1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,559 S1: Today at the radio backyard fence, we get to talk 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,799 S1: with the apologetics guy. I've heard so much about our 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:16,000 S1: guest today, doctor Del Rosario. He has his own YouTube channel. 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,000 S1: I want you to hear what makes him tick. And 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,560 S1: our first conversation will be about the weighty topics of 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,480 S1: the divinity of Jesus. Try this. Somebody knocks at your 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,240 S1: door and you start talking about Jesus, and you find 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,120 S1: they don't believe he said he was God. Or you 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,040 S1: have a friend at work who is of another religion 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,760 S1: or a family member, maybe somebody you're going to break 11 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,760 S1: bread and turkey with this week who says, look, Jesus 12 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,960 S1: was a good teacher. He said some wonderful things about 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,519 S1: love and unity and turning the other cheek, but claiming 14 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,960 S1: to be God that was manufactured. He never said that. 15 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,800 S1: That's a fairy tale. How would you respond to that? 16 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,600 S1: Or maybe that's a question you're struggling with. It's not 17 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,790 S1: about people who are coming over for Thanksgiving is about you. 18 00:01:00,950 --> 00:01:04,150 S1: Some answers and good questions are coming up straight ahead 19 00:01:04,390 --> 00:01:06,710 S1: on Chris Fabry Live. The program from the heart to 20 00:01:06,750 --> 00:01:08,590 S1: the heart for the heart, and we thank our team. 21 00:01:08,590 --> 00:01:11,990 S1: Ryan McConaughey and Tricia are out today. Tricia, I know 22 00:01:12,030 --> 00:01:14,350 S1: Trish is going to be gone. Ryan had some car trouble, 23 00:01:14,350 --> 00:01:16,789 S1: so look at who's here. The team of Sea Guard 24 00:01:16,790 --> 00:01:20,110 S1: and EMT Chris and Lisa are in their places today. 25 00:01:20,110 --> 00:01:23,270 S1: Josh will be answering your calls today. And the other 26 00:01:23,270 --> 00:01:25,709 S1: part of the team is you. Friend, thank you for listening. 27 00:01:25,709 --> 00:01:28,669 S1: Thank you for suggesting this program to others. There's somebody 28 00:01:28,670 --> 00:01:31,350 S1: in your life who needs to hear the conversation we're 29 00:01:31,350 --> 00:01:34,510 S1: about to have, and you can send them that link 30 00:01:34,510 --> 00:01:37,550 S1: if you'd like. Some of you even go the extra 31 00:01:37,550 --> 00:01:40,150 S1: mile and support what we do, and now would be 32 00:01:40,150 --> 00:01:43,350 S1: an opportune time to do that here during this last 33 00:01:43,350 --> 00:01:46,950 S1: week of November. Can you believe that Monday is December? 34 00:01:47,430 --> 00:01:50,230 S1: We are offering a special thank you for the next 35 00:01:50,230 --> 00:01:53,550 S1: few days. The last few days of December. I chose 36 00:01:53,550 --> 00:01:56,310 S1: this for your kids and your grandkids. You know the 37 00:01:56,310 --> 00:01:59,860 S1: story of A Christmas Carol by Mr. Dickens. This coloring 38 00:01:59,860 --> 00:02:04,660 S1: and activity book casts that tale with woodland animals, illustrated 39 00:02:04,660 --> 00:02:08,140 S1: by Jo Sutphen. It is fantastic. There are word jumbles 40 00:02:08,139 --> 00:02:11,660 S1: and mazes and crossword puzzles, puzzles and of course, pictures 41 00:02:12,020 --> 00:02:16,060 S1: to color. Go to Chris. Org. Scroll down, you'll see 42 00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:18,900 S1: it right there and you can support the program and 43 00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:22,820 S1: receive the little Christmas Carol Coloring and Activity book. Get 44 00:02:22,820 --> 00:02:25,220 S1: those children off their screens and put this in front 45 00:02:25,220 --> 00:02:29,179 S1: of them and see what happens. Chris Fabbri, Livorno. Or 46 00:02:29,180 --> 00:02:36,859 S1: you can call us 866958669532279. And thank you for your 47 00:02:36,860 --> 00:02:40,740 S1: support here at the end of November. Doctor Mikhail del 48 00:02:40,740 --> 00:02:45,419 S1: Rosario helps Christians find clear answers to tough questions about Christianity. 49 00:02:45,460 --> 00:02:49,580 S1: He teaches apologetics, philosophy and Bible as a professor of 50 00:02:49,580 --> 00:02:53,860 S1: Bible and theology at Moody Bible Institute. Before coming to Moody, 51 00:02:53,900 --> 00:02:57,889 S1: he spent a decade teaching apologetics and world religion at 52 00:02:57,889 --> 00:03:01,770 S1: William Jessup University in California. He also worked at the 53 00:03:01,770 --> 00:03:06,049 S1: Hendricks Center of Dallas Theological Seminary. I mentioned his YouTube channel. 54 00:03:06,370 --> 00:03:09,370 S1: We have links to the apologetics guy at the website. 55 00:03:09,370 --> 00:03:16,210 S1: Chris and his first book featured resource. Did Jesus really 56 00:03:16,250 --> 00:03:20,290 S1: say he was God? Making sense of his historical claims. 57 00:03:20,330 --> 00:03:24,970 S1: Just go to Chris Live.com. Doctor del Rosario, welcome to 58 00:03:24,970 --> 00:03:26,450 S1: the program. How are you doing today? 59 00:03:26,570 --> 00:03:28,850 S2: Thanks so much, Chris. I'm doing great. I just finished 60 00:03:28,850 --> 00:03:32,010 S2: teaching biblical ethics here at the Moody Bible Institute. Taught 61 00:03:32,050 --> 00:03:34,810 S2: Bible intro this morning. Uh, love the students. Love my 62 00:03:34,810 --> 00:03:36,610 S2: time here. So I'm out of a great day. 63 00:03:36,970 --> 00:03:39,810 S1: Getting ready for Thanksgiving. You're going to going to be 64 00:03:39,810 --> 00:03:42,050 S1: home for Thanksgiving. You're not traveling, right? 65 00:03:42,050 --> 00:03:44,410 S2: Oh, yeah. No, I'm local here. So now I'm to 66 00:03:44,450 --> 00:03:48,570 S2: the point where my son comes to visit me like that. 67 00:03:48,930 --> 00:03:51,010 S1: Okay? And you and your wife have been married. You 68 00:03:51,010 --> 00:03:53,690 S1: told me 26 years. You look way too much young. 69 00:03:53,730 --> 00:03:57,880 S1: You can't be married 26 years, who first of all, 70 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,280 S1: big question, who is Mikel del Rosario? Who are you? 71 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,760 S2: Well, who am I? Well, I'm an ambassador of Jesus. 72 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,000 S2: I'm a child of God, and nobody can take that 73 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,280 S2: away from you if you are a child of the Lord. Man, 74 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,760 S2: that's the most important thing is to say that I'm 75 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,840 S2: a servant of God. I'm an ambassador. I'm a child 76 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,640 S2: of God. But, you know, I also like to play guitar. 77 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,520 S2: I also like to sing. I also like to do YouTube. And, uh, 78 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,000 S2: I'm a professor as well. But I was a communications 79 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,599 S2: major in college, so I'm not your typical Bible professor 80 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,720 S2: because I like to do all the the radio and 81 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,400 S2: podcast things, kind of like, you know, like you guys 82 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,040 S2: are true broadcasters, professional broadcasters. I'm just happy to have 83 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:35,560 S2: a little foot in the door here. 84 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,120 S1: It's a pleasure to meet you. Now, I read on 85 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,479 S1: your website you led a youth group of Vietnamese refugees 86 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,640 S1: in Southern California. You mentored college age students in the 87 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,840 S1: Philippines as a missionary with Converge Worldwide, and you served 88 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,320 S1: as the student ministries pastor for multicultural youth groups and 89 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,950 S1: college students on staff in the Bay Area of California. 90 00:04:55,950 --> 00:04:58,070 S1: So did you grow up in California? 91 00:04:58,470 --> 00:05:00,750 S2: I actually grew up in the Philippines, so I was 92 00:05:00,750 --> 00:05:03,350 S2: born in Evanston, so not too far away from the 93 00:05:03,350 --> 00:05:06,630 S2: Moody Bible Institute here. But my parents were there only 94 00:05:06,630 --> 00:05:09,589 S2: because my mom was a Fulbright scholar from the Philippines 95 00:05:09,589 --> 00:05:13,910 S2: to Northwestern. They got saved there through Cru, and when 96 00:05:13,910 --> 00:05:16,150 S2: they went back to the Philippines, they took me there 97 00:05:16,150 --> 00:05:18,230 S2: when I was three years old. So my first time 98 00:05:18,230 --> 00:05:20,830 S2: in the Philippines, I was three. They went back to 99 00:05:20,870 --> 00:05:24,070 S2: the Philippines to work with Cru and spent most of 100 00:05:24,070 --> 00:05:26,270 S2: my growing up years there, except for a couple of years. 101 00:05:26,270 --> 00:05:28,270 S2: I was in Maryland when I was in third and 102 00:05:28,270 --> 00:05:30,909 S2: fourth grade, but otherwise grew up in the Philippines and 103 00:05:30,910 --> 00:05:34,510 S2: then came to America, quote unquote, came to America the 104 00:05:34,510 --> 00:05:36,630 S2: first time as an adult to go to college in 105 00:05:36,630 --> 00:05:38,669 S2: Southern California. So I'd like to say I have a 106 00:05:38,670 --> 00:05:41,989 S2: very atypical Asian American story where I got the full 107 00:05:41,990 --> 00:05:44,110 S2: immigrant experience with a blue passport. 108 00:05:45,070 --> 00:05:47,910 S1: So you were a missionary at three years old, right? 