S1: And it still is, is so painful. And yet there
S1: is joy because she is healed and whole. And that's
S1: our ultimate goal anyway, in this life we have a
S1: hard time remembering that. But it's not about where we
S1: are now. It's about where he is preparing us to go.
S2: All of those emotions flooded into our minds and our spirits,
S2: but God, in his supernatural mercy has given us the
S2: grace to.
UU: Walk through it.
S3: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S3: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages.
S3: If you're going through a loss in your life, our
S3: guest today will give some encouragement. This husband and wife
S3: team want to help you take steps to rebuild your
S3: life during any season of pain.
S4: Ed and Lisa Young will join us on this summer.
S4: Best of broadcast today and what a timely topic. If
S4: you are walking through a valley you didn't ask for
S4: and didn't want in your life. If you go to
S4: building relationships us, you'll see our featured resource, the book
S4: A Path Through Pain. And Gary, this is right where
S4: a lot of our listeners are living today, don't you think?
S5: Absolutely, Chris. Everybody goes through some sort of pain, you know?
S5: Sometimes it's minor stuff, but it's still painful. Sometimes it's
S5: major stuff, which is super, super painful. So yeah, I
S5: am really glad that we're discussing this topic and especially
S5: this book with Ed and Lisa Young, because it's really
S5: a good book, and I think our listeners are going
S5: to find some practical help.
S4: Well, let's meet our guests. Ed young is the founding
S4: pastor of Fellowship Church in the Dallas Fort Worth area,
S4: one of the most attended churches in North America. He's
S4: a New York Times bestselling author. Ed has written 17 books,
S4: is a frequent conference speaker. His wife, Lisa Young, gifted speaker, teacher,
S4: and Co-author. She has co-authored several books with editor. They've
S4: been married more than 40 years. They have four children,
S4: six grandchildren, and their latest is A Path Through Pain
S4: How faith Deepens and Joy Grows through What You would
S4: Never Choose. You can find out more at Building relationships.us.
S5: Well, editor and Lisa, welcome to Building Relationships.
S2: Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.
S1: Absolutely. We're honored to be with you today.
S5: Well, we are certainly glad to have you. I think
S5: it's interesting you titled this A Path Through Pain, because
S5: most people want to a path around pain, a path
S5: over pain. But is is this the only way through
S5: the storms of life is you got to go through them?
S2: I would say yes. I would say, I know you've
S2: heard this a million times, but you know, to to
S2: get to it, you have to go through it. And
S2: that's a pithy saying. It sounds really Great. And you
S2: know it's true. It it is a path through pain.
S2: There's there's no way we're going to escape this life unscathed.
S2: So it's something that we we all deal with.
S5: Yeah. Well, your book deals with all kinds of painful
S5: situations that our listeners will certainly identify with. But one
S5: of those for your life was about your daughter, Lizbeth.
S5: And why don't you start and just tell us a
S5: little bit about what happened.
S2: Lizbeth is our oldest. We have four children, and she
S2: was always just a a superstar, uh, person, whether it
S2: be in school or at church. She was one of
S2: of the key players on our staff. But due to
S2: just some toxic, uh, relationship choices that she made, she
S2: kind of went into a spiral. And in her late 20s,
S2: early 30s, she started binge drinking. What was unique about
S2: it is it was hard to discern or to see
S2: from even, uh, parent child relationship and also from a
S2: boss employee relationship. Yet we we saw it. And what
S2: what what happened was she binged with with alcohol and
S2: mixed that with Adderall. And she she literally passed away
S2: in in my arms. So it it it still is
S2: even surreal to think about how it, how it played
S2: out and, and, uh, she was just an amazing, amazing woman.
S2: Yet she had this struggle and this pain, um, due
S2: to I mean, she, she dealt with some, obviously some
S2: some depression and anxiety But she just had that had
S2: that day where that that toxic mix took her out.
S2: And and you know, obviously being being a pastor at
S2: least and I have been pastors we help start Fellowship
S2: Church 32 years ago. You know, our response is, you know,
S2: why me? Why God, the the anger, the doubt, all
S2: of those emotions just just flooded into our our our
S2: minds and and our in our spirits. But God in
S2: his supernatural mercy has given us the grace to to
S2: walk through it.
S5: Yeah. Well, Lisa, I read in the book that you
S5: were out of town, actually, when Lee Beth died. Uh,
S5: share something of your feelings and thoughts when all of
S5: that happened.
