1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:07,680 S1: Hey, hop in the Wayback Machine with me today at 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,959 S1: the radio backyard fence, and let's go back to the 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,800 S1: first century. And here's what I want you to do. 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:15,640 S1: I want you to think of a question that you 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,560 S1: would ask Mary, the mother of Jesus. You can ask 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,720 S1: her anything. What would you want to know? Today on 7 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,800 S1: Chris Fabry Live, we go back to the archives, because 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,440 S1: I saw something in my journal the other day. I 9 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,360 S1: wrote down, I've only got like five lines to write. 10 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,040 S1: I wrote down Amy or Ewing was great, and when 11 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,800 S1: a guest shows up in my journal, I pay attention 12 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,000 S1: to that. So we're going back to that conversation we 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,720 S1: had a year ago. Our programs recorded. Don't call us today. 14 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,920 S1: Disregard any dated information that you hear from last year, 15 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,360 S1: but I think this is going to be a great exercise. 16 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,040 S1: We're going to consider Mary, the mother of Jesus. Her life, 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,320 S1: her example, her willingness to take on the task God 18 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:03,900 S1: gave her of bearing his sinless son. The devotional that 19 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:07,980 S1: came out a couple of years ago is titled Mary's Voice. 20 00:01:07,980 --> 00:01:11,259 S1: That's our featured resource today. So on this Monday before 21 00:01:11,260 --> 00:01:13,660 S1: Christmas Day, we're going to take a look at Mary 22 00:01:13,660 --> 00:01:16,540 S1: and what we can learn from her. Let's get started 23 00:01:16,540 --> 00:01:19,500 S1: with the thank you to the team. Ryan McConaughey does 24 00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:24,300 S1: all things technical. Tricia is our producer. Lisa is helping 25 00:01:24,300 --> 00:01:28,100 S1: out as well. No phone answer today. Josh is not here, 26 00:01:28,420 --> 00:01:31,140 S1: so don't call us. But I do have another phone 27 00:01:31,140 --> 00:01:34,420 S1: number that you can call and a website that you. 28 00:01:34,540 --> 00:01:37,540 S1: I hope you will have visit today. Not only to 29 00:01:37,580 --> 00:01:41,259 S1: find out about our program and about our guest today, 30 00:01:41,740 --> 00:01:44,740 S1: but also how to support us. You hear this from 31 00:01:44,740 --> 00:01:48,660 S1: every ministry and every nonprofit. December is a big month, 32 00:01:49,100 --> 00:01:51,100 S1: you know. Would you support us before the end of 33 00:01:51,100 --> 00:01:53,900 S1: the year? Give an end of the year gift, and 34 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:57,500 S1: I want to humbly come before you and say, we 35 00:01:57,500 --> 00:02:00,280 S1: really need your help in December if we want to 36 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,480 S1: continue doing this program and and coming into your cubicle 37 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,120 S1: or your living room or your car or however you 38 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:14,040 S1: hear us. If you listen to the podcast, call 86695 Fabry. 39 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,120 S1: You can give a gift that way. Or just go 40 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,160 S1: to Chris favorite org. Scroll down, you'll see how to 41 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,600 S1: be a friend. Give a one time gift or a 42 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,919 S1: partner gives a gift each month. And this month. All 43 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,120 S1: this month, we've been giving away David and Barbara Lehman's book, 44 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:34,200 S1: Hosanna in Excelsis. It's hymns and Devotions for the Christmas season. Obviously, 45 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,760 S1: we're not going to get to get this to you 46 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,040 S1: by Christmas Day, but this is one of those books 47 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,080 S1: I've been saying all month long. This is one of 48 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,520 S1: those books that you will want to keep around year 49 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,160 S1: after year and refer to it again and again. It's 50 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,200 S1: one of those legacy gifts. So call that number or 51 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,470 S1: go to the website 86695 Fabri or go to Chris. 52 00:02:59,550 --> 00:03:02,910 S1: And thanks for your support of the radio backyard fence. 53 00:03:03,669 --> 00:03:07,510 S1: Doctor Amy or Ewing is an international author, speaker, theologian, 54 00:03:07,510 --> 00:03:11,109 S1: and apologist who addresses the deep questions of our day 55 00:03:11,110 --> 00:03:15,390 S1: with meaningful answers found in the Christian faith. She's written 56 00:03:15,389 --> 00:03:18,430 S1: a number of books. Where is God in all the suffering? 57 00:03:18,830 --> 00:03:23,630 S1: Why trust the Bible? Another that came out last year. 58 00:03:23,710 --> 00:03:27,669 S1: Lead like the real you. Wisdom for women on finding 59 00:03:27,669 --> 00:03:32,630 S1: your voice, pursuing God's calling and leading with courage. Featured 60 00:03:32,630 --> 00:03:37,790 S1: resource today is Mary's voice. Advent reflections to contemplate the 61 00:03:37,790 --> 00:03:42,750 S1: coming of Christ. Find out more at Chris Fabry, Livorno, 62 00:03:43,510 --> 00:03:45,790 S1: doctor or Ewing? Welcome to the program. How are you 63 00:03:45,790 --> 00:03:46,510 S1: doing today? 64 00:03:47,070 --> 00:03:49,990 S2: Yeah. Oh, thank you so much. I'm doing really well 65 00:03:50,030 --> 00:03:51,950 S2: and thank you for having me on. 66 00:03:52,430 --> 00:03:54,750 S1: I would just let you read the phone book. I 67 00:03:54,750 --> 00:03:57,570 S1: could listen to your voice all day, all day long. 68 00:03:58,010 --> 00:04:01,170 S1: This book came out a year ago, and you've received 69 00:04:01,170 --> 00:04:05,410 S1: a lot of response from women and men, I assume. 70 00:04:05,450 --> 00:04:07,850 S1: Tell me about what some people have said about it. 71 00:04:08,930 --> 00:04:13,250 S2: Yeah, sure. So, um, the book is a devotional that 72 00:04:13,250 --> 00:04:15,490 S2: starts on the 1st of December and goes right through 73 00:04:15,490 --> 00:04:19,330 S2: to Christmas. And it's about kind of, I guess, preparing 74 00:04:19,330 --> 00:04:25,450 S2: ourselves through the advent season for Christmas. Um, by recentering 75 00:04:25,450 --> 00:04:29,810 S2: the voice of the Christian faiths most important female witness, Mary, 76 00:04:29,850 --> 00:04:33,450 S2: the mother of Jesus. And the kind of feedback I've 77 00:04:33,450 --> 00:04:39,370 S2: heard is from people just saying it's completely, I guess, 78 00:04:39,410 --> 00:04:48,370 S2: enlivened their imagination and excitement about who Jesus actually is, 79 00:04:48,370 --> 00:04:54,010 S2: what the incarnation really means. Um, others feeling kind of moved, 80 00:04:54,010 --> 00:04:58,270 S2: I guess, by realizing that we've often, particularly in the 81 00:04:58,270 --> 00:05:02,030 S2: Protestant church, overlooked Mary, perhaps out of a fear for 82 00:05:02,190 --> 00:05:04,990 S2: that we might end up worshipping her or, you know, 83 00:05:05,310 --> 00:05:08,670 S2: doing Mary too much. And because of that, we kind 84 00:05:08,670 --> 00:05:13,029 S2: of barely think about her. But yet her voice, her words, 85 00:05:13,070 --> 00:05:17,150 S2: her perspective are included in the New Testament as as 86 00:05:17,150 --> 00:05:20,830 S2: really important. And, you know, just help us engage with 87 00:05:20,830 --> 00:05:23,830 S2: with who