S1: You're not an expert at experiencing grief, and that's okay.
S1: But God sees you. He knows right where you are.
S2: God wants to be in the midst of our negative spaces,
S2: and that's going to be the quickest way and the
S2: most wholesome way to move back toward a positive space.
S3: Welcome to building relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of
S3: the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages. Losses,
S3: big and small, are part of every life. How do
S3: you navigate those and find a path forward? Today, the
S3: husband and wife team of Chuck and Ashley Elliot talk
S3: about that.
S4: They have a creatively titled book called I Used to Be.
S4: And no matter what you used to be that has
S4: put a mark on your life, you're going to find
S4: encouragement and a whole lot of hope today. That's our hope.
S4: If you go to building relationships with us, you'll see
S4: that book right there. Gary, this topic of loss is universal,
S4: isn't it?
S5: Absolutely. Chris, if you're going to live life, you're going
S5: to lose some things along the way. And some of
S5: them are very, very painful. So I think our listeners
S5: are going to find this program and this book very,
S5: very helpful.
S6: Yeah.
S4: I'm really looking forward to talking with our guests, Chuck
S4: and Ashley Elliot and hearing Gary interact with them. They
S4: are content creators who have partnered with YouVersion right now,
S4: Media and an array of other national organizations. They're frequent speakers,
S4: popular workshop leaders. Chuck's a pastor at Bethel Church in Evansville, Indiana,
S4: and Ashley's a licensed counselor at Auxiliary Psychological Services. You
S4: can find out more of them and our featured resource.
S4: I used to be at Building Relationships US.
S5: Well, Ashley and Chuck, welcome to Building Relationships. Thanks.
S1: Yeah, we're excited to be here. Thank you.
S5: Well, let's start with your love story. Give me both versions, Ashley.
S5: And you first, and then Chuck.
S2: Well, Gary, thanks you so much for your work. And
S2: we'll get into it a little bit, but Chuck and
S2: I have been using your material for over 15 years,
S2: especially with the love languages. And it's an honor to
S2: be here, and it's an honor to use your work
S2: and even to be sharing the platform with you today.
S2: And so we just want to say thank you. But
S2: as Chuck and I have came together and get to
S2: know one another, we met at Lee University and that's
S2: where we both went to school. We both were in
S2: the rec center, and so I was working the front
S2: desk one summer and had so much fun getting to
S2: know different people who had come out. But but Chuck,
S2: he was walking through and struck up a conversation with
S2: me whenever I was working there.
S1: Yeah, I remembered a little bit differently not to jump
S1: in too quickly, but I remember this really pretty redhead
S1: would walk by the racquetball court, and she would cup
S1: her hands on each side of her eyes so she
S1: could see through the glass and just look at me.
S1: And it happened all the time. So I figured, you
S1: know what? I should probably ask her out. So that's
S1: kind of that's kind of what I remember.
S2: That's not exactly how I remember it.
S1: Maybe not completely true.
S2: No, I'm not quite, but. But you did pursue me.
S2: You asked me to play racquetball. We sat around afterward
S2: and talked about ministry dreams, some of which are being
S2: fulfilled even now, in recent years. And and so it
S2: was such a great time to get to meet one
S2: another and to see that we could wait on the Lord.
S2: I had been single for several years, and just waiting
S2: for God to bring that right person into my life
S2: and and love is such a tricky thing. And the
S2: enemy comes in and tells you that you're not enough.
S2: He comes and tells you you should settle or don't wait.
S2: But we found that waiting was really worth it. And
S2: and even all these years later, life is not a
S2: bed of roses. It's filled with lots of used to be's,
S2: lots of struggles. But I'm so thankful that we've gotten
S2: to journey together now.
S1: I think that's mostly correct. Maybe. Maybe the part that
S1: I have was a little bit exaggerated. But I did
S1: pursue her. And you know what, Gary? Chris, you'll probably
S1: like this. I still have Ashley's phone number when she
S1: gave it to me the first time. And it's framed
S1: in my office at church. So I have it up
S1: on on a shelf right there. And I have her
S1: phone number. She wrote down her cell phone number, and
S1: it was written on a piece of paper that was
S1: behind the counter at the rec center at Lee University.
S1: And I've had it ever since. And you know what?
S1: I'm still trying to convince her to go out with
S1: me as often as I can, and I've been crazy
S1: about her ever since. But we knew that we wanted
S1: ministry to be a part of what we do because
S1: we love working with people. We have a shared love
S1: for the Lord, and it's all come back to relationships
S1: and how we can help people.
S5: Yeah, well, however you all got together, I'm glad you did.
S7: Thank you.
S5: Let's talk about this book. Why did you decide to
S5: team up and write this book? I used to be.
S1: Ashley and I, through our work with ministry and counseling
S1: and coaching, we really saw that when somebody lost something
S1: or someone that they really loved, it would just shake
S1: their identity. It would shake their identity at this core level.
S1: And in the book I used to be. And then
S1: there's a blank after that, and you fill in the
S1: blank with who it is or what it is that
S1: you used to be, and we found for ourselves. And
S1: we can go into that. In a little bit. But
S1: when we lost and when we had difficulties in relationships,
S1: we were wondering, okay, now who am I? Because I
S1: used to be this. I used to have this. I
S1: used to be married. I used to be a business owner.
S1: I used to be a son, a daughter, a mother,
S1: a father. Now what do I do?
S2: And as Christians, we sometimes would struggle at our identity
S2: in Christ whenever we would face some sort of loss.
S2: You know, God, I thought you called me to whatever
S2: it is, but now I'm questioning. Maybe I'm not good enough.
S2: Am I disqualified because of my grief or my sin?
S2: And as we saw that we struggled in some of
S2: these ways and our counseling clients and people at church struggled,
S2: we saw that there was an identity piece that was
S2: really impacted, that isn't really talked about a whole lot,
S2: especially in regard to grief. And then we don't just
S2: say grief as something that's such as a death, but
S2: the loss of a job or the loss of a
S2: loved one due to divorce, you know, these are these
S2: are things that we grieve and even really small losses.