S1: So this had been a journey, obviously. I mean, you
S1: don't just. Well, I guess you can just start drinking
S1: and then it happens very fast that you end, you
S1: lose your life. But, um, this had been about a
S1: seven year journey for Lisbeth where she had some highs
S1: and lows. Um, so it wasn't unexpected that I got
S1: a call, um, while I was visiting my mother in
S1: South Carolina. We were. My sister and I were transitioning
S1: my mom to a memory care facility, and I had
S1: just landed in South Carolina, and I got a pocket
S1: call from Lisbeth, and I tried to call her back,
S1: and there was no answer. And then my phone rang
S1: and it was Lee Beth's sister, my daughter Leandra, who
S1: also had received a pocket call and had tried to
S1: call Lee Beth. And there was no answer. So I
S1: knew that although she had been seemingly doing well, that
S1: this was not a good situation. So Ed actually drove
S1: to her home and found her. And we were, of course,
S1: on the phone talking. That's a dad's mom's parent's worst
S1: nightmare to to find your child, you know? So intoxicated
S1: that they're they're basically almost unconscious. And, you know, he
S1: got her dressed, sobered her up, took her to her
S1: therapist office, and they met. And it was it was
S1: the very, very end of Covid. Well, you know, as
S1: Covid and the lockdowns, so to speak, here in the
S1: Dallas Fort Worth area, which we were more quick to
S1: exit a lot of those things than other places. And yet, uh,
S1: Lee Beth was very anxious, and she was I don't know,
S1: she just was very, just anxious, driven in that afternoon.
S1: And so they did consider should, you know, should she
S1: go to the hospital. And she was adamant that she
S1: did not want to go to the hospital because of
S1: the fact that she would have to be alone and
S1: editor would not be able to go into the hospital
S1: with her. And that was still a protocol here in Dallas.
S1: So with all that said, you know, I was trying
S1: to figure out how to get home. Um, editor made
S1: a bed for her in our house, and, you know,
S1: he can describe better how it all unfolded, but it
S1: just was the worst of the worst that mix with
S1: alcohol and Adderall. Um, her heart just started probably doing
S1: crazy things. We believe she had a seizure. And as
S1: Ed said, you know, he was by her side, and
S1: I was on the phone. The medical team came through
S1: ambulance and they took her to the hospital. And then,
S1: you know, the doctors confirmed that, you know, the brain
S1: activity was not there, that she she was not going
S1: to make it. So it just was a I mean,
S1: it's catastrophic. What what can I say, other than you
S1: leave to go on a trip to visit your mom
S1: and help take care of things that an older person
S1: is going through. I mean, my mom was 94. Um,
S1: I could I could expect her to be near death,
S1: but a 34 year old thriving young woman, um, as
S1: Beth was, it was tough.
S2: And, you know, to, you know, every father I think
S2: has these nightmarish thoughts now and then, you know, we
S2: try to mitigate them and tamp them down. What if
S2: something tragic happened? What if what if I lost a
S2: child or something happened to my family? And I remember
S2: thinking those thoughts and thinking, could I go on? Would
S2: I leave the ministry? Would I turn my back on God?
S2: That night I made a little bed for Beth in
S2: a play room we have for our grandchildren. And I
S2: kissed her and I said, Lee Beth, I love you.
S2: You're going to be okay. I said, I'll be in
S2: my office studying. And what's so really supernatural about the
S2: situation is I was studying a message On Abraham and Isaac.
S2: And I was in my office and Lizbeth was asleep,
S2: and I wrote the line, he placed him on an altar.
S2: I just wrote that. And that's out of Genesis 22.
S2: And then I heard a sound like I'd never heard before.
S2: I called her name, ran in there, and for the
S2: most part, she she was gone. So soon thereafter, Lisa
S2: and I were having breakfast at a 24 over seven cafe.
S2: And we, you know, in our doubts and tears and
S2: through anger and everything, we said, you know what? We
S2: cannot alter this situation. Alter. But we can alter it.
S2: Thinking about Abraham and Isaac. Alt r so that was
S2: the moment that we made the intentional decision to say, okay,
S2: through all of this, we're going to place this story
S2: on the altar. And if we have an opportunity to
S2: share it with one person. Great. More than that. Great.
S2: And we want to tell the the story honestly, with
S2: authenticity and biblically. And that before God and by his grace,
S2: that's what we have done over the over the ensuing
S2: now years.
S5: Yeah. Well, I think any parent who has a child
S5: is when they hear things like this and we hear
S5: we hear it, you know, but when it's out there,
S5: it's not with us. And it's deeply different when it
S5: happens in our family. But, uh, I'm, I'm glad that
S5: you all walked through the pain and walking through the pain,
S5: and and God is using it to help other people.
S5: And and, Lisa, later on, you found a journal that
S5: Lisbeth had had written. Uh, tell me about that and
S5: how that impacted you.
