1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,360 S1: It's that time. Yes, friends. It's time for another visit 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,920 S1: to the radio backyard fence. Today it's our radio Bible 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,520 S1: fence because they are back. The boys of the Bible, 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,200 S1: the twin sons of different testaments. They put the chat 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,720 S1: and eschatology the odd. In podcast, I'm talking about the 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:24,560 S1: two Michaels Doctor Michael and his biblical compadre, Doctor Michael 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,880 S1: Van Landingham. And if you are new to this soiree, friend, 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,920 S1: come on in. We present it just about every month 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,560 S1: when the two Michaels show up. We talk about the Bible. 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,640 S1: We talk about it, what it means to live the 11 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:40,080 S1: Christian life, how to apply Scripture to rightly divide it. 12 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,320 S1: And if there is some kind of question, you have 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,560 S1: some kind of biblical conundrum you're having, or a Christian 14 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,519 S1: life question call early, call off, and we get some 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,559 S1: really good questions that come in at the end of 16 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,840 S1: the hour that we can't deal with. So call us 17 00:00:54,840 --> 00:01:06,600 S1: at 58775483675. The lines are open for your calls right now. 18 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,360 S1: Or ask a question on Facebook. Find all the links 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,119 S1: and resources at the website. Let me thank our team. 20 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,399 S1: Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. Tricia is our producer. 21 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,119 S1: Lisa is helping out. Josh will be answering your calls. 22 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,840 S1: Now here they are, general editors reporting for duty. They 23 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,600 S1: put the skip and disciple the new and hermeneutics and 24 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,440 S1: the Ant and Covenant. I'm talking about open lines. Doctor 25 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,120 S1: Michael Rudnick, who is also professor emeritus of Jewish studies 26 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,280 S1: at and Bible at the Moody Bible Institute, and his 27 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,120 S1: co-editor of the Moody Bible Commentary, former pastor of biblical 28 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,360 S1: research at Harvest Bible Chapel in Elgin, Illinois. Doctor Michael 29 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,480 S1: Vanlandingham friends. The two Michaels. 30 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,360 S2: Whoa! Hey! Wow. 31 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,640 S1: Look at him. Look at him there. Right here. 32 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,520 S3: Hey, Chris. Hey, Chris, I gotta say, yeah, we put 33 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,840 S3: the odd in podcasts. Come on, man. 34 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,010 S1: I think it's one of my favorites. Now I gotta 35 00:02:00,050 --> 00:02:03,050 S1: pull that one out. Uh, I like the skip and disciple, too. 36 00:02:03,090 --> 00:02:04,490 S4: I don't think we're both odd. 37 00:02:08,450 --> 00:02:11,610 S1: You two have been odd since I first met you. Yeah, 38 00:02:11,770 --> 00:02:14,410 S1: I mean that in the in the most generous and 39 00:02:14,410 --> 00:02:18,049 S1: friendly way. Uh, Harry, you know, Doctor Redlich is not 40 00:02:18,050 --> 00:02:22,049 S1: feeling well. He was feeling he had 103 degree temperature 41 00:02:22,610 --> 00:02:25,530 S1: just in the last couple of days. And he's still 42 00:02:25,530 --> 00:02:28,250 S1: doing the program. That is why I say your general 43 00:02:28,250 --> 00:02:29,890 S1: editor's reporting for duty. 44 00:02:30,290 --> 00:02:34,250 S4: Oh, well. Well, I'm fine, and 103 degrees is not 45 00:02:34,290 --> 00:02:36,649 S4: what I am now. Or I wouldn't be here, so 46 00:02:36,690 --> 00:02:37,970 S4: I'm fine, you know? 47 00:02:38,250 --> 00:02:40,650 S1: Yeah, but you almost went out and and used the 48 00:02:40,650 --> 00:02:42,090 S1: snow blower. Uh. 49 00:02:42,850 --> 00:02:44,490 S4: Yeah. My wife wouldn't let me. She said I need 50 00:02:44,490 --> 00:02:45,610 S4: another day of recovery. 51 00:02:47,250 --> 00:02:48,970 S1: What kind of snow blower do you have? Is it, 52 00:02:48,970 --> 00:02:50,369 S1: like one of those huge ones? 53 00:02:51,010 --> 00:02:53,930 S4: No, no, it's just I just have a driveway. You know, 54 00:02:53,970 --> 00:02:57,450 S4: it's just, uh, it's not that much to do. Uh, 55 00:02:57,650 --> 00:02:59,730 S4: if he'd asked me what brand it was, I couldn't 56 00:02:59,730 --> 00:03:00,410 S4: even tell you. 57 00:03:00,730 --> 00:03:04,169 S1: Okay. Yeah. Doctor Vanlandingham, do you have a snowblower? 58 00:03:05,490 --> 00:03:10,730 S3: Um, yes, it's called Mike Vanlandingham with a shovel. And. 59 00:03:10,889 --> 00:03:13,450 S3: And my wife, I mean, I have to say, my wife, Susie, 60 00:03:13,450 --> 00:03:17,169 S3: is is is is really committed to having snow off 61 00:03:17,169 --> 00:03:21,209 S3: of our driveway. And my philosophy is, listen, if God 62 00:03:21,210 --> 00:03:25,649 S3: put it there, God can take it away. That's my philosophy. So, um, 63 00:03:25,690 --> 00:03:28,250 S3: so but I've been I the spirit has worked on 64 00:03:28,250 --> 00:03:30,730 S3: my heart. I've been helping her more. And so, uh. 65 00:03:30,730 --> 00:03:32,370 S3: But yeah, we don't. I mean, we have a guy 66 00:03:32,410 --> 00:03:34,570 S3: plow it if it's if it gets more than about 67 00:03:34,570 --> 00:03:37,210 S3: 3 or 4in. But we've only had dustings recently, but 68 00:03:37,210 --> 00:03:39,410 S3: we still have to scrape it off, so I do 69 00:03:39,410 --> 00:03:40,050 S3: that myself. 70 00:03:40,530 --> 00:03:40,890 S1: Well, the. 71 00:03:40,890 --> 00:03:43,770 S4: Difference is, now that we live in Grand Rapids, it's 72 00:03:43,770 --> 00:03:47,050 S4: like snowing every day. I've never seen anything like this. 73 00:03:47,090 --> 00:03:49,610 S4: It's I don't want to say it's like Narnia under 74 00:03:49,610 --> 00:03:51,570 S4: the White Witch, but it feels like that, you know, 75 00:03:51,610 --> 00:03:54,809 S4: it's it's like living in a snow globe. It's crazy. 76 00:03:55,940 --> 00:03:59,620 S1: So I have to say, since doctor delegates here again, 77 00:03:59,940 --> 00:04:02,580 S1: this is your second time to be with me in 78 00:04:02,580 --> 00:04:05,980 S1: this month because we are giving away. How should Christians 79 00:04:05,980 --> 00:04:08,740 S1: think about Israel or right at the end of the month? 80 00:04:09,060 --> 00:04:11,860 S1: And we just had an anonymous gift come in through 81 00:04:11,860 --> 00:04:14,460 S1: the mail, whoever that was. Thank you, thank you, thank you. 82 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:17,140 S1: That pushed us over our money goal for this month. 83 00:04:17,140 --> 00:04:19,700 S1: So we made our money goal. But I really want 84 00:04:19,740 --> 00:04:21,779 S1: to put this book in your hands. How should Christians 85 00:04:21,779 --> 00:04:24,860 S1: think about Israel? A quick guide to God's covenants. They 86 00:04:24,860 --> 00:04:28,180 S1: put the ant in Covenant Biblical Prophecy and the Jewish 87 00:04:28,180 --> 00:04:31,420 S1: People by Doctor Rudnick. And you're getting some really good 88 00:04:31,420 --> 00:04:33,339 S1: response from this, Michael, aren't you? 89 00:04:33,740 --> 00:04:37,700 S4: Yes. It's overall just very positive selling well and Moody's 90 00:04:37,740 --> 00:04:41,260 S4: been using it and I'm grateful for the good response. 91 00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:44,020 S4: Of course, there are some people who haven't read it 92 00:04:44,020 --> 00:04:49,780 S4: that are showing their latent, inherent hatred of Jewish people 93 00:04:50,220 --> 00:04:54,140 S4: and they're commenting all over social media to that effect. 