S2: If you have a friend that moves away, it can
S2: be something that affects us at the identity level. I
S2: thought that I was loved and now I don't feel
S2: quite as loved.
S7: Yeah.
S5: It was just last night my wife and I had
S5: dinner with a lady who lost her husband. And, you know,
S5: it's it's that's a huge loss. And she's thinking, you know,
S5: I'm a widow. Where do I go now? So, yeah,
S5: it's a you guys are you're vulnerable about your own
S5: stories as well. And one of the painful struggles that
S5: you've been through is miscarriage. Walk us through that particular
S5: trauma in your own life.
S2: Yeah. Our first loss was in 2015. And then we
S2: faced another loss in 2016 and again in 2017. And
S2: throughout those times we felt some really similar ways, and
S2: we also felt some pretty different ways. And so the
S2: first time we faced a loss, we worshiped in the air.
S2: And then the second time we felt like, oh, again.
S2: And it just took a little bit more of a blow,
S2: maybe to our psyche, our relationship with God a little bit,
S2: at least for me, that I felt like man, Lord,
S2: I prepared myself. I took a year to try to
S2: pray and get strong, get on my arm or spiritually,
S2: and I just didn't feel prepared for it. And as
S2: we struggled through these times, I often coped by barreling through.
S2: I went to work the day after I had one
S2: of the miscarriages. I continued to lead and to serve
S2: on the worship team at church. And I remember one
S2: time just breaking down, crying after worship service. And it
S2: was interesting because I felt alone. But then once I cried,
S2: which I kind of wish that I wouldn't have, I
S2: had someone put their arms around me and they asked
S2: what was going on, and I shared that I had
S2: a miscarriage, and even as I shared, it just became
S2: a little bit more obvious to me that it's okay
S2: to struggle. But sometimes as a ministry leader and a counselor,
S2: I'm used to pouring out to other people, and it
S2: made it harder for me to feel like it was
S2: okay to receive help. And so that messiness of feeling like,
S2: I've got to I got to keep working. I got
S2: to keep taking care of my kids or whatever it
S2: is that we have to do. Mixed with this vulnerable
S2: state of needing support and help. It can be just
S2: overwhelming to bear.
S1: It really is overwhelming because we want people to see us.
S1: We want people to know what's going on in our lives,
S1: but at the same time, we don't like how it
S1: feels when people look at us or tell us what
S1: we look like, or give us advice, or have those
S1: little anecdotes that don't seem helpful in the moment. And
S1: it can be like, okay, I'm going through this difficult thing.
S1: I want people to know, but I don't want them
S1: to know. So I almost feel like I'm hiding, which
S1: really puts another strain on identity. And we just saw
S1: that people and ourselves included, when we went through loss,
S1: we were trying to find out, okay, how much do
S1: I share, how much don't I share, and what do
S1: I do to navigate?
S7: Yeah.
S5: Chuck, did you and Ashley process your grief differently?
S1: Yes, sir. We did. Um, I, I had a hard
S1: time talking about it because I knew that through these miscarriages,
S1: I did not experience the same thing that Ashley did.
S1: I did not have the baby in my body. I
S1: did not have the same kind of connection. I am
S1: not a woman. I am well aware of this. But
S1: I was still hurting. I was still feeling things that
S1: were coming out as anger. I felt like a failure.
S1: I felt like I was insufficient, I felt like I
S1: didn't do what I needed to do as a father,
S1: and I knew that I wanted to communicate those things.
S1: But sometimes I'd feel like if I say something to her,
S1: I'm going to add stress to her when I already
S1: know that she's carrying so much. And that's one of
S1: the things as a couple and as a married couple,
S1: when you go through something together as a couple, it
S1: puts strain on the relationship. And unfortunately, divorce rates go
S1: up after miscarriage and loss of a child because you
S1: don't know how to communicate through those things. But what
S1: I found was if I would tell Ashley that I'm
S1: having a hard time, it didn't put a wedge between us.
S1: It didn't make her feel like she had to carry
S1: more things for me. It let her know that I
S1: was feeling things too, and she wasn't alone. And that
S1: was something that was really powerful, that I feel like
S1: I've taken over into other areas of our relationship, because
S1: if there's one of us who's going to communicate more
S1: in the relationship, it's Ashley. I'm more likely to hold
S1: back and not say something. But I've learned through grief
S1: that if I communicate more, things do get better, even
S1: when I'm resistant and I don't want to.
S2: And I felt so thankful that he shared. And I
S2: acknowledged that it made sense the way he was coping.
S2: But it was something that was a need for me
S2: to hear from him. Even if he did feel differently
S2: from me, I needed to hear it. And whenever I
S2: heard he was struggling, like he said, I didn't feel
S2: as alone because I felt less stable. I felt less
S2: interested in listening to other people's stories. I had a
S2: harder time keeping my attention on my students. I worked
S2: at a university at that time for 11 years, and
S2: and I just struggled sometimes with wanting to invest in
S2: students and kind of mentor them. And I would feel like,
S2: what's wrong with me? And then I'd come home, and
S2: if Chuck was quiet, I'd feel like he seems to
S2: be fine, when in reality he was quiet to cope.
S2: And so whenever he would share, it helped me kind
S2: of regulate, like, okay, we're both in this together and
S2: it's okay to struggle, but I would barrel through and
S2: I would, I would get short, maybe not not be
S2: as friendly or loving or asking questions, but I would
S2: barrel through. And then I would feel alone. And so
S2: when we both would share, even when it was different,
S2: it really helped us feel connected. Well.
S1: And I find that across the board for marriage and
S1: in our relationship, I don't have to have all the answers,
S1: thank goodness, because I never can. But if I just
S1: tell Ashley I'm having a hard time and I don't
S1: know what to say, I say that when I'm having
S1: a hard time personally, when I feel like there's tension
S1: in our relationship or we had a disagreement, or we're
S1: having a disagreement and letting her know that I care.
