S1: Well, what do you do if you want sexual intimacy
S1: and your husband doesn't?
S2: As women, we can get so stuck within ourselves that
S2: we forget to see really, the man that God gave
S2: us as a gift the day we got married. So
S2: when we can step back from that and really begin
S2: to understand him, his wiring, his physical makeup, how God
S2: wired him emotionally, that's where the hope lies, is stepping
S2: back into that place.
S1: This is building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S1: the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages. Today,
S1: what does a wife do when she has a greater
S1: sex drive than her husband? We'll talk about that with
S1: author and counselor Sheri Mueller. She's written our featured resource
S1: today titled I Want Him to Want Me. How to
S1: respond when your husband doesn't want sex. Find out more
S1: at building relationships.us.
S3: As you might imagine, today's topic is probably not for
S3: young children. So I want to mention that here at
S3: the beginning of the program. But at the same time,
S3: I think this could be also a teaching moment for
S3: you and your kids when they hear about marriage and
S3: sexual intimacy. So let me just throw that out here
S3: at the beginning of the program. Gary, we have talked
S3: for many years about the differences between men and women,
S3: but when I saw this title, it intrigued me because
S3: many of the calls we've taken through the years have
S3: been from women who have sexual needs that aren't being
S3: met in their marriage.
S4: Yeah, Chris, that's true. And I think most people would
S4: probably not imagine how many women fall in that category.
S4: So I'm excited not only about the book, but about
S4: having Sherri, the author here with us today. So I'm
S4: looking forward to this discussion.
S3: Well, let me introduce Sherry Mueller. She's an author, speaker,
S3: licensed clinical professional counselor who works with individuals, premarital couples
S3: and married couples, and building and maintaining healthy relationships. Now
S3: you know why she can be on this program. She
S3: is co-founder with her husband, Jim, of Marriage Track and
S3: Growth Track Ministries. She and Jim are high school sweethearts
S3: and they have two daughters. Five grandchildren are featured. Resource
S3: is the book I want him to Want Me how
S3: to respond when your Husband doesn't want sex. Find out
S3: more at building relationships.us.
S4: Well, Sherry, welcome to Building Relationships.
S2: Thank you for having me today.
S4: You wrote an article that received a lot of response,
S4: but one woman's note to you was really the impetus,
S4: as I understand it for this book. So can you
S4: tell us about that and what she said?
S2: Yeah, she responded to an article that we had in
S2: an E! e-newsletter that we send out through our ministry
S2: each month. And the article was called Going Sexless. And
S2: here's what she wrote. She wrote. Oh, wow. I thought
S2: I was the only woman who feels this way. I
S2: get sick of reading or hearing from other women how
S2: much their men think about sex constantly and how much
S2: they want it, because my husband is the total opposite.
S2: I found pornography on his laptop and he lies about
S2: it and shrugs it off as no big deal. I
S2: was blamed for looking at his history. We even went
S2: to counseling over this with our pastor and it was
S2: completely looked over. It's so frustrating that my husband gets
S2: to be this way, and I'm the one who hurts deeply.
S2: I'm a wife who is neglected sexually. He doesn't even
S2: kiss me anymore.
S3: So, Cheri, you got that response? And the book didn't
S3: come immediately from that. But but your you saw a
S3: need there, didn't you?
S2: I did that article and that response was actually ten
S2: years ago and it really sat with me. And there's
S2: been more responses from other women along the way with
S2: similar articles. But I've also encountered it quite often in
S2: my counseling practice, which really also surprised me considerably. And
S2: what it did was it made me begin to think
S2: that there's something more here and something more that's not
S2: being explored in the faith community. Many marriage books will
S2: address this in a paragraph, or maybe a short chapter,
S2: but I wasn't finding anything where a whole book talked
S2: about this subject. So God certainly likes to do very
S2: uncomfortable taps on the shoulders.
S4: Well, we are excited that you listen to God's tap
S4: on the shoulder. Okay.
S2: Thank you.
S4: Now, through your counseling work, you say that you observe
S4: that husbands and wives are not wired to be completely
S4: in sync sexually, and that that's okay. Explain that.
S2: Well, God wired each of us differently, not only in
S2: our personalities, but also very much in our sexuality and
S2: the world around us, especially movies and television shows wants
S2: to tell us that the only way to be compatible
S2: is to be exactly the same. And I take issue
S2: with that. You know, being married is is as long
S2: as I have We have gone through ebbs and flows
S2: and that's an okay place to be. Different, sexually different
S2: in how we're wired. We're not meant to be clones.
