1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:10,360 S1: Bibliophiles and readers across the fruited plain. Unite. Because the 2 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:14,400 S1: time has arrived for another edition of Rosie's Book Club 2.0. 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,079 S1: Here at the Radio Backyard Fence today, your observations, comments, 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,680 S1: questions and reaction to the story by a man named 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:26,840 S1: George McDonald. The story is titled The Wise Woman. If 6 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,120 S1: you have read it, I want to hear from you today. 7 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,720 S1: If you have not, that's okay. You will benefit from 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,919 S1: the conversation straight ahead, from the heart to the heart 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,400 S1: and for the heart of good stories. Well told. Doctor 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,520 S1: Rosalie de rosé is standing by. She's brought a guest 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,000 S1: from her classroom with her. This is going to be 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,840 S1: so good. We shouldn't be allowed to have this much 13 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,240 S1: fun on the radio, but it's going to happen right here. 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,080 S1: It won't be as good without your participation. So here's 15 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:58,240 S1: the number (877) 548-3675 if you want to be part of discussion. 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:05,179 S1: Ask a question. Make a comment (877) 548-3675. Find all of 17 00:01:05,180 --> 00:01:09,300 S1: our contact information at the website. Chris Fabry live.org. Let 18 00:01:09,300 --> 00:01:11,899 S1: me thank our team. Ryan Mcconahay doing all things technical. 19 00:01:12,100 --> 00:01:14,740 S1: Tricia's our producer Lisa is in the chair. Josh will 20 00:01:14,740 --> 00:01:17,539 S1: be answering your calls today. And you would not be 21 00:01:17,540 --> 00:01:20,820 S1: hearing this book club conversation without the support of our 22 00:01:20,819 --> 00:01:23,899 S1: friends and partners of Chris Fabry Live. Each month, I 23 00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:26,700 S1: get to choose a resource to send your way as 24 00:01:26,700 --> 00:01:30,020 S1: a thank you. And because I've heard so many responses 25 00:01:30,020 --> 00:01:34,740 S1: from broken hearted parents who have fractured relationships with their 26 00:01:34,740 --> 00:01:38,259 S1: adult children, anyone who supports us this month is going 27 00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:42,580 S1: to receive Doctor Kathy Cook's book, Resolve, Conflict and Find 28 00:01:42,620 --> 00:01:46,340 S1: peace and Hope with adult children. The easiest way to 29 00:01:46,340 --> 00:01:51,380 S1: do that? Just go through the website, Chris fabry.org. You'll 30 00:01:51,380 --> 00:01:53,500 S1: be able to scroll down and see the book right there. 31 00:01:53,540 --> 00:01:55,820 S1: Give a gift, a one time gift, or a monthly 32 00:01:55,820 --> 00:01:57,580 S1: gift if you want to be a partner with us. 33 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,880 S1: Chris Fabry live.org. Or you can call our listener line 34 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,920 S1: to give at 86695. Fabry. Thank you for helping us 35 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:12,639 S1: continue these conversations at the Radio Backyard Fence. Doctor Rosalie 36 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,120 S1: de rosé is retired professor of literature at Moody Bible Institute. 37 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,640 S1: She taught full time, more than 50 years, earned her M.A. 38 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:24,240 S1: in English from Northeastern Illinois University, M.Div. from Trinity, Ph.D. 39 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,720 S1: in Language Literacy and Rhetoric from the University of Illinois 40 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,640 S1: at Chicago. She is the author of Seduced and Unshaken 41 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,600 S1: The Place of Dignity in a Woman's Choices, which is 42 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,080 S1: still in print after 14 years. Rosie, welcome back. How 43 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:38,720 S1: are you doing? 44 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,440 S2: It's wonderful to be here, Chris, as always. And I 45 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,480 S2: always smile when you say those things. 46 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,919 S1: And here's who you brought with you. A junior at 47 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:53,160 S1: Moody Bible Institute studying linguistics and biblical languages with the 48 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:58,740 S1: hope of serving in Bible translation. Joanna Odeen from Yorkville, Illinois, 49 00:02:59,260 --> 00:03:02,940 S1: is passionate about all things language and literature. Joanna, welcome 50 00:03:02,940 --> 00:03:04,459 S1: to the program. How are you doing today? 51 00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:05,980 S3: I'm doing good. Thank you. Chris. 52 00:03:06,460 --> 00:03:10,419 S1: Tell me more about that. Studying linguistics and biblical languages. 53 00:03:10,419 --> 00:03:13,780 S1: If you were to look down the road ten, 15, 54 00:03:13,820 --> 00:03:15,980 S1: 20 years, where do you want to be and what 55 00:03:15,980 --> 00:03:17,020 S1: do you want to be doing? 56 00:03:17,460 --> 00:03:21,060 S3: Well, my hope would be to be some in some 57 00:03:21,060 --> 00:03:24,139 S3: other part of the world serving on a Bible translation project. 58 00:03:24,580 --> 00:03:28,380 S1: Fantastic. Any any particular place? If you could throw a 59 00:03:28,380 --> 00:03:30,780 S1: dart and say, I'd love to go here, where would 60 00:03:30,780 --> 00:03:31,220 S1: it be? 61 00:03:31,419 --> 00:03:33,660 S3: Oh, I'm not really sure yet. I'll go wherever God 62 00:03:33,660 --> 00:03:36,860 S3: sends me, but I kind of have an interest in, 63 00:03:36,900 --> 00:03:42,860 S3: like the region like this. The stands in Russia and 64 00:03:43,140 --> 00:03:43,620 S3: that area. 65 00:03:43,900 --> 00:03:45,620 S1: So excellent. 66 00:03:45,660 --> 00:03:48,460 S2: And she was in Guatemala this summer, Chris, doing translation. 67 00:03:48,500 --> 00:03:49,980 S1: Yeah. What did you do in Guatemala? 68 00:03:50,460 --> 00:03:53,100 S3: Uh, I was working with a missionary friend. Um, she 69 00:03:53,100 --> 00:03:58,400 S3: was translating these video discipleship materials from English into Spanish. 70 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,920 S3: And I have connections with a Spanish speaking church here 71 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,640 S3: in the Chicago area. So my church was kind of 72 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,480 S3: helping her church, um, with part of the translation process. 73 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,360 S3: And I got to be down there for a while 74 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,840 S3: helping and then organizing volunteers back here. 75 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,920 S1: Fantastic. So, Rosie, tell me about Joanna. Why did you 76 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:17,160 S1: invite her here today? 77 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,880 S2: Well, I had two, two people in mind. One was 78 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,000 S2: my brother Fred, who had just read it and loved it. 79 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,480 S2: And he's a very careful reader, but I know that 80 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,760 S2: you always say two professors on the air is intimidating. 81 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,239 S2: I'm about as intimidating as a rutabaga, but that's another thought. 82 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,800 S2: So I began to think, and I. Joanna was. In 83 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,360 S2: my last class. I taught at Moody Images of Christ, 84 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,520 S2: and she's just exceptionally insightful and she's willing to talk. 85 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,760 S2: So she was, and she's humble. She's. She just was 86 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,640 S2: wonderful in interpreting literature. And so I thought, oh, why not? 87 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,360 S2: You know, there's you, you, you have to be careful 88 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,739 S2: with that. You don't know if they'll, you know, talk. 89 00:04:54,740 --> 00:04:58,180 S2: And she did. So she talked all the time and 90 00:04:58,220 --> 00:04:59,940 S2: not in an obnoxious way, in a very good way. 91 00:04:59,940 --> 00:05:02,419 S2: So I knew she'd understand well and be able to 92 00:05:02,460 --> 00:05:04,220 S2: bring something to the table. And it's a good thing 93 00:05:04,220 --> 00:05:05,660 S2: to have somebody young on the air. 94 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:08,780 S1: So I agree, and the fact that she's smarter than 95 00:05:08,820 --> 00:05:11,100 S1: both of us put together, you know, that helps. 96 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:11,700 S2: It helps. 