S1: Hiding inside. Every man is a little boy. He can
S1: be healthy.
S2: And strong, or he can be afraid, angry and broken.
S2: He's never really gotten over the wounds of his childhood.
S2: Is there a way to break the cycle of pain?
S2: The cycle of rage? Is there a way to go from.
S1: Broken boy to mended man?
S3: Maybe your parents were nice like mine. And so the
S3: idea of forgiving them seems a little easier. But maybe
S3: they were just mean people. Maybe they were toxic. But
S3: the point is, is that healing is definitely possible. Men
S3: are being healed.
S4: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S4: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today.
S4: Author of man in the mirror, Doctor Patrick Morley describes
S4: his healing journey from broken boy to mended man, and
S4: he'll give a positive plan for you or a man
S4: you know on how to heal from childhood wounds.
S5: You can find our featured resource at the website. Building relationships.us.
S5: It's the book by Doctor Morley titled From Broken Boy
S5: to Mended Man A Positive plan to heal your childhood
S5: wounds and break the cycle. Just go to building. relationships.us
S5: and it looks like I know the fella who wrote
S5: the foreword to this book. Gary, why do you think
S5: this is an important topic for such a time as this?
S6: Well, you know, Chris, uh, there are a lot of
S6: wounded men out there. I'm just going to read you
S6: the first paragraph in this foreword that I wrote, because
S6: I really feel this is true. I say, through my
S6: 40 years of counseling men who have experienced childhood wounds,
S6: I've never read a book that I've found more helpful
S6: for those men, then the book you hold in your hands.
S6: It is practical, understandable and doable. I think because it's
S6: written by a man who has walked the road. Uh,
S6: so I'm excited to have Doctor Morley with us today,
S6: because I think this is a topic that's gravely needed
S6: in our society today.
S5: Well, let's meet him. And we promised him we're going
S5: to call him Pat. But I'll say it one more time.
S5: Doctor Patrick Morley is founder of man in the mirror,
S5: a global ministry impacting thousands of churches, millions of men.
S5: Motivated by his own search for meaning and purpose. He
S5: started a Bible study with a handful of guys in 1986.
S5: And that study is still going. It now reaches men
S5: around the world every week. He's written some 23 books,
S5: including The Man in the mirror, which was named one
S5: of the 100 most influential Christian books of the 20th century,
S5: and our featured resource today. As I said at Building Relationships,
S5: US is from broken boy to men. Did man just
S5: go to building relationships? Us?
S6: Well, Doctor Morley, welcome to. Building relationships.
S3: Well, Doctor Chapman, thank. You for having me. It's such
S3: an honor. I, uh, I just cannot get over the
S3: fact that I'm able to actually be on your program. Uh,
S3: you've just been a hero of mine forever. And so
S3: thank you again for the gracious words of that foreword to.
S3: In fact, uh, after you read it, I was thinking, well,
S3: we could wrap it up right now.
S6: Well, I've given my opinion when the when the program
S6: is over, they're going to have their own opinion. Okay.
S3: True enough, true enough.
S6: As we start, uh, let's talk this a little bit
S6: about the global impact of the man in the mirror
S6: and how that all got started. Give us a little
S6: background on that and your perception of how God has
S6: used that.
S3: Well, it's interesting because my background is business. I was
S3: a real estate developer. My first life philosophy was that
S3: money will solve my problems and success will make me happy.
S3: I quit high school in the middle of my senior year,
S3: so there were some problems at home. Nice. Very nice parents,
S3: but very passive and permissive. And so, um. I was
S3: a broken boy. I didn't understand any of that at
S3: the time. I really just felt like I, and I,
S3: pretty much from about 8 or 9 years old, had
S3: the sense of feeling like I was on my own
S3: to figure out life. And I became very successful in business.
S3: You know, broken boys tend to become especially irresponsible, or
S3: they become the responsible son, uh, depending on whether they
S3: want to prove that their parents were right or wrong
S3: about them. And so I became the responsible son, became
S3: quite successful. And I was just sitting around one day
S3: I said, wow, it's just got to be more to
S3: life than this. It just it just has to be.
S3: And so that's when I started the Bible study that
S3: Chris referenced and started teaching men about the problems that
S3: we face. And it wasn't until quite some time later, though,
S3: that I actually had the revelation, the epiphany that the
S3: reason that I was struggling so much personally, with all
S3: the demons that came in the middle of the night,
S3: was because of childhood wounds that had never really been
S3: properly processed.
S6: Well, no question about it. That book, man in the mirror,
S6: tremendously helpful to a lot of people. And I think
S6: this book is going to be the same. You say
S6: there's an epidemic of lonely, hurting men carrying unresolved pain.
S6: How do you know that's true? And what does that
S6: look like today?
