1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 S1: Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,160 S1: downloading this podcast, and I hope you hear something that 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,560 S1: will really encourage and edify you. But before you start 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,400 S1: to listen, let me take a moment of your time 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,399 S1: and tell you about this month's truth tool. It's called 6 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,640 S1: secure How to Have a Healthy Attachment to God. And 7 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,360 S1: it follows that very often, whatever our relationship is like 8 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,000 S1: with authority figures, predominantly our parents, we somehow transferred to 9 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,040 S1: how we see God. So if we have an angry parent, 10 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,319 S1: he's an angry God. If it's a distant parent, he's 11 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,520 S1: a God who's not there. I think it's important we 12 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,680 S1: understand who God really is. And in this wonderful book 13 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,760 S1: called secure, you're going to discover the character of God 14 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,120 S1: and how deeply in love God is with you. It's 15 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,839 S1: our truth tool. Our truth tools are my way of 16 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,680 S1: saying thank you because we are listener supported radio. So 17 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,600 S1: if you'd like a copy of secure, just call eight 7758. 18 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,760 S1: That's eight 7758. Give a gift of any amount. My 19 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,840 S1: way of saying thank you for supporting the program is 20 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,000 S1: I'll send you a copy of secure. You can also 21 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,480 S1: do this online at In the Market with Janet Parshall. 22 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,560 S1: Scroll to the bottom of the page. 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So 33 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,399 S1: either way, thank you in advance for prayerfully considering the 34 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,680 S1: opportunity to financially support in the market with Janet partial 35 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:32,720 S1: and keeping it on the air. Now, I hope you 36 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,840 S1: hear something that will encourage you to get out and 37 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:43,920 S1: influence and occupy in the marketplace of ideas. Hi friends, 38 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,120 S1: this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for choosing to 39 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,400 S1: spend the next hour with us. Today's program is prerecorded 40 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,520 S1: so our phone lines are not open. But thanks so 41 00:01:51,520 --> 00:02:14,000 S1: much for being with us and enjoy the broadcast. The 42 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,560 S1: hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this 43 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,560 S1: that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, 44 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,200 S1: and more than wicked that has not gratitude enough to 45 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:33,360 S1: acknowledge his obligations. George Washington, the 20th of August, 1778. Hello, friends. 46 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,079 S1: Welcome to In the Market. I am your host, Janet partial. 47 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,240 S1: It's an ongoing and quite honestly, fascinating discussion. Who were 48 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,720 S1: the founders? Deists. Theist. Did believe in God, didn't believe 49 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,560 S1: in God, believed in the separation of church and state. 50 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,280 S1: Were antagonistic toward the concept of faith and religion. Did pray. 51 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,600 S1: Didn't pray. Owned slaves, therefore couldn't be perfect men. and 52 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,560 S1: the eyes begin to glaze over. So how about we 53 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,560 S1: take the next hour to discover exactly who those gentlemen 54 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,399 S1: were and whether or not we can? In fact, in 55 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,480 S1: the words of George Washington, see the hand of Providence 56 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:17,840 S1: in the establishment of this nation. That's our conversation this hour. 1877548367518775483675. 57 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,480 S1: Rod Greg is with us. He's the author of 16 58 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,000 S1: books on American history. I'd say this is a fellow 59 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,680 S1: who likes history. And what a delight that he's going 60 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,160 S1: to spend the hour with us. He wrote a book 61 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,800 S1: called forged in Faith. It's about George Washington. In fact, 62 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,920 S1: the book was nominated for the prestigious George Washington Book Prize. 63 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,720 S1: He also studied the Battle of Gettysburg, wrote about it 64 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,600 S1: in a book called covered with glory, and that won 65 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,160 S1: him a prize for the best Civil War book of 66 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,720 S1: the year, and also Confederate Goliath, the Battle of Fort Fisher, 67 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,440 S1: that earned him yet again another prize, and then was 68 00:03:53,590 --> 00:03:57,110 S1: adapted into a PBS documentary that'll tell you something about 69 00:03:57,110 --> 00:04:00,670 S1: the caliber of his writing as a historian. And wouldn't 70 00:04:00,670 --> 00:04:02,550 S1: you love to be in his classes? Because he's currently 71 00:04:02,550 --> 00:04:05,270 S1: the director of the center for Military and Veteran Studies 72 00:04:05,270 --> 00:04:09,190 S1: at Coastal Carolina University in South Carolina. He serves there 73 00:04:09,190 --> 00:04:12,750 S1: as a lecturer and adjunct professor of history. Rod, I 74 00:04:12,790 --> 00:04:15,270 S1: am delighted that you are giving us the gift of 75 00:04:15,270 --> 00:04:17,830 S1: your time this hour, as well as the insight that 76 00:04:17,830 --> 00:04:20,270 S1: you have gleaned in studying America's history. And so my 77 00:04:20,270 --> 00:04:22,790 S1: first question actually has to be what made you fall 78 00:04:22,790 --> 00:04:25,429 S1: in love with history? For some people, it's like dusty 79 00:04:25,470 --> 00:04:28,070 S1: old books don't see any relevance, have no interest. Why 80 00:04:28,070 --> 00:04:29,150 S1: do you love history? 81 00:04:29,589 --> 00:04:31,990 S2: Well, I appreciate that. That was a that was a 82 00:04:32,029 --> 00:04:36,830 S2: fascinating introduction. I would tell you that, um, I, you know, 83 00:04:36,830 --> 00:04:38,630 S2: I find it really hard to believe how anybody can 84 00:04:38,630 --> 00:04:41,030 S2: not like history, but I guess that we've all kind 85 00:04:41,070 --> 00:04:43,990 S2: of had a few of those history teachers that somehow 86 00:04:44,029 --> 00:04:47,670 S2: managed to make it boring, but to me, it's never that. 87 00:04:47,710 --> 00:04:50,710 S2: I think the answer to your question is that, uh, 88 00:04:50,710 --> 00:04:53,110 S2: I had parents who were great readers and they loved history. 89 00:04:53,150 --> 00:04:56,150 S2: My grandfather owned property on a Civil War battlefield, so 90 00:04:56,150 --> 00:04:59,950 S2: I grew up there kicking up cannonball fragments and mini balls. 91 00:05:00,270 --> 00:05:03,630 S2: And so the history bug bit me at an early age. 92 00:05:04,589 --> 00:05:06,510 S1: Wow. And it stayed with you ever since. 