1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,160 S1: Today at the Radio Backyard fence. If you have struggled 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,799 S1: with the process of becoming more like Jesus, I have 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,120 S1: a guest for you who wants to come alongside, give 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,440 S1: you and me help, hope and direction. Psychologist, author and 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,480 S1: speaker Doctor Chris Thurmond has looked at the life of 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,639 S1: Jesus from his particular vantage point. He says Jesus was 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,360 S1: the only perfectly healthy person who's ever walked the planet, 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,080 S1: and he believes that developing a more Christ like soul 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,680 S1: will help us experience greater closeness with God and others 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,879 S1: around us. It'll give us a profound sense of meaning 11 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,720 S1: and purpose, and we will make the world a better place, 12 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,280 S1: just like Jesus did. The question is, how do we 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,559 S1: do that? My problem is I am less like Christ 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,760 S1: and more like Chris than I want to be. How 15 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,120 S1: about you? The way of the soul is coming up 16 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,080 S1: straight ahead on the program. From the heart to the 17 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,440 S1: heart for the heart. Let me thank our team. Ryan 18 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,600 S1: McConaughey is doing all things technical. Trish is our producer. 19 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,600 S1: Lisa is in the engineer chair today. Josh will be 20 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,720 S1: answering your calls. And if you are a parent, you 21 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,360 S1: want your children to find the abundant life that you've 22 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,440 S1: found in Jesus. But some adult children have decided they 23 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,240 S1: need space from mom and dad. There's some kind of 24 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,320 S1: fracture in the relationship, and a lot of parents have 25 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,080 S1: no idea what happened. What happened seemed to come out 26 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,440 S1: of nowhere. If that's you, enter Doctor Kathy Cook. Her 27 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,080 S1: book is our thank you right now. It's titled resolve, 28 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,959 S1: conflict and Find Peace and Hope with adult Children. You'll 29 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,720 S1: find out the difference between a difference that a noun 30 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,839 S1: and a verb can make when you use it with 31 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,800 S1: the word parent or parenting won't explain everything. The book 32 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,319 S1: does not explain everything, but it might give you hope 33 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,520 S1: and help you take a step toward your adult children. 34 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,240 S1: That's why I chose it last month and then have 35 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,800 S1: carried it over here on 2nd September. Give a gift 36 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,750 S1: of any Eyes at Chris Fabry live.org. Give a one 37 00:01:59,750 --> 00:02:02,870 S1: time gift. Become a partner. Give. Each month. You can 38 00:02:02,910 --> 00:02:05,230 S1: see more about that and the book there at the website. 39 00:02:05,230 --> 00:02:10,310 S1: Chris Fabry FABRY. Chris Fabry live.org. Or you can call 40 00:02:10,310 --> 00:02:18,830 S1: the number 866958669532279. And thank you for your support of 41 00:02:18,830 --> 00:02:22,429 S1: the radio Backyard Fence, which allows us to have conversations 42 00:02:22,430 --> 00:02:24,430 S1: like the one we're going to have today. And I 43 00:02:24,430 --> 00:02:26,270 S1: think the light bulb is going to come on. There 44 00:02:26,270 --> 00:02:30,670 S1: is somebody listening today and you're not expecting this, but 45 00:02:30,669 --> 00:02:33,389 S1: Doctor Thurman and I'll call him Chris because he asked 46 00:02:33,389 --> 00:02:35,950 S1: me to. Chris is going to talk about something here 47 00:02:35,950 --> 00:02:40,430 S1: today and give you an insight into the especially the 48 00:02:40,430 --> 00:02:45,470 S1: emotional life of Jesus that is going to inform your life. 49 00:02:45,510 --> 00:02:49,109 S1: See if I'm true. Uh, it's see if that's true. 50 00:02:49,150 --> 00:02:51,910 S1: Chris Thurman has been an agent of change for a 51 00:02:51,910 --> 00:02:54,070 S1: bunch of years. He's spoken into the lives of men 52 00:02:54,070 --> 00:02:58,630 S1: and women and couples, fellow Strugglers with his speaking, his counseling, 53 00:02:58,630 --> 00:03:03,910 S1: his books, including Real Marriage Made Simple and The Lies 54 00:03:03,910 --> 00:03:07,950 S1: We Believe. We've talked about that here. His latest just 55 00:03:07,950 --> 00:03:10,030 S1: came out a couple of days ago. It's titled The 56 00:03:10,030 --> 00:03:15,110 S1: Way of the Soul Becoming More Like Christ. Featured resource. 57 00:03:15,110 --> 00:03:18,790 S1: Chris fabriclive.org. Chris Thurman, welcome back to the program. How 58 00:03:18,830 --> 00:03:19,670 S1: are you doing today? 59 00:03:20,110 --> 00:03:22,630 S2: I'm doing well. Thank you for having me on, Chris, 60 00:03:22,630 --> 00:03:23,630 S2: I appreciate it. 61 00:03:24,070 --> 00:03:28,750 S1: You say that Jesus was the only perfectly sane person 62 00:03:28,750 --> 00:03:31,870 S1: or healthy person to ever walk the planet. Why is 63 00:03:31,870 --> 00:03:32,709 S1: that important? 64 00:03:34,030 --> 00:03:37,430 S2: Well, I think if we're not careful, not that we 65 00:03:37,430 --> 00:03:41,710 S2: shouldn't focus on his moral perfection, but I think we 66 00:03:41,710 --> 00:03:48,750 S2: need to see that a psychological perfection is what undergirds 67 00:03:48,750 --> 00:03:53,030 S2: moral perfection. And I wanted to write a book that 68 00:03:53,070 --> 00:03:59,140 S2: held Christ up as the only psychologically perfect person to 69 00:03:59,180 --> 00:04:03,180 S2: ever live, and then go into the 12 aspects of 70 00:04:03,180 --> 00:04:07,340 S2: his perfect psychological health. So it's really important to see him, 71 00:04:07,340 --> 00:04:10,780 S2: I think, from that particular vantage point, so that we 72 00:04:10,780 --> 00:04:15,780 S2: can have even more awe and respect for the Lord. 73 00:04:16,380 --> 00:04:20,140 S1: And then we can learn from that. It's not like 74 00:04:20,140 --> 00:04:22,260 S1: we can just imitate, oh, I'm going to do this. 75 00:04:22,300 --> 00:04:25,140 S1: I'm going to say the words like Jesus said and 76 00:04:25,140 --> 00:04:28,460 S1: imitate him. It's not, it's not. He's not trying to 77 00:04:28,460 --> 00:04:33,100 S1: make us copies. He wants us to be fully awake 78 00:04:33,100 --> 00:04:35,140 S1: and alive and growing. Right? 79 00:04:35,980 --> 00:04:38,620 S2: Absolutely. We, uh, you know, there are a lot of 80 00:04:38,620 --> 00:04:42,980 S2: verses in Scripture about maturing in Christ and pressing on 81 00:04:43,020 --> 00:04:47,580 S2: to the mark of his perfection. So, uh, the Lord 82 00:04:47,779 --> 00:04:50,780 S2: is very patient with us and wants us to go 83 00:04:50,779 --> 00:04:54,420 S2: on this journey with him as he shows us what 84 00:04:54,420 --> 00:04:58,020 S2: the psychological way is for how we are to live 85 00:04:58,020 --> 00:04:58,700 S2: our lives. 