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S1: Hi friends. Thanks so much for downloading this podcast, and

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S1: I hope truly that you will hear something that will encourage, edify,

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S1: equip and enlighten you to get out there and influence

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S1: and occupy until he comes. And on that note, may

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S1: I take just a few moments here to describe this

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S1: month's truth tool? It's by pastor Jack Hibbs. He's written

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S1: the book called Called to Take a Bold Stand. I

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S1: absolutely love this book because it reminds us that in

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S1: Christ all things pass away. All things become new, that

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S1: we are standing for his truth, that we have a

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S1: new nature. Because of him, we should be living boldly.

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S1: But far too often we retreat out of fear from

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S1: cultural blowback. So I want to encourage all of us

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S1: to just stand up for Christ, to be unashamed of

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S1: who we are in him, and to go into a

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S1: culture that's telling us in no uncertain terms. They're lost

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S1: and they're hurting. So if you'd like a copy of

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S1: Pastor Hibbs new book called Call to Take a Bold Stand,

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S1: just give a gift of any amount by calling eight, seven, seven.

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S1: Janet 58. We are listener supported radio, and this is

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S1: my way of saying thank you. So that number again

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S1: is 877 Janet 58. Or you can go online in

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S1: the market with Janet dot o r g. Go to

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S1: the bottom of the page. There's the cover of Pastor

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S1: Jack's book. Click it on, give a gift and you'll

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S1: be good to go. And we'll send you a copy

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S1: as a way of saying thank you. Don't forget, you

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S1: can also become a partial partner. Those are people who

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S1: give every single month at a level of their own choosing.

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S1: My way of saying thank you to the partial partners

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S1: is to make sure you get a copy of each

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S1: month's truth tool, and you get our weekly newsletter, which

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S1: includes some of my writing and an audio piece only

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S1: for my partial partners. So whether it's a one time

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S1: gift or you want to be an ongoing giver and

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S1: become a partial partner, that's your call. But I want

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S1: to thank you in advance. Eight seven, seven Janet 58.

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S1: Or online at In the Market with Janet Parshall. Now

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S1: please enjoy the broadcast.

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S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

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S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

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S4: Americans worshiping government over God.

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S5: Extremely rare safety move by a 17 years.

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S4: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.

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S1: Hi friends. Welcome to In the market with Janet Partial.

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S1: A very happy Thursday do you thank you so much

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S1: for joining us. You know, I don't know about you,

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S1: but I cannot believe that April 1st is right around

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S1: the corner. And that is no April Fool's joke. It's

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S1: going to happen quicker than you know it. So I

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S1: do want to encourage you again. If you do not

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S1: yet have a copy of Call to Take a bold

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S1: stand by pastor Jack Hibbs foreword written by Franklin Graham.

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S1: By the way, I really want to encourage you to

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S1: get a copy of this book. In this book, Pastor

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S1: Hibbs does a wonderful job of telling us how to

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S1: have a resilient and an effective faith in a godless age.

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S1: Is it easy? Absolutely not. Oh boy. The topics Craig

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S1: and I have chosen already for you. Tomorrow, when we

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S1: do our Friday, look at the news of the day

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S1: through the lens of Scripture, you're going to see how

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S1: many stories there are. I have more stories than Craig

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S1: and I have time to cover. And it is a

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S1: wicked and perverse culture that we are living in. I've

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S1: talked about this many times this week, and I've been

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S1: thinking about the fact Jesus talks about that in Matthew,

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S1: and Paul talks about it to the Philippian church, and

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S1: he's writing the book of Philippians, a wicked and perverse generation.

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S1: And yet, in the midst of all of that, both

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S1: Jesus and Paul give us the admonition to let our

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S1: light so shine that we need to be lights in

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S1: a dark world. So it's imperative that we understand that,

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S1: and we do exactly what we're called to do. So

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S1: Jack Hibbs in his book called to Take a Bold Stand,

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S1: reminds us how to have a resilient and effective faith

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S1: in a godless age. We are listener supported radio. It

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S1: is my way of saying thank you when you provide

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S1: a gift of any financial amount. So just call 877.

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S1: Janet 58 that's 877. Janet 58. Or go online to

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S1: in the market with Janet Parshall dot o r g

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S1: in the market with Janet dot o r g. Uh, again,

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S1: it's the listener supported program and today it's Thursday. That's

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S1: a big day because if you decide to become a

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S1: partial partner, those are people who give every single month

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S1: at a level of their own choosing. You always get

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S1: the truth tool. But in addition to that, you get

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S1: a weekly newsletter. And that weekly newsletter includes my writing

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S1: and an audio piece that's just from my partial partner.

