WEBVTT - Hour 2: Dangerous Liaison 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.800 Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:06.920 and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens, 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.520 and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:11.440 But before you go, I want to tell you about 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.680 this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered? 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.720 And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me, 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.600 going out into the night sky and looking up and 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.439 seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.560 about God? And are you not in a moment of 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.960 awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.600 of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.800 that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.240 wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.480 of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.720 book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.879 from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.160 a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.599 this sense of awe through the work that they do. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.120 In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.440 it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.160 because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:03.520 to walk through the chapters written by people who all 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:06.280 have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.120 to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.440 amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount, 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:16.280 just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:19.160 for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:20.400 send it right off to you as my way of 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:22.920 saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:25.360 you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.400 When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner. 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:31.640 Those are people who give every single month at a 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.120 level of their own choosing. You always get the truth tool, 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.280 but in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.080 that includes my writing and an audio piece just for 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:43.200 my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58 or the website 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.839 in the market with Janet parshall.org consider becoming a partial 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:49.760 partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:53.080 ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast. 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:55.240 Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:57.840 The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.040 America's worshiping government over God. 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.720 Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years. 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:05.800 The Palestinians and the Israelis negotiated. 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:23.680 Hi, friends. Welcome to in the Market with Janet Parshall. 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:25.720 Get those dialing fingers ready because we're going to take 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:30.880 up that ugly, awful, terrible wounding topic of narcissism. And 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:32.440 we're going to do it as long as the phone 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:34.520 lines keep lighting up. And you know what? Let the 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:36.840 record reflect, your honor. They light up every time. Laurel 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:46.040 Slade Wagner comes to visit. (877) 548-3675. Questions only (877) 548-3675. But 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.400 any question you've got on the topic of narcissism. Now, 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:51.360 let me just say a couple of opening remarks before 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:53.920 I bring in my sweet friend Laurel Slade Wagner. I 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:57.040 got to tell you, this is this is insidious. You know, 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:58.800 I'm going to give you a movie reference. This is 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:00.880 how my Mickey Mouse mind works. Remember the movie with 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.640 Charlton Heston and the Ten Commandments? How was the Angel 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.120 of death portrayed? Right. It's this green fog that works 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:10.399 its way through the streets. Right? And it passes by 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:12.200 the house where the blood has been spread over the 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.240 top of the lintel. The framework of the door and 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:18.440 the angel of death passed by. That's why it's called Passover. 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.119 And it's really this brilliant Cecil B DeMille way of 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:26.480 showing death, this green smoke that slithers under the front door. 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.600 That's narcissism in my world. It slithers into somebody's life 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:32.960 without them knowing it. It's not like a Pixar cartoon 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:36.080 with a one man band coming, and he's playing, you know, drums, 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.320 and he's blowing a harmonica, and he's got a trumpet 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:39.920 that he plays and all of this at the same time. 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.520 And oh, here comes the brass band. Oh, it's anything but. 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:47.560 It is subtlety, its smoothness, its sophistication, its suave Ebola. 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.440 It's getting the skin off a snake before you even 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:54.600 know you've been skinned. It's terrible. It's absolutely an awful 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.880 sinful condition, and it causes abuse and it causes pain 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:02.119 and it causes drama, and it brings about generational impact. 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.760 It's not to be trifled with. And so we're going 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.360 to talk about it because first of all, if you 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:09.040 pay any attention at all, we live in a world 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:11.640 that's just growing, almost like in a lab somewhere. We're 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.640 growing narcissists. I'm an influencer. I'm going to show you 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:16.480 how I can put my eye makeup on, or I'm 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:18.560 going to show you my cats because my cat's the 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:20.240 most important thing in the world, and you need to 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.440 see it on that thing. That sounds like a breath mint. 