86 00:04:59,300 --> 00:05:02,020 S1: That's what I found most interesting about it. And the 87 00:05:02,020 --> 00:05:04,260 S1: other thing is that you give so many examples, you 88 00:05:04,260 --> 00:05:06,900 S1: give examples from your own life, or you take us 89 00:05:06,900 --> 00:05:10,820 S1: into the counseling office and you have a husband and wife. 90 00:05:10,820 --> 00:05:14,340 S1: And there for one of the principles is about listening 91 00:05:14,339 --> 00:05:16,859 S1: with your whole heart. We're going to we're going to 92 00:05:16,860 --> 00:05:19,060 S1: talk about those. But I want to go back to 93 00:05:19,100 --> 00:05:22,180 S1: the lies we believe, because that was all about transforming 94 00:05:22,180 --> 00:05:25,620 S1: your mind and seeing the lies that we kind of 95 00:05:25,660 --> 00:05:30,020 S1: buy into. This is another transformational concept, isn't it? 96 00:05:30,860 --> 00:05:35,260 S2: Well, I hope so. One of the 12 cornerstones of 97 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:40,820 S2: psychological health is the issue of viewing reality accurately. So 98 00:05:40,820 --> 00:05:43,540 S2: when I wrote The Lies, we believe it was an 99 00:05:43,540 --> 00:05:48,340 S2: effort to talk about how fractured our minds are and 100 00:05:48,339 --> 00:05:51,260 S2: how much help we need from the Holy Spirit to 101 00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:55,010 S2: develop the mind of Christ and to think of the 102 00:05:55,010 --> 00:05:59,890 S2: way he did so. Part and parcel of psychological health 103 00:05:59,890 --> 00:06:03,570 S2: is an accurate view of reality, and the Lord had 104 00:06:03,570 --> 00:06:04,650 S2: that in spades. 105 00:06:05,770 --> 00:06:11,490 S1: All right. So there are 12 principles for psychologically healthy 106 00:06:11,490 --> 00:06:15,289 S1: life that you say that Jesus exhibits. These are not 107 00:06:15,330 --> 00:06:18,130 S1: the these are not the only principles of life, but 108 00:06:18,130 --> 00:06:20,210 S1: these are kind of the bedrock. Right? 109 00:06:21,010 --> 00:06:24,050 S2: I think so. Uh, I kind of labored for a 110 00:06:24,089 --> 00:06:28,530 S2: long time over what was going to make the list. And, uh, 111 00:06:28,730 --> 00:06:32,570 S2: it was really hard to leave certain principles out. But yes, 112 00:06:32,570 --> 00:06:36,850 S2: I think these are the foundational bedrock of a psychologically 113 00:06:36,850 --> 00:06:40,370 S2: healthy life and how we can be more like the Lord. 114 00:06:40,970 --> 00:06:43,250 S1: Okay. So give us a you don't have to do 115 00:06:43,250 --> 00:06:47,330 S1: all 12. But but tell me what the first few 116 00:06:47,370 --> 00:06:49,849 S1: are so that our listeners get an idea of where 117 00:06:49,850 --> 00:06:50,850 S1: you're going with this. 118 00:06:51,410 --> 00:06:55,849 S2: Okay, well, one of the ones that's crucial, and it's 119 00:06:55,850 --> 00:06:58,849 S2: why I started off with it is give more than 120 00:06:58,850 --> 00:07:04,090 S2: you take. Uh, it's interesting that God would take human form, 121 00:07:04,529 --> 00:07:09,650 S2: but then say, I came to serve, not to be served. Uh, that. 122 00:07:12,570 --> 00:07:16,330 S1: And I think we just lost Chris. Okay. Uh, okay. 123 00:07:16,370 --> 00:07:20,370 S1: So give more than you take is the very first one. Um, 124 00:07:21,130 --> 00:07:24,770 S1: and then you've already mentioned the second, which is view 125 00:07:24,770 --> 00:07:30,490 S1: reality accurately. Uh, there's a couple of more here. The 126 00:07:30,490 --> 00:07:34,970 S1: number five is listen wholeheartedly. You've got to hear what 127 00:07:34,970 --> 00:07:39,130 S1: Chris has to say about that. Uh, forgiveness is in here. 128 00:07:39,410 --> 00:07:47,530 S1: Breaking free from idolatry. Compassion. Growing in self-awareness. Handling anger. 129 00:07:47,570 --> 00:07:51,880 S1: Anybody out there have a problem with anger and handling it. 130 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:53,960 S1: We're going to talk more about that. So let me 131 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,080 S1: take our break. Doctor Chris Thurman is with us. The 132 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,840 S1: way of the souls our featured resource. You can find 133 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,800 S1: it at Chris Fabry live.org. You see it right there. 134 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,760 S1: Chris fabry.org. The way of the soul. And you have 135 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,280 S1: to hear what Chris says, how he uses the example 136 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,000 S1: of his dad in one of these principles that's straight 137 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:25,880 S1: ahead on Moody Radio. Chris Thurman is with us at 138 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:27,920 S1: the Radio Backyard Fence. He's written a new book, The 139 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,400 S1: Way of the Soul Becoming More Like Christ. It's our 140 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,440 S1: featured resource at Chris Fabry live.org. And one of the 141 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:39,520 S1: components of this is these 12 principles that he's come 142 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,360 S1: up with. And he told us the first one of 143 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,920 S1: of Jesus give more than you take is how he 144 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,840 S1: uses it, that Jesus came to be served and not 145 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,480 S1: to serve. But Chris, as I was looking at that 146 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,520 S1: one and then looking at some of the others, it 147 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,679 S1: almost seems like there's a dark side to each of 148 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,840 S1: these as well. For example, um, give more than you take. 149 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,840 S1: There are some who can only give and never receive, 150 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,000 S1: and their giving is kind of the the net of 151 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,880 S1: their lives because they give to earn favor, they give 152 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,720 S1: to earn love and acceptance from others. They base their 153 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,679 S1: life on being able to give and not be needy. 154 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,560 S1: And that's kind of the other side of the equation 155 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,319 S1: of the balance. Do you agree with that? 156 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:30,000 S2: I do, Chris, I think that's a very interesting way 157 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,880 S2: of looking at it and appropriate, uh, I think of 158 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,400 S2: the enemy as being the god of extremes, and he 159 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:42,079 S2: doesn't care which direction he gets you on the service issue. 160 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,800 S2: Give more than you take. He doesn't care if you 161 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:50,950 S2: never give anything to anybody or just constantly, uh, serve 162 00:09:50,950 --> 00:09:53,590 S2: and serve and serve and let yourself be somewhat of 163 00:09:53,590 --> 00:09:56,750 S2: a doormat while you're out there. So I think each 164 00:09:56,750 --> 00:10:01,630 S2: of these can be turned to a malevolent, uh, end 165 00:10:01,630 --> 00:10:05,470 S2: and can be used by the enemy to damage your 166 00:10:05,510 --> 00:10:08,550 S2: psychological health rather than encourage it. 167 00:10:08,670 --> 00:10:14,950 S1: Yes. But Jesus. Jesus also was able to receive, uh, 168 00:10:14,950 --> 00:10:18,150 S1: he was, you know, because you used the foot washing 169 00:10:18,150 --> 00:10:22,030 S1: the disciples feet. That's, that's probably the starkest way, the 170 00:10:22,070 --> 00:10:25,750 S1: best example that we have. But there are times when 171 00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:28,230 S1: when people served him, you know, you got Mary and 172 00:10:28,230 --> 00:10:33,189 S1: Martha there or listening to him, uh, and doing things 173 00:10:33,190 --> 00:10:36,870 S1: for him, the woman at the well. So he, he 174 00:10:36,910 --> 00:10:41,310 S1: had a healthy view of allowing other people to minister 175 00:10:41,309 --> 00:10:42,390 S1: to him. Right. 176 00:10:43,230 --> 00:10:49,310 S2: I think that's correct. I think he had a serve first, uh, mindset, 177 00:10:49,710 --> 00:10:52,990 S2: but he was not, uh, of the opinion that it 178 00:10:52,990 --> 00:10:57,550 S2: was inherently selfish or sinful for him to be served. 179 00:10:57,870 --> 00:11:00,990 S2: I'm reminded of when he asked the disciples to stay 180 00:11:00,990 --> 00:11:04,069 S2: awake and pray for him while he was off in 181 00:11:04,070 --> 00:11:07,070 S2: the garden. Yes. And that was his asking them to 182 00:11:07,110 --> 00:11:09,870 S2: support him. That was the emotional need that he had 183 00:11:09,910 --> 00:11:12,470 S2: is I need your support. And I think it was 184 00:11:12,470 --> 00:11:16,510 S2: hurtful to him when he came back and found them asleep. Um, 185 00:11:16,510 --> 00:11:21,270 S2: and that's the Lord reacting with understandable hurt when they 186 00:11:21,270 --> 00:11:24,710 S2: did that, or Judas betrayed him or Peter denied knowing 187 00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:26,309 S2: him three different times. 