1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,320 S1: Hi, friends. This is Janet Partial. Thanks so much for 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:06,600 S1: downloading the broadcast and I hope what you hear will encourage, edify, equip, enlighten, 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,120 S1: and get you out there into the marketplace of ideas. 4 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,160 S1: But before you go, let me tell you about this 5 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,640 S1: month's truce tool. It's written by Robert Morgan, who is 6 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,800 S1: one of my very favorite authors. Through the story of 7 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,400 S1: Zachariah and Elizabeth, we are reminded that God remembers us 8 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,160 S1: and keeps his promises. And what Robert does is he 9 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,920 S1: does a deep dive into Scripture around the birth of 10 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,840 S1: the Messiah and helps us discover the glorious, victorious life 11 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,400 S1: that awaits us in Christ. And in this book, he 12 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,840 S1: reminds us that God has appointed you for this very 13 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,200 S1: special time, that God works grace into your grief, that 14 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,760 S1: God wants to use you, whatever your age. That God 15 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,920 S1: can eradicate fear from your heart, and that God desires 16 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,959 S1: your help in raising up a new generation to serve him. 17 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,519 S1: It is, in a word, a fabulous book, and I 18 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,240 S1: hope you'll want to get a copy. We're listener supported radio, 19 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:53,880 S1: and it's my way of saying thank you. When you 20 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,480 S1: give a financial gift of any amount to in the market. 21 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,840 S1: So to get your copy of God Hasn't Forgotten you, 22 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:04,230 S1: just call 877. Janet 58, that's 877. Janet 58. Give 23 00:01:04,230 --> 00:01:06,030 S1: a gift of any amount and we'll send you a copy. 24 00:01:06,030 --> 00:01:08,149 S1: Or you can do it online in the market with 25 00:01:08,150 --> 00:01:11,389 S1: Janet Parshall. Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's 26 00:01:11,390 --> 00:01:13,710 S1: the cover of the book. Make your donation and I'll 27 00:01:13,709 --> 00:01:16,510 S1: send you a copy of God Hasn't Forgotten You. You 28 00:01:16,510 --> 00:01:19,110 S1: also might want to prayerfully consider becoming a partial partner. 29 00:01:19,110 --> 00:01:21,350 S1: Those are our dear friends who give every single month 30 00:01:21,350 --> 00:01:24,030 S1: at a level of their own choosing. You will always 31 00:01:24,030 --> 00:01:25,949 S1: get the truth tool for the month, but in addition 32 00:01:25,950 --> 00:01:28,550 S1: to that, you will get a weekly newsletter comprised of 33 00:01:28,550 --> 00:01:31,830 S1: my writing and an audio piece just for my partial partners. 34 00:01:31,830 --> 00:01:34,709 S1: So again, thank you in advance for financially supporting in 35 00:01:34,750 --> 00:01:38,030 S1: the market with Janet partial because it keeps us moving forward. 36 00:01:38,069 --> 00:01:41,149 S1: Eight seven, seven Janet 58. Or online at In the 37 00:01:41,190 --> 00:01:45,310 S1: market with Janet Parshall. Now please enjoy the broadcast. 38 00:01:46,709 --> 00:01:48,230 S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 39 00:01:48,510 --> 00:01:50,750 S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 40 00:01:50,950 --> 00:01:52,990 S4: Americans worshiping government over God. 41 00:01:53,310 --> 00:01:56,710 S3: Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years. 42 00:01:56,710 --> 00:01:58,820 S4: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. 43 00:02:13,940 --> 00:02:16,540 S1: Hi friends. Welcome to In the market with Janet Partial. 44 00:02:16,540 --> 00:02:19,260 S1: So glad we're going to spend the hour together. Well, 45 00:02:19,260 --> 00:02:21,300 S1: I've shared the story with you often that the first 46 00:02:21,300 --> 00:02:24,540 S1: year of marriage, my husband taught me the joy and 47 00:02:24,540 --> 00:02:28,180 S1: the thrill of the science of archaeology. Like so many 48 00:02:28,180 --> 00:02:29,940 S1: of you listening all across the country, I thought it 49 00:02:29,940 --> 00:02:32,460 S1: was nothing but dusty bones, and I couldn't think of 50 00:02:32,460 --> 00:02:35,139 S1: a more boring science. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, it is 51 00:02:35,139 --> 00:02:38,540 S1: in fact a science. But through this wonderful guiding of 52 00:02:38,540 --> 00:02:41,180 S1: my husband, who asked as our first Christmas together for 53 00:02:41,180 --> 00:02:45,540 S1: his Christmas present to be a subscription to Biblical Archaeology magazine. 54 00:02:45,540 --> 00:02:48,460 S1: And it was from that point going forward, plus a 55 00:02:48,500 --> 00:02:51,780 S1: half a century where I've discovered, along with my husband Craig, 56 00:02:51,780 --> 00:02:55,580 S1: how fascinating the science of biblical archaeology is, because what 57 00:02:55,580 --> 00:03:00,380 S1: it does is it substantiates and it affirms the historicity, historicity, 58 00:03:00,380 --> 00:03:03,380 S1: and the validity of the scriptures. And to those skeptics 59 00:03:03,780 --> 00:03:05,660 S1: and cynics that are listening, I want you to get 60 00:03:05,660 --> 00:03:07,900 S1: a little closer to your radio this hour, because we're 61 00:03:07,900 --> 00:03:11,820 S1: going to talk about how those extra biblical archaeological findings 62 00:03:11,820 --> 00:03:16,660 S1: do a marvelous job of affirming what is transcendent, knowable, objective, 63 00:03:16,700 --> 00:03:19,180 S1: biblical truth. And we're going to talk with someone who 64 00:03:19,180 --> 00:03:21,260 S1: knows a little something about this subject. It's a joy 65 00:03:21,260 --> 00:03:24,980 S1: to have Doctor Jeremiah Johnson back on the program again. 66 00:03:25,300 --> 00:03:28,700 S1: He is an elected member of the New Testament Scholarly Guild, 67 00:03:28,700 --> 00:03:33,899 S1: Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas, and he serves internationally as president 68 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:37,300 S1: of Christian Thinker Society. Can I pause on that? That 69 00:03:37,300 --> 00:03:38,980 S1: I love the name and I'm going to underscore it 70 00:03:38,980 --> 00:03:41,500 S1: because there is unfortunately some really bad p out there 71 00:03:41,500 --> 00:03:43,820 S1: for us as Christians that we are. According to a 72 00:03:43,820 --> 00:03:46,700 S1: newspaper in my town here in Washington, DC, who later 73 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:50,340 S1: went on to retract the statement but initially said we 74 00:03:50,380 --> 00:03:53,860 S1: are poor, uneducated and easy to command and unfortunately we 75 00:03:53,860 --> 00:03:55,620 S1: give them far too much material to work with to 76 00:03:55,660 --> 00:03:59,450 S1: have them arrive at that erroneous conclusion. So that really matter. 77 00:03:59,450 --> 00:04:00,930 S1: The truth of the matter is, when you come to 78 00:04:00,970 --> 00:04:03,370 S1: faith in Christ, not only is your heart transformed, but 79 00:04:03,370 --> 00:04:06,250 S1: your mind is renewed. So we should be. And historically, 80 00:04:06,250 --> 00:04:09,290 S1: the evidence is there. Some of the sharpest thinkers out 81 00:04:09,290 --> 00:04:11,850 S1: there today, and I've said it before, I'll say it again. 82 00:04:12,170 --> 00:04:14,370 S1: Coming to faith in Jesus Christ is like watching the 83 00:04:14,370 --> 00:04:17,010 S1: Wizard of Oz. You go from black and white into Technicolor, 84 00:04:17,010 --> 00:04:20,130 S1: and suddenly there's form and order and purpose that you 85 00:04:20,130 --> 00:04:22,490 S1: could not see when you were still living. If I 86 00:04:22,490 --> 00:04:25,010 S1: may use the phrase, in darkness. But the people who 87 00:04:25,010 --> 00:04:26,969 S1: lived in darkness have seen a great light. And it's 88 00:04:26,970 --> 00:04:29,610 S1: amazing how all kinds of things come into clear focus 89 00:04:29,610 --> 00:04:32,090 S1: once you come to faith in Jesus Christ. But I 90 00:04:32,089 --> 00:04:34,690 S1: love the way that the Lord gives us these historical 91 00:04:34,690 --> 00:04:37,250 S1: substantiations to let us know that if we seek him, 92 00:04:37,250 --> 00:04:39,090 S1: we will find him when we seek him with all 93 00:04:39,089 --> 00:04:42,089 S1: of our heart. So Jeremiah has done a lot in 94 00:04:42,089 --> 00:04:44,529 S1: this area, by the way. He loves the church. He 95 00:04:44,529 --> 00:04:47,290 S1: serves as the pastor of apologetics and cultural engagement at 96 00:04:47,290 --> 00:04:50,970 S1: Prestonwood Baptist near Dallas. He's also senior fellow of Christian 97 00:04:50,970 --> 00:04:53,850 S1: origins at Dallas Baptist University, and he's the author of 98 00:04:53,850 --> 00:04:57,280 S1: several books, including Body of Proof and the Peace of 99 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,599 S1: God Bible. But he joins us today with his latest 100 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,920 S1: called The Jesus Discoveries ten Historic Finds That Bring Us 101 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,440 S1: Face to Face with Jesus. So this goes to the 102 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,640 S1: reason why I gave you that little backdrop, because this 103 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,520 S1: is really about some of those archaeological finds. But Jeremiah, 104 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,560 S1: let me start with something that you said in your book, 105 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,880 S1: and I'm going to quote you. You say archaeology can 106 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,560 S1: ever prove the resurrection or faith, but it can provide 107 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,440 S1: credible anchors reminder that the people we read about in 108 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,000 S1: the New Testament walked real streets, faced real choices, and 109 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,720 S1: were buried in real tombs. So I consider these to 110 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,080 S1: be anchors, breadcrumbs, whatever word that we want to use 111 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,920 S1: that really and truly affirm not necessarily the modality of 112 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,080 S1: coming to faith, although that may happen for some, but 113 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,680 S1: definitely the affirmation of what was inspired, inerrant, transcendent truth. 