97 00:05:12,180 --> 00:05:17,060 S1: Okay, so let's begin then. The wise woman very short 98 00:05:17,060 --> 00:05:20,140 S1: book is not very long at all. Tell me about 99 00:05:20,140 --> 00:05:22,859 S1: George MacDonald and why you chose this book. 100 00:05:23,020 --> 00:05:25,300 S2: Well, first of all, I just absolutely love the book. 101 00:05:25,300 --> 00:05:27,060 S2: I've loved it for years and years and years. I 102 00:05:27,060 --> 00:05:29,659 S2: do not equally love all of MacDonald. He tended to 103 00:05:29,660 --> 00:05:33,619 S2: be a little bit, um, polemic. In other words, principles 104 00:05:33,620 --> 00:05:40,420 S2: of wisdom. His novels are not all successful as literary fiction, 105 00:05:40,420 --> 00:05:43,900 S2: but of course he wrote some wonderful, fantastic Lilith or 106 00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:47,460 S2: his two best novels, and his children's stories are wonderful. 107 00:05:47,779 --> 00:05:51,300 S2: But this is. I have never concealed the fact that 108 00:05:51,300 --> 00:05:54,560 S2: I regarded him as my master, wrote C.S. Lewis of 109 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,960 S2: George MacDonald. Indeed, I fancy I have never written a 110 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:59,920 S2: book in which I did not quote from him, which 111 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:05,359 S2: is really true. You can see Lewis MacDonald in Lewis often. Indeed, 112 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,359 S2: he figures as one of the Angel guides in The 113 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,800 S2: Great Divorce, and then G.K. Chesterton said that the book 114 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,480 S2: that made the greatest difference in his whole existence and 115 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,200 S2: made him see things in a certain way, was the 116 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,640 S2: Princess and the Goblin. He was an obscure Scotsman living 117 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:25,320 S2: during the age of Dickens and Thackeray. Uh, he became 118 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,200 S2: much more well known in the United States. He began 119 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,520 S2: to be published by Erdman's. Uh. 120 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,440 S1: In a big, long beard, too. 121 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:33,800 S2: Yes. He had a big, long beard. His dates are 122 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,760 S2: 1824 to 1905. So obviously he was not a contemporary 123 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,320 S2: of Lewis. Lewis was born in 1898, and they say 124 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,680 S2: he had an almost perfect relationship with his father, who 125 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,400 S2: was the earthly root of all his wisdom. And this 126 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,279 S2: is a book about wisdom. So he was prepared in 127 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,060 S2: an unusual way, to teach about the relationship between the 128 00:06:54,060 --> 00:06:57,300 S2: father of and the son as central to our lives. 129 00:06:57,300 --> 00:07:01,179 S2: He actually wrote poetry, novels, literary criticism, and children's tales, 130 00:07:01,180 --> 00:07:04,179 S2: and he talked about, you know, for children from 9 131 00:07:04,180 --> 00:07:08,100 S2: to 90 or 8 to 80. Um, and he, his 132 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:11,700 S2: sermons are actually very, very good too. He reacted to, uh, 133 00:07:11,740 --> 00:07:17,420 S2: rigid Calvinism. And so he was actually his salary was lowered. 134 00:07:17,420 --> 00:07:19,780 S2: He was a very ill paid cleric. His salary was 135 00:07:19,780 --> 00:07:21,660 S2: lowered because they said he preached too much on the 136 00:07:21,660 --> 00:07:25,060 S2: mercy of God, which is very funny. So he managed 137 00:07:25,060 --> 00:07:27,220 S2: to limp along a little bit longer. And then he 138 00:07:27,220 --> 00:07:31,180 S2: embarked on a life of lecturing, tutoring, occasional preaching and 139 00:07:31,220 --> 00:07:36,580 S2: odd jobs. Was always poor but always optimistic. Had 11 children, 140 00:07:37,420 --> 00:07:39,980 S2: four of whom preceded him in death, and he was 141 00:07:39,980 --> 00:07:43,580 S2: immensely popular as a speaker. And he toured America to 142 00:07:43,620 --> 00:07:47,940 S2: crowds that would be, uh, in relationship to, to, you know, 143 00:07:47,940 --> 00:07:51,800 S2: the numbers of the time, like rock concerts today. Uh, he, 144 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,920 S2: like said he remained poor his whole life. Very good 145 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,720 S2: friend of Lewis Carroll's. And the very famous picture of 146 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,240 S2: Alice from Alice in Wonderland is modeled after one of 147 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:05,080 S2: his daughters. And his biggest theme was obedience to God. 148 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,840 S2: He said, we are no more to think, what would 149 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,840 S2: I like to do? But what would the living one 150 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,240 S2: have me do? And Lewis said, he seems like a 151 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,560 S2: very sunny man, and he was generous toward his friends, 152 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,920 S2: hospitable to strangers and very responsible to his children, deeply 153 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,640 S2: in love with his wife, whom he sorrowfully awaited reunion 154 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,320 S2: with when she died three years before him. And this 155 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:34,440 S2: this just takes the cake, McDonald's son commented. They give 156 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,800 S2: so realistic a picture of domestic and widely shared happiness. 157 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,400 S2: So simple, faithful and happy. Were this father and mother 158 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:47,120 S2: so full their lives of pathos and humor. Isn't that wonderful? 159 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,340 S1: That's. Yeah, that's a picture pulling back the cover of 160 00:08:51,380 --> 00:08:54,980 S1: their lives. Yeah. I saw one of his biographers said 161 00:08:54,980 --> 00:08:58,459 S1: that his theology. See if you agree with this. His 162 00:08:58,460 --> 00:09:02,860 S1: theology celebrated the rediscovery of God as Father and sought 163 00:09:02,900 --> 00:09:07,300 S1: to encourage an intuitive response to God in Christ through 164 00:09:07,300 --> 00:09:11,340 S1: quickening his reader's spirits in their reading of the Bible 165 00:09:11,500 --> 00:09:14,420 S1: and their perception of nature. Do you agree with that? 166 00:09:14,460 --> 00:09:17,820 S2: Oh yeah. Yeah, I absolutely do. And and of course, 167 00:09:17,820 --> 00:09:21,180 S2: we have a theme inside this story of the importance 168 00:09:21,179 --> 00:09:24,340 S2: of story and narrative. And when you think how great 169 00:09:24,340 --> 00:09:27,260 S2: the narrative the scripture is, I think what he is 170 00:09:27,260 --> 00:09:29,740 S2: trying to do is to get delight back into the 171 00:09:29,740 --> 00:09:34,420 S2: Christian life, into obedience and into, obviously, the reading of Scripture. 172 00:09:34,980 --> 00:09:39,179 S2: There are theological little nuances that are not quite a 173 00:09:39,179 --> 00:09:44,260 S2: straight line in MacDonald. Um, but I don't worry about him. 174 00:09:47,140 --> 00:09:49,360 S1: Joanna, is there anything you disagree with so far or 175 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,320 S1: anything you want to bang the table and say, no, 176 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:52,160 S1: that's not right. 177 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:54,520 S3: I don't have any disagreements. 178 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,400 S1: All right. Well, we're going to get to them. We're 179 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,440 S1: going to get to those because in our next segment, 180 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,040 S1: we're going to open this book, The Wise Woman. And 181 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:09,559 S1: here's the number (877) 548-3675. If you have read this and 182 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,120 S1: you have a question or a comment, or if you hadn't, haven't, 183 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,319 S1: and you are listening along to this story that was written, 184 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:21,400 S1: I think it was published in 1875, the Lost Princess, 185 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,360 S1: A Double Story is the other title of that, The 186 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:42,400 S1: Wise Woman. (877) 548-3675. Rosie's Book Club 2.0 is in session today. 187 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,440 S1: We're talking about The Wise Woman by George MacDonald. You 188 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:50,819 S1: can find out more about the book club@kris.org. And and 189 00:10:50,820 --> 00:10:53,060 S1: know this by the end of the hour, we're going 190 00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:55,900 S1: to tell you the next book, which will be in 191 00:10:55,900 --> 00:10:59,420 S1: October for our book club, Rosie's Book Club. So make 192 00:10:59,420 --> 00:11:02,380 S1: sure you stay with us. Uh, Rosalee de rosé is 193 00:11:02,380 --> 00:11:05,660 S1: retired professor of literature author, and she's brought along with 194 00:11:05,660 --> 00:11:08,660 S1: her Joanna Odin, who's a junior at Moody Bible Institute. 