, we somehow transferred to 9 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,040 S1: how we see God. So if we have an angry parent, 10 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,319 S1: he's an angry God. If it's a distant parent, he's 11 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,520 S1: a God who's not there. I think it's important we 12 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,680 S1: understand who God really is. And in this wonderful book 13 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,760 S1: called secure, you're going to discover the character of God 14 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,120 S1: and how deeply in love God is with you. It's 15 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,839 S1: our truth tool. Our truth tools are my way of 16 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,680 S1: saying thank you because we are listener supported radio. So 17 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,600 S1: if you'd like a copy of secure, just call eight 7758. 18 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,760 S1: That's eight 7758. Give a gift of any amount. My 19 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,840 S1: way of saying thank you for supporting the program is 20 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,000 S1: I'll send you a copy of secure. You can also 21 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,480 S1: do this online at in the Market with Janet Parshall. 22 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,560 S1: Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover 23 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,930 S1: of the book secure. Click on the photo. Go right 24 00:01:01,930 --> 00:01:03,970 S1: on through. Make your donation and we'll send you a 25 00:01:03,970 --> 00:01:06,770 S1: copy again of secure. If you want to consider becoming 26 00:01:06,770 --> 00:01:09,930 S1: a partial partner, that is the ever increasing circle of 27 00:01:09,930 --> 00:01:12,090 S1: friends who give every single month at a level of 28 00:01:12,130 --> 00:01:14,369 S1: their own choosing. And my way of saying thank you 29 00:01:14,370 --> 00:01:16,810 S1: is this you always get the truth tool for each 30 00:01:16,810 --> 00:01:18,929 S1: and every month. And in addition to that, you get 31 00:01:18,930 --> 00:01:21,890 S1: a weekly newsletter that includes some of my writing and 32 00:01:21,890 --> 00:01:24,450 S1: a little audio piece just for my partial partners. So 33 00:01:24,450 --> 00:01:27,450 S1: either way, thank you in advance for prayerfully considering the 34 00:01:27,450 --> 00:01:30,690 S1: opportunity to financially support in the market with Janet partial 35 00:01:30,690 --> 00:01:32,730 S1: and keeping it on the air. Now, I hope you 36 00:01:32,770 --> 00:01:34,930 S1: hear something that will encourage you to get out and 37 00:01:34,930 --> 00:01:37,890 S1: influence and occupy in the marketplace of ideas. 38 00:01:39,010 --> 00:01:40,569 S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 39 00:01:40,850 --> 00:01:43,089 S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 40 00:01:43,209 --> 00:01:45,290 S4: Americans worshiping government over God. 41 00:01:45,610 --> 00:01:49,010 S5: Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years. 42 00:01:49,010 --> 00:01:51,330 S4: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated every. 43 00:01:51,330 --> 00:02:07,180 S5: Time we hear a lot of. Hi friends. 44 00:02:07,180 --> 00:02:09,740 S1: Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you 45 00:02:09,740 --> 00:02:12,660 S1: so much for spending the hour with me. I just 46 00:02:12,660 --> 00:02:14,620 S1: want to put a verse on the table and ask 47 00:02:14,620 --> 00:02:17,060 S1: us to think about it for one minute. Romans five 48 00:02:17,100 --> 00:02:21,900 S1: eight But God demonstrates his own love for us in this. 49 00:02:22,220 --> 00:02:25,300 S1: And then he points out exactly what this is. While 50 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:29,020 S1: we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Now let 51 00:02:29,020 --> 00:02:31,740 S1: that sink in. In other words, we weren't perfect people. 52 00:02:31,740 --> 00:02:34,900 S1: We weren't lovable people. We weren't sinless people. We were 53 00:02:34,900 --> 00:02:40,220 S1: still sinners. And Christ. Then does this sacrificial act on 54 00:02:40,220 --> 00:02:44,060 S1: the cross at Calvary. He pays the penalty for our sins. 55 00:02:44,060 --> 00:02:47,420 S1: We were guilty as charged. We were the ones who 56 00:02:47,419 --> 00:02:49,700 S1: had the sign around their neck that says guilty as 57 00:02:49,700 --> 00:02:52,980 S1: charged penalty death. Then by man came death. The Bible 58 00:02:52,980 --> 00:02:56,060 S1: tells us, and yet God loves us so much God 59 00:02:56,260 --> 00:02:59,380 S1: demonstrates his love toward us. As the author of Romans says, 60 00:02:59,620 --> 00:03:02,419 S1: and that while we were still sinners, not perfect, not excellent, 61 00:03:02,460 --> 00:03:04,980 S1: not good. He died for us. You know, when you 62 00:03:04,980 --> 00:03:06,700 S1: think about it, that's pretty amazing. I mean, let me 63 00:03:06,700 --> 00:03:09,180 S1: just ask you to put on your spiritual thinking cap 64 00:03:09,180 --> 00:03:12,739 S1: for a minute. So would you die for somebody who 65 00:03:12,740 --> 00:03:15,660 S1: is guilty? I mean, would you step in and do 66 00:03:15,660 --> 00:03:18,220 S1: a sacrificial giving of your life? I mean, I love this, 67 00:03:18,220 --> 00:03:20,660 S1: by the way. That's why I love great literature. It's 68 00:03:20,660 --> 00:03:23,500 S1: called classics because it sticks around for old times sake, 69 00:03:23,500 --> 00:03:26,940 S1: because it speaks to transcendent themes. So take, for example, 70 00:03:26,940 --> 00:03:29,380 S1: the novel that can be identified in its first sentence. 71 00:03:29,380 --> 00:03:31,340 S1: It was the best of times. It was the worst 72 00:03:31,340 --> 00:03:33,940 S1: of times. You don't use a lifeline or call a friend. 73 00:03:33,940 --> 00:03:35,540 S1: Can you tell me who wrote it? If you said 74 00:03:35,540 --> 00:03:38,020 S1: Charles Dickens. Spot on, what's the story? A Tale of 75 00:03:38,060 --> 00:03:41,620 S1: Two Cities. And in this film, that's a historical novel 76 00:03:41,620 --> 00:03:44,180 S1: that's set between London and Paris, and it all takes 77 00:03:44,180 --> 00:03:47,580 S1: place during the French Revolution. You are introduced to two characters, 78 00:03:47,580 --> 00:03:51,860 S1: Charles Darnay and Sydney Carton. And what's interesting, and I 79 00:03:51,860 --> 00:03:53,540 S1: won't give it away because I hope you will read 80 00:03:53,540 --> 00:03:56,950 S1: the book. But in this story you have themes of 81 00:03:56,950 --> 00:04:01,190 S1: sacrifice and resurrection and social injustice. And it all ends 82 00:04:01,510 --> 00:04:06,110 S1: in this profoundly famous act of self-sacrifice at the guillotine. 83 00:04:06,510 --> 00:04:08,910 S1: Now we read that, and something stirs in the human heart. 84 00:04:08,910 --> 00:04:10,670 S1: It goes to, if I can borrow from Lincoln, the 85 00:04:10,670 --> 00:04:13,110 S1: better angels of our nature, and we're drawn toward a 86 00:04:13,110 --> 00:04:18,070 S1: story like that. And yet, here's the ultimate story of self-sacrifice, 87 00:04:18,070 --> 00:04:23,349 S1: of resurrection, of really satisfying biblical justice. And that was 88 00:04:23,350 --> 00:04:26,789 S1: Christ paying the penalty for our sins. And it's pretty amazing. 89 00:04:26,790 --> 00:04:29,349 S1: And yet it's still a sticky wicket for some people. 90 00:04:29,350 --> 00:04:31,350 S1: If I can borrow from the Brits for a minute. Why? 91 00:04:31,750 --> 00:04:34,390 S1: And I'll give you the 50 cent theological term for this. 92 00:04:34,670 --> 00:04:40,070 S1: Why is this whole idea of substitutionary atonement problematic? It 93 00:04:40,070 --> 00:04:42,310 S1: says it right there in Romans. Shouldn't that be enough? Well, 94 00:04:42,310 --> 00:04:43,870 S1: we're going to dig into this, and we're going to 95 00:04:43,870 --> 00:04:46,469 S1: talk more about things that God does with our sin, 96 00:04:46,470 --> 00:04:48,870 S1: and some things he will never do with our sin. 97 00:04:49,150 --> 00:04:50,950 S1: And if time allows, I want to dive into the 98 00:04:50,950 --> 00:04:52,990 S1: subject of hell as well, because I think that's all 99 00:04:52,990 --> 00:04:55,080 S1: a part of this conversation. Who do you think I'd 100 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,960 S1: call on for this conversation? Oh, you definitely don't need 101 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,560 S1: a lifeline or a friend. Doctor Sam Storms is going 102 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,560 S1: to teach us because he is, quite frankly, a superb 103 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,880 S1: Bible teacher. He spent more than four decades in ministry 104 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,000 S1: as a pastor and a professor. He was a visiting 105 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,080 S1: professor of theology at Wheaton College. He served as serves 106 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,520 S1: now as a member of the Council of the Gospel Coalition, 107 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,760 S1: past president of the Evangelical Theological Society. Uh, he most 108 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,560 S1: recently founded and now serves as executive director for Convergence 109 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,880 S1: Church Network. He is an unbelievable author. He writes and 110 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,600 S1: writes and writes and at his website, Sam storms I 111 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,159 S1: spent a couple of days there this week. It is like, 112 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,040 S1: if I can borrow a comparison here, being in DC, 113 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,159 S1: it's like the Library of Congress. Theologically, he's got so 114 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,560 S1: many different topics, all of them beautifully written, and I 115 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,160 S1: commend that website to you, which is why you're going 116 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,440 S1: to find it on my website. But it's real easy 117 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,599 S1: to remember it's just his name. Sam storms sandstorms.org. So 118 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,770 S1: roll up our sleeves And this is going to be 119 00:05:52,770 --> 00:05:55,330 S1: a conversation where you are reminded again that when we 120 00:05:55,370 --> 00:05:57,290 S1: come to faith in Christ, our heart is transformed, but 121 00:05:57,290 --> 00:06:00,170 S1: our mind is renewed. So we think differently now that 122 00:06:00,170 --> 00:06:02,130 S1: we have faith in Christ. And we're going to think 123 00:06:02,130 --> 00:06:06,170 S1: biblically and critically. And the maturing saint must necessarily be 124 00:06:06,170 --> 00:06:09,650 S1: thinking critically, deeply, a higher idea of God and a 125 00:06:09,650 --> 00:06:12,970 S1: deeper dive into His word. So, Sam, the warmest of welcomes. 