1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,239 S1: Welcome to our Wednesday edition of Chris Avery Live. The 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,680 S1: program from the heart to the heart for the heart. 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:15,120 S1: I want you to think about a word. Situate. How 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:19,680 S1: do you situate something? I can situate myself in the 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,000 S1: driver's seat of a sports car. I can situate a 6 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,400 S1: fuse or a relay into an electrical circuit. You got 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,320 S1: to make sure you push it all the way down there. 8 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,920 S1: I found this definition to fix or build something in 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:39,200 S1: a certain place or position, or put in context. Today, 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,000 S1: your situation might be struggle, it might be hardship. It 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:48,680 S1: might be tension in your life. Loss, affliction, suffering. How 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,440 S1: do you situate that suffering in God's plan for your 13 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,680 S1: life in such a way that it draws you closer 14 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,000 S1: to him, rather than makes you feel like he doesn't 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,480 S1: care or isn't there. This is one of the recurring 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,840 S1: conversations we have at the radio backyard fence, because suffering 17 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,039 S1: is something we all deal with on some level every day. 18 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,160 S1: And if you're going through some kind of trial, don't 19 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,640 S1: miss what doctor Mark Talbot has done in an excellent 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,760 S1: volume that deals with what I think is the biggest 21 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,680 S1: question inside and outside the church, what do we do 22 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,320 S1: with suffering? That's straight ahead here on Chris Fabry Live. 23 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,200 S1: Let me thank our team. Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,640 S1: Trish is our producer. Lisa is around as well and 25 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,640 S1: I think Josh is here answering your calls. If you 26 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,560 S1: have a question or a comment about today's program, we'd 27 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,080 S1: love to hear from you. There are others on the team, 28 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,600 S1: like Sherry from Tennessee, who gave a gift yesterday and 29 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:49,000 S1: mentioned the tribute to Robert Wolgemuth that we aired yesterday. Sherry, 30 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,080 S1: thank you for your encouraging words that you left and 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,320 S1: for the gift you gave. That's going to keep the 32 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,160 S1: radio backyard fence going. I thank you this month to 33 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:02,790 S1: anybody who supports us is Doctor Michael Riedel. Timely. Biblical. Concise. 34 00:02:02,790 --> 00:02:06,390 S1: Excellent book. How should Christians think about Israel? Give a 35 00:02:06,430 --> 00:02:10,190 S1: gift of any size at Christmas. We'd love to send 36 00:02:10,190 --> 00:02:16,429 S1: you a copy. Chris Fabbri. Fabbri. Chris. Fabbri. Live. Or 37 00:02:16,430 --> 00:02:20,470 S1: call the number at any .866953. And you can give 38 00:02:20,470 --> 00:02:22,630 S1: a gift that way. Or leave a message for us 39 00:02:22,630 --> 00:02:29,470 S1: if you want to get our voicemail. (866) 953-2279. And thank 40 00:02:29,470 --> 00:02:35,790 S1: you for your generosity here in January. In August of 2020. Boy, 41 00:02:35,830 --> 00:02:38,990 S1: that was a tumultuous year. I had the pleasure of 42 00:02:38,990 --> 00:02:41,350 S1: talking with doctor Mark Talbott about a new book that 43 00:02:41,350 --> 00:02:44,430 S1: he had written. It was titled When the Stars Disappear 44 00:02:44,990 --> 00:02:48,750 S1: Help and Hope from Stories of Suffering in Scripture. So 45 00:02:48,750 --> 00:02:52,030 S1: it was volume one of suffering in the Christian life. 46 00:02:52,350 --> 00:02:54,750 S1: And I'm sure during that program I said, hey, when 47 00:02:54,750 --> 00:02:57,150 S1: volume two comes out, you got to come back. Well, 48 00:02:57,150 --> 00:03:00,150 S1: volume two came out in July of 2022, so I 49 00:03:00,190 --> 00:03:03,430 S1: am late to the party. But I'm really glad that 50 00:03:03,430 --> 00:03:07,270 S1: we get to have a conversation today with doctor Mark Talbot, 51 00:03:07,470 --> 00:03:11,630 S1: who is associate professor emeritus of philosophy at Wheaton College. 52 00:03:11,669 --> 00:03:14,870 S1: He's taught there for more than 30 years. His areas 53 00:03:14,870 --> 00:03:20,870 S1: of expertise include philosophical psychology, philosophical theology, David Hume, Augustine, 54 00:03:21,110 --> 00:03:24,630 S1: and Jonathan Edwards. He and his wife Cindy have. This 55 00:03:24,630 --> 00:03:28,750 S1: may have changed. One daughter, three grandchildren. Is that, uh, 56 00:03:28,750 --> 00:03:30,550 S1: is that different now, Mark? 57 00:03:30,950 --> 00:03:32,830 S2: No, that's still the same. 58 00:03:32,870 --> 00:03:37,790 S1: Okay, we got that. And, uh, they attend Trinity Presbyterian Church, Hinsdale, Illinois. 59 00:03:37,950 --> 00:03:40,150 S1: Doctor Talbot, welcome back to the program. How are you 60 00:03:40,150 --> 00:03:40,790 S1: doing today? 61 00:03:41,230 --> 00:03:43,470 S2: I'm fine. It's good to be back, Chris. 62 00:03:43,990 --> 00:03:46,910 S1: Um, this is the second volume, then in that suffering 63 00:03:46,910 --> 00:03:49,670 S1: in the Christian Life series, and it's titled give me 64 00:03:49,670 --> 00:03:55,870 S1: understanding that I may live situating our suffering within God's 65 00:03:55,870 --> 00:04:00,150 S1: redemptive plan. Go to Chris. Org. Click through today's information. 66 00:04:00,150 --> 00:04:04,990 S1: You'll see it right there. Uh, on that word situating, uh, 67 00:04:04,990 --> 00:04:06,590 S1: tell me why you chose that. 68 00:04:07,390 --> 00:04:11,270 S2: I think that, uh, we really can't understand our lives 69 00:04:11,270 --> 00:04:15,270 S2: in general, Chris, and much less understand our suffering. If 70 00:04:15,270 --> 00:04:19,950 S2: we can't situate our lives within both a personal and 71 00:04:19,950 --> 00:04:23,870 S2: a general story, a personal story about how our own 72 00:04:23,870 --> 00:04:27,350 S2: lives are going. A general story about what human life means. 73 00:04:27,350 --> 00:04:31,670 S2: And then within that, we understand the suffering that we undergo. 74 00:04:32,430 --> 00:04:37,670 S1: So the the meta narrative, the big story, and seeing 75 00:04:37,710 --> 00:04:40,550 S1: our piece of that story in it. And let me 76 00:04:40,550 --> 00:04:43,070 S1: give you this quote. I read this on, uh, social 77 00:04:43,070 --> 00:04:46,110 S1: media today from Joanna Weaver, who was with us last Wednesday. 78 00:04:46,110 --> 00:04:50,150 S1: She said this your obedience is a puzzle piece being 79 00:04:50,190 --> 00:04:53,470 S1: added to a big picture God is already putting together. 80 00:04:53,750 --> 00:04:58,460 S1: So do what he's asking. Your piece is necessary, and 81 00:04:58,460 --> 00:05:01,620 S1: it strikes me that suffering is a part of that mystery, 82 00:05:01,620 --> 00:05:05,420 S1: part of that puzzle that God is at work, uh, 83 00:05:05,460 --> 00:05:07,700 S1: doing in our lives. Do you agree with that? 84 00:05:08,500 --> 00:05:11,099 S2: Uh, yeah, I do agree with that. Although I think 85 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:15,620 S2: I'd want to say that, um, suffering, um, is in 86 00:05:15,620 --> 00:05:17,980 S2: some ways not as much of a mystery as we 87 00:05:17,980 --> 00:05:20,420 S2: would take it to be. Uh, Scripture makes it clear 88 00:05:20,420 --> 00:05:23,500 S2: that we ought to expect to suffer, in fact, that 89 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:25,940 S2: it is just part of the Christian life to suffer. 