114 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,560 S1: How did you get interested in this? 115 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,440 S5: Janet, it's so great to be back on your program 116 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,760 S5: and let me just say how amazing you are. Thank 117 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,310 S5: you for your unyielding Stand for truth. Thank you for 118 00:05:55,310 --> 00:05:58,270 S5: loving truth. Thank you for educating the body of Christ. 119 00:05:58,270 --> 00:06:02,750 S5: I'm just always so honored to be with you and 120 00:06:02,750 --> 00:06:05,830 S5: thankful for just your amazing example to all of us. 121 00:06:05,870 --> 00:06:10,029 S5: I got into archaeology because in many ways I had to. 122 00:06:10,070 --> 00:06:14,429 S5: I was very interested to know, do we actually have 123 00:06:14,430 --> 00:06:19,589 S5: evidence outside of the Bible that supports and confirms the 124 00:06:19,589 --> 00:06:22,670 S5: truth claims within the Word of God? And that was 125 00:06:22,670 --> 00:06:26,310 S5: 20 years ago. And just like Craig did for you, um, 126 00:06:26,310 --> 00:06:29,870 S5: it becomes addictive. You know, truth is addictive. When you, 127 00:06:29,910 --> 00:06:31,750 S5: when you start on the path of truth, it just 128 00:06:31,750 --> 00:06:35,630 S5: becomes addictive. And I found myself in archaeological digs all 129 00:06:35,630 --> 00:06:39,350 S5: over the world. I found myself holding more Bible manuscripts 130 00:06:39,350 --> 00:06:41,910 S5: than probably anyone you've ever talked to. By God's grace. 131 00:06:41,910 --> 00:06:45,230 S5: And what's so amazing about the the Jesus movement, the 132 00:06:45,230 --> 00:06:48,909 S5: Christian movement? It is based in historical fact. And so 133 00:06:49,390 --> 00:06:54,349 S5: other religions cannot say what Christianity can. That archaeology is 134 00:06:54,350 --> 00:06:59,390 S5: Christianity's closest cousin. What do I mean by that? Christianity 135 00:06:59,390 --> 00:07:04,430 S5: comes down to factual events that first Easter weekend. And 136 00:07:04,430 --> 00:07:08,669 S5: if they really happen, Janet, there should be archaeological fallout 137 00:07:08,830 --> 00:07:13,790 S5: in the material world all over the Mediterranean. And guess what? 138 00:07:13,790 --> 00:07:16,910 S5: There is. And so I have three triplets that are 139 00:07:16,910 --> 00:07:19,590 S5: nine years old. As you know, I have two teenagers. 140 00:07:19,590 --> 00:07:23,310 S5: So we have very interesting conversations. And so they challenged me. 141 00:07:23,310 --> 00:07:26,150 S5: They said, dad, tell us everything we can know about Jesus, 142 00:07:26,150 --> 00:07:28,270 S5: but you can't use the Bible. You can only use 143 00:07:28,270 --> 00:07:31,790 S5: sources outside the Bible. And Janet, I decided to write 144 00:07:31,830 --> 00:07:34,830 S5: a book to answer their question and it's full of pictures. 145 00:07:34,870 --> 00:07:38,550 S5: It's tight, crisp chapters that take you on a journey. 146 00:07:38,590 --> 00:07:42,830 S5: Because guess what? We can have 65 facts about the life, death, burial, 147 00:07:42,830 --> 00:07:45,830 S5: and resurrection of Jesus just based on the archaeology. Before 148 00:07:45,830 --> 00:07:48,390 S5: we ever open our Bibles. That's how powerful the Jesus 149 00:07:48,390 --> 00:07:49,190 S5: movement is. 150 00:07:49,230 --> 00:07:51,220 S1: Wow. Okay, so I have to ask you because in 151 00:07:51,540 --> 00:07:55,100 S1: curious minds want to know you. You have one set 152 00:07:55,100 --> 00:07:58,740 S1: of triplets, and of the one set of triplets, one's 153 00:07:58,780 --> 00:08:02,100 S1: name is Abel. And you dedicated this book to him. 154 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:03,660 S1: How did the other two feel about that? 155 00:08:03,900 --> 00:08:06,260 S5: You know, it's caused an anarchy. It's been the book 156 00:08:06,260 --> 00:08:08,900 S5: of judges in our home that everyone does what's right 157 00:08:08,900 --> 00:08:12,140 S5: in their own eyes. Absolute arguments come out because Jackson 158 00:08:12,140 --> 00:08:15,580 S5: was born a minute later. So he gets things after Ryder. 159 00:08:15,580 --> 00:08:17,860 S5: So they're like, dad, can you write two books at 160 00:08:17,860 --> 00:08:21,820 S5: one time so we don't have to wait anymore? That's 161 00:08:21,820 --> 00:08:22,780 S5: the honest answer. 162 00:08:22,980 --> 00:08:27,180 S1: Wow. That's fantastic. Well, I like this because I think 163 00:08:27,180 --> 00:08:30,420 S1: it's an important conversation because we are living somehow in 164 00:08:30,420 --> 00:08:34,140 S1: this postmodern era. Um, we've got two problems on our hands. 165 00:08:34,179 --> 00:08:35,860 S1: First of all, I praise God we live here. It's 166 00:08:35,860 --> 00:08:37,980 S1: a delicious time to be alive as a believer because 167 00:08:37,980 --> 00:08:39,660 S1: it helps us to contend for the faith. I wouldn't 168 00:08:39,660 --> 00:08:42,059 S1: want to be anywhere else, but we've got two problems. 169 00:08:42,059 --> 00:08:46,099 S1: Number one, in the truth area, truth is now markedly individualistic, 170 00:08:46,100 --> 00:08:48,980 S1: which is it's stupidity on its own. I mean, it 171 00:08:48,980 --> 00:08:50,929 S1: doesn't make any sense If you have one truth and 172 00:08:50,929 --> 00:08:53,050 S1: I have another truth, then we cancel each other's truth 173 00:08:53,090 --> 00:08:55,290 S1: out there. For there can be no objective truth that 174 00:08:55,290 --> 00:08:57,449 S1: applies to all people in all times and all places. 175 00:08:57,450 --> 00:08:59,809 S1: But the second part of that is, as we learned 176 00:08:59,809 --> 00:09:03,570 S1: in the Oxford Dictionary word of 2016, we live in 177 00:09:03,570 --> 00:09:06,730 S1: a post-truth era where truth used to be something we 178 00:09:07,010 --> 00:09:10,809 S1: wanted desperately. We could not be satisfied until we found it. 179 00:09:10,850 --> 00:09:13,250 S1: Truth with a capital T, but now we've done a 180 00:09:13,250 --> 00:09:17,010 S1: flip where feelings supersede truth. That's your truth, Jeremiah. That's 181 00:09:17,010 --> 00:09:19,450 S1: not my truth. If it makes you feel good, that's fine. 182 00:09:19,450 --> 00:09:22,010 S1: It doesn't make me feel good. Therefore I reject it. 183 00:09:22,010 --> 00:09:24,730 S1: So with that as a cultural backdrop, talk to me 184 00:09:24,730 --> 00:09:28,690 S1: a little bit more about archaeological evidence in helping to 185 00:09:28,730 --> 00:09:32,209 S1: substantiate the scriptures, because the presupposition in that is you 186 00:09:32,210 --> 00:09:34,130 S1: want to know what truth is as opposed to how 187 00:09:34,130 --> 00:09:36,290 S1: you feel about it. We got a lot to talk about. 188 00:09:36,330 --> 00:09:37,809 S1: In fact, I can tell you right away when you're 189 00:09:37,809 --> 00:09:41,689 S1: with somebody who believes in Christian thinkers like Jeremiah does, 190 00:09:41,690 --> 00:09:56,000 S1: you run out of time back after this. Have you 191 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,640 S1: ever felt abandoned by God like he's forgotten you or 192 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,000 S1: simply stopped listening? That's why I've chosen God Hasn't Forgotten you. 193 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,640 S1: As this month's truth tool through the often overlooked story 194 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,600 S1: of Zechariah and Elizabeth. Author Robert Morgan shows us that 195 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,559 S1: God always keeps his promises. As for your copy of 196 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:12,640 S1: God Hasn't Forgotten You. When you give a gift of 197 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,920 S1: any amount in the market, call 877. Janet 58. That's 877. 198 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,440 S1: Janet 58. Or go to in the market with Janet 199 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:24,720 S1: dot o r g. We have the privilege of spending 200 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,520 S1: the hour with Doctor Jeremiah Johnston, who is a scholar. 201 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,959 S1: He is also the president of Christian Thinker Society, and 202 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,400 S1: he's a wonderful author. Joining us with his newest book, 203 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,040 S1: The Jesus Discoveries ten Historic Finds That Bring Us Face 204 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,600 S1: to Face with Jesus. So I'm taking this out of 205 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,400 S1: order because you do address this in your book, and 206 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,160 S1: I'm so glad you do. You really give us a 207 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,440 S1: kind of prima facie argument on why we need to 208 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,110 S1: have Christian thinkers today, which again is not an oxymoron. 