94 00:04:54,140 --> 00:04:56,700 S4: And it's sad for me because most of them are 95 00:04:56,700 --> 00:05:00,380 S4: misusing Bible verses to do it. So, uh, one of 96 00:05:00,380 --> 00:05:03,660 S4: the things that we're going to do about that is 97 00:05:03,660 --> 00:05:07,980 S4: have a special open line for our next recorded open line, 98 00:05:07,980 --> 00:05:11,219 S4: which is going to air in mid-February, and it's going 99 00:05:11,220 --> 00:05:16,060 S4: to be Mike Vanlandingham and Dave Finkbeiner and Kevin Zuber 100 00:05:16,060 --> 00:05:18,500 S4: and I. And we're going to go through those passages 101 00:05:18,500 --> 00:05:23,299 S4: that people misquote and, uh, and explain what they really mean. 102 00:05:23,580 --> 00:05:24,820 S4: It's going to be a great show. 103 00:05:25,140 --> 00:05:28,100 S1: When Doctor Rudnick was with us last time, Doctor Vanlandingham, 104 00:05:28,100 --> 00:05:31,260 S1: he told me about the the letter that you sent. 105 00:05:31,300 --> 00:05:33,539 S1: You know what you wrote. And he said. And he 106 00:05:33,540 --> 00:05:36,500 S1: put that into the book. Uh, and you were just 107 00:05:36,540 --> 00:05:38,500 S1: speaking from your heart. Do you remember that? 108 00:05:39,339 --> 00:05:43,460 S3: Oh, yeah. Um, I mean, just to summarize, I think 109 00:05:43,460 --> 00:05:46,540 S3: the Abrahamic covenant is still in place, that that if 110 00:05:46,580 --> 00:05:50,540 S3: you bless Israel, um, the offspring of Abraham, then God 111 00:05:50,540 --> 00:05:52,539 S3: will bless you. And if you curse Israel, God will 112 00:05:52,620 --> 00:05:55,540 S3: curse you. And I've seen that in my own life, 113 00:05:55,540 --> 00:05:58,380 S3: just in terms of wanting to take people to Israel 114 00:05:58,380 --> 00:06:01,940 S3: and working with my Jewish colleagues. And I wrote a 115 00:06:01,940 --> 00:06:05,180 S3: dissertation on the fact that it's Jesus who is going 116 00:06:05,180 --> 00:06:08,140 S3: to save the Jewish people and not and not just 117 00:06:08,140 --> 00:06:13,059 S3: God apart from Jesus or something like that. And so, um, yeah, 118 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:14,700 S3: I mean, that's that's what I talked about, that we 119 00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:20,820 S3: really ought to be, um, respecting, um, harboring, encouraging the 120 00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:23,700 S3: Jewish people. And I think, uh, doing our best to 121 00:06:23,740 --> 00:06:25,300 S3: suppress anti-Semitism. 122 00:06:26,140 --> 00:06:26,779 S1: So if you go to. 123 00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:35,580 S4: Relive the time, it was the kindest, most gracious, uh, friendly, loving, uh, 124 00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:38,620 S4: little page or two of writing. And I thought, this 125 00:06:38,620 --> 00:06:40,180 S4: is so good. I'm putting it at the end of 126 00:06:40,180 --> 00:06:43,940 S4: the book to conclude it. And, yeah, I just, uh, 127 00:06:44,140 --> 00:06:47,060 S4: I love it because it just showed my Mike V's heart. 128 00:06:47,540 --> 00:06:49,940 S1: Bingo. Well, you can get that. You can get a 129 00:06:49,940 --> 00:06:52,589 S1: copy of that or give a gift of any size 130 00:06:52,630 --> 00:06:55,909 S1: at all. Scroll down. You'll see it. How should Christians 131 00:06:55,910 --> 00:07:01,950 S1: think about Israel? Chris Fabry live or 86695 give a 132 00:07:01,950 --> 00:07:04,230 S1: gift of any size before the end of the month. 133 00:07:04,230 --> 00:07:07,710 S1: So it's only two days after today. Uh, but thank 134 00:07:07,710 --> 00:07:09,590 S1: you for your support. You help us do what we 135 00:07:09,590 --> 00:07:13,790 S1: do here at the back fence. 866953 or Chris Fabry live. 136 00:07:14,950 --> 00:07:18,590 S1: Now here is your opportunity. Don't miss this opportunity to 137 00:07:18,630 --> 00:07:22,470 S1: talk with the two Michaels. First up is Nancy in Iowa. 138 00:07:22,470 --> 00:07:23,670 S1: Nancy go right ahead. 139 00:07:24,910 --> 00:07:31,270 S5: Hi. My question is about, um, shepherding and discipling. What 140 00:07:31,270 --> 00:07:33,030 S5: does that actually look like? 141 00:07:34,910 --> 00:07:39,510 S1: What does shepherding and discipling actually look like? You mean from, uh, 142 00:07:39,510 --> 00:07:42,070 S1: New Testament perspective? Nancy. 143 00:07:42,110 --> 00:07:42,550 S5: Yes. 144 00:07:43,070 --> 00:07:45,550 S1: And why are you let me ask you one more question. 145 00:07:45,790 --> 00:07:48,510 S1: Why are you answering? Asking that? Because. Have you seen 146 00:07:48,510 --> 00:07:50,870 S1: it not be done well. 147 00:07:52,670 --> 00:07:56,670 S5: No, it's just that I had a talk with my 148 00:07:56,670 --> 00:08:03,830 S5: pastor the other day, and, um, he used a word 149 00:08:03,870 --> 00:08:08,590 S5: submissive and something else. I can't remember what right off hand. 150 00:08:08,630 --> 00:08:11,270 S5: And and I'm wondering if I have it all wrong. 151 00:08:12,350 --> 00:08:13,590 S6: Okay. All right. 152 00:08:14,390 --> 00:08:19,870 S3: Well, um, I, I don't know what it all is, um, 153 00:08:19,870 --> 00:08:21,630 S3: in terms of what you're referring to as far as 154 00:08:21,630 --> 00:08:26,670 S3: shepherding is concerned, you know, um, what shepherding could also 155 00:08:26,670 --> 00:08:30,870 S3: be translated or understood as pastoring. And I think the 156 00:08:30,870 --> 00:08:33,630 S3: idea of a pastor or a shepherd of a local 157 00:08:33,630 --> 00:08:40,110 S3: congregation is that we are to oversee the flock. And 158 00:08:40,190 --> 00:08:43,150 S3: at least in acts chapter 20, verse 28, Paul says 159 00:08:43,150 --> 00:08:46,189 S3: to the Ephesian elders, be on guard for yourselves and 160 00:08:46,190 --> 00:08:48,800 S3: for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has 161 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,920 S3: made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which 162 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,079 S3: he purchased with his own blood. And then he says 163 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,679 S3: in the next verse. I know that after my departure, 164 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,120 S3: savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 165 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,240 S3: And so at least part of being a pastor or 166 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,559 S3: shepherd means to care for the sheep. And I think 167 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,360 S3: that means keeping them together. It means providing food for them. 168 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,680 S3: And we would teach them from the Bible. That's their 169 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,200 S3: spiritual food. Um, now, the discipleship thing, I'll let Michael 170 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,560 S3: comment about that. There's much more to be said about 171 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,640 S3: shepherding aspect. I think the sheep should, for the most part, 172 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:27,280 S3: submit to their shepherds. The two we ought to be submitting. Um, 173 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,800 S3: Hebrews 13 says that. But but that's not an absolute. 174 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,040 S3: Absolute submission. If they're doing sinful things or if they're 175 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,719 S3: being hideously incompetent, then I think we have to resist. 176 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:41,640 S3: But we do it in a in a good and 177 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:42,360 S3: godly way. 178 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,679 S4: Yeah, I want to I think that Pastoral care or 179 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,000 S4: shepherding involves protecting the flock, according to that passage. So 180 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,640 S4: being on guard for letting false teachers come in. Uh, 181 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:01,520 S4: I think that that's really important. Um, I remember leading 182 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,880 S4: in a congregation once. I was getting ready to preach, 183 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,240 S4: and a woman came up to me and said, one 184 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,319 S4: of your teachers, because the kids had classes, right? When 185 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,199 S4: I was preaching, one of your teachers said last week 186 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:19,160 S4: that all of the New Testament isn't inspired, that you 187 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,600 S4: have to read the Pauline epistles and determine which of 188 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,199 S4: it is inspired or not. 189 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:24,160 S6: Oh. 190 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:29,600 S4: And and I said, oh, uh, and I looked at 191 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,160 S4: I didn't know what to do because I was about 192 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,840 S4: to teach. And so I said to Eva, would you 193 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,439 S4: go look into this? And Eva went and talked to 194 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,079 S4: that teacher and she said, right, right. And she was 195 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,640 S4: so excited to explain her view of how to understand 196 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,130 S4: what is inspired and what isn't. And Eva said, you know, 197 00:10:47,170 --> 00:10:50,770 S4: I think you really need to be learning now and 198 00:10:50,770 --> 00:10:54,410 S4: not teaching. I'll just take your class. You go to 199 00:10:54,450 --> 00:10:59,250 S4: the the main area, the auditorium and listen now. And 200 00:10:59,250 --> 00:11:01,569 S4: that's how Eva and I thought that was a great 201 00:11:01,570 --> 00:11:08,170 S4: example of, uh, shepherding of, of, uh, how would I 202 00:11:08,170 --> 00:11:15,050 S4: put it, of correcting and protecting the flock. Uh, and, 203 00:11:15,690 --> 00:11:18,450 S4: and so I think that that's obviously one of the 204 00:11:18,450 --> 00:11:23,650 S4: roles of someone, uh, in a pastoral office, but, uh, 205 00:11:23,650 --> 00:11:26,490 S4: Eva handled it just as she ought to have as 206 00:11:26,490 --> 00:11:30,050 S4: a more mature believer, uh, in, in, in doing what 207 00:11:30,090 --> 00:11:33,210 S4: a pastor is supposed to do. So I think there's 208 00:11:33,210 --> 00:11:35,810 S4: elements of that. She did it in a loving way. Uh, 209 00:11:35,850 --> 00:11:38,929 S4: and and yet then we then, of course, afterwards, there 210 00:11:38,929 --> 00:11:41,809 S4: was a lot more conversation with this woman who was 211 00:11:41,809 --> 00:11:46,770 S4: so confused. But anyway, the point of that is there's 212 00:11:46,770 --> 00:11:49,930 S4: a lot more to pastoring than just, you know, holding 213 00:11:49,929 --> 00:11:52,689 S4: someone's hand when they're going through a tough time. Uh, 214 00:11:53,330 --> 00:11:57,290 S4: I think of of discipling what Paul talks about in 215 00:11:57,290 --> 00:12:00,170 S4: Trust to Timothy. Timothy, the things you've seen and heard 216 00:12:00,170 --> 00:12:05,370 S4: in me, these things, uh, entrust to faithful men that 217 00:12:05,370 --> 00:12:09,650 S4: they might teach others also. Second Timothy two two, uh, 218 00:12:09,650 --> 00:12:14,010 S4: I think of, uh, and as for submission, I do 219 00:12:14,010 --> 00:12:15,890 S4: think that submission. 