1 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:10,840 S1: The ache of a painful past. The search for an 2 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,880 S1: ancient artifact. The hiss of an impending threat. This is 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,760 S1: the backdrop for a work of biblical fiction based on 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,600 S1: the life of Esther. Coming up on the land and 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,520 S1: the book, award winning author Tessa Afshar joins us to 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,880 S1: share perspectives on Esther we might well have overlooked. After all, 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,280 S1: she grew up in the land where the story unfolds. Plus, 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,640 S1: news headlines from the Middle East and a whole lot 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,840 S1: more on the land. And the book. Welcome. Our host 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,720 S1: is Doctor Charlie Dyer. I'm John Gager, and did you 11 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,960 S1: know that most Jewish people have never heard the gospel? 12 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,000 S1: Each week we talk about Israel and the Jewish people, 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,280 S1: and it's important to remember that they, like everyone else, 14 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,239 S1: need to hear the good news. Right, Charlie? 15 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,680 S2: That's absolutely right, John. That's why life in Messiah, you know, 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,040 S2: a ministry that's been in existence for over 135 years 17 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,030 S2: is devoted to sharing the gospel with Jewish people around 18 00:01:01,030 --> 00:01:04,470 S2: the world, and now they're offering a gift to moody listeners. 19 00:01:04,510 --> 00:01:08,590 S2: This free e-book, Reaching Jewish People for Messiah, highlights the 20 00:01:08,590 --> 00:01:11,509 S2: need for the gospel among the Jewish people. It will 21 00:01:11,510 --> 00:01:13,990 S2: equip you with practical ways to share the good News 22 00:01:13,990 --> 00:01:18,510 S2: with them. Now, to receive this free e-book, visit npr.org 23 00:01:18,630 --> 00:01:21,590 S2: and click on the Moody Radio logo. Sign up today 24 00:01:21,590 --> 00:01:24,509 S2: to get your copy. That's life in Messiah. 25 00:01:26,190 --> 00:01:28,430 S1: Well, Charlie, you are getting ready to fly off to 26 00:01:28,470 --> 00:01:31,149 S1: Israel and it's going to be a great experience, I'm sure. 27 00:01:31,150 --> 00:01:34,830 S1: But what are your expectations and maybe even some concerns 28 00:01:35,110 --> 00:01:38,509 S1: as you prepare to explore how prepared the country is 29 00:01:38,510 --> 00:01:42,910 S1: to welcome tourists following its two year war with Hamas, Hezbollah, 30 00:01:42,950 --> 00:01:47,110 S1: the Houthis and Iran. What's, uh, what's going through your mind? 31 00:01:47,510 --> 00:01:49,550 S2: Well, when it comes to Israel, John, you know, I'm 32 00:01:49,550 --> 00:01:52,310 S2: an optimist. I've been there during wars. I've been there 33 00:01:52,310 --> 00:01:56,750 S2: just after wars. I was there just following the Covid pandemic. So, uh, yeah, 34 00:01:56,790 --> 00:01:59,700 S2: I think I have fairly realistic expectations. Now, I don't 35 00:01:59,740 --> 00:02:02,900 S2: expect everything to be running smoothly. For example, in just 36 00:02:02,900 --> 00:02:06,300 S2: the last two weeks, we've had to rearrange our schedule, 37 00:02:06,300 --> 00:02:08,980 S2: and a day or so ago, I got some more 38 00:02:08,980 --> 00:02:12,300 S2: changes that we'll have to incorporate. Several key sites that 39 00:02:12,300 --> 00:02:16,579 S2: tourists visit just arbitrarily change their hours of operation closing 40 00:02:16,580 --> 00:02:20,020 S2: much earlier than normal. I suspect it's because they're still 41 00:02:20,020 --> 00:02:22,820 S2: not seeing that many tourists. Now that'll change over the 42 00:02:22,820 --> 00:02:25,860 S2: coming months, but for now, it means rearranging all the 43 00:02:25,860 --> 00:02:29,460 S2: moving parts to get everything to fit in. Thankfully, most 44 00:02:29,460 --> 00:02:32,380 S2: sites have remained open. Even those that were in areas 45 00:02:32,380 --> 00:02:35,419 S2: close to the recent conflict are now available. Now, from 46 00:02:35,419 --> 00:02:38,700 S2: what I hear, it sounds like many sites are still uncrowded. 47 00:02:39,020 --> 00:02:41,179 S2: I'm sure that's going to be changing, but I'll look 48 00:02:41,180 --> 00:02:44,260 S2: forward to hopefully having some of these sites almost to ourselves. 49 00:02:44,740 --> 00:02:48,060 S2: The airlines are also still adjusting their schedules. We had 50 00:02:48,060 --> 00:02:51,260 S2: several individuals make their own travel arrangements, and then discovered 51 00:02:51,260 --> 00:02:54,300 S2: that their flights that they'd booked had been dropped. The 52 00:02:54,300 --> 00:02:56,619 S2: airlines were able to reroute them, but it did cause 53 00:02:56,660 --> 00:03:00,370 S2: a few anxious moments for a few travelers. Now hotels 54 00:03:00,370 --> 00:03:03,770 S2: and lunch spots. They're also still coming back online. Our 55 00:03:03,770 --> 00:03:07,169 S2: favorite lunch spot on the Sea of Galilee closed. And then, thankfully, 56 00:03:07,169 --> 00:03:09,290 S2: just two weeks ago, I received word that it had 57 00:03:09,290 --> 00:03:13,570 S2: finally reopened. On the negative side, I'm gearing myself up 58 00:03:13,570 --> 00:03:16,250 S2: for heavier traffic in Jerusalem. You know, John, when we 59 00:03:16,250 --> 00:03:19,970 S2: were there recording for that last radio special, tourism was 60 00:03:19,970 --> 00:03:23,970 S2: almost nonexistent. But the traffic in and around Jerusalem was 61 00:03:24,010 --> 00:03:27,010 S2: far worse than it had ever been. And now Jerusalem 62 00:03:27,010 --> 00:03:30,650 S2: has begun updating its light rail system, disrupting several major 63 00:03:30,650 --> 00:03:33,330 S2: traffic arteries. I think that's going to impact the amount 64 00:03:33,330 --> 00:03:36,770 S2: of time it'll take to travel between sites there. It 65 00:03:36,770 --> 00:03:38,810 S2: might mean our days in Jerusalem will need to start 66 00:03:38,850 --> 00:03:42,130 S2: a little earlier and go a little longer. I'll definitely 67 00:03:42,130 --> 00:03:44,610 S2: be reminding the group about our ninth beatitude. You know, 68 00:03:44,610 --> 00:03:46,450 S2: the one that's not in the sermon on the Mount. 69 00:03:46,490 --> 00:03:48,730 S2: Blessed are the flexible, for they will not get bent 70 00:03:48,730 --> 00:03:52,730 S2: out of shape. But flexibility and adaptability are the two 71 00:03:52,730 --> 00:03:55,730 S2: characteristics of any successful trip to Israel. And I think 72 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,119 S2: it's going to be even more important this time. One 73 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,280 S2: last point, John. I'm expecting our group to be welcomed 74 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,600 S2: with open arms by Jewish and Arab merchants. They've endured 75 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,080 S2: two years of economic hardship, and both sides are breathing 76 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,640 S2: a sigh of relief at the war's end. They want 77 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,920 S2: life to return to normal. And for those in the 78 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,080 S2: tourism industry, they can't wait to welcome back more tourists. 79 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,120 S2: I've already had texts and videos from shopkeepers and restaurant 80 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,280 S2: owners who heard about our trip, and who want me 81 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,520 S2: to know that they're looking forward to seeing me and 82 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,679 S2: of course, the group traveling with me. 83 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:28,719 S1: Yeah, I bet they are. Well, we'll look forward to 84 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,719 S1: some great stories as you return home and be praying 85 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,400 S1: for you all the way. Well, has the cease fire 86 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,960 S1: with Hamas, though, had an impact on Israel's tense standoff 87 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,560 S1: with Hezbollah and with the Houthis? Do you expect any 88 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,039 S1: disruption to your trip because of these countries? 89 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,480 S2: You know, here's the good news. First, I don't expect 90 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,680 S2: any disruptions. The Houthis have occasionally launched missiles and drones 91 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,840 S2: at a lot down by the Red sea. But we're 92 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,659 S2: not traveling that far south. We get nowhere near that area, 93 00:04:55,940 --> 00:04:59,500 S2: and Hezbollah hasn't been firing any rockets toward Israel. Now, 94 00:04:59,500 --> 00:05:03,060 S2: on the negative side, Hezbollah is still refusing to disarm. 95 00:05:03,220 --> 00:05:06,900 S2: Israel continues putting pressure on them with almost daily airstrikes. 