188 00:11:26,990 --> 00:11:29,429 S1: So give more than you take was the first principle. 189 00:11:29,429 --> 00:11:33,750 S1: View reality accurately. You talked about that a little bit 190 00:11:33,750 --> 00:11:37,150 S1: because we talked about the lies. We believe. The third 191 00:11:37,150 --> 00:11:42,270 S1: is take appropriate responsibility. Um, can you can you unpack 192 00:11:42,309 --> 00:11:43,270 S1: that one for me? 193 00:11:44,140 --> 00:11:47,420 S2: Well, again, the devil's always in the extreme. So he 194 00:11:47,420 --> 00:11:51,420 S2: would like for you to make two mistakes. One would 195 00:11:51,420 --> 00:11:56,340 S2: be to blame every feeling and action you have on others, 196 00:11:56,580 --> 00:12:00,820 S2: and thus be irresponsible to not own your own stuff. 197 00:12:01,260 --> 00:12:04,380 S2: Or he would like for you to feel responsible for 198 00:12:04,380 --> 00:12:10,100 S2: everybody else's emotions and behavior and thus be hyper responsible. 199 00:12:10,300 --> 00:12:13,460 S2: Somewhere in the biblical middle is the Lord, where he 200 00:12:13,740 --> 00:12:18,500 S2: took responsibility flawlessly for his own actions, his own feelings, 201 00:12:18,940 --> 00:12:21,900 S2: and he put other people on that same hook. So 202 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:25,540 S2: he didn't walk around feeling like it's my fault that 203 00:12:25,580 --> 00:12:29,260 S2: the rich young ruler walked away. Sad or yes, you know, 204 00:12:29,300 --> 00:12:32,540 S2: it's my fault that the Pharisees treated me like dirt. 205 00:12:32,540 --> 00:12:37,340 S2: I shouldn't have been so opinionated. Um, so a really interesting, uh, 206 00:12:37,340 --> 00:12:39,620 S2: tightrope that he walked on that one issue. 207 00:12:40,460 --> 00:12:44,780 S1: Yeah. And that shows the in his humanity how healthy 208 00:12:44,820 --> 00:12:48,500 S1: he was. And it makes me think of how often, 209 00:12:48,540 --> 00:12:52,740 S1: you know, in today's world, with all of the social 210 00:12:52,740 --> 00:12:56,820 S1: media and the influencers, it's like we can base our 211 00:12:56,820 --> 00:13:01,140 S1: worth and a feeling with how many people like something 212 00:13:01,179 --> 00:13:05,660 S1: that we say online. And it seems like that that 213 00:13:05,660 --> 00:13:09,620 S1: did not faze Jesus, whether he had lots of followers 214 00:13:09,780 --> 00:13:14,060 S1: or very few of them. He didn't base his worth 215 00:13:14,059 --> 00:13:23,459 S1: or his of his emotional well-being on popularity. And I 216 00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:27,540 S1: think we might have lost it. I don't hear Chris. Okay, okay. 217 00:13:27,540 --> 00:13:30,219 S1: All right. Just making sure. All right. We'll get him 218 00:13:30,220 --> 00:13:32,460 S1: on the phone. But but that's a really good point 219 00:13:32,460 --> 00:13:35,500 S1: that I that I just made. How many people are 220 00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:38,860 S1: listening to me right now? And the one who's behind 221 00:13:38,860 --> 00:13:44,340 S1: the microphone, how much do we base our worth on 222 00:13:44,660 --> 00:13:48,579 S1: what other people think of us, or what other people 223 00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:53,500 S1: say about us? And how do we and how do 224 00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:56,939 S1: you overcome that? Well, first of all, it's not just, 225 00:13:56,980 --> 00:13:59,420 S1: you know, how much do we do it? It's how 226 00:13:59,420 --> 00:14:02,459 S1: do we see it? How do we, how do we 227 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:06,059 S1: find this out about ourselves? Because for me, and this 228 00:14:06,059 --> 00:14:07,860 S1: is another question I want to ask, Chris, is why 229 00:14:07,860 --> 00:14:11,220 S1: is it so much easier to see everybody else's unhealthy 230 00:14:11,220 --> 00:14:14,179 S1: ways of handling emotions? I can see it in some 231 00:14:14,179 --> 00:14:18,020 S1: of the ways that he writes about here in the book, 232 00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:21,380 S1: in the In the way of the soul, because he's 233 00:14:21,380 --> 00:14:24,300 S1: got the husband says this and the wife says this, 234 00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:26,820 S1: and they go back and forth and it's like, I 235 00:14:26,860 --> 00:14:30,820 S1: can see that. Why can't I see it in myself? 236 00:14:30,820 --> 00:14:36,540 S1: All right. So, Chris, um, we're talking about taking appropriate responsibility. 237 00:14:36,540 --> 00:14:39,060 S1: I don't know if you heard my question before you 238 00:14:39,060 --> 00:14:41,090 S1: went out. Did you hear that? 239 00:14:41,850 --> 00:14:43,690 S2: I did not, and I'm sorry. 240 00:14:44,050 --> 00:14:48,290 S1: That's all right. Um, we'll answer the the next question 241 00:14:48,290 --> 00:14:51,130 S1: I had. Is that why can I see somebody else's 242 00:14:51,450 --> 00:14:55,650 S1: inappropriate emotional unhealth and I can't see my own. 243 00:14:57,290 --> 00:15:00,850 S2: Well, I think that goes back to the fall, which 244 00:15:00,850 --> 00:15:06,450 S2: is where our self-awareness shattered into a million pieces and 245 00:15:06,450 --> 00:15:11,290 S2: our unwillingness to own our own stuff. And thus, Adam says, 246 00:15:11,290 --> 00:15:13,850 S2: it's the woman that you gave me that, you know, 247 00:15:13,890 --> 00:15:17,850 S2: caused me to misbehave. And Eve turned around and blamed 248 00:15:17,850 --> 00:15:22,170 S2: the snake. Um, so I think there's an inherent human 249 00:15:22,170 --> 00:15:28,450 S2: fallenness about being humble enough to square up with what's 250 00:15:28,450 --> 00:15:32,250 S2: wrong with you. Own it and be genuinely sorry. Uh, 251 00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:35,370 S2: rather than blame it on everybody else or let them 252 00:15:35,370 --> 00:15:39,010 S2: blame their stuff on you. So it's kind of a 253 00:15:39,010 --> 00:15:42,210 S2: sad part of the human condition that's been kind of 254 00:15:42,250 --> 00:15:44,210 S2: ruining the world ever since. 255 00:15:44,250 --> 00:15:48,050 S1: Yeah. But but this what you're talking about. And in 256 00:15:48,050 --> 00:15:50,050 S1: the book you say, I'd like for you to read, 257 00:15:50,090 --> 00:15:53,010 S1: you know, a chapter a week and really go through 258 00:15:53,050 --> 00:15:56,090 S1: maybe a couple of times, really go through this and 259 00:15:56,090 --> 00:15:59,210 S1: take a hard look at yourself as you're going through 260 00:15:59,210 --> 00:16:02,090 S1: this to see what comes up. And as I was 261 00:16:02,090 --> 00:16:05,890 S1: going through it, it's like time and time again, you're 262 00:16:05,890 --> 00:16:07,690 S1: touching the nerve. And I didn't have the time to 263 00:16:07,730 --> 00:16:10,290 S1: do it, you know, once a week. But it's like 264 00:16:10,330 --> 00:16:13,810 S1: you're hitting the nerve of a lot of things, especially 265 00:16:13,810 --> 00:16:15,850 S1: in the chapter on listening. And I want to get 266 00:16:15,850 --> 00:16:18,170 S1: to that. But here's the here's the best thing I 267 00:16:18,170 --> 00:16:21,050 S1: think we could do. Would you tell us the story 268 00:16:21,090 --> 00:16:26,250 S1: of your father and the struggle that you had with 269 00:16:26,250 --> 00:16:29,890 S1: your not to throw your dad under anything, but the 270 00:16:29,890 --> 00:16:34,010 S1: struggle that you had with your dad emotionally, and how 271 00:16:34,050 --> 00:16:38,520 S1: these 12 things or a few of them impacted you? 272 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,600 S2: Well, the, um, yeah, it was really convicting to when 273 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,240 S2: I thought back to my relationship with my dad. Um, 274 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,000 S2: I'll try to keep it short and sweet. Um, my 275 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,560 S2: dad was a really hard working, responsible, uh, human being 276 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,280 S2: and he, you know, really labored quite a bit in 277 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,520 S2: a 32 year military career to take care of our 278 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,600 S2: mom and us four boys. My dad grew up in 279 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,840 S2: that generation where being a good parent is you put 280 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,800 S2: a roof over their head, you put clothes on their back, 281 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,240 S2: you put food in their stomach, and you get them 282 