1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,600 S1: Welcome to our December 1st edition of Chris Fabry Live! 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,880 S1: The program from the heart to the heart for the heart. 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:13,560 S1: Have you heard anyone say something like this? I don't 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,360 S1: trust Christians. They're all a bunch of hypocrites. God never 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,799 S1: answers my prayers. I think I'm going to give up. 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,400 S1: My suffering is too much. I can't trust God here 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,520 S1: in this place. Or I'm done with the church. I'm 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,159 S1: done with my faith. If you have heard that, or 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,280 S1: maybe you've said that, or you're thinking about it right now, 10 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,400 S1: I want you to hear from our guest today at 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:43,599 S1: the Radio Backyard Fence. The buzzword is deconstructing, but that 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,240 S1: mainly is a term we use to describe some really 13 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,760 S1: difficult life situations and our reaction to them. So if 14 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,120 S1: you have someone you care about who's going through doubts 15 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,520 S1: and deep waters, if that's where you are, don't miss 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,300 S1: the conversation today at the Radio Backyard Fence. Our program 17 00:01:00,300 --> 00:01:03,900 S1: is recorded. Don't call us live. Today I do want 18 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:06,660 S1: to thank our team. Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. 19 00:01:06,700 --> 00:01:09,620 S1: Trish is our producer. Chris Sigurd is sitting in with 20 00:01:09,620 --> 00:01:12,140 S1: us today as well and helped out with the program. 21 00:01:12,459 --> 00:01:16,500 S1: And since this is December, the first 25 minus one 22 00:01:16,500 --> 00:01:20,820 S1: equals 24, we are 24 days away from Christmas. Can 23 00:01:20,819 --> 00:01:23,539 S1: you believe that? A little more than three weeks, and 24 00:01:23,540 --> 00:01:26,060 S1: this time is so much more than Jingle bells and 25 00:01:26,060 --> 00:01:30,179 S1: shopping lists. I chose a resource for anyone who supports 26 00:01:30,180 --> 00:01:33,819 S1: us this month that will pay dividends for years to come. 27 00:01:33,819 --> 00:01:36,940 S1: It'll help you reclaim the heart of this season. Hosanna 28 00:01:36,940 --> 00:01:41,260 S1: in excelsis is a beautiful book by David and Barbara Lehman. 29 00:01:41,260 --> 00:01:44,179 S1: We've talked with them here before. It takes you on 30 00:01:44,180 --> 00:01:47,700 S1: a 43 day journey through the hymns that have celebrated 31 00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:51,340 S1: the birth of Jesus, and those hymns go way back 32 00:01:51,340 --> 00:01:56,260 S1: for generations. Let these time tested songs draw your family 33 00:01:56,260 --> 00:01:59,800 S1: and your heart closer to the true meaning of Christmas 34 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,880 S1: this year and for years to come. Request a copy 35 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,680 S1: when you call with a gift of any amount. 86695 36 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,960 S1: Fabry is the number. You can use that number even 37 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:16,280 S1: though we're recorded today. (866) 953-2279 or give online at Chris. 38 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:24,399 S1: Chris Fabry. Courtney Reissig is an author and Bible teacher 39 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,200 S1: living in little Rock, Arkansas. She's the author of a 40 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,120 S1: number of books and Bible studies, including Teach Me to 41 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,280 S1: Feel worshiping through the Psalms in every season of life. 42 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,760 S1: She's passionate about teaching the Bible and helping women see 43 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,880 S1: the great value God's Word has in their everyday lives. 44 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,120 S1: She's married to Daniel, mom to four boys. Courtney, welcome 45 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:47,000 S1: to the program. 46 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:49,560 S2: Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here. 47 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,919 S1: You also teach school there in little Rock. Is that right? 48 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,440 S2: I do, I'm a high school English teacher. 49 00:02:56,660 --> 00:02:59,820 S1: Really? Yes. Is that what when you were a little girl? 50 00:02:59,820 --> 00:03:01,300 S1: Is that what you wanted to be? A high school 51 00:03:01,300 --> 00:03:02,139 S1: English teacher? 52 00:03:02,780 --> 00:03:05,940 S2: I wanted to be a teacher. And so it's kind 53 00:03:05,940 --> 00:03:08,459 S2: of a funny story. I wanted to be a teacher. Uh, 54 00:03:08,460 --> 00:03:10,660 S2: I probably I played school as a kid all the 55 00:03:10,660 --> 00:03:13,940 S2: way through. I was in a teacher prep program for, like, 56 00:03:14,380 --> 00:03:16,020 S2: in my senior year of high school. You could go 57 00:03:16,020 --> 00:03:18,540 S2: to an elementary school and shadow a teacher. So I 58 00:03:18,540 --> 00:03:21,260 S2: was a part of this program. And then I went 59 00:03:21,260 --> 00:03:22,940 S2: to college, and I went to school for writing, and 60 00:03:22,940 --> 00:03:25,620 S2: I ended up going into vocational ministry. But in the 61 00:03:25,620 --> 00:03:27,340 S2: back of my mind, I always wanted to be a teacher. 62 00:03:27,340 --> 00:03:29,739 S2: So I taught before I had kids for a couple 63 00:03:29,780 --> 00:03:31,660 S2: of years, and then I was in vocational ministry in 64 00:03:31,660 --> 00:03:33,660 S2: a local church for a number of years. And then 65 00:03:34,020 --> 00:03:38,460 S2: after after that, um, ended, I thought, I really just 66 00:03:38,460 --> 00:03:40,140 S2: want to be a teacher. So I've been doing that 67 00:03:40,140 --> 00:03:41,340 S2: for a couple of years now. 68 00:03:42,340 --> 00:03:45,220 S1: What is your favorite thing about being an English teacher 69 00:03:45,220 --> 00:03:46,700 S1: to high schoolers? 70 00:03:47,900 --> 00:03:50,300 S2: Oh, there's so many things I love about it. Um, 71 00:03:50,340 --> 00:03:53,300 S2: I it's hard to pick. I love my students, but 72 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:58,400 S2: I really do think I love seeing Students who didn't 73 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,320 S2: maybe understand how to read something before, see the light 74 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,800 S2: bulbs go off, and them being able to identify parts 75 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,840 S2: of a story or main idea or annotate something. And 76 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,160 S2: I think a lot of that love for that comes 77 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,839 S2: from also that I was a Bible teacher and am 78 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,560 S2: a Bible teacher, but I taught this to adults in 79 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,280 S2: local church ministry for years. And so I saw I 80 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,080 S2: loved seeing the light bulb go off with the scriptures 81 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,040 S2: coming alive. And what I've been really struck by in 82 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,520 S2: teaching high school English is that if people don't know 83 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,280 S2: how to read for themselves, then they won't be able 84 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:32,960 S2: to read the Bible for themselves. And so I do 85 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,880 S2: feel like this is a precursor to love. I love 86 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,479 S2: biblical literacy, but I also love literacy as a whole. 87 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,279 S2: So I really also love building relationships with kids, helping 88 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,120 S2: them see that they have potential and that they can 89 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,840 S2: learn and they can grow and um, and that they 90 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:47,720 S2: can do really great things. I think a lot of 91 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,200 S2: people have a lot of negative things to say about 92 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,719 S2: the next generation of kids, but I think that there's 93 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,380 S2: a lot of really great things about them. They're really insightful. 94 00:04:55,380 --> 00:04:57,940 S2: They have an understanding of the human experience and people, 95 00:04:57,940 --> 00:04:59,779 S2: and I think they're really great. 96 00:05:00,060 --> 00:05:02,300 S1: And they've been through so much in the last few years, 97 00:05:02,300 --> 00:05:05,740 S1: especially with Covid and all that. They've been through their, uh, 98 00:05:06,300 --> 00:05:08,540 S1: you know, what happened right there, Courtney? What happened right 99 00:05:08,540 --> 00:05:10,740 S1: there was you came alive. When you start talking about 100 00:05:10,740 --> 00:05:14,420 S1: your your high school kids, you know, um, you came 101 00:05:14,420 --> 00:05:16,980 S1: alive there. And that's when you find something that makes 102 00:05:16,980 --> 00:05:19,300 S1: you come alive like that. That's gold, isn't it? 103 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:22,300 S2: It is. It really is. And I mean, it's hard work. 104 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:24,820 S2: It's exhausting work. I have I have students that have 105 00:05:24,820 --> 00:05:27,660 S2: a lot of needs. They teach me so much, and 106 00:05:27,660 --> 00:05:30,500 S2: they really do bring joy to my life every day, 107 00:05:30,500 --> 00:05:31,660 S2: even on the hard days. 108 00:05:32,500 --> 00:05:35,020 S1: I wanted to find out about that, because you have 109 00:05:35,020 --> 00:05:37,820 S1: been hard for me to schedule this book that you've written. 