126 00:06:12,970 --> 00:06:15,410 S1: Thank you, thank you, thank you for just this panoply 127 00:06:15,410 --> 00:06:18,050 S1: of titles and authors and books that you've given us. 128 00:06:18,050 --> 00:06:20,770 S1: I just so appreciate it. So when you wrote an article, 129 00:06:20,770 --> 00:06:22,850 S1: it's also in your book, A Dozen Things God Did 130 00:06:22,850 --> 00:06:26,130 S1: With Your Sin. Um, you talk about number one being 131 00:06:26,130 --> 00:06:29,970 S1: the fact that he becomes fully man, God incarnate in 132 00:06:29,970 --> 00:06:32,849 S1: the person of Jesus Christ. That chasm of sin by 133 00:06:32,850 --> 00:06:35,729 S1: man has been bridged by the cross of Calvary, and 134 00:06:35,730 --> 00:06:38,530 S1: the ultimate sacrifice has been paid. The unblemished Lamb of 135 00:06:38,529 --> 00:06:41,130 S1: God took away the sins of the world. So this 136 00:06:41,130 --> 00:06:44,489 S1: wonderful theological term that nobody uses in everyday conversation, unless 137 00:06:44,490 --> 00:06:49,410 S1: you're a seminarian, is substitutionary atonement. It is like square 138 00:06:49,450 --> 00:06:54,339 S1: one In Christianity 101. How and when did this become 139 00:06:54,339 --> 00:06:55,620 S1: a controversial topic? 140 00:06:57,140 --> 00:06:59,180 S6: Well, Janet, it's good to be with you again today. 141 00:06:59,180 --> 00:07:02,060 S6: And yeah, that's a question that is constantly on my mind. 142 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:05,820 S6: And the more and more I think about it, I 143 00:07:05,820 --> 00:07:10,420 S6: think it may well be a reflection not from reading Scripture, 144 00:07:10,420 --> 00:07:13,980 S6: not from some experience in church life, but I think 145 00:07:13,980 --> 00:07:17,500 S6: the surrounding culture has affected the way that many people, 146 00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:21,020 S6: even professing Christians, think. And we've got to this point 147 00:07:21,020 --> 00:07:24,060 S6: where we think that the idea of divine wrath or 148 00:07:24,060 --> 00:07:29,220 S6: justice is cruel and unusual, and that it is somehow 149 00:07:29,420 --> 00:07:31,900 S6: not consistent with the God of love and grace and 150 00:07:31,900 --> 00:07:34,820 S6: mercy that we read about in Scripture. And they think 151 00:07:34,820 --> 00:07:39,300 S6: that somehow that wrath or God's righteous response to sin 152 00:07:40,140 --> 00:07:43,260 S6: isn't necessary, that why can't he just, you know, as 153 00:07:43,260 --> 00:07:46,420 S6: I often say, wave the Wand of Mercy and sprinkle 154 00:07:46,420 --> 00:07:50,380 S6: pixie dust on us and cause all of our opposition 155 00:07:50,380 --> 00:07:53,740 S6: to him to disappear. What is it about the character 156 00:07:53,740 --> 00:07:57,020 S6: of God that requires that he hold us accountable for 157 00:07:57,020 --> 00:08:00,660 S6: our sin? And of course, the thing people say, well, 158 00:08:00,660 --> 00:08:02,820 S6: wait a minute. If he holds all of us accountable 159 00:08:02,820 --> 00:08:05,300 S6: for our sin, what hope do Christians have? Well, the 160 00:08:05,300 --> 00:08:07,820 S6: hope that we have is that he held Christ accountable 161 00:08:07,820 --> 00:08:11,580 S6: for our sins in our place. That's what substitution means 162 00:08:11,940 --> 00:08:15,940 S6: in our stead. In our place. Acting as our representative, 163 00:08:16,380 --> 00:08:20,460 S6: the judgment and the wrath that we deserved. He endured voluntarily, 164 00:08:20,460 --> 00:08:25,180 S6: lovingly and willingly. So I think that is that's largely 165 00:08:25,180 --> 00:08:27,860 S6: the influences of culture to a certain extent. I think 166 00:08:27,860 --> 00:08:32,179 S6: people are just uncomfortable bringing up this subject around non-believers 167 00:08:32,179 --> 00:08:34,060 S6: because they're afraid they're going to get ridiculed. Like, what's 168 00:08:34,059 --> 00:08:36,260 S6: the matter? Isn't your God loving enough that he can 169 00:08:36,260 --> 00:08:39,300 S6: deal with your sin without, um, you know, having his 170 00:08:39,300 --> 00:08:41,780 S6: son crucified? So I think those are the kind of 171 00:08:41,820 --> 00:08:43,699 S6: the factors that play into this. 172 00:08:44,300 --> 00:08:46,140 S1: You set that up beautifully, and I'm glad we have 173 00:08:46,140 --> 00:08:47,790 S1: up to a break. Let me pick this up when 174 00:08:47,790 --> 00:08:49,949 S1: we come back. This is, in the words of my mom, 175 00:08:49,990 --> 00:08:53,069 S1: a delicious conversation. And by that, I mean it's one 176 00:08:53,070 --> 00:08:55,750 S1: that really makes us dig deep, not knowing just what 177 00:08:55,750 --> 00:08:59,550 S1: we believe, but why we believe it. So this idea 178 00:08:59,550 --> 00:09:02,470 S1: that there has been a cultural influence, not only on 179 00:09:02,470 --> 00:09:05,510 S1: this idea of substitutionary atonement, but even on the whole 180 00:09:05,510 --> 00:09:08,710 S1: concept of sin, because maybe we don't have a deep 181 00:09:08,710 --> 00:09:11,390 S1: enough perspective on what sin is. So, Sam, I think 182 00:09:11,390 --> 00:09:13,350 S1: that's a good place to pick up when we come back. 183 00:09:13,590 --> 00:09:17,030 S1: Let's talk about sin. Are we getting soft on sin? 184 00:09:17,230 --> 00:09:19,949 S1: Are we trying to minimize it again, for this idea 185 00:09:19,950 --> 00:09:22,110 S1: that we have a God of our own creation who 186 00:09:22,110 --> 00:09:24,310 S1: really isn't all that bothered by sin? There's a lot 187 00:09:24,309 --> 00:09:26,830 S1: to examine there. Doctor Sam Storms is with us. Keep 188 00:09:26,830 --> 00:09:29,030 S1: that thinking, cap on. We're just getting started. A lot 189 00:09:29,030 --> 00:09:46,560 S1: more ground to cover right after this. Are you constantly 190 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:48,760 S1: feeling like God is disappointed in you, or do you 191 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,360 S1: feel like he's too busy for your problems? Well, that's 192 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,120 S1: why I've chosen secure how to have a healthy attachment 193 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,160 S1: to God as this month's truth tool. Learn to grasp 194 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,560 S1: the depth of God's love for you. Ask for your 195 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,480 S1: copy of secure. When you give a gift of any 196 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,880 S1: amount to in the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 197 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,959 S1: 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with 198 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:13,840 S1: Janet Parshall. We're visiting with Doctor Sam Storms who is 199 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,360 S1: the founder of Enjoying God Ministries. And also he is 200 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,600 S1: now the only the man that founded. But he's serving 201 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,480 S1: as the executive director for the Convergence Church Network. And 202 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,840 S1: the joy about talking to Doctor Storms, as he's got 203 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,520 S1: so many wonderful books and so many topics, I, I, 204 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,559 S1: I'm challenged and excited every time we get an opportunity 205 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,040 S1: to be together, because we could spend hours just on 206 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,640 S1: one of his books that he's written. And so I 207 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,840 S1: get to hop and skip, and sometimes we'll open the phones, 208 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,719 S1: as you know, because you love it. And I'll let 209 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,920 S1: you ask any question you have of Doctor Storms on 210 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,970 S1: any question about the Bible or Christianity. But sometimes, like today, 211 00:10:47,210 --> 00:10:48,970 S1: I want to hone in so we have a deeper 212 00:10:48,970 --> 00:10:51,530 S1: dive into God's Word to understand pretty much one of 213 00:10:51,530 --> 00:10:54,850 S1: the rudimentary aspects of biblical Christianity, which is this idea 214 00:10:54,850 --> 00:10:57,890 S1: of sin. And so among the many books that Doctor 215 00:10:57,890 --> 00:11:00,570 S1: Storms has authored is a Dozen Things God Did with 216 00:11:00,570 --> 00:11:03,330 S1: Your Sin and Three Things He'll Never Do. And the 217 00:11:03,330 --> 00:11:06,930 S1: very first thing that Doctor Storms points out is that 218 00:11:06,929 --> 00:11:10,970 S1: he laid your sin upon his son, and he points 219 00:11:10,970 --> 00:11:13,850 S1: out what it says in second Corinthians 521 for