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:25.080 I'm not even going to give them free publicity. The 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.960 bottom line is now, when you're an influencer, by the way, 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.400 did they vote somewhere? Did they give you that title 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.839 because you won it somewhere? It's a self subscribed term 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.760 I am influencing you. Tell me that doesn't smack of narcissism. 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:40.240 So there's clearly an uptick of what's going on in 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:43.680 our culture because there's so much self-aggrandizement. Give somebody a 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.159 computer or a smartphone and man, the next thing you know, 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:49.400 you got millions of followers. Ipso facto, you must be 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:52.400 important because our worth is found in how many thumbs 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:57.320 up you get, how many likes, how many reposts you get. Ooh, dangerous, challenging, 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:01.159 interesting times. But it's really given rise to even more narcissists. 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.799 And the problem is they don't show up in a uniform. Okay? 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:07.240 They come in and they can be subtle and they 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.360 can love bomb you, and they can be the deacons 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:11.360 in the church, and they just seem all the most 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:13.719 wonderful person in the world. And you get home and 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.600 the mask comes off and then the abuse begins. But 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:18.640 you don't show up in the pastor's office with a 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:20.920 black eye or a broken arm, but you have wounds 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:23.640 in the heart that are absolutely unbearable. And you keep 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:25.960 thinking to yourself, I want to honor the Lord. I 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:31.800 want to do what's right, but you're being continually abused, gaslit, triangulated, 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.560 you name it. All of these fancy words that come 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:38.000 out of the DSM and Psychology Today that are really 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:42.440 manipulations to control another human being. And what happens to 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:44.920 the victim? Well, they just think there's something wrong with them. 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.920 Maybe if I just changed, maybe things would improve. Then 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.679 God brings up people like Laurel who can say, I've 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.760 been there, raised by narcissistic parents. My first husband was 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:56.640 a narcissist. I can tell you the impact it has 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:58.719 on our children, and I can tell you the damage 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:00.880 that it's done. But in the meantime, she goes along 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:02.720 and she gets a bunch of initials after her name 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:06.279 becomes a board certified professional Christian counselor, a licensed mental 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.960 health counselor, a licensed marriage and family therapist. She's been 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.200 in Florida having a private practice for nigh on two decades. 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.000 She writes books on the topic. She does a podcast 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.359 called help! I have a narcissist in my life, and 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:19.839 she's getting calls from all over the country for people 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:23.200 who are dealing with exactly what I just described. Hence 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:25.880 the reason the phone light up every time Laurel comes. 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:34.479 You need that number again? I thought so. 87754836758775483675. Any question? 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:36.159 You've got the two books that Laurel has written are 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.480 called Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy. Subtitle. How 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:41.800 to Stay Sane and Strong. When the narcissist in your 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:43.800 life is trying to control or abuse you, I got 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.440 all my info page. Uh, the second book is called uh. 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.080 Don't let Their crazy Make your kids crazy how to 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.680 shield your children from their narcissistic parents control and manipulation. 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:56.240 And again, the free podcast is called help! I have 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.000 a narcissist in my life. And if you want to 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:02.120 go deeper professionally, privately, I have a link to Laurel's website. 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:04.600 You can set that up and do it in a personal, private, 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.600 professional vein rather than just asking a question on there. 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:09.600 So all of that's there for you. Resource. We're pretty 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.040 serious about this topic because you know what? Spring cleaning. Well, 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.360 sometimes you do spring cleaning even in mid-summer. And we're 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:17.640 lifting up the shades. We're turning back the carpet. The 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:19.240 cockroaches are going to come out. We're going to do 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:21.680 some housekeeping. So, Laurel, I made a statement and I 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.040 want to see from your vantage point as a clinician, 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:29.440 as a counselor, if, in fact, culturally, we're not having, um, 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:34.200 almost harvesting farms full of narcissists. Uh, part of that 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.080 is where we are as we're moving forward to Jesus's 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.400 imminent return. Part of that is lovers of self. Part 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:43.080 of that is taking Christ out of the equation. So 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:44.800 who's going to sit on the throne of your life, 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.160 but you as the influencer? And then all of these 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.110 things are coupled together, and then you've got the fact 0:07:51.110 --> 0:07:53.190 that for the longest period of time we said in 0:07:53.190 --> 0:07:55.710 the church, oh, it's just selfishness. Give me your reaction 0:07:55.710 --> 0:07:56.230 to this. 0:07:57.950 --> 0:08:02.150 It's just nauseating to me and it's heartbreaking. So thank 0:08:02.150 --> 0:08:05.190 you once again for having me on Janet. It's just 0:08:05.190 --> 0:08:07.830 means so much to me that you have such a 0:08:07.830 --> 0:08:10.990 heart for these victims, because what you were saying earlier 0:08:11.030 --> 0:08:13.910 happens so many times. You were describing what a lot 0:08:13.910 --> 0:08:18.710 of my clients go through, that covert narcissism where they 0:08:18.710 --> 0:08:20.910 they look really good. They might be a deacon, they 0:08:20.910 --> 0:08:24.790 might be a very altruistic out in the community. But 0:08:24.790 --> 0:08:27.750 behind closed doors there's somebody very, very different. And our 0:08:27.750 --> 0:08:33.069 culture is feeding that sense of entitlement, feeding that, that 0:08:33.110 --> 0:08:36.910 need to be treated as if you're special. And so 0:08:36.950 --> 0:08:40.110 it is. It's just I think it's getting so much worse. 