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S1: So you decide. Either way, I thank you for your prayers.

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S1: I thank you for your financial support. It is what

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S1: keeps this program going. 877 Janet 58 or online at

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S1: in the market with Janet partial.org again on the website.

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S1: Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the book cover.

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S1: Click on. You can decide to be a partial partner

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S1: or to ask for a copy of the book. If

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S1: you forget the title, just say I want Jack Hibbs books,

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S1: and the people who take your call will be happy

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S1: to help you. Yours again for a gift of any amount.

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S1: So let's take a look at what's going on in

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S1: the Middle East, because that's not over by any stretch

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S1: of the imagination. And the president says that we, the

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S1: people here in the United States, are trying to negotiate

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S1: with Iran for a possible end to the war. Nobody

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S1: wants this to go on forever. And yet in the meantime,

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S1: this is Iran. And Syria has taught us this. Iran

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S1: talks out of both sides of their mouth. On the

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S1: one hand, they say, yes, we want to come to

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S1: the table, we want to negotiate. And yet their attacks

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S1: on the military infrastructure continue. And the president says the

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S1: Iranian leaders are desperate. And I believe he's right on

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S1: that perspective and said the president was quoted as saying

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S1: they want to make a deal so badly, but they're

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S1: afraid to say it because they figure they'll be killed

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S1: by their own people. They're also afraid that they'll be

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S1: killed by us. There's never been a head of a

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S1: country that wanted that job less. I think he's very

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S1: right on that. They don't last very long. So the

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S1: Wall Street Journal is reporting now that Iran has a

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S1: series of demands, and they are interesting and probably failed

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S1: right out of the gate. For example, one of the

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S1: demands is the immediate closure of all American bases in

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S1: the Persian Gulf and the Arabian Peninsula. That will never happen.

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S1: It's an unstable region. It's a volatile region, and we have, unfortunately,

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S1: needs for some of the natural resources that come from

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S1: that part of the world. So that's not going to happen.

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S1: Another demand is official and binding guarantees to avoid further attacks.

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S1: Says a regime that's continuing not only to attack on

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S1: the outside, but is engaged in the annihilation of its

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S1: own people. I'm sure that you read with me all

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S1: of the hangings that have been taking place of the

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S1: young people in particular, who went out and protested on

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S1: the streets. That's not going to stop by any stretch

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S1: of the imagination. It is because if they stop doing that,

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S1: they are desperately afraid. And I think this is exactly

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S1: what the president said, that if they don't continue the killing,

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S1: the Iranian people will rise up. The killing is the

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S1: only thing that taps them down and keeps them from

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S1: trying to without a government, without a government of their own,

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S1: yet in place, without a military, just with sheer passion

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S1: and a heart cry for freedom, they are unable in

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S1: and of themselves to unseat this regime. What the United

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S1: States and Israel and the countries that are helping are doing,

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S1: are trying to create an atmosphere in which the Iranian

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S1: people can themselves move forward to create their own regime change.

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S1: That's not something that Israel or the United States are

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S1: setting out to do in an overt kind of a fashion.

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S1: So the press secretary has asserted that despite Iranian TV

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S1: reports that the Iranian leaders are rejecting the president's plans,

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S1: talks are still ongoing and one would hope are productive.

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S1: So the number of military strikes is historic. Centcom Commander

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S1: Adam Brad Cooper indicates that the U.S. has struck more

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S1: than 8000 targets, including 130 Iranian vessels. That's the largest

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S1: elimination of a navy over a three week period since

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S1: World War Two. Iran announced that it has dropped more

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S1: than 15,000 bombs. Excuse me. That's 15,000 bombs over four

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S1: times the number in the last June 12th Day War. Iran, however,

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S1: continues to fire ballistic missiles at Israel with at least

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S1: three attacks in and around Jerusalem and more throughout the

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S1: country in the last 24 hours. So it very much continues.

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S1: Why am I bringing this to you? A it's a

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S1: part of what's happening in the world around us, and

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S1: you and I need to know it is part of

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S1: our transcultural missionary experience. It is what people are hearing.

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S1: It is what people are thinking about. It is what

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S1: is making. A lot of people feel fearful. They're confused.

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S1: They don't understand. You're hearing statements like, we don't have

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S1: any interest there. Why are we involved? Well, in fact,

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S1: we do have interest in that part of the world,

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S1: stability being one of them, resources being another. And I

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S1: think the transcendent desire to help a captive people get

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S1: set free. So I think we do have interest there.