S1: But ash, I'm sorry, I really don't know what to say,
S1: but I feel kind of upset, kind of mad, and
S1: I'm just processing through it. That does a lot to
S1: let her know that she's not alone in working on
S1: the relationship.
S3: Thanks for being with us on building relationships with Dr.
S3: Gary Chapman. Our guests are Chuck and Ashley Elliott, authors
S3: of I Used to Be. You can find out more
S3: at Building relationships.us.
S5: Well, Chuck and Ashley. We know that many times in
S5: our grief we cry out to God, and sometimes it
S5: seems like he's silent. And that can be painful for us.
S5: Have you all experienced that or what would you say
S5: to that?
S2: Certainly. I want to start, though, by thinking about how
S2: I feel whenever I am connected to God, because that's
S2: helped me in this process. So I typically feel connected
S2: to God whenever I read the word and it starts
S2: to come alive. And maybe I'll want to reread a passage,
S2: I'll sit with it, or maybe want to write something
S2: down or send a verse to someone. And in our loss,
S2: especially after our second loss, I experienced pain, particularly with
S2: a few types of verses. But one was Psalm 3418
S2: and it says, the Lord is near to the brokenhearted.
S2: And I had sent that verse to people. I had
S2: believed it, but in this loss I really felt a distance,
S2: and I took it. I often will read, and I'll
S2: kind of pray a little bit. I'm like, Lord, I'm
S2: holding on to your word that says you're near, but
S2: I don't feel you near. And so I would kind
S2: of struggle in the tension, but then I wouldn't feel
S2: like it came alive. I wouldn't feel like writing it
S2: down or sending it to someone. And so I felt
S2: a distance or a struggle that at the time I
S2: couldn't articulate even as well as I did just there
S2: as I'm stumbling through. But I realized I wanted to
S2: dig more. And so I said, Lord, I go to
S2: your word. Not because it makes me feel better in
S2: every moment, but because it is my guide and it
S2: is worthy, and I am going to align my life
S2: to it, even whenever it doesn't make sense. And so
S2: I kept going back to God's Word, and I saw David.
S2: He questioned God in multiple psalms, but at the end
S2: of the psalm, he'd kind of wrap it up and say,
S2: yet I will praise you. Says, why have you forsaken me, God?
S2: Yet I will praise you. And that struck a chord
S2: with me, said, Lord, I want to be that way.
S2: Even though I'm grieving, even though I don't feel you,
S2: I want to praise you. And then as I read
S2: through Jobe, I was drawn to Jobe. I wasn't drawn
S2: to his wife. His wife said, honey, why don't you
S2: curse God and die? And I didn't want to be
S2: that way.
S1: Thanks for not doing that. Appreciate that.
S2: I wanted to draw near to God and I wanted
S2: to be faithful. And I saw that we get the
S2: scripture where we could see the enemy's attack in job's life.
S2: We could see that God still love Jobe, even though
S2: he was silent in job's life there for a season.
S2: And then we saw that God was worthy throughout all
S2: of it. And so a phrase that God kind of
S2: put on my heart during one of these seasons, whenever
S2: I was pursuing him and it was more dry, it
S2: felt like it was more quiet. But I came upon
S2: this phrase God is worthy before God is worthy. Before
S2: I get an answered prayer. God is worthy before my
S2: mourning seems turned into joyful dancing. And he's worthy before
S2: I even feel good enough to proclaim his goodness.
S5: Mm hmm. Chuck, if you were speaking to our listeners
S5: directly who are having this sense that, you know, I've
S5: cried out to God and God's not answering, it just
S5: seems like he's a million miles away. What would you
S5: say to them?
S1: God sees you right where you are. He sees you.
S1: If you're at home right now listening to this, and
S1: you're by yourself and your life has changed in a
S1: way or in ways that you couldn't have possibly imagined.
S1: He sees you, and he loves you, and he cares
S1: about you. He wants you to recognize him in these
S1: moments when you're sobbing and when you're not liking the
S1: way that you look, he wants you to recognize him
S1: and call out to him right now, in this moment,
S1: just as much as if you're at church and you're
S1: sitting on the front row and they're playing a worship
S1: song or a hymn or something that you really connect to.
S1: He wants to connect with you in these moments just
S1: the same way. And he does. He does show up.
S1: It doesn't always feel like the ways that we want
S1: it to. And I echo what Ashley said just a
S1: few moments ago, that when we see in Scripture, when
S1: we continue to go back to him like David did,
S1: like Jobe did, he's there with us and he loves us,
S1: and he sees our pain, and he still loves you.
S1: He hasn't forgotten about you. It doesn't mean that you're done.
S1: It doesn't mean you don't have a next step. Even
S1: though it might feel like you don't know what that
S1: next step might be.
S2: And even though we feel like God is a million
S2: miles away, like we're not less spiritual. Like that's a
S2: normal process. That's a great question. Life. And I think
S2: sometimes we don't talk about it. We just wait until
S2: we talk about the testimony. And I think there is
S2: a testimony to just saying, God, I'm going to keep walking.
S2: Like this morning I was walking for a little bit
S2: and I was walking slow, and I was like, you know,
S2: sometimes it's okay to just show up anyway, even if
S2: your prayers aren't as passionate, even if the Scripture doesn't
S2: come alive quite as much, there is blessing and just
S2: showing up before the Lord because he is worthy. But
S2: it's also okay that it's hard and it's not always
S2: the same picture of of beauty and excitement.
S7: Yeah.
S5: Feeling God's presence is not the only evidence that God
S5: is with us. It's one of the things I hear
S5: you saying in the book. You talk about grief, lies.
S5: That is how grief lies to us sometimes. So what
S5: are those lies and how can we overcome those lies?
S1: One of the big ones we see with many people
S1: in ourselves is it tells us that we should isolate,
S1: that we don't need to be around community. Community wouldn't understand.
S1: The people in my church wouldn't care. My family members
S1: wouldn't show up if I called or text them.
S2: Or even that we will be better off. They will
S2: be better off because I'm unstable and I might be
S2: a ticking time bomb. So isolation is better for everybody.
