1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 S1: Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,160 S1: downloading this podcast, and I hope you hear something that 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,560 S1: will really encourage and edify you. But before you start 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,400 S1: to listen, let me take a moment of your time 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,399 S1: and tell you about this month's truth tool. It's called 6 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,640 S1: secure How to Have a Healthy Attachment to God. And 7 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,360 S1: it follows that very often, whatever our relationship is like 8 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,000 S1: with authority figures, predominantly our parents, we somehow transferred to 9 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,040 S1: how we see God. So if we have an angry parent, 10 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,319 S1: he's an angry God. If it's a distant parent, he's 11 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,520 S1: a God who's not there. I think it's important we 12 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,680 S1: understand who God really is. And in this wonderful book 13 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,760 S1: called secure, you're going to discover the character of God 14 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,120 S1: and how deeply in love God is with you. It's 15 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,839 S1: our truth tool. Our truth tools are my way of 16 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,680 S1: saying thank you because we are listener supported radio. So 17 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,600 S1: if you'd like a copy of secure, just call eight 7758. 18 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,760 S1: That's eight 7758. Give a gift of any amount. My 19 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,840 S1: way of saying thank you for supporting the program is 20 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,000 S1: I'll send you a copy of secure. You can also 21 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,480 S1: do this online at in the Market with Janet Parshall. 22 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,560 S1: Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover 23 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,910 S1: of the book secure. Click on the photo. Go right 24 00:01:01,910 --> 00:01:03,950 S1: on through. Make your donation and we'll send you a 25 00:01:03,950 --> 00:01:06,750 S1: copy again of secure. If you want to consider becoming 26 00:01:06,750 --> 00:01:09,910 S1: a partial partner, that is the ever increasing circle of 27 00:01:09,910 --> 00:01:12,030 S1: friends who give every single month at a level of 28 00:01:12,069 --> 00:01:14,310 S1: their own choosing. And my way of saying thank you 29 00:01:14,310 --> 00:01:16,750 S1: is this you always get the truth tool for each 30 00:01:16,750 --> 00:01:18,910 S1: and every month. And in addition to that, you get 31 00:01:18,910 --> 00:01:21,869 S1: a weekly newsletter that includes some of my writing and 32 00:01:21,870 --> 00:01:24,430 S1: a little audio piece just for my partial partners. So 33 00:01:24,430 --> 00:01:27,350 S1: either way, thank you in advance for prayerfully considering the 34 00:01:27,350 --> 00:01:30,670 S1: opportunity to financially support in the market with Janet partial 35 00:01:30,670 --> 00:01:32,710 S1: and keeping it on the air now, I hope you 36 00:01:32,709 --> 00:01:34,870 S1: hear something that will encourage you to get out and 37 00:01:34,870 --> 00:01:37,830 S1: influence and occupy in the marketplace of ideas. 38 00:01:38,830 --> 00:01:40,350 S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 39 00:01:40,630 --> 00:01:42,870 S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 40 00:01:43,110 --> 00:01:45,110 S4: Americans worshiping government over God. 41 00:01:45,470 --> 00:01:47,910 S3: Extremely rare safety move by a major. 42 00:01:47,950 --> 00:01:50,910 S5: 17 years of Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. 43 00:01:51,190 --> 00:02:06,610 S3: Today is not over. Hi friends. 44 00:02:06,610 --> 00:02:09,130 S1: Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you 45 00:02:09,130 --> 00:02:11,290 S1: so much for spending the hour with me. We are 46 00:02:11,290 --> 00:02:14,130 S1: opening the phone lines because once again, we're going to 47 00:02:14,130 --> 00:02:16,690 S1: take that heavy topic and lift it up and expose 48 00:02:16,690 --> 00:02:19,570 S1: it to the disinfectant of sunlight. It is the issue 49 00:02:19,570 --> 00:02:24,250 S1: of narcissism, which is a sadly misunderstood issue in the 50 00:02:24,250 --> 00:02:27,770 S1: culture writ large, but in the church in particular, and 51 00:02:27,770 --> 00:02:29,889 S1: if you're a follower of Jesus Christ and you want 52 00:02:29,889 --> 00:02:32,929 S1: to be conformed and transformed to his image, you want 53 00:02:32,930 --> 00:02:34,930 S1: to do the things that Scripture tells you to do 54 00:02:34,970 --> 00:02:39,250 S1: in terms of interacting with people, particularly people who aren't unpleasant. Well, 55 00:02:39,290 --> 00:02:41,730 S1: who are unpleasant. As my mom used to say, it's 56 00:02:41,730 --> 00:02:44,290 S1: easy to love the lovable. But what happens when somebody 57 00:02:44,290 --> 00:02:47,889 S1: has a narcissistic personality and it's all about them and 58 00:02:47,889 --> 00:02:49,490 S1: they suck the air out of the room and they 59 00:02:49,490 --> 00:02:52,410 S1: know how to gaslight and triangulate and pick a favorite 60 00:02:52,410 --> 00:02:55,210 S1: child and say one thing to a public crowd and 61 00:02:55,210 --> 00:02:58,600 S1: become an entirely different person when the door is shut 62 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,760 S1: in your home alone. A kind of Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. 63 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,840 S1: So we've been having conversations with Laurel Slade Wagner for 64 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,480 S1: a long time on this topic. She is, from my perspective, 65 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,880 S1: the preeminent expert on this. And I'll tell you why not. 66 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,160 S1: Because she just counsels on this topic and I'll give 67 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,800 S1: you the formal introduction with all of her curriculum vitae 68 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,480 S1: items in a minute. But because she suffered through this, 69 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,240 S1: she was the daughter of narcissistic parents, and her first 70 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,480 S1: marriage was not surprising. Happens all the time. She ends 71 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,800 S1: up gravitating to a narcissist. She saw exactly how a 72 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,680 S1: narcissist can manipulate children saw it being done with her 73 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,480 S1: children as well. But God turns around as he so 74 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,560 S1: often does, and he creates wounded comforters. And that's exactly 75 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,320 S1: who Laurel is. She knows this not just in her head, 76 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,920 S1: but in her heart and experientially. So we are going 77 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,320 S1: to continue to have these conversations on the topic of narcissism, 78 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,400 S1: so that you yourself can find a safe place to talk. 79 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,680 S1: I know quietly, some of you are thinking, what's wrong 80 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,200 S1: with me if I just change my attitude? Maybe he 81 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,680 S1: would change his attitude. And by the way, I'm not 82 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,390 S1: being purposely selective on those pronouns. This is not a 83 00:03:58,390 --> 00:04:01,070 S1: gender specific problem, by the way. It's men and women. 84 00:04:01,070 --> 00:04:03,630 S1: I'm just doing it for ease of conversation and not 85 00:04:03,630 --> 00:04:06,270 S1: boring you with double pronouns for everything. But please know 86 00:04:06,270 --> 00:04:09,670 S1: that this is not anti-male because there are male and 87 00:04:09,670 --> 00:04:12,230 S1: there are female narcissists, and I see heads nodding in 88 00:04:12,230 --> 00:04:15,510 S1: the audience figuratively, because some of you know exactly what 89 00:04:15,510 --> 00:04:17,229 S1: it's like to have a female as well as a 90 00:04:17,230 --> 00:04:20,430 S1: male narcissist experience in your life. So we're going to 91 00:04:20,430 --> 00:04:25,430 S1: take your calls at (877) 548-3675. Questions only. But on the 92 00:04:25,430 --> 00:04:27,710 S1: topic of narcissism and just if you're new, I want 93 00:04:27,710 --> 00:04:29,790 S1: you to know that when Laurel comes to visit, the 94 00:04:29,790 --> 00:04:31,830 S1: lines light up. In fact, they're generally lit for the 95 00:04:31,830 --> 00:04:34,270 S1: entire hour, which means we're tapping into a vein of 96 00:04:34,270 --> 00:04:37,190 S1: hurt here. And I really want to continue until I 97 00:04:37,190 --> 00:04:39,669 S1: feel like every question you've got, every bit of comfort 98 00:04:39,670 --> 00:04:42,549 S1: you need, every cup of encouragement you should be given 99 00:04:42,670 --> 00:04:51,310 S1: has been given to you. So again, our number is 87754836758775483675. 