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,360 S2: through college if you can. Uh, I felt very ignored 283 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,320 S2: by him and it wasn't malicious or intentional, but I 284 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,600 S2: just felt like, you know, he just doesn't seem to 285 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,000 S2: have much of an interest in having a relationship with me. 286 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,520 S2: He never comes my direction, never seeks me out, never 287 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,720 S2: asked me to go do anything with him or what 288 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,679 S2: I might want to do with him. And all of 289 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,520 S2: that reached a crescendo when I was getting my doctoral 290 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,320 S2: degree at the University of Texas, and he came to 291 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:54,640 S2: the graduation ceremony in Austin. And after a brief conversation 292 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,160 S2: about the evening ceremony, it occurred to me that he 293 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,040 S2: did not know what my PhD was in. And it 294 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,000 S2: was just I thought, oh man, how invisible must I 295 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,359 S2: be to you? And again, it wasn't malicious. It wasn't 296 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,640 S2: like my dad woke up every day thinking, how could 297 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,240 S2: he hurt son number three? But it was a real 298 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,920 S2: gut punch. And I, you know, the Lord. I kind 299 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,840 S2: of went off in a very bitter, resentful direction for 300 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,720 S2: a number of years. And then when I wrote this book, 301 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,679 S2: I thought, you know, the Holy Spirit's bringing that story 302 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,520 S2: back because he wants me to run myself through all 303 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:37,950 S2: 12 filters for how I handled it, specifically mishandled it 304 00:18:38,109 --> 00:18:40,670 S2: and I just clicked off every one of them. I 305 00:18:40,670 --> 00:18:43,590 S2: didn't take responsibility for my hurt because I blamed it 306 00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:47,830 S2: on him. I wasn't thinking correctly. I wasn't being forgiving. 307 00:18:47,830 --> 00:18:51,110 S2: I didn't have compassion for how he was raised. And 308 00:18:51,109 --> 00:18:53,830 S2: it was just like, oh man, I'm messing up on 309 00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:58,310 S2: all 12 and I just really need to repent of 310 00:18:58,350 --> 00:19:03,710 S2: that and restore the relationship and, and not be, you know, uh, 311 00:19:04,109 --> 00:19:06,389 S2: different from how the Lord would have been about it. 312 00:19:07,030 --> 00:19:09,869 S1: Okay, so take me back though, because you had spent 313 00:19:09,869 --> 00:19:14,070 S1: 11 years getting your PhD, you know, from undergrad through 314 00:19:14,910 --> 00:19:20,510 S1: grad school and, and on. And so in your mind, 315 00:19:20,590 --> 00:19:25,310 S1: you've spent all this time he has no idea what 316 00:19:25,310 --> 00:19:30,630 S1: you are a doctor of. Um, and so it, it 317 00:19:30,670 --> 00:19:35,030 S1: makes sense to me For for that to impact you 318 00:19:35,030 --> 00:19:40,350 S1: in some way emotionally, what would have been the, the, 319 00:19:40,350 --> 00:19:44,430 S1: the Jesus way, the more Christ like way to handle 320 00:19:44,430 --> 00:19:47,470 S1: that on that level. Dad, you don't know me, I 321 00:19:47,470 --> 00:19:48,629 S1: feel invisible. 322 00:19:49,109 --> 00:19:53,830 S2: Yeah. Well, I do think, uh, what the Holy Spirit 323 00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:58,230 S2: helped me to see was it was okay to feel hurt. Um, 324 00:19:58,670 --> 00:20:02,389 S2: I grew up kind of in the old traditional, you know, 325 00:20:02,430 --> 00:20:05,710 S2: never let them see you blink, don't let anything hurt you. 326 00:20:06,190 --> 00:20:09,470 S2: And so I was first, uh, helped to see, hey, 327 00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:13,590 S2: it's okay to be hurt, you know, by the fact 328 00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:18,310 S2: that you've been spending 11 years in higher education, studying 329 00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:22,070 S2: psychology the whole way, and your dad hasn't paid enough 330 00:20:22,070 --> 00:20:26,190 S2: attention to even know what your degrees are in. So 331 00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:28,790 S2: that was the starting point of, hey, it's okay to 332 00:20:28,790 --> 00:20:33,460 S2: feel hurt. It's okay to feel sad over that. And 333 00:20:33,500 --> 00:20:37,540 S2: then the Lord just systematically brought me back to don't 334 00:20:37,540 --> 00:20:42,660 S2: let a root of bitterness grow. Uh. Don't be resentful. Don't, uh, 335 00:20:42,700 --> 00:20:45,219 S2: hold it against them the rest of their lives. So 336 00:20:45,220 --> 00:20:49,540 S2: I began to go back into the biblical cornerstones of 337 00:20:49,540 --> 00:20:52,899 S2: how to be a healthy follower of Christ, and was 338 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:56,700 S2: able to get free from the bitterness that I felt. 339 00:20:56,980 --> 00:21:01,180 S2: I was able to repent of basically not having anything 340 00:21:01,180 --> 00:21:03,780 S2: to do with him for a number of years. And 341 00:21:03,780 --> 00:21:07,060 S2: I must say that it was helped along by the 342 00:21:07,060 --> 00:21:11,500 S2: fact that my dad started to have a dementia, and 343 00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:14,900 S2: I knew the clock was ticking for him. Even him 344 00:21:14,900 --> 00:21:17,300 S2: and I even being able to have a relationship of 345 00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:20,860 S2: any kind of depth. So I got off my high 346 00:21:20,900 --> 00:21:26,060 S2: horse and humbled myself and went back to my dad 347 00:21:26,060 --> 00:21:29,980 S2: and said, hey, I want to apologize for how dismissive 348 00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:32,780 S2: and disconnected. I have been from you. I want to 349 00:21:32,780 --> 00:21:36,220 S2: spend time with you and let's, you know, repair whatever 350 00:21:36,220 --> 00:21:38,340 S2: relationship we can at this point. 351 00:21:38,859 --> 00:21:40,380 S1: How did he respond to that? 352 00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:47,379 S2: Um, sometimes things are baked into the cake metaphorically, such 353 00:21:47,380 --> 00:21:51,020 S2: that a person is not able in that moment to 354 00:21:51,060 --> 00:21:57,060 S2: just automatically move toward healthier attachment and bonding. So he 355 00:21:57,060 --> 00:22:03,060 S2: was receptive. He certainly accepted my apology for how, you know, um, 356 00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:06,379 S2: dismissive I was of him for a number of years. 357 00:22:06,740 --> 00:22:10,380 S2: And we started having lunch. And when I would go 358 00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:13,700 S2: up to the Dallas area where he lived, I would 359 00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:15,780 S2: always go by to see him. And we just did 360 00:22:15,780 --> 00:22:18,980 S2: the best we could to interact at whatever level that 361 00:22:18,980 --> 00:22:20,780 S2: he was capable of interacting. 362 00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:24,980 S1: What did this do to your relationship with your mom? 363 00:22:27,180 --> 00:22:31,410 S2: Well, um, my mom passed away from a brain aneurysm 364 00:22:31,410 --> 00:22:39,090 S2: when I was 24, so her passing away then was 365 00:22:39,090 --> 00:22:43,450 S2: really upsetting and painful because I really felt cared about 366 00:22:43,450 --> 00:22:45,609 S2: by my mom. But what it did is it gave 367 00:22:45,609 --> 00:22:49,690 S2: me a renewed appreciation for the fact that my mom 368 00:22:49,970 --> 00:22:56,210 S2: was the more emotionally intelligent parent and was the one 369 00:22:56,210 --> 00:22:59,410 S2: that I didn't have to ask, you know, to come 370 00:22:59,450 --> 00:23:04,649 S2: my way for interaction or conversations or the emotional needs 371 00:23:04,650 --> 00:23:08,130 S2: that I had as her son. So I had a 372 00:23:08,130 --> 00:23:12,689 S2: new a renewed appreciation for her level of functioning just 373 00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:17,449 S2: in a psychological, interpersonal sense. And then again, tried to 374 00:23:17,450 --> 00:23:21,210 S2: quit being so condemning and judgmental about my dad. 375 00:23:22,090 --> 00:23:24,690 S1: Do you think and I'm sorry to put you on 376 00:23:24,690 --> 00:23:27,250 S1: the couch here, Chris, because I'm really interested in this. 377 00:23:27,690 --> 00:23:31,450 S1: Do you think that you became a psychologist? You study. 