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S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
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S1: Hi, friends. Welcome to in the Market with Janet Parshall.
S1: Get those dialing fingers ready because we're going to take
S1: up that ugly, awful, terrible wounding topic of narcissism. And
S1: we're going to do it as long as the phone
S1: lines keep lighting up. And you know what? Let the
S1: record reflect, your honor. They light up every time. Laurel
S1: Slade Wagner comes to visit. (877) 548-3675. Questions only (877) 548-3675. But
S1: any question you've got on the topic of narcissism. Now,
S1: let me just say a couple of opening remarks before
S1: I bring in my sweet friend Laurel Slade Wagner. I
S1: got to tell you, this is this is insidious. You know,
S1: I'm going to give you a movie reference. This is
S1: how my Mickey Mouse mind works. Remember the movie with
S1: Charlton Heston and the Ten Commandments? How was the Angel
S1: of death portrayed? Right. It's this green fog that works
S1: its way through the streets. Right? And it passes by
S1: the house where the blood has been spread over the
S1: top of the lintel. The framework of the door and
S1: the angel of death passed by. That's why it's called Passover.
S1: And it's really this brilliant Cecil B DeMille way of
S1: showing death, this green smoke that slithers under the front door.
S1: That's narcissism in my world. It slithers into somebody's life
S1: without them knowing it. It's not like a Pixar cartoon
S1: with a one man band coming, and he's playing, you know, drums,
S1: and he's blowing a harmonica, and he's got a trumpet
S1: that he plays and all of this at the same time.
S1: And oh, here comes the brass band. Oh, it's anything but.
S1: It is subtlety, its smoothness, its sophistication, its suave Ebola.
S1: It's getting the skin off a snake before you even
S1: know you've been skinned. It's terrible. It's absolutely an awful
S1: sinful condition, and it causes abuse and it causes pain
S1: and it causes drama, and it brings about generational impact.
S1: It's not to be trifled with. And so we're going
S1: to talk about it because first of all, if you
S1: pay any attention at all, we live in a world
S1: that's just growing, almost like in a lab somewhere. We're
S1: growing narcissists. I'm an influencer. I'm going to show you
S1: how I can put my eye makeup on, or I'm
S1: going to show you my cats because my cat's the
S1: most important thing in the world, and you need to
S1: see it on that thing. That sounds like a breath mint.
S1: I'm not even going to give them free publicity. The
S1: bottom line is now, when you're an influencer, by the way,
S1: did they vote somewhere? Did they give you that title
S1: because you won it somewhere? It's a self subscribed term
S1: I am influencing you. Tell me that doesn't smack of narcissism.
S1: So there's clearly an uptick of what's going on in
S1: our culture because there's so much self-aggrandizement. Give somebody a
S1: computer or a smartphone and man, the next thing you know,
S1: you got millions of followers. Ipso facto, you must be
S1: important because our worth is found in how many thumbs
S1: up you get, how many likes, how many reposts you get. Ooh, dangerous, challenging,
S1: interesting times. But it's really given rise to even more narcissists.
S1: And the problem is they don't show up in a uniform. Okay?
S1: They come in and they can be subtle and they
S1: can love bomb you, and they can be the deacons
S1: in the church, and they just seem all the most
S1: wonderful person in the world. And you get home and
S1: the mask comes off and then the abuse begins. But
S1: you don't show up in the pastor's office with a
S1: black eye or a broken arm, but you have wounds
S1: in the heart that are absolutely unbearable. And you keep
S1: thinking to yourself, I want to honor the Lord. I
S1: want to do what's right, but you're being continually abused, gaslit, triangulated,
S1: you name it. All of these fancy words that come
S1: out of the DSM and Psychology Today that are really
S1: manipulations to control another human being. And what happens to
S1: the victim? Well, they just think there's something wrong with them.
S1: Maybe if I just changed, maybe things would improve. Then
S1: God brings up people like Laurel who can say, I've
S1: been there, raised by narcissistic parents. My first husband was
S1: a narcissist. I can tell you the impact it has
S1: on our children, and I can tell you the damage
S1: that it's done. But in the meantime, she goes along
S1: and she gets a bunch of initials after her name
S1: becomes a board certified professional Christian counselor, a licensed mental
S1: health counselor, a licensed marriage and family therapist. She's been
S1: in Florida having a private practice for nigh on two decades.
S1: She writes books on the topic. She does a podcast
S1: called help! I have a narcissist in my life, and
S1: she's getting calls from all over the country for people
S1: who are dealing with exactly what I just described. Hence
S1: the reason the phone light up every time Laurel comes.
S1: You need that number again? I thought so. 87754836758775483675. Any question?
S1: You've got the two books that Laurel has written are
S1: called Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy. Subtitle. How
S1: to Stay Sane and Strong. When the narcissist in your
S1: life is trying to control or abuse you, I got
S1: all my info page. Uh, the second book is called uh.