100 00:04:51,350 --> 00:04:53,710 S1: Let me just put this as a drop background. And 101 00:04:53,710 --> 00:04:55,290 S1: then I'm going to ask Laurel to start with this 102 00:04:55,290 --> 00:04:57,489 S1: before we get into your calls. So I was thinking 103 00:04:57,490 --> 00:05:01,330 S1: about the relationship between narcissism and social media. And I 104 00:05:01,330 --> 00:05:04,530 S1: don't know when you get likes and swipes and all 105 00:05:04,570 --> 00:05:06,930 S1: of the other verbiage that goes into that world where 106 00:05:06,930 --> 00:05:11,410 S1: somehow your value, your determination, your interpretation of self is 107 00:05:11,410 --> 00:05:14,890 S1: predicated on thumbs up, likes or swipes. First of all, 108 00:05:14,890 --> 00:05:17,489 S1: that's a very false metric. I mean, it's a demonic 109 00:05:17,490 --> 00:05:19,890 S1: metric if you want my honest opinion on that. But 110 00:05:19,890 --> 00:05:23,410 S1: I've often thought that when you call yourself an influencer, 111 00:05:23,770 --> 00:05:26,890 S1: you know, you you don't graduate from college and get 112 00:05:26,890 --> 00:05:30,450 S1: a diploma. And influencing it is if you start thinking 113 00:05:30,450 --> 00:05:34,170 S1: about it critically and biblically. It's a self described title. 114 00:05:34,170 --> 00:05:37,170 S1: So and so is an influencer. Why? Because they teach 115 00:05:37,170 --> 00:05:39,890 S1: you how to love cats or eat at a restaurant 116 00:05:39,890 --> 00:05:43,970 S1: or put your makeup on. And apparently after a certain unknown, 117 00:05:44,010 --> 00:05:46,849 S1: unstated number, you then have hit the tripwire of being 118 00:05:47,130 --> 00:05:50,970 S1: an influencer. I find it audacious and replete with hubris 119 00:05:50,970 --> 00:05:54,280 S1: that somebody would identify themselves, whether they're showing up on 120 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,279 S1: a national talk show because they call themselves an influencer, 121 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,240 S1: or they describe that themselves on their own social platform. 122 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,159 S1: In order to be an influencer, apparently you have to 123 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,599 S1: give evidence to the fact that you have influence. Now, 124 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,720 S1: that begs the question. You may or may not be 125 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,599 S1: influencing people, but wouldn't the thinking right question as a 126 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,880 S1: follow up be are you influencing for good or for ill? 127 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,000 S1: I will leave that to your judgment. Hopefully it's biblically 128 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,800 S1: based judgment, but how about dating apps? Well, I came 129 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,400 S1: across an article where the author of the article, students 130 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,040 S1: said that dating apps don't create an artist's narcissism, but 131 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,359 S1: their design amplifies it. When you think about it, I mean, 132 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,000 S1: I don't use one. I know that there are a 133 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,279 S1: lot of people have, and I know a lot of 134 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,039 S1: people have found their soulmate. But I have to tell 135 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,000 S1: you that even the few minutes I've spent with people 136 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,840 S1: who are looking at those apps, I'm looking at the 137 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:43,320 S1: individual and I'm thinking, who's posted on this particular dating app? 138 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,040 S1: And I'm always surprised at a sometimes the lack of 139 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,920 S1: modesty or what attributes you think should be most underscored 140 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,200 S1: for the person who's window shopping. I don't know how 141 00:06:52,270 --> 00:06:54,150 S1: else to call it, but I have to tell you 142 00:06:54,150 --> 00:06:56,710 S1: that I think it's a playground, if you will. Maybe 143 00:06:56,710 --> 00:06:59,990 S1: a petri dish would be a better word for growing narcissism. 144 00:06:59,990 --> 00:07:02,349 S1: So they authored this article says the result is familiar 145 00:07:02,350 --> 00:07:06,430 S1: to many daters rapid intensity followed by emotional withdrawal mirroring, 146 00:07:06,470 --> 00:07:11,430 S1: followed by ghosting. These behaviors align with documented narcissistic dating patterns, 147 00:07:11,430 --> 00:07:17,030 S1: vast idealization, idealization, boundary testing, and disappearing once novelty fades. 148 00:07:17,230 --> 00:07:21,310 S1: Dating apps aren't inherently toxic, says the author, and many 149 00:07:21,310 --> 00:07:24,430 S1: people find meaningful relationships through them. The issue isn't the medium, 150 00:07:24,430 --> 00:07:27,710 S1: but the incentives it rewards. In other words, if you 151 00:07:27,750 --> 00:07:30,230 S1: already have a propensity for narcissism, this isn't going to 152 00:07:30,230 --> 00:07:32,030 S1: help you one iota. You're going to live in a 153 00:07:32,470 --> 00:07:36,310 S1: world of fantasy. Now the the official introduction of Laurel 154 00:07:36,310 --> 00:07:41,910 S1: Slade Wagner. Professional, personal, Christian professional, Christian counselor, licensed mental 155 00:07:41,910 --> 00:07:45,470 S1: health counselor, licensed marriage and family therapist all within the 156 00:07:45,470 --> 00:07:47,870 S1: state of Florida. She's got a private practice in the 157 00:07:47,870 --> 00:07:50,270 S1: Tampa Bay area. She's been doing it for two decades. 158 00:07:50,430 --> 00:07:52,490 S1: She's written a couple of excellent books, with a third 159 00:07:52,490 --> 00:07:54,930 S1: one coming down the road apiece. One is called Don't 160 00:07:54,930 --> 00:07:57,330 S1: Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy. How to stay Sane 161 00:07:57,330 --> 00:07:59,250 S1: and Strong. When the narcissist in your life is trying 162 00:07:59,250 --> 00:08:01,570 S1: to control or abuse you. The second is don't let 163 00:08:01,570 --> 00:08:04,250 S1: their crazy make your kids crazy. How to shield your 164 00:08:04,250 --> 00:08:07,970 S1: children from their narcissistic parents control and manipulation, and one 165 00:08:07,970 --> 00:08:09,930 S1: that will be coming out soon. How to respond to 166 00:08:09,970 --> 00:08:13,530 S1: a narcissist A Christian's Guide for Standing Up to Control 167 00:08:13,570 --> 00:08:16,850 S1: Manipulation and Abuse. On our website, I have a direct 168 00:08:16,850 --> 00:08:19,330 S1: link to Laurel's website so that if you want to 169 00:08:19,330 --> 00:08:22,970 S1: go deeper professionally, privately, you can do that. Laurel talks 170 00:08:22,970 --> 00:08:26,050 S1: to people all over the country. So if that's something 171 00:08:26,050 --> 00:08:28,570 S1: you want, go to my website in the market with Janet. 172 00:08:30,010 --> 00:08:32,930 S1: Click on the red box that says Program Details and Audio. 173 00:08:32,929 --> 00:08:35,290 S1: It will get you to the information page, which I, 174 00:08:35,330 --> 00:08:37,450 S1: particularly in this case am glad you're going to go there. 175 00:08:37,490 --> 00:08:40,930 S1: You're going to see Laurel's beautiful picture, a longer bio, 176 00:08:41,090 --> 00:08:43,770 S1: a click to her website, and on the right hand side, 177 00:08:43,770 --> 00:08:45,930 S1: the two books that are already out there. She also 178 00:08:45,929 --> 00:08:48,170 S1: has a podcast. It's a great resource. It's free. It's 179 00:08:48,170 --> 00:08:50,439 S1: called help. I have a narcissist in my life. You 180 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,520 S1: can find that wherever you go to get any podcast. 181 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,280 S1: So let me do this. When we come back, let 182 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,360 S1: me ask Laurel to respond to this idea about whether 183 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,160 S1: or not dating apps can become a breeding ground for narcissism, 184 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,240 S1: or at least amplify the problem. And then we're going 185 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,079 S1: to take your calls. So again what you need is 186 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:17,360 S1: this the topic narcissism. Any questions any aspect (877) 548-3675. That's (877) 548-3675. 