WEBVTT - Hour 2: Biblical Theology 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.800 Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:06.920 and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens, 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.520 and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:11.440 But before you go, I want to tell you about 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.680 this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered? 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.720 And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me, 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.600 going out into the night sky and looking up and 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.439 seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.560 about God? And are you not in a moment of 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.960 awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.600 of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.800 that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.240 wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.480 of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.720 book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.879 from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.160 a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.599 this sense of awe through the work that they do. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.120 In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.440 it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.139 because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you 0:01:00.140 --> 0:01:03.540 to walk through the chapters written by people who all 0:01:03.540 --> 0:01:06.300 have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes 0:01:06.300 --> 0:01:09.100 to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an 0:01:09.100 --> 0:01:11.420 amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount, 0:01:11.420 --> 0:01:16.260 just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask 0:01:16.260 --> 0:01:19.140 for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll 0:01:19.140 --> 0:01:20.420 send it right off to you as my way of 0:01:20.420 --> 0:01:22.940 saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or 0:01:22.940 --> 0:01:25.380 you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. 0:01:26.540 --> 0:01:29.420 When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner. 0:01:29.420 --> 0:01:31.620 Those are people who give every single month at a 0:01:31.620 --> 0:01:34.100 level of their own choosing. You always get the truth tool, 0:01:34.140 --> 0:01:36.260 but in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter 0:01:36.260 --> 0:01:39.060 that includes my writing and an audio piece just for 0:01:39.060 --> 0:01:43.220 my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58 or the website 0:01:43.220 --> 0:01:46.860 in the market with Janet Parshall. Consider becoming a partial 0:01:46.860 --> 0:01:49.780 partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you 0:01:49.780 --> 0:01:53.100 ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast. 0:01:53.660 --> 0:01:55.180 Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 0:01:55.460 --> 0:01:57.740 The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 0:01:57.740 --> 0:01:59.970 The Americans worshiping government over God. 0:02:00.290 --> 0:02:03.690 Extremely rare safety move by a mage 17 years. 0:02:03.690 --> 0:02:05.770 The Palestinians and the Israelis negotiated. 0:02:06.050 --> 0:02:08.250 The idea is not bad. 0:02:21.770 --> 0:02:24.770 Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. 0:02:24.810 --> 0:02:26.929 How often do you hear me say on this program 0:02:27.250 --> 0:02:31.609 that what we aim to do clear transparency. Our agenda 0:02:31.610 --> 0:02:34.570 is to help you to think critically and biblically. And 0:02:34.570 --> 0:02:37.050 for the record, those are not mutually exclusive postures, by 0:02:37.050 --> 0:02:39.290 the way. It's not an either or. It is a both. 0:02:39.290 --> 0:02:42.090 And how do I know that? Because the Bible tells 0:02:42.090 --> 0:02:45.090 me so. My heart is transformed, my mind is renewed. 0:02:45.090 --> 0:02:48.649 But here's what I also know. My job is to gently, lovingly, 0:02:48.650 --> 0:02:52.049 consistently push you out into the marketplace of ideas. Because 0:02:52.050 --> 0:02:54.730 that is exactly where Jesus told us to go. And 0:02:54.730 --> 0:02:57.310 it's a mess out there. And here's what I know 0:02:57.310 --> 0:03:00.390 in Your Pilgrim's Progress, as you must necessarily pass through 0:03:00.389 --> 0:03:03.590 Vanity Fair if you don't have, as John Bunyan called it, 0:03:03.590 --> 0:03:05.709 the map, which is the Word of God, you're going 0:03:05.710 --> 0:03:07.870 to get lost. And here's all the data that we 0:03:07.870 --> 0:03:11.269 know right now. We are growing more and more biblically illiterate. 0:03:11.310 --> 0:03:13.870 I expect the world to act like the world. The 0:03:13.870 --> 0:03:16.670 world is doing exactly what the world does without Jesus. 0:03:16.669 --> 0:03:19.150 But it is the church where I'm far more concerned, 0:03:19.389 --> 0:03:22.230 where we are now getting a very diluted idea of 0:03:22.230 --> 0:03:24.429 what the scriptures say. We approach it like it's one 0:03:24.430 --> 0:03:26.669 of those buffet restaurants, you know, with the ones with 0:03:26.669 --> 0:03:29.190 the glass, and you just walk around and you take 0:03:29.190 --> 0:03:31.230 all the desserts you want, you take all the carbs 0:03:31.230 --> 0:03:33.590 you want, you skip the vegetables because after all, nobody 0:03:33.590 --> 0:03:35.750 likes those. And when you're done, you have a pile 0:03:35.750 --> 0:03:38.950 full of calories and not much nutrition. That's the approach 0:03:38.990 --> 0:03:40.430 a whole lot of people are taking to the Word 0:03:40.430 --> 0:03:42.350 of God right now. They pick and choose. I don't 0:03:42.350 --> 0:03:45.190 like this part. It's uncomfortable. I don't understand it. I'm 0:03:45.230 --> 0:03:48.750 not sure it's really applying to our world today. By 0:03:48.750 --> 0:03:51.270 the way. Maybe there is some legitimacy after all. I 0:03:51.270 --> 0:03:53.430 read it in a checkout line at the grocery store 0:03:53.470 --> 0:03:55.980 that it was only an oral tradition handed down by 0:03:55.980 --> 0:03:59.060 ignorant Bedouins. And by the way, the only eyewitnesses were 0:03:59.060 --> 0:04:02.340 500 years after the fact that it was written. And 0:04:02.340 --> 0:04:04.860 guess what? The next thing you know, book of Colossians. Boom! 0:04:04.860 --> 0:04:08.420 You've been taken captive through vain and hollow philosophies. So 0:04:08.420 --> 0:04:10.940 with this, our specifically is designed to do is to 0:04:10.980 --> 0:04:14.660 help you think critically and biblically about the Bible. I 0:04:14.700 --> 0:04:16.660 have been waiting for this book. It sits on my 0:04:16.660 --> 0:04:19.060 desk and I've been arm wrestling with my husband as 0:04:19.060 --> 0:04:21.900 to on which desk it will finally sit. I think 0:04:21.900 --> 0:04:24.099 he won. He gets to add it to his whole 0:04:24.100 --> 0:04:27.779 section of systematic theology, but for right now it's mine 0:04:27.779 --> 0:04:30.180 and I treasure it. It is a brand new book 0:04:30.180 --> 0:04:35.660 called Biblical Theology, a canonical thematic and ethical approach. Come on, 0:04:35.820 --> 0:04:38.260 come back in the room. This is not just for academicians. 0:04:38.460 --> 0:04:40.500 This is for you and me to understand how to 0:04:40.500 --> 0:04:45.460 understand the whole truth of the Bible historically, contextually, systematically. 0:04:45.460 --> 0:04:47.300 And that's what we're going to talk about this hour. 0:04:47.300 --> 0:04:49.220 It is a marvelous book. Let me just picture it 0:04:49.220 --> 0:04:51.980 for you. It's about two inches thick. Now, if you're driving, 0:04:52.020 --> 0:04:55.040 don't do this. Just use your sanctified imagination. But just 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.080 figure the space between two figures as two inches. What 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:03.000 that means is it's a huge academic undertaking, the kind 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:07.000 of research that only great academicians and great biblical scholars 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.280 can do. And that's exactly who we're going to talk 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:14.440 to this hour. One of those wonderful scholars, Doctor Andreas Köstenberger, 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.719 is with us. He is the theologian in residence at 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:21.799 Fellowship Raleigh. He's an internationally known Bible scholar, a prolific 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.680 author of over 60 books, and co-founder of Biblical Foundations. 