S1: It comes so much to do with community, and we
S1: talk about that a lot in the book that we
S1: need people around us, but we have to also understand
S1: that the people around us may not be perfect. Honestly,
S1: they're not going to be perfect. Neither are we. But
S1: we still need community. But grief can convince us that
S1: things are worse than they are. It can convince us
S1: that we don't have a future. It can convince us
S1: of a lot of things.
S2: And grief, lies and says that no one understands what
S2: we're going through, no one understands. And then kind of
S2: going back to that cycle in the circle of I
S2: should isolate, no one cares. And and that's our negative
S2: space talking. And whenever we can bring God into that
S2: and say, no, Lord, I am going to go to
S2: this one person, I'm not going to accept that. That
S2: can be helpful, but especially realizing that grief has some themes.
S2: Our negative space has some themes can can help us
S2: pull out of it.
S1: And absolutely that God doesn't care about us and that
S1: God isn't a good God and he doesn't see what's
S1: going on in our lives.
S2: Yeah, these are lies that come at us and we
S2: want to be prepared for them. We want to have
S2: an answer to be able to say no. I have
S2: this scripture that I've memorized. One is God's way is perfect.
S2: All the Lord's promises prove true. He is a shield
S2: to all who look to him for protection. And so
S2: sometimes we need a shield from our own thoughts, and
S2: so we can call on the Lord to say, this
S2: doesn't sound right. So I'm going to bring it to God,
S2: and I'm going to bring his God, God's word, to
S2: my mind to help bring me comfort.
S5: Yeah, choosing to believe God's Word rather than the lies
S5: that are flashing through our minds. So part of what
S5: I hear you saying, yeah, you have an interesting term
S5: in the book, Switch theory. What is that and how
S5: can it help us navigate our grief?
S2: We call it switch theory because we switch back and
S2: forth between this positive and negative space. So in most relationships,
S2: we begin in a positive space where we have positive thoughts,
S2: feelings and behavior.
S1: But in life we all have unmet expectations. And when
S1: that happens, we can tend to move towards a negative
S1: space with negative thoughts, feelings and behaviors.
S2: And it's normal to switch back and forth between this
S2: positive negative space. And that's why we call it switch theory.
S2: But then it is everyone's goal to be in a
S2: positive space. And sometimes we'll do some really negative things
S2: like turn to alcohol or avoid or whatever it might
S2: be to momentarily feel like we're happy or we're in
S2: a positive space, but we really want to think long term,
S2: and we want to think about God and what God
S2: wants us to do and be. And because God wants
S2: us to be in a positive space, but not just
S2: in the short term, he wants us to build a
S2: life in his presence and a life that's filled with
S2: joy and peace and hope.
S1: Ultimately, because we want to live in this space where
S1: we have hope, where we're positive about our faith, our goals,
S1: and the relationships around us.
S2: Yeah, and a positive space is deeper than just a
S2: good mood. So people have asked us, you know, why
S2: don't you just call it like a positive mood or mindset?
S2: But it's deeper and it's not just our thoughts and feelings,
S2: but our values are kind of wrapped in there in
S2: our beliefs. And so in a positive space, we'll tend
S2: to believe I can reach my goals. God is good,
S2: I love church, and then in a negative space will
S2: tend to feel like I am too tired. I am
S2: never going to be enough. I can't do it. God
S2: isn't there. God isn't true. And so we'll break down
S2: and we'll defeat ourselves. And so if we start to recognize,
S2: especially in our grief, I'm in a negative space that's
S2: less personal then that identity attack that comes. It says
S2: I'm not enough. When we recognize I'm in a negative space,
S2: there's some practical things that we need. We need God.
S2: And oftentimes we're like Adam and Eve. We go and
S2: we hide in our shame. But we can call out
S2: to God, because what we see with Adam and Eve
S2: is he came and pursued them and says, where are you?
S2: And God is asking us that question as well, like,
S2: where are you? Why aren't you calling out to me?
S2: Because I will help you. But we end up recognizing
S2: God if we're in the negative space calling on him,
S2: and he can help us move back to this positive space.
S2: But sometimes we just get so stuck there that we
S2: don't think to pray. And that's been one of the
S2: big things I've noticed recently in my counseling and my
S2: speaking work, that so many of us don't pray. All
S2: these spaces, all the times we have certain areas where
S2: we will pray, but especially if there's shame around the issue,
S2: we won't pray. It will get stuck in that negative space.
S2: And this is where anxiety and depression and lack of
S2: sleep really creeps in and starts to take away from
S2: our mental health.
S5: Chuck is a pastor. What encouragement do you have for
S5: people who are stuck and who do feel that they
S5: can't move forward after a loss, for example. Just recently
S5: I talked with a lady whose husband committed suicide, and
S5: even though it's been three years or so, she just
S5: feels like still she's stuck. She just feels like there's
S5: no future for her. How do you respond to people
S5: who really feel like they're stuck and they can't move forward?
S1: Well, I want to start off and say that people
S1: should have empathy for themselves and realize that something major
S1: in your life has changed. You loved somebody deeply and
S1: now you don't have them. So not putting pressure on
S1: yourself to feel like you need to be able to
S1: go and do whatever you think you should be able
S1: to do, or whatever society tells you that you should
S1: be able to do so. Being patient with yourself and
S1: understanding it's okay that it still hurts. If something changes
S1: in your life, you lose somebody. Even three years later,
S1: ten years later, it's changed you. Unfortunately, people will wait
S1: until things go back to the way they were before
S1: they experienced a loss. And it doesn't happen that way
S1: because you're a different person. But if we were going
S1: to be practical and I was counseling or coaching an
S1: individual who had something similar to what you just said,
S1: I'd talk about, what does it look like for you
S1: to be healthy? What does it look like for you
S1: to be motivated to be the strong person that you
S1: know that you are, and you want to feel like
S1: you are? And we set up some goals. So if
S1: that means I'd like to be socializing, I'd like to
S1: go on a trip. Let's talk about what that looks like.
