WEBVTT - Starting Strong | Matt Bell 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:03.160 We will direct our use of money in ways that 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:05.600 is honoring to God, and secondly, that enables us to 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:09.440 love well so that we are free to to really hear, discern, 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:12.000 and respond to God's call in our lives. That's a 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:14.920 wonderful starting point for any marriage. 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:23.000 Welcome to Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.240 The New York Times best seller, The Five Love Languages. 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.880 Marriage and finances can be a complicated mix. Many couples 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.920 struggle with stress about money issues, which is a leading 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:38.920 cause of divorce. Today, financial writer and stewardship expert Matt 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:42.160 Bell helps us discover the good that money can do 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:43.080 in a marriage. 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:47.040 Matt's book is titled Starting Strong, and it's our featured 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:51.920 resource at building relationships.us. I'm interested to hear from you, Gary, 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:55.960 what you've seen regarding this topic in your own marriage 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.080 and in the couples that you've counseled. Is this an 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:01.080 important issue that we need to tackle? 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.920 Well, there's no question about it, Chris. Actually, Carolyn and 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:07.320 I did not have a lot of struggles with our marriage, 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.240 to be very honest with you, because neither one of 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:15.479 us had any money. And in two weeks after we 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:18.720 got married, I enrolled in seminary. And so, you know, 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:22.280 we were just young enough to pay the bills. She 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:24.839 was working part time and I was working part time. 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:27.440 And so money was not. I do remember this, she 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:29.839 agreed from the very beginning that she would keep the books, 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:31.479 you know, for us, you know, pay the bills and 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.440 so forth and about, I don't know, three months into it, 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.360 she said, honey, you think you could do this? And 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:39.960 I said, well, I could. Why? She said, it hurts 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:44.800 my stomach. Oh, because she's having trouble making sure all 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:48.920 the bills got paid every month. So I took that over, 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.560 you know, and but I tell you, my counseling man, 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:54.560 this this has been one of the major issues through 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.790 the years with couples is there are differences in terms 0:01:57.790 --> 0:02:00.910 of how they handle money. And, and many times, you know, 0:02:00.950 --> 0:02:03.190 they don't talk about it. And so this, this is 0:02:03.190 --> 0:02:04.950 going to be a good discussion. And this is a 0:02:04.950 --> 0:02:06.550 great book. It's going to help a lot of people. 0:02:06.550 --> 0:02:08.550 So I'm excited about our conversation. 0:02:08.710 --> 0:02:10.989 One of the things I, I remember about you and 0:02:10.990 --> 0:02:13.750 Carolyn is that you'd go to the store or you'd 0:02:13.750 --> 0:02:17.870 go shopping and look at things window shopping and you'd say, 0:02:17.870 --> 0:02:19.910 look at all that. Look at all these things we 0:02:19.910 --> 0:02:22.750 really don't need. We can't afford. And we, you know, 0:02:22.790 --> 0:02:24.670 and wouldn't it be nice if we could. Well, we 0:02:24.669 --> 0:02:27.590 don't really need that. You were you were of one 0:02:27.630 --> 0:02:29.630 heart and one mind that way. Right? 0:02:29.669 --> 0:02:31.630 Yeah. We were. Yeah. We'd look at it and I'd say, 0:02:31.669 --> 0:02:33.910 isn't it great that we don't need that? And she'd 0:02:33.910 --> 0:02:35.870 look at some say, isn't it great? We don't need that. 0:02:37.150 --> 0:02:40.350 It was our way. It was our way of processing 0:02:40.990 --> 0:02:43.750 the idea that you don't have to buy everything you see. 0:02:43.990 --> 0:02:46.669 Right, right. Or put it on credit, which I'm sure 0:02:46.669 --> 0:02:49.870 we're going to get to today with our guest, Matt Bell. 0:02:49.910 --> 0:02:54.150 He's the managing editor at Sound Mind Investing. He's the 0:02:54.150 --> 0:02:57.510 author of five personal finance books and the Mad About 0:02:57.510 --> 0:03:01.870 Money blog. He earned a master's degree from DePaul University, 0:03:01.910 --> 0:03:06.350 offers video training on biblical money management through Right Now Media, 0:03:06.350 --> 0:03:10.470 and he's spoken at churches, universities and conferences around the U.S. 0:03:10.790 --> 0:03:13.430 he and his wife, Jude, and their three children live 0:03:13.470 --> 0:03:17.150 near Louisville. You got to say that, right? Not Louisville. Louisville. 0:03:17.389 --> 0:03:22.110 And her featured resource is his book, Starting Strong Discovering 0:03:22.110 --> 0:03:24.950 the Good That Money Can Do in Your Marriage. You 0:03:24.950 --> 0:03:27.990 can find out more at Building relationships.us. 0:03:28.470 --> 0:03:31.110 Well, Matt, welcome to Building Relationships. 0:03:31.470 --> 0:03:33.790 Thanks so much, Gary. It's a really, it's a pleasure 0:03:33.790 --> 0:03:35.230 to meet you. And it's an honor to be on 0:03:35.230 --> 0:03:36.030 your program. 0:03:36.590 --> 0:03:39.230 Well, as I understand it, the parable of the prodigal 0:03:39.230 --> 0:03:42.590 son had a big influence on your life and how 0:03:42.590 --> 0:03:44.870 you look at money management. Is that true? 0:03:45.230 --> 0:03:47.870 Yeah, that's absolutely right. I like to call it my 0:03:47.870 --> 0:03:52.590 unintentional reenactment of the parable of the prodigal son. Basically, 0:03:52.590 --> 0:03:54.670 the short version of the story is that when I 0:03:54.670 --> 0:03:58.270 was in my mid-twenties, I inherited about $60,000 from an 0:03:58.270 --> 0:04:01.630 uncle and had no idea he was planning to leave 0:04:01.630 --> 0:04:04.150 me any money. So it was this great surprise, a 0:04:04.150 --> 0:04:07.030 wonderful gift, and I had good intentions with that money. 0:04:07.030 --> 0:04:09.190 I thought, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. 0:04:09.190 --> 0:04:11.590 I'm going to do something worthwhile. I thought I would 0:04:11.790 --> 0:04:14.350 create my dream job out of that. And so I 0:04:14.390 --> 0:04:16.230 like to golf and I like to travel. And I 0:04:16.230 --> 0:04:18.830 was trained as a reporter. So I kind of mix 0:04:18.830 --> 0:04:20.830 those three things together and came up with a newsletter 0:04:20.830 --> 0:04:24.310 for people who take golf vacations. And while it lasted, 0:04:24.310 --> 0:04:27.310 it was amazing. It was everything I dreamed it could be. 0:04:27.550 --> 0:04:31.029 I was traveling regularly. I was playing these amazing golf 0:04:31.029 --> 0:04:34.789 courses like Pebble Beach in California, and the courses along 0:04:34.790 --> 0:04:37.589 Spain's Costa del Sol. Never mind the fact that I 0:04:37.589 --> 0:04:40.830 wasn't attracting very many paid subscribers to this newsletter. I 0:04:41.110 --> 0:04:42.990 had what seemed like an endless supply of money in 0:04:42.990 --> 0:04:45.469 the bank, and so I just kept going. But two 0:04:45.470 --> 0:04:49.349 years into that whole experience, I literally woke up one 0:04:49.350 --> 0:04:53.150 day to the realization that I was in financial trouble. 0:04:53.150 --> 0:04:55.789 I had I had run through the entire 60 and 0:04:55.790 --> 0:04:59.310 then another $20,000 on credit cards, because I was just 0:04:59.310 --> 0:05:01.710 so blind to what was happening with that money and 0:05:01.710 --> 0:05:04.510 so acclimated to this amazing life I was living that 0:05:04.510 --> 0:05:06.510 when the real money ran out, I just kept funding 0:05:06.510 --> 0:05:09.469 it on credit cards. And so I was in deep 0:05:09.510 --> 0:05:12.630 trouble and went from living the life to living in 0:05:12.630 --> 0:05:15.870 my parents basement in the small town where I grew up. But, 0:05:16.070 --> 0:05:19.710 but God used that in some life changing ways. I, 0:05:19.910 --> 0:05:21.950 I came to faith through that which would have been 0:05:21.950 --> 0:05:24.390 plenty to come out of that experience. But I also 0:05:24.390 --> 0:05:27.310 got really interested in learning about money. I figured anybody 0:05:27.310 --> 0:05:29.950 who could take 60 and turn it into -20 in 0:05:29.950 --> 0:05:33.589 2 years time has a few things to learn. And 0:05:33.589 --> 0:05:36.710 so I just became a sponge about all things money. 