1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,080 S1: You did not want it. You did everything you could 2 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:13,039 S1: to avoid it. You didn't have the word in your vocabulary. 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,439 S1: But here you are, staring at the reality of an 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,560 S1: unwanted divorce. It might be in the near future. You 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,640 S1: might be separated right now. It might be in your 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,840 S1: recent past or the distant past. How do you move 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,560 S1: forward in this new normal, this new season? And what 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,599 S1: about those who are on the periphery? Do you know 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,360 S1: somebody who's going through a divorce? How do you help them? 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,320 S1: What do you say? What do you do? We'll talk 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,880 S1: with this about this deep topic today, with the hope 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:46,559 S1: that it will be a breath of fresh air to 13 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,839 S1: your soul. A little bit of comfort. That's our prayer today. 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,680 S1: Vanitha Reisner will join us. She's written about her own 15 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,640 S1: experience and I think her vulnerability is going to help. 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,319 S1: Let's get started on today's journey from the heart to 17 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,500 S1: the heart and for the heart. We call it Chris Fabry. 18 00:01:01,500 --> 00:01:03,900 S1: Live and helping out today at the radio backyard fence 19 00:01:03,940 --> 00:01:07,180 S1: is the team which includes Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. 20 00:01:07,180 --> 00:01:09,860 S1: Although Lisa is in the chair doing things technical, Trish 21 00:01:09,860 --> 00:01:13,700 S1: is our producer. Josh will be answering your calls. And 22 00:01:13,700 --> 00:01:16,699 S1: thanks to those of you who heard the conversation yesterday 23 00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:19,060 S1: and reached out to support the program. We had a 24 00:01:19,060 --> 00:01:24,020 S1: great response to our conversation about powerful self-talk from the Psalms, 25 00:01:24,300 --> 00:01:26,780 S1: and one of the comments that kind of propelled us 26 00:01:26,780 --> 00:01:30,339 S1: all day yesterday was a listener who wrote, I am 27 00:01:30,340 --> 00:01:34,100 S1: worthless because I am disabled, and many of you called 28 00:01:34,100 --> 00:01:37,060 S1: to respond to her. And I saw a comment on 29 00:01:37,060 --> 00:01:41,180 S1: Facebook that I hadn't seen, uh, a private message that 30 00:01:41,180 --> 00:01:45,179 S1: someone wrote that said, if that lady only knew how 31 00:01:45,220 --> 00:01:49,140 S1: many of us looking able are so much more disabled 32 00:01:49,140 --> 00:01:53,700 S1: than she is. And she said that to encourage. So yeah, 33 00:01:53,700 --> 00:01:56,540 S1: we're all in a struggle to silence the whispers of 34 00:01:56,540 --> 00:01:59,320 S1: our own hearts that speak lies about who we really 35 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,160 S1: are and how much God loves us. Even the topic 36 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,200 S1: today is kind of about that. So I want to 37 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,680 S1: say it again. If you did not hear the program 38 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,600 S1: and you need help with the negative thoughts that intrude. 39 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,640 S1: I'd love to send you a copy of Powerful Self-Talk 40 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,280 S1: from the Psalms. It's our thank you right now. If 41 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,079 S1: you support us with a gift of any size. Call 42 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:26,600 S1: or click through today 8669538669532279. Or you can just go 43 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:32,040 S1: to Chris fabry.org. Scroll down. You'll see it right there. FABRY, 44 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,760 S1: Chris Fabry live.org. And thanks for your support of the 45 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:41,320 S1: Radio Backyard Fence. Vanitha Reisner is passionate about helping others 46 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,360 S1: find hope and joy in the midst of suffering. Her 47 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,480 S1: story includes contracting polio as a child, losing an infant son, 48 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:56,040 S1: unexpectedly developing post-polio syndrome and then going through an unwanted divorce, 49 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,089 S1: all of which forced her to deal with issues of loss. 50 00:03:00,330 --> 00:03:03,730 S1: She and her husband, Joel, live in Raleigh, North Carolina. 51 00:03:03,770 --> 00:03:07,890 S1: They have four daughters between them and are. Featured. Resource 52 00:03:07,889 --> 00:03:12,330 S1: is the excellently titled and written book. This was never 53 00:03:12,330 --> 00:03:14,890 S1: the plan. How many of you have ever said that 54 00:03:14,889 --> 00:03:18,570 S1: about whatever's going on? This was never the plan. Walking 55 00:03:18,570 --> 00:03:22,770 S1: with God through the heartache of divorce. Just go to 56 00:03:22,770 --> 00:03:27,250 S1: Chris Fabry live.org. Vainika. Vanitha, welcome to the program. How 57 00:03:27,290 --> 00:03:28,130 S1: are you doing today? 58 00:03:28,410 --> 00:03:31,650 S2: I am doing well. Thank you so much for having me, Chris. 59 00:03:32,010 --> 00:03:35,210 S1: I pulled so many quotes from the book and just 60 00:03:35,210 --> 00:03:37,490 S1: pasted them into my document, and I'm going to read 61 00:03:37,490 --> 00:03:39,810 S1: some of them here today. But the one that got 62 00:03:39,810 --> 00:03:43,010 S1: me was you wrote, I woke up in a world 63 00:03:43,010 --> 00:03:46,290 S1: that looked the same, but now I wasn't sure how 64 00:03:46,290 --> 00:03:48,530 S1: to live in it. Talk about that. 65 00:03:49,170 --> 00:03:53,970 S2: Yeah, well, I remember the day after my ex-husband left. 66 00:03:53,970 --> 00:03:57,510 S2: I just realized, like, nothing is going to be the 67 00:03:57,510 --> 00:03:59,990 S2: same again. Like, and I didn't even know how to 68 00:03:59,990 --> 00:04:04,310 S2: move forward. Honestly, I stayed in bed for over a week. 69 00:04:04,350 --> 00:04:06,830 S2: I think it was maybe almost two weeks just because 70 00:04:06,830 --> 00:04:10,630 S2: I couldn't even figure out like, what do I do next? 71 00:04:10,670 --> 00:04:14,630 S2: Like it just was so overwhelming because it was so 72 00:04:14,630 --> 00:04:18,510 S2: surprising to me when he came home and said he 73 00:04:18,510 --> 00:04:21,349 S2: was in love with someone else, I had no idea. 74 00:04:21,790 --> 00:04:25,950 S2: And he moved out pretty soon after that, and I 75 00:04:26,550 --> 00:04:30,030 S2: was left kind of reeling. One like, how do I 76 00:04:30,029 --> 00:04:32,630 S2: move forward with the girls? How do I move forward 77 00:04:32,630 --> 00:04:35,390 S2: with anything? Who do I tell? Is he coming back? 78 00:04:35,750 --> 00:04:39,870 S2: Can I restore this? Where is God in this? Like 79 00:04:39,910 --> 00:04:42,590 S2: I thought I, I felt I had been faithful and 80 00:04:42,589 --> 00:04:46,070 S2: it just felt like there were so many questions and 81 00:04:46,070 --> 00:04:47,270 S2: no answers. 82 00:04:47,870 --> 00:04:50,549 S1: It's not supposed to be this way because you trusted 83 00:04:50,550 --> 00:04:53,430 S1: God and you prayed for your marriage and you took 84 00:04:53,430 --> 00:04:55,210 S1: divorce out of your. You know, you did all the 85 00:04:55,210 --> 00:04:59,529 S1: things that you're supposed to do. And then this happens. 86 00:04:59,570 --> 00:05:02,210 S1: It's how did you feel about God? Did you feel 87 00:05:02,210 --> 00:05:03,690 S1: like he had abandoned you? 88 00:05:04,529 --> 00:05:07,250 S2: Yeah, I did. And it's interesting because, you know, you 89 00:05:07,250 --> 00:05:10,130 S2: mentioned when you read my bio, I'd been through a 90 00:05:10,130 --> 00:05:14,210 S2: lot of other hard things. I had lost an infant son. Um, 91 00:05:14,250 --> 00:05:17,810 S2: have a debilitating disease, so I can kind of relate 92 00:05:17,810 --> 00:05:20,370 S2: to that. What that woman said, when you feel a 93 00:05:20,370 --> 00:05:24,050 S2: little bit worthless when you're helpless. But God had met 94 00:05:24,089 --> 00:05:26,529 S2: me in all of those things, but all of a sudden, 95 00:05:26,529 --> 00:05:30,849 S2: this felt personal, like those other things were not personal. 