109 00:05:47,950 --> 00:05:51,190 S2: Yeah, I was a kid. That was a crew kid. 110 00:05:51,470 --> 00:05:54,660 S1: Uh, and now you're. You say that your mom was 111 00:05:54,660 --> 00:05:56,900 S1: the first PhD you ever knew. 112 00:05:57,300 --> 00:05:59,500 S2: Yeah. That's right. Well, she was the first PhD I 113 00:05:59,500 --> 00:06:01,780 S2: ever knew, and I know what that was, but, uh, yeah, 114 00:06:01,820 --> 00:06:04,380 S2: she kind of sparked my interest in. What is that? 115 00:06:04,380 --> 00:06:06,540 S2: Maybe one day I, too, will get a doctorate, you know, 116 00:06:06,580 --> 00:06:10,140 S2: says little, little Mikhail. But. Yeah. Yeah. 117 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:12,780 S1: Tell me about your dad. Because he was doctor Bob. 118 00:06:13,220 --> 00:06:17,900 S2: So my dad got an honorary doctorate from an organization that, uh, 119 00:06:17,900 --> 00:06:21,380 S2: gave honorary doctorates to people in the Third World who 120 00:06:21,380 --> 00:06:24,300 S2: were doing good Christian leadership work. And he started a 121 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:27,820 S2: college in the Philippines called Messiah College, not affiliated with 122 00:06:28,180 --> 00:06:32,100 S2: Messiah College in America, but, uh, through his work in the, uh, 123 00:06:32,260 --> 00:06:34,539 S2: in the college there. And then also, he's he's done 124 00:06:34,540 --> 00:06:38,700 S2: work in marketplace ministry and with Muslim communities in the Philippines. 125 00:06:39,100 --> 00:06:41,580 S2: He received his honorary doctorate. Yeah. 126 00:06:41,940 --> 00:06:44,100 S1: When did you know you wanted to do what you 127 00:06:44,100 --> 00:06:44,980 S1: do today? 128 00:06:45,220 --> 00:06:50,300 S2: Oh, man. Um, probably in 2010. This is when I 129 00:06:50,339 --> 00:06:54,650 S2: left the Bay area. After doing that youth ministry position 130 00:06:54,650 --> 00:06:57,969 S2: in the Bay area, I was in Sacramento and really 131 00:06:57,970 --> 00:07:00,890 S2: just searching for, uh, where was God leading me? And 132 00:07:00,890 --> 00:07:03,890 S2: what God was doing was opening the doors to adjunct 133 00:07:03,890 --> 00:07:09,250 S2: positions at Jessup University, at Western Seminary, at their extension 134 00:07:09,250 --> 00:07:13,170 S2: campus in Sacramento, and then through speaking and doing apologetics ministry, 135 00:07:13,170 --> 00:07:17,090 S2: getting these opportunities to speak in colleges. I even taught 136 00:07:17,290 --> 00:07:20,370 S2: world religion at University of Phoenix for a while, and 137 00:07:20,370 --> 00:07:22,890 S2: I was like, okay, yeah, actually that was a fun ministry, haha. 138 00:07:22,930 --> 00:07:25,570 S2: Because I got to teach religion at a secular school. Um, 139 00:07:26,130 --> 00:07:28,490 S2: and share the gospel. Uh, you know, a couple of 140 00:07:28,490 --> 00:07:30,930 S2: times in class, as we were comparing, uh, the way 141 00:07:30,930 --> 00:07:35,490 S2: of salvation and Christianity to other religions and, um, I said, 142 00:07:35,530 --> 00:07:36,690 S2: you know, God, if you want me to be a 143 00:07:36,690 --> 00:07:39,090 S2: real professor and a fool because I had an Ma 144 00:07:39,090 --> 00:07:41,810 S2: in Christian apologetics, but I'd kind of hit the limit 145 00:07:41,810 --> 00:07:43,890 S2: of what I could do with that. Uh, then I 146 00:07:43,890 --> 00:07:46,770 S2: need to go to seminary. And so in 2012, I 147 00:07:46,770 --> 00:07:49,920 S2: went to Dallas Theological Seminary. I did the Master of 148 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,280 S2: Theology straight through through the PhD, and that's where I 149 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,880 S2: fell in love with historical Jesus studies through my mentor 150 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,480 S2: Darrell Bock, who wrote the foreword of my book. That's 151 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,480 S2: also how I got into podcasting, because, uh, I started 152 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,640 S2: working on the Dallas Seminary podcast right away, and I 153 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,680 S2: managed that show for ten years, and I was a 154 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,560 S2: host for six years. So that time and I called 155 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,160 S2: that my decade in Dallas was very formative for me. 156 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,160 S1: Yeah, you get an education there, not only in the classroom, 157 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,320 S1: but also with all the professors that would funnel through 158 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,080 S1: there and the guests that you had. Um, and it 159 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,400 S1: sounds to me like what is in your what makes 160 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,760 S1: you come alive then is to is that, uh, what 161 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,520 S1: you just mentioned, the Jesus as a figure in ancient history, 162 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,960 S1: not just talking to people about what you think this 163 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,800 S1: verse means to them, but let it come alive. Let 164 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,640 S1: Jesus come alive as this figure and what others are saying, 165 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,840 S1: and it really is what you've written about in the 166 00:08:47,990 --> 00:08:50,870 S1: new book. Did Jesus really say he was God, right? 167 00:08:50,910 --> 00:08:53,350 S2: Yeah. You know, for many people, they might say, I'm 168 00:08:53,390 --> 00:08:56,150 S2: not religious, but I'm interested in history. Those are the 169 00:08:56,150 --> 00:08:58,910 S2: kind of people that sometimes Christians have a hard time 170 00:08:58,910 --> 00:09:02,230 S2: connecting with, because they've never been taught how to approach. 171 00:09:02,230 --> 00:09:05,110 S2: Somebody who is interested in history is willing to even 172 00:09:05,110 --> 00:09:09,189 S2: look at the Bible as a historical document or just, 173 00:09:09,230 --> 00:09:11,829 S2: you know, an ancient document, whether or not it's even 174 00:09:11,830 --> 00:09:14,350 S2: reliable is the question. Right. But to go there because 175 00:09:14,350 --> 00:09:16,550 S2: some Christians get a little nervous when we play in 176 00:09:16,550 --> 00:09:20,390 S2: this space of historical studies because they feel like, why 177 00:09:20,390 --> 00:09:23,270 S2: should I play this game of this skeptical game of 178 00:09:23,270 --> 00:09:25,430 S2: let's fact check the Bible? Because I believe the Bible 179 00:09:25,470 --> 00:09:27,470 S2: is the Word of God. But for the sake of 180 00:09:27,470 --> 00:09:30,870 S2: finding common ground with somebody else who they have some 181 00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:34,670 S2: kind of an intellectual block there, and the God that 182 00:09:34,670 --> 00:09:38,469 S2: we serve actually acted in history for real. And if 183 00:09:38,470 --> 00:09:40,630 S2: God really acted in history, we should be able to 184 00:09:40,670 --> 00:09:43,750 S2: study Jesus as a figure in ancient history. So it's 185 00:09:43,750 --> 00:09:47,540 S2: not any way denigrating the authority of Scripture to go there. Actually, 186 00:09:47,580 --> 00:09:50,220 S2: it shows us that God really did act in history. 187 00:09:50,220 --> 00:09:54,420 S2: And he, uh, we can look at Scripture and even 188 00:09:54,420 --> 00:09:57,300 S2: Luke does this right, where Luke connects Scripture to, uh, 189 00:09:57,300 --> 00:10:00,060 S2: secular history to show that Jesus really did act in history. 190 00:10:00,500 --> 00:10:03,940 S1: To know not just what you believe, but why you 191 00:10:03,940 --> 00:10:07,580 S1: believe it. And the evidence and the reason I know, uh, 192 00:10:07,580 --> 00:10:10,060 S1: Lee Strobel has blurbed your book, and Lee was with 193 00:10:10,059 --> 00:10:13,780 S1: us last week, and that's huge in his life. And 194 00:10:13,780 --> 00:10:16,900 S1: it makes him come alive as well, because that's, you know, 195 00:10:16,940 --> 00:10:19,179 S1: that's what happened to him. So here's what I'm going 196 00:10:19,179 --> 00:10:21,780 S1: to do. I'll call Time Out and we'll take a break. 197 00:10:21,780 --> 00:10:24,059 S1: And when we come back, you've got to hear about 198 00:10:24,059 --> 00:10:28,140 S1: the woman who came up to Mikhail at after church 199 00:10:28,140 --> 00:10:32,740 S1: and challenged him about what Jesus said about himself, and 200 00:10:32,740 --> 00:10:36,620 S1: that led to Down the road, this book. Did Jesus 201 00:10:36,620 --> 00:10:41,140 S1: really say he was God making sense of his historical claims? 202 00:10:41,140 --> 00:10:45,970 S1: It's our featured resource at Chris Fabriclive. Chris Fabry lives. 203 00:10:46,890 --> 00:11:03,530 S1: Our number is (877) 548-3675. It's happening today at the radio 204 00:11:03,530 --> 00:11:06,730 S1: backyard fence. I have heard so much about doctor del 205 00:11:06,730 --> 00:11:09,610 S1: Rosario and I keep saying, why won't he come on 206 00:11:09,610 --> 00:11:14,050 S1: my program? And today it's happening. Doctor Michael del Rosario 207 00:11:14,290 --> 00:11:16,530 S1: teaches at Moody Bible Institute. You can find out more 208 00:11:16,530 --> 00:11:20,450 S1: about him. He is the apologetics guy and his first 209 00:11:20,450 --> 00:11:24,490 S1: book is Did Jesus Really Say He Was God? It's 210 00:11:24,490 --> 00:11:30,490 S1: our featured resource at Chris. Chris favorite. Okay, so tell 211 00:11:30,490 --> 00:11:33,370 S1: me about this, uh, middle aged woman who came up 212 00:11:33,370 --> 00:11:36,570 S1: to you after church and said, wait a minute. Hang on. 213 00:11:36,570 --> 00:11:39,610 S1: He didn't really say that. Well, what that that really 214 00:11:39,610 --> 00:11:42,290 S1: was kind of the impetus for all of this, isn't it? 215 00:11:42,570 --> 00:11:44,640 S2: Well, yeah, there is a number of people who have 216 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:46,600 S2: approached me with a similar kind of question, but this 217 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,480 S2: lady stands out in my mind because in the middle 218 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,520 S2: of our conversation, she's the only one who grabbed my 219 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,600 S2: Bible and held it up like a visual aid and said, 220 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,800 S2: according to this, Jesus never said he was God. I 221 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,200 S2: was pretty surprised because this lady went to church regularly 222 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:02,880 S2: and she was saying some of the same kinds of 223 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,360 S2: things as our skeptical atheist friends, you know. And so 224 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,640 S2: we began to look at things like in John eight 225 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,520 S2: where Jesus says, Before Abraham was, I am in John ten, 226 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:14,240 S2: where he says, I and the father are one. The 227 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,680 S2: Jews were ready to kill him, because you they said, 228 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,120 S2: a mere man, claimed to be God. But then she 229 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,760 S2: switches from a literary kind of question to a historical question. 