S1: If you feel like you're on a spiritual hamster wheel
S1: trying to do enough to make God happy. Don't miss
S1: today's Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman.
S2: Maybe he's inviting you to lean into that one primary
S2: way that he wants to express his delight toward you.
S2: Maybe it's time for more walks outside, or it's time
S2: to really dig into Scripture. That might be God's invitation
S2: to delight for you today.
S1: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S1: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
S1: author and speaker Ashrita ChuChu is back with some help.
S1: For anyone who's burdened, broken, or burned out.
S3: She's asking an important question what if we've gotten the
S3: spiritual disciplines wrong? What if our growth and maturity come
S3: not from perfecting our quiet time, but really in delighting
S3: in the perfect love of the father for you and me.
S3: Acereda develops that in the new book. She's titled Delighting
S3: in Jesus Rhythms to restore joy when you feel burdened, broken,
S3: or burned out. Is that how you feel today? It's
S3: our featured resource at Building Relationships, us and Gary. I
S3: don't think we've ever talked about this. Have you ever
S3: gone through that struggle of trying to measure up spiritually,
S3: or falling into the performance trap with God?
S4: You know, Chris, I think in the early days when
S4: I was first introduced to the daily quiet time, you know,
S4: I kind of saw it as I have to do
S4: this every day, you know, in order for God to
S4: be with me. ET cetera. ET cetera. But that's been
S4: a long time ago. It's still a very active part
S4: of my life, but I'm not allowing the fact that
S4: I miss a morning because I have to catch an
S4: early flight. You know, I just say, hey, God, let's
S4: talk on the plane. You know, and let's talk as
S4: we drive to the airport. So. Yeah. But I understand.
S4: I understand that concept. And I'm really glad we're going
S4: to be discussing this today.
S3: Me too. Let me reintroduce our guest. She's a best
S3: selling author of ten books. National retreat speaker teaches the
S3: Bible on YouTube. Ashreeta ChuChu grew up as a missionary
S3: kid in Romania. She married her high school sweetheart, Flavio,
S3: and they have three children. Live in Northeast Ohio. Her
S3: latest is our featured resource at Building Relationships US. It's
S3: titled Delighting in Jesus Rhythms to restore joy when you
S3: feel burdened, broken, or burned out. Again, go to building relationships.us.
S4: Well, Ashreeta, welcome back to Building Relationships.
S2: Thank you so much for having me back on. It's
S2: my joy to be here.
S4: I don't think we've ever talked about your name. So
S4: let's start there. What does that name mean? Ashreeta?
S2: Sure. My name is actually made up. My father made
S2: it up. It's Hebrew for God gives me happiness. And
S2: that's just been a blessing on my life since I
S2: was a little girl, that I would grow up to
S2: learn that God is my happiness.
S4: Wow. I like that. Many Christians feel guilty about not
S4: reading the Bible or praying enough. But you believe that
S4: this view of spiritual disciplines is actually anti-Christian? Can you
S4: explain that?
S2: Yeah, this view of reading my Bible or praying every
S2: day kind of checklist spiritual mentality is based in performance,
S2: in wanting to make sure that we measure up to
S2: some level of what God expects of us or, um,
S2: kind of reaching that super Christian level of I read
S2: the Bible through a year, or I spend an hour, um,
S2: studying my Bible and praying, and that is rooted in
S2: a desire to perform, to reach a certain level of
S2: I don't want to say maturity as much as I'm
S2: doing it right. And when Jesus was on the cross,
S2: he achieved everything that is needed to be made right
S2: with God. It is Jesus's sacrifice plus nothing else. That
S2: is why he said it is finished. So whenever we
S2: try to add to Jesus's sacrifice through our our good deeds,
S2: through even reading the Bible or going to church, there's
S2: this sneaky deception that can sneak in where we think
S2: we need to do something to make God happy with us.
S2: But if we belong to Christ, when God looks at us,
S2: he sees the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ. There's nothing
S2: else we can do to add to that. So reading
S2: our Bible and praying and going to church and fasting
S2: and sharing the gospel with our neighbors or friends or coworkers.
S2: Those are all things that we do out of the
S2: overflow of what Jesus has accomplished, not to add to it.
S4: Yeah. So it seems to me that what you're advocating
S4: is a real relationship with God based on loving acceptance,
S4: rather than a formula that's based on performance. Is that right?
S2: Yeah. That's it exactly. I think what God invites us
S2: into with these practices is to nurture our friendship with Jesus,
S2: to receive his delight in us and respond to him
S2: with delight. And so reading our Bible doesn't have to
S2: be a chore anymore. It doesn't have to be boring
S2: when we get to Leviticus. I mean, they'll still be
S2: challenging sections. We still need to do the hard work
S2: of showing up and and reading. But we have a helper.
S2: Jesus says, I'm not going to leave you by yourself.