S2: And I have experienced that in the counseling room and
S2: have seen substantial differences that people just don't talk about. Yeah.
S4: What are some of the false beliefs and narratives about
S4: husbands and wives and sexual desire?
S2: Well, the primary one that I encounter is men should
S2: always be the initiators. They are always ready and able
S2: to have sex at the drop of a hat. Another
S2: big one that I hear quite a bit from women
S2: of Faith is that all men look at porn and
S2: that's normal. Uh, sex should be frequent several times a week. Uh,
S2: sex is for my pleasure and my release. Uh, for women,
S2: I need a manly man to pursue me. Uh, also
S2: that when a husband fails to respond sexually, that it's
S2: primarily the wife's fault. So a lot of these have
S2: been what I would call filtered through our conscious and
S2: our unconscious. We hear it from friends. We hear it
S2: from girlfriends. We hear it in the media.
S4: I think a lot of our listeners, men and women,
S4: can identify with what you've just said, because I think
S4: there are a lot of folks out there that have
S4: those perceptions. So what are the statistics of women who
S4: desire more sexual intimacy than their husbands?
S2: Well, when I started digging into this and looking at
S2: the research on it, a great deal of research over
S2: the last 20 to 30 years has been done by
S2: men about women's low desire, and it hasn't been until
S2: the last 5 to 10 years that there's been a
S2: flip of that switch, where there's women researchers now looking
S2: at men's lack of desire. And as I was doing
S2: the digging, the statistic of 1 in 3 women will
S2: experience this with their husbands. And in some research the
S2: statistics have been even higher than that. So I took
S2: an average of about 30%. And it was quite shocking
S2: to step back and take a look at that number.
S4: I think most of our listeners would be shocked to
S4: hear that statistic, because I think what you said earlier
S4: is more the common thought, you know, among Christians and non-Christians,
S4: for that matter. As Chris mentioned earlier, we get calls
S4: to this program just about every month from women who say,
S4: you know, I haven't been sexually intimate with my husband
S4: in several years. So when we get those calls, these
S4: women are not alone. Right.
S2: Well, that's one of the reasons I believe God pushed
S2: me to write the book is so that women would
S2: not feel alone any longer in this space in their marriages.
S2: I wanted to be that voice for the women, especially
S2: women of faith, because this is held very close and
S2: it's held in secret.
S4: Do you think that most women who do have this feeling,
S4: they don't reach out for counseling, they don't share it
S4: with their friends. They just really try to not talk
S4: about it.
S2: What woman that I've ever met, or maybe that you've
S2: ever met, would be open to saying, my husband doesn't
S2: desire me So there's a great deal of embarrassment and fear.
S2: There's a risk of further feelings of rejection and shame,
S2: not only from their husband, but a pastor, a lay leader,
S2: a Christian girlfriend who potentially might judge them if they
S2: were to come forward. And I love a quote that
S2: I came across from Brene Brown. Shame is that warm
S2: feeling that washes over us, making us feel small, flawed
S2: and never good enough.
S5: Mhm.
S4: Sheri, you write and I'm quoting from the book now,
S4: many Christian women today suffer in silence. They endure virtually
S4: sexless marriages and desperately want someone to address this issue
S4: from their point of view. How has the church helped
S4: or hurt these women?
S2: Well, sadly, with women who have shared with me a
S2: large majority of the time, the church has hurt rather
S2: than helped. And Julie Slattery brings up. The church has
S2: offered sex education while culture is sexually discipling us, forming
S2: our opinions and worldview on everything sexual. So that message
S2: is very clear and consistent. But the message, sadly, within
S2: the church has not. And so there's been a great
S2: deal of misguided advice by pastors and lay leaders and
S2: small group leaders simply for the wife to try harder,
S2: to submit, to lose weight, to light candles and put
S2: on a negligee and entice their husbands with their favorite meal.
S2: And it again, it goes back to she's responsible. And
S2: the responsibility of the sexual well-being of a marriage actually
S2: falls on both partner's shoulders, not just one.
S4: Yeah, yeah. You know, as Christians, we look to the scriptures,
S4: of course, and any topic that we're talking about. So
S4: let's talk about what the Bible says about women and
S4: their God given sexuality. You know, when you looked at
S4: the scriptures, what did you find?