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:31.480 By the way, his website, Biblical Foundations, also features an 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.839 abundance of resources and a complete list of publications. But he, 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.720 along with Gregory Caswell, wrote this book and it was 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:40.760 very much his heart's passion to be able to do it. 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.960 So first and foremost, Doctor Köstenberger the warmest of welcomes. 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:45.719 And let me ask you why you decided to take 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:47.360 such a huge undertaking. 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.750 Well, Janet, first of all, thanks for that great introduction, 0:05:53.150 --> 0:05:58.029 I really appreciate your, uh, just sharing our vision that 0:05:58.070 --> 0:06:01.150 that we ought to be whole Bible Christians. You know, 0:06:01.190 --> 0:06:05.710 our Bibles contain 66 books. And, uh, so often, as 0:06:05.710 --> 0:06:08.110 you mentioned, we we tend to kind of pick and 0:06:08.110 --> 0:06:11.349 choose and, and like Paul told the Ephesian elders that 0:06:11.350 --> 0:06:15.590 for three years he didn't cease from proclaiming to them 0:06:15.589 --> 0:06:19.029 the whole counsel of God. And so, uh, I agree, 0:06:19.070 --> 0:06:22.990 it's a daunting task to to write a book about, 0:06:23.029 --> 0:06:26.030 you know, the entire Bible. Uh, and that's why it's 0:06:26.029 --> 0:06:29.270 so long. It had to be, uh, but our vision 0:06:29.270 --> 0:06:32.589 is to to serve as a resource and to serve 0:06:32.589 --> 0:06:35.030 as an aid for, for people in our churches to 0:06:35.070 --> 0:06:37.390 become whole Bible Christians. 0:06:38.310 --> 0:06:41.390 Um, what a beautiful description. And may that be our 0:06:41.390 --> 0:06:45.230 goal to be just that whole Christians understanding the whole 0:06:45.230 --> 0:06:47.350 counsel of God so we can apply the whole truth 0:06:47.350 --> 0:06:49.469 of the whole gospel to the whole world. There's a 0:06:49.470 --> 0:06:51.609 synergy here that cannot be missed. So a couple of 0:06:51.650 --> 0:06:54.409 questions right out of the gate. I very much appreciated 0:06:54.410 --> 0:06:58.289 your opening chapter because you understood and stated quite transparently 0:06:58.290 --> 0:07:02.370 the daunting nature of what this is like. So if 0:07:02.370 --> 0:07:03.890 we're going to look at this, let me just give 0:07:03.930 --> 0:07:05.690 a I'm going to do a flyover for my friends 0:07:05.690 --> 0:07:09.130 that this becomes more attractive for them as a resource 0:07:09.130 --> 0:07:12.290 that must be in their own library. So when I 0:07:12.290 --> 0:07:14.410 looked at this first and it again, it's a study 0:07:14.410 --> 0:07:17.290 of the 66 books of the Bible, how do you 0:07:17.290 --> 0:07:22.450 picture the average user using this particular book as a concordance, 0:07:22.450 --> 0:07:25.290 as a side by side with the Bible, as a 0:07:25.290 --> 0:07:29.130 insightful viewing of a passage? Explain the way in which 0:07:29.130 --> 0:07:31.090 you laid this out, because you did it with a 0:07:31.090 --> 0:07:34.210 methodology so that it would become user friendly. Explain that 0:07:34.210 --> 0:07:35.090 if you would, please. 0:07:36.450 --> 0:07:38.770 Yeah, that's right. I think there could be multiple ways 0:07:38.770 --> 0:07:42.170 people could use it. There might be some who patiently 0:07:42.170 --> 0:07:44.690 and slowly read through the whole book cover to cover, 0:07:45.210 --> 0:07:48.990 but I think probably more will look at it as 0:07:48.990 --> 0:07:52.870 a resource. We have a very detailed table of contents 0:07:52.870 --> 0:07:56.070 and we have very thorough indices. And so I think 0:07:56.190 --> 0:08:00.350 anyone who say a pastor who preaches a sermon series on, say, 0:08:00.350 --> 0:08:03.790 the book of Hosea might just find the, you know, 0:08:03.830 --> 0:08:06.910 the 10 or 12 pages in the book that lay 0:08:06.910 --> 0:08:10.830 out the major themes in Hosea, the ethical teachings in 0:08:10.870 --> 0:08:15.710 that book, and how Hosea fits within the storyline of Scripture. 0:08:15.950 --> 0:08:19.750 And it would be, I think, a very good foundation 0:08:19.750 --> 0:08:22.670 for them to make sure that they do justice to 0:08:22.710 --> 0:08:26.630 that book. So in many cases, people will simply or 0:08:27.470 --> 0:08:30.910 serious Bible students or people in the churches, uh, you know, 0:08:30.950 --> 0:08:34.230 would simply go to that section in the book that 0:08:34.230 --> 0:08:37.110 deals with the book that, that they're currently studying or 0:08:37.110 --> 0:08:38.430 they're about to study. 0:08:39.429 --> 0:08:41.189 You right in the beginning. And if I may borrow 0:08:41.230 --> 0:08:43.470 your words, how do you wrap your brain around a 0:08:43.470 --> 0:08:46.510 library of 66 books written over hundreds of years by 0:08:46.510 --> 0:08:49.699 dozens of authors. What is the story the Bible sets 0:08:49.700 --> 0:08:51.900 out to tell? How do you know that your readings 0:08:51.900 --> 0:08:55.500 of Scripture is in keeping with its actual God intended message? 0:08:55.540 --> 0:08:58.660 What's more, as an inspired book, the Bible does not 0:08:58.660 --> 0:09:01.620 merely aim to impact the knowledge of God and His ways. 0:09:02.100 --> 0:09:05.140 It also seeks to draw us into a deep personal 0:09:05.140 --> 0:09:08.660 engagement with God and others. So this isn't just a 0:09:08.700 --> 0:09:11.020 book you'd have to buy for your first semester class 0:09:11.020 --> 0:09:12.900 in college, if you were doing a survey of the 0:09:12.900 --> 0:09:15.540 Old Testament. This is designed for you and me to 0:09:15.580 --> 0:09:21.500 do a deep dive to better understand this inerrant, transcendent, immutable, 0:09:21.500 --> 0:09:25.580 inspired map for Our Pilgrim's Progress. We've got so much 0:09:25.580 --> 0:09:28.380 to talk about. And I'm absolutely thrilled and honestly quite 0:09:28.420 --> 0:09:32.140 honored that Doctor Andreas Köstenberger would give us one hour 0:09:32.140 --> 0:09:34.500 of his time. It's a wonderful book. And by the 0:09:34.500 --> 0:09:36.060 time this hour is through, I hope you don't walk, 0:09:36.059 --> 0:09:38.260 but you run to get your copy back after this. 0:09:45.340 --> 0:09:47.680 Have you ever wondered why music moves us so deeply? 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.320 Or why beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:52.720 this month is a thought provoking book that explores those 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:54.960 moments of wonder we all encounter. It's called Have You 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.320 ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.680 the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:03.319 you ever wondered when you give a gift of any 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:07.079 amount to in the market, call eight 7758, that's eight 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.880 7758 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:17.199 We are visiting with internationally known Bible scholar and prolific author, 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.960 Doctor Andreas Köstenberger, and we are discussing a brand new, 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:25.200 and I would venture to say, a much beloved, treasured resource. 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.079 That's what it is going to become. It certainly is 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:30.679 in our house already. It's called biblical theology, a canonical 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.480 thematic and ethical approach. And we will break down those 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.840 three sections for you. But you start out early in 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.000 the book, Doctor Köstenberger, and I'm so glad you did 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:41.199 in defining the words biblical theology. For some people, they 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.309 might think that that's redundant. After all, isn't the Bible 0:10:44.309 --> 0:10:47.190 Christian theology? So if you break that down for us, 0:10:47.190 --> 0:10:48.150 how do you define it? 0:10:50.270 --> 0:10:53.310 Yes, that's right. It's more than just theology that is biblical. 