96 00:05:31,330 --> 00:05:35,010 S2: And so there was this idea like, God, what have 97 00:05:35,010 --> 00:05:38,730 S2: I done? There's this sense of blame as well as 98 00:05:38,730 --> 00:05:42,210 S2: the sense of I. I thought as a believer, you 99 00:05:42,210 --> 00:05:46,410 S2: would really protect me from what feels like a lot 100 00:05:46,410 --> 00:05:49,529 S2: of shame in the church, whereas the other things didn't 101 00:05:49,529 --> 00:05:54,390 S2: bring shame. They brought, you know, comfort and, a lot 102 00:05:54,390 --> 00:05:58,029 S2: of support and divorce does not do that. You are 103 00:05:58,710 --> 00:06:03,150 S2: often feeling shameful and alone. And so that's why I 104 00:06:03,150 --> 00:06:07,750 S2: felt like God. This, this feels even harder in some 105 00:06:07,750 --> 00:06:12,150 S2: ways because I don't know who to even lean on. 106 00:06:12,510 --> 00:06:15,630 S1: Yes. And your identity, it's, it's it's all wrapped up 107 00:06:15,630 --> 00:06:18,470 S1: in your identity and then your friends, you know, how 108 00:06:18,470 --> 00:06:20,830 S1: do your friends, you write about being in the grocery 109 00:06:20,830 --> 00:06:23,510 S1: store and seeing, seeing a neighbor and then kind of 110 00:06:23,550 --> 00:06:27,350 S1: hiding because you just couldn't go through the what do 111 00:06:27,350 --> 00:06:28,590 S1: you talk about? Right? 112 00:06:28,630 --> 00:06:32,830 S2: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was hard at, um, I 113 00:06:32,910 --> 00:06:35,789 S2: also wrote about like being at a party and then 114 00:06:35,830 --> 00:06:38,150 S2: not having told anybody for a long time and then 115 00:06:38,150 --> 00:06:42,630 S2: just finally saying, yeah, yeah, my husband left and this 116 00:06:42,630 --> 00:06:46,070 S2: person I was talking to just turned around like they 117 00:06:46,070 --> 00:06:49,470 S2: didn't know what to say. And I'm sure they just 118 00:06:49,470 --> 00:06:52,930 S2: felt awkward. And what's the follow up conversation to that 119 00:06:52,930 --> 00:06:56,729 S2: at a dinner party. Not much. I mean, actually it 120 00:06:56,730 --> 00:06:59,810 S2: was a big event. And so they just thought, okay, 121 00:06:59,850 --> 00:07:01,890 S2: I just kind of get out of this conversation. But 122 00:07:01,890 --> 00:07:06,090 S2: for me, it just deepened the you are alone, you 123 00:07:06,130 --> 00:07:08,450 S2: are being judged and no one cares. 124 00:07:09,250 --> 00:07:13,290 S1: And there's also this fight or flight thing that you 125 00:07:13,290 --> 00:07:16,130 S1: have that I noticed when you went to the doctor's 126 00:07:16,130 --> 00:07:18,850 S1: office and you had to fill out the form, and 127 00:07:18,850 --> 00:07:22,970 S1: for the first time you put either separated or divorced 128 00:07:22,970 --> 00:07:26,050 S1: or whatever it was. And the doctor came in and 129 00:07:26,050 --> 00:07:30,410 S1: was looking at. I chuckle at it because. But this 130 00:07:30,410 --> 00:07:34,970 S1: shows the mindset. Tell people what you said to the doctor. 131 00:07:35,610 --> 00:07:38,370 S2: Yeah. So this was right after my divorce, so I 132 00:07:38,370 --> 00:07:41,850 S2: hadn't checked any other boxes when I was still married. 133 00:07:41,850 --> 00:07:44,730 S2: But the week after my divorce, I had hurt my back, 134 00:07:44,770 --> 00:07:47,530 S2: went to a new doctor, and it took me a 135 00:07:47,570 --> 00:07:50,530 S2: long time to even check that box. But when I did, 136 00:07:50,630 --> 00:07:54,070 S2: he walked in with my chart and he's looking at 137 00:07:54,070 --> 00:07:57,110 S2: it and he's kind of staring at it. And I mean, 138 00:07:57,310 --> 00:08:00,550 S2: my first response was he's wondering why? Why is she divorced? 139 00:08:00,590 --> 00:08:03,910 S2: What's what's happened here? So I jumped into the first 140 00:08:03,910 --> 00:08:06,670 S2: thing I said to him is, I believe in marriage. 141 00:08:06,790 --> 00:08:09,150 S2: Marriage is really important to me. I did not want 142 00:08:09,150 --> 00:08:12,310 S2: this to happen. And he looked at me and he said, um, 143 00:08:12,350 --> 00:08:15,270 S2: I'm just looking at your chart to see where your 144 00:08:15,270 --> 00:08:19,070 S2: back hurts. And I realized like, he did not care 145 00:08:19,070 --> 00:08:21,510 S2: about this, but it was all I could think about. 146 00:08:21,550 --> 00:08:24,790 S2: And it was kind of indicative that I thought this 147 00:08:24,790 --> 00:08:29,190 S2: was on everybody's mind. Right. And I love what you said. 148 00:08:29,190 --> 00:08:29,790 S2: It wasn't. 149 00:08:29,990 --> 00:08:33,870 S1: You wrote. Maybe you two have found yourself explaining your 150 00:08:33,870 --> 00:08:37,510 S1: divorce to people who weren't even asking, justifying your story, 151 00:08:37,710 --> 00:08:40,430 S1: proving your worth. And that goes back to the whole 152 00:08:40,429 --> 00:08:44,070 S1: identity thing is, am I, am I worth anything as 153 00:08:44,070 --> 00:08:48,150 S1: a as a divorced person? I'm single now. Uh, and 154 00:08:48,150 --> 00:08:50,840 S1: you're making sure that they know that you're not that 155 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,640 S1: kind of divorced person. It's exhausting. So not only do 156 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,600 S1: you have to deal with, okay, financially, what are we 157 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,439 S1: going to do? The divorce proceeding. You know, the legal 158 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,559 S1: that just that's a whole program right there. But then 159 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:12,920 S1: the internal wave that is constantly crashing on your shore 160 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:18,040 S1: that you have to stand up from day after day. Right? 161 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,560 S2: Yeah. I mean, it kind of reminds me that we 162 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,920 S2: all want to blame someone, or we want to know 163 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,839 S2: whose fault it is. Like we think about that with 164 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:27,800 S2: the car accident, the minute somebody says, I was in 165 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,520 S2: a car accident, your first thing is, whose fault was it? 166 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,920 S2: Was it your fault? Was it their fault? And I 167 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,480 S2: think that's the first thing people think with divorce. Like, 168 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,880 S2: did you want this? Was this your fault? Was it 169 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,520 S2: their fault? And, you know, people may not ask it 170 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,480 S2: that way, but you recognize or maybe you feel like 171 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,700 S2: that's the question behind it. So I kept trying to 172 00:09:49,700 --> 00:09:53,179 S2: jump in front of it like I didn't believe in divorce. Um, 173 00:09:53,220 --> 00:09:56,380 S2: because I felt like it really changed what they thought 174 00:09:56,380 --> 00:09:58,740 S2: about who I was as a person. 175 00:09:58,780 --> 00:10:04,300 S1: Yes. And then the natural, uh, transition here then is 176 00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:07,380 S1: to ask, so how'd the church do? What did the 177 00:10:07,380 --> 00:10:10,420 S1: church do? Because there's a statistic that you give in 178 00:10:10,420 --> 00:10:14,500 S1: the book that kind of blew me away. Nearly 47% 179 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:18,420 S1: of those who divorce leave their congregation, and many struggle 180 00:10:18,460 --> 00:10:21,140 S1: to find a new church. They feel able to settle in. 181 00:10:21,380 --> 00:10:23,660 S1: So I want to talk with you about that and 182 00:10:23,660 --> 00:10:26,980 S1: a whole lot more today at the Radio Backyard Fence. 183 00:10:27,020 --> 00:10:31,340 S1: Vanitha Reisner has written such an excellent book, a very 184 00:10:31,340 --> 00:10:35,340 S1: comforting and an eye opening book for those who are 185 00:10:35,940 --> 00:10:39,579 S1: friends of of people or family members of those who 186 00:10:39,580 --> 00:10:43,220 S1: have been recently divorced, that will walk you right through 187 00:10:43,220 --> 00:10:46,420 S1: about how you can be an agent of change and help. 188 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,080 S1: The title is This Was Never the Plan. Walking with 189 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,480 S1: God Through the Heartache of Divorce. It's our featured resource 190 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:59,360 S1: at Chris fabry.org. Chris fabry.org. Of course, I'm going to 191 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,400 S1: open the phone lines. If you have a question or 192 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:09,960 S1: a comment. If something resonates with you, the number is (877) 548-3675. 193 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:24,720 S1: More straight ahead on Moody Radio. Benita Reisner is our 194 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,840 S1: guest today at the Radio Backyard Fence. This was never 195 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,439 S1: the plan as our featured resource. Walking with God through 196 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,360 S1: the heartache of divorce. And if you go to the 197 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,040 S1: website Chris fabry.org, you'll see a link to that right there. 198 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,880 S1: I want to talk Vinitha about the church, and let 199 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,120 S1: me set that up by this quote again from your book. 200 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,820 S1: You say divorced people don't get the same support as 201 00:11:47,820 --> 00:11:50,900 S1: those who have been widowed. A friend once told me 202 00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:53,700 S1: about two women in her neighborhood, both in their 30s, 203 00:11:53,740 --> 00:11:57,660 S1: both pregnant. One was widowed when her husband died of cancer. 