187 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,000 S1: Our entire hour is devoted to this topic, and we'll 188 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:21,840 S1: continue to do this as long as we get the 189 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,160 S1: kind of hefty response we've gotten since we started this. 190 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,840 S1: This hour is about hope and encouragement back after this. 191 00:09:54,750 --> 00:09:57,110 S1: How does our view of God get distorted? Do you 192 00:09:57,110 --> 00:09:59,550 S1: struggle with feeling close to God? Well, that's why I've 193 00:09:59,550 --> 00:10:02,550 S1: chosen secure how to have a healthy attachment to God. 194 00:10:02,550 --> 00:10:05,070 S1: As this month's truth tool, discover how to counter the 195 00:10:05,070 --> 00:10:07,830 S1: lies about the truth of God's character. Ask for your 196 00:10:07,830 --> 00:10:10,030 S1: copy of secure. When you give a gift of any 197 00:10:10,030 --> 00:10:14,030 S1: amount to in the market, call eight 7758. That's eight 198 00:10:14,070 --> 00:10:18,310 S1: 7758 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. 199 00:10:21,550 --> 00:10:24,710 S1: Wagner is with us, a board certified Christian counselor on 200 00:10:24,710 --> 00:10:30,390 S1: the table. The topic of narcissism. (877) 548-3675. We're going to 201 00:10:30,390 --> 00:10:32,790 S1: go to your calls in a bit. But warmest of 202 00:10:32,790 --> 00:10:34,670 S1: welcomes to you, to my friend, and I'd love to 203 00:10:34,670 --> 00:10:36,510 S1: get your take on some of the thoughts I had 204 00:10:36,510 --> 00:10:39,790 S1: about social media. And from your vantage point as a professional, 205 00:10:39,790 --> 00:10:42,630 S1: do you think that these apps and they're beneficial to 206 00:10:42,670 --> 00:10:45,990 S1: some they're they're problematic to others? Let's just put that 207 00:10:45,990 --> 00:10:50,050 S1: all out there. But I would think that this would foster, um, 208 00:10:50,050 --> 00:10:52,410 S1: everything that a narcissist wants. Talk to me about your 209 00:10:52,410 --> 00:10:53,170 S1: take on this. 210 00:10:54,210 --> 00:10:56,929 S6: Yes, you're absolutely right. And thank you so much for 211 00:10:56,929 --> 00:10:59,850 S6: having me back on. You're you're right. There's so many 212 00:10:59,890 --> 00:11:02,610 S6: hurting people out there, and there's not really a lot 213 00:11:02,610 --> 00:11:05,250 S6: of safe places they can go to within the church, 214 00:11:05,410 --> 00:11:08,890 S6: especially what you're talking about, about the dating. Um, it's 215 00:11:08,890 --> 00:11:11,929 S6: just they just don't feel safe. So thank you so 216 00:11:11,929 --> 00:11:16,809 S6: much for continuing to talk about this really misunderstood topic. 217 00:11:16,809 --> 00:11:21,170 S6: We've been talking about it for five years now. But yeah, 218 00:11:21,170 --> 00:11:23,970 S6: the people they're just hurting and they just need this 219 00:11:23,970 --> 00:11:26,570 S6: so much. So thank you. Thank you. I agree with 220 00:11:26,570 --> 00:11:31,970 S6: you 100% that the dating apps and social media at 221 00:11:31,970 --> 00:11:37,850 S6: large is a breeding ground for narcissism, because what they 222 00:11:37,850 --> 00:11:41,770 S6: do is they force you into a position of projecting 223 00:11:41,770 --> 00:11:45,530 S6: an idealized version of yourself. And that's something that narcissists 224 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,720 S6: do anyway. They they don't see themselves as they actually are. 225 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,000 S6: They see themselves as they want to be, and that's 226 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,720 S6: what they project. And so social media and dating sites, 227 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:01,520 S6: that's what they're doing. They're projecting this idealized false self 228 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,400 S6: out there. And because they have an excessive need for 229 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:10,960 S6: affirmation and attention, then that's getting fed. So it's this 230 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,880 S6: feedback loop of, okay, I'm putting it out there, this 231 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,880 S6: false image, I'm getting all this affirmation for it. So 232 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,120 S6: I'm going to do it all the more. And if 233 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,199 S6: victims aren't careful, they can fall into that trap too, 234 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,079 S6: because they're trying to please those narcissistic people. They're trying 235 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,959 S6: to keep up and get chosen over other people. So 236 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,079 S6: it can be very vicious. It can be horrible. I mean, 237 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,320 S6: I just I just get sick and the way that 238 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,880 S6: the algorithms work and everything. So, um, I have a, 239 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,280 S6: I like I have a personal Instagram, I have a 240 00:12:44,620 --> 00:12:48,820 S6: and then a business Instagram. Well, I don't even see 241 00:12:48,820 --> 00:12:53,340 S6: my business Instagram and my personal feed. And so my 242 00:12:53,340 --> 00:12:55,420 S6: media person told me, oh, in order to do that, 243 00:12:55,420 --> 00:12:58,100 S6: you have to go on your business and like a 244 00:12:58,100 --> 00:13:02,060 S6: bunch of your videos. Otherwise, you're not going to see 245 00:13:02,059 --> 00:13:05,540 S6: it because of the way the algorithms work. So if 246 00:13:05,540 --> 00:13:08,300 S6: I had, you know, looked at some cats like you 247 00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:10,460 S6: were talking about cats, that's big for some reason. 248 00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:11,380 S1: Pets, whatever. 249 00:13:11,420 --> 00:13:15,260 S6: Cats in particular. Yes. If I had clicked like on 250 00:13:15,260 --> 00:13:17,939 S6: those that I'm going to get a million cats that 251 00:13:17,940 --> 00:13:20,220 S6: pop up, but I'm not going to see my own site, 252 00:13:20,220 --> 00:13:22,459 S6: it just makes no sense to me. So I have 253 00:13:22,460 --> 00:13:25,660 S6: to literally pull up my site and and hit the 254 00:13:25,660 --> 00:13:27,860 S6: likes just so that it comes up on my feed, 255 00:13:27,860 --> 00:13:30,140 S6: so I don't have to go into it to see 256 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:33,260 S6: if the video posted or not. So it's just it's 257 00:13:33,260 --> 00:13:36,620 S6: just this crazy world of technology I really don't understand. 258 00:13:36,620 --> 00:13:40,020 S6: But I think that the the enemy of our souls 259 00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:43,690 S6: is is capitalizing on it. He's all over. Something was 260 00:13:43,690 --> 00:13:47,969 S6: meant for good. He has twisted for evil. And so people, um, 261 00:13:47,970 --> 00:13:51,530 S6: if they're going to date on the dating apps, I 262 00:13:52,250 --> 00:13:55,449 S6: if you look at those statistics, I think over 25% 263 00:13:55,450 --> 00:14:00,090 S6: of marriages were due to meeting someone on a dating site. 264 00:14:00,450 --> 00:14:02,770 S6: They can be a really good thing, but you have 265 00:14:02,770 --> 00:14:07,490 S6: to be very, very shrewd. Like Matthew 1016 says, we 266 00:14:07,730 --> 00:14:10,770 S6: need to be innocent as doves, but also shrewd as serpents. 267 00:14:10,770 --> 00:14:13,730 S1: So wise counsel, wise counsel. Laurel, thank you so much 268 00:14:13,730 --> 00:14:19,050 S1: for that. (877) 548-3675. We're going to take your calls. Now. 269 00:14:19,170 --> 00:14:21,890 S1: If you join us from Florida, I welcome you. We'd 270 00:14:21,890 --> 00:14:27,850 S1: love your question, please. You're on the air. 271 00:14:28,690 --> 00:14:29,010 S3: Oh. 272 00:14:30,050 --> 00:14:31,330 S7: Sorry. One second. Hello. 273 00:14:31,570 --> 00:14:33,410 S1: Yes, welcome. We're glad you're here. 274 00:14:33,450 --> 00:14:34,050 S8: So sorry. 