93 00:05:06,589 --> 00:05:07,550 S2: Well, it has. Yeah. 94 00:05:07,589 --> 00:05:09,750 S1: That's neat. All right. Let me ask you a phenomena 95 00:05:09,750 --> 00:05:12,750 S1: that we're seeing. And maybe, maybe it's been around there 96 00:05:12,750 --> 00:05:14,550 S1: for a long time, but maybe there's a kind of 97 00:05:14,589 --> 00:05:16,710 S1: quickening in the heart of a lot of Americans now 98 00:05:16,710 --> 00:05:19,870 S1: where there wasn't perhaps before. And that is too often 99 00:05:19,870 --> 00:05:22,190 S1: when we talk about history. Now, there's a nasty little 100 00:05:22,190 --> 00:05:26,150 S1: word that precedes it called revisionist history, which seems in 101 00:05:26,150 --> 00:05:28,750 S1: many respects to be a kind of. I've already arrived 102 00:05:28,750 --> 00:05:31,310 S1: at my conclusion. I'll just make the facts fit my 103 00:05:31,310 --> 00:05:36,190 S1: conclusion as opposed to objective, factual reporting. It's a leading question. 104 00:05:36,190 --> 00:05:38,270 S1: It would be struck by opposing counsel, but I'll ask 105 00:05:38,270 --> 00:05:40,630 S1: it anyway. What category do you fall in? 106 00:05:40,670 --> 00:05:43,990 S2: You know, I'm no revisionist by the contemporary meaning of 107 00:05:44,029 --> 00:05:46,190 S2: that term, but I will tell you that, you know, 108 00:05:46,230 --> 00:05:49,469 S2: history is constantly being reexamined, and that's a good thing. 109 00:05:49,870 --> 00:05:52,510 S2: And you weigh the evidence and you look at it, 110 00:05:52,510 --> 00:05:56,909 S2: and there's actually a history of history called historiography. And 111 00:05:57,029 --> 00:05:59,990 S2: you look at, for instance, a topic like the Civil War. 112 00:05:59,990 --> 00:06:02,990 S2: And you see that it's been reported by historians would 113 00:06:02,990 --> 00:06:06,030 S2: kind of a different focus over different eras based on 114 00:06:06,029 --> 00:06:08,349 S2: what was going on at the time of those historians 115 00:06:08,350 --> 00:06:12,150 S2: wrote it. Now, to me, that's not good, because what 116 00:06:12,150 --> 00:06:14,670 S2: you want to do is base your history on, uh, 117 00:06:14,670 --> 00:06:18,470 S2: on the evidence itself. And everyone, whether in this profession, 118 00:06:18,470 --> 00:06:21,469 S2: whether you're historian or whether you're a journalist, if you 119 00:06:21,470 --> 00:06:24,229 S2: have a story to tell, you want to weigh the facts, 120 00:06:24,270 --> 00:06:26,150 S2: you want to marshal your evidence, you want to tell 121 00:06:26,150 --> 00:06:29,790 S2: your story, and you want to put aside whatever bias 122 00:06:29,790 --> 00:06:32,630 S2: you have. And we all have those, because the mark 123 00:06:32,630 --> 00:06:35,790 S2: of a professional is to be able to accurately report 124 00:06:35,790 --> 00:06:39,029 S2: the story. And I was a reporter before I was 125 00:06:39,029 --> 00:06:43,190 S2: a historian beginning back in high school. So, you know, 126 00:06:43,230 --> 00:06:46,990 S2: my focus is to try. My agenda is to tell 127 00:06:47,029 --> 00:06:48,270 S2: historical truth. 128 00:06:48,790 --> 00:06:51,150 S1: That's excellent. And that's important, I think, as we start 129 00:06:51,150 --> 00:06:54,150 S1: our conversation. All right. Let me go to the title 130 00:06:54,150 --> 00:06:55,830 S1: of your book, which is superb, by the way, by 131 00:06:55,830 --> 00:06:59,910 S1: the Hand of Providence How Faith Shaped the American Revolution. 132 00:06:59,950 --> 00:07:01,670 S1: You begin the book with a quote that I read, 133 00:07:01,670 --> 00:07:04,830 S1: and this is Washington speaking. So a general question, if 134 00:07:04,830 --> 00:07:06,510 S1: I may, as we begin, and that is some people 135 00:07:06,510 --> 00:07:10,350 S1: might say, well, it was a kind of societal recognition 136 00:07:10,350 --> 00:07:14,390 S1: of God and a kind of nicety that was there then. 137 00:07:14,390 --> 00:07:17,470 S1: That's not here now. Now there's an antagonism that perhaps 138 00:07:17,470 --> 00:07:20,750 S1: there wasn't back in the late 1700s, or was there 139 00:07:20,750 --> 00:07:26,230 S1: rather a real sincere commitment on the part of George Washington? 140 00:07:26,230 --> 00:07:28,550 S1: And we'll start specifically with him, because that is his 141 00:07:28,550 --> 00:07:30,550 S1: quote about the recognition of Providence. 142 00:07:31,110 --> 00:07:34,550 S2: Well, yes, I think that Washington is a is a 143 00:07:34,550 --> 00:07:39,990 S2: good starting point. And I think that Washington is has, uh, 144 00:07:40,590 --> 00:07:44,790 S2: throughout history, fascinated so many people. And you cannot overestimate 145 00:07:44,790 --> 00:07:48,390 S2: his impact on the American Revolution. And the question is, 146 00:07:48,990 --> 00:07:51,470 S2: where did Washington stand as far as his faith? I 147 00:07:51,470 --> 00:07:55,110 S2: think that's what you're asking me. And, you know, today, 148 00:07:55,110 --> 00:07:58,070 S2: you see, Washington's faith kind of pulled in two directions 149 00:07:58,070 --> 00:08:01,310 S2: and kind of squeezed into a box on either side, 150 00:08:01,310 --> 00:08:04,470 S2: and it really doesn't fit very well. Some try to 151 00:08:04,470 --> 00:08:07,270 S2: say try to picture him or think some for some reason, 152 00:08:07,270 --> 00:08:09,550 S2: that he should speak and write like a modern day 153 00:08:09,590 --> 00:08:14,390 S2: conservative evangelical Christian, which is what I consider myself to be. 154 00:08:14,790 --> 00:08:17,950 S2: And he doesn't fit in that mold because that's not 155 00:08:17,950 --> 00:08:21,950 S2: his vernacular. He was a low church Anglican of the 156 00:08:21,950 --> 00:08:26,790 S2: 18th century. He was reserved by nature, and so his writings, 157 00:08:26,790 --> 00:08:29,990 S2: which were voluminous, reflect a lot of faith. But we 158 00:08:29,990 --> 00:08:33,189 S2: shouldn't look for a modern vernacular in those writings. Now, 159 00:08:33,190 --> 00:08:36,790 S2: on the other side, today it's become fashionable in some 160 00:08:36,790 --> 00:08:40,110 S2: circles to try to make Washington into a deist, into 161 00:08:40,110 --> 00:08:42,510 S2: a humanist, into some kind of secularist, or say that 162 00:08:42,510 --> 00:08:45,950 S2: he just really wasn't a serious about faith, and he 163 00:08:45,950 --> 00:08:49,910 S2: doesn't fit in that box at all. Washington was not 164 00:08:50,110 --> 00:08:54,870 S2: Sam Adams. Sam Adams was called the last Puritan. Washington 165 00:08:54,870 --> 00:08:57,870 S2: wouldn't sit down at a dinner table and engage or 166 00:08:57,870 --> 00:09:01,230 S2: start some type of theological discussion. That was not his, 167 00:09:01,350 --> 00:09:04,110 S2: his nature, nor was it the nature of his low 168 00:09:04,110 --> 00:09:08,069 S2: church Anglican faith. However, that doesn't mean that he wasn't 169 00:09:08,070 --> 00:09:11,670 S2: serious about his faith, and he very much was. And 170 00:09:11,670 --> 00:09:14,189 S2: you can see that by the evidence of what he 171 00:09:14,190 --> 00:09:14,949 S2: said and did. 172 00:09:16,670 --> 00:09:19,030 S1: What a great place for us to take our first break. 173 00:09:19,030 --> 00:09:21,150 S1: And this gives you a sense of what our conversation 174 00:09:21,150 --> 00:09:22,750 S1: is going to sound like this hour. So I hope 175 00:09:22,750 --> 00:09:24,870 S1: you're going to stay with us. We have the privilege 176 00:09:24,870 --> 00:09:27,310 S1: of visiting with Rod Gregg. He's the author of By 177 00:09:27,309 --> 00:09:32,109 S1: the Hand of Providence How Faith Shaped the American Revolution. 178 00:09:32,110 --> 00:10:11,660 S1: We welcome your questions at 1-877-548-3675. Did faith shape the 179 00:10:11,660 --> 00:10:14,940 S1: American Revolution? That's our question this hour, and it's going 180 00:10:14,940 --> 00:10:17,740 S1: to be answered by Rod Gregg, who wrote a marvelous 181 00:10:17,740 --> 00:10:20,380 S1: book called By the Hand of Providence that I think 182 00:10:20,380 --> 00:10:27,260 S1: will answer that question definitively. 18775675. And I think it's important, 183 00:10:27,300 --> 00:10:31,700 S1: you know, Scripture talks about God's infusion into the course 184 00:10:31,700 --> 00:10:34,060 S1: of history. So why do we think that somehow it 185 00:10:34,059 --> 00:10:39,460 S1: didn't happen in the establishment of this young nation as well? 18775675. 186 00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:42,819 S1: Greg is driving along the highways and byways in Indiana, 187 00:10:42,820 --> 00:10:46,059 S1: and he's allowed rod and myself to drive along with you. So, Greg, 188 00:10:46,059 --> 00:10:47,980 S1: I welcome you and your question, please. 189 00:10:48,660 --> 00:10:52,540 S3: Hi, Janet. Thanks for taking my call. Um, my question 190 00:10:52,540 --> 00:10:57,100 S3: is along the lines of, you know, biblical authority. The 191 00:10:57,100 --> 00:11:00,300 S3: Bible teaches that we are to submit to the government 192 00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:04,340 S3: that God has put in place. So how do we 193 00:11:04,340 --> 00:11:08,860 S3: reconcile that with the fact that the founders, uh, actually 194 00:11:08,860 --> 00:11:11,500 S3: made war with, with, with the government that God had 195 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:14,100 S3: put in authority over us in England? 