1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,239 S1: One verse, just one verse from the New Testament. That's 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,960 S1: what we're going to consider today at the radio backyard fence. 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,000 S1: It is one of the most quoted verses I have 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,520 S1: heard on this program through the years. It's a verse 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,000 S1: you have been encouraged to memorize. Maybe you have. And 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,239 S1: our guest today asks a provocative question in a new 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:30,240 S1: booklet that he wrote, can we still believe in Romans 828? 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,680 S1: That's our topic today with author and speaker doctor Ray Pritchard. 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,200 S1: As soon as I saw his little booklet, I thought, 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,240 S1: that is what we need to unpack on the program, 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:41,319 S1: and we're going to do it straight ahead. Buckle up. 12 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,960 S1: Get ready for a real life conversation on the program. 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,760 S1: For the heart. To the heart from the heart. Let 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,080 S1: me thank our team behind the scenes. Ryan McConaughey doing 15 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,040 S1: all things technical. Tricia's our producer. Lisa's helping out. Josh 16 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,280 S1: will be answering your calls today. And for those friends 17 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,160 S1: and partners who have given in February, I say a 18 00:00:59,340 --> 00:01:03,580 S1: hearty thank you. It's the 26th of February and this 19 00:01:03,580 --> 00:01:08,140 S1: month has only 28 days. You do the math. But wait, 20 00:01:08,140 --> 00:01:10,420 S1: there's still time. If you haven't given a gift to 21 00:01:10,459 --> 00:01:12,899 S1: receive the brand new book by Gary and the parrots, 22 00:01:13,220 --> 00:01:17,180 S1: the love Language that matters most. Spoiler alert Gary gives 23 00:01:17,180 --> 00:01:20,020 S1: it away. On the back cover. He writes, the love 24 00:01:20,020 --> 00:01:23,620 S1: language that matters most is the one your loved one 25 00:01:23,620 --> 00:01:27,340 S1: is longing to hear. And if you heard Doctors Less 26 00:01:27,340 --> 00:01:30,860 S1: and Lesley Parrot on Tuesday, you know that you can 27 00:01:30,860 --> 00:01:34,340 S1: know that person's love language, even speak that love language, 28 00:01:34,340 --> 00:01:38,420 S1: and still not have it sink in deeply into their heart. 29 00:01:38,420 --> 00:01:41,500 S1: And that's where dialects come in. Would love to send 30 00:01:41,500 --> 00:01:44,220 S1: you a copy. Give a gift of any size. Today 31 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:48,340 S1: we reached our financial goal mainly because of a listener 32 00:01:48,340 --> 00:01:50,580 S1: who gave a large gift a couple of weeks ago. 33 00:01:50,580 --> 00:01:53,740 S1: So thank you for that. But we are still 19 34 00:01:53,740 --> 00:01:56,820 S1: gifts away from our people goal. We have a financial 35 00:01:56,860 --> 00:01:59,650 S1: goal and a people goal every month. 19. Away. You'd 36 00:01:59,650 --> 00:02:02,250 S1: be one of the 19 call or click through. It's simple. 37 00:02:02,250 --> 00:02:09,090 S1: It's easy. It's quick at Chris. Or you can call 86695. 38 00:02:09,690 --> 00:02:12,690 S1: Only two days left to take the pivotal next step 39 00:02:12,690 --> 00:02:15,570 S1: in the love language revolution. Are you ready? Go to 40 00:02:15,610 --> 00:02:23,930 S1: Chris or call (866) 953-2279. And thank you for your support 41 00:02:23,930 --> 00:02:27,690 S1: of the radio. Backyard fence doctor Ray Pritchard serves as 42 00:02:27,690 --> 00:02:31,250 S1: president of Keep Believing Ministries for 26 years. He pastored 43 00:02:31,250 --> 00:02:35,930 S1: churches in LA and Dallas and Chicago. Graduate of Tennessee Temple, 44 00:02:35,930 --> 00:02:40,210 S1: Dallas Theological, and Talbot School of Theology, he's written a 45 00:02:40,210 --> 00:02:44,930 S1: number of books, booklets, articles, helpful materials. He speaks around 46 00:02:44,930 --> 00:02:49,450 S1: the world literally. And today's featured resource is a free download. 47 00:02:49,450 --> 00:02:52,930 S1: I saw it, I got this email and I said, boy, 48 00:02:52,970 --> 00:02:55,530 S1: I want to talk with Ray about this. It's like 49 00:02:55,530 --> 00:02:59,790 S1: 14 pages long, but there's a lot in here, and 50 00:02:59,790 --> 00:03:02,709 S1: they do have printed copies available at a small cost 51 00:03:02,710 --> 00:03:08,710 S1: if you want that. We have links at the website. Chris. Ray. 52 00:03:08,710 --> 00:03:10,270 S1: Welcome back. How you doing today? 53 00:03:10,590 --> 00:03:14,070 S2: Oh, Chris doing great. Good to be with you again today. 54 00:03:14,350 --> 00:03:17,390 S1: Same here, my friend. Uh, hey, that's a good idea 55 00:03:17,750 --> 00:03:20,150 S1: for you. For the. See, we're having a little technical 56 00:03:20,150 --> 00:03:23,950 S1: difficulty with Ray today, and I asked Ray, does this 57 00:03:23,950 --> 00:03:26,230 S1: work for good for us? You know, if we're having 58 00:03:26,230 --> 00:03:27,990 S1: these kind of problems, what do you say? 59 00:03:28,990 --> 00:03:31,310 S2: Uh, yeah, it does, and it works better for good 60 00:03:31,310 --> 00:03:34,030 S2: if I pull my microphone away from my ear when 61 00:03:34,030 --> 00:03:36,510 S2: I'm talking. But, yeah, it's all good. And, Chris, it's 62 00:03:36,510 --> 00:03:37,870 S2: great to be with you again. 63 00:03:38,350 --> 00:03:41,110 S1: Okay, so why did you want to drill down on 64 00:03:41,110 --> 00:03:42,350 S1: Romans 828? 65 00:03:43,310 --> 00:03:48,470 S2: Well, look, if we took a survey of evangelical Christians 66 00:03:48,470 --> 00:03:53,190 S2: and asked them to name their favorite Bible verse in 67 00:03:53,230 --> 00:03:58,180 S2: any survey, Romans 828. It might be number one, Chris. 68 00:03:58,380 --> 00:04:01,300 S2: It's certainly going to be in the top ten. This 69 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:07,060 S2: is one of the most loved, quoted, memorized verses. I mean, 70 00:04:07,100 --> 00:04:09,420 S2: people cross stitch it and they put it up on 71 00:04:09,420 --> 00:04:12,780 S2: their wall. Uh, we send it to each other, especially 72 00:04:12,780 --> 00:04:15,500 S2: when a friend is going through a hard time. And 73 00:04:15,700 --> 00:04:19,660 S2: I guess I think sometimes one thing that's good to 74 00:04:19,660 --> 00:04:23,180 S2: do when there's a really famous verse of the Bible, 75 00:04:23,220 --> 00:04:26,060 S2: you just go back and ask ourselves, what is this 76 00:04:26,060 --> 00:04:30,620 S2: verse actually really saying? What does it really mean? Sometimes, Chris, 77 00:04:30,620 --> 00:04:33,500 S2: I think we can hear sometimes I guess I'd say 78 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:35,940 S2: it this way. You can you can hear the Bible 79 00:04:35,940 --> 00:04:39,780 S2: so much that you that it has lost its ability 80 00:04:39,779 --> 00:04:42,500 S2: to shock you or encourage you or inspire you. And 81 00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:47,339 S2: I think maybe that's happened with this wonderful verse. Romans 828. 82 00:04:47,740 --> 00:04:52,020 S1: Okay, so I read it this morning in the Holman 83 00:04:52,260 --> 00:04:57,160 S1: CSB and it says this. We know that all things 84 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,840 S1: work together for the good of those who love God, 85 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,480 S1: who are called according to his purpose. That's what it 86 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,840 S1: says in the King, James says, and we know that 87 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,720 S1: all things work together for good to them that love God, 88 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,600 S1: to them who are called according to his purpose. And IV. 89 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,520 S1: And we know that in all things God works for 90 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,680 S1: the good of those who love him, who have been 91 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:31,200 S1: called according to his purpose. And then, New American Standard, 1995. 