275 00:14:34,330 --> 00:14:36,010 S1: That's quite all right. I'm glad you're here. 276 00:14:37,210 --> 00:14:43,760 S7: Yes. Good afternoon. I was calling because, um, my question is, I'm. 277 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,560 S7: I rely on my mother. I'm a single mom. So 278 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,680 S7: I just want to know, like, how do I deal 279 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,280 S7: with her as a Christian woman? Like, I keep my distance, 280 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,880 S7: but like I said, I rely on her at times 281 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,120 S7: because I need her. Like, how do I deal with 282 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,720 S7: the manipulation still and the favoritism, all of that. Like 283 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,720 S7: how what's your advice? I guess because I'm sure there's 284 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,640 S7: other people that probably deal with that. 285 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,360 S6: There are so many people that feel like that. And 286 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,080 S6: so that's where I wrote the first book of Don't 287 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,480 S6: Let the Crazy Make You Crazy. There's a lot of, um, 288 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,800 S6: dialoguing skills in there, but there's also a lot of 289 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,760 S6: strategies in there. Um, you do not want to give 290 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,080 S6: into fear, obligation or guilt. You want to make sure 291 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,240 S6: you have a plan for that. Um, you want to 292 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,440 S6: pick your battles. You want to. I call it Serenity 293 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,860 S6: Prayer living. So focus on what you can control. Let 294 00:15:42,860 --> 00:15:45,700 S6: the rest go. You want to be around her with 295 00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:49,820 S6: a really guarded heart. Um. You want to just guard 296 00:15:49,820 --> 00:15:54,060 S6: your heart in truth. So if she's a narcissist who 297 00:15:54,460 --> 00:15:59,220 S6: constantly uses criticism or condescension to bring you down and 298 00:15:59,220 --> 00:16:02,260 S6: wear you down, you just want to arm yourself with 299 00:16:02,260 --> 00:16:06,220 S6: truth about who you are and just kind of emotionally 300 00:16:06,220 --> 00:16:10,340 S6: detach from her. You're there. You're there physically, but you're 301 00:16:10,340 --> 00:16:15,700 S6: not so much there emotionally and and try to say no. 302 00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:17,780 S6: And that's why I say pick your battles. Like try 303 00:16:17,780 --> 00:16:20,540 S6: to figure out where you do need to draw the 304 00:16:20,540 --> 00:16:23,820 S6: line and say no, even though that she helps you out. 305 00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:26,780 S6: What can you do to kind of push back against 306 00:16:26,780 --> 00:16:29,340 S6: some of those narcissistic impacts? 307 00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:33,060 S1: And it sounds like the conundrum for you is that 308 00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:35,540 S1: as a single mom, she definitely needs her mother's help. 309 00:16:35,540 --> 00:16:37,900 S1: So she can't just say, I'm going to walk away 310 00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:41,450 S1: and practice the redemptive tool of separation. I need my mom. 311 00:16:41,450 --> 00:16:44,210 S1: I can't do this by myself. So, um. I loved 312 00:16:44,210 --> 00:16:47,850 S1: what you just said. So predominantly choose those battles carefully. 313 00:16:47,850 --> 00:16:50,370 S1: In other words, when she tries to engage and she's 314 00:16:50,370 --> 00:16:53,890 S1: taking you down a negative path, just use wonderful techniques 315 00:16:53,890 --> 00:16:55,690 S1: that you've taught us over and over again. Laurel, on 316 00:16:55,690 --> 00:16:57,970 S1: how you do not engage and go down that path. 317 00:16:58,610 --> 00:17:00,530 S1: I hope that that is an encouragement to you. Thank 318 00:17:00,530 --> 00:17:02,410 S1: you for what you're doing. You've got the most important 319 00:17:02,410 --> 00:17:04,450 S1: job in the world and nobody ever said it would 320 00:17:04,450 --> 00:17:05,970 S1: be easy. So thank you for being a part of 321 00:17:05,970 --> 00:17:08,330 S1: this conversation. Let me take a break and we'll come 322 00:17:08,369 --> 00:17:13,530 S1: right back. (877) 548-3675. It is our privilege to have Laurel 323 00:17:13,530 --> 00:17:15,649 S1: Slade Wagner with us for the entire hour, and we're 324 00:17:15,650 --> 00:17:18,129 S1: going to continue to take your questions on the topic 325 00:17:18,130 --> 00:17:27,250 S1: of narcissism. 87754836758775483675. And again, a bunch of resources right 326 00:17:27,250 --> 00:17:29,890 S1: there on our information page. So check it out. And 327 00:17:29,890 --> 00:17:33,330 S1: in the market with Janet Parshall we'll take a break. 328 00:17:33,369 --> 00:18:00,879 S1: Go right back to the phones after this. Back to 329 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:06,000 S1: the phones at (877) 548-3675 with our guest, Laurel Slade Wagner, 330 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,280 S1: board Certified Professional Christian counselor and author. Back to the phones. 331 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,399 S1: And we're going to go this time to Jennifer, who 332 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,320 S1: joins me from Indiana. Jennifer, the warmest of welcomes. Thanks 333 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,480 S1: for being here. Your question for Laurel, please. 334 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,320 S9: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I, I was 335 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:27,480 S9: in a very abusive relationship with a narcissist for a 336 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:34,760 S9: long time. Sorry. I'm really nervous. Um, so I throughout 337 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,020 S9: the course of almost a 20 year marriage. I had 338 00:18:38,020 --> 00:18:42,500 S9: been my life had been threatened. Um, I had been 339 00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:48,020 S9: physically and emotionally and sexually abused. He had shared photos 340 00:18:48,020 --> 00:18:51,100 S9: that he took of me without my knowledge on the internet. 341 00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:56,260 S9: Just things that, looking back, blow my mind. And I 342 00:18:56,260 --> 00:18:59,619 S9: stayed for that long because I had children and I. 343 00:19:00,020 --> 00:19:04,619 S9: I needed to protect them. Because when you divorce, children 344 00:19:04,619 --> 00:19:08,780 S9: go to the other parent's home. So I stayed. My 345 00:19:08,780 --> 00:19:13,220 S9: question now is, and some of this has been brought 346 00:19:13,220 --> 00:19:16,620 S9: up by that lady in France who's recently in the news. 347 00:19:16,660 --> 00:19:21,179 S9: It's I have a lot of flashbacks. When I hear 348 00:19:21,180 --> 00:19:24,740 S9: of other people being abused. I have a lot of flashbacks, 349 00:19:24,780 --> 00:19:29,980 S9: even though this was quite a while ago. I don't 350 00:19:29,980 --> 00:19:35,140 S9: know how to reconcile in my own mind that I 351 00:19:35,180 --> 00:19:39,290 S9: let myself be treated that way, and I'm having a 352 00:19:39,290 --> 00:19:44,889 S9: very hard time getting past it, even though it's been 353 00:19:44,890 --> 00:19:48,410 S9: a while. And sometimes it makes me wonder if I 354 00:19:48,410 --> 00:19:51,250 S9: ever will. But when I go to church and I 355 00:19:51,250 --> 00:19:54,050 S9: read the Bible, I know that we are supposed to 356 00:19:54,090 --> 00:19:59,530 S9: move forward. And, um, so I'm not in the situation anymore. 357 00:19:59,650 --> 00:20:03,650 S9: But part of me still feels like I am. And 358 00:20:04,330 --> 00:20:07,889 S9: I do have to see this person because we share children, 359 00:20:07,890 --> 00:20:11,690 S9: and even though they're adults, there are occasions where you're 360 00:20:11,690 --> 00:20:17,290 S9: in close proximity for weddings, graduations, things like that. So, um, 361 00:20:17,290 --> 00:20:21,609 S9: any advice you can give me on on how how 362 00:20:21,609 --> 00:20:24,690 S9: to deal with the fact that you, you still feel 363 00:20:24,690 --> 00:20:27,530 S9: like you're in it even when you're not because you 364 00:20:27,530 --> 00:20:31,290 S9: can't forgive yourself for for having allowed that. 365 00:20:32,170 --> 00:20:36,200 S6: Right. Well, Jennifer, I'm so glad that you called. And 366 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,199 S6: before I try to give you words of wisdom, I 367 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,640 S6: just want to give you love and just let you 368 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:46,320 S6: know that you're not alone and this isn't your fault 369 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:52,640 S6: and you're everything that you're experiencing. Anyone who's been in 370 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,840 S6: a relationship with someone who's narcissistic, they feel those same things. 371 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:02,040 S6: And so these are very common trauma impacts that you're 372 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,320 S6: dealing with. And I promise you, I promise you, you 373 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:11,080 S6: can heal and you and you can, uh, be free 374 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,600 S6: of the torment that you're living in right now. It's 375 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,480 S6: going to take a lot of work. Um, and like 376 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,200 S6: you said, it's so difficult when you have to see 377 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,000 S6: them occasionally. It brings back all those memories, and you 378 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,920 S6: put it so beautifully. You feel like you're still in it, 379 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:32,080 S6: even though you're not. And so you stayed for a 380 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:36,740 S6: very righteous reason. You wanted to protect your kids. He 381 00:21:36,740 --> 00:21:39,900 S6: was a monster. You didn't want him to have access 382 00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:42,700 S6: to those kids. So you wanted to be that buffer, 383 00:21:42,740 --> 00:21:47,060 S6: that shield to them. And so you're. Your height is righteous. 