196 00:11:14,340 --> 00:11:17,620 S2: Well, that's an excellent question, Greg. And that's what the 197 00:11:17,660 --> 00:11:21,300 S2: American people struggled with on the eve of the American Revolution. 198 00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:26,700 S2: And as things came apart and as the tensions became warfare, 199 00:11:27,140 --> 00:11:29,740 S2: that was the issue. You put your finger right on it. 200 00:11:29,740 --> 00:11:32,780 S2: And to tell you the quick answer to that, let 201 00:11:32,780 --> 00:11:36,980 S2: me give you some background. The you recall that the 202 00:11:36,980 --> 00:11:41,260 S2: American colonies were established by English people in the 1600s. Well, 203 00:11:41,260 --> 00:11:45,179 S2: this occurred in the wake of England undergoing a great 204 00:11:45,179 --> 00:11:49,980 S2: revival of Christianity called English Reformation, and the English Reformation 205 00:11:49,980 --> 00:11:52,580 S2: put the Bible in the English language in the hands 206 00:11:52,580 --> 00:11:55,340 S2: of the common man for the first time, and it 207 00:11:55,340 --> 00:11:58,700 S2: turned the nation upside down. The great English historian John 208 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:01,540 S2: Richard Green said in his words, the whole nation became 209 00:12:01,540 --> 00:12:04,380 S2: a church, and it was in that atmosphere, in that 210 00:12:04,380 --> 00:12:08,819 S2: time and place, that the English colonists began spilling into America. 211 00:12:08,820 --> 00:12:12,700 S2: And they brought with them that foundational faith, that belief 212 00:12:12,700 --> 00:12:17,100 S2: in the Judeo-Christian worldview. Now, uh, you had those who 213 00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:19,179 S2: were devout, you had those who were nominal, you had 214 00:12:19,179 --> 00:12:24,460 S2: those who were disinterested. But the foundational faith that became 215 00:12:24,460 --> 00:12:28,260 S2: the foundation of culture, law and government in the colonies 216 00:12:28,260 --> 00:12:32,260 S2: was the Judeo-Christian worldview. And when that faith began, that 217 00:12:32,260 --> 00:12:35,900 S2: that flame of faith began to flicker a bit in 218 00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:39,940 S2: the early 1700s. Then a revival swept America like the 219 00:12:39,940 --> 00:12:42,780 S2: one that swept England called the Great Awakening. And it 220 00:12:42,780 --> 00:12:47,459 S2: restored those fundamentals of of faith so that the American people, 221 00:12:47,460 --> 00:12:50,780 S2: on the eve of the revolution were founded in faith. 222 00:12:50,780 --> 00:12:56,540 S2: It was the overwhelming, dominating worldview of American culture in 223 00:12:56,580 --> 00:13:01,140 S2: that day. And they were biblically literate people. So they 224 00:13:01,140 --> 00:13:03,580 S2: looked at this issue that you talked about, and because 225 00:13:03,580 --> 00:13:06,820 S2: they believed in submission to authority as something that was 226 00:13:06,820 --> 00:13:09,420 S2: taught in Scripture, but they also believed in what was 227 00:13:09,420 --> 00:13:12,260 S2: known in the day as the higher law. And they 228 00:13:12,260 --> 00:13:16,620 S2: believed that man's law should never usurp the higher law 229 00:13:16,620 --> 00:13:19,939 S2: of God. And over a period of time, and this 230 00:13:19,940 --> 00:13:25,420 S2: took a while, Americans increasingly large numbers came to view 231 00:13:25,460 --> 00:13:29,820 S2: the policies, the laws, the actions, the warfare of the 232 00:13:29,820 --> 00:13:36,300 S2: British government as suppressing what they called inalienable or unalienable rights, 233 00:13:36,460 --> 00:13:39,980 S2: and those were rights that were God given that only 234 00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:43,540 S2: God could take away. So they came to believe that 235 00:13:43,580 --> 00:13:48,140 S2: you accept and submit to the authority that is over you, 236 00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:53,260 S2: unless that authority attempts to usurp the authority of God. 237 00:13:53,420 --> 00:13:56,460 S2: So they chose the higher law of God over the 238 00:13:56,460 --> 00:14:00,260 S2: law of man. And they came to believe that King 239 00:14:00,260 --> 00:14:04,780 S2: George the Third in particular, was acting in a tyrannical way, 240 00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:08,380 S2: and that he was seeking to basically usurp the authority 241 00:14:08,380 --> 00:14:11,940 S2: of God. That's why they they marched off to war 242 00:14:11,940 --> 00:14:17,020 S2: under battle flags. That said, resistance to tyranny is obedience 243 00:14:17,020 --> 00:14:21,380 S2: to God. And it's no accident also that the Declaration 244 00:14:21,380 --> 00:14:25,060 S2: of Independence begins by stating what it calls a self-evident 245 00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:29,180 S2: truth that all men are created equal, endowed by their 246 00:14:29,180 --> 00:14:31,820 S2: creator with certain unalienable rights. 247 00:14:32,180 --> 00:14:34,180 S1: Well, this is the whole idea of God's truth being 248 00:14:34,180 --> 00:14:37,460 S1: written on the tablets of our heart. Therefore, it is 249 00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:41,220 S1: necessarily self-evident. God's not hiding it from us. But you 250 00:14:41,260 --> 00:14:42,940 S1: raise a couple of interesting points that I'd like to 251 00:14:42,980 --> 00:14:44,780 S1: linger for a moment, if I can. And Greg, thank 252 00:14:44,780 --> 00:14:46,500 S1: you for starting us down. What I think is a 253 00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:50,060 S1: very interesting path. I have talked to kids who have 254 00:14:50,060 --> 00:14:52,700 S1: gone to Christian school, who in some cases have been 255 00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:55,580 S1: taught that it was actually sinful for the patriots to 256 00:14:55,620 --> 00:14:58,300 S1: participate in the revolution because of this idea of not 257 00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:00,620 S1: submitting to authority. So I'm so glad we started with 258 00:15:00,620 --> 00:15:03,940 S1: this question. Were there also rod not banners that said 259 00:15:03,940 --> 00:15:07,660 S1: no king but King Jesus? And they saw the trampling underfoot. 260 00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:10,500 S1: It was this idea of lex rex versus rex Lex 261 00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:11,220 S1: was it not? 262 00:15:11,380 --> 00:15:13,500 S2: That's exactly right. And that was a slogan that came 263 00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:16,780 S2: from the Scottish Revolution, and it was one that was 264 00:15:16,780 --> 00:15:21,460 S2: picked up, particularly by, uh, by Scotch-Irish and by Presbyterians, uh, 265 00:15:22,020 --> 00:15:25,500 S2: at the time of the revolution. But the, um, if 266 00:15:25,540 --> 00:15:28,780 S2: you if you want the key to answer to Greg's 267 00:15:28,780 --> 00:15:32,980 S2: excellent question lies with the Declaration of Independence, the the 268 00:15:33,020 --> 00:15:37,860 S2: founding document there. About half of that lists how King 269 00:15:37,860 --> 00:15:41,660 S2: George the Third was a tyrant. And they had to 270 00:15:41,660 --> 00:15:44,020 S2: say that because they believed in the concept of a 271 00:15:44,060 --> 00:15:48,380 S2: just war that went back through Western civilization, through Christianity, 272 00:15:48,620 --> 00:15:51,900 S2: and was actually defined by Saint Augustine. And there had 273 00:15:51,900 --> 00:15:54,820 S2: to be certain criterias for a just war. Now we think, 274 00:15:54,820 --> 00:15:57,780 S2: how would the average American today think of things like that? 275 00:15:57,780 --> 00:16:01,300 S2: But that's how they thought in the colonial era. So 276 00:16:01,300 --> 00:16:04,580 S2: it was extremely important for these signers in this Declaration 277 00:16:04,580 --> 00:16:09,580 S2: of Independence to justify the very point that Greg is making. 278 00:16:09,580 --> 00:16:14,900 S2: They had to justify a just cause to declare independence 279 00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:19,380 S2: and to continue to to wage war with, with Great 280 00:16:19,380 --> 00:16:23,020 S2: Britain in 1776. And I also make the point that 281 00:16:23,020 --> 00:16:26,820 S2: the declaration ends with what amounts to a vow by 282 00:16:26,820 --> 00:16:30,610 S2: those signers stating that they were willing to sacrifice what 283 00:16:30,610 --> 00:16:33,690 S2: they called their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor, 284 00:16:33,890 --> 00:16:38,170 S2: because they held to what they called and what they stated. 285 00:16:38,170 --> 00:16:41,810 S2: In the end of the declaration, a firm reliance on 286 00:16:41,810 --> 00:16:44,170 S2: the protection of divine providence. 