the Lord is in a deeper way. Others 88 00:05:23,830 --> 00:05:28,670 S2: really enjoyed the art. The book has a beautiful reproduction 89 00:05:28,670 --> 00:05:31,990 S2: of a piece of art every day, a prayer and 90 00:05:32,029 --> 00:05:36,590 S2: a kind of reflection for the day on on Scripture. Yeah. 91 00:05:36,589 --> 00:05:39,390 S2: So others have said they felt able to give it 92 00:05:39,390 --> 00:05:43,790 S2: to unbelieving friends who are sort of spiritually open, because 93 00:05:44,029 --> 00:05:46,990 S2: Mary is still a cultural icon in the West. You know, 94 00:05:47,029 --> 00:05:50,030 S2: people know who she is and and feel like, oh, 95 00:05:50,070 --> 00:05:53,070 S2: that could be good. You know, recentering a woman's voice 96 00:05:53,330 --> 00:05:56,330 S2: a woman, particularly, who hasn't been listened to or, you know, 97 00:05:56,370 --> 00:06:03,050 S2: perhaps been a bit ignored. So lots of lots of different, um, perspectives. One, um, 98 00:06:03,290 --> 00:06:07,330 S2: person connected with politics in the US actually gave it 99 00:06:07,330 --> 00:06:11,930 S2: to a friend who was from a Catholic background who, um, 100 00:06:12,210 --> 00:06:15,650 S2: just actually ended up really kind of meeting the Lord 101 00:06:15,650 --> 00:06:18,969 S2: in a, in a new and powerful way and felt 102 00:06:19,010 --> 00:06:22,690 S2: able to access it because, you know, they felt a 103 00:06:22,690 --> 00:06:27,289 S2: resonance with Mary so that, yeah, lots and lots of feedback. 104 00:06:27,330 --> 00:06:28,770 S2: It's been really encouraging. 105 00:06:29,050 --> 00:06:31,490 S1: And I think that's going to happen again this year. 106 00:06:31,490 --> 00:06:34,370 S1: And I looked at the you pray. So yeah, that 107 00:06:34,490 --> 00:06:37,090 S1: the sales of it and it's is doing it's still 108 00:06:37,089 --> 00:06:39,890 S1: doing well again this year. So I wanted to have 109 00:06:39,890 --> 00:06:42,130 S1: you on just to kind of take us a little deeper. 110 00:06:42,130 --> 00:06:45,530 S1: And let me start with that word that you use. Voice. 111 00:06:45,690 --> 00:06:50,410 S1: Mary's voice. What is it about her voice that we've 112 00:06:50,410 --> 00:06:52,630 S1: missed that we need to hear. 113 00:06:53,070 --> 00:06:58,230 S2: Well, it's really interesting. You know, when you think about Mary. Perhaps. Well, immediately, 114 00:06:58,230 --> 00:07:00,109 S2: one of the things that springs to mind is a 115 00:07:00,150 --> 00:07:04,349 S2: kind of image, maybe from medieval art of a woman 116 00:07:04,350 --> 00:07:08,590 S2: in blue with a sort of perfect smile, maybe hovering, 117 00:07:08,790 --> 00:07:11,390 S2: you know, somewhere in the air, and a perfect sort 118 00:07:11,390 --> 00:07:15,190 S2: of cherubic baby on her hip, a kind of quite 119 00:07:15,230 --> 00:07:20,110 S2: unreal image. Or if you think about her in the 120 00:07:20,110 --> 00:07:24,510 S2: setting of nativity plays here in Britain, we traditionally every 121 00:07:24,510 --> 00:07:27,350 S2: school child is in a in a reenactment of the 122 00:07:27,350 --> 00:07:31,430 S2: Nativity at some point in December. And as a child, 123 00:07:31,430 --> 00:07:35,550 S2: I had one opportunity in those many reenactments to play Mary. 124 00:07:35,550 --> 00:07:41,030 S2: And for the entire hour long production, I didn't speak 125 00:07:41,070 --> 00:07:45,270 S2: a word. You know, Mary is this sort of static, passive, 126 00:07:45,270 --> 00:07:49,590 S2: mute figure. But when you actually open the New Testament, 127 00:07:49,590 --> 00:07:55,500 S2: what you discover is that Mary is a very active 128 00:07:55,500 --> 00:08:00,660 S2: person who speaks up, who questions, who you know, responds 129 00:08:00,660 --> 00:08:04,980 S2: and demonstrates great faith. And we actually even have her 130 00:08:04,980 --> 00:08:09,860 S2: words recorded for us in Luke's gospel, her Magnificat. And 131 00:08:09,900 --> 00:08:12,940 S2: we have an interaction between her and Jesus recorded in 132 00:08:12,940 --> 00:08:17,500 S2: John's Gospel at the wedding at Cana, of course. And then, um, 133 00:08:17,540 --> 00:08:23,140 S2: according to historians at Luke's Gospel, you know, obviously is 134 00:08:23,140 --> 00:08:30,220 S2: based on, on eyewitness testimonies, but his major, um, contributor, 135 00:08:30,220 --> 00:08:33,780 S2: his major eyewitness that he bases his gospel on is 136 00:08:33,820 --> 00:08:38,540 S2: actually Mary. So we have a woman's voice, literally and 137 00:08:38,540 --> 00:08:43,100 S2: specifically recorded for us in her words. But also her 138 00:08:43,100 --> 00:08:46,740 S2: witness is recorded for us, um, in the New Testament. 139 00:08:46,740 --> 00:08:51,160 S2: And that's actually really amazing. That makes the New Testament 140 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:57,640 S2: unlike any document of the era, to include and center 141 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,000 S2: a women's perspective in in this kind of way, it's 142 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,920 S2: really beautiful. But also for those of us who love Jesus, 143 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,600 S2: who are followers of Jesus, to have that eye witness, 144 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,520 S2: first hand account of what his birth was like, you 145 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:18,200 S2: know what the details were around that birth that is 146 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,400 S2: utterly extraordinary and thrilling. You know, the incarnation of God 147 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,160 S2: in history is not this kind of general, arbitrary thing. 148 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:32,600 S2: It's something specific, embodied, personal. You know, it really, really happened. 149 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,000 S2: And we can read about it in detail. 150 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:37,600 S1: Well, what I want to do in this hour is 151 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:43,720 S1: ponder these things in our heart with you, doctor or Ewing. The, um, 152 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,959 S1: sentence that I pulled out of here, the paragraph you write. 153 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,059 S1: Consider for a moment what life might have been like 154 00:09:50,059 --> 00:09:53,340 S1: for a young woman in an insignificant district of an 155 00:09:53,380 --> 00:09:57,420 S1: occupied country, under the control of the most powerful empire 156 00:09:57,420 --> 00:10:00,300 S1: of the world has ever known. And now contemplate the 157 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:02,580 S1: experience of a woman at a time when a woman's 158 00:10:02,580 --> 00:10:06,700 S1: voice meant very little indeed. In fact, her testimony was 159 00:10:06,700 --> 00:10:10,059 S1: practically worthless in a court of law. Think of how 160 00:10:10,059 --> 00:10:13,660 S1: a woman living under such oppression was also expected to 161 00:10:13,700 --> 00:10:17,780 S1: follow the cultural norms of marriage. This is the world. 162 00:10:17,780 --> 00:10:21,260 S1: As Mary, the mother of Jesus, experienced it at the 163 00:10:21,260 --> 00:10:24,100 S1: beginning of the first millennia. So we're going to go 164 00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:25,660 S1: into this a little bit more. If you go to 165 00:10:25,660 --> 00:10:31,500 S1: the website, you'll see our featured resource, Mary's Voice Advent 166 00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:36,740 S1: Reflections to Contemplate the Coming of Christ. Just go to npr.org. 167 00:10:37,260 --> 00:10:39,620 S1: I have a question on Facebook as well. If you 168 00:10:39,620 --> 00:10:42,620 S1: could ask Mary one question, what would it be? We're 169 00:10:42,620 --> 00:10:45,700 S1: going to entertain some of those questions today at the 170 00:10:45,700 --> 00:10:58,160 S1: radio backyard fence. Thanks for joining us for Chris Fabry 171 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:03,000 S1: live Online. Chris Fabry for our program is recorded today. 172 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:04,959 S1: Don't call us if you hear a phone number or 173 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,880 S1: dated information, disregard that. Mary's voice is the book we're 174 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,760 S1: talking about. Advent reflections to contemplate the coming of Christ. 