S2: Well, a lot of Christians don't pick up the book
S2: called Song of Solomon or Song of Songs. And my understanding,
S2: it's a beautiful, poetic book that's kind of snuck in
S2: there in its form. And but it paints a wonderful
S2: and beautiful picture of God's design for sexuality, and it's
S2: just not picked up often enough. And when I went
S2: back through that and looked at the interaction between Solomon
S2: and the Shulamite woman, and she pursued him, she pursued
S2: him with her eyes, with her touch, with smell. And
S2: why wouldn't God give that to a woman? So it
S2: really made me go back and question some of my
S2: own perceptions as well.
S4: You know, I sometimes say about the Song of Solomon,
S4: it's the book we don't read in church. If we do,
S4: if we do, we're very selective, you know? But I
S4: think you're right. In fact, I've encouraged couples at my
S4: marriage conferences. I say, why don't you read the Song
S4: of Solomon together? You know, I said, I wouldn't suggest
S4: more than a chapter a week, but just, you know,
S4: work your way through that book because it speaks very
S4: overtly about sexuality, for sure.
S2: Yeah. It's spicy. Yeah.
S3: Well, and then you get theological strains and some people
S3: allegorize it and say, well, this is this and that
S3: and the other thing, and, you know, there are some
S3: allegorical things in Scripture, but it seems like if you
S3: don't see the sexual intimacy in marriage in that book,
S3: then there's something wrong. Like you say, yeah, there's, you know, it's,
S3: it's a, it's a book that you don't necessarily teach
S3: in church or hear in church. And I wonder if
S3: that's not part of the problem, Sherry, in this whole
S3: communication thing, that if we don't if we can't talk
S3: about that in church, then how do you talk about
S3: it in marriage and how do you communicate? Hey, there.
S3: Feels like there's something off here between the husband and wife.
S3: If you don't have those open lines of communication, you
S3: really have nowhere to go with this. And you do
S3: stay silent, right?
S2: Absolutely. And communication is key. It's something as a couple
S2: that we absolutely have to sit down and talk about.
S2: And more often than not, sadly, it's avoided. Yeah.
S4: I think this book will be a tool that husbands
S4: and wives can use to read through, you know, and
S4: let him hear. Let him, she shares whether these are
S4: her feelings and how she feels, and let him hear
S4: her voice. So it's a good communication book. I think
S4: it'll foster communication for couples.
S2: That's what I'm praying for.
S3: Yeah. Let me give you the title of it. I
S3: Want Him to Want Me by Sheri Mueller. How to
S3: respond when Your Husband Doesn't want sex. You can find
S3: it at the website. Building relationships.us. And let me get
S3: a phone number in here, too. If you're listening today
S3: and you want to respond to what we're talking about,
S3: we may include your comment or question on a future
S3: Dear Gary broadcast. So let me just tell you the number. 866424. Gary,
S3: call with any question or comment or response that you
S3: have to our topic today. 1866424.
S4: Gary Sherry you you in the book talk about several
S4: individuals examples and all of this. So I'd like for
S4: you to share some stories of women who do struggle
S4: with intimacy in the relationship. Tell us, for example, about
S4: Hannah and her story.
S2: Well, Hannah decided to go on a weekend journey or
S2: getaway with several of her college friends. And of course,
S2: a lot of times, as we will do as women
S2: when we're hanging out with some of our besties, we
S2: talk about a lot of different things and and we share.
S2: And many times we can overshare. But several of the
S2: women in her group were talking about how often their
S2: husbands pursue them and how often they struggle with that themselves.
S2: But Hannah found herself staying very, very silent during this
S2: weekend trip with her friends. But she was sitting there
S2: and again, deeply embarrassed to even admit that she has
S2: a husband who doesn't pursue her, that she's always been
S2: the one to do the pursuing and oftentimes being turned down.
S2: And so she stayed silent, certainly out of her own
S2: embarrassment and certainly out of her own pain. And it
S2: was a pain she felt she couldn't share with the
S2: other women that were there with her that weekend.
S4: So did she, in fact, share or not?
S2: She did not. Yeah. She she stayed quiet. Yeah.
S4: I'm guessing that some of our listeners are thinking, that
S4: would be me if I were in that setting.
S2: Absolutely.
S3: And then the isolation intensifies. You know, the shame, the silence.
S3: I'm all alone with this. I can't I can't trust
S3: anybody with this. I can't talk, my husband won't talk
S3: about it, and I can't talk to my friends about it.