209 00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:51,630 S1: But the world doesn't view us as thinkers. And again, 210 00:10:51,670 --> 00:10:54,670 S1: that's a lot our problem, not the world's problem. So 211 00:10:55,270 --> 00:10:57,949 S1: in this post-truth era in which we find ourselves, when 212 00:10:57,950 --> 00:11:02,150 S1: we look at archaeological, archaeological substantiation of the truths of Scripture, 213 00:11:02,550 --> 00:11:05,070 S1: the presupposition in that is that the seeker, the cynic, 214 00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:08,590 S1: the skeptic A believes that truth is knowable, and that a, 215 00:11:08,630 --> 00:11:11,110 S1: B they're interested in finding it. So c whether they 216 00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:14,470 S1: feel good about it or not, it's been substantiated. So 217 00:11:14,750 --> 00:11:17,550 S1: those are tumultuous waters. We have to navigate that. Maybe 218 00:11:17,550 --> 00:11:19,750 S1: 30 years ago we didn't. So how do we do that? 219 00:11:20,350 --> 00:11:23,110 S5: Well, we do that by always coming back to what 220 00:11:23,110 --> 00:11:26,910 S5: is true. And truth corresponds with reality. That's what's great 221 00:11:26,910 --> 00:11:29,790 S5: about it. It's really not hard to to define truth. 222 00:11:29,790 --> 00:11:32,270 S5: Truth corresponds with reality. And so you could get on 223 00:11:32,270 --> 00:11:34,390 S5: a plane with me and I could take you to 224 00:11:34,429 --> 00:11:37,190 S5: the land of Israel. I could take you to Jerusalem. 225 00:11:37,190 --> 00:11:40,110 S5: I could take you to the very spot where Jesus 226 00:11:40,110 --> 00:11:44,070 S5: rose from the grave on April 5th, 8033. And we 227 00:11:44,070 --> 00:11:46,590 S5: can actually say, oh, this the Bible is actually true 228 00:11:46,590 --> 00:11:49,630 S5: because it's about real people, real places, real events. And 229 00:11:49,630 --> 00:11:53,790 S5: this is why Luke, when he opens up his amazing sequel, 230 00:11:53,830 --> 00:11:57,710 S5: his actual his first gospel, he says that we can 231 00:11:57,710 --> 00:12:01,309 S5: have a certainty of those things that we believe. That's 232 00:12:01,350 --> 00:12:05,750 S5: Luke one, verse four, because it's based on evidence that 233 00:12:05,750 --> 00:12:09,270 S5: corresponds with reality. Other religions cannot claim that. 234 00:12:09,309 --> 00:12:14,469 S1: Yeah, absolutely. So for the believer, archaeology should affirm what 235 00:12:14,470 --> 00:12:17,430 S1: we already believe. Herein lies also a challenge for us. 236 00:12:17,429 --> 00:12:20,150 S1: If you believe Doctor George Barna's research and I do 237 00:12:20,429 --> 00:12:23,670 S1: at the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University. It's 238 00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:27,990 S1: an abysmal report about our. As believers believing in an 239 00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:34,030 S1: applied Christianity. Our biblical worldview is abysmal, and particularly in 240 00:12:34,030 --> 00:12:38,950 S1: the up and coming generation, it's negligible. So again, should 241 00:12:38,950 --> 00:12:41,550 S1: this be used as a way of helping to disciple 242 00:12:41,630 --> 00:12:45,860 S1: believers as well as used to encourage non-believers. 243 00:12:46,340 --> 00:12:50,060 S5: Absolutely. Because what we're doing is experiential archaeology. Let me 244 00:12:50,059 --> 00:12:52,340 S5: make this very clear. And I've had to do this 245 00:12:52,380 --> 00:12:56,740 S5: on many podcasts recently. Faith is always defined by its object. 246 00:12:56,740 --> 00:12:59,420 S5: We do not have faith in faith. We have faith 247 00:12:59,420 --> 00:13:01,860 S5: in an object and a set of facts. Our faith 248 00:13:01,860 --> 00:13:05,220 S5: is in Jesus Christ based on the fact that the 249 00:13:05,220 --> 00:13:08,699 S5: original Curcuma from First Corinthians 15 three through seven that 250 00:13:08,700 --> 00:13:12,140 S5: says Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures. 251 00:13:12,140 --> 00:13:15,340 S5: He was buried and on the third day rose from 252 00:13:15,340 --> 00:13:19,220 S5: the grave according to the scriptures. And so, Janet, why 253 00:13:19,220 --> 00:13:21,980 S5: this matters. There are a lot of wonderful Christians out there. 254 00:13:22,020 --> 00:13:23,980 S5: They're fine Christians. They're like, you know, Jeremiah, I don't 255 00:13:23,980 --> 00:13:25,620 S5: need your book. I don't need to know any evidence 256 00:13:25,620 --> 00:13:28,660 S5: for my faith. I just believe, well, you're more pious 257 00:13:28,660 --> 00:13:31,459 S5: than any of the New Testament writers, because none of 258 00:13:31,460 --> 00:13:35,820 S5: them would have written a single word of the 138,000 259 00:13:35,860 --> 00:13:38,220 S5: words of the Greek New Testament. Had they not had 260 00:13:38,220 --> 00:13:41,100 S5: evidence that Jesus did what he said he would do, 261 00:13:41,140 --> 00:13:43,100 S5: he would die. The Son of Man comes to seek 262 00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:46,130 S5: and save that which is lost. He gave evidence. What 263 00:13:46,130 --> 00:13:50,010 S5: I love about it. Thomas was doubting Janet. He said, 264 00:13:50,050 --> 00:13:53,569 S5: you know, and he missed the resurrection appearance. And he said, hey, 265 00:13:53,570 --> 00:13:55,410 S5: if I don't see the nail scars, if I don't 266 00:13:55,410 --> 00:13:57,410 S5: see the side wound, I'm not going to believe. And 267 00:13:57,410 --> 00:14:00,130 S5: what I love about Jesus, he doesn't shame Thomas. He 268 00:14:00,130 --> 00:14:02,490 S5: sharpens him. He gives him evidence, and Thomas believes. And 269 00:14:02,490 --> 00:14:04,050 S5: that's what my book can do for people. 270 00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:06,209 S1: Wow. You brought up Thomas, and I'm so glad you did. 271 00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:08,329 S1: Because I was reading your book. I thought about this. 272 00:14:08,370 --> 00:14:12,449 S1: You know, Thomas didn't want evidence. Jesus had been crucified, 273 00:14:12,450 --> 00:14:15,810 S1: bodily resurrected, walks through a door that should in and 274 00:14:15,850 --> 00:14:19,050 S1: of itself have been a substantiation. What Thomas wanted was 275 00:14:19,050 --> 00:14:22,490 S1: super evidence. So he had to put his hands in 276 00:14:22,530 --> 00:14:25,290 S1: the holes in the side and in his hands as well. 277 00:14:25,610 --> 00:14:29,650 S1: And that that to me, I'm wondering, is something that 278 00:14:29,650 --> 00:14:32,010 S1: we're dealing with now in a post-truth world, which is 279 00:14:32,010 --> 00:14:34,170 S1: people don't just want evidence, they need a kind of 280 00:14:34,210 --> 00:14:37,090 S1: super evidence. And in the end, you could have a 281 00:14:37,090 --> 00:14:40,650 S1: legal standard, a preponderance of evidence. And yet some people 282 00:14:40,650 --> 00:14:42,440 S1: are going to say that's still not enough for me 283 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,120 S1: at some point. Evidence or not. I mean, this is 284 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:46,800 S1: if you were arguing a trial in front of a jury, 285 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,600 S1: you can put all the evidence you want. You could say, 286 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,120 S1: I've got an open and shut case. But in that 287 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,920 S1: jury room, those 12 people are going to look and 288 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,920 S1: sift and weigh the evidence. But at the end, it 289 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,120 S1: is going to be a hard decision for every single 290 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,000 S1: one of them. So the archaeology is good. Can it 291 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,160 S1: stimulate the person to get to the point where the 292 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,520 S1: heart is going to be receptive to the gospel message? 293 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,480 S5: That's exactly right. And the beauty is the scales of 294 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,680 S5: truth tip in our favor. But where I love your program, Janet, 295 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,280 S5: is every day you educate us in our faith. The 296 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,200 S5: deeper we go in Christianity, the deeper we go in 297 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,160 S5: the Word of God, the more rock solid it becomes. 298 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,160 S5: And that's the delight of the Christian walk is like, wow, 299 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,960 S5: I can actually walk to all these cities that are 300 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,360 S5: mentioned in the Gospel of Luke and the book of acts, 301 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,040 S5: and I can see and experience do experiential archaeology like 302 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,400 S5: you did with Craig, where it makes your faith alive. 303 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,800 S5: And it allows you also to interpret the Bible with 304 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,990 S5: more precision. That's the amazing clarity that I give in my. 305 00:15:44,030 --> 00:15:47,750 S5: In my new book, The Jesus Discoveries, is thanks to 306 00:15:47,790 --> 00:15:51,790 S5: the science of archaeology. We can actually interpret the scriptures 307 00:15:51,790 --> 00:15:54,110 S5: with more accuracy and then apply it to our lives 308 00:15:54,110 --> 00:15:55,070 S5: with more power. 309 00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:57,470 S1: Yeah. Amen. So let me look at these. Now I'm 310 00:15:57,470 --> 00:15:59,390 S1: going to tell my friends. Fair warning. And you always 311 00:15:59,390 --> 00:16:01,710 S1: hear me say this about books I love. There are 312 00:16:01,710 --> 00:16:04,990 S1: ten historical finds that Jeremiah addresses in the book. This 313 00:16:04,990 --> 00:16:06,710 S1: is not a fireside chat. It's not a book review. 314 00:16:06,710 --> 00:16:08,190 S1: I'm not going to get to all ten. But I 315 00:16:08,190 --> 00:16:10,430 S1: do want to pique your curiosity to the point where 316 00:16:10,430 --> 00:16:11,710 S1: you go, I got to get the book. I got 317 00:16:11,710 --> 00:16:13,350 S1: to find out what the other ones are so that 318 00:16:13,350 --> 00:16:14,910 S1: you're really going to dive in. We don't want to 319 00:16:14,910 --> 00:16:18,110 S1: get you excited about the science of archaeology as part 320 00:16:18,110 --> 00:16:21,310 S1: of your Christian apologetic in the marketplace of ideas. So 321 00:16:21,310 --> 00:16:24,230 S1: I love stories about ossuaries. And you have to explain, 322 00:16:24,230 --> 00:16:26,710 S1: first of all, to our friends when an ossuary is. 323 00:16:26,750 --> 00:16:29,190 S1: And then in particular, I remember when this story broke, 324 00:16:29,190 --> 00:16:33,270 S1: it was great cannon fodder for much dinner conversation at 325 00:16:33,270 --> 00:16:35,630 S1: the partial household for quite some time. But what is 326 00:16:35,630 --> 00:16:37,070 S1: an ossuary, for starters? 