230 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:25,679 S2: So it's not just where in the Bible does it 231 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,080 S2: say Jesus is God? Or where does Jesus say He's 232 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,320 S2: God in Scripture? But does Jesus really say he's God? 233 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:32,960 S2: Did he really say that? How do we know the 234 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,080 S2: Bible is giving me real history? Why don't we see 235 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,400 S2: any hint of a divine claim in the earlier Gospels, 236 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,840 S2: especially in Mark, because she was reading these critical scholars 237 00:12:41,990 --> 00:12:44,830 S2: and these critical scholars say that Mark was the very 238 00:12:44,830 --> 00:12:48,030 S2: first gospel that was likely written. And so people have 239 00:12:48,030 --> 00:12:51,990 S2: historical questions about Jesus because they're not so sure if 240 00:12:51,990 --> 00:12:53,910 S2: they can trust what they read in the Bible. So 241 00:12:53,910 --> 00:12:55,949 S2: we need to train people to do to be able 242 00:12:55,950 --> 00:12:59,670 S2: to do both, to show where in Scripture Jesus says 243 00:12:59,670 --> 00:13:02,430 S2: He's God. How that works. And then say, this is 244 00:13:02,429 --> 00:13:06,069 S2: giving us real history and explain how historians can uncover 245 00:13:06,070 --> 00:13:08,310 S2: what happened in the past when it comes to Jesus. 246 00:13:08,309 --> 00:13:11,550 S1: So that's why you focused on Mark then? Because it 247 00:13:11,550 --> 00:13:15,830 S1: is seen to be earlier, believed to be earlier, and 248 00:13:15,830 --> 00:13:20,109 S1: that the other writers, especially Matthew and Luke, borrowed from 249 00:13:20,110 --> 00:13:24,750 S1: it or, uh, reprinted. I'm not using the right word there, 250 00:13:24,750 --> 00:13:25,870 S1: but you know what I'm saying? 251 00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:29,470 S2: Yeah. They were aware, uh, of Mark, and even Luke 252 00:13:29,470 --> 00:13:32,990 S2: says he used other sources. Right. And so, uh, John 253 00:13:32,990 --> 00:13:34,830 S2: says there are so many other things Jesus did that 254 00:13:34,830 --> 00:13:37,510 S2: we didn't write them all down. Right. But the historical 255 00:13:37,510 --> 00:13:40,780 S2: Jesus is the Jesus we can uncover through the tools 256 00:13:40,780 --> 00:13:43,940 S2: of historiography, using the same tools that we could study. 257 00:13:43,980 --> 00:13:47,260 S2: Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great with. And so it 258 00:13:47,260 --> 00:13:50,020 S2: puts Jesus in a. How shall I say, a more 259 00:13:50,020 --> 00:13:52,620 S2: approachable way for those who say they have a hang 260 00:13:52,660 --> 00:13:55,020 S2: up with? I don't know if I can start by 261 00:13:55,020 --> 00:13:57,620 S2: believing the Bible is God's Word, but I'm interested in history, 262 00:13:57,620 --> 00:13:59,900 S2: so I'm open to talk to you about that. And 263 00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:01,980 S2: so that's I find that's a great way in. 264 00:14:02,420 --> 00:14:05,540 S1: That is the knock though. And I'm, I'm hoping that 265 00:14:05,780 --> 00:14:09,180 S1: somebody will, you know, having this be having this conversation 266 00:14:09,179 --> 00:14:12,860 S1: on Thanksgiving or sometime this weekend with somebody, the family 267 00:14:12,860 --> 00:14:15,780 S1: that's in town. Because part of the problem we have 268 00:14:15,820 --> 00:14:17,860 S1: is that a lot of people see the Bible. This 269 00:14:17,860 --> 00:14:22,780 S1: is a religious text. It's not a historical text. It's 270 00:14:22,780 --> 00:14:26,220 S1: not a science book. It's biased. ET cetera, et cetera. 271 00:14:26,620 --> 00:14:30,300 S1: And you're saying that we can look at not only 272 00:14:30,660 --> 00:14:35,460 S1: the the historical record that we have in the New Testament, 273 00:14:35,460 --> 00:14:39,140 S1: but also those who are outside of it who are saying, no, 274 00:14:39,290 --> 00:14:40,890 S1: this is what happened, right? 275 00:14:41,210 --> 00:14:44,970 S2: Yeah. So we can corroborate. So corroboration is the name 276 00:14:44,970 --> 00:14:47,490 S2: of the game when it comes to historical research. How 277 00:14:47,490 --> 00:14:49,570 S2: do we know somebody did something in the past? It's 278 00:14:49,570 --> 00:14:51,610 S2: better if we don't just have one source, if we 279 00:14:51,610 --> 00:14:54,570 S2: have more than one source. And so historians will take 280 00:14:54,570 --> 00:14:57,850 S2: a look at, let's just say, the mere existence of Jesus. 281 00:14:57,850 --> 00:15:01,210 S2: Some people aren't comfortable starting with the Bible. And even 282 00:15:01,210 --> 00:15:03,810 S2: though the Bible really is the best documentary evidence for 283 00:15:03,810 --> 00:15:06,170 S2: the life of Jesus, people get interested when you start 284 00:15:06,170 --> 00:15:09,130 S2: talking about texts outside the Bible, like the the Jewish 285 00:15:09,130 --> 00:15:12,810 S2: historian Josephus, who mentions Jesus as a real person who 286 00:15:12,810 --> 00:15:15,770 S2: is known as a miracle worker who was crucified under 287 00:15:15,770 --> 00:15:19,730 S2: Pontius Pilate and who was believed to be the Messiah. 288 00:15:19,770 --> 00:15:22,690 S2: All these things are also outside the Bible. And so 289 00:15:22,690 --> 00:15:27,170 S2: we have a non-Christian first century Jewish source talking about 290 00:15:27,170 --> 00:15:30,210 S2: the Jewish role in Jesus death even says some of 291 00:15:30,210 --> 00:15:32,730 S2: our own leaders, Josephus says, put Pilate up to this. 292 00:15:33,050 --> 00:15:36,490 S2: Tacitus is another one. He's a Roman senator who's writing 293 00:15:36,490 --> 00:15:39,520 S2: about the Roman role in Jesus death, also putting it 294 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,040 S2: under the time of Tiberius, when Pontius Pilate was governor 295 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,360 S2: of Judea. And so just where Luke puts it, during 296 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,000 S2: the reign of Tiberius, when Pontius Pilate was ruling. So 297 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,640 S2: I love how Luke does that connects those things for us. 298 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,920 S2: And people go, okay, maybe there's something to this now I'm, 299 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,320 S2: I'm more comfortable in let's talk about the Bible. 300 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:04,080 S1: Yes. So in in Mark though in what you especially 301 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,560 S1: the two passages you go to, you are interested in 302 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:12,040 S1: what the enemies of Jesus say about him or ask 303 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:16,520 S1: of him than. Than the disciples or the people who are, 304 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,840 S1: who kind of, uh, agree with him or want to 305 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,320 S1: believe that he's not just a human, right? 306 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,760 S2: Yeah. There's an interesting, uh, thing that historians look at 307 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,880 S2: when we try to find information that, uh, really grabs 308 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,760 S2: the attention of historians. So, for example, if you have 309 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,470 S2: an enemy saying something positive about someone they don't even like. 310 00:16:37,950 --> 00:16:40,750 S2: Historians are going to pay careful attention to that, and 311 00:16:40,750 --> 00:16:44,550 S2: many studies about Jesus will look at what Jesus disciples 312 00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:47,750 S2: believed about him, what the disciples wrote about him, what 313 00:16:47,750 --> 00:16:50,710 S2: the Bible teaches about him. But a few studies look 314 00:16:50,750 --> 00:16:52,670 S2: at what Jesus enemies thought. And what I'm trying to 315 00:16:52,670 --> 00:16:55,190 S2: show here is that Jesus enemies were not vague about this. 316 00:16:55,190 --> 00:16:57,430 S2: They weren't like, I'm not entirely sure what Jesus is 317 00:16:57,430 --> 00:17:01,310 S2: saying here. No, they believed he was blaspheming. And in fact, 318 00:17:01,310 --> 00:17:03,910 S2: they would be correct that he would be a blasphemer 319 00:17:03,910 --> 00:17:06,429 S2: if he wasn't actually God as he claimed to be. 320 00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:11,950 S1: Okay, so let's let's go to Mark chapter two. Can 321 00:17:11,950 --> 00:17:17,910 S1: I read this portion at the beginning? Okay. Um, Mark two, 322 00:17:17,950 --> 00:17:21,830 S1: verse one, when he entered Capernaum again, after some days, 323 00:17:21,830 --> 00:17:25,150 S1: it was reported that he was at home. So many 324 00:17:25,150 --> 00:17:28,869 S1: people gathered together that there was no more room, not 325 00:17:28,869 --> 00:17:31,149 S1: even in the doorway. And he was speaking the word 326 00:17:31,150 --> 00:17:35,180 S1: to them. They came to him, bringing a paralytic carried 327 00:17:35,180 --> 00:17:38,060 S1: by four of them. Since they were not able to 328 00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:40,660 S1: bring him to Jesus because of the crowd, they removed 329 00:17:40,660 --> 00:17:43,900 S1: the roof above him, and after digging through it, they 330 00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:47,780 S1: lowered the mat on which the paralytic was lying. Seeing 331 00:17:47,780 --> 00:17:53,619 S1: their faith, Jesus always gets me. Seeing their faith, Jesus 332 00:17:53,619 --> 00:17:59,180 S1: told the paralytic, son, your sins are forgiven. But some 333 00:17:59,180 --> 00:18:02,660 S1: of the scribes were sitting there questioning in their hearts, 334 00:18:02,700 --> 00:18:06,220 S1: why does he speak like this? He's blaspheming. Who can 335 00:18:06,220 --> 00:18:11,060 S1: forgive sins but God alone? Right away, Jesus perceived in 336 00:18:11,060 --> 00:18:14,140 S1: his spirit that they were thinking like this within themselves 337 00:18:14,140 --> 00:18:17,260 S1: and said to them, why are you thinking these things 338 00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:21,260 S1: in your hearts? Which is easier to say to the paralytic, 339 00:18:21,540 --> 00:18:25,380 S1: your sins are forgiven, or to say, get up, take 340 00:18:25,380 --> 00:18:28,540 S1: your mat and walk. But so that you may know 341 00:18:28,540 --> 00:18:31,060 S1: that the Son of Man has authority on earth to 342 00:18:31,100 --> 00:18:36,050 S1: forgive sins. He told the paralytic, I tell you, get up, 343 00:18:36,090 --> 00:18:39,970 S1: take your mat and go home. Immediately he got up, 344 00:18:39,970 --> 00:18:42,730 S1: took the mat and went out in front of everyone. 