S1: And it says, I saw all the toil and all
S1: the skill in work that comes from a man's envy
S1: of his neighbor. It's that underlying drive that makes all
S1: of my work less enjoyable than God would want us
S1: to have it. I just think the internal cost is
S1: it eats away at us. It's like something that just
S1: corrodes my peace and my joy and my love for people.
S2: Welcome to building relationships with doctor Gary Chapman, New York
S2: Times best selling author of The Five Love Languages. Today,
S2: a problem that is often undetected. But if you knew
S2: the damage it was causing, you would do everything possible
S2: to root it out. What is it? Find out. Today
S2: as we talk with pastor and author Mike Flores.
S1: The answer to the question what is.
S3: It? Is in the title of Pastor Mike's latest book,
S3: envy A Big problem you didn't Know You Had. I
S3: think it's an important issue for us, and we're going
S3: to talk about it today. Gary, you have counseled individuals
S3: and couples through the years. Is envy one of those
S3: problems you saw kind of surfacing in those relationships?
S4: Oh, no. No, never, never, never, never, Chris, you know.
S5: Allison, I think I think everybody's tempted to envy, you know,
S5: wherever you are in the journey, you can always see
S5: somebody else. It's somewhere where, oh, I'd like to be there.
S5: You know, this is going to be a good discussion.
S5: And I think it's right. It's a problem that people
S5: don't know they have. So, yes. Uh, I'm glad we're
S5: going to be talking with Mike about this.
S3: Let's let Mike fubar has put the finger on the
S3: nerve of envy. Today. He is the founding pastor of
S3: Compass Bible Church and president of Compass Bible Institute in
S3: Aliso Viejo, California. He's a graduate of Moody Bible Institute,
S3: Talbot School of Theology, and Westminster Theological Seminary in California.
S3: He's heard on hundreds of stations on the Focal Point
S3: radio program, and he's written several books, including Raising Men,
S3: Not Boys and Ten Mistakes People Make About Heaven, hell,
S3: and the afterlife. Mike and his wife Carlyn have three
S3: children and are featured. Resource is his latest envy a
S3: big problem you didn't know you had? Find out more
S3: at building relationships.us.
S5: Well Mike, welcome back to Building Relationships.
S1: Well thank you. It's great to be here, Gary.
S5: Now you obviously think it's an important issue for us
S5: because you wrote a book on it. Why did you
S5: tackle envy?
S1: Well, I never set out to write a book on
S1: it initially, but, uh, I had started to see so
S1: many situations here in my church, longtime pastor in Southern California.
S1: And the more I pondered what was going on here
S1: with this small group leader or this, you know, home
S1: fellowship group or this staff member conflict, I just kept
S1: tracing it back to it seems like there's an underlying
S1: sin here, and the more I try to diagnose it,
S1: I kept coming back to the concept of envy. And
S1: then I happened to be preaching through a passage in
S1: Scripture where the diagnosis of Paul being run out of
S1: town was that the synagogue leaders were envious of him.
S1: And I thought, man, that's it, that's it. And I
S1: happened to be at a conference when I had someone
S1: from Moody Publishing come up to me. He said, hey,
S1: you know, you've written books for us before. What? What's
S1: on your heart are. Yeah, nothing. I'm just plowing through it.
S1: And then I stopped. He started to walk away. He said,
S1: I have thought about an important issue that I haven't
S1: read much on at all out there, and I said envy.
S1: And I really thought when I said that no one's
S1: going to be interested in publishing a book on that.
S1: But sure enough, he came back and said, that sounds
S1: like an important idea. So I guess just pulling him
S1: back into the conversation, uh, it created a lot of
S1: work for me because then I was I was diving
S1: into the topic of envy, reading everything I could find,
S1: which frankly, is not a lot in the modern era,
S1: a lot in church history, but not a lot right now.
S1: So I think, I think there's definitely time for us
S1: to spend, uh, you know, our open heart, open Bible
S1: prayerfully saying, God, search me, try me know if there's any,
S1: you know, any wicked way in me as it relates
S1: to the concept of envy. And so I wrote the
S1: book and we'll see if God uses it. I hope
S1: he does.
S5: I think he will. Well, let's define the term. What
S5: is envy?
S1: Yeah, envy. Envy is we say it all the time
S1: like I envy you. You're going on that that trip
S1: to Europe or whatever. That's not really envy. If envy
S1: has to have an added component. Let's go back to
S1: a word that I think all of us are familiar
S1: with the 10th commandment you should not covet, right? You
S1: shall not covet. And then it gives all those examples.
S1: Matter of fact, it's the most, uh, there's the most
S1: verbiage about examples in the 10th commandment than any other.
S1: And it really has to do with that, that strong
S1: desire to have a thing or a relationship or an
S1: experience that I just can't be happy without. That's how
S1: I like to define it, define it. And this covetousness
S1: is I've got to have that to be happy. Now,
S1: now that there's a lot of that in our lives. Right?
S1: We need to fight that all the time. And it's
S1: in God's Big Ten. But but envy is a step
S1: beyond that. Someone nearby, someone close to me. So one
S1: of my small groups, someone at church, someone on my staff,
S1: someone who's in the office next to me, who has
S1: that thing I think I've got to have, and that's
S1: going to make me happy. And now all of a sudden,
S1: I find, creeping on top of that desire, my resentment
S1: that he has it. Or that she has it and
S1: it can be anything I can. I can say, I
S1: really wish I were more fit, you know, I wish
S1: I had smarter children, I wish I had a better marriage,
S1: whatever it might be. And then that's, that's that can
S1: be a really consuming desire. But as soon as I
S1: see someone that has it and they're near me, it's
S1: not like looking at someone far away in Hollywood that
S1: has the car I want. I'm talking about the guy
S1: drives up next to me at the office, in the
S1: car I want, and I start to resent him. I
S1: find myself being critical. I find that I'm not happy
S1: with him, and I'm looking at him differently because he
S1: has what I want. That really is envy. And right
S1: out of the gate in the Bible, of course, by
S1: Genesis four, we've got Cain killing Abel because Abel had
S1: something that he wanted. And and instead of just going
S1: to God, which God said, hey, let's deal with this
S1: between you and I. But he didn't do that. Instead,
S1: he fixated on his brother that had what he wanted,
S1: and he became increasingly angry toward him, hostile toward him,
S1: not just critical and bitter like we can be, but
S1: he then wanted to lash out against him. We do
S1: it with our words. Oftentimes, I hope we have no
S1: murderers out there who have murdered because of envy, but
S1: it is a murderous motive, and we've got to check
S1: our hearts on this.
