1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:05,960 S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond its cast 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:10,680 S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide. Overcome 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:15,440 S1: what seems impossible and live. As you never imagined. Start 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:16,880 S1: your morning with a laugh. 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:22,119 S2: Practical from the Bible. Tips and tricks to kill. Not tricks, 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:23,600 S2: but tips and tricks. 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,400 S3: Tips and tricks to kill. Tips and tricks. 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,400 S1: Delivering the truth daily. 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,280 S4: All of my attempts to, you know, prop myself up 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,760 S4: with achievement in good works. Well, God wasn't impressed by that. 11 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:38,239 S4: Even if other people were. 12 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,040 S2: The gospel changes everything. 13 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,519 S5: Freedom in Christ. Man, it's like that backpack of cement 14 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,440 S5: just falling to the ground. 15 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,920 S1: Now, from our call of Hope Studios, this is Carl 16 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,520 S1: and crew Ask the Experts week. 17 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,960 S6: This has been epic, and I'm not overstating it. I mean, 18 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,890 S6: the amount of content we have here that is transformational. 19 00:01:03,130 --> 00:01:06,410 S6: If you haven't heard the word, we've got three episodes 20 00:01:06,410 --> 00:01:11,009 S6: per day this whole week because of the experts that 21 00:01:11,010 --> 00:01:15,569 S6: we're bringing in. And wow, Ali, what else do you say, sister? 22 00:01:15,610 --> 00:01:17,930 S4: You know, I am so grateful for those of you 23 00:01:17,970 --> 00:01:21,009 S4: who have asked questions. We obviously have not been able 24 00:01:21,010 --> 00:01:23,650 S4: to get to all of them, but I think we 25 00:01:23,690 --> 00:01:25,930 S4: hit a lot of different angles. So even if we 26 00:01:25,930 --> 00:01:28,650 S4: didn't get to your question exactly, get the show cast 27 00:01:28,650 --> 00:01:32,170 S4: because there's a good chance we answered something similar texts 28 00:01:32,170 --> 00:01:35,650 S4: show to 805, 55, 78, 98. 29 00:01:35,690 --> 00:01:38,890 S6: Well, the beat goes on. Abdu Murray here new to me. 30 00:01:38,930 --> 00:01:42,370 S6: Ali was keeping him all to herself for the longest time. 31 00:01:42,370 --> 00:01:43,130 S6: And then when I. 32 00:01:44,330 --> 00:01:46,929 S4: As in we had him on twice when Carl was out. 33 00:01:47,290 --> 00:01:51,970 S6: Oh my goodness. Speaker author attorney who specializes in addressing 34 00:01:51,970 --> 00:01:57,850 S6: issues where religious faith and emerging cultural trends intersect and collide. 35 00:01:58,050 --> 00:02:00,300 S6: They're colliding everywhere, aren't they, Abdou? 36 00:02:00,780 --> 00:02:02,700 S7: They are indeed. Thanks for having me on, guys. I 37 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:03,580 S7: really appreciate it. 38 00:02:03,580 --> 00:02:05,260 S6: Really good to have you back. What are the big 39 00:02:05,260 --> 00:02:06,140 S6: issues today? 40 00:02:06,740 --> 00:02:10,940 S7: Well, the big issues today are almost daily changing. Um, uh, 41 00:02:10,940 --> 00:02:13,179 S7: in terms of where faith and culture collide. I mean, 42 00:02:13,220 --> 00:02:15,500 S7: the big pervasive issues right now, at least for the 43 00:02:15,500 --> 00:02:18,540 S7: past two years, have been the advent of AI and 44 00:02:18,540 --> 00:02:21,220 S7: where that's leading us in terms of understanding what it 45 00:02:21,220 --> 00:02:23,940 S7: means to be human and what it means to be 46 00:02:23,940 --> 00:02:25,940 S7: made in the image of God. And we're sort of 47 00:02:25,980 --> 00:02:28,380 S7: sort of losing a sense of that, because if the 48 00:02:28,380 --> 00:02:31,139 S7: machines can do what we do and they have no soul, 49 00:02:31,340 --> 00:02:34,140 S7: what does that say about us? Uh, also, of course, 50 00:02:34,139 --> 00:02:36,619 S7: the issues of identity. I mean, identity seems to be 51 00:02:36,620 --> 00:02:39,980 S7: the word that everyone talks about all the time across 52 00:02:39,980 --> 00:02:42,540 S7: the board. It's making news, it's making headlines. It made 53 00:02:42,540 --> 00:02:45,540 S7: news and headlines yesterday because of a Supreme Court ruling 54 00:02:46,020 --> 00:02:49,139 S7: on gender issues with regard to parents and what they 55 00:02:49,139 --> 00:02:53,540 S7: know and can't know, uh, from school systems. And, of course, 56 00:02:53,580 --> 00:02:56,500 S7: you know, world events. And what is the role of 57 00:02:56,500 --> 00:03:00,790 S7: the Christian in praying for our enemies and those who 58 00:03:00,790 --> 00:03:03,150 S7: persecute us in light of all that's going on around 59 00:03:03,150 --> 00:03:06,350 S7: the world. So there's no shortage of, uh, cultural issues 60 00:03:06,350 --> 00:03:08,790 S7: to have to talk about, and they seem to emerge daily. 61 00:03:08,790 --> 00:03:10,750 S7: The good news is, is that we have an unchanging 62 00:03:10,750 --> 00:03:13,830 S7: message that predicts all these things, even though the world 63 00:03:13,830 --> 00:03:14,790 S7: seems to be changing. 64 00:03:15,150 --> 00:03:17,269 S6: It seems to me like we got a tough recipe. 65 00:03:17,310 --> 00:03:20,630 S6: We've got spiritual ambiguity on the rise in the West, 66 00:03:20,630 --> 00:03:23,830 S6: and then you've got an AI platform that is, um, 67 00:03:24,150 --> 00:03:28,430 S6: spiritually ambiguous on steroids. That's a bad combo, isn't it, 68 00:03:28,470 --> 00:03:29,070 S6: my friend? 69 00:03:29,630 --> 00:03:32,829 S7: It really is. Because what when we do have a 70 00:03:32,830 --> 00:03:35,550 S7: sense in which people are returning to a sense of spirituality, 71 00:03:35,550 --> 00:03:38,870 S7: but there's also this dominant feature and culture, which is 72 00:03:38,870 --> 00:03:42,230 S7: the the culture of self making, uh, whether it's curating 73 00:03:42,230 --> 00:03:46,430 S7: your online, uh, persona or it's becoming an influencer, especially 74 00:03:46,430 --> 00:03:47,910 S7: for young people, when you ask them, what do you 75 00:03:47,910 --> 00:03:50,430 S7: want to be when you grow up? They say influencer. 76 00:03:50,590 --> 00:03:53,550 S7: And that leads to a sense of a curated and 77 00:03:53,550 --> 00:04:00,080 S7: a manufactured identity. Then along comes, uh, artificial intelligence platform, 78 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,880 S7: which basically says, you don't really have one. You're just 79 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,400 S7: a machine like me. Um, and, um, but you can 80 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,360 S7: create it if you want to, but you have to 81 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,960 S7: do it not through a spiritual means, but through a 82 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,040 S7: completely sort of artificial means. It's a it's a dangerous combination. 83 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:16,880 S7: And we're seeing the effects of it. The more the 84 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,520 S7: research is coming out, the more we're seeing that overreliance 85 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,080 S7: on technology to tell you what the world is like 86 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,679 S7: and to do your thinking for you. Uh, it's not 87 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,160 S7: resulting in the machines becoming more human like. It's resulting 88 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,200 S7: in the humans becoming more machine like. 89 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,920 S4: Abdu Murray, our guest expert. Uh, now, he has tackled 90 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:41,120 S4: complex issues in some pretty tough forums. He does Q&A forums, debates, 91 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:46,560 S4: dialogues at leading universities like Yale, Berkeley, MIT, and others 92 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,520 S4: around the world. I am going to. One of the 93 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,799 S4: things I love about your website, Abdu, is that you 94 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,820 S4: have these videos of these 20 of the most commonly 95 00:04:55,060 --> 00:04:58,580 S4: asked questions about the faith. So I'm going to pull 96 00:04:58,580 --> 00:05:00,979 S4: one from those to get us started and to kind 97 00:05:00,980 --> 00:05:03,180 S4: of help set the table for the kind of questions 98 00:05:03,180 --> 00:05:09,420 S4: that our folks can ask you. 805 55 7898 855 99 00:05:09,460 --> 00:05:13,620 S4: five 7898 let's start with this one. Is the Bible 100 00:05:13,660 --> 00:05:15,580 S4: morally outdated? 101 00:05:16,300 --> 00:05:18,500 S7: Yeah. And this is one of my favorite topics, actually, 102 00:05:18,500 --> 00:05:20,620 S7: to talk about, because I wrote a book called More 103 00:05:20,620 --> 00:05:24,179 S7: Than a White Man's Religion, where I pose the issue. 