345 00:18:43,010 --> 00:18:45,690 S1: As a result, they were all astounded and gave glory 346 00:18:45,690 --> 00:18:49,170 S1: to God, saying, we have never seen anything like this. 347 00:18:49,810 --> 00:18:53,369 S1: So the woman who took your Bible and said, Jesus 348 00:18:53,369 --> 00:18:56,690 S1: said he was never said he was God. Why did 349 00:18:56,690 --> 00:18:58,090 S1: you point to this passage? 350 00:18:58,490 --> 00:19:00,369 S2: Yeah, we were talking about the Gospel of John, and 351 00:19:00,369 --> 00:19:02,810 S2: she says, how come you don't see anything like that? 352 00:19:02,810 --> 00:19:05,649 S2: No hint of a divine claim in the earlier Gospels. 353 00:19:05,850 --> 00:19:08,930 S2: And here we have Jesus claiming to do something that 354 00:19:08,930 --> 00:19:11,530 S2: only God can do. In the minds of the scribes, 355 00:19:11,530 --> 00:19:15,650 S2: only God can forgive sins. And so they were thinking, 356 00:19:15,650 --> 00:19:18,410 S2: he's a blasphemer. Why is he talking like that? And 357 00:19:18,410 --> 00:19:21,169 S2: so this is something that historically, again, it lets us 358 00:19:21,170 --> 00:19:23,330 S2: have common ground with people who don't see the Bible 359 00:19:23,330 --> 00:19:26,770 S2: as an authority to think about Scripture. Um, as a historian. 360 00:19:26,770 --> 00:19:28,770 S2: So it's very different than the way we think about 361 00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:31,330 S2: it in church. And that's one of the reasons that 362 00:19:31,330 --> 00:19:33,200 S2: this really stood out to me because as women went 363 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,520 S2: to church regularly, but she was approaching the gospel like 364 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,360 S2: a skeptic. So multiple attestation of theme is one of these, 365 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,440 S2: what we call rules of evidence, or the criteria of 366 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,720 S2: authenticity that help historians figure out what happened in the past. 367 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,639 S2: And I like to start with this as a bedrock thing. 368 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:54,200 S2: Jesus was certainly a real human person, certainly a miracle worker. 369 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,440 S2: Or he was known as a miracle worker. At least 370 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,800 S2: even those who don't believe miracles are even possible will 371 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,040 S2: say that Jesus was known as a miracle worker is 372 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,720 S2: a fact of history. So here we have also a 373 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,159 S2: tradition of Jesus healing the lame, not only in this story, 374 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,640 S2: but in Matthew 11 when John's disciples came to Jesus, 375 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,800 S2: Jesus said, go tell John what you've heard and seen. 376 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,040 S2: One of the things he said is the lame walk. 377 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,119 S2: So there's a tradition of Jesus being a miracle worker, 378 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,960 S2: healing the lame, even forgiving sins. This theme runs through 379 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,000 S2: his ministry, not just here, but even in Luke chapter seven, 380 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,000 S2: where the woman who anointed his feet with the alabaster jar. 381 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,830 S2: That lady, he said to her, your sins are forgiven. 382 00:20:32,270 --> 00:20:34,750 S2: So historians will say, okay, there's something to this. Let's 383 00:20:34,750 --> 00:20:37,709 S2: investigate this particular story. Even for those who don't see 384 00:20:37,910 --> 00:20:39,990 S2: the Bible as the Word of God. This is actually 385 00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:43,350 S2: something Jesus claimed to do. He claimed to forgive sins 386 00:20:43,550 --> 00:20:47,030 S2: and only God can forgive sins. And so he was 387 00:20:47,030 --> 00:20:50,070 S2: giving them something that they can see by healing the man, 388 00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:51,629 S2: so that they could believe in him for something that 389 00:20:51,630 --> 00:20:54,270 S2: they couldn't see, that he really does have authority to 390 00:20:54,310 --> 00:20:56,950 S2: forgive sins. So I say, whatever your theory of Jesus, 391 00:20:56,990 --> 00:20:58,590 S2: you have to be able to make sense of this 392 00:20:58,590 --> 00:21:01,590 S2: divine claim here where he claimed to forgive sins. That's 393 00:21:01,590 --> 00:21:03,750 S2: not just a human claim, that's a divine claim. 394 00:21:04,150 --> 00:21:07,950 S1: Now, the the detractors of that, though, and among them 395 00:21:07,950 --> 00:21:12,190 S1: are Bart Ehrman and others would would get around that 396 00:21:12,190 --> 00:21:15,350 S1: somehow would say, well, nah, he's not really making himself 397 00:21:15,350 --> 00:21:18,830 S1: equal with God or saying that he was God. What 398 00:21:18,830 --> 00:21:21,470 S1: are they saying? What are they? How do they interpret that? 399 00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:25,030 S2: Yeah. Some people. Uh, Ehrman wrote about this in How 400 00:21:25,630 --> 00:21:28,750 S2: Jesus Became God. Uh, who wrote about this idea that 401 00:21:28,859 --> 00:21:32,060 S2: Jesus was claiming to have a priestly kind of authority, 402 00:21:32,060 --> 00:21:36,820 S2: so a merely human priestly authority. And so, first of all, 403 00:21:36,820 --> 00:21:40,180 S2: this misses the fact that Jesus is healing and forgiving, 404 00:21:40,220 --> 00:21:44,500 S2: actually forgiving. First, he's prioritizing the man's spiritual state. He 405 00:21:44,540 --> 00:21:48,500 S2: heals first, then he forgives. Okay. And Psalm 103 says, 406 00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:52,060 S2: God is the one who forgives and heals. Psalm 103 says, 407 00:21:52,060 --> 00:21:55,060 S2: praise the Lord who forgives all your sins and heals. 408 00:21:55,260 --> 00:21:57,740 S2: Here Jesus is doing both in the same scene and 409 00:21:57,740 --> 00:22:00,780 S2: he's making a divine claim. But this is basically unheard of. 410 00:22:00,780 --> 00:22:03,899 S2: Forgiveness of sins was reserved for God alone. So in 411 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:06,980 S2: terms of priestly authority, think about priests could be involved 412 00:22:06,980 --> 00:22:09,500 S2: in the atonement rituals in the temple, but there is 413 00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:12,980 S2: no record of any priest anywhere saying, son, your sins 414 00:22:12,980 --> 00:22:15,500 S2: are forgiven. They are not in the temple. They are 415 00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:18,940 S2: in this house in Capernaum with a partially dismantled roof, 416 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:22,020 S2: and there is no sacrifice. This is not the Day 417 00:22:22,020 --> 00:22:25,020 S2: of Atonement, and this is not at all the way 418 00:22:25,020 --> 00:22:27,580 S2: that human beings are believed to be able to participate 419 00:22:27,690 --> 00:22:31,930 S2: in this whole forgiveness of sins thing. And so prophets 420 00:22:31,970 --> 00:22:36,130 S2: even could pray for you. But, uh, prophets wouldn't say 421 00:22:36,130 --> 00:22:38,730 S2: your sins are forgiven. There's no record of that either. 422 00:22:39,010 --> 00:22:41,570 S2: And so, again, this is there's no parallel in ancient 423 00:22:41,570 --> 00:22:44,210 S2: sources of a human figure claiming to forgive sins in 424 00:22:44,210 --> 00:22:47,410 S2: general like this. Not just like you and me forgiving 425 00:22:47,410 --> 00:22:49,409 S2: each other sins. If I did something to offend you, 426 00:22:49,410 --> 00:22:51,330 S2: I could ask you to forgive me, and vice versa. 427 00:22:51,609 --> 00:22:53,410 S2: But I can't ask you to forgive me for something 428 00:22:53,410 --> 00:22:56,090 S2: I did to my son. Uh, there's no third party 429 00:22:56,130 --> 00:22:59,889 S2: forgiveness in the Jewish tradition or in the Greco-Roman world, either. 430 00:23:00,130 --> 00:23:02,370 S2: And so this is not just a human claim, it's 431 00:23:02,369 --> 00:23:03,210 S2: a divine claim. 432 00:23:03,650 --> 00:23:06,969 S1: It also seems, as I was reading that through, I 433 00:23:07,010 --> 00:23:09,810 S1: kind of chuckled there because it it comes out of 434 00:23:09,810 --> 00:23:14,770 S1: left field. It's almost like somebody who's, you know, crawling 435 00:23:14,770 --> 00:23:17,450 S1: through a desert has not had a drink of water 436 00:23:17,450 --> 00:23:20,530 S1: for two weeks. And you, you find them in the 437 00:23:20,570 --> 00:23:22,850 S1: sand and you walk up to them and and you 438 00:23:22,850 --> 00:23:25,369 S1: know what, what it is that they need and they want. 439 00:23:25,609 --> 00:23:27,840 S1: They want a to drink of water, right? And you 440 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,800 S1: say to them, your sins are forgiven. It's like, no, no, 441 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:33,800 S1: I don't need my sins forgiven. I need to be 442 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,320 S1: healed here. But Jesus goes to the sin thing, right? 