0:10:53.309 --> 0:10:57.030 It is actually the theology of the biblical writers themselves. 0:10:57.070 --> 0:11:00.590 And so, you know, sometimes what we do as Christians 0:11:00.590 --> 0:11:04.469 is we already have our own convictions and we we sometimes, 0:11:04.750 --> 0:11:08.469 you know, tend to read them into Scripture. But but ideally, 0:11:08.470 --> 0:11:11.710 we would listen to the text itself and we would 0:11:11.710 --> 0:11:16.189 draw out what the biblical authors themselves believed. We would 0:11:16.190 --> 0:11:20.430 try to listen to what the authors themselves believed and 0:11:20.429 --> 0:11:25.069 intended to communicate to their original readers and also to us. 0:11:25.470 --> 0:11:29.070 And so in that sense, biblical theology is really the 0:11:29.070 --> 0:11:31.830 proper place to start for us, because we want to 0:11:31.830 --> 0:11:34.310 know what the Bible says to us. We want the 0:11:34.309 --> 0:11:37.390 Bible to engage us and to inform us, even to 0:11:37.429 --> 0:11:41.190 change and transform us, rather to simply engage in this 0:11:41.230 --> 0:11:44.290 kind of circular reasoning where we find what we're looking for. 0:11:45.250 --> 0:11:47.410 Beautifully answered. In other words, this is what sets it 0:11:47.410 --> 0:11:50.170 apart from war and peace. All right. There's this is again, 0:11:50.170 --> 0:11:52.650 a living book designed to change us, not tell us 0:11:52.650 --> 0:11:55.410 a good story, although the Bible certainly has many of those. 0:11:55.410 --> 0:11:57.210 But it is designed to change us. Let me go 0:11:57.210 --> 0:11:59.689 back to something you said, and forgive me if some 0:11:59.690 --> 0:12:02.210 of the questions seem pretty rudimentary, but I think going 0:12:02.210 --> 0:12:06.130 back and reestablishing a firm foundation is paramount, particularly when 0:12:06.130 --> 0:12:08.330 one is going to do a deep dive. So you 0:12:08.330 --> 0:12:12.250 said the theology of the writers themselves. I believe that 100%. 0:12:12.250 --> 0:12:14.730 But I know there are people listening, some all across 0:12:14.730 --> 0:12:16.850 the country, who might say, but wait a minute. The 0:12:16.850 --> 0:12:21.490 individuality of the author here is secondary to the inspiration 0:12:21.690 --> 0:12:23.929 of the Holy Spirit. So how can it be the 0:12:23.929 --> 0:12:28.770 theology of the writers themselves? Weren't they simply scribes? If 0:12:28.770 --> 0:12:31.290 you can put it that way, for the Holy Spirit? 0:12:33.170 --> 0:12:35.890 Well, it's not an either or, Janet, as you know. 0:12:35.929 --> 0:12:39.370 It's it's a both and and of course. Yeah. In 0:12:39.370 --> 0:12:41.960 the end we have a high view of Scripture. We 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.040 believe that Scripture is inspired and inerrant, but at the 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:50.640 same time, God used the individual personalities and interests and 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.560 and style of of of the individual authors. You know, 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:58.199 when you look at the 12 apostles, for example, in 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.240 in the Gospels, uh, you just see how Jesus, uh, 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.560 you know, picked people who are very different from each other. 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.600 And so, uh, you see that reflected in the way 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:11.280 they wrote, and you have to look no further than 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.520 the Gospels. And when you look at Matthew, Mark, Luke, 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.839 and John, especially John, you know, they each, uh, tell 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:22.640 the same story, uh, about, uh, Jesus in history, uh, 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:25.880 you know, coming to earth and, and, and engaging in 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.079 the three year ministry and then, uh, dying and then 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:33.400 being buried and rising from the dead. But, uh, they 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.160 don't tell it all exactly the same way. And so 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.480 that's a great example, I think, of what biblical theology 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.900 Theologies can do. It can help us discover the distinctive 0:13:43.420 --> 0:13:50.220 interests and ways to the different biblical writers communicated eternal truth. 0:13:51.660 --> 0:13:53.740 Let me linger, because I think your example of the 0:13:53.780 --> 0:13:58.220 Gospels is readily understood. So the doctor Luke, would observe things, 0:13:58.220 --> 0:14:01.700 for example, that John would not. Now, that doesn't set 0:14:01.740 --> 0:14:05.220 up a paradigm for conflict. It's perspective. But it all 0:14:05.220 --> 0:14:08.060 leads to the same conclusion. Is that an oversimplification or 0:14:08.059 --> 0:14:08.900 is that correct? 0:14:10.500 --> 0:14:12.780 Yeah, no, that's a great example. And so for instance, 0:14:12.780 --> 0:14:17.020 you find that Luke is very interested in in socioeconomic matters. 0:14:17.020 --> 0:14:21.020 He talks about poverty a great deal. He emphasizes emphasizes 0:14:21.020 --> 0:14:26.260 those who are marginalized in society, such as widows. And John, 0:14:26.300 --> 0:14:28.979 on the other hand, has very little interest in economics. 0:14:28.980 --> 0:14:33.980 He focuses more on our eternal destiny and the importance 0:14:33.980 --> 0:14:37.900 of believing in Jesus for eternal life. And so, uh, 0:14:37.930 --> 0:14:41.170 you know, of course, both are part of a gospel message. Uh, 0:14:41.170 --> 0:14:44.130 but if we just read Luke or John, I think 0:14:44.130 --> 0:14:47.850 we would, uh, miss, uh, kind of important, uh, entailment 0:14:47.850 --> 0:14:50.690 of Jesus coming. But that is why it is so 0:14:50.690 --> 0:14:54.050 important for us to study all four gospels and by extension, 0:14:54.050 --> 0:14:58.530 to study all 66 books of Scripture. Because every book 0:14:58.570 --> 0:15:01.130 has a reason for being in the canon, we believe 0:15:01.170 --> 0:15:04.770 God chose those books for us to have in our scriptures, 0:15:04.770 --> 0:15:07.250 and so we need to do justice to the entire 0:15:07.250 --> 0:15:08.970 library of books that we have. 0:15:09.490 --> 0:15:12.130 Yes. Excellent. You say in the book that and I'm 0:15:12.130 --> 0:15:17.330 particularly intrigued by this, that in North American conservative evangelicalism 0:15:17.330 --> 0:15:20.130 and you write, there's a new type of biblical theology 0:15:20.130 --> 0:15:23.330 that's begun to flourish based on a high view of 0:15:23.330 --> 0:15:27.690 Scripture and grounded in both historical research and literary study. Now, 0:15:27.690 --> 0:15:31.850 that excites me. Why do you think this this reinvigoration 0:15:31.850 --> 0:15:33.210 is taking place right now? 0:15:35.050 --> 0:15:39.110 Well, I think there's a tremendous emphasis on story and 0:15:39.110 --> 0:15:42.070 to some extent that comes from postmodernism, but I think 0:15:42.110 --> 0:15:46.990 it works very well because the Bible is the metanarrative, 0:15:47.150 --> 0:15:49.390 the mother of meta narratives. I think it is the 0:15:49.390 --> 0:15:53.630 story that explains all other stories. And so that is 0:15:53.630 --> 0:15:55.950 why in our book, we place a great deal of 0:15:55.950 --> 0:15:59.590 emphasis on the overall storyline of the Bible. You know, 0:15:59.630 --> 0:16:01.910 I think it's so easy sometimes for us to get 0:16:01.950 --> 0:16:04.590 hung up and, and, you know, in some of the 0:16:04.590 --> 0:16:07.630 details of Scripture and I think biblical theology, what's so 0:16:07.630 --> 0:16:10.750 beautiful about it is that it focuses on synthesis. It 0:16:10.750 --> 0:16:15.510 focuses on connections between the different books and different parts 0:16:15.510 --> 0:16:18.150 of Scripture the Old Testament, the New Testament, you know, 0:16:18.190 --> 0:16:22.350 the storyline, the progressive way in which God has revealed 0:16:22.350 --> 0:16:25.950 himself to his people in history. And so I think 0:16:25.950 --> 0:16:29.950 that's one reason why I think biblical theology resonates very 0:16:29.950 --> 0:16:31.750 deeply with our culture today. 