96 00:05:07,140 --> 00:05:10,260 S2: One strike in a Beirut suburb destroyed a warehouse where 97 00:05:10,260 --> 00:05:14,420 S2: Hezbollah was storing missiles and another strike. Israel destroyed hundreds 98 00:05:14,420 --> 00:05:18,700 S2: of Hezbollah construction vehicles, including heavy machinery being used to 99 00:05:18,740 --> 00:05:21,820 S2: try to rebuild and restore their infrastructure. And they've been 100 00:05:21,820 --> 00:05:25,179 S2: hitting some of the major Hezbollah leaders who are still 101 00:05:25,180 --> 00:05:29,260 S2: surfacing as Israel finds them, they're trying to take them out. Now, 102 00:05:29,260 --> 00:05:33,140 S2: the government of Lebanon has condemned Israel's strikes, though they 103 00:05:33,140 --> 00:05:36,620 S2: benefit from a weakened Hezbollah, the Houthis continue to try 104 00:05:36,620 --> 00:05:38,900 S2: to disrupt shipping in the Red sea, and there are 105 00:05:38,900 --> 00:05:41,659 S2: actually some concerns that Iran might be helping them expand 106 00:05:41,660 --> 00:05:45,140 S2: into Sudan in Africa, which in turn extends the range 107 00:05:45,140 --> 00:05:48,540 S2: of their attacks in that region. But ultimately, the puppet 108 00:05:48,540 --> 00:05:51,700 S2: master and all the background is Iran. Israel's conflict with 109 00:05:51,700 --> 00:05:54,849 S2: Hezbollah and the Houthis is just another reminder that the 110 00:05:54,890 --> 00:05:58,570 S2: real long term enemy remains the rulers there in Tehran. 111 00:05:58,770 --> 00:06:01,250 S1: This is the land and the book from Moody Radio. 112 00:06:01,290 --> 00:06:04,929 S1: Our host, Doctor Charlie Dyer, noted Old Testament scholar, widely 113 00:06:04,930 --> 00:06:08,890 S1: respected Israel expert. And I'm John Gager. Well, Charlie, speaking 114 00:06:08,890 --> 00:06:11,849 S1: of Iran, they seem to have dropped off the radar 115 00:06:11,850 --> 00:06:15,650 S1: screen for most news organizations. But as you just reported, 116 00:06:15,650 --> 00:06:19,130 S1: they remain a long term threat in the region. What 117 00:06:19,130 --> 00:06:21,210 S1: is the latest news coming out of Iran? 118 00:06:22,210 --> 00:06:25,089 S2: Iran continues to threaten the region. Some of their threats 119 00:06:25,089 --> 00:06:28,170 S2: are just bluster to mask their own internal weaknesses, but 120 00:06:28,170 --> 00:06:31,450 S2: they still need to be taken seriously. The attacks by 121 00:06:31,450 --> 00:06:35,010 S2: Israel and the US demonstrated Iran's strategic limits. In less 122 00:06:35,010 --> 00:06:38,610 S2: than 24 hours, Israel had complete dominance of the skies 123 00:06:38,610 --> 00:06:42,089 S2: over Iran, and the reimposition of sanctions has brought a 124 00:06:42,089 --> 00:06:45,489 S2: new round of runaway inflation and even charges of internal 125 00:06:45,490 --> 00:06:50,089 S2: corruption within Iran. The people are struggling economically. The governments 126 00:06:50,089 --> 00:06:54,000 S2: responded there by cracking down on all dissent and potential threats. 127 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,360 S2: Thus far this year, they've executed at least 1200 individuals. 128 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,520 S2: In fact, I just saw some recent numbers for this 129 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,760 S2: past month of September, and the pace is accelerating. It's 130 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,039 S2: about two and a half times the number during the 131 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,200 S2: same period last year. And the water crisis in Iran. 132 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,239 S2: As if the inflation isn't bad enough, the water crisis 133 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,160 S2: continues to grow. And while the country is experiencing prolonged drought, 134 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,480 S2: international observers are estimating that 70 to 80% of Iran's 135 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:26,600 S2: current water crisis is due to corruption, mismanagement and unsustainable 136 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,520 S2: agricultural policies. But in spite of those problems, Iran continues 137 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,000 S2: to press on with its military expansion. Sadly, with the 138 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,000 S2: help of both China and it seems like North Korea now, 139 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,680 S2: they built a fleet of mini unmanned B-2 like drones 140 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,280 S2: based on a captured U.S. stealth drone that they had gotten, 141 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,600 S2: which they're using both for spying and can be used 142 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,240 S2: for suicide attacks. In addition, Iran and Russia signed a 143 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,990 S2: two year strategic agreement. One is for Russia to sell Iran, 144 00:07:53,990 --> 00:07:57,230 S2: the next generation of fighter jets to upgrade their air force. 145 00:07:57,390 --> 00:07:59,510 S2: The second one that they signed is to build a 146 00:07:59,510 --> 00:08:02,830 S2: number of small nuclear power plants in Iran. Those plants 147 00:08:02,830 --> 00:08:06,510 S2: will help alleviate their shortage of electricity, but they could 148 00:08:06,510 --> 00:08:10,230 S2: also provide Iran with another opportunity for converting nuclear fuel 149 00:08:10,230 --> 00:08:13,430 S2: into weapons at some point in the future. That remains 150 00:08:13,430 --> 00:08:15,510 S2: a concern, and we still need to keep our eye 151 00:08:15,510 --> 00:08:16,350 S2: on Iran. 152 00:08:16,390 --> 00:08:19,710 S1: Oh for sure. Thank you for those details. Two excavations 153 00:08:19,710 --> 00:08:23,270 S1: in Israel have helped shed new light on ancient technology 154 00:08:23,270 --> 00:08:27,150 S1: in the region. What exactly was uncovered and what impact 155 00:08:27,150 --> 00:08:30,750 S1: do these discoveries have on our understanding of that region, Charlie? 156 00:08:31,230 --> 00:08:35,230 S2: Yeah, I found these both fascinating. The first excavation uncovered 157 00:08:35,230 --> 00:08:38,990 S2: evidence of bronze production in Israel 3000 years ago, at 158 00:08:38,990 --> 00:08:42,190 S2: the very beginning of the Iron Age. Now, most assumed 159 00:08:42,190 --> 00:08:45,709 S2: bronze was produced in other areas and imported into Israel. 160 00:08:46,070 --> 00:08:49,699 S2: But archaeologists uncovered a small settlement in the northern hill country, 161 00:08:49,940 --> 00:08:53,140 S2: where copper and tin were being smelted to produce bronze. 162 00:08:53,460 --> 00:08:56,180 S2: The copper came from mines in what's today both southern 163 00:08:56,179 --> 00:08:59,420 S2: Israel and in that area across the rift in Jordan. 164 00:08:59,860 --> 00:09:02,580 S2: The discovery helps illustrate, I think, God's description of the 165 00:09:02,580 --> 00:09:04,940 S2: land in Deuteronomy eight. He said it was a land 166 00:09:04,940 --> 00:09:07,900 S2: out of whose hills you can dig copper. Well, certainly copper. 167 00:09:07,900 --> 00:09:11,100 S2: One of the essential elements of bronze was being locally 168 00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:14,460 S2: mined and smelted there. The finds, also a reminder of 169 00:09:14,460 --> 00:09:17,179 S2: that transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age 170 00:09:17,179 --> 00:09:20,740 S2: was gradual, with those two overlapping. And that matches first 171 00:09:20,740 --> 00:09:24,500 S2: Samuel 1319, which describes the Philistines trying to maintain a 172 00:09:24,500 --> 00:09:27,300 S2: monopoly on the production of iron to keep Israel from 173 00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:32,060 S2: mastering that technology. The second excavation is the discovery of 174 00:09:32,059 --> 00:09:34,860 S2: three shipwrecks in their cargoes from the Iron Age in 175 00:09:34,860 --> 00:09:37,780 S2: the ancient harbor of Dor, just north of Caesarea. The 176 00:09:37,780 --> 00:09:40,140 S2: ships were found literally one on top of the other. 177 00:09:40,740 --> 00:09:44,340 S2: The shipwrecks suggest the northern Kingdom of Israel was engaged 178 00:09:44,340 --> 00:09:47,700 S2: in maritime commerce. It shows sea trade in the eastern 179 00:09:47,850 --> 00:09:52,010 S2: Mediterranean had evolved from the old major empires of the Hittites, 180 00:09:52,050 --> 00:09:55,090 S2: the Mycenaeans and Egypt to the Sea Peoples, and then 181 00:09:55,090 --> 00:09:57,850 S2: on to more local groups like the Phoenicians and the 182 00:09:57,850 --> 00:10:00,690 S2: northern Kingdom of Israel. And that might help explain the 183 00:10:00,690 --> 00:10:03,449 S2: close affinity we see in the Bible between Israel and 184 00:10:03,450 --> 00:10:08,010 S2: the Phoenicians, including the marriage of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel, 185 00:10:08,010 --> 00:10:09,890 S2: who was the daughter of the King of Tyre. 186 00:10:10,330 --> 00:10:13,650 S1: Fascinating overlook of all that's happening in the Middle East. Charlie, 187 00:10:13,650 --> 00:10:16,890 S1: thank you for that report. Segment three of this broadcast 188 00:10:16,890 --> 00:10:20,650 S1: down the road is always focused on listener Bible questions. 189 00:10:20,650 --> 00:10:22,969 S1: And maybe you've got one or 2 or 3 that 190 00:10:22,970 --> 00:10:25,010 S1: you've been hanging on to for a while. Why not 191 00:10:25,050 --> 00:10:27,570 S1: email that question to us at The Land and the 192 00:10:27,610 --> 00:10:34,650 S1: book at the land and the book at segment two, 193 00:10:34,690 --> 00:10:37,890 S1: though that's next. It's a conversation with best selling author 194 00:10:37,890 --> 00:10:41,050 S1: Tessa Afshar. This is a conversation based on the life 195 00:10:41,050 --> 00:10:44,170 S1: of Esther. Some details you and I might well have overlooked. 196 00:10:44,210 --> 00:10:46,570 S1: I think you'll find it fascinating. It's next on the 197 00:10:46,679 --> 00:11:04,480 S1: land and the book. The ache of a painful past. 198 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,640 S1: The search for an ancient artifact. The hiss of an 199 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,800 S1: impending threat. This is the backdrop for a work of 200 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,440 S1: biblical fiction based on the life of Esther. In a moment. 