220 00:12:15,890 --> 00:12:18,410 S1: Submission after the break. Michael, can we do that after 221 00:12:18,410 --> 00:12:21,890 S1: the break and go to our, uh, music? Which means 222 00:12:21,890 --> 00:12:25,250 S1: you have an opportunity. Nancy. Great question. We'll finish that 223 00:12:25,490 --> 00:12:28,970 S1: answer afterward, but you have the opportunity now to talk 224 00:12:28,970 --> 00:12:39,890 S1: with the two Michaels. Who wouldn't want to do that? 87754836758775483675. 225 00:12:39,929 --> 00:12:51,970 S1: More straight ahead. The two Michaels are with us at 226 00:12:51,970 --> 00:12:54,210 S1: the radio backyard fence. Go to the website. Click through 227 00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:57,290 S1: today's information. You'll see how you can receive a copy 228 00:12:57,290 --> 00:13:01,089 S1: of Doctor Rudnick's. How should Christians think about Israel? You'll 229 00:13:01,090 --> 00:13:04,370 S1: also see the Moody Bible Commentary. They are the general 230 00:13:04,370 --> 00:13:07,730 S1: editors of the Moody Bible Commentary. And it's really interesting. 231 00:13:07,730 --> 00:13:10,330 S1: We've got this video screen that I'm seeing, and there 232 00:13:10,330 --> 00:13:13,210 S1: was a question I asked before the program, and both 233 00:13:13,210 --> 00:13:15,890 S1: of them got out their moody Bible commentaries. It was 234 00:13:15,890 --> 00:13:19,010 S1: so much fun. They were going through it. So if 235 00:13:19,010 --> 00:13:24,929 S1: you have a question, comment (877) 548-3675. Especially if you disagree 236 00:13:24,929 --> 00:13:27,610 S1: with them and you want to yell at them. I mean, 237 00:13:27,650 --> 00:13:29,809 S1: that's what we just love here because we like to 238 00:13:29,850 --> 00:13:33,130 S1: stir up conflict. Uh, but Nancy had a really good 239 00:13:33,130 --> 00:13:35,770 S1: question about this shepherding, and it sounds like part of 240 00:13:35,850 --> 00:13:39,290 S1: that came from she heard something from her pastor and 241 00:13:39,290 --> 00:13:43,780 S1: she wanted to, you know, find out your opinion. So continue. Michael. 242 00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:47,580 S4: As for obeying or submitting to your leaders, it says 243 00:13:47,580 --> 00:13:51,740 S4: in Hebrews 1317, obey your leaders and submit to them. 244 00:13:51,740 --> 00:13:54,980 S4: I think submit really has the concept of deference. Show 245 00:13:54,980 --> 00:14:01,059 S4: them deference. And, uh, for they keep watch over your 246 00:14:01,059 --> 00:14:04,660 S4: souls as those who will give an account. Uh, so 247 00:14:04,660 --> 00:14:07,540 S4: that they can do this with joy and not with grief, 248 00:14:07,740 --> 00:14:12,060 S4: for that would be unprofitable for you. So the idea 249 00:14:12,059 --> 00:14:17,340 S4: there is to allow leaders to lead. That's the key. 250 00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:20,460 S4: But I would say the one thing there's a caveat. 251 00:14:21,020 --> 00:14:23,140 S4: And that's found in first Peter five, where it talks 252 00:14:23,140 --> 00:14:27,220 S4: about shepherding the flock of God among you. Uh, and 253 00:14:27,220 --> 00:14:31,620 S4: then it says, uh, this is first Peter five two, uh, 254 00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:37,220 S4: not overseeing out of compulsion, but freely according to God's will. 255 00:14:37,260 --> 00:14:41,380 S4: I think even elders shepherds have to lead according to 256 00:14:41,420 --> 00:14:44,980 S4: God's will. And if there's something that is clearly not 257 00:14:44,980 --> 00:14:47,860 S4: the will of God, like if they start telling you 258 00:14:47,860 --> 00:14:52,460 S4: who you can marry and who you like specifically marry 259 00:14:52,460 --> 00:14:54,940 S4: this person, or don't marry that person, or this is 260 00:14:54,940 --> 00:14:56,940 S4: what you need to do with your finances. And this 261 00:14:56,940 --> 00:15:00,260 S4: is where you need to give and, and uh, and 262 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:05,340 S4: sort of becoming intrusive, uh, in personal areas of our lives, 263 00:15:05,340 --> 00:15:08,780 S4: not about Scripture, but about control. That's not according to 264 00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:12,580 S4: God's will. And that that that is something that ought 265 00:15:12,580 --> 00:15:15,500 S4: to be said. No, I don't have to do that. 266 00:15:15,540 --> 00:15:18,460 S1: That takes some discernment, Doctor Van Landingham, to be able 267 00:15:18,460 --> 00:15:20,340 S1: to to segment that. 268 00:15:20,980 --> 00:15:23,340 S3: It does. Okay. I got to tell you a little story. 269 00:15:23,340 --> 00:15:25,660 S3: I'll do it real quick. When I was real new 270 00:15:25,660 --> 00:15:28,060 S3: at Moody, I got a letter handed to me from 271 00:15:28,060 --> 00:15:30,740 S3: our department chair, Bill Marty, and he said, respond to 272 00:15:30,740 --> 00:15:32,660 S3: these people, okay. It was a letter from a woman. 273 00:15:33,180 --> 00:15:35,180 S3: She said that she and her husband were going to 274 00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:39,030 S3: go for their 25th wedding anniversary to the Bahamas. And 275 00:15:39,030 --> 00:15:42,510 S3: it was February, and the pastor quoted a passage from 276 00:15:42,510 --> 00:15:48,150 S3: Matthew 15. Pray that your flight be not in winter. Okay. 277 00:15:48,190 --> 00:15:50,070 S3: And so he said, you guys can't go. You can't 278 00:15:50,070 --> 00:15:52,550 S3: go because you'd be flying during the winter. You're supposed 279 00:15:52,550 --> 00:15:54,830 S3: to go. Wow. And so I wrote her back and 280 00:15:54,830 --> 00:15:57,030 S3: I said, that's not what the verse means. Jesus wasn't 281 00:15:57,030 --> 00:16:00,630 S3: thinking of 747 when he wrote that. Um, and I 282 00:16:00,630 --> 00:16:02,870 S3: explained what it was about. And I said, you go 283 00:16:03,070 --> 00:16:05,190 S3: have a wonderful time. And when you get home, find 284 00:16:05,190 --> 00:16:08,150 S3: a new church home. That's what I told him. I 285 00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:10,310 S3: thought that was just insane for the pastor to say 286 00:16:10,310 --> 00:16:11,430 S3: that that was so wrong. 287 00:16:11,910 --> 00:16:14,510 S1: Which goes back to the lording it over like you 288 00:16:14,510 --> 00:16:18,270 S1: were talking about Doctor Rudnick using some part of Scripture, 289 00:16:18,270 --> 00:16:22,030 S1: or just your authority to say, uh, put the thumb down. 290 00:16:22,030 --> 00:16:23,630 S1: You got to do this if you're going to go 291 00:16:23,630 --> 00:16:24,510 S1: to this church. 292 00:16:25,590 --> 00:16:29,630 S4: Yeah. Yeah. And that's specifically what Peter goes on in 293 00:16:29,670 --> 00:16:32,270 S4: first Peter five to say not to do, uh, not 294 00:16:32,270 --> 00:16:36,070 S4: to lord it over people, but to serve them. And when, 295 00:16:36,070 --> 00:16:40,470 S4: when people start lording it over. And sometimes there have 296 00:16:40,470 --> 00:16:43,670 S4: been churches where people, pastors have tried to tell people 297 00:16:43,710 --> 00:16:47,950 S4: how much they're supposed to give, what percentage of their salary, 298 00:16:47,950 --> 00:16:51,150 S4: and they want to see receipts and pay stubs and 299 00:16:51,150 --> 00:16:56,670 S4: things like that. That's. No. That's wrong. Uh, and and 300 00:16:57,190 --> 00:17:01,550 S4: I always tell people. Get out of. 301 00:17:01,590 --> 00:17:01,870 S1: There. 302 00:17:02,430 --> 00:17:02,830 S6: Yeah. 303 00:17:03,630 --> 00:17:05,830 S1: Let your flight not be in winter. But if it 304 00:17:05,830 --> 00:17:06,750 S1: has to be, go ahead. 305 00:17:06,790 --> 00:17:07,550 S6: Yeah. Really? 306 00:17:07,590 --> 00:17:11,109 S4: It's not lording it over those entrusted to you, but 307 00:17:11,109 --> 00:17:12,990 S4: being examples to the flock. 308 00:17:13,310 --> 00:17:15,830 S1: Yeah. Nancy, I hope that helps. I hope that you're 309 00:17:15,830 --> 00:17:19,190 S1: encouraged today by the the conversation with the two Michaels. 310 00:17:19,190 --> 00:17:22,229 S1: Linda is in Florida. Linda, your question for the two 311 00:17:22,270 --> 00:17:23,110 S1: Michaels today? 312 00:17:24,550 --> 00:17:27,429 S7: Hi. Um, I am a new kitchen table partner. I 313 00:17:27,430 --> 00:17:28,990 S7: just wanted to tell you that. And I love the 314 00:17:28,990 --> 00:17:29,870 S7: mug you sent. 315 00:17:30,470 --> 00:17:32,070 S4: Oh. Thank you. I got one right here. 316 00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:33,109 S6: Wait a minute. 317 00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:35,870 S1: Hang on. So you're coming on my program, and you're 318 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:42,280 S1: having your people call in about your mug. Michael. Come on. Linda. Okay. Well, Linda, 319 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:43,640 S1: what is the mug look like? 320 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,240 S7: Um, it's dark on the bottom. It's heavy. It has 321 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:53,120 S7: a nice cover to it. Keeps the drink a little warmer, longer. 