S1: Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
S1: and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
S1: and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
S1: But before you go, I want to tell you about
S1: this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
S1: And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
S1: going out into the night sky and looking up and
S1: seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
S1: about God? And are you not in a moment of
S1: awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
S1: of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
S1: that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
S1: wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
S1: of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
S1: book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
S1: from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
S1: a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
S1: this sense of awe through the work that they do.
S1: In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
S1: it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
S1: because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
S1: to walk through the chapters written by people who all
S1: have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
S1: to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
S1: amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
S1: just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
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S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4: The Americans worshiping government over God.
S3: Extremely rare safety move by a mage 17 years.
S5: The Palestinians and the Israelis negotiated.
S6: The idea is not bad.
S1: Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
S1: How often do you hear me say on this program
S1: that what we aim to do clear transparency. Our agenda
S1: is to help you to think critically and biblically. And
S1: for the record, those are not mutually exclusive postures, by
S1: the way. It's not an either or. It is a both.
S1: And how do I know that? Because the Bible tells
S1: me so. My heart is transformed, my mind is renewed.
S1: But here's what I also know. My job is to gently, lovingly,
S1: consistently push you out into the marketplace of ideas. Because
S1: that is exactly where Jesus told us to go. And
S1: it's a mess out there. And here's what I know
S1: in Your Pilgrim's Progress, as you must necessarily pass through
S1: Vanity Fair if you don't have, as John Bunyan called it,
S1: the map, which is the Word of God, you're going
S1: to get lost. And here's all the data that we
S1: know right now. We are growing more and more biblically illiterate.
S1: I expect the world to act like the world. The
S1: world is doing exactly what the world does without Jesus.
S1: But it is the church where I'm far more concerned,
S1: where we are now getting a very diluted idea of
S1: what the scriptures say. We approach it like it's one
S1: of those buffet restaurants, you know, with the ones with
S1: the glass, and you just walk around and you take
S1: all the desserts you want, you take all the carbs
S1: you want, you skip the vegetables because after all, nobody
S1: likes those. And when you're done, you have a pile
S1: full of calories and not much nutrition. That's the approach
S1: a whole lot of people are taking to the Word
S1: of God right now. They pick and choose. I don't
S1: like this part. It's uncomfortable. I don't understand it. I'm
S1: not sure it's really applying to our world today. By
S1: the way. Maybe there is some legitimacy after all. I
S1: read it in a checkout line at the grocery store
S1: that it was only an oral tradition handed down by
S1: ignorant Bedouins. And by the way, the only eyewitnesses were
S1: 500 years after the fact that it was written. And
S1: guess what? The next thing you know, book of Colossians. Boom!
S1: You've been taken captive through vain and hollow philosophies. So
S1: with this, our specifically is designed to do is to
S1: help you think critically and biblically about the Bible. I
S1: have been waiting for this book. It sits on my
S1: desk and I've been arm wrestling with my husband as
S1: to on which desk it will finally sit. I think
S1: he won. He gets to add it to his whole
S1: section of systematic theology, but for right now it's mine
S1: and I treasure it. It is a brand new book
S1: called Biblical Theology, a canonical thematic and ethical approach. Come on,
S1: come back in the room. This is not just for academicians.
S1: This is for you and me to understand how to
S1: understand the whole truth of the Bible historically, contextually, systematically.
S1: And that's what we're going to talk about this hour.
S1: It is a marvelous book. Let me just picture it
S1: for you. It's about two inches thick. Now, if you're driving,
S1: don't do this. Just use your sanctified imagination. But just
S1: figure the space between two figures as two inches. What
S1: that means is it's a huge academic undertaking, the kind
S1: of research that only great academicians and great biblical scholars
S1: can do. And that's exactly who we're going to talk
S1: to this hour. One of those wonderful scholars, Doctor Andreas Köstenberger,
S1: is with us. He is the theologian in residence at
S1: Fellowship Raleigh. He's an internationally known Bible scholar, a prolific
S1: author of over 60 books, and co-founder of Biblical Foundations.
S1: By the way, his website, Biblical Foundations, also features an
S1: abundance of resources and a complete list of publications. But he,
S1: along with Gregory Caswell, wrote this book and it was
S1: very much his heart's passion to be able to do it.
S1: So first and foremost, Doctor Köstenberger the warmest of welcomes.
S1: And let me ask you why you decided to take
S1: such a huge undertaking.
S7: Well, Janet, first of all, thanks for that great introduction,
S7: I really appreciate your, uh, just sharing our vision that
S7: that we ought to be whole Bible Christians. You know,
S7: our Bibles contain 66 books. And, uh, so often, as
S7: you mentioned, we we tend to kind of pick and
S7: choose and, and like Paul told the Ephesian elders that
S7: for three years he didn't cease from proclaiming to them
S7: the whole counsel of God. And so, uh, I agree,
S7: it's a daunting task to to write a book about,
S7: you know, the entire Bible. Uh, and that's why it's
S7: so long. It had to be, uh, but our vision
S7: is to to serve as a resource and to serve
S7: as an aid for, for people in our churches to
S7: become whole Bible Christians.