S5: Yeah, well, you know, I often hear people use the
S5: word jealousy and envy kind of interchangeably, but I'm hearing
S5: you say envy. There's a difference between the two.
S1: Yeah, and I can be jealous of things in a
S1: in an appropriate way. Right. If I, my my neighbor
S1: is hitting on my wife, I can be jealous. And
S1: that's right. She's my wife, right? He should not be
S1: romantically interested in my wife. And there's a kind of
S1: sense of, this is mine, and it's appropriate for me
S1: to protect it. Well, of course I can be jealous
S1: in the wrong way as well. Obviously, I can have
S1: a friend that goes golfing more often with his buddy
S1: than he does with me, and I can be jealous,
S1: but I have no no right to to capitalize on
S1: his golf time. So there are times I can be
S1: jealous when I shouldn't be, and that is, I want
S1: to maintain this. I want this to be mine and
S1: it's not mine. And then there are times when we
S1: want something to stay and remain mine that should be mine.
S1: And that's the kind of thing that that's. Jealousy can
S1: be good. As God says, he's a jealous God. Exodus 34. Right?
S1: I'm a jealous God. I'm so jealous. My name is jealous,
S1: he says, because you're my people and you should worship me,
S1: and I should fulfill your desires because I'm God and
S1: we should have this good relationship. So you shouldn't be
S1: bowing down to idols or chasing something else. And that's
S1: an appropriate jealousy. But there's an inappropriate jealousy. I want
S1: something that really is not mine to say this is mine.
S1: That's the possessiveness toward things or people that aren't really mine.
S1: But when when it comes to envy, there's never a
S1: good kind of envy. There can be a good kind
S1: of jealousy that's appropriate. There's never an appropriate envy, which
S1: is a resentment and a bitterness towards something, towards someone
S1: because of something they have, whether it's an opportunity, a talent,
S1: or whatever it might be. So envy is always bad.
S1: Jealousy could be right. But driving it all, I think
S1: it's fair to say, is that covetousness? That I really
S1: want to have something I don't have. And so they're
S1: all related jealousy, envy, covetousness. But we need to distinguish
S1: envy when I start to be bitter. And I think
S1: there's a lot more bitterness in our lives than we
S1: care to think if we start looking for it. And
S1: it's ruining a lot of relationships that we have and
S1: we don't even know it.
S5: Mike address the subtitle of the book Why is Envy
S5: the problem? We didn't know we had.
S1: Yeah, well, you know, in church history, they talked about
S1: these capital sins, the deadly sins, the seven deadly sins.
S1: And I think they rightly and intelligently started to realize
S1: that there are sins that are the source of other sins.
S1: And some of them we understand when it happens. Anger
S1: can be a kind of foundational sin that affects a
S1: lot of other things in our lives. And envy is
S1: kind of easy to detect. But anger is. But envy
S1: is not. It's a little more of a subtle, under-the-radar
S1: kind of sin. And frankly, without being conspiratorial. Although I
S1: think Satan is is a conspirator. Uh, I think he
S1: loves to keep it under the surface. And as I
S1: said at the outset, I couldn't find hardly any modern
S1: books written from a Christian perspective about the problem of envy. Uh,
S1: but in church history, they they saw it. So I
S1: think now more than ever, the subtitle is probably more
S1: applicable than it's been in other epics of church history.
S1: As a matter of fact, the first four centuries of
S1: the church, they talked about envy all the time. As
S1: a matter of fact, they said the real sin, the
S1: ultimate sin of all sins that started sin in the
S1: first place, was the envy of Satan. He didn't just
S1: want something God had, but he resented God for having
S1: it and became God's opponent. And they used to preach
S1: on the fact that when we're envious, we're sharing in
S1: the first real destructive sin in the universe. And everyone
S1: had that on their radar. Today, though, I've been a
S1: pastor almost 40 years here in Southern California, I don't
S1: have people coming to me on any regularity, if at all,
S1: and saying, pastor, I got to tell you, I really
S1: need to confess this sin of envy. I mean, a
S1: lot of other sins, right? They've treated their wife wrong,
S1: or there's pornography or whatever, but not this one. So
S1: this goes undetected, I think, because there's not a lot
S1: of attention, and it doesn't really ring the bell that
S1: some of the other fundamental capital sins ring when, when
S1: we engage in them.
S6: Yeah.
S3: So, Mike, as I'm listening to you, I just went
S3: to the bank yesterday as we're recording this and there
S3: is a fellow who is driving this Toyota that was
S3: just the most beautiful car I think I've ever seen.
S3: It was this bright red and it's like, and I,
S3: I walked in, there weren't that many people in and
S3: I tried to figure out who it was. It was
S3: driving that to see what I needed to do in
S3: order to have a car like that. And I realized
S3: exactly what you're talking about. It's like, am I going
S3: to be, you know, excited for him living the life
S3: or am I going to be? Oh, you know, I
S3: wish I had that. So let me ask you this.
S3: Is there a way to identify this? Do you have
S3: an envious monitor? Is there is there a test I
S3: can take to see if this is somewhere subterranean in
S3: my heart?
S1: Yeah. Well, you know, our fallen nature loves to cover
S1: any sin that we know. The Holy Spirit would love
S1: to put his finger on. So I referenced the the
S1: the prayer earlier, but I really think Psalm 139 needs
S1: to be the starting point, probably of every morning, and
S1: something I end my day with, and that is that
S1: God needs to search my heart. I need to be
S1: open handed before God and say, God, you know me.