195 00:11:08,660 --> 00:11:09,980 S1: And I told her in the break, we're going to 196 00:11:09,980 --> 00:11:12,100 S1: throw you into the middle of the deep end of 197 00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:14,620 S1: the pool here, Joanna, because I'm going to ask you. 198 00:11:14,660 --> 00:11:14,860 S3: The. 199 00:11:15,300 --> 00:11:19,540 S1: Big question. What? What the wise woman? What in the 200 00:11:19,540 --> 00:11:22,140 S1: world is this story all about? What do you say? 201 00:11:22,340 --> 00:11:26,540 S3: Well, that's a great question. Um, I would say that 202 00:11:26,900 --> 00:11:29,700 S3: the story is about kind of two things. It's about 203 00:11:30,020 --> 00:11:33,860 S3: parenting in 1 in 1 sense. And then also how 204 00:11:33,860 --> 00:11:36,820 S3: the wise woman, um, who is kind of like a 205 00:11:36,820 --> 00:11:41,500 S3: Christ type in the story, undertakes to redeem these two 206 00:11:41,540 --> 00:11:44,660 S3: little girls who have kind of had both the result 207 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,480 S3: of bad parenting and their sinful natures. Um, working in them. 208 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:54,760 S3: And so the wise woman is trying to, first of all, 209 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,440 S3: to show them their, the, the ugly parts of themselves 210 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,720 S3: that they don't see, and then to offer them the 211 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,439 S3: way to be redeemed from that. Um. 212 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,959 S1: And in doing that, then as you read it, you 213 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:12,760 S1: can't help but see yourself as the, as the person 214 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,040 S1: who needs that kind of change too. Right. 215 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,959 S3: Oh, yes. Yeah. That was definitely one of the things 216 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,959 S3: that I remembered most about reading this. This novel for 217 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:27,559 S3: the first time in Doctor Rose's class was, um, yeah, 218 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:32,080 S3: even a particular scene where, uh, Agnes is shown herself 219 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:36,160 S3: inside of the globe, um, where she's kind of just 220 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,199 S3: stuck with only herself. She's a very self-centered and conceited child. 221 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,980 S3: She's not, um, out of control or she doesn't lose 222 00:12:44,980 --> 00:12:49,780 S3: her temper like Rosamund does. But she's very conceited. And 223 00:12:50,020 --> 00:12:52,540 S3: so the wise woman puts her into just this ball 224 00:12:52,540 --> 00:12:56,220 S3: where she can only, only see herself. The only thing 225 00:12:56,260 --> 00:12:58,939 S3: she can see is her own reflection, and she just 226 00:12:58,980 --> 00:13:03,020 S3: is stuck with herself. And she realizes how, um, yeah. 227 00:13:03,059 --> 00:13:05,260 S3: Just not pleasant of a person she is to be 228 00:13:05,260 --> 00:13:09,660 S3: stuck with forever. So, um, yeah, it definitely shows you yourself. 229 00:13:09,660 --> 00:13:10,540 S3: But yeah. 230 00:13:10,580 --> 00:13:10,740 S2: It. 231 00:13:10,740 --> 00:13:11,699 S4: Shows you your. 232 00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:14,339 S2: Wormy heart regardless. It's a quote right out of the book. 233 00:13:14,380 --> 00:13:16,260 S2: Your wormy heart, I love that. 234 00:13:16,700 --> 00:13:19,979 S1: So the two girls, then one is born of royalty. 235 00:13:20,020 --> 00:13:24,580 S1: She's the princess and the other is as a shepherd 236 00:13:24,580 --> 00:13:29,540 S1: and shepherdess as parents. So they're wildly different from class. 237 00:13:29,540 --> 00:13:32,900 S1: But they both have the same problem, basically, right? 238 00:13:33,020 --> 00:13:36,820 S2: They do. They're both. Narcissism can happen anywhere. Yeah, and 239 00:13:36,820 --> 00:13:39,020 S2: it looks we were. Joanne and I were talking before 240 00:13:39,020 --> 00:13:42,020 S2: we came on the air. And you know, they look 241 00:13:42,020 --> 00:13:45,800 S2: so different because Rosamund is an insufferable brat, you know? 242 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,240 S2: I mean, she's just horrible. She just shrieks all the time. 243 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,480 S2: And it takes the bulk of the. She throws. 244 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,360 S1: The rabbit. What's the thing about throwing a rabbit at 245 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:54,720 S1: her mom? 246 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,839 S2: We talked about that, about her cruelty to animals, and 247 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,480 S2: I thought, Joanna, your. I said, boy, this is a 248 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,120 S2: hard detail to put in a children's book. But you 249 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,360 S2: had a very good. Something very good to say about that. 250 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:05,959 S2: Go ahead. 251 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,960 S3: I think because. Well, by the end of the story, 252 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,360 S3: we can see that Rosamund is fully redeemed and fully, um, 253 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,840 S3: restored to being a pleasant person, and Agnes is not. 254 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,160 S3: And so I think MacDonald puts that detail about that 255 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,400 S3: animal cruelty in there, so that you don't just start 256 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,480 S3: pitying Rosamund from the beginning. He wants you to see 257 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,680 S3: how grotesque she is. Just like, um, just like Agnes. 258 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,720 S3: And there might be a temptation to just say, well, 259 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,320 S3: she had horrible parents. And so, yes, she has no culpability. 260 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,440 S3: But MacDonald never does that. The wise woman never treats 261 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,380 S3: them that way, even though she recognizes the failures of 262 00:14:43,380 --> 00:14:46,020 S3: the parents and places blame on the parents for their failures. 263 00:14:46,020 --> 00:14:49,580 S3: She also is saying like they're sinful and they need 264 00:14:49,580 --> 00:14:52,300 S3: to be changed. Their hearts are what need to be changed. 265 00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:55,540 S2: In fact, she says to the parents of Rosamund, you're 50% 266 00:14:55,540 --> 00:14:58,300 S2: of the problem. She doesn't say they're all of the problem. 267 00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:01,420 S2: They're horrible parents. And in fact, we were talking about 268 00:15:01,420 --> 00:15:03,580 S2: the issue of these two types of children. I think 269 00:15:03,580 --> 00:15:06,700 S2: every parent should read this honestly, because their children are 270 00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:11,700 S2: represented everywhere. Uh, and I just read a line in Chris, 271 00:15:11,980 --> 00:15:14,380 S2: you can correct this. I'm not a parent, so it's 272 00:15:14,380 --> 00:15:16,860 S2: very smug of me to say this. My, I've always 273 00:15:16,860 --> 00:15:19,180 S2: said my children would be serial killers. So that's just 274 00:15:19,220 --> 00:15:22,140 S2: let's just get that on the table. But you know 275 00:15:22,340 --> 00:15:24,900 S2: that this is the worst generation of parenting that maybe 276 00:15:24,940 --> 00:15:27,420 S2: has ever been. And, and a lot of it is 277 00:15:27,420 --> 00:15:31,940 S2: because they don't they don't care enough to correct. They 278 00:15:31,940 --> 00:15:36,060 S2: don't care enough to be consistent. They allow the coaxing. 279 00:15:36,060 --> 00:15:39,640 S2: So here's this child that do the parents even love her. 280 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,720 S2: The king and queen, they're not involved with her. 281 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,240 S3: There's no indication that they ever show her. 282 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:44,680 S2: Ever show. 283 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,040 S3: Her love on a personal level other than giving her things. 284 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,000 S2: Giving her things. And then there's this shepherd and shepherdess 285 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,840 S2: that can't give anything live remotely. But the trouble is, 286 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,000 S2: this child has grown up with so much sadness. Self sadness. 287 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:57,040 S2: She's so smug. 288 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,360 S3: And they talked about like, how the parents would just 289 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,120 S3: repeat everything she said as if it was the smartest thing. 290 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:03,720 S4: Yeah. 291 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,360 S2: And my child is so graceful. And in fact, they, they, 292 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,800 S2: when they finally have Rosamund in their home, she's really 293 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,600 S2: got some of the same faults of their child, but 294 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,080 S2: they think are awful in Rosamund. But their own child 295 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:17,960 S2: was just just wonderful. 296 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,680 S3: So there's a part where um the shepherdess says, man, 297 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,040 S3: this girl, she's almost as conceited as. And then she 298 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,440 S3: stops because she was about to say Agnes. But. 299 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:28,840 S4: Yes. Yeah. She holds. 