S1: I would say Beth's journal was evidence that even in
S1: the midst of the hardest things that she was going through,
S1: and she knew that she was limping through life, there
S1: was an awareness. But I believe with anyone struggling with addiction,
S1: there's this lack of control. And she wrote in her journal,
S1: would record that, in fact, she was listening to speakers.
S1: She was very much a part of the messages here
S1: at Fellowship Church. And she would write in her journal
S1: just various things about her struggles. And so as a
S1: mom looking at those, it it solidified the fact that
S1: her last worst decision did not define her life. She
S1: made a decision when she was six years old to
S1: give her life to Christ. And it was a very real, authentic, um,
S1: personal decision. Editor. And I, as parents, you know, you
S1: want to be a part of when your child meets Jesus.
S1: I mean, we're in the ministry, and we see kids
S1: all the time come to know the Lord through the
S1: church or whatever. But editor would talk to our kids
S1: at night, tucking them into bed, and we would kind
S1: of set the stage for that moment when they might
S1: bow the knee. And Lee Beth did not do that
S1: at home. It was not with us. And she came
S1: out of children's church one Sunday and she had the
S1: biggest smile on her face. In fact, it was Valentine's
S1: weekend and she had a heart with a cross in
S1: the center. And she said, mom, this is my heart
S1: and Jesus is in my heart. And that was the best,
S1: best decision she ever made. So looking at her journal
S1: just reminded me of that and the fact that it's
S1: tragic and and I, I mean yesterday even was a
S1: tearful day for me. I mean, any given day can
S1: be a tearful day because we walk with a limp.
S1: We're three years away from the time that she passed away.
S1: And it's still is is so painful. And yet there
S1: is joy because she is she is healed and whole.
S1: And that's our ultimate goal anyway, in this life we
S1: have a hard time remembering that. But it's not about
S1: where we are now. It's about where he is preparing
S1: us to go.
S6: Yeah.
S2: And also too, I, I want to say that this
S2: event and of course I would trade anything to have
S2: Lee Beth back, but this event has galvanized our church
S2: and has done so many amazing things. Just when we
S2: shared this and what happened and what is happening in
S2: people's lives and you know, the church, our church fellowship
S2: church surrounded us and helped us through this. And once again,
S2: here I am a pastor. I just saw the beauty
S2: of the body of Christ. You know, there there's so
S2: many terms in the New Testament that describe Christianity and
S2: describe the church. One. Another. One another one. Another one another. Yeah.
S2: So Lisa and I have have really lived out and
S2: been the recipients of that, but it was almost like
S2: two when this happened. And this is kind of strange.
S2: It's almost like people looked at us who attend Fellowship
S2: Church and they were like, okay, you know, you've preached
S2: this for three decades. Um, is it is it is
S2: it real? I mean, is it authentic? Is all this
S2: stuff you talk about? Um, does it does it really
S2: play out for for God's, you know, purpose and plan
S2: and his glory? So, so that was definitely a part
S2: of it. And then Something else too, for us is,
S2: you know, it's so easy for me, I think more
S2: so than Lisa, I would guess. Who knows? But it's
S2: it's easy for me to jump into the river of
S2: regret and try to swim against the current. You know,
S2: I would have, should have, could have, would have, should have,
S2: could have. And I, I truly believe that. Yeah, we're
S2: going to have regrets, no question. But there is a
S2: hand extended to us and it's a nail scarred hand.
S2: It's the hand of Jesus who wants to take us
S2: out of that river, out of the current and say, okay,
S2: even though you don't understand it, I have something for you.
S2: I have an awesome agenda for you. So not just
S2: the why transition from why to what? Okay, what what
S2: do you want me to do, Lord? How how how
S2: can I, uh, continue to push the ball downfield with
S2: with this limp?
S5: Yeah we know that a lot of parents have difficulty
S5: with their adult children. What would you say to the
S5: parent who is in the middle of trying to love
S5: their child well, but also knowing that we can't choose
S5: for our adult children? What would you say to them?
S1: I would say that I heard something the other day.
S1: It's like one of those statements that you read on
S1: social media and it said raising adult children, keep your
S1: mouth shut and leave the welcome mat out. And I
S1: and that's so true in a lot of ways, because
S1: we always want our children to feel like they can
S1: come to us. And yet it is a tightrope, if
S1: you will, on what to say and not say. But
S1: I believe God entrusted our children to us. We are
S1: the stewards of them. And without jumping into the pool
S1: of regret. because there are some things that I would
S1: say now that I probably didn't do well, then I
S1: would just say first, fervently and I mean fervently. Hit
S1: your knees and pray for your children. Pray for them.