S1: Don't let Their crazy Make your kids crazy how to
S1: shield your children from their narcissistic parents control and manipulation.
S1: And again, the free podcast is called help! I have
S1: a narcissist in my life. And if you want to
S1: go deeper professionally, privately, I have a link to Laurel's website.
S1: You can set that up and do it in a personal, private,
S1: professional vein rather than just asking a question on there.
S1: So all of that's there for you. Resource. We're pretty
S1: serious about this topic because you know what? Spring cleaning. Well,
S1: sometimes you do spring cleaning even in mid-summer. And we're
S1: lifting up the shades. We're turning back the carpet. The
S1: cockroaches are going to come out. We're going to do
S1: some housekeeping. So, Laurel, I made a statement and I
S1: want to see from your vantage point as a clinician,
S1: as a counselor, if, in fact, culturally, we're not having, um,
S1: almost harvesting farms full of narcissists. Uh, part of that
S1: is where we are as we're moving forward to Jesus's
S1: imminent return. Part of that is lovers of self. Part
S1: of that is taking Christ out of the equation. So
S1: who's going to sit on the throne of your life,
S1: but you as the influencer? And then all of these
S1: things are coupled together, and then you've got the fact
S1: that for the longest period of time we said in
S1: the church, oh, it's just selfishness. Give me your reaction
S1: to this.
S5: It's just nauseating to me and it's heartbreaking. So thank
S5: you once again for having me on Janet. It's just
S5: means so much to me that you have such a
S5: heart for these victims, because what you were saying earlier
S5: happens so many times. You were describing what a lot
S5: of my clients go through, that covert narcissism where they
S5: they look really good. They might be a deacon, they
S5: might be a very altruistic out in the community. But
S5: behind closed doors there's somebody very, very different. And our
S5: culture is feeding that sense of entitlement, feeding that, that
S5: need to be treated as if you're special. And so
S5: it is. It's just I think it's getting so much worse.
S5: And and it's just the victims. They really just don't
S5: have anywhere to go. The church is supposed to be
S5: a safe place, but a lot of my clients, they
S5: get marginalized even within the church because they don't have
S5: those bruises, or they don't have somebody that's addicted or
S5: somebody that is repetitively cheating on them. Um, so those victims,
S5: they they get marginalized, they get disregarded within the church.
S5: And so I'm just so thankful that that you're giving
S5: them a voice and victims can call in and and
S5: get some wisdom.
S1: Dear friend, that's you. That's not me. I just facilitate
S1: the conversation. You've got the compassion, you've got the gravitas,
S1: the ethos, and you've got the pain. You've been there.
S1: So you're speaking from your heart and your head and
S1: always from the Bible, which I think is so crucial.
S1: So be patient as we get your call stack. Because
S1: once again, a lot of people online. (877) 548-3675 Laurel Slade Wagner,
S1: our guest for the entire hour. She's so precious and
S1: the gift of her time just gives and gives and gives.
S1: And it's our topic for the entire hour. But you
S1: lead it. You get to ask the questions. She'll give
S1: the answer. 75483675. We'll take your calls right after this.
S1: Have you ever wondered why music moves us so deeply?
S1: Or why beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool
S1: this month is a thought provoking book that explores those
S1: moments of wonder we all encounter. It's called. Have You
S1: ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to
S1: the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have
S1: you ever wondered when you give a gift of any
S1: amount to in the market, call eight 7758, that's eight
S1: 7758 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S1: Laurel Slade Wagner is with us. Our topic is narcissism.
S1: And we are taking your calls at 87754836758775483675. Sherry, I'm
S1: going to start with you in Florida. Thanks for stopping by.
S1: Your question please. Sherry you are.
S6: Thank you. Yes. I'm here. I didn't hear the first part.
S6: I wasn't sure it was me. Sorry.
S1: That's quite all right.
S6: Welcome. Question is, how can you be a psych major?
S6: Work in medicine for 30 years, and you meet someone
S6: and they are the most charming, polite, gentleman, knowledgeable, well-read
S6: business person. And they turn out after 5 or 6
S6: years like an onion. Layers begin to peel away and
S6: you start to see this other person. Um, I just
S6: divorced one after 15 years and I had no idea
S6: what was wrong with him. I thought part of the
S6: problem was his body, because he was having back surgeries
S6: left and right and physical problems. So you kind of
S6: discount things. You think, oh, maybe the pain or this
S6: or that, because you could literally see color him turning
S6: beet red at times from pain. So I assumed it
S6: was pain. I never thought about narcissism come to turn out.
S6: It was in fact, a narcissist. Um, he began to
S6: borrow everything I had, inheritances, um, my clothing and things disappeared.