S1: Um, what a beautiful description. And may that be our
S1: goal to be just that whole Christians understanding the whole
S1: counsel of God so we can apply the whole truth
S1: of the whole gospel to the whole world. There's a
S1: synergy here that cannot be missed. So a couple of
S1: questions right out of the gate. I very much appreciated
S1: your opening chapter because you understood and stated quite transparently
S1: the daunting nature of what this is like. So if
S1: we're going to look at this, let me just give
S1: a I'm going to do a flyover for my friends
S1: that this becomes more attractive for them as a resource
S1: that must be in their own library. So when I
S1: looked at this first and it again, it's a study
S1: of the 66 books of the Bible, how do you
S1: picture the average user using this particular book as a concordance,
S1: as a side by side with the Bible, as a
S1: insightful viewing of a passage? Explain the way in which
S1: you laid this out, because you did it with a
S1: methodology so that it would become user friendly. Explain that
S1: if you would, please.
S7: Yeah, that's right. I think there could be multiple ways
S7: people could use it. There might be some who patiently
S7: and slowly read through the whole book cover to cover,
S7: but I think probably more will look at it as
S7: a resource. We have a very detailed table of contents
S7: and we have very thorough indices. And so I think
S7: anyone who say a pastor who preaches a sermon series on, say,
S7: the book of Hosea might just find the, you know,
S7: the 10 or 12 pages in the book that lay
S7: out the major themes in Hosea, the ethical teachings in
S7: that book, and how Hosea fits within the storyline of Scripture.
S7: And it would be, I think, a very good foundation
S7: for them to make sure that they do justice to
S7: that book. So in many cases, people will simply or
S7: serious Bible students or people in the churches, uh, you know,
S7: would simply go to that section in the book that
S7: deals with the book that, that they're currently studying or
S7: they're about to study.
S1: You right in the beginning. And if I may borrow
S1: your words, how do you wrap your brain around a
S1: library of 66 books written over hundreds of years by
S1: dozens of authors. What is the story the Bible sets
S1: out to tell? How do you know that your readings
S1: of Scripture is in keeping with its actual God intended message?
S1: What's more, as an inspired book, the Bible does not
S1: merely aim to impact the knowledge of God and His ways.
S1: It also seeks to draw us into a deep personal
S1: engagement with God and others. So this isn't just a
S1: book you'd have to buy for your first semester class
S1: in college, if you were doing a survey of the
S1: Old Testament. This is designed for you and me to
S1: do a deep dive to better understand this inerrant, transcendent, immutable,
S1: inspired map for Our Pilgrim's Progress. We've got so much
S1: to talk about. And I'm absolutely thrilled and honestly quite
S1: honored that Doctor Andreas Köstenberger would give us one hour
S1: of his time. It's a wonderful book. And by the
S1: time this hour is through, I hope you don't walk,
S1: but you run to get your copy back after this.
S1: Have you ever wondered why music moves us so deeply?
S1: Or why beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool
S1: this month is a thought provoking book that explores those
S1: moments of wonder we all encounter. It's called Have You
S1: ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to
S1: the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have
S1: you ever wondered when you give a gift of any
S1: amount to in the market, call eight 7758, that's eight
S1: 7758 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S1: We are visiting with internationally known Bible scholar and prolific author,
S1: Doctor Andreas Köstenberger, and we are discussing a brand new,
S1: and I would venture to say, a much beloved, treasured resource.
S1: That's what it is going to become. It certainly is
S1: in our house already. It's called biblical theology, a canonical
S1: thematic and ethical approach. And we will break down those
S1: three sections for you. But you start out early in
S1: the book, Doctor Köstenberger, and I'm so glad you did
S1: in defining the words biblical theology. For some people, they
S1: might think that that's redundant. After all, isn't the Bible
S1: Christian theology? So if you break that down for us,
S1: how do you define it?
S7: Yes, that's right. It's more than just theology that is biblical.
S7: It is actually the theology of the biblical writers themselves.
S7: And so, you know, sometimes what we do as Christians
S7: is we already have our own convictions and we we sometimes,
S7: you know, tend to read them into Scripture. But but ideally,
S7: we would listen to the text itself and we would
S7: draw out what the biblical authors themselves believed. We would
S7: try to listen to what the authors themselves believed and
S7: intended to communicate to their original readers and also to us.
S7: And so in that sense, biblical theology is really the
S7: proper place to start for us, because we want to
S7: know what the Bible says to us. We want the
S7: Bible to engage us and to inform us, even to
S7: change and transform us, rather to simply engage in this
S7: kind of circular reasoning where we find what we're looking for.
S1: Beautifully answered. In other words, this is what sets it
S1: apart from war and peace. All right. There's this is again,
S1: a living book designed to change us, not tell us
S1: a good story, although the Bible certainly has many of those.
S1: But it is designed to change us. Let me go
S1: back to something you said, and forgive me if some
S1: of the questions seem pretty rudimentary, but I think going
S1: back and reestablishing a firm foundation is paramount, particularly when
S1: one is going to do a deep dive. So you
S1: said the theology of the writers themselves. I believe that 100%.