S3: Well, Gary, my favorite thing to do, uh, you know,
S3: we write books, we teach churches. You know, we do
S3: all these different things. But my number one favorite thing
S3: to do is to meet with men one on one.
S3: And I've literally met with thousands of men one on
S3: one to hear their stories. And, you know, for a
S3: period of, you know, 40 years meeting with 2 or
S3: 3 guys a week like that, it adds up. And
S3: so when men try to put into words what they
S3: feel like is holding them back, what's keeping them from
S3: feeling fully alive? And if they're a believer, fully alive
S3: in Jesus, they will inevitably mention one or more seven things.
S3: You know, I just feel like I'm in this alone.
S3: I don't feel like God cares about me personally. Not really.
S3: My life doesn't feel like it has a purpose. It
S3: feels random. I have these destructive behaviors. They keep dragging
S3: me back down. My soul feels dry. My most important relationships,
S3: they're not healthy. And then finally, I just don't feel
S3: like I'm doing anything that's going to make a difference
S3: and leave the world a better place. I kind of
S3: my organizing paradigm is, is that what do men want
S3: that they need, that I have to offer? And so when,
S3: since I am a broken boy, and since I have
S3: a theological education and a, you know, doctorate degree and
S3: all these different things, and I've studied this and I've
S3: been through it personally, I've just really felt a calling
S3: to go ahead and put this all out there, and
S3: it's not the normal thing that someone would do, but
S3: I just felt like called by God that it was
S3: something I was supposed to do.
S6: Now, Pat, this is your 23rd book, but it took
S6: you six years before deciding to move ahead and write it.
S6: What took so long?
S3: Well, net net, my mom and dad are were really
S3: nice people, and I believe that they wanted to do
S3: the right things, but they were never trained, equipped or
S3: discipled to be godly parents. My dad was abandoned when
S3: he was two years of age, and so he never
S3: felt the scratch of his father's whiskers. He never heard
S3: a father reading him a bedtime story. He never tossed
S3: a ball in the backyard. He never had his hair tussled,
S3: never wrestled on the living room floor with his dad,
S3: never heard a truck door shut in the driveway at
S3: the end of a day, signaling that his dad was
S3: about to re-enter the family orbit. And so basically, what
S3: it meant to be a man, a husband and a
S3: father was unexampled to him. And so he was left
S3: to guess at how to be a dad to me
S3: and a husband to my mom. And, and so net
S3: of all that is that he did the best he could,
S3: but there was this intergenerational dysfunction that got transmitted to him.
S3: He never was able to do anything about that. So
S3: I didn't want to. So the answer to the question
S3: is I and my mom and dad and I, we
S3: did reconcile. And and for the last half, uh, for
S3: the second half of my life and the last part
S3: of their life, we had a very loving and hugging,
S3: affectionate relationship that we did not have for the first
S3: 35 years of my life. So I didn't want to
S3: throw them under the bus, and it just took me
S3: six years to figure to, to to noodle around to
S3: figure out how I could honor them, but yet still
S3: tell the true story. And so I finally got it.
S3: Got it all sorted out in my head. But it
S3: took like six years to do that. And, uh, yeah,
S3: that's the answer to the question.
S6: I can understand that. Yeah, yeah. You don't want to
S6: put them down, and yet you want to be honest.
S6: And when did you personally begin to realize that your
S6: childhood wounds and how they had impacted you?
S3: Well, there are kind of two answers to that question. Um,
S3: I when I left home, I washed my hands and
S3: my parents. I joined the Army. And, um, if it
S3: wasn't for my wife, I probably would have had no
S3: contact at all. But I became a follower of Jesus
S3: through the influence of my wife. At the age of 24,
S3: when I was 25 years of age, my parents invited
S3: us to come out to their home for dinner. My
S3: brother had been off at war. The family had not
S3: been together for several years. It was Thanksgiving and so
S3: my mom and dad were there. My three younger brothers,
S3: my new wife and myself. And we were that family
S3: that would say grace, but we would say, God is good,
S3: God is great, and we thank you for this food. Amen.
S3: As quickly as we could, you know, and so on
S3: this particular day, though, my dad said, I'd like to
S3: pray today. And so we bowed our heads and he said, Lord,
S3: mom and I would just like to say thank you.
S3: And then he started blubbering and he excused himself and
S3: went into the master bedroom. I went in after him.
S3: I said, dad, dad, are you all right? What's the matter?
S3: He said, no, I'm okay. I just need a minute.
S3: And I said, well, what's going on? He said, well,
S3: it's just that your mother and I never thought that
S3: we would ever see our four boys together in the
S3: same room again. And, uh, something softened in me that day.
S3: And because I was a new Christian and starting to grow,
S3: I just chose to unilaterally forgive my mother and father
S3: that day for everything that had gone before. And it
S3: was real. Now, I didn't have the I didn't know
S3: what I was doing okay at the time, but that
S3: began did begin a process that took me another 28
S3: years to come, full circle. And in fact, that's why
S3: I wanted to write the book, because I do now
S3: know that a man can do in a few months
S3: what took me several decades to do, if he will
S3: apply himself and actually do this book, not just read
S3: the book, but actually do the book.