110 00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:41,300 S1: Someone to believe in embracing the Savior who stays the 111 00:05:41,300 --> 00:05:44,260 S1: same when everything else changes. You've been hard to get 112 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:47,380 S1: on the program because you can't be on live with 113 00:05:47,380 --> 00:05:50,460 S1: us because you're teaching and you're committed to that, you know? 114 00:05:50,500 --> 00:05:53,920 S1: And so as we're recording this, you know, This is Monday, 115 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,600 S1: December 1st. But last week before Thanksgiving you had a 116 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,039 S1: day off, so you had time to have the conversation, right? 117 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,680 S2: Right, right. And it's been really, uh, it's been challenging. 118 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,960 S2: And so I've tried to schedule it during my prep time, 119 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,240 S2: but then sometimes I'll have, uh, like a meeting come 120 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:11,840 S2: up for a student or things like that. So I 121 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:13,680 S2: haven't been able to do it. So I'm thankful that 122 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,760 S2: you still wanted me on in spite of my scheduling challenges. 123 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:21,080 S1: Oh, yes. Well, I saw the. It's a beautiful book, and, 124 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,000 S1: you know, the green color just kind of pops. And 125 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,320 S1: there's the little lamb on there. Um, but the the, 126 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,120 S1: the thing behind it, I just find so many people 127 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,039 S1: who are struggling with exactly what you're talking about. So 128 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,600 S1: let's let's jump into that, talk about some of the 129 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,400 S1: struggles you see that people are going through that caused 130 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,320 S1: them to deconstruct or kind of draw them toward that 131 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:45,920 S1: de-churched path. 132 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,080 S2: I think there are many things that would lead someone 133 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,060 S2: to to De-churched. I think there is a there's a 134 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:55,060 S2: book that came out a couple of years ago called 135 00:06:55,060 --> 00:06:58,620 S2: The Great Ditching, which I thought was phenomenal. And before 136 00:06:58,620 --> 00:07:01,820 S2: I read the book, I assumed that the book would 137 00:07:01,820 --> 00:07:05,060 S2: deal with the things that we typically view as leading 138 00:07:05,060 --> 00:07:09,140 S2: people to deconstruct, like church hurt or, uh, walking through 139 00:07:09,140 --> 00:07:11,300 S2: a crisis of faith or walking through suffering. And those 140 00:07:11,300 --> 00:07:14,300 S2: are all real things that keep people that make people 141 00:07:14,300 --> 00:07:17,580 S2: walk away. But then there's also this casual ditching where 142 00:07:17,580 --> 00:07:21,020 S2: people it's what they their term for, it is you 143 00:07:21,020 --> 00:07:23,700 S2: just kind of stopped going. And then over time you 144 00:07:23,700 --> 00:07:26,780 S2: just kind of walked away. And so I think there's 145 00:07:26,780 --> 00:07:29,020 S2: a number of things. There is a there's a comfort 146 00:07:29,020 --> 00:07:31,940 S2: in life that leads people to deconstruct and d church 147 00:07:31,940 --> 00:07:34,660 S2: where life is just comfortable. And I'd rather sleep in 148 00:07:34,660 --> 00:07:37,380 S2: on Sunday morning than go to church, or I'd rather 149 00:07:37,380 --> 00:07:41,460 S2: sleep in, or I'd rather, uh, do CrossFit right, than 150 00:07:41,460 --> 00:07:44,820 S2: than read my Bible. There's also a D churching or 151 00:07:44,820 --> 00:07:47,980 S2: deconstruction that comes in what we're probably more familiar with, 152 00:07:47,980 --> 00:07:50,460 S2: and what we've seen more of in recent years is 153 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:55,000 S2: a deconstruction that comes from, uh, hurt. So the people 154 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,440 S2: that we we trusted in the church, they've hurt us. 155 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,240 S2: Whether it's through, uh, abusive pastors of just, like, abusing 156 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,320 S2: their authority, whether it's through, uh, the sex abuse crisis 157 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,680 S2: that we see in so many denominations. Um, we see 158 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,040 S2: it through, um, just like moral failings of pastors. So 159 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,920 S2: a pastor, uh, he either walks away from the faith 160 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,840 S2: or he has an affair with his secretary, which is 161 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,120 S2: incredibly cliche, but it happens all the time. And so 162 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,440 S2: I think those are the things that make people say, 163 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,880 S2: if the person who is preaching God's word to me 164 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,760 S2: can't be trusted, then God can't be trusted. We make 165 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,600 S2: that logical leap of if this, then this. I think 166 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,959 S2: there's also the deconstruction that happens from prolonged suffering. So 167 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,800 S2: when someone has a lifelong illness or their child has 168 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,679 S2: a lifelong illness and they feel like their prayers are 169 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:48,320 S2: going unanswered, um, that leads people to walk away. Because 170 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,699 S2: how do you trust a God? Who, who who says 171 00:08:51,700 --> 00:08:54,179 S2: he's a good father and yet he's giving me. He 172 00:08:54,220 --> 00:08:55,780 S2: says he won't give me a snake when I ask 173 00:08:55,780 --> 00:08:57,699 S2: for bread. And all I'm getting are snakes. 174 00:08:57,740 --> 00:08:58,180 S1: Yes. 175 00:08:58,220 --> 00:09:00,740 S2: So I think. Right. I mean, that's like those are 176 00:09:00,740 --> 00:09:04,340 S2: things that and that I think is those are hard 177 00:09:04,340 --> 00:09:07,260 S2: questions to reconcile. Or like, you see someone who's in 178 00:09:07,260 --> 00:09:11,100 S2: in extreme poverty and living in, in a context where 179 00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:13,580 S2: all they see are lost and all they see are violence, 180 00:09:13,580 --> 00:09:16,300 S2: and all they see are difficulty, and they pray for peace. 181 00:09:16,340 --> 00:09:19,700 S2: Year after year after year. And they don't have it. 182 00:09:19,940 --> 00:09:22,140 S2: How do you trust a God who doesn't provide that? 183 00:09:22,540 --> 00:09:24,540 S2: And those are the things that I hope to wrestle 184 00:09:24,540 --> 00:09:27,900 S2: with in the book, is that there's a suffering and 185 00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:31,260 S2: a difficulty that leads people to say, God can't be trusted. 186 00:09:31,260 --> 00:09:33,420 S2: And I think in the Gospel of John, John presents 187 00:09:33,460 --> 00:09:35,700 S2: a Savior who's worth believing in. And I think the 188 00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:37,580 S2: reason why, of all the gospel writers, John, is the 189 00:09:37,580 --> 00:09:40,459 S2: most compelling in this regard when it comes to wanting 190 00:09:40,500 --> 00:09:42,939 S2: to walk away, is because John's writing at the end 191 00:09:42,940 --> 00:09:45,339 S2: of his life. So he has seen all of it. 192 00:09:45,380 --> 00:09:47,700 S2: He's seen all of the suffering. He's seen all the difficulties. 193 00:09:47,700 --> 00:09:50,080 S2: He's seen and all the people fail and walk away, 194 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,560 S2: and all the things that would lead people to not 195 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,480 S2: want to believe. And yet he tells us he is 196 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,400 S2: someone worth believing in. And I think we all need that. 197 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,160 S2: I think we feel in our moment right now, we 198 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,640 S2: probably need it more than ever. But every every generation 199 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,920 S2: has needed this reminder that Jesus is someone worth believing in. 200 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:12,640 S1: Someone to believe in. That's our featured resource, embracing the 201 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,800 S1: Savior who stays the same when everything else changes. Is 202 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,160 S1: that what you're experiencing in your life? A shifting sand, 203 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:25,520 S1: everything that's going on, a relationship, a diagnosis. Courtney Reisig 204 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,160 S1: has been there, and she shares about her life and 205 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,199 S1: other people that she's met along the along the trail. 206 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:33,800 S1: And so we're going to tell some of those stories today. 