0:16:32.350 --> 0:16:34.550 Wow. You made me think of something. So let me 0:16:34.550 --> 0:16:36.530 just pull over to the side of the road for 0:16:36.530 --> 0:16:39.970 a moment. You have a very impressive curriculum vitae. You 0:16:39.970 --> 0:16:43.330 are known as an international Bible scholar, as somebody who 0:16:43.330 --> 0:16:46.729 has studied and studied and studied and quite literally plumbed 0:16:46.730 --> 0:16:50.210 the depths of Scripture at this point. Is it all 0:16:50.490 --> 0:16:52.810 old to you? Do you know it all or in 0:16:52.810 --> 0:16:55.730 the vibrancy of this word? Are you still discovering new 0:16:55.730 --> 0:16:57.410 things in your own personal study? 0:16:59.090 --> 0:17:05.130 Oh, absolutely. I almost every day and I immersed in Scripture, 0:17:05.170 --> 0:17:09.730 I discover new things every day. I remember, uh, just 0:17:09.730 --> 0:17:13.450 yesterday looking at Luke's gospel where, uh, you know, Jesus 0:17:13.490 --> 0:17:16.690 is entering Jerusalem at the triumphal entry, and the disciples 0:17:16.690 --> 0:17:21.250 are saying, uh, peace in heaven and glory to God 0:17:22.330 --> 0:17:25.250 in the highest. And I was thinking, wait a minute, 0:17:25.250 --> 0:17:28.250 that sounds just like the birth narrative, where it said, 0:17:28.290 --> 0:17:30.250 you know, peace on earth and glory to God in 0:17:30.250 --> 0:17:33.010 the highest. So you see those connections. And, you know, 0:17:33.050 --> 0:17:35.600 for some reason I never picked it up before. So 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.320 you're right. It's an exciting journey of discovery. 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:42.480 Yes, and very much an alive text. When we come back, 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.760 I do want to look at those three subtexts canonical, 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.960 thematic and ethical, and how that ties in to biblical theology. 0:17:50.000 --> 0:18:01.440 Back after this. Doctor Andreas Köstenberger is with us, theologian 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:05.600 in residence at Fellowship Raleigh. He is also, by the way, 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.600 the author of over 60 books and the co-founder of 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.440 Biblical Foundations. I have a link to his website at 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:16.080 Biblical Foundations, but I'm particularly excited to have this conversation 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:21.480 today with Doctor Köstenberger because he and his co-author, Gregory Carswell, 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:23.720 have created what I think is going to be one 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.680 of those irreplaceable resources in your legacy library. It's an 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:32.100 overview of the entire Bible, all 66 books, and it's 0:18:32.100 --> 0:18:37.580 entitled Biblical Theology A Canonical Thematic and Ethical Approach. Now, 0:18:37.980 --> 0:18:41.100 Doctor Köstenberger, I think some of us understand the canonical part. 0:18:41.100 --> 0:18:43.460 I think some of us might understand the thematic part. 0:18:43.740 --> 0:18:45.540 It's the ethical part that I think is going to 0:18:45.540 --> 0:18:47.620 be interesting to some people. But would you take those 0:18:47.619 --> 0:18:50.500 three words in order? I don't want to presume anything. 0:18:50.540 --> 0:18:53.260 People are at various levels of study. And by the way, 0:18:53.300 --> 0:18:54.660 let me just tell you that this is the kind 0:18:54.660 --> 0:18:59.100 of book that could become your semester Bible survey class. 0:18:59.100 --> 0:19:01.859 It's that big, that important. And I think that rich. 0:19:01.900 --> 0:19:04.619 But those three words, if you break them down for us, please. 0:19:06.340 --> 0:19:10.100 Yes. So canon refers to the library of the 66 0:19:10.100 --> 0:19:13.260 books of Scripture that the early church chose to include 0:19:13.260 --> 0:19:17.740 in our US inspired collection our library of of of 0:19:17.900 --> 0:19:22.340 the Bible. And so what we do, uh, as a 0:19:22.340 --> 0:19:26.419 canonical approach, is we study, uh, each of those book 0:19:26.420 --> 0:19:30.810 by book, uh, starting with Genesis ending in Revelations. So 0:19:31.010 --> 0:19:36.290 it could be a great resource just for the canonical, uh, portion. Uh, 0:19:36.290 --> 0:19:38.450 and then, uh, for each book, we look at the 0:19:38.450 --> 0:19:45.209 major themes and then we synthesize, uh, the. Uh, contributions, uh, for, 0:19:45.250 --> 0:19:47.929 for instance, the Five Books of Moses or for the 0:19:47.970 --> 0:19:51.770 Gospels and, um. And so that would be, uh, our 0:19:52.290 --> 0:19:59.410 canonical approach, uh, thematic uh, refers to, uh, the, uh, 0:19:59.410 --> 0:20:03.810 themes that we determine inductively just by repeated reading of 0:20:03.850 --> 0:20:06.530 that book. For example, uh, as you look at first 0:20:06.530 --> 0:20:10.889 and second Timothy and Titus, the so-called pastoral epistles, uh, 0:20:10.930 --> 0:20:15.489 we feature six major themes, uh, God and Christ, who 0:20:15.490 --> 0:20:20.810 are called our savior, uh, teaching, especially scripture. Uh, the 0:20:20.810 --> 0:20:25.850 church is the household of God, uh, Christian virtues, the 0:20:25.850 --> 0:20:31.469 end times, um, and salvation. So we feel in some 0:20:31.470 --> 0:20:34.630 cases those are themes that are unique and that are 0:20:34.630 --> 0:20:38.550 distinctive of just those particular books. That's their contribution to 0:20:38.590 --> 0:20:42.350 the canon as a whole. And then finally, ethical. Ethical 0:20:42.350 --> 0:20:46.629 has to do with the moral teachings of Scripture. You know, Janet, Bible, 0:20:46.670 --> 0:20:49.750 the Bible is not just written for our information, but 0:20:49.750 --> 0:20:54.230 it's written for application. It's not just written to inform believers, 0:20:54.230 --> 0:20:56.950 but it's written to tell us how to live. And 0:20:56.950 --> 0:21:00.750 so embedded in our book is an entire biblical ethic, 0:21:00.750 --> 0:21:04.230 which I believe is a first for biblical theologies. 0:21:05.109 --> 0:21:07.389 I do too. And that's why I wanted to linger 0:21:07.390 --> 0:21:09.629 for a moment. You used the word postmodernism earlier. Let 0:21:09.630 --> 0:21:11.470 me go back to that word. You know, I think 0:21:11.470 --> 0:21:13.989 there are people out in the marketplace of ideas who 0:21:13.990 --> 0:21:17.550 would say, okay, I understand the canonical aspect. I don't 0:21:17.550 --> 0:21:20.430 dispute your thematic aspects, but when you get to the 0:21:20.430 --> 0:21:24.070 ethical part, when you get to the transformative nature of Scripture, 0:21:24.390 --> 0:21:26.270 therein lies the rub. If I can borrow from the 0:21:26.270 --> 0:21:29.100 great Bard, So I don't mind your historicity. I don't 0:21:29.100 --> 0:21:31.820 mind your canonical approach. But when you tell me now 0:21:31.820 --> 0:21:35.180 what this book has to say about changing me, I 0:21:35.220 --> 0:21:37.820 have a problem. So it begs a whole, you and 0:21:37.820 --> 0:21:39.899 I could do ten hours on just this ethical aspect, 0:21:39.900 --> 0:21:42.060 but let me just dig into a couple here, particularly 0:21:42.060 --> 0:21:44.740 for those who think they've stumbled onto this conversation and 0:21:44.740 --> 0:21:47.979 may be questioning the legitimacy, the historicity, the validity of 0:21:47.980 --> 0:21:50.900 God's Word. So is it safe to say that when 0:21:50.900 --> 0:21:54.180 we look at the moral teachings, the ethical changes that 0:21:54.180 --> 0:21:56.940 are brought about in each and every human being, if 0:21:56.940 --> 0:21:59.660 they apply the word of God, can we say that 0:21:59.660 --> 0:22:02.740 there's an expiration date? One of the arguments in postmodernism 0:22:02.740 --> 0:22:04.460 is that was meant for a different day and time. 0:22:04.460 --> 0:22:07.500 It has no relevancy to the 21st century. Can we 0:22:07.500 --> 0:22:10.180 say that about and I'm not talking about the mosaic, 0:22:10.220 --> 0:22:14.379 the mosaic law. I'm talking about the general transcendent expected 0:22:14.380 --> 0:22:18.100 rules of deportment and honoring a holy God. Does that 0:22:18.100 --> 0:22:19.300 have a time date on it? 0:22:21.420 --> 0:22:24.140 Uh, not at all. And, uh, Janet, I totally get 0:22:24.140 --> 0:22:26.800 your drift here. And I think that's very important to understand. 