201 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,479 S1: Award winning author Tessa Afshar joins us to share perspectives 202 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,040 S1: on Esther we might just have overlooked. Hey, welcome to 203 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,840 S1: segment two of The Land and the book. I'm John Gager, 204 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,400 S1: and before we head off to ancient Persia, why, let's 205 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,200 S1: ponder what you could do right where you are to 206 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,840 S1: share the love of Jesus with a muslim friend. Praying 207 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,760 S1: with a muslim friend. Can you do that? Let's talk 208 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,960 S1: about it with Doctor Lina Abujamra, a pediatric E.R. doctor 209 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,400 S1: born and raised in Lebanon. She is the founder of 210 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,880 S1: living with Power Ministries. What do you say to that thought? 211 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,940 S1: Can we pray even in Jesus name with a muslim friend? 212 00:11:47,980 --> 00:11:49,460 S3: I think you can pray with anyone at the end 213 00:11:49,460 --> 00:11:51,260 S3: of the day. The question is are we praying the 214 00:11:51,260 --> 00:11:52,780 S3: same thing or are we praying to the same person? 215 00:11:52,820 --> 00:11:55,300 S3: And I don't think that anybody, unless you're a follower 216 00:11:55,300 --> 00:11:57,060 S3: of Jesus Christ who has come to the father through 217 00:11:57,059 --> 00:12:00,260 S3: Jesus sacrifice on the cross, really is praying prayers that 218 00:12:00,260 --> 00:12:02,900 S3: are heard by God. And so I absolutely think you 219 00:12:02,900 --> 00:12:04,380 S3: can pray with a muslim friend. But, you know, as 220 00:12:04,380 --> 00:12:07,220 S3: you pray loudly for whatever the issues are, remember that 221 00:12:07,220 --> 00:12:09,340 S3: you might not be saying the same thing. And as 222 00:12:09,340 --> 00:12:11,060 S3: long as the thing is you're aware of that, I 223 00:12:11,059 --> 00:12:12,260 S3: don't see a problem with it. 224 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:14,540 S1: Well, what is the proper role of prayer? Any other 225 00:12:14,540 --> 00:12:16,740 S1: thoughts on prayer? As I'm thinking of my Muslim friend? 226 00:12:16,780 --> 00:12:19,780 S3: I think prayer shows people that you love them. Yes, 227 00:12:19,820 --> 00:12:23,340 S3: prayer is vulnerable, and it's telling people that I believe 228 00:12:23,340 --> 00:12:26,060 S3: that I want to help you enough, that I'm willing 229 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:27,660 S3: to open myself up to you in this fashion. 230 00:12:27,700 --> 00:12:30,180 S1: See, when I'm sometimes in the taxis in the city 231 00:12:30,179 --> 00:12:32,620 S1: of Chicago, I will end the ride with my Muslim friend, 232 00:12:32,660 --> 00:12:34,540 S1: offering to pray, and I will pray that God will 233 00:12:34,540 --> 00:12:36,660 S1: bless them with good health, that God will bless them 234 00:12:36,660 --> 00:12:39,260 S1: with a lot of good money today. Honest. Fair. 235 00:12:39,300 --> 00:12:39,780 S3: Amen. 236 00:12:39,940 --> 00:12:42,820 S1: Uh, God would bless their family and their children. And, 237 00:12:42,820 --> 00:12:45,610 S1: you know, this has been almost universally very well received. 238 00:12:45,650 --> 00:12:46,850 S1: They'll say Amen with me. 239 00:12:46,890 --> 00:12:49,650 S3: I want you to pray for me, John. That's. But 240 00:12:49,650 --> 00:12:51,410 S3: but you know, there's something when someone says to me, 241 00:12:51,410 --> 00:12:54,610 S3: I'm praying for you. In fact, let's pray now. Yeah, man, 242 00:12:54,610 --> 00:12:55,729 S3: I feel loved. 243 00:12:55,970 --> 00:12:58,250 S1: Yeah, let's be bold. Let's pray for our Muslim friends. 244 00:12:58,410 --> 00:13:00,810 S1: And why don't you check out more of Lina Abu-jamal's 245 00:13:00,809 --> 00:13:07,210 S1: ministry at living with power? Bestselling author Tessa Afshar was 246 00:13:07,210 --> 00:13:10,370 S1: born and raised in the Middle East. Through her expansive 247 00:13:10,370 --> 00:13:14,010 S1: firsthand knowledge of the region, she crafts fiction that seamlessly 248 00:13:14,010 --> 00:13:19,410 S1: blends biblical stories with meticulous historical research. Debbie Macomber says, 249 00:13:19,410 --> 00:13:22,730 S1: no one brings the Bible to life like Tessa Afshar. 250 00:13:22,770 --> 00:13:25,010 S1: I agree, and it seems like every time that we 251 00:13:25,010 --> 00:13:27,610 S1: talk with her, we come away with insights for better 252 00:13:27,610 --> 00:13:30,970 S1: understanding the important details that God has left for us 253 00:13:30,970 --> 00:13:33,929 S1: in Scripture. So with that we say, welcome back to 254 00:13:33,970 --> 00:13:35,290 S1: the land and the book. Tessa. 255 00:13:35,809 --> 00:13:38,650 S4: John, it's always a pleasure to hang out with you 256 00:13:38,650 --> 00:13:42,610 S4: and your listeners. And may I just borrow that introduction 257 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,400 S4: because I couldn't have said it better. You really did 258 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,400 S4: such a fun way of introducing the novel. 259 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,079 S1: Well, see, now that's the frustrated but failing fiction writer 260 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:53,800 S1: in me, Tessa. I just couldn't resist. 261 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,960 S4: I'm amazed that you're frustrated. You're so good at it. 262 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,079 S1: Well, there's more than one reason. The biblical narrative of 263 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,840 S1: Queen Esther has really captured your heart for lots of reasons. 264 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,320 S1: You read the biblical story of Esther at a different 265 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,240 S1: level than most of us do. Explain why that is. 266 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,920 S4: Well, as you mentioned at the beginning, I was born 267 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:15,679 S4: in the Middle East. In fact, I was born in 268 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,840 S4: the very land where Esther was a queen and reigned 269 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:25,920 S4: alongside Ahasuerus, which is the Hebrew name scholars think his, 270 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,200 S4: um name as we know him is Xerxes. So I 271 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,920 S4: grew up until I was almost 14, and then I 272 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,080 S4: came first to England and eventually came to the US. 273 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,400 S4: This is my home. I am an American citizen, and 274 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,150 S4: I'm very blessed to be, because this is the country 275 00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:47,030 S4: where I also became a Christian. So for the first time, 276 00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:49,270 S4: I started reading the Bible in my mid 20s and 277 00:14:49,270 --> 00:14:52,630 S4: lo and behold, there's this old Persian era section and 278 00:14:52,630 --> 00:14:55,430 S4: I'm reading about these kings that I knew about. I 279 00:14:55,430 --> 00:14:57,470 S4: was like, oh, I know this king. I studied them 280 00:14:57,470 --> 00:15:00,070 S4: at school when I was in grade school, but I'd 281 00:15:00,070 --> 00:15:03,590 S4: never heard of Esther. You see, Esther is only mentioned 282 00:15:03,590 --> 00:15:07,670 S4: in the Bible, and she's not mentioned in these extra 283 00:15:07,950 --> 00:15:11,790 S4: historical documents. So I'd never learned about her. And I 284 00:15:11,830 --> 00:15:15,070 S4: knew as a Christian writer that one day I'd like 285 00:15:15,070 --> 00:15:17,390 S4: to circle back and write her story, but in a 286 00:15:17,390 --> 00:15:18,230 S4: different way. 287 00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:20,070 S1: I hope you do that, by the way. 288 00:15:20,550 --> 00:15:23,350 S4: Thank you. Well, by that I mean that there are 289 00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:26,950 S4: so many people who have written books that are where 290 00:15:26,950 --> 00:15:29,990 S4: the central character is Esther. So I, I knew that 291 00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:33,470 S4: story had been told. So instead I chose a series 292 00:15:33,470 --> 00:15:39,230 S4: of three books. And the central character is a fictional 293 00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:42,780 S4: friend of Esther's with an interesting job, and how they 294 00:15:42,780 --> 00:15:45,580 S4: come to be Esther's friend, and how they each help 295 00:15:45,580 --> 00:15:49,340 S4: each other become better women. Esther is in the background. 296 00:15:49,340 --> 00:15:52,820 S4: She's the support character. She's the one who becomes the 297 00:15:52,820 --> 00:15:56,180 S4: mentor in one way or another. And through Esther's eyes 298 00:15:56,180 --> 00:15:59,620 S4: and through these characters eyes, we are introduced to the 299 00:15:59,620 --> 00:16:00,980 S4: world of Persia. 300 00:16:01,500 --> 00:16:03,900 S1: Well, it's easy for us as casual Bible readers to 301 00:16:03,940 --> 00:16:07,140 S1: reduce the story of Esther to a stage play or 302 00:16:07,180 --> 00:16:09,860 S1: a two hour movie where there's very little room for 303 00:16:09,860 --> 00:16:13,500 S1: a cast list outside of the King. The queen? Mordecai 304 00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:16,780 S1: and Haman. But there had to have been other characters. 305 00:16:16,780 --> 00:16:20,620 S1: So what draws you to these other unnamed quote, lesser characters? 