S1: But I know there are people listening, some all across
S1: the country, who might say, but wait a minute. The
S1: individuality of the author here is secondary to the inspiration
S1: of the Holy Spirit. So how can it be the
S1: theology of the writers themselves? Weren't they simply scribes? If
S1: you can put it that way, for the Holy Spirit?
S7: Well, it's not an either or, Janet, as you know.
S7: It's it's a both and and of course. Yeah. In
S7: the end we have a high view of Scripture. We
S7: believe that Scripture is inspired and inerrant, but at the
S7: same time, God used the individual personalities and interests and
S7: and style of of of the individual authors. You know,
S7: when you look at the 12 apostles, for example, in
S7: in the Gospels, uh, you just see how Jesus, uh,
S7: you know, picked people who are very different from each other.
S7: And so, uh, you see that reflected in the way
S7: they wrote, and you have to look no further than
S7: the Gospels. And when you look at Matthew, Mark, Luke,
S7: and John, especially John, you know, they each, uh, tell
S7: the same story, uh, about, uh, Jesus in history, uh,
S7: you know, coming to earth and, and, and engaging in
S7: the three year ministry and then, uh, dying and then
S7: being buried and rising from the dead. But, uh, they
S7: don't tell it all exactly the same way. And so
S7: that's a great example, I think, of what biblical theology
S7: Theologies can do. It can help us discover the distinctive
S7: interests and ways to the different biblical writers communicated eternal truth.
S1: Let me linger, because I think your example of the
S1: Gospels is readily understood. So the doctor Luke, would observe things,
S1: for example, that John would not. Now, that doesn't set
S1: up a paradigm for conflict. It's perspective. But it all
S1: leads to the same conclusion. Is that an oversimplification or
S1: is that correct?
S7: Yeah, no, that's a great example. And so for instance,
S7: you find that Luke is very interested in in socioeconomic matters.
S7: He talks about poverty a great deal. He emphasizes emphasizes
S7: those who are marginalized in society, such as widows. And John,
S7: on the other hand, has very little interest in economics.
S7: He focuses more on our eternal destiny and the importance
S7: of believing in Jesus for eternal life. And so, uh,
S7: you know, of course, both are part of a gospel message. Uh,
S7: but if we just read Luke or John, I think
S7: we would, uh, miss, uh, kind of important, uh, entailment
S7: of Jesus coming. But that is why it is so
S7: important for us to study all four gospels and by extension,
S7: to study all 66 books of Scripture. Because every book
S7: has a reason for being in the canon, we believe
S7: God chose those books for us to have in our scriptures,
S7: and so we need to do justice to the entire
S7: library of books that we have.
S1: Yes. Excellent. You say in the book that and I'm
S1: particularly intrigued by this, that in North American conservative evangelicalism
S1: and you write, there's a new type of biblical theology
S1: that's begun to flourish based on a high view of
S1: Scripture and grounded in both historical research and literary study. Now,
S1: that excites me. Why do you think this this reinvigoration
S1: is taking place right now?
S7: Well, I think there's a tremendous emphasis on story and
S7: to some extent that comes from postmodernism, but I think
S7: it works very well because the Bible is the metanarrative,
S7: the mother of meta narratives. I think it is the
S7: story that explains all other stories. And so that is
S7: why in our book, we place a great deal of
S7: emphasis on the overall storyline of the Bible. You know,
S7: I think it's so easy sometimes for us to get
S7: hung up and, and, you know, in some of the
S7: details of Scripture and I think biblical theology, what's so
S7: beautiful about it is that it focuses on synthesis. It
S7: focuses on connections between the different books and different parts
S7: of Scripture the Old Testament, the New Testament, you know,
S7: the storyline, the progressive way in which God has revealed
S7: himself to his people in history. And so I think
S7: that's one reason why I think biblical theology resonates very
S7: deeply with our culture today.
S1: Wow. You made me think of something. So let me
S1: just pull over to the side of the road for
S1: a moment. You have a very impressive curriculum vitae. You
S1: are known as an international Bible scholar, as somebody who
S1: has studied and studied and studied and quite literally plumbed
S1: the depths of Scripture at this point. Is it all
S1: old to you? Do you know it all or in
S1: the vibrancy of this word? Are you still discovering new
S1: things in your own personal study?
S7: Oh, absolutely. I almost every day and I immersed in Scripture,
S7: I discover new things every day. I remember, uh, just
S7: yesterday looking at Luke's gospel where, uh, you know, Jesus
S7: is entering Jerusalem at the triumphal entry, and the disciples
S7: are saying, uh, peace in heaven and glory to God
S7: in the highest. And I was thinking, wait a minute,
S7: that sounds just like the birth narrative, where it said,
S7: you know, peace on earth and glory to God in
S7: the highest. So you see those connections. And, you know,
S7: for some reason I never picked it up before. So
S7: you're right. It's an exciting journey of discovery.
S1: Yes, and very much an alive text. When we come back,
S1: I do want to look at those three subtexts canonical,
S1: thematic and ethical, and how that ties in to biblical theology.