0:08:40.150 --> 0:08:44.230 And and it's just the victims. They really just don't 0:08:44.230 --> 0:08:47.470 have anywhere to go. The church is supposed to be 0:08:47.470 --> 0:08:50.150 a safe place, but a lot of my clients, they 0:08:50.150 --> 0:08:53.150 get marginalized even within the church because they don't have 0:08:53.390 --> 0:08:56.510 those bruises, or they don't have somebody that's addicted or 0:08:56.510 --> 0:09:02.310 somebody that is repetitively cheating on them. Um, so those victims, 0:09:02.309 --> 0:09:06.910 they they get marginalized, they get disregarded within the church. 0:09:06.910 --> 0:09:09.470 And so I'm just so thankful that that you're giving 0:09:09.470 --> 0:09:12.110 them a voice and victims can call in and and 0:09:12.110 --> 0:09:13.189 get some wisdom. 0:09:13.350 --> 0:09:15.710 Dear friend, that's you. That's not me. I just facilitate 0:09:15.710 --> 0:09:19.470 the conversation. You've got the compassion, you've got the gravitas, 0:09:19.470 --> 0:09:21.990 the ethos, and you've got the pain. You've been there. 0:09:21.990 --> 0:09:24.350 So you're speaking from your heart and your head and 0:09:24.350 --> 0:09:26.670 always from the Bible, which I think is so crucial. 0:09:26.870 --> 0:09:28.870 So be patient as we get your call stack. Because 0:09:28.870 --> 0:09:35.270 once again, a lot of people online. (877) 548-3675 Laurel Slade Wagner, 0:09:35.309 --> 0:09:37.469 our guest for the entire hour. She's so precious and 0:09:37.470 --> 0:09:39.790 the gift of her time just gives and gives and gives. 0:09:40.030 --> 0:09:42.390 And it's our topic for the entire hour. But you 0:09:42.390 --> 0:09:44.230 lead it. You get to ask the questions. She'll give 0:09:44.230 --> 0:09:49.070 the answer. 75483675. We'll take your calls right after this. 0:09:57.270 --> 0:09:59.590 Have you ever wondered why music moves us so deeply? 0:09:59.590 --> 0:10:02.230 Or why beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool 0:10:02.230 --> 0:10:04.590 this month is a thought provoking book that explores those 0:10:04.590 --> 0:10:06.870 moments of wonder we all encounter. It's called. Have You 0:10:06.870 --> 0:10:10.150 ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to 0:10:10.190 --> 0:10:13.510 the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have 0:10:13.510 --> 0:10:15.150 you ever wondered when you give a gift of any 0:10:15.150 --> 0:10:18.870 amount to in the market, call eight 7758, that's eight 0:10:18.870 --> 0:10:22.670 7758 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. 0:10:25.550 --> 0:10:28.310 Laurel Slade Wagner is with us. Our topic is narcissism. 0:10:28.309 --> 0:10:37.150 And we are taking your calls at 87754836758775483675. Sherry, I'm 0:10:37.150 --> 0:10:39.190 going to start with you in Florida. Thanks for stopping by. 0:10:39.230 --> 0:10:44.350 Your question please. Sherry you are. 0:10:44.590 --> 0:10:47.110 Thank you. Yes. I'm here. I didn't hear the first part. 0:10:47.110 --> 0:10:48.470 I wasn't sure it was me. Sorry. 0:10:48.910 --> 0:10:49.630 That's quite all right. 0:10:49.630 --> 0:10:53.030 Welcome. Question is, how can you be a psych major? 0:10:53.030 --> 0:10:55.989 Work in medicine for 30 years, and you meet someone 0:10:55.990 --> 0:11:01.910 and they are the most charming, polite, gentleman, knowledgeable, well-read 0:11:02.070 --> 0:11:06.150 business person. And they turn out after 5 or 6 0:11:06.150 --> 0:11:09.069 years like an onion. Layers begin to peel away and 0:11:09.070 --> 0:11:12.470 you start to see this other person. Um, I just 0:11:12.470 --> 0:11:16.550 divorced one after 15 years and I had no idea 0:11:16.550 --> 0:11:18.670 what was wrong with him. I thought part of the 0:11:18.670 --> 0:11:21.949 problem was his body, because he was having back surgeries 0:11:21.950 --> 0:11:24.350 left and right and physical problems. So you kind of 0:11:24.390 --> 0:11:27.670 discount things. You think, oh, maybe the pain or this 0:11:27.670 --> 0:11:30.910 or that, because you could literally see color him turning 0:11:30.950 --> 0:11:33.350 beet red at times from pain. So I assumed it 0:11:33.350 --> 0:11:37.710 was pain. I never thought about narcissism come to turn out. 0:11:37.750 --> 0:11:41.470 It was in fact, a narcissist. Um, he began to 0:11:41.550 --> 0:11:47.550 borrow everything I had, inheritances, um, my clothing and things disappeared. 0:11:47.550 --> 0:11:52.709 I went home for my father's birthday in 2019, and, uh, 0:11:52.710 --> 0:11:55.990 came home and, um, everything was different. It was like 0:11:55.990 --> 0:12:00.990 a different person in our home. I began getting worried. People, 0:12:00.990 --> 0:12:03.230 my friends were telling me, stay away from the balcony. 0:12:03.230 --> 0:12:05.870 We lived on the second floor on the beach, um, 0:12:05.990 --> 0:12:09.030 in a condo. They didn't know each other, my two friends. 0:12:09.030 --> 0:12:11.709 But we'd been friends since seventh grade, and they both 0:12:11.710 --> 0:12:13.470 told me they were afraid he was going to throw 0:12:13.470 --> 0:12:15.550 me off the balcony and try to do me in 0:12:15.590 --> 0:12:18.709 because of the things he'd been doing. He started, um, 0:12:18.790 --> 0:12:20.830 driving at night when we would go out to dinner 0:12:20.830 --> 0:12:24.030 with people 95 miles an hour after dinner after we 0:12:24.070 --> 0:12:24.910 dropped them off. 0:12:25.070 --> 0:12:26.990 Sherry, let me stop you. Only because I've got every 0:12:26.990 --> 0:12:29.470 line lit, so. And you've laid this. You did a 0:12:29.470 --> 0:12:31.950 beautiful job of laying the background and some of the 0:12:31.950 --> 0:12:34.110 horrific things you've had to deal with. Is there a 0:12:34.110 --> 0:12:36.390 specific question that Laurel can help you with? 0:12:37.270 --> 0:12:40.910 How can you be sure that you do not repeat it? 0:12:41.790 --> 0:12:42.390 They're very good. 0:12:42.390 --> 0:12:43.150 Actors. Some of. 0:12:43.150 --> 0:12:43.950 Them. Mhm. 0:12:43.990 --> 0:12:46.430 Yeah that's a great question. 0:12:46.950 --> 0:12:49.470 It sure is a great question. And Sherry I just 0:12:49.470 --> 0:12:52.750 I think our Heavenly Father that you were able to 0:12:52.750 --> 0:12:55.950 break free from all of that narcissistic abuse because not 0:12:55.950 --> 0:12:58.550 a lot of people have the courage to do that. 0:12:58.550 --> 0:13:01.309 Not a lot of people have the ability to do 0:13:01.309 --> 0:13:03.950 that for one reason or another. So I think the 0:13:03.950 --> 0:13:06.350 Lord that you were able to do that and what 0:13:06.350 --> 0:13:09.470 you were describing is very, very typical. So in the beginning, 0:13:09.510 --> 0:13:12.469 they're not going to show their real colors. So narcissists 0:13:12.510 --> 0:13:16.829 learn how to get better at being narcissistic over time 0:13:16.830 --> 0:13:20.790 so they know what people respond to positively. They know 0:13:20.790 --> 0:13:24.470 what kinds of manipulation works for them. And so they 0:13:24.470 --> 0:13:27.470 gather all of this information, and it helps them to 0:13:27.510 --> 0:13:30.790 become more and more narcissistic and better at hiding that 0:13:30.790 --> 0:13:34.550 narcissism in the beginning. So they'll love Bomb you. Then 0:13:34.550 --> 0:13:37.630 after you've been with them over a period of time, 0:13:37.630 --> 0:13:40.710 then they'll start to reveal their true character. And so 0:13:40.750 --> 0:13:45.750 that's exactly what you experienced. And so there is I 0:13:46.030 --> 0:13:48.470 there's a lot of healing to do if you want 0:13:48.470 --> 0:13:52.790 to make sure that you don't repeat history. You self-reflect, 0:13:52.790 --> 0:13:55.990 you pray to God you that those search me and 0:13:55.990 --> 0:14:00.069 know me Lord. Um, you figure out, okay, so why 0:14:00.070 --> 0:14:04.030 in the world was I picking somebody narcissistic? There's lots 0:14:04.030 --> 0:14:09.710 of different reasons. Sometimes people are raised in really loving, stable, um, 0:14:09.710 --> 0:14:13.630 Christ centered homes, and it's just not part of their upbringing. 