S6: Well, Pat, as you've described already, you were one of
S6: those hurting men. Do you really think it's possible for
S6: men to go from broken to mended? Which is really
S6: kind of the theme of the book.
S3: Yes. And the answer is absolutely yes. In fact, you know,
S3: the book's only been out a little while, so it's September,
S3: but it's came out in March, so not that long.
S3: But I'm getting I'm getting correspondence like every single day
S3: from from men. I got a text last night from
S3: a guy who had mentioned, uh, the, the book to
S3: to a man. He got it. He's a pastor. He
S3: got it. He he was reading the book on an airplane,
S3: and he was crying because he was identifying with everything
S3: that was being said. He had to stop reading the
S3: book on the airplane and finished it when he got home.
S3: And it's had a tremendous impact because he's, for the
S3: first time able to understand all of these emotions or
S3: where these emotions are coming from that have always been inexplicable.
S3: And that was my case, too, as a as a
S3: broken boy. I talk about nine characteristics of broken boys
S3: in the book. Just the first one is you have
S3: a hard time believing that people really care about you.
S3: And so if you have experienced a sense of abandonment,
S3: or if your parents were always angry and demanding, or
S3: if they were overly permissive or even maybe enabling parents,
S3: then there's a good chance that you struggle with trusting
S3: people or a sense of feeling abandoned. That's certainly true
S3: of me. Another characteristic is you are easily angered. I
S3: never lost my temper. Not one time did I ever
S3: lose my temper at the office. But what I would do.
S3: Because there the stakes are so high, you know, in
S3: terms of your prestige, getting what you want done in
S3: terms of projects or sales and so forth, or even
S3: job security itself could be at risk. So I would
S3: bottle it up and bring it home, and then some
S3: little thing would set me off and boom. Just like that, uh,
S3: hair trigger. And but I had no idea what was
S3: going on, you see? Yeah. And so, uh, when this
S3: really got sorted out is when my mother died at
S3: the age of 53, and I didn't feel anything, I
S3: didn't cry, I wasn't sad, I didn't miss her. And
S3: I thought that was odd. So I made an appointment
S3: with a counselor, and she helped me to put into
S3: words the father and mother wounds that I had never
S3: been able to articulate. It was from that point forward,
S3: from the age of 53 on, that I've spent a
S3: couple of decades now studying this and and working with
S3: men on this issue. And I know that men can
S3: be mended, can be healed, because healing is all about
S3: pain and pain can be identified. It can be faced.
S3: It can be grieved. Wounds that have been made against us.
S3: By the way, these wounds, these are things that they're
S3: not your fault. If you're listening today and you have
S3: childhood wounds, it's not your fault. But you're really the
S3: only one that can do anything about it now. But
S3: you can get to a place no matter how toxic you.
S3: I know this sounds crazy. Maybe you. Your parents were
S3: nice like mine, and so the idea of forgiving them
S3: seems a little easier. But maybe they were just mean people.
S3: Maybe they were toxic. Maybe they still are. Maybe when
S3: you invite them over to dinner, they're making snide remarks
S3: about your wife, and they're bossing your children around. And
S3: maybe you do need to set up some boundaries. And
S3: I'm showing you how to do that in the book
S3: as well. But the point is, is that healing is
S3: definitely possible. Men are being healed.
S6: Let's go back to your own childhood again, Pat, and
S6: describe a little more fully. What was it like? I mean,
S6: you say your parents were good parents, but what were
S6: the things that were either missing there or what was
S6: going on there?
S7: Well, I would say that they were nice parents in
S7: terms of good parents. They really had never been trained.
S7: So if you're listening today and you could say my
S7: parents were encouraging or my parents were affirming, then that
S7: would be a sign that you had had, you know,
S7: good parenting. But what if you can't say that in
S7: the book, I identify seven negative parenting styles, and I'll
S7: tell you mine in a moment. But you might say,
S7: if you can't say that they were encouraging, you might say, well,
S7: my parents were passive or my parents were absent. That
S7: could be death, divorce, workaholism, you know, For or addictions.
S7: My parents were permissive, you know, like just let you
S7: have the run of the place and didn't have enough
S7: structure or or maybe you would say my parents were enabling.
S7: And that means, you know, all parents are supposed to
S7: help their children, but enabling is doing for children things
S7: that they should or could be doing for themselves, or
S7: maybe not holding them responsible when they do something they
S7: shouldn't do. Or maybe you might say my parents were, um, demanding. Uh,
S7: or my parents were angry. I had a guy put
S7: a fence in our yard here a little while ago,
S7: and he said, I felt like I grew up in Auschwitz.