S6: I went home for my father's birthday in 2019, and, uh,
S6: came home and, um, everything was different. It was like
S6: a different person in our home. I began getting worried. People,
S6: my friends were telling me, stay away from the balcony.
S6: We lived on the second floor on the beach, um,
S6: in a condo. They didn't know each other, my two friends.
S6: But we'd been friends since seventh grade, and they both
S6: told me they were afraid he was going to throw
S6: me off the balcony and try to do me in
S6: because of the things he'd been doing. He started, um,
S6: driving at night when we would go out to dinner
S6: with people 95 miles an hour after dinner after we
S6: dropped them off.
S1: Sherry, let me stop you. Only because I've got every
S1: line lit, so. And you've laid this. You did a
S1: beautiful job of laying the background and some of the
S1: horrific things you've had to deal with. Is there a
S1: specific question that Laurel can help you with?
S6: How can you be sure that you do not repeat it?
S7: They're very good.
S6: Actors. Some of.
S7: Them. Mhm.
S1: Yeah that's a great question.
S5: It sure is a great question. And Sherry I just
S5: I think our Heavenly Father that you were able to
S5: break free from all of that narcissistic abuse because not
S5: a lot of people have the courage to do that.
S5: Not a lot of people have the ability to do
S5: that for one reason or another. So I think the
S5: Lord that you were able to do that and what
S5: you were describing is very, very typical. So in the beginning,
S5: they're not going to show their real colors. So narcissists
S5: learn how to get better at being narcissistic over time
S5: so they know what people respond to positively. They know
S5: what kinds of manipulation works for them. And so they
S5: gather all of this information, and it helps them to
S5: become more and more narcissistic and better at hiding that
S5: narcissism in the beginning. So they'll love Bomb you. Then
S5: after you've been with them over a period of time,
S5: then they'll start to reveal their true character. And so
S5: that's exactly what you experienced. And so there is I
S5: there's a lot of healing to do if you want
S5: to make sure that you don't repeat history. You self-reflect,
S5: you pray to God you that those search me and
S5: know me Lord. Um, you figure out, okay, so why
S5: in the world was I picking somebody narcissistic? There's lots
S5: of different reasons. Sometimes people are raised in really loving, stable, um,
S5: Christ centered homes, and it's just not part of their upbringing.
S5: They're just not even really aware that it's out there.
S5: And so they get blindsided. They get mesmerized by someone
S5: who is very charming and successful. So they just don't understand.
S5: That's why really, at the heart of my ministry, I
S5: want to help people understand what Matthew 1016, I think
S5: it's Matthew 1016 talks about is we need to be
S5: innocent as doves and shrewd as serpents. We need to
S5: understand Stand a biblical foolishness and wicked behavior. All those
S5: things that God talks about, we call modern day narcissism.
S5: And so you self-reflect. You learn why you picked. Pick
S5: somebody who's narcissistic. Another reason is this is my reality
S5: is I grew up in narcissism. So what was familiar
S5: to me, I thought was attraction, but it's actually called
S5: repetition compulsion. I wasn't really attracted to it as much
S5: as I felt comfortable around it, because it was familiar
S5: to me. And then also, this is my reality, part
S5: of my own brokenness. I'm very shy, introverted person, and
S5: so I was attracted to those grandiose, very super successful
S5: narcissists because I could be an extension of them. I
S5: could laugh at all their jokes. I didn't have to
S5: grow out of my shy shell. So, um, so my
S5: woundedness contributed to it. So you can work with a
S5: really good Christian counselor who specializes in trauma recovery, and
S5: that person can help you kind of go through your
S5: life story and figure out what led to this. And
S5: then I say, you have to do a lot of
S5: learning about healthy relationship dynamics and see what a narcissist,
S5: what something that narcissists do. They cannot tolerate being out
S5: of control. They cannot tolerate being told no. So I,
S5: I tell people when you're exploring new friendships or you're dating, um,
S5: say something that is a no to them very early on,
S5: see how they handle your no. Do they try to
S5: talk you out of your. No. Do they accept it,
S5: understand where you're coming from and and really want the
S5: best for you? Um, you'll start to see you'll grow
S5: these narcissistic antennas. I call them, where you're just able
S5: to spot those unhealthy dynamics and those, um, lack of
S5: mutuality that are present in a healthy relationship, that mutual respect,
S5: that mutual honesty, that mutual effort, um, and mutual ability
S5: to repent. Say sorry. Genuinely say sorry. Change behavior, and
S5: move forward for the good of everyone in the relationship
S5: and for the good of the relationship. So I don't
S5: want people to think, if you've had a narcissist in
S5: your life, that you're doomed to keep picking them. We're
S5: not with with God's grace and forgiveness and God's people
S5: and just all of the information that's out there and
S5: how God wants us to interact with each other. You
S5: won't fill your life with narcissists anymore.