0:14:13.630 --> 0:14:15.949 They're just not even really aware that it's out there. 0:14:15.990 --> 0:14:21.110 And so they get blindsided. They get mesmerized by someone 0:14:21.110 --> 0:14:25.430 who is very charming and successful. So they just don't understand. 0:14:25.430 --> 0:14:28.110 That's why really, at the heart of my ministry, I 0:14:28.110 --> 0:14:31.790 want to help people understand what Matthew 1016, I think 0:14:31.790 --> 0:14:34.630 it's Matthew 1016 talks about is we need to be 0:14:34.630 --> 0:14:37.470 innocent as doves and shrewd as serpents. We need to 0:14:37.470 --> 0:14:42.110 understand Stand a biblical foolishness and wicked behavior. All those 0:14:42.110 --> 0:14:46.150 things that God talks about, we call modern day narcissism. 0:14:46.150 --> 0:14:50.390 And so you self-reflect. You learn why you picked. Pick 0:14:50.390 --> 0:14:54.230 somebody who's narcissistic. Another reason is this is my reality 0:14:54.230 --> 0:14:58.510 is I grew up in narcissism. So what was familiar 0:14:58.510 --> 0:15:01.630 to me, I thought was attraction, but it's actually called 0:15:01.630 --> 0:15:06.190 repetition compulsion. I wasn't really attracted to it as much 0:15:06.190 --> 0:15:08.950 as I felt comfortable around it, because it was familiar 0:15:08.950 --> 0:15:12.150 to me. And then also, this is my reality, part 0:15:12.150 --> 0:15:16.230 of my own brokenness. I'm very shy, introverted person, and 0:15:16.230 --> 0:15:20.910 so I was attracted to those grandiose, very super successful 0:15:20.950 --> 0:15:23.510 narcissists because I could be an extension of them. I 0:15:23.510 --> 0:15:27.230 could laugh at all their jokes. I didn't have to 0:15:27.270 --> 0:15:30.990 grow out of my shy shell. So, um, so my 0:15:30.990 --> 0:15:34.670 woundedness contributed to it. So you can work with a 0:15:34.750 --> 0:15:39.150 really good Christian counselor who specializes in trauma recovery, and 0:15:39.150 --> 0:15:41.710 that person can help you kind of go through your 0:15:41.710 --> 0:15:44.550 life story and figure out what led to this. And 0:15:44.550 --> 0:15:46.310 then I say, you have to do a lot of 0:15:46.310 --> 0:15:51.630 learning about healthy relationship dynamics and see what a narcissist, 0:15:52.310 --> 0:15:55.270 what something that narcissists do. They cannot tolerate being out 0:15:55.310 --> 0:15:59.550 of control. They cannot tolerate being told no. So I, 0:15:59.590 --> 0:16:04.110 I tell people when you're exploring new friendships or you're dating, um, 0:16:04.510 --> 0:16:08.670 say something that is a no to them very early on, 0:16:08.710 --> 0:16:10.310 see how they handle your no. Do they try to 0:16:10.310 --> 0:16:13.030 talk you out of your. No. Do they accept it, 0:16:13.030 --> 0:16:16.590 understand where you're coming from and and really want the 0:16:16.590 --> 0:16:19.670 best for you? Um, you'll start to see you'll grow 0:16:19.710 --> 0:16:23.110 these narcissistic antennas. I call them, where you're just able 0:16:23.110 --> 0:16:27.110 to spot those unhealthy dynamics and those, um, lack of 0:16:27.110 --> 0:16:31.070 mutuality that are present in a healthy relationship, that mutual respect, 0:16:31.070 --> 0:16:35.790 that mutual honesty, that mutual effort, um, and mutual ability 0:16:35.910 --> 0:16:40.430 to repent. Say sorry. Genuinely say sorry. Change behavior, and 0:16:40.430 --> 0:16:43.710 move forward for the good of everyone in the relationship 0:16:43.710 --> 0:16:46.710 and for the good of the relationship. So I don't 0:16:46.710 --> 0:16:49.230 want people to think, if you've had a narcissist in 0:16:49.230 --> 0:16:52.190 your life, that you're doomed to keep picking them. We're 0:16:52.190 --> 0:16:57.310 not with with God's grace and forgiveness and God's people 0:16:57.310 --> 0:17:00.630 and just all of the information that's out there and 0:17:00.630 --> 0:17:02.710 how God wants us to interact with each other. You 0:17:02.710 --> 0:17:05.310 won't fill your life with narcissists anymore. 0:17:06.310 --> 0:17:08.669 May you be encouraged by that response. Sharon, thank you 0:17:08.670 --> 0:17:10.630 so much for being a part of this conversation. I 0:17:10.630 --> 0:17:15.550 truly appreciate it. (877) 548-3675. And that's what this hour is 0:17:15.550 --> 0:17:18.270 all about. You call with your questions and Laurel Slade 0:17:18.270 --> 0:17:20.629 Wagner will answer them as we deal with the topic 0:17:20.630 --> 0:17:23.830 of narcissism. So be patient again as my team stacks 0:17:23.830 --> 0:17:28.590 your call because we will get you on the air. (877) 548-3675. 0:17:28.590 --> 0:17:31.070 And don't forget Laurel has a free podcast. Help! I 0:17:31.109 --> 0:17:33.030 have a narcissist in my life. Go to wherever you 0:17:33.030 --> 0:17:35.109 find your podcast. You can download that and that's a 0:17:35.109 --> 0:17:38.150 great resource for you. A couple of books that she's written. Excellent. 0:17:38.150 --> 0:17:40.070 All of that's on the information page. Go to in 0:17:40.109 --> 0:17:43.630 the market with Janet Parshall. Red box right under the 0:17:43.630 --> 0:17:46.189 hours description. Click it on takes you to the info page. 0:17:46.190 --> 0:17:58.190 More of your calls right after this. Board certified Christian 0:17:58.190 --> 0:18:02.470 counselor Laurel Slade Wagner is with us particular emphasis on narcissism, 0:18:02.470 --> 0:18:05.630 not just this hour, but in her practice. She does 0:18:05.630 --> 0:18:08.310 a fabulous job of comforting. People have really been wounded 0:18:08.310 --> 0:18:14.710 by this abusive personality disorder. (877) 548-3675. Brenda, you've been in Ohio. 0:18:14.750 --> 0:18:17.830 I so appreciate your patience and I'd love your question, please. 0:18:18.910 --> 0:18:23.830 Oh, thanks for taking my call. I have an employee who, um, 0:18:23.950 --> 0:18:29.350 I just thought was having lots and lots of problems. Um, 0:18:29.350 --> 0:18:32.630 and I've always tried to help her, um, even as 0:18:32.630 --> 0:18:35.070 far as allowing her to live with me when she 0:18:35.070 --> 0:18:39.270 was having some problems with an abusive husband. Um, she 0:18:39.270 --> 0:18:42.950 has three children. She's not the best employee and I've 0:18:42.950 --> 0:18:45.869 just always tried to help her. But now I'm feeling 0:18:46.310 --> 0:18:53.109 that it's a narcissistic personality that, um, she. She says 0:18:53.109 --> 0:18:58.590 bad things about me behind my back. Um, she doesn't 0:18:58.910 --> 0:19:02.790 recognize my authority. I mean, I'm her boss, but she 0:19:03.550 --> 0:19:06.550 doesn't recognize it. I, I don't know. I'm not sure 0:19:06.550 --> 0:19:10.470 how to deal with her that. 0:19:10.510 --> 0:19:12.950 You know what, Brenda? You you brought something up that's 0:19:12.950 --> 0:19:17.830 so important. Because a lot of people who are narcissistic, 0:19:17.869 --> 0:19:21.150 they do take advantage of the fact that we have 0:19:21.150 --> 0:19:23.950 Christ in our heart, and we want to please him, 0:19:23.950 --> 0:19:29.670 and we want to, um, extend help to other people. So, um, 0:19:30.230 --> 0:19:36.950 looking at her behavior. It's she's capitalizing on your good 0:19:37.030 --> 0:19:39.990 heartedness and your love for Christ and your love for people. 0:19:39.990 --> 0:19:45.149 And so that has to change. And so kind of 0:19:45.190 --> 0:19:49.470 putting her on a plan of change. You are her 0:19:49.470 --> 0:19:53.109 employer and it sounds like you're also her landlord. So 0:19:53.150 --> 0:19:57.510 it sounds like you have different positions of authority. So 0:19:58.109 --> 0:20:00.790 you can let her know that you you care for 0:20:00.790 --> 0:20:04.350 her very deeply. You want to help her, but you 0:20:04.350 --> 0:20:09.629 can no longer invest more than she's investing in herself. 