S7: He said, just I had to walk around on eggshells.
S7: So if you grew up in an angry home, that's probably,
S7: you know, maybe if you played at your friend's house
S7: all the time instead of your own home, that might
S7: be the case. Or my parents were belittling as the
S7: seventh negative parenting style. And this is your parents making
S7: fun of you, and sometimes in public shaming you for
S7: body parts. Things like this. These things are so destructive
S7: and demeaning in my own case. My parents were very
S7: passive because they had never been equipped to train, as
S7: I said earlier. And then secondly, they were very permissive.
S7: I pretty much could do whatever I wanted to do.
S7: And so I used that permission to get into a
S7: lot of trouble, as some of our listeners probably can
S7: relate to as well. And what made my childhood so
S7: confusing is that my parents were really nice people. They
S7: really were. But as my counselor pointed out, that doesn't
S7: mean that they were a good parent just because they
S7: were nice people. She said that I think that you
S7: have been abandoned. Gross abandonment. Possibly even abused. And when
S7: she said that, I went ballistic, to be honest. I
S7: began defending my mom and dad, but over a period
S7: of eight sessions and only took eight sessions, she was
S7: able to help me really understand and look at things in, uh,
S7: in a more professional way and really understand what had
S7: been happening in my in my family.
S6: Now, the book you have divided into three parts. So
S6: tell us what those three parts are and and why
S6: you structured the book in that manner. Yeah.
S7: So, Gary, I'm all about giving men the practical help
S7: they need, the practical help that they've been looking for
S7: and very much focused on solutions, not problems. But here's
S7: the here's the situation. If you're trying to solve the
S7: wrong problem, you can only succeed by accident. And so
S7: I see this all the time. Men don't really understand
S7: what the problem is. And so the first part of
S7: the book, the arc of this book, part one, is unraveling.
S7: What happened to you? Really understanding childhood wounds, Owns what?
S7: You should have gotten the right cocktail of love. Structure.
S7: Roots and wings. And when that goes awry, you end
S7: up with one of these seven negative parenting styles that
S7: I mentioned. And then also that evolves into adult behavior
S7: and nine different characteristics of adult children with unprocessed childhood wounds.
S7: And so in part one, just really helping a man
S7: understand how he got to the place where he is,
S7: you know, just a sidebar in in our Christian world,
S7: it's our normal process is, is that we help someone
S7: become a follower of Jesus and get forgiveness for sins
S7: and salvation. And then we begin to help them, equip
S7: them and disciple them to move forward. But what I've
S7: discovered in many people, and I know you have too,
S7: is that if you don't process the problems that got
S7: you into the dire situation that made you want to
S7: turn to Jesus in the first place. That doesn't mean
S7: those problems go away. They don't just disappear, so you
S7: have to work through them. And so the purpose of
S7: of this second part of the book is to show
S7: men a biblical healing process that's been around for thousands
S7: of years, and there's seven different stages of this, and
S7: everybody's different. And the stages are not necessarily one right
S7: after another. And sometimes. So like getting out of denial
S7: and facing the truth, that's one of the stages of
S7: grieving what the childhood that you should have had, that
S7: you deserved to have, and actually coming to a place
S7: where you believe that you did deserve to have a
S7: different childhood. You know, one of the problems that men
S7: who grow up with childhood wounds is that they feel
S7: like they deserved what they got in some cases, not
S7: all cases. So anyway, the second part of the book then,
S7: is about that healing process. So understanding what happened, healing it.
S7: And then the third part of the book is about
S7: breaking the cycle for the next generation, for your wife,
S7: if you're married or or if you ever do get married,
S7: and your children if you have them or ever do
S7: have them. And then also for your friends and colleagues
S7: and other people around you that may also be struggling
S7: with these kinds of childhood wounds. So that's it, the
S7: three phases of the book.
S6: And I think that progression makes a whole lot of
S6: sense to a person that has that is going through
S6: this process. So describe like the kind of damage that
S6: a man carries from childhood into adulthood. And I don't
S6: mean you can go into everything, but just give us a,
S6: an example of that kind of thing.
S7: Yeah. Well, one of the characteristics is that you are
S7: oversensitive and frequently misread what people intend. Now there are
S7: probably a good percentage of the men and women listening
S7: right now who can identify with that. You're prickly. You
S7: take things the wrong way. I have a friend. He's
S7: doing better now. But when he had four young children,
S7: he and his his wife and four young children, they
S7: would be, like in the family room. And and he
S7: would walk into the, the family room, and 15 minutes
S7: later he'd be sitting by himself. And it's just that
S7: he was so oversensitive. He took everything the wrong way.
S7: And then he made these prickly remarks. Even his own
S7: family didn't want to be around them. So that would
S7: be one of the one of the ways. And then,
S7: of course, you know, anger. Being easily angered is a
S7: very profound response mechanism for men who have childhood wounds
S7: that have not been been addressed. Um, it's just a
S7: it's a it's a way of self-defense, if you will. Yeah.