104 00:05:24,180 --> 00:05:26,780 S7: The more I see on schools, I see that the 105 00:05:26,779 --> 00:05:30,339 S7: university levels, they're not asking first, is the Bible true? 106 00:05:30,339 --> 00:05:33,260 S7: They're asking first. Is the Bible moral because they accuse 107 00:05:33,260 --> 00:05:37,700 S7: it of being sexist and racist and, uh, anything ending 108 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:42,380 S7: in the suffix phobia, you know, uh, transphobia, homophobia, that 109 00:05:42,380 --> 00:05:44,860 S7: kind of thing. Um, and the answer is no. In fact, 110 00:05:44,860 --> 00:05:46,859 S7: I would argue that the Bible is actually the cure 111 00:05:46,860 --> 00:05:49,420 S7: for the very things that's being blamed for. When you 112 00:05:49,420 --> 00:05:51,740 S7: look at the way, let's just take the racism and 113 00:05:51,740 --> 00:05:54,670 S7: ethnicism issue, Um, when you look at the way the 114 00:05:54,670 --> 00:05:58,190 S7: Bible actually describes the nation of Israel, oftentimes Israel is 115 00:05:58,190 --> 00:06:01,590 S7: used as an instrument of judgment by God for the 116 00:06:01,589 --> 00:06:04,950 S7: actions of the surrounding nations. In other words, God doesn't 117 00:06:04,950 --> 00:06:07,230 S7: judge them based on their skin color or based on 118 00:06:07,230 --> 00:06:12,630 S7: their location, or based on their accents or their food choices. Rather, 119 00:06:12,670 --> 00:06:17,190 S7: God judges them based on their on what they do morally, 120 00:06:17,350 --> 00:06:21,909 S7: which is child sacrifice and worshiping false gods, temple prostitution 121 00:06:21,910 --> 00:06:24,429 S7: and these things. And we know it's not race based, 122 00:06:24,430 --> 00:06:27,469 S7: because when Israel does the same things, God uses those 123 00:06:27,470 --> 00:06:32,470 S7: other nations as instruments of judgment to correct Israel, uh, herself. 124 00:06:32,589 --> 00:06:35,310 S7: So we see that God is no, no, no, no 125 00:06:35,310 --> 00:06:38,430 S7: one who favors people based on their ethnicity. In fact, 126 00:06:38,470 --> 00:06:40,830 S7: God judges people not based on their skin color, but 127 00:06:40,990 --> 00:06:43,229 S7: on the content of their character. And of course, that 128 00:06:43,230 --> 00:06:46,550 S7: sounds terribly familiar. That sounds like Martin Luther King who 129 00:06:46,550 --> 00:06:48,870 S7: did not pull that phrase out of the sky. Well, 130 00:06:48,870 --> 00:06:50,550 S7: I guess it came from the Bible. So he kind 131 00:06:50,589 --> 00:06:54,920 S7: of did. But, um. Uh, but it's the sentiment of equality, uh, 132 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:56,960 S7: right there and then, you see, if the if the 133 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,239 S7: Bible were racist and sexist, what you wouldn't see is 134 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:05,280 S7: women who are non-Jews being the heroes of stories. Yet 135 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,880 S7: you see in John chapter four, when Jesus encounters a 136 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,560 S7: Samaritan woman who is rejected by not only her own people, 137 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,600 S7: but of course, by, um, the animosity that existed between 138 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,080 S7: two ethnicities of the Jews and the Samaritans. Jesus uses 139 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,920 S7: a woman to become the first cross-cultural missionary, and she's 140 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:26,000 S7: wildly successful. And that is an amazing thing. And that's 141 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,280 S7: one story of but dozens. So right now in our culture, 142 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,640 S7: we're facing the issues of racial equality and all these 143 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,640 S7: kind of things and, uh, gender equality. And the Bible 144 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,640 S7: has been talking about this for 2000 years. So rather 145 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,440 S7: than be this kind of thing where we think of 146 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,400 S7: it as an outdated book, it's actually our eternal contemporary. 147 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,960 S7: It's ancient, yet it constantly speaks to our current cultural issues. 148 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,290 S4: Abdu Murray, our guest. I'll give you the number 800 149 00:07:51,330 --> 00:07:57,370 S4: 555 7898. If you have questions on faith, reason, culture, 150 00:07:57,370 --> 00:08:01,570 S4: world religions 800 555 7898. 151 00:08:01,890 --> 00:08:04,850 S6: Uh, do we live in a culture not just in 152 00:08:04,850 --> 00:08:08,970 S6: the West? I think predominantly more so here. Uh, it 153 00:08:08,970 --> 00:08:11,130 S6: seems that when I travel around the world and I 154 00:08:11,170 --> 00:08:14,370 S6: see people that don't have the means we have in 155 00:08:14,370 --> 00:08:18,290 S6: the West, I'm reminded that Jesus himself said, I've chosen 156 00:08:18,290 --> 00:08:20,050 S6: those who are poor in this world to be rich 157 00:08:20,090 --> 00:08:24,290 S6: in faith. It's it's a bizarre situation that we have. 158 00:08:24,330 --> 00:08:29,410 S6: We've got blame game on steroids. And my my question is, 159 00:08:29,810 --> 00:08:33,209 S6: I know that we need to look for justice, but 160 00:08:33,210 --> 00:08:38,969 S6: how important? I'm sharing my conviction here. Here's my conviction. 161 00:08:38,970 --> 00:08:42,130 S6: Rather than asking you to rubber stamp my conviction, you 162 00:08:42,130 --> 00:08:46,610 S6: tell me where I'm wrong. My conviction is that the 163 00:08:46,650 --> 00:08:52,179 S6: gospel has an innate nature of looking within oneself, not 164 00:08:52,179 --> 00:08:55,020 S6: the world around us. And when we lose that, we 165 00:08:55,020 --> 00:08:57,500 S6: lose a lot. Am I wrong? Abdou. 166 00:08:59,220 --> 00:09:01,740 S7: When we look within ourselves and not to the world, 167 00:09:01,780 --> 00:09:03,939 S7: we lose a lot. Or when we lose that idea. 168 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:07,180 S6: Yeah, when we lose the idea that the the the 169 00:09:07,340 --> 00:09:09,940 S6: greatest problem in our life is staring us in the 170 00:09:09,940 --> 00:09:13,100 S6: mirror in the morning and not someone else. We're better off, 171 00:09:13,140 --> 00:09:13,980 S6: aren't we, Abdou? 172 00:09:14,140 --> 00:09:17,260 S7: We we are. Um. And this is where I think 173 00:09:17,260 --> 00:09:19,939 S7: the gospel has this universal applicability. You know, I came 174 00:09:19,940 --> 00:09:24,260 S7: from a muslim background and a middle eastern, uh, ethnicity. 175 00:09:24,300 --> 00:09:26,740 S7: And so I come from an honor and shame culture 176 00:09:26,740 --> 00:09:30,740 S7: and an honor and shame culture is different than a Western, um, uh, 177 00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:33,420 S7: innocence and guilt culture in the sense that an honor 178 00:09:33,420 --> 00:09:36,260 S7: and shame culture is communal. Uh, we have the same morality. 179 00:09:36,300 --> 00:09:38,860 S7: We just enforce it communally. In other words, if I 180 00:09:38,860 --> 00:09:44,020 S7: do something wrong, I become someone shameful as opposed to 181 00:09:44,059 --> 00:09:46,980 S7: I've done something wrong. In the in the West, we 182 00:09:46,980 --> 00:09:50,590 S7: have an individualized culture, which is if I do something wrong, 183 00:09:50,590 --> 00:09:52,630 S7: I can look inwardly and I don't need someone else 184 00:09:52,630 --> 00:09:54,430 S7: to tell me. I look in the man in the mirror, 185 00:09:54,470 --> 00:09:58,150 S7: as it were. Um, and both have their beauties. Um, 186 00:09:58,350 --> 00:10:00,270 S7: because I do think there is this sense in which 187 00:10:00,270 --> 00:10:03,350 S7: the sin condition is something that's intensely personal, and when 188 00:10:03,350 --> 00:10:06,990 S7: we don't reckon with the sin condition, um, and see 189 00:10:06,990 --> 00:10:10,590 S7: the truth of our, uh, the, the condition with which 190 00:10:10,590 --> 00:10:13,390 S7: we are beset, then we can't affect the community in 191 00:10:13,390 --> 00:10:18,670 S7: a positive way. Um, however, um, we have to recognize 192 00:10:18,670 --> 00:10:21,230 S7: at the same time that our sin condition does have 193 00:10:21,230 --> 00:10:24,030 S7: a communal effect. So while we're looking for justice and 194 00:10:24,030 --> 00:10:29,390 S7: these kind of things, inequality all throughout society, it starts internally. Um, 195 00:10:29,429 --> 00:10:31,830 S7: and so the beauty of the gospel is, is that 196 00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:35,710 S7: it was presented to an honor and shame, Middle Eastern culture. 197 00:10:35,710 --> 00:10:39,350 S7: So it was communal and it talked about the societal 198 00:10:39,350 --> 00:10:43,150 S7: impacts of our sin, but it also presents itself in 199 00:10:43,150 --> 00:10:47,720 S7: an individualized way because our individual sin is being called 200 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,520 S7: out when the rich young ruler says, what must I 201 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:54,000 S7: do to attain eternal life? Jesus individualizes the answer. He says, 202 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,760 S7: there's one thing you lack. Not everybody, just you. And 203 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,080 S7: you need to sell everything you have and come, come 204 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,160 S7: follow me. Not because rich people are inherently bad and 205 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,319 S7: they have this thing that other people don't have, but 206 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,080 S7: because this guy relied on himself a little too much 207 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,920 S7: and Jesus needed to call out that guy. So he 208 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,760 S7: held up a mirror to that individual guy, and he 209 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,320 S7: did it in a communal culture. And the whole idea 210 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,840 S7: here is that when we face the sin internally, we 211 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,480 S7: can begin to have positive effect externally. But if we 212 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,800 S7: don't deal with the person we're looking at, well, then 213 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,440 S7: how can we ever actually affect the world in a 214 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,040 S7: positive way? In fact, more than that, when we don't 215 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,240 S7: look internally, we start to judge hypocritically. And that's a 216 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,439 S7: violation of when Jesus says, do not judge hypocritically, but 217 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,280 S7: when you judge, use a correct judgment. So over and 218 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,329 S7: over again, when we look internally and we lose that sense. 