287 00:16:44,570 --> 00:16:47,690 S1: Yes. Let me throw in one anecdote at this point, rod, 288 00:16:47,690 --> 00:16:50,170 S1: I'll never forget, and I was very naive and will 289 00:16:50,170 --> 00:16:53,010 S1: publicly declare my naivety in this area. I'll never forget 290 00:16:53,010 --> 00:16:56,050 S1: the first time seeing the declaration under glass at the 291 00:16:56,050 --> 00:16:58,850 S1: National Archives, and as people who have visited there before 292 00:16:58,850 --> 00:17:01,250 S1: know that there are guards on either side. It's protected 293 00:17:01,250 --> 00:17:03,770 S1: in glass. Any kind of a hit makes the glass 294 00:17:03,810 --> 00:17:06,530 S1: go down underground where it's protected. I mean, it kind 295 00:17:06,570 --> 00:17:08,130 S1: of takes your breath away when you see the sort 296 00:17:08,130 --> 00:17:11,129 S1: of reverence that's given to these documents. But I looked 297 00:17:11,130 --> 00:17:13,250 S1: under glass, and on the left hand side of the 298 00:17:13,250 --> 00:17:16,850 S1: paper I saw fingerprints, and I said, oh, isn't that terrible? 299 00:17:16,850 --> 00:17:19,130 S1: When they mounted it, they got fingerprints on it. That's 300 00:17:19,130 --> 00:17:21,210 S1: really too bad. And the guard that I pointed it 301 00:17:21,210 --> 00:17:23,530 S1: out to smiled. He must have heard this a time 302 00:17:23,530 --> 00:17:25,370 S1: or two, and he said, oh, no, ma'am, he said, 303 00:17:25,369 --> 00:17:27,930 S1: that's where the signers studied the the paper with their 304 00:17:27,930 --> 00:17:30,210 S1: left hand before they took the quill pen in their 305 00:17:30,210 --> 00:17:32,810 S1: right and signed their names. And what you see on 306 00:17:32,850 --> 00:17:35,890 S1: that paper are the oils from their hands that were 307 00:17:35,890 --> 00:17:39,450 S1: left into the paper as they steadied it and signed 308 00:17:39,490 --> 00:17:42,410 S1: what could have been their death warrant, and it was 309 00:17:42,410 --> 00:17:44,929 S1: the humanity of that fingerprint that suddenly took it out 310 00:17:44,930 --> 00:17:47,250 S1: of the realm of the academic for me, and helped 311 00:17:47,250 --> 00:17:49,810 S1: me realize that these were people. And I think 200 312 00:17:49,810 --> 00:17:53,250 S1: years plus we've forgotten this, who were quite literally willing 313 00:17:53,290 --> 00:17:56,649 S1: to die if necessary for what they believed. And I 314 00:17:56,650 --> 00:17:58,570 S1: think that's an important point for us to remember. They 315 00:17:58,570 --> 00:18:01,609 S1: weren't cavalier. This wasn't a boring third hour history class 316 00:18:01,609 --> 00:18:05,090 S1: they had to take. This was their lives, their sacred honor. 317 00:18:05,609 --> 00:18:11,090 S2: Well, that's a that's exactly right. And, uh, many of 318 00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:15,810 S2: them did lose their lives and many more did lose 319 00:18:15,810 --> 00:18:18,970 S2: their fortunes. And it's important for us to remember that. But, 320 00:18:19,130 --> 00:18:21,290 S2: you know, the greater question is that we tend to 321 00:18:21,330 --> 00:18:25,730 S2: think about the founders as being basically a handful of men, 322 00:18:25,730 --> 00:18:29,010 S2: generally a small handful of prominent men. But the founders 323 00:18:29,010 --> 00:18:34,010 S2: of this nation were the American people because the Judeo-Christian 324 00:18:34,010 --> 00:18:39,689 S2: worldview was their national consensus. And it's the signers of 325 00:18:39,690 --> 00:18:44,010 S2: the Declaration of Independence and those who who crafted it, 326 00:18:44,010 --> 00:18:46,890 S2: because not everyone who was involved in producing it signed it. 327 00:18:47,010 --> 00:18:50,050 S2: Those people who produced this, they had to make they 328 00:18:50,050 --> 00:18:52,170 S2: had to answer to the American people, and they had 329 00:18:52,170 --> 00:18:55,090 S2: to justify what they were doing in accordance with that 330 00:18:55,090 --> 00:18:56,170 S2: biblical worldview. 331 00:18:57,170 --> 00:19:00,649 S1: Mm. Excellent boy. This is a fascinating conversation. Let me 332 00:19:00,650 --> 00:19:02,209 S1: take a break. When we come back, we've got some 333 00:19:02,210 --> 00:19:13,290 S1: really good questions online as well. 1877548367518775483675. It's time you sing. America, America. 334 00:19:13,290 --> 00:19:15,490 S1: God shed his grace on thee. It's more than a 335 00:19:15,530 --> 00:19:18,250 S1: lyric in a song that's somewhat challenging to sing. It's 336 00:19:18,250 --> 00:19:21,130 S1: a remembrance. The hand of Providence in our founding. We'll 337 00:19:21,130 --> 00:20:07,850 S1: be back. By the Hand of Providence How Faith Shaped 338 00:20:07,850 --> 00:20:10,490 S1: the American Revolution. That's the title of the book written 339 00:20:10,490 --> 00:20:13,450 S1: by our guest, Rod Gregg, who, by the way, is 340 00:20:13,450 --> 00:20:16,290 S1: currently the director of the center for Military and Veterans 341 00:20:16,290 --> 00:20:20,770 S1: Studies at Coastal Carolina University in South Carolina. He also 342 00:20:20,770 --> 00:20:23,889 S1: serves as a lecturer and adjunct professor of history there 343 00:20:23,890 --> 00:20:29,370 S1: as well. 18775675 and let me, if I may, go 344 00:20:29,369 --> 00:20:31,730 S1: to Siddiqui. Thank you, Siddiqui, for being with us. Your 345 00:20:31,730 --> 00:20:33,050 S1: question please, for rod. 346 00:20:33,690 --> 00:20:35,090 S4: Uh, yeah. Can you hear me? Clear? 347 00:20:35,330 --> 00:20:36,610 S1: I can loud and clear. 348 00:20:37,210 --> 00:20:41,810 S4: All right. Good. Uh, I was, uh, I love this show. 349 00:20:42,010 --> 00:20:45,450 S4: I'm a long time listener, first time caller. Uh, and 350 00:20:45,450 --> 00:20:48,530 S4: you guys are talking about, you know, something that I enjoy, 351 00:20:48,530 --> 00:20:51,690 S4: which is history. And, uh, you know, I, you know, 352 00:20:51,730 --> 00:20:54,450 S4: I see on the History Channel that they, uh, that 353 00:20:54,450 --> 00:20:58,770 S4: they displayed George Washington, you know, in a somewhat favorable light. 354 00:20:58,770 --> 00:21:01,810 S4: But at the same time, they also, uh, talks about, 355 00:21:01,850 --> 00:21:04,810 S4: you know, his Masonic ties. And I wanted to know, 356 00:21:04,810 --> 00:21:07,490 S4: as a Christian, how should I read that? Is that 357 00:21:07,490 --> 00:21:09,689 S4: a good thing or a bad thing? As far as 358 00:21:09,730 --> 00:21:13,690 S4: you know, uh, the old Masonic lodge thing about the 359 00:21:13,690 --> 00:21:15,530 S4: Founding Fathers at that time. 360 00:21:16,210 --> 00:21:20,250 S2: Well, I think that George Washington was a mason And, uh, 361 00:21:20,410 --> 00:21:23,890 S2: I don't know that he was particularly active. Mason. Uh, he, uh, 362 00:21:23,890 --> 00:21:26,850 S2: I think was on record attending a few meetings, but 363 00:21:26,850 --> 00:21:30,369 S2: he and many of the other founding fathers were active 364 00:21:30,369 --> 00:21:35,290 S2: in Freemasonry. And, uh, I think the issue there is, again, 365 00:21:35,330 --> 00:21:38,490 S2: the same. You have to look at what they said, 366 00:21:38,490 --> 00:21:40,890 S2: what they wrote and what they did. And I appreciate 367 00:21:40,890 --> 00:21:43,770 S2: you bringing up George Washington because I wanted to go 368 00:21:43,770 --> 00:21:45,810 S2: back to that. We kind of left him hanging before 369 00:21:45,810 --> 00:21:47,449 S2: he went to the first break, because I'd made a 370 00:21:47,450 --> 00:21:50,369 S2: point that there's a, you know, there's a tendency to 371 00:21:50,410 --> 00:21:53,570 S2: kind of squeeze him into one side and expect for 372 00:21:53,570 --> 00:21:57,969 S2: him to his writings and his words to sound like 373 00:21:57,970 --> 00:22:01,130 S2: a 21st century evangelical. And on the other side, there 374 00:22:01,170 --> 00:22:02,930 S2: are those who say, oh, this guy was a deist. 375 00:22:02,970 --> 00:22:04,930 S2: He was a humanist, he was a secularist. He was 376 00:22:04,930 --> 00:22:09,050 S2: a stoic, classical, uh, man. Now, he leaned to me. 377 00:22:09,090 --> 00:22:11,810 S2: He leaned toward the evangelical side. But I can tell 378 00:22:11,810 --> 00:22:15,250 S2: you that he was absolutely not a deist. Uh, and, uh, 379 00:22:15,250 --> 00:22:17,840 S2: and you don't take my word for it, I would 380 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,760 S2: say to anyone today, you can go online, you can 381 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,439 S2: look at Washington's papers and a variety of places, the 382 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,280 S2: Library of Congress, the University of Virginia. You can do 383 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:31,680 S2: word searches on key words. It's voluminous, voluminous material. But 384 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,080 S2: you have to look at what he said, and you 385 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,520 S2: have to look at what he did. He was not one, 386 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,080 S2: as I say, he would lead theological discussions at the 387 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,480 S2: dinner table. He didn't leave us a written personal testimony 388 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,960 S2: that we can look at, but he left a lot, 389 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,520 S2: a lot. And if you look at what he said 390 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,720 S2: and did this, I think this will complete my thought 391 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,560 S2: about Washington. And I hope that we'll answer the caller's question. 