S1: And when you have that inkling or that nudging which
S1: I believe is the Holy Spirit, call them, jump in
S1: if necessary and do certain things that you probably weren't
S1: expecting you'd have to do as an adult, a parenting
S1: adult children. And don't be shy. And I think this
S1: is something I'd say to myself not to be shy
S1: about crossing some boundaries. If they push back and you
S1: see that it's not going where it needs to go,
S1: then maybe back off. But don't be afraid to push
S1: some boundaries that you might have set in order to
S1: protect their health and their well-being. And I would say
S1: that's one of my regrets. And I don't know that
S1: it's a healthy regret, is that I wish sometimes I
S1: would have, just maybe have been a little bit more
S1: proactive and jumped into her space to try to help
S1: her along. But the bottom line is, is I couldn't
S1: fix it. I tried. Ed and I both tried to
S1: fix this, and I think that's what every parent, if
S1: their child is struggling, we want to fix it for them.
S1: And there's a there's a process in that and we
S1: aren't always able to to do that. We can assist,
S1: we can help. But ultimately they are adults and these
S1: decisions are theirs. It's really a tough, tough, tough thing.
S5: Yeah, I think sometimes parents tend to blame themselves, you know,
S5: after things like this happen. And, you know, what did
S5: we do wrong? I like to remind people God's first
S5: two children made a bad decision, and they had a
S5: perfect father. You know, we can't control our adult children.
S2: That's brilliant. That's brilliant.
S1: That speaks to me. Thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah,
S1: that's because I, I editor and I thankfully have leaned
S1: into therapy all a lot of our lives. And I
S1: have been seeing the therapist that Lee Beth actually went
S1: to and one of the sessions or several sessions actually,
S1: that we dealt with was my guilt and feeling responsible
S1: and what I might would have done differently. And so,
S1: as hard as it was, she suggested that I look
S1: through photographs and I know with photographs you capture the
S1: highlights of your family. But I looked back over the
S1: 34 years of Lee Beth's life, and I saw so
S1: many things that Ed and I did well.
S6: Yeah, yeah.
S1: And I had to embrace that. And that's not to
S1: say we didn't make a lot of mistakes. We're humans.
S1: We're parents, and and we're flawed ourselves. So how we
S1: don't do this perfectly but leaning into God, His Word,
S1: the local church which our kids were brought up under
S1: such wonderful Bible teaching. It sets the stage for success.
S1: And so we did a lot of things right. And
S1: I have to remind myself of that.
S6: Yeah.
S2: And doctor too, I think that I believe too in,
S2: in just this, this pilgrimage that we've been on and,
S2: and sharing, walking through a path of pain. It's afforded
S2: a lot of people in our church and others that
S2: that we know to to talk and to share about
S2: their pain. Obviously, pain is ubiquitous and you can't really say, okay,
S2: we have pain on this level and you're on a
S2: lower level or whatever pain. Pain is pain and everyone
S2: walks through it. And I, I, I wrote the just
S2: the word path p a t h and I and
S2: I thought about that. I love acrostics and like I
S2: wrote a purpose that always takes us the path is
S2: a purpose that always takes us to him. It's a
S2: purpose that always takes us to him. And I have
S2: tried to put that and keep that at the forefront
S2: when I have those.
S4: Those seasons.
S2: Of anger, doubt, remorse, you know, I think I think, too,
S2: that it's important to embrace the fact that there's no
S2: such thing as certainty that if if there if there
S2: was certainty, there would be no faith, and the just
S2: shall live and walk by faith. So I think it's
S2: important to, to to share that faith journey through it. And, and,
S2: and God gives us that capacity for faith. And then
S2: we somehow have that choice within it. And it's it's
S2: really a beautiful thing. But it's almost like with, with
S2: Lisa and I, they're, they're two lanes. There's the lane of,
S2: of grief and then there's another lane right beside it
S2: of joy. And I would say the lane of joy,
S2: which is tranquility of the soul, overtakes the, the, the
S2: lane of grief. Not that we still don't grieve, but
S2: but I would say that as a follower of Christ.
S6: Yeah. Yeah.
S5: Well, you know, I found through the years and I'm
S5: sure you have also in your ministry that many people,
S5: when they're going through experiences like this, tend to ask
S5: sincere questions of God, you know, how could you have
S5: let this happen? You know, did God create evil? You know,
S5: those kind of questions speak to those issues for just
S5: a moment.