306 00:16:21,380 --> 00:16:25,500 S4: I think for me, the Bible's backstory, the stories that 307 00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:28,260 S4: are not told, the stories that are only hinted at, 308 00:16:28,780 --> 00:16:32,940 S4: those are the stories that are the fascinating undergirding, because 309 00:16:32,940 --> 00:16:36,380 S4: those are the regular folks. You know, you and I, John, 310 00:16:36,380 --> 00:16:38,300 S4: we're never going to be one of the prophets, and 311 00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:42,010 S4: I thank God for that daily. Well, not daily, but, 312 00:16:42,050 --> 00:16:45,810 S4: you know, because their lives were very, very challenging and 313 00:16:45,850 --> 00:16:48,930 S4: often didn't have good endings. But there are a lot 314 00:16:48,930 --> 00:16:53,690 S4: of normal people, people whose names are not mentioned, who 315 00:16:53,690 --> 00:16:59,570 S4: are undergirding these stories, whose faithfulness, whose resilience, whose commitment 316 00:16:59,570 --> 00:17:03,410 S4: to God made some of these open doors possible. And 317 00:17:03,410 --> 00:17:06,450 S4: those are the stories I want to tell because my 318 00:17:06,450 --> 00:17:10,129 S4: readers are like that. They're like me. Um, we're the 319 00:17:10,130 --> 00:17:14,090 S4: normal ones who then get inspired to live with the 320 00:17:14,090 --> 00:17:17,650 S4: same resilience, with the same faithfulness, to be encouraged in 321 00:17:17,650 --> 00:17:19,210 S4: our discouraged places. 322 00:17:19,609 --> 00:17:22,450 S1: Tessa Afshar knows more than most about the biblical story 323 00:17:22,450 --> 00:17:24,850 S1: of Esther. Her roots go back to what we know 324 00:17:24,850 --> 00:17:27,450 S1: today as ancient Persia. It's great to have her back 325 00:17:27,450 --> 00:17:30,490 S1: on the land and the book. How has using your 326 00:17:30,490 --> 00:17:34,650 S1: imagination in this book series focused on Queen Esther's court, 327 00:17:34,810 --> 00:17:38,680 S1: deepened your love for and your understanding of the biblical account? 328 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,000 S4: Well, because I had to research so much more deeply, 329 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,960 S4: it has really brought the narrative of Esther and that 330 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,560 S4: timeline alive for me in various reasons. And I think 331 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,040 S4: because my intention is obviously I want to tell a 332 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,320 S4: good story, just as Jesus did when he told the 333 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,280 S4: story of the prodigal son, for example. It's just absolutely fascinating. 334 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,040 S4: If I were a Jew from the first century and 335 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:05,680 S4: I was listening to that story, I would be at 336 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,320 S4: the edge of my seat and I would not see 337 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,120 S4: that ending coming, you know? So I want to tell 338 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,160 S4: good stories that engage my readers. But at the end 339 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,600 S4: of the story, I want people to feel closer to God, 340 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,600 S4: to feel more encouraged, to feel more peace, to feel 341 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,560 S4: a little step closer to healing in their own wounded places. 342 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,760 S4: And that means a lot of research in the Word 343 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:28,919 S4: of God for me. I'll tell you one of the 344 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,080 S4: things that was really fun for me. Um, well, I'll 345 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,720 S4: tell you two things, John. One of them is this 346 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,830 S4: particular book Work is about a potter, so it's called 347 00:18:38,830 --> 00:18:43,030 S4: the Royal Artisan because she's a potter and she works 348 00:18:43,030 --> 00:18:45,990 S4: in a workshop. She creates fine work, and I had 349 00:18:45,990 --> 00:18:49,070 S4: to go and learn pottery because I can't write about 350 00:18:49,070 --> 00:18:52,950 S4: it unless I've experienced it. And I want to know 351 00:18:53,230 --> 00:18:55,950 S4: what are the things that the Potter experiences. Because we 352 00:18:55,950 --> 00:18:59,270 S4: know in the Bible God compares himself to a potter. 353 00:18:59,590 --> 00:19:02,150 S4: And it was incredible for me, because one of the 354 00:19:02,150 --> 00:19:09,389 S4: things I realized was how much the clay depended on 355 00:19:09,390 --> 00:19:12,469 S4: the potter, that the clay never left my hand. The 356 00:19:12,470 --> 00:19:17,869 S4: clay was constantly in my hold, and I had to 357 00:19:17,869 --> 00:19:20,590 S4: be so close to it in order to shape it. 358 00:19:20,590 --> 00:19:23,870 S4: And then everything comes down to the fire. Like you 359 00:19:23,910 --> 00:19:28,150 S4: cannot create pottery that's worth its name until it goes 360 00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:31,790 S4: into the fire. And all of these drive us back 361 00:19:31,790 --> 00:19:35,410 S4: to God as the potter. And so I'm telling the 362 00:19:35,410 --> 00:19:38,970 S4: story of a potter and that potter is leading us 363 00:19:38,970 --> 00:19:41,090 S4: to God. And I'm learning all of this as I'm 364 00:19:41,090 --> 00:19:44,850 S4: learning pottery. So that was one of the things that 365 00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:49,530 S4: really helped me. But I will tell you another thing that, um, 366 00:19:49,570 --> 00:19:52,609 S4: in the story I focus on. So this is a 367 00:19:52,609 --> 00:19:55,250 S4: tiny bit of a spoiler, but it's not a huge 368 00:19:55,250 --> 00:19:58,250 S4: spoiler because you will find out about it early enough 369 00:19:58,250 --> 00:20:01,570 S4: in the story. So there is an object in this 370 00:20:01,570 --> 00:20:04,450 S4: novel which is a real object. I have seen it 371 00:20:04,450 --> 00:20:08,570 S4: myself at the British Museum in London and it is 372 00:20:08,570 --> 00:20:12,090 S4: called the Cyrus Cylinder. Now, some of your savvy listeners 373 00:20:12,090 --> 00:20:15,450 S4: are going to recognize this right away, but a lot 374 00:20:15,450 --> 00:20:18,090 S4: of them are going to say, what on earth is that? Well, 375 00:20:18,090 --> 00:20:22,290 S4: this is a clay cylinder that was made in Babylon. 376 00:20:22,770 --> 00:20:26,129 S4: You will remember the story of the captives in Babylon. 377 00:20:26,330 --> 00:20:30,050 S4: They were taken into captivity from the southern kingdom of Judah, 378 00:20:30,369 --> 00:20:32,970 S4: and they were told that you will remain in captivity 379 00:20:33,010 --> 00:20:37,400 S4: for 70 years, and after 70 years, God will give 380 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,600 S4: you your freedom. So it's a promise. It's a prophecy 381 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,960 S4: made by several prophets, but it seemed impossible. Decade after 382 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,520 S4: decade goes by. There is nobody strong enough to set 383 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,000 S4: them free from captivity. And even if they could overcome 384 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,720 S4: the strongest nation in the world at that time, Babylon. 385 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,160 S4: Who's going to care about a bunch of little judaeans 386 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,560 S4: who have no connection? Their country is messed up. And 387 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,760 S4: yet here comes Cyrus, whom God has prophesied about, and 388 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:12,040 S4: he enters Babylon, and he actually conquers Babylon. And very 389 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,840 S4: soon after that, what he does is he makes this 390 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:21,800 S4: declaration that everyone who is a captive in Babylon is 391 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,200 S4: not free. They can return to their own nations and 392 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,320 S4: they can worship their own gods. It's an unheard of 393 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,990 S4: declaration by a conquering king And you know, by modern 394 00:21:34,030 --> 00:21:38,150 S4: some modern scholars say that this is the first sort 395 00:21:38,150 --> 00:21:41,830 S4: of human rights declaration. And in its own way, it is. 396 00:21:41,869 --> 00:21:44,030 S4: It's not quite to the level that we would like, 397 00:21:44,030 --> 00:21:46,510 S4: but it is. It's something that we had never seen 398 00:21:46,510 --> 00:21:50,629 S4: in history until that point. So this declaration and, you know, 399 00:21:50,830 --> 00:21:53,750 S4: you know the Bible probably better than I do, John. 400 00:21:53,950 --> 00:21:58,270 S4: And you know that it's rare to find objects that 401 00:21:58,270 --> 00:22:04,310 S4: bring history, archaeology and prophecy together in one place, right? 402 00:22:04,350 --> 00:22:06,510 S4: Most of those objects are lost to us. You know, 403 00:22:06,550 --> 00:22:10,149 S4: we no longer have the Ten Commandments like those are gone. 404 00:22:10,150 --> 00:22:14,909 S4: We no longer have the manna from the wilderness that's 405 00:22:14,950 --> 00:22:17,550 S4: lost to us. God, in his wisdom knows those things 406 00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:20,629 S4: often become idols for us, and so he has taken 407 00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:24,430 S4: them away. But he has not taken this particular object away, 408 00:22:24,670 --> 00:22:28,310 S4: the Cyrus Cylinder. And it is a reminder of the 409 00:22:28,310 --> 00:22:32,300 S4: faithfulness of God. There is not a single prophetic word 410 00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:36,300 S4: that God has made for our lives, for the lives 411 00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:40,939 S4: of his people that will not come to be fulfilled. 