175 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,520 S1: Doctor Amy Ewing is our guest. And something happened to 176 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,000 S1: you in a court of law, doctor or Ewing? You 177 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:26,240 S1: were supporting a witness during a trial and something dawned 178 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,080 S1: on you. What was that? 179 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,599 S2: Yeah. So this is actually partly how this book came about. 180 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,800 S2: So I was supporting a woman who was giving evidence 181 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:42,240 S2: at the criminal trial of her childhood sexual abuser. The 182 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,680 S2: trial was taking place over the course of a week, 183 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:51,100 S2: and I was present to to be supporting that person. So, um, 184 00:11:51,100 --> 00:11:55,059 S2: about about halfway through the week, I was just really asking, God, 185 00:11:55,100 --> 00:11:58,859 S2: you know, where are you in this Lord? And will 186 00:11:58,860 --> 00:12:02,699 S2: you come through? Could there be justice in this situation 187 00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:05,900 S2: and feeling that need to pray? I was away from 188 00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:09,100 S2: home and wanted to find a place to be able 189 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:11,459 S2: to go to pray. And I was in a city 190 00:12:11,460 --> 00:12:16,980 S2: in Britain. And, um, we have these large churches called cathedrals, historic, 191 00:12:17,020 --> 00:12:20,179 S2: huge church buildings that are open all the time. You 192 00:12:20,179 --> 00:12:22,420 S2: can just go in and pray. So I went in beautiful, 193 00:12:22,420 --> 00:12:27,220 S2: beautiful building and it happened to be in the evening 194 00:12:27,740 --> 00:12:31,219 S2: and evensong, which is a sort of very old service 195 00:12:31,220 --> 00:12:34,140 S2: was was about to happen. And, you know, I wasn't 196 00:12:34,140 --> 00:12:37,220 S2: really concentrating on the service. I was just praying. But 197 00:12:37,220 --> 00:12:40,940 S2: then the choir got up to sing and, um, they 198 00:12:40,980 --> 00:12:44,060 S2: sang this stunning piece of choral music, which again, I 199 00:12:44,090 --> 00:12:47,530 S2: I wasn't particularly engaging with, but I looked down at 200 00:12:47,530 --> 00:12:51,250 S2: the sheet just at the moment that they sang the 201 00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:55,290 S2: words and they were singing Mary's Magnificat, which is the 202 00:12:55,290 --> 00:12:58,610 S2: song that she sang after the angel Gabriel told her 203 00:12:58,610 --> 00:13:01,290 S2: she was going to have the baby Jesus. And they 204 00:13:01,330 --> 00:13:06,290 S2: sang these words, um, which which Mary had spoken, you know, 205 00:13:06,330 --> 00:13:11,250 S2: 2000 years earlier. Um, he has brought down the rulers 206 00:13:11,250 --> 00:13:14,890 S2: from their thrones, and he will exalt them of low degree. 207 00:13:15,610 --> 00:13:19,410 S2: And it's sort of absolutely hit me between the eyes 208 00:13:19,410 --> 00:13:24,329 S2: that Mary was prophesying what Jesus had come to do, 209 00:13:24,370 --> 00:13:28,610 S2: how he would overturn the power of evil in this world, 210 00:13:28,610 --> 00:13:33,330 S2: how he would upturn misuses of of power in this world, 211 00:13:33,770 --> 00:13:38,689 S2: and her absolute conviction about the authority of the child 212 00:13:38,690 --> 00:13:40,490 S2: that she was going to give birth to and what 213 00:13:40,490 --> 00:13:45,590 S2: he'd come to do. But I also realized in that moment, um, 214 00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:47,910 S2: that for all of those years I'd been a Christian 215 00:13:47,910 --> 00:13:50,069 S2: for 2 or 3 decades, I'd read the Bible in 216 00:13:50,070 --> 00:13:52,950 S2: a year. Most years of my Christian life, I'd studied 217 00:13:52,950 --> 00:13:56,989 S2: theology at the University of Oxford. I've had amazing opportunities 218 00:13:56,990 --> 00:14:00,630 S2: to engage with the Bible, but I'd never truly listened 219 00:14:00,630 --> 00:14:04,910 S2: to or understood that Mary had a voice. And so 220 00:14:04,910 --> 00:14:07,310 S2: that sort of set me on a on a journey 221 00:14:07,309 --> 00:14:12,270 S2: to begin to engage with that voice and those words and, um, 222 00:14:12,270 --> 00:14:16,110 S2: what that actually means about who Jesus is and who 223 00:14:16,150 --> 00:14:19,710 S2: our God is. Yeah. So that's that's partly how the 224 00:14:19,710 --> 00:14:21,470 S2: book came, came about. 225 00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:25,430 S1: One of the things that you do, uh, around the country, 226 00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:29,150 S1: around the world is speak, uh, and, and you are 227 00:14:29,150 --> 00:14:33,070 S1: an apologist for the scriptures and for the faith. You're 228 00:14:33,070 --> 00:14:36,750 S1: co-founder of reboot, which is an innovative youth initiative aimed 229 00:14:36,750 --> 00:14:41,850 S1: at helping teenagers think deeply about faith. And it seems 230 00:14:41,850 --> 00:14:45,730 S1: to me with the apologists that I have heard, this 231 00:14:45,730 --> 00:14:49,770 S1: is one of those things that though at the time 232 00:14:50,250 --> 00:14:55,290 S1: it may have cast aspersions on on Christianity. Now, looking 233 00:14:55,290 --> 00:14:59,610 S1: at it from today back, it gives more credence that 234 00:14:59,610 --> 00:15:03,890 S1: women were that Mary's voice is heard, that the women 235 00:15:03,890 --> 00:15:07,210 S1: who were at the tomb and saw him first, you 236 00:15:07,210 --> 00:15:11,890 S1: know that they it's their eyewitness testimony that is so 237 00:15:11,890 --> 00:15:15,850 S1: compelling because if if the people who were writing the 238 00:15:15,850 --> 00:15:20,370 S1: Bible had been making it up, they wouldn't have included that. 239 00:15:20,410 --> 00:15:21,770 S1: Talk a little bit about that. 240 00:15:21,970 --> 00:15:26,690 S2: Yeah, absolutely. So we mentioned earlier that a woman's voice 241 00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:29,290 S2: didn't have equal validity in a court of law in 242 00:15:29,290 --> 00:15:33,290 S2: the Greco-Roman world, and certainly not in the Jewish rabbinic 243 00:15:33,290 --> 00:15:37,530 S2: mindset either. So if you were in the first century 244 00:15:37,570 --> 00:15:39,890 S2: trying to make up a story that you wanted people 245 00:15:39,890 --> 00:15:43,470 S2: to believe about God being born in history and dying 246 00:15:43,470 --> 00:15:46,470 S2: by crucifixion and then being raised from the dead. And 247 00:15:46,470 --> 00:15:50,830 S2: you wanted people to believe this was actually true, historically accurate, and, 248 00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:55,430 S2: you know, life changing, then you would never position women 249 00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:59,110 S2: in the narrative as witnesses because women weren't seen to 250 00:15:59,110 --> 00:16:02,150 S2: be credible in the first century. So this is actually 251 00:16:02,150 --> 00:16:06,190 S2: seen by skeptics and scholars as really good evidence that 252 00:16:06,190 --> 00:16:11,310 S2: the biblical accounts are credible and true because, you know, 253 00:16:11,750 --> 00:16:15,750 S2: you you wouldn't set out to make something up and 254 00:16:15,750 --> 00:16:19,109 S2: position women as your key witnesses. And of course, Mary, 255 00:16:19,150 --> 00:16:22,470 S2: the mother of Jesus, is the primary witness to the 256 00:16:22,470 --> 00:16:26,750 S2: incarnation of God, to the virgin birth. And then the 257 00:16:26,750 --> 00:16:29,590 S2: women are the primary witnesses to the crucifixion as well. 258 00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:33,910 S2: The male disciples mainly deserted Jesus, but the women stood 259 00:16:33,910 --> 00:16:38,150 S2: close and made careful memory and account of the details 260 00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:40,260 S2: of the crucifixion. And then, as you said, they were 261 00:16:40,260 --> 00:16:43,380 S2: first at the empty tomb. So this is great evidence 262 00:16:43,380 --> 00:16:45,940 S2: for the Christian faith, but I think it also says 263 00:16:45,940 --> 00:16:49,820 S2: something about who our God is, who he includes. What 264 00:16:49,820 --> 00:16:53,100 S2: it means to be a Christian is that, you know, 265 00:16:53,140 --> 00:16:59,340 S2: there aren't these castes or hierarchies of professional or greater 266 00:16:59,340 --> 00:17:03,620 S2: Christians than others. We're all included. We're all called to 267 00:17:03,660 --> 00:17:06,780 S2: be saints, and we're all called to be witnesses. And 268 00:17:06,780 --> 00:17:09,739 S2: it's something really beautiful and powerful and unique about the 269 00:17:09,740 --> 00:17:13,620 S2: Christian faith. So Mary's voice also speaks of that. 270 00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:18,380 S1: As you researched and wrote this, then what did you 271 00:17:18,380 --> 00:17:23,780 S1: learn about Mary that you didn't fully understand? Or even now, 272 00:17:23,940 --> 00:17:26,260 S1: you know, because I know in the writing process you 273 00:17:26,260 --> 00:17:28,500 S1: do this maybe a year before the book comes out, 274 00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:31,660 S1: so it may be a while. What did you learn 275 00:17:31,660 --> 00:17:35,820 S1: or relearn, uh, as you wrote and researched? 