327 00:16:37,510 --> 00:16:39,430 S5: An ossuary? If you and I. Janet lived in the 328 00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:43,710 S5: first century for about 300 years in late Second Temple Judaism. 329 00:16:43,870 --> 00:16:47,430 S5: If I died, you would have buried me in a tomb. 330 00:16:47,430 --> 00:16:51,150 S5: And then one year later, on usually the anniversary of 331 00:16:51,150 --> 00:16:54,670 S5: my death, you would have collected my bones and you 332 00:16:54,670 --> 00:16:59,310 S5: would have put them in a family bone box. Ossuary 333 00:16:59,350 --> 00:17:02,990 S5: simply means bone collecting. And you would put all of 334 00:17:02,990 --> 00:17:06,750 S5: the bones so the family buried together, stays together. And 335 00:17:06,750 --> 00:17:08,310 S5: so if you go to the Mount of Olives today, 336 00:17:08,310 --> 00:17:12,390 S5: you'll see over 100,000 burial boxes. And we'll get to 337 00:17:12,430 --> 00:17:16,590 S5: why that's so important for a relative of Jesus. James. 338 00:17:16,590 --> 00:17:18,310 S5: So people need to stay tuned for that. 339 00:17:19,109 --> 00:17:22,070 S1: You'd think you've done this a time or two. Jeremiah. Absolutely. 340 00:17:22,070 --> 00:17:25,150 S1: So picture this bone box archaeological dig. They find one 341 00:17:25,150 --> 00:17:28,110 S1: with the name James on it. Well, who is this James, 342 00:17:28,109 --> 00:17:29,629 S1: and why should you and I care? We're going to 343 00:17:29,630 --> 00:17:53,540 S1: talk about that when we get back. We're visiting with 344 00:17:53,540 --> 00:17:57,260 S1: New Testament scholar and president of Christian Thinkers Society, Doctor 345 00:17:57,260 --> 00:18:00,820 S1: Jeremiah Johnston. His latest book is called The Jesus Discoveries 346 00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:04,460 S1: ten Historic Finds That Bring Us Face to Face with Jesus. 347 00:18:04,460 --> 00:18:06,740 S1: When last we met, we were talking about a bone 348 00:18:06,740 --> 00:18:09,980 S1: box called an ossuary. They do this archaeological dig. They 349 00:18:09,980 --> 00:18:12,300 S1: find one with the name of James on it. Now 350 00:18:12,340 --> 00:18:14,940 S1: take the story from there, Jeremiah, because I think it's fascinating. 351 00:18:15,140 --> 00:18:18,540 S5: It is fascinating because often all the if you go 352 00:18:18,540 --> 00:18:20,500 S5: to the Mount of Olives today, you'll see these bone 353 00:18:20,540 --> 00:18:24,580 S5: boxes and that's in Jerusalem. You'll see 125,000 of them 354 00:18:24,580 --> 00:18:28,700 S5: on the Mount of Olives. But what's fascinating and provocative 355 00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:32,060 S5: about this bone box is unlike others, which would say, 356 00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:37,930 S5: like Jeremiah, son of Craig, this one says James, son 357 00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:43,930 S5: of Joseph, brother of Jesus. Five words, 50 characters. Yet 358 00:18:43,930 --> 00:18:49,530 S5: the implications are staggering. And the epigraphers. That's a big 359 00:18:49,530 --> 00:18:51,850 S5: word for those that study these kinds of things that 360 00:18:51,850 --> 00:18:55,330 S5: are insist on, um, ossuaries. And by the way, Janet, 361 00:18:55,330 --> 00:18:58,450 S5: you're talking to someone who's probably held more ossuaries than 362 00:18:58,450 --> 00:19:01,050 S5: been in more tombs than anyone you've ever interviewed before. 363 00:19:01,090 --> 00:19:05,290 S5: I was in Emmaus recently filming, and someone clapped and 364 00:19:05,290 --> 00:19:07,930 S5: I said, why are you clapping? And they said, JJ, 365 00:19:08,210 --> 00:19:10,570 S5: we're clapping to scare the snakes away from you. You 366 00:19:10,570 --> 00:19:13,770 S5: need to do this in one take. So I've been 367 00:19:13,770 --> 00:19:16,129 S5: in a lot of tombs. I've seen a lot of 368 00:19:16,130 --> 00:19:19,730 S5: boom boxes. There's only one that has this simple but 369 00:19:19,730 --> 00:19:24,650 S5: powerful inscription that authenticates the fact that John James not 370 00:19:24,650 --> 00:19:28,090 S5: only was the son of Joseph, but the brother of Jesus. 371 00:19:28,090 --> 00:19:31,930 S5: And why that's important is first Corinthians 15 seven tells 372 00:19:31,930 --> 00:19:35,730 S5: us that Jesus and his resurrection appeared to his brother James, 373 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,879 S5: who according to John seven verse five, did not believe 374 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,880 S5: in him during his life and ministry. It took the resurrection, 375 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,159 S5: it took evidence. And yet Paul then refers to James 376 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,280 S5: as the Lord's brother. And that's what this ossuary says. 377 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,040 S5: So based on this evidence, which was discovered in 2002, 378 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,720 S5: which 99% of your listeners have never heard of until now. 379 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,800 S5: I actually have pictures of it in my new book, 380 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,040 S5: The Jesus Discoveries where I can show you. We can actually, 381 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,439 S5: we know from Josephus that James dies believing his brother 382 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,679 S5: is the Messiah in A.D. 62. So we have to 383 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,119 S5: ask ourselves, I'm a dad of four sons. None of 384 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,359 S5: my boys think the other one is the Son of God. 385 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:15,800 S5: I mean, what would it take for you to think 386 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,760 S5: your brother was the Messiah, the sinless Son of God? 387 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,000 S5: It would take a lot of evidence. And that's where 388 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,760 S5: this is cool, that the emergence, the intersection of evidence 389 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,080 S5: and faith that comes together in the James Ossuary. 390 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,520 S1: Well, and James is such an interesting story because he 391 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,119 S1: goes from literally thinking his brother is mentally ill to 392 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,040 S1: laying down his life for the cross. So and you 393 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,560 S1: enumerate several reasons why this is important, and I loved 394 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,320 S1: one of them in particular. You said it helps us 395 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,280 S1: avoid the errors we see in some popular books and documentaries. 396 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,360 S1: You didn't name names, but please, can you talk about this? 397 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,520 S1: Because I'm so tired of standing in the checkout line 398 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,639 S1: of a grocery store and suddenly they found the real 399 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,840 S1: Jesus or Hollywood picks up on. Um, you know, some 400 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,719 S1: Dan Brown novel where he writes ex nihilo the world's 401 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,000 S1: worst mythology about Jesus. So when we look at archaeological evidence, 402 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,200 S1: does it not affirm and negate the mythology of these 403 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,880 S1: people who are pushing another gospel 1,000%? 404 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,280 S5: And unfortunately, we have the most gullible Christians of all time. 405 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,400 S5: And again, that's why your show in the market with 406 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,359 S5: Janet Parshall is absolute subscription material. You have to listen 407 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,239 S5: to it, support it. Because in this growing age, and 408 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:20,679 S5: I don't know if you're aware of this, Janet, but 409 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,239 S5: I recently just spoke at the World Economic Forum in 410 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,280 S5: Davos and Davos. Yes. Gospel to all the people that 411 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,400 S5: are going to work with the Antichrist someday. There is 412 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,639 S5: a whole world out there that is banking on you 413 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,550 S5: relying on AI for your truth, not for the Bible. 414 00:21:36,550 --> 00:21:43,230 S5: And that's very dangerous because AI will actually, um, just 415 00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:46,670 S5: simply give you facts that are not facts. They're fake. 416 00:21:46,670 --> 00:21:49,189 S5: And what we love about the Bible is the Bible 417 00:21:49,190 --> 00:21:52,990 S5: is timeless, absolute truth. And back to James's journey from 418 00:21:52,990 --> 00:21:56,350 S5: skeptic to literally the leader of the church. He becomes, 419 00:21:56,550 --> 00:21:58,710 S5: he becomes a pillar of the church. But it was 420 00:21:58,710 --> 00:22:02,510 S5: based on evidence. And his death isn't just a historical datum. 421 00:22:02,510 --> 00:22:04,710 S5: It's a testimony for us, for the truth of the 422 00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:07,710 S5: resurrection of Jesus. And that's what we need. That's what 423 00:22:07,710 --> 00:22:10,389 S5: our faith comes down to. And his conversion. What I 424 00:22:10,390 --> 00:22:14,750 S5: love about this too, it wasn't emotionalism. It was experiential. 425 00:22:14,950 --> 00:22:17,869 S5: His brother appeared to him alive after he was dead. 426 00:22:17,869 --> 00:22:20,750 S5: And from that moment on, James gave everything for the gospel. 