S2: I'm going to send the counselor and he will lead
S2: you in all truth. So when we sit down with
S2: Leviticus and we're like, what's with the blood? What's with
S2: the sacrifices? What's with I don't understand. We can ask
S2: God's Spirit, would you open my eyes? Would you help
S2: me to see Jesus here? Would you give me a
S2: hunger and a thirst to get to know you more?
S2: And once you see Jesus in Leviticus, it just unlocks
S2: a world of understanding of who he is and what
S2: he's done for us. It's such a fun adventure.
S4: Yeah. So the reading of the scriptures is really a
S4: part of having a conversation with God. It's a relationship
S4: with God. And and this is just taking time consciously
S4: to sit down and listen to God as well as
S4: talk to God. Right?
S2: Absolutely. And that made such a difference in my own life. Gary.
S2: I grew up in a Christian family. So blessed to
S2: have parents who taught me the Bible. Who taught me
S2: solid theology about God. And from an early age I
S2: learned to read the Bible. I learned to do all
S2: the spiritual disciplines. But it was God revealing himself to
S2: me through scripture that really caused me to want to
S2: know him more. It wasn't so much about did I
S2: read my three chapters today, right? Can I check off
S2: this list of okay, I'm on track or no, I'm
S2: three days behind. It's going to take me so long
S2: to catch up. It's showing up to the page and saying, God,
S2: would you show me something about yourself? I think reading
S2: the Word of God, this rhythm of the word, is
S2: really about delighting in his revelation for us. He wants
S2: to teach us who he is. He wants to reveal
S2: new things about his heart toward us. And he does
S2: that through Scripture.
S4: As a way Actually to talk to listeners who are
S4: not Christians or they don't share our love for the Bible.
S4: What would you say to them?
S2: I want to say that our story begins not with
S2: sin or failure or falling short of God's glory. Our
S2: story begins with a good creator and maker who made
S2: us for relationship. He made us out of delight, out
S2: of the overflow of delight. And he placed humans, Adam
S2: and Eve in the Garden of Eden. And Eden means delight.
S2: So the beginning of our story is an invitation to
S2: relationship and delight. When sin entered the picture, it kind
S2: of twisted that to where we now seek happiness and
S2: joy and delight in other things, instead of finding that
S2: fulfillment in God. And so my invitation to you, if
S2: you're listening to this and you're like, oh, the Bible
S2: is an ancient book. It's not relevant today. It feels boring.
S2: It's just a legalistic thing that people say that you
S2: should do. My invitation to you would be to reach
S2: out to God in prayer and ask him. Ask him
S2: to reveal himself to you and sit down with a
S2: few chapters of of the book of John and ask,
S2: what does this say about God? And Jesus promises that
S2: he will gather his sheep, that he will speak to
S2: his sheep, and they will hear his voice. And if
S2: you truly, honestly want to get to know God, if
S2: you truly want to know is this real? It is
S2: God's delight to reveal himself to those who seek him.
S2: Those who diligently seek him will find him when they
S2: seek him with all of his heart. God says, I
S2: will make myself found to them. So what a great adventure! Then,
S2: if you're in that place where you're like, I'm not
S2: sure if this is real or not. Ask God. It
S2: will be his delight to say, let me show you.
S2: As long as that request comes from a humble and
S2: honest heart that pleases him.
S4: Ashreeta this is your 10th book, but of all the
S4: devotionals and Bible studies that you've published, you share that
S4: this has been the hardest one to write. Why is
S4: that true?
S2: Well, Gary, I was not expecting this book to be
S2: as difficult to write as it has been because as
S2: I shared earlier, my name means God is my happiness.
S2: God gives me happiness. And that's been true of my
S2: life my whole life long. So I was so excited
S2: to sit down and write a book about how to
S2: find joy in Jesus, sharing with Christians what I've learned
S2: throughout my walk with the Lord. But what I didn't
S2: expect was to enter into one of the darkest periods
S2: of my life just prior to writing this book. Feeling
S2: myself in a place of just hardship and heaviness and
S2: darkness and really questioning like where did my joy go? God,
S2: if you are my happiness and I'm not experiencing that
S2: happiness anymore. Then is this still true? Am I somehow,
S2: how of your favor or your grace? Is that why
S2: I feel this heaviness and this sorrow in my soul?
S2: And that's what made this book so difficult to write,
S2: was because I wanted to tell the truth, and I
S2: had to first grapple with my own lack of joy.
S2: And so that's where all of this, actually the beginning
S2: of this book starts. It opens with me crying out
S2: to the Lord and echoing David's words in Psalm 13, God,
S2: turn and answer me. Restore the sparkle to my eyes,
S2: or I will die. And I didn't even start writing
S2: anything until almost a year later. So all of what
S2: I had learned in theory up to that point, all
S2: of what I had experienced on the sunshine days of life,
S2: all of that then entered into what felt like the
S2: valley of the shadow of death and saying, Will you
S2: still walk with me? Will. Will you teach me about
S2: your delight and your presence, even when I'm not joyful
S2: and God in your kindness, would you restore joy? Like
S2: if this is to be the rest of my life,
S2: if it is to be obedient and diligence, even if
S2: my emotions aren't there, then I will follow you. But God,
S2: it would just. It would mean so much if you
S2: were to restore my joy. Like, would you, in your kindness,
S2: help me to sense your delight again? And what followed
S2: was the Lord's kind healing of me, body and soul
S2: and spirit and mind just a whole person restoration where
S2: now I can say a couple years down the road
S2: he has restored the sparkle to my eyes.