90 00:05:26,220 --> 00:05:30,500 S2: There are aspects of our suffering that we may not 91 00:05:30,500 --> 00:05:34,260 S2: understand in this life, and I don't know if we'll 92 00:05:34,260 --> 00:05:39,420 S2: get explanations of them in the eschaton in the next life. But, um, 93 00:05:39,420 --> 00:05:43,300 S2: a lot of suffering is such that we can understand 94 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:47,300 S2: why it happens and why there's so much of it. 95 00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:51,380 S1: Yes. Um, here's a question from the book, and it's 96 00:05:51,380 --> 00:05:55,380 S1: a little a little further down. But what is suffering, 97 00:05:55,380 --> 00:05:57,940 S1: you say we suffer whenever we experience anything that is 98 00:05:57,940 --> 00:06:00,860 S1: either unpleasant enough or harmful enough that we want it 99 00:06:00,860 --> 00:06:03,740 S1: to end. What is suffering? 100 00:06:04,180 --> 00:06:07,940 S2: That's tremendously important as a part of this book, Chris. 101 00:06:08,220 --> 00:06:10,660 S2: What I was trying to do was to find a 102 00:06:10,660 --> 00:06:15,219 S2: definition of suffering that covers all of the kinds of 103 00:06:15,220 --> 00:06:19,220 S2: suffering that we undergo. You mentioned that we suffer a 104 00:06:19,220 --> 00:06:22,620 S2: bit every day, and in fact, that is what our 105 00:06:22,620 --> 00:06:27,859 S2: usual way of thinking about suffering doesn't really encompass. We 106 00:06:27,860 --> 00:06:32,940 S2: tend to think of suffering as something going pretty significantly wrong. 107 00:06:33,140 --> 00:06:37,300 S2: But in fact, if we understand the first few chapters 108 00:06:37,300 --> 00:06:41,779 S2: of Genesis, we understand in chapter three that once Adam 109 00:06:41,779 --> 00:06:45,580 S2: and Eve had eaten from the forbidden tree that Eve 110 00:06:45,580 --> 00:06:49,300 S2: was going to suffer in childbirth and in child rearing. 111 00:06:49,420 --> 00:06:52,500 S2: I think it includes not just the pains of childbirth, 112 00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:55,820 S2: but all of the difficulties of rearing children, all of 113 00:06:55,820 --> 00:06:59,260 S2: the hopes and fears that we have. And Adam, we're told, 114 00:06:59,260 --> 00:07:01,940 S2: was going to, as it's put in the New Living Translation, 115 00:07:01,980 --> 00:07:03,820 S2: he was going to spend all of his life trying 116 00:07:03,820 --> 00:07:07,860 S2: to scratch a living from the soil. And that, in fact, 117 00:07:07,900 --> 00:07:10,700 S2: is a kind of mild form of suffering, as I've 118 00:07:10,740 --> 00:07:14,420 S2: told my students for years, if at the end of 119 00:07:14,460 --> 00:07:18,340 S2: a day when they are in college, they aren't tired. 120 00:07:19,220 --> 00:07:23,940 S2: It's probably it's probably a case of they're having not 121 00:07:23,940 --> 00:07:27,460 S2: done what they should of that day in order to 122 00:07:27,500 --> 00:07:31,580 S2: understand all that they are trying to learn as they're 123 00:07:31,580 --> 00:07:36,140 S2: in college. Suffering is just part of daily life. And 124 00:07:36,140 --> 00:07:38,780 S2: so there's always a little bit of it. 125 00:07:39,460 --> 00:07:41,660 S1: So take us back to the garden, because that's the 126 00:07:41,700 --> 00:07:46,940 S1: very first place that you start. And in creation there 127 00:07:46,940 --> 00:07:50,530 S1: is no concept prior to the fall. There is no 128 00:07:50,530 --> 00:07:54,730 S1: concept of suffering, no coveting, no anxiety. You don't have lust. 129 00:07:54,770 --> 00:07:58,930 S1: You have no shame. There's no guilt. The only thing 130 00:07:58,970 --> 00:08:01,690 S1: not good there was that Adam was alone. Right? 131 00:08:03,570 --> 00:08:07,530 S2: Good way to put it. Yeah. And? And we don't 132 00:08:07,530 --> 00:08:11,570 S2: know the timeline of those first couple of chapters of Genesis. So, 133 00:08:11,570 --> 00:08:14,570 S2: for instance, we don't know how long he was alone. 134 00:08:14,610 --> 00:08:18,050 S2: We don't know if, in fact, God, as after he 135 00:08:18,050 --> 00:08:20,250 S2: had made Adam, he had put him in the garden 136 00:08:20,250 --> 00:08:22,530 S2: to tend it and keep it. In other words, Adam 137 00:08:22,530 --> 00:08:25,970 S2: had work in the garden even before there was sin. 138 00:08:26,210 --> 00:08:29,250 S2: We don't know how long it was after God did that, 139 00:08:29,250 --> 00:08:33,130 S2: that he in fact created the woman. All we know 140 00:08:33,250 --> 00:08:38,770 S2: is that the creation of the woman was such that, um, 141 00:08:38,809 --> 00:08:43,610 S2: as soon as Adam saw her, he realized that this 142 00:08:43,610 --> 00:08:48,490 S2: was the kind of human completion that he needed, that 143 00:08:48,490 --> 00:08:51,209 S2: he needed not merely to be able to communicate with 144 00:08:51,210 --> 00:08:54,210 S2: God above him, and to be able to tend to 145 00:08:54,250 --> 00:08:57,770 S2: the creatures below him. But he needed somebody that he could, 146 00:08:57,809 --> 00:09:01,090 S2: as I put it, communicate with eye to eye on 147 00:09:01,090 --> 00:09:01,930 S2: his own level. 148 00:09:02,250 --> 00:09:07,250 S1: Yeah. This is a it's a fantastic volume, volume two 149 00:09:07,250 --> 00:09:11,730 S1: and the Suffering and Christian Life series. Give me understanding 150 00:09:11,730 --> 00:09:16,370 S1: that I may live situating our suffering within God's redemptive plan. 151 00:09:16,570 --> 00:09:21,050 S1: And it it goes through certain levels of this. You know, 152 00:09:21,090 --> 00:09:23,330 S1: there's the scriptural level. And then there's kind of the 153 00:09:23,330 --> 00:09:27,010 S1: personal level, and then there's the stories. The stories of 154 00:09:27,010 --> 00:09:30,010 S1: the people in the first volume were stories of people 155 00:09:30,010 --> 00:09:34,090 S1: in the Bible who went through suffering. This includes stories 156 00:09:34,090 --> 00:09:37,250 S1: from people like you and me that we can learn from. 157 00:09:37,250 --> 00:09:39,730 S1: And I want to talk with Doctor Talbot about that. 158 00:09:39,970 --> 00:09:44,210 S1: If you go to Chris, click through today's information. You 159 00:09:44,210 --> 00:09:47,730 S1: will see that book link right there. Give me understanding 160 00:09:47,730 --> 00:09:51,330 S1: that I may live. And my next question is going 161 00:09:51,330 --> 00:09:55,810 S1: to be, can we have abundant life without suffering? We'll 162 00:09:55,809 --> 00:10:08,530 S1: talk about that straight ahead. Doctor Mark Talbot is with 163 00:10:08,530 --> 00:10:12,689 S1: us today. Associate professor emeritus of philosophy at Wheaton College. 164 00:10:13,130 --> 00:10:15,210 S1: I don't know if you can hear it in my voice. 165 00:10:15,450 --> 00:10:19,610 S1: I'm excited about this because this is like there are 166 00:10:19,610 --> 00:10:24,090 S1: times here when the meal is very, very pleasing. Uh, 167 00:10:24,290 --> 00:10:27,250 S1: you know, I like hamburger. You know, I like, but 168 00:10:27,290 --> 00:10:32,010 S1: this is steak. This is a big, juicy steak of 169 00:10:32,010 --> 00:10:35,569 S1: truth in front of us. And it's going to take some, 170 00:10:35,730 --> 00:10:39,650 S1: some time to to get into this and to get this, 171 00:10:39,690 --> 00:10:45,209 S1: these truths into you and me as we talk about suffering. Uh, 172 00:10:45,210 --> 00:10:48,839 S1: give me understanding that I may live. Situating our suffering 173 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,840 S1: within God's redemptive plan. See the featured resource Chris Fabry 174 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,079 S1: live again if you want to talk with Doctor Talbott. 175 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:04,880 S1: Respond here today. (877) 548-3675. Jesus said, the thief comes to kill, steal, destroy. 176 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,840 S1: I came to give life and give it abundantly. So 177 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,600 S1: my question to you is, can we have abundant life 178 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,000 S1: without suffering? 