276 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:43,440 S2: Yeah, all sorts of things, actually. Really wonderful. Um, nuances 277 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,680 S2: that that just struck me afresh. So, um, one that you, 278 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,360 S2: you read out earlier that Mary was a woman who 279 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:58,040 S2: lived under occupation. You know, my grandmother, my father's mother, um, 280 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,280 S2: lived under Soviet occupation after the Second World War. My 281 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:07,320 S2: grandparents escaped in 1948 and came to Britain just in 282 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,520 S2: the clothes they were standing up in. You know, they 283 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:15,800 S2: experienced the utter horror of war and, and occupation and 284 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,480 S2: her stories of what that really meant, what it meant 285 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,160 S2: to live as a woman under occupation. And then, um, 286 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,040 S2: while I was writing this book, actually, we had, um, 287 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:30,119 S2: two Ukrainian women escaping the war in Ukraine who came 288 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,160 S2: to live at our farm and find refuge with us 289 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,540 S2: for the year, an 80 year old woman and her 290 00:18:37,540 --> 00:18:42,859 S2: 60 year old daughter, who then also experienced, you know, 291 00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:46,940 S2: Russian invasion and occupation of of where they lived. And 292 00:18:46,940 --> 00:18:51,220 S2: all the horror that went with that. And to see 293 00:18:51,260 --> 00:18:55,820 S2: those two women and hear of their experiences of what 294 00:18:55,820 --> 00:18:59,420 S2: it actually means for your country to be invaded, so 295 00:18:59,460 --> 00:19:03,780 S2: that it struck me. You know, Mary, Mary was a 296 00:19:03,780 --> 00:19:07,260 S2: woman who experienced that, and that is who God chose. 297 00:19:07,260 --> 00:19:11,220 S2: So when she spoke out her Magnificat and she spoke 298 00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:17,780 S2: of evil powers and unjust rulers, you know, being overturned 299 00:19:17,780 --> 00:19:21,139 S2: by the authority of God. And, you know, ultimately the 300 00:19:21,180 --> 00:19:24,580 S2: justice of God coming. That was very powerful. And then, 301 00:19:24,580 --> 00:19:27,859 S2: of course, that line that we're probably all familiar with 302 00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:31,619 S2: if if we read the Bible that Mary treasured these 303 00:19:31,619 --> 00:19:35,520 S2: things in her heart and pondered them, you know, and 304 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,840 S2: that that comes twice that comes in Luke's gospel around 305 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,760 S2: the birth account. And then it also comes around the 306 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:47,000 S2: account of Simeon and Anna, who Mary met in the temple. 307 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,400 S2: And it just struck me that in order to be 308 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,600 S2: a good witness to the events, in order to tell 309 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:01,200 S2: Luke in detail the sorts of details Mary includes in 310 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,080 S2: her account to Luke of the shepherds who were in 311 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,520 S2: the fields and watching the flocks, and they were told, 312 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,200 S2: the Savior will be born in Bethlehem, the town of David, 313 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,240 S2: and this will be a sign to you. You will 314 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:18,440 S2: find the child wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger. 315 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,159 S2: Now again, that's very familiar to us. But when you 316 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,399 S2: when you sort of do the research, it sort of 317 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,400 S2: strikes you again as odd. A child will be found 318 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,600 S2: in cloth, lying in an animal feeding trough. That's what 319 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,300 S2: that actually means. You know, we sanitize it with our 320 00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:40,460 S2: beautiful Christmas cards. But Mary's baby was laid in the 321 00:20:40,460 --> 00:20:46,820 S2: food receptacle for animals. And that happening was was prophesied 322 00:20:46,859 --> 00:20:50,699 S2: to shepherds by angels. And we know about that because 323 00:20:50,740 --> 00:20:54,139 S2: Luke wrote it down. And Luke could write it down 324 00:20:54,140 --> 00:20:59,740 S2: because Mary remembered it and pondered it, and was careful 325 00:20:59,940 --> 00:21:05,260 S2: to keep a kind of detailed description of what had happened. 326 00:21:05,460 --> 00:21:08,619 S2: And I think that's amazing that we can be talking 327 00:21:08,619 --> 00:21:12,740 S2: about this 2000 years later, because she did that. 328 00:21:12,780 --> 00:21:13,660 S3: It's so exciting. 329 00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:16,300 S1: And then to think about, you know, I've thought, because 330 00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:19,940 S1: I love telling stories to my children or, you know, 331 00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:23,740 S1: the lullabies that you sing to your kids when they're little. 332 00:21:24,180 --> 00:21:29,260 S1: I love the thought of Mary and Jesus and him 333 00:21:29,260 --> 00:21:32,770 S1: crawling up in her lap and saying, mom, Of course 334 00:21:32,770 --> 00:21:35,770 S1: he would be speaking in English. But yeah. Mom, tell me. 335 00:21:35,810 --> 00:21:39,570 S1: Tell me again. Tell me what happened. But the overwhelming 336 00:21:39,609 --> 00:21:43,050 S1: thought that I have today as we talk is the 337 00:21:43,050 --> 00:21:48,290 S1: lack of control that Mary had. You know, the census happens. 338 00:21:48,450 --> 00:21:52,090 S1: She's close to giving birth. They have to travel. She 339 00:21:52,090 --> 00:21:55,850 S1: didn't have any recourse. She's got to go. She and 340 00:21:55,850 --> 00:21:59,409 S1: Joseph go. They go down there and then, uh, here 341 00:21:59,410 --> 00:22:02,450 S1: come the wise men. Then after that, after a time, 342 00:22:02,450 --> 00:22:07,409 S1: here comes Herod. Here comes the, um. You know, the 343 00:22:07,609 --> 00:22:11,850 S1: slaughter of the innocents. You know, this innocent baby, this 344 00:22:12,130 --> 00:22:15,810 S1: this gift from God. They want to kill him so 345 00:22:15,810 --> 00:22:18,889 S1: she doesn't have control over that. And so then, you 346 00:22:18,890 --> 00:22:21,410 S1: know the dream going down to Egypt. She didn't have 347 00:22:21,410 --> 00:22:26,050 S1: control there. The only. And then returning after after a time, 348 00:22:26,050 --> 00:22:29,010 S1: the only control that she really has or that she's 349 00:22:29,050 --> 00:22:34,590 S1: able to, um, really satisfy her desire for control is 350 00:22:34,590 --> 00:22:37,790 S1: that there is a sovereign God who is over all 351 00:22:37,790 --> 00:22:41,070 S1: of this, and that's how she that's who she must 352 00:22:41,070 --> 00:22:45,790 S1: place her faith and trust completely in. Does that make sense? 