427 00:22:20,750 --> 00:22:23,909 S5: And so my hope is that people hearing this broadcast 428 00:22:23,910 --> 00:22:26,389 S5: and reading my book, well, they'll give everything for the 429 00:22:26,430 --> 00:22:29,630 S5: gospel too. They'll go out like James, full throttle for 430 00:22:29,630 --> 00:22:30,430 S5: Jesus Christ. 431 00:22:30,670 --> 00:22:33,420 S1: Amen and amen. Let me talk about another one. And 432 00:22:33,420 --> 00:22:36,859 S1: you talk about the inscription that was nailed over Jesus's 433 00:22:36,859 --> 00:22:39,340 S1: head on the cross, King of the Jews. You know, 434 00:22:39,380 --> 00:22:41,939 S1: we kind of pass over that very often. It's sometimes 435 00:22:41,940 --> 00:22:43,860 S1: portrayed in one of the multiple films you'll see that 436 00:22:43,859 --> 00:22:47,420 S1: contain a crucifixion scene, but there's real profundity in why 437 00:22:47,420 --> 00:22:50,060 S1: those words in particular were chosen. Walk us through that. 438 00:22:50,420 --> 00:22:53,540 S5: Yeah. This is called in Latin, the titulus, the condemnation. 439 00:22:53,540 --> 00:22:56,180 S5: And we actually have an exhibit where I travel, and 440 00:22:56,180 --> 00:23:01,420 S5: I take people through the different posts of how Jesus 441 00:23:01,420 --> 00:23:04,020 S5: died for our sins, what it cost, and what a 442 00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:06,700 S5: great cost it was, and how God demonstrates his love 443 00:23:06,700 --> 00:23:09,220 S5: for us. According to Romans five eight. And I get 444 00:23:09,220 --> 00:23:13,180 S5: to the titulus. And this is important because Jesus is condemned. 445 00:23:13,460 --> 00:23:16,979 S5: And Pontius Pilate says, this is the King of the Jews, 446 00:23:16,980 --> 00:23:19,580 S5: and he writes it in three different languages Hebrew, Greek, 447 00:23:19,580 --> 00:23:23,980 S5: and Aramaic, which Jesus spoke all three. And this is Passover. 448 00:23:24,020 --> 00:23:26,100 S5: A quarter of a million people would have been coming 449 00:23:26,100 --> 00:23:29,500 S5: by to see these crucifixions and to see Jesus. And 450 00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:32,570 S5: he says, this is the King of the Jews. And 451 00:23:32,570 --> 00:23:35,050 S5: if you recall, the Pharisees tried to get him to 452 00:23:35,090 --> 00:23:37,330 S5: change it. They said, oh, you made a typo. You 453 00:23:37,330 --> 00:23:39,449 S5: need to say, he said he was the king of 454 00:23:39,450 --> 00:23:41,330 S5: the Jews. And Pilate comes back and says, no, what 455 00:23:41,330 --> 00:23:44,290 S5: I've written, I have written. Here's the power of learning 456 00:23:44,290 --> 00:23:47,770 S5: about the titulus. Romans eight one says that when you 457 00:23:47,770 --> 00:23:50,690 S5: and I come to faith in Jesus Christ, not based 458 00:23:50,690 --> 00:23:54,170 S5: on anything we could do, but because of his amazing grace, 459 00:23:54,170 --> 00:23:58,130 S5: there is now therefore no condemnation. Do you hear that? 460 00:23:58,369 --> 00:24:01,530 S5: To those who are in Jesus Christ, because Jesus took 461 00:24:01,530 --> 00:24:04,450 S5: all of our condemnation. And so when we look at 462 00:24:04,450 --> 00:24:06,730 S5: the titulus, when we look at the fact that Jesus 463 00:24:06,730 --> 00:24:11,330 S5: literally died and was condemned and had a certificate of 464 00:24:11,330 --> 00:24:15,050 S5: condemnation on us, that's why Paul, in Colossians 214 says 465 00:24:15,050 --> 00:24:18,250 S5: he took all of our indebtedness, nailed it to the cross, 466 00:24:18,250 --> 00:24:20,450 S5: and we don't bear it anymore. Praise the Lord. 467 00:24:20,609 --> 00:24:24,050 S1: Amen and amen. Ours is going far too quickly. And remember, 468 00:24:24,050 --> 00:24:27,450 S1: there are ten historic finds that Doctor Jeremiah Johnson talks 469 00:24:27,450 --> 00:24:30,280 S1: about in his book. We've just lightly touched on two, 470 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,399 S1: but he does beautifully and he's alluded to this a 471 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,639 S1: couple of times, is there are photographs and there are 472 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,760 S1: graphics that will help you understand. I hope you fall 473 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,040 S1: in love with the science of archaeology. And like me, 474 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,359 S1: you'll be a convert to its importance, particularly in your 475 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,360 S1: role as a Christian apologist. That this is a science 476 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,880 S1: that substantiates transcendent truth. That's pretty spectacular. More with Doctor 477 00:24:50,880 --> 00:25:10,520 S1: Johnson right after this. We live in complicated times and 478 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,479 S1: in the market. We're helping you interpret complex cultural issues 479 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,040 S1: through the lens of scripture. Our team of partial partners 480 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,640 S1: is growing. And to say thank you, they receive exclusive 481 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,600 S1: information from me. In fact, I talked to you directly 482 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,480 S1: from my personal computer to yours by email. Become a 483 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,280 S1: partial partner today and you'll receive these exclusive benefits. Call 484 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,240 S1: 877 Janet 58. Or go online to In the Market 485 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:37,040 S1: with Janet Parshall. We are visiting with Doctor Jeremiah Johnston, 486 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,359 S1: who is an elected member of the New Testament Scholarly Guild, 487 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,959 S1: Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas. He also serves as president of 488 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,400 S1: Christian Thinkers Society. He is the pastor of apologetics and 489 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,200 S1: cultural engagement at Prestonwood Baptist Church near Dallas, as well 490 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,160 S1: as senior fellow of Christian Origins at Dallas Baptist University. 491 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,439 S1: He's a wonderful author, and his latest book is Why 492 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,600 S1: We're Having a conversation today. It's called The Jesus Discoveries 493 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,399 S1: ten Historic Finds That Bring Us Face to Face with Jesus. 494 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,880 S1: This is my biggest block in the hour, Jeremiah, and 495 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,240 S1: it's why I wanted to save this conversation for this block, 496 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,800 S1: because you and I are having what my mother would 497 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,440 S1: call a delicious conversation. They're the kind that make you think, 498 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,960 S1: and they get you excited about what you're talking about. 499 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,359 S1: And let me just preface this by saying that whether 500 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,160 S1: you and I agree on this is not a reason 501 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,080 S1: for disfellowship, it is a reason for us to have 502 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,990 S1: more conversations and to fall more deeply in love with 503 00:26:27,990 --> 00:26:29,910 S1: the Word of God. But I want to talk about 504 00:26:29,910 --> 00:26:31,709 S1: the Shroud of Turin, because you're doing a lot of 505 00:26:31,710 --> 00:26:34,310 S1: talking about this lately with an awful lot of people. 506 00:26:34,310 --> 00:26:36,190 S1: And let me I'm going to give you the floor 507 00:26:36,190 --> 00:26:38,790 S1: in a second and give you the opportunity to give 508 00:26:38,790 --> 00:26:42,070 S1: all the evidence, which I think is fascinating. Um, I 509 00:26:42,109 --> 00:26:44,390 S1: have a little bit of a problem with the shroud 510 00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:48,350 S1: for several reasons. Number one, I have a problem with relics. Okay. 511 00:26:48,670 --> 00:26:51,030 S1: I'm looking at some of the relics right now. We've 512 00:26:51,030 --> 00:26:54,350 S1: got the true cross fragments are spread across various churches. 513 00:26:54,590 --> 00:26:57,909 S1: The face cloth that covered Jesus's head, the crown of thorns, 514 00:26:57,910 --> 00:27:01,390 S1: which are supposedly in Paris and in Rome. The holy chalice. 515 00:27:01,390 --> 00:27:03,990 S1: Thank you, Indiana Jones. The cup used at the last dinner. 516 00:27:04,030 --> 00:27:07,270 S1: The veil of Veronica. The cloth used to wipe Christ's face. 517 00:27:07,270 --> 00:27:10,590 S1: The stairs that Jesus climbed to go to pilots court 518 00:27:10,590 --> 00:27:13,150 S1: are now somewhere in Rome. And that doesn't count. And 519 00:27:13,150 --> 00:27:16,109 S1: I've seen these things, the bones of Peter and Paul 520 00:27:16,109 --> 00:27:19,350 S1: that are in Saint Peter's Basilica, uh, the incorrupt tongue 521 00:27:19,390 --> 00:27:23,550 S1: of Saint Anthony of Padua. That's in Padua, Italy, naturally. Uh, 522 00:27:23,750 --> 00:27:26,459 S1: Saint Catherine of Siena. Her head is one place. Her 523 00:27:26,460 --> 00:27:29,179 S1: body is in another place, I mean. Um, and the 524 00:27:29,180 --> 00:27:32,860 S1: Catholic Church, for the record, is the primary possessor of 525 00:27:32,859 --> 00:27:35,619 S1: the shroud right now. I have a problem with relics. 526 00:27:35,619 --> 00:27:37,980 S1: Tell me where my thinking is wrong on that. 527 00:27:38,340 --> 00:27:40,500 S5: Well, I totally agree with you. And let me just 528 00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:45,380 S5: say you totally made your point. Um, I could just 529 00:27:45,420 --> 00:27:47,619 S5: add one. You know, the three wise men, and we 530 00:27:47,619 --> 00:27:51,900 S5: know they're three because they're buried, supposedly in Cologne, Cologne, Germany. 