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S1: But I also think it's imperative that we pray because

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S1: the Bible reminds us that God raises up kings and

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S1: he pulls down kings. And remember, when he's standing in

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S1: front of Pilate, he says, you don't have any authority,

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S1: but the authority I've given you. There isn't a leader

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S1: in the world who for right or for wrong, good

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S1: or for evil. God gives them a place in history

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S1: and a position of authority, but he can take that

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S1: away just as quickly as well. So I love what

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S1: our friend Doctor Sridhar says. We need to be praying

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S1: against what he calls the Prince of Persia, and he's

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S1: talking about the spiritual warfare that's taking place around Iran.

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S1: The idea that they have tried Islam, it's left them empty.

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S1: They moved to atheism. They found nothing but a hole

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S1: in their heart. So in the midst of all of

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S1: this unrest and turmoil, while so many in the leadership

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S1: of that regime mean it for evil, God might be

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S1: meaning this for good, that this creates a kind of

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S1: potential harvest of souls for people who might come to

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S1: know a peace that passes understanding by being introduced personally

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S1: to the Prince of Peace. So watch the news, read

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S1: the headlines, but don't stop there. Pray, pray, pray that

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S1: God will move in the nation of Iran, that if

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S1: there is to be a regime change, that God would

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S1: do it in a way that brings honor and glory

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S1: to him, and that he would be glorified and people

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S1: would come to know him as Lord and Savior back

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S1: after this. The Bible calls us to stand for his

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S1: truth that we are in Christ and that we have

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S1: a new nature because of him. So why don't we

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S1: live boldly? That's why I've chosen call to take a

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S1: bold stand by pastor Jack Hibbs as this month's truth tool.

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S1: Discover how to stand firmly in your faith and make

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S1: every moment count for him. As for your copy of

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S1: call to take a bold stand when you give a

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S1: gift of any amount to in the market, call 877.

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S1: Janet 58. That's 877. Janet 58. Or go to in

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S1: the market with Janet dot o r g o. Have

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S1: I been looking forward to this conversation? So put on

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S1: your thinking caps because we're going to think critically and

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S1: we're going to think biblically. First, I want to take

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S1: a little bit of time here to introduce our guests,

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S1: because I think he's an absolutely fascinating yes, yes, unbelievably gifted,

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S1: but a fascinating gentleman. Doctor Casey Luskin is back on

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S1: the air with us. He's a scientist and an attorney. Now,

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S1: either one of those two career paths could have taken

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S1: up your entire life. This gentleman pursues both. And I

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S1: want to flesh this out a little bit because, again,

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S1: I'm going to use the word fascinating. Scientists and attorney.

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S1: He's got grad degrees in science and law, so that

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S1: makes him an expert in both the scientific and the

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S1: legal dimensions of the debate over evolution. So let me

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S1: tell you what his curriculum vitae says. He's got a

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S1: PhD in geology from the University of Johannesburg, as in

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S1: South Africa, where he specialized in paleomagnetism and the early

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S1: plate tectonic history of South Africa. Not everybody does that,

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S1: by the way. That's pretty impressive. He's earned a law

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S1: degree from the University of San Diego. And guess what?

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S1: He focused on First Amendment law. Kind of special to

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S1: us on this program and education law and environmental law.

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S1: Not one three areas of expertise. His undergrad degrees are

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S1: in earth sciences from the University of California, San Diego,

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S1: where he studied evolution extensively at the graduate and undergrad

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S1: levels and conducted geological research at Scripps Institution of Oceanography.

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S1: He has been a California licensed attorney since 2005, and

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S1: he practices primarily. If you didn't know this area exists.

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S1: It does. And cases there. In the area of evolution,

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S1: education in public schools and defending academic freedom for scientists

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S1: who face discrimination because of their support for intelligent design.

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S1: So his role at the Discovery Institute, and that's where

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S1: he joins us from. He works as an associate director

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S1: of the center for Science and Culture, where he helps

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S1: direct ID 3.0 research program and assist and defend scientists, educators,

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S1: and students who seek to freely study, research, and teach

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S1: about the scientific debate over Darwinism and intelligent design. Now,

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S1: I don't usually read a bio in its entirety, but

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S1: I just want you to know that we have on

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S1: our side, ladies and gentlemen, people who are academically gifted,

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S1: who have all of the acumen necessary to engage intelligently

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S1: in this debates. We are not contrary to an initial

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S1: impression made by the Washington Post. Poor, uneducated and easy

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S1: to command. Far from it. And the credentials in this

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S1: particular case before the jury of our peers, has to

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S1: be that these are people who are learned, they've done

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S1: their homework, they understand the science and are peer reviewed,

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S1: multiple degreed, published and out there in the academic arenas.