179 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,080 S2: Not since the fall. Not since Adam and Eve rebelled 180 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:25,000 S2: against God, refused to accept his gracious invitation to enter 181 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:32,240 S2: into a covenantal, permanent relationship with him. Ever since then, uh, 182 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:37,640 S2: when that in fact severed, uh, our spiritual lifeline to God, 183 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,079 S2: it is inevitable that there's going to be suffering. And 184 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,200 S2: in fact, you can't have abundant life then without suffering, 185 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,360 S2: because first and foremost they are. Lord had to come 186 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:53,240 S2: and suffer in our place. And then in order for 187 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,319 S2: us to understand that this life is not all, that 188 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,920 S2: it's not sufficient. We all need to suffer in order 189 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,559 S2: to have a sense that, in fact, God means for 190 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,199 S2: us to live a life that is much fuller than 191 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,280 S2: anything we can experience now. 192 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,240 S1: And you have lived that because, as you told us, uh, 193 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,840 S1: and you've written about this before, as you told us 194 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,640 S1: a few years ago, you were a teenager when you 195 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,319 S1: got the good idea. That really seemed like a good 196 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,120 S1: idea at the time to to jump on this rope 197 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,640 S1: out in, uh, over a gorge. And there were a 198 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,240 S1: couple other guys tell that story briefly. What happened to you? 199 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,240 S2: Yeah, we had built a rope swing. I had an 200 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,960 S2: older friend. I was 17, and, uh, he was rather inventive. 201 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,240 S2: And we had built a rope swing that swung out 202 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,960 S2: over a gorge in order even to get the rope 203 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,600 S2: up in to the tree. We had to build a 204 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:57,760 S2: crossbow and shoot various lines through the trees. Uh, one 205 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,319 S2: of the trees, uh, wise, in order to get the 206 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,400 S2: rope up. And then you started in a on a 207 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,400 S2: platform about ten feet up in the air, and you 208 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,679 S2: had about 8 to 10ft before there was a cliff 209 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:11,480 S2: and a drop off. And, uh, the, uh, the, the 210 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,920 S2: Tarzan like rope swing had a seat on it, a 211 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,719 S2: round seat. And if you didn't land on that, it 212 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,960 S2: was going fast enough that you couldn't hang on. And so, 213 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,359 S2: in fact, I was on the seat. My friend was 214 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,720 S2: in fact straddled across me. We came back. A third 215 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,800 S2: fellow was going to jump on. He waited till the 216 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,480 S2: rope hesitated before he jumped, and so the rope was 217 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:38,280 S2: actually moving away. By the time he, um, contacted me, 218 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,480 S2: I was holding him with one arm and holding onto 219 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,150 S2: the rope with the other. We got out at the 220 00:13:43,150 --> 00:13:45,510 S2: far end. I realized I was going to fall on 221 00:13:45,510 --> 00:13:47,309 S2: him and I thought, if I fall on him, I'll 222 00:13:47,309 --> 00:13:50,270 S2: kill him. So I pushed him one way. I went 223 00:13:50,270 --> 00:13:55,190 S2: off my feet, went over my head, and I broke 224 00:13:55,190 --> 00:13:58,950 S2: my back at what's called T10 and 11, uh, and, 225 00:13:58,950 --> 00:14:05,590 S2: and uh, immediately, um, was paralyzed. Um, um, could I 226 00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:07,630 S2: had my feet in a little creek and after I 227 00:14:07,630 --> 00:14:10,950 S2: had slowed him down, he wasn't quite as badly damaged. 228 00:14:10,950 --> 00:14:12,910 S2: After I slowed him down, I saw my feet in 229 00:14:12,910 --> 00:14:15,710 S2: the creek and realized I wasn't feeling anything. And I 230 00:14:15,710 --> 00:14:17,430 S2: knew what I had done. Um. 231 00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:21,990 S1: And I asked. I said, this is Shades of Johnny Erickson, 232 00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:24,630 S1: Tara's story in the suffering she's been through. And you 233 00:14:24,630 --> 00:14:28,590 S1: told me before the program, this was around the same time, right? 234 00:14:29,310 --> 00:14:32,270 S2: She and I are exactly the same age, and our 235 00:14:32,270 --> 00:14:36,910 S2: accidents were in exactly the same month of the same year, 1967. 236 00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:41,550 S2: Her accident is, of course, more significant. She's a quadriplegic 237 00:14:41,550 --> 00:14:45,470 S2: and I'm just kind of a partial paraplegic, although nowadays 238 00:14:45,470 --> 00:14:48,470 S2: I'm in a wheelchair. The main thing that happened to 239 00:14:48,510 --> 00:14:51,190 S2: me with regard to that, Chris, was that I had 240 00:14:51,230 --> 00:14:55,630 S2: before that happened, I was so concerned about the ways 241 00:14:55,630 --> 00:14:57,630 S2: that I was going wrong and the ways that I 242 00:14:57,630 --> 00:15:02,870 S2: was being distracted by doing just dangerous things that, um, 243 00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:05,910 S2: I felt that when I got out of high school, 244 00:15:05,910 --> 00:15:08,830 S2: a year later, I'd go to college, but I probably 245 00:15:08,830 --> 00:15:11,350 S2: wouldn't even complete my first year because I wouldn't have 246 00:15:11,550 --> 00:15:14,670 S2: adequate discipline. And what happened was when I hit the 247 00:15:14,670 --> 00:15:17,310 S2: ground and I realized what had happened to me, all 248 00:15:17,310 --> 00:15:21,310 S2: of those distractions fell away. And I and this is 249 00:15:21,310 --> 00:15:26,870 S2: rather remarkable. I think I felt immediately that this was 250 00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:29,990 S2: God's care for me, that he loved me. I had 251 00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:33,230 S2: been a Christian since I was 12, and and I 252 00:15:33,350 --> 00:15:37,590 S2: had prayed that the Lord would somehow help me, um, 253 00:15:37,950 --> 00:15:42,910 S2: get control of my life and and the suffering was 254 00:15:42,910 --> 00:15:46,270 S2: ultimately the way to abundance in the very way that 255 00:15:46,270 --> 00:15:49,070 S2: we were just talking about a couple of minutes ago, Chris. 256 00:15:49,270 --> 00:15:52,670 S2: My life would be if I were alive at all. 257 00:15:52,670 --> 00:15:55,670 S2: It wouldn't have any of the abundance it has without 258 00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:57,030 S2: the suffering I've been through. 259 00:15:57,710 --> 00:16:00,590 S1: Because you were as a young person, you were kind 260 00:16:00,590 --> 00:16:05,110 S1: of addicted to speed. Uh, not not not not a drug, but, yeah. 261 00:16:05,150 --> 00:16:06,230 S2: Going fast. 262 00:16:06,510 --> 00:16:09,550 S1: Yeah, going really, really fast with go karts or whatever 263 00:16:09,550 --> 00:16:12,270 S1: it is that you were doing. Yeah. Just driving really 264 00:16:12,270 --> 00:16:16,870 S1: fast down these, these roads. And so you, you could 265 00:16:16,910 --> 00:16:19,990 S1: intuit at that point because it sounds like you're real smart. 266 00:16:20,190 --> 00:16:24,510 S1: You can't study philosophy as David Hume and, and Augustine 267 00:16:24,510 --> 00:16:27,510 S1: and all those, uh, you know, smart people, you, you, 268 00:16:27,550 --> 00:16:31,470 S1: you had a lot of intellect, uh, intellectual power and, 269 00:16:31,470 --> 00:16:35,590 S1: and reading and taking that in. But it was almost 270 00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:39,540 S1: as if that accident then caused you to harness the 271 00:16:39,540 --> 00:16:43,700 S1: purpose for which you were alive, rather than just going fast. 272 00:16:44,020 --> 00:16:47,940 S2: Exactly, exactly. There was no doubt that I had the 273 00:16:47,940 --> 00:16:52,900 S2: brains to succeed very well in college, but without my accident, 274 00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:55,460 S2: I think that I would have been so dissipated and 275 00:16:55,460 --> 00:16:59,980 S2: so scattered and so distracted by the wrong things, that 276 00:17:00,020 --> 00:17:02,500 S2: in fact, I as as I said, I don't think 277 00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:05,580 S2: I would have got through even my freshman year. I 278 00:17:05,580 --> 00:17:08,300 S2: ended up going to Seattle Pacific, and it was a 279 00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:10,939 S2: year and three months after my accident. I was walking 280 00:17:10,940 --> 00:17:14,859 S2: at the time with two canes and, um, people there. 