531 00:27:51,940 --> 00:27:52,500 S1: Exactly. 532 00:27:52,540 --> 00:27:55,940 S5: They're in the cathedral. So I, you know, I have 533 00:27:56,180 --> 00:27:59,260 S5: thousands of negative comments against me on YouTube because I 534 00:27:59,260 --> 00:28:01,500 S5: made the statement on on a show that I have 535 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:05,060 S5: an allergic reaction to Catholic relics. And so I am 536 00:28:05,060 --> 00:28:07,620 S5: with you on that. As a good Protestant. I've been 537 00:28:07,619 --> 00:28:10,660 S5: Baptist since before I was born. I was Baptist since 538 00:28:10,660 --> 00:28:13,780 S5: before I became a Christian. And but yet I am 539 00:28:13,780 --> 00:28:16,340 S5: a historian and I'm addicted to truth. And here's where 540 00:28:16,340 --> 00:28:19,940 S5: the Shroud of Turin differs from the 20,000 different relics 541 00:28:19,940 --> 00:28:22,820 S5: that the Catholic Church has. First, I had to learn 542 00:28:22,820 --> 00:28:25,609 S5: that the shroud actually did not come into the possession 543 00:28:25,609 --> 00:28:30,490 S5: into the Catholic Church until 1985. That's very important to notate. 544 00:28:30,650 --> 00:28:33,970 S5: It was in private Christian hands until the mid 80s, 545 00:28:33,970 --> 00:28:37,889 S5: where it was bequeathed to John Paul, the second from 546 00:28:37,890 --> 00:28:40,450 S5: the Savoy family. I thought it had always been in 547 00:28:40,450 --> 00:28:42,690 S5: Catholic hands, which is fascinating to me, is we actually 548 00:28:42,690 --> 00:28:45,930 S5: don't give the Greek Orthodox enough credit because for the 549 00:28:45,930 --> 00:28:49,890 S5: first thousand years they protected the shroud from the Islamic State, 550 00:28:49,930 --> 00:28:52,890 S5: killing all the Christians they could. Beginning in the seventh century, 551 00:28:52,890 --> 00:28:56,130 S5: but I digress. And so the shroud has been. The 552 00:28:56,130 --> 00:28:59,410 S5: shroud is not a relic. It is an artifact. That's 553 00:28:59,410 --> 00:29:03,130 S5: a very important distinction. It has been studied, Janet, by 554 00:29:03,130 --> 00:29:07,850 S5: 102 academic disciplines that have published more than 600,000 hours 555 00:29:07,850 --> 00:29:12,410 S5: of peer reviewed academic research. And these are studies from 556 00:29:12,570 --> 00:29:15,530 S5: men and women who are scholars. They're not pastors. They're 557 00:29:15,530 --> 00:29:18,970 S5: not theologians. They don't have a theological axe to grind. 558 00:29:19,170 --> 00:29:21,450 S5: And what they have proven, and that's the first time 559 00:29:21,450 --> 00:29:24,850 S5: I've used proven on your amazing show is. They have 560 00:29:24,850 --> 00:29:28,810 S5: proven that the image in the shroud, which contains the 561 00:29:28,810 --> 00:29:31,850 S5: image of a crucified man that matches the biblical description 562 00:29:31,850 --> 00:29:34,530 S5: of Jesus, is not pain. It's not die. It's not pigment. 563 00:29:34,530 --> 00:29:38,650 S5: There are no brushstrokes. The greatest scientific minds of the day, 564 00:29:38,650 --> 00:29:40,810 S5: and I trust me, I've traveled the world because nobody 565 00:29:40,810 --> 00:29:44,170 S5: was more skeptical of the shroud than me. And they 566 00:29:44,210 --> 00:29:47,090 S5: cannot explain how. There is an image in this cloth 567 00:29:47,090 --> 00:29:51,130 S5: that has a 3D encoded information on it. And so 568 00:29:51,490 --> 00:29:53,890 S5: I like to tell people, I believe the shroud is 569 00:29:53,890 --> 00:29:57,970 S5: authentic because I'm not irrational based on the evidence. 570 00:29:59,170 --> 00:30:03,250 S1: HMM. Okay. Um, let me go back to Providence. This 571 00:30:03,250 --> 00:30:05,770 S1: is big. Anybody who knows, for example, if you're buying 572 00:30:05,770 --> 00:30:07,250 S1: a piece of art, you want to know who had 573 00:30:07,250 --> 00:30:09,530 S1: it initially. You wanted to know where it came from, 574 00:30:09,530 --> 00:30:11,090 S1: how you can tell if it's a counterfeit from the 575 00:30:11,090 --> 00:30:13,410 S1: original you write in the book. And that's interesting to 576 00:30:13,450 --> 00:30:16,330 S1: talk about in 1985. And the significance of that date 577 00:30:16,490 --> 00:30:20,170 S1: being turned over to Pope John Paul II. But you 578 00:30:20,170 --> 00:30:23,160 S1: talk about the fact that we think that it kind 579 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,640 S1: of showed up for the first time in France in 580 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,239 S1: the mid-14th century, but there's compelling evidence. You write that 581 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,640 S1: it was probably in the hands of the Eastern Orthodox 582 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,640 S1: Church earlier than that. So it does raise the question 583 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,280 S1: of provenance. Now, we know the Bible says they went 584 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,000 S1: into the tomb and it says the face cloth was 585 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,600 S1: neatly folded. So it raises the question of provenance. Who 586 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,440 S1: took it? Why would they have taken it? What happened 587 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,520 S1: to it? And it's centuries earlier. If we do the 588 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,600 S1: Eastern Orthodox date, it's centuries either way before it shows 589 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,720 S1: up somewhere. So where's the prominence in those hundreds and 590 00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:58,640 S1: hundreds of years? 591 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,920 S5: Thank you for asking me good questions that make me think. 592 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,120 S5: And I don't have to go on autopilot on your show. 593 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,239 S5: Thank you so much for that. We have two. We 594 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,160 S5: actually have three terms for burial. In the four Gospels 595 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,400 S5: we have Sudarium. That's the face cloth that's mentioned in 596 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,280 S5: John 25 through seven. We have in Matthew, Mark, Luke, 597 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,959 S5: the synoptic gospels. We have the Greek term sindon. That 598 00:31:21,070 --> 00:31:24,870 S5: would be the large cloth that wrapped Jesus's body. And then, 599 00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:27,510 S5: thanks to John's gospel, we have a third word, aphonia. 600 00:31:27,550 --> 00:31:31,750 S5: These are strips of linen that would cover the already 601 00:31:31,750 --> 00:31:34,750 S5: covered body of Jesus with the fine linen cloth. And 602 00:31:34,750 --> 00:31:37,670 S5: so we have three different terms used for burial. Joseph 603 00:31:37,670 --> 00:31:42,270 S5: of Arimathea not only volunteers his family tomb, but gives 604 00:31:42,270 --> 00:31:47,510 S5: Jesus his very nice, finely woven burial shroud. And Janet, 605 00:31:47,510 --> 00:31:51,070 S5: we have hundreds of burial shrouds from the land of Israel. Remember, 606 00:31:51,070 --> 00:31:54,670 S5: Jews did not embalm their dead. They did not mummify people. 607 00:31:54,670 --> 00:31:57,310 S5: So in people's minds, eyes don't think that a Jew 608 00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:59,950 S5: would ever be mummified or embalmed. No, you buried your 609 00:31:59,950 --> 00:32:02,630 S5: loved one on the day of their death period. And 610 00:32:02,630 --> 00:32:06,390 S5: that's why these two are hurrying Nicodemus and Arimathea to 611 00:32:06,430 --> 00:32:10,470 S5: bury Jesus. And so likely Arimathea and his family keep 612 00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:13,870 S5: the garment. Remember when you read it chronologically. And again, 613 00:32:13,870 --> 00:32:15,350 S5: this is the power of the Bible. You can read 614 00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:17,710 S5: it a hundred times and see something new every time. 615 00:32:17,990 --> 00:32:22,700 S5: It wasn't until John and I love that 11 times 616 00:32:22,700 --> 00:32:26,540 S5: in in just John 20 alone, we're told people see 617 00:32:26,580 --> 00:32:29,660 S5: things that caused them to believe. So again, this is 618 00:32:29,660 --> 00:32:34,220 S5: the power of evidence and actually having evidence that fuses 619 00:32:34,220 --> 00:32:38,860 S5: with our faith. John saw the Aphonia. He saw the Sudarium. 620 00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:41,540 S5: Now this is totally speculative, but I said this at 621 00:32:41,540 --> 00:32:44,580 S5: a conference with an archaeologist and Bible scholar Sunday night. 622 00:32:45,780 --> 00:32:49,060 S5: I believe that Jesus face was still glowing in the cloth. 623 00:32:49,060 --> 00:32:51,740 S5: I believe there was a residue of signature of resurrection 624 00:32:51,740 --> 00:32:54,700 S5: on it, because something caused them to see these cloths 625 00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:57,300 S5: and believe. And so long story short, it shows up 626 00:32:57,300 --> 00:33:00,220 S5: in Eusebius, who's our great church historian. We know it's 627 00:33:00,220 --> 00:33:03,220 S5: in Edessa in the sixth century. We know that it's 628 00:33:03,220 --> 00:33:07,500 S5: in Constantinople. And then thanks to Max Frye, a criminologist, 629 00:33:07,540 --> 00:33:10,500 S5: we actually have pollen that traces all the places we 630 00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:12,580 S5: know from church history where the shroud has been. It's 631 00:33:12,580 --> 00:33:15,260 S5: just been known by different names. It wasn't known as 632 00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:18,380 S5: the Shroud of Turin until it went to Turin, Italy, 633 00:33:18,610 --> 00:33:20,050 S5: in 1578. 634 00:33:20,250 --> 00:33:24,810 S1: Yeah, well, and I've watched your lectures and they're absolutely fascinating. 635 00:33:24,810 --> 00:33:27,290 S1: And you talk about the blood and the reverse image 636 00:33:27,290 --> 00:33:31,050 S1: and the whip marks on the back, and the fact 637 00:33:31,050 --> 00:33:33,610 S1: that there is the blood type, even a very rare 638 00:33:33,610 --> 00:33:35,530 S1: blood type, in fact. Talk about that. It's a B. 639 00:33:35,530 --> 00:33:36,810 S1: And why is that significant? 