S1: May you be encouraged by that response. Sharon, thank you
S1: so much for being a part of this conversation. I
S1: truly appreciate it. (877) 548-3675. And that's what this hour is
S1: all about. You call with your questions and Laurel Slade
S1: Wagner will answer them as we deal with the topic
S1: of narcissism. So be patient again as my team stacks
S1: your call because we will get you on the air. (877) 548-3675.
S1: And don't forget Laurel has a free podcast. Help! I
S1: have a narcissist in my life. Go to wherever you
S1: find your podcast. You can download that and that's a
S1: great resource for you. A couple of books that she's written. Excellent.
S1: All of that's on the information page. Go to in
S1: the market with Janet Parshall. Red box right under the
S1: hours description. Click it on takes you to the info page.
S1: More of your calls right after this. Board certified Christian
S1: counselor Laurel Slade Wagner is with us particular emphasis on narcissism,
S1: not just this hour, but in her practice. She does
S1: a fabulous job of comforting. People have really been wounded
S1: by this abusive personality disorder. (877) 548-3675. Brenda, you've been in Ohio.
S1: I so appreciate your patience and I'd love your question, please.
S8: Oh, thanks for taking my call. I have an employee who, um,
S8: I just thought was having lots and lots of problems. Um,
S8: and I've always tried to help her, um, even as
S8: far as allowing her to live with me when she
S8: was having some problems with an abusive husband. Um, she
S8: has three children. She's not the best employee and I've
S8: just always tried to help her. But now I'm feeling
S8: that it's a narcissistic personality that, um, she. She says
S8: bad things about me behind my back. Um, she doesn't
S8: recognize my authority. I mean, I'm her boss, but she
S8: doesn't recognize it. I, I don't know. I'm not sure
S8: how to deal with her that.
S5: You know what, Brenda? You you brought something up that's
S5: so important. Because a lot of people who are narcissistic,
S5: they do take advantage of the fact that we have
S5: Christ in our heart, and we want to please him,
S5: and we want to, um, extend help to other people. So, um,
S5: looking at her behavior. It's she's capitalizing on your good
S5: heartedness and your love for Christ and your love for people.
S5: And so that has to change. And so kind of
S5: putting her on a plan of change. You are her
S5: employer and it sounds like you're also her landlord. So
S5: it sounds like you have different positions of authority. So
S5: you can let her know that you you care for
S5: her very deeply. You want to help her, but you
S5: can no longer invest more than she's investing in herself.
S5: And so laying out, I call it a Joshua 2415
S5: plan of change because Joshua 2415 says, if serving the
S5: Lord is undesirable to you, you are free to choose
S5: what God you serve, whether it's the gods of your
S5: ancestors or the gods of the living land. But as
S5: for me and my household, I'm going to serve the Lord.
S5: And so that's where you want to make sure that
S5: you're you're loving her and you're giving her opportunity to
S5: invest in herself and get back on her feet. But
S5: you're not going to enable her to stay stagnant and
S5: to to not become what God wants her to become.
S5: We're we're called to carry our own loads in the Bible.
S5: And so you're you're helping her move toward that by
S5: setting these boundaries and getting her on a move out plan. Um,
S5: helping her launch back into being self-sufficient. That's the most
S5: loving thing that you can do for her. Instead of
S5: continuing to support her, especially if she's saying just disrespectful
S5: things behind your back, and she doesn't recognize the fact
S5: that you are in a position of authority. So you
S5: have these dual relationships with her, and so you have
S5: to invite her into this plan of change. Give her
S5: her free will. If she doesn't want to work that
S5: plan of change, then you're going to have to figure
S5: out how you're going to part ways, um, even sooner
S5: than you anticipated. And and just so that, you know,
S5: that is so loving, that is loving her like God
S5: loves all of us and giving her the best shot
S5: of becoming what God wants her to be.
S1: Thank you, Brenda so much for being a part of
S1: the conversation. Truly appreciate your question as well. George in Illinois,
S1: thanks for stopping by. Your question, please. Hi, George.
S9: Hello. How are you?
S1: I'm well, thank you. You're on the air. Please go ahead.
S9: Yes, yes, yes. I actually had a quick question. How can, uh,
S9: churches protect themselves from narcissistic pastors? I've been experiencing. And
S9: I know someone who actually approached a pastor about his
S9: narcissistic behavior, but because he's been there for so long
S9: and established at that church for so long, it's kind
S9: of difficult to help a pastor understand that he should
S9: change his ways about the way he's preaching sermons, or
S9: more about him than Christ. Um, what can we do
S9: to help the church understand that this can be a
S9: severe problem in narcissistic?
S5: Yes, it can be. And it is a big problem.
S5: We are seeing a lot of narcissism in pastors and
S5: worship leaders and people in positions of authority and at churches.