392 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,240 S2: Washington made sure that his army observed the national days 393 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,600 S2: of prayer that were called by the Continental Congress, and 394 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,000 S2: they they called two at least two a year, every 395 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,280 S2: year of the revolution something we can we can discuss 396 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,399 S2: a bit in a bit. He, uh, he responded to 397 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:16,800 S2: major American victories with Thanksgiving, uh, proclamations and worship services 398 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:22,440 S2: when the British evacuated Boston in 1776, and a tremendous 399 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,280 S2: victory for Washington before he led his troops, or before 400 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,800 S2: he marched in with his troops victoriously in Boston, he 401 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:34,520 S2: held a worship service. He encouraged his troops to engage 402 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,639 S2: in what he called the higher duties of religion, issued 403 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,560 S2: official orders that encouraged them to attend church, to refrain 404 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,960 S2: from drunkenness to. In one famous order, encouraged officers and 405 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,680 S2: troops to abstain from profanity. At one point, he said 406 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,679 S2: in his words that his soldiers should conduct themselves as 407 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,440 S2: become a Christian soldier and by his own conduct. In 408 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,240 S2: contrast to some of the British commanders, he really set 409 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,400 S2: an example of character that was Bible based and that 410 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,719 S2: inspired his officers, troops and patriot Americans everywhere. 411 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,320 S1: Wow. Siddiqui. Let me recommend also the work of my 412 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:18,240 S1: friend David Barton at Wallbuilders.com. Wallbuilders.com. He has an entire 413 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,480 S1: pamphlet on masonry among the founding fathers. That famous picture 414 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,400 S1: of Washington and the Masons apron as an example, was 415 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,960 S1: painted after his death. Washington never posed like that. So 416 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:42,400 S1: check it out, Wallbuilders.com. We'll be right back. Friends, this 417 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,040 S1: is Janet partial, and I want to take a moment 418 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,840 S1: to remind you that today's program is prerecorded so our 419 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,160 S1: phone lines aren't open. But I sure do appreciate your 420 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,320 S1: spending the hour with us. And thanks so much and 421 00:24:51,320 --> 00:25:09,240 S1: enjoy the rest of the program. This is in the 422 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,560 S1: market and I'm your host, Janet Partial. And we are 423 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,520 S1: taking a look at the role that faith played in 424 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,400 S1: shaping the American Revolution, our conversation emanates from a book 425 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,760 S1: written by our guest, Rod Gregg. It's called By the 426 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,760 S1: Hand of Providence, and you can learn more by going 427 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,400 S1: to In the Market with Janet Parshall. You can click 428 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,320 S1: on through to learn more about the book. Rod. I'm 429 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:31,720 S1: going to go back to the phones in a bit, 430 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,760 S1: but I think I want to discuss causal factors. Fast forward, 431 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,280 S1: and I know you would be rich with information about 432 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,320 S1: the Civil War, but isn't it interesting when people talk 433 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,480 S1: about what were the causal factors? Was it states rights? 434 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,479 S1: Was it the idea of secession? Was it the the 435 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,959 S1: question of slavery? Well, let me back up to the 436 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,199 S1: American Revolution. I think, again, point of reference here for 437 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,320 S1: a lot of our people for whom this is just 438 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:57,439 S1: dusty books. How egregious was it for the American colonists? 439 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,920 S1: What if you could enumerate were, in fact, the causal 440 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:03,920 S1: factors for these people? After much prayer, to finally consider 441 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,840 S1: that a revolution was the only answer. 442 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,400 S2: Well, and I appreciate that, and I can I will 443 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,560 S2: do that, if you don't mind. Let me make one 444 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,439 S2: final point about George Washington, please. While we were on 445 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,000 S2: your break, I pulled up just a couple of quotes 446 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,040 S2: from him and let me read you these very brief quotes, 447 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,280 S2: which I think speak for themselves. Um, this is, uh, 448 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,920 S2: General Orders, headquarters, New York, 15th May 1776. The general 449 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,159 S2: commands all officers and soldiers to pay strict obedience to 450 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,200 S2: the orders of the Continental Congress, and by their unfeigned 451 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,240 S2: and pious observance of their religious duties, incline the Lord 452 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,720 S2: and giver of victory to prosper our arms and then headquarters, 453 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,919 S2: New York, 9th July 1776. General orders. The colonels, or 454 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:52,320 S2: commanding officers of each regiment, are directed to procure chaplains accordingly, 455 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,960 S2: persons of good character and exemplary lives to see that 456 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,680 S2: all inferior officers and soldiers pay them a suitable respect, 457 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,520 S2: and attend carefully upon religious exercising. The blessings and protection 458 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,200 S2: of heaven are at all times necessary, but especially so 459 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,800 S2: in times of public distress and danger. The general hopes 460 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,640 S2: and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor so 461 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,240 S2: to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier, defending 462 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,320 S2: the dearest rights and liberties of his country. Well, those 463 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:22,760 S2: are not the words of a deist. 