S7: Just simply not knowing how to process conflict. And then
S7: also having had childhood memories of their parents being angry
S7: with them and lose their temper with their children, so they,
S7: they themselves grow up with this bottled up anger and
S7: then they pass it on to everybody else.
S8: Yeah.
S6: Now, we know that a lot of lot of men
S6: who grew up in those kind of families will just abandon.
S6: They're just kind of, well, as you said, join the
S6: army or just go somewhere. Get out of this, you know. Right.
S6: And they have very negative attitudes toward their parents. Now,
S6: what steps do you teach someone to help them shift
S6: their perspective to being compassionate toward their parents, instead of
S6: just blaming them and having being angry with them for
S6: the bad things that happened?
S7: Yeah. And that really is the entirety of this book
S7: is to to lead a man to that. But one
S7: important concept that Jesus teaches is the concept of unilateral forgiveness.
S7: And it's interesting. I didn't know what I was doing
S7: when I was 25 years of age, when I decided
S7: to unilaterally forgive my mom and dad for everything they
S7: had done. But in the Lord's Prayer, Jesus said, forgive
S7: us our sins as we forgive those who have sinned
S7: against us. When they humble themselves and come to us
S7: and bowed need and beg for forgiveness. It doesn't say that.
S7: It just says, forgive us our sins as we forgive
S7: those who have sinned against us. And and it is
S7: sin because parenting is a it's a privilege and a
S7: sacred responsibility to give children the right cocktail of love, structure,
S7: roots and wings, and to give them the emotional and
S7: the relational and the spiritual. It's not just putting a
S7: roof over the head. Of course, we all know this,
S7: but it is protection. And so, in fact, the essence
S7: of manhood is to identify and protect sacred things. And
S7: so there's nothing more sacred that needs protecting than a
S7: man's family.
S6: Well, let's talk, uh, talk to the man who sees
S6: what you're saying. They understand what you're talking about, but
S6: they don't have a clue as to what to do,
S6: where that is, where to begin. So what's a first
S6: step in breaking destructive family cycles?
S7: Yeah. Here's the big picture. If you're listening and you've
S7: identified with anything that we've been talking about here today
S7: and you maybe are suspicious, maybe you know, that you
S7: have childhood wounds that you've never processed, maybe you're just
S7: suspicious that that might be the case, or maybe you've
S7: been in a deep state of denial. We all compartmentalize
S7: bad thoughts, but denial is something different. It's emotional amnesia.
S7: We literally block things out and literally cannot remember them.
S7: But now your interest has been piqued a little bit.
S7: So the first question to ask is, I would like
S7: you to picture yourself 5 or 10 years down the
S7: road and then look at the behaviors, the unwanted behaviors
S7: that you have right now, or the fears and anxieties
S7: that you'd like to get rid of right now. And
S7: ask yourself what will be different 5 or 10 years
S7: from now, unless you take some action to do something
S7: about them? That's why I wrote this book. I wrote
S7: it for you. I'm. I'm known for personal vulnerability, but
S7: I'm also known for giving men practical resources. And that's
S7: why the book is filled with practical exercises, reflections, discussion,
S7: and reflection questions at the end of each chapter. So
S7: you can do that by yourself or in a small group.
S7: There are several writing Exercises to help you put down
S7: on paper some thoughts to help you clarify your own
S7: thinking about what happened to you, and then some positive
S7: steps that you can take with your own life and
S7: your own children, and with your friends. To be that
S7: cycle breaker, to be that that guy that the other
S7: men hope that they can become someday too.
S6: So I hear you saying, the first of all, you identify,
S6: you know, what are you going to be like in
S6: ten years if you don't deal with some of this stuff? Yeah.
S6: And then you decide I'm going to take some steps.
S6: And when you do, this book is going to be
S6: a guideline for you. That's that's what I see. And
S6: that's what I hear you saying. Right.
S7: So that's it. That's it. And I'm also telling men
S7: and women, women are reading the book too. So this
S7: is my 23rd book. And usually I know that when
S7: I do an interview like this, most people are not
S7: going to go out and buy the book. so I
S7: always try to give value in the interview. So this
S7: is something that they can take away because even if
S7: they don't end up with with the book. But guys,
S7: this is different. This is you can't just listen to
S7: this interview today and get what you need to heal
S7: your childhood wounds. In fact, you're not going to be
S7: able to get enough to heal your childhood wounds just
S7: by reading the book and getting the intellectual knowledge about it.