322 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,840 S7: And it says kitchen table partner on the outside. 323 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,959 S1: That's fantastic. Michael is holding it up. I'm seeing it 324 00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:02,560 S1: right here. You know what? I am so glad you're 325 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,040 S1: a kitchen table partner. And, uh. And so, Michael, all 326 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,439 S1: they have to do is go to open lines, and 327 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,200 S1: they can become kitchen table partners, too. 328 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,520 S4: Yeah, but I'm really glad. 329 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:14,080 S6: Okay. 330 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,560 S4: I'll tell you why I come on with you, Chris. 331 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,240 S4: And this is important for you to know, Linda, when 332 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,440 S4: people write letters complaining about my answers, my standard reply is, 333 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,280 S4: I think you have me confused with Chris Fabry. 334 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,399 S6: So thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. 335 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:32,359 S4: So I'm. 336 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:32,760 S6: Happy. 337 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,199 S4: I'd like you I'd like for you to become a 338 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:36,359 S4: back fence partner, too. 339 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:37,320 S6: Yeah, yeah. I'm going to throw. 340 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:37,920 S1: That mug at. 341 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:39,840 S6: You if I get one. I know, but I have. 342 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:41,160 S7: Four of your books. Chris. 343 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,479 S1: Oh, Linda, you just made my day. All right. So sorry. So, 344 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,200 S1: your question for the two Michaels. 345 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,440 S7: Okay, um, we're all sinners. We have a sin nature, 346 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,119 S7: and we're saved by Jesus. But when we go to heaven, 347 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,600 S7: are we still going to have that sin nature? Are 348 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,200 S7: we still going to want to sin? 349 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:04,200 S6: Good question. 350 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,600 S3: I don't think so. I think when we when we 351 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:13,240 S3: die and we our immaterial nature, our soul, our spirit 352 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,080 S3: goes into the presence of God, we are free from 353 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,679 S3: the flesh at that point. And when the body is resurrected, 354 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,080 S3: it's resurrected a glorious body. And we will not be 355 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,159 S3: sending through eternity. Won't want to. And that's going to 356 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,719 S3: be the best thing. Um, I think I think it's 357 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,600 S3: going to be cool to have, you know, long life 358 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,640 S3: and health and all of that. I think for me, 359 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,399 S3: The best part will be. I'm not going to be 360 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,040 S3: tempted anymore. And I won't succumb anymore to that temptation. 361 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:39,679 S3: Can't wait. 362 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:45,119 S1: Because of what? Doctor Rudnick? Why? Why why will we 363 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,040 S1: not have that sin when we go to heaven? 364 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,400 S4: Well, it says in Scripture is what I was thinking, 365 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,120 S4: that when we see him, we shall be like him. 366 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,880 S4: And I don't think that means we're going to become 367 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,600 S4: omnipotent or omniscient or anything like that. I think it 368 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,480 S4: means that because we're supposed to practice holiness now with 369 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,000 S4: the hope that when we see him, he will make 370 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:14,720 S4: us holy. He'll perfect us. Uh, and so, uh, that 371 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,200 S4: that's what it says. I'm looking for the verse where 372 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,440 S4: it says it here. Uh, here it is. It's first 373 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,239 S4: John chapter three. We know that when he appears, we 374 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,520 S4: will be like him, because we will see him as 375 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,080 S4: he is. And everyone who has this hope in him 376 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,050 S4: purifies himself just as he is pure. So it's in 377 00:20:34,050 --> 00:20:36,010 S4: the idea of purifying from sin. We live in a 378 00:20:36,010 --> 00:20:39,610 S4: pure way. We we long to obey him now and 379 00:20:39,609 --> 00:20:43,210 S4: live with purity now, with the expectation that one day 380 00:20:43,210 --> 00:20:46,650 S4: when we see him, he will make us pure completely, 381 00:20:46,650 --> 00:20:49,090 S4: just as he is. Uh, how does he do that? 382 00:20:49,130 --> 00:20:55,690 S4: That's that. The transformation that occurs when. When? Through redemption. 383 00:20:55,730 --> 00:20:59,050 S4: You know, when we talk about being saved. We were 384 00:20:59,050 --> 00:21:01,650 S4: saved in the past. We are being saved in the present. 385 00:21:01,650 --> 00:21:04,970 S4: And we will be saved. We will be redeemed completely 386 00:21:04,970 --> 00:21:07,570 S4: from our sin natures when we see him. That's what 387 00:21:07,570 --> 00:21:08,450 S4: it's talking about. 388 00:21:08,650 --> 00:21:11,929 S1: So, uh, the way that I'm thinking about it in my, 389 00:21:12,050 --> 00:21:15,130 S1: in my head is we are given we are given 390 00:21:15,130 --> 00:21:18,610 S1: the imputed righteousness of Jesus now. So we're seated with 391 00:21:18,609 --> 00:21:24,649 S1: Christ and from Ephesians. But we don't experience that fully 392 00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:29,609 S1: until we we see him like you were just describing that. 393 00:21:29,609 --> 00:21:32,730 S1: That's when the completion of that imputation, when we will 394 00:21:32,730 --> 00:21:35,970 S1: realize it, though in God's eyes he sees His Son 395 00:21:35,970 --> 00:21:37,450 S1: in us. Is that right? 396 00:21:37,490 --> 00:21:40,930 S4: Yeah. Yeah. Michael, wouldn't you say he's the theologian? I'm not. 397 00:21:40,930 --> 00:21:46,010 S4: But I would say that we are imputed righteous positionally now, 398 00:21:46,250 --> 00:21:49,050 S4: but it will be actual when we see him. 399 00:21:49,690 --> 00:21:52,609 S3: Right. Um, you know, Michael, you know this, but there's 400 00:21:52,609 --> 00:21:56,170 S3: there's an expression theologians use. It's called the now and 401 00:21:56,170 --> 00:21:59,129 S3: not yet. And so we are I mean, Chris already 402 00:21:59,130 --> 00:22:03,450 S3: referred to it, but he talks about how it is that, um, 403 00:22:03,930 --> 00:22:06,650 S3: that we've been raised up with Christ and we're seated 404 00:22:06,650 --> 00:22:09,570 S3: with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, which 405 00:22:09,570 --> 00:22:11,570 S3: is weird because I feel like I'm sitting in my 406 00:22:11,570 --> 00:22:15,330 S3: chair in my office right now. Well, it's Ephesians two six. 407 00:22:15,530 --> 00:22:18,730 S3: And so wherever. I mean, we're so unified with Jesus 408 00:22:18,730 --> 00:22:20,570 S3: that where he is, there's a sense in which God 409 00:22:20,570 --> 00:22:23,130 S3: sees us as in him and with him. And yet 410 00:22:23,130 --> 00:22:26,970 S3: we're here now. And so it's now. We have this 411 00:22:27,010 --> 00:22:31,660 S3: amazing redemption right now and it's not yet. No wonder 412 00:22:31,660 --> 00:22:35,340 S3: it's awkward for Christians because we have to live between 413 00:22:35,340 --> 00:22:37,900 S3: the times, as it were, between how we struggle with 414 00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:40,100 S3: things now and how they're going to be, and how 415 00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:42,179 S3: we know they're going to be in the future. 416 00:22:42,940 --> 00:22:48,619 S4: So there's a great verse in Romans eight, I'm sure. Uh, uh, 417 00:22:49,380 --> 00:22:52,660 S4: Mike is is thinking of that verse two, uh, it 418 00:22:52,660 --> 00:22:56,140 S4: says in Romans 830, those he predestined, he also called, 419 00:22:56,380 --> 00:22:59,780 S4: and those he called, he also justified or declared righteous, 420 00:23:00,619 --> 00:23:05,740 S4: and those he justified or declared righteous, he also glorified. 