0:05:36.910 --> 0:05:38.990 And when I became a Christian, I was amazed at 0:05:38.990 --> 0:05:42.030 how much the Bible teaches on this topic. So, um, 0:05:42.029 --> 0:05:43.590 the second really good thing to come out of that 0:05:43.589 --> 0:05:45.990 is that it introduced me to my life's work, which 0:05:45.990 --> 0:05:48.310 I've just, I love doing this. I love writing and 0:05:48.310 --> 0:05:52.300 speaking about biblical money management and helping people learn God's 0:05:52.300 --> 0:05:53.380 approach to money. 0:05:53.900 --> 0:05:57.460 Well, it's desperately needed in today's world, that's for sure. 0:05:57.860 --> 0:05:59.900 Let's look at your own marriage or talk about your 0:05:59.900 --> 0:06:02.740 own marriage. Did you and your wife begin your marriage 0:06:02.740 --> 0:06:05.180 on the same page as far as money goes? 0:06:05.940 --> 0:06:09.380 Ha. Um, you know, in some ways, I'd say yes. Uh, 0:06:09.380 --> 0:06:13.300 temperament wise, we both are. Secondary temperaments are both melancholic. 0:06:13.500 --> 0:06:15.700 So that kind of works because that's the temperament that 0:06:15.700 --> 0:06:17.900 really takes to the use of a budget most readily. 0:06:18.100 --> 0:06:22.419 But in some more evident ways, more, more visible ways 0:06:22.700 --> 0:06:25.779 we were not. Uh, it's kind of ironic. And you'll 0:06:25.779 --> 0:06:28.380 see why in a second here. But when we got married, 0:06:28.700 --> 0:06:32.380 she had she was giving a higher percentage of her income. 0:06:32.660 --> 0:06:36.300 She was she had more in savings, more in investments. 0:06:36.420 --> 0:06:39.060 She had a paid off car that was two years 0:06:39.060 --> 0:06:42.619 newer than my paid off car. And, um, and so 0:06:42.620 --> 0:06:44.859 we were kind of in different places financially. And I 0:06:44.900 --> 0:06:47.860 say it's ironic because I'm eight years older than she is. 0:06:47.860 --> 0:06:50.020 So I had plenty of time to get my financial 0:06:50.220 --> 0:06:53.219 act together, and at the time I was making about 0:06:53.220 --> 0:06:55.340 three times as much as she was making because she 0:06:55.339 --> 0:06:58.780 was in ministry full time working for crew and I 0:06:58.779 --> 0:07:02.100 was in corporate America. So and yet she was in 0:07:02.100 --> 0:07:04.820 better shape because she had been doing the right things 0:07:04.820 --> 0:07:08.700 with money for a long time. Whereas I, as I 0:07:08.740 --> 0:07:11.340 just explained, was living maybe a little bit more of 0:07:11.380 --> 0:07:12.860 a colorful financial life. 0:07:13.780 --> 0:07:18.300 I think there are couples that can identify with that. Now, 0:07:18.340 --> 0:07:22.380 many couples don't talk about finances until they're already in 0:07:22.380 --> 0:07:25.740 the middle of tension over, you know, money. Uh, what 0:07:25.740 --> 0:07:29.620 are the first conversations you believe every engaged or newly 0:07:29.620 --> 0:07:32.060 married couple should have about money? 0:07:32.300 --> 0:07:35.260 Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's, you know, 0:07:35.300 --> 0:07:37.260 when you're first getting to know somebody, that's not the 0:07:37.260 --> 0:07:39.540 time to put them under the microscope and find out 0:07:39.540 --> 0:07:41.260 how much debt they have and how much they have 0:07:41.260 --> 0:07:45.060 in investments. But but as the relationship gets more serious, 0:07:45.180 --> 0:07:49.060 I think it's important to find out about each other's pasts, 0:07:49.060 --> 0:07:53.020 because how we saw our parents deal with money growing 0:07:53.020 --> 0:07:56.660 up is very influential in how we manage money. Some 0:07:56.660 --> 0:08:00.060 people do it the same. Some people go in completely 0:08:00.060 --> 0:08:02.660 different directions. So I think and those can be sort 0:08:02.660 --> 0:08:06.340 of interesting conversations and not too threatening early on. But 0:08:06.340 --> 0:08:08.900 as the relationship gets more serious, especially as you get 0:08:08.900 --> 0:08:13.540 engaged and certainly, if possible, before you get married, now 0:08:13.540 --> 0:08:15.500 I think it's time to get more specific. Now it's 0:08:15.500 --> 0:08:18.580 time to to find out really, you know, where is 0:08:18.580 --> 0:08:23.260 each person financially? So debt investments, how much do you earn? 0:08:23.300 --> 0:08:25.540 I think all that needs to be on the table 0:08:25.580 --> 0:08:28.860 before you actually say I do. You just don't want 0:08:28.900 --> 0:08:32.059 to enter marriage with any big financial surprises. 0:08:32.580 --> 0:08:36.260 Boy, I run into that in the counseling office where 0:08:36.260 --> 0:08:38.300 they didn't find out the other one was in debt 0:08:38.300 --> 0:08:42.380 for $20,000, you know, before they got married. Why didn't 0:08:42.380 --> 0:08:45.900 you tell me that? You know? Wow. Oh, goodness. Goodness. 0:08:46.300 --> 0:08:49.300 How about you? Before you and your wife married. Uh, 0:08:49.300 --> 0:08:52.900 what was the best financial advice and or marriage advice 0:08:52.900 --> 0:08:54.579 that you two received? 0:08:55.580 --> 0:08:59.180 Yeah, I love that question because we, we received some 0:08:59.179 --> 0:09:01.660 really good financial advice. I mean, I was already working 0:09:01.660 --> 0:09:04.900 in stewardship ministry, um, at the time when we got 0:09:04.900 --> 0:09:07.380 married and I had gotten out of debt before we 0:09:07.380 --> 0:09:10.500 got married. But I'll tell you, the pastor who counseled 0:09:10.500 --> 0:09:13.860 us before we got married gave us some really, really 0:09:13.860 --> 0:09:16.020 helpful advice that I try to pass along to as 0:09:16.020 --> 0:09:18.860 many couples as possible. And that is if you're a 0:09:18.980 --> 0:09:21.340 two income couple, if that's what it's going to be 0:09:21.340 --> 0:09:23.860 true when you get married, live as if you're a 0:09:23.860 --> 0:09:27.460 one income household. So because especially if you desire to 0:09:27.460 --> 0:09:30.620 have one partner, stay home with kids, if you're blessed 0:09:30.620 --> 0:09:33.740 with children, that's going to be so important. It's so 0:09:33.740 --> 0:09:36.980 hard to get acclimated to a two income lifestyle and 0:09:36.980 --> 0:09:39.420 then go down to one. That's really tough for a 0:09:39.420 --> 0:09:41.260 lot of people to do. But if you never get 0:09:41.300 --> 0:09:43.810 acclimated to that in the first place, it makes it 0:09:43.809 --> 0:09:46.810 so much easier. So. So we gave off of both 0:09:46.809 --> 0:09:49.050 of our incomes. As I said, Jude was in full 0:09:49.090 --> 0:09:52.490 time ministry. I was working in corporate America. And so 0:09:52.530 --> 0:09:55.330 we gave off of both of the incomes. But we 0:09:55.370 --> 0:09:58.010 bought a condo about ten months into our marriage. We 0:09:58.010 --> 0:10:00.330 rented initially, and then we bought a condo. We bought 0:10:00.330 --> 0:10:02.770 a condo that we could afford on my income alone. 0:10:02.970 --> 0:10:07.370 That was really important. And other major lifestyle decisions. We 0:10:07.370 --> 0:10:10.650 based on one income, so we were able to bank 0:10:10.690 --> 0:10:14.010 a lot of her income, um, anticipating the day, praying 0:10:14.010 --> 0:10:15.770 for the day that we would have kids and she'd 0:10:15.809 --> 0:10:17.410 be able to step out of the paid workforce. So 0:10:17.410 --> 0:10:19.570 we kind of got ahead on some of the savings 0:10:19.570 --> 0:10:23.090 things and we enjoyed some margin. We went on some 0:10:23.090 --> 0:10:25.809 nice trips during that time. Our first child came along 0:10:25.850 --> 0:10:28.050 four years into our marriage, and so we had had 0:10:28.050 --> 0:10:30.329 a chance to do some nice traveling and all. But 0:10:30.330 --> 0:10:33.130 I'll tell you, it was hugely important to to not 0:10:33.130 --> 0:10:37.130 get acclimated to a lifestyle that required both incomes. That 0:10:37.130 --> 0:10:40.929 was huge for us. And then the best marriage advice, 0:10:40.929 --> 0:10:44.650 I think, was, to pray together every day. I can't 0:10:44.650 --> 0:10:47.250 say in 27 years of marriage we've never missed a day. 0:10:47.250 --> 0:10:50.010 But but we we have made that a priority. And 0:10:50.010 --> 0:10:53.650 that's been so helpful in our marriage because, you know, 0:10:53.690 --> 0:10:56.610 as you know, praying together is a very intimate thing. 0:10:56.650 --> 0:10:59.290 It's also a kind of a humble thing. You've got 0:10:59.290 --> 0:11:01.610 to come together with humility to come before God and 0:11:01.610 --> 0:11:04.730 pray together at the end of the day. Um, there 0:11:04.770 --> 0:11:07.770 are some times when we might have some unresolved issues 0:11:07.770 --> 0:11:10.170 from the day, and if we're not in the best 0:11:10.170 --> 0:11:12.530 place in our marriage, but we're exhausted and we need 0:11:12.530 --> 0:11:14.890 to get some sleep, we might pray the Lord's Prayer 0:11:14.890 --> 0:11:18.050 because that's a little easier. Um, but we but we 0:11:18.050 --> 0:11:20.809 will pray and we have prayed throughout our marriage together. 