204 00:11:57,980 --> 00:12:00,420 S1: The other was abandoned when her husband left her for 205 00:12:00,420 --> 00:12:04,420 S1: someone else. The first woman was showered with meals, child care, 206 00:12:04,420 --> 00:12:07,579 S1: financial support, and a community that showed up for her. 207 00:12:07,820 --> 00:12:11,700 S1: The second woman, she got awkward silence, pitying, looks at 208 00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:16,300 S1: the grocery store and then nothing. Now, my question to 209 00:12:16,340 --> 00:12:21,300 S1: you is, is there any difference in that scenario between 210 00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:24,780 S1: what happened in that community and what often happens in 211 00:12:24,780 --> 00:12:25,500 S1: the church? 212 00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:29,339 S2: Yeah, that's a great question, Chris. I don't think there's 213 00:12:29,340 --> 00:12:34,420 S2: any difference. And that's what's hard is I think people 214 00:12:34,420 --> 00:12:39,380 S2: in the church come around something that they fully understand. 215 00:12:39,380 --> 00:12:43,820 S2: And I think with divorce, there's some questions sometimes. And 216 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,200 S2: so people don't know what to do. And the other 217 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,160 S2: thing is divorce is not on the prayer chain like 218 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,160 S2: nobody says so. And so just got their divorce decree. 219 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,040 S2: Let's put, you know, send them meals and reach out 220 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,000 S2: to their kids. Whereas that's what's said if somebody loses 221 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,960 S2: a spouse. And I was talking to a friend of 222 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,120 S2: mine who went through a divorce and she said she 223 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:10,240 S2: went on a women's retreat the same weekend that another 224 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,840 S2: friend of hers who'd lost her husband was there. And 225 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,400 S2: she said the difference was so remarkable. Like everybody was 226 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,319 S2: like going up to the woman who'd lost her husband, like, 227 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,000 S2: what can we do? I mean, the pastor's wife was 228 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,560 S2: like putting her arms around her during the singing. Like 229 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,280 S2: everybody was like, this is so hard. How, what can 230 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,120 S2: we do? And this friend was like, just by herself. 231 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,480 S2: Like nobody even reached out to her at all. And 232 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,320 S2: not that my church was supportive, but I didn't get 233 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,329 S2: the kind of support that people do when they lose 234 00:13:45,330 --> 00:13:49,130 S2: a spouse, when the whole church kind of rallies around. 235 00:13:49,170 --> 00:13:52,090 S2: I mean, I had I had lots of questions about me. 236 00:13:52,090 --> 00:13:55,650 S2: I was teaching women's Bible study. And rather than supporting me, 237 00:13:55,650 --> 00:13:59,530 S2: there were people that said, hey, since your husband left, 238 00:13:59,809 --> 00:14:03,250 S2: maybe there's some secret sin in your life. So they 239 00:14:03,250 --> 00:14:05,890 S2: actually went to our pastor and said, do you think 240 00:14:05,890 --> 00:14:10,330 S2: she should be qualified to still teach? And that doesn't 241 00:14:10,330 --> 00:14:14,130 S2: happen when somebody is widowed. People are just like, wow, 242 00:14:14,170 --> 00:14:17,690 S2: you're teaching. You've been through all this. And so there 243 00:14:17,690 --> 00:14:22,090 S2: really is quite a difference in our minds between, uh, 244 00:14:22,410 --> 00:14:23,970 S2: divorce and death. 245 00:14:24,450 --> 00:14:29,770 S1: Why do 47%, if the statistic is right, leave their 246 00:14:29,770 --> 00:14:31,770 S1: congregation after divorce? 247 00:14:33,370 --> 00:14:36,370 S2: I think there's a few reasons. One is the shame 248 00:14:36,370 --> 00:14:39,970 S2: and the judgment that we talked about. And two, I 249 00:14:39,970 --> 00:14:45,350 S2: think people feel really lonely. And I get that people 250 00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:47,790 S2: in the church don't know what to do. Often they 251 00:14:47,790 --> 00:14:50,990 S2: they really don't. But I think that kind of adds 252 00:14:50,990 --> 00:14:54,270 S2: to the loneliness. And often people like the world is 253 00:14:54,270 --> 00:14:58,710 S2: more supportive. And I have had several friends say, you know, 254 00:14:58,750 --> 00:15:01,470 S2: through my divorce, it was my neighbors that showed up 255 00:15:01,470 --> 00:15:04,870 S2: for me. And so they sort of drift from the church. 256 00:15:04,870 --> 00:15:06,750 S2: Or maybe they want to just go to a different 257 00:15:06,750 --> 00:15:11,270 S2: church hoping that is going to look different because they 258 00:15:11,270 --> 00:15:15,150 S2: feel like this. This hasn't been what I hoped for. 259 00:15:15,150 --> 00:15:17,150 S2: And I mean, it was funny, I was sitting beside 260 00:15:17,150 --> 00:15:19,710 S2: a woman in church just a few months ago, and 261 00:15:19,710 --> 00:15:21,990 S2: I told her about the book and she whispered, I 262 00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:25,070 S2: haven't told anybody in this church, but I was divorced 263 00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:29,670 S2: many years ago and people just don't want to talk 264 00:15:29,670 --> 00:15:34,630 S2: about it. And she went through major abuse. But she said, 265 00:15:34,630 --> 00:15:38,150 S2: people don't understand. So I just keep that story to myself. 266 00:15:38,150 --> 00:15:42,210 S2: And she was remarried And she said, nobody knows, because 267 00:15:42,530 --> 00:15:44,570 S2: I don't think they would take it. Well. 268 00:15:45,530 --> 00:15:49,370 S1: Isn't that, uh, isn't that what shame will do to 269 00:15:49,410 --> 00:15:53,810 S1: you or isolate all the programs that we've had this 270 00:15:53,850 --> 00:15:57,890 S1: talked about this week have had something to do with 271 00:15:57,890 --> 00:16:03,690 S1: shame and isolation. And the enemy whispering to you, you know, 272 00:16:03,730 --> 00:16:07,330 S1: don't share that with anybody else. Because when you are 273 00:16:07,330 --> 00:16:10,090 S1: all alone with that, then he has a field day 274 00:16:10,090 --> 00:16:13,450 S1: with with all of those things that are swirling inside, right? 275 00:16:14,010 --> 00:16:18,170 S2: Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting because shame is often not 276 00:16:18,290 --> 00:16:22,170 S2: because of what you've done, but what's been done to you. 277 00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:25,650 S2: And that's just the interesting thing. I have that quote 278 00:16:25,730 --> 00:16:27,850 S2: somewhere in the book editor Welch said that and I thought, 279 00:16:27,850 --> 00:16:30,930 S2: that is so true. I mean, certainly we can be 280 00:16:30,930 --> 00:16:34,250 S2: ashamed of what we've done, but often we are ashamed 281 00:16:34,250 --> 00:16:37,250 S2: of what's been done to us or what's happened to us. 282 00:16:37,890 --> 00:16:42,390 S2: And we can't really put words to that, but we 283 00:16:42,390 --> 00:16:42,950 S2: feel it. 284 00:16:44,990 --> 00:16:48,350 S1: Okay. There's a throughout the book, one of the really 285 00:16:48,350 --> 00:16:51,990 S1: powerful parts of it is the the journal entries. Do 286 00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:55,430 S1: you suggest that anybody going through a divorce keep a journal? 287 00:16:56,270 --> 00:17:01,470 S2: Yes. I am a massive journaling fan, Chris, but because one, 288 00:17:01,470 --> 00:17:04,550 S2: I think it's the best form of therapy. Like you 289 00:17:04,550 --> 00:17:07,910 S2: pour out everything you feel and then you can look 290 00:17:07,910 --> 00:17:09,910 S2: back and say, oh, that's what I was thinking. That's 291 00:17:09,910 --> 00:17:11,830 S2: what I was feeling. Or even in the day that 292 00:17:11,830 --> 00:17:16,110 S2: you write it, it helps process what's happening. And I mean, 293 00:17:16,150 --> 00:17:19,510 S2: divorce is lonely for every single person I've ever talked to, 294 00:17:19,750 --> 00:17:22,630 S2: because there's nobody that wants to hear every single detail 295 00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:25,909 S2: and every single emotion unless they really have nothing happening 296 00:17:25,910 --> 00:17:29,710 S2: in their life. But God does. And we can pour 297 00:17:29,710 --> 00:17:32,670 S2: out our words in a journal and look back, see 298 00:17:32,710 --> 00:17:38,210 S2: God's faithfulness. Also see maybe what thinking is not correct. 