640 00:33:37,330 --> 00:33:43,050 S5: 33 scientists go to Italy, Janet, in 1978. They're having 641 00:33:43,090 --> 00:33:47,210 S5: alcoholic beverages in the lobby of the hotel because they're 642 00:33:47,210 --> 00:33:50,130 S5: all joking about what a hoax the shroud is. And 643 00:33:50,130 --> 00:33:53,010 S5: one of them famously said, give me 15 minutes and 644 00:33:53,010 --> 00:33:55,730 S5: the scientific method, and I will prove the shroud is 645 00:33:55,730 --> 00:33:59,450 S5: a fraud. Well, as soon as they began their scientific testing, 646 00:33:59,450 --> 00:34:03,050 S5: nobody was laughing. They were so fascinated they got cots 647 00:34:03,050 --> 00:34:07,530 S5: out and slept next to the shroud. Hematologist Helen and Adler. 648 00:34:07,570 --> 00:34:11,210 S5: Heller and Adler were there. The blood type is human blood. 649 00:34:11,370 --> 00:34:15,969 S5: Its type a, B blood, which is a Semitic blood. 650 00:34:16,250 --> 00:34:19,490 S5: And it's blood that stays red. Because it turns out 651 00:34:19,489 --> 00:34:23,009 S5: I didn't know this. When our bodies are traumatized, when 652 00:34:23,010 --> 00:34:27,370 S5: they experience physical torment. The red blood cells break down 653 00:34:27,370 --> 00:34:30,770 S5: and produce extra bilirubin that secretes, which causes the blood 654 00:34:30,770 --> 00:34:33,490 S5: to stay red all these years later on the shroud. 655 00:34:33,810 --> 00:34:36,850 S5: And so it's human blood. It's type AB blood and 656 00:34:36,850 --> 00:34:39,969 S5: it's blood that according to a recent hematological study. And 657 00:34:39,969 --> 00:34:42,530 S5: I point all this out in my book, Jesus Discoveries, 658 00:34:42,690 --> 00:34:45,290 S5: it has high levels of ferritin. That means Jesus was 659 00:34:45,290 --> 00:34:50,370 S5: experiencing not only dehydration, but organ failure. And it's fascinating. 660 00:34:50,370 --> 00:34:53,650 S5: And that is what caused one of those 33 scientific members, 661 00:34:53,650 --> 00:34:57,770 S5: Barry Schwartz, who's now in. He's dead. I hope he's 662 00:34:57,770 --> 00:35:01,690 S5: in heaven. He was a Jew who was skeptical. 17 663 00:35:01,690 --> 00:35:04,890 S5: years after studying the shroud, when all of the blood 664 00:35:04,930 --> 00:35:08,290 S5: types came out. That is what convinced him it was 665 00:35:08,290 --> 00:35:11,450 S5: Jesus's burial cloth. And I can only hope that he 666 00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:13,730 S5: placed his trust in Christ and that he's in heaven 667 00:35:13,730 --> 00:35:16,520 S5: now because of it. But Barry published an article for 668 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,320 S5: me on five things Evangelical Christians Get wrong about the shroud, 669 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,480 S5: but it was the blood type that caused him to 670 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,359 S5: be convinced. And by the way, he's the guy who 671 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,359 S5: literally gave the Ted talk on the shroud. So he 672 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,120 S5: was convinced on it based on the blood type. 673 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,839 S1: Yeah. You write about that in the book, which is 674 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,600 S1: absolutely fascinating. So, so many questions on this. So I 675 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,799 S1: love the way that all of the science and by 676 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,160 S1: the way, it was at one point disproved. And now 677 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,680 S1: modern science, because of our techniques has now said, well, 678 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,719 S1: there's a lot of fear that makes us think that 679 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:49,160 S1: maybe this is substantiated. The Romans perfected the art of crucifixion. Yes. 680 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,239 S1: So I do not. First of all, I remember when 681 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,840 S1: a doctor, Basil Jackson, was traveling the world with the shroud. 682 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,920 S1: So this conversation has been going on for a long 683 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,680 S1: period of time. And I have to tell you that 684 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,239 S1: I know the shroud exists. I believe that you could 685 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,560 S1: carbon date the linen. I think there's no question that 686 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,799 S1: there's blood that's appropriate. Um, I think that the fact 687 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,560 S1: that we see crucifixion marks as you write the they 688 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,160 S1: have this art down where the nails wouldn't have gone 689 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:14,759 S1: just in the palm. They would have gone through the 690 00:36:14,830 --> 00:36:16,310 S1: wrist and the hand. That would be the only way 691 00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:19,029 S1: you could substantiate the weight that would hang down on 692 00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:22,109 S1: the cross. All of that, I think, is undeniable. The 693 00:36:22,110 --> 00:36:24,350 S1: question I have two questions on this, Jeremiah, and that 694 00:36:24,350 --> 00:36:27,029 S1: is number one. So there were people who were being 695 00:36:27,030 --> 00:36:30,910 S1: crucified during that time period. How can we know definitively 696 00:36:30,910 --> 00:36:34,630 S1: that this was the Christ as opposed to one of 697 00:36:34,670 --> 00:36:38,350 S1: millions that the Romans were crucifying? And number two, you 698 00:36:38,350 --> 00:36:40,790 S1: have the shroud that says, this is the man in 699 00:36:40,790 --> 00:36:43,189 S1: the shroud, if you believe that. How does the man 700 00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:46,629 S1: in the shroud give evidence to an empty tomb? You 701 00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:49,070 S1: have proof that he's died? If you believe the shroud. 702 00:36:49,630 --> 00:36:52,509 S1: Do we need proof? Do we need that? Thomas? Extra 703 00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:55,669 S1: super evidence of the resurrection. Let me get your thoughts 704 00:36:55,670 --> 00:36:57,990 S1: on that when we get back. More with Jeremiah Johnson 705 00:36:57,989 --> 00:37:12,390 S1: after this. We're visiting with Jeremiah Johnston, who is a 706 00:37:12,390 --> 00:37:16,140 S1: wonderful Christian apologist. He's the president of Christian Thinkers Society. 707 00:37:16,420 --> 00:37:19,180 S1: He's written some excellent books, and his latest doesn't disappoint. 708 00:37:19,219 --> 00:37:22,620 S1: It's called The Jesus Discoveries ten Historic Finds That Bring 709 00:37:22,620 --> 00:37:24,540 S1: Us Face to Face with Jesus. Can I make just 710 00:37:24,540 --> 00:37:26,740 S1: a suggestion? Because you know I care for you, and 711 00:37:26,739 --> 00:37:28,779 S1: I want us to go out and just occupy that 712 00:37:28,780 --> 00:37:31,300 S1: marketplace of ideas. This is a great book for your, 713 00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:35,860 S1: your skeptical relative, your seeking friend, your wounded friend who said, 714 00:37:35,860 --> 00:37:37,420 S1: I don't want anything to do with the church. I 715 00:37:37,420 --> 00:37:40,180 S1: can't believe it. Anyway, it's just a concoction written by 716 00:37:40,219 --> 00:37:43,380 S1: oral tradition with a bunch of ignorant Bedouin shepherds. Read 717 00:37:43,380 --> 00:37:46,620 S1: this and get them to start thinking right this. That's 718 00:37:46,620 --> 00:37:48,940 S1: the beginning of this journey of seeking him. You know, 719 00:37:48,980 --> 00:37:51,660 S1: we think we find God. He's been pursuing us all along. 720 00:37:51,660 --> 00:37:54,100 S1: And this kind of archaeological information is part of his 721 00:37:54,100 --> 00:37:57,140 S1: pursuing us. I consider it just a great blessing. So 722 00:37:57,140 --> 00:38:00,700 S1: going back to the Shroud of Turin again, absolutely fascinating conversation. 723 00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:03,940 S1: So we know that this was perfected by the Romans. 724 00:38:03,940 --> 00:38:05,820 S1: We know that there were multiple people. There were no 725 00:38:05,820 --> 00:38:08,700 S1: more than one Jew that was crucified. What do you 726 00:38:08,700 --> 00:38:13,770 S1: think it is? Singularity singularly about this particular burial cloths 727 00:38:13,850 --> 00:38:17,410 S1: plural that would say excitement. The blood type. You could 728 00:38:17,410 --> 00:38:19,290 S1: say there was others that might have had a B, 729 00:38:19,330 --> 00:38:21,489 S1: but what is it about the unique. If you looked 730 00:38:21,489 --> 00:38:23,330 S1: at all of the stuff, others could have been crucified, 731 00:38:23,330 --> 00:38:26,210 S1: others could have been scourged, others could have had the 732 00:38:26,210 --> 00:38:28,969 S1: piercings in their wrists and their hands. Is there a 733 00:38:28,969 --> 00:38:31,370 S1: singular aspect of the shroud where you go, whoa, that 734 00:38:31,370 --> 00:38:32,370 S1: wouldn't have been common. 