S2: Yeah. And that's a that's a common question. I would
S2: say the biggest beef against Christianity is how could God
S2: allow bad things to happen? How could a good God
S2: allow evil? And if you if you start thinking about it,
S2: obviously the Bible is not a book just packed with explanations,
S2: but it it's more about promises. But there are some
S2: explanations in there. The fact that we have a freedom
S2: of choice, which is miraculous, the fact that we have
S2: a free will opens the door for evil. I mean,
S2: we either can choose God's way or choose the other.
S2: And we have chosen the other in our depravity and sinfulness.
S2: And because of that, we live in a fallen and
S2: fallible place, a broken place. So just the implications and
S2: the results of that is going to be bad things.
S2: So we always say God is good all the time.
S2: God is good. But I want to say God is
S2: good when things are good and God is good when
S2: things are not good. And we won't really know all
S2: of the answers until we get to heaven. But I
S2: would just say that's something that Lisa and I definitely
S2: have struggled with. I mean, it's like today, you know,
S2: we'll have someone in our church and they'll tell us
S2: that they've been on crack and they've been a meth
S2: addict for decades. And then they met Christ, and they've
S2: been free and they're healthy and whole and married and
S2: having kids and everything. So yeah, we rejoice in that.
S2: But also too, it's like, oh, sometimes a dirty little secret. Like, man,
S2: I wish that could have been Lee Barth. So yeah,
S2: it's an issue, I think that we'll always deal with why,
S2: you know, here we've lived a righteous life. Obviously not perfectly.
S2: And for something like this to to to occur. But again,
S2: we live in a place where it rains on the
S2: just and the unjust. Yeah.
S1: So Ed mentioned that because we have faith, to have faith,
S1: you can't have certainty, so to speak, which is true
S1: certainty means that everything's just, you know, the way it is,
S1: and you have no faith to go through life. And
S1: we know that Christianity is by grace through faith. And
S1: so Ed and I, I mean, I would say more
S1: than anything, it's not about certainty, it's about confidence. I
S1: have confidence in who God is. I became a Christ
S1: follower when I was a child, like nine years old.
S1: And I've never been like some spectacular sinner. I, you know,
S1: doing drugs or whatever. But I sinned enough that I
S1: needed a Savior. And so when I became a Christ follower,
S1: I just started doing the very basic things that seem
S1: so mundane. In fact, I would hear people give testimonies
S1: at our church and I would think, man, my testimony
S1: is so boring. I want I want a more exciting testimony.
S1: And here I am just, you know, having my quiet
S1: time with God most days, going to church, uh, living
S1: the life. And I didn't realize how big those simple
S1: things like the Christianity 101, the basics of the faith,
S1: how important those things were. Because then when you're hit
S1: with something like, we've gone through. You have this confidence
S1: in Christ that he has never failed you yet. And
S1: believe me, this is not the only painful thing that
S1: Ed and I have gone through. In fact, the way
S1: we started writing this book, we were planning to write
S1: a book on marriage. And as we were discussing I said, Ed,
S1: I read this article about things that couples go through
S1: that lead to divorce. And there were like ten of them.
S1: And you and I have gone through seven. So the
S1: fact that we've been married for 42 plus years is like,
S1: woo hoo! Yay, God! And so here we are doing
S1: this pain audit. And I looked at all these things
S1: we'd gone through. We've you know, starting Fellowship Church is
S1: like starting a company. And that's one of those markers
S1: moving to a new location and not and being all alone,
S1: not having family or friends nearby. Uh, we have twins
S1: having multiples. I went through secondary infertility and then our old,
S1: our one of our twins struggled with an eating disorder
S1: in high school. Our son was born with a genetic
S1: disease called neurofibromatosis. I could barely pronounce it, let alone
S1: grasp the meaning of what it meant for his life.
S1: So here we've gone through all these different things and
S1: those foundational faith steps of reading God's Word, listening to
S1: messages every week at church and being involved, serving and
S1: and sharing in your generosity and then just leaning in.
S1: It's almost like you are making deposits in your spiritual
S1: bank account. And when these hard things come, you have
S1: a place to go to withdraw the past. Goodness of God,
S1: you've seen it. You're confident in it. And that's the
S1: best I can do to explain how you walk forward
S1: and you take each step as it comes.
S2: Doctor Chapman, I want to ask you a question, if
S2: you don't mind. How how do you deal with that
S2: when people ask you, okay, how could God allow that?
S2: Or how, how, how could a good God allow evil?
S2: What what what do you normally say or how do
S2: you address that?
S5: I think typically the approach I take is similar to
S5: what you were saying earlier, and that is, you know,
S5: God gave us freedom. And in freedom we have the
S5: choice to make decisions. And those decisions affect not only us,
S5: they affect other people. Yes. So many times we're suffering
S5: because somebody else made the choice to do wrong and
S5: disobey God. You know, and we and we, we're suffering.