443 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,480 S2: Yeah. He's prioritizing the man's spiritual state because he knows 444 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,520 S2: that's the more important thing. And the healing is actually 445 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,600 S2: evidence that the forgiveness worked, that Jesus does have authority 446 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,879 S2: on earth to forgive sins. That's really important, that Jesus, 447 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,000 S2: as the Son of Man, has authority on earth to 448 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,200 S2: forgive sins. And he's not correcting the scribes. It is 449 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,760 S2: true that only God can forgive sins, so he's making 450 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,680 S2: them put this two these two things together, uh, even 451 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,560 S2: asking them, what's easier to say your sins are forgiven 452 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,080 S2: or get up and walk because that's a riddle. It depends. Right? 453 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,680 S2: Because you could say, well, uh, it's on the one hand, 454 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,520 S2: it's kind of harder to say, get up and walk, 455 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,640 S2: because if the guy doesn't get up and walk, everybody 456 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,760 S2: knows you're a total sham. You're not a miracle worker 457 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,520 S2: at all. But if you think about it, it's actually 458 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,119 S2: harder to say your sins are forgiven because only God 459 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,760 S2: can forgive sins for real. Jewish people knew forgiveness ultimately 460 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:31,880 S2: came from God alone, and that's why no prophet or 461 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,360 S2: priest or Greco-Roman miracle worker even ever said, son, your 462 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:36,200 S2: sins are forgiven. 463 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,600 S1: See, I always thought of it that it was so 464 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,560 S1: obvious that which is easier to say. Your sins are forgiven. 465 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,160 S1: You could say your sins are forgiven and and never 466 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,560 S1: really know, you know. That's easy to say. 467 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:50,640 S2: You can't see it happening. 468 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,440 S1: You can't see it happening. But you can see him 469 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,960 S1: standing up and walking and picking up his mat and 470 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,640 S1: going and walking home walking. Can you imagine him walking through, 471 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,919 S1: all pushing his way, all the way through all those 472 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,800 S1: different people? But you just bring that up. It's like you, 473 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,760 S1: you can't say that. If you do say that, then 474 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,080 S1: you are blaspheming unless you're God. 475 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,879 S2: Mhm. Yeah. In fact they are the theologians in the audience. 476 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,960 S2: The scribes were. So they understood what Jesus was doing here. 477 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,400 S2: He's speaking like God does and he's acting like God does. 478 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,870 S2: Now some people say, well, how come he didn't just 479 00:25:24,910 --> 00:25:28,110 S2: outright say, I am God here? Yes, we can think 480 00:25:28,109 --> 00:25:29,510 S2: about that later on. 481 00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:31,910 S1: We are. We're going to talk about that. Why? Because 482 00:25:31,910 --> 00:25:37,230 S1: it's true. Jesus never said those specific words I am God, 483 00:25:37,710 --> 00:25:40,310 S1: but there. Well, we're going to keep talking about it. 484 00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:43,830 S1: Did Jesus really say he was God? My doctor, Mikel 485 00:25:43,869 --> 00:25:46,629 S1: del Rosario, it's our featured resource. Just go to Chris 486 00:25:46,670 --> 00:26:04,190 S1: favorite more straight ahead. This is Chris Fabry live. We're 487 00:26:04,190 --> 00:26:07,950 S1: talking with the apologetics guide today, Doctor Mikel del Rosario 488 00:26:08,190 --> 00:26:10,430 S1: tomorrow the two Michaels. Oh I got to get these 489 00:26:10,430 --> 00:26:13,750 S1: three guys together. Two Michaels and a Mikel. Uh, the 490 00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:17,030 S1: people at Carenet know the importance of the person of Jesus, 491 00:26:17,030 --> 00:26:20,190 S1: as we're talking about that and the truth of the incarnation. 492 00:26:20,190 --> 00:26:24,380 S1: God with us For 50 years they have walked beside 493 00:26:24,380 --> 00:26:27,740 S1: women and men who have an unexpected pregnancy and are 494 00:26:27,740 --> 00:26:30,460 S1: struggling with making that choice. If you go to Chris 495 00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:35,020 S1: and click the Green Connect link, you can receive their 496 00:26:35,020 --> 00:26:39,820 S1: free devotional praying through advent. It'll remind you that God 497 00:26:39,820 --> 00:26:43,420 S1: meets us in our uncertainty, in our doubt, in our 498 00:26:43,420 --> 00:26:48,580 S1: anxious moments, and he wants to write redemption into your story. 499 00:26:48,700 --> 00:26:52,900 S1: Experience the wonder of God's greatest story, the miracle birth 500 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:56,220 S1: of the Savior, and you will join in praying for 501 00:26:56,220 --> 00:26:59,580 S1: life and hope through him. Click the Green connect link 502 00:26:59,580 --> 00:27:05,300 S1: right there, Chris. And you can download praying through advent. 503 00:27:05,420 --> 00:27:11,860 S1: Chris Fabry. The new book by doctor del Rosario is 504 00:27:11,859 --> 00:27:14,260 S1: Did Jesus really say he was God? Have you ever 505 00:27:14,260 --> 00:27:17,139 S1: had anybody ask you that or say that to you? 506 00:27:17,180 --> 00:27:19,340 S1: Jesus never said he was God. This was this is 507 00:27:19,340 --> 00:27:21,210 S1: a fair deal. This is the stuff that people made 508 00:27:21,210 --> 00:27:24,130 S1: up back then. Well, he has written this scholarly look 509 00:27:24,170 --> 00:27:27,330 S1: and debunking a lot of what is in the in 510 00:27:27,369 --> 00:27:30,890 S1: the current culture. The subtitle is Making Sense of his 511 00:27:30,890 --> 00:27:38,410 S1: historical claims. It's a featured resource at Chris Cornell. Some 512 00:27:38,410 --> 00:27:41,650 S1: people will say to you, but didn't the disciples also 513 00:27:41,650 --> 00:27:44,970 S1: claim to forgive sins? What do you say to that? 514 00:27:45,369 --> 00:27:49,250 S2: Yeah, I hear they're talking about the disciples being authorized 515 00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:52,810 S2: to forgive sins in John 20, where Jesus says, if 516 00:27:52,850 --> 00:27:56,170 S2: you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. Right. 517 00:27:56,210 --> 00:27:58,210 S2: But if you withhold forgiveness, they aren't. Well, first of all, 518 00:27:58,210 --> 00:28:00,650 S2: it's important to note that we actually don't have stories 519 00:28:00,650 --> 00:28:03,010 S2: about the disciples forgiving sins, so we don't know how 520 00:28:03,410 --> 00:28:05,530 S2: that would have looked, but I can guess how that 521 00:28:05,530 --> 00:28:08,330 S2: might have looked, because we have stories about the disciples, 522 00:28:08,330 --> 00:28:11,370 S2: healing people and healing a lame person. Kind of like 523 00:28:11,369 --> 00:28:14,010 S2: carrying on the tradition of Jesus. And they did it 524 00:28:14,050 --> 00:28:18,770 S2: in Jesus name. In acts chapter three, when Peter and 525 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,600 S2: John went to pray and they found this man with 526 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,480 S2: a lame man, they healed him. And they said, in 527 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,159 S2: Jesus name. And in Luke 24, Jesus says that forgiveness 528 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,520 S2: of sins should be proclaimed in his name. And then 529 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,280 S2: the same thing happens in acts chapter ten, Peter meets Cornelius. 530 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,320 S2: He says, everyone who believes in Jesus receives forgiveness of 531 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,120 S2: sins through his name. And so it's in his name. 532 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,680 S2: That's the key to understanding the difference between Jesus authority 533 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,840 S2: and the disciples authority. Jesus didn't pray or mention God 534 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,120 S2: when he healed the paralytic. He just did it. He 535 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,160 S2: just said, get up and walk. Take your mat. Go home. 536 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,640 S2: This is kind of like the illustration I give is 537 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,120 S2: kind of like a bailiff who is given authority from 538 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,120 S2: a judge. He's appointed by the judge. He serves at 539 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,440 S2: the will of the judge. He can even exercise the 540 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,360 S2: judge's authority in a limited capacity in his name. Okay, 541 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,320 S2: but in a limited way, because the bailiff's authority is 542 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,040 S2: entirely dependent on the judge's authority. In fact, there have 543 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,320 S2: been court cases where the case had to be thrown 544 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,600 S2: out because the bailiff said something he wasn't supposed to say. 545 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,709 S2: So that's what it is with Jesus disciples. Their authority 546 00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:26,070 S2: is derivative from Jesus. When Jesus healed the paralytic, he 547 00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:28,150 S2: didn't even pray or mention God. He just did it 548 00:29:28,150 --> 00:29:30,590 S2: out of his own authority. That's because he's speaking like 549 00:29:30,590 --> 00:29:32,670 S2: God does and acting like God does. 550 00:29:32,990 --> 00:29:37,510 S1: Which is why they their, um, response to that. They 551 00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:40,590 S1: were all astounded and gave glory to God, saying, we've 552 00:29:40,590 --> 00:29:44,310 S1: never seen anything like this. And that to me, that's 553 00:29:44,350 --> 00:29:48,350 S1: that's the crowd that's there. It's not necessarily the scribes. 