281 00:17:14,859 --> 00:17:18,859 S2: David McKenna was president and a year later Frank Klein 282 00:17:18,859 --> 00:17:22,100 S2: came as dean of religion. And then Cliff Mccrath came 283 00:17:22,100 --> 00:17:24,659 S2: a year later as the dean of students. They spent 284 00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:29,660 S2: hundreds of hours with me, helping me to understand myself 285 00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:34,700 S2: and to understand how to help other hurting human beings. 286 00:17:34,820 --> 00:17:37,820 S1: Hmm. So. And I asked you this the last time 287 00:17:37,820 --> 00:17:40,060 S1: you were on, but, you know, did you find this 288 00:17:40,060 --> 00:17:44,139 S1: topic or did it find you and it found it 289 00:17:44,180 --> 00:17:47,859 S1: grabbed your heart. And this is another place where the 290 00:17:47,859 --> 00:17:50,980 S1: wound become, becomes a place of healing. The wound in 291 00:17:50,980 --> 00:17:54,660 S1: your own life becomes healing not only for you, but 292 00:17:54,660 --> 00:17:56,740 S1: also for others who are suffering. 293 00:17:57,100 --> 00:18:01,020 S2: That's right, that's right. As Paul says at the beginning 294 00:18:01,060 --> 00:18:03,580 S2: of is it first or second Corinthians? I think it's 295 00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:06,220 S2: First Corinthians. He talks about the fact that he and 296 00:18:06,220 --> 00:18:10,580 S2: Timothy had gone through things so awful that they despaired 297 00:18:10,580 --> 00:18:14,820 S2: of life itself. And yet he says, uh, God brought 298 00:18:14,820 --> 00:18:18,700 S2: us comfort in this, and that allows us to bring 299 00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:22,540 S2: you comfort. And so quite often what comes out of 300 00:18:22,540 --> 00:18:26,100 S2: suffering is that we're actually given a ministry, uh, if 301 00:18:26,140 --> 00:18:28,860 S2: we if we don't just wallow in our suffering, if 302 00:18:28,859 --> 00:18:32,860 S2: we think about how could it be that by means 303 00:18:32,859 --> 00:18:36,340 S2: of what I'm learning here, I could be useful to others. 304 00:18:36,780 --> 00:18:44,260 S2: Sometimes really remarkable opportunities for growth and for a sense 305 00:18:44,260 --> 00:18:47,460 S2: of our lives being rewarding and being what they ought 306 00:18:47,460 --> 00:18:49,580 S2: to be, come about through that. 307 00:18:49,619 --> 00:18:54,540 S1: Yes, but there is the double edged sword, because I 308 00:18:54,580 --> 00:18:57,220 S1: can try to make sense out of my life. I 309 00:18:57,220 --> 00:19:00,179 S1: can try to make, uh, you know, what's the purpose 310 00:19:00,180 --> 00:19:05,260 S1: behind this? And faith becomes, this is a this is 311 00:19:05,260 --> 00:19:07,620 S1: a note that I have played for. So we did 312 00:19:07,619 --> 00:19:11,340 S1: this yesterday. We played a clip of Robert Wolgemuth and 313 00:19:11,340 --> 00:19:15,100 S1: Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth talking about this very thing. And that 314 00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:19,660 S1: is Faith is not me figuring out what God is 315 00:19:19,660 --> 00:19:24,140 S1: doing in that big story. Faith is me trusting God 316 00:19:24,420 --> 00:19:27,260 S1: to get my life in alignment. As you talk about 317 00:19:27,260 --> 00:19:30,859 S1: in the book with him, to make sense of this 318 00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:33,930 S1: in the way that he wants to make sense of 319 00:19:33,930 --> 00:19:36,770 S1: it on his timetable. Do you agree with that? That's right. 320 00:19:36,970 --> 00:19:40,570 S2: Yeah. No, that's. That's right. And in fact, sometimes, uh, 321 00:19:40,570 --> 00:19:43,770 S2: our searching for why we are suffering in a particular 322 00:19:43,770 --> 00:19:47,050 S2: way is just futile. Uh, there are many times when 323 00:19:47,050 --> 00:19:49,570 S2: we're not going to know why we suffer the way 324 00:19:49,570 --> 00:19:53,010 S2: we do. Sometimes we do. Uh, like Paul and Timothy 325 00:19:53,010 --> 00:19:57,010 S2: understood that. Um, I think I've understood some of that 326 00:19:57,010 --> 00:20:00,610 S2: from my accident. But quite often what it comes to 327 00:20:00,650 --> 00:20:03,810 S2: is we just have to understand that it's our business 328 00:20:03,810 --> 00:20:11,410 S2: to be obedient, to show God our, um, our willingness 329 00:20:11,450 --> 00:20:17,530 S2: to live under the lash of the effects of sin 330 00:20:17,530 --> 00:20:20,570 S2: that affect the whole world and even Christians. 331 00:20:21,850 --> 00:20:25,610 S1: You are talking to some people who would say, though theologically, well, 332 00:20:25,650 --> 00:20:28,169 S1: God didn't do that. I mean, it was your fault. 333 00:20:28,210 --> 00:20:30,449 S1: You're a mistake to go out there and, you know, 334 00:20:30,490 --> 00:20:33,530 S1: take that risk and everything. He didn't do that to you. 335 00:20:33,570 --> 00:20:34,690 S1: What did he say to that? 336 00:20:35,010 --> 00:20:37,409 S2: Yeah, in a sense, that's that's true. I mean, we 337 00:20:37,410 --> 00:20:40,730 S2: do have a freedom, and the freedom gives us responsibility 338 00:20:40,730 --> 00:20:44,890 S2: and accountability. And yet, I think that one of the 339 00:20:44,890 --> 00:20:49,730 S2: deeper Christian truths is that everything that happens in this 340 00:20:49,730 --> 00:20:56,010 S2: world falls under God's providence, under his, um, having known 341 00:20:56,050 --> 00:20:59,330 S2: in advance even what our free decisions will be, and 342 00:20:59,330 --> 00:21:01,810 S2: they're still free decisions, that would take a lot of 343 00:21:01,810 --> 00:21:04,609 S2: philosophy for us to explain that so we won't. But 344 00:21:04,609 --> 00:21:09,890 S2: they are real free decisions. And yet within that framework, um, 345 00:21:10,290 --> 00:21:15,810 S2: nothing falls out of his hand. So, uh, with regard 346 00:21:15,810 --> 00:21:20,970 S2: to the sin and the wrongdoing, that, in fact, is, um, 347 00:21:21,250 --> 00:21:25,729 S2: produced by us with regard to the way in which 348 00:21:25,730 --> 00:21:29,090 S2: all of that can be used for the glory of 349 00:21:29,090 --> 00:21:32,970 S2: God that is wholly attributable to him. 350 00:21:34,490 --> 00:21:36,690 S1: There's a lot you just said right there. I'd have 351 00:21:36,690 --> 00:21:38,609 S1: to go back and listen to what you just said, 352 00:21:39,050 --> 00:21:41,810 S1: to figure it out, how I apply it. But the 353 00:21:41,810 --> 00:21:45,290 S1: great news is that this book will help you. Doctor 354 00:21:45,290 --> 00:21:50,850 S1: Mark Talbot's second volume in Of Suffering in the Christian Life, 355 00:21:50,850 --> 00:21:54,330 S1: give me understanding that I may live situating our suffering 356 00:21:54,330 --> 00:22:01,730 S1: within God's redemptive plan. It's our featured resource at Chris Fabric. Chris. Fabric. 357 00:22:04,290 --> 00:22:07,530 S1: I want you to go back to, um, to Genesis 358 00:22:07,690 --> 00:22:13,690 S1: and the rebellion and specifically talk about the serpent's strategy there, 359 00:22:13,690 --> 00:22:17,450 S1: because I see the serpent doing much the same thing 360 00:22:17,490 --> 00:22:22,290 S1: today is what he did in the garden being replicated today? 361 00:22:23,369 --> 00:22:28,130 S2: Yes. It seems to me that, um, the serpent quite 362 00:22:28,210 --> 00:22:33,080 S2: often works by trying to throw doubts into our minds 363 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,560 S2: about the trustworthiness of God. And as I say in 364 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,880 S2: the book, it seems that what the serpent, when he 365 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,280 S2: spoke to Eve, it seems that really what he was 366 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,160 S2: asking was, Did God really say that you can't eat 367 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,160 S2: from any tree in the garden? It doesn't read that 368 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,720 S2: way in the text, but in context. That's what it 369 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,480 S2: comes to. And she then jumps to God's defense and say, 370 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,080 S2: oh no, no, we can eat of all the trees 371 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,000 S2: except for one. But by that time he's got his 372 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,960 S2: grips in her mental life and is able to move 373 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,760 S2: forward in getting her to doubt that God has her 374 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,040 S2: best interests in mind. And of course, that's the way 375 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,280 S2: he works again and again. Especially when we suffer, we 376 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,920 S2: suffer and we find ourselves thinking, how could a good 377 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,680 S2: God allow this to happen to me? And that, of course, 378 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,720 S2: is ultimately the same sort of doubt or a similar 379 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,240 S2: doubt to the one that she had. 380 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,439 S1: Well, and apologists around the country, around the world deal 381 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,040 S1: with that question from people in the church and outside 382 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,720 S1: of the church every day. That is the one thing. 