300 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:29,240 S2: Herself. 301 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:29,640 S4: Back. 302 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,600 S2: And, and it's that that issue of if we love 303 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,840 S2: our children, we correct them, you know, and I think 304 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,940 S2: of a children that are raised on screens today and 305 00:16:38,940 --> 00:16:42,540 S2: completely ignored and indulged and in fact, shut up with screens. 306 00:16:42,540 --> 00:16:43,940 S2: And of course, you know, I have to always get 307 00:16:43,940 --> 00:16:46,340 S2: that in there, Chris, but we got to have the 308 00:16:46,740 --> 00:16:52,580 S2: screen statement. Yeah. So yes. And that that whole theme 309 00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:55,500 S2: of being somebody, you know, everybody thinks they're a somebody 310 00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:58,660 S2: and today everybody thinks they're somebody. I mean, look at influencers. 311 00:16:58,660 --> 00:17:01,820 S2: What on earth is an influencer? You know, really. And, 312 00:17:01,820 --> 00:17:06,940 S2: and I think of Emily Dickinson's poem, um, you know, 313 00:17:06,980 --> 00:17:09,900 S2: are are you nobody? I'm nobody. Are you nobody too? 314 00:17:09,940 --> 00:17:13,540 S2: How dreadful to be somebody. How public like a frog 315 00:17:13,740 --> 00:17:18,020 S2: to tell one's name. The livelong day to an admiring bog. 316 00:17:18,859 --> 00:17:21,300 S2: And there we are, you know, telling our names. And 317 00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:23,580 S2: that's what we have to be cured of. 318 00:17:24,060 --> 00:17:29,540 S1: Okay, so Agnes loses her temper and and, well, no. 319 00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:30,940 S2: No, Rosalind does. 320 00:17:31,460 --> 00:17:34,940 S1: But Agnes. And on this where I am. No, don't 321 00:17:34,940 --> 00:17:38,000 S1: correct me, because it says. Then Agnes lost her temper 322 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,320 S1: and put out her hands to seize the little girl. 323 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,200 S1: But lo, the little girl was gone the moment she 324 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,600 S1: hated her. It flashed upon her with a sickening disgust 325 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,960 S1: that the child was not another, but herself, her somebody, 326 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,720 S1: and that she was now shut up with her forever 327 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,880 S1: and ever. No more fun, no matter where you go. 328 00:17:58,920 --> 00:17:59,679 S1: There you are. 329 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,560 S2: There you are. Yes she is. So I think one 330 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,600 S2: of the reasons I think we talked about this to, 331 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,840 S2: one of the reasons she is not fully redeemed. We. 332 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,520 S2: And I think it's so good that it's left uncertain, 333 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,520 S2: is that she is so shallow. She has no. And 334 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:21,440 S2: she has never read stories and. And whereas Rosamond, as 335 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:22,320 S2: you pointed out. 336 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,240 S3: Yeah. She thought that she thought that the wise woman 337 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,120 S3: was an ogress going to eat her. Rosamond did, because 338 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,240 S3: she'd heard stories of these scary creatures. But um it 339 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,520 S3: said Agnes didn't even know enough to be afraid. She. 340 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,859 S3: And in fact, it says like when the wise woman 341 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:41,419 S3: kind of kind of kidnaps both of them. Um, the. 342 00:18:41,859 --> 00:18:43,380 S1: When the cloak with the. 343 00:18:43,420 --> 00:18:43,740 S3: Black. 344 00:18:43,740 --> 00:18:45,260 S1: Cloak and pulls them in and. 345 00:18:45,660 --> 00:18:46,340 S5: Takes them away. 346 00:18:46,540 --> 00:18:51,020 S3: Yep. And when she takes Rosamund, she sets her down 347 00:18:51,020 --> 00:18:54,660 S3: when Rosamund kicks and. But she, she says that she 348 00:18:54,660 --> 00:18:58,020 S3: knows that Rosamund will run after her because she's afraid and. 349 00:18:58,420 --> 00:19:01,139 S3: But when she's carrying Agnes away, it says she carried 350 00:19:01,140 --> 00:19:02,980 S3: her the entire way because she knew if she set 351 00:19:02,980 --> 00:19:04,860 S3: her down, she'd be too complacent to follow her. 352 00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:06,260 S2: Isn't that interesting? 353 00:19:06,540 --> 00:19:07,060 S5: Yes. 354 00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:11,940 S2: That is so really in. I really have always felt 355 00:19:11,940 --> 00:19:16,060 S2: like Rosamund was the least dangerous of the two, but 356 00:19:16,060 --> 00:19:19,700 S2: I've been corrected by reading interpretive stuff about it. They're 357 00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:23,780 S2: both dangerous. Rosamund is horribly dangerous in an unredeemed state. 358 00:19:23,780 --> 00:19:26,060 S1: But she's overt with it. You can see it. 359 00:19:26,220 --> 00:19:28,260 S2: You can see it. And so like, when I have 360 00:19:28,260 --> 00:19:30,940 S2: students that are so proud, they won't talk, that's much 361 00:19:30,940 --> 00:19:33,540 S2: more dangerous to me than the person that never shuts up. 362 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:35,720 S2: It's got their hand in the air all the time. 363 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,280 S1: So which one is Joanne? She's right in the middle. 364 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,920 S2: Joanne was just so good that it never looks bad. 365 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,920 S1: Well, okay, so we're talking about the wise woman. This 366 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,040 S1: is exactly what I wanted to do. And I had 367 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,320 S1: I had problems with this story. And I'll tell you 368 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,199 S1: about those if we have time, but I want to 369 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,800 S1: get to your phone calls. Donna is in Ohio. Donna, 370 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:55,960 S1: why did you call today? 371 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:01,000 S6: Hello. I am not a big reader, but this book, 372 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,439 S6: I couldn't put it down. I read it in. Yeah, 373 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,280 S6: in three days. That's good for me. 374 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:07,720 S2: I'm so glad. 375 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,800 S6: So I wanted to ask you about the part where 376 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:18,640 S6: it said about writing off on the back of a devil. 377 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,280 S6: It was on page. Oh my goodness. Yeah, I lost 378 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:21,840 S6: my page. 379 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,080 S2: I don't that's not coming to mind nor to Joanna's. 380 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,320 S6: Oh, oh, I gotta find it. 381 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,200 S1: Well, the quote that I have here is. But there, 382 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,340 S1: there are victories far worse than defeat. 383 00:20:34,380 --> 00:20:34,899 S6: Right there. 384 00:20:35,380 --> 00:20:36,140 S1: Yes, right. 385 00:20:36,180 --> 00:20:38,859 S2: There are victories. Far worse than what? Than defeats. 386 00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:39,860 S5: Yeah, yeah. 387 00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:44,020 S2: So getting away with something or go ahead. 388 00:20:44,060 --> 00:20:46,300 S3: Yeah. I think it was talking about like the shepherd 389 00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:50,180 S3: and shepherdess there. It was saying that when they just 390 00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:52,859 S3: gave in to Agnes and let her have it, and 391 00:20:52,859 --> 00:20:55,260 S3: it seemed like a win because there was no fight, 392 00:20:55,260 --> 00:20:57,580 S3: there was no argument. It would have been better for 393 00:20:57,580 --> 00:21:00,340 S3: them to challenge her and to actually, because she was 394 00:21:00,340 --> 00:21:03,859 S3: just winning every time and thinking that she had the right. 395 00:21:03,980 --> 00:21:07,899 S2: It's that thing about about making somebody be quiet or, 396 00:21:08,340 --> 00:21:11,420 S2: or eliminating the conflict whatever way you can and putting 397 00:21:11,420 --> 00:21:15,780 S2: them on a screen rather than pursuing it is hard. 398 00:21:15,780 --> 00:21:17,580 S2: They say the most important thing you can do with 399 00:21:17,580 --> 00:21:20,300 S2: a child is to not give up. You must be 400 00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:23,300 S2: absolutely consistent in what you have said is going to happen. 401 00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:25,379 S2: If they don't do what they're supposed to do. 402 00:21:26,340 --> 00:21:29,620 S1: Isn't that what we're talking about, though, with with the 403 00:21:29,619 --> 00:21:33,119 S1: comfort we think even with God, it's like you're supposed 404 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,360 S1: to make my life comfortable. And if I have problems 405 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,480 S1: and I struggle with this or that or the other thing, 406 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,520 S1: we think, well, he must not like us. He's going 407 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,679 S1: to eat us, you know, like the wise woman. 