0:20:09.630 --> 0:20:14.470 And so laying out, I call it a Joshua 2415 0:20:14.470 --> 0:20:18.310 plan of change because Joshua 2415 says, if serving the 0:20:18.310 --> 0:20:21.590 Lord is undesirable to you, you are free to choose 0:20:21.590 --> 0:20:24.110 what God you serve, whether it's the gods of your 0:20:24.109 --> 0:20:26.670 ancestors or the gods of the living land. But as 0:20:26.670 --> 0:20:29.270 for me and my household, I'm going to serve the Lord. 0:20:29.270 --> 0:20:32.109 And so that's where you want to make sure that 0:20:32.109 --> 0:20:36.430 you're you're loving her and you're giving her opportunity to 0:20:36.470 --> 0:20:39.710 invest in herself and get back on her feet. But 0:20:39.710 --> 0:20:44.869 you're not going to enable her to stay stagnant and 0:20:44.869 --> 0:20:49.190 to to not become what God wants her to become. 0:20:49.230 --> 0:20:52.230 We're we're called to carry our own loads in the Bible. 0:20:52.230 --> 0:20:56.109 And so you're you're helping her move toward that by 0:20:56.109 --> 0:21:01.030 setting these boundaries and getting her on a move out plan. Um, 0:21:01.350 --> 0:21:06.910 helping her launch back into being self-sufficient. That's the most 0:21:06.910 --> 0:21:09.790 loving thing that you can do for her. Instead of 0:21:09.790 --> 0:21:15.270 continuing to support her, especially if she's saying just disrespectful 0:21:15.270 --> 0:21:18.629 things behind your back, and she doesn't recognize the fact 0:21:18.670 --> 0:21:22.310 that you are in a position of authority. So you 0:21:22.310 --> 0:21:26.150 have these dual relationships with her, and so you have 0:21:26.150 --> 0:21:28.990 to invite her into this plan of change. Give her 0:21:28.990 --> 0:21:30.790 her free will. If she doesn't want to work that 0:21:30.790 --> 0:21:33.750 plan of change, then you're going to have to figure 0:21:33.750 --> 0:21:37.310 out how you're going to part ways, um, even sooner 0:21:37.510 --> 0:21:41.070 than you anticipated. And and just so that, you know, 0:21:41.109 --> 0:21:44.390 that is so loving, that is loving her like God 0:21:44.390 --> 0:21:48.109 loves all of us and giving her the best shot 0:21:48.150 --> 0:21:50.230 of becoming what God wants her to be. 0:21:51.790 --> 0:21:53.429 Thank you, Brenda so much for being a part of 0:21:53.430 --> 0:21:56.830 the conversation. Truly appreciate your question as well. George in Illinois, 0:21:56.830 --> 0:22:03.470 thanks for stopping by. Your question, please. Hi, George. 0:22:04.190 --> 0:22:05.230 Hello. How are you? 0:22:05.270 --> 0:22:07.430 I'm well, thank you. You're on the air. Please go ahead. 0:22:07.910 --> 0:22:11.350 Yes, yes, yes. I actually had a quick question. How can, uh, 0:22:11.470 --> 0:22:16.869 churches protect themselves from narcissistic pastors? I've been experiencing. And 0:22:16.869 --> 0:22:20.270 I know someone who actually approached a pastor about his 0:22:20.270 --> 0:22:23.270 narcissistic behavior, but because he's been there for so long 0:22:23.270 --> 0:22:25.350 and established at that church for so long, it's kind 0:22:25.350 --> 0:22:28.460 of difficult to help a pastor understand that he should 0:22:28.460 --> 0:22:31.780 change his ways about the way he's preaching sermons, or 0:22:31.780 --> 0:22:34.859 more about him than Christ. Um, what can we do 0:22:34.859 --> 0:22:37.900 to help the church understand that this can be a 0:22:37.900 --> 0:22:40.220 severe problem in narcissistic? 0:22:40.780 --> 0:22:44.219 Yes, it can be. And it is a big problem. 0:22:44.220 --> 0:22:48.660 We are seeing a lot of narcissism in pastors and 0:22:48.660 --> 0:22:54.899 worship leaders and people in positions of authority and at churches. 0:22:54.900 --> 0:22:58.340 And so, um, I'm not a pastor. I did not 0:22:58.340 --> 0:23:01.700 go to seminary. Um, but I would love it if 0:23:01.700 --> 0:23:06.899 seminary would teach, uh, church leadership and teach churches how 0:23:06.900 --> 0:23:11.180 to set up organizational systems so that there's checks and balances. 0:23:11.180 --> 0:23:16.859 So one person doesn't have all the decision making power. So, um, 0:23:17.980 --> 0:23:20.580 what do you do if there's a pastor who is 0:23:20.580 --> 0:23:24.700 sitting in some way? Churches need a system. They need 0:23:24.700 --> 0:23:29.699 some kind of organizational organizational structure so they can utilize 0:23:29.700 --> 0:23:34.220 that that beautiful process. Scripture in Matthew 1815 through 17 0:23:34.260 --> 0:23:36.100 that says, if your brother sins against you, go and 0:23:36.100 --> 0:23:37.419 work it out between the two of you. If they 0:23:37.420 --> 0:23:40.380 will not listen, then you bring the witnesses. They still 0:23:40.380 --> 0:23:42.619 won't listen. Then you bring it to the church or 0:23:42.859 --> 0:23:46.420 the leadership board and they still won't listen. Then you 0:23:46.420 --> 0:23:48.180 treat them like a pagan or a tax collector, which 0:23:48.180 --> 0:23:51.460 means you part ways. Um, so I would love, I 0:23:51.500 --> 0:23:54.820 would encourage all churches to set up systems of checks 0:23:54.820 --> 0:23:58.540 and balances where one person doesn't have all that decision 0:23:58.580 --> 0:24:02.220 making power. So find find some people within the church, 0:24:02.820 --> 0:24:05.660 get a board going. There's we've just got to take 0:24:06.060 --> 0:24:08.580 the power out of one person's hands. I would say 0:24:08.580 --> 0:24:09.740 that's the biggest thing. 0:24:10.500 --> 0:24:12.300 George, I bet you took a lot away from that. 0:24:12.300 --> 0:24:14.260 Thank you for the question. I think you were probably 0:24:14.260 --> 0:24:16.580 speaking for more people than we'd like to believe. So 0:24:16.580 --> 0:24:19.899 thank you for the question. 877 Because George's line is 0:24:19.900 --> 0:24:25.420 now open. (877) 548-3675 Laurel Slade Wagner is with us for 0:24:25.420 --> 0:24:29.380 the entire hour. One topic narcissism in all its iterations 0:24:29.380 --> 0:24:31.420 and the way in which it intersects with our lives. 0:24:31.420 --> 0:24:34.020 So this is your opportunity to get a great answer 0:24:34.020 --> 0:24:36.340 from a woman who really knows this. Don't forget. Also 0:24:36.340 --> 0:24:38.020 have a direct link to her website if you want 0:24:38.060 --> 0:24:40.740 to talk to her privately and professionally and go much 0:24:40.740 --> 0:24:43.220 deeper with your personal situation. You can do that through 0:24:43.220 --> 0:24:46.300 the website which sits right there on our information page. 0:24:46.300 --> 0:24:48.380 This is in the market with Janet Parshall. More with 0:24:48.380 --> 0:24:59.540 Laurel right after this. How do you keep your finger 0:24:59.540 --> 0:25:01.740 on the pulse of America while listening to the heartbeat 0:25:01.780 --> 0:25:03.980 of God's Word? On in the market, we look for 0:25:03.980 --> 0:25:07.420 God's perspective on current events, become a partial partner today, 0:25:07.420 --> 0:25:09.940 and keep this Christ centered program on the air. As 0:25:09.940 --> 0:25:13.100 a benefit, you'll receive exclusive resources every week prepared just 0:25:13.100 --> 0:25:15.780 for you. You'll get behind the scenes Intel from my 0:25:15.820 --> 0:25:20.020 email to yours. Call 877 Janet, 58, or go online 0:25:20.020 --> 0:25:25.100 to in the market with Janet Dot org. If you're 0:25:25.100 --> 0:25:27.780 just joining us, the warmest of welcomes and because of 0:25:27.780 --> 0:25:29.859 the modern technology, you didn't miss a thing. Just go 0:25:29.859 --> 0:25:32.820 to your favorite podcast site and download in the market 0:25:32.820 --> 0:25:36.100 with Janet Parshall. Pick today's date and our conversation with 0:25:36.100 --> 0:25:39.900 Laurel Slade Wagner and our topic, narcissism. Laurel, of course, 0:25:39.940 --> 0:25:43.619 is a board certified Professional Christian counselor, a licensed marriage 0:25:43.619 --> 0:25:48.260 and health family health counselor, a licensed marriage and family therapist. 0:25:48.300 --> 0:25:51.140 Been in Florida close to two decades. Private practice. I've 0:25:51.140 --> 0:25:53.700 got a link to her website on the information page. 0:25:53.820 --> 0:25:55.979 If you want to talk privately and professionally with her, 0:25:55.980 --> 0:25:57.419 you can set that up a couple of books I 0:25:57.420 --> 0:26:00.180 want to point out. Don't let their crazy make you crazy. 0:26:00.220 --> 0:26:02.459 How to stay sane and strong. When the narcissists in 0:26:02.460 --> 0:26:05.179 your life is trying to control or abuse you. Linked 0:26:05.180 --> 0:26:07.300 on my info page. And also don't let their crazy 0:26:07.300 --> 0:26:10.020 make your kids crazy. How to shield your children from 0:26:10.020 --> 0:26:13.419 their narcissistic parents control and manipulation. And don't forget, she 0:26:13.420 --> 0:26:16.340 also has a great free podcast called help! I have 0:26:16.340 --> 0:26:25.140 a narcissist in my life. 483675. That is our number. (877) 548-3675. 