S1: Back after this. Doctor Andreas Köstenberger is with us, theologian
S1: in residence at Fellowship Raleigh. He is also, by the way,
S1: the author of over 60 books and the co-founder of
S1: Biblical Foundations. I have a link to his website at
S1: Biblical Foundations, but I'm particularly excited to have this conversation
S1: today with Doctor Köstenberger because he and his co-author, Gregory Carswell,
S1: have created what I think is going to be one
S1: of those irreplaceable resources in your legacy library. It's an
S1: overview of the entire Bible, all 66 books, and it's
S1: entitled Biblical Theology A Canonical Thematic and Ethical Approach. Now,
S1: Doctor Köstenberger, I think some of us understand the canonical part.
S1: I think some of us might understand the thematic part.
S1: It's the ethical part that I think is going to
S1: be interesting to some people. But would you take those
S1: three words in order? I don't want to presume anything.
S1: People are at various levels of study. And by the way,
S1: let me just tell you that this is the kind
S1: of book that could become your semester Bible survey class.
S1: It's that big, that important. And I think that rich.
S1: But those three words, if you break them down for us, please.
S7: Yes. So canon refers to the library of the 66
S7: books of Scripture that the early church chose to include
S7: in our US inspired collection our library of of of
S7: the Bible. And so what we do, uh, as a
S7: canonical approach, is we study, uh, each of those book
S7: by book, uh, starting with Genesis ending in Revelations. So
S7: it could be a great resource just for the canonical, uh, portion. Uh,
S7: and then, uh, for each book, we look at the
S7: major themes and then we synthesize, uh, the. Uh, contributions, uh, for,
S7: for instance, the Five Books of Moses or for the
S7: Gospels and, um. And so that would be, uh, our
S7: canonical approach, uh, thematic uh, refers to, uh, the, uh,
S7: themes that we determine inductively just by repeated reading of
S7: that book. For example, uh, as you look at first
S7: and second Timothy and Titus, the so-called pastoral epistles, uh,
S7: we feature six major themes, uh, God and Christ, who
S7: are called our savior, uh, teaching, especially scripture. Uh, the
S7: church is the household of God, uh, Christian virtues, the
S7: end times, um, and salvation. So we feel in some
S7: cases those are themes that are unique and that are
S7: distinctive of just those particular books. That's their contribution to
S7: the canon as a whole. And then finally, ethical. Ethical
S7: has to do with the moral teachings of Scripture. You know, Janet, Bible,
S7: the Bible is not just written for our information, but
S7: it's written for application. It's not just written to inform believers,
S7: but it's written to tell us how to live. And
S7: so embedded in our book is an entire biblical ethic,
S7: which I believe is a first for biblical theologies.
S1: I do too. And that's why I wanted to linger
S1: for a moment. You used the word postmodernism earlier. Let
S1: me go back to that word. You know, I think
S1: there are people out in the marketplace of ideas who
S1: would say, okay, I understand the canonical aspect. I don't
S1: dispute your thematic aspects, but when you get to the
S1: ethical part, when you get to the transformative nature of Scripture,
S1: therein lies the rub. If I can borrow from the
S1: great Bard, So I don't mind your historicity. I don't
S1: mind your canonical approach. But when you tell me now
S1: what this book has to say about changing me, I
S1: have a problem. So it begs a whole, you and
S1: I could do ten hours on just this ethical aspect,
S1: but let me just dig into a couple here, particularly
S1: for those who think they've stumbled onto this conversation and
S1: may be questioning the legitimacy, the historicity, the validity of
S1: God's Word. So is it safe to say that when
S1: we look at the moral teachings, the ethical changes that
S1: are brought about in each and every human being, if
S1: they apply the word of God, can we say that
S1: there's an expiration date? One of the arguments in postmodernism
S1: is that was meant for a different day and time.
S1: It has no relevancy to the 21st century. Can we
S1: say that about and I'm not talking about the mosaic,
S1: the mosaic law. I'm talking about the general transcendent expected
S1: rules of deportment and honoring a holy God. Does that
S1: have a time date on it?
S7: Uh, not at all. And, uh, Janet, I totally get
S7: your drift here. And I think that's very important to understand.
S7: And in our book we particularly focus on the love
S7: of God, the love of God for us, uh, people
S7: as as sinners and and redemption. He provides in Christ.
S7: And and as we read in Scripture, God is love
S7: and and and we love because God first loved us.
S7: So at the heart of the biblical narrative, we believe
S7: is a loving God who wants us to reciprocate that
S7: love by loving him. Uh, like Jesus said, the first
S7: and greatest commandment, and then to love others the way
S7: Jesus loved us. So that would be probably the most
S7: important example I could give you in the short time
S7: we have, you know, for how, uh, the biblical message
S7: is transcendent and not merely subjective.
S1: Um, beautifully stated. Does the word of God, uh, again,
S1: some rudimentary questions here. If it is about the love
S1: of God and most assuredly is God is the only
S1: one of whom it is said, is love. so that
S1: in and of itself should stop us in our tracks.