408 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:45,080 S2: Suspicious. Yeah. 409 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:50,960 S1: But no, this is this is, uh, bringing about character 410 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,360 S1: and perseverance in you that can't be found in any 411 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,160 S1: other way. Isn't that part of it? 412 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:57,760 S7: Oh. 413 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,880 S2: I mean, where would we be? I mean, where would 414 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,200 S2: we be? That's why parents are supposed to be such 415 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,000 S2: a model of a loving but insistent God. It teaches 416 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,200 S2: them their character. 417 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,800 S1: Okay, so, Donna, I see also the place where the mirror. 418 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,280 S1: You mentioned the place of the mirror. Tell me why 419 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:18,280 S1: that struck you. 420 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,840 S6: Oh, it struck me because it's like when we see. 421 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,000 S6: I mean, she was seeing her sin and and for us, 422 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,880 S6: when you become a believer and you are redeemed and 423 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,140 S6: just look back and see, wow, how ugly. Yes, your 424 00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:37,460 S6: sin is in the face of God. 425 00:22:37,820 --> 00:22:38,619 S1: Okay, so that. 426 00:22:38,619 --> 00:22:39,900 S6: Section really hit me. 427 00:22:39,940 --> 00:22:42,660 S1: Yes, says the wise woman caught up the little mirror 428 00:22:42,660 --> 00:22:46,740 S1: and held it before her. Agnes saw her. Somebody the 429 00:22:46,740 --> 00:22:51,980 S1: very embodiment of miserable conceit and ugly ill temper. She 430 00:22:51,980 --> 00:22:55,300 S1: gave such a scream of horror that the wise woman 431 00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:58,820 S1: pitied her, and laying aside the mirror, took her upon 432 00:22:58,820 --> 00:23:01,820 S1: her knees and talked to her most kindly and solemnly, 433 00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:04,980 S1: so that you can see in that you know this 434 00:23:04,980 --> 00:23:09,620 S1: relationship that the woman has, Joanna, that she is comforting. 435 00:23:09,619 --> 00:23:11,820 S1: But at the same time she let her see the 436 00:23:11,820 --> 00:23:12,860 S1: ugly part, right? 437 00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:13,500 S6: Yes. 438 00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:16,980 S3: And I think there's something with Rosamond too, earlier on, 439 00:23:16,980 --> 00:23:20,139 S3: where something like a mirror is shown to her and 440 00:23:21,060 --> 00:23:23,859 S3: breaks it and doesn't want to see it, she shatters 441 00:23:23,859 --> 00:23:26,740 S3: it in pieces. But it's interesting because Agnes, after she 442 00:23:26,740 --> 00:23:30,730 S3: looks like right after that passage, it talks about how 443 00:23:31,570 --> 00:23:34,609 S3: while the wise woman was talking to her, instead of 444 00:23:34,609 --> 00:23:39,050 S3: resolving to be better inside, she was just internally resolving 445 00:23:39,210 --> 00:23:41,650 S3: to not let it show. She said, better, I'm going 446 00:23:41,650 --> 00:23:44,250 S3: to be a hypocrite and just to cover up. And 447 00:23:44,250 --> 00:23:46,450 S3: so it's interesting, the two reactions. 448 00:23:46,609 --> 00:23:49,330 S1: To manage your what you look like. 449 00:23:49,369 --> 00:23:49,970 S5: Your veneer. 450 00:23:50,050 --> 00:23:50,889 S1: Than change. 451 00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:51,770 S5: Than really than. 452 00:23:51,810 --> 00:23:57,010 S2: Absolutely change. And at the end with Rosalind, she says, uh, 453 00:23:57,290 --> 00:24:01,810 S2: how could you love such an ugly, ill tempered, rude, 454 00:24:01,810 --> 00:24:03,730 S2: hateful little wretch? 455 00:24:04,130 --> 00:24:04,730 S5: Yes. 456 00:24:05,090 --> 00:24:06,210 S3: She sees herself. 457 00:24:06,530 --> 00:24:09,449 S2: She sees herself and she glows. And it says that 458 00:24:09,450 --> 00:24:13,730 S2: her impertinent nose is better. She looks less squirrelly. She 459 00:24:13,730 --> 00:24:14,689 S2: looks better. 460 00:24:14,730 --> 00:24:15,129 S5: Yeah, she. 461 00:24:15,170 --> 00:24:16,250 S2: Actually looks better. 462 00:24:16,810 --> 00:24:17,050 S5: Yeah. 463 00:24:17,090 --> 00:24:20,570 S1: Donna, I what you said about reading this, that you're 464 00:24:20,570 --> 00:24:23,250 S1: not a big reader, that you don't, you know, read 465 00:24:23,250 --> 00:24:26,609 S1: that much, but this one grabbed you. I'm so glad 466 00:24:26,609 --> 00:24:30,190 S1: you called, because that's exactly what we want to happen. 467 00:24:30,430 --> 00:24:33,030 S1: In the conversations that we have with the book club. 468 00:24:33,030 --> 00:24:37,270 S1: We read Shane in June, we're reading The Wise Woman 469 00:24:37,270 --> 00:24:40,270 S1: this month, and then in October, there's another one coming, 470 00:24:40,310 --> 00:24:43,710 S1: and we'll unveil that here in just a little bit. 471 00:24:43,910 --> 00:24:48,310 S1: But I want to be honest, because I had a 472 00:24:48,310 --> 00:24:51,790 S1: hard time getting into this book. And I don't know, 473 00:24:51,790 --> 00:24:55,709 S1: maybe it's because I'm not a a wise woman or. 474 00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:56,429 S5: A little. 475 00:24:56,430 --> 00:25:00,390 S1: Girl, a little wretch. Although I did see myself in this. 476 00:25:00,390 --> 00:25:03,990 S1: I've never read McDonald. I've seen quotes by him. I've 477 00:25:03,990 --> 00:25:07,550 S1: heard the famous, you know, the L'Engle and Lewis and 478 00:25:07,550 --> 00:25:11,070 S1: Tolkien that and I have heard this. But there was 479 00:25:11,070 --> 00:25:16,710 S1: something fairytale like about this that reminded me of Grimms 480 00:25:16,710 --> 00:25:20,510 S1: or Kings and Queens. There's royalty, there are dark, foreboding woods. 481 00:25:20,510 --> 00:25:24,710 S1: There are animals that snarl hyenas and scary enough to 482 00:25:24,750 --> 00:25:26,850 S1: make you not want to go into the dark woods. 483 00:25:26,850 --> 00:25:29,890 S1: There are children who go missing or are seemingly on 484 00:25:29,930 --> 00:25:32,570 S1: their own. They have to find their own way, figure 485 00:25:32,570 --> 00:25:36,410 S1: out who they really are, and then a character who 486 00:25:36,410 --> 00:25:41,410 S1: comes along and who doesn't just rescue them but shows 487 00:25:41,410 --> 00:25:45,169 S1: them themselves, which is the wise woman. And that's what 488 00:25:45,170 --> 00:25:47,170 S1: we're talking about today. So I'm going to get you 489 00:25:47,170 --> 00:25:49,409 S1: two to comment on that. More of your calls coming 490 00:25:49,410 --> 00:26:05,250 S1: up straight ahead on Moody Radio. Rosie's book Club 2.0 491 00:26:05,250 --> 00:26:08,810 S1: with Doctor Rosalie DeRose, along with one of her students, 492 00:26:08,810 --> 00:26:12,609 S1: junior at Moody Bible Institute, Joanna Odeen. You can find 493 00:26:12,609 --> 00:26:19,330 S1: out more about them@chris.org. Chris favorite.org. The book is George 494 00:26:19,330 --> 00:26:24,130 S1: MacDonald's The Wise Woman, and Raj is in Oklahoma. Hi, Raj. 495 00:26:24,170 --> 00:26:24,810 S1: Go ahead. 496 00:26:26,190 --> 00:26:29,830 S8: Chris, you're not the only one that has problems reading 497 00:26:29,869 --> 00:26:35,590 S8: female literature. I had the same thing. And the problem is, 498 00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:39,990 S8: I get too hung up on the the intricacies of 499 00:26:39,990 --> 00:26:43,150 S8: the wording and this. And there's a woman that what 500 00:26:43,150 --> 00:26:46,109 S8: I have to do is, and it helps me is 501 00:26:46,109 --> 00:26:49,869 S8: step back and get a global picture. So, for example, 502 00:26:49,869 --> 00:26:55,830 S8: Rosamond the Princess, she was raised by parents that were privileged, 503 00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:59,590 S8: that were royalty so that maybe they didn't know any better. 504 00:26:59,590 --> 00:27:02,390 S8: So they put all of their values on this kid, 505 00:27:02,390 --> 00:27:06,150 S8: give this kid everything they want because that's what parents do. 506 00:27:06,470 --> 00:27:08,910 S8: What I had to do is figure out how, how, 507 00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:11,510 S8: what am I going to get from this story? And 508 00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:15,109 S8: here's what happened to me. Uh, here's a privileged girl. 509 00:27:15,230 --> 00:27:18,710 S8: Then she's kind of spoiled. Now I look back at 510 00:27:18,710 --> 00:27:22,310 S8: my life. What can I get from this story that 511 00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:26,369 S8: is applicable to my life. And so now I understand 512 00:27:26,369 --> 00:27:30,250 S8: maybe why my parents did what they did to me 513 00:27:30,290 --> 00:27:34,369 S8: raising my brother and I. They were suffering from certain things. 514 00:27:34,369 --> 00:27:37,330 S8: They didn't know better. So what I, what I found 515 00:27:37,330 --> 00:27:40,090 S8: out is what, what can I get that's going to 516 00:27:40,090 --> 00:27:44,250 S8: be applicable to me, to understand me and the world better. 517 00:27:44,570 --> 00:27:46,810 S8: And so that really helped me. 518 00:27:47,090 --> 00:27:48,690 S1: Okay, Rosie, what do you think of that? 519 00:27:49,050 --> 00:27:51,890 S2: Well, I have to take a deep breath about the 520 00:27:51,890 --> 00:27:57,010 S2: female narrator. It's written by a man I want to. 521 00:27:57,770 --> 00:27:59,450 S1: Yeah, with a long beard. 