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S1: I say that because this is not science for dummies, okay?

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S1: This is people who really and truly think this through.

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S1: And one of the reasons why I'm such an ardent

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S1: supporter of the Discovery Institute is because it really is

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S1: this panoply of thinkers, intellectuals, scientists, people who are in

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S1: the humanities. It's just this great group of people that

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S1: remind us that there is a strong intersection between faith

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S1: and public policy, faith and science, faith and critical thinking.

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S1: And Casey really is exemplary of that. Casey, I do

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S1: want to get into this challenge to Charles Darwin, but

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S1: I got to back up a little bit because you

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S1: are in many ways a Renaissance man. So the amalgamation

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S1: between science and law to me is I'll use the

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S1: word for the 19th time. Absolutely fascinating. What's your problem?

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S1: You couldn't pick a major or did you want to

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S1: see the two pulled together?

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S6: I did have that problem, Janet. And wow, you've really

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S6: talked me up so much. Now I hope I don't,

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S6: you know, defeat your expectations here. Uh, but but yeah,

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S6: I mean, I did have the problem of trying to

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S6: pick a major. I was one of those students where

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S6: I finally picked a major when they forced you to,

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S6: and you had so many credits that they said, hey,

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S6: if you don't pick a major, we're kicking you out.

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S6: So I chose Earth Sciences because that allowed me to

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S6: study chemistry, biology and physics and computer science all in

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S6: one major. And those are all things I enjoyed. So,

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S6: so yeah, it was one of those kind of guys.

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S1: Wow. But then the law, I mean, this is something

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S1: I know a little something about. And you decided to

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S1: have a focus on First Amendment. Explain that to me.

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S6: Well, yeah, I mean, I originally Janet, I went to

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S6: law school because I just thought I needed to get

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S6: a job. You know, I had this degree in earth sciences. Well,

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S6: what can you do with that? You can go dig

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S6: for oil in the desert. And I really didn't want

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S6: to do that at that stage of my 23 year

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S6: old life. So I decided to go to law school

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S6: to get a job. But as I, as I started

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S6: going to law school, I realized there are so many

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S6: important issues that intersect with the law. I originally I

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S6: wanted to do environmental law, which is a very important issue.

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S6: But beyond that, you know, things that pertain to our

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S6: worldviews and what students learn in the classroom. I began

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S6: to realize that the law really intersects with some very

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S6: important aspects of society. And so I specialized in First

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S6: Amendment law because I was really concerned about what students

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S6: are learning in public schools and how they were being

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S6: indoctrinating on the topic of evolution. So that sort of

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S6: led me down the path that I'm on today of

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S6: dealing with the teaching of evolution in public schools and

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S6: defending scientists. Yeah.

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S1: Wow. Wow. Now and again, I want to thank you

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S1: from the bottom of my heart for the gift of

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S1: the time that you're giving me. I get the opportunity

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S1: to ask a few follow up questions because of the

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S1: gift of your time, and I'm fully cognizant that I

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S1: can't replace it. So, Casey, that really does mean a

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S1: lot to me. So let me go back to something

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S1: in your journey, which is, I get it, you want

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S1: to put bread on the table. Law might be a

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S1: good way to do it, but somewhere along that part

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S1: of your Pilgrim's Progress, you had this aha phenomenon moment

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S1: where you realized that there really was a crush against

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S1: academic freedom, that you had to toe the line on

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S1: this particular area of scientific investigation, or you were going

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S1: to pay a price for it? Well, how did that

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S1: evidence start to manifest itself in your journey? When did

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S1: you begin to say, uh, oh, there's a pushback here?

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S6: Well, yeah, so it started for me actually, when I

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S6: was an undergraduate student at UC San Diego. UC San

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S6: Diego is one of the largest public universities for biology

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S6: research in the country. And I was taking all these

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S6: courses in evolution because that was just a topic that

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S6: interested me. I was fascinated with the study of our origins,

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S6: and I wanted to learn about it. And meanwhile, I

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S6: was in my own time, I was reading books by

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S6: people I know. You're going to recognize these names, Janet.

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S6: People like Phillip Johnson, Michael Behe, Jonathan Wells. And I

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S6: was realizing that there's this fascinating scientific debate going on

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S6: over our origins between proponents of intelligent design. Those are

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S6: all proponents of intelligent design for those who are not aware.