S1: Let's think about when that could happen. It doesn't mean
S1: that it all has to happen right now. But we're
S1: going to say, okay, you'd like to be able to
S1: go on that trip. You always wanted to go on
S1: with your spouse, but now there's this block. Okay. What
S1: if you invited a friend to go with you, who
S1: loves you and wants to be with you, and you
S1: made this part of your memory for that loved one?
S1: Or you feel like you can't go to church and
S1: sit in that certain section because it reminds you of
S1: something that you loved, or someone that you loved and lost.
S1: You don't have to go through all of the steps,
S1: but what we do is we help people to think
S1: deeply about what they loved about the relationship or the
S1: position that they have that they loved. And we're going
S1: to talk about what does it mean to incorporate those
S1: things back into our lives, even though we know we
S1: can't go back and change the situation.
S2: And we notice when people are stuck in that negative space,
S2: in that place where they just don't have hope, that
S2: they have a lot of patterned thinking and behavior. And
S2: so we do use the switch theory to help people
S2: understand what their patterns are like, what are those repetitive
S2: negative thoughts that have them down. And then we try
S2: to help them reframe finding scriptures to help them finding,
S2: you know, connection or community to help pull them out
S2: of some of those thinking patterns.
S1: And we hinted to this a little bit earlier, we
S1: try to tell people that they can feel weak and
S1: be strong at the same time. It doesn't mean that
S1: you are incapable of taking steps just because you feel weak.
S1: Both of those can happen at the same time, and
S1: we draw from that when we think about what does
S1: it mean to make a game plan?
S3: We hope today's broadcast is encouraging you. Tell a friend
S3: about our program with Chuck and Ashley Elliott. You can
S3: find more ways to strengthen relationships online at Building relationships.us. Dr.
S3: Gary Chapman is our host, author of the New York
S3: Times best seller, The Five Love Languages, and our featured resources.
S3: The Elliot's book I used to be blank, just go
S3: to building relationships.us.
S5: Ashley is a licensed counselor. You've helped a lot of
S5: people navigate through serious grief and loss, but, you know,
S5: there are people who are very reluctant to go see
S5: a counselor. What do you say to people who hesitate,
S5: for whatever reason, in terms of actually reaching out to
S5: a counselor for help?
S2: Well, we like to encourage people to be curious. That's
S2: a phrase that I say frequently. And if we're curious
S2: about why we don't want to go to counseling, then
S2: we can explore those needs. So, for example, if someone says,
S2: I don't really want to go to counseling because it's scary,
S2: I don't want someone to know my business, then we
S2: can kind of work through that. Like, how do we
S2: navigate that in a more private way? Okay, so for example,
S2: I offer virtual counseling. So this is helpful for people
S2: who don't want their car to be seen at a
S2: counseling office. But if someone is worried, you know, about
S2: just the counseling relationship and how much they share, then
S2: reminding them that they get to choose what to share
S2: and we can even prepare some statements for them. So
S2: it might be, hey, I'm really not comfortable talking about
S2: that today. And so that empowers them and helps them
S2: to kind of work through that. But again, then we're
S2: looking at the good of counseling that it's okay, that
S2: it's scary and it's scary because it's vulnerable. But vulnerable
S2: isn't always a bad thing. And it might be something
S2: that we need. And so when we talk about the
S2: positive and negative space, when we get in this negative space,
S2: we tend to feel like we're out of options. And
S2: so for someone who hasn't tried counseling, if we get
S2: a little bit back toward that positive space and we see, hey,
S2: this is an option I haven't tried, maybe this will
S2: help give hope. And if you try it and it
S2: doesn't work, it's like a lot of relationships. You know,
S2: just the first person we talked to may not be
S2: the best for us. And so it's okay to move
S2: on to a different counselor or a different pastor or
S2: a different type of service so that we can keep
S2: trying to make progress.
S5: I think if we recognize that we all have different gifts,
S5: different training, you know, and counselors, I think you have
S5: to be gifted to be a counselor and as well
S5: as have being trained. And so often the counselor will
S5: have ideas and concepts and help you think more clearly
S5: than would you know, just someone who who doesn't have
S5: that heart and doesn't have that training?
S2: Yeah for sure.
S5: Now there are people who who want to help, you know,
S5: some friend or some family member has gone through a loss,
S5: and then they're grieving and they want to help, but
S5: often they don't know how to help. So what are
S5: some of the things that that, that, that they might
S5: do and what are some things maybe they should not
S5: do in an effort to help friends and family who
S5: are grieving?
S1: That's a that's a great question. You don't have to
S1: fix it because you can't fix it. Sometimes when people
S1: show up after a loss, they show up to the
S1: family member or the friends house, and they think they
S1: have to have these eloquent words that are just going
S1: to soothe them, and it's going to take away the pain.
S1: You can't you're not going to just change it. You're
S1: not just going to take it away. So taking that
S1: pressure and that expectation off the table is a great
S1: thing to do before you even start engaging. Another thing
S1: is sometimes we think that people don't want to see us.
S1: They don't want to hear from us. And if I
S1: reach out to them and ask how they're doing, I'm
S1: going to bring something up and make it even more difficult.
S1: We found that not to be true. People want to
S1: be seen. People want to know that even if they're
S1: having a pretty good day, you remember the loved one
S1: that they lost. Some real practical things you can do
S1: as well. That's kind of the big picture of the
S1: way to look at it. But many times when you
S1: lose somebody, people will come to you and they'll say, hey,
S1: let me know if you need anything. And my experience
S1: and our years in working with people, people don't respond
S1: to that. Ask and say, oh, by the way, I
S1: need you to go to the grocery store for me. Oh,
S1: by the way, can you do this? Can you pick
S1: up my kids? That doesn't typically happen, but if you
S1: tell them that there's several things that you could do
S1: for them and you make some suggestions or some offers,
S1: what if somebody just lost their parent who had been
S1: in the hospital for a while and they were in hospice?