522 00:27:59,609 --> 00:28:02,010 S2: Um, you know, I don't. 523 00:28:02,050 --> 00:28:02,250 S5: But. 524 00:28:02,250 --> 00:28:05,649 S1: It is. I think. What is what you're saying is, Raj, 525 00:28:06,010 --> 00:28:11,890 S1: that it's it's female oriented. It's a female heavy story. 526 00:28:11,890 --> 00:28:14,370 S1: There are a lot of women in the story that 527 00:28:14,369 --> 00:28:18,050 S1: have big main characters there. Okay. Keep going. Rosie. 528 00:28:18,810 --> 00:28:21,010 S2: Uh, yeah. And we've been reading a lot of male 529 00:28:21,010 --> 00:28:23,709 S2: stories most of our lives and we have done it 530 00:28:23,710 --> 00:28:26,869 S2: quite well. I would just add with a little edge. 531 00:28:27,109 --> 00:28:33,150 S2: But anyway, moving along, um, this, this is this. I 532 00:28:33,150 --> 00:28:36,350 S2: understand the issue of it being didactic. I don't, I 533 00:28:36,470 --> 00:28:38,710 S2: don't totally understand the whole female thing because I think 534 00:28:38,710 --> 00:28:42,310 S2: the principles apply to all children everywhere and to parents 535 00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:45,150 S2: who raise both kinds of children, both of whom have 536 00:28:45,310 --> 00:28:49,830 S2: issues with selfishness and narcissism because of their handling. But 537 00:28:50,150 --> 00:28:52,510 S2: it could be that it's just not your type of writing. 538 00:28:52,510 --> 00:28:54,470 S2: I have always said there are things that are not 539 00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:57,830 S2: our type, and we don't have to love them. You know? 540 00:28:57,870 --> 00:28:59,750 S2: We don't have to love everything, even if somebody has 541 00:28:59,750 --> 00:29:03,590 S2: said it is important. But I do think that she, 542 00:29:03,950 --> 00:29:09,470 S2: MacDonald does what he does with such, um, quotability and 543 00:29:09,470 --> 00:29:13,190 S2: he gets at the heart of something that is generational today, 544 00:29:13,630 --> 00:29:18,270 S2: the easiness of not taking parenting seriously as an act 545 00:29:18,270 --> 00:29:20,930 S2: of love and as a surrogate of God in the 546 00:29:20,930 --> 00:29:23,290 S2: lives of these children. And so I think he gets 547 00:29:23,290 --> 00:29:25,850 S2: to two issues in the 19th century that are probably 548 00:29:25,850 --> 00:29:28,570 S2: more current now than they were then. And one is 549 00:29:28,570 --> 00:29:33,690 S2: that the acquisition nature of raising children with things, and 550 00:29:33,690 --> 00:29:37,250 S2: the second one is of making them too special. And 551 00:29:37,250 --> 00:29:41,450 S2: so those things are so applicable. But beyond that, and 552 00:29:41,490 --> 00:29:44,570 S2: Michael sent me a copy of a chapter out of 553 00:29:46,170 --> 00:29:48,530 S2: a book of essays written by a former Moody student. 554 00:29:48,530 --> 00:29:51,530 S2: His name is Seth Postell, very bright guy about how 555 00:29:51,530 --> 00:29:54,690 S2: this is a personification of, of, of wisdom right out 556 00:29:54,730 --> 00:29:58,130 S2: of the book of Proverbs. And if you read Proverbs 319, 557 00:29:58,130 --> 00:30:02,250 S2: by wisdom the Lord laid the earth's foundation by understanding, 558 00:30:02,250 --> 00:30:05,250 S2: he set the heavens in place. And if you follow 559 00:30:05,250 --> 00:30:08,969 S2: that up in in the question becomes, is wisdom eternal 560 00:30:08,970 --> 00:30:12,730 S2: or created? And wisdom is co-eternal with God. And so 561 00:30:12,730 --> 00:30:16,730 S2: I think MacDonald understood that wisdom was co-eternal with God. 562 00:30:16,730 --> 00:30:18,850 S2: And you see that particularly. And you can read this 563 00:30:18,850 --> 00:30:25,030 S2: for yourselves in Proverbs 827 to 30, and therefore that 564 00:30:25,030 --> 00:30:29,910 S2: quality is absolutely crucial to the life of a Christian 565 00:30:29,910 --> 00:30:32,710 S2: who truly is going to live a life that is 566 00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:35,590 S2: holy and that will be able to endure all the 567 00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:39,030 S2: hardships that life gives on this earth. And these children 568 00:30:39,030 --> 00:30:42,350 S2: are neither of them capable. One, because she has never 569 00:30:42,350 --> 00:30:44,550 S2: learned to respect anything. She is a center of her 570 00:30:44,550 --> 00:30:47,950 S2: own universe. And the other one, because she doesn't know 571 00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:52,310 S2: anything outside of herself. And so the impartation of wisdom 572 00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:55,230 S2: on the behalf of parents is absolutely crucial, and they 573 00:30:55,230 --> 00:30:58,070 S2: need to dedicate themselves to it. And it's hard. I 574 00:30:58,070 --> 00:31:00,750 S2: say that with great respect. I can't think of anything 575 00:31:00,750 --> 00:31:02,590 S2: harder than managing toddlers. 576 00:31:04,630 --> 00:31:07,990 S1: I think Raj put his finger on something that that 577 00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:12,950 S1: I'd struggled with, though, and that was his question was, 578 00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:14,950 S1: what can I do? What can I learn from this? 579 00:31:14,990 --> 00:31:16,030 S5: What can I do with this? 580 00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:17,910 S1: What can I apply to my own life? 581 00:31:17,950 --> 00:31:18,850 S5: That was very good. 582 00:31:19,050 --> 00:31:22,210 S1: And for me, though, if I come into a story 583 00:31:22,250 --> 00:31:26,370 S1: thinking that way, it pulls me out of the story 584 00:31:26,650 --> 00:31:28,930 S1: and it does not let me be a part of 585 00:31:28,930 --> 00:31:31,930 S1: the story. It doesn't. It makes me observe and it 586 00:31:31,930 --> 00:31:34,170 S1: makes me take notes, but it doesn't make me a 587 00:31:34,170 --> 00:31:36,690 S1: part of the story. And I think that and it's 588 00:31:36,690 --> 00:31:40,210 S1: partly because of the, the era that it was written in. 589 00:31:40,210 --> 00:31:42,050 S1: I've read some other stories that were written in the 590 00:31:42,090 --> 00:31:45,890 S1: 1800s as very much the same way. It's very descriptive. 591 00:31:45,930 --> 00:31:49,130 S1: You kind of observe, but you're not right. You're not 592 00:31:49,130 --> 00:31:53,850 S1: there except for the hyenas and the and the snarling, 593 00:31:53,890 --> 00:31:56,810 S1: you know, the darkness out and the woods. But it's 594 00:31:56,850 --> 00:31:59,810 S1: I want to be pulled into the story. And there 595 00:31:59,810 --> 00:32:03,210 S1: was a certain sense that I felt like I was 596 00:32:03,210 --> 00:32:06,130 S1: just always observing it. Joanna, what do you think? 597 00:32:07,050 --> 00:32:10,290 S3: Um, I, I was one of the people who read 598 00:32:10,290 --> 00:32:13,650 S3: the book in two days. So I think I, I 599 00:32:13,690 --> 00:32:16,570 S3: think because I tended to put myself in the place 600 00:32:16,570 --> 00:32:20,150 S3: of the two girls, like from the beginning. Um, I 601 00:32:20,190 --> 00:32:23,430 S3: think that drew me into the story and I was 602 00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:27,070 S3: intrigued by the figure of the wise woman, I think. Well, 603 00:32:27,390 --> 00:32:30,950 S3: for one, maybe another reason why the, the female thing 604 00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:32,950 S3: was a little hard is we're not used to seeing 605 00:32:32,990 --> 00:32:37,590 S3: like Christ figures in books or like God figures be female. 606 00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:40,030 S3: And so I think there was something kind of intriguing 607 00:32:40,030 --> 00:32:43,510 S3: about that to see how that played out. And, um, 608 00:32:43,870 --> 00:32:50,310 S3: also to see like how, yeah, that interacts with like 609 00:32:50,350 --> 00:32:52,670 S3: parenting and things, which I guess it's a little different 610 00:32:52,670 --> 00:32:54,590 S3: if you're not in the phase where you are a parent, 611 00:32:54,590 --> 00:32:56,750 S3: but even as a person who's not a parent, I 612 00:32:56,790 --> 00:33:00,390 S3: think I was kind of drawn in by that, that aspect. 613 00:33:01,030 --> 00:33:05,190 S2: And for me, the figure, the wise woman is utterly compelling. 614 00:33:05,350 --> 00:33:08,870 S2: I the love she administered, the way she sang to 615 00:33:08,910 --> 00:33:13,110 S2: that difficult child, the way she would persist. And the 616 00:33:13,110 --> 00:33:16,770 S2: minute I mean, there was the slightest gesture. At first 617 00:33:16,770 --> 00:33:19,570 S2: did the girl did. Toward good or virtue. She would 618 00:33:19,570 --> 00:33:21,850 S2: reward it. And then she knew to get harder and 619 00:33:21,850 --> 00:33:25,450 S2: harder and harder. And the way she tried to develop 620 00:33:25,450 --> 00:33:28,650 S2: their imagination with that room that they opened into and 621 00:33:28,650 --> 00:33:32,850 S2: what they saw, and her utter patience, and saying, I, 622 00:33:32,890 --> 00:33:36,130 S2: I would never, I, I forgive you because I had 623 00:33:36,130 --> 00:33:38,650 S2: to do this to get you to be redeemed. And 624 00:33:38,690 --> 00:33:41,050 S2: I guess for me, it just became a very personal. 625 00:33:41,050 --> 00:33:43,130 S2: It made me see the face of Christ. I've been 626 00:33:43,130 --> 00:33:45,330 S2: saying that the last two semesters have made me see 627 00:33:45,330 --> 00:33:47,610 S2: the face of Christ in the literature I teach in 628 00:33:47,610 --> 00:33:51,010 S2: ways that I've never experienced before, and part of it's 629 00:33:51,010 --> 00:33:53,570 S2: because of the students in the classes. But this one 630 00:33:53,570 --> 00:33:56,330 S2: just I could cry sometimes at the character of the 631 00:33:56,330 --> 00:33:58,650 S2: wise woman. So I can't totally relate. And that's okay. 632 00:33:58,690 --> 00:34:01,290 S2: You know, we're very we're very different when we come 633 00:34:01,290 --> 00:34:03,050 S2: to to books, I wonder. 634 00:34:03,570 --> 00:34:04,170 S1: Go ahead. 