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:29.800 And in our book we particularly focus on the love 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:33.440 of God, the love of God for us, uh, people 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:37.399 as as sinners and and redemption. He provides in Christ. 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:40.639 And and as we read in Scripture, God is love 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:43.920 and and and we love because God first loved us. 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.000 So at the heart of the biblical narrative, we believe 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:51.960 is a loving God who wants us to reciprocate that 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.760 love by loving him. Uh, like Jesus said, the first 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:58.760 and greatest commandment, and then to love others the way 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:01.760 Jesus loved us. So that would be probably the most 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:04.920 important example I could give you in the short time 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:08.520 we have, you know, for how, uh, the biblical message 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:12.040 is transcendent and not merely subjective. 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:16.479 Um, beautifully stated. Does the word of God, uh, again, 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:19.360 some rudimentary questions here. If it is about the love 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:21.480 of God and most assuredly is God is the only 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:24.740 one of whom it is said, is love. so that 0:23:24.780 --> 0:23:26.660 in and of itself should stop us in our tracks. 0:23:26.660 --> 0:23:30.260 But is the book designed to reveal the characteristics of 0:23:30.260 --> 0:23:32.500 God so that we might know him better or. Again, 0:23:32.500 --> 0:23:35.420 I asked for the seeker. Is that experiential? We don't. 0:23:35.460 --> 0:23:37.980 We only know him by experiencing him. We can't know 0:23:37.980 --> 0:23:39.380 him through his revealed word. 0:23:41.420 --> 0:23:45.060 Yeah. Of course. Um, all of Scripture is, is, uh, 0:23:45.220 --> 0:23:49.340 presupposing the existence of God and the fact that he's 0:23:49.340 --> 0:23:53.780 the creator, he's the sovereign ruler of the universe. And so, uh, 0:23:53.820 --> 0:23:58.340 you know, that increasingly, uh, that is what, uh, our 0:23:58.340 --> 0:24:03.660 culture is denying. And so, uh, you know, that is 0:24:03.660 --> 0:24:08.220 where we need to to dialogue. We need to, uh, 0:24:08.260 --> 0:24:12.780 explain to people that that there is, in fact, a, 0:24:13.020 --> 0:24:15.740 a God who created the universe and who who has 0:24:15.740 --> 0:24:19.500 a design, a design for, for male and female. And 0:24:19.500 --> 0:24:23.490 he also has, uh, he's holy. And so he has 0:24:23.490 --> 0:24:26.210 expectations how he wants his people to live. And so 0:24:26.210 --> 0:24:29.850 that is what we break down in our ethical dimension 0:24:29.850 --> 0:24:30.490 of our book. 0:24:31.730 --> 0:24:35.369 Absolutely fascinating. The book is called Biblical Theology a canonical 0:24:35.609 --> 0:24:39.130 thematic and ethical approach. I can't believe we're halfway through 0:24:39.130 --> 0:24:41.290 our conversation. We're going to get into the way in 0:24:41.290 --> 0:24:43.690 which the book is laid out. Remember, you could spend 0:24:43.690 --> 0:24:45.770 the rest of your life reading this book and you'd 0:24:45.770 --> 0:24:47.730 still want more. There's a lot here. We're going to 0:24:47.730 --> 0:24:59.090 continue with Doctor Köstenberger right after this. The Bible says 0:24:59.090 --> 0:25:01.410 the Word of God illuminates our walk through life. It's 0:25:01.410 --> 0:25:03.410 a lamp to our feet and a light to our path. 0:25:03.410 --> 0:25:05.930 Without it, we stumble and fall in the market with 0:25:05.930 --> 0:25:07.810 Janet Parshall is designed to help you look at the 0:25:07.810 --> 0:25:10.130 headlines of the day through the lens of Scripture. When 0:25:10.130 --> 0:25:12.170 you become a partial partner, you help to make this 0:25:12.170 --> 0:25:16.090 broadcast possible, and as a partial partner, you'll receive exclusive benefits. 0:25:16.090 --> 0:25:19.090 So why not become a partial partner today? Call 877 0:25:19.090 --> 0:25:22.430 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. 0:25:26.150 --> 0:25:28.709 I've discovered a new resource that is going to remain 0:25:28.710 --> 0:25:31.230 in the partial library, and I strongly recommend it be 0:25:31.230 --> 0:25:34.470 a part of your library as well. It's called biblical Theology, 0:25:34.710 --> 0:25:38.990 a canonical thematic and ethical approach. It is co-authored by 0:25:38.990 --> 0:25:42.910 Gregory Caswell and our guest, Doctor Andreas Köstenberger, who is 0:25:42.910 --> 0:25:46.629 the theologian in residence at Fellowship Raleigh. He's an internationally 0:25:46.630 --> 0:25:49.830 known Bible scholar, a prolific author of over 60 books, 0:25:49.830 --> 0:25:54.950 and the co-founder of Biblical Foundations at that website, Biblical Foundations. Org, 0:25:54.990 --> 0:25:57.590 which I have linked on our information page. There is 0:25:57.590 --> 0:26:00.830 a plethora of resources and a complete list of publications, 0:26:00.830 --> 0:26:03.429 and prolific is the operative word when it comes to 0:26:03.430 --> 0:26:06.550 the writings of Doctor Köstenberger. If you are just joining us, 0:26:06.550 --> 0:26:09.990 the warmest of welcomes. But I simply do want to 0:26:10.030 --> 0:26:12.510 encourage you to listen to the first half, because Doctor 0:26:12.510 --> 0:26:16.190 Köstenberger enters some rudimentary questions and does a flyover of 0:26:16.190 --> 0:26:19.980 this book. It is a look at all 66 books 0:26:19.980 --> 0:26:22.580 of the Bible. He breaks it into two parts the 0:26:22.580 --> 0:26:25.940 Old Testament and the New Testament, and as the subtitle suggests, 0:26:25.940 --> 0:26:28.500 he not only looks at the books that are inspired 0:26:28.500 --> 0:26:31.740 and in those 66 books, but also the major themes 0:26:31.740 --> 0:26:34.060 that are in the Bible and also the moral teachings 0:26:34.060 --> 0:26:36.619 we find in Scripture as well. Let me see if 0:26:36.619 --> 0:26:38.500 I can go to the fact that you broke the 0:26:38.500 --> 0:26:40.860 book up into part one and part two. And again, 0:26:41.180 --> 0:26:43.260 on one level, this is a rudimentary question. On the 0:26:43.260 --> 0:26:46.780 other hand, it's very emblematic of the deconstruction of faith 0:26:46.780 --> 0:26:49.140 that's going on out there, sadly, in the church capital 0:26:49.180 --> 0:26:52.540 C universal today. It's a foolish conversation, but it's emerged 0:26:52.540 --> 0:26:55.380 and it's been picked up. And ideas have consequences and 0:26:55.380 --> 0:26:58.700 foolish ideas have foolish consequences. The suggestion has been made 0:26:58.700 --> 0:27:01.900 that we should disconnect the old from the New Testament. 