S1: But is the book designed to reveal the characteristics of
S1: God so that we might know him better or. Again,
S1: I asked for the seeker. Is that experiential? We don't.
S1: We only know him by experiencing him. We can't know
S1: him through his revealed word.
S7: Yeah. Of course. Um, all of Scripture is, is, uh,
S7: presupposing the existence of God and the fact that he's
S7: the creator, he's the sovereign ruler of the universe. And so, uh,
S7: you know, that increasingly, uh, that is what, uh, our
S7: culture is denying. And so, uh, you know, that is
S7: where we need to to dialogue. We need to, uh,
S7: explain to people that that there is, in fact, a,
S7: a God who created the universe and who who has
S7: a design, a design for, for male and female. And
S7: he also has, uh, he's holy. And so he has
S7: expectations how he wants his people to live. And so
S7: that is what we break down in our ethical dimension
S7: of our book.
S1: Absolutely fascinating. The book is called Biblical Theology a canonical
S1: thematic and ethical approach. I can't believe we're halfway through
S1: our conversation. We're going to get into the way in
S1: which the book is laid out. Remember, you could spend
S1: the rest of your life reading this book and you'd
S1: still want more. There's a lot here. We're going to
S1: continue with Doctor Köstenberger right after this. The Bible says
S1: the Word of God illuminates our walk through life. It's
S1: a lamp to our feet and a light to our path.
S1: Without it, we stumble and fall in the market with
S1: Janet Parshall is designed to help you look at the
S1: headlines of the day through the lens of Scripture. When
S1: you become a partial partner, you help to make this
S1: broadcast possible, and as a partial partner, you'll receive exclusive benefits.
S1: So why not become a partial partner today? Call 877
S1: Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S1: I've discovered a new resource that is going to remain
S1: in the partial library, and I strongly recommend it be
S1: a part of your library as well. It's called biblical Theology,
S1: a canonical thematic and ethical approach. It is co-authored by
S1: Gregory Caswell and our guest, Doctor Andreas Köstenberger, who is
S1: the theologian in residence at Fellowship Raleigh. He's an internationally
S1: known Bible scholar, a prolific author of over 60 books,
S1: and the co-founder of Biblical Foundations at that website, Biblical Foundations. Org,
S1: which I have linked on our information page. There is
S1: a plethora of resources and a complete list of publications,
S1: and prolific is the operative word when it comes to
S1: the writings of Doctor Köstenberger. If you are just joining us,
S1: the warmest of welcomes. But I simply do want to
S1: encourage you to listen to the first half, because Doctor
S1: Köstenberger enters some rudimentary questions and does a flyover of
S1: this book. It is a look at all 66 books
S1: of the Bible. He breaks it into two parts the
S1: Old Testament and the New Testament, and as the subtitle suggests,
S1: he not only looks at the books that are inspired
S1: and in those 66 books, but also the major themes
S1: that are in the Bible and also the moral teachings
S1: we find in Scripture as well. Let me see if
S1: I can go to the fact that you broke the
S1: book up into part one and part two. And again,
S1: on one level, this is a rudimentary question. On the
S1: other hand, it's very emblematic of the deconstruction of faith
S1: that's going on out there, sadly, in the church capital
S1: C universal today. It's a foolish conversation, but it's emerged
S1: and it's been picked up. And ideas have consequences and
S1: foolish ideas have foolish consequences. The suggestion has been made
S1: that we should disconnect the old from the New Testament.
S1: Aside from the fact that you labeled it part one
S1: and part two. I see no disconnect whatsoever. In your
S1: book Biblical theology, there is a linkage, is there not
S1: between the two? Do we consider one to be old,
S1: one to be new, not just by the descriptor of
S1: the timeline, but its application to our life is one
S1: a picture of an angry God, the other a picture
S1: of a Savior with children on his lap. So we
S1: want to get rid of the God of Judgment and
S1: just go to the gentle, meek Jesus instead. In other words,
S1: there's a profundity in this question because, as I alluded
S1: to at the start of our conversation, this goes to
S1: the a la carte part of Scripture. Doctor Kastenberger I
S1: don't see anywhere in his word where I'm given permission
S1: to have a pick and choose approach to Scripture, whether
S1: that's the old and new or any passage I find
S1: anywhere in the Bible with which I find a problem
S1: in terms of its personal application. Talk to me about this.
S7: Absolutely, yes. We certainly don't think we should ditch the
S7: Old Testament. We wouldn't have 350 pages on the Old
S7: Testament in our book. And certainly my collaborator Greg, he
S7: would vehemently argue that the Old Testament, uh, is foundational. Uh,
S7: that is where we have, uh, you know, uh, major
S7: messianic prophecies, uh, that the, uh, the, the New Testament
S7: Gospels pick up on. And, you know, I invite the
S7: readers especially. We have an entire chapter on the New
S7: Testament use of the Old Testament. Uh, chapter seven, where
S7: we draw the connection between the two. And then, uh,
S7: the section on the New Testament shows how all four
S7: Gospels are just deeply and thoroughly grounded in Old Testament prediction, typology, symbolism,
S7: and so forth. So obviously, you know, people need to really, uh,
S7: get the book in the short time we have, we
S7: can't fully unpack the relationship between The Testaments. But those
S7: are all very important questions for biblical theology to address.