299 00:17:38,250 --> 00:17:41,129 S2: Like when we say, you know, everybody hates me. I've 300 00:17:41,130 --> 00:17:43,610 S2: never had any friends in the church. You might think that, 301 00:17:43,890 --> 00:17:46,370 S2: but when you sit down and read it, you think, okay, 302 00:17:46,410 --> 00:17:49,610 S2: what is truth? And so when we put the lies 303 00:17:49,609 --> 00:17:53,810 S2: that we're believing down on paper, sometimes we can counter 304 00:17:53,810 --> 00:17:57,290 S2: that with truth. Whereas if we keep them in our head, 305 00:17:57,650 --> 00:18:00,129 S2: I don't know if we can counter them the same way. 306 00:18:00,290 --> 00:18:03,290 S1: Yes. Okay. Let me read this. This is from a 307 00:18:03,290 --> 00:18:06,330 S1: journal entry. At some point in the process, the words 308 00:18:06,330 --> 00:18:09,090 S1: are what sting. They come back to me when I 309 00:18:09,130 --> 00:18:12,050 S1: close my eyes, and even when I try to push 310 00:18:12,050 --> 00:18:15,889 S1: them away, they hiss. You don't count. You're not good enough, 311 00:18:16,050 --> 00:18:18,850 S1: and you don't matter enough for me to ease your pain. 312 00:18:19,050 --> 00:18:21,490 S1: I may have betrayed you and lied to you and 313 00:18:21,490 --> 00:18:25,530 S1: abandoned you, but that's not all. What was going through 314 00:18:25,570 --> 00:18:26,570 S1: your heart then? 315 00:18:28,810 --> 00:18:33,770 S2: Ah. I've wanted my, um, my husband at the time 316 00:18:33,970 --> 00:18:37,140 S2: to really feel my pain, like I am so sorry 317 00:18:37,140 --> 00:18:39,020 S2: I've done this to you. You were a great wife. 318 00:18:39,060 --> 00:18:41,780 S2: You know all of those things. But that's not how 319 00:18:41,780 --> 00:18:45,460 S2: it felt. It felt like this is your problem. Like you, 320 00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:48,540 S2: I was gutting it out. This. This was a hard marriage, 321 00:18:48,540 --> 00:18:50,580 S2: and I never told you. But now I find somebody 322 00:18:50,580 --> 00:18:53,899 S2: else who brings me delight. And, you know, he didn't 323 00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:57,580 S2: say all of those words that I wrote, but that 324 00:18:57,580 --> 00:19:01,220 S2: was the feeling I got. There was not a lot of, wow, 325 00:19:01,260 --> 00:19:04,300 S2: I you were a great wife. There was more like, 326 00:19:04,340 --> 00:19:09,020 S2: you just aren't worth it. And that's really what I 327 00:19:09,020 --> 00:19:12,419 S2: took away, honestly, for a long time. Like, you're not enough. 328 00:19:12,460 --> 00:19:16,220 S2: You're not worth it. There is something wrong with you. 329 00:19:16,660 --> 00:19:20,180 S2: So don't take any comfort that you know, you were 330 00:19:20,180 --> 00:19:24,500 S2: great and I just strayed. It's it's you. If you 331 00:19:24,540 --> 00:19:25,979 S2: were better, I wouldn't have done that. 332 00:19:26,020 --> 00:19:29,659 S1: Did you internalize that then and think, well, maybe it 333 00:19:29,660 --> 00:19:32,300 S1: was me, maybe I did. If I had done this, 334 00:19:32,340 --> 00:19:34,580 S1: if I had done that, if or if I had 335 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,720 S1: seen the warning signs because he was doing things for, 336 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,560 S1: I think, something like a year. 337 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:42,600 S2: Yes. 338 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,040 S1: In the marriage, if I had just seen this and 339 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,760 S1: called him out and then we could have. Did that 340 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:49,720 S1: go through your mind? 341 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,240 S2: Oh, every single one of those things. I mean, there 342 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,720 S2: was the I, I'm not enough, you know, you know, 343 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,560 S2: you look in the mirror and you think, oh, do 344 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,920 S2: I not look as good? You think about what you're 345 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,160 S2: involved in or am I funny enough? AM I? You know, 346 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,480 S2: just everything about yourself. And then the. Why didn't I 347 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,120 S2: see the signs? And a lot of people asked me that, 348 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,840 S2: which was kind of humiliating, but I understand it. They 349 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,560 S2: were like, well, you had to know something, right? I mean, 350 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,119 S2: that couldn't have happened for that long. And you didn't 351 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,880 S2: suspect anything. So you feel really dumb that you didn't 352 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,800 S2: see it earlier, that you didn't, like, raise the, um, 353 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,440 S2: raise the red flag or, you know, raise the fact 354 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,179 S2: that there is something going on and you feel like 355 00:20:35,220 --> 00:20:39,260 S2: if I had done something differently, this would be different. 356 00:20:39,260 --> 00:20:42,500 S2: You just I kept replaying that it was either who 357 00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:46,060 S2: I was that wasn't enough or what I did that 358 00:20:46,060 --> 00:20:50,580 S2: wasn't enough. And I, it took me quite a while. 359 00:20:50,619 --> 00:20:54,420 S2: Like I lived in those spirals for a while. And 360 00:20:54,420 --> 00:20:57,020 S2: I look back at my journals and realize there was 361 00:20:57,020 --> 00:21:01,820 S2: a lot of negative self-talk for a while. Um, I mean, 362 00:21:01,859 --> 00:21:06,900 S2: months and months of just looking back at conversations, things 363 00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:09,340 S2: that I did wondering, was this my fault? 364 00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:14,380 S1: Yes. So the, the emotions then that come at this 365 00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:18,820 S1: place and the book goes is the warp and woof 366 00:21:18,859 --> 00:21:23,139 S1: of vanitas life. This was never the plan as the title. 367 00:21:23,540 --> 00:21:28,260 S1: And it goes into such detail about different steps in 368 00:21:28,260 --> 00:21:30,860 S1: the process. But I want to focus here today on 369 00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:36,560 S1: on where you were at the time when the divorce was. Well, 370 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,000 S1: it was it was something like years before between the 371 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,520 S1: separation and the actual divorce. Right? 372 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,520 S2: Yes. It was three years. 373 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,560 S1: Three years. Okay. Did you feel like in that time, 374 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,240 S1: if you prayed hard enough that God's going to turn 375 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,439 S1: him around and you're going to be reconciled? 376 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,359 S2: Yes, that is exactly what I thought, Chris. I felt 377 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,399 S2: like God has got to do this because I felt 378 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,520 S2: like this was the only thing that could glorify God, 379 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,760 S2: was to have a marriage that was put back together, 380 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,160 S2: you know, and, and even now, like, you know, marriages 381 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,800 S2: that work through infidelity and there's forgiveness. Those are on 382 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,359 S2: the front page of Christian everything, you know, like, don't 383 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,040 S2: give up on your marriage and the ones that, you know, 384 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,560 S2: end in divorce. Those don't get any press because it's 385 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,480 S2: like you failed. And I was one of those people 386 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,159 S2: that was like, I don't want to fail. And I 387 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,220 S2: don't want to feel ashamed. So I kept saying, God, 388 00:22:34,220 --> 00:22:36,460 S2: I know you can raise the dead. And I would 389 00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:39,780 S2: pray that all the time. But I realized, of course, 390 00:22:39,780 --> 00:22:43,180 S2: I was trusting in an outcome and not in God. 391 00:22:43,460 --> 00:22:45,780 S2: So for three years I was just holding on to 392 00:22:45,820 --> 00:22:49,780 S2: that until he actually finally said he wanted to file. 393 00:22:49,780 --> 00:22:53,180 S2: And I agreed to it. And we had been separated, 394 00:22:53,220 --> 00:22:56,780 S2: like not living in the same home for over three years. 