421 00:23:05,740 --> 00:23:09,620 S4: And it's written as completed action, even though it's not 422 00:23:09,619 --> 00:23:14,780 S4: yet happened, because it's so certain that when it's, uh, 423 00:23:14,900 --> 00:23:18,140 S4: grammarians call it a proleptic aorist, the idea is the 424 00:23:18,140 --> 00:23:20,820 S4: action is so certain that in the mind of God, 425 00:23:20,820 --> 00:23:23,780 S4: it's complete, even though it hasn't happened yet. And so 426 00:23:23,780 --> 00:23:25,659 S4: that's our great confidence one day. 427 00:23:26,660 --> 00:23:28,820 S3: And there are a lot of Christians who maintain that 428 00:23:28,820 --> 00:23:33,220 S3: you can be foreknown, predestined, called justified, and not glorified, 429 00:23:33,420 --> 00:23:36,460 S3: that you can lose your salvation. To me, this is 430 00:23:36,460 --> 00:23:38,940 S3: a package deal because of the grammar and the verb 431 00:23:38,980 --> 00:23:41,900 S3: tenses and such. And so I don't think there's any 432 00:23:41,900 --> 00:23:44,940 S3: possibility that a truly saved person can fail to be 433 00:23:44,940 --> 00:23:48,139 S3: glorified because it's God's eternal plan and purpose for us 434 00:23:48,140 --> 00:23:49,060 S3: that we would be. 435 00:23:49,859 --> 00:23:53,060 S1: Linda, I'm glad you got through today. Great question, Jerry. 436 00:23:53,060 --> 00:23:53,500 S1: Before we. 437 00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:54,179 S6: And Linda. 438 00:23:54,180 --> 00:23:55,100 S4: Thank you, thank you. 439 00:23:56,340 --> 00:23:58,020 S6: Thank you for that mug, too. 440 00:23:58,220 --> 00:24:01,619 S1: Um, Jerry, you're in Illinois and you have a question 441 00:24:01,619 --> 00:24:03,060 S1: for the two Michaels. Go ahead. 442 00:24:03,980 --> 00:24:07,220 S8: I do. My question is in Proverbs eight and nine, 443 00:24:07,220 --> 00:24:11,460 S8: it talks about wisdom. In verse one. It talks about 444 00:24:11,460 --> 00:24:16,260 S8: her as in the female form. And in verse 821 445 00:24:16,260 --> 00:24:19,060 S8: it says, the Lord passed me. At the beginning the 446 00:24:19,060 --> 00:24:23,060 S8: Lord possessed me at the beginning of his way before 447 00:24:23,060 --> 00:24:27,300 S8: his words of old. So I'm wondering who wisdom is. 448 00:24:29,619 --> 00:24:34,420 S4: Well, uh, I think Mike's okay with me taking this. Okay. 449 00:24:34,460 --> 00:24:35,180 S3: Yes, please. 450 00:24:36,460 --> 00:24:41,460 S4: Uh, first of all, I want to say that just 451 00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:46,980 S4: as the imagery there is of lady wisdom, and we 452 00:24:46,980 --> 00:24:51,500 S4: would assume some people would assume that because it's lady wisdom, uh, 453 00:24:52,220 --> 00:24:57,419 S4: that wisdom is personified as a woman. Therefore it can't 454 00:24:57,420 --> 00:25:01,340 S4: be referring to God or the Messiah. But, uh, I 455 00:25:01,460 --> 00:25:04,060 S4: think it's just a metaphor. Just like the church is 456 00:25:04,060 --> 00:25:08,180 S4: a bride. But that doesn't mean I can't be part 457 00:25:08,180 --> 00:25:11,460 S4: of the church because I am not female. So, yeah, 458 00:25:11,820 --> 00:25:15,900 S4: these are metaphors. Then, as you say, uh, it says 459 00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:19,620 S4: the Lord, uh, possessed me or or begot me at 460 00:25:19,619 --> 00:25:23,660 S4: the beginning of his creation, uh, before his works long ago. 461 00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:29,190 S4: And it emphasizes the eternality. So this is either eternal 462 00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:33,510 S4: wisdom associated with God's nature or the Son of God, 463 00:25:33,550 --> 00:25:37,750 S4: the Messiah, the personification of wisdom. I think it's messianic. 464 00:25:37,950 --> 00:25:40,669 S4: And there's a great article by Seth Postell in the 465 00:25:40,670 --> 00:25:43,229 S4: Moody Handbook of Messianic Prophecy, which we can send to 466 00:25:43,230 --> 00:25:45,949 S4: you if you hang on, Jerry. Oh, we'll send you 467 00:25:45,950 --> 00:25:47,310 S4: that book, Jerry. 468 00:25:47,350 --> 00:25:49,750 S1: There you go. Maybe a mug, too. So hang on. 469 00:25:49,790 --> 00:26:05,070 S1: More straight ahead. Every month when we get to the eighth, 470 00:26:05,070 --> 00:26:07,510 S1: it's like, oh, great. I get to read about wisdom 471 00:26:07,510 --> 00:26:12,550 S1: today because I read a proverb every day and Proverbs eight. 472 00:26:12,750 --> 00:26:16,630 S1: This is in the CSB. Doesn't wisdom call out? Does 473 00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:21,230 S1: an understanding make her voice heard at the heights overlooking 474 00:26:21,230 --> 00:26:24,950 S1: the road? At the crossroads she takes her stand beside 475 00:26:24,950 --> 00:26:27,230 S1: the gates leading to the city. At the main entrance 476 00:26:27,230 --> 00:26:29,750 S1: she cries out, people, I call out to you. My 477 00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:33,350 S1: cry is to the children of Adam. Learn to be shrewd. You, 478 00:26:33,390 --> 00:26:38,629 S1: who are inexperienced, develop common sense. You who are foolish. Listen, 479 00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:41,990 S1: for I speak of noble things. And what my lips 480 00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:45,550 S1: say is right. For my mouth tells the truth, and 481 00:26:45,550 --> 00:26:48,790 S1: wickedness is detestable to my lips. All the words from 482 00:26:48,790 --> 00:26:52,390 S1: my mouth are righteous. None of them are deceptive or perverse. 483 00:26:52,430 --> 00:26:54,950 S1: All of them are clear to the perceptive and right 484 00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:58,790 S1: to those who discover knowledge. Accept my instruction. I could 485 00:26:58,790 --> 00:27:01,430 S1: go on and on. This is just so good. Except 486 00:27:01,430 --> 00:27:05,910 S1: my instruction, instead of silver and knowledge rather than pure gold. 487 00:27:05,910 --> 00:27:10,590 S1: For wisdom is better than jewels, and nothing desirable can 488 00:27:10,590 --> 00:27:13,510 S1: equal it. Uh, and it goes on from there. So, 489 00:27:13,869 --> 00:27:17,189 S1: Doctor Rudnick, if you're just tuning in, the two Michaels 490 00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:21,030 S1: are here. Doctor Redlich was saying there's a messianic feel 491 00:27:21,070 --> 00:27:24,880 S1: to this proverb. Doctor Van Laningham, do you agree with that? 492 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,200 S3: I do, absolutely. I think I think there's too much 493 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,280 S3: going on in Proverbs eight to be simply a personification 494 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,879 S3: of wisdom, but it's also really cool. In first Corinthians 495 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,240 S3: chapter one and two verses, um, it talks about, well, 496 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,000 S3: let me just read it. It says, we preach Christ 497 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,520 S3: crucified to the Jews, a stumbling block to the Gentiles foolishness. 498 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,600 S3: But to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, 499 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,280 S3: the Christ, the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 500 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,120 S3: Same thing in verse 30 by his doing you are 501 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,520 S3: in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God 502 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,600 S3: and righteousness, sanctification and redemption. And so I think there's 503 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:06,480 S3: definite connections between Proverbs eight and, uh, and Jesus. 504 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:07,880 S6: Mhm. 505 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,040 S4: And, and it's sort of an interesting thing because I 506 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,080 S4: think the way books in the Bible are written, it 507 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,640 S4: kind of leads you along. It's almost like, uh, especially Proverbs. 508 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,600 S4: One of the translations for the word proverb is a 509 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,600 S4: riddle that you have to figure out. And so it's 510 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,760 S4: it's not like, uh, a riddle, like kids ask, but 511 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,520 S4: more like a riddle like we saw in The Hobbit. 512 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,280 S4: You know where Frodo. Bilbo has to answer the riddles 513 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,280 S4: and the contest there, where, if you think about it 514 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,440 S4: long enough, you figure out what that's about. And when 515 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,760 S4: you get to Proverbs 30, as you've been pondering this 516 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:51,000 S4: riddle of Proverbs eight, it says, verse four, who has 517 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,640 S4: gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered 518 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,800 S4: the wind in his hands, who is bound up the 519 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,560 S4: waters in a cloak, who has established all the ends 520 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,640 S4: of the earth? What is his name, and what is 521 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,440 S4: the name of his son, if you know. And that 522 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,200 S4: is a great passage that says, the answer to the 523 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,440 S4: riddle is the son and I. I think it's a 524 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,520 S4: great passage. And in the Moody Handbook of Messianic Prophecy, 525 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,040 S4: I forgot to include Proverbs 30 in that book. 526 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:21,840 S6: Really? 