207 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,679 S1: I think it'll be encouraging to you if you feel 208 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,920 S1: like you've experienced that casual ditching, you just kind of 209 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,480 S1: walked away and then didn't go back. And and you're 210 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,260 S1: missing your home in some ways. But you're afraid because 211 00:10:48,260 --> 00:10:51,220 S1: of those snakes that she was just talking about. I 212 00:10:51,220 --> 00:10:54,180 S1: want you to keep listening. This is Chris Fabry live online. 213 00:10:54,179 --> 00:11:08,900 S1: Chris Fabry, Livorno. Chris Fabry, Livorno. Our guest today at 214 00:11:08,900 --> 00:11:11,780 S1: the radio backyard Fence is Courtney Risk. I've been saying 215 00:11:11,780 --> 00:11:14,819 S1: her name incorrectly. It's not with that hard g r 216 00:11:14,820 --> 00:11:17,620 S1: e I s g. It's it's a c k sound. 217 00:11:17,620 --> 00:11:20,540 S1: So Courtney risk. Well, there'll be a test at the 218 00:11:20,540 --> 00:11:24,500 S1: end of the program today. The featured resources. Someone to 219 00:11:24,540 --> 00:11:28,340 S1: believe in. Doesn't that sound good? Embracing the Savior who 220 00:11:28,380 --> 00:11:32,059 S1: stays the same when everything else changes. It's our featured 221 00:11:32,059 --> 00:11:38,180 S1: resource at Chris Fabry Livorno. Chris Livorno. Okay, I want 222 00:11:38,179 --> 00:11:40,780 S1: you to take us into your personal story now because 223 00:11:40,780 --> 00:11:42,860 S1: you tell a lot of stories of people that you've 224 00:11:42,860 --> 00:11:45,920 S1: known or women that you've had coffee with and they 225 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,840 S1: told you their stories. And those are very compelling. As 226 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,640 S1: you go through the book of John and talk about 227 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:56,880 S1: Jesus past, present and future. But on page 21, you write, 228 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:01,079 S1: I was diagnosed with cancer in April 2020, which means 229 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,920 S1: I was diagnosed with cancer just as the entire world 230 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,960 S1: was shutting down. Take me into that and the struggle there. 231 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,840 S2: Yes. So I was diagnosed with cervical cancer. It was 232 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:17,400 S2: a super unexpected. And if you're familiar with cervical cancer, 233 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,280 S2: it comes from the HPV virus. And the way it 234 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,360 S2: works is it's a it's a 20 year process apparently. 235 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,319 S2: And so it takes about 20 years for it to 236 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,160 S2: become cancer. Typically we have systems to protect against that. 237 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,600 S2: We have tests that women get every year that kind 238 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,240 S2: of let you know things are happening so that it 239 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,360 S2: never becomes cancer. So all those tests failed for me, apparently. 240 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,480 S2: So I was I was unaware that I had gotten 241 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,600 S2: HPV 20 years prior, until two weeks before I was 242 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,460 S2: diagnosed with cervical cancer. So it was kind of like 243 00:12:46,500 --> 00:12:49,579 S2: a complete shock to the system. I mean, I've been 244 00:12:49,580 --> 00:12:53,460 S2: married for like 14 years up to that point, and 245 00:12:53,460 --> 00:12:56,500 S2: so I dealt with the typical fear that you would 246 00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:59,579 S2: have when you are diagnosed with cancer, largely because it 247 00:12:59,580 --> 00:13:04,500 S2: was so shocking and so unexpected and so hidden when 248 00:13:04,500 --> 00:13:06,340 S2: it typically isn't hidden, that there was a lot of 249 00:13:06,340 --> 00:13:09,020 S2: fear that it had spread much farther than they realized. 250 00:13:09,740 --> 00:13:11,220 S2: And so I had a lot of fear. My kids 251 00:13:11,220 --> 00:13:12,540 S2: were really young, but then I also had a lot 252 00:13:12,540 --> 00:13:15,140 S2: of shame because HPV is a sexually transmitted disease. And 253 00:13:15,140 --> 00:13:17,860 S2: so I'd gotten it before I became a believer. Apparently 254 00:13:17,860 --> 00:13:19,660 S2: we didn't know when I'd gotten it because I had 255 00:13:19,660 --> 00:13:22,420 S2: never been diagnosed with it before. It's kind of a 256 00:13:22,460 --> 00:13:26,179 S2: hidden virus. It doesn't show up until it starts causing cancer. 257 00:13:26,460 --> 00:13:29,260 S2: And so it was a lot of shame and a 258 00:13:29,260 --> 00:13:31,900 S2: lot of and at this point, like my my fourth 259 00:13:31,900 --> 00:13:33,699 S2: book had just come out. So like, it wasn't like 260 00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:36,860 S2: I was like I was in public ministry. I was 261 00:13:36,860 --> 00:13:40,459 S2: serving in a church and now I have to be like, 262 00:13:40,500 --> 00:13:43,320 S2: I have cervical cancer because I had HPV. So the 263 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,040 S2: Lord really used that to help me work through that 264 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,680 S2: shame that I didn't know I still had for past 265 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,520 S2: sin that had been paid for. But then also, the 266 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,440 S2: Lord really used it to show me his presence with 267 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,360 S2: me because it was during Covid. I had to go 268 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,960 S2: through all of my treatment and all of my surgeries 269 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,600 S2: by myself. So my husband this is early on when 270 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,360 S2: people weren't even allowed in the hospital, so my husband 271 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,880 S2: couldn't come inside the hospital with me. So I had 272 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:10,000 S2: a hysterectomy, a full hysterectomy without him there. And that 273 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,199 S2: was just really it was hard on both of us. 274 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,079 S2: And I remember sitting in a room when I was 275 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,240 S2: getting a Pet scan, and I write about this in 276 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,520 S2: the book, where I had this overwhelming sense of the 277 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,480 S2: Lord's presence with me, and the reminder of John in 278 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,480 S2: John 14, where Jesus is telling the disciples, I'm about 279 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,440 S2: to leave you. And they can't fathom that because he's 280 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,080 S2: been with them and he tells them, I'm going to 281 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,880 S2: leave you, but I won't leave you as orphans. I 282 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,880 S2: will come to you. And his way of coming to 283 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,480 S2: them is the promise of the Holy Spirit that it 284 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,280 S2: won't just be his bodily presence with him. It will 285 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,980 S2: be his his presence with them always. It can never 286 00:14:42,020 --> 00:14:45,220 S2: be taken from them. And that's the same promise we have, 287 00:14:45,260 --> 00:14:46,940 S2: is that we have the presence of the Holy Spirit 288 00:14:46,940 --> 00:14:49,540 S2: with us at all times. So when my husband can't 289 00:14:49,540 --> 00:14:52,020 S2: be there in the room, the spirit is with me, 290 00:14:52,060 --> 00:14:54,780 S2: comforting me and bringing Scripture to mind. And I, I 291 00:14:54,940 --> 00:14:58,460 S2: sense that presence. I'm not a super charismatic person. Um, 292 00:14:58,500 --> 00:15:00,820 S2: that's not that's not the theological bent that I have, 293 00:15:00,860 --> 00:15:03,380 S2: but I sense the Lord's presence in those moments in 294 00:15:03,380 --> 00:15:06,140 S2: a way that I never had experienced before, and I 295 00:15:06,140 --> 00:15:10,300 S2: haven't since. That's a comfort for people when not only 296 00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:13,220 S2: do you have the shame of past sin, but then 297 00:15:13,260 --> 00:15:15,540 S2: you have the comfort of his presence, is that you've 298 00:15:15,540 --> 00:15:18,540 S2: been forgiven and now he's with you even when you're 299 00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:21,500 S2: going through hard things. And I write about this in 300 00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:23,820 S2: the book with the story of the woman at the well, 301 00:15:23,860 --> 00:15:26,100 S2: and by all accounts, the reason why she would go 302 00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:29,460 S2: in the middle of the day to draw water, which 303 00:15:29,460 --> 00:15:31,220 S2: is the heat of the day, no women didn't do 304 00:15:31,220 --> 00:15:33,740 S2: that was because of the shame associated with her life. 305 00:15:33,940 --> 00:15:38,660 S2: And yet Jesus goes and meets her there, and that's 306 00:15:38,660 --> 00:15:41,440 S2: the kind of Savior he is. He's coming to us, 307 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,160 S2: and he's not afraid to reveal all our past sins 308 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,960 S2: to us, which is what he did for her, but 309 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,240 S2: then also says, go and tell. Go and tell the 310 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,240 S2: whole village that I that what I've done for you. 311 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,680 S2: And this is what she did. And it's the longest 312 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,160 S2: recorded conversation in the Gospel of John. And it happens 313 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,800 S2: to be with a woman who is ethnically unclean and 314 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,440 S2: spiritually unclean. And yet Jesus exposes her life and then 315 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,680 S2: redeems her life. And I think there's a lot of 316 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,160 S2: comfort there for people who feel like maybe their past 317 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,400 S2: sins can't be spoken of in polite company, their past 318 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,440 S2: lives can't be spoken of in the church. And Jesus 319 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,720 S2: is unafraid of that because there's no sin that is 320 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,120 S2: too great that he's not greater still to forgive. 