0:11:21.410 --> 0:11:24.770 Those are two good pieces of advice. And I would 0:11:24.770 --> 0:11:28.570 guess that, uh, not many couples, unless they've been challenged 0:11:28.570 --> 0:11:31.569 to this, who are, who are two income family are 0:11:31.570 --> 0:11:35.290 living on one income, uh, have probably haven't even thought 0:11:35.290 --> 0:11:35.930 about it. 0:11:37.370 --> 0:11:41.449 That's absolutely true. I've said across the table from a 0:11:41.450 --> 0:11:45.209 couple I still have this vivid memory of the marriage 0:11:45.210 --> 0:11:48.370 was in trouble because they had gotten acclimated to to 0:11:48.410 --> 0:11:52.650 a two income lifestyle, two financed cars, a mortgage that 0:11:52.690 --> 0:11:57.010 required both of those incomes. Um, just getting used to 0:11:57.610 --> 0:12:00.690 going out to eat regularly and these two incomes. And 0:12:00.690 --> 0:12:02.970 then one of them lost their job. And, and there 0:12:02.970 --> 0:12:05.410 was not only fear, but there was some anger that 0:12:05.410 --> 0:12:08.209 I could see in their faces. And so, boy, if 0:12:08.210 --> 0:12:11.170 a couple will start out their marriage, uh, living on 0:12:11.170 --> 0:12:14.050 one income, mostly that that would be a very good thing. 0:12:14.650 --> 0:12:17.969 Matt, you write about, uh, the way each person is 0:12:17.970 --> 0:12:23.290 financially wired. Uh, how can understanding the spouse's financial temperament 0:12:23.290 --> 0:12:25.569 change the way couples communicate? 0:12:26.570 --> 0:12:30.570 This is huge. I'm fascinated with temperament because temperament is 0:12:30.570 --> 0:12:33.290 how God has wired us up. So. So one person's 0:12:33.290 --> 0:12:36.050 temperament is not good or bad. It just it's the 0:12:36.050 --> 0:12:39.890 way God intended for them to be. And yet temperament 0:12:39.890 --> 0:12:43.690 really impacts so many things. And certainly money, not just money, 0:12:43.690 --> 0:12:47.050 but but certainly how we come at money. And when 0:12:47.050 --> 0:12:50.410 you discover your temperament and there's different classification systems out there, 0:12:50.410 --> 0:12:52.650 but if you just start with a simple, the simplest 0:12:52.650 --> 0:12:58.449 classification system that's out there of the choleric, melancholic, phlegmatic, sanguine, 0:12:58.650 --> 0:13:01.689 if you just kind of grasp that basic understanding of 0:13:01.730 --> 0:13:06.170 your wiring, that will explain a lot. And it'll be 0:13:06.170 --> 0:13:09.250 so helpful because each temperament comes with certain inherent money 0:13:09.250 --> 0:13:13.210 management strengths and certain inherent money management weaknesses. I think 0:13:13.210 --> 0:13:16.010 that a lot of the arguments couples get into about 0:13:16.010 --> 0:13:19.610 money are not really about what it seems like they're about. 0:13:19.610 --> 0:13:22.770 They're a clash of temperaments. One person might be more 0:13:22.770 --> 0:13:24.890 fearful than the other person. One person might be more 0:13:24.890 --> 0:13:28.250 confident than the other person. And it's not right or wrong, 0:13:28.250 --> 0:13:33.090 but it's by understanding how God has intentionally designed each person. 0:13:33.090 --> 0:13:35.010 Now we can start to work from each other's strengths 0:13:35.010 --> 0:13:38.160 and try to work around each other's weaknesses. So I 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:42.520 think temperament is just an endlessly fascinating and endlessly helpful 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:44.520 kind of tool in the toolkit. 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.000 I'm guessing that a lot of our listeners have never 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:54.520 even thought about that, uh, how the temperament plays into, uh, 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.120 the decisions we make regarding money. I don't know, just 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:02.240 because we often think of temperament and personality differences in 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.800 other areas, but, uh, yeah, that's one of the positive 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:09.640 things I think about this book. What practical steps can 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:15.400 couples take to prevent debt stress and different spending habits 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:18.199 from becoming long term problems in the marriage? 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:21.360 Well, I'll tell you, as much as I'm a fan 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.840 of of understanding each other's temperaments, which will which does 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.640 address some of these different issues that you just mentioned. 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.440 I also am a huge fan of this very unpopular, uh, 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.560 tool budget. Um, I prefer to call it a cash 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.760 flow plan. But. But I'll tell you if a couple 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.400 will put together a cash flow plan, that's this tool 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.120 that enables them to, to sort through their financial priorities together, 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:47.880 make some decisions about, hey, we have, we have limited 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:49.760 amount of money coming into our household. How are we 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.640 going to prioritize these things? And, and perhaps, you know, 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.080 and I'd strongly recommend that that no debt other than 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:58.280 a reasonable mortgage would be a good goal to strive for. 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:00.360 It might not be there at the start of the marriage, 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.840 but that'd be a good goal to strive for as 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.960 a couple comes together and uses this this tool, they'll 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.080 see that it's not what they thought it was. You know, 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.160 there's a lot of dislike of budgets just as they 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:13.520 people think about it. And yet it's such a tool 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.800 of freedom. And it's such a tool that fosters teamwork 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:20.680 and transparency, and it makes some decisions for you. You know, 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.640 if you've decided, hey, together, we're going to prioritize generosity 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.240 and we're going to prioritize saving and investing for the future. 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.560 And we're going to prioritize not taking on debt. And 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:31.880 we're going to build a plan around those things. Now 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.680 that plan becomes this really useful tool because we've decided together, 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:37.440 this is how we're going to going to pursue, how 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:40.040 we're going to manage money as a couple together. And 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.360 that can make some decisions for you, which makes decision 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.080 making a lot easier. You can say we've committed to 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.680 not carrying debt or to accelerating the payoff of current debt, 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.400 and so that it doesn't make sense to take the 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.920 big European vacation. This year. We're going to go to, 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.480 you know, Michigan on the beach for for a long weekend. 0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.360 We're going to make some decisions for the good of 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:01.480 this plan that we put together through prayer and through 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:02.760 through conversation. 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:07.479 So if you have the plan, then you've got a guideline. 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:09.560 That's what I hear you saying. 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.320 That's right. Yeah. It's a blueprint for how you're going 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.600 to manage the resources that God has entrusted to you. 