378 00:23:31,490 --> 00:23:34,450 S1: You just poured yourself into this. You became a Christian 379 00:23:34,450 --> 00:23:38,489 S1: by the time you started getting interested in psychology. But 380 00:23:38,490 --> 00:23:40,929 S1: do you think he became a psychologist because of the 381 00:23:40,930 --> 00:23:42,370 S1: situation with your dad? 382 00:23:43,410 --> 00:23:48,210 S2: I think to some degree, um, you know, um, not 383 00:23:48,210 --> 00:23:53,889 S2: everybody who goes through any kind of painful upbringing turns 384 00:23:53,890 --> 00:23:57,530 S2: into a psychologist. So I do think I was just 385 00:23:57,530 --> 00:24:01,330 S2: kind of wired by God to be a people helper. Uh, 386 00:24:01,330 --> 00:24:03,850 S2: I grew up being, uh, what you might call a 387 00:24:03,850 --> 00:24:09,330 S2: more sensitive empath kind of person to where people's emotional 388 00:24:09,330 --> 00:24:14,210 S2: struggles really affected me. I really felt for them, and 389 00:24:14,250 --> 00:24:19,530 S2: it always got my attention. And I think that personality 390 00:24:19,530 --> 00:24:23,370 S2: in me was a big piece of it. But I 391 00:24:23,369 --> 00:24:27,410 S2: think growing up in a family where the closeness was 392 00:24:27,410 --> 00:24:32,690 S2: not all that much. Kind of sped that up in me. 393 00:24:32,730 --> 00:24:36,929 S2: Made me interested in figuring out more of it as 394 00:24:36,930 --> 00:24:40,530 S2: to why do people not bond, and how can they 395 00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:43,410 S2: do a better job of bonding with each other? Yeah. 396 00:24:43,770 --> 00:24:46,850 S1: Chris Thurmond is with us today. I really and I 397 00:24:46,890 --> 00:24:48,729 S1: said at the beginning of the program, I think the 398 00:24:48,730 --> 00:24:51,410 S1: light bulb is going to go off. It went off 399 00:24:51,410 --> 00:24:56,290 S1: for me for the fifth principle when he talks about 400 00:24:56,290 --> 00:25:01,850 S1: listening wholeheartedly and that Jesus did this, and he wants 401 00:25:01,850 --> 00:25:04,889 S1: you and me to be able to do that as well. 402 00:25:05,170 --> 00:25:08,250 S1: And a new thought sparked, and I'll tell you what 403 00:25:08,250 --> 00:25:10,490 S1: that is, but I want to open the phone lines 404 00:25:10,490 --> 00:25:15,690 S1: to if if you agree with Chris Thurman that, uh, 405 00:25:15,810 --> 00:25:22,170 S1: this can inform your life on such a depth of emotion, 406 00:25:22,210 --> 00:25:27,320 S1: emotional level that looking at how Jesus interacted with other 407 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,040 S1: people and showed us this way that that can have 408 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,240 S1: a big impact on your life. I'd love to hear 409 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:43,720 S1: your question or comment. Eight. 775483675. Is our number (877) 548-3675. 410 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,400 S1: Chris Thurman, author of The Way of the soul. More 411 00:25:46,400 --> 00:26:01,280 S1: with him straight ahead on Moody Radio. If you want 412 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,160 S1: to be more like Jesus, listen to Chris Thurman. Doctor 413 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,320 S1: Chris Thurman is our guest today. He's written the why 414 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,680 S1: of the soul becoming more like Christ. And he says 415 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,480 S1: the book is about choosing the path of psychological health 416 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,480 S1: based on the life of Jesus so we can bring 417 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,840 S1: greater glory to God and so he can restore our 418 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,680 S1: souls to health. So that's kind of the flyover and 419 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,280 S1: the 12 principles. We're talking about some of those. But 420 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,720 S1: I again, just a bigger question for you, Chris. The 421 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,920 S1: point that you're making is God wants to transform our lives. 422 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,600 S1: He wants to change us from the inside out and 423 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,000 S1: do a work that we can't do on our own. 424 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,560 S1: But you and I have a responsibility to cooperate with 425 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,160 S1: him in that process. AM I getting it? 426 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,080 S2: Yes, absolutely. We, um. God's not going to yank us 427 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,119 S2: kicking and screaming into mental health, so we have to. 428 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,080 S2: He does his part and we have to do ours. 429 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,119 S2: So it's a real important dance that we're in with 430 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,000 S2: God about our own psychological health. 431 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,119 S1: Talk about Jesus and how he listened. Because the principle 432 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,240 S1: is listen wholeheartedly. Unpack that for me. 433 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:24,950 S2: Well, another feature I think, of psychological health is the 434 00:27:24,950 --> 00:27:28,670 S2: capacity to listen. And I'm not talking about, you know, 435 00:27:28,710 --> 00:27:32,590 S2: just hearing the words. I'm talking about listening with what 436 00:27:32,590 --> 00:27:35,950 S2: we used to call the third ear, which is the 437 00:27:36,510 --> 00:27:40,750 S2: ear that can hear the deeper levels of meaning and 438 00:27:42,030 --> 00:27:49,110 S2: tone and underlying things that clients or people are not saying. Uh, 439 00:27:49,109 --> 00:27:51,869 S2: and when I look at the life of Christ, I just, 440 00:27:51,910 --> 00:27:54,710 S2: you know, it's like, oh, how these people that he 441 00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:58,389 S2: ran into must have felt like he listened in a 442 00:27:58,390 --> 00:28:02,550 S2: way that was just soul rattling to them. You know, 443 00:28:02,590 --> 00:28:05,710 S2: the woman at the well, uh, you know, he's listening 444 00:28:05,710 --> 00:28:10,909 S2: at a level that she had never gotten from anybody. And, uh, 445 00:28:10,910 --> 00:28:15,830 S2: I'm sure it just really, uh, triggered, you know, her 446 00:28:15,869 --> 00:28:21,389 S2: soul as to this person is really giving me his full, 447 00:28:21,430 --> 00:28:26,550 S2: undivided attention. And that's what I mean by listening wholeheartedly, 448 00:28:26,550 --> 00:28:28,910 S2: is if we're going to be like the Lord, we've 449 00:28:28,910 --> 00:28:33,030 S2: got to become better listeners than we are. And most 450 00:28:33,030 --> 00:28:36,470 S2: people are prone to, you know, they're not really listening. 451 00:28:36,470 --> 00:28:38,830 S2: They're just waiting for you to stop talking so that 452 00:28:38,830 --> 00:28:40,430 S2: they can say what they want to. 453 00:28:40,710 --> 00:28:43,190 S1: Yeah. Which is, which is, you know, for, for a 454 00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:45,670 S1: person who interviews, you know, it's like, here's my next question. 455 00:28:45,670 --> 00:28:48,630 S1: I'm waiting for you. No, you're exactly right. And, and 456 00:28:48,630 --> 00:28:52,590 S1: I think when you have felt that when, when you 457 00:28:52,590 --> 00:28:56,190 S1: have been in a situation where somebody has not just 458 00:28:56,190 --> 00:28:59,670 S1: heard what you said and can tell you, you know, 459 00:28:59,710 --> 00:29:03,430 S1: delineate what it was that you said or you want what, what, 460 00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:06,550 S1: what your problem is, but then can go to that 461 00:29:06,550 --> 00:29:11,030 S1: next level, that deeper level where you feel like they 462 00:29:11,070 --> 00:29:15,150 S1: saw you, they, they heard you, they, they know you 463 00:29:15,550 --> 00:29:19,420 S1: on a deeper level simply by listening to what you're saying. 