412 00:22:40,940 --> 00:22:43,620 S4: Every promise of God we can stand on, even though 413 00:22:43,619 --> 00:22:45,939 S4: it feels impossible. So you're going to say, what's that 414 00:22:45,940 --> 00:22:48,220 S4: got to do with Queen Esther? Well, let me tell you. 415 00:22:49,060 --> 00:22:56,180 S4: 66 years later, Haman makes his declaration. Haman says, in 416 00:22:56,180 --> 00:22:59,420 S4: 11 months, every Jew in the empire of Persia is 417 00:22:59,420 --> 00:23:03,100 S4: going to be killed. Well, they now need a reminder. 418 00:23:03,540 --> 00:23:07,500 S4: They need something that they can hold on to, that 419 00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:10,660 S4: this is the same God who was faithful then, and 420 00:23:10,660 --> 00:23:13,899 S4: he will be faithful now. He opened impossible doors then, 421 00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:18,500 S4: and he will open impossible doors now. And this very object, 422 00:23:18,780 --> 00:23:21,740 S4: this ancient artifact. For them, it would have been 66 423 00:23:21,740 --> 00:23:25,219 S4: years old. For us, it's thousands of years old. This 424 00:23:25,220 --> 00:23:28,460 S4: was the perfect reminder for them to remember it. The 425 00:23:28,460 --> 00:23:32,890 S4: God who used this gentile king to set them free. 426 00:23:32,930 --> 00:23:38,050 S4: Once he can use unexpected paths and people to do 427 00:23:38,050 --> 00:23:38,890 S4: the same again. 428 00:23:39,090 --> 00:23:41,770 S1: Oh that's great. This is the land and the book. 429 00:23:41,770 --> 00:23:45,649 S1: I'm John Gager, joined by our guest, Tessa Afshar. You know, 430 00:23:45,850 --> 00:23:49,929 S1: what safeguards do you have in place to make sure 431 00:23:49,930 --> 00:23:52,250 S1: you stay within the biblical narrative as you write? 432 00:23:53,369 --> 00:23:57,209 S4: That's such a great question. For me, basically, I read 433 00:23:57,210 --> 00:24:01,130 S4: all the verses and all the books that have anything 434 00:24:01,170 --> 00:24:05,889 S4: to do with this particular book. And then I realized 435 00:24:05,890 --> 00:24:08,570 S4: those are my boundaries. I'm not going to go outside 436 00:24:08,570 --> 00:24:11,690 S4: those boundaries, whatever it says in here. This is the 437 00:24:11,690 --> 00:24:15,210 S4: truth for me, that I will not violate whatever else 438 00:24:15,210 --> 00:24:18,850 S4: I'm writing into. It has to fall within those guidelines. 439 00:24:18,850 --> 00:24:21,690 S4: So obviously, I'm going to take that Cyrus cylinder and 440 00:24:21,690 --> 00:24:24,450 S4: I'm going to make up a whole story that did 441 00:24:24,450 --> 00:24:27,130 S4: not occur, as far as we know in real life, 442 00:24:27,330 --> 00:24:30,639 S4: but the truths that are within that story are the 443 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,680 S4: ones that I'm going to rely heavily on, because I 444 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:39,480 S4: want our readers to know that God's prophecy is absolutely 445 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,440 S4: constant in its dependency. 446 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,920 S1: Mm. Hey, real quick, in about a minute or so left, 447 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,840 S1: what tips might you share with listeners who wonder what 448 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,600 S1: secrets does Tessa have for digging just a bit deeper 449 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,760 S1: and exploring details in Scripture that we might be overlooking? 450 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,400 S4: I think read Scripture every day. I have made a commitment. 451 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,960 S4: I read Scripture every day, and there are verses that 452 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,919 S4: I will read over and over again to go deeper. 453 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,760 S4: I will ask questions why is this speaking to me? 454 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,919 S4: And there are verses that I will need help, so 455 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,560 S4: I will dig into finding out. Are there other verses 456 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,000 S4: that will illuminate this one, but that commitment that there 457 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,320 S4: are promises in the Bible for reading the Bible daily, 458 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,480 S4: day and night. And I trust those promises. So I, 459 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,800 S4: I'm not saying I'm perfect at it, but I do 460 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,390 S4: try my best to read the Bible every day. 461 00:25:28,430 --> 00:25:31,430 S1: All right. Steadily in the word. Day by day. And 462 00:25:31,430 --> 00:25:35,510 S1: the insights come. Tessa Afshar, you are always a fascinating conversation. 463 00:25:35,550 --> 00:25:38,430 S1: Thank you for this book, The Royal Artisan. And we've 464 00:25:38,430 --> 00:25:40,109 S1: got a link to it at our website. Thank you 465 00:25:40,109 --> 00:25:41,310 S1: for your time as well. 466 00:25:41,510 --> 00:25:44,670 S4: Thank you so much. It's always lovely to be with you, John. 467 00:25:44,750 --> 00:25:46,629 S1: Well, coming up on the land in the book, A 468 00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:49,990 S1: conversation with Gerald Peterman from the Moody Faculty. I love 469 00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:52,990 S1: his answers to your Bible questions. That's next right here 470 00:25:52,990 --> 00:26:07,350 S1: on Moody Radio's The Land and the book. Thanks for 471 00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:09,790 S1: reconnecting with us at the land and the book. I'm 472 00:26:09,790 --> 00:26:11,990 S1: John Gager with a big shout out to anybody who's 473 00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:14,990 S1: been listening for more than two or 3 or 4 years. 474 00:26:14,990 --> 00:26:17,070 S1: We've been on the air, by the way, for 15 475 00:26:17,070 --> 00:26:20,709 S1: years as a broadcast. Just celebrated that a month or 476 00:26:20,710 --> 00:26:23,350 S1: so ago. But we're glad for your company anytime you 477 00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:25,590 S1: join us. And I should give you our email address 478 00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:29,420 S1: up front because we're all about questions and answers. Bible 479 00:26:29,420 --> 00:26:32,740 S1: questions yours. Here's how you get yours to us for 480 00:26:32,740 --> 00:26:35,020 S1: a personal answer in the email, and to hear it 481 00:26:35,060 --> 00:26:37,540 S1: broadcast on a future episode of the Land of the book. 482 00:26:37,580 --> 00:26:40,340 S1: Ready for this? It's an email, that's all. To the 483 00:26:40,340 --> 00:26:45,500 S1: land and the book at. The land and the book 484 00:26:45,540 --> 00:26:49,899 S1: at Moody. I hear our expert over here laughing, Gerald Peterman. 485 00:26:50,660 --> 00:26:54,219 S5: That's because we've not even started answering questions. It's already fun. 486 00:26:54,740 --> 00:26:56,379 S1: We do have a great time as you're about to 487 00:26:56,380 --> 00:26:58,420 S1: discover if you're new to the program, and we've always 488 00:26:58,420 --> 00:27:01,540 S1: got newcomers, we're glad for you too. Did you know 489 00:27:01,540 --> 00:27:05,140 S1: that most Jewish people have never heard the gospel? That's 490 00:27:05,140 --> 00:27:07,379 S1: a sad thing. That's not a fun thing. And every 491 00:27:07,380 --> 00:27:09,500 S1: week we talk about Israel and the Jewish people. And 492 00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:12,899 S1: it's important to remember that, like everybody else, they need 493 00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:15,860 S1: to hear the good news. Well, life in Messiah, a 494 00:27:15,859 --> 00:27:20,300 S1: ministry in existence for more than 135 years, is totally 495 00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:23,820 S1: devoted to sharing the gospel with Jewish people around the world. 496 00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:27,450 S1: And now they're offering a gift to Moody listeners. That's right. 497 00:27:27,490 --> 00:27:30,850 S1: They've got a free e-book, Reaching Jewish People for Messiah, 498 00:27:30,850 --> 00:27:32,850 S1: and it highlights the need for the gospel among the 499 00:27:32,850 --> 00:27:36,090 S1: Jewish people, and will equip you with practical ways to 500 00:27:36,130 --> 00:27:38,489 S1: share the good news with them. Now, how do you 501 00:27:38,490 --> 00:27:42,290 S1: get this free e-book? Thanks for asking. Visit Life in Messiah. 502 00:27:42,330 --> 00:27:45,330 S1: Org and click on the Moody Radio logo there to 503 00:27:45,369 --> 00:27:48,369 S1: sign up and get your copy. Again, that's life in 504 00:27:48,450 --> 00:27:52,689 S1: Messiah from the classrooms of the Moody Bible Institute. We 505 00:27:52,690 --> 00:27:55,730 S1: have yanked out Doctor Gerald Peterman and said, would you 506 00:27:55,730 --> 00:27:58,250 S1: please come and be with us today? And he's graciously said. 507 00:27:58,250 --> 00:27:59,330 S5: Oh, yes, oh yes. 508 00:27:59,330 --> 00:28:01,770 S1: Oh, yes. With that said, we're going to get to 509 00:28:01,810 --> 00:28:04,250 S1: as many questions as we can of yours. And as 510 00:28:04,250 --> 00:28:06,250 S1: being the first, she says, I want to know what 511 00:28:06,250 --> 00:28:10,250 S1: happens to unborn children and miscarriages. Will I meet and 512 00:28:10,250 --> 00:28:12,250 S1: see them when I get to heaven? Will they grow 513 00:28:12,250 --> 00:28:13,570 S1: up into adults? 514 00:28:14,010 --> 00:28:17,370 S5: Um, this is a very important question. Very sensitive and 515 00:28:17,369 --> 00:28:20,730 S5: painful one. So we have to talk about it. I 516 00:28:20,730 --> 00:28:24,149 S5: take it we will see our lost children in heaven. 