S4: Well, I think that's something that David spoke of often,
S4: as you mentioned in the Psalms. And I think a
S4: lot of our listeners can identify with that as well. Now,
S4: you make the bold claim that what Western Christians think
S4: is the gospel is actually an incomplete gospel for many. So.
S4: So what is the gospel and how can we know
S4: the correct definition?
S2: I think part of the challenge is when we present
S2: the gospel starting with sin, and that's often how it's shared.
S2: It's this to tell you the good news, I first
S2: have to tell you the bad news. And we start
S2: with sin and failure and condemnation. And then the good
S2: news that Jesus came and paid the price for our sins. Hallelujah!
S2: What a beautiful truth. But that is not where the
S2: gospel begins. The gospel begins in Genesis chapter one. It
S2: begins with a God of delight who created humans in
S2: his image as his image bearers in the world, out
S2: of delight, with an invitation then to relationship and delight
S2: an understanding that God cares about our happiness. That God
S2: truly longs for us to experience the fullness of joy
S2: in his presence. Psalm 1611 says, in your presence is
S2: fullness of joy. At your right hand are pleasures forevermore.
S2: When we understand, then that that is what God is
S2: inviting us into is a restoration of delight and relationship.
S2: That yes, sin marred that and destroyed that. And because
S2: of that, we lost the Garden of Eden. And Jesus
S2: came as the God become flesh, God and humanity united
S2: so that he might restore to us what has been
S2: broken and stolen. Then Jesus dying on the cross is
S2: not just for our sins. It is for death and
S2: destruction and the curse of evil and everything that is
S2: broken in the world. And his resurrection is, yes, the
S2: the victory over sin and the enemy, but it also
S2: brings in the new kingdom of God. Jesus looks at
S2: people and in his day and he says, the kingdom
S2: of God is here in your midst. It's moving out
S2: in power. So the Spirit of God then coming to
S2: dwell in us is not about sin management. It is
S2: about the Spirit of God, then restoring to us his
S2: own presence and and doing this good work of growing
S2: into what it means to be followers of Jesus, what
S2: it means to be those who love, who restore, who
S2: bring the kingdom wherever we go. And that is the
S2: work that we do. Then it's inviting people not into
S2: this transactional like get out of hell free card. It's
S2: not just about eternal security, and we just kind of
S2: hang tight until Jesus comes back or until we die
S2: and see him face to face. Like that misses the
S2: heart of the gospel, which is that God has always
S2: been about restoration and bringing about relationship and delight to
S2: the fullness of what he created us for. And I
S2: think it's once we capture that vision of, oh, how
S2: much more is available to us through God's Spirit, how
S2: much more he invites us into that, then it's not
S2: about reading my Bible and praying every day because that's
S2: what God expects of me. It's. Oh my goodness, God
S2: wants so much for us here and now as the
S2: body of Christ as His church. And so I'm going
S2: to seek his face today, Lord, in these appointments that
S2: you have for me in these projects at work, in
S2: the challenges of parenting my children or with in-laws or
S2: neighbors in these places. What does it look like to
S2: say your kingdom come, your will be done on earth
S2: as it is in heaven, and start here. Start in
S2: my home. That then becomes a redemptive collaboration with God's Spirit.
S2: That is what we see from Genesis to Revelation is
S2: this is the big picture of what God invites us to.
S2: And it is a compelling call then to say, Come
S2: to Jesus. It's so much more than the Romans road. Think.
S2: Thank God for those truths and for the beauty and
S2: theological truths of atonement. But it is so much richer
S2: and more beautiful and more compelling when we grasp the
S2: heart of God for redemption and restoration. And that's not
S2: just someday in heaven. It starts here and now with us,
S2: with God's Spirit in us. Yeah.
S4: Actually, whether you talk about joy and we often hear
S4: the word joy and happiness, is there a difference between
S4: these two? According to the Bible.
S2: Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up, Gary. Because
S2: when we look at the words that the Bible uses
S2: for joy and happiness and delight, the Bible is indiscriminate
S2: in its uses of these words. They are synonymous in Scripture,
S2: and I think we do a disservice when we try
S2: to kind of split hairs and say, oh, happiness is
S2: what the world offers, and joy is what God offers.