554 00:29:48,710 --> 00:29:51,790 S1: They're looking at that. Uh, well, I don't know how 555 00:29:51,790 --> 00:29:54,590 S1: they're looking at that. Maybe they did believe maybe some 556 00:29:54,590 --> 00:29:57,910 S1: of them did believe. But my guess is, as happens 557 00:29:57,910 --> 00:30:00,750 S1: in the rest of the Gospels, they're looking for a 558 00:30:00,750 --> 00:30:03,470 S1: way to to catch him, to trap him because he's 559 00:30:03,510 --> 00:30:04,870 S1: a threat to them. Right? 560 00:30:05,470 --> 00:30:07,670 S2: Yeah. So when we have in Mark chapter two, this 561 00:30:07,670 --> 00:30:11,110 S2: clash between Jesus and the scribes, that's actually something that 562 00:30:11,150 --> 00:30:15,270 S2: historians say that really helps us see the truth behind this, 563 00:30:15,590 --> 00:30:18,340 S2: you know, coupled with the other points of corroboration, because 564 00:30:18,340 --> 00:30:21,820 S2: there is a criteria called rejection and execution. And that 565 00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:24,540 S2: is if we can find out how it is Jesus 566 00:30:24,540 --> 00:30:26,860 S2: ended up on the cross. There has to be a 567 00:30:26,860 --> 00:30:29,140 S2: story that helps us understand how did he end up 568 00:30:29,140 --> 00:30:31,860 S2: crucified under Rome? He had to have had a clash 569 00:30:31,860 --> 00:30:34,260 S2: with the Jewish leadership, ended up in front of the 570 00:30:34,260 --> 00:30:37,340 S2: Jewish leadership in some meeting for him to be handed 571 00:30:37,340 --> 00:30:39,780 S2: over to Pilate. And so this is one way historians 572 00:30:40,020 --> 00:30:42,340 S2: get to these scenes is to say, let's take a 573 00:30:42,340 --> 00:30:44,660 S2: look at the scenes where Jesus is having a clash 574 00:30:44,820 --> 00:30:47,580 S2: with the Jewish leaders. What's the point of this? It's 575 00:30:47,580 --> 00:30:50,740 S2: his authority. He's claiming to have divine authority, not just 576 00:30:50,740 --> 00:30:54,500 S2: human authority. His authority is the issue in these these confrontations. 577 00:30:54,740 --> 00:30:59,620 S1: Which also points to the historicity of the writing for me. 578 00:31:00,140 --> 00:31:02,580 S1: Because if you're making this up, you're going to say, 579 00:31:02,620 --> 00:31:06,180 S1: and the scribes immediately believed and they all followed Jesus 580 00:31:06,180 --> 00:31:08,260 S1: from there on. You're going to make this a great story. 581 00:31:08,260 --> 00:31:12,140 S1: But no, there's conflict here. It's like, no, they there 582 00:31:12,180 --> 00:31:14,729 S1: are so many different places where they try to trap 583 00:31:14,730 --> 00:31:17,370 S1: him and then even kill him. And then somebody who 584 00:31:17,370 --> 00:31:20,050 S1: rises from the dead. They're trying to kill Lazarus, too, 585 00:31:20,090 --> 00:31:21,570 S1: to get rid of the evidence. 586 00:31:21,610 --> 00:31:25,210 S2: Mhm mhm mhm. Yeah. Jesus acting like God does and 587 00:31:25,210 --> 00:31:27,370 S2: speaking like God does. That's how he claims to be 588 00:31:27,370 --> 00:31:31,010 S2: divine through a combination of his words and his deeds. Yes. 589 00:31:31,050 --> 00:31:33,810 S2: It's not just some people will say well that's not 590 00:31:33,810 --> 00:31:35,450 S2: how I would claim to be God. I would just 591 00:31:35,450 --> 00:31:37,650 S2: say I'm God. Well, maybe that's how you might do it. 592 00:31:37,650 --> 00:31:40,930 S2: But Jesus was a different culture, a different place. And 593 00:31:40,930 --> 00:31:43,610 S2: that's why I focus on his enemies. Because his enemies 594 00:31:43,610 --> 00:31:46,570 S2: were not vague about this. They understood exactly what he 595 00:31:46,570 --> 00:31:49,290 S2: was saying. And so Jesus is not claiming to be 596 00:31:49,290 --> 00:31:52,130 S2: a rival deity to God the Father. He's not saying 597 00:31:52,130 --> 00:31:54,570 S2: he's the same person as God the Father. And the 598 00:31:54,570 --> 00:31:57,250 S2: scriptures make this clear through the writings of Peter and Paul, 599 00:31:57,970 --> 00:32:01,210 S2: and Jesus is showing a unity and a distinction between 600 00:32:01,210 --> 00:32:04,650 S2: Himself and God the Father. You see this in Jesus baptism, 601 00:32:04,650 --> 00:32:07,250 S2: for example. There's a voice from heaven. This is my son. 602 00:32:07,410 --> 00:32:12,370 S2: Jesus is being baptized. But people confuse sometimes the existence 603 00:32:12,370 --> 00:32:15,720 S2: of a claim with the directness of a claim. That is, 604 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,959 S2: just because Jesus isn't being direct about it doesn't mean 605 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,320 S2: there's no claim there, like you mentioned. I've been married 606 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,320 S2: 26 years. I could tell you, Chris, it was our 607 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,920 S2: 26th wedding anniversary. That's an implicit claim to be married 608 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,720 S2: because I'm speaking like a married person. I could just 609 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,560 S2: wear a wedding ring and not say any words. And 610 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,080 S2: I'm acting like a married person. That's what married people do. 611 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,400 S2: And so Jesus is also making these implicit claims, and 612 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,320 S2: we need to understand and appreciate how these implicit claims 613 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,440 S2: are working in the Gospels. So we could see how 614 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,800 S2: Jesus claimed to be God through a combination of his 615 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,320 S2: words and his deeds. 616 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,640 S1: So you agree that in the Gospels we don't have 617 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,080 S1: Jesus saying those three words, I am God. 618 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:52,880 S2: That's right. 619 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,640 S1: But but implicit in what he said in other places, 620 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,080 S1: he's showing his divinity. Uh, to those around him. 621 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,360 S2: Yeah, words are potentially cheap here. And so Jesus says, 622 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,360 S2: I'm not just going to say something I'm going to 623 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,870 S2: show and do, because for Jewish people. There is no 624 00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:15,350 S2: difference between oh, this will be a little technical, but 625 00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:19,989 S2: some people say functional deity versus ontological deity. It's like, 626 00:33:19,990 --> 00:33:22,990 S2: are you really God or are you just acting like God? Yes. No. 627 00:33:23,470 --> 00:33:26,150 S2: The one who is acting like God is God. Because 628 00:33:26,150 --> 00:33:28,870 S2: how could how could a human being say, claim to 629 00:33:28,910 --> 00:33:32,110 S2: bind Satan himself? For example, how could a mere human 630 00:33:32,110 --> 00:33:35,550 S2: being say Talitha koum, get up? And without even praying, 631 00:33:35,590 --> 00:33:38,310 S2: the little girl is raised from the dead without even 632 00:33:38,310 --> 00:33:41,870 S2: mentioning God. Jesus is showing how he has authority on 633 00:33:41,870 --> 00:33:45,150 S2: earth to forgive sins and actually authority over all of reality. 634 00:33:45,150 --> 00:33:46,950 S2: And when we hit Mark 14, we're going to see 635 00:33:46,950 --> 00:33:47,870 S2: a lot more about that. 636 00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:52,070 S1: The other place that always captures me is the woman 637 00:33:52,070 --> 00:33:55,310 S1: at the well, and she brings, you know, he brings 638 00:33:55,310 --> 00:33:58,990 S1: up all these things, and then she brings up, well, 639 00:33:59,190 --> 00:34:04,310 S1: you know, the Messiah. And Jesus says to her, I 640 00:34:04,350 --> 00:34:07,590 S1: who am speaking, speaking to you, am he. Now there 641 00:34:07,590 --> 00:34:11,300 S1: he's not saying I am God, but he's very clearly. 642 00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:14,740 S1: If you'd say Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. No. 643 00:34:14,739 --> 00:34:16,980 S1: In that conversation he did. Right. 644 00:34:17,020 --> 00:34:21,379 S2: Mhm. Yeah. This sometimes when we get objections from our 645 00:34:21,380 --> 00:34:24,900 S2: Muslim friends about where does Jesus say I am God? 646 00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:27,100 S2: That's a literary kind of question. Not so much a 647 00:34:27,140 --> 00:34:29,620 S2: historical one because there is some respect for the scripture 648 00:34:29,620 --> 00:34:33,700 S2: there on some level. But Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah. 649 00:34:33,700 --> 00:34:36,180 S2: But you don't have a quotation where Jesus says, I 650 00:34:36,219 --> 00:34:39,540 S2: am the Messiah in the Quran. Uh, but it's one 651 00:34:39,540 --> 00:34:41,780 S2: way to build a bridge is to start with the 652 00:34:41,820 --> 00:34:45,460 S2: respect for Jesus that Muslims have, or that other people 653 00:34:45,580 --> 00:34:48,299 S2: might have, and agree that Jesus is the Messiah, that 654 00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:51,540 S2: he healed people miraculously. You know, what can we affirm first? 