395 00:22:56,780 --> 00:23:01,180 S2: But I, I just didn't want to let go. And 396 00:23:01,180 --> 00:23:03,660 S2: that was a lot of pain during those three years 397 00:23:03,660 --> 00:23:05,660 S2: because he was, and I say it in the book, 398 00:23:05,660 --> 00:23:10,500 S2: he was living with someone else. So I and my 399 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:14,620 S2: pastor actually came up to me and he said, the 400 00:23:14,619 --> 00:23:16,859 S2: elders and I have met and I just want to 401 00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:19,540 S2: find out from you. Like, do you feel you can't 402 00:23:19,540 --> 00:23:22,780 S2: file for divorce? Which was really comforting. Like he said, 403 00:23:22,780 --> 00:23:27,020 S2: we're behind you. Like we know this situation. And, um, 404 00:23:27,020 --> 00:23:30,320 S2: but I still wanted to wait because I didn't want 405 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,520 S2: to be the one that looked like I couldn't make 406 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,040 S2: it work, or I wasn't willing to make it work. 407 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,520 S1: And I totally, totally get that. And yet I look at, 408 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:47,000 S1: you know, where you were with your daughters and trying 409 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,600 S1: to live. You know, I think you were home schooling 410 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:51,400 S1: at the time, right? 411 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,080 S2: Yes, yes, I was home schooling for I say it 412 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,480 S2: was it was two years after he left. I homeschooled 413 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,320 S2: and then I put him in school the third year, 414 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,879 S2: but before we got divorced. Um, but yeah, I, it 415 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,600 S2: was that was really grueling to do that. 416 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,920 S1: But there were ways that you see, and that can 417 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,600 S1: be dysfunctional too. It's like you can lean on your 418 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,159 S1: daughters and you can let them, uh, you know, fill 419 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,040 S1: in the missing places and do all of that. And, 420 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,880 S1: you know, if that happens, that happens, you can deal 421 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,720 S1: with it. But it sounds like you really tried hard 422 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:32,330 S1: to not put that on them and his actions on them. 423 00:24:32,930 --> 00:24:37,129 S2: Right. I really I did not want this to, uh, 424 00:24:37,170 --> 00:24:40,649 S2: cloud their view of men. I did not want this to, 425 00:24:40,690 --> 00:24:43,010 S2: you know, cloud their view of God, although, you know, 426 00:24:43,050 --> 00:24:46,890 S2: you can't help how people feel. And so for a time, 427 00:24:46,890 --> 00:24:49,850 S2: they both really. One walked away from faith. One had 428 00:24:49,850 --> 00:24:52,290 S2: never come to faith and was. They were both very 429 00:24:52,330 --> 00:24:55,730 S2: angry at God. But I also didn't want to put 430 00:24:55,730 --> 00:24:59,570 S2: all my emotions on them because when my husband left, 431 00:24:59,570 --> 00:25:02,410 S2: a friend of mine, um, had coffee with me and 432 00:25:02,410 --> 00:25:06,090 S2: she said, you know, my dad left my mom. This 433 00:25:06,090 --> 00:25:09,730 S2: was decades before. And she said, my mom made me 434 00:25:09,770 --> 00:25:14,169 S2: her confidant. So she would. And even when she suspected 435 00:25:14,170 --> 00:25:16,090 S2: my dad was having an affair, she'd be like, do 436 00:25:16,090 --> 00:25:19,090 S2: you do you smell perfume on this shirt? Do you 437 00:25:19,130 --> 00:25:22,170 S2: can you find out what your dad did? And she said, 438 00:25:22,410 --> 00:25:24,890 S2: that was such a heavy burden on her. 439 00:25:25,730 --> 00:25:26,610 S1: And she. 440 00:25:26,609 --> 00:25:27,010 S2: Said. 441 00:25:27,550 --> 00:25:29,390 S1: In the middle of all that. Okay, let me jump 442 00:25:29,390 --> 00:25:31,150 S1: in here. I want to come back to this this 443 00:25:31,150 --> 00:25:33,790 S1: point right here because it's a really important one from 444 00:25:34,109 --> 00:25:38,790 S1: Vanitha Reisner. This was never the plan. Walking with God 445 00:25:38,790 --> 00:25:42,550 S1: through the heartache of divorce. It's our featured resource today. 446 00:25:42,670 --> 00:25:48,709 S1: Chris Fabry live.org. Chris Fabry live.org. What is her story 447 00:25:48,869 --> 00:25:52,550 S1: have to do with Miss Havisham from Great Expectations? Find 448 00:25:52,550 --> 00:25:53,790 S1: out straight ahead. 449 00:26:05,790 --> 00:26:06,669 S3: This is Chris Fabry. 450 00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:10,550 S1: Live on Moody Radio. Beneatha Reisner is our guest. Her 451 00:26:10,550 --> 00:26:14,630 S1: book is a really good book. It's a really redemptive 452 00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:18,830 S1: story of her own life and how she dealt with 453 00:26:18,869 --> 00:26:23,790 S1: an unwanted divorce. This was never the Plan is the title. 454 00:26:23,790 --> 00:26:28,570 S1: Remember that walking with God through the heartache of divorce. 455 00:26:28,570 --> 00:26:32,250 S1: And there are so many great chapters in the process. 456 00:26:32,490 --> 00:26:35,449 S1: Toward the end of the book, there is a section, 457 00:26:35,450 --> 00:26:37,410 S1: and we've got to get to this before we end here. 458 00:26:37,450 --> 00:26:41,210 S1: Vanitha today how to show up when a friend's marriage ends. 459 00:26:41,609 --> 00:26:43,690 S1: So I want to deal with that. But you were 460 00:26:43,690 --> 00:26:46,130 S1: in the middle of telling us how you kept from 461 00:26:46,170 --> 00:26:50,570 S1: putting your daughters in the middle of your and your 462 00:26:50,570 --> 00:26:55,850 S1: husband's divorce, separation and then divorce and how important that is. 463 00:26:55,890 --> 00:26:57,370 S1: Talk a little bit more about that. 464 00:26:58,010 --> 00:27:01,850 S2: Yeah. Well, because my friend had said it had really 465 00:27:01,850 --> 00:27:05,770 S2: damaged her relationship with her father, and she couldn't really 466 00:27:05,770 --> 00:27:08,810 S2: ever get past that, like she was the middle person. 467 00:27:09,290 --> 00:27:11,610 S2: I did not want to do that. And she said 468 00:27:11,609 --> 00:27:14,810 S2: she never felt like she got to even grieve or 469 00:27:14,810 --> 00:27:18,490 S2: have a childhood because she was always the support person 470 00:27:18,490 --> 00:27:21,410 S2: for her mom. So I didn't want to do that. 471 00:27:21,410 --> 00:27:24,210 S2: And ironically, though, my kids, I don't think would have 472 00:27:24,210 --> 00:27:29,270 S2: done that. My kids both were very angry and hurt, 473 00:27:29,270 --> 00:27:31,270 S2: and it was really hard for both of them, which 474 00:27:31,270 --> 00:27:34,510 S2: I understand, but they weren't the kids who were just 475 00:27:34,510 --> 00:27:38,430 S2: trying to, you know, be super obedient and make my 476 00:27:38,430 --> 00:27:41,389 S2: life easier. We kind of joke that they, they did 477 00:27:41,390 --> 00:27:44,910 S2: not do that at all. And, um, and that, that, 478 00:27:44,950 --> 00:27:48,830 S2: that had its own things, but it was really, um, 479 00:27:49,510 --> 00:27:53,469 S2: good for me to recognize I needed to go to God. 480 00:27:53,470 --> 00:27:55,990 S2: I could not go to them. And I, I couldn't 481 00:27:55,990 --> 00:27:58,590 S2: even tell them the whole story. Like I did not 482 00:27:58,590 --> 00:28:01,990 S2: tell them the whole story of all that had happened 483 00:28:01,990 --> 00:28:05,750 S2: until many, many years after our divorce, till they were 484 00:28:05,750 --> 00:28:09,950 S2: both pretty much adults. Um, and I had the sign 485 00:28:09,950 --> 00:28:12,910 S2: on my bulletin board, Chris, that I would say when 486 00:28:12,910 --> 00:28:14,790 S2: I went to church and when I talked to my 487 00:28:14,790 --> 00:28:17,550 S2: kids and everybody was like, well, you should be doing this. 488 00:28:18,030 --> 00:28:20,389 S2: It was faith is trusting God to set the record 489 00:28:20,390 --> 00:28:24,130 S2: straight because you can't set it straight. Everybody can't know 490 00:28:24,130 --> 00:28:27,170 S2: all the details. And so you need to be willing 491 00:28:27,210 --> 00:28:30,010 S2: to look like the bad guy. And I was looking 492 00:28:30,010 --> 00:28:33,490 S2: like the bad guy to my kids sometimes, um, because 493 00:28:33,490 --> 00:28:37,130 S2: my ex husband didn't always tell them the full situation. 