S5: And so, um, I'm not a pastor. I did not
S5: go to seminary. Um, but I would love it if
S5: seminary would teach, uh, church leadership and teach churches how
S5: to set up organizational systems so that there's checks and balances.
S5: So one person doesn't have all the decision making power. So, um,
S5: what do you do if there's a pastor who is
S5: sitting in some way? Churches need a system. They need
S5: some kind of organizational organizational structure so they can utilize
S5: that that beautiful process. Scripture in Matthew 1815 through 17
S5: that says, if your brother sins against you, go and
S5: work it out between the two of you. If they
S5: will not listen, then you bring the witnesses. They still
S5: won't listen. Then you bring it to the church or
S5: the leadership board and they still won't listen. Then you
S5: treat them like a pagan or a tax collector, which
S5: means you part ways. Um, so I would love, I
S5: would encourage all churches to set up systems of checks
S5: and balances where one person doesn't have all that decision
S5: making power. So find find some people within the church,
S5: get a board going. There's we've just got to take
S5: the power out of one person's hands. I would say
S5: that's the biggest thing.
S1: George, I bet you took a lot away from that.
S1: Thank you for the question. I think you were probably
S1: speaking for more people than we'd like to believe. So
S1: thank you for the question. 877 Because George's line is
S1: now open. (877) 548-3675 Laurel Slade Wagner is with us for
S1: the entire hour. One topic narcissism in all its iterations
S1: and the way in which it intersects with our lives.
S1: So this is your opportunity to get a great answer
S1: from a woman who really knows this. Don't forget. Also
S1: have a direct link to her website if you want
S1: to talk to her privately and professionally and go much
S1: deeper with your personal situation. You can do that through
S1: the website which sits right there on our information page.
S1: This is in the market with Janet Parshall. More with
S1: Laurel right after this. How do you keep your finger
S1: on the pulse of America while listening to the heartbeat
S1: of God's Word? On in the market, we look for
S1: God's perspective on current events, become a partial partner today,
S1: and keep this Christ centered program on the air. As
S1: a benefit, you'll receive exclusive resources every week prepared just
S1: for you. You'll get behind the scenes Intel from my
S1: email to yours. Call 877 Janet, 58, or go online
S1: to in the market with Janet Dot org. If you're
S1: just joining us, the warmest of welcomes and because of
S1: the modern technology, you didn't miss a thing. Just go
S1: to your favorite podcast site and download in the market
S1: with Janet Parshall. Pick today's date and our conversation with
S1: Laurel Slade Wagner and our topic, narcissism. Laurel, of course,
S1: is a board certified Professional Christian counselor, a licensed marriage
S1: and health family health counselor, a licensed marriage and family therapist.
S1: Been in Florida close to two decades. Private practice. I've
S1: got a link to her website on the information page.
S1: If you want to talk privately and professionally with her,
S1: you can set that up a couple of books I
S1: want to point out. Don't let their crazy make you crazy.
S1: How to stay sane and strong. When the narcissists in
S1: your life is trying to control or abuse you. Linked
S1: on my info page. And also don't let their crazy
S1: make your kids crazy. How to shield your children from
S1: their narcissistic parents control and manipulation. And don't forget, she
S1: also has a great free podcast called help! I have
S1: a narcissist in my life. 483675. That is our number. (877) 548-3675.
S1: And as is always the case. Which is why Laurel
S1: and I are going to keep going. Every line is lit.
S1: So be patient when you hear me say goodbye. The
S1: line opens up, but calling quick because they're being replaced immediately.
S1: You have been so patient in Illinois, Rob. I appreciate
S1: it more than you can know. Welcome to the conversation
S1: in your question, please.
S10: Well thank you. It's actually Bob, but.
S7: Oh.
S1: Bob, forgive.
S10: Me. On the other side of this, I'm actually the narcissist. And, uh,
S10: after 68 years, I've realized my self-centeredness is more than
S10: just that and decades of being married. I hear the
S10: other side. But how do I. How do I change?
S5: Bob. Oh my goodness, I'm so excited that you called in. So, um,
S5: I appreciate your humility and and taking ownership. That is definitely.
S5: Those two qualities are definitely not qualities we see in
S5: someone who has a personality disorder. Um, but I appreciate
S5: the fact that you're you're self-reflecting and you're wanting to change.
S5: And so, um, I would say learn about healthy relationships,
S5: get into some really good counseling, um, get a band
S5: of brothers that can walk through this with you. Um,
S5: a good book to read is I don't know if
S5: you've heard of Dallas Willard, but he has a fabulous
S5: book called renovation of the heart. And so that book
S5: can kind of walk you through what, um, a person of,
S5: of godly character is. So that's a really good read.