321 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,880 S1: Him so much. I want to unpack from what you 322 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,720 S1: just said, but the first thing is you didn't have to. 323 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,840 S1: You could have just said cancer. You didn't have to 324 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,400 S1: tell us. You didn't have to write about the HPV. 325 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,720 S1: You didn't have to, you know, open that can of worms. 326 00:16:39,460 --> 00:16:43,460 S1: But you and I think there's probably somebody listening right 327 00:16:43,460 --> 00:16:47,300 S1: now who has something in the past and that, you know, 328 00:16:47,340 --> 00:16:50,620 S1: the enemy taps on their shoulder and says to them, 329 00:16:50,620 --> 00:16:53,900 S1: you say you're a follower of Jesus and look at, 330 00:16:53,940 --> 00:16:56,260 S1: you know, look at that and the shame that just 331 00:16:56,260 --> 00:17:00,180 S1: washes over you. So, so how did you it takes 332 00:17:00,180 --> 00:17:02,300 S1: a lot of courage, I think, to do that. But 333 00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:06,300 S1: how do you not allow the the shame that then 334 00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:09,820 S1: creeps up, you know, later on and taps you on 335 00:17:09,820 --> 00:17:12,580 S1: the shoulder? How how do you allow that to not 336 00:17:12,580 --> 00:17:13,740 S1: overwhelm you? 337 00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:17,619 S2: Well, I don't think it I think there's times where 338 00:17:17,619 --> 00:17:19,580 S2: it does. I think there's times where you have to 339 00:17:19,619 --> 00:17:23,420 S2: fight that. And I think the way you you fight 340 00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:28,060 S2: that temptation to let the sin and the shame overtake 341 00:17:28,100 --> 00:17:30,300 S2: you is in the same way that Jesus fought temptation. 342 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:35,300 S2: It's just reminding the, the, the lies, speaking truth to 343 00:17:35,340 --> 00:17:39,320 S2: the lies, which is I have been redeemed. The sin 344 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,920 S2: that I've committed has been paid for by Christ. Like 345 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,160 S2: I don't need to pay penance for that sin. And no. 346 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,760 S2: And the reality, no amount of penance is going to 347 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,560 S2: cover the sin that we've committed. There's nothing we can 348 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,800 S2: do that will be enough to cover what we've done. 349 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,359 S2: But Christ paid it all. And I think that's the 350 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,720 S2: thing you have to remind yourself of over and over 351 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,080 S2: and over again is, I think sometimes we, the the 352 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,720 S2: deconstruction that walks away from the Lord because of my 353 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,040 S2: sin is too great. He can't forgive me in many 354 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,400 S2: ways is a form of pride. It's saying that Christ's 355 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,960 S2: death isn't enough. Christ's death isn't sufficient. It wasn't enough 356 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,160 S2: to cover what I've done. And. And the beautiful thing 357 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:25,080 S2: about the gospel is God Himself came and died. And 358 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,359 S2: so we are not. There's nothing we've done that's greater 359 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,520 S2: than the creator of the universe. And he came and 360 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,440 S2: died for us and covered our sin. And so we 361 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,460 S2: can walk in freedom Um. Um, now, I think sometimes 362 00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:42,379 S2: we live with consequences for our choices, and sometimes our 363 00:18:42,380 --> 00:18:47,379 S2: consequences are life long. But consequences and penalty are two 364 00:18:47,380 --> 00:18:50,820 S2: different things. And I think that's the thing that we 365 00:18:50,820 --> 00:18:56,020 S2: have to like our. We might feel difficulty over the consequences, 366 00:18:56,020 --> 00:19:00,179 S2: but that doesn't mean God's condemning us. It might mean 367 00:19:00,180 --> 00:19:01,820 S2: that we live in a broken world. And we have 368 00:19:01,820 --> 00:19:04,899 S2: to have I mean, you have consequences for sinful choices. 369 00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:07,860 S2: Someone murders someone, you go to prison, you can repent 370 00:19:07,859 --> 00:19:12,020 S2: in prison, but you still murdered someone. And so you. 371 00:19:12,020 --> 00:19:14,980 S1: Still love about that story, about about the woman then 372 00:19:14,980 --> 00:19:17,940 S1: is that she did she became an evangelist. You know, 373 00:19:17,980 --> 00:19:18,620 S1: she did. 374 00:19:18,660 --> 00:19:19,100 S2: Yeah. 375 00:19:19,140 --> 00:19:21,659 S1: And she said, look, you come and see this man. 376 00:19:21,660 --> 00:19:24,660 S1: And the other thing. And so, so he releases her 377 00:19:24,660 --> 00:19:27,060 S1: from that shame. You don't have to be ashamed of 378 00:19:27,060 --> 00:19:30,420 S1: yourself anymore, you know. And the the other thing I 379 00:19:30,420 --> 00:19:33,580 S1: love about that story is of anybody in the on 380 00:19:33,619 --> 00:19:37,920 S1: the planet that you could say, okay, I am the Messiah. 381 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,680 S1: You know, the one who's speaking to you, I am he. 382 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,280 S1: When she brings up the Messiah that he would tell her, 383 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,080 S1: it's like he didn't tell the religious leaders, all these 384 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,520 S1: other people, the the Roman leader, he could say I'm 385 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,600 S1: the Messiah. And he told her who was who was 386 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,040 S1: coming to that. Well, you know, in the heat. Uh, 387 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:00,720 S1: I just love that, don't you? 388 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,320 S2: I do. And what I think is really cool in 389 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,560 S2: the structure of how John writes the Gospel of John, 390 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,879 S2: is he puts her in contrast to Nicodemus in John three. So, um, 391 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,719 S2: many Bible scholars believe that this is this is intentional 392 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,760 S2: and that it's it's this it's this, um, John two 393 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,159 S2: through four is kind of like this, this little I 394 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:22,560 S2: don't know how you call it like a subset of 395 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,399 S2: stories to kind of go together, but John three and 396 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,880 S2: four serve as a contrast where Nicodemus comes to him 397 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,879 S2: at night. Nicodemus is a Pharisee, and we hear Pharisee, 398 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,820 S2: and we think bad because we're used to where we 399 00:20:34,820 --> 00:20:37,460 S2: talk about Pharisees like they were legalists and all the things. 400 00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:40,700 S2: But in that context, the original hearers would have viewed 401 00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:44,380 S2: Pharisees as as the most godly people they knew. They 402 00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:46,220 S2: followed the law. They were the religious leaders. They were 403 00:20:46,260 --> 00:20:49,300 S2: who everybody followed. So Nicodemus is the one you expect 404 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:52,300 S2: to be the evangelist? He's the one you expect to 405 00:20:52,340 --> 00:20:54,940 S2: come to Jesus and to hear the good news and 406 00:20:54,940 --> 00:20:57,940 S2: to then follow. But Nicodemus comes at night because he's 407 00:20:57,940 --> 00:21:01,340 S2: ashamed and afraid. He comes at night, and he doesn't 408 00:21:01,340 --> 00:21:05,500 S2: fully believe. He doesn't walk away believing in that encounter 409 00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:08,340 S2: in John three. But then you put John four comes 410 00:21:08,340 --> 00:21:12,500 S2: right after, and Jesus goes to her. She's a Samaritan. 