S1: But that individual also has little kids. What if you
S1: offered to babysit those little kids, that five, six, seven
S1: year old kiddo who takes a lot of energy, but
S1: maybe that parent could use a little bit of a
S1: break and you babysit, or you bring a gift card
S1: for food instead of food itself, because that gives them
S1: the freedom and the ways that they can say, okay,
S1: I don't want to have the pressure of a fridge
S1: full of food, but I do have to eat. How
S1: do you do some of those practical things to meet
S1: their needs and make suggestions? That way they don't also
S1: take on the job of how to make you feel
S1: good about the help that you're offering.
S2: Yeah, for me, I often just said thanks. If somebody says, hey,
S2: is there anything I can do? Like, oh, thanks, I'm good.
S2: But I wish secretly that they would know my need
S2: and ask for something that would be really helpful. So
S2: for us especially, it was babysitting early on with some
S2: of the miscarriage. But whatever the friendship is, you know,
S2: you know that person, you know what you can give
S2: and you know what they might need. And that's a
S2: beautiful relational thing. And so you can pick if you're
S2: in a really busy season, the gift card is a
S2: great go to. But if you have time, then that's
S2: something that you can do. That's beautiful. And so I
S2: heard someone recently say, a friend of mine literally got
S2: on a zoom call and just sat with me while
S2: I cried. And it was beautiful. And I think how
S2: wonderful to just be there and say, I'm not there
S2: to listen to you talk if you don't want to,
S2: but I'm here to just be. And so if you
S2: can physically go to their house, or if you can
S2: do something that you know, that's probably a burden to them,
S2: then that will speak so much more than you trying
S2: to say the right words. Because often when we try
S2: to say the right words, we're trying to say spiritual words,
S2: which then end up making the person feel bad. So
S2: we might say, God's got a plan, or God's got this,
S2: or the Lord's near to the brokenhearted, right? And that
S2: person might be like, but I don't feel like he's near.
S2: And not to say we shouldn't use scripture, but just
S2: knowing that sometimes we're trying to meet our own needs.
S2: I need to feel good. So I'm just going to say,
S2: let me know if you need anything so I can
S2: feel like I helped or I just gave them some
S2: spiritual wisdom. But if we really lean in and think
S2: about what the person may need, they probably need connection
S2: more than anything. And if you can give them that
S2: in a unique way that shows them that you see them,
S2: it's going to be really powerful.
S5: What are some things we really should not do and
S5: or maybe not say? You've alluded to some of that.
S5: Sometimes we say scriptures and we have good intentions, but
S5: it may not be the right time for that particular scripture,
S5: I don't know. You have other thoughts on that?
S2: Yeah. One of the things that someone said to me was,
S2: you know, God must have needed an angel. And I
S2: just found that perplexing theologically. I'm not sure that's how
S2: it happens. Actually, I'm pretty certain that's not how it happens.
S2: But in the moment, I started to realize that you
S2: hear people's wonky spiritual views, and also they're trying to
S2: help you, and they may not even think through what
S2: they're saying completely. And so, on top of my grief,
S2: I felt like I was questioning, like, okay, God, did
S2: you you get me pregnant to kill my baby and
S2: turn it into an angel? Like, I don't think so.
S2: I don't think that's how it happens. But if I
S2: weren't spiritually mature enough to filter through that, I think
S2: that I would would just be confused in my theology.
S2: And I think that's something that makes it even more
S2: delicate for me. I want to be careful when people
S2: are wounded, not to try to sound so spiritual that
S2: I'm giving them a spiritual Band-Aid that actually might pull
S2: off the skin and, and impact their, their fragile faith. Well, and.
S1: Actually, in our processing this just about a week ago,
S1: sometimes people will say everything happens for a reason. That
S1: can be difficult. Okay, so there's a reason to this,
S1: but I don't really know what it is. But it's
S1: true that God can take a pain and take a
S1: hurt and not waste it and do something with it,
S1: but it doesn't mean that, well, there's some reason out there,
S1: you just have to accept it. And so many of
S1: those responses and that input isn't really helpful.
S2: And people say everything happens for a reason. I think
S2: what they often truly mean is God makes everything happen
S2: for a specific reason. And we know from Scripture that
S2: God's grieved by sin. And so we can imply that
S2: God is not pleased with everything that happens. But when
S2: you're grieving and someone said everything happens for a reason,
S2: God allows things, you know, then we then we start
S2: to say, okay, God wanted this. And so for us,
S2: we kind of filtered through and said, yes, we can
S2: acknowledge God did allow this because God is sovereign and
S2: he could have stopped it. But I know that God
S2: is good, even though this doesn't feel good. But it
S2: doesn't mean that God wanted this particular sin or pain
S2: or whatever the loss is. And so I don't have
S2: to ascribe to that thought. And so whenever we give
S2: ourselves the permission to be curious about it, like, what
S2: is it that doesn't settle with me? We can survive
S2: with our faith intact. And I've seen so many people
S2: that said, I just didn't agree with that. And so
S2: I'm just not into organized religion. And when I'm listening
S2: to them, I go, I don't agree with that either.
S2: I think that was discernment. But let's just not throw
S2: out your faith, because some Christians said something that was
S2: under thought or underdeveloped and not super spiritual.
S7: Yeah.
S5: Now in the book you give a mental stability activity.
S5: Why did you give that exercise and why is that
S5: so important?
S1: Absolutely. Because whenever we lose somebody or something that we loved,
S1: it makes us feel unstable often. So what Ashley did
S1: is she developed this exercise. I'll let her tell you
S1: a little bit more about it, but it helps people
S1: to identify what do they look like when they're mentally stable,
S1: and what do they look like when they're mentally unstable?