527 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,600 S4: And then this wonderful wife of mine really said, we 528 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,320 S4: need that in the book. And so she wrote the 529 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,719 S4: chapter in Proverbs on Proverbs 30, in the Moody Handbook 530 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,360 S4: of Messianic Prophecy, uh, which is the answer to the 531 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,120 S4: riddle of Proverbs eight. 532 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:39,000 S6: Well. 533 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,120 S1: The place where I get hung up, though, from verse 534 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,000 S1: 22 on, the Lord acquired me at the beginning of 535 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,040 S1: his creation, before his works of long ago. I was 536 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:53,760 S1: formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. 537 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,720 S1: I was born when there were no watery depths. ET cetera, 538 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,800 S1: et cetera. I was a skilled craftsman beside him. So 539 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,520 S1: it's the note in my Bible says this is not Jesus. 540 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,080 S1: Because Jesus was not created. He was not formed. Uh, 541 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,640 S1: he was there in the beginning was the word, and 542 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,200 S1: the word was God, and the word was with God. 543 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:15,760 S1: What do you say to that, Michael? 544 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,490 S4: Verse 22, where it says, the Lord made me. I 545 00:30:19,530 --> 00:30:23,969 S4: like the footnote in the CSB where it says, the 546 00:30:23,970 --> 00:30:28,250 S4: Lord made me, or for me the footnote says, possessed 547 00:30:28,250 --> 00:30:31,690 S4: or begot me. That's really what it is. And the 548 00:30:31,690 --> 00:30:37,290 S4: idea is that just like Psalm two, which talks about 549 00:30:37,290 --> 00:30:42,610 S4: the Son of God being begotten, uh, it has to 550 00:30:42,610 --> 00:30:47,850 S4: do with, uh, enthroned or placed in his circumstance where 551 00:30:47,850 --> 00:30:53,090 S4: he is in his role. Uh, not not that, uh, 552 00:30:53,130 --> 00:30:56,050 S4: he came into being, but he took on this role 553 00:30:56,050 --> 00:31:00,210 S4: of wisdom personified, uh, before creation. 554 00:31:00,610 --> 00:31:02,969 S1: So we're going to send Jerry the Moody Handbook of 555 00:31:02,970 --> 00:31:06,730 S1: Messianic Prophecy. I don't think he's a kitchen table partner. 556 00:31:06,730 --> 00:31:08,450 S1: So you can't send him the mug. 557 00:31:08,690 --> 00:31:09,010 S6: Uh. 558 00:31:10,610 --> 00:31:13,290 S1: Can we can we send him? How should Christians think 559 00:31:13,290 --> 00:31:16,090 S1: about Israel? Tricia, let's throw that in. You know, so 560 00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:18,290 S1: it's a he gets something from I think he should. 561 00:31:18,290 --> 00:31:20,930 S4: Throw in some book you've written, Chris. Don't you think. 562 00:31:22,050 --> 00:31:25,090 S1: I want that mug? I keep hearing that mug that 563 00:31:25,090 --> 00:31:26,970 S1: was talked about a little earlier. It's like I want 564 00:31:26,970 --> 00:31:29,810 S1: one of those. Okay, so, uh, we go to Genesis, 565 00:31:29,810 --> 00:31:30,130 S1: become a. 566 00:31:30,130 --> 00:31:31,570 S4: Kitchen table partner. Chris. 567 00:31:31,770 --> 00:31:35,770 S1: That's true. That is true. I would do it. Fred 568 00:31:35,810 --> 00:31:39,890 S1: is in Minnesota taking us to Genesis chapter six. Hi, Fred. 569 00:31:39,890 --> 00:31:40,570 S1: How are you? 570 00:31:41,570 --> 00:31:43,570 S9: I am good, thanks for asking. 571 00:31:43,770 --> 00:31:47,810 S1: I'm glad to hear it. What's your hang up with 572 00:31:47,810 --> 00:31:49,010 S1: Genesis six? 573 00:31:49,730 --> 00:31:53,890 S9: Well, me and a friend was talking and we got 574 00:31:53,890 --> 00:32:00,130 S9: to thinking on this one. Who were the sons of God? God? 575 00:32:01,850 --> 00:32:03,010 S9: That's my question. 576 00:32:03,330 --> 00:32:07,130 S1: Who were the the the Nephilim? That's who you're talking about, right? 577 00:32:07,170 --> 00:32:09,690 S4: Know the sons of God are different than Nephilim. 578 00:32:09,690 --> 00:32:11,730 S1: Are. The sons of God are different. Okay. 579 00:32:11,770 --> 00:32:16,620 S9: This is. Yeah. Genesis chapter six before the flood. And. 580 00:32:19,380 --> 00:32:22,260 S4: The sons of God took for themselves the daughters of men, 581 00:32:22,260 --> 00:32:27,820 S4: anyone they chose. And they, uh, they conceived together. And 582 00:32:28,180 --> 00:32:30,780 S4: their children became known as the Nephilim. 583 00:32:31,220 --> 00:32:36,620 S1: So some people think that's angelic. It's the angels and the. 584 00:32:36,660 --> 00:32:40,420 S1: And women. Uh, Doctor Redlich, you don't think that? 585 00:32:41,060 --> 00:32:43,940 S4: No. But I you know what I'm going to say? Uh, 586 00:32:43,940 --> 00:32:46,620 S4: Mike and I, Mike V and I tend to have 587 00:32:46,940 --> 00:32:50,860 S4: Siamese brains. We think about so many things the same way. 588 00:32:50,860 --> 00:32:52,820 S4: I think this may be one of the few passages 589 00:32:52,820 --> 00:32:55,420 S4: that we don't look at exactly the same way. 590 00:32:55,460 --> 00:32:55,820 S1: Which is. 591 00:32:56,260 --> 00:32:57,300 S4: Kind of shocking. 592 00:32:57,420 --> 00:32:59,100 S1: You're going to fight about it. Yay! 593 00:32:59,260 --> 00:33:04,860 S4: No, but here's what I think. Uh, in Genesis six two, 594 00:33:04,860 --> 00:33:08,740 S4: the sons of God can't be angels. Although, you know, 595 00:33:08,780 --> 00:33:11,460 S4: that's a phrase that's used of angels in the Book 596 00:33:11,460 --> 00:33:19,980 S4: of Job because, uh, the, uh, the book of Matthew, 597 00:33:19,980 --> 00:33:25,340 S4: Jesus says in Matthew 2230 that in the new, in 598 00:33:25,340 --> 00:33:29,660 S4: our in our new future, uh, we will be like 599 00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:32,700 S4: in heaven. We won't be. We won't be able to reproduce. 600 00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:35,700 S4: We'll be like the angels, we won't marry and won't 601 00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:39,220 S4: be given in marriage. And so what it's saying here, 602 00:33:39,220 --> 00:33:41,940 S4: these sons of God saw daughters of men were beautiful 603 00:33:41,940 --> 00:33:45,500 S4: and took any they chose as wives for themselves. Obviously 604 00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:49,660 S4: they're marrying. So this is not angels. And the Lord said, uh, 605 00:33:49,820 --> 00:33:53,500 S4: so I think the context shows you've got the line 606 00:33:53,580 --> 00:33:56,260 S4: of Cain at the end of chapter four, and then 607 00:33:56,260 --> 00:33:58,860 S4: the line of Seth in chapter five. I think the 608 00:33:58,860 --> 00:34:01,500 S4: Sons of God is the godly line of Seth they 609 00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:04,260 S4: took from the daughters of men, the ungodly line of Cain. 610 00:34:04,460 --> 00:34:09,460 S4: And they're, uh, the Nephilim were, uh, they're the, the, 611 00:34:10,020 --> 00:34:15,350 S4: the outcome of their Uh, marriages. Nephilim is a word 612 00:34:15,350 --> 00:34:18,629 S4: that means fallen ones. So what? What happened was the 613 00:34:18,670 --> 00:34:22,950 S4: godly line was corrupted and the result was fallen humanity. 614 00:34:23,030 --> 00:34:26,469 S4: Further worse than you could imagine. So basically. 615 00:34:27,150 --> 00:34:29,670 S1: Intermarriage with people they shouldn't have married. 616 00:34:30,110 --> 00:34:32,270 S4: Yeah. Godly versus ungodly. 617 00:34:33,350 --> 00:34:36,390 S3: Now, I gotta say, Michael, this may come as a 618 00:34:36,430 --> 00:34:41,150 S3: really radical shock for you. I actually looked into this, uh, 619 00:34:41,150 --> 00:34:44,030 S3: a couple of years ago, and I agree with you 620 00:34:44,070 --> 00:34:44,509 S3: on the. 621 00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:46,470 S10: Oh. You do? Oh, wow. 622 00:34:47,150 --> 00:34:49,630 S3: So now now you and I have no differences of 623 00:34:49,630 --> 00:34:51,870 S3: opinion on anything. Scripture. Isn't that. 624 00:34:51,950 --> 00:34:56,029 S1: Beautiful? There's no reason for one of you. Then I 625 00:34:56,030 --> 00:35:00,549 S1: want somebody who disagrees. Uh, okay, let's go back. Go 626 00:35:00,550 --> 00:35:03,390 S1: back to Fred. Fred, what do you think of what 627 00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:04,550 S1: they've just heard? 628 00:35:05,510 --> 00:35:08,629 S9: I think it might be a possibility. Do you think 629 00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:12,110 S9: there's any remnants of them guys still around? 