411 00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:16,139 S2: So she's not she's she's half breed, essentially of a 412 00:21:16,140 --> 00:21:20,340 S2: Jew and the surrounding nations. And she's a woman and 413 00:21:20,340 --> 00:21:22,820 S2: she's an unmarried, she's an unclean woman because she's been 414 00:21:22,820 --> 00:21:26,540 S2: married multiple times. She's all the the she's the upside 415 00:21:26,540 --> 00:21:29,620 S2: down kingdom. She's everything. You don't expect to be the 416 00:21:29,619 --> 00:21:34,280 S2: one who Jesus says Reveals himself to, and she's the 417 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,080 S2: first recorded evangelist. Besides, you know, John the Baptist in 418 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,200 S2: the Gospel of John, and it shows the type of 419 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,080 S2: Savior he is. He comes to seek and save the lost, 420 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,400 S2: and he's for everyone. And he uses everyone in his kingdom. 421 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,919 S2: And it's not. He uses the weak things of the 422 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,520 S2: world to shame the strong. It's all the things that 423 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,200 S2: the world doesn't expect that Jesus uses in order to 424 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:03,520 S2: bring about his his kingdom, so that no one can boast. 425 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,399 S2: If Nicodemus had been the one who'd gone out and 426 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,520 S2: done what she did, everyone would say, well, of course 427 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,399 S2: he did. That's what you would expect. But even the 428 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,920 S2: disciples are shocked because they're all, they don't even want 429 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:15,240 S2: to talk. It says in the text that they don't 430 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,200 S2: even openly ask him why he's talking to a woman. 431 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,320 S2: They know it's a little bit crazy. They didn't even 432 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,480 S2: want to go through Samaria. And yet he says, we 433 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,439 S2: have to go through Samaria. And they're they're all shocked. 434 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,880 S2: They don't even dare ask him why he's doing it. 435 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,500 S2: And so even they recognize that it's a little bit 436 00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:35,580 S2: crazy that he's doing what he did. So I think 437 00:22:35,580 --> 00:22:38,460 S2: that's what's the beautiful piece of it is that for 438 00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:41,940 S2: anyone who thinks God can't use them, the Samaritan woman 439 00:22:41,940 --> 00:22:45,260 S2: is an example of he absolutely can and he wants to. 440 00:22:45,420 --> 00:22:48,060 S2: You're the type of person that he will use because 441 00:22:48,060 --> 00:22:51,379 S2: he's it's not about. So no one can boast, right? 442 00:22:51,420 --> 00:22:53,180 S2: So none of us can say, look, it's me, I 443 00:22:53,180 --> 00:22:55,100 S2: did it. It's so that we can all say, look 444 00:22:55,140 --> 00:22:57,820 S2: at what great, what a great savior that we have. 445 00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:02,540 S1: And and to Nicodemus, he said, you must be born again. 446 00:23:02,580 --> 00:23:04,740 S1: He's like, why didn't he say that to her? You know, 447 00:23:04,780 --> 00:23:08,580 S1: it's like she's in a really bad place here. Jesus. No, no, 448 00:23:08,580 --> 00:23:10,900 S1: we don't we don't get that. I love that the 449 00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:14,140 S1: reversal that you talk about the upside down kingdom. The 450 00:23:14,140 --> 00:23:17,300 S1: other thing that you said, though, in that story, was 451 00:23:17,660 --> 00:23:20,620 S1: that you felt when you were in the hospital after 452 00:23:20,619 --> 00:23:25,020 S1: the hysterectomy, that you you felt this overwhelming presence. And 453 00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:29,419 S1: there's probably somebody listening right now who said, I want that. 454 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,320 S1: that's what I prayed for in my downtime or my doubt, 455 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,520 S1: and I didn't get it. So there is this this 456 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:42,760 S1: idea that God is withholding his presence and that, uh, 457 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,080 S1: that help that we want. What do you say to 458 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:45,960 S1: that person? 459 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,720 S2: Yeah. So I think I do think there is, um, 460 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,760 S2: because there are seasons, we go through really, really dark 461 00:23:54,760 --> 00:24:00,960 S2: seasons where we don't sense his presence. I've gone through them, um, 462 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,000 S2: on more than one occasion where we can't trace him. Right. 463 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,080 S2: And so I think those are very difficult seasons. And 464 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,360 S2: I think to that person, I would say, um, you 465 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:15,640 S2: have a sympathetic savior because he also cried out, My God, 466 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,439 S2: my God, why have you forsaken me? And so he 467 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,000 S2: also knew what it felt like to pray prayers that 468 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,760 S2: went somewhat unanswered. Right? There's no unanswered prayers ultimately in 469 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,810 S2: in God's kingdom. But there are prayers where God answers 470 00:24:30,810 --> 00:24:33,010 S2: them differently than we want, or he delays in the 471 00:24:33,010 --> 00:24:36,050 S2: response that we're asking for. And so for in the 472 00:24:36,050 --> 00:24:39,490 S2: garden he prayed repeatedly for the cup to be passed 473 00:24:39,490 --> 00:24:42,649 S2: from him. And it wasn't. And he cried out on 474 00:24:42,650 --> 00:24:44,970 S2: the cross, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? 475 00:24:45,010 --> 00:24:48,810 S2: And so the beauty of that is that in our 476 00:24:48,810 --> 00:24:51,490 S2: dark nights of the soul and in our dark moments 477 00:24:51,490 --> 00:24:55,690 S2: where we completely feel forgotten by God, we actually still 478 00:24:55,690 --> 00:24:58,770 S2: have the presence of the Holy Spirit with us. We 479 00:24:58,770 --> 00:25:04,090 S2: have a Savior standing by us who faced the perceived 480 00:25:04,090 --> 00:25:06,570 S2: abandonment by the father in a way that we never 481 00:25:06,570 --> 00:25:09,530 S2: will have to, because he did it in our place. 482 00:25:09,770 --> 00:25:12,730 S2: And so we now have him with us. Now, that 483 00:25:12,730 --> 00:25:16,169 S2: doesn't mean that we always sense it and feel it. 484 00:25:16,530 --> 00:25:20,010 S2: And I don't know why the Lord does that. I 485 00:25:20,090 --> 00:25:22,090 S2: really don't. I mean, I wish I could, I wish 486 00:25:22,090 --> 00:25:23,689 S2: I knew the answer because then I would change it 487 00:25:23,730 --> 00:25:24,730 S2: when it happened to me. 488 00:25:25,130 --> 00:25:28,150 S1: But I you know what? This this is a great 489 00:25:28,150 --> 00:25:30,790 S1: place to take our middle point break here because you 490 00:25:30,790 --> 00:25:33,869 S1: wrote about teach me to feel and and the trauma 491 00:25:33,869 --> 00:25:36,350 S1: that you went through with one of the births of 492 00:25:36,350 --> 00:25:39,470 S1: your other sons. Um, and so I want to come 493 00:25:39,470 --> 00:25:42,030 S1: back and talk more about that, because this is the 494 00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:44,950 S1: nerve that is hitting somebody today. I'm just sure of it. 495 00:25:44,950 --> 00:25:48,510 S1: Someone to Believe In is written by Courtney Risk. You 496 00:25:48,510 --> 00:25:50,750 S1: can find out more about it at the website. Chris. 497 00:26:05,550 --> 00:26:07,869 S1: Thanks for joining us today at the Radio Backyard Fence. 498 00:26:07,869 --> 00:26:10,270 S1: Our programs recorded don't call us today, but go to 499 00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:13,830 S1: the website Chris Fabry lives. You can see how to 500 00:26:13,830 --> 00:26:16,750 S1: support us there and receive a really, really good thank 501 00:26:16,790 --> 00:26:19,389 S1: you here in December. This is my first day to 502 00:26:19,390 --> 00:26:22,510 S1: be able to tell you Hosanna in Excelsis Hymns and 503 00:26:22,510 --> 00:26:26,889 S1: devotions for the Christmas Season by David and Barbara Lehman. 504 00:26:26,890 --> 00:26:29,490 S1: That's our thank you for a gift of any size 505 00:26:29,770 --> 00:26:34,770 S1: at all. But make sure you click today's information because 506 00:26:34,810 --> 00:26:39,650 S1: Courtney Risk's book Someone to Believe In is worth it, 507 00:26:39,650 --> 00:26:43,290 S1: I guarantee you. Embracing the Savior who stays the same 508 00:26:43,570 --> 00:26:46,690 S1: when everything else changes. And if you have gone through 509 00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:52,169 S1: maybe somebody you know has de-churched or deconstructed and you're 510 00:26:52,170 --> 00:26:55,130 S1: praying but you don't know what to pray anymore, or 511 00:26:55,130 --> 00:26:58,370 S1: how to act toward them. Or maybe you're struggling with 512 00:26:58,369 --> 00:27:01,210 S1: your own doubts and you've kind of walked away from 513 00:27:01,210 --> 00:27:03,730 S1: the faith. I want you to hear more about what 514 00:27:03,730 --> 00:27:06,730 S1: Courtney is saying, but go to the book Someone to 515 00:27:06,770 --> 00:27:09,730 S1: Believe In. It's going to be a lifesaver, a game 516 00:27:09,730 --> 00:27:15,649 S1: changer for you. Chris Fabry live. We were talking about that, 517 00:27:15,650 --> 00:27:19,210 S1: that whole thing about feeling. But there was one other 518 00:27:19,570 --> 00:27:22,210 S1: deal that you talked about in your response when you 519 00:27:22,250 --> 00:27:26,270 S1: were in the hospital, and that was orphan mentality and 520 00:27:26,270 --> 00:27:28,790 S1: Jesus saying, I have not left you as orphans. And 521 00:27:28,790 --> 00:27:30,990 S1: this is one of the things that I've struggled with. 522 00:27:31,390 --> 00:27:33,590 S1: If you feel like you've got to do it, if 523 00:27:33,630 --> 00:27:35,390 S1: you feel like an orphan, you feel like you've got 524 00:27:35,390 --> 00:27:37,750 S1: to do it all yourself. You've got to pull yourself 525 00:27:37,750 --> 00:27:40,990 S1: up by your bootstraps. It's, you know, God provides. Absolutely. 