464 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,240 S1: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. 465 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,600 S2: But to go back to your question about causation and, uh, 466 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,119 S2: there were a series of events that, uh, kind of 467 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,119 S2: pulled the trigger here. But the bottom line was that, uh, 468 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,119 S2: the American colonies, uh, had prospered under what some historians 469 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,000 S2: call benign neglect by the British government. It really didn't 470 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,600 S2: pay much attention to them, and they had grown to 471 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,000 S2: consider themselves more American in many ways than British. They 472 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,280 S2: also had many people who'd come in from other countries 473 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,680 S2: in northern Europe, the Germans and the Dutch, for instance, 474 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,560 S2: so that you had a mixed bag and they had 475 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,800 S2: grown to consider themselves more American than British. And the 476 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,240 S2: short of it is, is that the French and Indian 477 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,399 S2: War ended in a spectacular victory for the British, which 478 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,359 S2: gave them control of North America, but at a high cost. 479 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,000 S2: And they were just about bankrupt. And so in order 480 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,320 S2: to try to, to fund the government and pay for 481 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,240 S2: British troops that they were putting on the frontier in America, 482 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,439 S2: they began to pass under George the Third and the 483 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,520 S2: Parliament that, uh, that was his or that it was 484 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,080 S2: at the time that he reigned a series of very 485 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,320 S2: unpopular and controversial taxes. Now, Americans had paid taxes through 486 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,280 S2: their colonial legislature to the British government before. But these 487 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:48,080 S2: taxes and these new laws were very controversial. They they closed, uh, 488 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,400 S2: the American frontier to further expansion, which frustrated many people, 489 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,680 S2: told those who were on the frontier to move back. 490 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:01,640 S2: They passed laws that ordered that British soldiers had to 491 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,870 S2: be quartered on people's property, whether they liked it or not. 492 00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:08,310 S2: And then a whole series of very unpopular and controversial 493 00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:13,230 S2: financial acts. And in in the midst of that, they 494 00:29:13,470 --> 00:29:17,430 S2: levied the first direct tax on the American people. And 495 00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:21,630 S2: the Americans had no representation in Parliament. And so that 496 00:29:21,630 --> 00:29:26,390 S2: became the critical issue. And the King and Parliament were unbending. 497 00:29:26,390 --> 00:29:30,750 S2: There would be no American representation in Parliament. Now, later on, 498 00:29:30,750 --> 00:29:33,310 S2: after the war was going the American way, there was 499 00:29:33,310 --> 00:29:36,230 S2: some discussion in England about changing that position. But that's 500 00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:39,070 S2: what they stood at. That there would be no American voice, 501 00:29:39,070 --> 00:29:42,310 S2: there would be no representation in Parliament, and that Parliament 502 00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:44,430 S2: and the King would dictate to the Americans and would 503 00:29:44,430 --> 00:29:49,070 S2: expect them to be in obedience. And over time, increasing 504 00:29:49,070 --> 00:29:53,030 S2: numbers of Americans, led by their patriot pastors, came to 505 00:29:53,070 --> 00:29:56,390 S2: view this as acts of tyranny and came to view 506 00:29:56,710 --> 00:30:03,070 S2: the British rule as being oppressive. And when warfare occurred 507 00:30:03,070 --> 00:30:06,870 S2: and to try to to rein things back in, the 508 00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:14,190 S2: British Navy began shelling coastal towns and warfare actually occurred 509 00:30:14,190 --> 00:30:18,709 S2: on on land. Then increasing numbers of Americans began to 510 00:30:18,710 --> 00:30:22,550 S2: view the British government as tyrannical, and they held on 511 00:30:22,590 --> 00:30:28,550 S2: to that position in greater numbers, growing numbers, that it 512 00:30:28,550 --> 00:30:33,430 S2: was a biblical duty to resist tyranny, which was not 513 00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:36,470 S2: only the battle cry of the Scottish Revolution, but it 514 00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:40,310 S2: was also the voice of the of the Reformation. And 515 00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:46,110 S2: so eventually, uh, eventually, when, um, when the Declaration of 516 00:30:46,110 --> 00:30:53,550 S2: Independence occurred, when American independence was, uh, projected, when British 517 00:30:53,550 --> 00:30:59,590 S2: resistance increased, Americans in in great numbers came to view 518 00:31:00,070 --> 00:31:04,710 S2: King and Parliament, but especially George the Third as a 519 00:31:04,750 --> 00:31:08,630 S2: leader who was attempting to usurp the authority of God. 520 00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:12,950 S2: And so they saw this revolution and their resistance as 521 00:31:13,110 --> 00:31:15,750 S2: a biblically based and justified. 522 00:31:16,430 --> 00:31:19,710 S1: Exactly. Now, take everything you just said and wrap this 523 00:31:19,710 --> 00:31:23,270 S1: around one of my favorite founders, and that's a man 524 00:31:23,270 --> 00:31:29,910 S1: who delivered a very stirring sermon and then surprised his congregation. Mr. 525 00:31:29,910 --> 00:31:31,670 S1: Muhlenberg talked to us about him. 526 00:31:32,150 --> 00:31:36,630 S2: Well, uh, he was a pastor, um, in the Appalachians. 527 00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:39,270 S2: And he was like a lot of pastors. I cited 528 00:31:39,270 --> 00:31:41,590 S2: him in the book and told his story because really, 529 00:31:41,590 --> 00:31:46,390 S2: it was representative, uh, but he announced to his congregation 530 00:31:46,430 --> 00:31:49,190 S2: at one point they heard that he was leaving. And 531 00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:51,470 S2: they these were a lot of German speaking folks who 532 00:31:51,510 --> 00:31:54,990 S2: were living in, in Appalachia, and they were actually German 533 00:31:54,990 --> 00:31:57,950 S2: speakers and most of them Lutheran Lutherans. But they were 534 00:31:57,950 --> 00:32:01,230 S2: in this Anglican church and little frontier church. And they 535 00:32:01,230 --> 00:32:04,390 S2: all gathered Sunday morning. They spilled out of the church 536 00:32:04,390 --> 00:32:07,030 S2: doors into the church yards because they wanted to know 537 00:32:07,030 --> 00:32:12,470 S2: why this popular young pastor of theirs was leaving the pulpit. And, uh, 538 00:32:12,470 --> 00:32:14,870 S2: and he made a speech to them, and he basically 539 00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:17,630 S2: did just explained just what I said, that there he 540 00:32:17,630 --> 00:32:20,990 S2: quoted Ecclesiastes and said that there was a time to 541 00:32:21,030 --> 00:32:26,590 S2: fight and that, uh, resistance to tyrants was obedience to God. 542 00:32:26,790 --> 00:32:30,070 S2: And that after making that point, he dropped his clergy 543 00:32:30,310 --> 00:32:33,830 S2: robe to reveal himself standing there in the uniform of 544 00:32:33,870 --> 00:32:38,990 S2: a Virginia militia officer. And that was more dramatic than 545 00:32:38,990 --> 00:32:43,350 S2: what happened in many churches. But these pastors throughout America, 546 00:32:43,390 --> 00:32:49,510 S2: these patriot pastors, left their felt called to go into service. 