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S6: And then also about what I was learning about evolution

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S6: in my coursework at UC San Diego, and I realized

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S6: that there's really this fascinating debate going on between intelligent

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S6: design theorists and evolutionary scientists. But this debate was being

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S6: completely left out of all of my science classes. Really,

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S6: I would say professors were either just completely unaware of

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S6: this debate, or in some cases, they were sort of

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S6: deliberately censoring it from the students and not allowing us

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S6: to talk about this. So when I was an undergraduate

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S6: at UC San Diego, I started a student club to

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S6: help students to talk about this issue of where do

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S6: we come from, and is it the result of evolution

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S6: or intelligent design? We call this little club the idea club,

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S6: Intelligent design, evolution awareness. And that helped me then to

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S6: realize that we need a venue, a way for students

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S6: to learn about this. And that played into my desire

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S6: in law school to help students be exposed.

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S1: Wow. Casey, I have to tell you, that's an absolutely

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S1: brilliant story of understanding the intersection between the two and

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S1: really creating the opportunity for open dialogue and even to

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S1: the scientific side, scientific exploration of all ideas. Follow the

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S1: evidence where it leads. Doctor Casey Luskin is with us

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S1: for the rest of the hour. We're going to get

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S1: to Intelligent Design and a fellow by the name of

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S1: Charles Darwin in a minute. But more about Cassie's journey

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S1: when we return. We're visiting with Doctor Casey Luskin. He

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S1: is the associate director of the center for Science and

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S1: Culture at the Discovery Institute. And we're going to get

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S1: to Charles Darwin and the wager and its intersection with

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S1: Intelligent Design in a minute. Absolutely fascinating. But I just

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S1: want you to understand the lay of the land. These

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S1: are so there are so many people who hold a

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S1: worldview that says, wait a minute, I don't think the

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S1: evidence leads to where Darwinian posture of the origin of species.

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S1: I just I don't think the evidence leads to that end.

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S1: You could have a boatload of initials after your name.

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S1: And if you are at certain areas of, um, of

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S1: academic pursuit and my husband has represented these people in

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S1: case he knows this as well. They'll just shut you out.

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S1: They won't let you get published. You don't get tenure

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S1: at a university. It is the new modern witchhunt which raises.

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S1: Even though I peeled you as both a scientist and

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S1: an attorney. Casey, why the dreaded anathema of intelligent design

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S1: in what should be a pursuit for scientific substantiation based

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S1: on where the evidence leads. This is all theory. Why

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S1: would you completely hack one theory out and say, drink

386
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S1: the Kool aid? You must subscribe to this.

387
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S6: What you're asking, Janet, is a very important question. It's

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S6: also a complicated sociological question. In fact, the famous historian

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S6: of science, Thomas Kuhn, he found that historically, when a

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S6: new paradigm comes up to challenge a reigning paradigm, he

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S6: says that scientists are typically intolerant of these new ideas

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S6: that challenge the reigning paradigm within scientific fields. And this

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S6: is fairly, you know, not too hard to understand. Basically,

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S6: scientists invest their entire careers on particular ideas, particular paradigms

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S6: that sort of govern their fields. And so they're, they've

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S6: invested papers that they've published research, they've done instruments that

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S6: they've done their entire reputations upon these ideas. And so

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S6: when some new idea comes in to challenge those reigning paradigms,

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S6: it's often treated with some contempt. And this is exactly

400
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S6: what is going on with intelligent design and Darwinian evolution. Uh,

401
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S6: right now, neo Darwinian evolution, for better or for worse,

402
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S6: is the reigning paradigm within biology for how life arose

403
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S6: and and diversified to all the forms we see today.

404
00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:08,690
S6: Intelligent design is coming in and saying, actually, there are

405
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S6: other scientific ways to look at this question that are

406
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S6: not mechanistic, that are not naturalistic. We can actually use

407
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S6: our understanding of what intelligent agents can do to better

408
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S6: understand how we can explain the complexity of biology. And

409
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S6: so you have all these evolutionary scientists who say, no, no, no, no, no,

410
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S6: we've staked our careers on this evolutionary model. But then

411
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S6: with the whole ID evolution debate, you have this additional

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S6: component that worldviews are coming into play because we're getting

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S6: this very sort of personal, very emotional topic of where

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S6: do we come from and what does this mean? For

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S6: me personally, in my own worldview that I hold and

416
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S6: the way I live my life. So it's a lot

417
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S6: more than just typical sort of scientific sociology going on here.