494 00:28:37,490 --> 00:28:40,490 S2: Like when he moved out, he first just said, hey, 495 00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:43,970 S2: your mom wants me to leave. But he didn't mention 496 00:28:43,970 --> 00:28:47,690 S2: that he was living with someone else. And I, I 497 00:28:47,810 --> 00:28:50,770 S2: felt like he needed to tell them that and not me. 498 00:28:50,810 --> 00:28:53,090 S2: And so there was a lot of times when I 499 00:28:53,090 --> 00:28:57,290 S2: had to bite my tongue and say, okay, I need 500 00:28:57,410 --> 00:29:01,530 S2: to not start talking about things that I want them 501 00:29:01,530 --> 00:29:04,130 S2: to hear it from them so they'll trust me rather 502 00:29:04,130 --> 00:29:06,650 S2: than me just telling all that I know. 503 00:29:08,530 --> 00:29:16,290 S1: And that is really hard. That takes courage, that takes strength, backbone, and, uh, 504 00:29:16,290 --> 00:29:19,770 S1: probably some tears in the pillow at night, you know? 505 00:29:19,810 --> 00:29:20,210 S2: Yes. 506 00:29:20,250 --> 00:29:20,570 S1: Oh. 507 00:29:21,050 --> 00:29:24,740 S2: A lot of tears. Just if you know, just if 508 00:29:24,780 --> 00:29:29,180 S2: you only knew what I am dealing with. But the 509 00:29:29,220 --> 00:29:34,380 S2: great thing about that was later on I said something 510 00:29:34,660 --> 00:29:37,940 S2: not about their dad, but, um, one of my daughters said, 511 00:29:38,620 --> 00:29:42,300 S2: I have always believed you about the divorce because you 512 00:29:42,340 --> 00:29:46,980 S2: never said anything negative about dad. And she said he 513 00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:49,300 S2: would say negative things about you. Well, you know, your 514 00:29:49,300 --> 00:29:52,740 S2: mom is like that. And she said you never did. 515 00:29:52,780 --> 00:29:55,700 S2: And that shocked me because I don't remember never saying that. 516 00:29:55,820 --> 00:29:58,900 S2: But they said that made one of my daughters said 517 00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:02,180 S2: that made me trust you because you weren't trying to 518 00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:04,620 S2: get me on your side. You were just trying to 519 00:30:04,660 --> 00:30:05,540 S2: walk this. Well. 520 00:30:06,340 --> 00:30:09,900 S1: One of your daughters was doing a, an art project 521 00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:15,780 S1: and trying to replicate this famous painting, uh, the wave painting. 522 00:30:15,980 --> 00:30:18,860 S1: And she said something to you. Tell tell us about that. 523 00:30:19,380 --> 00:30:22,960 S2: Yeah, well, she had brought this art project home and 524 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,120 S2: she doesn't like art. I love art, so I was 525 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,480 S2: trying to show her how to, um, how to do 526 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,400 S2: it's the Great Wave of Kanagawa, I think is how 527 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,800 S2: you say it. And um, it's by an artist named Hokusai. 528 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,840 S2: And I was showing her how to draw the wave 529 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,240 S2: and I said, you know, you first need to put 530 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,400 S2: the big picture in and then you need to just 531 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,000 S2: keep paying attention. You need to, you know, look at 532 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,239 S2: the way the artist did things and imitate what a 533 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:53,640 S2: great artist does. And she said, you are my Hokusai. 534 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,720 S2: You are the person I look at and want to imitate. 535 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:01,200 S2: And that was incredible. And I mean, the backdrop of 536 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,560 S2: that was not we were not in a good place. 537 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,080 S2: I mean, I probably around that time had poured a 538 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,840 S2: full glass of ice water on my daughter for mouthing 539 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,320 S2: off at me. So I, I definitely was not in 540 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,479 S2: this like, wonderful place when I heard those words, but 541 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,640 S2: I have hung on to those words for so many years, 542 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,460 S2: and I have a big poster in the room where 543 00:31:20,460 --> 00:31:24,060 S2: I read my Bible that has that that print. Because 544 00:31:24,060 --> 00:31:27,219 S2: I want to remember, like, what we see now isn't 545 00:31:27,220 --> 00:31:29,860 S2: the end of the story. And, you know. That daughter 546 00:31:29,860 --> 00:31:32,820 S2: who was so angry at God came to faith. And 547 00:31:33,060 --> 00:31:37,140 S2: just recognizing what I did mattered. Even though it didn't 548 00:31:37,140 --> 00:31:39,140 S2: look like it did. And it was interesting. I did 549 00:31:39,180 --> 00:31:42,500 S2: a Bible study for LifeWay and they, um, they interviewed 550 00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:44,540 S2: my daughters and I didn't know what they were going 551 00:31:44,540 --> 00:31:47,980 S2: to say. So that's a little scary. Um, but the 552 00:31:47,980 --> 00:31:52,980 S2: one daughter who the Hokusai picture, um, she said when I, 553 00:31:53,260 --> 00:31:56,060 S2: after my dad left, I was a devil child. Like I, 554 00:31:56,100 --> 00:31:59,580 S2: I just wanted to make my mom's life miserable. But 555 00:31:59,580 --> 00:32:03,180 S2: then I realized, like her life was so bad and 556 00:32:03,180 --> 00:32:06,380 S2: yet she had joy. And I thought, there's got to 557 00:32:06,380 --> 00:32:10,580 S2: be a God. And she committed her life to Christ. 558 00:32:10,580 --> 00:32:14,500 S2: And I think about that because in a lot of 559 00:32:14,540 --> 00:32:18,160 S2: those years, honestly, probably the first two years, I saw 560 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,040 S2: no fruit, I saw anger, I saw frustration, and I thought, 561 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,959 S2: my faithfulness is making no impact on them. And I 562 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,280 S2: wasn't doing it for them. I was doing it for God. 563 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,440 S2: But it's amazing for anybody listening, like you have no 564 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,960 S2: idea what your kids are noticing and seeing, and you 565 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,320 S2: may not see fruit for a long time. 566 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,760 S1: You brought up Great expectations by Dickens in the book 567 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,080 S1: and the character of Miss Havisham and Friends. If you 568 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,040 S1: have not read the book, spoiler alert you know you've 569 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,040 S1: had a couple of hundred years. But, um, why? And 570 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,760 S1: that it's bitterness that grabbed her heart and and she 571 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,280 S1: wouldn't let it go, right? 572 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:05,040 S2: Yeah. So Miss Havisham was jilted at the altar as 573 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,760 S2: a young woman, and which she did ever since that day, 574 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,160 S2: she set everything in her house, her mind, her clocks 575 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,200 S2: to the moment when her fiance. She found out her 576 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:20,260 S2: fiance's deception of her. And so she just lived in 577 00:33:20,260 --> 00:33:24,980 S2: this house with this, uh, disintegrating wedding dress. That wedding 578 00:33:24,980 --> 00:33:29,420 S2: cake was still on the table, covered with fungus and bugs. 579 00:33:29,420 --> 00:33:33,700 S2: And she basically said, you know, I've worn away with it. Um, 580 00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:38,980 S2: and she thought she basically thought this was her punishment 581 00:33:39,140 --> 00:33:42,540 S2: to this man who left her. And he had no 582 00:33:42,540 --> 00:33:46,100 S2: idea that she was doing this, but her life stopped. 583 00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:50,420 S2: Bitterness had consumed her for what had been done to her. 584 00:33:50,420 --> 00:33:53,380 S2: And I didn't want that. And I did not want 585 00:33:53,380 --> 00:33:56,260 S2: to live in bitterness and live in what had been 586 00:33:56,260 --> 00:34:01,260 S2: done to me, versus letting it go and seeing what 587 00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:02,420 S2: God has for me. 588 00:34:04,180 --> 00:34:08,660 S1: And you write about in the book the the word 589 00:34:08,660 --> 00:34:14,779 S1: forgiveness and how difficult that is and how often, especially 590 00:34:14,780 --> 00:34:20,950 S1: those in the church will push people toward forgiveness prematurely. 591 00:34:21,870 --> 00:34:24,670 S1: It rush the forgiveness. So in our final segment, I 592 00:34:24,670 --> 00:34:26,870 S1: want you to talk about that. I also want you 593 00:34:26,870 --> 00:34:29,710 S1: to talk about what to do if you have a 594 00:34:29,710 --> 00:34:33,550 S1: friend or a family member who's in this kind of situation. 595 00:34:33,550 --> 00:34:36,590 S1: I want to know the difference between because you write both, 596 00:34:36,630 --> 00:34:40,469 S1: you write from your perspective as a woman, but you 597 00:34:40,469 --> 00:34:43,589 S1: also say, write to the men who are listening. You 598 00:34:43,590 --> 00:34:47,469 S1: may experience things emotionally a little bit differently than I did. 599 00:34:47,469 --> 00:34:49,830 S1: Here's what it looked like for me. But you have 600 00:34:49,830 --> 00:34:52,790 S1: to put that in your context. So you're very open 601 00:34:52,790 --> 00:34:55,430 S1: with all of, you know, what's going on in the 602 00:34:55,430 --> 00:34:59,270 S1: man's heart as well as he is looking at divorce. 