S2: In Scripture, honestly, they're the same because God is the
S2: inventor of joy and happiness. Every good and beautiful gift
S2: comes from God. Every wonderful thing, everything that's ever brought
S2: a smile to your face has at its core, a
S2: kernel of the goodness of God. So joy and happiness
S2: are gifts from God. Where the problem comes in is
S2: when we seek to fill that core desire for delight
S2: and joy and happiness. What God created us in the
S2: Garden of Eden to experience in him. When we reach
S2: out for the fruit, when we seek to take hold
S2: of that experience through food, through shopping, through alcohol, through relationships,
S2: through money or power, when we reach for those other
S2: things than to fill that desire and that void, that
S2: is where we go awry. That that is where the
S2: desire for a good thing is leading us in the
S2: wrong direction. But when we find our true happiness, our
S2: true desire and fulfillment in Christ, in Jesus, in the
S2: fullness of who he is and what he's done, then
S2: we can then receive those things as good gifts from him.
S2: We're told that whether we eat or drink, we should
S2: do it for God's glory. So even Jesus modeled this,
S2: that he would have such a good time with his friends,
S2: he would sit at late dinners and parties and have
S2: just the grandest time. I feel like Jesus would be
S2: such a fun party guest that the Pharisees accused him
S2: of being a drunkard and a glutton like Jesus knew
S2: how to receive food as a good gift, and it
S2: brought joy and satisfaction because that was in its proper place.
S2: He received it as a good gift from his father.
S2: So every good and beautiful gift in our lives, whether
S2: it's cuddling a baby and seeing the twinkle in their
S2: eyes or playing catch with a son or a daughter or,
S2: I don't know, seeing the sun rise and watching how
S2: the sky is painted, all the beautiful colors or watching
S2: your your team, your favorite sports team win a game
S2: when God is in that place that he is our
S2: true delight. All these other things we can receive as
S2: gifts of joy from him and. And what a beautiful,
S2: what a beautiful reality that God is a good father
S2: who gives good gifts to his children. I think rather
S2: than trying to push those aside and pretend they don't matter,
S2: I think that does a disservice to our good father
S2: who blesses us with so many gifts. I think instead,
S2: when we learn to delight our souls in the Lord,
S2: we can then receive all those things as the good
S2: gifts that they're meant to be, that then reveal the
S2: heart of the father who delights in us.
S4: Yeah, yeah. You know, in my research on the five
S4: love languages, I've seen how people feel love in different ways.
S4: You know what makes one person feel loved? Does it
S4: make another person feel loved? And I actually wrote a
S4: book called God Speaks Your Love Language, in which I
S4: deal with conversion experiences, for example, that we have different
S4: types of conversion experiences because God's speaking to people individually
S4: so that they sense the love of God. Have you
S4: observed this? Do you think people feel close to God
S4: in different ways? What's your response to that idea?
S2: I'm so glad you brought that up, Gary, because I
S2: read that book a few years ago, and it was
S2: such a light bulb moment for me to be like, oh,
S2: this makes so much sense. Like, God is the God
S2: of love. So of course he would speak all the
S2: love languages. And I loved how you walked through Scripture
S2: to show ways in which God expresses his love in
S2: all these ways. And I found that to be true
S2: in my own life. Um, the way that I feel
S2: close to God is different from how my husband feels
S2: close to God, and is different from how my friends
S2: feel close to God. And once we accept that they're
S2: all gifts, like avenues and channels of love and adoration,
S2: ways that we experience God's love, and ways that we
S2: can express our love back to him, there's such freedom
S2: that comes with that. That there is no one size
S2: fits all quiet time formula in the Bible. There's nowhere
S2: in Scripture that says that you need to get up
S2: before the sun gets up and read your Bible for
S2: an hour, or try to read, you know, the Bible
S2: in a year. I've done that multiple times. I know
S2: I keep picking on it, but it's been a good
S2: experience for me in seasons of life, and at the
S2: same time, I've gone through seasons where that wasn't a
S2: possibility and I dealt with so much guilt and shame
S2: because of a self-imposed project. Was God truly displeased with
S2: me that I fell behind somewhere in numbers, or was
S2: that my own expectation of I think this is what
S2: God wants from me? Searching scripture and saying, how does
S2: God invite us to draw near to him, brought such
S2: liberation to see that there's no formula. And so there's
S2: this freedom that there's one way to God the Father,
S2: and that is through Jesus Christ the Son. And if
S2: you come to God through Jesus, there are a multitude
S2: of ways that you can do that. So you can
S2: listen to the audio Bible as you drive to work,
S2: or you might write a verse on your hand and
S2: look at it throughout the day and meditate on it
S2: and memorize it and think about how does this reveal
S2: the heart of God to me? Just meditating on that
S2: one verse you might spend. I did this last year.
S2: I spent a whole year in the sermon on the Mount,
S2: and I would listen to those three chapters morning by morning,
S2: just letting those words wash over me. Um, I love
S2: that God invites us to come to him the way
S2: that he created us to. And so some of us
S2: are auditory learners and some of us are visual learners,
S2: and some of us are kinesthetic learners. And so what
S2: what works for me, the way that I learn is
S2: going to be different than the way my friend Amanda
S2: or Melissa learns. So why would I impose on them
S2: a certain standard of oh, this is what you must do,
S2: or this is what good Christians do? If that's not
S2: in Scripture, then we're treading on legalistic ground there. We're
S2: starting to put on other people a burden that was
S2: never from God. So I think what he invites us
S2: to is this glorious invitation with open hands, Jesus saying,
S2: come to me. Come to me. And and if you
S2: don't know how to do that, if you feel like, well,
S2: I've tried all these different ways that work for different people,
S2: and I feel like it doesn't really work for me.