S5: You know, our our child was the one that got
S5: killed on the on the not. And I'm not talking
S5: about personally now I'm just giving an illustration. I got
S5: killed by a drunken driver. You know, they made a
S5: decision that affected my family. So. But because God allowed
S5: us freedom, this is a necessity. It is just going
S5: to happen. And it doesn't mean that God doesn't love us,
S5: that God's not with us. Uh, but, uh, you know,
S5: sin is a reality, and there's always consequences to sin.
S5: And it doesn't always it's not always our sin that
S5: causes us to suffer. So. And I think the other
S5: thing I sometimes say is the reality is we are
S5: never going to understand everything that happens in our lives.
S5: It's just a reality. You know, I wrote I wrote
S5: my memoirs back during the during the pandemic. And just like,
S5: what have I learned through all these years, you know,
S5: and one of them that just really stood out to
S5: me was, you're never going to understand everything that happens
S5: in your life. And I gave illustrations in my own life,
S5: you know, but everybody has things that you're just not
S5: going to understand. And that's where, again, what you all
S5: are talking about faith in God and believing that, you know,
S5: he he he will bring us through. He he'll bring
S5: us through this. So. Yeah. Well, let me ask you
S5: a question. This personal question for both of you. You
S5: mentioned the pain audit. You know, all these things that
S5: you have gone through. How has this affected your marriage
S5: between the two of you?
S1: That's a great question.
S2: Brilliant question. I, I would say my my knee jerk
S2: reaction is it has strengthened it. Those those things were
S2: not easy to absorb, but I would say it, it
S2: has definitely given us a a deeper love, a more
S2: mature love. It has given us the ability to look
S2: back and go, wow, God took us through this. He's
S2: took us. He's taken us through that. So it's so
S2: it's given us, uh, God's guidance. I could I should
S2: say in, in, in, in our marriage. And I would
S2: definitely add that this, this intense pain that we're talking
S2: about that happened three years ago with the loss of
S2: our daughter. It has it has brought Lisa and I
S2: closer to one another. No, no question about it.
S1: And I would say to that, that the reason that
S1: happens is intentionality. It It could go either way. We
S1: had a good foundation in our marriage based on just,
S1: you know, our commitment to God and our commitment to
S1: one another, but also when all of these different things happened,
S1: it it created this need for us to look within
S1: ourselves and at the needs of our spouse. Like Ed
S1: processes things way differently than me. I if God had
S1: just such a great sense of humor when he put
S1: the two of us together, and because I'm more of
S1: an I'm more of an introvert and he's more of
S1: an extrovert, I process pain by just hiding it, and
S1: then all of a sudden it's going to come out
S1: and then he's he will talk it. He'll verbalize it.
S1: And so we had to recognize that, especially with this,
S1: the death of our daughter, we had to respect each
S1: other's pain processes and to look and notice things that
S1: maybe we weren't paying attention to before. Like, I had
S1: to notice if something was affecting editor and editor has
S1: definitely learned to notice me, and we've also learned to
S1: communicate better. To say this is my bandwidth is stretched
S1: and I can't do any more today, or I, I
S1: just can't. I'm not at a place where I can
S1: go and do this at this moment, and just learning
S1: to respect that, that you're different and you're going to
S1: process pain differently and, and the open communication and all
S1: of those things, I would say went to another level
S1: three years ago for us. Yeah.
S6: Yeah.
S5: Yeah. I think you're exactly right. If people don't process
S5: the reality that people handle pain in a different way,
S5: it can it can pull them apart. You know, like
S5: a husband. I've heard sometimes a husband say to a wife,
S5: maybe when they've lost even a baby, he'll say, no,
S5: look it's been six months. You got to get over this,
S5: you know? And so we can condemn each other. It
S5: can push us apart if we're not empathetic and recognize
S5: our differences and accept them.
S1: I would add to that, you know, we have three
S1: other adult children who are married and our grandchildren, and
S1: we have a lot to live well for. In other words,
S1: we want to do our marriage well in spite of adversity,
S1: to continue an example for our children and our grandchildren,
S1: and also to recognize that they're grieving as well in
S1: their own unique way.
S5: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Ed, you mentioned earlier your church family
S5: and how they responded positively to you. What are some
S5: of the factors, maybe that you experienced there, or our
S5: listeners who are in a church and have friends who
S5: go through these kind of things. How can they respond?
S5: How can a church respond? You know that will be
S5: helpful to people walking through pain.
S2: You know, people have asked me, for example, okay, when
S2: a tragedy strikes, you know, what do you say or
S2: what do I say? And I would say it was
S2: the ministry of their.