our 220 00:11:13,850 --> 00:11:16,930 S1: sake he made him Jesus to be sin who knew 221 00:11:16,929 --> 00:11:20,450 S1: no sin, so that in him we might become the 222 00:11:20,450 --> 00:11:23,770 S1: righteousness of God. So I loved what you just said, Sam, 223 00:11:23,809 --> 00:11:25,890 S1: because I think it's an astute observation, and I think 224 00:11:25,890 --> 00:11:28,570 S1: it's also a sad commentary on where we are not 225 00:11:28,570 --> 00:11:31,449 S1: just culturally, but in the church capital C, and that 226 00:11:31,450 --> 00:11:34,290 S1: is this idea of the concept of sin. I think 227 00:11:34,290 --> 00:11:36,290 S1: I'm wondering, I don't know, but I think these are 228 00:11:36,290 --> 00:11:40,650 S1: questions worth asking. If we have this idea we're timid 229 00:11:40,650 --> 00:11:44,939 S1: about sin because we don't understand it's offense to God. 230 00:11:44,940 --> 00:11:47,900 S1: So we quote this verse about our righteousness is as 231 00:11:47,900 --> 00:11:50,100 S1: filthy rags. And that's an interesting word study in and 232 00:11:50,140 --> 00:11:53,540 S1: of itself. But I'm wondering, in a post-modern sensate world 233 00:11:53,540 --> 00:11:56,420 S1: where the lines of distinction between good and evil are 234 00:11:56,460 --> 00:11:59,660 S1: more blurred than they've ever been, at least in my lifetime, 235 00:11:59,860 --> 00:12:03,459 S1: that we don't understand the repugnant nature of sin to 236 00:12:03,500 --> 00:12:05,179 S1: a holy God. Talk to me about that. 237 00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:09,220 S6: Well, that's so true, Janet. Um, I do think that 238 00:12:09,220 --> 00:12:13,060 S6: we have been desensitized to sin. That the things that 239 00:12:13,059 --> 00:12:16,620 S6: used to make us blush, uh, now we take pride in. 240 00:12:16,660 --> 00:12:20,620 S6: We form parades to celebrate them. And I think the 241 00:12:20,620 --> 00:12:23,500 S6: only way that we can explain that it's. Well, it's 242 00:12:23,500 --> 00:12:25,180 S6: not the only way. The primary way. I'll get to 243 00:12:25,179 --> 00:12:27,860 S6: it in a moment. But, for example, um, we have 244 00:12:27,860 --> 00:12:31,140 S6: now come to a place in our kind of postmodern culture. 245 00:12:31,179 --> 00:12:34,420 S6: Karl Truman wrote an excellent book about this, uh, to 246 00:12:34,420 --> 00:12:39,660 S6: the place where all so-called ethical decisions are little more 247 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:45,220 S6: than personal preferences. You don't like abortion? Don't have one. 248 00:12:45,860 --> 00:12:49,620 S6: You don't like murder, don't kill anybody. That really the 249 00:12:49,620 --> 00:12:51,620 S6: only way we can say anything is good or bad. 250 00:12:51,620 --> 00:12:53,620 S6: What we really mean is I don't like it. I 251 00:12:53,620 --> 00:12:57,780 S6: prefer its opposite. And so we've redefined the source of 252 00:12:57,780 --> 00:13:02,340 S6: morality away from God and away from his transcendent rule 253 00:13:02,540 --> 00:13:04,860 S6: and will. And we've placed it in the human heart. 254 00:13:04,860 --> 00:13:08,220 S6: And it's basically whatever makes you feel good, whatever builds 255 00:13:08,220 --> 00:13:11,979 S6: your self-esteem, whatever gives you a personal sense of identity, 256 00:13:12,020 --> 00:13:15,300 S6: whatever gives you a feel for you're going to make a, 257 00:13:16,059 --> 00:13:19,660 S6: you know, a significant mark in this world that becomes 258 00:13:19,660 --> 00:13:22,660 S6: the deciding factor on what is good and evil. But 259 00:13:22,660 --> 00:13:25,300 S6: I think more so than anything else, we really don't 260 00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:29,140 S6: have a biblical concept of who God is. I think 261 00:13:29,140 --> 00:13:31,420 S6: one of the reasons for this, I think we've talked 262 00:13:31,420 --> 00:13:33,900 S6: a little bit about this before, is there are some 263 00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:38,740 S6: professing Christians, and I emphasize the word professing there, um, 264 00:13:38,860 --> 00:13:41,350 S6: who want to pit the God of the Old Testament 265 00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:43,270 S6: against the God of the New Testament. God of the 266 00:13:43,270 --> 00:13:47,550 S6: Old Testament is a bully. He's mean. He's hateful. He's arrogant. 267 00:13:47,550 --> 00:13:50,910 S6: He demands blood. He kills people that don't like him, 268 00:13:50,910 --> 00:13:53,550 S6: blah blah blah. God, the New Testament. Oh, he's loving 269 00:13:53,550 --> 00:13:58,030 S6: and kind and freely forgives. And it would never do 270 00:13:58,030 --> 00:13:59,390 S6: any of the things that the God of the Old 271 00:13:59,390 --> 00:14:03,670 S6: Testament did. And this, this division between the two, it's 272 00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:06,470 S6: really the kind of the resurrection of an old heresy 273 00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:10,110 S6: called Marcionism. Marcion was a man in the second century 274 00:14:10,110 --> 00:14:15,230 S6: who basically said, we can't. We can't believe the Old Testament. 275 00:14:15,230 --> 00:14:17,870 S6: We can only believe the the Jesus of the New Testament. 276 00:14:17,870 --> 00:14:20,470 S6: Even then, he wouldn't accept everything in the New Testament. 277 00:14:20,510 --> 00:14:23,710 S6: Anything that talked about wrath or anger or sin he 278 00:14:23,710 --> 00:14:26,470 S6: would kind of dismiss. So I do think it all 279 00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:30,510 S6: gets back to this misconception of who God is. You know, 280 00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:33,670 S6: you open with Romans five. I want to continue reading 281 00:14:33,670 --> 00:14:36,830 S6: where you left off. You know where he says, God 282 00:14:36,830 --> 00:14:39,680 S6: shows his love for us and while we were still sinners, 283 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,760 S6: Christ died for us. And then he says, since therefore 284 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,760 S6: we have now been justified by his blood, much more 285 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,080 S6: shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 286 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,720 S6: So it's that's our greatest threat is the justice and 287 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,240 S6: wrath of God. God is not this, this kind of 288 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,760 S6: being who can kind of divest himself of his essential 289 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,440 S6: character and say, well, you know, I kind of got 290 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,360 S6: up this morning. I was a little bit cranky, so 291 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,040 S6: I'll be wrathful. And tomorrow. No, I'm feeling compassionate and 292 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,720 S6: kind today, so I'll be forgiving. Uh, we can't mess 293 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,040 S6: with God's character. He's told us what he is like, 294 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,560 S6: and we must acknowledge it. And then one more thing 295 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,520 S6: I want to point out about that passage you read. Uh, 296 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,880 S6: he doesn't just say this. He died for us while 297 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,800 S6: we were still sinners. But then he says in verse ten, 298 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,680 S6: for while we are enemies, he reconciled us to God. 299 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,880 S6: So we're not just sinful. We're not just ungodly. We 300 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,970 S6: are at enmity with God. We simply don't like him. 301 00:15:38,970 --> 00:15:42,210 S6: We don't like his will and ways. I'm. I'm preaching 302 00:15:42,210 --> 00:15:45,010 S6: in Ephesians four, uh, very soon at our church here 303 00:15:45,010 --> 00:15:48,250 S6: in Oklahoma City. And I was working today with, um, 304 00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:51,530 S6: Ephesians four. It's the most graphic portrayal of human sin 305 00:15:51,530 --> 00:15:54,570 S6: I've ever seen in in the Bible. And he talks 306 00:15:54,570 --> 00:15:59,090 S6: about the unbelieving mind is futile. It's darkened. They're alienated 307 00:15:59,090 --> 00:16:01,610 S6: from God because of the ignorance that are in them 308 00:16:01,810 --> 00:16:07,170 S6: due to their hardness of heart. That's the issue. People's 309 00:16:07,170 --> 00:16:10,930 S6: hearts have become hardened. They are insensitive to the revelation 310 00:16:10,930 --> 00:16:13,730 S6: of God. They don't want him in their lives because 311 00:16:13,730 --> 00:16:16,570 S6: the minute they acknowledge that he exists, they suddenly become 312 00:16:16,570 --> 00:16:18,970 S6: accountable to him. And that means they have to put 313 00:16:18,970 --> 00:16:21,970 S6: their lifestyle and their decisions, you know, on the table 314 00:16:21,970 --> 00:16:24,290 S6: and say, all right, Lord, which of these do you 315 00:16:24,290 --> 00:16:27,090 S6: approve of and which do you disapprove of? And then 316 00:16:27,090 --> 00:16:31,570 S6: adjust our lifestyle accordingly. People don't like that. People like 317 00:16:31,570 --> 00:16:34,930 S6: their sin more than they like God. It just it comes. 318 00:16:35,020 --> 00:16:38,140 S6: I know that sounds simplistic, but that's basically what it is. 319 00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:40,780 S1: Yes. And isn't it interesting? What a paradox because you 320 00:16:40,780 --> 00:16:42,780 S1: talk about the hardness of the heart and yet the 321 00:16:42,780 --> 00:16:46,140 S1: softness of our approach towards sin. That's a paradox, not 322 00:16:46,140 --> 00:16:48,740 S1: to be ignored, I think. And it's problematic. So I 323 00:16:48,780 --> 00:16:52,340 S1: love what you said about recognizing that we're enemies of God. 324 00:16:52,340 --> 00:16:54,340 S1: I want to pick it up exactly at that point. 