S2: And so on one side of a piece of paper,
S2: you could write mentally stable, and on the other side
S2: you could write mentally unstable. And so basically that gives
S2: you a picture of you're going to look at yourself
S2: and how you think and behave differently when you are
S2: at your best, when you're most mentally stable. And compare
S2: that to when you're at your worst, when you're less
S2: mentally stable. Now, people don't always like to think about
S2: themselves as mentally unstable, but we throw it out there
S2: that all of us are more mentally stable and less
S2: mentally stable from time to time. So we're not trying
S2: to to diagnose or to say that anybody is terrible
S2: through this. But there are some remarkable differences that we
S2: can notice whenever we look at ourselves. One of the
S2: things that I found is that people will sometimes take
S2: fewer showers when they're at their worst. So when we
S2: look at the basic hygiene and the things that we do,
S2: we notice that there's some differences. So if someone says, oh,
S2: I shower daily whenever I'm at my best, but I
S2: actually skip a shower whenever I'm at my worst, then
S2: that gives you insight like, oh, I never drew a
S2: correlation between me taking a shower and me feeling bad.
S2: And so it helps us to understand, oh, maybe I'm
S2: in a negative space whenever this happens and personalizes it
S2: a little bit. So it's not so attaching to that
S2: identity level and go, okay, here I am again. I'm
S2: in this negative space. I'm starting to feel worse. What
S2: can I do? And so we can look at whether
S2: you're taking a shower or how you eat and exercise,
S2: your spiritual practices, your sleep, all of these different practical things.
S2: And look at the differences. And once you have your
S2: list completed, you can step back and a laser focus
S2: out and and decide one thing you can do whenever
S2: you're in that negative space. When you feel a little
S2: bit less mentally unstable, what's that one thing that's maybe
S2: the easiest that you can do? Oftentimes people say, I'll
S2: go ahead and take the shower and see if it helps.
S2: And so if it makes one slight adjustment toward that
S2: positive space, then that can help us build momentum and
S2: find our way back toward that place of stability.
S1: And it builds agency. When people often feel like they're
S1: a victim of the things that are going on around them.
S1: One of the things for the mental stability, instability or
S1: work that we do is people often isolate. So if
S1: you know that I'm not making phone calls or text
S1: messages or doing those things when I'm mentally unstable, so
S1: what if I tried to reach out to somebody just
S1: a little bit, just respond to the text message that
S1: you haven't responded to yet and see what that does,
S1: because it shows that there are things that you can
S1: do to move to being stable, moving to a positive space.
S3: Thanks for joining us today for building relationships with Dr.
S3: Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, The
S3: Five Love Languages. Our guests are Chuck and Ashley Elliott.
S3: They've written our featured resource, I Used to Be. You
S3: can find out more at building relationships.us.
S5: You know, sometimes Chuck and Ashley individuals, when they face
S5: a loss, feel a lot of anger as an emotion.
S5: Can you explain what you call the anger wall?
S1: Whenever we go through a loss, it just presents itself
S1: in different ways. And anger is definitely one of the
S1: ways that it shows up. So in the book we
S1: talk about this anger wall. So imagine a wall that
S1: is made of bricks and across the front of that wall,
S1: real big and angry lettering, it says anger. So what's
S1: underneath that? If you were to pull out one of
S1: those bricks and you could see through the wall now,
S1: and there'd be something written on the other side of
S1: where that brick used to be, what would it be?
S1: For me, when I was angry because we lost little ones,
S1: I could say insecurity. I could pull out another brick
S1: and maybe it would say I felt like a failure.
S1: A lot of times we put up this wall because
S1: anger makes us feel strong. Whenever somebody or something that
S1: you loved is violated, taken, hurt, abused, whatever it might be,
S1: you want to feel like your strength can come back.
S1: And anger is a quick way to feel powerful. But
S1: long term, it actually builds a wall between you and
S1: other people. So if we can identify what's on the
S1: other side of that anger wall, what's behind it? When
S1: we take out one of those bricks, we can address that,
S1: and then we can have better relationships.
S2: And sometimes when we name our feelings, we gain insight.
S2: And so you can just say, I'm angry and I
S2: feel powerful. But if you say I feel embarrassed, why
S2: do you feel embarrassed? I feel embarrassed that you blink, blink, blink. Right?
S2: And so then we can say, could you please do
S2: this differently? Sometimes when we feel angry, we just feel powerful.
S2: And even if we were to talk to someone about
S2: an embarrassment, we're going to say, I feel angry. You're
S2: such a jerk when you always. And then we're having
S2: a power struggle. And so we get into the anger
S2: wall and we feel powerful. We put our walls up
S2: and we want to keep everybody out. But that causes disconnection.
S2: And so we want to build our relationships. We don't
S2: want to build walls that will tear down that connection
S2: between us and our loved ones.
S1: Because anger is asked is complaining about something, but it's
S1: not asking for what you want. Often, Ashley and I
S1: will say that in the marriage workshops that we do,
S1: that complaining is not the same thing as asking for
S1: what you want. Because I complain, I feel strong, but
S1: if I ask for what I want, I have the
S1: opportunity to be told no, which makes me feel vulnerable again.
S5: We'll talk about the power of being vulnerable. What does
S5: that accomplish?
S1: That's where relationships really thrive. Because if we're just putting
S1: up this front of what we think that the person
S1: needs from us, and we're not being honest about what
S1: we're feeling at, transparency just isn't there. And Ashley and
S1: I both know we can feel it from the other
S1: person whenever we're not being vulnerable, whenever we're shut down.
S1: And it impacts so many things, it impacts how we're
S1: a parent. It impacts how well we speak or write
S1: or we do it, our jobs or whatever it might be.
S1: But vulnerability really is a superpower. It's a strength. And
S1: I know, especially for men and even women, the people
S1: that I, that I work with, they see vulnerability as weakness,
S1: but it's just being honest about the things that you're
S1: going through. And when you're honest about it, then you
S1: can really build some strength that you're proud of and
S1: you don't feel like you're hiding. You don't feel like
S1: people don't know the real you.
S2: And we've had a lot of people tell us that
S2: our book is super vulnerable. And because of that and
S2: the vulnerability that we share, it's scary. Sometimes it's scary
S2: to have people talk about our book and bring up
S2: the stories like, oh, it's kind of painful. And you'd think, oh,
S2: we're just these people that want to always be vulnerable.