353 00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:49,909 S2: Yeah, it really does. You know, I think, again, the 354 00:22:49,910 --> 00:22:56,350 S2: New Testament account is so extraordinary because that incredible vulnerability 355 00:22:56,350 --> 00:23:00,670 S2: initially of the unmarried teenage girl, that probably means she 356 00:23:00,670 --> 00:23:04,750 S2: was 13 or 14 in that culture, having the angel 357 00:23:04,750 --> 00:23:10,430 S2: appear and that whole interaction with Gabriel, where Mary questions, 358 00:23:10,430 --> 00:23:13,310 S2: how can this be? She understands biology. She knows she's 359 00:23:13,310 --> 00:23:15,830 S2: a virgin. How could it be that she could have 360 00:23:15,830 --> 00:23:20,070 S2: a baby? And then she's greatly troubled, the account says, 361 00:23:20,109 --> 00:23:23,109 S2: fearful and greatly troubled. And then at the end of 362 00:23:23,150 --> 00:23:28,510 S2: that encounter with Gabriel, she says, um, may it be 363 00:23:28,550 --> 00:23:34,250 S2: to your seven as your word has said. So she consents. 364 00:23:34,250 --> 00:23:40,609 S2: She affirms her faith. But that extraordinary vulnerability, as you've 365 00:23:40,609 --> 00:23:47,770 S2: so beautifully outlined, you know, continues that experience of fleeing violence, 366 00:23:47,770 --> 00:23:52,210 S2: the experience of being uprooted because of taxation and a census, 367 00:23:52,650 --> 00:23:57,090 S2: you know, the process of then, you know, Joseph coming 368 00:23:57,090 --> 00:24:00,889 S2: round to this and then actually being married and her 369 00:24:00,930 --> 00:24:04,930 S2: needing to go with him and then, uh, finding herself 370 00:24:04,930 --> 00:24:08,850 S2: giving birth away from home, surrounded by animals, using that, 371 00:24:08,850 --> 00:24:14,490 S2: that manger as her, as her first cradle. Extraordinary vulnerability. 372 00:24:15,369 --> 00:24:19,889 S2: And I think theologically again, there's something very powerful in that. 373 00:24:19,890 --> 00:24:23,129 S2: It speaks to me of Philippians two. You know that 374 00:24:23,690 --> 00:24:27,889 S2: that beautiful passage of Scripture about who Jesus is, who 375 00:24:27,890 --> 00:24:30,870 S2: being in very nature God, did not consider equality with 376 00:24:30,869 --> 00:24:35,990 S2: God something to be grasped, but makes himself nothing, and 377 00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:40,550 S2: making himself nothing is, you know, being born of this 378 00:24:40,550 --> 00:24:46,629 S2: very vulnerable young woman in this insignificant district, in a 379 00:24:46,750 --> 00:24:51,070 S2: place living under occupation, at a very volatile time in history. 380 00:24:51,109 --> 00:24:56,870 S2: God is born. And so you have this extraordinary balance 381 00:24:56,869 --> 00:25:01,629 S2: of this beautiful vulnerability, but also that sovereignty of God 382 00:25:01,630 --> 00:25:05,389 S2: and that awesome power of God. And that's kind of evoked, 383 00:25:05,390 --> 00:25:09,390 S2: of course, by the angels lighting up the sky, but 384 00:25:09,390 --> 00:25:13,830 S2: also Mary's kind of defiant song of hope. You know, 385 00:25:13,869 --> 00:25:18,750 S2: that Bonhoeffer, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the great German preacher who resisted 386 00:25:18,750 --> 00:25:22,030 S2: the Nazis and gave his life and, you know, died 387 00:25:22,150 --> 00:25:24,389 S2: because of his part in the plot on Hitler's life 388 00:25:24,390 --> 00:25:30,330 S2: he calls Mary's Magnificat, um, the most revolutionary hymn ever sung. 389 00:25:30,369 --> 00:25:34,609 S2: You know, this extraordinary expression of defiant hope in the 390 00:25:34,609 --> 00:25:38,090 S2: authority and power of God, in contrast to the powers 391 00:25:38,090 --> 00:25:38,970 S2: of this age? 392 00:25:39,210 --> 00:25:42,409 S1: That's Doctor Amy or Ewing will take our midpoint break 393 00:25:42,410 --> 00:25:46,250 S1: and come back and hear more about Mary's voice. Advent 394 00:25:46,250 --> 00:25:50,170 S1: reflections to contemplate the coming of Christ. Straight ahead on 395 00:25:50,170 --> 00:26:08,490 S1: Moody Radio. You're listening to Chris Fabry live on Moody Radio. 396 00:26:08,530 --> 00:26:12,169 S1: Our program is recorded today. Don't call us. We're considering 397 00:26:12,530 --> 00:26:16,810 S1: Mary and her voice and who she was and what 398 00:26:16,810 --> 00:26:20,050 S1: she said yes to, even though she didn't know everything 399 00:26:20,050 --> 00:26:22,850 S1: that she was saying yes to when she said yes. 400 00:26:23,570 --> 00:26:26,439 S1: There's something for us here today, and I go back 401 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,000 S1: to that hymn that we sing. Uh, this is included 402 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,800 S1: in the book. Hosanna in excelsis. What child is this? 403 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:40,080 S1: Who laid to rest on Mary's lap is sleeping? Whom 404 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:45,800 S1: angels greet with anthems sweet while shepherds watch are keeping this. 405 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:52,400 S1: This is Christ the king. Whom shepherds guard and angels sing. Haste, 406 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:57,200 S1: haste to bring him. Lord the babe, the son of Mary. 407 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,600 S1: So what child is this? Who is this? And then why? 408 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,600 S1: Why lies he in such mean estate? If this really 409 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,919 S1: is the King of Kings and the Lord of lords, 410 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,880 S1: why would he come to us in this way and 411 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:18,000 S1: be born in a stable and laid in a manger? Why? 412 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:24,140 S1: Why God would this happen that his parents are so poor? Were. 413 00:27:24,980 --> 00:27:28,380 S1: What does this say to us? And what questions does 414 00:27:28,380 --> 00:27:32,060 S1: it raise in us at this time of year? I 415 00:27:32,100 --> 00:27:35,980 S1: hope you'll ponder some of that all this week, as 416 00:27:35,980 --> 00:27:40,460 S1: we continue thinking about what God did for us when 417 00:27:40,460 --> 00:27:45,900 S1: he invaded space and time as a baby in the manger. 418 00:27:46,580 --> 00:27:51,780 S1: Doctor Amy Ewing is an international author, speaker, theologian, and apologist. 419 00:27:51,940 --> 00:27:56,820 S1: She's written Mary's Voice Advent Reflections to Contemplate the Coming 420 00:27:56,859 --> 00:28:00,700 S1: of Christ. We also have some resources that are online. 421 00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:04,500 S1: If you go to Chris Dot. There are other resources. 422 00:28:04,859 --> 00:28:09,100 S1: And advent. Uh, let's see a reading plan and there 423 00:28:09,140 --> 00:28:13,619 S1: are weekly advent videos. Just click that link at Chris favorite. 