517 00:28:24,150 --> 00:28:26,389 S5: But whether we get to talk with them, whether they 518 00:28:26,430 --> 00:28:30,070 S5: grow up. I'm sorry, I don't know. Let's go to 519 00:28:30,390 --> 00:28:35,510 S5: Psalm 139. David talks about himself before he's born. It says, 520 00:28:35,510 --> 00:28:38,190 S5: you formed me in my inward parts. You knitted me 521 00:28:38,190 --> 00:28:40,070 S5: together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I 522 00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:43,470 S5: am fearfully and wonderfully made. My frame was not hidden 523 00:28:43,470 --> 00:28:46,710 S5: from you when I was made in secret. Your eyes 524 00:28:46,750 --> 00:28:51,150 S5: saw my unformed substance. In your book were written every 525 00:28:51,150 --> 00:28:54,710 S5: one of my days before you formed me. That is, 526 00:28:55,310 --> 00:28:59,710 S5: God knows the individual in the womb before she or 527 00:28:59,710 --> 00:29:04,430 S5: he is born. It's a personal knowledge. You remember when 528 00:29:04,470 --> 00:29:09,270 S5: David loses his son Bathsheba's son? What's going on there 529 00:29:09,270 --> 00:29:12,870 S5: when he dies? David says while the child was alive, 530 00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:15,870 S5: I fasted and wept. Now that he's dead, why should 531 00:29:15,870 --> 00:29:19,830 S5: I fast? Can I bring him back? Now hear this. 532 00:29:20,310 --> 00:29:23,500 S5: I will go to him, but he will not return 533 00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:28,180 S5: to me. David finds comfort in this. So where is 534 00:29:28,180 --> 00:29:30,900 S5: the child going? To the grave. I take it. No. 535 00:29:30,940 --> 00:29:33,420 S5: The child is going to the presence of God. I 536 00:29:33,420 --> 00:29:36,300 S5: will dwell in your house all the days of my life, 537 00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:39,100 S5: and you'll accept me into eternity. So I take it 538 00:29:39,620 --> 00:29:42,820 S5: our unborn lost children will be in heaven with us. 539 00:29:43,780 --> 00:29:47,500 S1: Janie's asking about a recent devotional where Charlie mentioned Yom Kippur, 540 00:29:47,540 --> 00:29:51,540 S1: referencing Zechariah 12 and 13 and Romans 11. And she says, 541 00:29:51,540 --> 00:29:55,740 S1: it's the little word all that confuses me. Romans 1126 says, 542 00:29:55,740 --> 00:29:59,820 S1: All Israel will be saved. Zechariah 13 eight and nine says, 543 00:29:59,820 --> 00:30:02,620 S1: in the whole land, declares the Lord, two thirds shall 544 00:30:02,620 --> 00:30:04,980 S1: be cut off and perish, and one third shall be 545 00:30:04,980 --> 00:30:08,820 S1: left alive. Can you clarify for me the Greek definition 546 00:30:08,820 --> 00:30:10,620 S1: of all in Romans? 547 00:30:10,660 --> 00:30:13,580 S5: Oh, I appreciate that question. Really do let's talk about 548 00:30:13,580 --> 00:30:19,220 S5: this little word all in Greek. It's the word pos. Okay. 549 00:30:19,380 --> 00:30:22,290 S5: What does POS mean? Let me give you a few examples. 550 00:30:22,290 --> 00:30:26,530 S5: It can mean each. So Matthew three. Each tree that 551 00:30:26,530 --> 00:30:30,010 S5: does not bear fruit is cut down. It can mean any. 552 00:30:30,330 --> 00:30:34,450 S5: So Matthew 19 the Pharisees asked Jesus, is it lawful 553 00:30:34,450 --> 00:30:38,250 S5: to divorce one's wife for any cause? Or it can 554 00:30:38,250 --> 00:30:42,330 S5: mean all kinds of. So James 117 every good gift 555 00:30:42,450 --> 00:30:45,130 S5: and every perfect gift is from above, and it can 556 00:30:45,130 --> 00:30:51,250 S5: mean something like the majority of acts. 19 All Asia 557 00:30:51,290 --> 00:30:53,050 S5: heard the Word of God. So when we come to 558 00:30:53,090 --> 00:31:00,090 S5: Romans 11, we're talking about Israel passing through the tribulation period, Zechariah. 559 00:31:00,570 --> 00:31:04,650 S5: But sadly, many of them dying in the persecution, but 560 00:31:04,650 --> 00:31:08,690 S5: the majority of Israel being saved. Again, what does Paul 561 00:31:08,690 --> 00:31:13,090 S5: mean by all Israel? We mean the vast majority of Israelites. 562 00:31:13,450 --> 00:31:15,770 S1: This is the land. And the book from Moody Radio. 563 00:31:15,770 --> 00:31:19,880 S1: Doctor Gerald Peterman is our faculty member from Moody Bible Institute, 564 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,360 S1: always in the chair with us every week to answer 565 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,240 S1: your Bible questions, which he welcomes with an email to 566 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,640 S1: the land and the book at Moody, the land and 567 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,000 S1: the book at Moody. What's it like to be in 568 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,200 S1: a classroom day after day here at Moody? 569 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,800 S5: That's that's how I keep my energy. It's exhilarating. It's 570 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,970 S5: how I feel young every day interacting with these 18 571 00:31:42,970 --> 00:31:45,520 S5: to 22 year old students. It's just so much fun. 572 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,160 S1: Doesn't that sound like something you'd like your child to 573 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,280 S1: be part of your grandchild? You can find out everything 574 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:55,600 S1: you need to know about Moody Education at Moody. That's easy. Moody. 575 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,000 S1: All right. Richard says, I'm a little confused with Jesus 576 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,440 S1: present tense language when he says to Mary Magdalene in 577 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,440 S1: John chapter 20 to go to my brothers and say 578 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,840 S1: to them, I am ascending to my father and your father, 579 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,640 S1: to my God and your God. Does he say this? 580 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,640 S1: You know, literally as he's moving up to heaven. 581 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,880 S5: Oh, I appreciate that. I take it short answer is no. 582 00:32:18,190 --> 00:32:23,550 S5: Why would Jesus use present tense language about something that's future? 583 00:32:23,870 --> 00:32:27,709 S5: He uses it because that future thing is pending. It's imminent. 584 00:32:27,830 --> 00:32:30,590 S5: It's the next big deal that's coming up. So when 585 00:32:30,590 --> 00:32:33,950 S5: he's talking to Mary Magdalene, sure, he'll have some time 586 00:32:33,950 --> 00:32:36,990 S5: with the disciples. But what's next on his agenda? It's 587 00:32:36,990 --> 00:32:40,590 S5: the ascension. And then after he ascends, he can send 588 00:32:40,630 --> 00:32:43,670 S5: the spirit. Actually, Jesus does this in other places as well. 589 00:32:43,710 --> 00:32:45,790 S5: Let me take you to one other example of this 590 00:32:45,790 --> 00:32:48,790 S5: kind of this kind of present tense language. We're in 591 00:32:48,790 --> 00:32:52,350 S5: the triumphal entry. Jesus is coming into Jerusalem. It's the 592 00:32:52,350 --> 00:32:55,030 S5: last week before his death. And I take you to 593 00:32:55,070 --> 00:33:00,350 S5: John 1231. Jesus says, now is the judgment of this world. 594 00:33:00,710 --> 00:33:04,030 S5: Now will the ruler of this world be cast out? 595 00:33:04,670 --> 00:33:07,230 S5: When is this world judged? When is the ruler of 596 00:33:07,230 --> 00:33:11,030 S5: this world cast out? I take it that's at the crucifixion, right? 597 00:33:11,230 --> 00:33:12,790 S1: Not at that second, but it's imminent. 598 00:33:12,790 --> 00:33:16,310 S5: It's imminent. That's the next thing on the agenda. That's 599 00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:18,820 S5: the next thing on the plan. So he often uses 600 00:33:18,820 --> 00:33:22,540 S5: present tense about something that's pending and certain. 601 00:33:22,820 --> 00:33:25,380 S1: The next thing in our plan is to answer Paul's question. 602 00:33:25,580 --> 00:33:28,460 S1: He says, I've got two questions, maybe three. How many 603 00:33:28,460 --> 00:33:32,300 S1: tabernacles or tents of meeting were there? How many years 604 00:33:32,300 --> 00:33:36,020 S1: between the Exodus and David? And what about until King 605 00:33:36,020 --> 00:33:37,020 S1: Solomon's Temple? 606 00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:40,100 S5: I really appreciate this because I had not thought about it. 607 00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:42,940 S5: And so Paul has forced me to go back. Thanks, Paul, 608 00:33:42,940 --> 00:33:46,660 S5: and rethink and restudy. So the answer is there are 609 00:33:46,660 --> 00:33:51,380 S5: two tents. One is called the Tent of meeting. This 610 00:33:51,380 --> 00:33:55,220 S5: is a tent that Moses sets up. Exodus 33 and 611 00:33:55,220 --> 00:33:57,860 S5: he goes out there and he meets with God, and 612 00:33:57,860 --> 00:34:00,540 S5: he prays, and other people can go out there and 613 00:34:00,540 --> 00:34:04,300 S5: meet with Moses and talk. So that's the tent of meeting. 614 00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:07,900 S5: And then there's what we commonly call the tabernacle. It's 615 00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:12,420 S5: created in Exodus. And sometimes that's also called the tent 616 00:34:12,420 --> 00:34:15,779 S5: of meeting. But Moses's tent, remember the one he has 617 00:34:15,890 --> 00:34:18,530 S5: for himself. That's never called the Tabernacle. That's just called 618 00:34:18,530 --> 00:34:21,489 S5: the Tent of meeting. But sometimes the tabernacle is called 619 00:34:21,489 --> 00:34:25,730 S5: the Tent of meeting. So there's two, um, I can 620 00:34:25,730 --> 00:34:28,290 S5: see where you could easily confuse them. And there's a 621 00:34:28,290 --> 00:34:32,530 S5: second part to the question. Let's talk about Exodus, David 622 00:34:32,530 --> 00:34:38,250 S5: and Solomon. So the exodus from Egypt happens around 1440 BC, 623 00:34:38,570 --> 00:34:45,170 S5: maybe 1445. Samuel anoints David to be king around 1010 BC. 624 00:34:45,690 --> 00:34:50,009 S5: According to First Kings two, David reigns for 40 years. 