S3: So that gives you just an inside look at the
S3: isolation that she feels. Right, Sherry?
S2: Absolutely. And that pain runs so deep with regard to rejection.
S4: Another story that you include is a woman named Angela.
S4: Tell us about her.
S2: Well, Angela had been married for many, many years and
S2: felt that she had done everything she could to have
S2: the communication with her husband, to take steps, you know,
S2: to break the ice, to go to counseling as well,
S2: but throughout the years it had gotten to a place
S2: where her husband was modeling what's called indifference. I would
S2: call that that she didn't matter, that she wasn't important.
S2: Stonewalling or giving her the silent treatment. And Leslie Vernick,
S2: who wrote The Emotionally Destructive Marriage, speaks about how deeply
S2: destructive indifference is to marriages and that it is a
S2: form of emotional abuse. And this was the really hard
S2: reality that Angela wound up having to face in her
S2: relationship with her husband. Yeah.
S3: Sheri, you talk about Hannah and Angela. Are these real people?
S2: Well, to protect the identity and the stories of the
S2: women that are mentioned in the book. Um, I had
S2: to do what's called composite stories, and that was a
S2: really important aspect of that confidentiality that I did not
S2: want to break. So, and I identify that in the
S2: beginning of the book that these are composites. So with Angela,
S2: I do not know her final outcome in her marriage.
S2: I wish I did. Um, but when abuse is part
S2: of a marriage, there's a lot deeper issues that need
S2: to be addressed than just the dynamics of sexuality.
S4: Yeah. And I think all counselors certainly appreciate that reality
S4: because we do not want to reveal confidentiality. But there's
S4: enough of the stories, various stories that kind of come
S4: together in a very, very similar way. But let's, let's,
S4: let's talk about the husbands now. What are some of
S4: the reasons why husbands may not be as responsive in
S4: the sexual area with their with their wives? What are
S4: what are some of the things that are going on
S4: in the husband's heart and mind?
S2: Well, I did not interview any husbands for the book,
S2: but I do have one at home who was a
S2: wonderful support. He was open to even writing a short
S2: piece to husbands at the back of the book. One
S2: of the dynamics is that I address is so often
S2: physical health and mental health challenges are present, and it's
S2: not something that men are openly willing to address. In
S2: the book, I call it pulling a root canal. Particularly,
S2: I find that a lot of couples, when it comes
S2: to their physical health and mental health, they don't do
S2: it well together. And one of the big questions that
S2: I propose, especially when it comes to medications, is ask
S2: your doctor the question, how will this medication affect libido?
S2: It's an embarrassing question to ask, but it's immensely important
S2: because so many things that we take and we put
S2: into our bodies, particularly for men, even when we're talking,
S2: let's say with regard to diabetes, that's going to affect
S2: sexual desire as well. I talk about a man who's
S2: been victimized. He was sexually abused. He even what has
S2: come up more recently, certainly in our culture, is that
S2: a husband may have not revealed a gender confusion, bisexuality
S2: or homosexuality. That's coming up a great deal even in
S2: Christian marriages today. He's having an affair. The big one
S2: that I do talk about quite a bit is the
S2: use of porn. So neurodiversity. ADHD, autism, and certainly insecurities
S2: about his own body. Men also struggle with that themselves.
S3: We had this call, Gary, that came in on our
S3: listener line, and it was the wife saying, I knew
S3: on the wedding night that there was something wrong, but
S3: it took like a 10 or 12 years for it
S3: to kind of work out that she she understood this
S3: and her husband was arrested, you know, down the road
S3: for soliciting a police officer, you know, undercover police officer,
S3: a male police officer. And she said, now I can
S3: see this looking back, what was going on. But at
S3: the time I couldn't see it. Cheri. So you hear
S3: those kinds of stories too, don't you?
S2: Absolutely. I certainly wish that wasn't the case. But sin,
S2: even in our marriages, certainly gets hidden on many different levels.
S2: And it's something I encounter in the counseling room every
S2: single day. I wish I didn't, but it really is
S2: the nature of the world that we live in.
S1: This is the building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
S1: Thanks for listening and for telling others about the conversations
S1: we have here. When you go to Five Love languages.com,
S1: you can find more ways to strengthen your relationships. Just
S1: click the resources tab and you'll find the podcast there
S1: and our featured resource. I want him to want me.
S1: How to respond when your husband doesn't want sex. It's
S1: written by our guest, Sheri Mueller. again go to five
S1: love languages.com.