464 00:29:20,060 --> 00:29:23,140 S1: That's life changing. Has that ever happened to you? 465 00:29:24,740 --> 00:29:28,380 S2: I have definitely had my moments where I felt like 466 00:29:28,380 --> 00:29:33,220 S2: somebody listened on that level. And it is, you know, 467 00:29:33,260 --> 00:29:39,420 S2: it's just transformational when you feel like somebody genuinely cares 468 00:29:39,420 --> 00:29:43,500 S2: about me and wants to get to know me. Uh, 469 00:29:43,540 --> 00:29:46,460 S2: they don't want to just assume anything about me. They 470 00:29:46,460 --> 00:29:49,900 S2: want to find out who I am. And, um, yeah, 471 00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:53,780 S2: that's happened throughout my life. And, uh, when you're training 472 00:29:53,780 --> 00:29:58,060 S2: to become a psychologist, you know, you're around a lot of, uh, 473 00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:02,380 S2: professors and fellow students that are, you know, better able 474 00:30:02,380 --> 00:30:04,780 S2: to do that. And so you get exposed to a 475 00:30:04,780 --> 00:30:08,060 S2: higher level of listening when you're in your training program. 476 00:30:08,260 --> 00:30:10,780 S1: How do you just, you don't have to go through 477 00:30:10,780 --> 00:30:14,500 S1: 11 years to do this, though. How do you exercise 478 00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:18,900 S1: that muscle of listening so that you do get to 479 00:30:18,980 --> 00:30:21,420 S1: the deeper level is that can you give me a 480 00:30:21,420 --> 00:30:22,300 S1: class on it? 481 00:30:24,220 --> 00:30:28,260 S2: I wish I could. Um, I just, you know, I 482 00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:33,740 S2: think that the starting point for a deeper ability to 483 00:30:33,780 --> 00:30:38,780 S2: listen is the biblical notion of die to self. Uh, 484 00:30:38,780 --> 00:30:41,340 S2: that's not Scripture saying that you're not supposed to have 485 00:30:41,340 --> 00:30:44,900 S2: a self. It just means, you know, can you put 486 00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:49,460 S2: yourself on the back burner better? Can you not make 487 00:30:49,460 --> 00:30:52,660 S2: it about you? Can you really just let it be 488 00:30:52,660 --> 00:30:56,780 S2: about the person who's trying to express their heart? And 489 00:30:56,780 --> 00:31:01,260 S2: can you get better at that discipline, if you will, 490 00:31:01,420 --> 00:31:06,580 S2: of putting yourself in, in the background and letting the 491 00:31:06,580 --> 00:31:10,540 S2: person talking be in the foreground and just get better 492 00:31:10,540 --> 00:31:15,020 S2: at listening with your ears and your heart and get 493 00:31:15,020 --> 00:31:18,090 S2: better at communicating what you're hearing to the other person 494 00:31:18,090 --> 00:31:21,130 S2: so that they can know that's exactly what you were doing. 495 00:31:21,610 --> 00:31:24,810 S1: And I think part of that is coming instead of, 496 00:31:25,010 --> 00:31:27,210 S1: you know, putting your $0.02 in and well, here's what 497 00:31:27,210 --> 00:31:31,370 S1: I think about that. Uh, just asking. Tell me more 498 00:31:31,370 --> 00:31:35,290 S1: about that. Just, you know, just that. Tell me, tell 499 00:31:35,290 --> 00:31:38,610 S1: me more about why do you feel that way? And listening. 500 00:31:38,650 --> 00:31:43,330 S2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have a lot of phrases in counseling, 501 00:31:43,330 --> 00:31:45,570 S2: and one of them is people won't care how much 502 00:31:45,570 --> 00:31:50,170 S2: you know until they know how much you care. And 503 00:31:50,170 --> 00:31:52,610 S2: people can't know how much you care if you're not 504 00:31:52,610 --> 00:31:56,850 S2: listening and communicating back to them the deeper things that 505 00:31:56,850 --> 00:32:01,050 S2: you're hearing. So in every human relationship, if you're going 506 00:32:01,090 --> 00:32:04,969 S2: to communicate that you genuinely love somebody, you've got to 507 00:32:04,970 --> 00:32:06,330 S2: become a good listener. 508 00:32:06,970 --> 00:32:09,810 S1: Well, here's the other thing about Jesus. He he wasn't 509 00:32:09,810 --> 00:32:12,210 S1: on his phone. Of course, he didn't have a phone, 510 00:32:12,410 --> 00:32:16,130 S1: but he wasn't distracted. He wasn't. I don't picture Jesus 511 00:32:16,450 --> 00:32:19,570 S1: looking past the rich young ruler at somebody who is 512 00:32:19,570 --> 00:32:22,010 S1: more important. You know, in the crowd back there and 513 00:32:22,010 --> 00:32:24,450 S1: trying to trying to hurry it along. It's like, no, 514 00:32:24,730 --> 00:32:28,130 S1: right here, this person. And if and we can have 515 00:32:28,130 --> 00:32:31,730 S1: that that same mindset in prayer, it's like, God, you know, 516 00:32:31,770 --> 00:32:35,050 S1: you're running the universe. And here's my problem with, you know, 517 00:32:35,090 --> 00:32:38,970 S1: my petty little problems. And if we view God. That's, 518 00:32:38,970 --> 00:32:43,450 S1: that's believing a lie. We're view. We're viewing God as we, 519 00:32:43,490 --> 00:32:45,570 S1: we think of ourselves. Right? 520 00:32:46,130 --> 00:32:50,650 S2: Right. Yeah. We're prone to project onto God that he 521 00:32:50,930 --> 00:32:54,690 S2: is too busy to care. He's too distracted to care 522 00:32:55,210 --> 00:32:57,730 S2: that he's on his own version of a cell phone 523 00:32:57,730 --> 00:33:01,370 S2: all the time, and he's not going to take our call. Uh, 524 00:33:01,370 --> 00:33:04,810 S2: and it's just nonsense. It's us not seeing God for 525 00:33:04,810 --> 00:33:07,730 S2: who he really is. And at the heart of God 526 00:33:07,730 --> 00:33:12,090 S2: is agape, a kind of love that just is so 527 00:33:12,130 --> 00:33:16,880 S2: much more than any other kind of love available to us. 528 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,960 S2: And part of his love, part of his agape was 529 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,600 S2: you have my full, undivided attention. I'm all powerful, all knowing, 530 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,080 S2: and everywhere at once. And I have the time. And 531 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,920 S2: I'm not just distracted by the 4 billion other things 532 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,000 S2: I'm doing every day. 533 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,920 S1: Yeah, I mentioned before the break I had a spark 534 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,200 S1: of an idea, and I want to go into that, 535 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,280 S1: but I see Tammy on the line and I really 536 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,920 S1: want to get to her call. Chris Thurman is with us. 537 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,000 S1: The way of the soul is our featured resource. Chris 538 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,240 S1: Fabry live.org. Tammy, why did you call today? 539 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,800 S3: Hi. Thank you for having me on. Well, I usually 540 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,720 S3: listen to your station and I heard Chris sermon talking 541 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,320 S3: about his relationship with his dad. And it struck a 542 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:09,919 S3: nerve because my ex-husband, his father, was a cop and 543 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,040 S3: he had two other jobs because they had five kids 544 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:19,200 S3: and mom stayed home and he unintentionally ignored my ex-husband 545 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:24,040 S3: growing up. And in turn, when we married and started 546 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,280 S3: a family, we kind of touched on it. And I thought, well, 547 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,399 S3: you're not going to do that to your kids. And 548 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,439 S3: he was like, no, I'm not. Well, it turned out 549 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,319 S3: that he did. He did do that, too. I have 550 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,520 S3: a boy and a girl, and my girl is okay 551 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,439 S3: with it, you know. But my son is I could 552 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,359 S3: see he's 27 and he's resentful because a lot of 553 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,000 S3: his friends, parents, you know, fathers spend time with them 554 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,400 S3: and talk to them about all kinds of stuff. And 555 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,000 S3: my ex just never did. Unless, like I said to him, hey, 556 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,480 S3: can you take the kids here? Or can you hang 557 