92 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,520 S1: And we know that God causes all things to work 93 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,080 S1: together for good to those who love God, to those 94 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:42,080 S1: who are called according to his purpose. So there's four. 95 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,880 S1: And those are very close, but there's a couple of 96 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:50,120 S1: them that have God earlier and then God later. So 97 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:51,080 S1: talk about that. 98 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:56,150 S2: Well, I think in the traditional version, the King James. 99 00:05:56,150 --> 00:05:58,710 S2: And let me be clear, I love the King James. 100 00:05:58,710 --> 00:06:02,470 S2: Nothing wrong with the King James Version of Romans 828, 101 00:06:02,630 --> 00:06:05,590 S2: but if you read it this way, all things work 102 00:06:05,589 --> 00:06:09,670 S2: together for good to them that love God. God shows 103 00:06:09,670 --> 00:06:14,789 S2: up late in the verse. And these modern translations, like 104 00:06:14,790 --> 00:06:18,350 S2: the NIV and like the New American, they bring God 105 00:06:18,430 --> 00:06:21,469 S2: right up to the front. And I think that's an 106 00:06:21,470 --> 00:06:26,310 S2: important thing for us to think about, that sometimes we 107 00:06:26,510 --> 00:06:29,190 S2: we look at the tragedies of life and we try 108 00:06:29,190 --> 00:06:32,950 S2: to stick God in there somewhere. We know, we know 109 00:06:32,950 --> 00:06:36,630 S2: he's involved somehow. We want to stick him in there somewhere. 110 00:06:36,630 --> 00:06:40,349 S2: I think the modern translations at least challenge us to 111 00:06:40,390 --> 00:06:43,349 S2: say God is not just there at the end of 112 00:06:43,350 --> 00:06:46,270 S2: what happens to us. He's there at the beginning, he's 113 00:06:46,270 --> 00:06:48,909 S2: there in the middle, and I mean in the worst 114 00:06:48,910 --> 00:06:51,310 S2: things that life can throw at us the death of 115 00:06:51,490 --> 00:06:56,610 S2: a child. A friend who died suddenly of cancer. Uh, somebody. 116 00:06:56,850 --> 00:07:00,290 S2: Two soldiers go off to war. One comes back, one doesn't. 117 00:07:00,330 --> 00:07:02,529 S2: I mean, all the floods and textures of life. 118 00:07:02,570 --> 00:07:03,330 S1: You were on with me. 119 00:07:03,330 --> 00:07:05,529 S2: About to say. God's there. 120 00:07:05,810 --> 00:07:07,730 S1: You were on with me about the floods in Texas. 121 00:07:07,730 --> 00:07:11,490 S1: Remember that. You send your daughters to this camp, this 122 00:07:11,530 --> 00:07:16,450 S1: camp for Christian girls. And a flood rushes through there, 123 00:07:16,450 --> 00:07:20,250 S1: and many of them die because of the floodwaters. And 124 00:07:20,250 --> 00:07:24,610 S1: you're telling you're reading eight Romans 828. All things work 125 00:07:24,610 --> 00:07:29,610 S1: together for good. Even this tragedy here, that's that's what 126 00:07:29,610 --> 00:07:33,810 S1: you have to, uh, have to pull apart. Right. 127 00:07:34,890 --> 00:07:39,250 S2: Well, let me let me, uh, add something here, Chris, 128 00:07:39,250 --> 00:07:44,370 S2: because my writing of this goes back 40 years to 129 00:07:44,370 --> 00:07:47,330 S2: when I was much younger. Back then, I was in 130 00:07:47,330 --> 00:07:51,750 S2: a doctoral seminar out at Talbot School of Theology in 131 00:07:51,750 --> 00:07:56,110 S2: La mirada, California, and on one hot afternoon, Doctor Vernon Grounds, 132 00:07:56,110 --> 00:07:59,750 S2: who was longtime president of Denver Seminary and a very 133 00:07:59,750 --> 00:08:03,470 S2: great man. He was our teacher that week talking about 134 00:08:03,470 --> 00:08:07,430 S2: crisis counseling. Wonderful, wonderful man. I still have the notes 135 00:08:07,670 --> 00:08:11,070 S2: where he just started talking about this verse. He spent 136 00:08:11,070 --> 00:08:16,470 S2: an hour going through Romans 828, and I wrote down 137 00:08:16,470 --> 00:08:19,310 S2: page after page after page was the first time in 138 00:08:19,310 --> 00:08:22,270 S2: my life I'd thought about this verse in Doctor Graham's 139 00:08:22,310 --> 00:08:26,590 S2: pointed out that we have two problems. Well, maybe more 140 00:08:26,590 --> 00:08:29,150 S2: than two, but two basic problems. Chris, with this verse 141 00:08:29,150 --> 00:08:33,990 S2: number one, uh, Paul, is to certain, Paul says, for 142 00:08:33,990 --> 00:08:37,309 S2: we know we might want to say, well, we think, 143 00:08:37,590 --> 00:08:40,790 S2: we hope so. We pray it is so. But Paul's 144 00:08:40,790 --> 00:08:44,470 S2: very dogmatic about this. We know and we also think 145 00:08:44,470 --> 00:08:48,230 S2: he's too inclusive. All things we're already all of us 146 00:08:48,230 --> 00:08:51,500 S2: are quite willing to say we believe some things work 147 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:55,420 S2: together for good, maybe even most things. But when you 148 00:08:55,420 --> 00:09:01,260 S2: look at what happened at camp mystic and and it's 149 00:09:01,260 --> 00:09:04,740 S2: hard even now, months later, to, to to know how 150 00:09:04,740 --> 00:09:07,819 S2: to frame it. Right. But we at least have to 151 00:09:07,860 --> 00:09:12,260 S2: say that what happened that night must be included in 152 00:09:12,260 --> 00:09:16,140 S2: the all things, because that's what the Bible really says. 153 00:09:17,580 --> 00:09:21,340 S1: Bingo. And that's why it's so hard. And that's why 154 00:09:21,860 --> 00:09:25,740 S1: there's somebody listening right now, Ray. I'm sure of it. Um, 155 00:09:25,860 --> 00:09:29,340 S1: because this is kind of ubiquitous. Who has been hurt 156 00:09:29,340 --> 00:09:33,420 S1: by this verse, who has had some, uh, something like 157 00:09:33,420 --> 00:09:38,460 S1: that happen to them and that has been thrown at them, uh, 158 00:09:38,460 --> 00:09:42,540 S1: or a phrase, uh, everything happens for a reason, you know? Yeah. 159 00:09:42,580 --> 00:09:45,580 S1: Your dad died in an accident or tornado hit your 160 00:09:45,580 --> 00:09:49,480 S1: church and killed 15 people. Well, everything happens for a reason, 161 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,760 S1: and it's been used as a cudgel. And Romans 828 162 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,000 S1: can be used that same way. And I want to 163 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:02,720 S1: let me do this. (877) 548-3675 has that verse encouraged you 164 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,720 S1: in some struggle in your life, or has it been 165 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,120 S1: used or misused in your life and you've been hurt 166 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:16,360 S1: by it? (877) 548-3675. If you go to Chris Dot, we 167 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,360 S1: have a link to can we still believe in Romans 828? 168 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,559 S1: It's a free download or you can order a booklet 169 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,800 S1: or booklets from Keep Believing Ministries. We got the link 170 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:41,959 S1: right there Chris Fabry live. Oh. Can we still believe 171 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,280 S1: in Romans 828? Doctor Ray Pritchard is with us today 172 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,990 S1: at the radio backyard fence. And if you go to 173 00:10:48,030 --> 00:10:52,070 S1: Chris favorite archive.org, you're going to see a link to 174 00:10:52,110 --> 00:10:55,150 S1: that booklet that he has written that I've gone through. 175 00:10:55,190 --> 00:10:58,230 S1: It's only 14 pages, but it has stories in there 176 00:10:58,550 --> 00:11:02,470 S1: of situations that he has been through, and it's trying 177 00:11:02,470 --> 00:11:05,390 S1: to parse out. And what you said about Vernon Grounds 178 00:11:05,390 --> 00:11:09,390 S1: just a minute ago, the the two problems we have 179 00:11:09,390 --> 00:11:13,190 S1: with what Paul has written here is we have trouble 180 00:11:13,230 --> 00:11:18,550 S1: believing his certainty. We know. And then we they include 181 00:11:18,550 --> 00:11:23,069 S1: things Paul includes things we think ought to be left out. 182 00:11:23,110 --> 00:11:27,590 S1: Everything is not good. You know, somebody dies. That's not good. 183 00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:30,710 S1: So we get we have to get to the the 184 00:11:30,750 --> 00:11:33,230 S1: whole definition of what good means. And you do that 185 00:11:33,230 --> 00:11:37,309 S1: in the booklet. But let's continue. Can you tell me 186 00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:42,790 S1: why is any verse that starts with but or therefore 187 00:11:42,830 --> 00:11:47,130 S1: or and you got to look at what comes before that. 188 00:11:47,130 --> 00:11:52,610 S1: And the the chapter of Romans eight begins. Therefore, there 189 00:11:52,610 --> 00:11:57,770 S1: is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 190 00:11:57,890 --> 00:12:01,770 S1: So what is he doing for the first 27 verses 191 00:12:01,770 --> 00:12:03,650 S1: in that chapter, do you think? 