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S6: You also have a lot of worldviews that are coming

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S6: into play. It's very difficult for people to accept new

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S6: ideas and be tolerant to them. So unfortunately, as you said, Janet,

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S6: we've seen a lot of intolerance and persecution of pro

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S6: ID scientists in academia. We tell many, many stories of this.

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S1: Yeah, true. And Casey, you are so deeply involved in this.

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S1: And I mean, it really is awful to know that

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S1: someone has worked arduously to advance their career scientifically and

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S1: academically and simply because of the worldview. And I'm so

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S1: thrilled that you used that word. We talk about that

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S1: all the time on this broadcast. It's about developing. We

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S1: try to develop through this program a biblio centric worldview,

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S1: but worldviews are not all accepted in the marketplace of ideas.

431
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S1: And so these scientists, these academicians, don't get their papers published.

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S1: They don't get tenure, granted simply because of a worldview

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S1: that they hold, which is egregious to me because it

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S1: really defies and denies, it seems to me the whole

435
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S1: idea of scientific pursuit as a lawyer, you understand that

436
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S1: Lady Justice is blindfolded. She holds above her head the

437
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S1: scales of justice, and the evidence tips the scale one

438
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S1: way or the other. There's a paradigm parallel here with science.

439
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S1: You are looking at where the evidence leads based on

440
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S1: the evidence as pursued through scientific investigation. What we're seeing

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00:22:01,869 --> 00:22:05,550
S1: in this blind allegiance to Darwinian ism is don't trouble

442
00:22:05,550 --> 00:22:07,870
S1: me with the facts. Don't mess with my mind and

443
00:22:07,869 --> 00:22:11,590
S1: what the evidence might be. I need this worldview concretized

444
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:15,030
S1: secured and never challenged because it will impact me in

445
00:22:15,030 --> 00:22:18,629
S1: all the ways you just brilliantly described. That means science

446
00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:20,950
S1: has taken a step backward, not forward, doesn't it?

447
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:24,710
S6: That's exactly right. Look, I personally am a big fan

448
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:26,600
S6: of science. I think science is a great tool that

449
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,080
S6: can help us to understand the world that we live in.

450
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,200
S6: But as you said, science is supposed to be sort

451
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,199
S6: of blind. It's supposed to be neutral. That's the great

452
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,359
S6: that's one of the great things about science. It's whatever

453
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,080
S6: their worldview, their personal religious views or non-religious views or

454
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,560
S6: whatever they are. The evidence is publicly available to everyone.

455
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,000
S6: We can all see the evidence and see what it's saying.

456
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:47,640
S6: And so science is supposed to be sort of this

457
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,160
S6: neutral arbiter of truth. But unfortunately, science is also an

458
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,000
S6: endeavor run by human beings. And human beings are not

459
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,040
S6: always perfectly objective robots. Uh, as much as we would

460
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,480
S6: like them to be, we just aren't. And so people

461
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,600
S6: get into political situations where, I mean, this is true

462
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,280
S6: in every field of science. And if you think that, yes,

463
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,280
S6: it's not true that I'm sort of a wake up call.

464
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,120
S6: Scientists are human beings, and they're very capable of engaging

465
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,600
S6: in politics and maneuvers to sort of marginalize certain ideas

466
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,080
S6: that they don't like. And we see this throughout scientific fields,

467
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,119
S6: even the fields that are totally non-ideological. Anybody who's a

468
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,440
S6: scientist listening to this right now knows what I'm saying

469
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,410
S6: is true. They've all experienced this. Science can be highly

470
00:23:25,410 --> 00:23:29,129
S6: political and unfortunately, sometimes views don't get the hearing they deserve.

471
00:23:29,170 --> 00:23:31,970
S6: The evidence is not weighed as it should be within

472
00:23:31,970 --> 00:23:34,050
S6: the scientific community. It's just just the way it is.