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,520 S3: out with, you know, our son or. And I don't 558 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,560 S3: think my ex did it intentional. I could see that 559 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,000 S3: he also had some issues because he was married before me, 560 00:35:10,630 --> 00:35:13,189 S3: and I think that was part of the problem. But 561 00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:19,190 S3: my son now has this like resentment and he, he's, 562 00:35:19,230 --> 00:35:21,790 S3: he doesn't even want to go to my ex. Like 563 00:35:21,790 --> 00:35:24,469 S3: they still live together and he won't even call. I'll 564 00:35:24,469 --> 00:35:26,230 S3: say to him, just go and ask dad to go 565 00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:29,750 S3: to dinner. And now and then he'll do that. But he. 566 00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:32,589 S3: I could see the hurt and I'm trying, as the 567 00:35:32,590 --> 00:35:36,790 S3: mom to always say, you know, to encourage him or 568 00:35:36,790 --> 00:35:40,270 S3: to help him. I'm saved. And both my kids were 569 00:35:40,270 --> 00:35:42,989 S3: raised Catholic, so they believe in Jesus, but they're not 570 00:35:43,030 --> 00:35:45,950 S3: where I'm at. And it's very. 571 00:35:46,110 --> 00:35:48,350 S4: Does this. Let me ask you this. Does this leak. 572 00:35:48,350 --> 00:35:52,230 S1: Over onto you? Does his anger at his dad and 573 00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:56,830 S1: the invisibility. What Chris was saying. Does that leak over 574 00:35:56,870 --> 00:35:59,110 S1: onto you at all? 575 00:36:00,630 --> 00:36:02,470 S3: Well, it makes me angry. 576 00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:05,310 S4: Makes you angry. But. But what about your son? 577 00:36:05,310 --> 00:36:07,390 S1: Does your son feel angry at you? 578 00:36:09,750 --> 00:36:13,510 S3: No he doesn't. And at one point he said to me, mom, 579 00:36:14,070 --> 00:36:16,750 S3: you did everything you had to do. I need a 580 00:36:16,750 --> 00:36:19,150 S3: dad to do what he needed to do. 581 00:36:19,630 --> 00:36:20,070 S4: Wow. 582 00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:24,109 S1: There's a okay, Chris, come in here because I think 583 00:36:24,110 --> 00:36:27,230 S1: there's something going on. And I think you probably have 584 00:36:27,230 --> 00:36:31,190 S1: heard other situations kind of like this. And Tammy just 585 00:36:31,230 --> 00:36:33,669 S1: she wants to help, you know, she wants to help 586 00:36:33,670 --> 00:36:37,189 S1: people get get help and get healthy. What do you say? 587 00:36:37,230 --> 00:36:41,069 S2: Sure. Tammy, thank you for calling. I really appreciate you 588 00:36:41,110 --> 00:36:46,750 S2: doing that. Um, there's not the psychobabble anything, but there's 589 00:36:46,790 --> 00:36:53,350 S2: a real tendency for the generation generational drift of sin. Um, 590 00:36:53,710 --> 00:36:58,510 S2: people that are raised by parents in a way that 591 00:36:58,510 --> 00:37:03,190 S2: they then the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Um, 592 00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:09,350 S2: it saddens me to hear about, uh, your ex-husband's struggle 593 00:37:09,390 --> 00:37:14,469 S2: to connect, struggle to bond with his own son. It 594 00:37:14,510 --> 00:37:19,990 S2: hurts my heart that your son was understandably wounded by that. Um. 595 00:37:21,070 --> 00:37:24,230 S2: On your son's end, just like it was. Pardon me 596 00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:28,230 S2: on my end. We are commanded by God to forgive. 597 00:37:28,350 --> 00:37:31,110 S2: So we have to work on forgiveness whether the other 598 00:37:31,110 --> 00:37:35,870 S2: person ever comes back our way and says they're sorry 599 00:37:36,030 --> 00:37:39,070 S2: and tries to repair it. So I hope for him 600 00:37:39,070 --> 00:37:43,510 S2: that he'll learn more about how to forgive. Uh, and 601 00:37:43,510 --> 00:37:49,190 S2: not wait until his dad has, uh, overcome this more 602 00:37:49,190 --> 00:37:54,310 S2: distancing kind of, uh, style of interacting with him. So 603 00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:57,590 S2: all that to say, I'm, I'm sorry to hear about 604 00:37:57,590 --> 00:38:03,270 S2: this kind of relational generational damage. We have an expression 605 00:38:03,310 --> 00:38:07,339 S2: hurt people, hurt people. And like you said earlier, it's 606 00:38:07,340 --> 00:38:12,060 S2: not always intentional. It's not always malicious. It's just a 607 00:38:12,060 --> 00:38:17,420 S2: person acting out of their own personality, their own, uh, 608 00:38:17,420 --> 00:38:21,540 S2: the impact of their growing up years and then not 609 00:38:21,540 --> 00:38:25,140 S2: being helped, maybe even not seeking help for how to 610 00:38:25,180 --> 00:38:29,660 S2: overcome these flawed ways of interacting with their own kids. 611 00:38:30,420 --> 00:38:33,939 S1: But it sounds to me like Chris, uh, unless the 612 00:38:33,940 --> 00:38:38,299 S1: son has somebody to be able to walk alongside and 613 00:38:38,300 --> 00:38:41,060 S1: give him some of these helps, you know, some of 614 00:38:41,060 --> 00:38:45,180 S1: these principles. And he just on his own, you know, 615 00:38:45,219 --> 00:38:47,980 S1: trying to figure this out himself. His dad's not there. 616 00:38:48,020 --> 00:38:51,500 S1: His mom is helping out. But. And if he's doing 617 00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:54,940 S1: this alone, it's almost a mountain too high. Is there 618 00:38:54,940 --> 00:38:56,660 S1: hope for him? Is my question. 619 00:38:57,860 --> 00:39:02,900 S2: Well, there's hope in the sense that a person can 620 00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:07,299 S2: choose as an act of their will to work on 621 00:39:07,340 --> 00:39:10,540 S2: their own wounds. And you don't have to be a 622 00:39:10,540 --> 00:39:13,620 S2: Christian to do that. I've seen a lot of people 623 00:39:13,620 --> 00:39:17,620 S2: who are not followers of Christ make a lot of progress, uh, 624 00:39:17,660 --> 00:39:22,740 S2: out of a generational wounds. Uh, the point I'm trying 625 00:39:22,739 --> 00:39:27,380 S2: to make, but not too well, is he needs to 626 00:39:27,380 --> 00:39:32,660 S2: have somebody in his life who can, in a sense, uh, 627 00:39:33,140 --> 00:39:37,899 S2: provide that fathering that he never got, especially on an 628 00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:42,700 S2: emotional needs level and help him to see that it 629 00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:47,939 S2: was not about him. Uh, that it was, uh, understandable again, 630 00:39:47,940 --> 00:39:50,620 S2: that he felt hurt, but that he has to make 631 00:39:50,660 --> 00:39:54,259 S2: a decision as a 27 year old or a young adult. 632 00:39:54,580 --> 00:39:58,140 S2: Are you going to let that be? Uh, you know, 633 00:39:58,420 --> 00:40:01,060 S2: what marks your life? Or are you going to make 634 00:40:01,060 --> 00:40:04,609 S2: a decision to go a new direction and learn to 635 00:40:04,610 --> 00:40:08,330 S2: forgive and keep extending the olive branch and see if 636 00:40:08,330 --> 00:40:10,770 S2: your dad will take it and just have the best 637 00:40:10,770 --> 00:40:14,650 S2: relationship with him that you can, while getting other adults 638 00:40:14,650 --> 00:40:17,290 S2: in your life that can do some fathering and some 639 00:40:17,290 --> 00:40:18,370 S2: mentoring for you. 640 00:40:19,210 --> 00:40:22,490 S1: Tammy, I'm really glad you called today because you're calling 641 00:40:22,489 --> 00:40:25,850 S1: for other people, I think, who are in some of 642 00:40:25,850 --> 00:40:30,370 S1: the same situations. So thank you for being vulnerable with that. Again, 643 00:40:30,410 --> 00:40:34,130 S1: the way of the Soul Becoming More like Christ is 644 00:40:34,130 --> 00:40:37,129 S1: written by Doctor Chris Thurman. It's our featured resource at 645 00:40:37,130 --> 00:40:43,049 S1: Chris Fabry live.org. Chris Fabry live.org. Our remaining moments with 646 00:40:43,050 --> 00:40:57,810 S1: Chris straight ahead on Moody Radio. Doctor Chris Thurman is 647 00:40:57,810 --> 00:41:00,210 S1: our guest today. If you go to Chris Fabry live.org, 648 00:41:00,250 --> 00:41:03,330 S1: you'll see the new book, The Way of the soul. 649 00:41:03,810 --> 00:41:08,570 S1: Featured resource right there. Chris fabriclive.org. Okay. In the section 650 00:41:08,570 --> 00:41:12,410 S1: where you're talking about listening, there is a case of 651 00:41:12,410 --> 00:41:16,089 S1: Cheryl and Will, and they are going at it at 652 00:41:16,090 --> 00:41:19,450 S1: the in the marriage counselor's office, just back and forth. 653 00:41:19,489 --> 00:41:22,250 S1: And they're arguing about this, that and the other thing. 654 00:41:22,930 --> 00:41:25,370 S1: And the counselor says, we're going to play the ruler. 