192 00:12:04,250 --> 00:12:08,250 S2: Well, number one, he's going to say exactly what you 193 00:12:08,250 --> 00:12:11,130 S2: just said, that there is no condemnation. If you are 194 00:12:11,130 --> 00:12:15,569 S2: in Jesus Christ, you are justified. You are declared righteous. 195 00:12:15,610 --> 00:12:20,090 S2: You are in Christ. Your sins are forgiven. The Holy 196 00:12:20,090 --> 00:12:22,890 S2: Spirit has come to live within you. In fact, in 197 00:12:22,929 --> 00:12:27,930 S2: the two verses just preceding Romans 828, the the spirit, 198 00:12:28,929 --> 00:12:32,850 S2: the spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be 199 00:12:32,850 --> 00:12:36,010 S2: put into words, that we have the Holy Spirit, who, 200 00:12:36,210 --> 00:12:40,010 S2: when we literally we're too tired, we're too worn out, 201 00:12:40,010 --> 00:12:43,430 S2: we're too scared. When the words won't come, the Holy 202 00:12:43,429 --> 00:12:48,070 S2: Spirit prays for us. And his further explanation then is 203 00:12:48,270 --> 00:12:53,309 S2: we know. We know when life seems to be falling apart, 204 00:12:53,309 --> 00:12:57,230 S2: that all things are working together in some way we 205 00:12:57,230 --> 00:13:01,510 S2: will not always see or completely understand for our good 206 00:13:01,510 --> 00:13:05,910 S2: and for God's glory. And so Romans eight starts with 207 00:13:05,910 --> 00:13:10,150 S2: no condemnation. It ends up with no separation. And this 208 00:13:10,150 --> 00:13:13,990 S2: verse just fits right in here with a a. If 209 00:13:14,030 --> 00:13:17,870 S2: you ask the question, Paul, how can you be so dogmatic? 210 00:13:17,870 --> 00:13:20,830 S2: How can you be so sure? And Paul, I don't 211 00:13:20,830 --> 00:13:24,030 S2: think he is arguing. We can look at the tragedies 212 00:13:24,030 --> 00:13:27,670 S2: of life and know why this happened or why that happened. 213 00:13:27,830 --> 00:13:30,350 S2: You have to start with God, which is why it's 214 00:13:30,350 --> 00:13:33,910 S2: so important to bring God where he belongs, right up 215 00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:35,550 S2: to the front part of that verse. 216 00:13:35,710 --> 00:13:38,990 S1: Okay, I like what you write when you say, in reality, 217 00:13:39,030 --> 00:13:40,949 S1: God is there at the beginning, at the end, every 218 00:13:40,950 --> 00:13:44,340 S1: point in between. And that answers the great question Where 219 00:13:44,340 --> 00:13:46,140 S1: is God when it hurts? Is he there at the 220 00:13:46,140 --> 00:13:48,380 S1: beginning or is he there only at the end? The 221 00:13:48,380 --> 00:13:51,780 S1: answer is that Romans 828 begins with God. He was 222 00:13:51,780 --> 00:13:55,100 S1: there before it all happened. He is there when it happens, 223 00:13:55,100 --> 00:13:57,699 S1: and he is still there after it's all over. And 224 00:13:57,700 --> 00:14:01,740 S1: then you say that forever puts an end to the 225 00:14:01,780 --> 00:14:06,300 S1: happily ever after ism that says no matter what happens, 226 00:14:06,420 --> 00:14:11,459 S1: God will turn tragedy into a blessing. That's fine for 227 00:14:11,460 --> 00:14:16,180 S1: fairy tales, but not for real life. So how is 228 00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:21,180 S1: how is Romans 828 not happily ever after? ISM. 229 00:14:23,460 --> 00:14:27,180 S2: You know, I do actually believe God can take anything 230 00:14:27,180 --> 00:14:31,100 S2: that happens to us and turn it into a blessing. 231 00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:34,900 S2: Or let me say, better. He can work out of 232 00:14:34,900 --> 00:14:37,780 S2: our tears and out of our sadness, and out of 233 00:14:37,780 --> 00:14:42,560 S2: our doubt to bring us Blessings of wisdom and insight 234 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:47,160 S2: and spiritual growth that couldn't come any other way. So 235 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,280 S2: I'm happy to say God does work and God does 236 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:55,000 S2: bring blessing. However, when a child dies, when a man 237 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,920 S2: is suddenly fired from his job, when a marriage breaks 238 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:03,240 S2: up those things in and of themselves, they are not good. 239 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,120 S2: But God is able to work in, with, and through 240 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,840 S2: what happens to us over, over a long period of 241 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,800 S2: time to bring to us blessings and encouragement and hope 242 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,840 S2: and tested character. I mean, that's part of Romans two 243 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,120 S2: tested character. Um, the God's able to develop in us 244 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,120 S2: good things that could not happen any other way. 245 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,720 S1: You know where I see this? And I think we've 246 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,360 S1: talked about this before, but I see it so starkly, 247 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:38,320 S1: and that is in Gethsemane and the agony of Jesus 248 00:15:38,470 --> 00:15:43,110 S1: knowing the father's will. And still, if it be your will. 249 00:15:43,150 --> 00:15:45,070 S1: You take this? I don't want to drink this cup. 250 00:15:45,070 --> 00:15:48,750 S1: But no matter what, it's your will, not mine. And 251 00:15:48,750 --> 00:15:52,510 S1: the struggle there. And I and some people would say 252 00:15:52,510 --> 00:15:55,510 S1: to Jesus, I don't think they would say it because 253 00:15:55,510 --> 00:15:58,870 S1: they they know not to, but they would say, hey, 254 00:15:58,910 --> 00:16:03,110 S1: you know, buck up, Jesus, the salvation of mankind, you're 255 00:16:03,110 --> 00:16:04,710 S1: going to pay for the sins of the world. You 256 00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:08,150 S1: ought to be happy here. Uh, and so that's why 257 00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:12,390 S1: you say that the Bible doesn't pretend. It never asks 258 00:16:12,390 --> 00:16:16,390 S1: us to pretend that tragedy isn't tragedy, or to pretend 259 00:16:16,390 --> 00:16:18,950 S1: that our pain isn't real. Right. 260 00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:25,070 S2: And I think that's a hugely important point. The Bible 261 00:16:25,070 --> 00:16:29,430 S2: never asks us to deny reality. We don't have to 262 00:16:29,470 --> 00:16:35,270 S2: pretend that, uh. Well, I'm thinking about. I mean, we 263 00:16:35,310 --> 00:16:40,170 S2: talked camp mystic. That's. that's hard to talk about, but 264 00:16:40,170 --> 00:16:43,330 S2: the Bible doesn't ask us to pretend that there wasn't 265 00:16:43,370 --> 00:16:46,610 S2: a tragedy that night, that death is not real. It 266 00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:49,570 S2: doesn't ask us to pretend that our hearts are not broken, 267 00:16:49,570 --> 00:16:54,250 S2: and that families are torn apart and life is changed forever. 268 00:16:54,250 --> 00:16:58,370 S2: But this verse is reminding us that in the worst 269 00:16:58,370 --> 00:17:02,210 S2: that happens to us, in the midst of it and 270 00:17:02,210 --> 00:17:06,129 S2: through what happens to us, God is able to make things. 271 00:17:06,130 --> 00:17:10,050 S2: And we haven't talked about this yet. Chris. Work together, 272 00:17:10,330 --> 00:17:15,530 S2: work together to produce something that could not happen any 273 00:17:15,530 --> 00:17:16,210 S2: other way. 274 00:17:16,530 --> 00:17:19,530 S1: Okay, so what does work together mean? 275 00:17:20,290 --> 00:17:27,409 S2: Okay, the Greek word sunnerhagen, literally, literally sunnerhagen is worked together. 276 00:17:27,810 --> 00:17:30,889 S2: We get the English word synergy from it. What synergy? 