424 00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:20,139 S1: You said something about the Magnificat though, Doctor or Ewing 425 00:28:20,180 --> 00:28:23,060 S1: before we went to the break and it was, um, 426 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,760 S1: let it be unto me, as you have said. Basically, 427 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,120 S1: whatever your will is, that's what I want. And I 428 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:35,320 S1: hear echoes of that in Gethsemane, of not my will, 429 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,080 S1: but yours be done. Do you hear that, too? 430 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:48,280 S2: Absolutely. And, um, I think in both those settings, the 431 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:54,960 S2: preparedness to pay a cost and that sort of response 432 00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:00,040 S2: of faith not being cheap really matters. You know, sometimes 433 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,680 S2: in in the Christian life, we can sort of merrily sing, yes, Lord, 434 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,920 S2: you know, or I'll do anything, Lord, you know our prayers, 435 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:14,800 S2: but but actually, um, in both Gethsemane but also at 436 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,920 S2: the annunciation of of the virgin birth, there's, there's enormous 437 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:26,140 S2: cost and in, in both settings. God is not compelling, 438 00:29:26,340 --> 00:29:28,980 S2: you know. The father is not compelling the son. The 439 00:29:28,980 --> 00:29:34,420 S2: son is willingly choosing to give up his life for 440 00:29:34,420 --> 00:29:37,620 S2: the sins of the world. You know, although the struggle 441 00:29:37,620 --> 00:29:40,220 S2: is real and the cost is real, and in the 442 00:29:40,220 --> 00:29:46,340 S2: same way Mary is um, is is called to and 443 00:29:46,380 --> 00:29:52,140 S2: offered this role to be this the mother through whom 444 00:29:52,180 --> 00:29:55,580 S2: you know the Savior would be born, the woman's seed 445 00:29:55,620 --> 00:29:59,260 S2: that was prophesied to Eve that would one day crush 446 00:29:59,260 --> 00:30:05,100 S2: the serpent's head. Um, but Mary does need to choose 447 00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:08,740 S2: to accept, to speak up and to say yes. And, 448 00:30:09,020 --> 00:30:12,060 S2: you know, in our modern language, if you like to consent. 449 00:30:12,060 --> 00:30:15,220 S2: And she does exactly that. And I think that's really 450 00:30:15,220 --> 00:30:19,620 S2: beautiful and really powerful. And again, it speaks of the 451 00:30:19,660 --> 00:30:25,000 S2: God of the Bible. He does not impose his will, 452 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:32,920 S2: but his whose authority is connected deeply with goodness, but 453 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,480 S2: who also affirms and the need for us to choose 454 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:43,160 S2: to make good decisions, to to enact his will in 455 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:44,080 S2: our lives. 456 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:45,520 S4: For us to participate. 457 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,320 S1: In, in what he is doing, and trust that even 458 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,800 S1: if we can't make sense of what's going on, which 459 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,360 S1: in Mary's life you can see this at times you 460 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,520 S1: can see that happening, um, that she still chooses to 461 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,560 S1: say yes and to to still follow God's plan. Um, 462 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,040 S1: I think of the Apostle Paul when, um, I think 463 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,720 S1: it's Ananias in the book of acts is told to 464 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,520 S1: go over and say to, to Saul, you know, um, to, 465 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,880 S1: to help him. Um, Ananias says, time out here. I 466 00:31:19,270 --> 00:31:23,990 S1: Don't you know who this guy is? And he's told 467 00:31:24,030 --> 00:31:26,550 S1: I will show him how much he must suffer for 468 00:31:26,550 --> 00:31:31,550 S1: my sake. And that. That Saul Paul will suffer for 469 00:31:31,550 --> 00:31:35,270 S1: my sake. And in the same way, obviously, Jesus is 470 00:31:35,470 --> 00:31:38,510 S1: the ultimate one who suffers. But in the same way, 471 00:31:38,550 --> 00:31:41,950 S1: Mary did not know. I mean, all she knew was 472 00:31:41,950 --> 00:31:44,310 S1: what had been told to her and what she could 473 00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:48,950 S1: decipher from the scriptures. But she didn't know the depth 474 00:31:48,950 --> 00:31:53,310 S1: of the suffering that she was going to walk through. 475 00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:56,670 S1: She had to say yes and keep saying yes. Right. 476 00:31:56,990 --> 00:32:01,910 S2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously there are pointers to it 477 00:32:01,910 --> 00:32:05,310 S2: that again, she treasures in her heart when the old man, Simeon, 478 00:32:05,310 --> 00:32:09,230 S2: who's been waiting in the temple every day for the Messiah, 479 00:32:09,230 --> 00:32:12,510 S2: for the for the one to come and and he 480 00:32:12,510 --> 00:32:15,270 S2: lays eyes on this young family and there would have 481 00:32:15,270 --> 00:32:18,690 S2: been many young families there, but his eyes rest on 482 00:32:18,730 --> 00:32:23,770 S2: them and he he realizes, you know, today he has 483 00:32:23,770 --> 00:32:28,570 S2: seen the salvation that he's he's longed for. And then 484 00:32:28,570 --> 00:32:32,730 S2: there's that prophecy. But but a sword will pierce your 485 00:32:32,730 --> 00:32:37,170 S2: own soul, too. So that that promise to the young mother, 486 00:32:37,530 --> 00:32:41,209 S2: you are really going to suffer that that kind of 487 00:32:41,250 --> 00:32:45,410 S2: comes again there quite early on as as Mary is 488 00:32:45,410 --> 00:32:50,770 S2: taking the the young Jesus, um, to to to the temple. 489 00:32:51,130 --> 00:32:56,130 S2: So that theme of cost and suffering is, is, is 490 00:32:56,130 --> 00:32:58,930 S2: really there. And it struck me again in the studies 491 00:32:58,930 --> 00:33:03,370 S2: that Mary is the only person who is present at 492 00:33:03,890 --> 00:33:08,890 S2: the birth and the death of Jesus, that she is 493 00:33:08,890 --> 00:33:12,450 S2: there for the whole thing. So this is this is 494 00:33:12,450 --> 00:33:16,170 S2: a woman with genuinely a front row seat, and we 495 00:33:16,170 --> 00:33:21,550 S2: get to read her words, her perceptions, her memory, her recall. 496 00:33:21,830 --> 00:33:24,310 S2: You know what she treasured in her heart and remembered. 497 00:33:24,310 --> 00:33:26,510 S2: And that's that's quite amazing. 498 00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:27,550 S4: It is. 499 00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:31,310 S1: And the the idea that she was there at the 500 00:33:31,310 --> 00:33:36,070 S1: beginning and then the end of the earthly life and ministry, 501 00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:40,870 S1: you know, of, of Jesus and then the, the idea 502 00:33:40,990 --> 00:33:44,110 S1: of just coming up with this as we're, as we're 503 00:33:44,110 --> 00:33:47,070 S1: talking here, um, this is the way that I would 504 00:33:47,070 --> 00:33:50,230 S1: process it. It's like, okay, it feels like the world's 505 00:33:50,230 --> 00:33:54,150 S1: against me. There's, you know, the the authorities want to 506 00:33:54,150 --> 00:33:57,830 S1: kill my son. And then as he goes into his ministry, 507 00:33:57,830 --> 00:34:00,190 S1: the authorities want to kill my son. You know, there's 508 00:34:00,190 --> 00:34:02,910 S1: a lot of people who are against him, but at 509 00:34:02,950 --> 00:34:06,030 S1: least I've got this. This fella, you know, who has 510 00:34:06,030 --> 00:34:09,189 S1: committed himself to me and hasn't put me away in 511 00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:13,230 S1: divorce because of what happened here. I've got Joseph, and 512 00:34:13,230 --> 00:34:16,290 S1: we can walk through this together. And at some point 513 00:34:16,290 --> 00:34:19,290 S1: in the narrative, you see, Joseph's not there anymore. We 514 00:34:19,330 --> 00:34:24,170 S1: don't know. We assume that there that that he died. Uh, 515 00:34:24,370 --> 00:34:26,410 S1: we don't know that. But we we do know that 516 00:34:26,410 --> 00:34:30,330 S1: he's not in the story any longer. And so she 517 00:34:30,330 --> 00:34:33,569 S1: has to walk through the that's part of the the 518 00:34:33,610 --> 00:34:36,890 S1: suffering and the aloneness that she has to go through, 519 00:34:36,890 --> 00:34:37,490 S1: isn't it? 520 00:34:38,850 --> 00:34:43,770 S2: Yeah. And fascinating that, um, of the seven words Jesus 521 00:34:43,770 --> 00:34:49,690 S2: spoke from the cross. One of them was asking his 522 00:34:49,690 --> 00:34:53,170 S2: closest friend, the beloved disciple John, to take care of 523 00:34:53,170 --> 00:34:59,410 S2: his mother. Dear woman, here is your son. So there's 524 00:34:59,450 --> 00:35:05,690 S2: a a very precious insight into the relationship between mother 525 00:35:05,690 --> 00:35:09,530 S2: and son. Fascinating interaction as well. At the wedding at Cana, where, 526 00:35:10,010 --> 00:35:13,649 S2: you know, they they where he says, why