219 00:11:46,330 --> 00:11:48,929 S7: We start to judge other people as less than us. 220 00:11:48,929 --> 00:11:52,809 S7: And therefore there is an inequality. We judge their prejudices 221 00:11:52,809 --> 00:11:55,410 S7: and their inequalities, never dealing with the inequalities in our 222 00:11:55,410 --> 00:11:55,890 S7: own life. 223 00:11:56,170 --> 00:11:59,449 S4: Abdu Murray, our guest expert this hour taking your questions 224 00:11:59,450 --> 00:12:07,970 S4: on faith, reason, culture, World Religions 855 five 7898 855 225 00:12:08,010 --> 00:12:09,850 S4: five 7898. 226 00:12:10,690 --> 00:12:13,810 S1: Get your info from a source you can trust. It's 227 00:12:13,850 --> 00:12:16,410 S1: Ask the Experts week with Carl and crew. 228 00:12:16,730 --> 00:12:20,130 S6: It's Carl and crew. Ask the experts. One of our 229 00:12:20,130 --> 00:12:25,010 S6: favorites here, Abdu Murray. Uh, here's why this is so important. 230 00:12:25,010 --> 00:12:28,330 S6: When we're talking to world religion, we're talking ethics. We're 231 00:12:28,330 --> 00:12:32,170 S6: talking almost any topic where you've got this collision of 232 00:12:32,170 --> 00:12:36,130 S6: philosophies in our world today. If you've been aching to 233 00:12:36,170 --> 00:12:38,929 S6: have an answer to those kind of questions, tee them 234 00:12:38,929 --> 00:12:52,780 S6: up right now. 800 800 0555 7898 800 555 7898. Abdu, 235 00:12:52,820 --> 00:12:57,140 S6: a question I'm asking for a friend ala me. Here 236 00:12:57,140 --> 00:13:01,540 S6: we go. Um, Abdu, I had a friend when I 237 00:13:01,540 --> 00:13:03,860 S6: lived in South Africa for a year, had a ministry 238 00:13:03,860 --> 00:13:08,380 S6: to Muslims and he had an interesting approach. I don't 239 00:13:08,380 --> 00:13:10,100 S6: have a dog in this hunt at all. So I 240 00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:13,660 S6: want your honest opinion. You being raised in a muslim context. 241 00:13:14,140 --> 00:13:18,939 S6: He appealed that this God that these folks were praying 242 00:13:18,940 --> 00:13:23,459 S6: to in their naivety, or maybe in their Muslim in 243 00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:26,940 S6: name only, was really the one true and living God. 244 00:13:26,940 --> 00:13:30,860 S6: And he used that as an attempt of an evangelistic tool. 245 00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:34,660 S6: I've heard a lot of debate on this. So coming 246 00:13:34,660 --> 00:13:38,300 S6: from your you've got a perfect platform to speak to this. 247 00:13:38,620 --> 00:13:42,660 S6: Who is the God of the Muslim of Islam versus 248 00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:44,230 S6: the God of the scriptures. 249 00:13:44,750 --> 00:13:48,790 S7: Yeah. And this great question. And, uh, oftentimes I want 250 00:13:48,830 --> 00:13:51,309 S7: to make sure I approach this with a level of 251 00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:56,470 S7: tactical wisdom and not only, um, uh, biblical insight, but 252 00:13:56,510 --> 00:13:59,550 S7: of course, they feed each other, don't they? Um, and that's, uh, 253 00:13:59,550 --> 00:14:02,510 S7: when Paul says in Colossians chapter four, verse five, walk 254 00:14:02,510 --> 00:14:04,910 S7: in wisdom toward outsiders. So when we were talking to 255 00:14:04,950 --> 00:14:08,710 S7: a muslim, if you start talking about different gods, well, 256 00:14:08,750 --> 00:14:12,110 S7: because they fundamentally believe, because the Quran, their holy book, 257 00:14:12,110 --> 00:14:15,469 S7: says that Allah, which is just a name for God, 258 00:14:15,470 --> 00:14:19,350 S7: which means the God. In fact, most, uh, most Arab 259 00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:23,510 S7: Christians refer to God as Allah, uh, as well, not 260 00:14:23,510 --> 00:14:26,790 S7: just Muslims, because it means the God. They would say 261 00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:28,990 S7: that their god from the Bible. From the Quran, I 262 00:14:28,990 --> 00:14:33,270 S7: should say, um, uh, is uh, the only uncreated being 263 00:14:33,270 --> 00:14:36,110 S7: there is. Everything else is created. He's perfect. He's all knowing, 264 00:14:36,110 --> 00:14:40,070 S7: all powerful, all these things. He's the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael. 265 00:14:40,070 --> 00:14:42,490 S7: And on it goes. So they would say it's the 266 00:14:42,530 --> 00:14:48,490 S7: same line of, uh, the profits come from the same God. Um, now, 267 00:14:48,530 --> 00:14:52,170 S7: the issue, though, is that that God is described in 268 00:14:52,170 --> 00:14:57,090 S7: the Quran is very different in terms of his nature. 269 00:14:57,130 --> 00:15:00,050 S7: For example, God is not triune. It is a blasphemous 270 00:15:00,050 --> 00:15:02,290 S7: thing to say in Islam that God is one in 271 00:15:02,290 --> 00:15:05,770 S7: his nature and three in his persons, that he is incarnational. 272 00:15:05,770 --> 00:15:09,650 S7: He would never incarnate and limit himself in their words 273 00:15:09,810 --> 00:15:13,730 S7: to Jesus's body, and that would be blasphemous itself. And then, 274 00:15:13,770 --> 00:15:16,970 S7: my goodness, he would never die on a cross, because 275 00:15:17,290 --> 00:15:18,850 S7: to die at the hands of the very sinners you 276 00:15:18,890 --> 00:15:22,090 S7: created is an utterly shameful and weak thing. And God 277 00:15:22,090 --> 00:15:23,970 S7: is too great for that, because they say the phrase 278 00:15:24,010 --> 00:15:27,530 S7: Allahu Akbar. Um, so they would say that those things 279 00:15:27,530 --> 00:15:30,690 S7: are fundamentally different. So what we're doing is we're talking 280 00:15:30,690 --> 00:15:35,250 S7: about God, but we're having very different conceptions of who 281 00:15:35,290 --> 00:15:38,170 S7: and what that God is and what he's like. So 282 00:15:38,170 --> 00:15:42,340 S7: it's very different, the very things that I thought when 283 00:15:42,340 --> 00:15:46,220 S7: I was a muslim insulted God's greatness like the Trinity, 284 00:15:46,260 --> 00:15:49,740 S7: the incarnation and the cross. As I began to look 285 00:15:49,740 --> 00:15:53,500 S7: into these things over a nine year search of the philosophical, historical, 286 00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:57,460 S7: and scientific and other underpinnings of the various faiths, these 287 00:15:57,460 --> 00:16:00,780 S7: ideas of Trinity, incarnation, and cross, I thought they insulted 288 00:16:00,780 --> 00:16:05,580 S7: God's greatness. I've come to realize they actually demonstrate God's greatness. Wow. 289 00:16:05,620 --> 00:16:08,780 S7: So for so for example, the cross. If God is 290 00:16:08,780 --> 00:16:11,580 S7: truly the greatest possible being, and Muslims believe that, by 291 00:16:11,580 --> 00:16:14,780 S7: the way, they would say Allahu Akbar, God is greater. 292 00:16:15,340 --> 00:16:17,660 S7: He's the greatest possible being. But if God is the 293 00:16:17,660 --> 00:16:22,540 S7: greatest possible being, then he would express the greatest possible virtue, 294 00:16:22,700 --> 00:16:25,860 S7: which is love, in the greatest possible way. That just 295 00:16:25,860 --> 00:16:29,460 S7: stands to reason. And what is the greatest possible way 296 00:16:29,460 --> 00:16:32,540 S7: to express the greatest possible virtue with the greatest possible 297 00:16:32,540 --> 00:16:36,740 S7: way to express love is self-sacrifice. And Islam knows nothing 298 00:16:36,740 --> 00:16:41,070 S7: of that from the terms of God himself exhibiting that 299 00:16:41,070 --> 00:16:43,670 S7: greatest virtue. But we do it. And so God has 300 00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:45,790 S7: to do it better than we do, and we do 301 00:16:45,790 --> 00:16:47,910 S7: it for those who love us, but God does it 302 00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:50,910 S7: for those who hate him. Romans chapter five, verse eight. 303 00:16:50,950 --> 00:16:53,870 S7: And when I realized that, and then I saw that 304 00:16:53,870 --> 00:16:58,670 S7: whole philosophical argument encapsulated in just one verse, Romans chapter five, 305 00:16:58,670 --> 00:17:01,870 S7: verse eight. I thought, oh my goodness, this truly is 306 00:17:01,870 --> 00:17:04,750 S7: the Lord of language, the Lord of philosophy, the Lord 307 00:17:04,750 --> 00:17:07,230 S7: of love, and the Lord of sacrifice. And I gave 308 00:17:07,230 --> 00:17:07,950 S7: my life to him. 309 00:17:08,270 --> 00:17:13,190 S6: Oh, you know what, Abdou? That is the greatest witnessing 310 00:17:13,230 --> 00:17:16,710 S6: tool I've ever heard and I have. I have some 311 00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:22,149 S6: dear friends, neighbors that, uh, go winter in Pakistan and, uh, 312 00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:26,070 S6: they're restaurateurs, and they might even be listening right now. Um, 313 00:17:26,790 --> 00:17:29,910 S6: and I love them so much. And what a that 314 00:17:29,910 --> 00:17:33,190 S6: almost brings me to tears, bro. That's a powerful tool, 315 00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:33,869 S6: isn't it? 316 00:17:34,109 --> 00:17:36,389 S7: Well, it brought me to tears when I first realized it. 317 00:17:36,430 --> 00:17:39,240 S7: You know, I looked for nine years and I think 318 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,360 S7: this is an important thing we have to recognize. Is 319 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,040 S7: that what we're talking about, cultural issues or different religious 320 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,080 S7: issues or whatever it is, the way the Apostle Paul 321 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,080 S7: talks in Colossians chapter four is he says, make the 322 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,480 S7: best use of the time. Let your speech be gracious, 323 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,480 S7: seasoned with salt, so you may know how you ought 324 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,679 S7: to answer each person. Not each worldview, not each issue, 325 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,000 S7: not each controversy, but each person. So when Christians were 326 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,280 S7: engaging with me, they were asking essentially