0:26:25.180 --> 0:26:27.540 And as is always the case. Which is why Laurel 0:26:27.540 --> 0:26:29.620 and I are going to keep going. Every line is lit. 0:26:29.619 --> 0:26:31.580 So be patient when you hear me say goodbye. The 0:26:31.580 --> 0:26:34.540 line opens up, but calling quick because they're being replaced immediately. 0:26:34.740 --> 0:26:37.380 You have been so patient in Illinois, Rob. I appreciate 0:26:37.380 --> 0:26:39.419 it more than you can know. Welcome to the conversation 0:26:39.420 --> 0:26:40.620 in your question, please. 0:26:41.140 --> 0:26:43.020 Well thank you. It's actually Bob, but. 0:26:43.060 --> 0:26:43.260 Oh. 0:26:43.260 --> 0:26:43.820 Bob, forgive. 0:26:43.820 --> 0:26:48.139 Me. On the other side of this, I'm actually the narcissist. And, uh, 0:26:48.500 --> 0:26:52.180 after 68 years, I've realized my self-centeredness is more than 0:26:52.180 --> 0:26:55.780 just that and decades of being married. I hear the 0:26:55.780 --> 0:26:57.899 other side. But how do I. How do I change? 0:27:00.500 --> 0:27:05.180 Bob. Oh my goodness, I'm so excited that you called in. So, um, 0:27:05.820 --> 0:27:11.460 I appreciate your humility and and taking ownership. That is definitely. 0:27:11.460 --> 0:27:15.540 Those two qualities are definitely not qualities we see in 0:27:15.540 --> 0:27:20.100 someone who has a personality disorder. Um, but I appreciate 0:27:20.100 --> 0:27:24.820 the fact that you're you're self-reflecting and you're wanting to change. 0:27:24.820 --> 0:27:29.859 And so, um, I would say learn about healthy relationships, 0:27:29.900 --> 0:27:33.899 get into some really good counseling, um, get a band 0:27:33.900 --> 0:27:38.180 of brothers that can walk through this with you. Um, 0:27:38.180 --> 0:27:41.100 a good book to read is I don't know if 0:27:41.140 --> 0:27:44.379 you've heard of Dallas Willard, but he has a fabulous 0:27:44.380 --> 0:27:47.900 book called renovation of the heart. And so that book 0:27:47.900 --> 0:27:52.460 can kind of walk you through what, um, a person of, 0:27:52.619 --> 0:27:55.620 of godly character is. So that's a really good read. 0:27:55.619 --> 0:27:59.179 It's a hard read, but it's a it's well worth it. Um, 0:27:59.180 --> 0:28:04.300 there's all kinds of, of organizations. Um, there's you can 0:28:04.300 --> 0:28:09.420 get into a Bible study at a church, there's organizations, um, 0:28:10.020 --> 0:28:13.460 like Trace Diaz or Walk to Emmaus, where you can 0:28:13.460 --> 0:28:18.300 develop a really, really solid band of brothers to do 0:28:18.300 --> 0:28:21.980 life with and to hold each other accountable for these 0:28:21.980 --> 0:28:25.540 changes that you want to make. I encourage you, um, 0:28:25.660 --> 0:28:30.060 if to do moral inventories and to people you, uh, 0:28:30.060 --> 0:28:32.220 God brings to mind that you hurt. Write them letters 0:28:32.220 --> 0:28:37.419 of apology. Take ownership. Um, make amends. Show them how 0:28:37.540 --> 0:28:42.100 you've changed. Be non-defensive. Uh, moving forward. Show them how 0:28:42.100 --> 0:28:47.060 they can trust you again. Be patient if that takes 0:28:47.060 --> 0:28:49.860 a really long time. Um, just all of these different 0:28:49.860 --> 0:28:54.180 things to to keep this, uh, to build fruit in 0:28:54.180 --> 0:28:56.660 keeping with repentance like the Bible talks about. 0:28:58.140 --> 0:29:00.180 I hope that's an encouragement. Bob, thank you for being 0:29:00.180 --> 0:29:02.620 a part of this conversation. How precious to hear a 0:29:02.620 --> 0:29:05.020 man who really wants to change. And I'm glad you 0:29:05.020 --> 0:29:07.300 gave him some hope, Laurel, because you don't have to 0:29:07.340 --> 0:29:15.820 stay where you are. And that's a good encouragement. 87754836758775483675. 0:29:15.860 --> 0:29:18.180 Cathy in Pennsylvania, welcome. And your question, please. 0:29:19.620 --> 0:29:22.620 Hi, Janet. My, um, so first of all, thank you 0:29:22.620 --> 0:29:26.500 for taking my call. And I'm excited about, um, talking 0:29:26.500 --> 0:29:29.900 with Laurel and I. My my question is, I have 0:29:29.900 --> 0:29:34.180 a friend. Um, it's a friend and family, um, whom 0:29:34.180 --> 0:29:37.180 we love, who is affected and abused daily by a 0:29:37.180 --> 0:29:43.620 narcissistic co-leader at work. And we listen, we hurt, um, 0:29:44.540 --> 0:29:47.340 but we've been hearing the same stories of abuse for years. 0:29:47.340 --> 0:29:52.060 We want to stand with the person, but we, our 0:29:52.060 --> 0:29:55.500 friend and family. But we don't know how to anymore. 0:29:55.900 --> 0:30:01.700 Even to, um, the point of this person has affected 0:30:01.740 --> 0:30:06.620 our friend and family, so much so that they're contemplating suicide. 0:30:07.060 --> 0:30:07.460 Um. 0:30:08.700 --> 0:30:13.180 Oh my goodness. So she she needs some help. Your 0:30:13.180 --> 0:30:17.380 your friend definitely needs some help. She's stuck. She doesn't 0:30:17.380 --> 0:30:20.780 know what to do. So she's at that place of, uh, 0:30:20.900 --> 0:30:23.620 being trauma bonded. What they call it. They call it 0:30:23.660 --> 0:30:27.660 trauma bonded because she's. She's just in this place where 0:30:28.100 --> 0:30:32.340 she's too afraid to make a change. She at some 0:30:32.340 --> 0:30:36.180 level wants that affirmation of that narcissistic person. She's been 0:30:36.180 --> 0:30:40.180 emotionally conditioned, um, that she will not be okay without 0:30:40.180 --> 0:30:44.060 that person. And so she. This happens quite a bit. 0:30:44.060 --> 0:30:47.220 She becomes paralyzed, and then all the people around her 0:30:47.260 --> 0:30:50.060 love her, and they can't stand to see her continue 0:30:50.300 --> 0:30:55.459 to allow herself to get abused. So, um, you've been 0:30:55.740 --> 0:31:00.660 very patient. You've been resourcing of her, you've been giving 0:31:00.660 --> 0:31:04.380 her love. So she needs to understand that there are 0:31:04.420 --> 0:31:07.060 healthy relationships out there. She needs to learn about what 0:31:07.060 --> 0:31:11.180 those are. She needs to understand that she's precious and 0:31:11.180 --> 0:31:14.260 she was not created to be treated this way, and 0:31:14.260 --> 0:31:17.380 she needs to understand that she's been emotionally conditioned to 0:31:17.940 --> 0:31:22.140 stay in this position of paralysis, and so that it's 0:31:22.140 --> 0:31:25.860 very common. And she needs help. And this is where 0:31:26.620 --> 0:31:29.500 this tough love is going to be really hard to do. 0:31:29.500 --> 0:31:33.180 But you love her too much to see her, um, 0:31:33.220 --> 0:31:37.620 stay stuck. Of course. If, if, if she is suicidal, um, 0:31:37.620 --> 0:31:41.740 you could do a well check. So if she says 0:31:41.740 --> 0:31:44.780 that she's suicidal or she says she doesn't want to 0:31:44.780 --> 0:31:48.100 live anymore, you take her at her word and you have, 0:31:48.340 --> 0:31:51.180 you can call the emergency police and say, I just 0:31:51.180 --> 0:31:54.780 want you to check on this person. She's articulated that, 0:31:54.820 --> 0:31:57.180 you know, she might be suicidal, and they'll go do 0:31:57.460 --> 0:31:59.180 a well check and just let her know that you 0:31:59.180 --> 0:32:01.860 love her too much, that if you hear those words 0:32:01.860 --> 0:32:05.900 from her, you're going to make sure that she gets 0:32:05.900 --> 0:32:09.300 some help. Um, every time that she says that. So 0:32:09.540 --> 0:32:12.020 sometimes people say that just out of exasperation. They're Exasperation. 0:32:12.020 --> 0:32:14.860 They're not truly suicidal. They're just they just can't see 0:32:14.860 --> 0:32:18.860 a way out of their pain. Um, so that's suicide, 0:32:18.860 --> 0:32:21.940 what they call suicidal ideation. She just doesn't want to 0:32:21.940 --> 0:32:24.580 be in her pain anymore. She doesn't necessarily want to 0:32:24.580 --> 0:32:27.500 kill herself, but she she just doesn't see a way 0:32:27.500 --> 0:32:30.620 out of her pain. Whatever it is, she needs to 0:32:30.660 --> 0:32:32.860 know that you're serious about getting her the help that 0:32:32.860 --> 0:32:36.860 she needs. And then if she won't help herself. That's 0:32:36.860 --> 0:32:38.900 where you say we. We love you too much. There's 0:32:38.900 --> 0:32:42.180 so many resources we've given you. There's Celebrate Recovery, where 0:32:42.180 --> 0:32:45.700 you can, um, be with other sisters in Christ who 0:32:45.700 --> 0:32:48.580 are going through what you're going through. Here's all these 0:32:48.580 --> 0:32:52.500 readings about healthy relationships. Here's all these readings about narcissism. 