S4: You know sharing in our last segment you talked about
S4: physical and mental difficulties that men may be going through
S4: and that medications that they may be taking, you know,
S4: for those situations would greatly affect them. But you also
S4: mentioned the use of porn. And I know in my
S4: own looking back at my own counseling record through the years,
S4: this has been one of the major factors I've found
S4: is that if men are not expressing interest in being
S4: sexually active with their wives, it leads back to the
S4: fact that they are probably addicted on porn. Tell us
S4: what what you discovered about that. And and later we
S4: can talk about how should a wife respond to that?
S2: For many marriages today, especially when I'm sitting with the wife,
S2: often doing a split session or a Or single session
S2: with her. She will admit that she knows her husband
S2: is looking at it. And when I dress well, how
S2: how does it feel for you? What's your experience with this?
S2: They will tell me that they see this as normal.
S2: And this is something that all men do. And yes,
S2: Christian men do look at porn, even Christian pastors do.
S2: And it has infiltrated our society so deeply that a
S2: lot of women tell me they just have to accept it,
S2: even though they will tell me this feels like a
S2: form of betrayal to them. But if they want a
S2: man in their life, they're going to have to live
S2: with it. And I say personally, I'm like, how can
S2: you live with that level of betrayal? How can you
S2: live with that level of comparison that as women, we
S2: can never measure up to.
S4: Yeah, yeah, I've had many women in my office say,
S4: what's wrong with me? That he has to go somewhere else? Absolutely.
S4: Go into it. Go into an unreal world because porn
S4: is an unreal world, you know? While some certainly may
S4: come to the place where they kind of press themselves
S4: to simply accept it, I think there are others that
S4: that realize, no, no, this is not to be a part,
S4: you know, of a healthy marriage relationship. And I sometimes
S4: say to gentlemen and men who are involved in that,
S4: you know, Guy, if you follow that road very far
S4: down the road, it will be addictive, as addictive as cocaine,
S4: and you will need divine help to break that bondage
S4: and come back into the real world. I don't personally
S4: think that that men find ultimate satisfaction in pornography. You know,
S4: ultimate satisfaction sexually for men is, as the Bible says,
S4: it's a husband and wife who have an intimate relationship
S4: with each other, you know, and it's one expression of
S4: our love for each other. So, well, this is this
S4: is such an important, important issue. During the writing of
S4: the book, you share a personal experience that occurred and
S4: some things that God revealed to you. Share some of
S4: that with us.
S2: Well, I always, um, love how God wants to give
S2: you a sense of reality as you're writing, writing stories
S2: about others. And then he he wants to integrate one
S2: of your own. And I didn't find it amusing. But
S2: during the winter months here in Chicago, my wonderful and
S2: loving husband Jim really struggles with the winter blues. And
S2: the technical term for that is seasonal affective disorder, and
S2: there was one particular winter that this really hit him
S2: hard with lack of energy, with deep sadness, and we
S2: had to tackle quite a few doctor visits together to
S2: get to the bottom of it. And this girl was
S2: not a happy camper because winter blues they hit around
S2: early October and they like to last into April or May,
S2: and it just made me cry out to God. It
S2: made me ask a lot of questions. It made me
S2: have some come to Jesus meetings with the doctors. I
S2: went to all of those appointments with Jim, a good
S2: majority of them, because I had to advocate, because he
S2: was in a really hard place when he was struggling
S2: to advocate for himself, and it helped me learn a
S2: lot about my own mindset with regard to our sexuality
S2: as a couple, that I had to love my husband's
S2: heart more than his body. Mhm.
S4: Mhm. You know, I think when we go through things,
S4: I say we as counselors and pastors and Christian leaders,
S4: God intends not only to walk with us through that,
S4: but he wants to use the difficult times we've gone
S4: through to help other people. So thank you for being vulnerable.
S4: My wife and I years, years ago said, if we're
S4: ever going to help people, other couples, we have to
S4: be honest about our own struggles and things we've been through.
S4: So thanks. Thanks for sharing that.
S2: Oh you're welcome.
S4: What are some of the fears and some of the
S4: feelings that wives have about coming forward, you know, and
S4: and communicating these concerns with their husbands?
S2: Well, the biggest fear that I hear is that their
S2: husbands will continue to push them away further if they
S2: come forward to talk about this. The other fear and
S2: concern is that they will be met with anger. And
S2: the biggest fear that I also hear from from men
S2: is that they will be perceived by their wives as weak.