the effective ones 327 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,760 S7: were asking, what does Abdou care about? What are the 328 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,440 S7: things that he deeply longs for that are legitimate? And 329 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:14,680 S7: how does the gospel speak to it and answer it? 330 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:19,240 S7: And so I, as a muslim, wanted to, uh, follow 331 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,160 S7: a religion or follow a belief system that extolled God 332 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,679 S7: as the greatest possible being, uh, that's the center or 333 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,240 S7: center of Islam. And so various ways I saw that 334 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,200 S7: the gospel over time, despite my resistance to it, started 335 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,890 S7: to answer the things I needed to know were true. 336 00:18:37,090 --> 00:18:41,450 S7: It was Blaise Pascal who beautifully said that men despise 337 00:18:41,450 --> 00:18:43,409 S7: religion and they fear that it may be true. The 338 00:18:43,410 --> 00:18:45,650 S7: trick is to show them that religion is not contrary 339 00:18:45,650 --> 00:18:48,650 S7: to reason, but worthy of reverence and respect. And then 340 00:18:48,650 --> 00:18:52,170 S7: he says, make good people wish it were true, and 341 00:18:52,170 --> 00:18:55,210 S7: then show them that it is true. And for me, 342 00:18:55,210 --> 00:18:57,970 S7: that's the big, the big, the big mesh. You mesh 343 00:18:58,210 --> 00:19:02,490 S7: someone's legitimate desire with the rational belief. And the Bible 344 00:19:02,490 --> 00:19:03,850 S7: does exactly that. 345 00:19:04,170 --> 00:19:07,689 S6: Dude, this is. You have hit on the most salient 346 00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:13,609 S6: point of witness to almost any worldview other than a christocentric, 347 00:19:13,609 --> 00:19:18,449 S6: self-sacrificing Jesus, because they all aim at something like this, 348 00:19:18,450 --> 00:19:19,090 S6: don't they? 349 00:19:19,490 --> 00:19:22,610 S7: They do. You know, people often say things like, all 350 00:19:22,650 --> 00:19:26,210 S7: religions are essentially the same. They're only superficially different. But 351 00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:30,929 S7: the reality is they're exactly the opposite. They're superficially the same, but, um, 352 00:19:31,250 --> 00:19:34,609 S7: but but deeply, profoundly different. Except in this one way, 353 00:19:35,540 --> 00:19:39,619 S7: Every system of belief in some form or fashion has 354 00:19:39,619 --> 00:19:43,820 S7: a sense in which your. You strive to please God 355 00:19:43,820 --> 00:19:47,100 S7: or to attain enlightenment, or even if you're an atheist. 356 00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:51,139 S7: If we have enough education and resource distribution and these 357 00:19:51,140 --> 00:19:54,340 S7: kind of things will manufacture a Star Trek like existence 358 00:19:54,340 --> 00:19:56,419 S7: where we'll speak to machines and food will pop out. 359 00:19:56,660 --> 00:19:58,940 S7: You know, there's always this sense in which we are 360 00:19:58,980 --> 00:20:02,340 S7: our own savior. Um, in Islam, for example, if you 361 00:20:02,340 --> 00:20:04,939 S7: do enough good works, your cosmic scale is weighed to 362 00:20:04,980 --> 00:20:07,020 S7: the balance where your good outweighs your bad and you 363 00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:09,540 S7: go to heaven. You still need God's mercy. Of course, 364 00:20:09,540 --> 00:20:11,580 S7: the Quran says that over and over again, but even 365 00:20:11,580 --> 00:20:14,580 S7: that mercy is earned. In one sense, it is only 366 00:20:14,580 --> 00:20:18,380 S7: the Christian gospel in sharp distinction to every other worldview 367 00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:21,980 S7: that says, you cannot be good enough, we cannot be 368 00:20:21,980 --> 00:20:25,300 S7: the solution because we are in fact the problem, and 369 00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:27,740 S7: therefore we need someone who's not us to save us 370 00:20:27,740 --> 00:20:31,820 S7: from us. And even the Quran itself. The book of 371 00:20:31,820 --> 00:20:34,389 S7: the Muslims says if God were to judge humanity according 372 00:20:34,430 --> 00:20:36,429 S7: to what it deserves, he would not leave on the 373 00:20:36,430 --> 00:20:39,070 S7: back of the earth even one living thing. That's how 374 00:20:39,109 --> 00:20:43,270 S7: deep and pervasive and destructive our sin is. So if 375 00:20:43,270 --> 00:20:45,670 S7: that's how bad we are, how can we fix it? 376 00:20:45,710 --> 00:20:48,990 S7: We need God's mercy. Of course. But we need God's solution. 377 00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:52,830 S7: And the cross is the solution that satisfies God's justice 378 00:20:52,830 --> 00:20:54,390 S7: and his mercy at the same time. 379 00:20:54,430 --> 00:20:56,630 S6: Mohammed had a moment of clarity there. 380 00:20:57,150 --> 00:21:00,870 S7: Yeah. No, absolutely. And because he was influenced by by 381 00:21:00,869 --> 00:21:04,190 S7: Christians around him, and there were Christians who who were 382 00:21:04,190 --> 00:21:07,670 S7: in Arabia at the time of Muhammad's advent. So he 383 00:21:07,670 --> 00:21:10,670 S7: did have some level of influence there. And so I 384 00:21:10,670 --> 00:21:14,470 S7: think here's the thing. I think, uh, is that every 385 00:21:14,470 --> 00:21:18,070 S7: system of belief at some point or other recognizes and 386 00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:20,910 S7: this comes from a secular source, Stephen Prothero. He says 387 00:21:20,910 --> 00:21:23,390 S7: every system of belief recognizes that something is wrong with 388 00:21:23,390 --> 00:21:26,150 S7: the world and something wrong with humanity. But we all 389 00:21:26,150 --> 00:21:28,510 S7: get to different. We get to different finish lines. We 390 00:21:28,510 --> 00:21:31,389 S7: have the same starting line, different finish lines. It is 391 00:21:31,390 --> 00:21:34,920 S7: the Christian faith that says the starting line dictates how 392 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,480 S7: we get to the finish line. Because if something's wrong 393 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,320 S7: with us, then we need someone outside of us. Other 394 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,320 S7: systems of belief pay lip service to this. They do, 395 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,680 S7: but they don't get you all the way there because 396 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:50,320 S7: there's ultimately a humanistic central to those views. Um, and 397 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,159 S7: it's the Christian faith in its irony which says that 398 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,160 S7: human beings are sinful, yet we are beautifully and wonderfully 399 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:02,000 S7: made in God's image. And so the cross reconciles and 400 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:07,240 S7: bridges those two seemingly contradictory, but only paradoxical truths that 401 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,400 S7: we are made in God's image. And because we're infinitely valuable, 402 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,920 S7: made in his image, an infinite price needs to be 403 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,760 S7: paid to redeem us, and that's why God Himself pays 404 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,959 S7: it if we are infinitely valuable, but we try in 405 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,040 S7: our finitude to pay the price, the price will never 406 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,600 S7: be sufficient, because it's not infinite to satisfy our infinite 407 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,800 S7: value in God's infinite justice and mercy. But the cross 408 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,280 S7: is infinite because God Himself pays. 409 00:22:30,730 --> 00:22:31,130 S5: Wow. 410 00:22:31,770 --> 00:22:34,130 S4: Abdu Murray, our guest. And you're going. How can I 411 00:22:34,130 --> 00:22:37,250 S4: find out more about this guy? Text. Embrace. He is 412 00:22:37,250 --> 00:22:41,169 S4: the president of Embrace the truth. Just text embrace to 413 00:22:41,210 --> 00:22:49,690 S4: 800 555 7898. Embrace to 800 555 7898. Coming up, 414 00:22:49,690 --> 00:22:52,770 S4: we'll tackle this one. It's now common for people to 415 00:22:52,810 --> 00:22:56,449 S4: push back against the suggestion that there's a your truth. 416 00:22:56,450 --> 00:22:59,090 S4: My truth? That debate's been going on for a while. 417 00:22:59,090 --> 00:23:01,170 S4: But as we as you've been talking about in the 418 00:23:01,170 --> 00:23:05,970 S4: same vein, what's the most kind, loving, winsome way to 419 00:23:06,010 --> 00:23:09,490 S4: approach that question? Where it's not angry, it's not fist stomping, 420 00:23:09,490 --> 00:23:13,850 S4: but why can't we all have our own truth? Coming up. 421 00:23:15,490 --> 00:23:19,690 S1: You've got questions. They've got answers. It's Ask the Experts 422 00:23:19,730 --> 00:23:21,170 S1: week with curl and crew. 423 00:23:21,410 --> 00:23:24,570 S4: Well, right back to our Ask the Expert this hour, 424 00:23:24,609 --> 00:23:28,450 S4: Abdu Murray from Embrace the Truth. He is a speaker, author, attorney. 425 00:23:28,609 --> 00:23:35,510 S4: We're taking questions on faith, reason, culture, religion 800 555 7898. 426 00:23:35,550 --> 00:23:38,430 S4: You know, it can be tempting to be triggered or 427 00:23:38,430 --> 00:23:41,470 S4: get angry when somebody uses a version of your truth. 428 00:23:41,470 --> 00:23:46,070 S4: My truth? But what's the loving way to respond to 429 00:23:46,109 --> 00:23:49,510 S4: somebody who suggests that that's great, that what you believe 430 00:23:49,510 --> 00:23:53,109 S4: works for you? I believe something different that works for me. 431 00:23:53,150 --> 00:23:54,550 S4: Can't we all just get along? 