S1: You know what motivates me. You know why I gossip today.
S1: You know why I criticize my coworker. You know why
S1: I said things that were pointing out the negative on
S1: that guy's project at work. But search me. Try me.
S1: Know my heart. See if there's there's thoughts in me
S1: and ways in me that are grievous to you. I
S1: want to be led in the everlasting way. So it
S1: really starts with being open. And if we're an open
S1: book with God in our prayer life, and of course,
S1: he knows all that's going on with us. But if
S1: we say, God, what's going on here with me today?
S1: Was there any motive? Because that's the thing. Envy is
S1: a is a driving motive under the surface. And we
S1: to to identify the motives is difficult unless we really
S1: just turn the noise down of the life. We turn
S1: our headphones off, we turn the television off, we turn
S1: all the noise off, and we get on our knees
S1: and say, God, is it there? And I think when
S1: you see it in and it manifests itself in things
S1: like being discontent, right? You get in your car, you
S1: don't enjoy your car anymore because you're thinking about that
S1: guy's car. And when that guy becomes the guy who's
S1: in the office next to you, it's even harder to
S1: be content. And now you're picking out all the reasons
S1: that guy, you know, I don't even know why he
S1: can afford that car. He's not even that good at
S1: his job. And on we go down a road that
S1: just starts to, as Proverbs 1430 says, it just starts
S1: to rot our bones. We're not happy. Our hearts are
S1: are all tied up in knots because we don't like
S1: what other people have. When I feel like they've got
S1: advantages I don't have or blessings I don't have, and
S1: we can't rejoice with them. Because frankly, as the Bible says,
S1: we don't really love them because the first prohibition in
S1: that list there in first Corinthians 13 is that love
S1: does not. Not envy. And why did it come first
S1: in that list? Right? When when God says, here's what,
S1: here's what love is not? Why did he start with that? Right?
S1: It certainly was the first sin in humanity where you
S1: see a brother willing to raise his hand against his brother.
S1: And I do think that needs to be something where
S1: we say God is there critical. Is there a critical
S1: set of, of of thoughts I have toward people that
S1: I'm close to that I work with? You know, is
S1: there something going on in me? And when you ask
S1: God that with a real sincere heart, I do think
S1: God has a way of just connecting the dots for us.
S1: And of course, a book like this that's going to
S1: page after page gets you thinking about practical situations as
S1: you're scrolling through, you know, Facebook, looking at people that
S1: seem to have better vacations and better lives than you do. Uh,
S1: I just think we can start to recognize. Yeah, it's there,
S1: it's a problem. It's creating a lot of things in
S1: my life that God wants to get rid of, and
S1: a lot of them. It's not like this is a
S1: bad thing to get rid of this, right. God wants
S1: joy and contentment in our lives and on the spectrum
S1: of joy and contentment on the other end of it
S1: is a resentful, envious dissatisfaction with my life. And so
S1: if I can get rid of this right, it's going
S1: to move me toward the things that I know God
S1: wants love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. I mean, these are
S1: the great things God would like to do in our lives.
S1: And envy is there secretly pushing it off the shelf,
S1: you know? And we've got to say, God help me
S1: to see this. I can't just try and double down
S1: on a lot of the the good feelings. I like
S1: to feel good today. God, we need to say, what
S1: is it that's causing all of this bitterness, this, this envious,
S1: kind of rotting discontentment in my heart? And I think
S1: it just takes time for us to do that self-analysis.
S6: Well, that.
S3: What you're talking about is, is not just that 50%
S3: of it is the prayer search me. Oh, God. The
S3: other half of it is really listening and taking the time,
S3: like you say, of of shutting the other things out.
S3: So you have to be committed to to listening to
S3: what he's saying to you.
S1: Right? Oh, yeah. You have to. I mean, think about it.
S1: The spirit is sent into the world to convict us
S1: of sin and righteousness and judgment, right? Not just in non-Christians,
S1: but even in our lives. When we grieve him, right
S1: when we quench him, he'd love to point it out
S1: just like a parent, right? If we're trying to discipline
S1: our children to let them know they're doing something wrong,
S1: if they were to really sincerely ask, hey, dad, what
S1: am I doing wrong here? It's not like we're going
S1: to obfuscate and be evasive. We're going to we're going
S1: to tell them, right? We're going to say, this is it.
S1: I've been waiting for you to ask me what the
S1: problem is. I really want you to see it because
S1: it's for your own good. And I just want us
S1: to spend more time thinking about it. And after we
S1: read this book, which seems like. Why would I read
S1: a book on sin? We need to. And then we
S1: move on to the next. Is there greed? Right? Is
S1: is there anger? Right? What are the kinds of things
S1: going on in my life that are leading to all
S1: the destructive kinds of things that I just haven't taken
S1: the time to connect the dots on?
S6: Yeah.
S5: Search me. Oh, God, and know my heart. I think
S5: it's a prayer God will answer. As you said, Chris,
S5: if we're listening, get your pencil ready. He will bring
S5: it to mind.
S7: Exactly.
S5: But you know, Mike, you you wrote in the book
S5: about the internal cost of the sin of envy. What
S5: are those? Internal cost?
S1: Yeah, well, we do want to have what God would
S1: like us to have when it comes to the fruit
S1: of his spirit. And I just. I'm telling you, there's
S1: no possible way we can truly love someone and be
S1: envious of them at the same time, right? It's the
S1: more I envy, the less I love. I can't be
S1: content and enjoy the good gifts that God gives me.
S1: If I'm busy being resentful of my neighbor who has
S1: what I would like to have, I can't enjoy that
S1: kind of peace of mind that God would like to
S1: give me. He wants us to be at peace. I
S1: think of the book of Ecclesiastes, right? And it's such
S1: a negative book, it seems, but it always stops and says,
S1: just be good. If you just enjoyed the things you have.