S7: I'm telling men and women, this is not a book
S7: that you read. This is a book you do. You
S7: have to do the book. And but if you will
S7: do the book, God will show up. It may be
S7: that you go all the way to healing. And if
S7: your childhood wounds have been on the more mild side,
S7: you might go all the way to healing, or you
S7: might go a certain distance down the road that might
S7: incite you or encourage you or and I do this
S7: in the book. Encourage you if you do feel like
S7: you need to get professional help to seek out a counselor.
S7: In fact, even have a link on how to find
S7: a counselor in the book. So it's just it's a
S7: book filled with practical, practical help.
S6: Now, Pat, you alluded to the spouse of a man,
S6: you know, who has these these pains. What do you
S6: say to to that wife who's caught in this kind
S6: of cycle? How does a woman married to a wounded
S6: man become an instrument of love and help for him?
S7: Mm. So it's not a simple answer in one sense,
S7: but it is in another. I mean, because the woman
S7: herself might be a broken woman, you see a broken girl,
S7: or she might be a person who's not a follower
S7: of Jesus, and her own temperament might not be well
S7: suited to to be a Cooper, uh, with these kinds
S7: of things. But here's what I would say and I
S7: would encourage women to do. If you have a husband
S7: and you suspect that because of his behavior or your
S7: knowledge that he has some childhood wounds that have never
S7: been dealt with, is that you would not try to
S7: fix him. So that is absolutely the worst thing that
S7: you can do. And you probably already know that because
S7: you may have already done it or you've seen somebody
S7: else do it. So I'd encourage you not to do that.
S7: I would encourage you to most of all, pray to
S7: our Savior and our Lord and our God to help
S7: your husband. But then on a practical level, I'd really
S7: encourage you to get a copy of this book for
S7: yourself and read it so that you can understand what
S7: he's going through. That will give you more empathy toward him,
S7: and it also give you some practical ideas to understand
S7: how he could be helped. And then the final piece
S7: of prayer, you know, read the book for yourself, for
S7: your own knowledge or for your own personal life, if
S7: that's the case. But then consider suggesting that your husband
S7: read the book. Do not give the book at him.
S7: Does that make sense? But do give the book to him.
S7: I have a a friend who got a copy of
S7: the book, didn't read it. His wife read it and
S7: she she just said to him one day and she
S7: had that tone of voice. She said, you know, I
S7: really think you should read this.
S6: And he got and he.
S7: And he understood what she was saying, and he read
S7: it and it really did help him.
S9: Mhm.
S6: Yeah. I've sometimes said to women ask him if he'll
S6: read the first chapter. Yeah that's good. If you read
S6: the first chapter you probably read the rest of it
S6: you know.
S7: That is very good.
S6: Now your book gives a, as it were, a game
S6: plan to process pain and then come to the place
S6: of forgiveness and then building better relationships. Uh, give us
S6: some examples of the action plans that have that have
S6: helped men.
S7: Okay. Well, I mentioned that there are these nine different
S7: characteristics of broken boys. I mean, I could write a
S7: book on any one of these things, right? But instead,
S7: what I've chosen to do is give the guy that's
S7: reading it a page or two of information so that
S7: he can identify with it. For example, characteristic number four.
S7: You're not sure what healthy male behavior looks like. And
S7: then I tell the story in there that when I
S7: did join the Army, I rose to the rank of
S7: specialist four in the minimum amount of time. And then
S7: when I would have been promoted to E5, which is
S7: a sergeant. I didn't get the promotion in the minimum
S7: amount of time, so I started bugging my master sergeant
S7: every day and asking him, you know, when are, you know,
S7: what did I do wrong? When are you going to
S7: promote me? And finally he sat me down and he said, son,
S7: let me give you some advice. The more you pester me,
S7: the less motivated I am to promote you. So.
S6: But you know my, my, my.
S7: So you can see my launch into manhood. It was
S7: just very, very awkward. I had no situational awareness, very
S7: low emotional intelligence. I was I just I floundered and that's,
S7: you know, if you're listening, maybe you were not fathered
S7: or mothered or mentored or coached about what it means
S7: to be a man. And so as a result, you know,
S7: you like me, you were unprepared for adulthood because your
S7: parents just didn't know how to equip you or didn't
S7: equip you to become independent. So it could be, you know,
S7: college advice. It could be vocational advice, some information about
S7: the opposite gender. Well, first of all, I never heard
S7: the words I love you or I'm proud of you
S7: or we believe in you. No recollection of any of
S7: those kinds of words. And so I just didn't have
S7: the nurture to enter into adulthood as, as with healthy
S7: male behavior. And so in the book, I spent a
S7: couple pages on that. And then at the end of this,
S7: I have a reflection exercise for you, the man, to
S7: evaluate yourself in this area. And I'll just read it.
S7: It says, how often do you feel like you know
S7: what healthy male behavior is in a given situation? And
S7: then you have five choices. Never. Rarely. Sometimes. Usually or always.
S7: This is helping give a man A map of where
S7: he is, how he got there, and then moving forward.