S5: It's a hard read, but it's a it's well worth it. Um,
S5: there's all kinds of, of organizations. Um, there's you can
S5: get into a Bible study at a church, there's organizations, um,
S5: like Trace Diaz or Walk to Emmaus, where you can
S5: develop a really, really solid band of brothers to do
S5: life with and to hold each other accountable for these
S5: changes that you want to make. I encourage you, um,
S5: if to do moral inventories and to people you, uh,
S5: God brings to mind that you hurt. Write them letters
S5: of apology. Take ownership. Um, make amends. Show them how
S5: you've changed. Be non-defensive. Uh, moving forward. Show them how
S5: they can trust you again. Be patient if that takes
S5: a really long time. Um, just all of these different
S5: things to to keep this, uh, to build fruit in
S5: keeping with repentance like the Bible talks about.
S1: I hope that's an encouragement. Bob, thank you for being
S1: a part of this conversation. How precious to hear a
S1: man who really wants to change. And I'm glad you
S1: gave him some hope, Laurel, because you don't have to
S1: stay where you are. And that's a good encouragement. 87754836758775483675.
S1: Cathy in Pennsylvania, welcome. And your question, please.
S11: Hi, Janet. My, um, so first of all, thank you
S11: for taking my call. And I'm excited about, um, talking
S11: with Laurel and I. My my question is, I have
S11: a friend. Um, it's a friend and family, um, whom
S11: we love, who is affected and abused daily by a
S11: narcissistic co-leader at work. And we listen, we hurt, um,
S11: but we've been hearing the same stories of abuse for years.
S11: We want to stand with the person, but we, our
S11: friend and family. But we don't know how to anymore.
S11: Even to, um, the point of this person has affected
S11: our friend and family, so much so that they're contemplating suicide.
S7: Um.
S5: Oh my goodness. So she she needs some help. Your
S5: your friend definitely needs some help. She's stuck. She doesn't
S5: know what to do. So she's at that place of, uh,
S5: being trauma bonded. What they call it. They call it
S5: trauma bonded because she's. She's just in this place where
S5: she's too afraid to make a change. She at some
S5: level wants that affirmation of that narcissistic person. She's been
S5: emotionally conditioned, um, that she will not be okay without
S5: that person. And so she. This happens quite a bit.
S5: She becomes paralyzed, and then all the people around her
S5: love her, and they can't stand to see her continue
S5: to allow herself to get abused. So, um, you've been
S5: very patient. You've been resourcing of her, you've been giving
S5: her love. So she needs to understand that there are
S5: healthy relationships out there. She needs to learn about what
S5: those are. She needs to understand that she's precious and
S5: she was not created to be treated this way, and
S5: she needs to understand that she's been emotionally conditioned to
S5: stay in this position of paralysis, and so that it's
S5: very common. And she needs help. And this is where
S5: this tough love is going to be really hard to do.
S5: But you love her too much to see her, um,
S5: stay stuck. Of course. If, if, if she is suicidal, um,
S5: you could do a well check. So if she says
S5: that she's suicidal or she says she doesn't want to
S5: live anymore, you take her at her word and you have,
S5: you can call the emergency police and say, I just
S5: want you to check on this person. She's articulated that,
S5: you know, she might be suicidal, and they'll go do
S5: a well check and just let her know that you
S5: love her too much, that if you hear those words
S5: from her, you're going to make sure that she gets
S5: some help. Um, every time that she says that. So
S5: sometimes people say that just out of exasperation. They're Exasperation.
S5: They're not truly suicidal. They're just they just can't see
S5: a way out of their pain. Um, so that's suicide,
S5: what they call suicidal ideation. She just doesn't want to
S5: be in her pain anymore. She doesn't necessarily want to
S5: kill herself, but she she just doesn't see a way
S5: out of her pain. Whatever it is, she needs to
S5: know that you're serious about getting her the help that
S5: she needs. And then if she won't help herself. That's
S5: where you say we. We love you too much. There's
S5: so many resources we've given you. There's Celebrate Recovery, where
S5: you can, um, be with other sisters in Christ who
S5: are going through what you're going through. Here's all these
S5: readings about healthy relationships. Here's all these readings about narcissism.
S5: Here's all these readings about abuse and counselors names. If
S5: you have resources or you've done everything, and that's where
S5: you're going to have to step back and say, we
S5: this is just too painful for us to watch you,
S5: not help yourself. We love you too much. Um, and
S5: that might encourage her. Like, wow, okay, they love me
S5: so much that they're they're willing to take a step
S5: back just so that I would be okay. And, um,
S5: and then pray and pray and pray that she gets connected.
S7: Mm.
S1: Cathy, thank you so much. What a good friend your
S1: friend has in you. Thank you for being here. Pat
S1: in Vermont. Welcome. Your question, please.
S12: Thank you. Um. God has lifted me out of a
S12: marriage to a covert narcissist. And I am also autistic.