S1: Enjoy your wife, enjoy your job right, take pleasure in
S1: your work. And yet it's that book that I found,
S1: a little verse I just must have read over a
S1: thousand times and never stopped to take in. And Ecclesiastes
S1: four four and it says, I saw all the toil
S1: and all the skill in work that comes from a
S1: man's envy of his neighbor. And I thought, man, it's
S1: right there, right? It's that underlying drive that makes all
S1: of my work less enjoyable than God would want us
S1: to have it. And so I just think the internal
S1: cost is it eats away at us. It's like something
S1: that just corrodes my peace and my joy and my
S1: love for people. I mean, when I look at verse
S1: like in Romans where it says I'm supposed to to
S1: weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice.
S1: That's kind of how I read it. The first part
S1: is the one I want to focus on because, you know, I, I,
S1: I love feeling compassion for people that are hurting. Easy
S1: for me. To get a call. If someone that's just
S1: been an accident and they're hurting to to take my day,
S1: however happy it is, and go there and shed a
S1: tear at the hospital, holding their hand, getting them through
S1: their trial, sitting down and praying with the family. I
S1: can I can really weep with those who weep. It's
S1: not that hard. I see their pain and I want
S1: to get involved in it. But when I want to
S1: rejoice with those who rejoice, especially here in California where
S1: almost impossible to buy a house, it seems, I remember
S1: for years I probably 15 years in my marriage till
S1: I could finally buy my first tiny little house, and
S1: I saw other people write half halfway, you know, into
S1: their careers than I was, right? Just married. And they're
S1: buying big houses. And I'm thinking, how can I really
S1: rejoice with them in this? It ruins my relationship. It
S1: just changes so many things inside of my heart. And
S1: I can't have that kind of loving relationship I know
S1: that Jesus has for my friends. I'd like to have that.
S1: And to get there, I've got to deal with envy.
S5: I think our listeners are identifying with what you're saying.
S5: You know, there are several references in the book about
S5: the way envy disrupts our relationships with people. Can you
S5: give us some examples of that?
S8: Yeah, I.
S1: Think of first Samuel 18. If you had just discovered
S1: a young guy in your army who came out of
S1: nowhere delivering cheese and bread to his brothers, and he
S1: takes down the great Philistine champion, I think you'd be like, wow,
S1: it's so great. I mean, I run a few organizations.
S1: If I found the great new hotshot who's just killing it,
S1: you know, metaphorically, I'm like, that'd be great. But Saul
S1: can't even rejoice that he has David on his team, right?
S1: Because he starts to hear the praises of of the
S1: people in his in his kingdom. I love the way
S1: it's even put. The women were singing the song. David. Right. David. David.
S1: So Saul has struck his thousand, but David his 10,000.
S1: And instead of him saying, wow, I'm so glad God
S1: you've brought this great warrior onto our army, it's just
S1: like we're a better country because of David, right? He can't.
S1: It's that Saul was very angry and this saying displeased him.
S1: And he says they've ascribed to David ten thousands and
S1: to me thousands. What more can he have but the kingdom?
S1: And from that day on it says, Saul eyed David,
S1: which is really what the word envy means. We put
S1: an eye on them, we furl our our brow, and
S1: now we're critically looking at them, waiting to see if
S1: there's something I can criticize. And that's what Saul did.
S1: And instead of rejoicing that God's building a team for him,
S1: Saul's jealous, and we would say he's jealous for all
S1: of the songs of the women. But more than that
S1: now his eye is fixed on David looking for all
S1: the negatives until he finally picks up the spear and
S1: throws it at him. So we've got to recognize it's
S1: going to ruin our relationships, particularly with those who have
S1: something going for them that we have less of, and
S1: we have to see it for what it is and
S1: stand back and say, I would love for for the
S1: people in my life, like my kids, to hire people
S1: on their team that do a great job. But, you know,
S1: we struggle. We struggle to see it for what it is.
S1: God is is handing out his blessing sometimes to other
S1: people in greater measure than he is with others. And
S1: we need to realize that that's just the way it is, right?
S1: God is a God who has the right to be
S1: generous with what he has. He can hand it out
S1: however he'd like and when he does. If I love
S1: those people as I ought, I should rejoice in that.
S1: I should be glad that they're doing well in their jobs.
S1: They should be glad that their marriages are good, that
S1: their kids are getting scholarships, that their son hit a
S1: home run on the Little League team. I really want
S1: to learn to rejoice with them, but that means that
S1: I've got to accept sometimes the lot that God has
S1: given me as the book of Ecclesiastes says, and say,
S1: this is what God has given me, and I'm going
S1: to rejoice in it. I'm going to enjoy what I have,
S1: and I'm going to be a good steward of what
S1: God has given me, and I'm not going to spend
S1: my time eyeing everybody else who I'm afraid is surpassing me.
S5: Do you think, Mike, this is behind what I sometimes
S5: call the criticism culture in which we live, in which,
S5: you know, we disagree with somebody. We do everything we
S5: can to discredit them, to try to get them fired
S5: from their job. I mean, it's just permeated our culture
S5: in these days. And it seems like this is this
S5: is behind all that. Yeah, absolutely.
S1: Anyone who does well and gets applause, right. You see
S1: a lot of people, they just put their spears, they
S1: sharpen their swords and they go after them online and
S1: they'll criticize them. And that is the culture we're living in.
S6: Yeah.
S5: That's interesting that you bring up God's sovereignty in this book.
S5: Why is that an important doctrine to highlight when you're
S5: talking about envy?
S8: Yeah.