do you 527 00:35:13,650 --> 00:35:17,150 S2: involve me? And she just turns to the servants and says, 528 00:35:17,150 --> 00:35:20,350 S2: just do whatever he tells you. You know, there's a really, 529 00:35:20,350 --> 00:35:26,310 S2: really insightful kind of, um, recounting somehow of their relationship 530 00:35:26,310 --> 00:35:30,150 S2: there and then fascinating to me as well, that Luke 531 00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:34,589 S2: records that Mary is present in the upper Room on 532 00:35:34,590 --> 00:35:38,109 S2: the day of Pentecost. She is named as one of 533 00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:41,509 S2: the one of those gathered there for the coming of 534 00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:45,310 S2: the Holy Spirit on the church. And then, of course, 535 00:35:45,350 --> 00:35:50,790 S2: you know, the early church also records that she, um, 536 00:35:51,310 --> 00:35:56,950 S2: she lived and carried on witnessing to who Jesus is. 537 00:35:57,350 --> 00:36:01,110 S2: This is the Son of God and had absolute, utter 538 00:36:01,110 --> 00:36:05,630 S2: faith and conviction in Christ as our Savior and Lord. 539 00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:11,469 S2: And so, um, again, just wonderful to remember that, you know, 540 00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:12,950 S2: if you think back to what we were talking about 541 00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:17,620 S2: right at the beginning. That visual image of Mary, perpetually static, 542 00:36:17,620 --> 00:36:21,140 S2: stuck as a young mother with a baby, you know, 543 00:36:21,180 --> 00:36:25,140 S2: just in that one kind of short period of her life. 544 00:36:25,140 --> 00:36:28,700 S2: But this is a woman who lived a whole life, um, 545 00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:33,380 S2: and who greatly suffered, but also, you know, had such 546 00:36:33,420 --> 00:36:38,180 S2: depth of faith and treasured things in her heart and 547 00:36:38,180 --> 00:36:41,820 S2: recounted them to others so that we can know them. 548 00:36:42,060 --> 00:36:42,620 S4: Yes. 549 00:36:42,660 --> 00:36:45,140 S1: And that's what will happen to you as you go 550 00:36:45,140 --> 00:36:49,220 S1: through this, especially now as we head toward the celebration. 551 00:36:49,219 --> 00:36:51,380 S1: That was one of the questions that what was Jesus 552 00:36:51,380 --> 00:36:54,299 S1: birth date really? We know it's not December 25th, but 553 00:36:54,340 --> 00:36:56,900 S1: what was it really? Mary, I gotta find this out. 554 00:36:56,900 --> 00:36:58,900 S1: And there are other people on Facebook who were asking 555 00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:01,379 S1: these questions. I'll get to some of those, but if 556 00:37:01,380 --> 00:37:06,300 S1: you go to the website, you'll see Mary's voice Advent 557 00:37:06,300 --> 00:37:10,700 S1: Reflections to Contemplate the Coming of Christ by Doctor Amy 558 00:37:10,739 --> 00:37:16,600 S1: or Ewing. Let's go to Chris Fabry lives. I also 559 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,560 S1: want to find out what lead like the real you. 560 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:24,080 S1: How that was affected by Amy's research. We'll talk about 561 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:36,440 S1: that straight ahead. Doctor Amy or Ewing has done a 562 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,600 S1: deep dive into the person of Mary, the mother of Jesus. 563 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,560 S1: And she's written Mary's voice Advent reflections to contemplate the 564 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,320 S1: coming of Christ. If you go to Chris, you'll see 565 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:55,760 S1: that resource linked right there. Chris, we had this conversation 566 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,680 S1: a year ago, and I've been thinking about it since then. 567 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,239 S1: And one of the things that we did online, on 568 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:07,399 S1: Facebook was to ask that question. And I elicited some responses. Uh, 569 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,100 S1: if you were to ask Mary, the mother of Jesus, Anything? 570 00:38:11,260 --> 00:38:14,860 S1: What would you ask? And let me give you a 571 00:38:14,860 --> 00:38:20,660 S1: few of the responses. Diane said, were you scared? And 572 00:38:20,660 --> 00:38:24,660 S1: there is, you know, very human and scared. At what 573 00:38:24,660 --> 00:38:30,180 S1: point when the angel comes, when you hear this news? Um, 574 00:38:30,219 --> 00:38:33,140 S1: how would you answer that? Amy, were you scared? 575 00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:37,860 S2: Yeah. Well, I think Mary answers that because, um, she 576 00:38:37,860 --> 00:38:42,060 S2: shares with Luke in. And he writes for us the gospel, 577 00:38:42,100 --> 00:38:46,420 S2: and it says, um. Mary was troubled by his words 578 00:38:46,420 --> 00:38:50,060 S2: and afraid. So I think we can be pretty sure that, 579 00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:53,580 S2: you know, this is a human being. And yes, she 580 00:38:53,580 --> 00:38:57,220 S2: was she was afraid. You know, sometimes in the Christian life, 581 00:38:57,219 --> 00:39:00,739 S2: we can make the mistake of thinking that courage is 582 00:39:00,739 --> 00:39:05,940 S2: an absence of fear. And the Bible doesn't position things 583 00:39:05,940 --> 00:39:11,360 S2: in that way. You know, our normal frailties and fragilities 584 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:17,120 S2: and anxieties are are acknowledged and God meets us there. 585 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,640 S2: We we just need to give him our yes. And 586 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,600 S2: he meets us in our fear. And that's that's you know, 587 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,160 S2: that's where I see Mary. 588 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,960 S1: Stephanie says, how can I be more like you and 589 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,839 S1: be able to step back and let go of my 590 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:36,160 S1: children and allow them to rely on God more, in 591 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,879 S1: God more instead of me? So knowing that you've got 592 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,320 S1: to let go and at the same time, you you're 593 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,520 S1: you're really, really invested here. 594 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,200 S2: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it, because the gospel 595 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,600 S2: accounts suggest that that may have been a struggle for Mary. 596 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,799 S2: There's one occasion when there's a large crowd there and 597 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:03,000 S2: people say to Jesus, your mother and brothers are here. 598 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,160 S2: And Jesus looks at the crowd and says, this is 599 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,190 S2: my mother and brothers. It's like, you know, he can't 600 00:40:10,190 --> 00:40:15,310 S2: be called away from from the work of the kingdom to, to, 601 00:40:15,670 --> 00:40:19,390 S2: you know, just necessarily always jump into to the nuclear family. 602 00:40:19,710 --> 00:40:25,109 S2: So I wonder whether just like us other mothers, you know, 603 00:40:25,150 --> 00:40:29,950 S2: Mary probably struggled with that too. Um, but perhaps she, 604 00:40:29,950 --> 00:40:35,750 S2: she would have, you know, encouraged us with, with her 605 00:40:35,750 --> 00:40:39,390 S2: original response. May it be to your servant, according to 606 00:40:39,390 --> 00:40:43,710 S2: your word like that, living with that posture of trust 607 00:40:43,710 --> 00:40:48,549 S2: and acceptance, even when we feel, um, you know, perhaps 608 00:40:48,590 --> 00:40:51,030 S2: overwhelmed or even fearful. 