0:32:52.500 --> 0:32:56.260 Here's all these readings about abuse and counselors names. If 0:32:56.300 --> 0:32:58.459 you have resources or you've done everything, and that's where 0:32:58.460 --> 0:33:01.780 you're going to have to step back and say, we 0:33:01.820 --> 0:33:04.820 this is just too painful for us to watch you, 0:33:04.860 --> 0:33:08.460 not help yourself. We love you too much. Um, and 0:33:08.460 --> 0:33:11.700 that might encourage her. Like, wow, okay, they love me 0:33:11.700 --> 0:33:14.500 so much that they're they're willing to take a step 0:33:14.500 --> 0:33:18.020 back just so that I would be okay. And, um, 0:33:18.300 --> 0:33:21.060 and then pray and pray and pray that she gets connected. 0:33:21.980 --> 0:33:22.340 Mm. 0:33:22.980 --> 0:33:25.540 Cathy, thank you so much. What a good friend your 0:33:25.540 --> 0:33:28.140 friend has in you. Thank you for being here. Pat 0:33:28.140 --> 0:33:30.180 in Vermont. Welcome. Your question, please. 0:33:30.780 --> 0:33:33.780 Thank you. Um. God has lifted me out of a 0:33:33.780 --> 0:33:39.580 marriage to a covert narcissist. And I am also autistic. 0:33:39.700 --> 0:33:43.260 So I was wondering in your research if you found 0:33:43.260 --> 0:33:50.940 anything linked between neurodiverse neurodivergent people and and a more 0:33:51.620 --> 0:33:56.100 being more vulnerable to narcissistic abuse? And if so, why? 0:33:58.700 --> 0:34:02.340 Well, I would say that's not my area of expertise 0:34:02.380 --> 0:34:07.940 of working with autism, but I would say that, um, whatever, 0:34:08.660 --> 0:34:12.780 Whatever we struggle with, we have to look at what 0:34:12.820 --> 0:34:18.660 vulnerability that creates for us. So, um, whatever symptoms that 0:34:18.660 --> 0:34:24.420 you have within that disorder, what what is it specifically 0:34:24.660 --> 0:34:27.620 that would prohibit you from being like I was talking 0:34:27.620 --> 0:34:32.380 about before, innocent as a dove and shrewd as a serpent. So, um, 0:34:32.540 --> 0:34:36.260 and figuring out how you can neutralize all of that. 0:34:36.260 --> 0:34:40.420 So if it's something to do with a lack of 0:34:40.700 --> 0:34:45.580 affect and, and not really having those intense feelings when 0:34:45.580 --> 0:34:50.739 someone is, um, very abrasive toward you or shows you 0:34:50.739 --> 0:34:52.940 a lack of empathy. This is just an example. I 0:34:52.940 --> 0:34:55.900 don't know what you're struggling with, but let's say you're 0:34:55.900 --> 0:34:58.819 struggling with the lack of affect, and and you don't 0:34:58.820 --> 0:35:01.819 really feel that abrasion or you don't really feel that 0:35:01.820 --> 0:35:04.339 offense when someone offends you, then you have to do 0:35:04.340 --> 0:35:07.180 a lot of studying on a lack of empathy and 0:35:07.180 --> 0:35:10.420 how that presents and what that does to people. And 0:35:10.420 --> 0:35:14.180 so you start to learn from the outside in whatever 0:35:14.180 --> 0:35:17.340 you're struggling with that you don't have from the inside out, 0:35:17.380 --> 0:35:20.260 and you work with a professional counselor that can help 0:35:20.260 --> 0:35:24.500 you get through all of that so that you do 0:35:24.500 --> 0:35:28.420 not knit yourself together again with another narcissist. I praise 0:35:28.420 --> 0:35:30.819 the Lord like I did with the other caller, that 0:35:30.820 --> 0:35:34.779 God set you free from that abusive relationship with that 0:35:34.780 --> 0:35:38.859 covert narcissist. And like I was saying, you are not alone. 0:35:38.860 --> 0:35:43.500 That covert narcissism, it is so toxic and people suffer 0:35:43.700 --> 0:35:47.380 so much and for so long behind closed doors, especially 0:35:47.580 --> 0:35:48.739 within the church. 0:35:49.940 --> 0:35:51.980 Thank you, Pat, so very much for being with us, 0:35:51.980 --> 0:35:56.180 I appreciate it. (877) 548-3675. We're going to take a break. 0:35:56.180 --> 0:35:58.819 Come right back. Going right to the phones. As I 0:35:58.860 --> 0:36:00.779 come up to this break, don't forget to check out 0:36:00.780 --> 0:36:03.940 all the information that Laurel has for your perusal and 0:36:03.940 --> 0:36:06.820 for your comfort and healing right there on our website 0:36:06.820 --> 0:36:10.739 in the market with Janet Parshall. There's a description of 0:36:10.739 --> 0:36:13.060 both of the hours we do every day. Underneath that 0:36:13.060 --> 0:36:16.819 description is a red box. It says program details and audio. 0:36:16.820 --> 0:36:19.299 Click that on. It'll take it over to the information page. 0:36:19.300 --> 0:36:21.540 There's a longer bio for Laurel, a link to her 0:36:21.540 --> 0:36:24.219 website again for your use, so that if you want 0:36:24.219 --> 0:36:26.219 to talk to her privately and professionally, you can set 0:36:26.219 --> 0:36:28.540 it up right through that website. On the right hand side, 0:36:28.540 --> 0:36:30.980 there's the two books we've been talking about. And in addition, 0:36:31.020 --> 0:36:34.379 don't forget she has a podcast entitled simply help! I 0:36:34.380 --> 0:36:36.419 have a narcissist in my life. You can find that 0:36:36.420 --> 0:36:38.700 wherever you go to find your podcast. So let me 0:36:38.700 --> 0:36:40.420 take this break, come right back to the phones and 0:36:40.420 --> 0:36:52.740 we'll get more answers from Laurel right after this. Certified 0:36:52.739 --> 0:36:55.979 Christian Counselor Laurel Slade Wagner is our guest as she 0:36:55.980 --> 0:36:59.500 is monthly. As we take on this topic of narcissism. 0:36:59.739 --> 0:37:02.260 And if you could see my screen, every single line 0:37:02.260 --> 0:37:05.020 is lit, which says that I think we're tapping into 0:37:05.060 --> 0:37:07.859 some pain. Pain that's not often articulated. You don't know 0:37:07.860 --> 0:37:09.299 where to go to get answers. And boy, what a 0:37:09.300 --> 0:37:12.660 safe place. If you've got a wonderful, compassionate, tender Christian 0:37:12.660 --> 0:37:15.379 counselor in Laurel and she does a marvelous job of 0:37:15.380 --> 0:37:19.220 not only offering resources, but gentle counsel as well, always, 0:37:19.219 --> 0:37:22.060 always bathes in Scripture. Connie, thank you so much for 0:37:22.060 --> 0:37:24.340 your patience in California. Your question please. 0:37:25.420 --> 0:37:29.260 Well, thank you so much for taking my call. I 0:37:29.300 --> 0:37:34.420 need to know how to reestablish a relationship with my 0:37:34.420 --> 0:37:40.620 grown daughter. Um, I am a victim of a narcissistic 0:37:40.660 --> 0:37:45.820 ex-husband for 25 years. And in the breakup, she decided 0:37:45.820 --> 0:37:48.660 to live with her father, and she has picked up 0:37:48.660 --> 0:37:52.459 on his ways. And just recently, I decided that I 0:37:52.460 --> 0:37:55.939 had to let her know my boundary limits. That she 0:37:55.940 --> 0:37:59.740 cannot disrespect me down to my core like she did 0:37:59.780 --> 0:38:04.210 by insulting what I believe in in Jesus Christ and 0:38:04.210 --> 0:38:06.890 letting her know that I am her mother and not 0:38:06.890 --> 0:38:08.770 somebody that she can mistreat. 0:38:11.130 --> 0:38:15.810 I'm so glad to hear you say that. You, you know, 0:38:16.290 --> 0:38:19.370 at a heart level that you are precious and you 0:38:19.370 --> 0:38:23.569 are not created to be treated with that disrespect. Even 0:38:23.930 --> 0:38:26.330 if it's your own child who you love so much. 0:38:26.370 --> 0:38:30.450 And and I see this going on so much that, um, 0:38:31.010 --> 0:38:36.489 where the adult children are treating their non narcissistic parent 0:38:36.489 --> 0:38:40.529 the same way that they're that narcissist treated that non 0:38:40.530 --> 0:38:46.090 narcissistic parent. And so this is not something where you're alone. 