383 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,320 S1: How could a good God allow? And then you fill 384 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,440 S1: in the blank for any kind of suffering that's going 385 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,440 S1: on around the world. And it's it's a good question 386 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,359 S1: to to grapple with, isn't it? 387 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,600 S2: It is. Um, as C.S. Lewis says, suffering is ultimately 388 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,440 S2: God's megaphone. It is his way of speaking to us, 389 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,840 S2: we might say, shouting at us when the suffering is 390 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,920 S2: particularly grim. Um, and getting our attention and making us 391 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,640 S2: realize that things in this world are not the way 392 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,040 S2: that they are supposed to be. 393 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,040 S1: Yeah. I asked this question on our Facebook page. What 394 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:22,800 S1: suffering have you experienced that helped you get closer to God? 395 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,760 S1: And it you know, these questions can be kind of trite. 396 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,480 S1: And then I say explain because I don't want to know. Just, 397 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,160 S1: you know, what are you what have you gone through 398 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,920 S1: or what are you going through? But what is it 399 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,240 S1: that that called you closer? Because you know as well 400 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,800 S1: as I do, Doctor Talbott, suffering will push a lot 401 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,040 S1: of people away from God, right? 402 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,360 S2: Yeah, particularly over the short term. And this is one 403 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,840 S2: of the reasons we need to know the full Christian 404 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:53,800 S2: story of creation, rebellion, redemption, and ultimately consummation when Lewis's 405 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,240 S2: wife died. If you read A Grief Observed, you realize 406 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:03,879 S2: that that he was initially, um, very strongly tempted to 407 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,240 S2: believe that God could not be good, he says. I 408 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,639 S2: really didn't doubt his existence, but I doubted his goodness. 409 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,240 S2: And it was only as he thought his way through 410 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,040 S2: the fact that he had known all along that people die. 411 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,600 S2: He had known all along that people suffer. The Christians 412 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,520 S2: don't hide these things, that finally he was able to 413 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:29,510 S2: put his own suffering in a framework where he could say, um, 414 00:25:29,790 --> 00:25:32,910 S2: this ought not to turn me away from God and 415 00:25:32,910 --> 00:25:35,550 S2: the way that it initially inclined me to go. 416 00:25:36,030 --> 00:25:38,710 S1: Well, he experienced that with his mom, too. Very early 417 00:25:38,710 --> 00:25:41,109 S1: on in his life, he also said later on, you 418 00:25:41,150 --> 00:25:44,350 S1: quote him that we should live in cheerful insecurity. I 419 00:25:44,350 --> 00:25:46,990 S1: want to hear more about that from doctor Mark Talbott. 420 00:25:47,150 --> 00:25:49,990 S1: Give me understanding that I may live as our featured 421 00:25:49,990 --> 00:26:06,510 S1: resource at Chris Fabry Live. It's hard to hear. It's 422 00:26:06,510 --> 00:26:08,590 S1: hard for me to say, boy, I've been looking forward 423 00:26:08,590 --> 00:26:12,430 S1: to this program on suffering because nobody wants to suffer. 424 00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:13,830 S1: You know, we want it out of our lives. We 425 00:26:13,830 --> 00:26:18,430 S1: want comfort. We want ease. But I have never grown 426 00:26:18,430 --> 00:26:22,510 S1: in my Christian life without some kind of tension, some 427 00:26:22,510 --> 00:26:26,590 S1: kind of A big question hanging over my life, or 428 00:26:27,030 --> 00:26:31,429 S1: some kind of suffering that God has at least allowed. 429 00:26:31,590 --> 00:26:33,869 S1: So we're going to talk about it today. Doctor Mark 430 00:26:33,910 --> 00:26:37,909 S1: Talbot has written the second volume of suffering in the 431 00:26:37,910 --> 00:26:41,310 S1: Christian Life. It's titled give me understanding that I May live. 432 00:26:41,630 --> 00:26:46,350 S1: Situating our suffering within God's redemptive plan. You can find 433 00:26:46,350 --> 00:26:51,590 S1: it at Chris. I quoted Lewis before the break, and 434 00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:54,350 S1: let me ask you, I'll read from your own book. 435 00:26:54,390 --> 00:26:56,470 S1: Late in his life, when he and his loved ones 436 00:26:56,470 --> 00:27:00,590 S1: were suffering in various ways, C.S. Lewis observed that we 437 00:27:00,590 --> 00:27:05,870 S1: should live in cheerful insecurity. This, he said, is one 438 00:27:05,869 --> 00:27:10,270 S1: of the simplest and earliest Christian lessons, but one we 439 00:27:10,270 --> 00:27:15,429 S1: usually come to learn late and surprised. Unpack that for me. 440 00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:19,790 S2: Uh, that's in a book on all of Lewis's spiritual 441 00:27:19,790 --> 00:27:24,790 S2: advice called yours Jack, And he mentions more than once 442 00:27:24,790 --> 00:27:28,230 S2: when he has people write him and something has happened 443 00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:31,189 S2: to them, and they're wondering how their future is going 444 00:27:31,190 --> 00:27:35,750 S2: to unfold, that, uh, that as human beings, we need 445 00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:39,030 S2: to live in cheerful insecurity because we do not know 446 00:27:39,190 --> 00:27:42,630 S2: the future, what we can know, what we can be 447 00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:46,110 S2: cheerful about. So to put it, is the fact that 448 00:27:46,109 --> 00:27:50,470 S2: that future does not fall out of the loving fathers, 449 00:27:50,750 --> 00:27:54,869 S2: our loving fathers hands. Um, and and it seems to 450 00:27:54,910 --> 00:27:57,870 S2: me that the point he's making, which he did learn 451 00:27:57,869 --> 00:28:01,510 S2: only pretty late in his life, I think basically after 452 00:28:01,510 --> 00:28:04,670 S2: his wife died, is, um, a lesson that we get, 453 00:28:04,670 --> 00:28:08,229 S2: for instance, in Psalm 90, where, uh, the end of 454 00:28:08,230 --> 00:28:12,350 S2: the psalm talks about, uh, all after after it talks 455 00:28:12,350 --> 00:28:14,590 S2: about all the ways in which things can go wrong 456 00:28:14,590 --> 00:28:19,230 S2: in this life. It it pleads with God to establish 457 00:28:19,230 --> 00:28:23,820 S2: the work of our hands, which means that we can't 458 00:28:23,820 --> 00:28:28,180 S2: assume that our efforts are going to establish the work 459 00:28:28,180 --> 00:28:31,899 S2: of our hands. That depends upon God and His God 460 00:28:31,940 --> 00:28:35,540 S2: blessing what we do. And God's blessing what we do. 461 00:28:35,780 --> 00:28:38,980 S2: And once again, that involves this kind of cheerful insecurity 462 00:28:38,980 --> 00:28:41,980 S2: that you and I don't know, Chris, that we have 463 00:28:41,980 --> 00:28:45,900 S2: even one more day to live. And yet, if we 464 00:28:45,940 --> 00:28:49,940 S2: are convinced of the truth of the Christian faith, we 465 00:28:49,940 --> 00:28:53,700 S2: can be cheerful about the fact that whether we live 466 00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:56,300 S2: or die, we will be with the Lord. 467 00:28:57,500 --> 00:29:00,459 S1: And we don't have to know all of the answers 468 00:29:00,460 --> 00:29:03,620 S1: to every question that we long, that we think we 469 00:29:03,620 --> 00:29:04,980 S1: long to know. Right. 