325 00:16:54,460 --> 00:16:57,220 S1: So if this were a bicycle wheel, the center of 326 00:16:57,220 --> 00:16:59,020 S1: this wheel is the character of God and the nature 327 00:16:59,020 --> 00:17:00,860 S1: of sin. And all the questions I'm asking sort of 328 00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:02,940 S1: are spokes that come out from that. So I want 329 00:17:02,980 --> 00:17:05,179 S1: to talk about this idea of the God of the 330 00:17:05,180 --> 00:17:07,899 S1: Old Testament versus the Jesus we read about in the 331 00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:10,940 S1: New Testament, because, you know, as there are people advocating 332 00:17:10,940 --> 00:17:13,699 S1: the disconnection and as you say, this is a heresy 333 00:17:13,700 --> 00:17:16,100 S1: that goes back to the second century. You can't do it. 334 00:17:16,100 --> 00:17:19,060 S1: Jesus shows up in Genesis and he's there through every 335 00:17:19,060 --> 00:17:21,780 S1: single book of the Bible, all 66 of them, until 336 00:17:21,780 --> 00:17:23,859 S1: we get to revelation. So let me ask about the 337 00:17:23,859 --> 00:17:27,020 S1: incarnation based on what you just said. Doctor Sam Storms 338 00:17:27,020 --> 00:17:29,900 S1: is with us. We're talking about what Jesus did for 339 00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:34,020 S1: us to satisfy the wrath of God. Back after this. 340 00:17:46,619 --> 00:17:51,580 S1: It's always a privilege to spend time with Doctor Sam Storms. Author, teacher, pastor, writer. 341 00:17:51,580 --> 00:17:55,900 S1: Just excellent material. So our conversation really emanates out of 342 00:17:55,900 --> 00:17:58,540 S1: multiple articles that Doctor Storms has written, as well as 343 00:17:58,540 --> 00:18:00,500 S1: a book he wrote, called A Dozen Things God Did 344 00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:03,139 S1: With Your Sin and Three Things He'll Never Do. And 345 00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:05,619 S1: of course, point number one. And you know, Sam, I 346 00:18:05,619 --> 00:18:07,740 S1: don't think we've ever gotten to the other 11. We've 347 00:18:07,740 --> 00:18:09,260 S1: stayed on this one for so long, but I think 348 00:18:09,260 --> 00:18:12,540 S1: it's worth talking about. You point out he laid our 349 00:18:12,540 --> 00:18:17,340 S1: sins upon his son, substitutionary atonement. In other words, Jesus 350 00:18:17,340 --> 00:18:20,140 S1: steps in for us. We are the ones that should 351 00:18:20,140 --> 00:18:23,780 S1: be paying the price, but he is the substitution. He 352 00:18:23,780 --> 00:18:26,820 S1: becomes that that, uh, unblemished Lamb of God. As I 353 00:18:26,820 --> 00:18:28,700 S1: said earlier, who takes away the sins of the world? 354 00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:30,740 S1: The atonement is the price. The price that has to 355 00:18:30,740 --> 00:18:33,030 S1: be paid. The wages of sin is death, but the 356 00:18:33,030 --> 00:18:35,550 S1: gift of God is eternal life. So Jesus steps in 357 00:18:35,550 --> 00:18:38,190 S1: and he takes care of that chasm between God and man, 358 00:18:38,430 --> 00:18:41,750 S1: that sin. We are separated from God in our sins, 359 00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:44,550 S1: but because of what Christ did, the completed work of Calvary, 360 00:18:44,590 --> 00:18:48,470 S1: we're able to have that personal relationship with him, with 361 00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:51,830 S1: the son, to the father. So I was thinking about 362 00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:55,150 S1: what you were saying before, about the incarnation and not 363 00:18:55,150 --> 00:18:57,869 S1: understanding the character of God. So as I said earlier, 364 00:18:57,869 --> 00:19:00,430 S1: and it's indisputable in studying the word that from Genesis 365 00:19:00,470 --> 00:19:02,710 S1: to Revelation there is Jesus all the way through, from 366 00:19:02,710 --> 00:19:05,830 S1: beginning to end. So you you just logically cannot disconnect, 367 00:19:05,830 --> 00:19:08,790 S1: especially when Jesus quotes the Old Testament all the time 368 00:19:08,790 --> 00:19:10,870 S1: when he becomes the fulfillment of the law, the hearkening 369 00:19:10,869 --> 00:19:13,390 S1: back constantly. The one is a hand in a glove 370 00:19:13,390 --> 00:19:15,510 S1: to the other. You cannot separate them. But it does 371 00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:18,350 S1: raise an interesting question. So if God chooses to become 372 00:19:18,350 --> 00:19:21,590 S1: man to come among us, and we read who he is, 373 00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:24,950 S1: that he knows us, he's acquainted with all of our sorrows. 374 00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:28,909 S1: By his stripes we are healed. He knows every temptation 375 00:19:28,910 --> 00:19:32,480 S1: that we're dealing with in our lives. Why in some 376 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,840 S1: of those characteristics that others might point to and say 377 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,520 S1: that's a negative. Uncomfortable for me. Characteristic of God, his wrath, 378 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,760 S1: his judgment, his destruction. Why do we not then see 379 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,560 S1: that manifested in the person of Jesus in the New Testament? 380 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,280 S1: I mean, about as bad as it gets for some 381 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,639 S1: people is when he flips the tables. Although you can 382 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,320 S1: go through Scripture and read a lot of things he 383 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,040 S1: says to people that will knock them off their feet 384 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,880 S1: if you're paying attention. But we don't see that same 385 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,919 S1: kind of wrath that people subscribe to. This big spirit 386 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,000 S1: in the sky with a fluffy beard that plays whack 387 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,240 S1: a mole with human beings. So tell me why. 388 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:10,720 S6: I'm sorry. I love the way you put that, Janet. Oh, wow. Uh, 389 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,399 S6: the fact of the matter is, Jesus speaks as much 390 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,439 S6: of God's anger at sin, judgment, and even the doctrine 391 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,600 S6: of hell more so than Paul, Peter and Luke and John. 392 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,000 S6: He is constantly talking about the reality of of sin. Um, 393 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,560 S6: you know, he says this is the reason why the 394 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,290 S6: Son of Man appeared that he might take, that he 395 00:20:31,290 --> 00:20:35,850 S6: might suffer in our place. So again, to give his 396 00:20:35,850 --> 00:20:40,130 S6: life a ransom for many, he says. So the fact is, 397 00:20:40,130 --> 00:20:42,810 S6: when you read the New Testament, the idea that somehow 398 00:20:42,810 --> 00:20:45,970 S6: it's inconsistent with the old, that it gives us a 399 00:20:45,970 --> 00:20:49,170 S6: different portrayal of God. No. The Old Testament is full 400 00:20:49,170 --> 00:20:52,330 S6: of God's grace. I mean, people never stop to ask 401 00:20:52,330 --> 00:20:57,490 S6: the question what? When God required the sacrificial sacrificial system 402 00:20:57,490 --> 00:21:00,770 S6: and the blood of the lamb being shed? What was that? 403 00:21:00,810 --> 00:21:03,690 S6: Was that an expression of his wrath or his grace 404 00:21:03,690 --> 00:21:07,490 S6: and love? The answer is yes. Of course it is both. 405 00:21:07,810 --> 00:21:09,810 S6: And then when we read in the New Testament, especially 406 00:21:09,810 --> 00:21:14,010 S6: the Book of Revelation, my goodness, it's everywhere there. Um, 407 00:21:14,650 --> 00:21:17,610 S6: the judgment that has finally been poured out on a 408 00:21:17,650 --> 00:21:23,290 S6: on a recalcitrant and unbelieving and idolatrous people. Uh, and again, 409 00:21:23,290 --> 00:21:25,770 S6: I was like I said, I was working in Ephesians 410 00:21:25,770 --> 00:21:28,980 S6: four earlier today, and I came to chapter five where 411 00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:33,780 S6: Paul's talking about, you know, uh, avoiding this kind of lifestyle, 412 00:21:33,780 --> 00:21:38,100 S6: these sins that, that entangle us. And he says, he says, 413 00:21:38,140 --> 00:21:41,980 S6: let no one deceive you with empty words. For because 414 00:21:41,980 --> 00:21:45,340 S6: of these things, the wrath of God comes upon the 415 00:21:45,340 --> 00:21:51,020 S6: sons of disobedience. Wow, there it is. Don't be deceived. 416 00:21:51,020 --> 00:21:54,540 S6: Paul's saying, because of these sins, the wrath of God comes. 417 00:21:54,540 --> 00:21:57,300 S6: But of course, the great news is, as we are 418 00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:00,780 S6: told elsewhere in Ephesians and elsewhere in first Peter, it 419 00:22:00,780 --> 00:22:04,540 S6: is because Jesus endured and suffered that wrath in our stead, 420 00:22:04,540 --> 00:22:08,060 S6: and then that glorious word that people often mispronounce the 421 00:22:08,060 --> 00:22:13,060 S6: propitiation for our sins. He satisfied the demands of righteous 422 00:22:13,420 --> 00:22:17,100 S6: demands of God's righteous and judicial character. Uh, if people 423 00:22:17,100 --> 00:22:20,180 S6: want to know what substitutionary atonement is, if they just want, 424 00:22:20,260 --> 00:22:22,540 S6: you know, a one verse that can kind of just 425 00:22:22,540 --> 00:22:25,379 S6: summarize it for them, I would always send them to 426 00:22:25,420 --> 00:22:31,379 S6: first Peter 318 that's where Peter said, for the for 427 00:22:31,380 --> 00:22:36,020 S6: the righteous suffered once for all the just for the unjust. 