384 00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:51,060 S6: There's no guilt. There's no guilt that would be coming 385 00:21:51,060 --> 00:21:55,180 S6: from God. That's from maybe some projections that you've absorbed 386 00:21:55,180 --> 00:21:59,220 S6: from the enemy of our souls, but it's not from God. 387 00:21:59,220 --> 00:22:01,780 S6: You stayed for righteous reasons and you got out for 388 00:22:01,780 --> 00:22:07,540 S6: righteous reasons. So I recommend working with a Christian counselor 389 00:22:07,540 --> 00:22:11,380 S6: who specializes in trauma recovery that can help you develop 390 00:22:11,380 --> 00:22:14,859 S6: a plan for those flashbacks. And if you're having nightmares, 391 00:22:14,859 --> 00:22:19,140 S6: there's all kinds of things you can do. Um, because 392 00:22:19,140 --> 00:22:21,540 S6: what happens with the flashbacks is you're being pulled away 393 00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:25,260 S6: from the present, you're being pulled away back into the past. 394 00:22:25,260 --> 00:22:27,260 S6: And so you have to learn how to reground yourself 395 00:22:27,260 --> 00:22:31,980 S6: in the present, focusing on, on sensory information, you know, 396 00:22:32,570 --> 00:22:37,170 S6: saying in your head, I'm here now. I'm safe. You know, 397 00:22:37,210 --> 00:22:40,129 S6: just regrounding yourself in the present, regrounding yourself in the 398 00:22:40,130 --> 00:22:43,570 S6: surroundings that are around you. That counselor can work with 399 00:22:43,570 --> 00:22:47,330 S6: you to help. You can also, um, kind of unpack 400 00:22:47,609 --> 00:22:52,450 S6: all of these lives that you believe about yourself and, uh, 401 00:22:52,570 --> 00:22:56,969 S6: and about maybe God's power to heal. Um, and they 402 00:22:56,970 --> 00:23:00,650 S6: can really just speak truth into those lives that are 403 00:23:00,650 --> 00:23:03,969 S6: keeping you in this place of torment. If you don't 404 00:23:03,970 --> 00:23:07,530 S6: have a counselor that you know of, say it. On 405 00:23:07,530 --> 00:23:11,330 S6: almost every program, there's the American Association of Christian Counselors 406 00:23:11,690 --> 00:23:17,970 S6: and wonderful organization. I think of 7 or 8000 different counselors, um, 407 00:23:18,010 --> 00:23:20,409 S6: across the United States. You put in your zip code 408 00:23:20,410 --> 00:23:23,490 S6: and a bunch of options will pop up, and you 409 00:23:23,490 --> 00:23:27,810 S6: see who specializes in trauma recovery. And just like I said, 410 00:23:27,810 --> 00:23:32,000 S6: it's going to take some diligence, perseverance a lot of 411 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,600 S6: open mindedness to seeing yourself through God's eyes and seeing 412 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,560 S6: your preciousness. But you can reclaim that, and God will 413 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,760 S6: help you every step of the way. Mm. 414 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,199 S1: Thank you, Jennifer, so much for being a part of 415 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,600 S1: the conversation. And let me echo what Laura just said. 416 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,520 S1: I love the way you put that. You're out, but 417 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,919 S1: you're still in it. Just one quick word as we 418 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,200 S1: go to break on that. Laurel. That's so true, isn't it, 419 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,120 S1: for people who've not had this experience? God bless you. 420 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:58,840 S1: I'm glad that that hasn't been a part of your 421 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,640 S1: Pilgrim's Progress. But for those who have you, just the 422 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,280 S1: hurt lasts. Not just if a relationship ends, but it 423 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,040 S1: goes on generationally. Potentially. Talk to me about that. 424 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,879 S6: Yes. So I hear the music. I don't know if 425 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,360 S6: you want me to answer now or. 426 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,360 S1: You know what? You're such a pro. I appreciate you 427 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,359 S1: so much. Let me take a break and I'll give 428 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:21,800 S1: you all the time in the world. We'll come back 429 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,440 S1: on the other side. Laurel Slade Wagner is with us. 430 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,240 S1: And I'm so glad this actually gives me a chance 431 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,920 S1: to talk some more about some of her resources. Don't forget, 432 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,660 S1: she has a free podcast. It's called help. I have 433 00:24:31,660 --> 00:24:33,540 S1: a narcissist in my life. Just go wherever you find 434 00:24:33,540 --> 00:24:36,540 S1: your favorite podcast, you'll find it there on our website, 435 00:24:36,540 --> 00:24:39,060 S1: we have a link directly to her so that if 436 00:24:39,060 --> 00:24:42,340 S1: you wanted to go deeper privately, professionally, you can just 437 00:24:42,340 --> 00:24:44,580 S1: arrange that and she can talk to people by phone 438 00:24:44,580 --> 00:24:46,379 S1: anywhere in the world. So check that out. It's all 439 00:24:46,380 --> 00:24:48,780 S1: there on our information page at In the Market with 440 00:24:48,780 --> 00:25:07,420 S1: Janet Parshall back after this. There's a sense of anxiety 441 00:25:07,420 --> 00:25:09,580 S1: in our country, and I know you feel it too. 442 00:25:09,780 --> 00:25:12,139 S1: As a partial partner, you can help reach the world 443 00:25:12,140 --> 00:25:15,300 S1: with the truth and peace found only in Christ. And 444 00:25:15,420 --> 00:25:18,260 S1: as a partial partner, you'll receive exclusive behind the scenes 445 00:25:18,260 --> 00:25:21,179 S1: information and benefits directly from me, keeping you up to 446 00:25:21,220 --> 00:25:23,420 S1: date on what's going on in our world. So call 447 00:25:23,420 --> 00:25:27,139 S1: 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the market 448 00:25:27,140 --> 00:25:32,850 S1: with Janet Parshall We're spending the hour with Laurel Slade Wagner, 449 00:25:32,890 --> 00:25:36,930 S1: a board certified Christian professional counselor, licensed mental health counselor, 450 00:25:36,930 --> 00:25:39,370 S1: and a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state 451 00:25:39,369 --> 00:25:41,649 S1: of Florida, had a private practice there for close to 452 00:25:41,650 --> 00:25:44,850 S1: 20 plus years. She's the author of two books, Don't 453 00:25:44,850 --> 00:25:47,130 S1: Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy, and Don't Let Their 454 00:25:47,130 --> 00:25:50,090 S1: Crazy Make Your Kids Crazy, soon to be released how 455 00:25:50,090 --> 00:25:53,130 S1: to respond to a narcissist A Christian's Guide for Standing 456 00:25:53,130 --> 00:25:56,930 S1: Up to Control Manipulation and Abuse. She also has a 457 00:25:56,930 --> 00:26:00,090 S1: podcast help! I have a narcissist in my life and 458 00:26:00,090 --> 00:26:02,850 S1: you can find those wherever you go for your favorite podcast. 459 00:26:02,850 --> 00:26:06,169 S1: And don't forget on our information page, I've linked to 460 00:26:06,210 --> 00:26:09,169 S1: Laurel's website so that you can go. If you wanted 461 00:26:09,170 --> 00:26:12,850 S1: to talk to her privately, professionally, and at a deeper level, 462 00:26:12,850 --> 00:26:14,970 S1: you can do that by just clicking on that and 463 00:26:14,970 --> 00:26:17,369 S1: work through her office and she talks to people around 464 00:26:17,369 --> 00:26:19,890 S1: the globe. Every line is lit. This happens every single 465 00:26:19,890 --> 00:26:21,690 S1: time that Laurel comes. So I don't want to take 466 00:26:21,690 --> 00:26:24,930 S1: too much time with my question, but just and for 467 00:26:24,930 --> 00:26:29,080 S1: the sake of building sympathy for those whose lives have 468 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,679 S1: yet to intersect with the narcissist, and empathy for those 469 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,720 S1: whose lives do already connect with the narcissist. When our 470 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,080 S1: dear friend Jennifer called from Indiana, she said, I'm out, 471 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,040 S1: but I'm still in it. That was a very succinct 472 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,520 S1: way of describing the fact that the abuse, even if 473 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,640 S1: the abuser is out of your life and this is, 474 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,680 S1: by the way, a form of abuse, that the individual's 475 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,320 S1: abusive damage lingers, it's still there. And it also can 476 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,159 S1: have a generational impact. Just a quick word from you, Laurel, 477 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:56,679 S1: on that. 478 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,520 S6: Yes, absolutely. Because there are impacts to the children. And 479 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,560 S6: so as we've talked about before, children, um, they're used 480 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:11,480 S6: as pawns, they're used as spies. They're used to make 481 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,800 S6: the narcissist feel important. Um, they're used as a scapegoat. 