470 00:29:05,020 --> 00:29:06,340 S2: That's right. That's right. 471 00:29:06,580 --> 00:29:09,580 S1: Yeah. Uh, okay. During the break, I'm going to let 472 00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:12,260 S1: you in on this, folks. I said to Doctor Talbott, 473 00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:14,020 S1: what am I missing? Where do we need to go? 474 00:29:14,020 --> 00:29:16,380 S1: And he said, well, if if you would like, we 475 00:29:16,380 --> 00:29:20,740 S1: could talk about causal regularities. And after he talked about that, 476 00:29:20,780 --> 00:29:25,780 S1: I couldn't follow him anymore. But. But bringing this down 477 00:29:25,780 --> 00:29:28,860 S1: to you and me, let's say somebody who's listening right 478 00:29:28,860 --> 00:29:33,260 S1: now has had a diagnosis, a cancer diagnosis, and they're 479 00:29:33,300 --> 00:29:37,380 S1: wondering why. Why did God allow this? Did God choose me? 480 00:29:37,420 --> 00:29:39,940 S1: Did he throw a dart and it hit my name. 481 00:29:39,940 --> 00:29:44,660 S1: And that's why I get cancer. Um, unpack that for me. 482 00:29:45,060 --> 00:29:47,500 S2: That's. That's really a good way to kind of set 483 00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:51,340 S2: up the problem, Chris, that, uh, Christians knowing that we 484 00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:54,540 S2: ought to pray with no matter what happens to us 485 00:29:54,540 --> 00:29:56,820 S2: and that God, in fact, is in charge of everything, 486 00:29:56,860 --> 00:30:00,740 S2: can all too easily think that when something like a 487 00:30:00,780 --> 00:30:04,940 S2: cancer diagnosis comes, that God has pointed a finger at 488 00:30:04,940 --> 00:30:09,260 S2: us and said, okay, uh, Mark, you get cancer. But 489 00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:11,820 S2: in fact, it seems to me that the biblical picture 490 00:30:11,820 --> 00:30:14,420 S2: is quite different than that. If you look at the 491 00:30:14,420 --> 00:30:18,140 S2: first chapter of Genesis, in fact, going through the second chapter, 492 00:30:18,180 --> 00:30:21,580 S2: the third verse, you realize that the way that God 493 00:30:21,580 --> 00:30:25,940 S2: created things was ordered and that it involved his setting 494 00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:30,940 S2: up certain, we could say, causal regularities. Uh, non-Christians might 495 00:30:30,980 --> 00:30:33,580 S2: talk about causal laws. The problem with talking that way 496 00:30:33,580 --> 00:30:37,220 S2: is that causal laws sound as if they're inviolable. And that, 497 00:30:37,220 --> 00:30:39,260 S2: in fact, led David Hume to say, well, there can't 498 00:30:39,260 --> 00:30:42,340 S2: be any miracles, and therefore we can't believe the Christian faith. 499 00:30:42,460 --> 00:30:44,700 S2: But I think really what it comes to is this 500 00:30:44,700 --> 00:30:47,980 S2: our God created the world out of nothing, and it 501 00:30:47,980 --> 00:30:53,460 S2: continues to exist only because he continues to sustain it 502 00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:57,420 S2: and hold it in existence. But the world he created 503 00:30:57,420 --> 00:31:02,260 S2: was meant to be. As Isaiah 4518 said, says, an 504 00:31:02,260 --> 00:31:05,220 S2: inhabitable place. It was supposed to be a place where 505 00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:09,620 S2: human beings could overall make some sense of it. And 506 00:31:09,620 --> 00:31:13,620 S2: these causal regularities he put in the world, such as gravity. 507 00:31:13,780 --> 00:31:16,020 S2: If I hold something up that's heavier than air and 508 00:31:16,020 --> 00:31:20,850 S2: I let it go, it's going to drop the temperature 509 00:31:20,970 --> 00:31:23,730 S2: at which water boils at sea level. And all those 510 00:31:23,730 --> 00:31:27,770 S2: sorts of things, those causal regularities make up what in 511 00:31:27,770 --> 00:31:30,410 S2: fact we can call nature. And it's not wrong to 512 00:31:30,410 --> 00:31:33,850 S2: call nature, which in fact are the ways that God 513 00:31:33,850 --> 00:31:39,210 S2: generally works providentially. Now then, what ends up happening, according 514 00:31:39,250 --> 00:31:44,130 S2: to Romans eight is that because of sin, those causal 515 00:31:44,130 --> 00:31:50,450 S2: regularities transmit not merely good things, but also things that 516 00:31:50,450 --> 00:31:54,530 S2: aren't so good, such as viruses, such as what? Some 517 00:31:54,530 --> 00:31:58,010 S2: cancers that have a genetic element to them. You're being 518 00:31:58,010 --> 00:32:01,410 S2: likely to get cancer because you have that gene. All 519 00:32:01,410 --> 00:32:04,130 S2: of those sorts of things are part of this world, 520 00:32:04,130 --> 00:32:08,090 S2: and Christians as well as non-Christians are going to suffer 521 00:32:08,090 --> 00:32:12,690 S2: under those things. That's where we have a place then 522 00:32:12,890 --> 00:32:17,650 S2: to show as we suffer those ways that that in 523 00:32:17,650 --> 00:32:21,050 S2: fact doesn't destroy our faith, because we understand that this 524 00:32:21,050 --> 00:32:23,730 S2: is part of the way that God made the world 525 00:32:23,850 --> 00:32:25,810 S2: in order for it to be the kind of world 526 00:32:25,810 --> 00:32:28,970 S2: that we as human beings can live in and can 527 00:32:28,970 --> 00:32:34,130 S2: improve in various ways. So ultimately, what it comes to 528 00:32:34,170 --> 00:32:38,650 S2: is that we we need to realize that we always pray, um, 529 00:32:39,050 --> 00:32:42,410 S2: both for health and when we get sick, for the 530 00:32:42,410 --> 00:32:45,970 S2: fact that that we would like God to deliver us. 531 00:32:45,970 --> 00:32:49,930 S2: And sometimes he will, because the causal regularities, of course, 532 00:32:49,930 --> 00:32:52,610 S2: are held in place by him, and he can if 533 00:32:52,610 --> 00:32:56,450 S2: he wants to modify and change them. But in general, 534 00:32:56,450 --> 00:33:00,290 S2: he's not going to change them. In general, uh, our 535 00:33:00,370 --> 00:33:03,690 S2: life is going to be lived within this framework of 536 00:33:03,690 --> 00:33:06,650 S2: these regularities. I don't know if that makes any sense. Chris. 537 00:33:06,690 --> 00:33:07,610 S2: That's pretty quick. 538 00:33:07,970 --> 00:33:11,730 S1: It. No, it does. But the first person that I 539 00:33:11,730 --> 00:33:16,290 S1: think of in Scripture about that is job because here's 540 00:33:16,290 --> 00:33:19,490 S1: job living his life and all his family and everything. 541 00:33:19,490 --> 00:33:22,330 S1: He's got cattle and he's got kids and all. Everything's 542 00:33:22,330 --> 00:33:27,090 S1: going okay. And then Satan comes to to God. And 543 00:33:27,090 --> 00:33:30,570 S1: the Lord says, have you considered my servant job? And 544 00:33:30,570 --> 00:33:32,610 S1: I get to that place in Scripture every time. And 545 00:33:32,610 --> 00:33:35,930 S1: I think, no, no, don't say it, don't say it. It's, 546 00:33:35,930 --> 00:33:39,250 S1: you know, it's calamity, it's catastrophe. It's going to happen. 547 00:33:39,250 --> 00:33:43,450 S1: But God is the one who brings job up. And 548 00:33:43,450 --> 00:33:46,690 S1: so how does that fit in with the causal regularity? 549 00:33:46,850 --> 00:33:50,370 S2: Yeah, I talk about that in the first book. And 550 00:33:50,410 --> 00:33:53,810 S2: when the stars disappear, uh, it's as if God put 551 00:33:53,810 --> 00:33:58,330 S2: job in Satan's gunsights. And it seems that God did 552 00:33:58,330 --> 00:34:02,010 S2: that in order to be able to show that job, 553 00:34:02,010 --> 00:34:07,090 S2: in fact, wasn't mercenary in his worship of God. As 554 00:34:07,090 --> 00:34:10,090 S2: I read the story of job, it seems to me 555 00:34:10,330 --> 00:34:12,969 S2: that everything we see about what went wrong with him, 556 00:34:12,969 --> 00:34:15,040 S2: all of the description makes it sound as if it's 557 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,960 S2: an autoimmune disease, that it's something pretty similar to what 558 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,320 S2: the HIV virus causes. Although of course, in job's case, 559 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,560 S2: it wasn't caused by any sinfulness. But somehow all of 560 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:31,920 S2: these causal regularities, um, with Satan kind of touching, um, 561 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,240 S2: the way in which, uh, they affected job meant that 562 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:41,200 S2: here he's, uh, sitting on an ash heap, scraping himself 563 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:46,160 S2: with broken pottery and in just intense pain of every 564 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:52,280 S2: sort that is part of these causal regularities, uh, causing 565 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,160 S2: the kind of suffering that he, in fact, experienced. 