547 00:32:49,510 --> 00:32:52,230 S2: And in many cases, they left their churches to become 548 00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:56,070 S2: chaplains or officers or soldiers in the ranks. And they 549 00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:59,070 S2: took the men folk of their church with them. And 550 00:32:59,110 --> 00:33:01,670 S2: it's a you know, that sounds kind of odd to 551 00:33:01,710 --> 00:33:04,390 S2: us living in our modern age, that they could be 552 00:33:04,390 --> 00:33:09,830 S2: so influential. But the most influential profession in colonial America, 553 00:33:09,870 --> 00:33:13,310 S2: particularly at the time of the Revolution, was the clergy. 554 00:33:13,910 --> 00:33:18,990 S2: And America's ministers were so influential that some of the 555 00:33:18,990 --> 00:33:22,910 S2: British leaders referred to them as the Black Regiment, making 556 00:33:22,910 --> 00:33:25,950 S2: a reference to the color of their clergymen's gowns and 557 00:33:25,950 --> 00:33:31,030 S2: to the army like influence that they they wielded over their, uh, 558 00:33:31,030 --> 00:33:33,670 S2: over their folks. And I have to tell you that, uh, 559 00:33:33,670 --> 00:33:36,470 S2: the political center in America at the time of the 560 00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:41,350 S2: revolution wasn't party headquarters or a caucus room or any legislature. 561 00:33:41,550 --> 00:33:45,750 S2: It was the local church. And in the local church, uh, 562 00:33:45,750 --> 00:33:49,830 S2: issues that were deemed moral, including political ones, were addressed. 563 00:33:49,950 --> 00:33:53,190 S2: And the issue of resistance and when to resist and 564 00:33:53,190 --> 00:33:56,830 S2: how to resist and when to to submit to authority 565 00:33:56,830 --> 00:33:59,390 S2: and when to when authority is considered to be a 566 00:33:59,390 --> 00:34:02,630 S2: violation of putting the laws of man over the laws 567 00:34:02,630 --> 00:34:06,110 S2: of God. All those issues were dealt with by America's 568 00:34:06,110 --> 00:34:09,430 S2: patriot pastors, and they were incredibly influential. 569 00:34:09,710 --> 00:34:12,670 S1: And in a small town, rod in the Shenandoah Valley 570 00:34:13,030 --> 00:34:16,150 S1: right outside the courthouse. And if the ACLU knew this, 571 00:34:16,150 --> 00:34:19,190 S1: they'd probably get very upset. But I'll declare it boldly anyway. 572 00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:23,310 S1: There is a bronze statue of Muhlenberg taking off his 573 00:34:23,310 --> 00:34:28,070 S1: clerics robes, and underneath there's the uniform of the Virginia militia. 574 00:34:28,350 --> 00:34:30,589 S1: So he, in fact, he was noted to have said, 575 00:34:30,590 --> 00:34:32,750 S1: there is a time to pray and a time to fight. 576 00:34:32,750 --> 00:34:35,109 S1: But I think the point that you're making is this 577 00:34:35,110 --> 00:34:37,989 S1: was not done in a cavalier fashion. These are people 578 00:34:37,989 --> 00:34:40,989 S1: who really sought the hand of Providence. If I may 579 00:34:40,989 --> 00:34:43,589 S1: lift this from your title and the quote from George Washington, 580 00:34:43,790 --> 00:34:47,310 S1: because they weren't going to be offhanded about this. They 581 00:34:47,310 --> 00:34:50,109 S1: understood the personal price they might have to pay. But 582 00:34:50,110 --> 00:34:52,029 S1: above all else, it seems to me they wanted to 583 00:34:52,030 --> 00:34:55,029 S1: be obedient to God. And if King George was. And 584 00:34:55,030 --> 00:34:56,549 S1: by the way, this whole idea and you touched on 585 00:34:56,550 --> 00:34:59,630 S1: it before this Lex Rex versus Rex lex, the arrogance 586 00:34:59,630 --> 00:35:02,950 S1: of a monarch was that I am God's anointed. All 587 00:35:02,950 --> 00:35:06,509 S1: truth emanates from me. I am the final arbiter of truth. 588 00:35:06,510 --> 00:35:09,630 S1: That's idolatry. It's blasphemy. And I think we need to 589 00:35:09,630 --> 00:35:11,710 S1: understand that it simply wasn't a matter of saying, well, 590 00:35:11,710 --> 00:35:13,990 S1: we needed to bow in submission to the English government 591 00:35:13,989 --> 00:35:16,830 S1: because that was the government over us. That in fact, 592 00:35:16,830 --> 00:35:19,629 S1: to the founders, this was a usurpation of the role 593 00:35:19,630 --> 00:35:21,950 S1: that God played in our lives, am I right? 594 00:35:21,950 --> 00:35:23,870 S2: Well, you said that extremely well. And it actually I 595 00:35:23,870 --> 00:35:25,870 S2: was thinking, as you said it, it sounded so much 596 00:35:25,870 --> 00:35:28,950 S2: like many of the sermons that I've read that came 597 00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:31,070 S2: from the pulpits on the eve of the revolution and 598 00:35:31,070 --> 00:35:34,830 S2: during the revolution. And you you sum that up very well. 599 00:35:34,830 --> 00:35:38,910 S2: I think it's important to remember that the American Revolution 600 00:35:38,910 --> 00:35:41,669 S2: was a revolution by law. That's how it was viewed. 601 00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:46,110 S2: There was a tremendous, um, effort made by the leaders 602 00:35:46,110 --> 00:35:49,590 S2: of America because they understood the worldview of the common 603 00:35:49,630 --> 00:35:53,100 S2: American person to justify and explain how this was a 604 00:35:53,140 --> 00:35:57,580 S2: just war and how there were biblical grounds for doing this. 605 00:35:57,580 --> 00:36:01,140 S2: And they felt compelled the American people and their leaders 606 00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:05,140 S2: to wage this war, because they saw it as a 607 00:36:05,620 --> 00:36:08,460 S2: revolution that was faith based. And now that stands in 608 00:36:08,460 --> 00:36:11,980 S2: real contrast to the French Revolution, which occurred at the 609 00:36:11,980 --> 00:36:16,060 S2: same time in which you had not only an assault 610 00:36:16,060 --> 00:36:19,299 S2: on the authority that was very bloody, but you also 611 00:36:19,300 --> 00:36:22,140 S2: had an assault on the church, to the point that 612 00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:24,899 S2: the days of the week were changed so you wouldn't 613 00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:28,380 S2: have a Sunday. And the adbc was gone, and the 614 00:36:28,420 --> 00:36:31,219 S2: statues of the kings of Israel and Judea on the 615 00:36:31,219 --> 00:36:34,580 S2: front of Notre Dame were beheaded. And all this real 616 00:36:34,580 --> 00:36:40,060 S2: hostility to Christianity that resulted in a lawless revolution. In contrast, 617 00:36:40,060 --> 00:36:43,860 S2: the American Revolution was a revolution of law and by law, 618 00:36:44,219 --> 00:36:46,500 S2: and a revolution that was faith based. 619 00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:50,299 S1: Mm. Excellent point. In fact, if I get time rod, 620 00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:52,219 S1: when we come back, maybe we touch a bit on 621 00:36:52,219 --> 00:36:55,779 S1: Jefferson versus Adams on this exact point. The book is 622 00:36:55,780 --> 00:36:59,140 S1: called By the Hand of Providence. Rod, Greg is with us. 623 00:36:59,140 --> 00:37:26,219 S1: More after this. By the Hand of Providence how Faith 624 00:37:26,219 --> 00:37:29,980 S1: Shaped the American Revolution. Absolutely fascinating book that reminds us 625 00:37:29,980 --> 00:37:33,339 S1: of who our Founding fathers were and who it is 626 00:37:33,340 --> 00:37:37,420 S1: they worshipped. And again, how God does intervene in the 627 00:37:37,420 --> 00:37:40,460 S1: affairs of man. And this is important, I think, for 628 00:37:40,460 --> 00:37:43,379 S1: us to remember our beginning and why we stumble over 629 00:37:43,380 --> 00:37:46,100 S1: that word inalienable. It has everything to do with the 630 00:37:46,100 --> 00:37:49,300 S1: acknowledgement of the sovereign nature of our Most High King. 631 00:37:49,300 --> 00:37:51,340 S1: And I'm not referring to George by any stretch of 632 00:37:51,340 --> 00:37:56,300 S1: the imagination. 18775675. Victor, you are in Chicago. Your question 633 00:37:56,300 --> 00:37:57,900 S1: for our guest. Rod. Greg, please. 634 00:37:58,140 --> 00:38:01,180 S5: Yeah. Hi, Janet. Thank you so much for taking my call. 635 00:38:01,180 --> 00:38:03,540 S5: And I love your program. Um, I would like to 636 00:38:03,540 --> 00:38:09,260 S5: ask your guest, um, recently, I've been reading some revisionist historians. Um, 637 00:38:09,580 --> 00:38:14,220 S5: those irritating people, they're like a mosquito in your ear, and, um, 638 00:38:14,219 --> 00:38:17,779 S5: they interfere with our proper understanding of what went on 639 00:38:17,780 --> 00:38:20,899 S5: in this country. Uh, at that time, I would like 640 00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:25,500 S5: to know, um, the breakdown of religions, um, the numbers. 