603 00:34:59,310 --> 00:35:03,870 S1: Vineetha Reisner is our guest. This was never the plan 604 00:35:03,870 --> 00:35:07,469 S1: is our featured resource. Walking with God through the heartache 605 00:35:07,469 --> 00:35:11,549 S1: of divorce. If you go to Chris fabriclive.org, you'll see 606 00:35:11,550 --> 00:35:16,049 S1: it linked right there and in today's program, page suggested 607 00:35:16,050 --> 00:35:19,530 S1: to somebody who hasn't heard the program, they can listen 608 00:35:19,530 --> 00:35:32,210 S1: to it right there. Chris Fabry live dot ORG. For 609 00:35:32,210 --> 00:35:35,730 S1: a long time, I wrestled with God in my pain. 610 00:35:35,730 --> 00:35:40,930 S1: But as the months passed, I realized something profound. My 611 00:35:40,930 --> 00:35:44,529 S1: divorce hadn't been only the breaking of my heart. It 612 00:35:44,530 --> 00:35:48,810 S1: had also been the making of my faith. So, writes 613 00:35:48,850 --> 00:35:52,930 S1: Vanitha Reisner in the book, this was never the plan. 614 00:35:52,930 --> 00:35:56,410 S1: Walking with God through the heartache of divorce. Just go 615 00:35:56,410 --> 00:36:00,370 S1: to Chris Fabry live.org. All right. Talk about forgiveness. A 616 00:36:00,370 --> 00:36:05,130 S1: lot of people push people toward forgiveness. What do you 617 00:36:05,170 --> 00:36:07,610 S1: mean by forgiveness? What do you not mean? 618 00:36:08,130 --> 00:36:12,370 S2: Yeah. Well, in terms of what I mean by forgiveness, 619 00:36:12,370 --> 00:36:17,430 S2: I mean, not holding on to bitterness and refusing, um, 620 00:36:17,590 --> 00:36:21,589 S2: and to hold, well, voluntarily letting go the right to 621 00:36:21,630 --> 00:36:25,629 S2: hurt you for hurting me. And that's really what I 622 00:36:25,630 --> 00:36:28,950 S2: had first heard. Letting go of the right to hurt 623 00:36:28,950 --> 00:36:32,750 S2: you for hurting me. And so that type of forgiveness 624 00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:37,110 S2: is really unilateral. It doesn't depend on the other person 625 00:36:37,550 --> 00:36:42,189 S2: being repentant. It does not mean reconciling. It does not 626 00:36:42,190 --> 00:36:46,270 S2: mean even having a relationship with them again. It does 627 00:36:46,270 --> 00:36:51,910 S2: not mean, um, not pursuing legal action if necessary. But 628 00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:55,270 S2: it is um, sort of a, something we do with 629 00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:59,589 S2: God letting go of the offense and letting God's forgiveness 630 00:36:59,630 --> 00:37:04,230 S2: kind of flow through us. But it doesn't mean that 631 00:37:04,230 --> 00:37:07,990 S2: you have any kind of, um, have to go back 632 00:37:07,989 --> 00:37:10,870 S2: into any kind of relationship. And I think that's a 633 00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:15,370 S2: difference Some people define forgiveness as requiring repentance, and I 634 00:37:15,370 --> 00:37:18,089 S2: understand that. But that is not how I define it 635 00:37:18,090 --> 00:37:21,890 S2: in the book. But at the same time, even though 636 00:37:21,890 --> 00:37:25,729 S2: it doesn't require repentance, I don't think it should be 637 00:37:25,730 --> 00:37:30,010 S2: done just super quickly, like, okay, so they've hurt me. 638 00:37:30,010 --> 00:37:33,170 S2: Let me just forgive them and move on because I 639 00:37:33,210 --> 00:37:36,050 S2: don't think it is that quick. And I don't think 640 00:37:36,050 --> 00:37:38,290 S2: it really means anything when we try to do it 641 00:37:38,290 --> 00:37:39,009 S2: that quickly. 642 00:37:39,050 --> 00:37:42,690 S1: So is it's a process that it has to, again, 643 00:37:43,010 --> 00:37:46,089 S1: keep going day after day after day. You wake up 644 00:37:46,090 --> 00:37:48,569 S1: the next day and you have these feelings and you feel, oh, okay, 645 00:37:48,610 --> 00:37:51,730 S1: I didn't forgive. Well, no, you did as much as 646 00:37:51,730 --> 00:37:54,450 S1: you could. Now here's a new day, right? 647 00:37:54,489 --> 00:38:00,090 S2: Right, right. And for me, forgiveness started by first asking, 648 00:38:00,090 --> 00:38:02,730 S2: God help me want to want to like, I don't 649 00:38:02,730 --> 00:38:05,290 S2: want to. I mean, and I never want to, I 650 00:38:05,290 --> 00:38:07,690 S2: think I wrote in the book forgiveness the first step 651 00:38:07,690 --> 00:38:11,509 S2: of forgiveness feels like death. So. and it always does 652 00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:14,069 S2: to me. I don't care what I'm forgiving, but it 653 00:38:14,070 --> 00:38:17,310 S2: feels like giving up the right to something that you 654 00:38:17,310 --> 00:38:21,230 S2: really have. So it's hard. Um, and so I always 655 00:38:21,230 --> 00:38:24,350 S2: start with help me want to want this. And then 656 00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:28,350 S2: part of my process, Chris, is to write down every 657 00:38:28,350 --> 00:38:31,390 S2: single thing that I feel like that person took from me, 658 00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:34,790 S2: whether it's what they said and did or the implications 659 00:38:34,790 --> 00:38:38,509 S2: for me, my future people I care about, because I 660 00:38:38,510 --> 00:38:43,190 S2: really want to know what I'm saying. I forgive for um, 661 00:38:43,310 --> 00:38:47,910 S2: and that has helped me let go is really naming it. 662 00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:51,550 S2: And I write it because otherwise I'm kind of carrying 663 00:38:51,550 --> 00:38:54,069 S2: it in my brain so I won't forget. Oh yeah, 664 00:38:54,070 --> 00:38:56,590 S2: they hurt me this way. And oh, I remember that lie. 665 00:38:56,590 --> 00:38:59,350 S2: And oh, I remember this. And I just want to 666 00:38:59,390 --> 00:39:01,190 S2: write it down so I can kind of bring it 667 00:39:01,190 --> 00:39:04,190 S2: to the Lord and say, okay, I'm going to give 668 00:39:04,190 --> 00:39:08,430 S2: this to you. And I know you know, the Lord says, 669 00:39:08,530 --> 00:39:11,290 S2: vengeance is mine, I will repay. Like I'm going to 670 00:39:11,290 --> 00:39:14,370 S2: give this to you to repay. And I'm asking you 671 00:39:14,570 --> 00:39:18,170 S2: to help me forgive. Um. Just the way you've forgiven me. 672 00:39:18,890 --> 00:39:23,250 S1: Your daughters were ten and 13 when all this was happening. Um, 673 00:39:23,570 --> 00:39:25,690 S1: do they have a relationship with him? 674 00:39:26,650 --> 00:39:30,729 S2: Yeah. They do. So now they're both married and they 675 00:39:30,730 --> 00:39:35,530 S2: both have a good relationship with him. They they see him. Um, not. 676 00:39:35,570 --> 00:39:37,529 S2: I mean, he lives in another state, so not all 677 00:39:37,530 --> 00:39:40,730 S2: the time, but. And it was interesting. Um, we were 678 00:39:40,730 --> 00:39:44,890 S2: talking before at their, both of their weddings, we had, um, 679 00:39:44,890 --> 00:39:47,770 S2: my ex-husband and his wife who is the, um, the 680 00:39:47,770 --> 00:39:50,650 S2: woman he left me for, um, sit at, sit at 681 00:39:50,650 --> 00:39:55,170 S2: our table. And, uh, we wanted to do that one 682 00:39:55,170 --> 00:39:59,450 S2: to show the gospel, but to because I know they 683 00:39:59,450 --> 00:40:03,890 S2: didn't really have a relationship with anybody at that wedding anymore. Um, 684 00:40:04,130 --> 00:40:07,290 S2: and I, I, I didn't want him to feel awkward 685 00:40:07,290 --> 00:40:09,739 S2: or left out, and I didn't want my girls to 686 00:40:09,739 --> 00:40:12,859 S2: feel like, oh wow, we have to. We have to 687 00:40:12,860 --> 00:40:17,820 S2: make sure he feels comfortable because, um, I just felt 688 00:40:17,820 --> 00:40:20,779 S2: like this is something we can do. And Joel was 689 00:40:20,780 --> 00:40:24,660 S2: totally on board for both girls weddings, and I'm so 690 00:40:24,660 --> 00:40:25,900 S2: thankful we did it. 691 00:40:26,300 --> 00:40:30,620 S1: Yeah. What what has he said? Your ex. What has 692 00:40:30,620 --> 00:40:34,419 S1: he said about that? Uh, you making space at the table? 693 00:40:34,420 --> 00:40:36,779 S1: Because most people would say, okay, you're going to come, 694 00:40:36,780 --> 00:40:39,060 S1: you're going to sit over there. You're going to say, 695 00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:42,380 S1: but you know, I said here, you know, can't do that. 696 00:40:42,380 --> 00:40:45,460 S1: It's too uncomfortable. But no, you said, no, no, come on. 697 00:40:46,020 --> 00:40:49,899 S1: That's that's unheard of. So so what did he say 698 00:40:49,900 --> 00:40:50,620 S1: about that? 699 00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:54,500 S2: Well, he said after the wedding we were talking and 700 00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:58,540 S2: he said, um I can't tell you how much it's 701 00:40:58,540 --> 00:41:01,660 S2: meant to me for you to forgive me. It has 702 00:41:01,660 --> 00:41:05,379 S2: changed me. It has changed my life and it has 703 00:41:05,380 --> 00:41:09,279 S2: changed my relationship with the girls. You know, I. He 704 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,160 S2: just kept saying, I can't thank you enough for forgiving me. 705 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:18,799 S2: And I feel like it set me free, Chris, because 706 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,640 S2: before I was able to forgive. I was rehearsing everything. 