432 00:23:55,670 --> 00:23:58,070 S7: Yeah. Well, the first thing I think in that kind 433 00:23:58,070 --> 00:24:01,110 S7: of objection is that, um, we don't believe things because 434 00:24:01,109 --> 00:24:04,550 S7: they work. Um, things aren't true because they work. But 435 00:24:04,550 --> 00:24:07,550 S7: oftentimes things that are true do, in fact, work. In 436 00:24:07,550 --> 00:24:10,590 S7: other words, it doesn't work because it doesn't. It's not 437 00:24:10,590 --> 00:24:13,830 S7: true because it works. It works because it's true. Um, now, 438 00:24:13,830 --> 00:24:17,429 S7: sometimes we have to realize that things that, uh, things 439 00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:20,830 S7: that are inconvenient are also true as well. So when 440 00:24:20,830 --> 00:24:23,550 S7: someone says my truth, you have your truth. I have 441 00:24:23,550 --> 00:24:26,430 S7: my truth. And let's settle it at that. Um, the 442 00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:29,440 S7: problem with that is that it sounds incredibly respectful. And 443 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:30,679 S7: so what I want to say is the way to 444 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,959 S7: lovingly approach this is to say, okay, I hear what 445 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,240 S7: you're trying to say. You're trying to be respectful of 446 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,480 S7: all points of view and give each point of view 447 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,879 S7: an equal weight. But the reality is, truth by definition, 448 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,560 S7: excludes that which is false. By definition, it's exclusive. So 449 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,960 S7: it can't actually be a cosmic vacuum where everything can 450 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,080 S7: be allowed. Because what if I say it's my truth 451 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,879 S7: that your truth is false? Now what? Because if my 452 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:55,800 S7: truth is that your truth is false, and your truth 453 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,959 S7: is that all truths are true. Mm. Now we're at 454 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,520 S7: an impasse. And so if you're going to respect my beliefs, 455 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,359 S7: then you have to respect my belief that your belief 456 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,199 S7: is wrong. Well, now, what do we do? Um. And 457 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,000 S7: so that can't be the way it goes. That is 458 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,200 S7: simply a recipe for chaos. Rather, I do what I 459 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,119 S7: call giving people the dignity of difference. I take someone 460 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,120 S7: else's point of view seriously enough to say I will 461 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,080 S7: agree or disagree based on what you say. So for example, um, 462 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,880 S7: it Christianity, we talked about this before Christianity. In Islam, um, 463 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,290 S7: there's many things that are similar in their belief systems, 464 00:25:29,290 --> 00:25:32,449 S7: but there's enough things that are fundamentally different that we 465 00:25:32,690 --> 00:25:36,450 S7: would say this. If Islam and Christianity were similar and 466 00:25:36,450 --> 00:25:39,410 S7: were equally true, then what was the point of the 467 00:25:39,410 --> 00:25:43,370 S7: advent of Islam in the first place? Because why would 468 00:25:43,369 --> 00:25:46,570 S7: you need a new a system of belief to correct? 469 00:25:46,690 --> 00:25:50,250 S7: You know, in their view, Christian belief, if the Christian 470 00:25:50,250 --> 00:25:52,450 S7: belief in the in the Muslim belief were essentially the same, 471 00:25:52,450 --> 00:25:54,290 S7: what was the point of Muhammad in the first place? 472 00:25:54,530 --> 00:25:56,490 S7: What was the point of the Quran in the first place? 473 00:25:56,570 --> 00:25:59,969 S7: So I would say that I take a muslim seriously 474 00:25:59,970 --> 00:26:03,010 S7: when I disagree with them. I'm taking 1400 years of 475 00:26:03,010 --> 00:26:07,689 S7: tradition and saying, I looked at your views. They're different 476 00:26:07,690 --> 00:26:11,250 S7: than my views. Now let's talk lovingly and caringly about 477 00:26:11,250 --> 00:26:13,930 S7: why they're different. Because to say they're all equally true 478 00:26:13,930 --> 00:26:15,570 S7: and I have my truth and you have your truth, 479 00:26:15,570 --> 00:26:21,250 S7: is to invalidate the claims of the various founders of 480 00:26:21,250 --> 00:26:24,609 S7: the most influential belief systems in the world. Hinduism and 481 00:26:24,609 --> 00:26:27,180 S7: Buddhism are a good example. They sound so similar because 482 00:26:27,180 --> 00:26:31,220 S7: they both believe in reincarnation and karma. But Buddha actually 483 00:26:31,260 --> 00:26:35,660 S7: started Buddhism as a Hindu in rejection of the fundamental 484 00:26:35,660 --> 00:26:38,300 S7: idea that the Hindu believes, which is that the self 485 00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:41,740 S7: is God. Buddha said there is no self. Well, you 486 00:26:41,740 --> 00:26:44,180 S7: can't get more different than that. And to say that 487 00:26:44,180 --> 00:26:47,260 S7: Buddhists and Hindus believe essentially the same thing is to 488 00:26:47,300 --> 00:26:51,379 S7: disrespect thousands of years of both Hindu and Buddhist traditions. 489 00:26:51,619 --> 00:26:54,660 S7: So rather than disrespect them, why don't we lovingly come 490 00:26:54,660 --> 00:26:56,740 S7: to a common to to a statement that we can 491 00:26:56,740 --> 00:27:00,820 S7: disagree agreeably and say, what is the truth? Not what 492 00:27:00,820 --> 00:27:04,220 S7: is my truth? Because what is my truth? Insults other 493 00:27:04,220 --> 00:27:06,180 S7: other faiths? It doesn't compliment them. 494 00:27:06,460 --> 00:27:09,859 S4: Abdu Murray, our guest expert this morning taking your questions 495 00:27:09,859 --> 00:27:15,620 S4: 805 55 7898. Alma. First time caller from Chicago. Thanks 496 00:27:15,619 --> 00:27:18,340 S4: for calling in. Give us your question for Abdu Murray. 497 00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:24,300 S8: Hi. Good morning. Um, yes, this question is for Abdu. Um, 498 00:27:24,510 --> 00:27:28,869 S8: you mentioned the culture, um, a little earlier, especially in 499 00:27:28,910 --> 00:27:32,190 S8: the biblical era. Um, as you, having been raised in 500 00:27:32,230 --> 00:27:35,470 S8: that same culture, did that in any way shape your 501 00:27:35,470 --> 00:27:37,790 S8: view of the Bible or the way you interpret it? 502 00:27:38,630 --> 00:27:41,630 S7: Oh, I'm so glad you asked, alma, because absolutely it did. 503 00:27:41,710 --> 00:27:43,669 S7: Let me give you an example of how the Bible 504 00:27:43,670 --> 00:27:46,390 S7: can really bake your noodle. If you really look at 505 00:27:46,390 --> 00:27:50,190 S7: the the belief systems that it's addressing at the same time. 506 00:27:50,190 --> 00:27:53,469 S7: So we have this parable in Matthew chapter 20, we 507 00:27:53,470 --> 00:27:56,510 S7: have this parable of the generous employer where Jesus says, 508 00:27:56,510 --> 00:27:58,990 S7: this is how God's sovereign grace works, is that there's 509 00:27:59,030 --> 00:28:01,270 S7: these guys who are out there who are day laborers. 510 00:28:01,270 --> 00:28:04,830 S7: They're looking for work that day. And then, uh, the, the, the, 511 00:28:04,990 --> 00:28:07,310 S7: the master of a vineyard who is the proxy for 512 00:28:07,310 --> 00:28:10,190 S7: God in this parable, goes out and says, hey, I'll 513 00:28:10,190 --> 00:28:13,390 S7: take you, you and you. They negotiate for a, um, 514 00:28:13,510 --> 00:28:17,310 S7: a denarius, uh, worth of work for that day. And 515 00:28:17,310 --> 00:28:18,750 S7: they say that's a fair wage. And they go and 516 00:28:18,750 --> 00:28:21,270 S7: they work in the vineyard for the whole day. Then 517 00:28:21,390 --> 00:28:24,000 S7: the master goes out a second time and a third time, 518 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,520 S7: and a fourth time, and a fifth time to hire 519 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,280 S7: these laborers. Now in back then, just as today, if 520 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,960 S7: you don't get hired in the morning, you're not going 521 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,359 S7: to get hired at all. So they go home in shame, 522 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,520 S7: in an honor and shame culture that they couldn't get 523 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,800 S7: their get a day's wage to provide for their families. 524 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,600 S7: But these guys stayed there. In fact, the master of 525 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,840 S7: the vineyard says, what are you still doing here? Why 526 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,160 S7: are you still here? And they said we had held 527 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,520 S7: out hope that someone would give us a day's work. 528 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,480 S7: So the master of the vineyard said, go work in 529 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,960 S7: my in my, in my vineyard for even an hour, 530 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,800 S7: and I'll give you a denarius. So the same amount 531 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,640 S7: of money he paid the guys who worked all day 532 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,320 S7: at the end of the parable, of course, the first guy, 533 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,400 S7: the last guys get paid first, so the last. So 534 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,960 S7: the first guy see it and they're outraged and they say, 535 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,920 S7: wait a minute, we worked all day. These guys worked 536 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,640 S7: one hour. You gave us the same amount of money. 