428 00:22:36,060 --> 00:22:40,060 S6: It was, he said, it was concerning sin. He suffered 429 00:22:40,180 --> 00:22:44,020 S6: for the unjust that we might be brought to God. 430 00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:47,660 S6: We can't come to God unless our hatred of him, 431 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:51,860 S6: our rebellion against him, or disdain for him. Our idolatrous 432 00:22:51,859 --> 00:22:54,580 S6: fascination with something else that we think is more worthy. 433 00:22:54,780 --> 00:22:57,460 S6: Unless that is dealt with, we cannot come to God. 434 00:22:57,780 --> 00:23:01,660 S6: And Peter is saying, here's how it happens. Jesus suffered 435 00:23:01,660 --> 00:23:05,940 S6: once for the unjust. He's took their place. He endured 436 00:23:05,940 --> 00:23:09,860 S6: their sin. That's what substitutionary atonement is all about. And 437 00:23:09,859 --> 00:23:11,460 S6: it's everywhere in the New Testament. 438 00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:15,740 S1: Yeah. Wow. Does it help us to understand the nature 439 00:23:15,740 --> 00:23:18,260 S1: of a holy God when even on the cross, His 440 00:23:18,260 --> 00:23:21,500 S1: son cries out, father, father, why have you forsaken me? Now, 441 00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:24,379 S1: this is one of those metaphysical things where you just 442 00:23:24,380 --> 00:23:26,630 S1: have to take it and understand that you've got a 443 00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:29,189 S1: miniature mortal's mind, and you can't possibly take in all 444 00:23:29,230 --> 00:23:31,990 S1: of the knowledge of the supernatural. But there's this moment, 445 00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:34,870 S1: this schism between God the Father and Jesus the Son, 446 00:23:34,869 --> 00:23:40,230 S1: where there's a separation that gives me an insight into the, the, 447 00:23:40,430 --> 00:23:43,430 S1: the degradation of sin versus the holiness of God. Talk 448 00:23:43,430 --> 00:23:44,350 S1: to me about that. 449 00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:48,909 S6: Yeah. In fact, I was just preaching on Sunday at 450 00:23:48,910 --> 00:23:52,830 S6: a church in South Carolina, and I referred to that statement. 451 00:23:52,830 --> 00:23:55,590 S6: I believe it's in Hebrews 13 where where the author 452 00:23:55,590 --> 00:23:58,909 S6: says he will never leave you nor forsake you. And 453 00:23:58,910 --> 00:24:01,470 S6: I said, people, do you know why that's true? It's 454 00:24:01,470 --> 00:24:04,870 S6: because he left and forsook his son. Jesus endured the 455 00:24:04,910 --> 00:24:08,630 S6: God forsakenness that we should have suffered while he was 456 00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:09,550 S6: on the cross. 457 00:24:09,910 --> 00:24:10,310 S5: Wow. 458 00:24:10,550 --> 00:24:13,270 S1: Wow. That puts that into a whole new perspective. This 459 00:24:13,270 --> 00:24:15,590 S1: hour is going far too quickly. But then, doesn't that 460 00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:18,510 S1: always happen with Doctor Sam Storms? So let me if 461 00:24:18,510 --> 00:24:20,910 S1: I can. And like I said, there are 11 other 462 00:24:20,910 --> 00:24:23,149 S1: things we can talk about what God does with our sin. 463 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,520 S1: But I think this first one, if you don't get this, 464 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,600 S1: the other things, you're just. Well, first of all, it's 465 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,159 S1: basic Christianity. You need to understand this. But out of 466 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,359 S1: this conversation does emanate the idea of God's wrath, and 467 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,920 S1: it opens the door to a conversation about hell. Let's 468 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:56,520 S1: talk about that when we get back. Anyone can read 469 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,480 S1: the news every day, and in the market, we're committed 470 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,880 S1: to telling the news as seen through the lens of Scripture. 471 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,359 S1: As Christians, we must be informed about what's going on 472 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,119 S1: in the world and respond appropriately. When you become a 473 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,800 S1: partial partner, you ensure that we continue here on your station, 474 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,280 S1: equipping the church to discuss current events, using the Bible 475 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,600 S1: as our solid foundation. Why not become a partial partner today? 476 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,160 S1: Call 877. 58 or go online to in the market 477 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,250 S1: with Janet Parshall. We are spending the time and it's 478 00:25:23,250 --> 00:25:26,330 S1: always rich time with Doctor Sam Storms. He has spent 479 00:25:26,330 --> 00:25:29,209 S1: decades in ministry as a pastor and a professor. He 480 00:25:29,210 --> 00:25:32,450 S1: was a visiting associate prof of theology at Wheaton College. 481 00:25:32,650 --> 00:25:34,609 S1: He serves as a member of the Council of the 482 00:25:34,650 --> 00:25:38,810 S1: Gospel Coalition, is the past president of the Evangelical Theological Society, 483 00:25:39,130 --> 00:25:41,410 S1: and he has now founded and serves as the Executive 484 00:25:41,410 --> 00:25:46,250 S1: Director for Convergence Church Network. Wonderful author. Tons of books. 485 00:25:46,490 --> 00:25:48,689 S1: I've got his website linked on mine. You can remember it. 486 00:25:48,690 --> 00:25:52,410 S1: It's just his name, Sam Storms. Sam storms.org, but our 487 00:25:52,410 --> 00:25:55,609 S1: conversation is emanating out of one of his many books. 488 00:25:55,609 --> 00:25:57,530 S1: This is an outstanding one because he knows that so 489 00:25:57,530 --> 00:26:00,450 S1: many people struggle with their guilt and their sin, and 490 00:26:00,450 --> 00:26:02,250 S1: they think that somehow that God's going to give you 491 00:26:02,250 --> 00:26:04,409 S1: an eternal time out or you're going to have to 492 00:26:04,410 --> 00:26:06,890 S1: go to your room or that's it. I've forgiven you 493 00:26:06,890 --> 00:26:09,090 S1: enough times for that problem. You can't get over it. 494 00:26:09,090 --> 00:26:11,490 S1: I'm over you. And that's why we need to go 495 00:26:11,490 --> 00:26:14,129 S1: back to the basics. When all else fails, read the instructions. 496 00:26:14,130 --> 00:26:15,889 S1: They're found in the Word of God. So he wrote 497 00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:18,170 S1: a fabulous book called A Dozen Things God Did with 498 00:26:18,170 --> 00:26:21,060 S1: Your Sin, and three Things He'll Never Do And point one, 499 00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:23,500 S1: which was the beginning of this conversation, but from which 500 00:26:23,540 --> 00:26:26,619 S1: emanate a whole lot of other very important theological ideas. 501 00:26:26,820 --> 00:26:30,380 S1: Is this idea of substitutionary atonement that God pays the 502 00:26:30,380 --> 00:26:34,260 S1: price for sin through his Son, Jesus, who becomes the 503 00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:37,900 S1: substitutionary atonement for our sins? We're the ones who should 504 00:26:37,940 --> 00:26:39,620 S1: have paid the price, and there was a price that 505 00:26:39,619 --> 00:26:43,180 S1: had to be paid. Jesus pays it, pays it for us. 506 00:26:43,380 --> 00:26:46,979 S1: It's stunning. It's overwhelming. It's John 316 in a nutshell, 507 00:26:47,020 --> 00:26:50,060 S1: God so loved the world that he gave his only son, 508 00:26:50,060 --> 00:26:52,540 S1: that whoever believes in him will not perish but have 509 00:26:52,540 --> 00:26:56,260 S1: everlasting life. So you made a very astute observation earlier, Sam, 510 00:26:56,260 --> 00:26:59,500 S1: that we've got this kind of squishy attitude toward who 511 00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:02,940 S1: God is and an even squishier attitude towards sin. And 512 00:27:02,940 --> 00:27:06,139 S1: out of that emanates this idea of substitutionary atonement. Oh 513 00:27:06,180 --> 00:27:07,980 S1: that's icky. I don't like it. I don't want to 514 00:27:07,980 --> 00:27:10,820 S1: deal with the wrath of God. Where when that song 515 00:27:10,820 --> 00:27:13,100 S1: came out in Christ alone, there was one denomination who 516 00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:15,300 S1: stripped it from its hymnal because they said, no, no, 517 00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:17,700 S1: we don't want to sing about the wrath of God. Well, 518 00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:20,030 S1: that's up to you. But you can't deny that's part 519 00:27:20,030 --> 00:27:23,510 S1: of God's nature that his wrath had to be satisfied. 520 00:27:23,710 --> 00:27:25,910 S1: So it begs the question, and I think it follows 521 00:27:25,910 --> 00:27:28,150 S1: logically here, that if you get a squishy idea of 522 00:27:28,150 --> 00:27:30,629 S1: sin and you get a squishy idea of God, and 523 00:27:30,630 --> 00:27:33,230 S1: you're letting the world teach you theology, that now we 524 00:27:33,230 --> 00:27:36,590 S1: get squishy ideas about hell, and you've written and you've 525 00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:38,710 S1: talked about this, and in one of your articles you 526 00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:40,590 S1: said right up front, you don't like to preach on 527 00:27:40,590 --> 00:27:44,430 S1: this text, and you were referring to revelation 14 six 528 00:27:44,470 --> 00:27:46,710 S1: through 13, and you said it's not because you don't 529 00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:49,790 S1: believe it, but because far more poignantly, you do believe 530 00:27:49,790 --> 00:27:52,230 S1: it because there is a place called hell and that 531 00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:55,550 S1: people are going there. Again, we've drifted on this. If 532 00:27:55,550 --> 00:27:58,109 S1: we don't have our anchor firmly planted, we start to 533 00:27:58,150 --> 00:28:00,030 S1: drift and all of a sudden now we've got drifting 534 00:28:00,030 --> 00:28:03,310 S1: ideas about hell like universalism, which in a nutshell says 535 00:28:03,550 --> 00:28:05,550 S1: it's a good God. Everybody ends up in heaven anyway. 