625 00:34:50,450 --> 00:34:53,569 S5: So if we do the math, Solomon starts reigning at 626 00:34:53,570 --> 00:34:59,210 S5: 970 BC. According to First Kings six, he starts building 627 00:34:59,410 --> 00:35:01,089 S5: on the fourth year of his reign and completes it 628 00:35:01,090 --> 00:35:04,689 S5: on the 11th. So the temple is constructed until around 629 00:35:04,730 --> 00:35:07,170 S5: 955 BC. 630 00:35:07,370 --> 00:35:09,330 S1: That's a lot of math, a lot of homework. Thank 631 00:35:09,370 --> 00:35:12,290 S1: you for doing it. Yep. Cooper's question when people talk 632 00:35:12,330 --> 00:35:15,190 S1: about trusting in the person and work of Christ to 633 00:35:15,230 --> 00:35:18,070 S1: be saved. What works of Christ are they referring to? 634 00:35:18,350 --> 00:35:20,830 S5: Oh, Cooper, I, I could see where this could be 635 00:35:20,830 --> 00:35:24,390 S5: a confusing question. Really? Really. I do, most of the 636 00:35:24,390 --> 00:35:27,390 S5: time when I hear people talking about trusting the works 637 00:35:27,390 --> 00:35:31,750 S5: of Christ, they mean something like Jesus dies on your behalf. 638 00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:36,350 S5: That's true. Right? So you should trust that work or 639 00:35:36,750 --> 00:35:41,629 S5: Jesus lives a righteous life on your behalf, so you 640 00:35:41,630 --> 00:35:44,750 S5: should trust that work or other examples. If I were 641 00:35:44,750 --> 00:35:46,509 S5: to take some time to think about it, we could 642 00:35:46,510 --> 00:35:49,989 S5: come up with some other examples. Typically, though, the New 643 00:35:49,989 --> 00:35:54,310 S5: Testament doesn't call us to trust Christ's work. It calls 644 00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:57,270 S5: us to trust Christ. That is, it calls us to 645 00:35:57,310 --> 00:36:00,910 S5: trust a Christ who indeed was resurrected, to trust a 646 00:36:00,910 --> 00:36:03,430 S5: Christ who indeed died on our behalf. To trust a 647 00:36:03,430 --> 00:36:07,390 S5: Christ who indeed ascended to the father or lived a 648 00:36:07,390 --> 00:36:08,390 S5: life in our place. 649 00:36:08,989 --> 00:36:11,589 S1: Time for one more quick question here from Marlene. She says, 650 00:36:11,590 --> 00:36:14,660 S1: I'm trying to understand where Mount Zion is. Could it 651 00:36:14,660 --> 00:36:17,020 S1: be Mount Moriah or Jerusalem in general? 652 00:36:17,460 --> 00:36:20,740 S5: Thanks, Marlene. You're starting to answer your question. Very good. 653 00:36:20,739 --> 00:36:25,260 S5: Well done. The question makes sense because this word Zion 654 00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:29,940 S5: is used several different ways in Scripture. So first, Zion 655 00:36:29,940 --> 00:36:35,500 S5: is the Canaanite stronghold that David captures in two Samuel five. 656 00:36:35,780 --> 00:36:39,180 S5: And then after the ark is moved, there, Zion is 657 00:36:39,180 --> 00:36:43,260 S5: the city of God. Psalm 46. Wait. Then the ark 658 00:36:43,260 --> 00:36:46,420 S5: is moved to Mount Moriah. When the temple is built, 659 00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:50,660 S5: the place where Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. Right? And then 660 00:36:50,660 --> 00:36:54,500 S5: that place is called Zion. Psalm 78. But wait, there's more. 661 00:36:54,780 --> 00:36:59,500 S5: Then later in Scripture, all of Jerusalem can be called Zion. 662 00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:01,740 S5: So we read this in Isaiah 40, verse nine. 663 00:37:02,020 --> 00:37:03,980 S1: All right. Thank you for unscrambling some of that for 664 00:37:03,980 --> 00:37:06,700 S1: us and for all these other questions as well. Don't 665 00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:09,379 S1: go away. One more segment. Doctor Charlie Dyer back with 666 00:37:09,380 --> 00:37:25,530 S1: his devotional next right here. Welcome back to the land 667 00:37:25,530 --> 00:37:29,570 S1: and the book segment for a devotional from Charlie Dyer. Charlie, 668 00:37:29,570 --> 00:37:32,130 S1: it's a favorite Bible story, I think, for nearly every 669 00:37:32,170 --> 00:37:37,009 S1: Sunday school kid. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego or whatever they 670 00:37:37,010 --> 00:37:39,770 S1: do with those names. But it's a great story. Never 671 00:37:39,770 --> 00:37:40,810 S1: gets old, does it? 672 00:37:40,850 --> 00:37:43,009 S2: Oh, it does not. Yeah, I keep thinking there were 673 00:37:43,010 --> 00:37:47,370 S2: three men so very long ago Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. 674 00:37:47,690 --> 00:37:49,690 S1: Charlie, you need an orchestra to back you up. 675 00:37:49,730 --> 00:37:51,009 S2: To drown me out. What we need? 676 00:37:51,050 --> 00:37:53,690 S1: Yes, well, we're getting ahead of ourselves. We're going to 677 00:37:53,690 --> 00:37:56,290 S1: get to Charlie's devotional. You're going to hear this story 678 00:37:56,290 --> 00:37:58,410 S1: with a whole new perspective as you hang out with 679 00:37:58,410 --> 00:38:00,569 S1: us here at The Land and the book first, though 680 00:38:00,610 --> 00:38:03,370 S1: a Holy Land experience testimony. Check this out. 681 00:38:07,489 --> 00:38:11,840 S6: Hi, I'm Kathleen and I am just thoroughly enjoyed this trip. 682 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,239 S6: It has been just wonderful and in our home church 683 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:22,320 S6: we enjoy worship. But I have not experienced worship like 684 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,000 S6: I did on the Sea of Galilee. It was just 685 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,759 S6: a closeness to the Lord that I never would have 686 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,880 S6: believed possible, and I thank you for that. 687 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,560 S7: This has been a wonderful experience and I don't think 688 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,680 S7: I'll ever read scripture in the same way again, because 689 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,480 S7: by being on this tour and with this group and 690 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,879 S7: with Charlie leading us, it's a wonderful experience to be 691 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,000 S7: standing in the places, opening up the scripture, having Charlie 692 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,560 S7: read us a scripture, and then his explanation of the 693 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:59,440 S7: scripture to just really make it come alive and become 694 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,920 S7: more real than just reading some words on a page 695 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,080 S7: of a book. And so it has really helped me 696 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,280 S7: to connect the land and the book. 697 00:39:10,469 --> 00:39:13,149 S1: Charlie, I'm excited about this story. Bring it alive for us, 698 00:39:13,150 --> 00:39:13,589 S1: will you? 699 00:39:13,870 --> 00:39:16,549 S2: Oh. Thanks, John. Well, today's devotional is the fifth in 700 00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:19,870 S2: my eight part series I'm calling Great Confessions of the Bible. 701 00:39:20,270 --> 00:39:23,190 S2: The focus is on memorable lines spoken at key points 702 00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:26,069 S2: in history by some of the great heroes of the faith. 703 00:39:26,070 --> 00:39:29,350 S2: And today's great confession takes us to the hot, dusty 704 00:39:29,390 --> 00:39:33,109 S2: plain of dura, outside the ancient city of Babylon. We 705 00:39:33,150 --> 00:39:35,870 S2: actually left the city of Babylon several hours ago for 706 00:39:35,870 --> 00:39:39,469 S2: our trek to this wide plain. Babylon is a capital 707 00:39:39,510 --> 00:39:42,549 S2: on the rise, with carpenters and brickmasons at work in 708 00:39:42,550 --> 00:39:45,549 S2: every corner of the city. The ziggurat in the center 709 00:39:45,550 --> 00:39:49,189 S2: of town is undergoing expansion, rising to new heights, as 710 00:39:49,190 --> 00:39:53,230 S2: are the city walls. Nebuchadnezzar's own palace is a beehive 711 00:39:53,230 --> 00:39:56,109 S2: of construction. In fact, the road to dura is lined 712 00:39:56,150 --> 00:39:59,870 S2: with brick kilns, churning out all the building materials needed 713 00:39:59,870 --> 00:40:03,590 S2: for these ambitious projects. But we quickly forget about Babylon 714 00:40:03,590 --> 00:40:06,190 S2: as we top a slight rise and gaze out on 715 00:40:06,190 --> 00:40:09,060 S2: the plain of dura. In the distance is an immense 716 00:40:09,060 --> 00:40:12,779 S2: statue rising to a height of 90ft. The statue is 717 00:40:12,780 --> 00:40:15,739 S2: clad in gold and glistens under the intense brightness of 718 00:40:15,739 --> 00:40:18,779 S2: the noonday sun, and the scene around the statue is 719 00:40:18,780 --> 00:40:23,260 S2: no less amazing. Thousands of royal dignitaries are gathered, arrayed 720 00:40:23,260 --> 00:40:28,180 S2: in their finest robes, representing scores of different nationalities. Standing 721 00:40:28,180 --> 00:40:30,979 S2: on a raised platform next to the statue is King 722 00:40:30,980 --> 00:40:35,060 S2: Nebuchadnezzar himself. Off to the left stand the court musicians 723 00:40:35,060 --> 00:40:39,620 S2: preparing to play on their exotic instruments harps, drums, flutes, 724 00:40:39,620 --> 00:40:43,339 S2: and several other instruments you've never even seen before. The 725 00:40:43,340 --> 00:40:47,020 S2: gathering is impressive, but you know the reason these dignitaries 726 00:40:47,020 --> 00:40:49,660 S2: have been summoned. Just over a year ago, there was 727 00:40:49,660 --> 00:40:53,300 S2: a coup attempt against King Nebuchadnezzar. The threat was so 728 00:40:53,300 --> 00:40:55,980 S2: serious that it was the main item listed in the 729 00:40:55,980 --> 00:40:59,860 S2: Royal Chronicle for that year. Elements from the king's army rebelled, 730 00:40:59,860 --> 00:41:03,340 S2: as did some of the rulers in outlying provinces. Fighting 731 00:41:03,340 --> 00:41:07,209 S2: also took place in Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar quickly saw who was 732 00:41:07,210 --> 00:41:09,250 S2: loyal to him and who was not among those living 733 00:41:09,250 --> 00:41:12,610 S2: in Babylon, but it was less clear out in the provinces. 