S1: Well, you know, I know people that I just have
S1: had the privilege of of being friends with that just
S1: have such a mind and such a talent and such
S1: a skill that I've been working so hard in my
S1: own life to, to, to make the most of. And
S1: I think they just have it. They've got it. They've
S1: got a brain that remembers everything. They study a microphone
S1: turns on and they just speak so eloquently. I just
S1: think they've got something I don't have. And it's not
S1: that I can just work harder and have the brain
S1: that they have. And I recognize that this is just
S1: something I need to realize is about God's ultimate giving
S1: of gifts. He dispenses beauty and brains and brawn the
S1: way he wants, and there are certain things I just
S1: need to recognize instead of pouting about it, that God
S1: has given me, and he's given that person that it's
S1: just like I happen to live in a very normal
S1: neighborhood here in in Southern California. And across the street
S1: is like the nice neighborhood. I mean, it's like, I
S1: know when I say nice, I mean really nice. I'm
S1: very happy for my house. And just to exercise the
S1: principles of my book, I'm very pleased that God gave
S1: me a house. I actually have a yard. And for California,
S1: that's hard right? I can't reach my neighbor reaching out
S1: my window, which is awesome. But across the way those houses,
S1: I can see them right across the street from my backyard. Uh,
S1: they have amazing houses. Amazing. So I could look at
S1: that all day long and be just pining away to
S1: have that that experience. And what I need to do
S1: is recognize in the sovereignty of God, right? I make
S1: the money, I make, I have the abilities that I have.
S1: You know, I can qualify for the loan I can
S1: qualify for, and that's all. And and I have the house.
S1: I have ultimately, as Paul would tell the Corinthians, because
S1: God gave that to me. I've been a good steward.
S1: I think of what God has entrusted to me, but
S1: I can't. I can't do more and I can't have more.
S1: And in that that's okay, right? I'm okay. And I
S1: need to rejoice in the fact that I have a
S1: little lot here that I exercise my dominion over. I
S1: got to cut my grass, you know, I got ahead,
S1: I got to trim my bushes. I got to, you know,
S1: spray for the, you know, the insects in my yard. Right.
S1: All of that. This is my domain. And I got
S1: to say, God, thank you for this. And because the
S1: guy across the street in the big houses over there,
S1: in that big neighborhood, he can sit there and flip
S1: through magazines in the Bahamas or whatever. I said, well,
S1: look at this. Right? And everyone can play this game.
S1: Always looking up the chain. And I'm just saying it'd
S1: be good for us to say God is sovereign in
S1: giving us what he gives us. He's given me the wife.
S1: He's given me the children. He's given me the job
S1: he's given me, the opportunities, the abilities. I just need
S1: to just rejoice in that. And that really is the
S1: message of Ecclesiastes. I want to find joy in that
S1: and rejoice before God that he's given me what he has,
S1: and that really will bring the kind of contentment that
S1: allows me to work not driven by envy of my neighbor,
S1: but just out of the glory of God. How can
S1: I make the most so that God can say to
S1: me one day, I hope, well done, good and faithful servant.
S2: This is building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman. You can
S2: find out more about today's program topic at our website.
S2: Building relationships us. You'll find some great resources there. A
S2: list of seminar locations coming up for Doctor Chapman. You
S2: can hear a podcast of the program and find out
S2: about our featured resource there, which is the book by
S2: Mike envy. A big problem you didn't know you had.
S2: Just go to building relationships with us.
S5: You know, Mike, before we took the break, we were
S5: talking about God's sovereignty and giving different gifts to different people.
S5: And we need to be satisfied with the gifts God
S5: has given us. And, you know, I think at least
S5: Christians many times do think of that in terms of,
S5: you know, well, I don't have the gift of music
S5: or I don't have the gift of this or that
S5: sort of thing, you know, but when it gets to
S5: things that we purchase, you know, like you mentioned houses
S5: and all where we have a part in it, you know,
S5: it's our work and accumulating things that gives us the
S5: money to buy this house or that house. Uh, we're
S5: not quite as clear to see God's sovereignty in that
S5: area as we are in the terms of gifts or
S5: spiritual gifts. You think. You think that's true?
S8: Yeah, and that's true.
S1: And I can think about the reality of what I
S1: choose to purchase with what I have in terms of
S1: what's in my bank account. But when I'm really concerned
S1: about comparing my life and trying to keep up with
S1: the Joneses, well, then I'm always going to maximize my
S1: purchasing power on a car or a house or whatever.
S1: And I never leave room for the joy of giving
S1: and generosity. And I just think when you pull that
S1: kind of competitive spirit out of our hearts, right? We're
S1: no longer just trying to max everything out and maxing
S1: things out for myself is where I'm not really concerned
S1: I shouldn't be, at least as a Christian. It really
S1: doesn't matter, Paul says. I've learned the secret of contentment.
S1: I can have a lot. I can have a little
S1: what really I want to do right is I'd like
S1: to maximize my gifts to glorify the Lord. I like
S1: God to be pleased with not only how I take
S1: care of my yard, but how I give generously to
S1: people that are in need, or even people when they
S1: have a baby. And and I'm giving them a money
S1: for a stroller or whatever I want. I want to
S1: be a blessing to people with what I have. And
S1: if you take the element of envy out of it, right,
S1: then all of a sudden my life gets more holistic.
S1: And I'm not just trying to have something someone else has.
S6: Yeah, yeah.
S5: So so in a way, uh, envy is a disguised
S5: dissatisfaction with what God has given us. Is what I
S5: hear you saying.
S8: No, no.
S1: That's absolutely right. I mean, there is so many passages
S1: that remind us that that the appetites of our selfishness, right,
S1: are really the core of so many problems. Right? And
S1: that's why greed, that's another capital sin. I don't know
S1: if I can handle writing two books in a row
S1: on on this kind of major sin, but someone should
S1: do it. Someone listening to me should. Just a new
S1: book on the problem of greed. But it's it's really
S1: related in that I can't handle the problem of having
S1: someone near me, close to me, having those things. I've
S1: just got a police all of that. By recognizing God's
S1: good hand upon my life. And life is fleeting, right?
S1: I mean, we're going to be here just for such
S1: a short period of time. I just want to be
S1: a blessing. I want to be helpful. I want to
S1: do something good. And I can't be as helpful as
S1: other people, maybe that have a a broader platform or a,
S1: you know, a far more extensive, more extensive circle of influence.
S1: But I've got what I've got and I want to
S1: do well at that, because I'd like God to be
S1: honored by my life. And that really can't work very
S1: well if envy is just that corrosive, pining away in
S1: my heart that I'm just not happy that someone else
S1: is smarter or more beautiful, or more effective, or wealthier,
S1: or has more opportunities. I can't go there. I have
S1: to fight this.