609 00:40:51,350 --> 00:40:51,830 S4: Yes. 610 00:40:52,110 --> 00:40:54,710 S1: Um, another Barbara says, how did you recover from the 611 00:40:54,710 --> 00:40:59,029 S1: heartbreak of seeing your precious son tortured, humiliated, and murdered 612 00:40:59,030 --> 00:41:04,310 S1: in the cruelest way? And and I, you know, stay 613 00:41:04,310 --> 00:41:08,770 S1: with Friday, stay with Thursday Friday stay with Saturday because 614 00:41:08,770 --> 00:41:12,969 S1: Sunday is is the ultimate answer to that. Resurrection is 615 00:41:12,969 --> 00:41:16,290 S1: the ultimate answer to be able to recover from the heartbreak, 616 00:41:16,489 --> 00:41:19,370 S1: but you still have the trauma of that loss to 617 00:41:19,410 --> 00:41:20,650 S1: walk through, right? 618 00:41:21,210 --> 00:41:26,330 S2: Absolutely. The suffering is real. I wonder whether the kindness 619 00:41:26,330 --> 00:41:31,529 S2: of God was to prepare her for that. And the 620 00:41:31,530 --> 00:41:35,050 S2: two things bring to mind one, um, that we've already 621 00:41:35,050 --> 00:41:38,850 S2: mentioned about the prophecy that Simeon gave her when Jesus 622 00:41:38,850 --> 00:41:41,170 S2: was still just a child, that a sword will pierce 623 00:41:41,170 --> 00:41:43,330 S2: your soul, that there's going to be a path of 624 00:41:43,330 --> 00:41:48,290 S2: suffering for a mother who loves her son. But secondly, um, 625 00:41:48,330 --> 00:41:52,009 S2: if you think about the gifts of the Magi, you know, 626 00:41:52,050 --> 00:41:56,330 S2: when they come to to visit the the king, they 627 00:41:56,330 --> 00:42:00,049 S2: bring the strangest gifts anyone has ever given a baby. 628 00:42:00,090 --> 00:42:05,790 S2: You know, they bring gold, frankincense and myrrh, and Frankincense 629 00:42:05,790 --> 00:42:13,830 S2: speaks of of priesthood. Um. Gold speaks of um, King kingship, 630 00:42:14,270 --> 00:42:17,989 S2: and myrrh speaks of death. Myrrh is the spice that 631 00:42:17,989 --> 00:42:23,189 S2: you would use to prepare a body for burial. So 632 00:42:23,230 --> 00:42:28,950 S2: there there are kind of prophetic preparations, I think, for Mary, 633 00:42:28,989 --> 00:42:32,790 S2: not just of the great significance of her son as Immanuel, 634 00:42:32,830 --> 00:42:35,989 S2: God with us, not just of the saving power. You 635 00:42:35,989 --> 00:42:38,590 S2: will call him Jesus, for he will save his people 636 00:42:38,590 --> 00:42:43,710 S2: from their sins, but also that there will be suffering, 637 00:42:43,710 --> 00:42:47,069 S2: and that the hint there of myrrh that you know 638 00:42:47,110 --> 00:42:50,669 S2: she is going to need to, you know, prepare that 639 00:42:50,670 --> 00:42:55,710 S2: body for burial. So the Friday and Saturday are, you know, 640 00:42:55,750 --> 00:42:58,910 S2: are going to be an important and integral part of 641 00:42:58,950 --> 00:43:00,750 S2: the salvation story. 642 00:43:00,950 --> 00:43:01,390 S4: Yes. 643 00:43:02,270 --> 00:43:04,489 S1: The the other thing that I think of is the 644 00:43:04,489 --> 00:43:09,210 S1: incremental nature of motherhood. You you cannot live for tomorrow. 645 00:43:09,250 --> 00:43:12,010 S1: You have to live. You can't live too far ahead. 646 00:43:12,410 --> 00:43:13,930 S1: You have to take it one day at a time, 647 00:43:13,969 --> 00:43:17,290 S1: one diaper at a time, you know? Uh, and then 648 00:43:17,330 --> 00:43:21,649 S1: and then the incremental nature of those early years. And 649 00:43:21,650 --> 00:43:25,530 S1: she must have pondered all of what that meant. Every, 650 00:43:25,770 --> 00:43:30,129 S1: every day, every every season that they went through and 651 00:43:30,130 --> 00:43:33,489 S1: the going up to Jerusalem and all the festivals and 652 00:43:33,489 --> 00:43:36,810 S1: the feasts and everything. And I also think that there 653 00:43:36,850 --> 00:43:40,690 S1: is an aspect of this, that the mother's voice speaks 654 00:43:40,690 --> 00:43:44,850 S1: through the son as well. Uh, when I speak here 655 00:43:44,850 --> 00:43:47,290 S1: on the radio every day, you're hearing a little bit 656 00:43:47,290 --> 00:43:50,009 S1: of my mom's, uh, you know, the stories that she 657 00:43:50,010 --> 00:43:53,089 S1: told me. You're hearing her humor that's coming through to me. 658 00:43:53,130 --> 00:43:55,850 S1: My father as well. But especially my mom, because she 659 00:43:55,850 --> 00:43:58,930 S1: was the one who read me stories and, you know, 660 00:43:59,210 --> 00:44:02,010 S1: pulled me onto her lap. And so I've been thinking 661 00:44:02,010 --> 00:44:05,509 S1: about that a lot. And then the new book that 662 00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:08,150 S1: you wrote that just came out in August, lead Like 663 00:44:08,150 --> 00:44:12,069 S1: the Real You wisdom for women on finding your voice, 664 00:44:12,070 --> 00:44:16,710 S1: pursuing God's calling and leading with courage. My guess is 665 00:44:16,989 --> 00:44:21,710 S1: there was something in that book that was spoken into 666 00:44:21,750 --> 00:44:24,110 S1: by writing about Mary. Am I right? 667 00:44:24,350 --> 00:44:28,070 S2: Yeah, I think so. I mean, part of the process 668 00:44:28,070 --> 00:44:33,790 S2: of writing Mary's voice was just realizing how amazing the 669 00:44:33,790 --> 00:44:38,150 S2: Christian faith is in its treatment of women. You know, 670 00:44:38,190 --> 00:44:44,149 S2: before Christianity came, women in the Greco-Roman world, as well 671 00:44:44,150 --> 00:44:47,549 S2: as the Jewish rabbinic world were very much second class citizens. 672 00:44:47,550 --> 00:44:51,469 S2: And you see that, you know, Paul says that famous phrase, 673 00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:54,870 S2: there's no Jew, no Greek, no male, no female, no slave, 674 00:44:54,910 --> 00:44:57,230 S2: no free, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. 675 00:44:57,230 --> 00:45:03,660 S2: And that, um, just the beauty Of how Jesus interacted 676 00:45:03,660 --> 00:45:08,100 S2: with women and women's role as witnesses and everything. And then, um, 677 00:45:08,380 --> 00:45:12,419 S2: I was reaching a point of midlife, you know, I'm 678 00:45:12,420 --> 00:45:16,739 S2: in my in midlife years and reflecting back on 25 679 00:45:16,739 --> 00:45:21,060 S2: years of ministry, you know, speaking in more than 40 countries, 680 00:45:21,660 --> 00:45:27,340 S2: often proclaiming the gospel and answering people's questions in universities 681 00:45:27,340 --> 00:45:33,420 S2: and parliaments and businesses, all kinds of settings. And, um, 682 00:45:33,420 --> 00:45:37,660 S2: just realizing, um, how amazing for, for me as a 683 00:45:37,660 --> 00:45:42,500 S2: woman to have had those opportunities, but also realizing that 684 00:45:42,500 --> 00:45:46,540 S2: I hadn't really had female mentors, I was often the 685 00:45:46,540 --> 00:45:51,020 S2: first woman to have some of those experiences. And so 686 00:45:51,060 --> 00:45:53,779 S2: lead like the Real You is a book of letters 687 00:45:53,780 --> 00:45:58,299 S2: written from me, a woman in midlife. Um, reflecting on 688 00:45:58,300 --> 00:46:01,240 S2: some of the things that it would have been helpful 689 00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,240 S2: to know five years ago, ten years ago, 20 years ago, 690 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:09,160 S2: and offered with humility to the next generation coming through 691 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,440 S2: to help women as well as men find our voices 692 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:14,520 S2: in these days. 693 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:16,160 S4: Well, what a treat to. 694 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,680 S1: Get to meet you, Amy, and thank you for writing 695 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:24,279 S1: this about Mary. And also that lead like the real you. 696 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:30,040 S1: You'll find information about those and her website at Chris Livorno. 697 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,279 S1: Chris Fabbri Livorno. Sorry, it took us a whole year 698 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,080 S1: to have you on the program, but I'm so glad 699 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:37,800 S1: we've done this. 700 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:38,760 S2: Thank you so much. 701 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:39,640 S1: Thanks for your heart. 702 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:40,520 S2: I really appreciate. 703 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:44,040 S1: It. Yeah, for your ministry, for your voice. And always 704 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,520 S1: remember Chris Fabbri lives production of Moody Radio, ministry of 705 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,160 S1: Moody Bible Institute.