734 00:41:12,930 --> 00:41:15,210 S2: Once the fighting was over, those who had been part 735 00:41:15,210 --> 00:41:18,770 S2: of the conspiracy slipped back into the shadows. And that's 736 00:41:18,770 --> 00:41:22,370 S2: why King Nebuchadnezzar has summoned all these officials to appear 737 00:41:22,370 --> 00:41:26,009 S2: before him. The statue, perhaps representing the one in his 738 00:41:26,010 --> 00:41:30,689 S2: earlier dream, symbolizes Nebuchadnezzar. And it's now time for all 739 00:41:30,730 --> 00:41:34,410 S2: these officials to show their loyalty by bowing down before 740 00:41:34,410 --> 00:41:37,290 S2: the statue and submitting to the gods who have made 741 00:41:37,290 --> 00:41:41,370 S2: him king. It seems everyone is anxious to show his loyalty, 742 00:41:41,650 --> 00:41:45,250 S2: since the penalty for disobedience is immediate death inside one 743 00:41:45,250 --> 00:41:48,690 S2: of the nearby brick kilns. As the music begins, the 744 00:41:48,690 --> 00:41:52,210 S2: mass of frightened leaders fall on their faces, desperate to 745 00:41:52,250 --> 00:41:55,489 S2: display their loyalty by bowing down and doing homage to 746 00:41:55,530 --> 00:41:59,490 S2: the statue. But wait. We rub our eyes and then 747 00:41:59,489 --> 00:42:03,130 S2: look again at the crowd. Three men have remained standing. 748 00:42:03,489 --> 00:42:07,719 S2: Some of the king's minions rush forward, pointing toward the men. Look, sire, 749 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,799 S2: some of those Jews you put in charge over the 750 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,400 S2: province of Babylon didn't bow down. See, it's the three Hebrews. 751 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,240 S2: One official whispers to a companion. But where's their friend? 752 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,560 S2: The one they named Daniel. Didn't you hear? His friend 753 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,399 S2: whispered back when these three were made administrators, Daniel stayed 754 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,080 S2: in the royal court. He already demonstrated his loyalty during 755 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,480 S2: the rebellion. Only those from outside the city were summoned 756 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,799 S2: here today. Nebuchadnezzar, in a fit of rage, barks out 757 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,480 S2: an order, and guards rush to drag the three men 758 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,480 S2: up to the king. Is it true you didn't bow 759 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,520 S2: down in spite of my order? I'll give you one 760 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,320 S2: more chance to demonstrate your loyalty. This time the music 761 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,880 S2: will sound just for you. And when you hear it, 762 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,320 S2: you had better bow down. Or I'll have you thrown 763 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,600 S2: immediately into the blazing furnace. And there's no God who 764 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,680 S2: can save you. Talk about peer pressure. There's a natural 765 00:43:03,860 --> 00:43:07,020 S2: tendency within us to want to conform, to fit in, 766 00:43:07,060 --> 00:43:09,580 S2: to be part of the crowd. Now add to that 767 00:43:09,580 --> 00:43:12,420 S2: the additional pressure of standing in front of the King. 768 00:43:12,820 --> 00:43:16,100 S2: Of having thousands of others watching and of knowing the 769 00:43:16,100 --> 00:43:21,140 S2: serious consequences for nonconformity. Don't minimize the pressure these three 770 00:43:21,180 --> 00:43:23,860 S2: were facing. And that's why the next words out of 771 00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:27,219 S2: their mouths are one of the great confessions of Scripture. 772 00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:30,940 S2: Turning to the King, they said, if it be so, 773 00:43:31,260 --> 00:43:33,940 S2: our God whom we serve, is able to deliver us 774 00:43:33,940 --> 00:43:36,620 S2: from the furnace of blazing fire, and he will deliver 775 00:43:36,620 --> 00:43:39,020 S2: us out of your hand, O king. But even if 776 00:43:39,020 --> 00:43:41,540 S2: he does not let it be known to you, O King, 777 00:43:41,540 --> 00:43:44,299 S2: that we are not going to serve your gods or 778 00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:48,779 S2: worship the golden image that you've set up. Nebuchadnezzar asked 779 00:43:48,780 --> 00:43:51,580 S2: the question, what God can deliver you? And they gave 780 00:43:51,580 --> 00:43:55,299 S2: a clear answer The God we serve, can they also 781 00:43:55,300 --> 00:43:58,180 S2: express great confidence in their God? We believe he will 782 00:43:58,180 --> 00:44:01,300 S2: deliver us. But they weren't about to presume on God 783 00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:05,009 S2: because it was entirely possible God wouldn't choose to intervene 784 00:44:05,010 --> 00:44:07,770 S2: and spare their lives on that day. But that's when 785 00:44:07,770 --> 00:44:10,210 S2: they added, what to me is the most dramatic statement 786 00:44:10,210 --> 00:44:13,450 S2: of all. And even if God chooses not to deliver 787 00:44:13,450 --> 00:44:16,370 S2: us and we're forced to die a horrible death, we 788 00:44:16,410 --> 00:44:19,450 S2: still won't turn our backs on God to serve your 789 00:44:19,489 --> 00:44:22,890 S2: gods or worship the golden image. And the word that 790 00:44:22,890 --> 00:44:27,770 S2: characterizes this great confession is courage. It took great courage 791 00:44:27,770 --> 00:44:30,690 S2: for them to buck the crowd, stand up to a king, 792 00:44:30,850 --> 00:44:33,370 S2: and be willing to pay with their lives for that 793 00:44:33,370 --> 00:44:36,170 S2: which they knew to be true. Well, you know the 794 00:44:36,170 --> 00:44:39,009 S2: end of the story. They were thrown into a fiery furnace, 795 00:44:39,210 --> 00:44:43,450 S2: likely a brick kiln heated seven times hotter. Nebuchadnezzar told 796 00:44:43,450 --> 00:44:45,450 S2: the workers to heat the furnace as hot as it 797 00:44:45,450 --> 00:44:48,610 S2: would go. The heat was so intense that the ones 798 00:44:48,610 --> 00:44:52,009 S2: carrying the three men up to the entrance were themselves killed. 799 00:44:52,570 --> 00:44:55,810 S2: But inside the furnace, the three were still alive, walking 800 00:44:55,810 --> 00:44:58,730 S2: around with a fourth person who was like a son 801 00:44:58,730 --> 00:45:03,560 S2: of the gods. Was this the Pre-incarnate Jesus. It's possible. 802 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,880 S2: But it's also possible that God sent an angel. I 803 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,399 S2: don't think that people looking in from outside would have 804 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,640 S2: been able to tell the difference. Well, it's time to 805 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,960 S2: leave and head back home. But what lesson can we 806 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,640 S2: carry back with us from the great confession of Shadrach, Meshach, 807 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,600 S2: and Abednego? I think it's the lesson of courage. We 808 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,120 S2: live in a day that seems to be turning increasingly 809 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:31,080 S2: hostile toward God and His Word. Pressure is being put 810 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,919 S2: on Christians to conform, to compromise, to lower their voices 811 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,799 S2: and go along with the crowd. Most of us are 812 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:44,200 S2: not yet facing fiery furnaces, but we are facing opposition, ridicule, 813 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,960 S2: and prejudice. So do you have the courage necessary to 814 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,359 S2: take a stand for God? That's the lesson we need 815 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:57,800 S2: to learn from the great confession of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. 816 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,710 S1: The courage necessary. Boy, that's a great phrase. Thank you, Charlie, 817 00:46:01,710 --> 00:46:04,910 S1: for your story, for bringing it to life and for 818 00:46:04,910 --> 00:46:07,150 S1: taking us to it. You can hear it all again 819 00:46:07,150 --> 00:46:09,830 S1: when you check out our podcast at The Land and 820 00:46:09,830 --> 00:46:14,870 S1: the book The Land and the book.org. Hey, we'd love 821 00:46:14,870 --> 00:46:17,230 S1: to get your email. Love to know how the program 822 00:46:17,230 --> 00:46:20,589 S1: is encouraging you, helping you, challenging you, maybe growing you 823 00:46:20,590 --> 00:46:22,910 S1: and your understanding of the word and of the Middle 824 00:46:22,910 --> 00:46:25,470 S1: East and God's plan for that area. You can connect 825 00:46:25,469 --> 00:46:28,710 S1: with us anytime with an email to the land and 826 00:46:28,710 --> 00:46:34,110 S1: the book at Moody, the land and the book at Moody, 827 00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:38,029 S1: which is the same email address you used to get 828 00:46:38,030 --> 00:46:40,990 S1: your Bible question to us, the land and the book 829 00:46:41,150 --> 00:46:45,390 S1: at Moody. Well, thanks for hanging out with us today. 830 00:46:45,430 --> 00:46:48,550 S1: I'm John Gager for our host, Charlie Dyer, our producer, 831 00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:51,390 S1: Dan Anderson. The land and the book is a production 832 00:46:51,390 --> 00:46:54,950 S1: of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.