S6: Yeah, yeah.
S5: I hope our listeners are listening. Because I think what
S5: you're saying is so, so true. Talk to parents. You
S5: say that parents can fuel the sin of envy without
S5: even knowing it. Oh, what do you mean by that?
S8: Well, I.
S1: Drew from the wisdom of an old preacher, William Law,
S1: and I just came across a passage at just the
S1: right time as I was writing this book in one
S1: of his books, and he talks to parents, and I thought,
S1: this is so this could be written today. And it
S1: was just such timeless truth about how sometimes, without even
S1: recognizing it, we're telling our kids to not just be
S1: the best they can be as stewards of what God
S1: has given them, but really just to outdo everyone else, right?
S1: We want them to get the MVP trophy on the
S1: soccer team. We want them to get the just one
S1: of the two scholarships that their school offers. We want
S1: them to. To get into the great schools that very
S1: few of their peers can get into. We create in
S1: them a really competitive spirit, and our kids start to
S1: define their their worth and their significance by whether or
S1: not they're doing better than the next guy. And William
S1: Law addresses that in old language. And I quote a
S1: little passage from his writings in my book. But I
S1: think it's so important that we don't have our kids
S1: build their identity based on how they measure up to
S1: the other kids, and that's just so hard to do.
S1: And they have classmates, they get graded, they know how
S1: the awards are passed out. And one of the ways,
S1: I think in the modern era, we've tried to cushion
S1: our kids feelings is to give everyone a trophy. Well,
S1: that's not the answer either. The answer is to teach
S1: our kids something about God's sovereignty and our stewardship. And
S1: being a parent of three now, they're all adults. But
S1: I look back and they all had different gifts and skills, right?
S1: And one of them was a great athlete, and one
S1: of them was a great scholar. And and one of
S1: them was a great conversationalist and a great friend. And
S1: I recognize I can't sit there and even have one
S1: measure of success for my own children. Well, how in
S1: the world, right can I can I raise my kids
S1: thinking they've got to outdo all the other kids in
S1: whatever they're involved in, whether it's their swim club or,
S1: you know, the chess club or whatever it is. I just,
S1: I need to have our kids put into practice the
S1: things I'm trying to say. All of us as adults,
S1: need to put into practice. When you see I'm speaking
S1: to the lady now, maybe that's listening to us and says,
S1: I'm just I'm not as fit as that gal. I'm
S1: not as pretty as that gal. My teeth are not
S1: as straight. My hair is not as good. Okay. The
S1: goal is not to say, well, you better do everything
S1: you do and get to your plastic surgeon as quick
S1: as possible so that you can outdo her. That's not
S1: the goal, right? The goal is to find the joy
S1: of God in the contentment of knowing I am who
S1: God has made me to be. By God's grace, we
S1: are who we are, and we want to find joy
S1: in that. And in our kids, it seems it's hard
S1: to do because sometimes we're living out our own quest
S1: for significance through whether our kid gets the best scholarship
S1: or goes to the best college, or hits the most
S1: home runs in a season. And we've just got to
S1: stop that. We really do. Yeah.
S5: Let's talk about how this works in church. Does envy
S5: show up in church? And if so, what does it
S5: look like?
S8: Yeah, and.
S1: Maybe that was why it was so easy for me
S1: to to really relate to what I was writing on.
S1: You know, some sermons you preach and you think a
S1: lot of people are probably struggling with this, but I'm not.
S1: But here's the thing. I just don't know any pastor,
S1: any missionary, any Bible school professor who doesn't struggle at
S1: a real profound level like every other businessman, every other
S1: housewife with the problem of envy. Right? I can't go
S1: to a pastor's conference without everyone sitting around, and they
S1: want to talk about their budgets and their buildings and
S1: how many people they have coming and how many services
S1: they're running. And there's all of this chest bumping about,
S1: you know, how we are measuring up with everyone else
S1: and we walk away feeling better. If, you know, I
S1: have the biggest church or the biggest ministry or my
S1: radio program is on the most stations, and that's the
S1: kind of thing that I realize is, is just as
S1: prevalent in ministries and churches among clergy as it is
S1: among any other segment of the society. So, you know,
S1: I write this book knowing I struggle with the same
S1: things everyone struggles with in this. It's no respecter of
S1: persons or career. And in the church, obviously it's there.
S1: You think about people at a job. I look up
S1: the street here, I can see the buildings there in
S1: Irvine up the road, and I think, okay, in those
S1: high rise buildings, I can think about these, you know,
S1: these $3,000 suit executives really being envious of one another. Well,
S1: all I have to do is go to our Bible study,
S1: our women's Bible, so I can walk into our women's
S1: Bible study today meeting this morning on our campus, and
S1: know that as they're there, they are still although they're
S1: talking about the Bible, they're talking about their prayer lives.
S1: They're talking about, you know, raising their kids for the Lord.
S1: There's all the envious kinds of temptations in our churches,
S1: as there are in any competitive atmosphere in sports or
S1: business or music or entertainment. Everyone is is struggling with this.
S1: I quote Groucho Marx, which I just think he's such
S1: a witty man in this book, and he says it. So, uh,
S1: you know, transparently how hard it was for him as
S1: a comedian to hear other comedians get the roar of
S1: the audience. And I think that's the same way. Right?
S1: It's the same I, I, we struggle with someone across town.
S1: I'm speaking now autobiographically as a pastor, when his church
S1: is growing and making a bigger impact in our community
S1: than mine. And I think, why is that a problem?
S1: Why can't I rejoice in that? Right? If Groucho Marx,
S1: his life is given to making people laugh, how great
S1: that he has other people that that make people laugh,
S1: but he can't, and he struggles, and he admits that
S1: he struggles and pastors can, and women and a women's
S1: Bible study can. If we just are honest enough with
S1: ourselves to ask ourselves, why do we have these resentful
S1: feelings when someone says something that really is reflecting something
S1: I would like to be able to say, but I
S1: can't say they have something I don't have. They possess
S1: a talent, a beauty, a skill that I don't have.