S7: In this healing process. There are also exercises for him
S7: to do, to actually pray, prayers, to go through acts
S7: of forgiveness. Just every, every chapter has different kinds of
S7: exercises and reflections for for the man to do and
S7: to be. Make it very practical.
S6: Pat, you mentioned earlier that this is a process. It's
S6: not something that can be done overnight, but typically, how
S6: long do you think a process is? If a man
S6: seriously sees, you know, these wounds and hurts and really
S6: wants to move in the right direction, how long might
S6: that process take?
S7: Well, Gary, it's going to be different for every man.
S7: Of course, you know that the depending on the severity
S7: of the wounds. And but I would say that most
S7: men should be able to make immense Progress in as
S7: little as 2 or 3 months. And I say that
S7: from personal experience. I experienced about a 70%, or maybe
S7: even 80% improvement just by going through eight professional counseling sessions.
S7: The feeling that I had at the time was I
S7: knew that I was a follower of Jesus, but somehow
S7: I just felt dull. I didn't feel that the luster
S7: of the gospel. I didn't want to read about the
S7: abundant life, I didn't. I didn't feel abundant when when
S7: it says in scriptures that Christ came to make us alive.
S7: I didn't feel fully alive. And but here's the thing.
S7: In a matter of of of a of a couple
S7: of months, that radically changed. Now, that doesn't mean that
S7: everything was, was, was fixed or made well or made
S7: whole right away. In fact, even today, I still walk
S7: with a limp. Erik Erickson's famous child development theory. The
S7: first task of that is trust versus mistrust. And so
S7: if a child in the first few months or years
S7: of its life makes the decision that the world is
S7: not a safe place, then even when you heal your
S7: childhood wounds, you're still going to be dealing with some
S7: of that first characteristic that you have a hard time
S7: believing that people really care about you. So I still
S7: struggle with that when I walk into a room today.
S7: Unless I'm filled with the Holy Spirit, I still my
S7: natural tendency is to be suspicious that people are really
S7: not going to not going to like me. Now, I
S7: don't actually act on that that much anymore, but every
S7: now and then it does rear its head. So you're
S7: going to walk with a limp. Let's be, you know,
S7: completely transparent about that. But that doesn't mean that you
S7: can't feel fully alive in Jesus. You can.
S6: Mhm. That's absolutely. What do you say to the man
S6: who sees he needs help? Maybe he is working through
S6: this book. He's making some, you know, progress. But let's
S6: say that anger is one of the characteristics that he's
S6: exhibited and he's tried to deal with. And so he's
S6: made a few steps forward, feeling good about himself. And
S6: then something happens and he has an outburst of anger
S6: and hurts, you know, his wife or kids or whomever
S6: it is. How might he feel at that point and
S6: what is he do at that point?
S7: Well, he's going to have different voices in his head, right?
S7: He's going to have the Holy Spirit who's going to be,
S7: first of all, loving him, but also encouraging, convicting him
S7: to to make it right. But he's also going to
S7: have the voice of the devil in his head as well, saying, see,
S7: I told you your mother was right. You're going to
S7: end up just like your dad. You know you're never
S7: going to be any good, so you're going to have
S7: those voices in your head. So it's a little bit
S7: of a whack a mole kind of a thing. But
S7: here's the thing. The way I look at it, and
S7: my experience proves this out, is that each time you
S7: have an episode, you go through the process of, first
S7: of all, repenting or changing your mind about it and
S7: asking for forgiveness. And it's like cutting a piece of
S7: string in half. So half is gone, but half is left.
S7: But the half that's left is not as big as
S7: it was before. And then the next time you have
S7: an episode, you cut the string in half again. So
S7: a little bit of it goes away when you apologize
S7: and ask for forgiveness, but half of the string is
S7: still there. But again, it's not as long as it
S7: was before. And so you do. And you can make
S7: progress over time with this.
S6: Yeah, yeah. What about the man who denies that anything
S6: really bad happened in childhood? Or he recognizes that there
S6: were problems back there, But. But it doesn't affect me.
S6: It doesn't affect me. What are you. What do you
S6: say to that guy?
S7: He's probably not ready for the book. It's a fascinating
S7: thing that would happen when I was writing the book.
S7: When I was in college, I used to race motocross,
S7: and my mom and dad came to see me race
S7: one time. One time. That happened to be the day
S7: that I got into a nasty accident and got flown
S7: to the hospital in a helicopter.
S3: Well, my mom and dad didn't come. My mom and.
S7: Dad didn't come to the emergency room and they never
S7: called to check up to see how I was.
S9: Mhm.