537 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,840 S7: That's not fair. And what does the master of the 538 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,120 S7: vineyard say? The master of the vineyard. Who is God? 539 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,000 S7: In the parable he says, friend, can't I do with 540 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,090 S7: my money what I want? I've done you no wrong. 541 00:29:22,090 --> 00:29:24,770 S7: And didn't you agree for a denarius? It's about God's 542 00:29:24,770 --> 00:29:26,730 S7: sovereign grace. The last shall be first, and the first 543 00:29:26,730 --> 00:29:29,890 S7: shall be last. But here's the cool part. One. It 544 00:29:29,890 --> 00:29:32,890 S7: answers the question of God's sovereignty and human free will 545 00:29:32,890 --> 00:29:35,050 S7: that God can be sovereign. He can say, I will 546 00:29:35,050 --> 00:29:38,250 S7: give somebody a dollar or a denarius based on my 547 00:29:38,250 --> 00:29:42,050 S7: own sovereignty. But he says to those guys, and didn't 548 00:29:42,050 --> 00:29:46,730 S7: you agree for a denarius that's human free will? They 549 00:29:46,770 --> 00:29:49,730 S7: negotiated and they agreed of their own free will. So 550 00:29:49,730 --> 00:29:52,370 S7: God's sovereignty and human free will at the same time. 551 00:29:52,370 --> 00:29:55,850 S7: That's an that's an that's a sort of a thing 552 00:29:55,850 --> 00:29:57,770 S7: I get in the West a question I get in 553 00:29:57,770 --> 00:30:01,210 S7: the West. But what's cool is this I remember reading 554 00:30:01,210 --> 00:30:02,970 S7: this parable and someone shared it with me when I 555 00:30:02,970 --> 00:30:04,970 S7: was a muslim, and I thought, this is a terrible story, 556 00:30:04,970 --> 00:30:07,130 S7: it's so unfair. But then I saw my honor and 557 00:30:07,130 --> 00:30:10,970 S7: shame culture reflected in it. The guys who waited all 558 00:30:10,970 --> 00:30:14,570 S7: day for a job didn't want to go home in 559 00:30:14,570 --> 00:30:20,290 S7: shame and God, because of their faith, rewarded them with 560 00:30:20,460 --> 00:30:23,740 S7: a denarius the same day, same wage as a full 561 00:30:23,740 --> 00:30:27,540 S7: day's work, because their faith that God would redeem them 562 00:30:27,540 --> 00:30:30,500 S7: and save them from shame was credited as if it 563 00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:34,020 S7: was work. And that goes all the way back to Genesis, 564 00:30:34,020 --> 00:30:38,020 S7: where Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness, as if it 565 00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:40,780 S7: was work, for God's sake. And so you see the 566 00:30:40,780 --> 00:30:44,060 S7: Bible woven together. And when I saw that, I was 567 00:30:44,060 --> 00:30:46,780 S7: amazed that this Bible, which I thought was a white, 568 00:30:46,780 --> 00:30:51,660 S7: Western sort of individualistic book, actually speaks to my culture. 569 00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:54,860 S7: And that started so many questions for me about, oh 570 00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:58,180 S7: my goodness, maybe this Bible actually speaks to my people 571 00:30:58,180 --> 00:31:00,380 S7: as well as the West. And I often put it 572 00:31:00,380 --> 00:31:03,660 S7: this way Jesus has a passport with many stamps. 573 00:31:04,540 --> 00:31:08,020 S6: Oh, this is beautiful. Abdu Murray, our guests Ask the 574 00:31:08,020 --> 00:31:12,580 S6: Experts week. This is epic. If you've got questions, he's 575 00:31:12,580 --> 00:31:16,780 S6: got answers. 800, 555, 78, 98. Give us a call 576 00:31:16,780 --> 00:31:23,390 S6: or text right now. 800 Five. Five. Five. 78. 98. Abdou. 577 00:31:23,430 --> 00:31:27,430 S6: How many Muslims are like many Western Christians? I use 578 00:31:27,430 --> 00:31:30,470 S6: that in air quotes that are Muslim in name only 579 00:31:30,470 --> 00:31:33,990 S6: and really don't know theology. And they're just guided by 580 00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:35,270 S6: the cultural norms. 581 00:31:36,030 --> 00:31:39,150 S7: Oh, it's uh, it's just like every other faith system 582 00:31:39,150 --> 00:31:40,830 S7: and every other culture as well as that, you have 583 00:31:40,830 --> 00:31:45,510 S7: plenty of people who are Muslim in name only because, um, there's, uh, again, 584 00:31:45,550 --> 00:31:50,350 S7: that honor and shame culture dictates that they, um, identify 585 00:31:50,390 --> 00:31:55,790 S7: culturally or um, in terms of, uh, their society as Muslim, which, 586 00:31:55,830 --> 00:31:58,390 S7: which but they don't really know a deep sense of 587 00:31:58,430 --> 00:32:00,510 S7: their theology. There's a lot of them, I'd say even 588 00:32:00,550 --> 00:32:04,310 S7: probably the majority of most Muslims don't know their Quran. 589 00:32:04,510 --> 00:32:06,710 S7: They know a couple of verses, just like Christians know 590 00:32:06,710 --> 00:32:09,270 S7: a couple of verses that are that are pet verses 591 00:32:09,270 --> 00:32:13,270 S7: for them. The opening chapter of the Quran, the chapter 114, 592 00:32:13,270 --> 00:32:15,230 S7: which is a very short chapter of the Quran. They 593 00:32:15,230 --> 00:32:19,560 S7: know those by heart because they're required to. but, um. Uh, 594 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,760 S7: the deep theologies and some of the deep history, they 595 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,600 S7: don't really know. Um, and, uh, but they hear what 596 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,920 S7: they get, what they hear. So but they adhere to 597 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,960 S7: it because there's a cultural mandate to do so. Sam Solomon, 598 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,600 S7: himself a former Muslim, once put it this way. In 599 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,880 S7: the West, if you drew a square with a dot 600 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,280 S7: in the middle, the dot is religious identity and the 601 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,920 S7: square is you. In other words, your sense of individual 602 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,240 S7: identity dominates. But in the East and in the Middle East, 603 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,600 S7: it's exactly the opposite. The square that surrounds the dot 604 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,120 S7: is religious identity, and the dot is you. You're a 605 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,320 S7: small part of the full religious identity, which explains why 606 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,360 S7: Muslims who are nominal, who might, you know, be Muslim 607 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,600 S7: in name only, will engage with you in a sort 608 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,560 S7: of verbal death match over whether or not Christianity or 609 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,200 S7: Islam is true, even though they don't practice it, they 610 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,240 S7: don't pray the five daily prayers. They might fast Ramadan, 611 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,600 S7: which we're in the middle of, but, um, might not, uh, 612 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,180 S7: you know, fully understand or live out their faith. The 613 00:33:19,180 --> 00:33:22,340 S7: other 11 months of the year. But they would still 614 00:33:22,340 --> 00:33:24,980 S7: engage in this, in this, in this debate with you 615 00:33:24,980 --> 00:33:28,300 S7: because it's part of their identity. They have an obligation 616 00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:31,820 S7: to maintain it in an honor and shame culture. And 617 00:33:31,820 --> 00:33:33,660 S7: that's that's what the barriers can be so big no 618 00:33:33,660 --> 00:33:35,060 S7: matter what they know or don't know. 619 00:33:35,260 --> 00:33:37,700 S6: Is it harder to reach the dot or the square? 620 00:33:38,780 --> 00:33:43,940 S7: Wow. Uh, um, it really does depend, because sometimes I 621 00:33:43,940 --> 00:33:46,420 S7: have to convince people who claim to be Christians that 622 00:33:46,420 --> 00:33:49,180 S7: they're not, um, in order to, like, tell them this 623 00:33:49,180 --> 00:33:50,580 S7: is who Christ really is. And they. 624 00:33:50,580 --> 00:33:51,420 S6: Think men. 625 00:33:51,740 --> 00:33:54,380 S7: You know, and so sometimes the dot is really hard 626 00:33:54,380 --> 00:33:57,900 S7: to convert because the dot thinks they're the square. Um, uh, 627 00:33:58,060 --> 00:34:01,620 S7: but I think oftentimes it's hard to convince. It's hard 628 00:34:01,620 --> 00:34:06,580 S7: to convince the square, um, because there's not a rational 629 00:34:06,580 --> 00:34:10,700 S7: reason to attend to that religious system. It's a personal reason. 630 00:34:10,700 --> 00:34:14,780 S7: There's intense consequences. There are identity issues. If I stop 631 00:34:14,780 --> 00:34:17,550 S7: being a muslim, then who am I? And when you 632 00:34:17,550 --> 00:34:21,950 S7: change your religious system in an eastern Middle Eastern culture, um, 633 00:34:21,989 --> 00:34:23,910 S7: it is one of the greatest sins you can you 634 00:34:23,950 --> 00:34:26,029 S7: can commit for the culture. You might as well drop 635 00:34:26,030 --> 00:34:28,710 S7: a grenade into someone's living room. That's how much damage 636 00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:31,430 S7: is done. Oftentimes when they convert to a different system 637 00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:35,830 S7: of belief, including Christianity. So it isn't the intellectual issues, 638 00:34:35,830 --> 00:34:40,310 S7: it's the consequences of what people hold on to, uh, 639 00:34:40,310 --> 00:34:42,589 S7: that are often the real barriers. So my job as 640 00:34:42,590 --> 00:34:46,149 S7: an apologist is to remove the intellectual barriers so people 641 00:34:46,150 --> 00:34:48,790 S7: can see the real thing that's keeping them from becoming 642 00:34:48,790 --> 00:34:49,870 S7: a Christ follower. 643 00:34:50,150 --> 00:34:54,989 S4: Abdu Murray, our guest expert taking questions on faith, reason, culture, religion. 644 00:34:55,230 --> 00:34:59,070 S4: Oh boy, this is good grace. If you want more, 645 00:34:59,110 --> 00:35:07,470 S4: embrace to 800 555 7898 embrace to 800 555 7898. 