277 00:17:30,930 --> 00:17:35,689 S2: It's it's two different things which when put together in 278 00:17:35,690 --> 00:17:41,119 S2: some kind of combustible formation, out comes something. A third 279 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,879 S2: thing that could not happen any other way. And, uh, 280 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,480 S2: use the illustration in this little booklet of, uh, Marlene 281 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,960 S2: making John Madden's Super Bowl stew, which is, by the way, friends, 282 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,760 S2: a very real thing. It's the best Super Bowl stool 283 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,040 S2: in the world. We found it. Now, this will date 284 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:04,320 S2: me in a parade magazine Sunday insert. I mean, most 285 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,159 S2: of our listeners, if you're under 50, you don't know 286 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,440 S2: what I'm talking about. But back in the day, the 287 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,879 S2: parade magazine and way back, this was before, 40 years ago, 288 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,680 S2: Marlene found the recipe for John Madden Super Bowl stew. 289 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,239 S2: And every year at Super Bowl, she makes it for me. 290 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,520 S2: Some big chunks of meat. And it's got your potatoes 291 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,000 S2: and got your, uh, your carrots. And it's got things 292 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,280 S2: like rutabagas and turnips in there and a lot of 293 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,399 S2: other secret stuff I don't know anything about. Now left 294 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,780 S2: to myself. If, Chris, if you took me to the 295 00:18:37,780 --> 00:18:40,580 S2: supermarket and said, go find a rutabaga, I don't even 296 00:18:40,580 --> 00:18:42,620 S2: know what they look like. Okay. If it doesn't have 297 00:18:42,619 --> 00:18:45,140 S2: the sign, I couldn't find it myself. I'm never going 298 00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:49,780 S2: to voluntarily eat a turnip by myself. Okay, other people, 299 00:18:49,980 --> 00:18:55,659 S2: your mileage may vary. All right. But soon. Aragon. Synergy. 300 00:18:55,940 --> 00:18:58,580 S2: When you take the potatoes and the carrots and the 301 00:18:58,580 --> 00:19:01,780 S2: meat and the gravy and the rutabagas and the turnips 302 00:19:01,780 --> 00:19:05,860 S2: and the onions and all those other secret ingredients, they. 303 00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:09,740 S2: What happens in that pot over a few hours? Is 304 00:19:09,740 --> 00:19:15,700 S2: synergy something divine? Some a gastronomic miracle takes place there, 305 00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:21,500 S2: produces the best stew I've ever had. That's a homey illustration, 306 00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:25,780 S2: but that's what Paul is talking about. There are many 307 00:19:25,780 --> 00:19:32,780 S2: things in life which, seen in isolation, make no sense. 308 00:19:32,820 --> 00:19:37,159 S2: Make no sense. Paul is saying that even when we 309 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,080 S2: don't see it, there is a divine synergy at work 310 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,600 S2: in the darkest moments that produces something positive, something that 311 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,920 S2: is good, something that could not come any other way. 312 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,200 S1: I would say that if Marlene serves that without cornbread, 313 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,960 S1: you got to go and get some cornbread. That's what 314 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:58,520 S1: I say. 315 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,119 S2: Well, first of all, in in 40 years, she's never 316 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,000 S2: served it without cornbread, right? Right. I mean, come on, 317 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,719 S2: you got to have it. And by the way, French. 318 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,040 S2: Look it up. John Madden, Super Bowl stew. It really 319 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,760 S2: is that good. Okay, let me give this little poem 320 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,080 S2: that preachers have been quoting for years. I walked a 321 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,760 S2: mile with pleasure. She chattered all the way, but I 322 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,920 S2: was none the wiser for all she had to say. 323 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,720 S2: Then I walked a mile with sorrow. And ne'er a 324 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,470 S2: word said she. But oh, the lessons I did learn 325 00:20:33,670 --> 00:20:39,510 S2: when sorrow walked with me. Okay, let me take this illustration. Uh, Chris, 326 00:20:39,550 --> 00:20:44,030 S2: one step further. Book of Ecclesiastes says it's better to 327 00:20:44,030 --> 00:20:46,550 S2: be in the house of sorrow than in the house 328 00:20:46,550 --> 00:20:50,550 S2: of feasting. Over the years, I have been to many 329 00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:55,030 S2: Super Bowl parties hosted by many good friends. You go, 330 00:20:55,030 --> 00:20:57,830 S2: you get the chips and the dips and all the 331 00:20:57,830 --> 00:21:00,830 S2: stuff on the tray there. You watch the Super Bowl, 332 00:21:01,030 --> 00:21:04,110 S2: you cheer for your team. And Chris, I can say 333 00:21:04,109 --> 00:21:07,070 S2: this I've had fun at all those parties. I have 334 00:21:07,109 --> 00:21:10,629 S2: yet to learn one thing useful, or gain any spiritual 335 00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:14,550 S2: insight from any Super Bowl party I've ever been to. 336 00:21:15,350 --> 00:21:20,710 S2: Over the years I have officiated many, many, many funerals. 337 00:21:20,710 --> 00:21:23,830 S2: Some of them sad occasions, some of them great celebrations. 338 00:21:23,950 --> 00:21:27,109 S2: I've never been to one that didn't teach me something 339 00:21:27,109 --> 00:21:32,010 S2: important that I couldn't learn any other way. And so 340 00:21:32,010 --> 00:21:35,410 S2: it is with all the affairs of life. We learn 341 00:21:35,410 --> 00:21:38,369 S2: more from sorrow than we do from pleasure. We learn 342 00:21:38,369 --> 00:21:41,850 S2: more at midnight than we do at noonday. 343 00:21:42,250 --> 00:21:46,770 S1: Bingo. Can we still believe in Romans 828? That is 344 00:21:46,770 --> 00:21:50,410 S1: the provocative question that Ray Pritchard has for us today, 345 00:21:50,410 --> 00:21:52,770 S1: and he's written about it in this little booklet by 346 00:21:52,770 --> 00:21:54,810 S1: the same title. You can get it as a free 347 00:21:54,850 --> 00:21:58,169 S1: download if you want a printed version. We have a 348 00:21:58,170 --> 00:22:00,449 S1: link to that as well. But I want to hear 349 00:22:00,450 --> 00:22:08,090 S1: from you at (877) 548-3675. Grace is on the line in Illinois. Hi, Grace. 350 00:22:08,130 --> 00:22:08,890 S1: Go right ahead. 351 00:22:09,890 --> 00:22:13,370 S3: Hi. So I feel like for the longest time, you know, 352 00:22:13,410 --> 00:22:17,090 S3: I was angry at people that would share this verse 353 00:22:17,090 --> 00:22:22,890 S3: with me. But recently, last month, my mother passed away, and, um, 354 00:22:22,930 --> 00:22:25,610 S3: it was a long journey for her with cancer. And 355 00:22:25,609 --> 00:22:27,609 S3: it took away her ability to be the mom I 356 00:22:27,609 --> 00:22:31,640 S3: know she wanted to be. But through that, I don't 357 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,840 S3: think I would be the mother that I am today 358 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,280 S3: if I didn't yearn for that relationship with her. 359 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,840 S1: Hmm. So you see, how do you interpret, then? Romans 360 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,960 S1: 828 through that experience? 361 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,320 S3: I believe I was meant to struggle with my mom 362 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:56,000 S3: and through our relationship, to strive so hard every day 363 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,080 S3: to be the mom that my girls deserve. 364 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,440 S1: I think I'm glad you got through today, Grace. Ray, 365 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:03,359 S1: what do you say to that? 366 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,479 S2: Well, first of all, Grace, I'm really, really sorry to 367 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,919 S2: hear about your mom and her battle with cancer. But 368 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,520 S2: it sounds to me like you have come to a 369 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,320 S2: new place. A better place spiritually. The God used the 370 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,320 S2: long journey that you were on with your mom to 371 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,920 S2: to deepen your faith and to help you with your 372 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,300 S2: own children. So, Grace. God bless you and thank you 373 00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:31,340 S2: so much for calling. 