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.080 And so it's just this, you know, people think of 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.200 a budget as something you go on, you know, like 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.400 a diet. That's the terminology they use. We can't go 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.280 out to eat this weekend. We're on a budget. It's 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.960 not something you go on. It's a tool you use 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.320 to manage money Successfully. 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:35.800 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's say there's a couple listening, and 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:39.880 she wants to save money for the kids college education, 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:45.520 and he wants to go buy a boat. How do 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:46.760 they process that? 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:52.400 Yeah. Well, and they're two. That's like decision making in advance. So, 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.479 you know, as you structure, as you as you design 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.840 your blueprints, you design your cash flow plan, it's about, 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.280 you know, hopefully it's about generosity first. I think that's 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:05.080 a biblical approach to money. Hopefully it's about saving and investing. Second, 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:09.080 that's just really good practical advice. And then it's about spending. 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:14.119 And the spending gets further prioritized by essential spending versus discretionary. 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.840 Now the boat looks more like discretionary to me. Um, 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.320 but the college could be, you know, more essential, you know, again, 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.119 it has to do with the couple coming together to 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:25.679 talk about, look, if we have kids already or if 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.440 we're blessed with kids in the future, how much of 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.070 the college expense. Are we planning to cover. And you can. 0:17:31.109 --> 0:17:33.310 There's a lot of online free online calculators. You can 0:17:33.310 --> 0:17:35.750 figure out what's reasonable and what does that look like 0:17:35.790 --> 0:17:37.710 on a, on a monthly basis in order to pursue 0:17:37.710 --> 0:17:42.150 that goal. But but again, discretionary, I think comes last. 0:17:42.150 --> 0:17:44.270 And that may not sound like a lot of fun, 0:17:44.270 --> 0:17:46.910 but look, if you're just out spending anything you want, 0:17:46.950 --> 0:17:49.670 whenever you want, that's going to be a problem. So 0:17:49.670 --> 0:17:51.550 for the good of the marriage, the good of, of 0:17:51.550 --> 0:17:54.470 managing money in a, in a way that that reflects 0:17:54.470 --> 0:17:57.270 and that honors God, I think we have to prioritize 0:17:57.270 --> 0:17:59.629 things in order that I talked about. And like I said, 0:17:59.630 --> 0:18:01.550 when it comes to spending, it's like, what are the 0:18:01.550 --> 0:18:04.389 essential expenses? It's the housing payment, it's the grocery payment, 0:18:04.390 --> 0:18:07.629 it's the utilities and the insurance. And now what have 0:18:07.630 --> 0:18:10.710 we got available for discretionary? And when it comes down 0:18:10.710 --> 0:18:12.910 to that, that pot of money that's available for discretionary, 0:18:12.910 --> 0:18:16.189 that's vacations, that's things like the boat or hobbies or 0:18:16.190 --> 0:18:19.189 things like that. Now let's talk about it. What's what 0:18:19.190 --> 0:18:22.550 do we have available? Let's, let's reason it out together 0:18:22.550 --> 0:18:24.950 and let's decide together on how we're going to sort 0:18:24.950 --> 0:18:26.189 out those priorities. 0:18:26.230 --> 0:18:28.790 Let me stick up for the guy with the boat. 0:18:28.830 --> 0:18:32.550 He he had has said that the kids are going 0:18:32.550 --> 0:18:34.510 to go to college on that boat. So it's kind 0:18:34.510 --> 0:18:38.709 of a home school thing. So would that work? No, 0:18:38.750 --> 0:18:41.909 I'm teasing, but somebody's got to stick up for him. 0:18:43.550 --> 0:18:46.790 You know, I actually know a couple where a guy 0:18:46.830 --> 0:18:50.830 bought a boat and didn't even ask his wife about it. I'm. 0:18:50.869 --> 0:18:52.750 I'm not sure how the marriage survive, but the marriage 0:18:52.750 --> 0:18:56.310 did survive that. Uh, it's just, you know, communication is 0:18:56.310 --> 0:18:59.470 a good thing. Transparency is a good thing. Teamwork is 0:18:59.510 --> 0:19:00.270 a good thing. 0:19:00.670 --> 0:19:03.350 Yeah. I've found that's one of the major things I 0:19:03.350 --> 0:19:06.350 run into in the counseling office is someone makes a 0:19:06.350 --> 0:19:11.270 huge purchase without consulting the spouse. Wow. And you just 0:19:11.270 --> 0:19:14.590 set yourself up for trouble, not only financially, but relationally. 0:19:14.869 --> 0:19:15.350 Yeah. 0:19:15.869 --> 0:19:20.070 You write that a strong financial foundation frees couples to 0:19:20.109 --> 0:19:24.990 love God, love others, and then make a difference. What 0:19:24.990 --> 0:19:27.149 does it look like in everyday life? 0:19:28.190 --> 0:19:31.070 Yeah, those are kind of the broad brush to me. 0:19:31.070 --> 0:19:33.630 As I look at scripture, I see that those are 0:19:33.630 --> 0:19:36.830 the three overarching purposes of our lives. And when Jesus 0:19:36.830 --> 0:19:39.030 was asked what's most important, he said, Love God and 0:19:39.030 --> 0:19:42.909 love people. And then in Ephesians 210 talks about how 0:19:43.390 --> 0:19:45.550 we've been made for lives of good deeds prepared in 0:19:45.550 --> 0:19:47.950 advance for us to do. And so, so love God, 0:19:47.950 --> 0:19:50.910 love people, and make a difference in this world. And 0:19:50.910 --> 0:19:54.390 so that's really big picture. That's very those are overarching goals. 0:19:54.390 --> 0:19:57.629 But to me, those are the three overarching purposes of money. 0:19:57.830 --> 0:20:00.510 So look, if you're buying groceries and you're in the 0:20:00.510 --> 0:20:03.990 cereal aisle, that's not the time to stop and say, well, this, 0:20:04.030 --> 0:20:06.470 you know, enable me to love God, love people and, 0:20:06.510 --> 0:20:09.350 and make a difference in although, maybe, but, but, but 0:20:09.350 --> 0:20:11.270 probably it doesn't need to go that far. But if 0:20:11.310 --> 0:20:14.429 you're making a big decision like a house and now 0:20:14.430 --> 0:20:16.470 you start to think about it through that filter, will 0:20:16.470 --> 0:20:20.830 this much house in this location enable me to love God, 0:20:20.830 --> 0:20:23.750 love people, and make a difference? You know, some people, 0:20:23.790 --> 0:20:27.070 I mean mortgage. I don't want to criticize people in 0:20:27.109 --> 0:20:29.750 the real estate industry, but sometimes you hear these phrases of, 0:20:29.790 --> 0:20:33.630 you'll grow into the mortgage. Mhm. I'm not crazy about 0:20:33.630 --> 0:20:36.550 that idea. I'm crazy about the idea of I can 0:20:36.550 --> 0:20:39.430 afford the mortgage today, and I've got some guidelines in 0:20:39.430 --> 0:20:42.109 the book about what that looks like specifically. But, you know, 0:20:42.150 --> 0:20:45.110 some people, they get so enamored with a house that 0:20:45.109 --> 0:20:48.070 now they're way out of the city where they work. 0:20:48.109 --> 0:20:50.989 They've got a long commute in order to afford the 0:20:51.030 --> 0:20:53.790 sort of house and the amenities that they wanted. But 0:20:53.830 --> 0:20:56.310 is that enabling, enabling you to love your spouse? Well, 0:20:56.310 --> 0:20:58.830 that you're going to be commuting for 45 minutes to 0:20:58.830 --> 0:21:02.190 an hour each way, each day? Or is the house 0:21:02.190 --> 0:21:04.830 that may not be quite as attractive to you? That's 0:21:04.830 --> 0:21:07.070 closer to your work. That means more time together with 0:21:07.070 --> 0:21:09.669 your spouse. Is that the decision that will enable you 0:21:09.670 --> 0:21:12.750 to better love your spouse? I just I'm not saying 0:21:12.750 --> 0:21:14.510 it's a black and white decision. I'm not saying it's 0:21:14.510 --> 0:21:17.390 crystal clear, but I just think it's helpful, especially with 0:21:17.390 --> 0:21:20.510 those big decisions like that, to stop and look at it, 0:21:20.550 --> 0:21:23.340 look at these decisions through those filters. Is this honoring 0:21:23.380 --> 0:21:26.740 to God? Is this enabling me to love my spouse well? 0:21:26.900 --> 0:21:28.500 And is this enabling me to have the kind of 0:21:28.540 --> 0:21:30.580 margin I need to be able to hear and respond 0:21:30.580 --> 0:21:31.820 to God's call in my life? 0:21:32.619 --> 0:21:36.540 Yeah. What about the couples who feel like they've already 0:21:36.540 --> 0:21:40.300 made mistakes with money and they're just, you know, struggling 0:21:40.300 --> 0:21:42.659 with what do they do? Where do you start? 