S2: But they'll also, if another man were to find out
S2: that their desire is low, that they're also going to
S2: be perceived as weak by other men. So this topic
S2: in addressing it is coming forward with a place of
S2: I care for you, I care for our marriage, and
S2: I care for our sexuality. A lot of times those
S2: conversations tend to happen in the bedroom. Not the best
S2: place they need to be in a quiet place, or
S2: even over a cup of coffee together and shared in
S2: a way that communicates empathy for the struggle.
S3: Doesn't that though? Also, you have to be careful with
S3: that because the woman can feel like if I don't
S3: say this the right way, then it's my fault again.
S2: Absolutely.
S3: And get right into that cycle again, like the hamster
S3: on the wheel. So there's a there's a fine line
S3: with that in that communication, isn't there?
S2: Absolutely. Yeah.
S3: So how do you navigate that then let's say there's
S3: a there's a wife listening right now who's and the
S3: and the husband is a little, you know, pushes back
S3: his a little defensive. You could either say, well he's
S3: been to pornography or he's having an affair or whatever,
S3: or it could be something, you know, that's that's out
S3: of his control. Medical, as you mentioned. What does that
S3: wife say? How does the the conversation Look.
S2: I always describe it as my heart is for us
S2: to be the best that God has asked us to
S2: be in our marriage, that I want and desire connection
S2: with you, even if it isn't going to be intercourse
S2: that we are experiencing other types of love and touch
S2: and connection. Can you meet me there? Can we find
S2: a way and a path forward? Can we look at
S2: getting some help together with regard to this? And you
S2: may get pushback? Absolutely. But don't just leave it sitting
S2: on the table to never be discussed again. If you
S2: need to as a wife, go and get your own
S2: counseling for a little while and process all of these
S2: feelings of hurt and rejection and pain, and maybe sometimes
S2: doing that first before coming back to him. We'll give
S2: you a greater sense of how you can express those
S2: feelings with him.
S3: That goes back, Gary, to something that you have said
S3: for a long time, and that is if you are
S3: a conflict avoider, you know, if you grew up in
S3: a family where there's a lot of conflict and you
S3: want that in your marriage, then doing this hard thing
S3: of bringing up this topic is going to be like
S3: climbing Mount Everest. It's really hard, isn't it?
S4: Yeah, I think that's I think that's true, Chris, and
S4: that's why I think this book can be very, very
S4: helpful to a wife. For example, the wife, just reading,
S4: reading those things that you shared earlier, Sherry, about the
S4: different kind of things that might be going on with
S4: the husband physically and mentally and medications that he might
S4: be on. And if she realizes, oh, well, my husband
S4: has this, or my husband has that, or he's taking
S4: this medication, it may help her realize, oh, that that
S4: may be the source of this. You know, that's probably
S4: an easy place to start in bringing up communication. And
S4: then let's discuss this with your with your doctor and
S4: let's see how this medication is affecting you. I think
S4: this book is going to be a real resource to
S4: ladies who are struggling in this area and may open
S4: up communication. In fact, if your husband sees you reading
S4: the book, he may ask you, what's going on? Yes, exactly.
S4: And you can say, well, I'm glad you asked. You know,
S4: I just, uh, I've kept a lot of stuff inside,
S4: but this book is revealing kind of who I am,
S4: and I'm realizing I'm not alone. There are others that
S4: are going through this, and. But I just believe it
S4: could be better, you know, to an open conversation that's
S4: not condemning, but, you know, seeking to understand. And, uh,
S4: and of course, you can't make a man, you know,
S4: be sane, you know, or respond in a sane way. Uh,
S4: he may get angry. And anger is probably one of
S4: the more common responses. because he may feel like, you know,
S4: you're kind of, you know, judging him or putting him
S4: down or whatever. Let me ask this question, Sherry. How
S4: long is too long to wait for a husband to
S4: come around to adequate desire for sex in the marriage?
S2: Uh, that was a tough question. I had to wrestle
S2: with for a little bit, to be honest with you.
S2: But adequate is going to be different for every couple.
S2: And perhaps God is saying, stop trying to fix things
S2: and redesign your husband. Let me do the work in him. Pray. Watch. Wait.
S2: Listen patiently. If the only goal is intercourse, then both
S2: the wife and husband will be deeply disappointed. If the
S2: goal is returning to intimacy and redefining, really redefining what
S2: looks that looks like in small steps in your relationship.