374 00:23:32,020 --> 00:23:37,220 S1: Susie says this. Maybe sometimes it's misleading in that for 375 00:23:37,220 --> 00:23:43,020 S1: good actually means for the good or benefit as opposed 376 00:23:43,020 --> 00:23:46,100 S1: to God is good and he does all good things 377 00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:49,300 S1: to those who love him. She says, I also, I 378 00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:54,060 S1: think verse 29 has to go with a further explanation, i.e. 379 00:23:54,140 --> 00:23:58,500 S1: to be conformed to his image. He is working for 380 00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:02,500 S1: our benefit with the goal of conforming us to the 381 00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:06,180 S1: image of Christ, but not so that everything in our 382 00:24:06,180 --> 00:24:10,619 S1: lives turns out good. Otherwise, I can't make sense of 383 00:24:10,619 --> 00:24:12,939 S1: things in my life that don't seem good. What do 384 00:24:12,940 --> 00:24:14,380 S1: you think of what Susie says? 385 00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:18,540 S2: Well, first of all, she's 100% correct. And let me 386 00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:24,300 S2: just read, Chris Romans 829 key, because this verse explains 387 00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:30,080 S2: Romans 828 for those whom God foreknew, he also hears 388 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:36,719 S2: that great word predestined. He predestined us to be conformed 389 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,280 S2: to the likeness of His Son. That makes it very, 390 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:45,520 S2: very clear. God has predestined you and me to an 391 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,560 S2: inevitable end and that certain end. That's the good of 392 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,880 S2: Romans 828, Chris. God wants to make you and me 393 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,880 S2: like Jesus. I cannot speak for you, my friend, but 394 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,800 S2: I will speak for myself. I'm clearly a long term 395 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,040 S2: project God's been working with, working on me to make 396 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:10,399 S2: me like Jesus for 57 years now. And honestly, there 397 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,800 S2: are days when I can see I've made some progress, some, 398 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,600 S2: you know, and there's a whole bunch of days when 399 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,920 S2: I feel like I have taken the hammer and chisel, 400 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,560 S2: and I've just marked myself up and slid backwards and 401 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,710 S2: just sometimes. Chris know most of the time I got 402 00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:31,390 S2: to admit I am my own worst enemy in terms 403 00:25:31,390 --> 00:25:33,470 S2: of becoming like Jesus. Yeah. 404 00:25:33,790 --> 00:25:36,870 S1: Well, that's Ray Pritchard. I want your answer to that question. 405 00:25:36,869 --> 00:25:40,389 S1: Can we still believe in Romans 828? If you're on 406 00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:46,190 S1: the line, hang on. If you want to call (877) 548-3675, 407 00:25:46,270 --> 00:25:48,149 S1: find out how you can get a copy at the 408 00:25:48,150 --> 00:26:04,750 S1: website Chris Barrie live. Today on Chris Fabry Live we 409 00:26:04,790 --> 00:26:08,070 S1: are dealing with one verse. I've heard it so many 410 00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:11,070 S1: times that when Doctor Van Landingham comes along, this is 411 00:26:11,070 --> 00:26:15,869 S1: his life. Verse Romans 828 and Ray Pritchard is with us. 412 00:26:16,109 --> 00:26:20,629 S1: Can we still believe in Romans 828, meaning with all 413 00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:23,969 S1: the bad stuff that's going on, is this still It's true. 414 00:26:24,530 --> 00:26:28,170 S1: You can find a link to the download free download, 415 00:26:28,170 --> 00:26:31,170 S1: or you can get a copy of printed copy of 416 00:26:31,170 --> 00:26:34,929 S1: it from Keep Believing Ministries. Real quickly, let me tell 417 00:26:34,930 --> 00:26:38,010 S1: you about tomorrow's program. We're going to have a writers roundtable. 418 00:26:38,010 --> 00:26:42,889 S1: It's a perfect Friday conversation with Jerry Jenkins and Angela Hunt, 419 00:26:42,930 --> 00:26:47,410 S1: best selling authors and speakers. And here's the question. You 420 00:26:47,410 --> 00:26:50,890 S1: have a book idea or somebody you know, you've been 421 00:26:50,890 --> 00:26:54,530 S1: thinking about writing a book and and you you wake 422 00:26:54,530 --> 00:26:56,570 S1: up in the morning, you think, oh, I got to 423 00:26:56,570 --> 00:26:58,370 S1: do that. One of these days, I got to do that. 424 00:26:58,369 --> 00:27:01,570 S1: You feel like God has given you a passion to 425 00:27:01,609 --> 00:27:04,850 S1: write a story or write a nonfiction book, maybe about 426 00:27:04,850 --> 00:27:07,530 S1: Romans 828, but you don't know how to get that 427 00:27:07,530 --> 00:27:11,290 S1: idea from in here onto the page, and you certainly 428 00:27:11,290 --> 00:27:13,970 S1: don't know how to get it published. So tomorrow, I 429 00:27:13,970 --> 00:27:16,170 S1: want you to call in with the book that is 430 00:27:16,170 --> 00:27:18,609 S1: inside of you that you're trying to get from the 431 00:27:18,609 --> 00:27:22,760 S1: inside out. Jerry and Angela are going to be here 432 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,000 S1: to help you. And I will be a little help 433 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,200 S1: to make sure you join us. Then tomorrow right here 434 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,880 S1: on Chris Fabry live. All right. So Romans 828, for 435 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,159 S1: those who don't know, Romans 828. Ray, would you again 436 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,840 S1: read that in your favorite version? What does it say? 437 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:46,280 S2: And we know that all things work together for good 438 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,760 S2: to those who love God, who are called according to 439 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,240 S2: his purpose. And you can read it in the modern 440 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,399 S2: versions and the word shift around a little bit, but 441 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,000 S2: the meaning is the same. And this verse is beloved. 442 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,879 S2: And you know, Chris, it shocks some Christians to know 443 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,160 S2: that this verse has hurt some people. It's been used 444 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,879 S2: as a cudgel. It's been used, uh, buck up, buck up. God. 445 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,280 S2: God has a purpose in all this. If we can 446 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,419 S2: get past the stereotypes, there is wonderful truth. but we 447 00:28:21,460 --> 00:28:23,260 S2: got to work a little bit to get to it. 448 00:28:23,580 --> 00:28:26,580 S1: Well, and they'll say you have no reason to be sad. 449 00:28:26,580 --> 00:28:28,460 S1: You're supposed to have the joy of the Lord. And 450 00:28:28,460 --> 00:28:32,219 S1: so whatever it is that you lost your job or 451 00:28:32,220 --> 00:28:34,780 S1: you're having a hard time, hard time in your marriage 452 00:28:34,780 --> 00:28:37,899 S1: or whatever, you know, this happens for a reason. God's 453 00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:40,260 S1: going to turn it into good. Yes. And that's how 454 00:28:40,260 --> 00:28:43,620 S1: they will interpret it. And I don't blame people for 455 00:28:43,620 --> 00:28:46,380 S1: running headlong away screaming. Do you? 456 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:52,260 S2: Well, let's face it, most of us have trouble with 457 00:28:52,660 --> 00:28:57,020 S2: real sorrow. We have trouble with real grief. We have 458 00:28:57,020 --> 00:29:00,020 S2: trouble with real loss. We have. We don't know what 459 00:29:00,060 --> 00:29:04,700 S2: to say to people who struggle. And sometimes. Sometimes we 460 00:29:04,740 --> 00:29:08,580 S2: Christians can be really hard on our brothers and sisters 461 00:29:09,460 --> 00:29:11,660 S2: who have gone through a hard time and they quote, 462 00:29:11,660 --> 00:29:14,620 S2: don't bounce back the way we think they ought to. 463 00:29:15,020 --> 00:29:21,000 S2: And this verse, which is a wonderful promise, can seem like, uh. 464 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,280 S2: You seem like such a heavy burden. Almost like an 465 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,760 S2: anvil to hang around your neck. Come on. Can't you see? 466 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,240 S2: God is going to work this together for good. And 467 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,880 S2: really the problem, Chris? Let's be honest. The problem is 468 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,320 S2: not with the verse. The problem is with us. 469 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,000 S1: Yeah. Cindy is on the line. Cindy? Why did you 470 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:40,720 S1: call today? 