0:21:43.820 --> 0:21:45.540 Yeah, I would say two things. I would say it 0:21:45.540 --> 0:21:49.060 depends on what those mistakes were. If there's some forgiveness 0:21:49.060 --> 0:21:52.859 that's needed, you know, perhaps somebody had a secret account. Uh, 0:21:52.859 --> 0:21:55.500 I hear about that happening quite a, you know, more 0:21:55.500 --> 0:21:58.580 often than you might expect. And now they're realizing they 0:21:58.580 --> 0:22:00.460 feel convicted. I think, you know, there's going to be 0:22:00.460 --> 0:22:03.380 some forgiveness and some healing of the relationship and some 0:22:03.380 --> 0:22:07.500 rebuilding of trust that's needed there. But for other people, um, 0:22:07.500 --> 0:22:11.580 it may be something more like, um, just wiping the 0:22:11.580 --> 0:22:14.540 slate clean. I mean, you know, nobody comes to, to, 0:22:14.580 --> 0:22:17.220 you know, 20 years into a marriage with a clean slate, 0:22:17.220 --> 0:22:20.380 you've got some miles under, under the belt and you've 0:22:20.500 --> 0:22:22.780 got some decisions that have been made. But but I'd 0:22:22.780 --> 0:22:24.500 like to encourage people to wipe the slate clean. What 0:22:24.500 --> 0:22:29.100 would an ideal financial plan, a spending plan, cash flow 0:22:29.100 --> 0:22:32.020 plan look like at this stage? We might be far 0:22:32.020 --> 0:22:34.220 from it, but let's wipe the slate clean and create 0:22:34.220 --> 0:22:36.340 the ideal. And now how do we get there? Does 0:22:36.340 --> 0:22:39.740 that mean today we're going to stop using credit cards? 0:22:39.740 --> 0:22:43.020 Today we're going to stop going further into debt. We're 0:22:43.020 --> 0:22:45.459 going to make a decision in faith to do those things. 0:22:45.460 --> 0:22:47.700 And I'll tell you, Gary, I've seen couples do some 0:22:47.700 --> 0:22:50.659 radical things to get into a better place spiritually, to 0:22:50.660 --> 0:22:53.100 get into a better place maritally to get to a 0:22:53.100 --> 0:22:56.419 better place emotionally. I've seen people I know of two 0:22:56.460 --> 0:23:00.100 couples that have sold homes. One of them I think 0:23:00.140 --> 0:23:02.939 actually in both cases, they were dream homes that these 0:23:02.940 --> 0:23:05.740 couples pursued. And when they got into these dream homes, 0:23:05.740 --> 0:23:08.540 they realized it was hurting their marriage. It was so expensive. 0:23:08.540 --> 0:23:11.380 It was not affordable. It was hindering their ability to 0:23:11.420 --> 0:23:14.580 save for their future and for their kids college. They 0:23:14.619 --> 0:23:17.860 sold their homes and moved in one case moved in 0:23:17.900 --> 0:23:21.740 for free to the basement of another couple. These are 0:23:21.780 --> 0:23:26.900 difficult decisions. These are embarrassing sometimes, and certainly uncomfortable and 0:23:26.900 --> 0:23:29.780 time consuming and not easy. But I just think, you know, 0:23:29.820 --> 0:23:32.580 we believe in a big God. So it starts with 0:23:32.580 --> 0:23:35.460 that conviction that something's got to change. And then it 0:23:35.500 --> 0:23:38.860 comes down to holding everything with an open hand and saying, 0:23:39.020 --> 0:23:41.500 you know, even this house, as difficult as it would 0:23:41.500 --> 0:23:44.580 be to sell this house, this is what we're going 0:23:44.580 --> 0:23:46.379 to do for the sake of the marriage and for 0:23:46.380 --> 0:23:49.660 the sake of getting to a better place financially. So 0:23:49.940 --> 0:23:52.980 it's getting to a better place possible. Absolutely. And it 0:23:52.980 --> 0:23:56.179 starts with decisions made in faith, and then it steps 0:23:56.180 --> 0:24:00.500 into holding everything with an open hand and questioning everything. 0:24:00.540 --> 0:24:03.100 I've seen couples go from two car households to one 0:24:03.100 --> 0:24:06.180 car households when they just assumed that couldn't possibly work. 0:24:06.180 --> 0:24:08.500 But there are things that can work in a very 0:24:08.500 --> 0:24:10.540 practical basis to get to a better place. 0:24:11.740 --> 0:24:14.380 So even couples have been married 10 or 20 years 0:24:14.380 --> 0:24:17.580 and they're in a really, really, really bad place. I'm 0:24:17.580 --> 0:24:20.220 hearing you saying there can always be a reset. There 0:24:20.220 --> 0:24:23.140 can always be a rebuilding of unity. 0:24:23.900 --> 0:24:27.060 Absolutely. And don't try to do it alone. You know, 0:24:27.100 --> 0:24:30.900 come alongside another couple that that perhaps you admire. You 0:24:30.940 --> 0:24:34.780 see that they're kind of keeping things real financially in 0:24:34.780 --> 0:24:38.540 their lives or seek some help through to through their church. 0:24:38.660 --> 0:24:42.619 There are many churches with really wonderful stewardship ministries or 0:24:42.660 --> 0:24:46.739 a trusted pastor or counselor. Um, don't don't try to 0:24:46.780 --> 0:24:49.620 do it on your own. Seek some community. Seek some 0:24:49.619 --> 0:24:50.780 assistance with it. 0:24:52.180 --> 0:24:56.500 This is the building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast. 0:24:56.540 --> 0:24:58.900 He's the author of the New York Times best seller, 0:24:58.940 --> 0:25:02.980 The Five Love Languages. We're talking with author and stewardship 0:25:02.980 --> 0:25:06.820 expert Matt Bell today. His book is our featured resource 0:25:06.820 --> 0:25:12.500 at Building relationships.us. It's titled Starting Strong Discovering the Good 0:25:12.500 --> 0:25:15.100 That Money Can Do in Your Marriage. You can hear 0:25:15.210 --> 0:25:18.609 our conversation again or suggest it to someone else right 0:25:18.609 --> 0:25:24.250 there at building relationships.us, or go to five Love languages.com. 0:25:26.369 --> 0:25:30.010 Matt, what do you think about separate bank accounts for 0:25:30.010 --> 0:25:31.690 the husband and the wife? 0:25:32.450 --> 0:25:36.570 Yeah, I strongly encourage people to have joint accounts. Not 0:25:36.570 --> 0:25:39.450 every account can be made. Joint and individual retirement account, 0:25:39.450 --> 0:25:43.930 after all, is an individual retirement account. But all the accounts, 0:25:43.930 --> 0:25:46.890 savings account checking account, things that can be joint. I 0:25:46.890 --> 0:25:50.850 strongly encourage that because it just fosters unity, it fosters 0:25:51.090 --> 0:25:54.330 teamwork and trust. And there was actually an interesting study 0:25:54.330 --> 0:25:57.930 out of Indiana University not that long ago that found 0:25:57.930 --> 0:26:01.250 that couples that combine their finances tend to have a 0:26:01.250 --> 0:26:06.770 higher quality marriage. And the researcher again, secular university, the 0:26:06.770 --> 0:26:10.290 researcher said something like, um, it just seems that when 0:26:10.290 --> 0:26:15.129 couples are completely transparent and working together that fosters a 0:26:15.130 --> 0:26:19.050 level of trust that that greatly aids in the happiness 0:26:19.050 --> 0:26:19.970 of the marriage. 0:26:20.890 --> 0:26:25.290 Yeah, that makes sense. Well, you know, most couples bring 0:26:25.290 --> 0:26:29.650 a lot of stuff into their marriage. You know, different upbringings, 0:26:29.690 --> 0:26:33.330 you know, different hopes and dreams, different temperaments, which you 0:26:33.330 --> 0:26:38.850 mentioned earlier. What foundational areas of common ground should couples 0:26:38.850 --> 0:26:41.410 seek to find early on in a marriage? 0:26:42.450 --> 0:26:44.609 Yeah, I think this is going to sound kind of 0:26:44.650 --> 0:26:47.570 big picture, but I think it's really essential in the book, 0:26:48.090 --> 0:26:51.170 in one of the opening chapters, I encourage couples to 0:26:51.210 --> 0:26:55.369 pray five prayers together. And they may not have a 0:26:55.369 --> 0:26:59.090 ton to do with really specific nitty gritty financial decisions, 0:26:59.090 --> 0:27:02.130 but they just set the tone for the marriage. And 0:27:02.130 --> 0:27:03.889 so it's that, you know, number one, we're going to 0:27:03.930 --> 0:27:07.330 serve the Lord. Um, you know, choose for yourself this 0:27:07.330 --> 0:27:09.530 day whom we will serve. As for me and my household, 0:27:09.530 --> 0:27:12.850 as for us and our house, we will serve the Lord. Secondly, 0:27:12.850 --> 0:27:14.810 we will build our marriage on the firm foundation of 0:27:14.810 --> 0:27:17.090 God's Word. You know the parable of the the wise 0:27:17.090 --> 0:27:18.969 and the foolish builders. We're going to build on the 0:27:18.970 --> 0:27:22.250 solid rock of God's Word. Third is we're going to 0:27:22.250 --> 0:27:25.410 seek unity in our marriage. I love Ecclesiastes, a cord 0:27:25.410 --> 0:27:28.169 of three strands not easily broken. When Jude and I 0:27:28.170 --> 0:27:30.409 were first married and we didn't have any kids, we. 0:27:30.570 --> 0:27:33.570 We talked about. It's just the three of us God, 0:27:33.570 --> 0:27:35.730 Jude and me. And now that we have three kids, 0:27:35.730 --> 0:27:38.330 it's just the six of us. And so we're going 0:27:38.369 --> 0:27:41.370 to seek that sort of unity in our marriage. The 0:27:41.369 --> 0:27:43.490 fourth thing is to take to heart the lessons from 0:27:43.490 --> 0:27:45.690 the parable of the talents. And the first lesson from 0:27:45.690 --> 0:27:49.210 the parable of the talents is that God owns everything. 