635 00:34:04,210 --> 00:34:06,530 S3: Oh, I was going to say, I wonder also if 636 00:34:06,770 --> 00:34:08,890 S3: because we I was in a class with doctor De 637 00:34:08,890 --> 00:34:11,170 S3: Rosa called Images of Christ. In the novels we read 638 00:34:11,210 --> 00:34:13,670 S3: a lot of novels with different Christ types in Isotypes 639 00:34:13,670 --> 00:34:18,630 S3: in them, and some of them are more perfect than others. Um, like. 640 00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:19,350 S5: This one. 641 00:34:19,350 --> 00:34:22,030 S3: Is. And the wise woman is definitely like a perfect 642 00:34:22,030 --> 00:34:25,029 S3: Christ figure picture. And I wonder if maybe some people 643 00:34:25,350 --> 00:34:28,150 S3: find that a little less edgy or less relatable because 644 00:34:28,150 --> 00:34:31,430 S3: of that, but also it maybe is a clearer, like 645 00:34:31,830 --> 00:34:34,670 S3: more clearly transposed onto Christ than other. 646 00:34:34,830 --> 00:34:36,550 S5: It's more allegorical. Yeah. It's yeah. 647 00:34:37,070 --> 00:34:39,230 S1: Well, he is known MacDonald is known as kind of 648 00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:43,430 S1: the father of fantasy writing. And at the end there's 649 00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:49,750 S1: this Rosamond sees this little girl, um, and the child says, 650 00:34:49,750 --> 00:34:53,430 S1: look at me. And as Rosamond looked, the child began 651 00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:57,710 S1: like the flower to grow larger quickly through every gradation 652 00:34:57,710 --> 00:35:02,350 S1: of growth she passed until she stood before her. A woman, 653 00:35:02,350 --> 00:35:06,589 S1: perfectly beautiful, neither old nor young, for hers was the 654 00:35:06,590 --> 00:35:11,750 S1: old age of everlasting youth. Rosamond was utterly enchanted. But 655 00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:15,890 S1: where is the wise woman? Asked Rosamund, looking all about. Here. 656 00:35:16,090 --> 00:35:19,970 S1: Said the lady, and Rosamond, looking again, saw the wise 657 00:35:19,969 --> 00:35:24,569 S1: woman folded as usual in her long, dark cloak. It 658 00:35:24,570 --> 00:35:27,529 S1: was you then, after all, she cried in delight, and 659 00:35:27,530 --> 00:35:31,290 S1: kneeled before her, burying her face in her garments. It's all. 660 00:35:31,290 --> 00:35:36,250 S1: It always is me, after all, said the wise woman, smiling. And. 661 00:35:36,250 --> 00:35:39,489 S1: It was you all the time. It always is me 662 00:35:39,650 --> 00:35:40,610 S1: all the time. 663 00:35:40,650 --> 00:35:40,970 S5: Oh! 664 00:35:41,810 --> 00:35:45,489 S1: And then she says this thing about the. The sheep. 665 00:35:45,489 --> 00:35:49,370 S1: When the sheep that was looking at at you, I 666 00:35:49,370 --> 00:35:53,290 S1: was looking through the eye of the sheep. And so 667 00:35:53,330 --> 00:35:57,210 S1: it's even, you know, she, she's kind of shape shifting here. 668 00:35:57,210 --> 00:35:58,210 S5: She's, she's. 669 00:35:58,210 --> 00:36:04,450 S1: Changing. And, and the, the girls don't understand that, but that's, 670 00:36:04,450 --> 00:36:06,610 S1: that's who the wise woman was, right? 671 00:36:06,650 --> 00:36:12,030 S2: Yeah. She is in, in in in everything that brings 672 00:36:12,030 --> 00:36:14,549 S2: you higher. She's never separate. 673 00:36:14,590 --> 00:36:18,430 S3: There's a similar figure in, um, another book by MacDonald, 674 00:36:18,469 --> 00:36:21,510 S3: The Princess and the Goblin. The the figure is also 675 00:36:21,510 --> 00:36:23,469 S3: a woman, which is interesting because you said like it 676 00:36:23,469 --> 00:36:26,069 S3: was his father who was a really clear Christ picture 677 00:36:26,070 --> 00:36:29,790 S3: to him. But in both of those cases, famous stories, 678 00:36:29,790 --> 00:36:31,870 S3: it was a woman, but the same kind of like 679 00:36:32,110 --> 00:36:34,710 S3: beautiful agelessness in spite of the fact that, you know 680 00:36:34,710 --> 00:36:36,190 S3: that she's very, very old. 681 00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:36,670 S7: Yeah. 682 00:36:37,550 --> 00:36:42,270 S1: Uh, then the wise woman says, do not think that 683 00:36:42,270 --> 00:36:44,670 S1: the things you have seen in my house are mere 684 00:36:44,670 --> 00:36:49,950 S1: empty shows. You do not know. You cannot yet think 685 00:36:50,230 --> 00:36:52,630 S1: how living and true they are. 686 00:36:52,750 --> 00:36:53,270 S2: Mhm. 687 00:36:53,870 --> 00:36:59,070 S1: Now you must go. So the, the reality of that 688 00:36:59,070 --> 00:37:02,950 S1: beauty and that delight and awakening. See, that's what you're 689 00:37:03,030 --> 00:37:06,310 S1: we're going to talk about this tomorrow. Awakening delight. That 690 00:37:06,310 --> 00:37:08,270 S1: is God's business, isn't it, Rosie? 691 00:37:08,310 --> 00:37:08,670 S7: Oh. 692 00:37:09,310 --> 00:37:12,569 S2: It's what? It's why people don't follow Jesus is because 693 00:37:12,570 --> 00:37:16,130 S2: they've never been delighted by him, that he's only a proposition. 694 00:37:16,130 --> 00:37:18,969 S2: He's only a should. He's not. He's. He isn't in 695 00:37:19,010 --> 00:37:23,890 S2: their souls as as as the formation of everything that 696 00:37:24,250 --> 00:37:27,089 S2: it makes all of life worth it, no matter what 697 00:37:27,090 --> 00:37:30,050 S2: comes along. And lots of hard things come along. 698 00:37:30,090 --> 00:37:32,490 S3: And that's kind of what you talked about in our class, 699 00:37:32,489 --> 00:37:35,530 S3: a lot about how fiction is. In a sense, true 700 00:37:35,570 --> 00:37:38,690 S3: fiction isn't lies, because it shows us in a way 701 00:37:38,690 --> 00:37:41,890 S3: that awakens our delight and our imagination. What's real about 702 00:37:41,890 --> 00:37:43,969 S3: ourselves and about the world and about God in a 703 00:37:43,969 --> 00:37:48,490 S3: way that just propositional literature doesn't, doesn't do. 704 00:37:49,210 --> 00:37:53,050 S1: One of the things that MacDonald did for me, though, 705 00:37:53,090 --> 00:37:56,290 S1: is much like in the Gospel of John, when John 706 00:37:56,290 --> 00:37:58,689 S1: will be going along and he'll kind of turn to 707 00:37:58,690 --> 00:38:00,530 S1: the side and say, and this was because of this, 708 00:38:00,570 --> 00:38:03,009 S1: you know that. And then he goes back, he does 709 00:38:03,010 --> 00:38:08,410 S1: the same. MacDonald does the same thing. And at one 710 00:38:08,410 --> 00:38:11,109 S1: point At the beginning he says, take it, Mr. Coleridge. 711 00:38:11,590 --> 00:38:13,830 S1: So there are these things he's he's kind of letting 712 00:38:13,830 --> 00:38:16,910 S1: us in on. Yeah. As he writes, that did pull 713 00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:20,830 S1: me closer into the story and his voice. Mhm. The 714 00:38:20,830 --> 00:38:24,230 S1: wise woman is what we're talking about. George MacDonald wrote this, 715 00:38:24,230 --> 00:38:28,029 S1: I think it was published in 1875. Rosie is talking 716 00:38:28,030 --> 00:38:30,629 S1: about it. Joanna is talking about it. And when we 717 00:38:30,630 --> 00:38:33,390 S1: return from a break, we are going to tell you 718 00:38:33,790 --> 00:38:37,149 S1: what we are going to read together in Rosie's Book 719 00:38:37,150 --> 00:38:41,350 S1: Club 2.0 in October. So you got to stay with us. 720 00:38:41,350 --> 00:38:43,790 S1: You got to find out what is the next book 721 00:38:43,790 --> 00:38:46,230 S1: that we're going to read. You'll hear about that coming 722 00:38:46,230 --> 00:38:49,549 S1: up straight ahead. This is Chris Fabry live online at 723 00:38:49,550 --> 00:39:05,470 S1: Chris fabry.org. Doctor Rosalie de Rosnay is back with us today, 724 00:39:05,469 --> 00:39:09,250 S1: along with friend Joanna Odin, who is a junior at 725 00:39:09,250 --> 00:39:13,689 S1: Moody Bible Institute. And we're talking about George McDonald's, the 726 00:39:13,690 --> 00:39:17,690 S1: wise woman. And I said, yes, we are going to 727 00:39:17,730 --> 00:39:21,770 S1: let you know we're doing this every two months instead 728 00:39:21,770 --> 00:39:24,450 S1: of every three months. Back in June, we thought it 729 00:39:24,450 --> 00:39:26,529 S1: would do this in September. No, no, we got to 730 00:39:26,530 --> 00:39:30,930 S1: do it more quickly. So in October, ladies and gentlemen, 731 00:39:30,930 --> 00:39:33,969 S1: we have the big announcement right now. In October, we 732 00:39:33,969 --> 00:39:37,570 S1: are going to read another book together. And it is. 733 00:39:37,930 --> 00:39:40,969 S2: The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. 734 00:39:43,450 --> 00:39:45,610 S1: Okay. Who chose that? Rosie, was it you? 735 00:39:46,730 --> 00:39:48,610 S9: I think I did, yeah. 736 00:39:49,690 --> 00:39:52,569 S1: In October. It's kind of a spooky month. Yeah. And 737 00:39:52,610 --> 00:39:55,210 S1: don't you think everybody has read The Screwtape Letters or. 738 00:39:55,210 --> 00:39:58,370 S2: No, I came to it really late. I taught it 739 00:39:58,410 --> 00:40:01,609 S2: in monster Lit the last few semesters. I taught that 740 00:40:01,610 --> 00:40:05,690 S2: I came to it late and really came to really 741 00:40:05,790 --> 00:40:07,750 S2: appreciate it. I had read it, but it's not one 742 00:40:07,750 --> 00:40:10,069 S2: of the ones I cared about. And when I reread it, 743 00:40:10,070 --> 00:40:12,750 S2: I thought, boy, the wisdom of the ages is in here. 744 00:40:12,750 --> 00:40:14,550 S10: So yes, yes. Yeah. 745 00:40:14,910 --> 00:40:17,549 S1: And he got some pushback. Well, we'll talk about that 746 00:40:17,550 --> 00:40:19,430 S1: when we get to that. There's too much to talk about, 747 00:40:19,469 --> 00:40:22,230 S1: about the the wise woman, but get a copy of 748 00:40:22,230 --> 00:40:26,310 S1: The Screwtape Letters, be reading that, take some notes, ask 749 00:40:26,310 --> 00:40:31,870 S1: some questions in October. Great month to read about Slub 750 00:40:31,870 --> 00:40:35,230 S1: gob and, and all of the all that goes on there. 