0:27:02.180 --> 0:27:04.180 Aside from the fact that you labeled it part one 0:27:04.180 --> 0:27:07.460 and part two. I see no disconnect whatsoever. In your 0:27:07.460 --> 0:27:10.540 book Biblical theology, there is a linkage, is there not 0:27:10.540 --> 0:27:14.020 between the two? Do we consider one to be old, 0:27:14.020 --> 0:27:16.540 one to be new, not just by the descriptor of 0:27:16.540 --> 0:27:20.000 the timeline, but its application to our life is one 0:27:20.040 --> 0:27:22.040 a picture of an angry God, the other a picture 0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:24.399 of a Savior with children on his lap. So we 0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:26.480 want to get rid of the God of Judgment and 0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:30.560 just go to the gentle, meek Jesus instead. In other words, 0:27:30.560 --> 0:27:33.439 there's a profundity in this question because, as I alluded 0:27:33.440 --> 0:27:35.679 to at the start of our conversation, this goes to 0:27:35.720 --> 0:27:38.439 the a la carte part of Scripture. Doctor Kastenberger I 0:27:38.440 --> 0:27:41.080 don't see anywhere in his word where I'm given permission 0:27:41.080 --> 0:27:43.480 to have a pick and choose approach to Scripture, whether 0:27:43.480 --> 0:27:45.520 that's the old and new or any passage I find 0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:47.760 anywhere in the Bible with which I find a problem 0:27:47.760 --> 0:27:50.400 in terms of its personal application. Talk to me about this. 0:27:51.920 --> 0:27:55.280 Absolutely, yes. We certainly don't think we should ditch the 0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:59.160 Old Testament. We wouldn't have 350 pages on the Old 0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:04.280 Testament in our book. And certainly my collaborator Greg, he 0:28:04.280 --> 0:28:08.760 would vehemently argue that the Old Testament, uh, is foundational. Uh, 0:28:08.760 --> 0:28:12.240 that is where we have, uh, you know, uh, major 0:28:12.240 --> 0:28:17.150 messianic prophecies, uh, that the, uh, the, the New Testament 0:28:17.150 --> 0:28:20.590 Gospels pick up on. And, you know, I invite the 0:28:20.590 --> 0:28:23.950 readers especially. We have an entire chapter on the New 0:28:23.950 --> 0:28:27.430 Testament use of the Old Testament. Uh, chapter seven, where 0:28:27.430 --> 0:28:30.470 we draw the connection between the two. And then, uh, 0:28:30.470 --> 0:28:33.230 the section on the New Testament shows how all four 0:28:33.230 --> 0:28:41.150 Gospels are just deeply and thoroughly grounded in Old Testament prediction, typology, symbolism, 0:28:41.670 --> 0:28:45.630 and so forth. So obviously, you know, people need to really, uh, 0:28:45.750 --> 0:28:48.910 get the book in the short time we have, we 0:28:48.910 --> 0:28:52.190 can't fully unpack the relationship between The Testaments. But those 0:28:52.190 --> 0:28:55.990 are all very important questions for biblical theology to address. 0:28:56.030 --> 0:28:58.990 And so you asked exactly the right question. And we're 0:28:58.990 --> 0:29:00.630 trying to do that in the book. 0:29:01.230 --> 0:29:04.510 Yeah. I'm so glad that you again devoted an entire 0:29:04.510 --> 0:29:07.830 chapter to this. And again, there's so much here. It's 0:29:07.830 --> 0:29:10.550 like it's like you and I having one hour and 0:29:10.550 --> 0:29:13.150 trying to digest a semester's class, and we wouldn't even, 0:29:13.350 --> 0:29:15.050 we wouldn't be able to do it in a semester. 0:29:15.090 --> 0:29:17.010 It'd be a year long class. So I want my 0:29:17.010 --> 0:29:19.970 friends to understand the depth and the width and the 0:29:20.210 --> 0:29:24.170 absolute richness in this new book, biblical theology. I'm giving 0:29:24.170 --> 0:29:26.570 you a flyover. I want to get you excited about 0:29:26.570 --> 0:29:27.890 this book. I want you to go out and get 0:29:27.890 --> 0:29:30.690 your own. And when you see this treasure of a book, 0:29:30.690 --> 0:29:33.010 you're going to understand that there's no way to summarize 0:29:33.010 --> 0:29:35.130 in an hour what's in this book, any more than 0:29:35.170 --> 0:29:37.670 Doctor Köstenberger could summarize what's in the Bible in one 0:29:37.670 --> 0:29:39.730 hour as well. So I'm lingering at some of these 0:29:39.730 --> 0:29:42.650 spots on purpose, so that you could hear Doctor Köstenberger 0:29:43.210 --> 0:29:46.050 and understand the continuity of Scripture here, which is, I think, 0:29:46.050 --> 0:29:48.450 not to be missed. It's one of the one of 0:29:48.450 --> 0:29:50.530 the blessings of the Word of God. So let me 0:29:50.530 --> 0:29:52.610 go back to the idea of the linkage between the two, 0:29:52.650 --> 0:29:54.290 if it weren't important. And by the way, I love 0:29:54.290 --> 0:29:56.489 the study of types in Scripture, I just those are 0:29:56.490 --> 0:29:58.890 the neon signs that God uses to tell us and 0:29:58.890 --> 0:30:00.530 tell us and tell us again. So we can't say 0:30:00.530 --> 0:30:04.210 we ain't been told. That's profound theology, according to Janet Parshall. 0:30:04.250 --> 0:30:07.410 So going back to this idea of the linkage between 0:30:07.410 --> 0:30:10.170 the two, if the Old Testament weren't significant, why would 0:30:10.170 --> 0:30:11.810 Jesus reference it so much? 0:30:14.270 --> 0:30:17.390 Absolutely. You're exactly right. You have to look no further 0:30:17.390 --> 0:30:21.310 than Jesus and the four evangelists as well. Um, and 0:30:21.310 --> 0:30:22.830 I think you know what we do in the book. 0:30:22.830 --> 0:30:26.150 Greg and I both we have sections where, uh, Greg 0:30:26.190 --> 0:30:28.990 talks about major themes in the Old Testament, and then 0:30:28.990 --> 0:30:31.790 I talk about major themes in the New Testament, and 0:30:31.790 --> 0:30:34.870 then we synthesize that in terms of the storyline of 0:30:34.870 --> 0:30:37.590 Scripture and the major biblical themes. So we want to 0:30:37.590 --> 0:30:41.190 make sure we don't just, uh, you know, submerge the 0:30:41.190 --> 0:30:43.510 Old Testament in the new, but we want to do 0:30:43.550 --> 0:30:47.590 justice to the Old Testament as a very important book 0:30:47.590 --> 0:30:50.750 in its own right, with its own distinctive themes and 0:30:50.750 --> 0:30:54.310 its own contribution to the library of Scripture. 0:30:54.870 --> 0:30:58.150 Yes. Amen to that. So early on in my marriage, 0:30:58.150 --> 0:30:59.990 I knew that I had married the right fella. When 0:30:59.990 --> 0:31:02.790 our first Christmas together, he asked for his Christmas present 0:31:02.790 --> 0:31:06.830 to be Schaefer's Systematic Theology, which is a multi-volume series, 0:31:06.830 --> 0:31:08.990 by the way, and he went through the entire thing 0:31:09.030 --> 0:31:11.350 at the beginning of the book. You talk about using 0:31:11.350 --> 0:31:16.100 a paradigm of exegesis to biblical theology, to systematic theology. 0:31:16.140 --> 0:31:20.140 What is the distinctive between biblical theology and systematic theology? 0:31:22.140 --> 0:31:24.700 Great question. And I think that distinction is very important. 0:31:24.700 --> 0:31:27.860 So biblical theology is essentially inductive meaning we come to 0:31:27.900 --> 0:31:32.220 it with no theological system as such. And as much 0:31:32.220 --> 0:31:37.540 as possible, we're opening ourselves up to discovering in Scripture 0:31:37.740 --> 0:31:41.300 what the authors themselves wanted to communicate. And so we 0:31:41.300 --> 0:31:45.460 look at the historical setting, we look at the literary context, 0:31:45.460 --> 0:31:48.060 and we look at the theological message is what I 0:31:48.100 --> 0:31:52.700 call a triadic hermeneutic of history, literature and theology. And so, 0:31:52.820 --> 0:31:55.300 as much as possible, we make some sort of a 0:31:55.340 --> 0:31:58.900 cumulative case that that we look at each book, book 0:31:58.900 --> 0:32:01.420 by book in its own right. And only after we've 0:32:01.420 --> 0:32:04.660 done that, we try to synthesize the biblical message on 0:32:04.660 --> 0:32:09.060 a thematic level, on an ethical level, and ultimately on 0:32:09.060 --> 0:32:12.000 a storyline of scripture level. So that is why the 0:32:12.040 --> 0:32:14.120 book is so long. Because imagine if you have to 0:32:14.120 --> 0:32:16.560 do that for all 66 books of Scripture. 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:20.000 Mhm. Mhm. Absolutely. Wow. So let me go back to 0:32:20.040 --> 0:32:22.360 the Gospels because you talk about you've talked about that 0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:26.120 before and you broke down. In fact one entire chapter 0:32:26.120 --> 0:32:29.360 in the book, Biblical Theology is entitled The Gospels. When 0:32:29.360 --> 0:32:31.240 you go to the New Testament. I thought that was 0:32:31.440 --> 0:32:33.959 this was interesting. You talk about the order of the 0:32:33.960 --> 0:32:36.760 books in the canon. In the New Testament. You talk 0:32:36.800 --> 0:32:39.640 about the relationship between the Testaments. We just touched on that. 0:32:39.640 --> 0:32:42.680 Then you delineate the Gospels, the book of Acts, the 0:32:42.680 --> 0:32:46.360 letters of Paul, the general epistles, and the apocalypse, which 0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:49.920 I found absolutely logical and fascinating that it would be 0:32:49.920 --> 0:32:52.719 in that order if I were if I just landed 0:32:52.720 --> 0:32:56.080 here from another planet. And I said, what are these gospels? 