S1: And that's where we need to police our hearts and
S1: learn to love one another the way Jesus taught us to.
S1: But it's just a lot harder than we first think.
S6: Yeah.
S5: Because in the church also, it's the whole diversity of
S5: the body, right? I mean, different parts of the body,
S5: you know, that are illustrated in first Corinthians 13. And
S5: we're not all eyes. We're not all hands. You know,
S5: we all have different roles to play in, in the
S5: local church. So.
S8: Right.
S1: And what does Paul say there? He says all of
S1: them are important, right? We have to have an equal
S1: concern for every part. And yet we don't. It's the
S1: one who gets the solo at the Christmas musical. Right?
S1: We've got to change our thinking.
S5: Mike. Why is envy so much easier to see in
S5: other people than to see in her own heart?
S1: Well, it's the same reason it's easier to see pride
S1: in other people than it is in my own heart.
S1: Same reason it's easy to see any error, right? Romans
S1: chapter two is a classic text that says, we are
S1: so good at seeing sin in other people, it's really
S1: hard to turn it around. You know, I live in
S1: the midst of a lot of freeways here, and when
S1: someone merges into my lane and almost clips my front bumper,
S1: you know, I'm quick to say all the things as
S1: to why they shouldn't have a license. What's wrong with
S1: these people? Uh, you know, this guy can't drive. But
S1: when I accidentally drift into someone's lane coming onto the
S1: freeway and I go, oh, I'm sorry. You know, I
S1: was distracted. I didn't see you. And I justify myself
S1: so quickly with a bad lane change. And I belittle
S1: and criticize so harshly, so quickly. When someone has a
S1: bad lane change into my lane. And all I'm saying
S1: is that's just natural, sinful, uh, kind of self-preservation that
S1: we have as people that that are quick to find
S1: the problems in other people without any sympathy, right, without
S1: any sense of what they might be going through. Right.
S1: And so quick to exonerate ourselves with a lot of
S1: justification and rationalization for why I have the bitterness I
S1: have toward someone to get back to our topic. Right?
S1: Why do I criticize that coworker? Why is Saul criticizing
S1: David Wright? Why is it that the Pharisees were criticizing Jesus?
S1: Even Pilate could see it because they were envious of him.
S1: That was the problem. And so we have to recognize
S1: that we are people that are great with our with
S1: our sin meter as it was put in other people's lives.
S1: But that's why we must reflect the Word of God
S1: in our own personal lives every single day. We've got
S1: to open up the Bibles and our Bibles and say, God,
S1: here is the Word of God. I want to look
S1: into the mirror of God's Word and be able to
S1: find freedom and the freedom is that when I see
S1: something out of place, by God's grace, and with his help,
S1: I can make the necessary corrections so that I don't
S1: have this same problem tomorrow. And we just need that
S1: time with the mirror of God's Word.
S6: Yeah, well.
S5: Well, you say that envy thrives among peers. Uh, in
S5: what ways do you see that?
S1: Yeah. And that was a great line from one of
S1: the very few Christian books I could find published recently.
S1: Tillie Delahaye wrote it for harvest House, and she just said,
S1: it's it's a it is a sin nearby. It really is.
S1: I don't sit here and think, you know, Brad Pitt.
S1: I'm just so I'm bitter toward him. I can't believe
S1: he's driving that Ferrari and lives in that big house
S1: in Bel Air. I don't have those feelings. I may
S1: I may covet, you know, his Ferrari, but I don't.
S1: I don't envy him. Right. It's the guy nearby. It's
S1: it's it's Cain and Abel. It's it's the Pharisees and
S1: Jesus who are trying to talk to the same people,
S1: but they're all running off to hear Jesus and not
S1: the Pharisees. It's someone in my sphere of influence. It's
S1: someone I'm rubbing shoulders with or looking at across the way.
S1: It is easier for me to envy a guy here
S1: locally who's doing what I do and doing it better
S1: than it is for someone on the East Coast. See,
S1: it just it's always a sin nearby, because those are
S1: the people that affect the kinds of affections or the the,
S1: the leveraging of opportunities that I feel like are right
S1: within my grasp. Why can't I do that? Why can't
S1: I have that? It's someone in my field. It's someone
S1: in my career. It's someone in my, you know, my
S1: my my discipline. And so that's what we need to
S1: watch out for. And if we think it's just, well,
S1: I could envy anybody. Well, that's that's not true. I mean,
S1: I guess you could if you're a strange personality, but
S1: most of our personalities, it's always going to be someone
S1: close by. It's someone in my church, it's someone in
S1: my career. And that's where we need to police our
S1: hearts the most.
S6: Yeah.
S5: So perhaps one of our listeners might be thinking, or
S5: more than, more than one of our listeners might be thinking, okay, okay,
S5: I see that I need to deal with envy. Okay. But, uh,
S5: seeing it is a good step. But how how do
S5: I get to the root of this? How do I
S5: how do I deal with this?
S8: Yeah. Well, I.
S1: I wrote this book knowing that a lot of people, um,
S1: they basically want simple answers. And so from the very
S1: first paragraph, I try to make it clear that the
S1: Christian life is going to be a battle. It's going
S1: to be tough. I have passions that are waging war
S1: against my soul. At the end of Paul's life, he
S1: could say, I. I fought the good fight. I just
S1: think we need to be a little bit more militaristic
S1: in our thinking, as Jesus taught us to about sin.
S1: He said, if your hands causing you to sin, cut
S1: it off and cast it from you. I understand that's
S1: that's hyperbole, but there's a truth in that, which is,
S1: are we doing all that we can to to quote
S1: Hebrews chapter 12, he says, you haven't yet even shed
S1: blood in your striving against sin. And I'm just saying,
S1: as Colossians three five says, to put to death the
S1: things that are fleshly or earthly in me is going
S1: to mean that I start to be a little bit
S1: more ruthless about things that don't belong in my heart.