735 00:38:32,690 --> 00:38:34,970 S5: Absolutely. And I can already tell I'm making a shroud 736 00:38:35,090 --> 00:38:37,690 S5: out of you, Janet. That's the term for it. And 737 00:38:37,730 --> 00:38:40,690 S5: by the way, my book does have pictures in it. 738 00:38:40,690 --> 00:38:43,370 S5: I pay it off every archaeologist around the world to 739 00:38:43,370 --> 00:38:46,730 S5: get permissions to have these photos. And I'm delighted that 740 00:38:46,730 --> 00:38:49,210 S5: my nine year old boys were reading it. So it's 741 00:38:49,210 --> 00:38:52,530 S5: not written for scholars. It's crisp. It's like, hey, here's these, 742 00:38:52,570 --> 00:38:55,650 S5: here's these discoveries, and here's how Jesus applies to your 743 00:38:55,650 --> 00:38:59,210 S5: life and all of them. My area of expertise, you know, PhDs, 744 00:38:59,210 --> 00:39:01,330 S5: we know a lot about a little. And the little 745 00:39:01,330 --> 00:39:03,690 S5: that I know a lot about is crucifixion and the 746 00:39:03,690 --> 00:39:06,410 S5: Roman Empire. We have 21 different victims that we have 747 00:39:06,410 --> 00:39:09,290 S5: recovered that were nailed to the cross. Most of them 748 00:39:09,290 --> 00:39:15,049 S5: have broken bones, broken shin bones, broken femurs, um, broken fibulas. Um, 749 00:39:15,050 --> 00:39:17,969 S5: it's it's fascinating that the man who's crucified in the 750 00:39:17,969 --> 00:39:21,570 S5: shroud has no broken bones. He has a separated septum, 751 00:39:21,570 --> 00:39:24,850 S5: which is a broken nose, but that's not actual bone. 752 00:39:25,130 --> 00:39:28,210 S5: What's fascinating also about the man in the shroud is 753 00:39:28,250 --> 00:39:31,050 S5: there is a side wound through rib five and six 754 00:39:31,050 --> 00:39:34,649 S5: that has blood that is postmortem blood. The serum is 755 00:39:34,650 --> 00:39:38,810 S5: already separated from the blood itself, meaning that this blood 756 00:39:38,810 --> 00:39:43,850 S5: was after he had already died, which is fascinating. Then 757 00:39:43,890 --> 00:39:46,170 S5: what puts it beyond all doubt for me is we 758 00:39:46,170 --> 00:39:50,290 S5: have only one record of a crucifixion victim wearing a 759 00:39:50,330 --> 00:39:54,170 S5: helmet of thorns. And on the shroud victim there are 760 00:39:54,170 --> 00:39:58,969 S5: 30 to 50 puncture marks of a helmet. Not a sweatband, 761 00:39:58,969 --> 00:40:02,689 S5: not a wreath, a helmet of thorns. And I have 762 00:40:02,690 --> 00:40:05,930 S5: a replica of this that is so amazing. When I 763 00:40:05,930 --> 00:40:10,120 S5: have the opportunity to preach these Bethlehem thorns, Janet. They 764 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,160 S5: would grow to 3 to 4in long when they dry. 765 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,239 S5: They're as sharp as nails, and that is what is 766 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,560 S5: placed on our Savior's head. So without a doubt, what 767 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,080 S5: puts it beyond all doubt to me that it is 768 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,400 S5: Jesus of Nazareth. As first we have to establish that 769 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,520 S5: the shroud is 2000 years old, and we do that. 770 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,200 S5: But then why do we know it's Jesus? Well, it's 771 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,479 S5: because no one was crucified in the demonic way that 772 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,480 S5: he was. Six out of ten victims never even passed. 773 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,960 S5: The whipping, the grim, the flogging. We read John 19 774 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,040 S5: one and Pilate had Jesus flogged and just kind of 775 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,880 S5: skipped right by that. We don't realize Jesus likely endured 776 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,319 S5: 700 lashes and lost one third of his blood volume. 777 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,279 S5: It was a miracle he could even make it to 778 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,600 S5: the cross. He carries what's called the crossbeam, the Patibulum. 779 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,240 S5: I love The Passion of the Christ movie by Mel Gibson. 780 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,000 S5: The one thing he got wrong was Jesus did not 781 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,560 S5: carry the cross. He only carries the crossbeam. No one 782 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,000 S5: could have carried. The whole cross would have been £500. 783 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,960 S5: It's amazing. We actually have matching abrasions on the top 784 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,989 S5: right shoulder and the left lower shoulder where Jesus carries 785 00:41:11,989 --> 00:41:15,430 S5: the cross. And then we have a travertine signature on 786 00:41:15,430 --> 00:41:18,150 S5: the shroud. We have pollen on the shroud. We have 787 00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:22,629 S5: we have limestone in the tip of the nose, the 788 00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:25,150 S5: knees and the feet that only comes from the grottoes 789 00:41:25,150 --> 00:41:27,469 S5: of Jerusalem, where I've been. And then we have 38 790 00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:30,469 S5: of the 58 pollen spores. We have a lot of 791 00:41:30,469 --> 00:41:32,469 S5: pollen here in Texas where I lived, where God has 792 00:41:32,469 --> 00:41:35,670 S5: a second home, by the way, and we're all allergic 793 00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:38,790 S5: to these pollens. And yet 38 of the 58 pollens, 794 00:41:38,790 --> 00:41:43,710 S5: according to criminologist Max Frye, only bloom in Jerusalem in springtime. 795 00:41:43,710 --> 00:41:46,629 S5: And so there is a preponderance of evidence. And so 796 00:41:46,670 --> 00:41:48,270 S5: I want to make one thing clear, because you asked 797 00:41:48,270 --> 00:41:52,029 S5: a phenomenal question before the break. The shroud is the 798 00:41:52,030 --> 00:41:57,390 S5: moment of Jesus's resurrection from the dead. The blood absorbs 799 00:41:57,390 --> 00:42:01,110 S5: all the way through. His body is wrapped quickly by 800 00:42:01,150 --> 00:42:05,270 S5: Arimathea and Nicodemus. The women on Sunday morning are hurrying 801 00:42:05,310 --> 00:42:08,820 S5: to the tomb because they're going to continue the burial process, 802 00:42:08,820 --> 00:42:11,779 S5: which would they would sit Shiva for seven days. They 803 00:42:11,780 --> 00:42:15,379 S5: would keep spicing the body because they would keep grieving 804 00:42:15,380 --> 00:42:18,620 S5: for seven days. The women are amazed because when they 805 00:42:18,620 --> 00:42:23,140 S5: get there, Janet, the stone that weighed £2,750 has been 806 00:42:23,140 --> 00:42:27,740 S5: moved away. The tomb is empty and yet the shroud remains. Now, 807 00:42:27,739 --> 00:42:29,779 S5: this is brand new research I've not shared on any 808 00:42:29,780 --> 00:42:35,219 S5: other show, but we actually have ancient documents that talk 809 00:42:35,260 --> 00:42:39,180 S5: about the fact that tomb robbers would often rob tombs, 810 00:42:39,340 --> 00:42:45,339 S5: leave the decaying corpses behind, but steal the expensive shrouds 811 00:42:45,340 --> 00:42:48,540 S5: to go sell. What do we have? It's in reverse 812 00:42:48,540 --> 00:42:52,180 S5: in the Gospels. There's no body in there. Jesus has 813 00:42:52,180 --> 00:42:56,380 S5: been resurrected, but this fine linen garment has been left behind. 814 00:42:56,380 --> 00:42:58,980 S5: And that's where that's where Mary comes along and says, 815 00:42:58,980 --> 00:43:00,860 S5: I have seen the Lord. John 20. 816 00:43:01,140 --> 00:43:04,259 S1: Wow. So you answered my question, and I'm going to 817 00:43:04,260 --> 00:43:06,580 S1: play the role of the skeptic because Abe Lincoln says, hey, 818 00:43:06,620 --> 00:43:09,259 S1: you spend 20% of your time preparing your case, 80% 819 00:43:09,260 --> 00:43:11,620 S1: of your time preparing your opponent's case. So I'll argue 820 00:43:11,620 --> 00:43:13,980 S1: for the opposition on this. Okay, great. You have a 821 00:43:13,980 --> 00:43:16,259 S1: dead man. I don't know that this proves you have 822 00:43:16,260 --> 00:43:18,820 S1: a risen savior. And what you're saying is that based 823 00:43:18,820 --> 00:43:21,900 S1: on some of the things the shroud seemed to indicate, 824 00:43:21,900 --> 00:43:24,660 S1: that could have only happened in a resurrection. So let 825 00:43:24,660 --> 00:43:27,180 S1: me just ask one other question. And that is, um, 826 00:43:27,260 --> 00:43:30,660 S1: I struggle again in this area because I love the 827 00:43:30,660 --> 00:43:33,100 S1: reminder to us that blessed are those who believe and 828 00:43:33,100 --> 00:43:35,979 S1: have not seen. I want to make sure that I 829 00:43:35,980 --> 00:43:38,379 S1: don't come to faith because of a relic. I want 830 00:43:38,420 --> 00:43:41,100 S1: to come to faith because of the power of His Word. I, 831 00:43:41,460 --> 00:43:44,460 S1: for example, do not believe we will ever find the 832 00:43:44,460 --> 00:43:46,379 S1: contents of the Ark of the covenant. You know this 833 00:43:46,380 --> 00:43:48,860 S1: going to Israel. You can't you can't dig under the 834 00:43:48,860 --> 00:43:51,140 S1: Temple Mount because they're afraid the ark might be buried there. 835 00:43:51,140 --> 00:43:53,819 S1: And if that happens. Oh, game over. No. Two state solution. 836 00:43:54,020 --> 00:43:56,580 S1: So there are parts of me that think God doesn't 837 00:43:56,580 --> 00:43:58,259 S1: want me to look at a relic. He wants me 838 00:43:58,260 --> 00:44:01,580 S1: to look at him. So I do not deny all 839 00:44:01,620 --> 00:44:04,739 S1: the historicity that wraps itself around this amazing piece of 840 00:44:04,850 --> 00:44:08,209 S1: cloth that may just may be an indicator that this 841 00:44:08,210 --> 00:44:11,890 S1: was Jesus's burial cloth. But more importantly, I want people 842 00:44:11,890 --> 00:44:15,370 S1: to know Jesus, the resurrected Savior. And there we have 843 00:44:15,370 --> 00:44:17,290 S1: to somehow get people to fall deeply in love with 844 00:44:17,290 --> 00:44:21,770 S1: His word because that doesn't need archaeology, archaeological substantiation. I've 845 00:44:21,770 --> 00:44:24,170 S1: already told it doesn't return void. I could talk to 846 00:44:24,170 --> 00:44:26,569 S1: you for ten more hours about this. Jeremiah, thank you 847 00:44:26,570 --> 00:44:29,290 S1: so much. And again, we've skated across the top of 848 00:44:29,290 --> 00:44:32,730 S1: his book again. I want to underscore Jeremiah said, this 849 00:44:32,730 --> 00:44:34,930 S1: isn't written for scholars. It's written for every single one 850 00:44:34,930 --> 00:44:37,330 S1: of us so we can understand it. More importantly, it's 851 00:44:37,330 --> 00:44:39,410 S1: written so you can give it to a friend who's 852 00:44:39,410 --> 00:44:43,009 S1: very much skeptical about this Jesus of Nazareth and whether 853 00:44:43,010 --> 00:44:46,969 S1: or not he physically died and rose. And that tomb 854 00:44:46,969 --> 00:44:49,810 S1: in Jerusalem does, in fact remain empty to this day. 855 00:44:49,810 --> 00:44:52,410 S1: That's the big headline, Jeremiah. Thank you. Thank you friends. 856 00:44:52,410 --> 00:44:54,169 S1: We'll see you next time on In the Market with 857 00:44:54,170 --> 00:44:55,050 S1: Janet Parshall.