566 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,000 S1: So you're not calling us, then, to some kind of 567 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:06,759 S1: asceticism that, uh, downplays the human response to suffering, and 568 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,520 S1: it doesn't really matter. Or just plugging our ears, uh, 569 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:16,520 S1: when when the struggle comes. You humanly as look at 570 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,839 S1: Jesus walking through. He was he was feeling every bit 571 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,799 S1: of this both emotionally and physically and spiritually. What he 572 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,160 S1: was going through in the garden and all the way 573 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,880 S1: to the cross. Right? 574 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:36,200 S2: No. That's right. And he showed God's compassion with all 575 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,120 S2: these people who had various things that had gone wrong 576 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,200 S2: with them. Uh, and in that way was giving us 577 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,440 S2: a kind of glimpse of the future, of the way 578 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,600 S2: that it will be for those who have put their 579 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,399 S2: faith in God's work in Christ. Um, when finally there 580 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,680 S2: will be no more suffering, no more sorrow, no more 581 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,320 S2: tears in the consummation. 582 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,759 S1: There is a question in this book, and it is, 583 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,280 S1: Why is God not to be blamed for our suffering? 584 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,439 S1: And I want Doctor Talbot to answer that question. Give 585 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,040 S1: me understanding that I may live situating our suffering within 586 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,719 S1: God's redemptive plan. It's volume two in the series suffering 587 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,640 S1: in the Christian Life. There will be two more after this, 588 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,359 S1: and he's working on that now. But I wanted you 589 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,160 S1: to hear from Doctor Talbot today, especially if you're going 590 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:43,319 S1: through some deep water. There's more straight ahead. Doctor Michael 591 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,279 S1: Rudnick is going to join us tomorrow on Chris Fabry Live. Now, 592 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,200 S1: the two Michaels are coming up a little later in 593 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,120 S1: the month, but I asked Michael to stop by the 594 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,200 S1: studio and talk about how how should Christians think about Israel? 595 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,719 S1: It's his new little concise but pointed book that is 596 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,440 S1: a quick guide to God's covenants, biblical prophecy, and the 597 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,880 S1: Jewish people. We're giving it to anybody who gives a 598 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,590 S1: gift of any size. And you can find out more 599 00:37:09,630 --> 00:37:15,709 S1: at Chris. Favorite Chris favorite divorce? Where if you click 600 00:37:15,710 --> 00:37:18,910 S1: through today's information, you can hear this conversation again, and 601 00:37:18,910 --> 00:37:20,669 S1: I need to listen to it about 3 or 4 602 00:37:20,670 --> 00:37:23,910 S1: different times to to get everything here that Doctor Talbert 603 00:37:23,950 --> 00:37:27,549 S1: is talking about. But the volume two of suffering in 604 00:37:27,550 --> 00:37:31,190 S1: the Christian Life, this series give me understanding that I 605 00:37:31,190 --> 00:37:34,950 S1: may live situating our suffering within God's redemptive plan. We 606 00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:39,670 S1: have that linked right there at Chris Dot. Now I 607 00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:43,510 S1: have a burning question about why we should not blame 608 00:37:43,550 --> 00:37:46,950 S1: God for our suffering, but I want you to start 609 00:37:46,950 --> 00:37:49,509 S1: in this segment before we end here and tell us 610 00:37:49,510 --> 00:37:52,509 S1: about Robert Dabney. What do we need to learn from 611 00:37:52,510 --> 00:37:53,310 S1: his life? 612 00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:57,669 S2: Robert Dabney was a southern theologian. Um, he lived in 613 00:37:57,670 --> 00:38:03,150 S2: the 1800s, mid 1800s. And I close my third chapter 614 00:38:03,150 --> 00:38:07,350 S2: on suffering by talking about the suffering that he went through. Uh, 615 00:38:07,350 --> 00:38:10,710 S2: the story that I tell is of his loss, Chris. 616 00:38:10,710 --> 00:38:16,109 S2: Of three of his sons to diphtheria. Uh, nowadays we 617 00:38:16,110 --> 00:38:20,310 S2: have a vaccine that stops people from getting diphtheria. And 618 00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:24,469 S2: Robert Dabney's time, there was no such thing. And, uh, 619 00:38:24,469 --> 00:38:27,950 S2: he talks about losing his second son, who was five 620 00:38:27,950 --> 00:38:32,990 S2: years old. First, um, what diphtheria does is it tends 621 00:38:32,989 --> 00:38:37,390 S2: to put a film to a film, grows over your airway, 622 00:38:37,390 --> 00:38:40,790 S2: and so you end up mute and you can't speak. 623 00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:44,790 S2: And he talks about Jimmy's liquid, a beautiful liquid, eyes 624 00:38:44,950 --> 00:38:47,630 S2: looking at him and pleading with him and his wife 625 00:38:47,630 --> 00:38:52,190 S2: as he died. And then, in fact, just three days later, 626 00:38:52,710 --> 00:38:58,070 S2: his first son, Bobby, died. Jimmy was his second son, 627 00:38:58,070 --> 00:39:00,590 S2: and he talks about that, and he talks about the 628 00:39:00,590 --> 00:39:04,310 S2: way in which, um, when Jimmy died, he could still 629 00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:08,430 S2: put his faith in God when Bobby died, he found 630 00:39:08,430 --> 00:39:11,549 S2: it a little more difficult. Some years later, he had 631 00:39:11,550 --> 00:39:14,109 S2: a third son die, and he found that it was 632 00:39:14,110 --> 00:39:19,390 S2: just really, really hard to believe that God's loving hand 633 00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:23,670 S2: could be in the whole situation. But he did not 634 00:39:23,670 --> 00:39:29,270 S2: lose his faith. He reminded himself that, in fact, we're 635 00:39:29,270 --> 00:39:33,430 S2: told in first Peter that these sorts of things happen 636 00:39:33,670 --> 00:39:40,550 S2: to Christians and that it is the place of Christians to, um, 637 00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:43,830 S2: hold on to their faith in in the midst of 638 00:39:43,830 --> 00:39:47,950 S2: what they can't understand. Dabney's story is really, when you 639 00:39:47,950 --> 00:39:52,990 S2: think about it, um, an illustration of how these causal 640 00:39:52,989 --> 00:39:56,670 S2: regularities that I talked about work out in the world, 641 00:39:56,670 --> 00:40:01,109 S2: because it was the infection that these sons got from 642 00:40:01,110 --> 00:40:06,260 S2: diphtheria that worked its way through their systems, through their 643 00:40:06,260 --> 00:40:13,739 S2: biological systems, and ultimately killed them. Uh, God did not remove, um, 644 00:40:14,460 --> 00:40:18,500 S2: he didn't alter those laws. Although I'm sure that Daphne. 645 00:40:18,540 --> 00:40:23,580 S2: Prayed earnestly that he would. So God does not always 646 00:40:23,820 --> 00:40:28,500 S2: answer those prayers. And yet. Dabney was able to hang 647 00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:32,260 S2: on to his faith by thinking through the way that 648 00:40:32,260 --> 00:40:36,100 S2: in the midst of fiery trials, Peter tells us God's 649 00:40:36,100 --> 00:40:40,940 S2: people can survive and show that in fact, they have 650 00:40:40,940 --> 00:40:43,779 S2: a live faith in the work of Christ Jesus. 