0:32:56.080 --> 0:32:58.520 Why do they have that name? And why these four 0:32:58.520 --> 0:33:01.800 books in particular? Why are they so interconnected and so linked? 0:33:01.800 --> 0:33:02.640 What would you say? 0:33:05.120 --> 0:33:08.520 Yeah, I think that's a great biblical theological way to 0:33:08.710 --> 0:33:11.230 look at the New Testament, to look at the major 0:33:11.230 --> 0:33:13.750 building blocks. And so if you look at it that way, 0:33:13.950 --> 0:33:17.790 the four gospels lay the foundation, right? They are centered 0:33:17.790 --> 0:33:20.670 on one person, the Lord Jesus Christ, who is really 0:33:20.670 --> 0:33:23.790 also the center of the entire Bible. Uh, the Old 0:33:23.830 --> 0:33:26.990 Testament builds up to Jesus and then the the rest 0:33:26.990 --> 0:33:30.910 of the New Testament explicates what salvation in Christ means 0:33:30.910 --> 0:33:33.870 practically for us as Christians. You know, for how we 0:33:33.870 --> 0:33:37.710 ought to live. And so the Gospels are properly, uh, 0:33:37.710 --> 0:33:40.390 at the heart of Scripture and at the beginning of 0:33:40.390 --> 0:33:43.990 the New Testament, and they exhibit the new covenant that 0:33:43.990 --> 0:33:49.070 Jesus established with the 12, the, uh, the representatives of 0:33:49.070 --> 0:33:51.990 the church. And then after that you have the book 0:33:51.990 --> 0:33:55.950 of acts, which is essentially the narrative of how the 0:33:55.950 --> 0:34:02.390 apostles preached the resurrected Christ, the risen Jesus. And thousands 0:34:02.390 --> 0:34:07.850 of people responded and converted. And so early Christianity just 0:34:07.850 --> 0:34:10.330 grew by leaps and bounds. And then you have the letters. 0:34:10.330 --> 0:34:15.410 The letters basically apply the gospel message to ordinary, everyday Christians. 0:34:15.450 --> 0:34:19.450 And finally you have the the second coming that's, uh, 0:34:20.250 --> 0:34:24.210 foretold in revelation, in the apocalypse. And so you have 0:34:24.210 --> 0:34:28.210 the New Testament, like a beautiful rainbow, uh, beginning with 0:34:28.210 --> 0:34:31.650 the first coming and ending with the second coming of Jesus. 0:34:31.690 --> 0:34:34.730 And so even when you look at the whole Bible, 0:34:34.730 --> 0:34:39.890 Genesis and Revelation are just perfectly corresponding bookends, you know, 0:34:39.930 --> 0:34:43.450 from creation to new creation and from the garden to 0:34:43.489 --> 0:34:46.810 the new Jerusalem. And so, uh, I commend to people 0:34:46.850 --> 0:34:51.489 both biblical theology and looking at, at the Bible more synthetically, 0:34:51.530 --> 0:34:55.770 you know, how the different parts all fit perfectly within 0:34:55.770 --> 0:34:58.850 the whole library of the 66 books of Scripture. 0:34:59.690 --> 0:35:02.129 Wow. Hearkening back to the question I asked you before 0:35:02.130 --> 0:35:06.640 about the linkage between the Testaments, this raises another interesting question. 0:35:06.640 --> 0:35:08.239 And if you look at some of the data and 0:35:08.239 --> 0:35:11.440 I'm fascinated by data, maybe it's because I'm here in Washington, 0:35:11.440 --> 0:35:14.200 but it's also revelatory, I think sometimes of the condition 0:35:14.200 --> 0:35:16.319 of the church. So if you look at some of 0:35:16.320 --> 0:35:19.160 the research, for example, that Barnes has done, there are 0:35:19.200 --> 0:35:22.040 a growing number of Christians who don't think that Jesus 0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:25.440 was in the beginning, where the word was and the 0:35:25.440 --> 0:35:28.560 word was with God, that somehow he is a created 0:35:28.600 --> 0:35:31.640 being after the fact. If we disconnect the old and 0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:34.560 the New Testament, are we not just cutting out the 0:35:34.560 --> 0:35:37.680 prophecy and the foretelling and the types and the archetypes? 0:35:37.680 --> 0:35:41.319 But are we not also negating the fact that the 0:35:41.320 --> 0:35:44.880 triune nature of God is manifest early on in Scripture, 0:35:44.880 --> 0:35:47.799 and Jesus is present from the beginning, all the way 0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:48.760 through to the end? 0:35:50.960 --> 0:35:55.640 Absolutely. It's really a mistake to, in my Old Testament collaborator, 0:35:56.000 --> 0:35:59.600 really helped me understand that even better. The idea that 0:35:59.600 --> 0:36:02.480 God in the Old Testament is the Triune God. It 0:36:02.480 --> 0:36:05.299 is not just God the got the father. And so 0:36:05.300 --> 0:36:07.860 you're exactly right. You know, in the Gospel of John 0:36:07.860 --> 0:36:11.100 makes that clear than probably any other book in Scripture 0:36:11.100 --> 0:36:15.700 that Jesus preexisted with God at the very beginning already 0:36:15.739 --> 0:36:19.100 at creation. And it is through Jesus, the word that 0:36:19.100 --> 0:36:20.419 everything was created. 0:36:21.380 --> 0:36:24.779 Amen and amen. The book is called Biblical Theology. It 0:36:24.780 --> 0:36:28.219 is an absolutely fabulous, must have resource for your own 0:36:28.219 --> 0:36:32.100 personal study. Pastors obviously overflowing with richness for you as well. 0:36:32.300 --> 0:36:35.299 But it's also for the individual student who is serious 0:36:35.300 --> 0:36:37.940 about Scripture. And I just poked my head outside my 0:36:37.940 --> 0:36:40.180 front door today. I think the time to get serious 0:36:40.180 --> 0:36:43.860 about Scripture is now. Let's get started back after this. 0:36:57.020 --> 0:36:59.739 We're talking about a brand new resource that should be 0:36:59.739 --> 0:37:01.660 right there in your desks. When you're in your private 0:37:01.700 --> 0:37:04.690 time in the word, it's called biblical theology. A canonical 0:37:04.690 --> 0:37:07.890 thematic and ethical approach. It is co-authored by our guest, 0:37:07.890 --> 0:37:12.089 Doctor Andreas Köstenberger, who is a world renowned theologian and 0:37:12.090 --> 0:37:14.290 scholar in the Bible. By the way, it's clearly written. 0:37:14.290 --> 0:37:17.210 It's an analysis of all 66 books of the Bible. 0:37:17.370 --> 0:37:21.250 There's an emphasis on the coherent, unified framework of Scripture. 0:37:21.450 --> 0:37:25.530 It helps you and me thoughtfully interpret the scriptures. And 0:37:25.530 --> 0:37:28.850 it's ideal for, as I said before, not just academicians, 0:37:28.850 --> 0:37:30.770 if you want to go that route, but pastors and 0:37:30.770 --> 0:37:33.170 people like, I hope you and me who are serious 0:37:33.170 --> 0:37:36.210 students of the word as well. So at the end 0:37:36.210 --> 0:37:38.890 of the book, you call it conclusion appropriately, but you 0:37:38.890 --> 0:37:42.569 use two very trendy words right now, and I'd love 0:37:42.570 --> 0:37:44.810 for you to talk about it in its application to 0:37:44.810 --> 0:37:49.089 a conversation about biblical theology. You talk about unity and 0:37:49.090 --> 0:37:54.170 diversity in biblical theology. Unity and diversity. Break that down 0:37:54.170 --> 0:37:56.410 for our friends. I thought this was a fascinating chapter. 0:37:57.930 --> 0:38:01.350 Yes. You know, this has been a long standing debate 0:38:01.469 --> 0:38:05.710 in biblical theological circles how you navigate the tension between 0:38:05.710 --> 0:38:09.230 the two. Because, of course, as, uh, people with a 0:38:09.230 --> 0:38:12.390 high view of Scripture, we naturally believe that Scripture is 0:38:12.390 --> 0:38:16.110 unified and it is unified because God is one and 0:38:16.110 --> 0:38:19.670 God is unified. He's not contradictory. And so the very 0:38:19.670 --> 0:38:24.109 fact that God inspired Scripture already tells us that, uh, 0:38:24.110 --> 0:38:27.270 in the end, Scripture will be unified. It will not be, 0:38:27.310 --> 0:38:29.470 you know, it will not be found to contradict itself. 0:38:29.469 --> 0:38:31.989 But at the same time, uh, you look at, as 0:38:31.989 --> 0:38:34.750 I mentioned, the four gospels, for example, or, you know, 0:38:34.790 --> 0:38:38.670 Kings and Chronicles or, uh, the letters in the New Testament. 0:38:38.670 --> 0:38:40.670 And you see, there's a certain amount of diversity. We 0:38:40.670 --> 0:38:43.430 talked about that at the beginning of the interview, the 0:38:43.430 --> 0:38:46.470 fact that that the 12 apostles each had their own 0:38:46.830 --> 0:38:51.950 personalities and their own personal style. And so I think, uh, 0:38:52.830 --> 0:38:55.630 you know, I've heard it said that that, uh, the 0:38:55.750 --> 0:38:59.390 measure of a of a good biblical theology is the 0:38:59.530 --> 0:39:03.890 way it is able to handle legitimate diversity in Scripture, 0:39:03.890 --> 0:39:07.930 rather than just kind of like streamlining or flattening it. Uh, 0:39:07.930 --> 0:39:11.490 just in a legitimate desire to to emphasize the unity 0:39:11.489 --> 0:39:15.450 of Scripture. You you don't do justice to its diversity. 