S2: Then I invite listeners to ask God, ask him to
S2: show you, how did you create me to connect with you?
S2: How did you create me to experience your love? Maybe
S2: it's going for a walk in the forest and talking
S2: to God out in nature. Maybe that's how you feel
S2: closest to God. Or. Or maybe it's gathering with others
S2: in corporate worship and singing your heart out, or sitting
S2: quietly at the piano at home and playing some worship
S2: songs to the Lord. There are so many different ways
S2: that God invites us to come to Him in Jesus Christ.
S2: I think as the body of Christ, we can do
S2: a better job celebrating that diversity and the variety, rather
S2: than comparing and trying to force people into a box
S2: that never came from the Lord.
S1: Thanks for joining us today for the Building Relationships with
S1: Doctor Gary Chapman podcast. Gary's the author of the New
S1: York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. You can
S1: find out more about your love language or our featured
S1: resource by going to Building relationships.us. You'll see a link
S1: there to the book by our guest, doctor Bob Paul.
S1: It's titled Empowered to Love Discovering your God given Power
S1: to create a marriage you both love. Just go to
S1: building relationships.
S4: Us I Cherita you talk about devotional personalities and personality types.
S4: How do you find out your devotional personality type?
S2: Well, that's a great question, Gary, and I'll be the
S2: first to say that I don't have, like the authoritative
S2: manual on this. It comes more so from my experience
S2: of shepherding people throughout the last ten, 12 years. And
S2: also I've learned a lot from Gary Thomas and his book,
S2: Sacred Pathways, that different people connect to God in different ways.
S2: And so as I've kind of been working on this
S2: topic and thinking about delighting in the Lord and the
S2: different ways that we can delight in him, I found
S2: that people tend to fall in one of these five
S2: general categories. I'll say like primary, devotional, personality type. I
S2: think we all can feel close to God in these ways,
S2: but you might be more likely to connect with one
S2: than the other, so I'll go through them. But if
S2: listeners are curious, we actually put together a quiz called
S2: the Devotional Personality Type Quiz. It's absolutely free. Listeners can
S2: find it at Delighting Angieslist.com. And we've had over 30,000
S2: people take this quiz over the last couple of years.
S2: So we've seen these results pan out again and again.
S2: But I'll say that the five types that I find
S2: people tend to relate to or lean into is those
S2: who feel close to God in worship. I mentioned earlier
S2: singing corporately or playing songs of of worship or hymns
S2: at home. There's just something about song and more so
S2: than song. Feeling like everything they do is an act
S2: of worship and adoration, delighting in the heart of God.
S2: So that would be our our radiant worshippers there, those
S2: who feel close to God through the word and I.
S2: I'm one of these. I affectionately call us word nerds.
S2: When I learn something new about God in Scripture, my
S2: whole face lights up. I feel like God just gave
S2: me a nugget, an insight into who he is, and I.
S2: I feel his love toward me. I feel his personal
S2: revelation in Scripture. I love delighting in his revelation in
S2: the word. And so there are people who will feel
S2: close to God that way. We've got word nerds and
S2: such a fun group. We could talk to you for
S2: three hours about one theological concept and never tire out. Um,
S2: and then we have those who feel close to God
S2: in prayer, and I call these people the Whisperers. Um,
S2: it's because there are in ongoing, continual conversation with the Lord,
S2: whether it's in their quiet time with their prayer journal
S2: and their bringing to God requests and interceding on behalf
S2: of others, or they're praying as they're washing dishes, they're
S2: praying as they're running errands, they just have a heart
S2: posture of ongoing whispers with heaven. And also, these are
S2: those who are more likely to hear God's voice whispering
S2: back to them. I talked about the good Shepherd who
S2: speaks to his sheep, and they hear his voice. They
S2: recognize his voice. These are the people that you want
S2: to go to and have in your life. When you
S2: need intercession, when you need discernment, when you need someone to.
S2: Would you beseech God with me? And what you'll notice
S2: about all of these devotional personality types is they are
S2: all needed in the body of Christ. So we need
S2: to celebrate that we have word nerds and whisperers and worshipers,
S2: but we can all grow in these rhythms as well.
S2: It's just I think one of them might come easier,
S2: or it might be dominant in our lives than others.
S2: So we got the worshippers, the word nerds, the whisperers.
S2: We have what I call the wonder chasers. And these
S2: are those who feel closest to God when they experience
S2: awe and wonder. It might be standing on a beach
S2: and watching the waves crash in and just sensing the
S2: grandeur of God and their own smallness. And it's in
S2: that moment that they feel like they have this mountaintop
S2: experience with God. It might be that they stand on
S2: their front porch with a mug of coffee, watching the
S2: sun rise or set and saying, oh, the beauty and
S2: wonder of a creator who can paint the skies this way.