655 00:34:51,540 --> 00:34:54,340 S2: And then what does the Bible challenge about their view 656 00:34:54,820 --> 00:34:58,700 S2: of Jesus? Um, one thing I like to say to Muslim, uh, 657 00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:00,259 S2: people who talk to me about this is, have you 658 00:35:00,260 --> 00:35:02,739 S2: ever read the stories about how Jesus did miracles? Because 659 00:35:02,739 --> 00:35:05,980 S2: the Quran says he is a miracle worker, but there's 660 00:35:05,980 --> 00:35:09,730 S2: no narratives of his earthly ministry where he was healing people. 661 00:35:09,730 --> 00:35:11,969 S2: But the compassion of Jesus is beautiful. I want to 662 00:35:11,969 --> 00:35:14,930 S2: talk about the beauty, the compassion of Jesus, and the 663 00:35:14,930 --> 00:35:17,489 S2: beauty of these stories and then say, well, here's a 664 00:35:17,489 --> 00:35:19,569 S2: bridge now for us to let's take a look at 665 00:35:19,570 --> 00:35:22,970 S2: these stories in the Gospels. Uh, they might be open 666 00:35:22,969 --> 00:35:25,410 S2: to reading about Jesus miracles in Mark two. And then 667 00:35:25,410 --> 00:35:29,290 S2: while he's healing, he's making a divine claim to forgive sins. 668 00:35:29,770 --> 00:35:34,490 S1: Yeah. Doctor Michael del Rosario has written, Did Jesus really 669 00:35:34,530 --> 00:35:37,969 S1: say he was God? And he goes mainly to the 670 00:35:37,969 --> 00:35:41,609 S1: gospel of Mark and he walks through that. We've been 671 00:35:41,610 --> 00:35:44,930 S1: in in chapter two, we're going to go to chapter 14. 672 00:35:45,290 --> 00:35:47,850 S1: But I want you to think about this in our break. 673 00:35:48,090 --> 00:35:50,770 S1: If there was somebody if there's somebody coming over at 674 00:35:50,770 --> 00:35:53,810 S1: Thanksgiving and sees, you know, you have your your Bible 675 00:35:53,810 --> 00:35:57,090 S1: there and your moody Bible commentary and other things and, 676 00:35:57,410 --> 00:36:00,250 S1: and says to you, look, I'm not I don't base 677 00:36:00,250 --> 00:36:04,690 S1: my life on some ancient book of fairy tales. There's 678 00:36:04,690 --> 00:36:08,120 S1: not a shred of evidence outside the Bible that Jesus 679 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,600 S1: is even real. What would you say to that person 680 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,800 S1: around the table? Or about the the whole fairy tale 681 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,760 S1: nature of this? They made that up. Jesus never said 682 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,640 S1: he was God. That's our featured resource by Doctor Michael 683 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:26,839 S1: del Rosario, forwarded by Darrell Bock from Dallas Seminary. Just 684 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,360 S1: go to Chris Fabry live and you'll see it right there. 685 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:49,680 S1: Chris Fabry live dot. (877) 548-3675 is our number. What a 686 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,760 S1: pleasure to have Doctor Michael Michael del Rosario. I'm always 687 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,000 S1: thinking of the two Michaels I went to three Michaels here. 688 00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,759 S1: Michael Del Rosario, who is a professor of Bible and 689 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,880 S1: theology at Moody Bible Institute, co authored 31 journal articles 690 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:10,910 S1: on apologetics and cultural Engagement in Bibliotheca Sacra with Darrell Bock, 691 00:37:11,310 --> 00:37:13,870 S1: and his new book is out. It just came out 692 00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:16,790 S1: a few weeks ago. Did Jesus really say he was God? 693 00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:20,549 S1: Making sense of his historical claims. Just go to Chris 694 00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:24,230 S1: Fabry live. So if somebody sits down and has some 695 00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:28,430 S1: turkey and stuffing, cranberry sauce, pumpkin pie and says, look, hey, 696 00:37:28,750 --> 00:37:32,189 S1: you keep that Christianity thing to yourself, I'm not going 697 00:37:32,230 --> 00:37:35,950 S1: to base my life on some book of fairy tales. 698 00:37:36,350 --> 00:37:40,469 S1: Really no evidence that Jesus existed. He was real or 699 00:37:40,469 --> 00:37:43,270 S1: that I should follow him with my life. How would 700 00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:45,630 S1: you start the conversation? Response. 701 00:37:46,190 --> 00:37:50,350 S2: Well, we earlier we mentioned Josephus, who is a Jewish historian. 702 00:37:50,350 --> 00:37:54,390 S2: We also talked about Roman historian Tacitus. And so I 703 00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:57,630 S2: would go to those two and talk about Jesus outside 704 00:37:57,630 --> 00:38:01,310 S2: the scriptures. There's actually more sources as well. We can mention, uh, 705 00:38:01,310 --> 00:38:03,830 S2: that have, for example, the Jewish Talmud even that's a 706 00:38:03,830 --> 00:38:05,860 S2: later source. But you still see this idea that Jesus 707 00:38:05,860 --> 00:38:08,819 S2: was known as a miracle worker. Uh, the Talmud calls 708 00:38:08,820 --> 00:38:12,220 S2: him a sorcerer. He was leading people astray. Celsus is 709 00:38:12,219 --> 00:38:14,980 S2: one interesting one. Who, uh, is an ancient author who 710 00:38:14,980 --> 00:38:19,860 S2: says that Jesus used Egyptian magic to do all his miracles. Uh, 711 00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:22,940 S2: what's interesting is to discredit Jesus in the ancient world. 712 00:38:22,940 --> 00:38:25,860 S2: They wouldn't say that he didn't exist, too. They wouldn't 713 00:38:25,860 --> 00:38:27,939 S2: say he never did miracles. They would try to say, 714 00:38:27,940 --> 00:38:30,339 S2: where did the power come from? Ah, he wasn't from God. 715 00:38:30,340 --> 00:38:32,779 S2: He came from below. It wasn't from above. It was 716 00:38:32,780 --> 00:38:36,140 S2: from below. And so that's another enemy attestation thing where 717 00:38:36,140 --> 00:38:40,140 S2: it's like even Jesus disciples, uh, were agreeing with his 718 00:38:40,140 --> 00:38:42,739 S2: enemies that he was doing miracles. It's just that the 719 00:38:42,739 --> 00:38:45,859 S2: enemies didn't believe he was from God. So nobody said 720 00:38:45,860 --> 00:38:48,219 S2: he didn't exist or that he was faking these miracles. 721 00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:51,740 S2: And if you look historically, uh, we find these earmarks 722 00:38:51,739 --> 00:38:55,660 S2: of history, the criteria of authenticity on certain key events 723 00:38:55,660 --> 00:38:57,340 S2: in the life of Jesus that we can talk about. 724 00:38:57,340 --> 00:38:59,460 S2: And that's why I talk about these scenes in my book, 725 00:38:59,460 --> 00:39:01,060 S2: where we can say, even if you don't see the 726 00:39:01,060 --> 00:39:03,730 S2: Bible as an authority, we can look at the answers 727 00:39:03,730 --> 00:39:04,650 S2: of history. 728 00:39:05,050 --> 00:39:09,410 S1: There was also something that was uncovered of where where 729 00:39:09,450 --> 00:39:13,170 S1: people it was recorded, what they were singing about. Jesus. 730 00:39:13,210 --> 00:39:14,569 S1: Do you remember? You know what I'm talking about? 731 00:39:14,610 --> 00:39:16,730 S2: Yeah. There's an ancient author by the name of Pliny 732 00:39:16,770 --> 00:39:19,370 S2: the Younger who said, if we can fault the Christians, 733 00:39:19,370 --> 00:39:21,210 S2: for one thing, they get up super early in the 734 00:39:21,210 --> 00:39:25,410 S2: morning and they sing responsively a hymn to Christ as 735 00:39:25,410 --> 00:39:28,690 S2: unto a God. And what's interesting about that is he 736 00:39:28,690 --> 00:39:32,090 S2: tried to get people to curse Jesus. But in his world, 737 00:39:32,090 --> 00:39:36,009 S2: you wouldn't curse gods. You cursed human beings. And so 738 00:39:36,010 --> 00:39:38,570 S2: in his mind, Jesus was at least a real human person. 739 00:39:38,570 --> 00:39:41,090 S2: He just didn't believe he was God. But here's another 740 00:39:41,090 --> 00:39:45,729 S2: testimony to Jesus being a real historical person who kicked 741 00:39:45,730 --> 00:39:48,810 S2: off this movement where people were worshiping him as a deity. 742 00:39:49,010 --> 00:39:53,250 S2: Now where did that come from? Did that just happen randomly? No. 743 00:39:53,290 --> 00:39:55,930 S2: We can make a historical argument that Jesus actually said 744 00:39:55,930 --> 00:39:59,489 S2: things and did things that led people to believe that 745 00:39:59,489 --> 00:40:02,280 S2: he wasn't a blasphemer like others thought that he really 746 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:02,960 S2: is God. 747 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,719 S1: Yeah. Take us to Mark 14, then. What do we 748 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,279 S1: learn from Mark 14? 749 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,759 S2: Yeah. Mark 14. We see Jesus being a lot more 750 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,240 S2: explicit now about what the Son of Man means and 751 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,400 S2: his identity. What might have been a little bit more 752 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,040 S2: vague in the healing of the paralytic is is a 753 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,239 S2: lot more explicit. Now, these are kind of like bookends 754 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,279 S2: in Jesus ministry. The healing of the paralytic is the 755 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,759 S2: earliest miracle story in the earliest gospel to be written. 756 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,240 S2: And then here we have the, uh, this Jewish examination 757 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,160 S2: of Jesus in Mark 14, where even an atheist scholar 758 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,520 S2: like Bart Ehrman says, a meeting like this had to 759 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,280 S2: have happened for Jesus to end up on the cross. 760 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,319 S2: And in Mark two, he's calling himself the Son of Man. 761 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,799 S2: They call him a blasphemer. And then he points to vindication. 