S2: Because so many of us define intimacy two ways, sexually
S2: and emotionally, and we really stunt our description of God's
S2: design for intimacy if we're only looking at it through
S2: those two lenses. So in severe cases where it's been
S2: years and years, where there's been indifference, where there's been abuse,
S2: I put this in the book that I do recommend
S2: a healing time of healing, separation. And that's a very
S2: structured time that has worked through with either a pastor
S2: or with a counselor, especially when you have a husband
S2: who absolutely, absolutely refuses to get any level of help.
S4: Yeah. So there is a time for tough love.
S2: There is a time for tough love. Yes.
S3: Now look who we have in the studio. Jim, the
S3: husband of Sherri for 48.5 years. Can you believe that?
S3: Co-Founder of Marriage Track and Growth Track Ministries. When Sherri
S3: mentioned this, Jim, that you wrote this chapter to men
S3: at the end of the book, I thought, I got
S3: to hear what you have to say. So jump in here.
S3: What do you say to men at the end of
S3: her book?
S6: Essentially, I don't want to make it sound like it's
S6: easy for a man to know what's going on in
S6: the relationship. I think most men are not tuned in
S6: to that. They're clueless. Sometimes. When I had feedback from Sherri,
S6: I would say in the beginning I wasn't picking up
S6: on what Sherri was communicating, and so I would just
S6: let it go and probably Said, you know, if I
S6: just ignore it or empathize a little bit, this will
S6: get this will get better. And as time went on,
S6: I think Sherry provided less feedback to me, even though
S6: the problems were still there. Eventually, I know that there
S6: was a point where I pursued some some outside help.
S6: You know, one was with the with the depression. So
S6: can you do you remember when that happened?
S2: Well, we had gotten through the holidays together, and I
S2: just observed you being very absent with me and absent
S2: with the kids, just not really enjoying it. And so
S2: after the holidays were over, I just sat down and said,
S2: I'm missing you. I'm missing us. Um. I'm missing the
S2: connection that we've often shared together throughout our marriage. And
S2: what are we going to do to to get some
S2: further help for this? And I'm just grateful that you
S2: were open to to getting that further help and exploring
S2: what we needed to do to get to feeling better.
S6: I would first say that this was just not about
S6: our our sexual relationship. It was about, uh, intimacy. You know,
S6: from a high level spirit, also spiritual intimacy. It was communication.
S6: Part of that also was, uh, the the empathy that
S6: I had. I think I wasn't really equipped for that
S6: or didn't care about it. It wasn't listening to you.
S6: There was a whole package of things that I was
S6: kind of missing the boat on.
S3: I love this, I love the bullet points that you
S3: were talking about. You say, do not pull away from
S3: your wife physically, emotionally, or spiritually. Try to understand her needs.
S3: Empathize with her feelings. Listen. Be patient. Never give the
S3: silent treatment. Accept her help and take the feasible steps
S3: necessary to maximize the physical, emotional, and spiritual health of
S3: your relationship. And it goes on from there. Initiate prayer
S3: with your wife. Even better, making praying together a part
S3: of your routine. So there are a lot of practical
S3: helps in here. Sherry, that Jim brought along to for
S3: for men to read and to say, look, you don't
S3: have to retreat or get angry here. This is she's
S3: doing this because she loves you, right?
S2: Absolutely. And that she wants to remain married and she
S2: wants to find a way. She doesn't want to blame
S2: you or shame you or embarrass you. Um, that's that's never.
S2: And in my case, that was never my heart towards Jim.
S4: I think the other thing that strikes me is that
S4: what you had mentioned earlier, and what Jim reiterated there briefly,
S4: is that intimacy is more than sexual intimacy. You know,
S4: it's it's intellectual intimacy. You know, sharing thoughts, ideas and things.
S4: It's social intimacy. You know, it's doing things together outside
S4: the home and spiritual intimacy, which you which you shared.
S4: You know, praying together is certainly one way to do that. And,
S4: you know, I've sometimes encouraged couples who have never really
S4: prayed together. Try praying silently, you know, hold hands with
S4: each other, pray silently when you get through, say amen
S4: and wait till they say amen. Well, anybody can do that.
S4: But but if you come to God every night like that,
S4: just for a few minutes, you cannot come to God
S4: together and not begin to affect the way you treat
S4: each other. The way you feel about each other. And
S4: I think that's why Christians have more help than non-Christians,
S4: because we have the help of God when we're working through,
S4: you know, situations like this.