S2: These are people who walk through life with eyes wide open.
S2: And they see wonder wherever they go. They seem to
S2: retain that childlike admiration for the fingerprints of God throughout
S2: their lives, and not just nature, but in their own life.
S2: They'll be the first ones to say you'll never guess
S2: what God did. It feels like God's always moving in
S2: their lives in a powerful way, and it's more so
S2: that they're just awake to the wonder that God has
S2: placed in each of our lives. So those are the
S2: wonder chasers. And then the last ones, I'll say, are
S2: those who feel predominantly delight in God, or sense his
S2: presence and his delight in them as they walk out
S2: obedience with God. So these are the the obedient walkers.
S2: They're the ones who you might hear them say, well,
S2: God's Spirit told me to call that person or God's
S2: Spirit really just impressed on my heart that I need
S2: to do this thing or I need to move in
S2: this way. And there's just this sense in which they
S2: are walking in step with the spirit. They're knowing where
S2: God is moving in the room, where he's moving in
S2: the world, and they're joining him in what feels like
S2: such a personal way. And these are the ones who
S2: are most likely to be active in the church, in
S2: the community, they're more likely to be activists, to seek justice,
S2: to to want to see God's kingdom come in the world.
S2: They're not content with just reading their Bible and praying
S2: and keeping their faith to themselves. They want to see
S2: it move out into the world. So they're walking in
S2: obedience with God in their own personal life and and
S2: sometimes in a bigger way, too. So we have these
S2: five devotional personality types, ways in which we experience God's
S2: delight in us, and we delight in him in in return.
S2: And I would argue, all of us need all of these.
S2: Like we all need to be in the word. We
S2: all need to experience the gifts of God through wonder
S2: and delight in his heart through worship. I think Jesus,
S2: when we look at the Gospels, he lived out all
S2: of these rhythms of delight as well. But I'm sure
S2: even as listeners, we're we're hearing me talk about these
S2: five devotional types Hopes that they might find themselves kind
S2: of gravitating toward one. So my encouragement would be, if
S2: you're like, ah, I'm not sure which one is mine. Um,
S2: there's that quiz that you can take, but also if
S2: you feel like you're in a dry place spiritually, if
S2: you feel like, gosh, I'm doing all the things, I'm
S2: reading my Bible and going to church and praying, and
S2: I just don't sense God's delight. Maybe he's inviting you
S2: to lean into that one primary way that he wants
S2: to express his delight toward you. Maybe it's time for
S2: more walks outside, or it's time to really dig into Scripture.
S2: That might be God's invitation to delight for you. Today.
S4: I think our listeners can identify with what you're saying there,
S4: so let me encourage you. If you're listening, go to
S4: that website Delighting in jesus.com and take that quiz, I
S4: thank you. I think you'll find it helpful, but let
S4: me change the subject. A.W. Tozer said that what comes
S4: into our minds when we think about God is the
S4: most important thing about us. Now you see that a
S4: little differently. How would you respond to that idea?
S2: Well, I really love that quote by A.W. Tozer, actually.
S2: And I see his point. I think how we view
S2: God is so important, but it's actually I stumbled on
S2: a quote by C.S. Lewis, actually, that he disagrees with A.W.
S2: Tozer on this, and I found that exchange fascinating in
S2: that I would say Lewis agrees. Yes, that what we
S2: think about God is important. But Lewis would say What
S2: God thinks about us is infinitely more important. We need
S2: to think about what is God's posture toward us. Is
S2: he an angry God? I mean, one of the most
S2: influential sermons in American history is Jonathan Edwards Sinners in
S2: the Hands of an Angry God. And in my own life, I.
S2: I grew up thinking that God's primary disposition toward me
S2: was one of expectation and, by implication, disappointment, that that
S2: God had such high hopes for me. And here I go,
S2: sinning again. Here I go, falling into the same temptation.
S2: He must be so disappointed. He must be so angry.
S2: And I think Tozer would agree in this that we
S2: often type our view of God on our experience of
S2: our own fathers. How we experience our fathers is often
S2: how we view God. And so if we had fathers
S2: who were angry, we're more likely to think that God
S2: is angry. If we had fathers who would set aside
S2: what they were working on to turn toward us. When
S2: we walked in the room to greet us with compassion
S2: and excitement, if they wanted to listen to what we
S2: had to say about our day, then we're more likely
S2: to think that God's disposition toward us is that he
S2: wants to hear from us, that he's eager to to
S2: listen in prayer. So I think, yes, it's important how
S2: we view God. And I think there's good work for
S2: us to do to unpack how much of our theology
S2: and how we view God is scriptural, and how much
S2: of it is just what we've inherited from our culture
S2: or our own experience growing up. But I would agree
S2: with Lewis. I think more important is how God views us.