536 00:28:05,550 --> 00:28:09,870 S1: Or annihilation, which means there is no eternal conscience, painful 537 00:28:09,869 --> 00:28:12,909 S1: separation from God. You are annihilated, wiped out. That's the 538 00:28:12,910 --> 00:28:16,429 S1: end of the discussion. Interesting conversation. But when all else fails, 539 00:28:16,430 --> 00:28:18,590 S1: I want the plumb line. Thank you, Book of Amos 540 00:28:18,590 --> 00:28:20,550 S1: and D.L. Moody for referring to the Word of God 541 00:28:20,590 --> 00:28:22,590 S1: as such. I want the plumb line of the Word 542 00:28:22,590 --> 00:28:24,550 S1: of God. What does the Bible tell us about hell? 543 00:28:26,390 --> 00:28:29,909 S6: Wow. I don't know that I need to say any more. Janet, 544 00:28:29,950 --> 00:28:34,669 S6: you have summed it up well. Um, yeah, it reminds me, 545 00:28:34,670 --> 00:28:36,270 S6: I don't I don't think I share this story in 546 00:28:36,270 --> 00:28:38,110 S6: my book, but I had a friend who was in 547 00:28:38,110 --> 00:28:40,750 S6: real estate and also in ministry part time in Dallas, 548 00:28:41,230 --> 00:28:43,790 S6: and he was a day in Dallas in August. It 549 00:28:43,790 --> 00:28:47,630 S6: was probably on 100, 105 outside and pretty hot inside. 550 00:28:48,070 --> 00:28:50,470 S6: And he was on the elevator going up to his office, 551 00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:52,630 S6: and two men ran in and got in the elevator, 552 00:28:52,630 --> 00:28:55,790 S6: and they were obviously sweating. They'd been outside jogging and 553 00:28:55,790 --> 00:28:58,270 S6: one man said, man, it is as hot as hell 554 00:28:58,310 --> 00:29:03,070 S6: out there. And my friend immediately said, no, sir, it's not. 555 00:29:04,030 --> 00:29:07,310 S6: You can well imagine these guys kind of froze in 556 00:29:07,310 --> 00:29:10,990 S6: their position. They, uh. What do you mean by that? 557 00:29:10,990 --> 00:29:14,230 S6: And opened the door to him sharing the gospel. Um, so, yeah, 558 00:29:14,270 --> 00:29:17,520 S6: hell is a reality. This is not something, you know, 559 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,840 S6: that people say, well, why can't God just put delete 560 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,560 S6: in his character and just wrath and justice are there, 561 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,840 S6: but just push delete? I mean, we do that all 562 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,440 S6: the time, don't we? We make up our minds to 563 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,440 S6: push delete on things that have been done to us. 564 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,400 S6: Sins been committed against us, you know, somebody breaking a confidence, 565 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,960 S6: somebody gossiping or slandering us. And we push delete. Why 566 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,400 S6: can't God? And the answer is because we're not God. 567 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,960 S6: We're not holy. We're not infinitely righteous and pure, and 568 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,600 S6: we don't have a feature or characteristic in our souls. 569 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,960 S6: That's called retributive justice. God does. And he couldn't deny 570 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,600 S6: himself by simply pushing delete. His righteous character demands that 571 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:04,160 S6: it be satisfied. But with God's righteous character comes God's unbelievable, um, 572 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,960 S6: unimpeachable love and grace, where he says, I cannot dismiss 573 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,280 S6: this out of hand. I can't just say, hey, let 574 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,130 S6: bygones be bygones. But here's what I'm going to do 575 00:30:15,130 --> 00:30:17,490 S6: for you. I'm going to send my only son, and 576 00:30:17,490 --> 00:30:21,810 S6: he's willingly, lovingly, happily coming. He is giving his life freely. 577 00:30:21,810 --> 00:30:24,570 S6: Nobody's forcing it from him. This is not, you know, 578 00:30:24,610 --> 00:30:27,890 S6: cosmic child abuse, as some people say. But he wanted 579 00:30:27,890 --> 00:30:31,050 S6: to do this. He says in John ten. Nobody takes 580 00:30:31,050 --> 00:30:32,730 S6: my life from me. I offer it up on my 581 00:30:32,730 --> 00:30:36,650 S6: own authority. And God the Father says, that's what my 582 00:30:36,650 --> 00:30:39,690 S6: son has decided to do. This is a joint expression 583 00:30:39,890 --> 00:30:43,690 S6: of both wrath and love and grace. So that's what 584 00:30:43,690 --> 00:30:46,890 S6: we need to get our minds around. So yeah, the 585 00:30:47,730 --> 00:30:50,490 S6: let's be honest, and I don't want anybody to draw 586 00:30:50,490 --> 00:30:52,850 S6: the wrong conclusion from the few comments we'll make in 587 00:30:52,850 --> 00:30:59,610 S6: our time left in talking about hell. This is a sobering, uh, sad, 588 00:30:59,650 --> 00:31:02,650 S6: sad thing to think about, that there are people that 589 00:31:02,650 --> 00:31:05,650 S6: we know and love that will be in hell for eternity. 590 00:31:06,330 --> 00:31:11,850 S6: That thought has been is so repugnant to some, so 591 00:31:11,890 --> 00:31:15,700 S6: violates their sense of moral conscience that they have come 592 00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:19,060 S6: up with this idea of annihilationism. Now, let's be clear 593 00:31:19,060 --> 00:31:22,980 S6: about what that is and isn't. Most annihilationist would say 594 00:31:23,340 --> 00:31:26,060 S6: that everybody who is an unbeliever in Jesus, those who 595 00:31:26,060 --> 00:31:28,820 S6: have rejected the gospel, will suffer the judgment and the 596 00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:31,380 S6: punishment of God. It will be in proportion to the 597 00:31:31,380 --> 00:31:34,020 S6: revelation they've had and the nature and the degree of 598 00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:38,020 S6: their sin. But after they have suffered that in proportion 599 00:31:38,020 --> 00:31:40,860 S6: to what they've done, they will simply cease to exist, 600 00:31:40,860 --> 00:31:45,820 S6: they will be annihilated. Their souls will simply no longer be. 601 00:31:47,700 --> 00:31:50,940 S6: Excuse me. So they don't they don't deny that hell exists. 602 00:31:50,940 --> 00:31:55,900 S6: They just simply say it's temporary. And it's the kind 603 00:31:55,940 --> 00:31:59,060 S6: of resolves in their own hearts. This idea of, well, yes, 604 00:31:59,060 --> 00:32:01,980 S6: God is just. But he's also gracious. That's why this 605 00:32:01,980 --> 00:32:05,020 S6: is something that won't last forever. My response? You know, 606 00:32:05,060 --> 00:32:07,340 S6: there's so many things to respond to that. First of all, 607 00:32:07,700 --> 00:32:09,860 S6: it's a question of what does the Bible say? And 608 00:32:09,860 --> 00:32:12,510 S6: if people think we're just bluffing, Janet. They should open 609 00:32:12,510 --> 00:32:15,470 S6: their Bibles to Revelation 14. You mentioned a moment ago, 610 00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:21,950 S6: verses nine through 11, revelation 14 nine through 11. I wrote, 611 00:32:21,950 --> 00:32:24,470 S6: I took a course in the Greek exegesis of revelation 612 00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:26,390 S6: when I was in seminary, and we each had to 613 00:32:26,390 --> 00:32:28,990 S6: pick a paragraph to write our term paper on. That's 614 00:32:28,990 --> 00:32:32,190 S6: the one I wrote on an entire term paper. It 615 00:32:32,190 --> 00:32:36,830 S6: is so graphic, so unescapable. Um, it's I didn't take 616 00:32:36,830 --> 00:32:39,630 S6: any delight in writing it, other than it was not 617 00:32:39,630 --> 00:32:42,390 S6: a joyful thing to think about. But here's the point 618 00:32:42,390 --> 00:32:47,750 S6: I want people to think about. Eternal conscious punishment makes 619 00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:52,230 S6: more sense when we think about eternal conscious sinning. So 620 00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:55,870 S6: we have this idea, mistaken idea that when people enter 621 00:32:55,870 --> 00:33:00,110 S6: into hell separation from God, they immediately cease sinning, that 622 00:33:00,110 --> 00:33:03,150 S6: maybe their natures are transformed and they're constantly crying out 623 00:33:03,150 --> 00:33:07,190 S6: to God for release and forgiveness. That's not the portrayal 624 00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:09,670 S6: we have in the Bible. I think that we can. 625 00:33:09,710 --> 00:33:12,710 S6: And again, there's no one text that explicitly says this, 626 00:33:12,950 --> 00:33:15,070 S6: but you kind of surmise it from a variety of 627 00:33:15,070 --> 00:33:20,870 S6: statements that if anything, sin becomes more prevalent, their hearts 628 00:33:20,870 --> 00:33:24,550 S6: become even harder. They are so defiant, and they hate 629 00:33:24,550 --> 00:33:28,910 S6: God so deeply that they never cease to sin. And 630 00:33:28,910 --> 00:33:32,390 S6: that's why they never cease to be punished. So that's 631 00:33:32,390 --> 00:33:35,470 S6: one thing that has helped me considerably. Jonathan Edwards taught 632 00:33:35,470 --> 00:33:38,670 S6: this Da. Carson talked about it in his book, The 633 00:33:38,670 --> 00:33:41,990 S6: Gagging of God. So there are a lot of responses 634 00:33:41,990 --> 00:33:47,310 S6: to the Annihilationist