471 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,440 S4: Hi. Um. This has been my life verse for the last. Well, 472 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,240 S4: now 26 years. Um, it became my life first when 473 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,160 S4: my dad, who was not a Christian and very against Christianity, uh, 474 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,080 S4: got saved ten months before he died. And he actually 475 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,240 S4: died during church. Um, they'd given him two weeks to live. 476 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,160 S4: He said, I'm going to spend it at a revival. 477 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:11,200 S4: So that was the actual verse that was, uh, being 478 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,240 S4: preached about. And he died to victory in Jesus. So 479 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,870 S4: that became my life verse. And it was actually a 480 00:30:19,310 --> 00:30:24,670 S4: kind of a praise thing. Fast forward to March of 24. 481 00:30:25,230 --> 00:30:29,469 S4: My mother, um, who had had a house fire seven 482 00:30:29,470 --> 00:30:33,670 S4: years prior, she had another house fire and this time 483 00:30:33,670 --> 00:30:39,190 S4: she did not survive. And I went through I'm still 484 00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:42,510 S4: going through it. Um, but I went through a lot 485 00:30:42,510 --> 00:30:45,750 S4: of grief and a lot of anger of, you know, 486 00:30:46,030 --> 00:30:48,030 S4: you know, I believe in you, God. But how could 487 00:30:48,030 --> 00:30:50,630 S4: you do this to my mother? How could you? How 488 00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:53,110 S4: could you destroy her body like this and dah dah dah. 489 00:30:53,550 --> 00:30:58,230 S4: So I had a lot of issues, um, going through it, 490 00:30:58,230 --> 00:31:01,350 S4: but that verse just kept popping back into my mind, 491 00:31:01,590 --> 00:31:05,310 S4: and I'm like, at that point it was, how could 492 00:31:05,310 --> 00:31:08,550 S4: God work this for good? And I can't tell you 493 00:31:08,590 --> 00:31:13,070 S4: how many times over the past two years that he 494 00:31:13,070 --> 00:31:18,490 S4: has worked for good. Um, there's just been so much 495 00:31:18,490 --> 00:31:22,450 S4: of testimony. Um, we we picked up and we moved 496 00:31:22,730 --> 00:31:25,770 S4: an hour away from where I had lived all my life. 497 00:31:26,370 --> 00:31:30,850 S4: And people ask, well, what brought you to canton, Illinois? 498 00:31:31,330 --> 00:31:35,130 S4: And I actually get to tell them my testimony. I 499 00:31:35,130 --> 00:31:37,930 S4: get to tell them my mother's testimony, and I get 500 00:31:37,930 --> 00:31:41,290 S4: to tell them my father's testimony. And it's all because 501 00:31:41,810 --> 00:31:46,610 S4: I finally realized what you were saying earlier. It's all things. 502 00:31:46,610 --> 00:31:49,690 S4: It's not just the good things. It's the bad things. 503 00:31:49,730 --> 00:31:53,810 S4: And and as the gal from Illinois was saying, it's not. 504 00:31:55,610 --> 00:32:00,610 S4: It's just I wouldn't be who I am either. Had 505 00:32:00,610 --> 00:32:03,410 S4: this not happened, I'm still grieving. I'm still going to 506 00:32:03,450 --> 00:32:08,250 S4: grieve till the day I die. But that verse reminds 507 00:32:08,250 --> 00:32:14,410 S4: me that it's he's got it handled. He knew before 508 00:32:14,410 --> 00:32:17,400 S4: my mother was even born. But that's what was going 509 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:18,040 S4: to happen. 510 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,440 S1: Here's the other thing, Cindy. You would not you would 511 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,960 S1: not be talking to us here today had you not 512 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,760 S1: gone through some of that experience. And there's somebody who 513 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,280 S1: is listening right now who has gone through some of 514 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,280 S1: those deep waters that you've gone through and your story 515 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,600 S1: and the way that you're saying you're putting this forward. 516 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,840 S1: That's the thing that they needed to hear. And so 517 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,040 S1: that's a that's a good thing that is coming out 518 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,280 S1: of the tragedy that that you've experienced that doesn't spike 519 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,920 S1: the tragedy. Tragedy though that doesn't mean that you don't grieve. 520 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,080 S1: That doesn't mean that you don't lament. That doesn't mean 521 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:56,959 S1: that you don't wish your mom had been out of 522 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,320 S1: that house. You know, when the fire happened. But what 523 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,120 S1: it does mean is that your trust. Well, I'm going 524 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,840 S1: to let Ray. Your trust is not in your ability 525 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,840 S1: to figure it out. Ray, your trust is in the 526 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:14,040 S1: God who has is making all things work together, right? 527 00:33:14,980 --> 00:33:18,300 S2: In the middle of all of this. Of what Cindy 528 00:33:18,340 --> 00:33:23,100 S2: has said, you could ask questions. How could dying in 529 00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:26,340 S2: a house fire? How could that possibly be good? But 530 00:33:26,340 --> 00:33:28,260 S2: you can hear it, Cindy. I can hear it in 531 00:33:28,260 --> 00:33:34,740 S2: your voice. God has opened doors that have given you 532 00:33:34,740 --> 00:33:38,740 S2: a platform to share about the mercy and grace and 533 00:33:38,740 --> 00:33:42,380 S2: goodness of God. He's given you a platform. He's opened 534 00:33:42,380 --> 00:33:46,300 S2: doors that you never would have had before. And you 535 00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:49,060 S2: said it so well. You miss your mom, you grieve 536 00:33:49,060 --> 00:33:51,460 S2: for her. It's going to be that way until you 537 00:33:51,460 --> 00:33:54,340 S2: see her one day in heaven. And yet you can 538 00:33:54,340 --> 00:33:58,140 S2: see what God has done. Your friends either read my 539 00:33:58,140 --> 00:34:01,140 S2: booklet or just listen to what Cindy said, because really, 540 00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:03,540 S2: that's what my booklets all about. 541 00:34:03,820 --> 00:34:06,740 S1: Amen. I'm all for that. Cindy, thanks for your call. 542 00:34:06,740 --> 00:34:08,580 S1: Let me go to Matt in Ohio. I want to 543 00:34:08,580 --> 00:34:10,540 S1: hear what's on your heart. Matt. Go ahead. 