S12: So I was wondering in your research if you found
S12: anything linked between neurodiverse neurodivergent people and and a more
S12: being more vulnerable to narcissistic abuse? And if so, why?
S5: Well, I would say that's not my area of expertise
S5: of working with autism, but I would say that, um, whatever,
S5: Whatever we struggle with, we have to look at what
S5: vulnerability that creates for us. So, um, whatever symptoms that
S5: you have within that disorder, what what is it specifically
S5: that would prohibit you from being like I was talking
S5: about before, innocent as a dove and shrewd as a serpent. So, um,
S5: and figuring out how you can neutralize all of that.
S5: So if it's something to do with a lack of
S5: affect and, and not really having those intense feelings when
S5: someone is, um, very abrasive toward you or shows you
S5: a lack of empathy. This is just an example. I
S5: don't know what you're struggling with, but let's say you're
S5: struggling with the lack of affect, and and you don't
S5: really feel that abrasion or you don't really feel that
S5: offense when someone offends you, then you have to do
S5: a lot of studying on a lack of empathy and
S5: how that presents and what that does to people. And
S5: so you start to learn from the outside in whatever
S5: you're struggling with that you don't have from the inside out,
S5: and you work with a professional counselor that can help
S5: you get through all of that so that you do
S5: not knit yourself together again with another narcissist. I praise
S5: the Lord like I did with the other caller, that
S5: God set you free from that abusive relationship with that
S5: covert narcissist. And like I was saying, you are not alone.
S5: That covert narcissism, it is so toxic and people suffer
S5: so much and for so long behind closed doors, especially
S5: within the church.
S1: Thank you, Pat, so very much for being with us,
S1: I appreciate it. (877) 548-3675. We're going to take a break.
S1: Come right back. Going right to the phones. As I
S1: come up to this break, don't forget to check out
S1: all the information that Laurel has for your perusal and
S1: for your comfort and healing right there on our website
S1: in the market with Janet Parshall. There's a description of
S1: both of the hours we do every day. Underneath that
S1: description is a red box. It says program details and audio.
S1: Click that on. It'll take it over to the information page.
S1: There's a longer bio for Laurel, a link to her
S1: website again for your use, so that if you want
S1: to talk to her privately and professionally, you can set
S1: it up right through that website. On the right hand side,
S1: there's the two books we've been talking about. And in addition,
S1: don't forget she has a podcast entitled simply help! I
S1: have a narcissist in my life. You can find that
S1: wherever you go to find your podcast. So let me
S1: take this break, come right back to the phones and
S1: we'll get more answers from Laurel right after this. Certified
S1: Christian Counselor Laurel Slade Wagner is our guest as she
S1: is monthly. As we take on this topic of narcissism.
S1: And if you could see my screen, every single line
S1: is lit, which says that I think we're tapping into
S1: some pain. Pain that's not often articulated. You don't know
S1: where to go to get answers. And boy, what a
S1: safe place. If you've got a wonderful, compassionate, tender Christian
S1: counselor in Laurel and she does a marvelous job of
S1: not only offering resources, but gentle counsel as well, always,
S1: always bathes in Scripture. Connie, thank you so much for
S1: your patience in California. Your question please.
S13: Well, thank you so much for taking my call. I
S13: need to know how to reestablish a relationship with my
S13: grown daughter. Um, I am a victim of a narcissistic
S13: ex-husband for 25 years. And in the breakup, she decided
S13: to live with her father, and she has picked up
S13: on his ways. And just recently, I decided that I
S13: had to let her know my boundary limits. That she
S13: cannot disrespect me down to my core like she did
S13: by insulting what I believe in in Jesus Christ and
S13: letting her know that I am her mother and not
S13: somebody that she can mistreat.
S5: I'm so glad to hear you say that. You, you know,
S5: at a heart level that you are precious and you
S5: are not created to be treated with that disrespect. Even
S5: if it's your own child who you love so much.
S5: And and I see this going on so much that, um,
S5: where the adult children are treating their non narcissistic parent
S5: the same way that they're that narcissist treated that non
S5: narcissistic parent. And so this is not something where you're alone.
S5: There are many, many people that are struggling in the
S5: same way that you are. And so I'm so glad
S5: to hear you say that. You set the boundaries and
S5: you have to grieve. You have to grieve the loss
S5: of who you want her to be. You have to
S5: grieve the loss of of who she is. That's, um,
S5: not what God wants her to be. And so you
S5: have to allow yourself to do all this grieving and
S5: get to that place of acceptance. Like, okay, this is
S5: who my daughter is at this point. Um, I raised
S5: her up in the way in the Lord, and I'm
S5: going to keep praying for her. And then you can
S5: set up some prayerfully. Just pray through set up some
S5: structure of, okay, I'm going to reach out, um, every
S5: so often in this safe way to see if things
S5: are different and to see if she's willing to work
S5: on things. So for now, since you gave her that information,
S5: that you're not going to let her treat her with disrespect,
S5: then just prayerfully set up a structure. So, okay, how
S5: am I going to reach out? Maybe send her a text, um,
S5: send her something of interest that she likes if she
S5: answers back with any kind of disrespect or condemnation. Or
S5: if she doesn't answer you, then you say, okay, Lord,
S5: thank you for revealing her character and where she is
S5: currently and I'm just going to connect through her, connect
S5: with her through prayer for now. And then you try again.