526 00:27:40,990 --> 00:27:43,149 S1: But I got to go out and really do the 527 00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:46,830 S1: hard work. And if you stay in that on that 528 00:27:47,230 --> 00:27:52,630 S1: treadmill of of feeling like an orphan, it'll affect everything, 529 00:27:52,670 --> 00:27:53,230 S1: won't it? 530 00:27:54,310 --> 00:27:59,429 S2: Yes, because it will. I mean, we all know statistically 531 00:27:59,430 --> 00:28:01,510 S2: what happens to an orphan. I mean, kids who are 532 00:28:01,510 --> 00:28:04,230 S2: orphaned and don't have parents, they have attachment issues. They 533 00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:08,870 S2: have they're dysregulated. They they are unable to function. And 534 00:28:08,910 --> 00:28:10,990 S2: they have a hard time to have a harder hurdle 535 00:28:10,990 --> 00:28:14,190 S2: in functioning in regular life because they don't have that 536 00:28:14,190 --> 00:28:18,669 S2: stabilizing presence of parents. And we all, we all know 537 00:28:18,670 --> 00:28:21,590 S2: there's no substitute for a mom and a dad. Uh, 538 00:28:21,950 --> 00:28:24,410 S2: that the gap and the struggle that kids feel when 539 00:28:24,410 --> 00:28:26,690 S2: they don't have a mom and a dad is is 540 00:28:26,690 --> 00:28:31,609 S2: acute and lifelong. So I do think that as believers, 541 00:28:31,609 --> 00:28:35,690 S2: if we stay in that mentality, then we also will 542 00:28:35,690 --> 00:28:39,610 S2: be dysregulated and we will struggle with with functioning in 543 00:28:39,610 --> 00:28:42,610 S2: everyday life and we will not know who to believe, 544 00:28:42,610 --> 00:28:46,610 S2: and we will attach ourselves to the wrong places of 545 00:28:46,610 --> 00:28:51,570 S2: trust and the wrong the wrong idols. Right? We'll attach 546 00:28:51,570 --> 00:28:54,730 S2: ourselves to the wrong fathers and mothers and and authority 547 00:28:54,730 --> 00:28:57,730 S2: figures in our lives because we are living as orphans. 548 00:28:57,730 --> 00:29:00,250 S2: And I think there's a lot of things we can 549 00:29:00,250 --> 00:29:05,410 S2: learn from the the things in our everyday life that 550 00:29:05,450 --> 00:29:08,210 S2: are that serve as metaphors for this ultimate spiritual reality 551 00:29:08,210 --> 00:29:11,250 S2: that we have with God the Father. And so there's 552 00:29:11,250 --> 00:29:12,890 S2: a lot of things at play when we aren't, when 553 00:29:12,890 --> 00:29:15,730 S2: we live like we are orphans, instead of as ones 554 00:29:15,730 --> 00:29:17,450 S2: who have a loving Heavenly Father. 555 00:29:18,330 --> 00:29:21,730 S1: In that study that you wrote, teach me to feel, uh, 556 00:29:21,910 --> 00:29:25,709 S1: you were going through. Ben is your your last son, right? 557 00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:26,910 S2: He's my youngest. Yeah. 558 00:29:26,910 --> 00:29:29,670 S1: Yeah. Yep. And so there was you. You went in 559 00:29:29,710 --> 00:29:33,270 S1: the hospital. You were getting checked up, and then, uh, 560 00:29:33,670 --> 00:29:37,310 S1: you're there for three weeks and you're all alone and 561 00:29:37,590 --> 00:29:42,430 S1: just overwhelmed with with the situation that was before you. 562 00:29:42,590 --> 00:29:44,350 S1: How did God meet you? Right there? 563 00:29:45,790 --> 00:29:47,550 S2: I think there were a number of ways the Lord 564 00:29:47,550 --> 00:29:49,510 S2: met me. One of the most tangible ways the Lord 565 00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:52,710 S2: met me in that situation. I've had clearly, I've had 566 00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:56,230 S2: a lot of medical problems, but I mean, thankfully, since 567 00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:59,990 S2: I had my hysterectomy, I've been pretty even keeled. So, like, 568 00:29:59,990 --> 00:30:03,030 S2: life's been pretty fine. Uh, but I went through a 569 00:30:03,030 --> 00:30:04,990 S2: long period of time where it was a medical crisis 570 00:30:04,990 --> 00:30:09,310 S2: after medical crisis, all related to my reproductive organs. They 571 00:30:09,310 --> 00:30:12,150 S2: really didn't like me. But yeah, I the most tangible 572 00:30:12,150 --> 00:30:17,270 S2: way the Lord met me with the birth complication with 573 00:30:17,270 --> 00:30:20,390 S2: Ben was that we, the church that we were in 574 00:30:20,430 --> 00:30:22,690 S2: or our a part of was a really tiny church, 575 00:30:22,730 --> 00:30:26,810 S2: about like maybe 75 members. But we our kids had 576 00:30:26,810 --> 00:30:29,170 S2: round the clock care. I had I had visitors come 577 00:30:29,210 --> 00:30:32,610 S2: every day. We had people checking on us, and I, 578 00:30:32,650 --> 00:30:36,050 S2: I really sensed the Lord's presence through his people. I 579 00:30:36,090 --> 00:30:38,210 S2: sense the Lord's presence through people who were willing to 580 00:30:38,250 --> 00:30:40,730 S2: give up of their time and of their resources to 581 00:30:40,930 --> 00:30:43,010 S2: make sure that we were okay and make sure we 582 00:30:43,010 --> 00:30:47,410 S2: knew we weren't alone. And so I had a really 583 00:30:47,410 --> 00:30:52,610 S2: hard time reading or really taking in any information. I 584 00:30:52,610 --> 00:30:55,290 S2: think there was. I used to think hospital bed rest 585 00:30:55,330 --> 00:30:58,530 S2: would be like a vacation. Um, before I was on 586 00:30:58,530 --> 00:31:00,970 S2: hospital bed rest. And then because it was such a 587 00:31:00,970 --> 00:31:03,290 S2: high risk situation, there was just a constant stream of 588 00:31:03,290 --> 00:31:05,890 S2: people in our room. And so trying to make sure 589 00:31:05,930 --> 00:31:08,850 S2: things were stabilized. And so I just couldn't ever focus, 590 00:31:08,850 --> 00:31:11,970 S2: and I couldn't read Scripture, and I but I could 591 00:31:11,970 --> 00:31:15,410 S2: read the Psalms. And so I was able to read 592 00:31:15,410 --> 00:31:18,130 S2: the Psalms, and occasionally I would just use the Psalms as, 593 00:31:18,170 --> 00:31:20,710 S2: as my prayer guide, is just writing down how I 594 00:31:20,710 --> 00:31:23,670 S2: felt about the situation, and the Psalms really gave me 595 00:31:23,670 --> 00:31:27,950 S2: language for my feelings. The Psalms are the prayer book 596 00:31:27,950 --> 00:31:29,910 S2: and have been the prayer book of God's people, the 597 00:31:29,910 --> 00:31:33,150 S2: hymn book of God's people for for generations. And I 598 00:31:33,150 --> 00:31:36,870 S2: really experienced that in those moments, is that I did 599 00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:39,070 S2: not know what to pray. I did not have words. 600 00:31:39,470 --> 00:31:42,390 S2: I had so many emotions going on inside of me. 601 00:31:42,390 --> 00:31:45,430 S2: Yet in the Psalms I found words for my fears 602 00:31:45,630 --> 00:31:47,830 S2: and I found words for my anguish. I found words 603 00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:51,590 S2: for my struggles. And the Lord really used that time 604 00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:54,590 S2: where I was able to just take in the Psalms 605 00:31:54,590 --> 00:31:56,790 S2: and let the Psalms speak for me when I didn't 606 00:31:56,790 --> 00:31:57,590 S2: know what to say. 607 00:31:58,270 --> 00:32:01,790 S1: Which is exactly what you mentioned. My God, my God, 608 00:32:01,790 --> 00:32:04,710 S1: why have you forsaken me? Is exactly what Jesus did 609 00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:08,590 S1: in Psalm 22. He's he's reciting that it's not his. 610 00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:12,990 S1: He's doubting God's goodness. It's like this struggle, this human 611 00:32:12,990 --> 00:32:18,030 S1: struggle that I'm going through, I feel disconnected. And so, 612 00:32:18,170 --> 00:32:22,170 S1: as you said, it gives words to how you are feeling. 613 00:32:22,170 --> 00:32:24,890 S1: So that is one of the the real lifelines that 614 00:32:24,890 --> 00:32:28,490 S1: God has given us in his word, the Psalms, to 615 00:32:28,530 --> 00:32:30,810 S1: be able to pray those, to be able to read 616 00:32:30,810 --> 00:32:33,930 S1: those and say, I'm not alone in this, but you 617 00:32:33,930 --> 00:32:38,250 S1: mentioned and you had your your final son, Ben, and 618 00:32:38,250 --> 00:32:40,250 S1: you got four of them and they're all it sounds 619 00:32:40,250 --> 00:32:43,650 S1: like they're all athletic and they're all musical, and they 620 00:32:43,650 --> 00:32:46,170 S1: do do a lot of things. Uh, but there there's 621 00:32:46,170 --> 00:32:49,250 S1: some there's a woman listening right now, probably. I don't 622 00:32:49,250 --> 00:32:52,170 S1: know this for sure, but who who's not been able 623 00:32:52,170 --> 00:32:54,810 S1: to have children and has always wanted to have children 624 00:32:54,810 --> 00:33:00,050 S1: or has gone through, uh, miscarriage or a stillbirth and 625 00:33:00,090 --> 00:33:04,050 S1: is wondering that same thing, how do I how do 626 00:33:04,050 --> 00:33:07,530 S1: I hang on to God in the middle of this 627 00:33:07,570 --> 00:33:08,930 S1: loss that I've had? 628 00:33:09,530 --> 00:33:13,730 S2: Um, yeah. So we we also dealt with infertility for 629 00:33:13,730 --> 00:33:15,650 S2: a number of years, and then we also had some 630 00:33:15,650 --> 00:33:19,230 S2: miscarriages in there. And so we I know acutely what 631 00:33:19,230 --> 00:33:22,030 S2: it feels like to to want a baby and not 632 00:33:22,030 --> 00:33:23,550 S2: be able to have one or to want one and 633 00:33:23,550 --> 00:33:25,030 S2: then lose one and then not be able to have 634 00:33:25,030 --> 00:33:29,710 S2: one after that. So that's a it's a deep anguish 635 00:33:29,870 --> 00:33:32,590 S2: that feels like it will never end. I think it's 636 00:33:32,590 --> 00:33:35,310 S2: really it's I think it's sweet that you asked that 637 00:33:35,310 --> 00:33:37,390 S2: question at this time of year, because Christmas can be 638 00:33:37,390 --> 00:33:40,469 S2: a very, very painful time for women who, who