S4: Presence.
S2: Their presence just being there that that carried us through. Obviously,
S2: I knew that they were praying for us. But those,
S2: those little things, whether it be flowers, a card, a text,
S2: an email, a drawing, anything, food. Oh, yeah, you know, food.
S1: You know.
S6: We're from the South, so we love.
S1: The food. Whenever there's anything tragic, you definitely get a casserole.
S1: And those things speak volumes.
S6: Yeah, and I didn't realize.
S2: I didn't realize how important those little things were doctor.
S2: until this this happened. I mean, I was almost like,
S2: I guess I'm a type A well, in fact, I
S2: know I'm a type A personality and I, you know,
S2: when when tough things would happen. I was empathetic to
S2: a certain extent, but now it's just totally changed. So
S2: I would I would say, I would say that, I
S2: would say also to and this can be kind of dicey.
S2: But they they have shared a lot of people in
S2: our church have shared some of the pain scenarios that
S2: they've gone through with us. So I would just say
S2: that I would say the consistency of of being involved
S2: in church, that muscle memory of attending church every week,
S2: of being in a small group where where you can
S2: share therapy. All of those things were were great, great
S2: support to Lisa and I, but I would just encourage
S2: people to share. You know, I heard someone say revealing
S2: your feeling is the beginning of healing. And I think
S2: if we would do that, if, if, if, if those
S2: of us in the church would share, you would find
S2: out you're not on an island, that that people have
S2: a commonality with you that you wouldn't believe, yet the
S2: enemy wants us to try to process it ourselves. So.
S2: So those are some things that I would say as
S2: far as how the church, how how Fellowship Church has,
S2: has helped us.
S1: And I could I add to that just a little bit?
S2: Surely now the good stuff.
S1: No. The vulnerability piece for Ed and I. I mean,
S1: if you think about it. So we're the pastors. I mean,
S1: Ed's the lead pastor here at Fellowship Church. I've been
S1: by his side for these 34 years and to be
S1: vulnerable in front of people and actually say, our daughter
S1: passed away due to an alcohol related Incident is a
S1: big humbling statement. Yes it is. And yet, everything in
S1: our lives, whatever pain we've gone through, whatever joy we've
S1: gone through, we have put it by the best of
S1: our abilities on the altar so that God could use it.
S1: So we had to make that choice early on. In fact,
S1: the morning that Leigh Beth passed away, you know, God,
S1: you're big enough to take this shameful experience and use
S1: it for your good. And when people I don't know
S1: that it I don't know if people expected that I don't.
S1: There were so many people who didn't realize kind of
S1: what Leigh Beth had been going through. There were those
S1: who did, because Ed and I are big believers in
S1: leaning into that circle of wise counsel, and we had
S1: definitely some staff members who were aware of it, but
S1: I think it freed our church up to say I
S1: could be vulnerable too. Two. That's great. And we began
S1: to share on a deeper level with individuals who were
S1: also walking through pain. I'll give you a don't as
S1: a member of a church. Like what not to do.
S1: You don't want to when, when when you meet when
S1: you meet somebody who's had a loss, don't don't just start,
S1: you know, talking about your loss in that moment, like
S1: when you're coming to greet them and you, you feel.
S1: And I think most people do that very innocently because
S1: they want a point of identification. But at that moment
S1: it's more important for for you just to listen. And
S1: then the other thing is Romans 828 is such a
S1: beautiful verse, but it's not a band aid, right? Especially
S1: for a gaping wound. Yeah. And it is a hope
S1: and a promise to hold on to. But we don't
S1: necessarily need to be quoting scriptures. Yeah Or saying, oh,
S1: but they're in such a better place. Yeah, because I
S1: know Lee Beth is in heaven, but I'm still in
S1: my humanity as a mom. I want her here with me.
S1: Those are all well intentioned things. But I learned and
S1: there are things that I've said before. So I'm preaching
S1: to myself that that. Okay, that's probably not wise to say.
S2: And you know, Gary, I would think to well, I
S2: would know that being a pastor and it's sort of
S2: a public position. Grieving publicly is is different than someone
S2: who who is not in the public positions that Lisa
S2: and I are in our context. And that's yeah, I
S2: think that's a little bit, a little bit unique.
S5: Yeah, I think you're right. And I certainly agree that
S5: when a pastor is vulnerable and his wife and share openly,
S5: you know, what has happened and all. Man, the people
S5: identify with you, you know. Yes, sir. You're not just
S5: a voice up there, you know, giving things, you know,
S5: out of the Bible, but you're a real person. So, yeah,
S5: I think from your perspective, you know, that's important. Yeah. Lisa,
S5: in the book, you know, a Path Through Pain, you
S5: share journal entries that you made while you were walking
S5: through this journey. I mean, you're writing your journals, your
S5: own journal. Why did you decide to first of all,
S5: do the journal? And why did you decide to include
S5: some of those entries in the book?