762 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,840 S2: That's the healing of the paralytic proper. In Mark 14, 763 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,359 S2: he also calls himself the Son of Man. They call 764 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,839 S2: him a blasphemer. And then he points to vindication, which 765 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,509 S2: is him having divine authority to judge them. And when 766 00:41:01,510 --> 00:41:04,589 S2: we get right down to it, here's the question. They 767 00:41:04,590 --> 00:41:07,629 S2: just these false witnesses couldn't agree. They're trying to dig 768 00:41:07,630 --> 00:41:10,069 S2: up some political dirt on Jesus that they can take 769 00:41:10,070 --> 00:41:14,469 S2: to the, uh, to the Romans. And Caiaphas, the high priest, 770 00:41:14,469 --> 00:41:17,109 S2: asked Jesus directly. He says, are you the Christ, the 771 00:41:17,110 --> 00:41:20,830 S2: son of the blessed? And Jesus says to him, I am. 772 00:41:20,870 --> 00:41:23,189 S2: Now he could have just said, yes, I am. But 773 00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:25,430 S2: then he says more. He says, and you will see 774 00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:28,150 S2: the Son of Man seated at the right hand of power, 775 00:41:28,150 --> 00:41:32,030 S2: and coming with the clouds of heaven. Wow. Uh, there's 776 00:41:32,030 --> 00:41:33,989 S2: so much in there. But what he's doing is combining 777 00:41:33,989 --> 00:41:37,710 S2: Daniel seven and Psalm 110 when he talks about the 778 00:41:37,710 --> 00:41:40,350 S2: Son of Man seated at God's right hand and coming 779 00:41:40,350 --> 00:41:43,510 S2: on the clouds. This is a divine figure with authority 780 00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:46,790 S2: to judge, authority to judge even the sins of the council. 781 00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:51,470 S2: And Caiaphas himself. And Caiaphas is thinking, we are God's 782 00:41:51,469 --> 00:41:54,589 S2: representatives on planet earth. And who are you? You're going 783 00:41:54,590 --> 00:41:57,350 S2: to judge us? How dare you! Is the whole vibe 784 00:41:57,350 --> 00:42:00,540 S2: in that scene Seeing the location in heaven is important 785 00:42:00,540 --> 00:42:02,580 S2: when he's seated at the right hand of the father, 786 00:42:02,580 --> 00:42:07,180 S2: because he has a heavenly authority to judge. So Jesus 787 00:42:07,180 --> 00:42:10,140 S2: is claiming to have authority in heaven to judge sins 788 00:42:10,140 --> 00:42:13,739 S2: and remember authority on earth to forgive sins. If you 789 00:42:13,739 --> 00:42:16,580 S2: have authority in heaven and on earth, that's authority over 790 00:42:16,580 --> 00:42:19,660 S2: all of reality. And this is another way he claims 791 00:42:19,660 --> 00:42:21,740 S2: to be divine. This is not just a human claim. 792 00:42:21,739 --> 00:42:22,780 S2: That's a divine claim. 793 00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:25,860 S1: So the Son of Man, then, when you're talking about 794 00:42:25,860 --> 00:42:29,739 S1: that with with Daniel, that is Son of God is well, 795 00:42:29,739 --> 00:42:33,140 S1: you can see that he's divine, son of man, he's human. 796 00:42:33,140 --> 00:42:36,500 S1: That's we're not really getting it there. If we say that. 797 00:42:36,500 --> 00:42:38,540 S2: Yeah, a lot of people kind of mix those up 798 00:42:38,540 --> 00:42:41,500 S2: because it just sounds so normal to us in in 799 00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:44,739 S2: our 21st century context. Son of God means deity, and 800 00:42:44,739 --> 00:42:47,779 S2: son of Man means a person. But actually in the 801 00:42:47,780 --> 00:42:50,620 S2: ancient world, it's reversed because kings could call themselves sons 802 00:42:50,620 --> 00:42:53,740 S2: of God. In fact, you have a Roman coinage with 803 00:42:53,780 --> 00:42:57,370 S2: the emperors calling themselves Son of God on there. So 804 00:42:57,370 --> 00:43:00,649 S2: it's a royal. Uh, it's a royal title, but the 805 00:43:00,650 --> 00:43:03,609 S2: Son of Man is actually not just humanity that's pointing 806 00:43:03,650 --> 00:43:07,210 S2: to his transcendence. Because in Daniel chapter seven, there is 807 00:43:07,210 --> 00:43:10,170 S2: this vision, night vision that the prophet Daniel has of 808 00:43:10,170 --> 00:43:11,770 S2: one like a son of man, he looks like a 809 00:43:11,770 --> 00:43:14,730 S2: human being, but he rides the clouds like a deity, 810 00:43:15,090 --> 00:43:18,969 S2: and he is given authority and ruling power, so that 811 00:43:18,969 --> 00:43:20,930 S2: all the nations of the world will worship him, and 812 00:43:20,930 --> 00:43:23,529 S2: his kingdom will be unstoppable. Who is this guy? He's 813 00:43:23,530 --> 00:43:27,330 S2: a human being who also has transcendent qualities outside of scripture. 814 00:43:27,530 --> 00:43:31,130 S2: There's a Jewish text called First Enoch, and in that 815 00:43:31,450 --> 00:43:33,290 S2: there is a scene where the Son of Man is 816 00:43:33,290 --> 00:43:36,410 S2: coming to judge. And those who see the rulers who 817 00:43:36,450 --> 00:43:39,370 S2: see are the ones who are judged. And if that's 818 00:43:39,370 --> 00:43:41,690 S2: in the background as well, I think they're putting these 819 00:43:41,690 --> 00:43:45,489 S2: things together. That's why Caiaphas tore his his clothes and said, 820 00:43:45,489 --> 00:43:48,129 S2: this is blasphemy. You're you're claiming to be more than 821 00:43:48,130 --> 00:43:52,089 S2: a man. You're claiming to have eschatological judgment, authority over 822 00:43:52,130 --> 00:43:55,690 S2: even us who are God's representatives and who are you? Right? 823 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,640 S2: And so this is not just a human claim. This 824 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,640 S2: is a divine claim to have authority to judge. No 825 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,319 S2: one ever made a claim like this before. This is 826 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:04,000 S2: pretty unique. 827 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,160 S1: So the enemies there say you have heard the blasphemy. 828 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:13,480 S1: What is your decision? They all condemned him as deserving death. 829 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,600 S1: So that's why the enemies are so important. There in that, 830 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,720 S1: in that story. Okay, let me let me pull back. 831 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,520 S1: And with our remaining moment here, ask you in in 832 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,840 S1: going through these passages, did Jesus really say he was God? 833 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,520 S1: Considering that, what did this study do to you personally? 834 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:33,680 S2: Oh man, there's so many things I could say about 835 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,600 S2: that one. It increased my faith for all these times 836 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,719 S2: when I was growing up as a high schooler and 837 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,480 S2: people coming to me saying, just like you said, I'm 838 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,759 S2: not going to base my life on a book. There's 839 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,239 S2: no shred of evidence of Jesus or miracles or any 840 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,960 S2: of these things that the deeper we go one, we 841 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,759 S2: don't have to be afraid of these questions, because the 842 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,830 S2: more we study the scriptures, the more we see that 843 00:44:54,989 --> 00:44:57,870 S2: there is evidence for Jesus divine claim and the fact 844 00:44:57,870 --> 00:44:59,590 S2: that he really is God because he rose from the 845 00:44:59,590 --> 00:45:02,430 S2: dead to prove it. But when I talk about Jesus 846 00:45:02,430 --> 00:45:06,509 S2: being Lord in the text, uh, that's a challenge for 847 00:45:06,510 --> 00:45:09,069 S2: us as Christians as well. And we should think about this, 848 00:45:09,070 --> 00:45:12,470 S2: especially as we move into Christmas time, because the word 849 00:45:12,469 --> 00:45:17,150 S2: Lord is how Jesus was incorporated into the very identity 850 00:45:17,150 --> 00:45:19,390 S2: of the God of Israel. So when we say Jesus 851 00:45:19,390 --> 00:45:22,069 S2: is Lord, we're saying He's God. So what areas of 852 00:45:22,070 --> 00:45:23,950 S2: my life do I still need to give over fully 853 00:45:23,950 --> 00:45:27,350 S2: to the Lordship of Jesus? That could be, uh, a 854 00:45:27,550 --> 00:45:29,830 S2: thing to think about every day. A convicting thing. 855 00:45:30,270 --> 00:45:31,990 S1: Let every heart prepare him room. 856 00:45:32,030 --> 00:45:33,030 S2: Right. Yeah. Amen. 857 00:45:34,110 --> 00:45:36,430 S1: Doctor del Rosario, it's great to meet you. I've heard 858 00:45:36,430 --> 00:45:38,750 S1: so much about you. And now I know why. And 859 00:45:38,750 --> 00:45:41,190 S1: you are the apologetics guy. And a lot of the 860 00:45:41,390 --> 00:45:44,310 S1: the guests that I've had on this program you've had 861 00:45:44,350 --> 00:45:48,270 S1: on your YouTube channel. So keep doing what you're doing. 862 00:45:48,270 --> 00:45:50,549 S1: Come back. We'll see if we can get two Michaels 863 00:45:50,550 --> 00:45:53,660 S1: and Michael in here together one time. What does that 864 00:45:53,660 --> 00:45:54,100 S1: sound like? 865 00:45:54,140 --> 00:45:54,940 S2: That sounds great. 866 00:45:55,580 --> 00:46:00,219 S1: Uh, reading from page 198. One reason Jesus did not 867 00:46:00,219 --> 00:46:02,219 S1: go around saying I am God is that he did 868 00:46:02,219 --> 00:46:04,739 S1: not want to be misunderstood as either claiming to be 869 00:46:04,739 --> 00:46:08,819 S1: a rival deity in competition with God the Father, or 870 00:46:08,820 --> 00:46:12,140 S1: claiming to be identical to God the Father. No, he 871 00:46:12,180 --> 00:46:17,060 S1: suggested both a unity and a distinction between Himself and 872 00:46:17,060 --> 00:46:20,540 S1: God the Father. That's from the book. Did Jesus really 873 00:46:20,580 --> 00:46:24,820 S1: say he was God? Making sense of his historical claims. 874 00:46:24,820 --> 00:46:27,460 S1: You can find it at our website. Click through today's 875 00:46:27,460 --> 00:46:32,299 S1: information by Doctor Mikel del Rosario of Moody Bible Institute 876 00:46:32,300 --> 00:46:36,219 S1: Chris Fabry live. Okay, the cat's out of the bag. 877 00:46:36,219 --> 00:46:38,820 S1: The two Michaels are here. Your Bible questions are coming up. 878 00:46:38,820 --> 00:46:41,060 S1: Then I hope you'll join us for Chris favorite live 879 00:46:41,300 --> 00:46:45,300 S1: production of Moody Radio on Ministry of Moody Bible Institute. 880 00:46:45,340 --> 00:46:46,259 S1: Thanks for listening.