0:27:49.330 --> 0:27:52.609 We are managers of what God has generously entrusted to 0:27:52.609 --> 0:27:55.490 our care. I'll tell you that in stewardship circles, that 0:27:55.490 --> 0:27:57.570 may sound like it's been said so many times, it 0:27:57.570 --> 0:27:59.129 just kind of goes in one ear and out the other. 0:27:59.130 --> 0:28:00.969 But but I'll tell you that is profound. And that 0:28:00.970 --> 0:28:03.610 is so different than how our culture teaches us. But 0:28:03.609 --> 0:28:07.250 if we will come at money together as a couple 0:28:07.450 --> 0:28:11.050 with this, um, with this his truth, living from this 0:28:11.050 --> 0:28:14.929 truth that God owns everything and we are managers to 0:28:14.970 --> 0:28:17.370 managers of what he has temporarily entrusted to our care. 0:28:17.770 --> 0:28:20.530 To me, Gary, that is the foundation of biblical money management. 0:28:20.530 --> 0:28:25.010 That is the beginning of financial wisdom. And then the 0:28:25.010 --> 0:28:27.729 last part is that we will direct our use of 0:28:27.730 --> 0:28:30.850 money to the purposes we talked about earlier. So again, 0:28:30.850 --> 0:28:33.050 big picture, but we will direct our use of money 0:28:33.050 --> 0:28:35.410 in ways that that are that's honoring to God. That 0:28:35.410 --> 0:28:38.850 kind of expresses our faith in God. And secondly, that 0:28:38.850 --> 0:28:41.770 enables us to love well each other and the other 0:28:41.770 --> 0:28:44.130 people in our lives. And that will free us from 0:28:44.130 --> 0:28:46.650 the entanglements so many people get into so that we 0:28:46.690 --> 0:28:49.970 are free to, to really hear, discern, and respond to 0:28:50.010 --> 0:28:52.370 God's call in our lives. So those are those are 0:28:52.370 --> 0:28:55.930 big picture prayers. But that's a wonderful starting point for 0:28:55.930 --> 0:28:56.850 any marriage. 0:28:57.650 --> 0:29:02.530 Yeah. And the fact that they're praying together about those things, that's, that's, 0:29:02.530 --> 0:29:06.730 that's very bonding. Uh, I, I've always found. Yeah. Now 0:29:06.730 --> 0:29:10.320 you say that how couples prioritize their use of money 0:29:10.360 --> 0:29:13.640 will make all the difference in their financial success and 0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:17.800 marital happiness. What's the usual way that people go about this? 0:29:17.840 --> 0:29:19.320 And what's the better way? 0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:22.720 Yeah, I'll tell you, if couples will do this, it'll 0:29:22.800 --> 0:29:25.800 be a game changer. So there's only a handful of 0:29:25.800 --> 0:29:27.400 things you can do with money. If you really think 0:29:27.400 --> 0:29:29.560 about it. You can you can spend it. You can 0:29:29.560 --> 0:29:33.160 use it for debt payments. You can save it, invest it, 0:29:33.160 --> 0:29:35.200 or you can give it away. And the way I 0:29:35.200 --> 0:29:38.280 just rattled those five things off is the order that 0:29:38.280 --> 0:29:41.360 our culture encourages in so many ways. If our culture 0:29:41.360 --> 0:29:45.600 could speak, I'm convinced it would say, great, you're making whatever, 0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:48.920 $75,000 a year. That means you can live here, drive this, 0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:52.760 wear that vacation there. It's all about spending first. That's 0:29:52.800 --> 0:29:54.959 I mean, that's how I lived before I, before I 0:29:54.960 --> 0:29:58.959 became a Christian. That's the way of the world. And 0:29:58.960 --> 0:30:01.240 yet the Bible flips it on its head. It says, 0:30:01.480 --> 0:30:04.160 if you will, if you will give first and then 0:30:04.160 --> 0:30:07.720 save a portion and then invest for the future, and 0:30:07.720 --> 0:30:10.280 then determine how much house you can afford and how 0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:13.400 much car you can can drive and where you can vacation, 0:30:13.400 --> 0:30:15.800 and if you will be cautious in your use of debt. 0:30:15.800 --> 0:30:19.360 I encourage no debt other than a reasonable mortgage. Wow. 0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:23.080 That is a game changer. That is so simple. We're 0:30:23.080 --> 0:30:26.360 going to we're going to give first, save second, invest third, 0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:28.560 and then spend and decide how much we can afford 0:30:28.560 --> 0:30:30.880 to spend. And we're going to be cautious about becoming 0:30:30.880 --> 0:30:35.960 enslaved to creditors. That is so simple and so effective 0:30:35.960 --> 0:30:39.959 and so biblical and unfortunately so rare. But but I 0:30:40.000 --> 0:30:41.959 but but wow, if couples from the beginning of their 0:30:41.960 --> 0:30:45.120 marriage will set up their finances along those priorities, that 0:30:45.120 --> 0:30:47.280 will make a huge difference in their lives. 0:30:47.840 --> 0:30:50.200 That is radical in today's culture. 0:30:51.520 --> 0:30:51.960 It sure. 0:30:51.960 --> 0:30:52.240 Is. 0:30:52.280 --> 0:30:54.480 Not not for the Christian. I mean, who's really walking 0:30:54.480 --> 0:30:59.360 with God? Because that's exactly what the scriptures would tell us. Yeah. Mhm. 0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:02.400 So you tell a story of Karen and Scott, who 0:31:02.400 --> 0:31:07.160 began their marriage with a $50,000 credit card debt that 0:31:07.160 --> 0:31:10.040 Karen brought into the marriage. What are some of the 0:31:10.040 --> 0:31:13.800 most important lessons that readers can learn from their story? 0:31:14.680 --> 0:31:17.560 Out of all the couples I've met, where they've been, 0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:19.840 where they've entrusted me with their story, this is the 0:31:19.840 --> 0:31:23.000 couple that that I just I just love their story. 0:31:23.160 --> 0:31:27.240 It motivates me. It's just a powerful story. So as 0:31:27.240 --> 0:31:30.080 you said, they started out with 5000 of credit card 0:31:30.080 --> 0:31:32.640 debt that she brought into the marriage. And, and he 0:31:32.640 --> 0:31:36.640 called it a reverse dowry. So he had kind of 0:31:36.680 --> 0:31:38.520 a light sense of humor about the whole thing at 0:31:38.520 --> 0:31:41.040 the beginning. But I'll tell you that there are two 0:31:41.040 --> 0:31:44.320 things I love about their story, especially. One of those 0:31:44.320 --> 0:31:47.320 things is that in their early days of marriage, Karen 0:31:47.320 --> 0:31:49.200 felt so bad about all this debt that she brought 0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:51.280 into their marriage. She would always talk about my debt 0:31:51.280 --> 0:31:53.440 as keeping us from doing this. My debt is such 0:31:53.480 --> 0:31:57.000 a hindrance. And he always corrected her from the beginning 0:31:57.000 --> 0:31:59.440 days of their marriage. No, no, no, it is not yours. 0:31:59.480 --> 0:32:02.680 It's our debt. And I just think that is such 0:32:02.840 --> 0:32:05.720 an act of leadership, that is such an act of love. 0:32:05.920 --> 0:32:08.200 I mean, I really believe if a couple gets married 0:32:08.200 --> 0:32:10.080 and one has a lot of debt before they get married, 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:11.920 after they get married, they both have a lot of debt. 0:32:11.960 --> 0:32:14.040 If one has a lot of wealth before they get married, 0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:16.400 after they get married, they both have a lot of wealth. 0:32:16.400 --> 0:32:19.280 That's the essence of oneness in marriage. And, and the 0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:22.240 other thing I love about their story is that they 0:32:22.440 --> 0:32:25.600 gave generously throughout their. I think it was a seven 0:32:25.640 --> 0:32:29.200 year journey out of debt. They gave generously. It was 0:32:29.200 --> 0:32:32.120 just a conviction that, hey, it's not, you know, we're 0:32:32.120 --> 0:32:35.600 not blaming God for our financial situation. We feel compelled 0:32:35.600 --> 0:32:38.840 to give or designed in God's image. God is endlessly generous. 0:32:38.840 --> 0:32:42.720 We're going to live generously. It cost them something. They 0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:45.040 couldn't buy a house they couldn't afford to. They rented 0:32:45.040 --> 0:32:48.520 for those long seven years because because they're getting out 0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:50.960 of debt and because they're living generously. But I just 0:32:50.960 --> 0:32:54.120 find that so compelling because, you know, again, for him 0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:56.520 to have that attitude that this is our debt, we're 0:32:56.520 --> 0:32:59.040 in this together. And for them to continue to live 0:32:59.040 --> 0:33:03.430 generously despite their circumstances is just very, very compelling to me. 0:33:03.470 --> 0:33:08.230 Yeah, yeah. And very unusual with with a lot of couples, 0:33:08.390 --> 0:33:11.310 you know, especially the giving part. And, you know, most 0:33:11.310 --> 0:33:13.190 would think, well, let's get the debt paid first. Then 0:33:13.190 --> 0:33:14.270 we can start giving. 