want 639 00:33:40,470 --> 00:33:44,830 S2: a baby or who have lost a child because Christmas 640 00:33:44,830 --> 00:33:48,190 S2: feels like this happy moment, um, where everyone is celebrating 641 00:33:48,190 --> 00:33:51,190 S2: all their family traditions. And then there's all these memories 642 00:33:51,190 --> 00:33:53,350 S2: and and all the things you hope for and want, 643 00:33:53,670 --> 00:33:56,470 S2: and to be walking through the loss of a child, 644 00:33:56,670 --> 00:33:59,510 S2: or to be wanting a child and not having one, 645 00:33:59,550 --> 00:34:03,750 S2: makes that, um, absence feel acute at this time of year. 646 00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:07,950 S2: But the beauty of that also is that embedded in 647 00:34:07,950 --> 00:34:11,550 S2: the Christmas story is our stories of loss and stories 648 00:34:11,550 --> 00:34:15,610 S2: of of waiting. So you have a you have Elizabeth, 649 00:34:15,610 --> 00:34:19,649 S2: who waited her entire life for a baby, and in 650 00:34:19,690 --> 00:34:22,850 S2: that time period, to not have a baby was to 651 00:34:22,890 --> 00:34:25,009 S2: have no purpose, because the only thing a woman could 652 00:34:25,010 --> 00:34:28,130 S2: do was to continue her family's line. And what I 653 00:34:28,130 --> 00:34:31,450 S2: find so beautiful about the story in Luke two is 654 00:34:31,450 --> 00:34:34,970 S2: that Luke reminds us and tells us that this family 655 00:34:34,969 --> 00:34:38,089 S2: was righteous, that she was faithful, and she was righteous 656 00:34:38,969 --> 00:34:42,650 S2: even in her anguish and her waiting. And that when 657 00:34:42,650 --> 00:34:45,690 S2: when Zechariah gets the the promise of the child, it 658 00:34:45,690 --> 00:34:48,450 S2: says that the he says, the angel says, your prayer 659 00:34:48,450 --> 00:34:51,489 S2: has been answered. And so even in him serving the 660 00:34:51,489 --> 00:34:53,890 S2: Lord like he was supposed to as a Levite, he 661 00:34:53,890 --> 00:34:56,489 S2: must have been praying for God to answer this very 662 00:34:56,489 --> 00:34:59,770 S2: personal prayer for them. And yet God appears to him 663 00:35:00,450 --> 00:35:03,970 S2: and answers a personal prayer. Um, but we don't see 664 00:35:03,969 --> 00:35:06,850 S2: all the years of anguish, the years of waiting. I mean, 665 00:35:06,890 --> 00:35:09,530 S2: they were very old by the time he was born. 666 00:35:09,530 --> 00:35:12,250 S2: And so embedded in this story of hope at Christmas 667 00:35:12,290 --> 00:35:15,790 S2: time is also the story of God who shows up 668 00:35:15,790 --> 00:35:20,190 S2: for waiting people. God who appears to waiting people. And 669 00:35:20,910 --> 00:35:23,990 S2: they had to live through years of stigma and pain 670 00:35:23,989 --> 00:35:27,670 S2: and suffering to get to this point. And this is 671 00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:29,629 S2: not a like, if you do this, then God's going 672 00:35:29,670 --> 00:35:31,830 S2: to answer your prayer. He might not. I mean, because 673 00:35:31,830 --> 00:35:34,790 S2: also embedded in the Christmas story is the slaughter of 674 00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:37,629 S2: the innocents right at the end after after Jesus is 675 00:35:37,630 --> 00:35:41,069 S2: born and Herod kills all the babies in Bethlehem. And 676 00:35:41,630 --> 00:35:44,270 S2: it it's. I feel like the story is so frequently 677 00:35:44,270 --> 00:35:46,109 S2: overlooked at Christmas time, but it is a part of 678 00:35:46,110 --> 00:35:49,950 S2: the Christmas story is that to save one baby who 679 00:35:49,950 --> 00:35:53,950 S2: was going to save us all, many babies had to die. 680 00:35:54,469 --> 00:35:58,110 S2: And and those these were small towns at the time. 681 00:35:58,110 --> 00:36:01,750 S2: So these people, these people knew one another. And so 682 00:36:01,750 --> 00:36:04,190 S2: Jesus would go back to Bethlehem and meet people who 683 00:36:04,190 --> 00:36:07,430 S2: lost children. I think one of my favorite things to 684 00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:09,509 S2: listen to at Christmas time is John Piper reading the 685 00:36:09,510 --> 00:36:13,450 S2: innkeeper poem that he wrote. And it's about that story 686 00:36:13,450 --> 00:36:17,130 S2: of of it's a it's a fictional account of what? 687 00:36:17,170 --> 00:36:19,930 S2: How a family would have felt meeting Jesus, knowing that 688 00:36:19,930 --> 00:36:24,410 S2: their baby had been slaughtered. Um, in Bethlehem when. When 689 00:36:24,410 --> 00:36:27,850 S2: Jesus was a baby. So I think the Christmas story 690 00:36:28,489 --> 00:36:31,049 S2: is a story of hope, obviously. And but I think 691 00:36:31,050 --> 00:36:33,730 S2: it's a story of deep anguish and loss and grief 692 00:36:33,730 --> 00:36:36,690 S2: and waiting. And I think that's comforting to people who 693 00:36:36,690 --> 00:36:40,170 S2: walk through the season with an unanswered prayer that they 694 00:36:40,170 --> 00:36:42,529 S2: would like God to answer. I think it reminds us 695 00:36:42,530 --> 00:36:45,210 S2: that God's ways are not our ways, and God's timetable 696 00:36:45,210 --> 00:36:49,130 S2: is not our timetable. And, um, people wait for a 697 00:36:49,130 --> 00:36:51,529 S2: really long time for God to act. And I think 698 00:36:51,530 --> 00:36:54,490 S2: Christmas can only heighten that waiting. But I think also 699 00:36:54,489 --> 00:36:57,890 S2: Christmas can can be a comfort to those who are waiting. 700 00:36:57,930 --> 00:37:04,730 S1: Yeah. And the ultimate comfort is the presence of God 701 00:37:04,730 --> 00:37:11,209 S1: with us. Yes. And that God condescended. That he decided 702 00:37:11,210 --> 00:37:14,310 S1: to do what we could not do for ever do 703 00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:20,110 S1: for ourselves. And in that birth, that miraculous birth and 704 00:37:20,110 --> 00:37:24,750 S1: life and then death and resurrection. That's where our hope is. 705 00:37:24,790 --> 00:37:27,069 S1: I want to get to a couple of points in 706 00:37:27,070 --> 00:37:32,110 S1: our next segment. Courtney Reisig is with us today. Ray Essig, 707 00:37:32,350 --> 00:37:36,549 S1: someone to believe in embracing the Savior who stays the 708 00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:39,710 S1: same when everything else changes. It's our featured resource at 709 00:37:39,710 --> 00:37:46,270 S1: Chris Fabry Livorno Chris Fabry, Livorno More straight ahead on 710 00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:58,670 S1: Moody Radio. Thanks for joining us today on Chris Fabry Live. 711 00:37:58,670 --> 00:38:02,629 S1: I'm so excited to introduce you to Courtney Risk. It's 712 00:38:02,630 --> 00:38:06,270 S1: my first time meeting her. This high school English teacher, 713 00:38:06,390 --> 00:38:08,670 S1: who's been through an awful lot and who is a 714 00:38:08,670 --> 00:38:11,370 S1: Bible teacher. You find out more about her. We've got 715 00:38:11,370 --> 00:38:14,170 S1: a link to her site and the book Someone to 716 00:38:14,210 --> 00:38:17,810 S1: Believe In Embracing the Savior who Stays the same when 717 00:38:17,810 --> 00:38:21,090 S1: everything else changes. Is that where you are? There's. There's 718 00:38:21,130 --> 00:38:23,290 S1: a lot of change in your life. A lot of 719 00:38:23,450 --> 00:38:27,169 S1: deconstructing going on around you or ditching. Or maybe you 720 00:38:27,170 --> 00:38:31,330 S1: have experienced some kind of church hurt. That is part 721 00:38:31,330 --> 00:38:33,290 S1: of this book. As a matter of fact, when you 722 00:38:33,290 --> 00:38:36,049 S1: were in your 20s, you came to Christ in college, 723 00:38:36,210 --> 00:38:38,129 S1: and when you were in your 20s, you had this 724 00:38:38,130 --> 00:38:43,170 S1: church heard Courtney of a of a pastor falling, and 725 00:38:43,170 --> 00:38:47,209 S1: the shepherd, the sheep kind of scattered. There are people 726 00:38:47,210 --> 00:38:49,690 S1: who are going through that right now. Talk to that 727 00:38:49,690 --> 00:38:50,730 S1: broken heart. 728 00:38:51,530 --> 00:38:54,250 S2: Yes, I still remember. So this, sadly, was not the 729 00:38:54,250 --> 00:38:57,650 S2: first the last time we would walk through a circumstance 730 00:38:57,650 --> 00:38:59,890 S2: like that, which I think if anyone's lived long enough, 731 00:38:59,890 --> 00:39:02,850 S2: they understand. But I was in my 20s, and I 732 00:39:02,850 --> 00:39:04,970 S2: was a part of a church plant from a larger 733 00:39:04,969 --> 00:39:08,670 S2: church in the city that I lived in and Uh, 734 00:39:08,670 --> 00:39:11,469 S2: probably like 6 or 7 months into it. The past 735 00:39:11,510 --> 00:39:14,509 S2: they called the church meeting and the pastor confessed to 736 00:39:14,510 --> 00:39:17,830 S2: a relationship with a woman who wasn't his wife. And 737 00:39:17,830 --> 00:39:20,549 S2: I still remember my friend coming over. We I had 738 00:39:20,550 --> 00:39:22,230 S2: decided to go back to the church. I had been 739 00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:24,190 S2: a part of the church. I planted the church prior 740 00:39:24,190 --> 00:39:28,149 S2: to that. But my friend called me and came over 741 00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:31,230 S2: and sat with. I sat with her. And I remember 742 00:39:31,390 --> 00:39:35,910 S2: her just crying and not really knowing what to do 743 00:39:36,350 --> 00:39:40,350 S2: with the news, because it felt like in many ways 744 00:39:40,350 --> 00:39:42,310 S2: it felt like God had failed her. I mean, this 745 00:39:42,310 --> 00:39:46,669 S2: pastor had been a a father figure to her. She 746 00:39:46,670 --> 00:39:49,950 S2: was not didn't come from a Christian home. This pastor 747 00:39:49,950 --> 00:39:53,550 S2: had been a friend to her. This pastor had given her, um, 748 00:39:53,590 --> 00:39:56,310 S2: a place to serve. And like there was so many 749 00:39:56,310 --> 00:39:59,910 S2: things about it and the church didn't really recover. I mean, 750 00:39:59,950 --> 00:40:02,430 S2: people ended up going back to the church that planted it, 751 00:40:02,430 --> 00:40:05,029 S2: and the church kind of scattered, and the person they 752 00:40:05,030 --> 00:40:07,670 S2: picked to replace the pastor just didn't really work out. 753 00:40:07,770 --> 00:40:13,250 S2: And and it was so disorienting for this, my friend, 754 00:40:13,250 --> 00:40:18,049 S2: that in many ways, her relationship with the church to 755 00:40:18,130 --> 00:40:20,330 S2: this day has not recovered. I mean, we're all in 756 00:40:20,330 --> 00:40:22,850 S2: our 40s now. This has been a long time. And 