S2: Is God's disposition toward us one of pity, one of
S2: anger or disappointment, or is it something else? And this
S2: was just such an incredible journey for me to go
S2: through Scripture to study this theme from Genesis to Revelation.
S2: I actually went through and read through the Bible. Not
S2: in a year. It took like 18 months for this project,
S2: but I read through the Bible cover to cover, underlining
S2: every single time the words joy or happiness or delight
S2: or celebration showed up. Actually, one of the Hebrew words
S2: for Blessed Asher is also translated happy. It means a
S2: profound happiness is what? Blessed means. So I would look
S2: up those verses and cross-references as well. And as I
S2: did this deep dive into the theme of joy and
S2: happiness in Scripture, what I found is that God's disposition
S2: toward us is not one of pity. It's not one
S2: of anger or judgment, but rather the Lord, the Lord,
S2: compassionate and gracious and kind, that he has toward us
S2: a heart of love and joy and delight, that again
S2: and again that is who God presents himself to be.
S2: He says, I don't delight in the death of the wicked.
S2: I don't delight in punishing my children. Even discipline comes
S2: from a heart of love and a longing to restore
S2: to that place of joy and fulfillment. And I think
S2: when we understand God this way, when we think God
S2: actually cares about our joy. God actually longs for us
S2: to experience the fullness of joy in his presence. That
S2: changes then how we engage in these spiritual disciplines. It
S2: changes how we set goals for our year. It changes
S2: how we make decisions because then we want to experience
S2: that love, the love of a God who delights in us.
S2: I think it makes all the difference.
S4: Actually, many people view the Old Testament as a god
S4: of anger and the New Testament a God of love.
S4: How do you respond to that?
S2: Yeah. Well, again, if we take that to Scripture and say, well,
S2: what does the Bible say? Does the Bible present God
S2: as an angry, vengeful God in the Old Testament? Is
S2: that true? And what we find is exactly the opposite.
S2: There are hundreds of references to the God who delights
S2: just a few of them, like Psalm 149, the Lord
S2: takes pleasure in his people. He adorns the humble with salvation.
S2: Psalm 18. He brought me out to a spacious place.
S2: He rescued me because he delighted in me. Luke 15
S2: I tell you, in the same way there will be
S2: more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than
S2: over 99 righteous people who don't need repentance. That is
S2: God the Father who is celebrating the return of his children.
S2: Zephaniah 317 the Lord your God is among you, a
S2: warrior who saves. He will rejoice over you with gladness.
S2: He will be quiet in his love. He will delight
S2: in you with singing. And here's the thing we cannot
S2: say that the Old Testament God is an angry God.
S2: And the New Testament Jesus is a loving and kind
S2: Jesus because they are one and the same. Jesus is
S2: God the Father. Jesus and the Holy Spirit share in
S2: these characteristics of love and joy and delight. In fact,
S2: when Jesus came on the scene, he came to make
S2: manifest God. He came to show us the heart of
S2: the father. So what we see in Jesus, the one
S2: who describes himself as gentle and humble in heart, the
S2: one who opens up his arms and says to the children,
S2: come to me like, let the children come to me. Don't,
S2: don't stop them. The one who enjoyed a good party
S2: and the one who would look out on on the
S2: landscape and say, look at the birds of the air.
S2: Look at the lilies of the field, that Jesus, that
S2: is who the father is revealed to be, because Jesus
S2: revealed to us the heart of the father. And so
S2: the father then is the one who delights. I just
S2: think we need to work so hard to hold on
S2: to this image of an angry, vengeful God when we
S2: read Scripture because the story from Genesis to Revelation is
S2: the heart of a good God who longs to bring
S2: his people and restore them back to relationship with him,
S2: so they are one in the same. The God who
S2: created humans longs to be in relationship, longs to restore
S2: joy and delight. And when we look at revelation, it
S2: is the promise of that, that joy fulfilled. It is
S2: the promise that from Genesis what the God of the
S2: Old Testament promised and what the Jesus of the New
S2: Testament came to reveal that in revelation it will finally
S2: be fulfilled. God will once again dwell with his people,
S2: and we will be his people, and he will be
S2: our God. And we will finally experience the the longing,
S2: the fulfillment of that longing and what Jesus describes as
S2: a wedding. It's going to be a celebration. It's going
S2: to be a party. That is what the God the
S2: Father and Jesus the Son and the Spirit of God
S2: in us are all working toward that part of the story,
S2: when all our hopes will finally be fulfilled in him.
S4: Ashreeta much in your new book combines recent brain science
S4: with deep biblical study. What does scientific discoveries have to
S4: do with learning to delight in Jesus?
S2: That's such a great question, Gary. And it's part of
S2: what's been the most fun research for this book, is
S2: learning how God wired our brains, created our brains for joy. Uh,
S2: and and what we're learning from brain science doesn't at
S2: all contradict Scripture. If anything, God is the one who
S2: created our brains. So what scientists are learning about neural pathways,
S2: and a lot that I would love to share just
S2: so much about this. But I just want to say like,
S2: this is God's very good idea. And part of what
S2: was just fascinating to me to learn was that God
S2: created a part of our brains to be kind of
S2: the Joy center. It's the right frontal cortex. It's right
S2: above our right eyeball. And this is the place where
S2: we can experience peace. We make rational decisions, we experience
S2: joy and goodness and balance. And then there's another part
S2: of our brain, the amygdala. It's kind of in the
S2: back of our head that triggers our fight or flight response.