544 00:34:11,660 --> 00:34:15,810 S5: Oh, hi. I, I, um, I think I think it 545 00:34:15,810 --> 00:34:18,410 S5: can be tough. Um, it can be a tough pill 546 00:34:18,450 --> 00:34:22,009 S5: to swallow to hear, um, especially if you have things like, 547 00:34:22,050 --> 00:34:25,890 S5: you know, a disability or you grew up with, you know, 548 00:34:25,930 --> 00:34:31,290 S5: abusive family. Um, if, if over time, you know, you 549 00:34:31,290 --> 00:34:36,330 S5: see things, um, I think it, you know, it lessens 550 00:34:36,330 --> 00:34:40,650 S5: the blow. But if you've gone, you know, 40, 40 551 00:34:40,690 --> 00:34:44,810 S5: some years of your life and you're not really seeing, uh, 552 00:34:44,930 --> 00:34:49,009 S5: anything come out of it. Um, not to say that 553 00:34:49,010 --> 00:34:52,529 S5: there isn't something, but it just it just can wear 554 00:34:52,530 --> 00:34:56,410 S5: you down. It can, uh, it can just beat you down, and, 555 00:34:56,450 --> 00:34:59,210 S5: you know, you're trying to stay with it. You're trying to, 556 00:34:59,250 --> 00:35:03,250 S5: you know, keep the faith and everything. But, um, I 557 00:35:03,250 --> 00:35:05,530 S5: think it can just wear you down if you don't. 558 00:35:05,570 --> 00:35:09,250 S5: If you don't see it, uh, you know, coming, coming 559 00:35:09,250 --> 00:35:11,290 S5: around in your life at all. 560 00:35:11,630 --> 00:35:15,390 S1: Has that happened to you? Matt, I sense that it's 561 00:35:15,390 --> 00:35:18,310 S1: like one thing after another. After. When am I going 562 00:35:18,350 --> 00:35:20,750 S1: to see a win here? When? When is when are 563 00:35:20,750 --> 00:35:23,069 S1: things going to turn around? Aren't they supposed to turn 564 00:35:23,070 --> 00:35:25,630 S1: around and and you're in the middle of that kind 565 00:35:25,630 --> 00:35:27,029 S1: of a season? 566 00:35:28,070 --> 00:35:31,189 S5: Yeah. Yeah. Like throughout my life, you know, I was 567 00:35:31,190 --> 00:35:35,910 S5: born with, uh, certain condition. And, um, you know, I've 568 00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:40,589 S5: always tried. I tried getting into different things, different jobs, schooling, this, 569 00:35:40,590 --> 00:35:44,029 S5: that and the other. And, uh, it just never seemed 570 00:35:44,070 --> 00:35:49,549 S5: like things just never really seemed to open up. Um, now, 571 00:35:49,550 --> 00:35:52,830 S5: I think, you know, maybe, uh, maybe things are, um, 572 00:35:53,469 --> 00:35:56,230 S5: you know, come together for the greater. The greater good. 573 00:35:56,590 --> 00:35:59,910 S5: Maybe I, you know, crossed into somebody's path and said 574 00:35:59,910 --> 00:36:02,750 S5: the right thing at the right time. I don't, you know, 575 00:36:02,950 --> 00:36:06,710 S5: doubt stuff like that. But I think when a person doesn't, 576 00:36:06,750 --> 00:36:10,530 S5: doesn't see even a little bit over time, it can just. 577 00:36:10,570 --> 00:36:12,890 S5: It can just wear you down kind of thing. 578 00:36:13,290 --> 00:36:14,250 S1: Ray, what do you say? 579 00:36:15,610 --> 00:36:19,090 S2: First of all, Matt, thank you for calling because you 580 00:36:19,090 --> 00:36:24,529 S2: speak bottom line truth here. There are times when we 581 00:36:24,570 --> 00:36:27,530 S2: can see when we can. It's kind of like the 582 00:36:27,530 --> 00:36:30,210 S2: phone call with Cindy just a moment ago. She can 583 00:36:30,210 --> 00:36:34,250 S2: see boom, boom, boom. There are other times in life, 584 00:36:34,250 --> 00:36:38,850 S2: and your story is a perfect illustration where we simply 585 00:36:38,850 --> 00:36:43,650 S2: don't see it. We don't see. We don't understand parts 586 00:36:43,650 --> 00:36:47,129 S2: of life that make no sense. And I suppose we 587 00:36:47,130 --> 00:36:51,130 S2: are left at the end of this with, um. Well, 588 00:36:51,210 --> 00:36:56,689 S2: I read about a pastor who was teaching how to 589 00:36:56,690 --> 00:37:00,770 S2: deal with suffering and hardship in the Christian life, and 590 00:37:00,810 --> 00:37:04,009 S2: he basically gave the kind of explanation we're giving here 591 00:37:04,010 --> 00:37:07,129 S2: about Romans 828. And one man stood up and said, 592 00:37:07,130 --> 00:37:11,880 S2: I simply cannot believe in the sovereignty of God over 593 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,560 S2: all the details of life and went on and on. 594 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:20,320 S2: And the pastor said back to him calmly, what alternative 595 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,759 S2: do you propose? If there is not a God who 596 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:30,200 S2: is intimately concerned and caring for us? The alternative is 597 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,439 S2: absolute chaos and no meaning at all. So man, I'm 598 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,000 S2: happy to say I'm glad you're holding on to your faith. 599 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,800 S2: I'm glad you can see maybe a few glimmers here 600 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,160 S2: or there. And I think it's not wrong to pray. Lord, 601 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,720 S2: I'd like to make more sense out of my life. 602 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,280 S2: I don't see it right now. Lord, open my eyes. 603 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,600 S2: Show me what I need to see. And give me 604 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,960 S2: faith to believe while I'm waiting for your answers. 605 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,160 S1: And you know where I see that most often? What 606 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,719 S1: Matt is talking about. Where it it kind of gets 607 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:09,660 S1: in and then metastasizes is isolation when you don't have friends, 608 00:38:09,660 --> 00:38:13,259 S1: when you don't have folks around you in church who 609 00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:16,420 S1: know you well, who can see you, who can speak 610 00:38:16,460 --> 00:38:19,339 S1: truth into your life and encouragement into your life when 611 00:38:19,340 --> 00:38:23,860 S1: you have those kinds of people around you, then even 612 00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:27,339 S1: even when the the things that go wrong happen, you're 613 00:38:27,340 --> 00:38:30,459 S1: able to share that load with other people. I think 614 00:38:30,460 --> 00:38:34,940 S1: the enemy loves to keep us in isolation and and 615 00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:38,020 S1: to keep us from that kind of encouragement. Don't you? 616 00:38:39,100 --> 00:38:42,940 S2: Look, there's no question that the devil's. Well, I don't 617 00:38:42,940 --> 00:38:45,060 S2: want to say number one tool. He's got a lot 618 00:38:45,060 --> 00:38:48,700 S2: of tools, but one of his best tools is to 619 00:38:48,739 --> 00:38:51,899 S2: get me isolated, get me away from my wife, get 620 00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:54,899 S2: me away from my kids, get me away from my grandkids. 621 00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:57,700 S2: To get me away from the local church, from the 622 00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:01,300 S2: fellowship of my small group, to get me off by myself. 623 00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:05,020 S2: Because you know what, uh, when you get off by yourself, 624 00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:09,650 S2: it's so easy to for your thinking to get warped. Uh, 625 00:39:09,810 --> 00:39:12,649 S2: I need some friends who can come up and not 626 00:39:12,650 --> 00:39:15,370 S2: just give me a hug and say, Ray, it's good 627 00:39:15,370 --> 00:39:20,489 S2: to see you, but sometimes say, Ray, you're way off here, buddy. 628 00:39:20,530 --> 00:39:23,930 S2: Way off. And just a good friend who can say 629 00:39:23,930 --> 00:39:26,770 S2: that Chris can make all the difference in the world. 630 00:39:27,170 --> 00:39:29,689 S1: And I want to tell you, Matt, that you you. 631 00:39:29,930 --> 00:39:32,450 S1: Ray said you speak for a lot of people. You 632 00:39:32,450 --> 00:39:35,850 S1: have spoken some encouragement into somebody else's life who's been 633 00:39:35,850 --> 00:39:40,130 S1: feeling that and, uh, your experience is going to help them. 634 00:39:40,130 --> 00:39:43,250 S1: So thank you for being faithful to that pain and 635 00:39:43,370 --> 00:39:47,169 S1: your inability to understand what in the world God is 636 00:39:47,170 --> 00:39:50,930 S1: doing in your life for. Sounds like for quite a 637 00:39:50,930 --> 00:39:54,009 S1: long time, you've done something good here today with the 638 00:39:54,010 --> 00:39:56,930 S1: pain that you've shared. This is Chris Fabry live on 639 00:39:56,969 --> 00:40:02,850 S1: Moody Radio online. Chris Fabry lives more with Ray straight ahead. 640 00:40:12,910 --> 00:40:17,310 S1: Our remaining moments with doctor Ray Pritchard about Romans 828. 