position now. Honestly, it has appealed to it. 635 00:33:47,350 --> 00:33:50,910 S6: I mean, I remember John Stott before he passed away, 636 00:33:50,910 --> 00:33:55,430 S6: he abandoned eternal conscious punishment. He embraced Annihilationism and he said, 637 00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:58,790 S6: my conscience simply can't live with the idea of people 638 00:33:58,790 --> 00:34:02,990 S6: suffering forever and ever. I understand that. I don't easily 639 00:34:02,990 --> 00:34:07,310 S6: dismiss that. But my conscience is not the the ultimate 640 00:34:07,310 --> 00:34:10,880 S6: standard for truth. What feels good and right to me 641 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,080 S6: is not the way in which I decide what is 642 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,480 S6: right and wrong. The answer to that question is what 643 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,640 S6: does God say? What has he revealed? And even if 644 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,960 S6: we sit here and we could talk about this subject, Janet, 645 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,879 S6: forever and ever, and if we never resolve it, we 646 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,239 S6: never answer all the questions and people call in, they 647 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,480 S6: still have objections. The fact of the matter is, we 648 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,879 S6: have to say, what does the Bible tell us? We 649 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,239 S6: just simply cannot make our decisions based on what we 650 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,400 S6: think is right or wrong, or how we conceive of God. 651 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,560 S6: We have to know what he thinks is right and 652 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,200 S6: wrong and how he portrays himself. 653 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:44,920 S5: Yeah. 654 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,799 S1: Well, again, the culture steps into this conversation at some 655 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,160 S1: point because, you know, the ridicule done by the secular 656 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,920 S1: world on this is someone's going to show up with 657 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,040 S1: sackcloth and ashes and they're going to preach hellfire and damnation. Okay, well, 658 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,799 S1: it's all there. And once upon a time, that was 659 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,800 S1: the way in which preaching was done. And then somewhere 660 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,810 S1: along the line, we've changed our mind and decided that 661 00:35:08,810 --> 00:35:11,569 S1: we're not going to get people to recognize they are 662 00:35:11,570 --> 00:35:13,529 S1: sinners in the hands of an angry God. And so 663 00:35:13,530 --> 00:35:15,649 S1: we're going to take a different approach on this. I 664 00:35:15,650 --> 00:35:17,370 S1: don't think it's an either or. I think it's a 665 00:35:17,370 --> 00:35:20,090 S1: both end. Some people have decided they'll forget the past 666 00:35:20,090 --> 00:35:21,649 S1: part of it, and they'll just do the stuff where 667 00:35:21,650 --> 00:35:24,210 S1: all we do is talk about God's love. Will. God's 668 00:35:24,210 --> 00:35:27,410 S1: love is meaningless without God's law. And if you break 669 00:35:27,410 --> 00:35:31,210 S1: his law by rejecting him and what he's told us 670 00:35:31,210 --> 00:35:33,730 S1: he did for us at Calvary, there is a penalty. 671 00:35:33,770 --> 00:35:36,970 S1: Otherwise it makes a mockery, does it not? Of Calvary, 672 00:35:36,969 --> 00:35:39,210 S1: when you think about it? Because there really is no 673 00:35:39,370 --> 00:35:42,210 S1: division between the saved and the unsaved and everything that 674 00:35:42,210 --> 00:35:44,250 S1: Christ has set us. And by the way, I'm sitting 675 00:35:44,250 --> 00:35:46,730 S1: here ruminating on these three verses that you wrote in 676 00:35:46,730 --> 00:35:50,770 S1: revelation 14. Wow. I mean, there is no rest day 677 00:35:50,770 --> 00:35:52,810 S1: and night for those who worship the beast and the 678 00:35:52,810 --> 00:35:56,490 S1: image on. For everyone who receives the mark of the beast. 679 00:35:56,489 --> 00:35:58,330 S1: And then you talk about the fact that he will 680 00:35:58,330 --> 00:36:00,770 S1: be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the 681 00:36:00,770 --> 00:36:03,210 S1: holy angels and of the lamb and of the smoke 682 00:36:03,210 --> 00:36:06,980 S1: of their torment rises forever and ever. There is no 683 00:36:06,980 --> 00:36:10,420 S1: rest day or night. Now you know. I don't know 684 00:36:10,420 --> 00:36:12,339 S1: how else you take that other than it is an 685 00:36:12,380 --> 00:36:15,060 S1: eternal aspect to this separation from God, which should get 686 00:36:15,060 --> 00:36:18,060 S1: us very serious about sin, very serious about the nature 687 00:36:18,060 --> 00:36:20,580 S1: of God, and very serious about when is the last 688 00:36:20,580 --> 00:36:22,940 S1: time you talked to somebody about Jesus? Because in the end, 689 00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:25,899 S1: the world divides itself into two camps. Those who said 690 00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:28,500 S1: yes and those who said no. We're going to be 691 00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:51,540 S1: back with Doctor Sam Storms right after this. We're spending 692 00:36:51,540 --> 00:36:53,580 S1: the hour with Doctor Sam Storms an hour, by the way, 693 00:36:53,580 --> 00:36:56,140 S1: for the record, has gone far too quickly. So thankful 694 00:36:56,140 --> 00:36:59,180 S1: Doctor Storms comes and visits on a regular basis because 695 00:36:59,180 --> 00:37:02,860 S1: he's such an excellent teacher. So resource for our conversation. 696 00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:05,790 S1: A dozen things God did with your sin and three 697 00:37:05,790 --> 00:37:09,069 S1: things he'll never do. It's on my information page. Read it. 698 00:37:09,070 --> 00:37:11,830 S1: Point number one is this idea that he put our 699 00:37:11,830 --> 00:37:14,710 S1: sins on his son so that the penalty for sin 700 00:37:14,710 --> 00:37:17,910 S1: would be paid. Substitutionary atonement. There are all kinds of 701 00:37:17,910 --> 00:37:20,150 S1: other things in that book we've yet to discuss, but 702 00:37:20,150 --> 00:37:22,150 S1: this was so crucial. You see how it sort of 703 00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:25,670 S1: like Russian nesting dolls gave birth to more ideas that 704 00:37:25,670 --> 00:37:28,910 S1: are intrinsically in this idea of what God did for us. 705 00:37:28,989 --> 00:37:31,470 S1: So you touched on and did a beautiful job, Sam, 706 00:37:31,469 --> 00:37:34,550 S1: of talking about nihilism, which is where your soul just 707 00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:36,630 S1: is done eventually at some point. So you pay the penalty, 708 00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:39,470 S1: you're separated from God, but then you just evaporate. You're gone. 709 00:37:39,750 --> 00:37:42,390 S1: The other one is this universalism, which is an idea 710 00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:45,510 S1: that falls under its own weight. Because if universalism were true, 711 00:37:45,550 --> 00:37:47,870 S1: Calvary was wrong. Talk to me about that. 712 00:37:48,710 --> 00:37:54,310 S6: Yeah. And again, I understand, although I am adamantly opposed 713 00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:57,910 S6: to the idea of universal salvation. I just think it's 714 00:37:57,910 --> 00:38:01,750 S6: totally unbiblical. I know why people go there. Um, people 715 00:38:01,750 --> 00:38:05,469 S6: who have had unbelieving family members and they have died 716 00:38:05,469 --> 00:38:08,669 S6: and they live in agony about their eternal destiny. And 717 00:38:08,670 --> 00:38:13,110 S6: so I can understand the emotional appeal both of annihilationism 718 00:38:13,110 --> 00:38:16,910 S6: and universalism. But as I said before the break, and 719 00:38:16,910 --> 00:38:20,509 S6: I just hope people hear this. My emotions, your emotions, 720 00:38:20,510 --> 00:38:24,150 S6: our emotions, what makes us feel good or bad is 721 00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:28,589 S6: no criterion for truth. It is rather God's Word. And 722 00:38:28,590 --> 00:38:30,629 S6: I want to say one more thing just to kind 723 00:38:30,670 --> 00:38:32,870 S6: of ask a question for people to consider when they 724 00:38:32,870 --> 00:38:38,310 S6: think about, um, the whole issue of penal substitutionary atonement, 725 00:38:38,710 --> 00:38:43,350 S6: if in fact, God could just easily dismiss our sin 726 00:38:43,350 --> 00:38:47,149 S6: and just so pour out his grace and forgiveness that 727 00:38:47,150 --> 00:38:50,910 S6: all wrath and justice would disappear. Why did Jesus have 728 00:38:50,910 --> 00:38:54,230 S6: to die at all? I mean, how do you explain 729 00:38:54,430 --> 00:38:59,549 S6: the horrific torture to which he was subjected? Um, the 730 00:38:59,550 --> 00:39:03,520 S6: fact that he was crucified naked, not with a loincloth 731 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,400 S6: for modesty's sake, as we see in pictures and films, 732 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,720 S6: but naked in the in the public eye, scourged, tortured. 