646 00:35:07,469 --> 00:35:08,989 S4: Coming up, I'm going to tell you a couple of 647 00:35:08,989 --> 00:35:11,750 S4: text messages that come in. We'll get to both of 648 00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:14,960 S4: them if we have time. How do we reconcile? God 649 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,360 S4: is omnipresent, but hell is separation from God. We'll tackle 650 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,120 S4: that one. Plus, who are the descendants of Ishmael? More 651 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,520 S4: coming up here on Karl and crew. 652 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,520 S1: Get in the know with life's biggest questions. It's Ask 653 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,600 S1: the Experts week with Karl and crew. 654 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,000 S4: Our guest expert this morning, Abdul Murray, has been tackling 655 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,480 S4: questions on faith, reason, culture, religion. How about this one? 656 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,000 S4: Who are the descendants of Ishmael? 657 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,759 S7: Yeah. So, um, this kind of depends on who is 658 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,840 S7: responding to the question. Um, Muslims will say that they 659 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,759 S7: are that Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael, and it 660 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:53,520 S7: goes through, um, Hagar or Hagar, um, and her line, um, 661 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,760 S7: because she's Egyptian and, uh, they go through, uh, so 662 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,879 S7: a muslim would say that, um, because Ishmael is the 663 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,920 S7: father of the Arabs, as even is prophesied in Genesis 16, 664 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,240 S7: and all these things, a great nation comes from him. 665 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,720 S7: And so, because she's Egyptian, uh, Hagar is the Arabs 666 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,370 S7: come from that line, and therefore Muhammad as a prophet, 667 00:36:15,530 --> 00:36:19,450 S7: essentially is a prophet in the line of the great prophets, 668 00:36:19,450 --> 00:36:22,970 S7: including Ishmael's father Abraham. And so that is a sense 669 00:36:22,969 --> 00:36:27,410 S7: to legitimize Muhammad's office as prophet, even though he's an 670 00:36:27,410 --> 00:36:30,930 S7: Arab and outside the family of the Jews. Um, or 671 00:36:30,930 --> 00:36:33,569 S7: the Hebrews at that point. Uh, so that would be 672 00:36:33,570 --> 00:36:35,529 S7: that would be the claim. Now, whether or not this 673 00:36:35,530 --> 00:36:39,089 S7: is actually genetically proven or not is it's a matter 674 00:36:39,090 --> 00:36:41,810 S7: of great dispute. It really is. But here's the thing 675 00:36:41,810 --> 00:36:45,089 S7: that's interesting, just for our purposes and really quickly, is 676 00:36:45,090 --> 00:36:47,410 S7: that let's assume for a moment the Arabs are the 677 00:36:47,410 --> 00:36:52,490 S7: descendants of Ishmael, and that Islam in some way has 678 00:36:52,489 --> 00:36:55,490 S7: some kind of a root ethnically, let's say, because Islam 679 00:36:55,489 --> 00:37:00,370 S7: is an originally Arab religion. Um, let's assume that's true. 680 00:37:00,850 --> 00:37:03,810 S7: The the thing that's beautiful about this is that at 681 00:37:03,810 --> 00:37:08,810 S7: some point, Genesis actually describes the Ishmael and his progeny 682 00:37:08,850 --> 00:37:12,299 S7: as being free people who are at odds, it seems, 683 00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:15,219 S7: with the surrounding people around them, but really are free 684 00:37:15,219 --> 00:37:19,980 S7: because the because Hagar, their their mother, essentially as an Egyptian, 685 00:37:19,980 --> 00:37:24,180 S7: was bound as a slave or a servant to Sarah 686 00:37:24,219 --> 00:37:27,780 S7: before she had children and even after. So the promise 687 00:37:27,820 --> 00:37:30,260 S7: to Ishmael and his descendants is that you will be free, 688 00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:33,420 S7: not that you will be constantly in opposition, but opposition 689 00:37:33,420 --> 00:37:35,819 S7: happens because of freedom in distinction to your mother, who 690 00:37:35,820 --> 00:37:39,540 S7: was a servant. So there's a blessing actually being given there, 691 00:37:39,739 --> 00:37:43,380 S7: so that those same people will have the freedom to 692 00:37:43,420 --> 00:37:47,860 S7: actually see that a descendancy from Abraham, whether it's ethnic 693 00:37:47,860 --> 00:37:51,500 S7: or not, is actually a blessing, because they are being 694 00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:55,700 S7: pointed towards the Messiah, who is the whole point of 695 00:37:56,540 --> 00:38:00,060 S7: Abraham's blessing to be the father of many nations. And 696 00:38:00,060 --> 00:38:02,620 S7: so instead of seeing them as our enemy, we should 697 00:38:02,620 --> 00:38:06,580 S7: see the descendants of Ishmael as people who are promised 698 00:38:06,580 --> 00:38:09,380 S7: that the Messiah will be for them as well. 699 00:38:09,989 --> 00:38:12,270 S4: Abdu Murray, our guest this morning. You can text the 700 00:38:12,270 --> 00:38:18,870 S4: word embrace to 800 555, 7898 for more details. 800 701 00:38:18,870 --> 00:38:24,190 S4: 555 7898 just text embrace back to the text message. Question. 702 00:38:24,190 --> 00:38:27,910 S4: How do we reconcile that God is omnipresent, but hell 703 00:38:27,910 --> 00:38:29,230 S4: is separation from God. 704 00:38:29,830 --> 00:38:32,190 S7: Yeah, and this comes down to how we have to 705 00:38:32,190 --> 00:38:35,230 S7: clarify our terms sometimes. And this is very important, is 706 00:38:35,230 --> 00:38:38,350 S7: that presence. We have to understand there are two forms 707 00:38:38,350 --> 00:38:42,069 S7: of presence. One form of presence is what theologians have 708 00:38:42,070 --> 00:38:46,470 S7: called in classical Christianity God's essential presence. And there's also 709 00:38:46,469 --> 00:38:51,350 S7: his relational or gracious presence. God's presence is that he is, 710 00:38:51,350 --> 00:38:55,150 S7: in fact, omnipresent because he is the source of all creation. 711 00:38:55,390 --> 00:38:57,950 S7: He is not a being among beings. He is the 712 00:38:57,950 --> 00:39:01,310 S7: source of all being, and therefore as the source of 713 00:39:01,310 --> 00:39:05,670 S7: all being, he is essentially present everywhere. Everything is sustained 714 00:39:05,670 --> 00:39:09,680 S7: by him. And since we do believe that God sustains 715 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,200 S7: all things that exist, and people who are in hell 716 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,080 S7: in fact, exist. He is therefore sustaining even their existence. 717 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,560 S7: In that sense. So he is essentially present even in 718 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,640 S7: a state of hell. But his relational presence, the presence 719 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,279 S7: where we can feel him and understand him and have 720 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,000 S7: communion with him that is absent. He withholds that because 721 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,680 S7: we have rejected it. And so in hell we don't 722 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,759 S7: feel his relational or gracious presence. We simply we just 723 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,640 S7: don't feel it. And in that sense, it also masks 724 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,400 S7: our ability to feel his essential presence. He is there. 725 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,399 S7: He's just not there in relationship with those who have 726 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:52,200 S7: chosen rejection of relationship with God. So, as C.S. Lewis 727 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,799 S7: famously put it in a summarization, hell is sort of 728 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,600 S7: locked from the inside. And it's not that God puts 729 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,640 S7: people there at the end of the end of the world, 730 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,680 S7: when we are judged God, there will be two people. 731 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,080 S7: So those who will say to God, thy will be done. 732 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,610 S7: And there will be those to whom God said, thy 733 00:40:08,610 --> 00:40:10,810 S7: will be done, and they will get what they want. 734 00:40:10,850 --> 00:40:14,009 S7: And if they wanted separation from his relational presence, they'll 735 00:40:14,010 --> 00:40:18,330 S7: get that. But God is essentially everywhere, so he's omnipresent 736 00:40:18,330 --> 00:40:21,850 S7: in his essentialness. He is absent in hell in terms 737 00:40:21,850 --> 00:40:24,969 S7: of his relationship or his graciousness to those people because 738 00:40:24,969 --> 00:40:25,850 S7: they've rejected it. 739 00:40:26,250 --> 00:40:29,489 S6: Abdu Murray, our guest. This is epic. Guys. If you're 740 00:40:29,489 --> 00:40:32,529 S6: getting this going, where can I get more? Text the 741 00:40:32,530 --> 00:40:38,410 S6: word embrace to 800 555, 7898. I'm talking videos that 742 00:40:38,410 --> 00:40:43,610 S6: highlight top 20 questions he's answered on university campuses in 743 00:40:43,610 --> 00:40:51,330 S6: adversarial situations. Epic content. Text embrace to 800 555 7898. 744 00:40:51,370 --> 00:40:54,890 S6: Abdu I don't know if your covenant or dispensational and frankly, 745 00:40:54,930 --> 00:40:58,890 S6: those brackets are too constricting in my view. Uh, but 746 00:40:58,930 --> 00:41:03,610 S6: where do you see modern Israel versus ancient Israel today? 