S1: Ed's the one that really got me journaling years and
S1: years ago because he's he's always he's an artist as well.
S1: He draws and paints and does all these things. So
S1: I think he began journaling just to doodle, you know,
S1: paintings and little drawings, not paintings, but drawings. And so
S1: but he's always journaled his devotionals. So he just seeing
S1: him do it, I decided to do it. In fact,
S1: we recently moved and I had a box full of
S1: journals that are just filled with random things that the
S1: Lord has shared during our quiet time. And that's that's
S1: kind of that faith deposit that I was mentioning earlier,
S1: is that I can go back and look at these
S1: journals and see various degrees of issues that I was
S1: dealing with and how God faithfully showed up and some
S1: of those things, though I, I think they're still unanswered.
S1: There are few, but he still shows up. And so
S1: I we actually were going through the one year Bible
S1: we had started at January 1st of 2021, 2021, I think.
S1: And so we were going through that and I was
S1: just journaling, continuing to do this practice. And one of
S1: the journals that spoke to me greatly was the week
S1: before Lee Beth passed away, and I was referencing Joseph
S1: and the fact that Joseph had such highs and lows
S1: and how faithful he was to God in and through
S1: it all, and that, you know, whether he was in
S1: the palace or whether he was in the prison. God
S1: used him. And I actually wrote, Lord, help me to
S1: take the worst scenario and use it for your glory.
S1: And that was five days, I think, before Lisbeth died.
S1: And I looked back over that journal and just was, wow, God,
S1: that wasn't a flippant prayer at the time, but I
S1: had no idea that it would be five days later
S1: that I would be praying it so earnestly. Don't let
S1: this pain go to waste. Yeah. And that's that's. I
S1: guess that's how we decided to use some of the
S1: journal entries, because they were just so real to my heart.
S1: They this book is, is, um, we love all the
S1: books we've written and the ones Ed's written, but I
S1: would say this one is, is as much real and
S1: raw as you can get. And we it's not just
S1: our story, it's stories of others who've gone through cancer,
S1: who've lost a loved one, who just one was in
S1: a car accident and was paralyzed. And they all tell
S1: that story of how God has faithfully shown up. And
S1: I think that's what my journal represents, is that I'm
S1: struggling and God shows up, I'm dealing with this, and
S1: God shows up and it's just those precious moments with
S1: the Lord.
S6: But I think.
S2: To Lisa, you say so beautifully how people go, man,
S2: how do you prepare for something like this? And you go,
S2: you said you can, and you had your entire life
S2: talking about those basics that you did. It's like you're
S2: depositing into your spiritual bank account, those those daily disciplines,
S2: those those moments with God. Then when pain does strike you,
S2: you sometimes might have to tap into the principal and
S2: make withdrawals, which we've done. But that's the importance of
S2: that walk each.
S6: And every day.
S1: It seems so insignificant at the time, carving out 15
S1: to 30 minutes each morning, to which I believe morning
S1: is the best time. Football players warm up before a game.
S1: They don't. I mean, they kind of stretch afterwards, but
S1: we want to do the pregame prep and that's what
S1: my morning quiet time is. And it seems oh, it's
S1: no big deal. It's it's not that important. And yet
S1: I will tell you firsthand it's massively important because God
S1: gives you things in that quiet moment that sustain you
S1: through life.
S5: Well, we've only touched the surface of this book, A
S5: Path through Pain. How faith deepens and joy grows through
S5: what you would never choose. So I want to thank
S5: you all for being here. I want to encourage our
S5: listeners to get the book. I think whatever you're going through,
S5: you're going to find this book to be helpful. So
S5: thanks for being with us today, and may God continue
S5: to guide you in the ministry that he's given you.
S1: Thank you so much.
S6: Thank you.
S2: Well, we hope today's.
S4: Conversation has been encouraging to you. Whatever you're going through
S4: to find out more about Ed and Lisa Young's book,
S4: A Path Through Pain, go to building relationships.us again. Building relationships.us.
S4: Our summer best of broadcasts continue next week. If you
S4: have adopted children or you're thinking about adopting, hear a
S4: discussion about loving your adopted children well. Using the five
S4: love languages.
S3: Don't miss the conversation in one week. Before we go,
S3: let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice backing.
S3: And in Dallas, Kevin Bonnett. Building relationships with Doctor Gary
S3: Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with
S3: Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute Thanks for listening.