S7: And so you asked exactly the right question. And we're
S7: trying to do that in the book.
S1: Yeah. I'm so glad that you again devoted an entire
S1: chapter to this. And again, there's so much here. It's
S1: like it's like you and I having one hour and
S1: trying to digest a semester's class, and we wouldn't even,
S1: we wouldn't be able to do it in a semester.
S1: It'd be a year long class. So I want my
S1: friends to understand the depth and the width and the
S1: absolute richness in this new book, biblical theology. I'm giving
S1: you a flyover. I want to get you excited about
S1: this book. I want you to go out and get
S1: your own. And when you see this treasure of a book,
S1: you're going to understand that there's no way to summarize
S1: in an hour what's in this book, any more than
S1: Doctor Köstenberger could summarize what's in the Bible in one
S1: hour as well. So I'm lingering at some of these
S1: spots on purpose, so that you could hear Doctor Köstenberger
S1: and understand the continuity of Scripture here, which is, I think,
S1: not to be missed. It's one of the one of
S1: the blessings of the Word of God. So let me
S1: go back to the idea of the linkage between the two,
S1: if it weren't important. And by the way, I love
S1: the study of types in Scripture, I just those are
S1: the neon signs that God uses to tell us and
S1: tell us and tell us again. So we can't say
S1: we ain't been told. That's profound theology, according to Janet Parshall.
S1: So going back to this idea of the linkage between
S1: the two, if the Old Testament weren't significant, why would
S1: Jesus reference it so much?
S7: Absolutely. You're exactly right. You have to look no further
S7: than Jesus and the four evangelists as well. Um, and
S7: I think you know what we do in the book.
S7: Greg and I both we have sections where, uh, Greg
S7: talks about major themes in the Old Testament, and then
S7: I talk about major themes in the New Testament, and
S7: then we synthesize that in terms of the storyline of
S7: Scripture and the major biblical themes. So we want to
S7: make sure we don't just, uh, you know, submerge the
S7: Old Testament in the new, but we want to do
S7: justice to the Old Testament as a very important book
S7: in its own right, with its own distinctive themes and
S7: its own contribution to the library of Scripture.
S1: Yes. Amen to that. So early on in my marriage,
S1: I knew that I had married the right fella. When
S1: our first Christmas together, he asked for his Christmas present
S1: to be Schaefer's Systematic Theology, which is a multi-volume series,
S1: by the way, and he went through the entire thing
S1: at the beginning of the book. You talk about using
S1: a paradigm of exegesis to biblical theology, to systematic theology.
S1: What is the distinctive between biblical theology and systematic theology?
S7: Great question. And I think that distinction is very important.
S7: So biblical theology is essentially inductive meaning we come to
S7: it with no theological system as such. And as much
S7: as possible, we're opening ourselves up to discovering in Scripture
S7: what the authors themselves wanted to communicate. And so we
S7: look at the historical setting, we look at the literary context,
S7: and we look at the theological message is what I
S7: call a triadic hermeneutic of history, literature and theology. And so,
S7: as much as possible, we make some sort of a
S7: cumulative case that that we look at each book, book
S7: by book in its own right. And only after we've
S7: done that, we try to synthesize the biblical message on
S7: a thematic level, on an ethical level, and ultimately on
S7: a storyline of scripture level. So that is why the
S7: book is so long. Because imagine if you have to
S7: do that for all 66 books of Scripture.
S1: Mhm. Mhm. Absolutely. Wow. So let me go back to
S1: the Gospels because you talk about you've talked about that
S1: before and you broke down. In fact one entire chapter
S1: in the book, Biblical Theology is entitled The Gospels. When
S1: you go to the New Testament. I thought that was
S1: this was interesting. You talk about the order of the
S1: books in the canon. In the New Testament. You talk
S1: about the relationship between the Testaments. We just touched on that.
S1: Then you delineate the Gospels, the book of Acts, the
S1: letters of Paul, the general epistles, and the apocalypse, which
S1: I found absolutely logical and fascinating that it would be
S1: in that order if I were if I just landed
S1: here from another planet. And I said, what are these gospels?
S1: Why do they have that name? And why these four
S1: books in particular? Why are they so interconnected and so linked?
S1: What would you say?
S7: Yeah, I think that's a great biblical theological way to
S7: look at the New Testament, to look at the major
S7: building blocks. And so if you look at it that way,
S7: the four gospels lay the foundation, right? They are centered
S7: on one person, the Lord Jesus Christ, who is really
S7: also the center of the entire Bible. Uh, the Old
S7: Testament builds up to Jesus and then the the rest
S7: of the New Testament explicates what salvation in Christ means
S7: practically for us as Christians. You know, for how we
S7: ought to live. And so the Gospels are properly, uh,
S7: at the heart of Scripture and at the beginning of
S7: the New Testament, and they exhibit the new covenant that
S7: Jesus established with the 12, the, uh, the representatives of
S7: the church. And then after that you have the book
S7: of acts, which is essentially the narrative of how the
S7: apostles preached the resurrected Christ, the risen Jesus. And thousands
S7: of people responded and converted. And so early Christianity just
S7: grew by leaps and bounds. And then you have the letters.