S5: You know, maybe a month from now or three months, um,
S5: you can also let her know what you're doing. You
S5: can say, I'm going to reach out blank. I'm going
S5: to reach out, uh, once a month, or I'm going
S5: to reach out once a quarter. Whatever you decide on
S5: and you you are revealing your character to her that way,
S5: whether she likes it or not. So if you reveal, hey,
S5: I'm going to do this, and then you're a woman
S5: of follow through and you follow through on what you
S5: told her you're going to do. Your character of integrity
S5: is going to shine through. And so it's going to
S5: impact her whether she acknowledges it to you or not
S5: right now. And so that's that's what all you can do. Um,
S5: from that standpoint, don't get into any divisive arguments with her. Don't, um,
S5: discredit her father. She is under his spell, and for
S5: whatever reason, she doesn't want to separate from him. She
S5: doesn't see his toxic traits. And so, um, you just
S5: pray that she does that. God reveals his true core
S5: identity to her, and she recognizes it. And at the
S5: same time, you're building that trust and you're revealing your
S5: own character. And I just I believe so wholeheartedly that
S5: we are all hardwired to desire what God has to give.
S5: And so just being someone who exudes the the fruit
S5: of the spirit and, and Christ's love, and that Christ's
S5: love sometimes is full of boundaries, um, and consistency. So I,
S5: I think she'll recognize Christ whether she wants to accept
S5: it right now or not. But I think those are
S5: the most powerful things you can do.
S1: Connie. Thank you. I hope you're encouraged by the answer,
S1: I truly do. Sarah in Missouri, I want to get
S1: your call in before the hour wraps up. Your question, please.
S14: So my question is, um, after 30 years, I know
S14: it's time to leave, and I'm trying to come up
S14: with a plan, and, um, I'm just struggling with. How
S14: do you leave without feeling guilty and feeling sorry for them?
S5: Sarah, that's a great question. And that's what I work
S5: on with the with a lot of my clients in
S5: the phone advice sessions because you invite, like I was
S5: saying a little bit earlier, you want to invite him
S5: into a plan of change. Um, that Joshua 2415 plan
S5: of change that I do have some of this information
S5: in the first book. Um, don't let the crazy make
S5: you crazy and the assertiveness chapter, but you invite them
S5: into a plan of change. Um, I say do it
S5: in writing. Um, you outline your needs in that plan
S5: of change, you invite him into this and then give
S5: him his free will. And if he doesn't, then that's
S5: where you start using that redemptive tool of separation. And
S5: it's not a punishment. The redemptive tool of separation is
S5: to give him time and space so that he can
S5: think about what you were saying and what your needs are,
S5: and how to respond to those in a loving way.
S5: So utilizing that redemptive tool of separation is all biblical.
S5: It's all based on Matthew 1815 through 17 and in.
S5: You're truly inviting him into a different way of life,
S5: but you're not going to sit and let him continue
S5: to abuse you any longer, because he's not really moving
S5: toward God that way. He's not moving toward becoming who
S5: God wants him to become, and nor can you, because
S5: you're constantly having to pick yourself up from all those
S5: abusive interactions and and you just can't focus on your
S5: relationship with the God or the healthy other people in
S5: your life if you're continuing to let him abuse you.
S5: So I hope that helps, Sarah.
S1: I hope so too. Sarah, thank you so much for
S1: being with us. To the rest of you, should the
S1: Lord allow first, last and always. And if Laurel is able,
S1: we'll do this again next month. So I'm so sorry
S1: we didn't get to your call. Please know our hearts.
S1: We are going to have these conversations as long as
S1: you keep calling in, particularly at this volume level, because
S1: it's an opportunity for you to let your voice be heard,
S1: to know that you are precious. You haven't been forgotten
S1: that God has a plan for your welfare. And so
S1: I really appreciate your calling in and love the way
S1: that with tenderness, Laurel Slade Wagner just keeps counseling you
S1: as you walk through this. You are not alone. So
S1: in the meantime, read her books. They're both there on
S1: the website if you want to talk to her privately
S1: and professionally, work that through the link to her direct
S1: website for her practice in Florida as well. I thank you, Laurel,
S1: so much from the bottom of my heart. And you, friends,
S1: we'll see you next time on In the Market with
S1: Janet Parshall.