751 00:40:35,230 --> 00:40:38,270 S1: All right. Mark in Aurora, Illinois. Mark, what do you 752 00:40:38,270 --> 00:40:38,870 S1: want to say? 753 00:40:40,390 --> 00:40:44,550 S11: Well, I read a series of McDonald books years ago 754 00:40:44,550 --> 00:40:49,270 S11: and loved them thoroughly. And I have a friend who 755 00:40:49,270 --> 00:40:54,390 S11: is in a faith crisis. And she told me that 756 00:40:54,430 --> 00:40:57,990 S11: George McDonald is the one author who, more than any other, 757 00:40:57,989 --> 00:41:02,070 S11: makes her, thinks that faith might still be something worth having. 758 00:41:02,230 --> 00:41:02,630 S9: Wow. 759 00:41:02,950 --> 00:41:07,370 S11: And I was I was going to mention Louis comments 760 00:41:07,370 --> 00:41:10,930 S11: that MacDonald is the only writer he knows of, uh, 761 00:41:11,370 --> 00:41:16,170 S11: outside of the New Testament who combines tenderness and severity 762 00:41:16,170 --> 00:41:17,610 S11: the way Christ did. 763 00:41:17,650 --> 00:41:18,489 S2: That's very good. 764 00:41:18,530 --> 00:41:24,210 S11: And the he also says that sometimes in MacDonald's the 765 00:41:24,250 --> 00:41:28,450 S11: evil is stagy. And I would agree with that. And 766 00:41:28,450 --> 00:41:31,529 S11: I would say that if you want to see evil 767 00:41:31,930 --> 00:41:35,650 S11: in a very disturbing manifestation, read Charles Williams, who was 768 00:41:35,650 --> 00:41:37,649 S11: a friend of C.S. Lewis. But the thing is that 769 00:41:37,650 --> 00:41:42,810 S11: when goodness overcomes it, you know that a great victory 770 00:41:42,850 --> 00:41:46,689 S11: has been won because the evil is so potent. And 771 00:41:46,730 --> 00:41:51,370 S11: there's a lesson in God's sovereignty about that in this, 772 00:41:51,370 --> 00:41:57,410 S11: because it's like, it's almost as though being further glorified 773 00:41:57,410 --> 00:42:00,730 S11: is a bonus that God gets out of evil being 774 00:42:00,730 --> 00:42:05,190 S11: so bad. Because when God overcomes that boy, he really 775 00:42:05,190 --> 00:42:06,390 S11: overcomes it. 776 00:42:06,430 --> 00:42:10,549 S1: Well, isn't what you're talking about, in a way, the 777 00:42:10,550 --> 00:42:14,390 S1: difference between cosmetic change and transformation? 778 00:42:14,430 --> 00:42:15,390 S9: Oh yeah. Absolutely. 779 00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:18,030 S1: Because the girls could have just become a little bit better, 780 00:42:18,070 --> 00:42:21,390 S1: you know, and a little bit nicer, you know, and 781 00:42:21,550 --> 00:42:24,989 S1: be more thankful. But God wants to do something on 782 00:42:24,989 --> 00:42:25,830 S1: the inside. Rosie. 783 00:42:26,230 --> 00:42:29,790 S2: That's exactly well, that's exactly right. I mean, that's what 784 00:42:29,830 --> 00:42:32,629 S2: Rosamund she Rose of the world, by the way, is 785 00:42:32,910 --> 00:42:36,509 S2: an Agnes. Agnes de you know, you think Lamb of God. 786 00:42:36,550 --> 00:42:38,350 S2: It's kind of interesting just to look at the names. 787 00:42:38,350 --> 00:42:41,230 S2: My brothers pointed that out to me. But yes, I mean, 788 00:42:41,270 --> 00:42:44,870 S2: she is completely changed. But it takes so many iterations 789 00:42:44,870 --> 00:42:48,270 S2: of of the wise woman coming after her and after her. 790 00:42:48,310 --> 00:42:50,150 S2: I mean, how long does it take? It's like the 791 00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:55,150 S2: children of Israel. It's like me and. Yeah. And finally 792 00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:58,589 S2: she gets it and she is just full of joy, 793 00:42:59,070 --> 00:43:04,210 S2: even though to Agnes's parents, and this is so well said, 794 00:43:05,210 --> 00:43:08,129 S2: the wise woman said, instead of making your daughter obey you, 795 00:43:08,170 --> 00:43:10,850 S2: you left her to be a slave to herself. You 796 00:43:10,930 --> 00:43:13,689 S2: coaxed when you ought to have compelled you, praised when 797 00:43:13,690 --> 00:43:16,089 S2: you ought to have been silent. You fondled when you 798 00:43:16,090 --> 00:43:18,370 S2: ought to have punished. You threatened when you ought to 799 00:43:18,370 --> 00:43:21,210 S2: have inflicted. And there she stands, the full grown result 800 00:43:21,210 --> 00:43:24,490 S2: of your foolishness. And that's what the burden of Jesus is. 801 00:43:24,530 --> 00:43:27,850 S2: And the wise woman to deliver this. These children who 802 00:43:27,850 --> 00:43:31,090 S2: have been so badly handled by their parents. 803 00:43:31,930 --> 00:43:33,170 S1: Joanna, what do you say to that? 804 00:43:33,650 --> 00:43:35,810 S3: Yeah, it makes me think of a line early on. 805 00:43:35,810 --> 00:43:38,730 S3: I think it's when the wise woman first takes Rosamund 806 00:43:38,770 --> 00:43:40,890 S3: and they said, the parents say, we don't know what 807 00:43:40,890 --> 00:43:43,250 S3: went wrong. We gave her everything she wanted. And the 808 00:43:43,250 --> 00:43:46,490 S3: wise woman said, oh, poor child, how badly you've treated her. 809 00:43:46,690 --> 00:43:49,770 S9: Yeah. Yes, exactly. 810 00:43:49,770 --> 00:43:52,890 S1: I like the. There's another line in here because he 811 00:43:52,890 --> 00:43:55,290 S1: begins with a. This is a peculiar country, you know. 812 00:43:55,330 --> 00:43:57,730 S1: It's like it's never happened before. And it's very different 813 00:43:57,730 --> 00:44:00,569 S1: from ours, so different that my reader must not be 814 00:44:00,670 --> 00:44:03,189 S1: too much surprised when I add the amazing fact that 815 00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:06,469 S1: most of its inhabitants, instead of enjoying the things they had, 816 00:44:06,590 --> 00:44:10,270 S1: were always wanting the things they had not. Often even 817 00:44:10,270 --> 00:44:13,589 S1: the things it was not likely they ever would or 818 00:44:13,590 --> 00:44:16,469 S1: could have. And then, as she grew up, it was 819 00:44:16,469 --> 00:44:19,310 S1: still the same with this difference that not only must 820 00:44:19,310 --> 00:44:23,910 S1: she have everything, but she got tired of everything almost 821 00:44:23,910 --> 00:44:26,750 S1: as soon as she had it. And if that is 822 00:44:26,750 --> 00:44:29,830 S1: not a picture of our culture, and if that is 823 00:44:29,830 --> 00:44:32,710 S1: not a picture of my own heart, you know, I 824 00:44:32,710 --> 00:44:33,710 S1: don't know what is. 825 00:44:34,030 --> 00:44:34,470 S9: No. 826 00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:38,950 S2: Absolutely true. He. That's what I mean. George MacDonald has 827 00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:42,390 S2: this prophetic insight that covers a hundred years, more than 828 00:44:42,390 --> 00:44:46,989 S2: a hundred years. It's just amazing, the wisdom, because he 829 00:44:46,989 --> 00:44:50,910 S2: is talking about wisdom and that wisdom must coexist with 830 00:44:50,910 --> 00:44:53,469 S2: being a Christian. We must have wisdom. 831 00:44:54,030 --> 00:44:57,110 S1: Prince the dog though. We got to get Joanna. Joanna, 832 00:44:57,150 --> 00:44:59,030 S1: tell me what you think of Prince the dog. 833 00:44:59,330 --> 00:45:01,730 S3: I will say Prince the dog is one of the 834 00:45:01,730 --> 00:45:05,330 S3: characters that I find the hardest to figure out in 835 00:45:05,330 --> 00:45:07,690 S3: this one, because he just he just kind of appears 836 00:45:07,690 --> 00:45:10,890 S3: and then he just disappears quickly. But it's interesting that 837 00:45:10,890 --> 00:45:15,050 S3: he's the first thing that Rosman learns to love. Um, 838 00:45:15,170 --> 00:45:18,450 S3: he is kind of like doctor de rosé mentioned when 839 00:45:18,450 --> 00:45:21,609 S3: we were talking earlier that he's like a figure of 840 00:45:21,650 --> 00:45:26,129 S3: God's discipline for her. Um, when the wise woman isn't present. 841 00:45:26,370 --> 00:45:31,130 S3: And then, um, it's interesting though, it says like Rosman 842 00:45:31,130 --> 00:45:34,729 S3: learned to love to love Prince because she was not 843 00:45:34,730 --> 00:45:37,890 S3: inclined to love someone superior to herself. She needed to 844 00:45:37,930 --> 00:45:40,370 S3: love something inferior. And then she could not learn to 845 00:45:40,370 --> 00:45:42,770 S3: love something that she did not first learn to fear. 846 00:45:43,250 --> 00:45:44,450 S2: Isn't that interesting? 847 00:45:44,489 --> 00:45:44,850 S10: Wow. 848 00:45:45,450 --> 00:45:46,129 S9: I wonder if. 849 00:45:46,290 --> 00:45:48,530 S1: If he had pets, if MacDonald had. 850 00:45:48,570 --> 00:45:50,250 S9: You know, she dogs. 851 00:45:50,250 --> 00:45:51,890 S1: Scottish sheepdogs or something like. 852 00:45:51,890 --> 00:45:52,689 S9: That? Yeah. Yeah. 853 00:45:52,730 --> 00:45:56,930 S1: So okay. So what? And I was authentic with you 854 00:45:56,969 --> 00:45:59,910 S1: here today saying I had a hard time getting into it. 855 00:46:00,110 --> 00:46:02,630 S1: But do you see, as we talk about this, even 856 00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:04,509 S1: if it's hard for you to read or hard to 857 00:46:04,510 --> 00:46:07,350 S1: get through, there are things that you pick up. There 858 00:46:07,350 --> 00:46:10,630 S1: are ways that you grow and, and even if you 859 00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:14,029 S1: have a hard time, things that go deeply into your soul. 860 00:46:14,430 --> 00:46:16,910 S1: So keep that in mind as you pick up a 861 00:46:16,910 --> 00:46:20,950 S1: copy of The Screwtape Letters. Read it before October. Sometime 862 00:46:20,950 --> 00:46:23,190 S1: in October, Rosie and I will choose a date and 863 00:46:23,190 --> 00:46:26,790 S1: we'll do that. Rosie, thanks for another successful book club. 864 00:46:26,790 --> 00:46:28,150 S1: Come back and see us, okay? 865 00:46:28,190 --> 00:46:31,190 S2: It was wonderful because both of you just worked. 866 00:46:31,710 --> 00:46:34,110 S1: Joanna, all the best to you. I ask our listeners 867 00:46:34,110 --> 00:46:37,630 S1: to pray about what what you're doing at Moody and 868 00:46:37,630 --> 00:46:41,029 S1: where you're going after that, but much success to you 869 00:46:41,030 --> 00:46:43,470 S1: in a Kingdom kind of way. Thanks for doing this today. 870 00:46:43,469 --> 00:46:45,270 S3: Thank you for inviting me. It was a pleasure. 871 00:46:45,830 --> 00:46:48,589 S1: Chris Fabry Live is a production of Moody Radio, a 872 00:46:48,590 --> 00:46:50,910 S1: Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.