S7: The letters basically apply the gospel message to ordinary, everyday Christians.
S7: And finally you have the the second coming that's, uh,
S7: foretold in revelation, in the apocalypse. And so you have
S7: the New Testament, like a beautiful rainbow, uh, beginning with
S7: the first coming and ending with the second coming of Jesus.
S7: And so even when you look at the whole Bible,
S7: Genesis and Revelation are just perfectly corresponding bookends, you know,
S7: from creation to new creation and from the garden to
S7: the new Jerusalem. And so, uh, I commend to people
S7: both biblical theology and looking at, at the Bible more synthetically,
S7: you know, how the different parts all fit perfectly within
S7: the whole library of the 66 books of Scripture.
S1: Wow. Hearkening back to the question I asked you before
S1: about the linkage between the Testaments, this raises another interesting question.
S1: And if you look at some of the data and
S1: I'm fascinated by data, maybe it's because I'm here in Washington,
S1: but it's also revelatory, I think sometimes of the condition
S1: of the church. So if you look at some of
S1: the research, for example, that Barnes has done, there are
S1: a growing number of Christians who don't think that Jesus
S1: was in the beginning, where the word was and the
S1: word was with God, that somehow he is a created
S1: being after the fact. If we disconnect the old and
S1: the New Testament, are we not just cutting out the
S1: prophecy and the foretelling and the types and the archetypes?
S1: But are we not also negating the fact that the
S1: triune nature of God is manifest early on in Scripture,
S1: and Jesus is present from the beginning, all the way
S1: through to the end?
S7: Absolutely. It's really a mistake to, in my Old Testament collaborator,
S7: really helped me understand that even better. The idea that
S7: God in the Old Testament is the Triune God. It
S7: is not just God the got the father. And so
S7: you're exactly right. You know, in the Gospel of John
S7: makes that clear than probably any other book in Scripture
S7: that Jesus preexisted with God at the very beginning already
S7: at creation. And it is through Jesus, the word that
S7: everything was created.
S1: Amen and amen. The book is called Biblical Theology. It
S1: is an absolutely fabulous, must have resource for your own
S1: personal study. Pastors obviously overflowing with richness for you as well.
S1: But it's also for the individual student who is serious
S1: about Scripture. And I just poked my head outside my
S1: front door today. I think the time to get serious
S1: about Scripture is now. Let's get started back after this.
S1: We're talking about a brand new resource that should be
S1: right there in your desks. When you're in your private
S1: time in the word, it's called biblical theology. A canonical
S1: thematic and ethical approach. It is co-authored by our guest,
S1: Doctor Andreas Köstenberger, who is a world renowned theologian and
S1: scholar in the Bible. By the way, it's clearly written.
S1: It's an analysis of all 66 books of the Bible.
S1: There's an emphasis on the coherent, unified framework of Scripture.
S1: It helps you and me thoughtfully interpret the scriptures. And
S1: it's ideal for, as I said before, not just academicians,
S1: if you want to go that route, but pastors and
S1: people like, I hope you and me who are serious
S1: students of the word as well. So at the end
S1: of the book, you call it conclusion appropriately, but you
S1: use two very trendy words right now, and I'd love
S1: for you to talk about it in its application to
S1: a conversation about biblical theology. You talk about unity and
S1: diversity in biblical theology. Unity and diversity. Break that down
S1: for our friends. I thought this was a fascinating chapter.
S7: Yes. You know, this has been a long standing debate
S7: in biblical theological circles how you navigate the tension between
S7: the two. Because, of course, as, uh, people with a
S7: high view of Scripture, we naturally believe that Scripture is
S7: unified and it is unified because God is one and
S7: God is unified. He's not contradictory. And so the very
S7: fact that God inspired Scripture already tells us that, uh,
S7: in the end, Scripture will be unified. It will not be,
S7: you know, it will not be found to contradict itself.
S7: But at the same time, uh, you look at, as
S7: I mentioned, the four gospels, for example, or, you know,
S7: Kings and Chronicles or, uh, the letters in the New Testament.
S7: And you see, there's a certain amount of diversity. We
S7: talked about that at the beginning of the interview, the
S7: fact that that the 12 apostles each had their own
S7: personalities and their own personal style. And so I think, uh,
S7: you know, I've heard it said that that, uh, the
S7: measure of a of a good biblical theology is the
S7: way it is able to handle legitimate diversity in Scripture,
S7: rather than just kind of like streamlining or flattening it. Uh,
S7: just in a legitimate desire to to emphasize the unity
S7: of Scripture. You you don't do justice to its diversity.
S7: So we're trying to to navigate that tension and to
S7: do justice to both the unity and the diversity of Scripture.
S1: Yeah. And you do an excellent job. So let me
S1: go back to what you said before about how you
S1: emphasize the love of God. Um, and I'm so glad
S1: that you do, because I don't want to study this
S1: as an academician. I'm drawn to the one who loved
S1: me so much, he gave his life for me. I
S1: was guilty as charged. The wages of sin is death.