641 00:40:17,310 --> 00:40:20,910 S1: Can we still believe in Romans 828 is a little 642 00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:22,910 S1: booklet that Ray came up with. I have it in 643 00:40:22,910 --> 00:40:26,470 S1: front of me on my computer. It's only 14 pages long, 644 00:40:26,469 --> 00:40:29,910 S1: but it's really, really good if you want a printed 645 00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:32,910 S1: version of it. They make that available as well from 646 00:40:32,910 --> 00:40:36,750 S1: Keep Believing Ministries. And there's a you got to read 647 00:40:36,750 --> 00:40:41,509 S1: the letter in here from a man who was incarcerated 648 00:40:41,510 --> 00:40:45,710 S1: and who wrote Ray, I won't go into that, but 649 00:40:45,750 --> 00:40:49,950 S1: it's it references the little book that he wrote, An 650 00:40:49,950 --> 00:40:52,430 S1: anchor for the soul that we've given away here on 651 00:40:52,430 --> 00:40:56,630 S1: Chris Fabry live. But he read that a prisoner read 652 00:40:56,630 --> 00:40:59,750 S1: that book and had to write Ray about it. You 653 00:40:59,790 --> 00:41:01,830 S1: got to get the booklet just to read that. I 654 00:41:01,830 --> 00:41:06,860 S1: think it'll encourage you. But the last question that you ask, 655 00:41:06,860 --> 00:41:10,340 S1: or the last section of this is where was God 656 00:41:10,340 --> 00:41:13,580 S1: when my son died? Take me into that, Ray. 657 00:41:14,820 --> 00:41:19,700 S2: There was a father whose son was killed in a terrible, 658 00:41:19,739 --> 00:41:25,540 S2: tragic accident, and he came to his pastor and in 659 00:41:25,540 --> 00:41:32,259 S2: great anger said, where was God when my son died? 660 00:41:32,660 --> 00:41:36,140 S2: And I pause here to say, Chris, that's a perfectly 661 00:41:36,340 --> 00:41:41,700 S2: normal question. That's exactly the question any father would ask. 662 00:41:41,700 --> 00:41:46,260 S2: Where was God when my son died? And the pastor 663 00:41:46,260 --> 00:41:49,860 S2: thought for a moment, and then he replied the same 664 00:41:49,860 --> 00:41:54,739 S2: place he was when his son died. That's the final 665 00:41:54,739 --> 00:41:59,219 S2: piece of the puzzle. God knows what we are going through, 666 00:41:59,460 --> 00:42:04,719 S2: for he too has been there. He watched his own 667 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,760 S2: son die. I've been preaching lately. Uh, at a local 668 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,640 S2: church here in Florida on the seven last words of Christ. 669 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,720 S2: And I've done the first two so far. The father 670 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,319 S2: forgive them. And, uh, uh, today you'll be with me 671 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:25,240 S2: in Paradise. And I've been struck again how dark that 672 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:31,799 S2: day was, how horrific that day was, how we call 673 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,120 S2: it Good Friday, Chris. But it didn't look like if we. 674 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,360 S2: If you and I had been there, if we'd been there, 675 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,320 S2: we said, what is going on here? There's nothing good 676 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:47,279 S2: about this. The torture, the howling mob, all of it. 677 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,520 S2: The awful way for the Son of God to die. 678 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,840 S2: And yet God intended out of the death of his 679 00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,780 S2: own son something that honestly looks like. Well, it's murder. 680 00:43:01,780 --> 00:43:05,259 S2: They murdered the Son of God. And yet the father 681 00:43:05,260 --> 00:43:09,620 S2: intended before the world was formed, before the foundation of 682 00:43:09,620 --> 00:43:12,860 S2: the world, they, through the death of his son, horrific 683 00:43:13,100 --> 00:43:18,300 S2: death of his son to provide salvation for anyone, anywhere 684 00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:21,340 S2: who would believe in him. And I think, Chris, that's 685 00:43:21,340 --> 00:43:27,460 S2: a hugely important point. Paul, how can you say we know? 686 00:43:28,180 --> 00:43:35,420 S2: Paul would answer back because Jesus, God's son, died on 687 00:43:35,420 --> 00:43:40,180 S2: the cross. Now we see what God intended. When man 688 00:43:40,219 --> 00:43:43,779 S2: did his worst, God did his best. And I think 689 00:43:43,780 --> 00:43:47,339 S2: on that basis, Paul could say, we know. And if 690 00:43:47,340 --> 00:43:51,140 S2: we believe what the Bible says on that same basis, Chris, 691 00:43:51,180 --> 00:43:54,300 S2: you and I can say there's a lot we don't understand, 692 00:43:54,300 --> 00:43:57,980 S2: but we know we know what we don't understand that 693 00:43:57,980 --> 00:44:00,489 S2: God is at work in the worse things that happen 694 00:44:00,489 --> 00:44:03,730 S2: for our good and for his glory, he is making 695 00:44:03,730 --> 00:44:09,090 S2: us like Jesus Christ. And in the end, isn't that 696 00:44:09,130 --> 00:44:11,690 S2: what the Christian life is all about? To become more 697 00:44:11,850 --> 00:44:13,330 S2: like Jesus? 698 00:44:13,890 --> 00:44:16,090 S1: We're almost at the end here. Let me read our 699 00:44:16,090 --> 00:44:20,770 S1: last caller's question about, um. She says a lot of 700 00:44:20,770 --> 00:44:24,689 S1: Christians are asking, why does God let this happen? She 701 00:44:24,690 --> 00:44:28,010 S1: is wondering why we as Christians never ask why Satan 702 00:44:28,010 --> 00:44:32,410 S1: makes these things happen to us. God is good. He 703 00:44:32,410 --> 00:44:35,290 S1: doesn't cause bad things to happen to us. What do 704 00:44:35,290 --> 00:44:36,050 S1: you say to that? 705 00:44:36,770 --> 00:44:39,770 S2: Uh. Real quick. I love the way Tony Evans puts 706 00:44:39,770 --> 00:44:43,250 S2: it that everything in the universe is either caused by 707 00:44:43,250 --> 00:44:46,969 S2: God or allowed by God, and there is no third category, 708 00:44:46,969 --> 00:44:49,850 S2: such as really bad stuff. That happens because God had 709 00:44:49,850 --> 00:44:51,890 S2: turned his face and was looking at another part of 710 00:44:51,890 --> 00:44:54,690 S2: the world. No, in the end, whatever the devil does, 711 00:44:54,810 --> 00:44:59,629 S2: he can only do by God's permission. It's not like 712 00:44:59,630 --> 00:45:02,590 S2: the devil can do something that God will not allow. 713 00:45:02,830 --> 00:45:06,070 S2: So that in the end, Chris is not the devil 714 00:45:06,070 --> 00:45:09,270 S2: with whom we have to do. It's God. We've got 715 00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:12,350 S2: to deal with. And on that basis, we can say 716 00:45:12,350 --> 00:45:16,910 S2: with Paul, for we know, we know with absolute certainty 717 00:45:17,070 --> 00:45:19,950 S2: that all things, not some things, not most things, all 718 00:45:19,950 --> 00:45:23,830 S2: things are working together for our good and God's glory. 719 00:45:24,070 --> 00:45:27,190 S2: And through the worst that happens, God is making us 720 00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:28,230 S2: like Jesus. 721 00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:32,390 S1: The perfect example of that is job. And every time 722 00:45:32,390 --> 00:45:36,350 S1: I read job and I see Satan and hear God saying, 723 00:45:36,350 --> 00:45:40,110 S1: have you considered my servant job? I want to say, no, don't. 724 00:45:40,110 --> 00:45:42,750 S1: Don't mention him this time. But he does. He brings 725 00:45:42,750 --> 00:45:47,190 S1: up job and he allows that to happen to job. 726 00:45:47,710 --> 00:45:50,549 S1: And look at the depth. That's the other thing. Look 727 00:45:50,550 --> 00:45:53,669 S1: at the depth of job's faith in God and who 728 00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:58,460 S1: God really is. By the end of that book, rather than, 729 00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:01,180 S1: you know, what he believed at the beginning. We'll leave 730 00:46:01,180 --> 00:46:03,540 S1: it right there. Ray, God bless you. Thank you, friend, 731 00:46:03,540 --> 00:46:05,339 S1: for joining us today. Appreciate it. 732 00:46:05,340 --> 00:46:07,380 S2: Thank you Chris, great to be with you today. 733 00:46:07,860 --> 00:46:10,660 S1: Can we still believe in Romans 828? Well, we've answered 734 00:46:10,660 --> 00:46:13,140 S1: that question a little bit. If you'd like to go deeper, 735 00:46:13,340 --> 00:46:15,740 S1: there's a booklet that Ray has put together from Keep 736 00:46:15,739 --> 00:46:19,860 S1: Believing Ministries. It's absolutely free. It's a download. You can 737 00:46:19,900 --> 00:46:24,219 S1: click the download right there at Chris Paul if you 738 00:46:24,260 --> 00:46:28,540 S1: would like printed copies of that. They make that available 739 00:46:28,540 --> 00:46:30,580 S1: as well so you can find out more about that. 740 00:46:30,580 --> 00:46:35,540 S1: Just go to Chris Fabry live. Tomorrow. Do you have 741 00:46:35,540 --> 00:46:37,819 S1: a book inside? Do you have something that you feel 742 00:46:37,820 --> 00:46:39,859 S1: like God wants you to get on the page and 743 00:46:39,860 --> 00:46:42,540 S1: you don't know how? Join us tomorrow right here on 744 00:46:42,540 --> 00:46:45,700 S1: Chris Fabry Live, a production of Moody Radio, a ministry 745 00:46:45,700 --> 00:46:47,580 S1: of Moody Bible Institute.