S2: But I think that's a myth, too, because anyone who's
S2: vulnerable is kind of baring their soul, and it's a
S2: little scary, but it's also connecting. And so for us,
S2: even yesterday, I was having a little bit of a
S2: hard time being vulnerable and being needy, and I have
S2: to keep coaching myself to do that. So we don't
S2: want to, you know, cause listeners to think, oh, well,
S2: there's these people out there who they find it easy
S2: to be vulnerable. I think that's a myth and it
S2: is a hard thing, but it is worth it. And
S2: it's it's for our relationship that we can be vulnerable.
S1: It's a constant that we're working on. Because one of
S1: the things I love most about Ashley is about how
S1: strong and independent and smart that she is, and that's
S1: part of who she is. But her being vulnerable can
S1: be difficult for her. So I have to kind of
S1: help with that and say, it's okay to need me,
S1: and asking for what you need in those moments helps. Yeah.
S1: Was that like.
S2: Yesterday when you were telling me that I needed you
S2: and I didn't want to need.
S1: You? I was trying to convince you. And I think
S1: you might have turned around and walked away for a
S1: couple of minutes, but.
S2: Yeah, it might have almost come to an argument. Yeah, like,
S2: I know I need you and I don't want to
S2: need you. It's hard. So it's important to be vulnerable.
S2: But it's also okay that it takes effort and takes
S2: self-control and it takes self-regulation to even push ourselves to
S2: go ahead and be vulnerable because it's so easy to
S2: put those walls up.
S5: In chapter nine, you write about the need for developing
S5: new skills to face loss. What are some examples of
S5: the skills that you've had to learn?
S2: Well, there's different types of losses. So the skills are
S2: going to be individualized. But for example you mentioned earlier
S2: that a woman was a widow. And so this would
S2: be a new unwanted title like no one is, you know,
S2: 14 years old and thinks, oh, one day hopefully I
S2: will be a widow or divorced or some other negative
S2: word unemployed, something that feels really hard for them. And
S2: so they will have some unexpected new skills needed for
S2: whatever role that is, whatever title that they've been given
S2: that's unwanted. And so for someone who's a widow, they
S2: may find it difficult to balance a checkbook or to
S2: fill up their gas tank. And I had a friend
S2: recently that she was sharing a story about how when
S2: her husband died, it was a couple of the really
S2: small things that felt so huge for her. It was
S2: so hard to mow her lawn, and even though she
S2: had enough money to hire a lawn person, she still
S2: just found it overwhelming. And it wasn't because it was
S2: the physical task of getting the lawn mowed that she
S2: needed the skill of picking up the phone and making
S2: a phone call. It was that vulnerability that was left
S2: this hole that her husband had filled, a role that
S2: he filled in her life, that now left her lacking
S2: and left her feeling sad and feeling that there was
S2: a void. And so acknowledging that those skills that we
S2: need are attached to some pain helps us to understand, like, okay,
S2: I'm not an idiot for feeling like I don't know
S2: how to call a person to mow my grass. It's
S2: something that's deeper. It's tied to my grief and my identity.
S2: And so many.
S1: Times we have friends for a long period of time.
S1: What if you had a childhood friend who had been
S1: your go to person for a long time, and they
S1: lived in the same city as you did, and then
S1: they move across the country? Okay, it's not the death
S1: of a loved one, but it's a change in the
S1: relationship that you're grieving. So you might have to develop
S1: some new skills to ask somebody new to go to lunch,
S1: or to go to coffee or to see what they're doing.
S1: And if they have dinner plans and you have another
S1: couple that you want to connect with. So sometimes we
S1: don't give ourselves permission to recognize that it's difficult and
S1: we're going to have to adapt and learn some new skills.
S1: Anything from mowing yards to developing new relationships to whatever
S1: it might be.
S5: Well, we're coming to the end of our time together
S5: on the program. But let me ask this question of
S5: each of you. If our listeners could take one nugget
S5: of truth away from our conversation, what would you want
S5: them to remember?
S1: I'd want them to know that they can feel weak
S1: and be strong at the same time. That they don't
S1: have to have it figured out. They don't have to
S1: know exactly what this is going to look like because
S1: it's new. You're not an expert at experiencing grief, and
S1: that's okay. But God sees you. He knows right where
S1: you are. And I'd also want to remind people that
S1: they're not just doing this for themselves when they process
S1: their grief and work through things in a healthy way,
S1: they're doing it so they can be open up to relationships,
S1: maybe for their kids, their spouse, their coworkers. Because when
S1: we do this work and it is work, we're more
S1: emotionally available and we're not shutting down parts of our
S1: heart that people really need.
S2: And if we can bring God into the middle of it,
S2: God wants to be in the midst of our negative spaces,
S2: and that's going to be the quickest way and the
S2: most wholesome way to move back toward a positive space.
S5: Well, I want to thank you both, Chuck and Ashley,
S5: for being with us today and for writing this book.
S5: And I want to challenge our listeners not only to
S5: reflect upon what they've heard today, but also to get
S5: the book work through it. I think anyone who has
S5: suffered loss, not just of death, we've talked a good
S5: bit about death, but a lot of all kind of losses,
S5: and we're trying to struggle with that. You'll find this
S5: book to be very helpful, so let me challenge you
S5: to do that. So Chuck and Ashley, thanks for being
S5: with us today.
S1: It's been an honor. Thank you so much.
S2: Thanks.
S4: So vulnerable, so real. And the featured resource is exactly
S4: like that. It's titled I Used to Be Blank by
S4: Chuck and Ashley. You can find out more about it
S4: at Building Relationships US. The subtitle is how to navigate
S4: large and small Losses in Life and find your path
S4: forward again. Go to building relationships.us.
S5: And next week, how do you give your children a
S5: stronger spiritual legacy than you received when you were a child?
S3: Don't miss the encouragement. In one week, our thanks to
S3: our production team, Steve Wick and Janice. Backing building relationships
S3: with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio
S3: in Chicago in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of
S3: Moody Bible and.
UU: Thanks for listening.