473
00:23:34,090 --> 00:23:36,730
S1: Absolutely. And if you don't mind, I love the richness

474
00:23:36,730 --> 00:23:38,609
S1: of this conversation. So let me dig a little bit

475
00:23:38,609 --> 00:23:41,169
S1: deeper because really, I want our friends to learn how

476
00:23:41,170 --> 00:23:43,490
S1: to think critically and biblically. So there's a continuum here

477
00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:45,570
S1: not to go on a rabbit trail, but to take

478
00:23:45,609 --> 00:23:48,650
S1: exactly the framework that you just identified. And I want

479
00:23:48,650 --> 00:23:50,210
S1: to pick it up and drop it over another section

480
00:23:50,210 --> 00:23:53,690
S1: of a current cultural debate that allegedly involves science, and

481
00:23:53,690 --> 00:23:56,090
S1: that is our inability nowadays to identify who is a

482
00:23:56,090 --> 00:24:00,770
S1: man and who is a woman based on scientific evidence x, x, x, y. Now,

483
00:24:00,770 --> 00:24:03,409
S1: because of the infusion, as you so rightly noted before,

484
00:24:03,450 --> 00:24:07,330
S1: of politics, of an agenda, of a particular worldview, I

485
00:24:07,330 --> 00:24:09,570
S1: don't bother me with the facts. My worldview needs to

486
00:24:09,570 --> 00:24:12,330
S1: be advanced at any cost, ever. Not only is that

487
00:24:12,330 --> 00:24:16,450
S1: bad science situational ethics, and it makes science step backwards

488
00:24:16,450 --> 00:24:19,449
S1: rather than step forward now. Oh, Casey, I could do

489
00:24:19,450 --> 00:24:20,770
S1: the rest of the hour on this with you. What

490
00:24:20,810 --> 00:24:23,170
S1: a wonderful conversation. But I'm going to go back to

491
00:24:23,260 --> 00:24:27,380
S1: Charles Darwin and a challenge that you at Discovery Institute

492
00:24:27,380 --> 00:24:30,899
S1: just put out, and some of the theories that old Mr.

493
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:33,580
S1: Darwin held and whether or not there is an intersection.

494
00:24:33,780 --> 00:24:36,020
S1: Did he stumble on one an intelligent design. We'll talk

495
00:24:36,020 --> 00:24:58,140
S1: about that when we return. Jesus told us to go

496
00:24:58,140 --> 00:25:00,020
S1: into the world and not run away from it, and

497
00:25:00,020 --> 00:25:01,780
S1: he didn't say it would be easy. In the market

498
00:25:01,780 --> 00:25:04,100
S1: with Janet, partial is a program designed to come alongside

499
00:25:04,100 --> 00:25:06,820
S1: and walk with you into the marketplace of ideas. Partial

500
00:25:06,820 --> 00:25:08,859
S1: partners are those friends who support our program on a

501
00:25:08,859 --> 00:25:11,780
S1: regular monthly basis. They know the mandate of influencing and

502
00:25:11,820 --> 00:25:14,380
S1: occupying until he comes. So why don't you become part

503
00:25:14,380 --> 00:25:18,100
S1: of the inner circle of support? Call 877 Janet 58

504
00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:21,389
S1: or go to in the market with Janet Parshall? Oh Gee,

505
00:25:22,270 --> 00:25:24,470
S1: what a treat and a joy to spend time with

506
00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:27,310
S1: Doctor Casey Luskin. He is the associate director of the

507
00:25:27,310 --> 00:25:30,910
S1: center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute. I

508
00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:32,990
S1: have links all over my info page so you can

509
00:25:32,990 --> 00:25:35,350
S1: learn more. If you don't know about the Discovery Institute

510
00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:38,510
S1: or you are missing something. Get to know these people.

511
00:25:38,510 --> 00:25:42,270
S1: Wonderful work that they do. They are influencing the culture

512
00:25:42,270 --> 00:25:45,390
S1: in such a profoundly important way. Casey, as I noted earlier,

513
00:25:45,390 --> 00:25:48,710
S1: is both a geologist and an attorney by training, and

514
00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:50,510
S1: that makes him a real expert when it comes to

515
00:25:50,550 --> 00:25:53,710
S1: this intersection between science and the legal dimensions of the

516
00:25:53,710 --> 00:25:56,710
S1: debate over evolution. So, Casey, you put a piece out

517
00:25:56,750 --> 00:26:00,070
S1: through discovery called well, actually, it showed up in Evolution

518
00:26:00,070 --> 00:26:03,870
S1: News where basically the title was most intriguing. Intelligent design

519
00:26:03,869 --> 00:26:08,470
S1: passes the Dawkins test now. Okay, so Richard Dawkins is

520
00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:13,150
S1: out there, uh, subscribing to the idea that he doesn't

521
00:26:13,150 --> 00:26:16,070
S1: believe in the concept of intelligent design and yet put

522
00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:18,750
S1: out a kind of wager in some respect. Now, for

523
00:26:18,750 --> 00:26:20,560
S1: those of us who do not have all of the

524
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,640
S1: initials after their name like you do. Move slowly through

525
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,280
S1: this one. So tell me, first of all, for people

526
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,040
S1: who don't know about Dawkins and the God delusion and

527
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,159
S1: his work, um, why did he decide that there would be.