482 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,760 S6: They're used as a golden child. Um, so there's all 483 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,919 S6: these different impacts to the children, and that's going to 484 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:29,140 S6: impact the children's relationship with you. So like you said, 485 00:27:29,180 --> 00:27:33,460 S6: there's so many reverberations. There's so many ripple effects of 486 00:27:33,980 --> 00:27:38,340 S6: of when there's a narcissistic parent there. Um, and it 487 00:27:38,340 --> 00:27:41,459 S6: is it's a lot of work learning how to figure 488 00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:44,619 S6: out how to deal with all that and really work 489 00:27:44,619 --> 00:27:48,060 S6: on your relationship with your children to neutralize some of 490 00:27:48,060 --> 00:27:53,500 S6: those impacts and, and minimize that narcissistic parents influence in 491 00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:56,300 S6: their lives. And it can be done. I don't want 492 00:27:56,300 --> 00:27:59,420 S6: people to think, oh, we just have to deal with 493 00:27:59,420 --> 00:28:03,100 S6: these narcissists. And, um, you know, we just it is 494 00:28:03,100 --> 00:28:05,260 S6: what it is. No, there are things we can do 495 00:28:05,580 --> 00:28:08,820 S6: that really work that neutralize their impacts. 496 00:28:08,980 --> 00:28:11,419 S1: Yeah, that's a good, good word of encouragement. Thank you 497 00:28:11,420 --> 00:28:17,220 S1: for that, Laurel. (877) 548-3675. That's our number. Laurel. Slade. Wagner. 498 00:28:17,220 --> 00:28:20,379 S1: I guess the topic narcissism and carries. You join us 499 00:28:20,380 --> 00:28:22,780 S1: from Arizona. Thank you for your patience. Welcome. And we'll 500 00:28:22,780 --> 00:28:23,980 S1: hear your question please. 501 00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:28,330 S10: Hi. Yeah, I am wondering about how to deal with 502 00:28:28,330 --> 00:28:32,770 S10: narcissists and the fallout that can happen at church. Um, 503 00:28:32,810 --> 00:28:36,850 S10: when I left the domestic violence, the fallout was awful 504 00:28:36,850 --> 00:28:40,770 S10: at my church, and I'm still dealing with the repercussions, and, um, 505 00:28:40,930 --> 00:28:43,770 S10: I'm not. I wasn't able to salvage the relationships, and 506 00:28:43,770 --> 00:28:46,690 S10: I wish I could, um. And I'm just wondering, is 507 00:28:46,690 --> 00:28:49,290 S10: there any way to to fix this, or is it 508 00:28:49,290 --> 00:28:52,810 S10: something that just is, um, something that happens after you 509 00:28:52,810 --> 00:28:53,850 S10: leave a narcissist? 510 00:28:54,490 --> 00:28:54,810 S8: Um. 511 00:28:56,210 --> 00:29:01,250 S6: And my heart just breaks cares because this happens a lot. 512 00:29:01,250 --> 00:29:03,930 S6: And that's why I think Janet and I have the 513 00:29:03,930 --> 00:29:08,010 S6: same heart. We just really want pastors and Christian counselors 514 00:29:08,010 --> 00:29:12,170 S6: and people in, in helping positions to be able to 515 00:29:12,170 --> 00:29:18,690 S6: understand the toxic and destructive and abusive dynamics when there 516 00:29:18,690 --> 00:29:24,840 S6: is a narcissistic person in your relationship and how Janet 517 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,040 S6: was talking about the redemptive tool of separation. God really 518 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,440 S6: is a God who pulls back his manifest presence when 519 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:39,040 S6: people sin and when people refuse to repent. And there's 520 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,880 S6: so many scriptures that support this. And so that's what 521 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,320 S6: we need to do. And instead of a lot of churches, 522 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,680 S6: you know, rallying around the victims and, and really affirming 523 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,920 S6: them for those choices, they kind of leave them out 524 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,160 S6: there all by themselves to deal with this. But you 525 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,320 S6: did the right thing. You actually did what God does 526 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,200 S6: by pulling back your your presence from someone who's abusive. 527 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,520 S6: And if you can't find the support and understanding within 528 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,360 S6: your own church home, there are lots of organizations you 529 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,840 S6: can get involved with. Celebrate recovery is a wonderful program. 530 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,880 S6: You can get into a codependency recovery group and be 531 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,820 S6: with other people who understand what you're going through. There's 532 00:30:26,420 --> 00:30:31,780 S6: there's national or international Bible study groups. I'm in one um, 533 00:30:31,820 --> 00:30:36,060 S6: called Bible study Foundations, BSF. It's amazing. And you meet 534 00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:41,420 S6: people outside of your church home. Um, so there are 535 00:30:41,420 --> 00:30:45,420 S6: so many options to get connected with the church at large. 536 00:30:45,420 --> 00:30:50,340 S6: If your specific church home will not listen to your 537 00:30:50,340 --> 00:30:54,700 S6: pain and understand that you were abused, and that God 538 00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:59,220 S6: really does use that redemptive tool of separation, and there's 539 00:30:59,220 --> 00:31:02,420 S6: lots of process scriptures that tell us to use that 540 00:31:02,420 --> 00:31:03,100 S6: as well. 541 00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:06,980 S1: Yeah, Chris, you're being very brave, but we can hear 542 00:31:06,980 --> 00:31:09,100 S1: the hurt in your voice. And I think it's because 543 00:31:09,100 --> 00:31:12,220 S1: there's a loss there. You've lost some relationships, you've lost 544 00:31:12,220 --> 00:31:15,180 S1: some friends, and that you're grieving the loss. Aside from 545 00:31:15,180 --> 00:31:17,700 S1: the fact that your good name has been besmirched, and 546 00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:19,380 S1: Proverbs tells us that a good name is to be 547 00:31:19,420 --> 00:31:22,730 S1: more highly valued than rubies. And you can't retrieve that. 548 00:31:22,730 --> 00:31:25,410 S1: You can't get the blemish off of your reputation, and 549 00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:28,130 S1: you've lost friends as a result of that. The only 550 00:31:28,130 --> 00:31:31,250 S1: word I can give you in, in addition to the 551 00:31:31,250 --> 00:31:34,490 S1: excellent counsel you just got from Laurel, is that God 552 00:31:34,490 --> 00:31:37,610 S1: is wonderful at restoring the years that the locusts have damaged, 553 00:31:37,610 --> 00:31:40,970 S1: and that if those relationships have faded away because you 554 00:31:41,010 --> 00:31:42,970 S1: made the right choice, then you will have a God, 555 00:31:43,010 --> 00:31:45,810 S1: a father who loves you so much. I truly believe, 556 00:31:45,810 --> 00:31:47,770 S1: and Laurel, I'm sure you do as well, that God 557 00:31:47,770 --> 00:31:52,330 S1: will replenish those relationships in your life with new friendships. 558 00:31:52,490 --> 00:31:55,450 S1: So wait on him. Trust in him. He knows your pain. 559 00:31:55,490 --> 00:31:58,210 S1: You may feel isolated, but he has not left you. 560 00:31:58,250 --> 00:32:00,890 S1: He will not forsake you and he knows exactly what 561 00:32:00,890 --> 00:32:03,010 S1: you're going through. So I hope you found some encouragement 562 00:32:03,010 --> 00:32:05,810 S1: in our conversation today. Laurel, do you want to add anything? 563 00:32:06,850 --> 00:32:11,010 S6: Uh, just look at job. He lost so much, but 564 00:32:11,010 --> 00:32:14,610 S6: God did restore what he lost, and. And that's a 565 00:32:14,610 --> 00:32:18,730 S6: really excellent point, Janet. It feels like things will never change. 