655 00:41:25,410 --> 00:41:29,290 S1: Game six rules. When you have the ruler, it's your 656 00:41:29,290 --> 00:41:32,650 S1: turn to talk. And the other person can't say a word. Second, 657 00:41:33,010 --> 00:41:36,529 S1: you have to limit what you say to 15 words. Third, 658 00:41:36,770 --> 00:41:41,650 S1: you have to begin every sentence with I, not you. Fourth, 659 00:41:41,650 --> 00:41:44,250 S1: after you're finished talking, the person who was listening has 660 00:41:44,250 --> 00:41:47,490 S1: to say back to you in 15 words or less 661 00:41:47,489 --> 00:41:51,250 S1: what they heard you say. Then the person who was 662 00:41:51,570 --> 00:41:55,250 S1: talking gets to say whether that person who was listening 663 00:41:55,290 --> 00:41:59,169 S1: had heard them. And the sixth thing is, once they 664 00:41:59,170 --> 00:42:04,040 S1: feel they they're listened to and understood. Then it's their 665 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,919 S1: turn to say something. So they grab the ruler and 666 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,400 S1: you go back and forth and it's it's so fun 667 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,880 S1: because I can see, I can see myself in both 668 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,240 S1: of these people. But here's what I, I was thinking 669 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,040 S1: about as I read that. And that is in this 670 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:24,879 S1: ruler technique, what would happen in my life if we 671 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:30,440 S1: use that technique with God? What I heard God say was, 672 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,839 S1: you know, I look at the Bible again. I read 673 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,040 S1: what he says, and you give me everything that I want, 674 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,080 S1: and I go back and I think what I'm saying is, 675 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,680 S1: in my life and my spiritual life, I hang on 676 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,960 S1: to the ruler with God. I never let it. I 677 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,200 S1: read his word. I, you know, I study his word. 678 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,120 S1: I want to know what he has to say. I 679 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,400 S1: want to rightly divide it. But I'm hanging on to 680 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,200 S1: that ruler for so long. I'm not really willing to 681 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,480 S1: listen to what he's really saying. What do you think 682 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:04,080 S1: about that? 683 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:10,800 S2: I think that's just so good and insightful. It's almost like, uh, 684 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,320 S2: you know, even in our prayer lives, we kind of say, God, 685 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,799 S2: take a seat. You know, I've got a lot to 686 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,239 S2: tell you, and I want you to listen. And, uh, 687 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,160 S2: you know, we don't ever give the ruler back to 688 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,120 S2: him and do the listening side of prayer or the 689 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:31,000 S2: listening side of what he's telling us in scripture. So, uh, 690 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,120 S2: that would be a fascinating activity to do. And, uh, 691 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,760 S2: when I do it with couples in my office, it's 692 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:43,400 S2: just always very enlightening to them as to how little 693 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:48,760 S2: they can keep their verbalizations to under 15 words and 694 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,520 S2: how they cut each other off all the time. And 695 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,359 S2: they don't hear what God said, but they filter it 696 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,750 S2: through their own, you know, historical tapes and views of things. 697 00:43:58,790 --> 00:44:01,710 S2: So it's just an interesting activity for sure. 698 00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:02,550 S4: Well, the other. 699 00:44:02,950 --> 00:44:06,270 S1: Layer of that is the person who then would take 700 00:44:06,270 --> 00:44:11,190 S1: the ruler back and say what he said was and 701 00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:15,390 S1: you correct. The counselor corrects. No, no. Start the sentence 702 00:44:15,390 --> 00:44:19,190 S1: with what I heard you say was, because there is 703 00:44:19,190 --> 00:44:23,149 S1: a difference between what the person says and what the 704 00:44:23,150 --> 00:44:26,950 S1: recipient hears them say often, right? 705 00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:33,670 S2: Absolutely. Um, it's it's interesting, you know, the whole thing about, uh, 706 00:44:33,790 --> 00:44:37,469 S2: communication is just fascinating. It's like, well, I thought I 707 00:44:37,469 --> 00:44:40,990 S2: was saying this, but they heard me say that. And then, 708 00:44:41,310 --> 00:44:44,590 S2: you know, it's just very interesting to get people to 709 00:44:45,350 --> 00:44:50,230 S2: do this activity and get better at, um, keeping their 710 00:44:50,230 --> 00:44:53,910 S2: reaction to a certain number of words and then checking 711 00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:57,430 S2: it out. Hey, did you, was that a close approximation 712 00:44:57,430 --> 00:45:01,110 S2: of what you were saying? It's really transformative for a 713 00:45:01,110 --> 00:45:01,910 S2: lot of people. 714 00:45:02,630 --> 00:45:05,870 S1: Is that that whole chapter was worth it right there 715 00:45:05,870 --> 00:45:08,870 S1: to go through. And then there's this chapter on anger 716 00:45:09,190 --> 00:45:11,149 S1: that I really wanted to get to, and I'm mad 717 00:45:11,150 --> 00:45:15,029 S1: that we didn't. I'm just teasing. But the whole thing 718 00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:18,670 S1: about anger and the, and the emotion, the, the, the 719 00:45:18,710 --> 00:45:23,270 S1: culture that we are baked in and the algorithms that come. 720 00:45:23,310 --> 00:45:27,029 S1: I mean, I'm angry about the the Michigan game and 721 00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:29,029 S1: they put the second back on the clock, you know, 722 00:45:29,070 --> 00:45:31,230 S1: and the umpire that told the rookie to straighten his 723 00:45:31,230 --> 00:45:34,670 S1: hat and a million other stories that hit the nerve 724 00:45:34,670 --> 00:45:36,989 S1: of you need to be angry about this. You need 725 00:45:36,989 --> 00:45:39,990 S1: to get stirred up about this. And it's like, I 726 00:45:40,070 --> 00:45:43,950 S1: look at the the life of Jesus and I and 727 00:45:43,989 --> 00:45:47,069 S1: and I'm not picking sides in Michigan for anybody who's 728 00:45:47,070 --> 00:45:51,069 S1: listening to Michigan, but I look at the life of Jesus, 729 00:45:51,310 --> 00:45:55,500 S1: and he was not wrapped up with what everybody wanted 730 00:45:55,500 --> 00:46:00,140 S1: him to be angry about or the, the the baskets 731 00:46:00,140 --> 00:46:03,100 S1: that everybody else wanted him to put other people in, 732 00:46:03,140 --> 00:46:06,859 S1: in that basket. So, uh, it's a really, really eye 733 00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:10,379 S1: opening conversation. Chris, I'm glad you've written the book. Thank 734 00:46:10,380 --> 00:46:14,420 S1: you for spending the time doing it, being so self relevant, 735 00:46:14,420 --> 00:46:18,460 S1: revelatory here and come back and see us again real soon. Okay. 736 00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:21,540 S2: All right. Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate it. 737 00:46:22,020 --> 00:46:25,259 S1: Doctor. Chris Thurman The way of the soul is our 738 00:46:25,260 --> 00:46:28,580 S1: featured resource. If you go to Chris fabriclive.org, scroll down 739 00:46:28,580 --> 00:46:31,140 S1: or go through today's information. You'll see it right there. 740 00:46:31,620 --> 00:46:36,100 S1: The way of the soul becoming more like Christ. Boy, 741 00:46:36,100 --> 00:46:37,620 S1: that's what I want to be. I want to be 742 00:46:37,620 --> 00:46:41,260 S1: more like him and and he will make you more 743 00:46:41,260 --> 00:46:44,380 S1: like him if you let him. Chris Baby Live is 744 00:46:44,380 --> 00:46:48,260 S1: a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.