0:33:14.750 --> 0:33:16.150 No, that's exactly right. 0:33:16.430 --> 0:33:20.670 That's great. Great advice. Some couples may fear having children 0:33:20.910 --> 0:33:25.390 because of their financial costs. They read about that. So 0:33:25.430 --> 0:33:27.390 what would you say to those parents? 0:33:28.350 --> 0:33:30.750 It kind of tears me up to actually address this 0:33:30.750 --> 0:33:34.910 issue because I just couldn't imagine not having kids. Um, 0:33:34.950 --> 0:33:36.630 and so if God has put it on your heart 0:33:36.630 --> 0:33:39.790 to have children, and I think he puts it on 0:33:40.270 --> 0:33:43.310 a lot of people's hearts. And I think, you know, that's, 0:33:43.470 --> 0:33:46.910 that needs to lead and we will find a way 0:33:46.910 --> 0:33:49.630 and God will find a way. If I would not 0:33:49.630 --> 0:33:53.310 ever let, let cost, let money get in the way 0:33:53.310 --> 0:33:57.270 of a decision like that. And in a really practical sense, 0:33:57.470 --> 0:34:01.510 your spending will naturally change. You know, when you have children, 0:34:01.750 --> 0:34:03.990 you won't be going out to eat as often. You 0:34:03.990 --> 0:34:06.430 won't be going on the same types of vacations as before. 0:34:06.630 --> 0:34:08.989 So it's just a really practical sense. Your money will 0:34:08.989 --> 0:34:12.710 tend to kind of be rearranged anyway, and you won't 0:34:12.710 --> 0:34:15.069 miss that. You'll love it. You. You will. So love 0:34:15.110 --> 0:34:18.189 being a parent that that's, it's just a natural thing 0:34:18.190 --> 0:34:22.469 that you're spending. Priorities will start to change. I just, 0:34:22.469 --> 0:34:27.230 I don't know, as a dad, I just can't imagine, um, 0:34:27.270 --> 0:34:30.630 making that a financial decision. I just think if that's 0:34:30.670 --> 0:34:32.350 on your heart, that God has put it on your 0:34:32.350 --> 0:34:35.470 heart to have children, I would go forward in faith 0:34:35.469 --> 0:34:39.430 and God will provide for you and make that possible. 0:34:40.030 --> 0:34:43.230 Yeah. And I think, uh, you know, having children is 0:34:43.510 --> 0:34:46.670 adds so much to a marriage. Now I know it's trying. 0:34:46.710 --> 0:34:48.549 I know there's a lot of pressure and I know there's, 0:34:48.590 --> 0:34:51.470 you know, a whole thing of child rearing is not easy, 0:34:51.830 --> 0:34:54.990 but it's greatly rewarding. Those of us who have had children, 0:34:54.989 --> 0:34:56.710 I think would testify to that. 0:34:57.230 --> 0:34:58.070 Absolutely. 0:34:58.710 --> 0:35:02.790 Matt, in the book, you talk about Jessica and Alex. Uh, 0:35:03.150 --> 0:35:05.070 what is their story? Teach us? 0:35:05.989 --> 0:35:09.149 Yeah, I love their story. I first met them when 0:35:09.150 --> 0:35:14.110 they were newly married, new college graduates. They're both in ministry. Um, 0:35:14.110 --> 0:35:17.029 and they, at the time, this was about 15 years ago. 0:35:17.030 --> 0:35:19.830 At that time, they were kind of struggling with can 0:35:19.830 --> 0:35:22.390 we afford to give or both in, in ministry, but 0:35:22.390 --> 0:35:24.870 it was the budget, some crazy practical tool, like a 0:35:24.870 --> 0:35:27.990 budget that that showed them that actually they can afford 0:35:27.989 --> 0:35:31.390 to live generously. But now flash forward and they have 0:35:31.390 --> 0:35:34.589 three kids now and one of which their youngest is 0:35:34.590 --> 0:35:39.069 severely disabled. Um, a lot of cost involved in that 0:35:39.070 --> 0:35:42.549 and both of them still in ministry. And so you say, well, 0:35:42.550 --> 0:35:46.270 how do they make that work? They said the literal 0:35:46.270 --> 0:35:48.390 words that they used when I talked with them about 0:35:48.390 --> 0:35:52.150 this is that money doesn't rule their lives. They use 0:35:52.150 --> 0:35:53.950 a budget, they have a plan. They do all the 0:35:53.950 --> 0:35:58.589 practical things around money, but money doesn't rule. Their faith does. 0:35:58.630 --> 0:36:01.230 And so sometimes that might mean going to a restaurant 0:36:01.230 --> 0:36:04.830 and being especially generous in their tip to the server. 0:36:05.070 --> 0:36:07.469 It may not make practical sense. It may seem like 0:36:07.469 --> 0:36:09.750 the unwise thing to do, but if they feel led 0:36:09.750 --> 0:36:12.870 to do that, money doesn't rule their faith rules. And 0:36:12.870 --> 0:36:16.710 when it comes to their child, a ministry found actually, 0:36:16.710 --> 0:36:18.310 I don't even think it was a Christian ministry, to 0:36:18.310 --> 0:36:21.910 be honest. I think it was just a nonprofit, found 0:36:21.910 --> 0:36:25.790 out about their situation, were so compelled by their situation. 0:36:25.790 --> 0:36:29.430 They held a golf outing fundraiser and ended up sending 0:36:29.430 --> 0:36:31.950 them a large check that that went a long way 0:36:31.989 --> 0:36:35.070 toward helping them pay for a very expensive van that's 0:36:35.070 --> 0:36:39.989 equipped to handle their daughter's wheelchair. And so it's just 0:36:39.989 --> 0:36:44.550 a great example of money doesn't lead money doesn't rule. God, 0:36:44.590 --> 0:36:46.830 you know, it sounds like a trite phrase God will provide, 0:36:46.830 --> 0:36:50.390 but it's actually true. And for them to, to not 0:36:50.390 --> 0:36:53.469 let money take that, that dominant place in their lives, 0:36:53.820 --> 0:36:57.100 They've just lived this great example of a life. 0:36:57.900 --> 0:37:02.220 Yeah. Chris, since you wanted to buy that boat, let's 0:37:02.219 --> 0:37:07.580 go back to the husband who wants a boat. What 0:37:07.580 --> 0:37:11.260 if he changes his mind? And he. And he said, well, okay, 0:37:11.260 --> 0:37:12.859 I'll give up the boat. What I want to do 0:37:12.860 --> 0:37:16.260 is to save for retirement. And the wife is still 0:37:16.260 --> 0:37:19.500 pressing the issue of saving money for the children's education. 0:37:19.980 --> 0:37:21.500 What would you say to that, Matt? 0:37:22.100 --> 0:37:24.819 Yeah, I'd say two things. I'd say. One, from a 0:37:24.820 --> 0:37:28.660 just really practical standpoint, you know, and I'd want to 0:37:28.660 --> 0:37:31.299 be careful how I worded this and encourage him to 0:37:31.300 --> 0:37:34.100 be careful how he words this, perhaps, or how they 0:37:34.140 --> 0:37:37.100 have the conversation. But I think it makes more sense 0:37:37.100 --> 0:37:41.660 to prioritize later years than it does children's education, because 0:37:41.660 --> 0:37:44.500 there are more options around the kids education. I mean, 0:37:44.580 --> 0:37:47.060 I love setting the goal in faith that our kids 0:37:47.060 --> 0:37:48.900 are going to if they if they go to college 0:37:48.900 --> 0:37:50.980 and it's not the right path for every, every kid. 0:37:50.980 --> 0:37:53.140 But if they're going to go to college, There are 0:37:53.140 --> 0:37:57.339 ways to go through college without debt. But um. But 0:37:57.340 --> 0:37:59.940 but if but if it's needed. There are some financing 0:37:59.940 --> 0:38:03.219 options available there. Whereas later years, I mean, if you're 0:38:03.219 --> 0:38:05.500 70 years old and you for some sort of physical 0:38:05.500 --> 0:38:08.899 reason can no longer work. That's really hard to find 0:38:08.900 --> 0:38:11.540 a way to finance that. So I would just a 0:38:11.540 --> 0:38:14.420 really practical standpoint, I would put retirement or later years. 0:38:14.460 --> 0:38:19.020 I prefer, um, over, over child's education. But the other 0:38:19.020 --> 0:38:21.300 thing I want to be sensitive to here is I just, 0:38:21.580 --> 0:38:24.580 you know, I wouldn't want any couple to be really, 0:38:24.620 --> 0:38:27.259 I don't know, domineering in the conversation. I'd want to 0:38:27.260 --> 0:38:31.259 be careful. I'd want to be thoughtful about why is 0:38:31.260 --> 0:38:33.620 it that there is such a priority here around the 0:38:33.660 --> 0:38:36.540 kids education? And can we you know, it's not necessarily 0:38:36.540 --> 0:38:39.300 an either or sort of thing. You can be saving 0:38:39.300 --> 0:38:41.820 wisely for your later years, but at the same time 0:38:41.860 --> 0:38:44.300 tucking away some money for the kids education as well. 0:38:45.700 --> 0:38:49.779 Now, you talked earlier about the idea of even if 0:38:49.780 --> 0:38:52.620 you have two people working in the home, you live 0:38:52.620 --> 0:38:56.460 on one salary. But talk about the parents who both 0:38:56.460 --> 0:39:00.620 work outside the home. When the children are small, they 0:39:00.620 --> 0:39:03.779 say they can't make it on one income. What do 0:39:03.780 --> 0:39:04.860 you say to that family? 0:39:06.180 --> 0:39:09.300 Yeah, I say maybe they can. I mean, look, I've 0:39:09.300 --> 0:39:13.060 seen situations where things were just so tight and every 0:39:13.060 --> 0:39:16.500 possible option was explored and maybe they can't. And so 0:39:16.500 --> 0:39:19.299 I'm not saying I'm not trying to make it sound easy, 0:39:19.420 --> 0:39:22.379 but I think for a lot of families, there are 0:39:22.380 --> 0:39:26.100 more options than they may realize. I think that, you know, 0:39:26.140 --> 0:39:28.740 we get sort of acclimated to what our friends are doing, 0:39:28.739 --> 0:39:32.580 what our perhaps siblings are doing. And we're, we find 0:39:32.580 --> 0:39:35.180 ourselves maybe even not even really conscious of, but kind 0:39:35.180 --> 0:39:38.460 of emulating their life. But I think that if there 0:39:38.460 --> 0:39:41.100 is the desire for one to stay home and it 0:39:41.100 --> 0:39:44.299 seems impossible, I would just question everything. As we talked 0:39:44.300 --> 0:39:47.740 about earlier, holding everything with an open hand, questioning everything. 