707 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,680 S2: And I was so angry and so bitter. And when 708 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,640 S2: we forgive, we have no idea how free we feel. 709 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,760 S2: So it wasn't a sacrifice to sit at the table 710 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,279 S2: with him. It wasn't at all. I didn't feel like, okay, 711 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,560 S2: I'm dreading this. I can't do it. It felt like, okay, God, you, 712 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,799 S2: you have healed me and you've forgiven me and I 713 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:48,600 S2: can forgive. And I'm. Yeah, so it shows the power 714 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,920 S2: of Christ because I don't know if I would have 715 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,320 S2: done that without Jesus. Freedom. Jesus changes everything. 716 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,160 S1: It set you free. You know, it set you free. 717 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,200 S1: And look what that does to the other people around. 718 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,600 S1: But again, this didn't happen overnight. It happened at a 719 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:09,180 S1: process of years and years that you had to keep 720 00:42:09,180 --> 00:42:12,340 S1: working through that. Okay. Finally, we've got like four minutes 721 00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:15,020 S1: left here. How do you show up when a friend's 722 00:42:15,020 --> 00:42:19,580 S1: marriage ends? There's somebody listening right now, and they know that, 723 00:42:19,620 --> 00:42:22,259 S1: you know, this is going on with somebody that they really, 724 00:42:22,260 --> 00:42:23,780 S1: really care about. What do you do? 725 00:42:24,420 --> 00:42:27,020 S2: Yeah. Well, one, the first thing is I have this 726 00:42:27,060 --> 00:42:29,700 S2: acronym that I will run through quickly in like one 727 00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:32,460 S2: minute and then I'll explain like the main points of it. 728 00:42:32,460 --> 00:42:35,899 S2: But one is just show up, be there, call text, 729 00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:42,420 S2: just be available because you're really lonely. Um, one is 730 00:42:42,420 --> 00:42:44,900 S2: how is today? Don't say how are you doing? Nobody 731 00:42:44,900 --> 00:42:48,459 S2: knows how to answer that. Say ask something specific. How 732 00:42:48,500 --> 00:42:53,060 S2: has today gone? How did that meeting go? Like be specific. 733 00:42:53,300 --> 00:42:56,259 S2: Oh is offer specific help not let me know if 734 00:42:56,260 --> 00:43:00,140 S2: you need anything. But I love to do laundry. Uh, 735 00:43:00,140 --> 00:43:01,899 S2: can you put it outside your house and I'll pick 736 00:43:01,900 --> 00:43:04,800 S2: it up or I'd love to keep your kids on Wednesday. 737 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,640 S2: Like be specific. W is words of encouragement because you 738 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,200 S2: feel like a failure after divorce. So anything anybody can 739 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,040 S2: do to encourage you is so helpful. U is use 740 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:20,000 S2: active listening. Like people really want to talk more than 741 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,960 S2: they want to listen. And yet most of us, um, 742 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,000 S2: really want to talk who want to help. Because I 743 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,239 S2: am always convinced my words of wisdom are going to 744 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,719 S2: change somebody's life, but they really don't. It is God 745 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,960 S2: who changes them, but it helps so much to listen. 746 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,000 S2: And then P is pray. And it's the last one 747 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,480 S2: because it may show up work, but pray is the 748 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,880 S2: first thing we need to do. And I recommend to 749 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,000 S2: people like set an egg timer for three minutes or 750 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:53,080 S2: timer that sounds like that's nothing, but you would be 751 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,399 S2: amazed at what you can pray in three minutes. It's 752 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,640 S2: not just bless Sandy, it's, you know, you can go 753 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,320 S2: into a lot of detail in three minutes. So pray 754 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,500 S2: with them. Pray over the phone with them. Make prayer 755 00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:08,060 S2: something you do. Pray for yourself that God would show 756 00:44:08,060 --> 00:44:10,700 S2: you what to do in the midst of. Like your 757 00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:14,820 S2: friends struggle and it does depend on how close you are. 758 00:44:15,140 --> 00:44:17,500 S2: So if you're really close, there's so many things you 759 00:44:17,500 --> 00:44:20,220 S2: can do. And even in the book, Chris, I wrote 760 00:44:20,219 --> 00:44:24,140 S2: that book thinking maybe a close friend would buy the book. 761 00:44:24,620 --> 00:44:27,899 S2: And so the two people, the person who's going through 762 00:44:27,900 --> 00:44:31,700 S2: divorce and their friend could read it chapter by chapter. 763 00:44:31,700 --> 00:44:34,340 S2: And I have discussion questions for each chapter. 764 00:44:34,700 --> 00:44:36,620 S1: Because discussion questions they are. 765 00:44:37,020 --> 00:44:39,700 S2: I wrote those really for a friend to say, hey, 766 00:44:39,739 --> 00:44:42,859 S2: I want to ask you these specific questions so we 767 00:44:42,860 --> 00:44:45,500 S2: can really dig into some of these things that I 768 00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:47,939 S2: wouldn't even know to ask. And we kind of are, 769 00:44:47,940 --> 00:44:50,180 S2: are looking at the same thing as we ask them. 770 00:44:50,980 --> 00:44:54,819 S1: Is there hope for those who have been divorced to 771 00:44:54,860 --> 00:44:57,060 S1: come out of the shadows in the church? 772 00:44:57,100 --> 00:45:03,910 S2: Yeah, yeah. There is. I mean, One. Just trust God 773 00:45:03,910 --> 00:45:07,109 S2: with your story and know that he is writing a 774 00:45:07,110 --> 00:45:10,470 S2: good story and be willing to share it with people. 775 00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:13,230 S2: I mean, I honestly didn't want to write this book 776 00:45:13,270 --> 00:45:15,710 S2: and that's so embarrassing. But when the publisher approached me, 777 00:45:15,710 --> 00:45:17,430 S2: I was like, no, I don't want to be the 778 00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:21,469 S2: divorced girl. And I realized it's because we still feel shame. 779 00:45:21,469 --> 00:45:25,029 S2: And yet God has done so much for me, and 780 00:45:25,030 --> 00:45:28,070 S2: I'm so thankful I didn't let that hold me back. 781 00:45:28,430 --> 00:45:31,390 S2: Because people need to hear there's tons of other people 782 00:45:31,390 --> 00:45:35,230 S2: divorced in all of our churches who don't even feel 783 00:45:35,230 --> 00:45:37,830 S2: like they have a voice. And so you're being willing 784 00:45:37,870 --> 00:45:40,509 S2: to do that will give them the courage to do 785 00:45:40,510 --> 00:45:41,270 S2: it as well. 786 00:45:42,070 --> 00:45:44,750 S1: I am so glad that you didn't listen to the 787 00:45:44,750 --> 00:45:47,830 S1: voice that said, no, no, no, don't say this. Don't 788 00:45:47,830 --> 00:45:50,509 S1: want to talk about this. Because even in the and 789 00:45:50,510 --> 00:45:53,190 S1: I can tell your ex husband has given you permission 790 00:45:53,190 --> 00:45:55,950 S1: to to go into some of the, the details of 791 00:45:55,950 --> 00:46:00,290 S1: this because of the redemptive nature of it, because of 792 00:46:00,290 --> 00:46:03,570 S1: the power of forgiveness, because of the freedom that is 793 00:46:03,570 --> 00:46:07,009 S1: come into your own life. And, uh, we didn't even 794 00:46:07,010 --> 00:46:08,890 S1: get to talk about the camellia. I wanted to talk 795 00:46:08,930 --> 00:46:12,810 S1: about the the camellia. Uh, well, have you back on 796 00:46:12,810 --> 00:46:16,049 S1: we'll do a whole program on the camellias. Thank you, Beneatha, 797 00:46:16,050 --> 00:46:18,810 S1: for being real and open and honest with us today. 798 00:46:19,530 --> 00:46:21,850 S2: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Chris. 799 00:46:22,610 --> 00:46:28,170 S1: Beneatha Reisner. It looks like Reisner, but it's pronounced Reisner. 800 00:46:28,210 --> 00:46:31,450 S1: This was never the plan as the featured resource today. 801 00:46:31,450 --> 00:46:35,250 S1: Walking with God through the heartache of divorce. Hope that 802 00:46:35,250 --> 00:46:38,890 S1: brought you some help and encouragement today. And maybe for 803 00:46:38,890 --> 00:46:41,090 S1: you to be able to show up for a friend 804 00:46:41,090 --> 00:46:45,090 S1: or family member whose marriage is ending. Chris Fabry lives 805 00:46:45,090 --> 00:46:48,890 S1: production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.