0:39:15.489 --> 0:39:19.210 So we're trying to to navigate that tension and to 0:39:19.210 --> 0:39:22.529 do justice to both the unity and the diversity of Scripture. 0:39:23.050 --> 0:39:25.770 Yeah. And you do an excellent job. So let me 0:39:25.770 --> 0:39:27.649 go back to what you said before about how you 0:39:27.650 --> 0:39:31.129 emphasize the love of God. Um, and I'm so glad 0:39:31.130 --> 0:39:33.129 that you do, because I don't want to study this 0:39:33.130 --> 0:39:36.009 as an academician. I'm drawn to the one who loved 0:39:36.010 --> 0:39:38.490 me so much, he gave his life for me. I 0:39:38.530 --> 0:39:40.890 was guilty as charged. The wages of sin is death. 0:39:40.930 --> 0:39:43.489 A penalty had to be paid. And Jesus steps in 0:39:43.530 --> 0:39:45.730 as the great mediator between me and God and says, 0:39:45.730 --> 0:39:48.170 I'll pay that price for you. So I'm drawn out 0:39:48.170 --> 0:39:53.569 of this incomprehensible message of the ultimate sacrifice. Go to 0:39:53.610 --> 0:39:56.129 the end of the book with the apocalypse, because there 0:39:56.130 --> 0:39:57.969 are a lot of believers to this day who look 0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:00.960 at this book and they let Hollywood be the theologian here. 0:40:00.960 --> 0:40:04.480 They let the movies teach them the theology. Why, in 0:40:04.480 --> 0:40:07.840 your perspective of the New Testament is this whole book 0:40:07.840 --> 0:40:11.759 that is the stuff of, um, well, wild fantasies for 0:40:11.760 --> 0:40:15.880 some people and outright fear for others. Why do you 0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:18.880 think God wanted this part of the book included? He 0:40:18.920 --> 0:40:21.680 he is the author. Everything is there for our instruction 0:40:21.680 --> 0:40:24.480 and our edification. Why the book of revelation? 0:40:26.800 --> 0:40:32.120 Yes, well, it is from a canonical standpoint. We need 0:40:32.120 --> 0:40:36.799 that book for proper closure of the entire canon. If 0:40:36.800 --> 0:40:40.480 we just imagine if we didn't have revelation, we wouldn't 0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:44.880 know how the story ends. We wouldn't have a vision of, 0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:49.040 of Jesus return of of of the eternal state, heaven. 0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:54.320 We wouldn't even have a record of the judgment of 0:40:54.320 --> 0:41:00.140 of of Satan and his demons. Uh, we wouldn't, uh, have, uh, 0:41:00.780 --> 0:41:05.700 proper closure. And so, uh, looking at the book from 0:41:05.739 --> 0:41:09.700 a biblical theology standpoint, where you look at the big picture, 0:41:09.940 --> 0:41:11.700 I think it's clear to see that the book is 0:41:11.700 --> 0:41:15.660 not primarily about those, you know, uh, bizarre end time 0:41:15.660 --> 0:41:19.180 scenarios or, you know, the, uh, some of those fine 0:41:19.219 --> 0:41:22.899 points that we often, uh, you know, entire denominations are 0:41:22.900 --> 0:41:27.100 divided over. You know, it is essentially about, uh, the, 0:41:27.100 --> 0:41:30.419 the love of God that that sent Jesus to redeem 0:41:30.860 --> 0:41:34.219 humanity and, and those who care to believe in Jesus. 0:41:34.219 --> 0:41:38.700 And and in the end, uh, there's consequences. There's judgment. 0:41:38.700 --> 0:41:41.100 We're all accountable to God. That's actually what brought me 0:41:41.100 --> 0:41:43.299 to the Lord, to be convinced that I would have 0:41:43.300 --> 0:41:45.100 to give an account to God one day for the 0:41:45.100 --> 0:41:47.700 life I lived. And I knew I couldn't do it, uh, 0:41:47.700 --> 0:41:50.180 in my own strength. And so that that that drew 0:41:50.219 --> 0:41:52.700 me to Jesus. And and that's how I trusted him. 0:41:53.540 --> 0:41:55.969 Wow. Can I linger here? Because that's so interesting. I 0:41:56.010 --> 0:41:58.890 just heard a pastor say yesterday that again, we are 0:41:58.890 --> 0:42:01.450 drawn to the love of God, but we do ourselves 0:42:01.450 --> 0:42:05.169 a disservice, and perhaps we fail to live out our 0:42:05.170 --> 0:42:08.089 salvation with fear and trembling. If we ignore the fact 0:42:08.090 --> 0:42:10.890 that he's also a holy judge. Let me just linger 0:42:10.890 --> 0:42:12.890 on that for a moment, because that might be a 0:42:12.930 --> 0:42:15.009 day to day question that a lot of people struggle with, 0:42:15.010 --> 0:42:17.370 and it keeps them from diving deep into the Word 0:42:17.370 --> 0:42:20.810 of God. So how can God be both a loving father, 0:42:20.810 --> 0:42:23.050 loving us so much that he did send his Son? 0:42:23.050 --> 0:42:25.410 But also, how can he be a holy judge? Again, 0:42:25.410 --> 0:42:27.370 we've used the phrase twice before, but I think it's 0:42:27.410 --> 0:42:30.049 apt in this. It's an it's not an either or. 0:42:30.090 --> 0:42:32.290 It's a both end. How does that work? 0:42:34.890 --> 0:42:36.810 Well, my wife and I talk about that all the 0:42:36.810 --> 0:42:40.130 time because she's a forthcoming book also in biblical theology 0:42:40.170 --> 0:42:45.250 on sanctification. And so she is reminding me of the 0:42:45.250 --> 0:42:49.370 holiness of God, uh, all the time, and also on 0:42:49.370 --> 0:42:52.810 the practical need for me to be a holy husband. 0:42:52.850 --> 0:42:56.270 And you know, that is a daily challenge to allow 0:42:56.270 --> 0:42:59.230 the Holy Spirit to to help me in that area. 0:42:59.230 --> 0:43:02.110 But I think Scripture tells us that God is both, 0:43:02.110 --> 0:43:04.830 as you said to be. He's he's holy, he's loving, 0:43:04.830 --> 0:43:07.750 he's also righteous. And I think the resolution comes in 0:43:07.790 --> 0:43:10.710 that he himself paid the penalty for our sin in 0:43:10.710 --> 0:43:13.509 the Lord Jesus Christ. Uh, one of my favorite verses 0:43:13.510 --> 0:43:17.230 in Romans chapter three. And, you know, starting in verse 21, 0:43:17.350 --> 0:43:20.830 it says, God is both just and the justifier of 0:43:20.830 --> 0:43:24.710 those who believe in Jesus. Isn't that a just a tremendous, 0:43:24.989 --> 0:43:30.070 wonderful verse that the judge himself came down in form 0:43:30.070 --> 0:43:33.390 of his son and paid the penalty for sin himself? 0:43:33.910 --> 0:43:37.390 Yes. How often does a judge step in and pay 0:43:37.390 --> 0:43:39.549 the penalty for the criminal in front of him? Wow, 0:43:39.550 --> 0:43:41.950 that's so amazing. One last question, if I may, in 0:43:41.950 --> 0:43:43.870 an hour that's gone far too quickly. This is a 0:43:43.870 --> 0:43:46.069 seminal work. What is it like for you as a 0:43:46.070 --> 0:43:48.550 scholar and an author when you finally put the last 0:43:48.550 --> 0:43:51.830 word on and it's now bound, what do you think? Personally, 0:43:51.900 --> 0:43:53.779 when you look at a work like this, a sense 0:43:53.780 --> 0:43:55.779 of accomplishment? Or do you think, oh, if I had 0:43:55.780 --> 0:43:57.700 only included this, that and the other thing? 0:43:59.739 --> 0:44:01.819 Well, I think, Janet, thanks for asking. For me, this 0:44:01.820 --> 0:44:05.420 is a very personal project. It culminates 30 years of 0:44:05.420 --> 0:44:09.580 teaching and writing and research, and I'm grateful for my collaborator, 0:44:09.940 --> 0:44:12.180 for Greg as well, to partner with me. I couldn't 0:44:12.180 --> 0:44:15.379 have done it myself. But together, I think, you know, 0:44:15.420 --> 0:44:19.259 we're both, uh, hoping that this will be helpful resource, 0:44:19.260 --> 0:44:22.940 because biblical theology is a great way to study scripture, 0:44:22.980 --> 0:44:25.420 and I certainly invite all our listeners to try it 0:44:25.420 --> 0:44:29.540 for themselves and to study the Bible. Uh, biblically. Theologically. 0:44:30.100 --> 0:44:32.859 Yeah. Amen. And may I echo that the book, again, 0:44:32.900 --> 0:44:37.620 is called Biblical Theology a canonical thematic and ethical approach. 0:44:37.940 --> 0:44:39.460 Let's be a part of that idea that we want 0:44:39.500 --> 0:44:41.460 a higher view of Scripture, and we're going to be 0:44:41.460 --> 0:44:45.260 a serious student of Scripture, because a great and loving 0:44:45.260 --> 0:44:48.860 God ended for our benefit and our edification. Thank you, 0:44:48.900 --> 0:44:50.780 Doctor Köstenberger. See you next time, friends.