641 00:38:25,980 --> 00:38:30,740 S5: This revisionist historian claimed that the country consisted of many 642 00:38:30,739 --> 00:38:36,100 S5: diverse religions. And he didn't mean denominations of Christianity. He 643 00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:40,380 S5: meant diverse religions. Uh, he's probably trying to paint a 644 00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:44,700 S5: picture of the Founding Fathers as being irreligious. I don't 645 00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:46,940 S5: believe that this is true. And I was wondering if 646 00:38:46,980 --> 00:38:50,140 S5: your guest could, um, share some light on that. And 647 00:38:50,140 --> 00:38:51,980 S5: as far as numbers go, thank you very much. 648 00:38:52,420 --> 00:38:56,500 S2: Uh, excellent question, Victor. And I would tell you this that, uh, 649 00:38:56,500 --> 00:39:00,220 S2: if you look at Colonial America, which of course was, uh, 650 00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:04,020 S2: the grounds from which these American people of the revolution, uh, 651 00:39:04,020 --> 00:39:09,020 S2: grew and where their core values came. Colonial America was 652 00:39:09,460 --> 00:39:14,739 S2: founded on Judeo-Christian values. Uh, the English law. American law, 653 00:39:14,780 --> 00:39:19,259 S2: English law. Magna Carta, uh, Old Testament, New Testament, uh, 654 00:39:19,260 --> 00:39:25,259 S2: the 20th century, uh, great historian, Jewish historian Abraham Kosh, 655 00:39:25,660 --> 00:39:29,580 S2: in a book of his called The Biblical Heritage of Democracy, 656 00:39:29,620 --> 00:39:31,460 S2: made the point. And I think he said it well. 657 00:39:31,460 --> 00:39:34,940 S2: And I love his phrase where he said America's founding documents, uh, 658 00:39:34,940 --> 00:39:40,380 S2: exuded sympathy, profound sympathy in his words for the scriptures. 659 00:39:40,780 --> 00:39:43,540 S2: And that was the worldview. And if you look at 660 00:39:43,540 --> 00:39:47,700 S2: a colonial America, what you saw there in colonial America 661 00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:51,620 S2: was a diversity of faith. Uh, in this way, you 662 00:39:51,620 --> 00:39:56,460 S2: saw the Puritans, Congregationalists in New England, uh, the Anglicans 663 00:39:56,460 --> 00:40:01,500 S2: in Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia, the Quakers in Pennsylvania, the 664 00:40:01,500 --> 00:40:06,460 S2: Baptists in Rhode Island, Catholics in Maryland, Presbyterians in new Jersey, 665 00:40:06,460 --> 00:40:10,100 S2: parts of Pennsylvania, Dutch Reformed in New York, the Jewish 666 00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:15,180 S2: communities in New York City, in Philadelphia, and in Charleston. Diversity. 667 00:40:15,420 --> 00:40:18,299 S2: But they were all people of the book. So that 668 00:40:18,300 --> 00:40:24,820 S2: colonial America on the eve of the Revolution was predominantly Protestant, uh, 669 00:40:25,219 --> 00:40:29,780 S2: but a diversity. The Church of England Anglican had become 670 00:40:29,820 --> 00:40:34,540 S2: outnumbered by what was called the dissenters denominations the Baptists, 671 00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:40,100 S2: the Presbyterians, the Congregationalists, etc. so diversity, yes, but all 672 00:40:40,100 --> 00:40:45,500 S2: people of the book. And John Adams. John Adams observed 673 00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:48,820 S2: as he looked back from his old age at this 674 00:40:48,860 --> 00:40:53,460 S2: extraordinary event that had happened in Philadelphia with this drafting, 675 00:40:53,460 --> 00:40:56,300 S2: this creation of the Declaration of Independence. And as he 676 00:40:56,380 --> 00:40:59,500 S2: surveyed from the past, those men that he had served 677 00:40:59,500 --> 00:41:03,740 S2: with who had produced that remarkable document that is laced 678 00:41:03,739 --> 00:41:08,140 S2: with the language of faith. John Adams acknowledged, yes, there 679 00:41:08,140 --> 00:41:11,980 S2: were some deists. Yes, there were some different people of 680 00:41:11,980 --> 00:41:16,500 S2: different perspectives and faith and some non-believers there. But and 681 00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:19,939 S2: this is his quote, he said, the only thing that 682 00:41:19,940 --> 00:41:23,940 S2: united the signers of the Declaration of Independence was what 683 00:41:23,940 --> 00:41:29,740 S2: he called, quote, the general principles of Christianity, and that 684 00:41:29,739 --> 00:41:34,460 S2: reflected the worldview of the colonial American people. So I 685 00:41:34,460 --> 00:41:39,020 S2: think what we often what we see today sometimes really 686 00:41:39,020 --> 00:41:44,250 S2: reflects more of the worldview that is held in leadership 687 00:41:44,250 --> 00:41:49,330 S2: in various institutions today. Education, history, etc. then it really 688 00:41:49,330 --> 00:41:52,850 S2: reflects the evidence of the era. But don't take my 689 00:41:52,850 --> 00:41:56,890 S2: word for it. The primary sources are more easily available 690 00:41:56,890 --> 00:42:00,690 S2: and accessible than they ever have been, and anyone can 691 00:42:00,690 --> 00:42:02,770 S2: look and see for themselves. 692 00:42:03,610 --> 00:42:05,410 S1: I could talk to you for hours. Rod, let me 693 00:42:05,410 --> 00:42:06,969 S1: go to a question that I bet is on the 694 00:42:06,969 --> 00:42:08,569 S1: mind of a lot of our listeners, and that is. 695 00:42:08,570 --> 00:42:11,810 S1: I've got about a minute left address, if you would, Jefferson, 696 00:42:11,810 --> 00:42:14,090 S1: Danbury Baptist Society and whether or not, in light of 697 00:42:14,090 --> 00:42:15,930 S1: all that you've just said for the past hour, would 698 00:42:15,930 --> 00:42:18,290 S1: they really have believed in separation of church and state, 699 00:42:18,290 --> 00:42:20,010 S1: as we see it exemplified today? 700 00:42:20,210 --> 00:42:22,170 S2: Well, I don't think they would have. I think they 701 00:42:22,170 --> 00:42:25,489 S2: would be surprised by the way it's being interpreted today. 702 00:42:25,730 --> 00:42:28,850 S2: But I will tell you, I tell you this, um, uh, 703 00:42:29,130 --> 00:42:32,130 S2: you look at you look at Thomas Jefferson and you 704 00:42:32,130 --> 00:42:36,290 S2: look at, uh, Benjamin Franklin, for instance. And you see 705 00:42:36,290 --> 00:42:41,969 S2: there the two, founders of fame who were out of 706 00:42:41,969 --> 00:42:47,330 S2: the mainstream, and yet they were respectful of, and they 707 00:42:48,810 --> 00:42:54,290 S2: worked within and promoted that Judeo-Christian worldview. Uh, Franklin was 708 00:42:54,290 --> 00:42:56,730 S2: probably the only real deist, although I don't know that 709 00:42:56,730 --> 00:43:00,210 S2: he would really have called himself that. Thomas Jefferson's theology 710 00:43:00,210 --> 00:43:02,770 S2: was very conflicted. And, you know, depending on where he 711 00:43:02,770 --> 00:43:05,089 S2: was and whatever time, at one time he acted like 712 00:43:05,090 --> 00:43:09,290 S2: a deist, and another time he was raised and was 713 00:43:09,290 --> 00:43:13,210 S2: taught by Anglican, uh, tutors. Um, he had kind of 714 00:43:13,250 --> 00:43:17,170 S2: a break with mainstream faith when he was in college 715 00:43:17,170 --> 00:43:20,970 S2: and was jilted by a girlfriend. Uh, he really couldn't 716 00:43:20,969 --> 00:43:23,210 S2: bring himself to have the words to propose. He was 717 00:43:23,210 --> 00:43:26,529 S2: a great writer, but a lousy speaker. And that was 718 00:43:26,530 --> 00:43:28,170 S2: a big issue in his life. And it kind of 719 00:43:28,210 --> 00:43:30,770 S2: turned him around. And so you see him in different times, 720 00:43:30,770 --> 00:43:34,930 S2: in different places with conflicted theology. But all of his 721 00:43:34,930 --> 00:43:38,290 S2: life he called himself a Christian. And the key thing 722 00:43:38,330 --> 00:43:40,489 S2: to know about if you want to see. What did 723 00:43:40,530 --> 00:43:43,650 S2: Thomas Jefferson believe at the time of the Declaration of Independence, 724 00:43:43,650 --> 00:43:45,850 S2: when he when he drafted it, of course, it went 725 00:43:45,850 --> 00:43:48,290 S2: to to a committee of editors, and then it was 726 00:43:48,570 --> 00:43:52,210 S2: changed by the, the full Congress. But an important point here. 727 00:43:53,250 --> 00:43:55,730 S2: He was put on a committee after the Declaration of 728 00:43:55,730 --> 00:43:58,569 S2: Independence to come up with the idea, a concept for 729 00:43:58,570 --> 00:44:01,130 S2: a national seal. Well, what did he pick for a 730 00:44:01,130 --> 00:44:04,729 S2: national seal of the new nation? An image of the 731 00:44:04,730 --> 00:44:09,530 S2: Jewish people from the Bible fleeing Egypt and following God 732 00:44:09,530 --> 00:44:13,529 S2: into the Promised Land. Now, that's hardly the idea of 733 00:44:13,530 --> 00:44:14,330 S2: a humanist. 734 00:44:15,450 --> 00:44:18,569 S1: I agree, I agree. Fascinating discussion. And it's gone, in 735 00:44:18,570 --> 00:44:21,410 S1: my opinion, far too quickly. Thank you rod, from the 736 00:44:21,410 --> 00:44:23,730 S1: bottom of my heart and friends, there is oh so 737 00:44:23,770 --> 00:44:26,129 S1: much more that we weren't able to cover. Check out 738 00:44:26,130 --> 00:44:29,370 S1: in the market with Janet Dot on the right hand side, 739 00:44:29,370 --> 00:44:32,250 S1: there's the book By the Hand of Providence. See you 740 00:44:32,250 --> 00:44:32,890 S1: next time.