S1: A penalty had to be paid. And Jesus steps in
S1: as the great mediator between me and God and says,
S1: I'll pay that price for you. So I'm drawn out
S1: of this incomprehensible message of the ultimate sacrifice. Go to
S1: the end of the book with the apocalypse, because there
S1: are a lot of believers to this day who look
S1: at this book and they let Hollywood be the theologian here.
S1: They let the movies teach them the theology. Why, in
S1: your perspective of the New Testament is this whole book
S1: that is the stuff of, um, well, wild fantasies for
S1: some people and outright fear for others. Why do you
S1: think God wanted this part of the book included? He
S1: he is the author. Everything is there for our instruction
S1: and our edification. Why the book of revelation?
S7: Yes, well, it is from a canonical standpoint. We need
S7: that book for proper closure of the entire canon. If
S7: we just imagine if we didn't have revelation, we wouldn't
S7: know how the story ends. We wouldn't have a vision of,
S7: of Jesus return of of of the eternal state, heaven.
S7: We wouldn't even have a record of the judgment of
S7: of of Satan and his demons. Uh, we wouldn't, uh, have, uh,
S7: proper closure. And so, uh, looking at the book from
S7: a biblical theology standpoint, where you look at the big picture,
S7: I think it's clear to see that the book is
S7: not primarily about those, you know, uh, bizarre end time
S7: scenarios or, you know, the, uh, some of those fine
S7: points that we often, uh, you know, entire denominations are
S7: divided over. You know, it is essentially about, uh, the,
S7: the love of God that that sent Jesus to redeem
S7: humanity and, and those who care to believe in Jesus.
S7: And and in the end, uh, there's consequences. There's judgment.
S7: We're all accountable to God. That's actually what brought me
S7: to the Lord, to be convinced that I would have
S7: to give an account to God one day for the
S7: life I lived. And I knew I couldn't do it, uh,
S7: in my own strength. And so that that that drew
S7: me to Jesus. And and that's how I trusted him.
S1: Wow. Can I linger here? Because that's so interesting. I
S1: just heard a pastor say yesterday that again, we are
S1: drawn to the love of God, but we do ourselves
S1: a disservice, and perhaps we fail to live out our
S1: salvation with fear and trembling. If we ignore the fact
S1: that he's also a holy judge. Let me just linger
S1: on that for a moment, because that might be a
S1: day to day question that a lot of people struggle with,
S1: and it keeps them from diving deep into the Word
S1: of God. So how can God be both a loving father,
S1: loving us so much that he did send his Son?
S1: But also, how can he be a holy judge? Again,
S1: we've used the phrase twice before, but I think it's
S1: apt in this. It's an it's not an either or.
S1: It's a both end. How does that work?
S7: Well, my wife and I talk about that all the
S7: time because she's a forthcoming book also in biblical theology
S7: on sanctification. And so she is reminding me of the
S7: holiness of God, uh, all the time, and also on
S7: the practical need for me to be a holy husband.
S7: And you know, that is a daily challenge to allow
S7: the Holy Spirit to to help me in that area.
S7: But I think Scripture tells us that God is both,
S7: as you said to be. He's he's holy, he's loving,
S7: he's also righteous. And I think the resolution comes in
S7: that he himself paid the penalty for our sin in
S7: the Lord Jesus Christ. Uh, one of my favorite verses
S7: in Romans chapter three. And, you know, starting in verse 21,
S7: it says, God is both just and the justifier of
S7: those who believe in Jesus. Isn't that a just a tremendous,
S7: wonderful verse that the judge himself came down in form
S7: of his son and paid the penalty for sin himself?
S1: Yes. How often does a judge step in and pay
S1: the penalty for the criminal in front of him? Wow,
S1: that's so amazing. One last question, if I may, in
S1: an hour that's gone far too quickly. This is a
S1: seminal work. What is it like for you as a
S1: scholar and an author when you finally put the last
S1: word on and it's now bound, what do you think? Personally,
S1: when you look at a work like this, a sense
S1: of accomplishment? Or do you think, oh, if I had
S1: only included this, that and the other thing?
S7: Well, I think, Janet, thanks for asking. For me, this
S7: is a very personal project. It culminates 30 years of
S7: teaching and writing and research, and I'm grateful for my collaborator,
S7: for Greg as well, to partner with me. I couldn't
S7: have done it myself. But together, I think, you know,
S7: we're both, uh, hoping that this will be helpful resource,
S7: because biblical theology is a great way to study scripture,
S7: and I certainly invite all our listeners to try it
S7: for themselves and to study the Bible. Uh, biblically. Theologically.
S1: Yeah. Amen. And may I echo that the book, again,
S1: is called Biblical Theology a canonical thematic and ethical approach.
S1: Let's be a part of that idea that we want
S1: a higher view of Scripture, and we're going to be
S1: a serious student of Scripture, because a great and loving
S1: God ended for our benefit and our edification. Thank you,
S1: Doctor Köstenberger. See you next time, friends.