S2: It's where we experience stress. And so when we're scrolling
S2: our phones and there's bad news, when there's comparison, when
S2: we're just kind of in that doom scroll mode, or
S2: when we experience stress in our lives and our families
S2: and our bodies, we will respond out of the amygdala.
S2: And both of these parts of our brains will flood
S2: our bodies with hormones. But what we've learned in recent
S2: years is we are spending so much time in the amygdala,
S2: we're spending so much time in that stressful part of
S2: our brains that we're having a hard time coming out
S2: of that. We're seeing increasing levels of depression and anxiety
S2: and sleeplessness and insomnia. So many concerns about our mental
S2: health and our physical health because we're living out of
S2: the amygdala. And what I've learned is it doesn't have
S2: to be that way. I personally found myself stuck in
S2: the amygdala going back to the beginning of the interview,
S2: when I said I found myself in that dark place.
S2: That's where I was. And I share more about that
S2: in in this book. But what brought me such hope
S2: is we don't have to be stuck there just because
S2: we find ourselves repeating patterns of pessimism or criticism or
S2: bitterness or hopelessness or anxiety. We don't have to live
S2: that way. God created our brains with the ability to
S2: renew and rewire, and this is called neuroplasticity. The more
S2: we repeat something, the easier it will become for our brains.
S2: And so one way I call it the joy pathway.
S2: One way for us to get from the amygdala in
S2: the back of the brain, back to the right frontal cortex.
S2: That joy center is through the rhythms that I share
S2: in the book. Things like having our eyes open to
S2: thank God for the good things in our lives. Celebrating
S2: what we're learning about Jesus in Scripture. Even something as
S2: simple as going for a walk in the morning and
S2: allowing the sunshine to fill our lives with good things. Actually,
S2: the the morning sun rays do something in our brains
S2: where it helps set our circadian rhythm. I mean, all
S2: of these might sound like, okay. Ashreeta what's the point here?
S2: What's what's the connection is that all of these things
S2: are simple habits that God gives us to restore joy.
S2: And in my own life, as I started practicing these
S2: simple joy, habits, rhythms of delight, ways in which to
S2: receive the delight of God in my life. He started
S2: rewiring my brain, and I found myself spending less time
S2: in the amygdala, less time stressed and sorrowful, and more
S2: time in a place of peace and tranquility and joy.
S2: And all of that is possible because of how God
S2: created our brains. And so this brain science that we're learning,
S2: that I've based the whole of my book, these rhythms
S2: of delight are based on brain science. And the Bible
S2: is just saying, okay, this is what scientists are discovering,
S2: and they're not quite sure what to do with it.
S2: And yet God invites us to take what we're learning
S2: in science and combine it with what he's shown us
S2: in Scripture. And then that's how he's going to restore
S2: our joy. That's how he's going to heal our bodies
S2: and our hearts and our minds and our spirits. Those
S2: who look to him for help, Psalm 34 says, will
S2: be radiant with joy. No shadow of shame will darken
S2: their faces. And that's what he has done in my life,
S2: is what I want to shout from the rooftops. I
S2: think it's the work that he wants to do in
S2: our generation. And so that is my invitation to those
S2: who are listening. Would you ask God to restore joy
S2: in your life? He's going to do it through your brain.
S2: He's going to do it through your life. He's going
S2: to do it through community, through the local church, through Scripture.
S2: But that is his heart posture to invite us to
S2: delight in him.
S4: Let's read. I think our listeners can identify with that.
S4: And let me just thank you for being with us today.
S4: Delighting in Jesus. And I believe this book is going
S4: to help a lot of people do just that. So
S4: thank you again for writing the book. Thank you for
S4: being with us today on building relationships.
S2: Thank you so much for having me, Gary. It's been
S2: my joy to be here, and I so appreciate the
S2: work that you've done that has led to more of
S2: experiencing God's love in my own life. Thank you.
S3: A delightful guest today On building relationships, Asher read his book.
S3: One of the reviews says this her words are a
S3: cool breeze on a sweltering day. I hope that's happened
S3: in your heart as you've listened today. Go to building
S3: relationships us. You'll see more about delighting in Jesus rhythms
S3: to restore joy. When you feel burdened, broken, or burned
S3: out again, go to Building Relationships. Dot us.
S4: And next week, if you have a struggle in parenting
S4: an adult child, don't miss our conversation.
S1: Doctor Chapman shares wisdom on your new life with your
S1: adult children in one week. Our thanks to our production
S1: team Steve Wick and Janice. Backing building relationships with Doctor
S1: Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association
S1: with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
UU: Thanks for listening.