566 00:32:18,770 --> 00:32:22,800 S6: Kind of like Jennifer was saying, two things will never change, 567 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,440 S6: but this is just one little slice of your life, 568 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,120 S6: and you can take those steps to reach out and 569 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,680 S6: to meet new people. And there are loving people who 570 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,080 S6: understand what it is like to be in an abusive relationship. 571 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,680 S6: Even if they haven't been in an abusive relationship themselves, 572 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,560 S6: they will. The Holy Spirit will prompt them to be 573 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,800 S6: empathetic and to be supportive. And in all their love 574 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,360 S6: and all their support and all their friendship is like 575 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,560 S6: a soothing balm that that just heals a lot of 576 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,920 S6: that pain and that grief. 577 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,120 S1: Thank you so much for being a part of this conversation, Karis. Luke, 578 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:01,920 S1: I turn to you. Thank you for joining us. Your 579 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:08,080 S1: question please. Yes. Thank you. You're here. Good. Join us. 580 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,960 S11: Hey. Yes? I'm here. Oh, man. I'm excited to be 581 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,160 S11: on here. Um, first I just want to say I'm. 582 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,780 S11: I'm praying for Jennifer. That was terrible to hear that. I, uh, 583 00:33:21,020 --> 00:33:24,620 S11: I just want to know why somebody close to me 584 00:33:24,620 --> 00:33:27,900 S11: and my family, um. I hate to talk about it. 585 00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:31,540 S11: I hope any of my family's not listening, but, uh, 586 00:33:31,540 --> 00:33:35,220 S11: somebody close to me in my family. Very successful person 587 00:33:35,260 --> 00:33:39,660 S11: is is, uh, definitely a narcissist, and I just. I 588 00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:42,100 S11: don't want to. I'm not trying to. I don't doubt 589 00:33:42,140 --> 00:33:47,940 S11: God's power, but is there any proof or stories of 590 00:33:47,980 --> 00:33:53,380 S11: someone changing from being that way? And, like, is it possible? 591 00:33:55,380 --> 00:33:56,700 S11: That's my question, I guess. 592 00:33:57,540 --> 00:33:59,260 S6: Well, and look, if you want us to call you 593 00:33:59,260 --> 00:34:03,540 S6: something different, like David or something, we can. So I 594 00:34:03,540 --> 00:34:08,100 S6: just want you to be protected. Um, that's a question 595 00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:11,899 S6: I get asked an awful lot. And so you have 596 00:34:11,900 --> 00:34:15,820 S6: to kind of think all things are possible with God, right? 597 00:34:15,860 --> 00:34:20,850 S6: They they are. God is all powerful. When we're talking 598 00:34:20,850 --> 00:34:25,210 S6: about character issues, um, there's a matter of will at play, 599 00:34:25,210 --> 00:34:30,810 S6: and so can a narcissist change? Absolutely. Will a narcissist change? 600 00:34:31,969 --> 00:34:34,690 S6: I haven't seen it happen. Unless there's some kind of 601 00:34:34,730 --> 00:34:39,290 S6: major catastrophe where they're stripped of all of their control 602 00:34:39,330 --> 00:34:44,529 S6: because that they have this cognitive rigidity. They. So if 603 00:34:44,530 --> 00:34:47,770 S6: you look at Proverbs 18 two, it says, a fool 604 00:34:47,770 --> 00:34:50,810 S6: finds no pleasure in understanding, but delights in airing their 605 00:34:50,810 --> 00:34:55,489 S6: own opinions. They're not open to new information. They're not. 606 00:34:55,969 --> 00:34:58,370 S6: They're not open to hearing your feelings. They're not open 607 00:34:58,370 --> 00:35:03,210 S6: to hearing your perspective. That's what the Bible calls biblical foolishness. Um, 608 00:35:03,210 --> 00:35:05,330 S6: they're wise in their own eyes. You can look up, 609 00:35:05,370 --> 00:35:08,530 S6: you can do a Google search on, uh, different Bible 610 00:35:08,530 --> 00:35:12,569 S6: verses regarding biblical foolishness, but they're not open to looking 611 00:35:12,570 --> 00:35:14,890 S6: at things from a different perspective, and they hang on 612 00:35:14,930 --> 00:35:17,790 S6: to that Onto that control. And that's where they get 613 00:35:17,790 --> 00:35:23,870 S6: very abusive. They get very manipulative. Covertly, sometimes or overtly. 614 00:35:23,870 --> 00:35:28,590 S6: Just flat out abusive. And so they don't want to change. 615 00:35:28,590 --> 00:35:31,310 S6: They use their free will to not change and to 616 00:35:31,350 --> 00:35:35,230 S6: convince other people to let them not change. And so 617 00:35:35,270 --> 00:35:39,990 S6: that's what today we call a personality disorder, where they're 618 00:35:39,989 --> 00:35:44,549 S6: just so rigid in their thinking, they're not open to changing. 619 00:35:44,550 --> 00:35:47,469 S6: And so it's not a matter of can they change? 620 00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:51,270 S6: It's a matter no, they typically will not change. They 621 00:35:51,270 --> 00:35:53,830 S6: refuse change. Hmm. 622 00:35:54,590 --> 00:35:56,549 S1: And, you know, it's interesting, Luke, we get asked that 623 00:35:56,550 --> 00:35:59,550 S1: question an awful lot because we believe in a God 624 00:35:59,670 --> 00:36:02,590 S1: who can change things. And so we look at this, this. 625 00:36:02,630 --> 00:36:04,629 S1: And I'll use your words, Laurel, because you've taught us 626 00:36:04,630 --> 00:36:08,390 S1: this cognitive rigidity. I love the word. I'm very simplistic 627 00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:10,350 S1: in my thinking. And I just think of Pharaoh with 628 00:36:10,350 --> 00:36:13,870 S1: a seared conscience there. He Pharaoh had a choice, right? 629 00:36:13,910 --> 00:36:16,340 S1: He could have let the people go. He chose not to. 630 00:36:16,380 --> 00:36:19,700 S1: And his heart was hardened. So it's hard for us 631 00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:21,819 S1: to conceptualize that there's a person out there who would 632 00:36:21,860 --> 00:36:25,259 S1: be so rigid, so locked in, in a personality that 633 00:36:25,260 --> 00:36:28,940 S1: was damaging both to the person himself or herself, and 634 00:36:28,940 --> 00:36:31,420 S1: to the people whose lives he impact that they wouldn't 635 00:36:31,420 --> 00:36:33,899 S1: want to change. And all you can do is just 636 00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,100 S1: pray and say, Lord, we leave it to you. We 637 00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:38,020 S1: leave it in your hands. So thank you for having 638 00:36:38,020 --> 00:36:40,500 S1: a heart that hopes that people can change. But it's tough. 639 00:36:40,700 --> 00:36:43,379 S1: And if they're not going to change, then, as Laurel says, 640 00:36:43,380 --> 00:36:45,379 S1: and she's written and she's counsel on, this is where 641 00:36:45,380 --> 00:36:46,620 S1: you and I have to learn how to deal with 642 00:36:46,620 --> 00:36:51,419 S1: those people whose cognitive rigidity makes them say, I'm not 643 00:36:51,420 --> 00:37:07,739 S1: going to change back after this. Back to the phones 644 00:37:07,739 --> 00:37:12,980 S1: at (877) 548-3675. We're talking with Laurel Slade Wagner, who's a 645 00:37:13,090 --> 00:37:17,090 S1: certified biblical Christian counselor. And we're talking about narcissism. And again, 646 00:37:17,410 --> 00:37:19,850 S1: has as has been the case for the close to 647 00:37:19,890 --> 00:37:22,170 S1: five years, Laurel and I have been talking about this. 648 00:37:22,570 --> 00:37:25,969 S1: The lines are overwhelmed. So again, be patient, but get 649 00:37:25,969 --> 00:37:27,770 S1: your call in when I say goodbye to somebody at 650 00:37:27,770 --> 00:37:33,730 S1: 8775483675K in Kentucky. Thank you for being here. Your question please. 651 00:37:35,250 --> 00:37:38,049 S12: Um, yes. I was just wondering, as a Christian, you 652 00:37:38,050 --> 00:37:43,250 S12: always hear the term not to use like labels for things, 653 00:37:43,730 --> 00:37:48,530 S12: and it's just, you know, so I was wondering if 654 00:37:48,890 --> 00:37:52,009 S12: you could help me out with understanding the difference in 655 00:37:52,050 --> 00:37:55,250 S12: that if trying to figure out how to word this correctly. 656 00:37:57,570 --> 00:38:01,690 S6: You mean that the labeling someone might be a sin? 657 00:38:02,930 --> 00:38:07,770 S12: No. That giving a label instead of calling it you 658 00:38:07,770 --> 00:38:11,689 S12: know what it is a sinful behavior. Um, you know, 659 00:38:11,730 --> 00:38:15,110 S12: I've heard, I've heard that, you know, not to give 660 00:38:15,110 --> 00:38:18,710 S12: people labels because it's just, you know, an excuse for 661 00:38:18,750 --> 00:38:21,830 S12: a sinful behavior. So that's where I'm just kind of, 662 00:38:21,870 --> 00:38:25,870 S12: you know, wanting some clarification on that, if that makes sense. 