0:39:47.780 --> 0:39:49.899 Can we go from two cars to one car? Can 0:39:49.940 --> 0:39:53.780 we perhaps get into a more affordable living situation? Again, 0:39:53.780 --> 0:39:55.739 some of these things are not easy and may not 0:39:55.739 --> 0:39:58.299 be possible for some people. But I'll tell you, there's 0:39:58.300 --> 0:40:01.060 a radically different cost of living in different parts of 0:40:01.060 --> 0:40:03.540 the country. I thought that we were going to live 0:40:03.540 --> 0:40:06.299 in Chicago all of our days, and God had other 0:40:06.300 --> 0:40:10.060 plans and moved us to Louisville, Kentucky, and I didn't 0:40:10.060 --> 0:40:12.980 have a great appreciation for what a difference there is 0:40:12.980 --> 0:40:16.380 in cost of living. Louisville, Kentucky is way less expensive 0:40:16.420 --> 0:40:19.820 than living in Chicago. Property taxes are less than half. 0:40:20.140 --> 0:40:22.739 And it makes a big difference. And so I just 0:40:22.739 --> 0:40:26.380 question everything. Some of the decisions won't be easy. Selling 0:40:26.380 --> 0:40:29.140 a house, getting to a more affordable situation, going from 0:40:29.140 --> 0:40:32.219 two cars to one. Um, maybe it's a longer term plan. 0:40:32.219 --> 0:40:34.380 It's not going to happen overnight, but maybe it's about 0:40:34.420 --> 0:40:37.380 a little bit further education for the primary breadwinner to 0:40:37.420 --> 0:40:40.219 be able to position themselves for a better, better job. 0:40:40.460 --> 0:40:43.340 I just think, again, the idea that money doesn't rule. 0:40:43.460 --> 0:40:45.660 We're going to make this decision in faith. We feel 0:40:45.700 --> 0:40:47.810 led to have one person stay at home. We're going 0:40:47.850 --> 0:40:51.050 to question everything and we're going to see how God provides. 0:40:51.969 --> 0:40:53.689 Matt, I think you just talked a lot of people 0:40:53.690 --> 0:40:55.730 in the moving to Kentucky. Okay. 0:40:57.530 --> 0:40:59.090 Come on down. It's nice. 0:41:02.130 --> 0:41:06.890 You talked about the advantages of giving and living generously, 0:41:06.890 --> 0:41:10.969 which the scripture certainly, uh, you know, encourage us. Uh, 0:41:10.969 --> 0:41:13.850 but when couples start out, they usually are, you know, 0:41:13.890 --> 0:41:16.410 don't have a whole lot of money, but they can 0:41:16.410 --> 0:41:18.850 still give away, they can still give. Right? 0:41:19.730 --> 0:41:22.569 Absolutely. You know, again, if you, if you will prioritize, 0:41:22.610 --> 0:41:24.810 you know, wipe the slate clean. You know, I realize 0:41:24.810 --> 0:41:27.609 people come into marriage with with stuff as we talked 0:41:27.610 --> 0:41:31.049 about earlier, but but wipe the slate clean and just 0:41:31.090 --> 0:41:33.009 what would it look like to design a plan where 0:41:33.010 --> 0:41:35.370 we're going to give the first portion to the Lord? 0:41:35.370 --> 0:41:38.530 We're going to save a portion, invest a portion, and 0:41:38.530 --> 0:41:41.210 then we're going to spend that might look radically different 0:41:41.210 --> 0:41:43.649 than how things go today. And you may not get 0:41:43.650 --> 0:41:47.850 there overnight, but you can get there. And so I 0:41:47.850 --> 0:41:51.130 think it's about making it a priority. You know, if 0:41:51.410 --> 0:41:54.370 giving is first on your priority list, it'll always happen. 0:41:54.370 --> 0:41:57.650 If saving is second on the it'll happen again. It 0:41:57.650 --> 0:42:00.330 might take some work to readjust things and figure out 0:42:00.330 --> 0:42:02.730 the spending thing to get that under control. But I 0:42:02.730 --> 0:42:04.930 think it's a matter of setting those priorities in faith 0:42:04.930 --> 0:42:07.690 and pursuing, again, might take a couple of years to 0:42:07.690 --> 0:42:10.930 get your get your finances rearranged that way, but that's 0:42:10.930 --> 0:42:13.890 the goal to give first, save second, invest third, and 0:42:13.890 --> 0:42:16.650 then decide how much how much lifestyle you can afford. 0:42:17.130 --> 0:42:21.250 Yeah. And I think if giving is our priority, we 0:42:21.250 --> 0:42:24.090 also will do better in everything else. 0:42:25.290 --> 0:42:27.650 Amen. Amen. Absolutely. 0:42:28.250 --> 0:42:31.250 Now, in the book, uh, Matt, you have an appendix 0:42:31.730 --> 0:42:35.490 and it helps a couple track their monthly cash flow. 0:42:36.090 --> 0:42:38.690 How important is keeping track of the flow? 0:42:39.450 --> 0:42:42.410 It is so important. And, and that's the part of 0:42:42.410 --> 0:42:44.529 using a cash flow plan that people really don't like, 0:42:44.570 --> 0:42:48.009 they're keeping track. So there are some automated tools out there. 0:42:48.050 --> 0:42:51.130 There are some online tools you can get into. If 0:42:51.130 --> 0:42:53.410 someone hasn't used a cash flow plan at first, just 0:42:53.410 --> 0:42:56.490 start paper and pencil or an Excel spreadsheet. But eventually 0:42:56.489 --> 0:42:58.450 when you move up to A, to a, to an 0:42:58.489 --> 0:43:02.009 online tool, it can do some of the work for you. But, but, 0:43:02.010 --> 0:43:05.210 but again, we're managing God's resources. We need a tool 0:43:05.250 --> 0:43:08.170 to manage his resources. Otherwise we're just guessing and hoping 0:43:08.170 --> 0:43:09.489 it's all going to work out at the end of 0:43:09.489 --> 0:43:12.489 each month. So so it's really helpful that way. There's 0:43:12.489 --> 0:43:15.250 also research out there that shows that that a marriage 0:43:15.250 --> 0:43:18.930 will suffer if one spouse thinks the other one spends 0:43:18.930 --> 0:43:21.930 money irresponsibly. A budget. I love the idea of like 0:43:21.930 --> 0:43:23.969 structural things that we set up in our in our 0:43:23.969 --> 0:43:26.090 marriage just for the good of the marriage, for the 0:43:26.090 --> 0:43:28.969 good of our relationship with Christ. And a budget is 0:43:28.969 --> 0:43:32.130 one of those tools that sounds so practical, it sounds 0:43:32.130 --> 0:43:34.730 so boring, and yet it is so powerful. I think 0:43:34.730 --> 0:43:36.970 it's the most powerful tool anybody can use to manage 0:43:36.969 --> 0:43:41.049 money effectively and with peace of mind. And so tracking now, 0:43:41.050 --> 0:43:43.730 now we're working from knowledge. If you're tracking your use 0:43:43.730 --> 0:43:46.090 of money now, you're not, you know, maybe accusing the 0:43:46.090 --> 0:43:48.569 spouse of overspending and now, you know, you have some 0:43:48.610 --> 0:43:52.210 actual information. And that's the most powerful position to be 0:43:52.210 --> 0:43:55.089 able to truly manage money. So someone who's not used 0:43:55.090 --> 0:43:58.370 a budget before, wow, I strongly encourage just take it 0:43:58.370 --> 0:44:01.410 on faith. It will serve you so well. 0:44:01.770 --> 0:44:04.450 Yeah. Well, man, let me thank you for being with 0:44:04.450 --> 0:44:07.250 us today. And thank you for writing this book. I 0:44:07.250 --> 0:44:09.410 think it's going to be really helpful. I like the 0:44:09.410 --> 0:44:12.330 fact that it's so practical. I also like the fact 0:44:12.330 --> 0:44:15.689 that you follow the biblical pattern that we began by 0:44:15.690 --> 0:44:19.730 honoring God, and then God will help us with all 0:44:19.730 --> 0:44:22.650 the rest of it. And also the emphasis that you 0:44:22.690 --> 0:44:25.729 have along the way, that happiness is not found in 0:44:25.730 --> 0:44:30.650 a collection of things. It's found in relationships. You know, 0:44:30.890 --> 0:44:33.529 first of all, with God, then with your spouse and 0:44:33.530 --> 0:44:36.730 then with other people. Well, so thank you again for 0:44:36.730 --> 0:44:37.810 being with us today. 0:44:38.050 --> 0:44:40.800 Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity. 0:44:41.280 --> 0:44:46.440 What if the wife wants to buy the boat? Okay. 0:44:46.920 --> 0:44:49.479 I'll stop. I'll get off the boat. Again, the title 0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:53.840 of our featured resource is Starting Strong. Discovering the good 0:44:53.840 --> 0:44:56.520 that money can do in Your marriage. It's by our guest, 0:44:56.520 --> 0:45:01.920 Matt Bell, and you can find out more at Building relationships.us. Again, 0:45:01.920 --> 0:45:04.320 go to Building relationships.us. 0:45:04.800 --> 0:45:08.320 And next week, how to find God's purpose in your 0:45:08.320 --> 0:45:09.880 suffering and struggles. 0:45:10.200 --> 0:45:13.640 Dustin Crowe says your wilderness is not a waste. Hear 0:45:13.640 --> 0:45:16.279 more in one week. A big thank you to our 0:45:16.280 --> 0:45:20.680 production team, Steve Wick and Janice backing. Building relationships with 0:45:20.680 --> 0:45:23.520 Doctor Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in 0:45:23.520 --> 0:45:27.440 Chicago in association with Moody Publishers, a Ministry of Moody 0:45:27.440 --> 0:45:29.799 Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.