S2: Well, a healthy and growing marriage integrates really numerous kinds
S2: of intimacy, which requires to me, requires intention, attention, and action. So, Gary,
S2: you touch about several other different kinds, but I do
S2: mention some more within the book about creating an atmosphere
S2: of touch, and that's non-sexual connection outside of the bedroom.
S2: A lot of times, just working side by side together
S2: on a project in the home or hanging out in
S2: the garage, even volunteering together. That has brought wonderful connection
S2: in our marriage when we volunteered in marriage ministry together.
S5: Yeah.
S2: Time alone for us. No kids. There's one other that
S2: I describe as awe and wonder. So in nature, you know,
S2: being at the beach together, being on a hike together
S2: in the mountains, where do the two of you most
S2: experience God? Together. And I know nature. And being by
S2: the beach and listening to the waves is one that
S2: we always connect really well on.
S5: Yeah.
S4: So it may be in some of these areas would
S4: be the place even to start, you know, if we
S4: can develop some, some of these things in the relationship
S4: because all of that does affect us sexually. You know,
S4: we begin to feel emotionally close to each other because
S4: we're sharing life in all these ways. So yeah, I
S4: think that's that's a great idea.
S6: I think it's important to, to understand what activities, uh,
S6: tear down intimacy. For example, on our way over here
S6: this morning, I was reminded that anything to do with directions,
S6: for example, looking at a map or talking about, you know,
S6: what's ahead, programming the Apple Play or something like that
S6: can cause conflict. So that's a different topic, but.
S2: We're just being honest.
S5: So it's real life.
S3: That is real life I love it.
S5: Yeah yeah.
S6: Yeah.
S4: And I think learning how to solve conflicts, you know,
S4: without arguing with each other. But all of us have
S4: had a history of that. So and learning the strengths
S4: and weaknesses of each other, you know, on directions. My
S4: wife is super, super at that. So I don't ever
S4: tell her we need to turn that peer. You know,
S4: I'm asking her now, honey, where am I supposed to turn?
S5: Yeah. Yeah.
S4: Well, Sherry, as we come to the end of our
S4: time together today. Uh, just speak to to the ladies
S4: out there who may be, in fact, struggling in this area.
S4: What would you like to say to them as we
S4: as we close our time together here?
S2: My heart is for hope and for understanding not only
S2: of themselves, but of their husbands. Just in the writing
S2: of this book, I really came to understand men in
S2: a new way. And I also, believe it or not,
S2: after 48 years came to understand my husband Jim, in
S2: a new way. He supports me incredibly, and yet, as women,
S2: we can get so stuck within ourselves that we forget
S2: to see really, the man that God gave us as
S2: a gift the day we got married. So when we
S2: can step back from that and really begin to understand him,
S2: his wiring, his physical makeup, how God wired him emotionally.
S2: That's where the hope lies, is stepping back into that place.
S5: Yeah.
S4: And allowing our husbands to be a husband and allowing
S4: the wife to be a wife. And we are all different.
S4: And so negotiating the differences is a part of any
S4: growing marriage. So. Well, this has been a wonderful discussion
S4: and I want to thank you for being with us today. Uh,
S4: both you and Jim today. And also, I want to
S4: encourage our listeners to get a copy of this book.
S4: I think it will help you and even those that
S4: are not struggling in this area. You likely have friends
S4: who are, and this book would help you help them.
S4: So make the most of this. Use it because it's
S4: an excellent book and you don't find a lot out
S4: there like this book in the Christian community. So again,
S4: thanks for being with us, Sherry.
S2: Oh thank you.
S3: Well, if this issue affects your marriage, our hope is
S3: that this conversation Station has validated you that you're not
S3: alone in the struggle if you go to. Building relationships us,
S3: you'll find your featured resource. I want him to want me.
S3: How to respond when your Husband doesn't want sex? Written
S3: by our guest, Sheri Mueller with a cameo appearance by Jim.
S3: Today again, go to building relationships.us.
S4: And next week, moving from the shame of a pornography
S4: addiction to authentic intimacy.
S1: Don't miss the conversation with Doctor Julie Slattery in one week.
S1: A big thank you to Steve Wick and Janice backing
S1: for their work behind the scenes. Building relationships with Doctor
S1: Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in Chicago
S1: in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
S1: Thanks for listening.