S7: Well, now you would think that that would be, that
S7: would be such a devastating memory that it would just,
S7: you know, really rip me apart. Right. Yeah. But here's
S7: the thing. Until I was literally until I was writing
S7: the book, I literally had no recollection of that. It
S7: was by writing the book, reliving everything. You know, that
S7: memory came back to me and I. But. And that's
S7: what the that's how powerful denial is. Yeah. But the
S7: process of of facing the truth then, is what I'm
S7: trying to help men do so they can get out
S7: of denial. And that's really to actually try to help
S7: men remember the man who does read the book. I'm
S7: going to guide him through a process of remembering the
S7: goal of getting out of denial, of facing the truth
S7: is remembering what we've been trying to forget or what
S7: we have forgotten.
S6: Yeah. Yeah. Now, when you were personally walking this, this journey,
S6: did your wife have a positive role in that? I mean,
S6: was she encouraging to you as you were working through
S6: all of this?
S7: Well, my my wife is the Mother Teresa of my house.
S7: I mean, she's the most amazing person she was. She
S7: came to to faith at the age of 12 at
S7: a Billy Graham crusade, and she ended up leading her
S7: entire family to Jesus. She led me to Jesus. And she.
S7: But she's a very, you know, a quiet person. She's
S7: the kindest person, really, that I've ever known. And so
S7: she supplied to me the nurture that I didn't get
S7: as a child. And so for the first several years
S7: of our marriage, uh, I mean, she effectively parented me.
S7: And so that was a blessing from God. And so, men,
S7: if you have a a wife who is like that,
S7: who is a nurturer and is trying to be helpful, well,
S7: can I just say it? Don't be a jerk about it.
S7: It receive it and.
S3: Be humble.
S7: And be grateful. It's a it's a it's a it's
S7: a it's a tremendous blessing for sure.
S8: Yeah.
S6: Well, Pat, as we come to the end of our
S6: time together today, can you tell us a story about
S6: someone who has taken a similar journey to yours And
S6: has now found freedom.
S7: Yeah. My best friend for 17 years was a man
S7: who ran our Bible study, the one I teach. I
S7: made a deal with him. I'll teach. And you do
S7: everything else. And so we would go out to lunch
S7: in a movie every Friday. And we did that for
S7: 17 years until he passed away. And he grew up
S7: in a home that was extremely dysfunctional. And his father
S7: was a belittling and a demeaning person. So one day,
S7: my friend Jim, when he was about ten years old,
S7: had his friend in the neighborhood, Timmy, over to play.
S7: And as Timmy was getting ready to leave my friends,
S7: Jim's father opened the door and in front of my
S7: friend Jim, who's ten years old at the time, says
S7: to Timmy, Timmy, you can come back anytime. I sure
S7: wish I had a son like you. Well, I mean,
S7: how do you get over that? And then all the
S7: other things that the father would have said as well.
S7: But here's the thing. Jim was able to process his
S7: childhood wounds and was able to, you know, come to
S7: a place to a forgiveness. His father in particular was toxic.
S7: And so he was never really able to have a
S7: relationship with him again. Unlike me, I was able to
S7: have a relationship again with my dad. That happened at
S7: the age of 35 for me, but it never happened
S7: for Jim. But he was able to become a follower
S7: of Jesus, to get married, to have his own family
S7: and be a loving husband and father and a man
S7: of service who just who loved to serve other people.
S7: That never would have happened, though, if he had not
S7: found rest for his soul by becoming a follower of Jesus.
S7: You know, Jesus said, come unto me, all you who
S7: are weary and burdened, and I will give you more
S7: work to do, you I know.
S9: Yeah.
S7: He says, come unto me, and I will give you rest.
S7: You'll find rest for your soul. And Jim did find
S7: that rest. Yeah.
S6: Well, my prediction is that God's going to use this
S6: book to help a lot of men look to God
S6: and walk with God through this process of finding healing
S6: from the wounds of childhood. And I also want to
S6: say this, I think a lot of counselors who may
S6: be listening today, this book is going to be a
S6: great tool for Christian counselors to use in the process
S6: of helping men walk through this journey. So, Pat, again,
S6: thanks for being with us today.
S7: Thank you, Gary, and thank you Chris and Andrea as well.
S7: I appreciate it. And to all you men out there,
S7: I pray every day that God.
S3: Will give you a all the fullness of the abundant
S3: life and that you would feel fully alive in Jesus.
S3: And that is my prayer every day.
S5: Well, what a great resource for any man listening who
S5: has those unresolved hurts. If you go to building relationships.us,
S5: you'll see the book by Pat Morley from Broken Boy
S5: to Mended Man A Positive plan to heal your childhood
S5: wounds and break the cycle. Just go to building relationships.us.
S6: And next week, your questions and comments about the five
S6: love languages and relational struggles.
S4: Don't miss our Dear Gary broadcast in one week. And
S4: if you'd like to call and ask a question, our
S4: number is 1866424. Gary, before we go, let me thank
S4: our production team, Steve Wick and Janice. Backing building relationships
S4: with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio
S4: in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
UU: Thanks for listening.