S1: And I think we we really have kid gloved. So
S1: many things that we identify, particularly if it's not something
S1: so immediately explosive and destructive, it's envious. You see, that
S1: seems like, ah, it's it's a fly in the ointment,
S1: but whatever. Maybe I can just work around it. We
S1: need to wage war against it. And that's a militant
S1: motif that may not be that popular these days, but
S1: I don't think when we get before the Lord at
S1: the beam of judgment and he he evaluates us as
S1: his servants, if he's going to be all that sympathetic
S1: to our mild approach to the sin in our life.
S1: I think he's going to say, why did you not
S1: really get to work, roll up your sleeves and say,
S1: this is going to be something you deal with. And
S1: I think one of the ways is you get a partner,
S1: you get a Bible study partner. You say, I'm dealing
S1: with envy. I'm reading this book on envy. I want
S1: to put it to death. I want to come and
S1: talk about it once a week and confess this to you.
S1: I want to make sure that my heart learns to
S1: love my coworkers and my competitors, and not see them
S1: as as rivals. I want to stop scrolling through Facebook
S1: just so that I can feel like I don't have
S1: what I want in my life, and that person has it,
S1: but they don't deserve it. We have to be. We
S1: have to put it on the table first with God.
S1: And we've talked about that in Psalm 139, giving God
S1: that open door to look and convict us. But then
S1: I think we need to take the steps that are
S1: laid out in the second half of the book, and
S1: we need to do it with someone that I think
S1: we're willing to be completely honest with. Right? If you're
S1: a guy at a church, pick a guy friend that
S1: that's going to help you stay accountable for this particular sin.
S1: We we do that with other sins, but we we
S1: haven't really done it with this sin. And it causes
S1: just as much trouble is just about any other sin.
S1: So we might as well put that one on the
S1: table and on the list of accountability to discuss once
S1: a week with a good Christian friend.
S6: Yeah.
S5: Excellent suggestion. I was thinking the prayer. You know, we
S5: mentioned you mentioned Psalm 139. One way to say that
S5: is God, show me. Help me see myself as you
S5: see me. God, I think I think you sit there
S5: having asked God that kind of question. God will help
S5: you see yourself as he sees you. I know early
S5: in with our kids, I used to ask myself, what
S5: if my kids turn out to be like me? And, uh,
S5: I made some significant changes in my life after asking
S5: that question. You know what if what if all God's
S5: children were like me, you know? So you talk also
S5: about love, which is a word that I like. Yeah.
S5: So how is love the solution to much of what
S5: you write about in this book?
S8: Yeah. Well, you talk about kids.
S1: I just think.
S8: That's a good.
S1: Example. In God's grace, he instills a kind of love
S1: in our hearts for our children. And I happen to
S1: have two grown sons. They both went into the pastorate,
S1: and I didn't expect that, nor ask them or push
S1: them in that direction. But they're both doing what I'm
S1: doing every week. And because of this God given wonderful
S1: gift of of love for those kids, I love them.
S1: Before they could do anything but soiled their diapers and
S1: cry and ask to be fed. Uh, that that kind
S1: of of gracious love that God gives for a parent.
S1: I've always wanted them to have advantages I didn't have.
S1: I always wanted them to go further than I could go.
S1: I just naturally want them to do better than me.
S1: And so now that they're in my career and they're
S1: doing the work I have been trained to do, and
S1: they're getting their degrees and and they're doing all the
S1: work that I do, I have no trouble when I
S1: hear that their ministries are growing or that more people,
S1: because of their evangelism, are coming to Christ, or because
S1: they've written something that has made a difference in someone's life,
S1: I rejoice in that so naturally, and I would just
S1: love to see them do so much more than me.
S1: And I think to myself, why is that? It's because
S1: I really love them. I don't love them perfectly, but
S1: I sure love them better than I love the guy
S1: in the office next to me right here. And I've
S1: got to say, God, I really want to learn to
S1: love the other people around me as your children, right? Like,
S1: I love my children, and I know you want your
S1: children to do well. The guy in the office next
S1: to me, God, you want his marriage to be good.
S1: You want his children to do well. You want his
S1: his his writings and his preaching and his studying to
S1: be so good this week. You love him with a
S1: kind of love that I don't have yet, but please
S1: give me that love for them as your children, the
S1: way I love my children. And that would be without
S1: any reservation. Please God, let them do better than I'm doing.
S1: I have no trouble with that. I want them to excel,
S1: and I think that is a good measure of love.
S1: And then it gets me back to that great verse, right?
S1: Love does not envy. Of course it doesn't. Right. But
S1: I don't love people well enough. And I want God
S1: to give me that love. Yeah.
S5: And Romans chapter five and verse five says, the love
S5: of God is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
S5: So if we ask him to help us see our
S5: neighbors as he sees them, and to wish and want
S5: the best for them, uh, we're less likely to be
S5: envious of where they are.
S8: That's right.
S5: Well, Mike, let me, uh, let me thank you for
S5: being with us today. And let me thank you for
S5: taking time to write this book, because I think your
S5: title is pretty much accurate. We don't it's it's not
S5: something we have a felt need about us, you know,
S5: and I think it's going to open the eyes of
S5: anyone who reads it. And I want to encourage our
S5: listeners to read this book. I think you're going to
S5: find it helpful. So God bless you and your ministry
S5: and continue to be sensitive to what God brings in
S5: your mind, not only to preach, but what to put
S5: in book form. So God bless you. Well thank.
S8: You Gary, it's been great to be with you.
S1: Today, and I do hope the book becomes a.
S8: Helpful tool in God's hands in.
S1: Many lives.
S3: Yeah, it might be something you can go through together
S3: in your small group a Sunday school class that might
S3: be helpful. Look for it. It's titled envy. A big
S3: problem You Didn't Know You Had, written by Mike Fabares.
S3: You can find out more about that book and him
S3: at our website. Building relationships.us again. Go to Building relationships.us.
S5: And next week 12 qualities to help you build a healthy, strong,
S5: God honoring family.
S2: Hear about inconvenient parenting in one week. Well, a big
S2: thank you to our production team of Steve Wick and Janice.
S2: Backing building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production
S2: of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry
S2: of Moody Bible Institute.
UU: Thanks for listening.