747 00:41:04,330 --> 00:41:06,660 S7: Well, um, a couple of things. Is that the first 748 00:41:06,660 --> 00:41:08,620 S7: thing I want to make sure I understand? I push 749 00:41:08,620 --> 00:41:11,820 S7: all this from a biblical anthropology, and that anthropology tells 750 00:41:11,820 --> 00:41:15,060 S7: me that all human beings are sinners. Uh, ancient Israel 751 00:41:15,060 --> 00:41:17,020 S7: was full of people who were sinners, but also people 752 00:41:17,020 --> 00:41:20,859 S7: who did wonderful things. So when those people sinned, they 753 00:41:20,860 --> 00:41:24,420 S7: were judged. And we also have. And they repented. Um, 754 00:41:24,420 --> 00:41:26,820 S7: and when they did the right thing, God rewarded them 755 00:41:26,820 --> 00:41:28,660 S7: and applauded them. And so we ought to do the 756 00:41:28,660 --> 00:41:32,540 S7: same thing. So modern Israel is a country run by 757 00:41:32,540 --> 00:41:37,620 S7: people who are essentially or beset with sinful condition. So 758 00:41:37,620 --> 00:41:40,900 S7: when they sin, we should criticize. When they do right, 759 00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:43,339 S7: we should applaud, just like I do with myself and 760 00:41:43,340 --> 00:41:46,779 S7: any other country. Having said that, how I look at 761 00:41:46,780 --> 00:41:50,299 S7: this is that if Israel exists by God's, by by 762 00:41:50,340 --> 00:41:52,900 S7: God's providence, it exists for a purpose, and that is 763 00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:57,100 S7: to point people to the Messiah. Um, ultimately, the God 764 00:41:57,100 --> 00:42:00,580 S7: of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of Israel, 765 00:42:00,739 --> 00:42:04,870 S7: and that Israel definitely needs to understand who their Messiah is, 766 00:42:04,910 --> 00:42:08,350 S7: and it's Jesus who is from their line. And Israel 767 00:42:08,390 --> 00:42:11,510 S7: should exist to be a beacon and a light to 768 00:42:11,550 --> 00:42:15,510 S7: the world about who the Messiah is. And so that's 769 00:42:15,550 --> 00:42:18,310 S7: the ultimate fulfillment, and that's how the church should act, 770 00:42:18,310 --> 00:42:20,590 S7: as well as a beacon to who the Messiah is. 771 00:42:20,670 --> 00:42:21,830 S7: So that's kind of how I see it. 772 00:42:21,870 --> 00:42:25,069 S6: I love it. Yeah, I'm my conviction, growing conviction is 773 00:42:25,070 --> 00:42:29,550 S6: that Israel is Abraham, the father of all who believe 774 00:42:29,550 --> 00:42:35,670 S6: Abraham is. It's it's a portal into saving connection with 775 00:42:35,710 --> 00:42:40,350 S6: a loving God. And that's the greatest message that they carry. 776 00:42:40,350 --> 00:42:43,590 S6: They carried. And that goes on today. Couple of questions 777 00:42:43,590 --> 00:42:46,590 S6: here that are similar that are call ins here. Uh, 778 00:42:46,590 --> 00:42:50,989 S6: so I'm going to give Ellie the floor from Aurora, Illinois. Ellie. Uh, 779 00:42:50,989 --> 00:42:51,989 S6: what's your question? 780 00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:56,150 S9: Hi. Good morning. Um, I have a son who's a 781 00:42:56,150 --> 00:43:00,150 S9: senior in high school who has been evangelizing his friends 782 00:43:00,150 --> 00:43:02,950 S9: and really just stepping out. He's at public high school. 783 00:43:03,410 --> 00:43:06,130 S9: There's several Muslims at our high school because we're in 784 00:43:06,170 --> 00:43:10,609 S9: a big Indian area, and one of his friends kind 785 00:43:10,610 --> 00:43:14,490 S9: of jokingly expressed interest coming to church. But then use 786 00:43:14,489 --> 00:43:17,089 S9: the caveat, well, you're not going to convert me. I'm 787 00:43:17,090 --> 00:43:20,049 S9: just going to come for fun. What would you suggest 788 00:43:20,050 --> 00:43:23,529 S9: for my son as a way to reach his Muslim friends, 789 00:43:23,969 --> 00:43:26,729 S9: given the fact that, as you were talking earlier about 790 00:43:26,730 --> 00:43:29,650 S9: the square and the Dot, you know that cultural fear 791 00:43:29,650 --> 00:43:32,009 S9: of going against it? What would you how would you 792 00:43:32,010 --> 00:43:34,730 S9: encourage him to reach his his friend? 793 00:43:35,090 --> 00:43:39,130 S7: I am absolutely thrilled that he's doing this. And I'll 794 00:43:39,170 --> 00:43:42,250 S7: and I'll tell you his his friend who jokingly said 795 00:43:42,250 --> 00:43:43,969 S7: he'll come to church. And if he does say, you're 796 00:43:43,969 --> 00:43:45,810 S7: not going to convert me. I got to tell you, 797 00:43:45,810 --> 00:43:49,690 S7: that sounds not vaguely, but strangely familiar. I said the 798 00:43:49,690 --> 00:43:53,130 S7: same things. I did the exact same stuff, and a 799 00:43:53,130 --> 00:43:55,450 S7: muslim coming to church at all is actually kind of 800 00:43:55,489 --> 00:43:59,450 S7: a big deal. So don't don't, um, discount that his 801 00:43:59,489 --> 00:44:03,900 S7: attitude about sort of a resistance to these things is, um, 802 00:44:03,980 --> 00:44:06,340 S7: a shield in some way that can't be penetrated. The 803 00:44:06,340 --> 00:44:07,980 S7: fact that he's willing to come at all is kind 804 00:44:07,980 --> 00:44:10,660 S7: of a big deal. So your son's doing the right thing. 805 00:44:10,660 --> 00:44:14,779 S7: He's becoming aromatic. He's becoming the effervescence of Christ such 806 00:44:14,780 --> 00:44:16,939 S7: that someone could say, I'll go to church. You won't 807 00:44:16,940 --> 00:44:18,859 S7: convert me, but I'll go to church. Well, it took 808 00:44:18,860 --> 00:44:21,700 S7: me nine years to become a Christian, and it didn't 809 00:44:21,739 --> 00:44:24,460 S7: take me nine years because the answers were hard to find. 810 00:44:24,500 --> 00:44:26,459 S7: It took me nine years because the answers were hard 811 00:44:26,460 --> 00:44:30,460 S7: to accept. Um, and it was a bunch of Christians 812 00:44:30,460 --> 00:44:34,540 S7: over time who witnessed to me, who gave me great 813 00:44:34,580 --> 00:44:37,100 S7: reasons not only to believe what the Bible was saying 814 00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:39,540 S7: was true, but that they were living it out. So 815 00:44:39,540 --> 00:44:42,459 S7: your son may be one link in a long chain 816 00:44:42,660 --> 00:44:46,460 S7: that essentially connects Muslims to Christ, including this guy. So 817 00:44:46,500 --> 00:44:49,100 S7: ten years from now, he might come to faith and 818 00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:52,100 S7: he'll have your son to thank for introducing him to 819 00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:54,620 S7: the church life in the first place. So it's not 820 00:44:54,620 --> 00:44:58,299 S7: that conversion will happen immediately, but it's just keep it up. 821 00:44:58,300 --> 00:45:00,580 S7: Because if he is doing this and they think I'll 822 00:45:00,580 --> 00:45:03,750 S7: go to church. Don't worry about the seeming resistance. Oftentimes 823 00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:06,310 S7: I'll tell you this real quick. The more times people 824 00:45:06,310 --> 00:45:08,790 S7: seem resistant, the more you're getting to them. That's what 825 00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:11,270 S7: I did. I got more resistant the more they were 826 00:45:11,270 --> 00:45:14,390 S7: actually getting to me. So take heart and keep it up. 827 00:45:14,430 --> 00:45:17,270 S6: That's Agrippa esque. You know, we don't know if he's 828 00:45:17,270 --> 00:45:20,469 S6: going to turn, but boy, you got to Pauline theology 829 00:45:20,469 --> 00:45:22,310 S6: would say, put it out there. You don't know what 830 00:45:22,350 --> 00:45:26,710 S6: God's going to do. Okay, uh, quick question. Um, we 831 00:45:26,750 --> 00:45:29,190 S6: got this thing called share coming up. We got a 832 00:45:29,230 --> 00:45:32,190 S6: whopper goal next week, and I do. I want to 833 00:45:32,190 --> 00:45:35,190 S6: hear from your heart. Why would you say to those 834 00:45:35,190 --> 00:45:37,310 S6: that are in the boom crew listening to all this 835 00:45:37,310 --> 00:45:41,630 S6: content all week long, why get behind Christian radio? And 836 00:45:41,630 --> 00:45:43,430 S6: you might say, yeah, don't do it. 837 00:45:43,790 --> 00:45:46,830 S7: No, I'll say definitely do do it. Um, and, and 838 00:45:46,830 --> 00:45:48,990 S7: here's why. And I'll make it very personal for me. 839 00:45:49,150 --> 00:45:52,069 S7: When I was not a Christian, when I was a muslim, 840 00:45:52,270 --> 00:45:56,030 S7: and I started hearing some things about the gospel, I 841 00:45:56,070 --> 00:45:58,470 S7: tuned in to Christian radio. I hit the scan button 842 00:45:58,469 --> 00:46:01,000 S7: back before there was iPods, I actually used my radio 843 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:01,799 S7: and hit the scan button. 844 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,120 S6: We got 40s subdued heads up. 845 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,000 S7: I heard Chris. I heard a Christian message that was 846 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,120 S7: so credible and so compelling on Christian radio as a non-Christian, 847 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,080 S7: that it started me thinking, this is actually not as 848 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,200 S7: dumb as I thought it was. And it started a 849 00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,080 S7: part of that journey. So Christian radio reaches non-Christians. You 850 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,160 S7: might not think it does, but it does. So keep 851 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:22,040 S7: up the good work. 852 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:26,000 S6: Oh, okay. That's a banner ad right there. Ali. 853 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,680 S4: I want you to learn more about our guest expert. 854 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,840 S4: I know you've enjoyed this hour as we have Abdu Murray. 855 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:38,080 S4: Just text embrace to 800 555 78, 98. Look for 856 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,839 S4: those 20 questions videos. These are really, really well done 857 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:43,840 S4: and I think are going to help you and especially 858 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,919 S4: your kids. If you have teenagers, just text embrace to 859 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,720 S4: 855 578, 98. And if you want the show cast 860 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,719 S4: to hear again, all of our guests today text show 861 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,600 S4: to 800 555 7898.