630 00:35:14,110 --> 00:35:15,030 S10: Uh, you know. 631 00:35:15,070 --> 00:35:19,070 S4: The the Nephilim when it says that they were giants 632 00:35:19,070 --> 00:35:23,750 S4: in the earth? Uh, uh, I think they became infamous 633 00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:26,630 S4: in the earth, and they all perished in the flood. 634 00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:30,069 S4: And then you see in numbers people who are like 635 00:35:30,070 --> 00:35:36,270 S4: the Nephilim, uh, powerful and important. And the the Israelite 636 00:35:36,350 --> 00:35:40,390 S4: spies were afraid of them. Uh, but they reminded them 637 00:35:40,430 --> 00:35:44,430 S4: of what they had heard of about these fallen ones from, uh, 638 00:35:44,430 --> 00:35:45,590 S4: pre-flood times. 639 00:35:45,790 --> 00:35:46,150 S10: Yeah. 640 00:35:46,469 --> 00:35:47,030 S1: Mike v. 641 00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:50,750 S3: Yeah. Well, I, I agree with that. Actually, what Michael 642 00:35:50,750 --> 00:35:52,790 S3: just said. Let me also mention a lot of people 643 00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:56,630 S3: see these sons of God as being angels who somehow 644 00:35:56,670 --> 00:36:00,950 S3: took upon flesh and intermarried with human women. And I think, well, 645 00:36:00,989 --> 00:36:04,110 S3: I doubt that fallen angels would be called the sons 646 00:36:04,110 --> 00:36:07,390 S3: of God. I just doubt that. So I mean, that's 647 00:36:07,390 --> 00:36:09,230 S3: one of the arguments, I think, against the idea that 648 00:36:09,310 --> 00:36:12,990 S3: these are actually angelic beings or something in Genesis six. 649 00:36:14,230 --> 00:36:17,390 S1: That's what I was taught, though. That's what I thought 650 00:36:17,390 --> 00:36:23,029 S1: of looking at the scriptures. And some knowledgeable people have said. 651 00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:26,629 S1: And it made sense to me when you saw, you know, 652 00:36:26,670 --> 00:36:31,670 S1: the decimation of the earth by the flood, uh, that 653 00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:34,910 S1: things had become so evil that there was there was 654 00:36:34,910 --> 00:36:39,670 S1: a demonic influence here, that it wasn't just simply, uh, the, 655 00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:42,069 S1: the people that we're talking about here. So. And that's 656 00:36:42,070 --> 00:36:45,630 S1: why God had to or why he allowed the flood 657 00:36:45,670 --> 00:36:49,029 S1: there and hasn't done that again. So, uh, let me 658 00:36:49,030 --> 00:36:51,790 S1: call time out. We'll get back. We'll talk with the 659 00:36:51,830 --> 00:36:54,830 S1: two Michaels in our final segment. Fred God bless you, friend. 660 00:36:54,830 --> 00:36:57,350 S1: Thanks a lot for calling in here today. Go to Chris. 661 00:36:58,870 --> 00:37:01,270 S1: See more about the program and the two Michaels right 662 00:37:01,270 --> 00:37:12,719 S1: there Chris Fabry live. It is so much fun to 663 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,160 S1: hang out with the two Michaels in this. Great and 664 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,440 S1: thank you for your calls today. Got some great calls 665 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,960 S1: at the radio backyard fence. Don't miss our February edition 666 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,200 S1: of the two Michaels coming up right here on Chris 667 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,640 S1: Fabry Live. And if you want to receive that book, 668 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,200 S1: How Should Christians Think about Israel? By Doctor Rudnick? It's our. 669 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,280 S1: Thank you. You give a gift of any size Chris Fabry. 670 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,920 S1: Let's have it. Three Michaels because Mike's in Illinois. Mike, 671 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,800 S1: what's your question for the two Michaels? 672 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,520 S11: Hello. It's a pleasure to speak to you, gentlemen. Um, 673 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,520 S11: one of the things I graduated with seminary thinking was 674 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:53,800 S11: after analyzing Second Thessalonians two, especially verse 11, a spirit 675 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,359 S11: of deception would come upon the people, the people who 676 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,040 S11: had rejected the truth. So as I left seminary, I thought, well, 677 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,040 S11: the people who have rejected the truth in this dispensation, 678 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,520 S11: There's no chance for them in the tribulation. But those 679 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,520 S11: who haven't been reached with the gospel in this church 680 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,879 S11: age are they are. They won't have the spirit of deception, 681 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,120 S11: in which case that's where a lot of the tribulation 682 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,120 S11: saints will come from. And I was fairly happy with 683 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:27,600 S11: that opinion until it dawned on me the 144,000 Jews 684 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,000 S11: come to Christ. I'm thinking through the ministry of Moses 685 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,280 S11: and Elijah, or two people in the spirit and power 686 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:38,000 S11: of Elijah, and chances are, they, even during the church age, 687 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,839 S11: had heard the gospel. And so that first perspective I 688 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:43,600 S11: just told you kind of took a bit of a 689 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,319 S11: hit thinking that if they if they had heard the gospel, 690 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,480 S11: they are not subject to the spirit of deception that 691 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,279 S11: the Lord is going to ascend in judgment upon people. 692 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,040 S11: And if God's going to save them, is it possible 693 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,200 S11: that he will save other people? So just in a 694 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,200 S11: general sort of way, uh, who is really being referred 695 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,890 S11: to in Second Thessalonians 211 who receives the spirit of deception? 696 00:39:09,489 --> 00:39:12,210 S11: And and and is there really going to be fruit 697 00:39:12,210 --> 00:39:15,210 S11: in the tribulation for people who have heard the gospel 698 00:39:15,210 --> 00:39:16,450 S11: during this church age? 699 00:39:18,170 --> 00:39:22,210 S3: Well, well, okay. I think probably Mike like your name, 700 00:39:22,210 --> 00:39:25,770 S3: by the way. I think in verse 11 it's talking 701 00:39:25,770 --> 00:39:30,650 S3: about people during the tribulation who will receive this, this, 702 00:39:31,050 --> 00:39:34,490 S3: this delusion. In verse eight it says then that lawless, 703 00:39:34,770 --> 00:39:37,089 S3: lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will slay 704 00:39:37,090 --> 00:39:39,010 S3: with the breath of his mouth. The one whose coming 705 00:39:39,050 --> 00:39:41,489 S3: is in accord with the activity of Satan. There's going 706 00:39:41,530 --> 00:39:44,730 S3: to you know, I think we're talking about the Antichrist 707 00:39:44,770 --> 00:39:48,770 S3: who's already present on the scene. And then there is 708 00:39:48,810 --> 00:39:52,850 S3: this deluding spirit, so to speak, that will, uh, sort 709 00:39:52,850 --> 00:39:57,569 S3: of propel them to embrace falsely this Antichrist. It seems 710 00:39:57,570 --> 00:39:59,610 S3: to me that that's what we're talking about. It's not referring, 711 00:39:59,650 --> 00:40:03,370 S3: I don't think, to people now, um, prior to the tribulation. 712 00:40:05,170 --> 00:40:06,529 S1: Doctor. Do you agree with that? 713 00:40:06,890 --> 00:40:10,330 S4: I agree, I think that that the delusion isn't that 714 00:40:10,330 --> 00:40:15,250 S4: people who heard the gospel before the tribulation won't, won't believe. 715 00:40:15,250 --> 00:40:17,410 S4: I think there will be. And we're going to see 716 00:40:17,410 --> 00:40:21,489 S4: is a great revival, uh, beginning with the 144,000, not 717 00:40:21,489 --> 00:40:27,210 S4: necessarily through the testimony of, of the two witnesses, but 718 00:40:27,250 --> 00:40:29,810 S4: maybe because there will be Bibles left around and they 719 00:40:29,810 --> 00:40:34,169 S4: will read them. Uh, maybe because there will be tracts, books. 720 00:40:34,170 --> 00:40:38,170 S4: Maybe they'll pick up, uh, the Moody Handbook of Messianic Prophecy. 721 00:40:38,210 --> 00:40:42,930 S4: Who knows? Uh, but they're going to become believers, and 722 00:40:42,930 --> 00:40:44,969 S4: then they're going to proclaim the gospel. They're going to 723 00:40:44,969 --> 00:40:48,770 S4: reach other Jewish people, they're going to reach Gentile nations, 724 00:40:48,770 --> 00:40:50,330 S4: and they're going to be it's going to be a 725 00:40:50,330 --> 00:40:54,649 S4: great revival in the tribulation period, more than we ever 726 00:40:54,650 --> 00:40:57,250 S4: have seen. And I think a lot of us forget that. 727 00:40:57,250 --> 00:40:59,650 S4: But there will be a delusion as well. Go ahead. Mike. 728 00:41:00,370 --> 00:41:03,100 S3: Uh, you know, I think Michael said it. There's going 729 00:41:03,140 --> 00:41:05,700 S3: to be Bibles left behind. Maybe the maybe the Left 730 00:41:05,700 --> 00:41:07,020 S3: Behind series will. 731 00:41:07,060 --> 00:41:07,700 S10: Be left. 732 00:41:07,700 --> 00:41:08,100 S3: Behind. 