651 00:40:44,380 --> 00:40:47,820 S1: Far be it from somebody like me to correct someone 652 00:40:47,820 --> 00:40:50,300 S1: like you. But what you just said, I want, I 653 00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:51,940 S1: want to see if you agree with me on this, 654 00:40:52,260 --> 00:40:56,219 S1: that God does not always answer our prayers. I would 655 00:40:56,219 --> 00:41:00,980 S1: say he doesn't always answer yes to every prayer, but 656 00:41:00,980 --> 00:41:06,740 S1: he does answer those prayers, uh, in in some way, 657 00:41:06,739 --> 00:41:09,540 S1: shape or form. He may say yes, he may say no. 658 00:41:09,540 --> 00:41:13,780 S1: He may say wait. But there's always he always hears us, right? 659 00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:17,420 S2: No, no, I think that's exactly right. I was using 660 00:41:17,420 --> 00:41:20,379 S2: language that, in a sense, was too colloquial, Chris, with 661 00:41:20,380 --> 00:41:23,180 S2: the way that it seems that it seems as if 662 00:41:23,180 --> 00:41:26,580 S2: heaven is shut to us rather than, in fact, what 663 00:41:26,580 --> 00:41:27,819 S2: is actually happening. 664 00:41:27,820 --> 00:41:31,020 S1: And but the reason why I said that is because 665 00:41:31,060 --> 00:41:35,140 S1: I have to say that to me, myself. Right? You know, when. 666 00:41:35,180 --> 00:41:38,660 S1: So as we prayed for Robert Wolgemuth on Christmas Eve, 667 00:41:38,700 --> 00:41:40,700 S1: he went into the hospital and he had a lot 668 00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:43,820 S1: of fluid in his lungs. And there were things that were, 669 00:41:43,980 --> 00:41:46,300 S1: you know, just, oh, please, God. And there are people 670 00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:49,060 S1: around the country or people around the world were praying. 671 00:41:49,580 --> 00:41:53,299 S1: And it happened last week that it was like, this 672 00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:56,859 S1: is not going to be reversed. Those causal regularities are 673 00:41:56,900 --> 00:41:59,700 S1: going to have their way. Yeah. And so they had 674 00:41:59,700 --> 00:42:03,100 S1: to make the the decision with the doctors and the 675 00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:07,339 S1: family to say, no, we're we're not going to go 676 00:42:07,340 --> 00:42:10,700 S1: into any more heroic efforts, you know? And so in 677 00:42:10,739 --> 00:42:14,739 S1: that sense, God did answer our prayers because of his 678 00:42:14,739 --> 00:42:18,340 S1: faith in Jesus. He was healed, but not in the 679 00:42:18,340 --> 00:42:21,020 S1: way that we wanted at the time. Right? 680 00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:25,259 S2: No, that's that's right. And and when Paul says that 681 00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:27,859 S2: whether he lives or dies, he will be with the 682 00:42:27,860 --> 00:42:31,260 S2: Lord and he recognizes it in some sense, dying is 683 00:42:31,260 --> 00:42:34,379 S2: better than living. Uh, in a sense, we could say 684 00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:38,780 S2: that God was answering the prayers that were being made, um, 685 00:42:39,060 --> 00:42:44,220 S2: and Smith's case by giving him the better of the options. 686 00:42:44,739 --> 00:42:48,419 S1: Yes. Okay. So circle back then to the question, why 687 00:42:48,420 --> 00:42:51,100 S1: is God not to be blamed for our suffering, then? 688 00:42:51,140 --> 00:42:57,060 S2: Um, uh, ultimately, if Christianity is true, God creates everything 689 00:42:57,100 --> 00:42:59,940 S2: out of nothing, what's called ex nihilo. So in other words, 690 00:42:59,940 --> 00:43:04,650 S2: nothing exists unless God brings it into existence and keeps 691 00:43:04,650 --> 00:43:10,009 S2: it in existence, and all life is ultimately from God. Uh, 692 00:43:10,010 --> 00:43:14,610 S2: plant life, animal life, finally human life or personal life, 693 00:43:14,610 --> 00:43:17,530 S2: which is the kind of life we have, uh, God 694 00:43:17,530 --> 00:43:21,410 S2: is not to be blamed for the suffering that we 695 00:43:21,410 --> 00:43:25,650 S2: go through, which is caused by the fact that our 696 00:43:25,650 --> 00:43:33,010 S2: first parents, uh, rather than accepting God's invitation to, um, 697 00:43:33,130 --> 00:43:39,730 S2: make a, um, definite, um, um, um, how do I 698 00:43:39,730 --> 00:43:45,009 S2: want to put it a definite, irrevocable decision to be 699 00:43:45,050 --> 00:43:49,890 S2: in the closest of communion with him, rather than doing 700 00:43:49,890 --> 00:43:55,009 S2: that by saying we will never eat of the forbidden tree. Rather, 701 00:43:55,410 --> 00:43:58,690 S2: Eve listened to the serpent. They ate of the tree 702 00:43:58,770 --> 00:44:03,450 S2: that cut the spiritual lifeline between God and human beings, 703 00:44:03,450 --> 00:44:07,969 S2: and all human suffering ends up coming out of the 704 00:44:07,969 --> 00:44:11,650 S2: fact that that spiritual lifeline has been sundered or cut. 705 00:44:11,770 --> 00:44:15,890 S2: It isn't something that God did. It's something that we 706 00:44:16,210 --> 00:44:16,969 S2: have done. 707 00:44:18,250 --> 00:44:21,169 S1: We had a whole program on that right there. No. 708 00:44:21,210 --> 00:44:25,570 S1: That is. Yeah, that is deep. Okay. Last question. Um, 709 00:44:25,890 --> 00:44:28,730 S1: it sounds like you. You're musical too. Did you have 710 00:44:28,730 --> 00:44:29,730 S1: music training? 711 00:44:29,850 --> 00:44:30,650 S2: Yeah, I did. 712 00:44:30,890 --> 00:44:33,890 S1: Okay. You write in one of the footnotes in Western 713 00:44:33,890 --> 00:44:37,290 S1: tonal music, a musical cord involving three or more tones 714 00:44:37,290 --> 00:44:41,890 S1: played together is dissonant. When it sounds unstable and thus 715 00:44:41,890 --> 00:44:47,890 S1: tense or restless, the tension we hear in dissonance requires resolution, 716 00:44:47,890 --> 00:44:53,730 S1: and thus dissonant chords lean forward, seeking consonance in chords 717 00:44:53,730 --> 00:44:57,170 S1: that are stable and restful. And I think that sums 718 00:44:57,170 --> 00:45:00,970 S1: up my Christian life. It's like I want. I don't 719 00:45:00,969 --> 00:45:04,410 S1: like this dissonance that I'm feeling in my life for 720 00:45:04,410 --> 00:45:07,969 S1: whatever the suffering or the struggles or the questions. And 721 00:45:07,969 --> 00:45:11,010 S1: I don't know, I want the resolution and I don't 722 00:45:11,010 --> 00:45:15,210 S1: have it. And we need to learn more to live 723 00:45:15,210 --> 00:45:19,250 S1: in the irresolution or the dissonance. Do you agree with that? 724 00:45:19,489 --> 00:45:23,770 S2: That's right. Looking forward to the final resolution. That will 725 00:45:23,770 --> 00:45:26,610 S2: only come when our Lord comes back. 726 00:45:28,570 --> 00:45:34,770 S1: Oh, come soon, Lord Jesus. Yes, right. Amen. Uh, Doctor Talbert, 727 00:45:34,810 --> 00:45:37,330 S1: I now I know why I really wanted to have 728 00:45:37,330 --> 00:45:39,370 S1: you back on this program. And I can't wait for 729 00:45:39,370 --> 00:45:42,610 S1: volume three. You're working on it right now. Any ideas? 730 00:45:42,610 --> 00:45:44,770 S1: It's going to be a year or two. How long? 731 00:45:45,050 --> 00:45:46,330 S2: A couple of years, at least. 732 00:45:48,170 --> 00:45:50,689 S1: You know what? But. But take, take all the time 733 00:45:50,690 --> 00:45:53,770 S1: you need. Because I can tell it's going to be 734 00:45:53,770 --> 00:45:58,200 S1: a really deep writing and then a good discussion. God 735 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,720 S1: bless you, friend. Thanks a lot for coming alongside us today. 736 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,800 S2: Thanks for having me today, Chris. God bless you. 737 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,879 S1: If you go to Chris, you'll see that volume two 738 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,880 S1: and the suffering of the Christian Life series. Give me 739 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:16,719 S1: understanding that I may live situating our suffering within God's 740 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:21,160 S1: redemptive plan. And I love that word situating because it 741 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,800 S1: gives us it gives us a choice. It's a choice 742 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,640 S1: in how you respond to the suffering in your life. 743 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,760 S1: And the first volume was titled When the Stars Disappear 744 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,520 S1: Help and Hope from Stories of Suffering in Scripture again. 745 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:40,600 S1: Find out more at Chris. Doctor Michael is back tomorrow 746 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,239 S1: right here at the back fence. Chris Fabry Live is 747 00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,560 S1: a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. 748 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:48,520 S1: Thanks for listening.