733 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:16,279 S6: Beaten beyond recognition. Why? Why would God the Father have 734 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,440 S6: allowed this if it weren't absolutely necessary to deal with 735 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,480 S6: our sin? Um, you know, I think one of the 736 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,280 S6: most incredible verses in the Bible, because of its unbreakable 737 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:33,000 S6: logic is Romans eight, beginning in verse 32, he who 738 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,360 S6: did not spare his own son like I tend to 739 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,320 S6: spare my kids, my grandkids when they do things. And 740 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,959 S6: I'm feeling awfully nice. But God did not spare Jesus, 741 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,640 S6: but gave him up for us all. How will he 742 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,560 S6: not also with him graciously give us all things? And 743 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,479 S6: then he asked this question, who shall bring a charge 744 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,839 S6: against God's elect? Well, I think well, a whole lot 745 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,200 S6: of people. Satan and his demons charge us. But then 746 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,250 S6: his answer is it is God who justifies, who is 747 00:40:00,250 --> 00:40:02,330 S6: to condemn Christ Jesus is the one who died more 748 00:40:02,330 --> 00:40:04,529 S6: than that, who was raised, who is at the right 749 00:40:04,530 --> 00:40:07,649 S6: hand of God interceding for us. So I would just 750 00:40:07,650 --> 00:40:12,570 S6: challenge people if if you're having a hard time understanding 751 00:40:12,810 --> 00:40:17,129 S6: the whole concept of wrath and forgiveness and love and 752 00:40:17,130 --> 00:40:22,370 S6: grace and all these things, ask yourself, think deeply. If 753 00:40:22,410 --> 00:40:26,410 S6: in fact retributive justice is not a part of God's 754 00:40:26,410 --> 00:40:31,330 S6: character and it wasn't necessary that it be satisfied and propitiated. 755 00:40:31,330 --> 00:40:33,730 S6: Why did Jesus have to die? And if you say, well, 756 00:40:34,290 --> 00:40:35,930 S6: he died because he wanted to give us a good 757 00:40:35,930 --> 00:40:40,089 S6: example of how to serve others well, honestly, I don't 758 00:40:40,090 --> 00:40:42,770 S6: see how that helps me very much. I mean, my 759 00:40:42,770 --> 00:40:45,850 S6: greatest need is to be free of the guilt of 760 00:40:45,850 --> 00:40:48,730 S6: my sin. And if the death of Jesus doesn't deal 761 00:40:48,730 --> 00:40:52,970 S6: with that, it's not loving. It's not kind. So there's 762 00:40:52,969 --> 00:40:56,850 S6: just an inescapable reality in Scripture of why the death 763 00:40:56,850 --> 00:40:59,220 S6: of Jesus was necessary and what it did for us. 764 00:41:00,340 --> 00:41:02,779 S1: You anticipated my question, but I want to make sure 765 00:41:02,780 --> 00:41:05,900 S1: that everyone listening really understands this. So someone listening to 766 00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:08,540 S1: this conversation might go, oh, great. You started out talking 767 00:41:08,540 --> 00:41:11,660 S1: about a dozen things God did with your sin and 768 00:41:11,660 --> 00:41:14,220 S1: three things he'll never do. And you talked about he 769 00:41:14,219 --> 00:41:18,859 S1: laid our sin on Jesus substitutionary atonement. And then you've 770 00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:22,100 S1: talked about, um, the fact that God's wrath had to 771 00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:24,860 S1: be satisfied. And then we moved and talked about hell, 772 00:41:24,860 --> 00:41:27,300 S1: and we talked about whether or not this was going 773 00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:30,940 S1: to be, um, someone is ultimately annihilated or ultimately everyone 774 00:41:30,940 --> 00:41:33,460 S1: just goes to heaven anyway and thrown in there, by 775 00:41:33,460 --> 00:41:36,540 S1: the way, just for conversation to talk about burning sulfur. 776 00:41:36,540 --> 00:41:38,379 S1: So tell me again how this all ties back into 777 00:41:38,420 --> 00:41:39,100 S1: God's love. 778 00:41:41,420 --> 00:41:45,060 S6: Well, I know this is going to open up a 779 00:41:45,060 --> 00:41:47,580 S6: whole can of worms and people who are listening. I'm 780 00:41:47,580 --> 00:41:49,420 S6: just preparing you, folks. You're not going to like what 781 00:41:49,420 --> 00:41:54,859 S6: you hear. God's greatest love is for the holiness of 782 00:41:54,860 --> 00:41:55,860 S6: his own name. 783 00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:56,470 S1: Mm. 784 00:41:56,550 --> 00:42:00,590 S6: God loves himself. Pre-eminently. And let me tell you something 785 00:42:00,590 --> 00:42:05,430 S6: that is not selfishness. Because what God does in his 786 00:42:05,469 --> 00:42:09,029 S6: love for himself is to awaken us to his greatness, 787 00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:11,669 S6: his beauty, his glory, and his majesty. What's the most 788 00:42:11,670 --> 00:42:14,669 S6: loving thing that God could do for us sinners? It 789 00:42:14,670 --> 00:42:16,830 S6: is to give us himself, to open our eyes to 790 00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:20,589 S6: his splendor and his majesty. So if God doesn't love 791 00:42:20,590 --> 00:42:24,630 S6: himself Pre-eminently, he can't love us at all. So again, 792 00:42:25,350 --> 00:42:29,870 S6: I know it sounds strange, but God's commitment to retributive 793 00:42:29,870 --> 00:42:33,710 S6: justice and holiness and wrath is in fact an expression 794 00:42:33,710 --> 00:42:36,750 S6: of his love for his, for himself, for his own name, 795 00:42:36,750 --> 00:42:39,950 S6: for his reputation. In fact, it's interesting. I don't know 796 00:42:40,350 --> 00:42:44,110 S6: how many times people think of this, but yes, Jesus 797 00:42:44,110 --> 00:42:47,270 S6: died for us. But there's another sense in which Jesus 798 00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:49,870 S6: died for God. Now, I don't mean like that in 799 00:42:49,870 --> 00:42:53,350 S6: a substitutionary way, but listen to what Paul says in 800 00:42:53,350 --> 00:42:56,710 S6: Romans chapter three. He says, God put him forth as 801 00:42:56,710 --> 00:43:00,230 S6: a propitiation by his blood to receive by faith. This 802 00:43:00,230 --> 00:43:04,070 S6: was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance 803 00:43:04,070 --> 00:43:06,989 S6: he had passed over for former sins. It was to 804 00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:10,230 S6: show his righteousness at the present time, so that he 805 00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:12,150 S6: might be the just and the justifier of the one 806 00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:15,230 S6: who has faith in Jesus. So, in other words, yes, 807 00:43:15,430 --> 00:43:19,069 S6: Jesus died in our place. He's our substitute. But his 808 00:43:19,070 --> 00:43:23,469 S6: death was also a demonstration of the righteousness of God 809 00:43:23,469 --> 00:43:25,989 S6: that God does not wink at sin. It was to 810 00:43:26,030 --> 00:43:29,230 S6: demonstrate how God can be just and righteous and true, 811 00:43:29,230 --> 00:43:31,950 S6: even though all through the Old Testament there was no 812 00:43:31,950 --> 00:43:35,910 S6: final dealing with sin. And Paul saying it was in 813 00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:38,870 S6: God's forbearance, he waited until the time when Jesus would 814 00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:41,870 S6: become man and suffer on the cross. That's when he 815 00:43:41,870 --> 00:43:46,430 S6: vindicated the holiness of God, the justice of God, all 816 00:43:46,430 --> 00:43:48,390 S6: of which is an expression of God's love. 817 00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:49,710 S5: Wow. Well. 818 00:43:49,989 --> 00:43:52,270 S1: Did I not tell you that this would be a 819 00:43:52,270 --> 00:43:55,319 S1: delicious conversation, and b that we were going to think 820 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,799 S1: critically and biblically. And like I said, this is just 821 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,120 S1: the tip of the iceberg. There's oh, so much more 822 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,839 S1: to this idea of how much God loves us and 823 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,719 S1: this issue of our sin. And I so appreciate, Sam, 824 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,160 S1: what you just said about the holiness of God. I 825 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:09,879 S1: have to tell you, in my own life, that's where 826 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,880 S1: I constantly have to go back to again. That's the 827 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,840 S1: northern star. You have the privilege to enter the throne 828 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,279 S1: room of a holy God. Keep your lists short of wrongdoing, 829 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:25,160 S1: work about your salvation. Make sure that you're working on sanctification, 830 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,880 S1: and understand that we are called to be holy as 831 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,640 S1: he is holy. Wow, there's so much there. Boy, I 832 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,040 S1: don't know where we'll go the next time. We could 833 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,040 S1: talk about understanding prayer. We could talk about understanding worship. 834 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:36,680 S1: We could open up the phone lines and let people 835 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,200 S1: ask any question they've got. That's the joy of spending 836 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,520 S1: time with Doctor Sam Storms. He is an encyclopedia of 837 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,719 S1: biblical teaching and we all love it and are better 838 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:46,680 S1: for it. Thank you Sam. Thank you friends. We'll see 839 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,920 S1: you next time on In the Market with Janet Parshall.