733 00:41:08,140 --> 00:41:08,700 S10: Left behind. 734 00:41:09,020 --> 00:41:11,219 S3: And they'll get saved by reading Jerry Jenkins. That could 735 00:41:11,219 --> 00:41:12,580 S3: be the case. So. 736 00:41:13,060 --> 00:41:16,460 S1: Uh, Mike in Illinois, what do you say to that? 737 00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:17,260 S1: Does that help? 738 00:41:18,219 --> 00:41:22,859 S11: Well, thank you for that perspective. Uh, my understanding of 739 00:41:22,860 --> 00:41:27,660 S11: Second Thessalonians two, uh, so you're you're putting the people 740 00:41:27,660 --> 00:41:31,219 S11: who have rejected the truth in the tribulation, period, not 741 00:41:31,219 --> 00:41:33,060 S11: necessarily in the church age. 742 00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:34,380 S10: Right. 743 00:41:34,420 --> 00:41:36,939 S3: Right. I mean, there's people who are deluded now and 744 00:41:36,980 --> 00:41:40,580 S3: who who reject things now, but I think that there's 745 00:41:40,580 --> 00:41:44,060 S3: there's this is something that's kind of different from that, 746 00:41:44,060 --> 00:41:45,940 S3: even maybe at a larger scale than what we might 747 00:41:45,940 --> 00:41:46,940 S3: even have today. 748 00:41:48,340 --> 00:41:52,580 S11: Mhm. Okay. Well that first perspective I told you it 749 00:41:52,620 --> 00:41:56,100 S11: uh I, it's not like I'm taking a poll anywhere 750 00:41:56,100 --> 00:41:58,740 S11: and seeing how many people agree. How many don't agree. 751 00:41:59,060 --> 00:42:01,819 S11: But it, but it was sort of phrased to me 752 00:42:01,820 --> 00:42:05,380 S11: like there's an urgency to get the gospel out right now, 753 00:42:05,500 --> 00:42:08,580 S11: to win people to the Lord. Just don't trust that, hey, 754 00:42:08,620 --> 00:42:11,780 S11: I'll get another chance in the tribulation. Come to Christ. Now, 755 00:42:11,820 --> 00:42:15,100 S11: I still have family that needs Christ and today is 756 00:42:15,100 --> 00:42:17,739 S11: the day of salvation. And don't wait for me to 757 00:42:17,780 --> 00:42:21,180 S11: disappear on rapture day to think, oh, maybe what Mike's 758 00:42:21,180 --> 00:42:24,140 S11: been saying is really true. I was sort of thinking 759 00:42:24,140 --> 00:42:27,259 S11: that spirit of deception would be targeting those people. 760 00:42:27,820 --> 00:42:29,620 S10: Mike. Well, listen, I think we need. 761 00:42:29,620 --> 00:42:32,620 S4: To get the gospel out today. Not because of the 762 00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:35,460 S4: spirit of delusion and the tribulation, but because we can 763 00:42:35,460 --> 00:42:38,580 S4: face God today. The Bible says today your soul is 764 00:42:38,580 --> 00:42:40,779 S4: required of you. Remember the parable of the man with 765 00:42:40,780 --> 00:42:44,739 S4: the with the barns. So we need to get the 766 00:42:44,780 --> 00:42:49,540 S4: gospel to people. Listen, people die in car accidents. People 767 00:42:49,540 --> 00:42:53,260 S4: die of heart attacks at young ages. Uh, dear friend 768 00:42:53,260 --> 00:42:58,700 S4: of mine, uh, at 42, is dying of pancreatic cancer. Sudden, uh, 769 00:42:58,739 --> 00:43:03,660 S4: stage four. It happens. Uh, we need to not wait. Uh, 770 00:43:03,660 --> 00:43:05,899 S4: we need to get the gospel out. And it's not 771 00:43:05,900 --> 00:43:09,500 S4: because of the tribulation. It's because people need to be 772 00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:11,100 S4: ready to face God every day. 773 00:43:12,140 --> 00:43:15,020 S3: And let me also say, Mike, the urgency we can 774 00:43:15,020 --> 00:43:19,779 S3: get the urgency from second Thessalonians chapter one, verses six 775 00:43:19,820 --> 00:43:23,860 S3: through nine, which talks about the retribution of the Lord. Um, 776 00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:27,620 S3: and that's not in the tribulation. So I think that, um, 777 00:43:27,660 --> 00:43:29,819 S3: we can get we can get urgency there. And it 778 00:43:29,820 --> 00:43:33,420 S3: doesn't have to be in that part of second Thessalonians two. 779 00:43:33,780 --> 00:43:37,459 S1: Yeah. Mike. Thank you. Uh, just to end on that note, 780 00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:40,780 S1: Lisa Ann says on Facebook, what are some positive steps 781 00:43:40,900 --> 00:43:44,060 S1: to share our faith with people who hate the gospel 782 00:43:44,340 --> 00:43:47,979 S1: without further alienating them? We know many people who want 783 00:43:48,020 --> 00:43:49,980 S1: no part of the Christian faith, and we still want 784 00:43:49,980 --> 00:43:53,460 S1: to witness to them in some kind and loving ways, 785 00:43:53,460 --> 00:43:56,860 S1: but I feel ill equipped. So how do you reach 786 00:43:56,860 --> 00:44:00,790 S1: out to people who are away from the gospel, or 787 00:44:00,790 --> 00:44:03,910 S1: maybe have church heard or whatever it is, the reason 788 00:44:03,910 --> 00:44:06,950 S1: that they're, uh, they're turning away. What would you say? 789 00:44:06,989 --> 00:44:08,390 S10: So the the. 790 00:44:08,430 --> 00:44:13,109 S4: Gospel, gospel seeds can only be sown in soil that's 791 00:44:13,110 --> 00:44:17,110 S4: been prepared. And it sounds like these people are not 792 00:44:17,150 --> 00:44:20,470 S4: their soil, but they're not prepared. The way we prepare 793 00:44:20,469 --> 00:44:26,350 S4: the soil is by being kind, loving, uh, being doing 794 00:44:26,350 --> 00:44:29,870 S4: all we can to establish a loving relationship with them 795 00:44:29,870 --> 00:44:34,710 S4: so that, uh, basically, I once heard Joe Aldrich say 796 00:44:34,710 --> 00:44:37,670 S4: that we love people till they ask us why. And 797 00:44:37,670 --> 00:44:41,910 S4: and that's how we prepare the soil for the gospel. And, uh, 798 00:44:42,110 --> 00:44:45,950 S4: so I don't think if you do drive by witnessing, 799 00:44:45,950 --> 00:44:49,469 S4: it's not it's not going to help because there will 800 00:44:49,469 --> 00:44:52,710 S4: be people who will be hostile and, uh, they're not 801 00:44:52,710 --> 00:44:57,950 S4: going to like it. But if we establish relationships, redemptive relationships, 802 00:44:57,989 --> 00:45:01,350 S4: love people. They're going to say, I am so obnoxious. 803 00:45:01,350 --> 00:45:04,149 S4: How is it you're so kind to me? And the 804 00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:06,830 S4: result will be that we'll be able to share gospel 805 00:45:06,830 --> 00:45:07,590 S4: seeds with them. 806 00:45:07,989 --> 00:45:09,190 S1: Mike V, what do you say? 807 00:45:09,989 --> 00:45:13,030 S3: I think we got to throw seed wherever we can, 808 00:45:13,030 --> 00:45:15,270 S3: and we leave the results to God, and people might 809 00:45:15,270 --> 00:45:18,870 S3: get upset with us. The cross is offensive. It just is. 810 00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:23,150 S3: But that doesn't mean that we don't share our faith. Kindly. Gently, 811 00:45:23,150 --> 00:45:25,310 S3: with with love and respect to the people that we're 812 00:45:25,310 --> 00:45:25,990 S3: sharing with. 813 00:45:26,910 --> 00:45:28,989 S1: I didn't ask this question, but I've been thinking about 814 00:45:28,989 --> 00:45:32,069 S1: it a lot that when Jesus said, you know, you 815 00:45:32,070 --> 00:45:34,310 S1: must take up, follow me, you must take up your 816 00:45:34,310 --> 00:45:38,310 S1: cross daily and follow me. When we read that, we 817 00:45:38,310 --> 00:45:42,430 S1: look at it from what he experienced. But at the 818 00:45:42,430 --> 00:45:45,910 S1: time he said that the disciples didn't understand. They hadn't 819 00:45:45,910 --> 00:45:50,190 S1: seen him walk with that cross. And so it means, 820 00:45:50,230 --> 00:45:53,790 S1: you know, it's such a rich thing about taking up 821 00:45:53,790 --> 00:45:57,719 S1: that cross and maybe loving your neighbor and loving your 822 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,920 S1: friend who disagrees with you about the faith or one 823 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,080 S1: way that you know it. You get many ways to God, 824 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,520 S1: that kind of thing. Maybe loving that other person and 825 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,959 S1: just being kind to them and asking them questions is 826 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,399 S1: a good way to have a relationship with them, so 827 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,680 S1: that they will ask you that question. Michaels, thank you 828 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,799 S1: for being here today. It's great to have. 829 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:21,200 S10: You back. 830 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,799 S1: With us. Hope you feel better, doctor Rudnick. Uh, I 831 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,840 S1: will listen to Open Line on Saturday. Become a kitchen 832 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:32,279 S1: table partner. Get the mug. And, uh, you guys come 833 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,600 S1: back in February and let's do this again all over again. 834 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:36,640 S10: Thank you. Yeah. 835 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:38,960 S1: Thank you, friends, for listening. Chris Fabry Live is a 836 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,680 S1: production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. 837 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,759 S1: Online at Chris Dot.