757 00:40:22,850 --> 00:40:28,170 S2: so the long lasting impact of a pastor failing and 758 00:40:28,170 --> 00:40:33,810 S2: falling is, is deeply troubling. And and then we've also 759 00:40:33,850 --> 00:40:36,490 S2: I mean, our family has walked through other instances of this. 760 00:40:36,930 --> 00:40:40,770 S2: And it is for me what I've had to come 761 00:40:40,770 --> 00:40:46,049 S2: to terms with is, is my disorientation with with the 762 00:40:46,050 --> 00:40:49,770 S2: church or Christianity or, or the Lord. Ultimately, is it 763 00:40:49,770 --> 00:40:53,610 S2: because I'm putting people in the place of God and 764 00:40:53,610 --> 00:40:56,009 S2: I have had to come to terms with as I've 765 00:40:56,050 --> 00:40:59,810 S2: gotten older, is people may fail me, but God will 766 00:40:59,810 --> 00:41:03,489 S2: not fail me. The church may fail me because it's 767 00:41:03,489 --> 00:41:07,469 S2: a human, earthly institution. I mean, the New Testament gives 768 00:41:07,469 --> 00:41:10,910 S2: us lots of examples of really messed up churches, and 769 00:41:10,950 --> 00:41:13,109 S2: the church on earth is no different today than it 770 00:41:13,110 --> 00:41:17,870 S2: was in in the Apostle Paul's time. And but at 771 00:41:17,870 --> 00:41:22,950 S2: the end of the day, my disorientation and my desire 772 00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:25,509 S2: to maybe walk away because the church fails me or 773 00:41:25,550 --> 00:41:28,430 S2: a pastor fails me is probably because I have put 774 00:41:28,430 --> 00:41:33,549 S2: an outsized emphasis and and trust in a human institution 775 00:41:33,550 --> 00:41:37,910 S2: and people and not in the Lord, because he will 776 00:41:37,910 --> 00:41:41,310 S2: not fail us. His word has not changed. And I'll 777 00:41:41,310 --> 00:41:44,150 S2: be I mean, for me personally, I have a complicated 778 00:41:44,190 --> 00:41:46,230 S2: I mean, we're a members of a church and and 779 00:41:46,390 --> 00:41:49,149 S2: and and serve and all those things. But we've walked 780 00:41:49,150 --> 00:41:53,070 S2: through some things in recent years where I don't feel 781 00:41:53,070 --> 00:41:57,190 S2: awesome about going to church, but I do, but I'm 782 00:41:57,190 --> 00:41:59,630 S2: not putting my faith there. That's not where my faith is. 783 00:42:00,030 --> 00:42:01,830 S2: And but I am. 784 00:42:02,350 --> 00:42:04,990 S1: Let me jump in with this because there is somebody 785 00:42:05,090 --> 00:42:08,010 S1: listening who feels like, well, it feels like John the Baptist. 786 00:42:08,050 --> 00:42:10,770 S1: It's like he was he'd signed up, you know, he'd 787 00:42:10,810 --> 00:42:14,370 S1: signed on. He'd seen the dove, you know, he'd heard, uh, 788 00:42:14,370 --> 00:42:17,290 S1: the at the baptism of Jesus. And he really believed. 789 00:42:17,330 --> 00:42:20,090 S1: I mean, he was so close to Jesus being related 790 00:42:20,090 --> 00:42:24,250 S1: to him. And he he heard the story of, you know, 791 00:42:24,290 --> 00:42:26,570 S1: in utero and all that. And then. 792 00:42:26,610 --> 00:42:27,130 S2: Right. 793 00:42:27,210 --> 00:42:30,970 S1: Here he is in prison and he's about to be beheaded, 794 00:42:31,010 --> 00:42:33,690 S1: though he probably didn't know that exactly right then. But 795 00:42:33,730 --> 00:42:36,250 S1: he is. And he sends his disciples to say, wait 796 00:42:36,250 --> 00:42:39,050 S1: a minute, time out, or did I get this wrong? 797 00:42:39,090 --> 00:42:42,250 S1: Are you really the one? So it felt like it's 798 00:42:42,250 --> 00:42:46,690 S1: like God has has abandoned me here. Or at least 799 00:42:46,730 --> 00:42:50,049 S1: that's that's what I read into his story. And and 800 00:42:50,050 --> 00:42:53,290 S1: if you feel that way, you know, how do you 801 00:42:53,330 --> 00:42:55,170 S1: come out on the other side of that? 802 00:42:55,730 --> 00:42:58,730 S2: Yeah. I think at the end of the day, you 803 00:42:58,930 --> 00:43:01,610 S2: Jesus says to John the Baptist, like, what have you 804 00:43:01,650 --> 00:43:03,910 S2: seen me do? You've seen the blind receive their sight. 805 00:43:03,910 --> 00:43:07,430 S2: You've seen the lame walk. And then Jesus encourages John 806 00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:10,069 S2: the Baptist. Like, essentially like. And I've seen God work 807 00:43:10,070 --> 00:43:12,550 S2: in you. There's noone greater than you that's been here. 808 00:43:12,989 --> 00:43:15,109 S2: And I have walked with people who have said, like, 809 00:43:15,110 --> 00:43:17,790 S2: even reading the word has been hard for them because 810 00:43:17,989 --> 00:43:20,830 S2: the word has been used and twisted so much by 811 00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:23,669 S2: by people who claim the name of Christ that even 812 00:43:23,670 --> 00:43:26,870 S2: reading God's Word is hard because. And so that's, that's 813 00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:30,390 S2: that's hard. I think we have to, um, go back 814 00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:34,670 S2: to what is God said and and not what has. 815 00:43:34,790 --> 00:43:37,750 S2: This is why I'm so passionate about biblical literacy, not 816 00:43:37,790 --> 00:43:40,790 S2: what has someone told you God has said? What have 817 00:43:40,790 --> 00:43:44,509 S2: you read for yourself that God has said? What have 818 00:43:44,510 --> 00:43:46,509 S2: you read in His word? Have you spent time with him? 819 00:43:46,510 --> 00:43:50,870 S2: Have you do you can you can you discern and 820 00:43:50,870 --> 00:43:54,589 S2: decipher what's true and what's not true based on the Bible? 821 00:43:55,230 --> 00:43:57,830 S2: And I think and I believe that if you're walking 822 00:43:57,830 --> 00:43:59,710 S2: with the Lord, you can because you have the Holy Spirit. 823 00:43:59,710 --> 00:44:01,710 S2: You don't need someone to tell you what it says. 824 00:44:01,710 --> 00:44:04,290 S2: You have the spirit of the living God inside of you, 825 00:44:04,850 --> 00:44:08,170 S2: helping you determine and helping you interpret. And so at 826 00:44:08,170 --> 00:44:09,250 S2: the end of the day, I think we have to 827 00:44:09,290 --> 00:44:11,009 S2: go back to what is God said and what is 828 00:44:11,010 --> 00:44:14,930 S2: true and and not what what is someone said to us. 829 00:44:14,930 --> 00:44:17,810 S2: And sometimes I think that means removing ourselves from situations 830 00:44:17,810 --> 00:44:21,049 S2: and sitting with the Lord. Um, sometimes it's like taking 831 00:44:21,050 --> 00:44:23,290 S2: a walk and just letting him speak to you with 832 00:44:23,290 --> 00:44:27,130 S2: what you you know to be true. Um, sometimes it's 833 00:44:27,130 --> 00:44:31,210 S2: spending time praying. Sometimes it's listening to to music. I mean, 834 00:44:31,210 --> 00:44:33,930 S2: I think there's things we can do to silence the 835 00:44:33,930 --> 00:44:37,969 S2: voices of other people speaking God's word to us and 836 00:44:37,969 --> 00:44:43,810 S2: letting God's Word speak to us. And I, I don't 837 00:44:43,810 --> 00:44:46,529 S2: think I would have made it over the last, what, 838 00:44:46,570 --> 00:44:51,330 S2: 20 years if if I had only trusted what someone 839 00:44:51,330 --> 00:44:54,250 S2: else had told me was true. I think I had, 840 00:44:54,290 --> 00:44:56,489 S2: I think like, and I tend to be a person 841 00:44:56,530 --> 00:44:58,009 S2: of like, I don't want to believe what you said. 842 00:44:58,010 --> 00:45:00,570 S2: I'm going to see it for myself. And I think 843 00:45:00,610 --> 00:45:04,270 S2: we we've got to recover. For believers that you are 844 00:45:04,310 --> 00:45:06,989 S2: the priesthood of believers matters. That means that you don't 845 00:45:06,989 --> 00:45:08,790 S2: need someone to interpret it for you. You can do 846 00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:11,350 S2: it yourself. And I think if we recover some of 847 00:45:11,390 --> 00:45:15,230 S2: that for believers, then, then the people who have so 848 00:45:15,230 --> 00:45:17,910 S2: much sway and influence over us and who who threaten 849 00:45:17,950 --> 00:45:20,149 S2: our faith when they fail, they won't have so much 850 00:45:20,150 --> 00:45:22,230 S2: influence over us because we will know for ourselves what 851 00:45:22,230 --> 00:45:24,390 S2: is true, and we will know for ourselves how to 852 00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:26,870 S2: discern truth from error. But we have to hold people 853 00:45:26,870 --> 00:45:30,989 S2: to a higher standard. Um, and I think that that 854 00:45:30,989 --> 00:45:34,270 S2: ultimately is. And I also there's no substitute for time. 855 00:45:35,110 --> 00:45:38,190 S2: I think we want a quick fix and healing and 856 00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:41,830 S2: any type of healing doesn't doesn't happen overnight. We can't 857 00:45:41,830 --> 00:45:44,270 S2: we can't we can't microwave our way to healing. It 858 00:45:44,270 --> 00:45:45,750 S2: has to has to take time. 859 00:45:46,350 --> 00:45:49,590 S1: Courtney, you've you've pushed all the buttons here today because 860 00:45:49,590 --> 00:45:52,390 S1: I we've we've gotten to just kind of scratch the 861 00:45:52,390 --> 00:45:55,469 S1: surface of the book. And I wanted to read more 862 00:45:55,469 --> 00:45:58,030 S1: about some of the stories. There's a woman named Katie 863 00:45:58,070 --> 00:46:01,610 S1: here who echoes Much of what you've just said and 864 00:46:01,610 --> 00:46:05,450 S1: and the place where some people are of having brain fog. 865 00:46:05,450 --> 00:46:10,330 S1: And I can't read scripture. Um, and but then hearing 866 00:46:10,330 --> 00:46:13,890 S1: the Psalms being read and that. So I'll call a 867 00:46:13,890 --> 00:46:16,410 S1: time out right there. Thank you for doing what you're 868 00:46:16,410 --> 00:46:20,290 S1: doing for writing this book. Someone to believe in and 869 00:46:20,570 --> 00:46:25,290 S1: and keep, keep Momming keep wifing keep teaching the Bible 870 00:46:25,290 --> 00:46:28,210 S1: and writing and come back and see us real soon, okay? 871 00:46:28,890 --> 00:46:30,210 S2: Thank you, thank you. 872 00:46:31,050 --> 00:46:34,370 S1: Courtney. Risk. Our guest today, author of Someone to Believe 873 00:46:34,370 --> 00:46:38,410 S1: In Embracing the Savior who Stays the Same when Everything 874 00:46:38,410 --> 00:46:44,050 S1: Else Changes. It's our featured resource at Chris Paul Chris Fabry. 875 00:46:46,210 --> 00:46:48,569 S1: Thanks a lot for listening today. Chris Fabry Live is 876 00:46:48,570 --> 00:46:52,890 S1: a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.