0:38:46.090 --> 0:38:49.569 There are many, many people that are struggling in the 0:38:49.570 --> 0:38:52.730 same way that you are. And so I'm so glad 0:38:52.730 --> 0:38:55.130 to hear you say that. You set the boundaries and 0:38:55.730 --> 0:38:58.210 you have to grieve. You have to grieve the loss 0:38:58.210 --> 0:39:01.969 of who you want her to be. You have to 0:39:01.969 --> 0:39:06.370 grieve the loss of of who she is. That's, um, 0:39:06.489 --> 0:39:09.089 not what God wants her to be. And so you 0:39:09.090 --> 0:39:11.730 have to allow yourself to do all this grieving and 0:39:11.730 --> 0:39:14.690 get to that place of acceptance. Like, okay, this is 0:39:14.890 --> 0:39:18.170 who my daughter is at this point. Um, I raised 0:39:18.170 --> 0:39:19.650 her up in the way in the Lord, and I'm 0:39:19.690 --> 0:39:22.330 going to keep praying for her. And then you can 0:39:22.330 --> 0:39:25.890 set up some prayerfully. Just pray through set up some 0:39:25.890 --> 0:39:31.410 structure of, okay, I'm going to reach out, um, every 0:39:31.410 --> 0:39:34.890 so often in this safe way to see if things 0:39:34.890 --> 0:39:37.810 are different and to see if she's willing to work 0:39:37.810 --> 0:39:42.770 on things. So for now, since you gave her that information, 0:39:42.770 --> 0:39:45.170 that you're not going to let her treat her with disrespect, 0:39:45.170 --> 0:39:48.450 then just prayerfully set up a structure. So, okay, how 0:39:48.450 --> 0:39:52.090 am I going to reach out? Maybe send her a text, um, 0:39:52.210 --> 0:39:56.250 send her something of interest that she likes if she 0:39:56.930 --> 0:40:01.930 answers back with any kind of disrespect or condemnation. Or 0:40:01.930 --> 0:40:05.090 if she doesn't answer you, then you say, okay, Lord, 0:40:05.090 --> 0:40:09.089 thank you for revealing her character and where she is 0:40:09.090 --> 0:40:12.330 currently and I'm just going to connect through her, connect 0:40:12.330 --> 0:40:15.650 with her through prayer for now. And then you try again. 0:40:15.690 --> 0:40:18.530 You know, maybe a month from now or three months, um, 0:40:18.690 --> 0:40:21.529 you can also let her know what you're doing. You 0:40:21.530 --> 0:40:24.210 can say, I'm going to reach out blank. I'm going 0:40:24.250 --> 0:40:26.850 to reach out, uh, once a month, or I'm going 0:40:26.890 --> 0:40:31.170 to reach out once a quarter. Whatever you decide on 0:40:31.170 --> 0:40:35.530 and you you are revealing your character to her that way, 0:40:35.890 --> 0:40:38.930 whether she likes it or not. So if you reveal, hey, 0:40:38.930 --> 0:40:41.210 I'm going to do this, and then you're a woman 0:40:41.250 --> 0:40:43.810 of follow through and you follow through on what you 0:40:43.850 --> 0:40:47.529 told her you're going to do. Your character of integrity 0:40:47.530 --> 0:40:51.770 is going to shine through. And so it's going to 0:40:51.810 --> 0:40:54.930 impact her whether she acknowledges it to you or not 0:40:54.930 --> 0:41:00.370 right now. And so that's that's what all you can do. Um, 0:41:00.489 --> 0:41:05.650 from that standpoint, don't get into any divisive arguments with her. Don't, um, 0:41:05.690 --> 0:41:09.730 discredit her father. She is under his spell, and for 0:41:09.730 --> 0:41:13.690 whatever reason, she doesn't want to separate from him. She 0:41:13.690 --> 0:41:18.689 doesn't see his toxic traits. And so, um, you just 0:41:18.690 --> 0:41:22.770 pray that she does that. God reveals his true core 0:41:22.810 --> 0:41:26.090 identity to her, and she recognizes it. And at the 0:41:26.090 --> 0:41:28.290 same time, you're building that trust and you're revealing your 0:41:28.290 --> 0:41:31.850 own character. And I just I believe so wholeheartedly that 0:41:32.290 --> 0:41:38.050 we are all hardwired to desire what God has to give. 0:41:38.090 --> 0:41:42.370 And so just being someone who exudes the the fruit 0:41:42.370 --> 0:41:45.490 of the spirit and, and Christ's love, and that Christ's 0:41:45.489 --> 0:41:50.730 love sometimes is full of boundaries, um, and consistency. So I, 0:41:51.290 --> 0:41:55.570 I think she'll recognize Christ whether she wants to accept 0:41:55.570 --> 0:41:57.930 it right now or not. But I think those are 0:41:57.930 --> 0:41:59.610 the most powerful things you can do. 0:42:00.530 --> 0:42:02.730 Connie. Thank you. I hope you're encouraged by the answer, 0:42:02.730 --> 0:42:05.049 I truly do. Sarah in Missouri, I want to get 0:42:05.050 --> 0:42:07.770 your call in before the hour wraps up. Your question, please. 0:42:09.450 --> 0:42:13.410 So my question is, um, after 30 years, I know 0:42:13.410 --> 0:42:15.290 it's time to leave, and I'm trying to come up 0:42:15.290 --> 0:42:19.169 with a plan, and, um, I'm just struggling with. How 0:42:19.170 --> 0:42:24.570 do you leave without feeling guilty and feeling sorry for them? 0:42:26.690 --> 0:42:28.689 Sarah, that's a great question. And that's what I work 0:42:28.690 --> 0:42:30.930 on with the with a lot of my clients in 0:42:30.969 --> 0:42:34.089 the phone advice sessions because you invite, like I was 0:42:34.090 --> 0:42:36.529 saying a little bit earlier, you want to invite him 0:42:36.530 --> 0:42:41.170 into a plan of change. Um, that Joshua 2415 plan 0:42:41.210 --> 0:42:43.609 of change that I do have some of this information 0:42:43.650 --> 0:42:46.290 in the first book. Um, don't let the crazy make 0:42:46.290 --> 0:42:50.170 you crazy and the assertiveness chapter, but you invite them 0:42:50.170 --> 0:42:53.210 into a plan of change. Um, I say do it 0:42:53.210 --> 0:42:58.170 in writing. Um, you outline your needs in that plan 0:42:58.170 --> 0:43:00.850 of change, you invite him into this and then give 0:43:00.850 --> 0:43:04.010 him his free will. And if he doesn't, then that's 0:43:04.010 --> 0:43:07.290 where you start using that redemptive tool of separation. And 0:43:07.489 --> 0:43:11.129 it's not a punishment. The redemptive tool of separation is 0:43:11.130 --> 0:43:13.970 to give him time and space so that he can 0:43:14.010 --> 0:43:17.450 think about what you were saying and what your needs are, 0:43:17.450 --> 0:43:19.810 and how to respond to those in a loving way. 0:43:19.850 --> 0:43:25.370 So utilizing that redemptive tool of separation is all biblical. 0:43:25.370 --> 0:43:31.370 It's all based on Matthew 1815 through 17 and in. 0:43:31.410 --> 0:43:34.890 You're truly inviting him into a different way of life, 0:43:34.890 --> 0:43:38.090 but you're not going to sit and let him continue 0:43:38.250 --> 0:43:41.170 to abuse you any longer, because he's not really moving 0:43:41.210 --> 0:43:44.370 toward God that way. He's not moving toward becoming who 0:43:44.370 --> 0:43:48.170 God wants him to become, and nor can you, because 0:43:48.170 --> 0:43:51.290 you're constantly having to pick yourself up from all those 0:43:51.290 --> 0:43:55.290 abusive interactions and and you just can't focus on your 0:43:55.290 --> 0:43:58.529 relationship with the God or the healthy other people in 0:43:58.530 --> 0:44:01.170 your life if you're continuing to let him abuse you. 0:44:01.170 --> 0:44:03.290 So I hope that helps, Sarah. 0:44:03.530 --> 0:44:05.450 I hope so too. Sarah, thank you so much for 0:44:05.450 --> 0:44:07.930 being with us. To the rest of you, should the 0:44:07.930 --> 0:44:11.770 Lord allow first, last and always. And if Laurel is able, 0:44:11.770 --> 0:44:14.370 we'll do this again next month. So I'm so sorry 0:44:14.370 --> 0:44:16.650 we didn't get to your call. Please know our hearts. 0:44:16.650 --> 0:44:18.810 We are going to have these conversations as long as 0:44:18.810 --> 0:44:22.090 you keep calling in, particularly at this volume level, because 0:44:22.290 --> 0:44:24.290 it's an opportunity for you to let your voice be heard, 0:44:24.290 --> 0:44:26.930 to know that you are precious. You haven't been forgotten 0:44:26.930 --> 0:44:30.049 that God has a plan for your welfare. And so 0:44:30.050 --> 0:44:32.690 I really appreciate your calling in and love the way 0:44:32.690 --> 0:44:36.530 that with tenderness, Laurel Slade Wagner just keeps counseling you 0:44:36.530 --> 0:44:38.609 as you walk through this. You are not alone. So 0:44:38.650 --> 0:44:40.529 in the meantime, read her books. They're both there on 0:44:40.530 --> 0:44:42.570 the website if you want to talk to her privately 0:44:42.570 --> 0:44:45.010 and professionally, work that through the link to her direct 0:44:45.010 --> 0:44:48.810 website for her practice in Florida as well. I thank you, Laurel, 0:44:48.810 --> 0:44:50.850 so much from the bottom of my heart. And you, friends, 0:44:50.850 --> 0:44:52.450 we'll see you next time on In the Market with 0:44:52.450 --> 0:44:53.330 Janet Parshall.