663 00:38:25,910 --> 00:38:30,870 S6: The question and that's a good, good question. So we 664 00:38:30,910 --> 00:38:36,870 S6: are not, um, to hate anybody and to condescend anybody. 665 00:38:36,870 --> 00:38:40,430 S6: And we're not to judge the Bible talks about not judging. 666 00:38:40,430 --> 00:38:44,790 S6: And that means judging, um, people's motivations. We don't really 667 00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:48,430 S6: know what's going on between a particular person and God. 668 00:38:48,469 --> 00:38:52,509 S6: What we are called to do in the Bible is 669 00:38:53,310 --> 00:38:55,990 S6: the Bible says a tree is known by its fruit, 670 00:38:55,989 --> 00:38:59,230 S6: and we're called to look at people's fruit. So what 671 00:38:59,230 --> 00:39:08,630 S6: kind of behaviors do they display? So um, narcissistic personality disorder, um, 672 00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:14,260 S6: and biblical foolishness if you chase the words back to 673 00:39:14,580 --> 00:39:17,140 S6: the original Hebrew, a lot of the words are the 674 00:39:17,140 --> 00:39:22,500 S6: same as are in the definition. The diagnostic manual for 675 00:39:22,580 --> 00:39:27,299 S6: the criteria for narcissistic personality disorder. And so that's describing 676 00:39:27,300 --> 00:39:31,100 S6: biblical foolishness. So they have a lack of empathy. They 677 00:39:31,100 --> 00:39:35,219 S6: have that cognitive rigidity. Um you can look at Proverbs 678 00:39:35,219 --> 00:39:38,819 S6: 616 through 19. It says there are six things the 679 00:39:38,820 --> 00:39:42,300 S6: Lord hates seven that are detestable to him, haughty eyes, 680 00:39:42,300 --> 00:39:46,540 S6: which that's um, in clinical language. Today's language, that's what 681 00:39:46,540 --> 00:39:50,580 S6: they call a superiority complex. They they think they're superior 682 00:39:50,580 --> 00:39:55,219 S6: to others. A lying tongue, they're deceitful hands that shed 683 00:39:55,260 --> 00:39:59,980 S6: innocent blood. That's them being manipulative and coming up with 684 00:39:59,980 --> 00:40:03,980 S6: some kind of way to exploit people or use people 685 00:40:03,980 --> 00:40:07,739 S6: or get what they want, feed their entitlement. So even 686 00:40:07,780 --> 00:40:10,530 S6: though it says hands that shed innocent blood. Its meaning 687 00:40:11,010 --> 00:40:15,650 S6: they're exploiting. They're using people. They're. They're manipulating people. Um, 688 00:40:15,690 --> 00:40:20,690 S6: a heart that devises wicked schemes. Same. Same thing. There's wickedness. There's. 689 00:40:20,730 --> 00:40:25,129 S6: They're trying to feed their fleshly desires, um, feet that 690 00:40:25,130 --> 00:40:28,129 S6: are quick to rush into evil so they don't give 691 00:40:28,170 --> 00:40:30,730 S6: thought to their ways. Like the Bible talks about a 692 00:40:30,730 --> 00:40:36,129 S6: wise person, a discerning person does. They fools are quick 693 00:40:36,130 --> 00:40:39,010 S6: to rush into evil and then false witness who pours 694 00:40:39,010 --> 00:40:41,489 S6: out lies, and a person who stirs up conflict in 695 00:40:41,489 --> 00:40:46,009 S6: the community. Um, narcissists are very divisive. And that's why 696 00:40:46,050 --> 00:40:50,049 S6: when Janet was talking about the redemptive tool of separation, 697 00:40:50,050 --> 00:40:53,649 S6: I said that there were process scriptures in dealing with 698 00:40:53,650 --> 00:40:57,330 S6: that divisiveness. Like Titus 310 says, do not get into 699 00:40:57,330 --> 00:41:00,650 S6: foolish arguments. Warn a person once, warn them twice, and 700 00:41:00,650 --> 00:41:05,250 S6: separate yourself from them. So God really does understand what 701 00:41:05,250 --> 00:41:10,550 S6: we call narcissism today. Um. God calls it. He calls 702 00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:14,310 S6: them fools in the Bible. He he flat out says, 703 00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:18,070 S6: these people are fools. Just like today. We might say 704 00:41:18,190 --> 00:41:20,989 S6: someone is a narcissist. It's just a shorter way of 705 00:41:20,989 --> 00:41:24,310 S6: talking about all that fruit, all those behaviors. 706 00:41:25,550 --> 00:41:28,230 S1: Mm. Thank you. Cave. Appreciate you being with us. I 707 00:41:28,230 --> 00:41:30,750 S1: really do, Rebecca. Let me welcome you. Thanks for joining us. 708 00:41:30,750 --> 00:41:31,870 S1: Your question please. 709 00:41:33,030 --> 00:41:37,110 S13: Thank you. I have a daughter in law who checks 710 00:41:37,110 --> 00:41:43,350 S13: every box that she just went over. And our daughter 711 00:41:43,350 --> 00:41:49,989 S13: in law is in charge of our granddaughter, who is 712 00:41:49,989 --> 00:41:59,630 S13: not her biological child. And because our relationship has been broken, 713 00:42:00,110 --> 00:42:06,230 S13: will not allow us to see our granddaughter and, um, 714 00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:11,660 S13: our granddaughter's mother and other family members have allowed us 715 00:42:11,820 --> 00:42:16,620 S13: to see her, which has gotten her a lot of 716 00:42:17,180 --> 00:42:25,660 S13: very hateful messages. And our granddaughter wants to see us, 717 00:42:25,660 --> 00:42:31,620 S13: but something has been said or something to her to 718 00:42:31,660 --> 00:42:38,740 S13: fear now seeing us. And we are considering a legal 719 00:42:38,739 --> 00:42:43,660 S13: grandparent rights. And what are your thoughts on that? 720 00:42:45,180 --> 00:42:50,180 S6: Um, that is a really it's a serious problem that 721 00:42:50,180 --> 00:42:55,779 S6: so many people are going through. And so first you 722 00:42:55,780 --> 00:42:58,700 S6: want to try to build that relationship with your with 723 00:42:58,700 --> 00:43:03,380 S6: your granddaughter. Praise God, you get to see her just 724 00:43:03,380 --> 00:43:04,940 S6: a little bit, even if it's just a little bit, 725 00:43:04,940 --> 00:43:06,649 S6: because there's a lot of people I work with that 726 00:43:06,650 --> 00:43:09,210 S6: don't have any access to their grandchildren. They have a 727 00:43:09,210 --> 00:43:13,930 S6: narcissistic daughter in law that is completely isolating them from 728 00:43:14,170 --> 00:43:19,490 S6: their their son and from their grandchildren. And so when 729 00:43:19,489 --> 00:43:23,609 S6: you get to see her, just be yourself, be the 730 00:43:23,610 --> 00:43:26,250 S6: fruit of the spirit. Just show her how gentle and 731 00:43:26,250 --> 00:43:29,930 S6: loving you are. So when they're saying horrible things about you, 732 00:43:29,930 --> 00:43:32,370 S6: it's not going to make sense to her because she's 733 00:43:32,370 --> 00:43:34,810 S6: going to see a different person. So you just keep 734 00:43:34,810 --> 00:43:39,770 S6: being you when you're in her presence. Just be loving 735 00:43:39,770 --> 00:43:44,410 S6: on her and be joyful and be gentle and, you know, 736 00:43:44,890 --> 00:43:47,489 S6: just affirming and letting her know that you love her 737 00:43:47,489 --> 00:43:50,450 S6: and you pray for her and asking her what? How 738 00:43:50,570 --> 00:43:52,730 S6: you can pray for her, just things like so she 739 00:43:52,730 --> 00:43:54,810 S6: sees that you have gentle interest and you love her. 740 00:43:54,810 --> 00:43:59,170 S6: And then just praying with your husband. Yes, um, if 741 00:43:59,170 --> 00:44:05,310 S6: there are grandparents rights, pursuing those and seeing what that entails. And, 742 00:44:05,310 --> 00:44:07,870 S6: and then really praying through what the impacts of that 743 00:44:07,870 --> 00:44:12,469 S6: would be. Um, every state is different. So I'd say 744 00:44:12,510 --> 00:44:14,870 S6: definitely something to explore. It doesn't mean you need to 745 00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:16,669 S6: do it, but definitely explore it. 746 00:44:16,910 --> 00:44:17,270 S3: Mhm. 747 00:44:18,190 --> 00:44:21,350 S1: Rebecca thank you. And again you articulated concern that so 748 00:44:21,350 --> 00:44:24,910 S1: many families whose lives intersect with narcissism deal with it 749 00:44:24,910 --> 00:44:27,550 S1: is this goes to the generational impact I was alluding 750 00:44:27,590 --> 00:44:30,750 S1: to earlier. It isn't just you immediately, but it's also 751 00:44:31,190 --> 00:44:34,029 S1: succeeding generations. It also tells us the power of a 752 00:44:34,030 --> 00:44:36,390 S1: lying tongue, by the way. And why that tongue, the 753 00:44:36,390 --> 00:44:38,670 S1: Bible tells us, has the power of life and death. 754 00:44:38,910 --> 00:44:40,989 S1: But be encouraged. And let me just echo something else 755 00:44:40,989 --> 00:44:44,470 S1: that Laura said it grandparents rights are different state by state, 756 00:44:44,469 --> 00:44:46,310 S1: so you'll have to roll up your sleeves and do 757 00:44:46,310 --> 00:44:48,670 S1: some homework. Let's hope that things get resolved before you 758 00:44:48,670 --> 00:44:51,069 S1: have to get to that point. However, let me say 759 00:44:51,070 --> 00:44:53,190 S1: to all the friends who didn't get on if the 760 00:44:53,190 --> 00:44:56,430 S1: Lord tarries and he allows, Laura will be back. Hopefully 761 00:44:56,430 --> 00:44:58,710 S1: we'll get your question the next time. Thanks, friends. We'll 762 00:44:58,710 --> 00:44:59,350 S1: see you then.