528
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,440
S1: Why did you decide that a challenge had to be

529
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,080
S1: put before Dawkins on this particular subject of intelligent design?

530
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,439
S6: Sure. Janet. So I'm sure that many of our listeners

531
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,080
S6: have heard of Richard Dawkins. He's one of the world's

532
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,440
S6: most famous evolutionary biologists and also an outspoken and aggressive

533
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,120
S6: advocate for you mentioned his book, The God Delusion. It

534
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,800
S6: was very much a came out in 2006. It was

535
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,239
S6: a very aggressive book against belief in God, against the

536
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,160
S6: biblical God and all those things. So at Discovery Institute,

537
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,320
S6: we've been reviewing Dawkins's work for many years and also

538
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,640
S6: keeping up with the scientific literature. And we recently discovered

539
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,520
S6: that he has put out a very clear test for

540
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,239
S6: determining whether evolution or intelligent design is true. And we

541
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,280
S6: were talking earlier about science, how you're supposed to be

542
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,290
S6: able to, you know, weigh the evidence objectively? Well. How

543
00:27:21,290 --> 00:27:23,850
S6: I just do that? Well, typically, when scientists will weigh

544
00:27:23,850 --> 00:27:26,330
S6: the evidence, they will make. See, if a theory is

545
00:27:26,330 --> 00:27:29,810
S6: making predictions that you can test. And Dawkins is actually

546
00:27:29,810 --> 00:27:33,330
S6: laid out a clear prediction for evolution and also a

547
00:27:33,330 --> 00:27:37,050
S6: clear prediction for intelligent design. But the problem for Dawkins

548
00:27:37,050 --> 00:27:39,450
S6: is it turns out that the prediction did not go.

549
00:27:39,890 --> 00:27:42,730
S6: I believe, as he expected, as he as he expected.

550
00:27:42,730 --> 00:27:45,970
S6: And the data actually fulfills a clear prediction that he

551
00:27:45,970 --> 00:27:49,050
S6: laid out for intelligent design rather than the prediction he

552
00:27:49,050 --> 00:27:51,970
S6: laid out for evolution. So the test that he laid

553
00:27:51,970 --> 00:27:54,850
S6: out is like this. He said that if Darwinian evolution

554
00:27:54,850 --> 00:27:58,570
S6: is correct, then every gene in a group of organisms

555
00:27:58,570 --> 00:28:02,649
S6: in their DNA will give approximately the same tree of life. Okay.

556
00:28:02,690 --> 00:28:05,570
S6: When you see those evolutionary trees in textbooks or on,

557
00:28:05,609 --> 00:28:09,130
S6: you know, PBS Nova documentaries that show how different organisms

558
00:28:09,130 --> 00:28:11,330
S6: are related, what they do is they will sequence the

559
00:28:11,330 --> 00:28:14,810
S6: genes of organisms and compare those genes and based upon

560
00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:18,020
S6: which organisms have more similar genes, they will group them

561
00:28:18,020 --> 00:28:20,780
S6: closer or more further apart on those trees. So what

562
00:28:20,820 --> 00:28:23,340
S6: Dawkins said is that every gene in a group of

563
00:28:23,340 --> 00:28:26,500
S6: organisms will give you approximately the same tree of life,

564
00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:30,340
S6: or even the perfect congruency between different trees of life.

565
00:28:30,740 --> 00:28:33,060
S6: But if ID is correct, on the other hand, he

566
00:28:33,060 --> 00:28:35,500
S6: said that the designer could have picked and chosen the

567
00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:38,740
S6: best proteins for each job in each organism, and in

568
00:28:38,780 --> 00:28:40,980
S6: that case, he says that the genes would not all

569
00:28:40,980 --> 00:28:43,020
S6: give you the same tree of life. You would not

570
00:28:43,020 --> 00:28:45,820
S6: get consistency. When you look at one gene, it might

571
00:28:45,820 --> 00:28:48,100
S6: give you a different tree of life rather than each

572
00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:50,420
S6: gene giving you the same tree of life. So it's

573
00:28:50,420 --> 00:28:53,700
S6: a simple test that Dawkins has set up two competing

574
00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:57,300
S6: predictions for evolution, one for intelligent design. And he says

575
00:28:57,300 --> 00:29:01,860
S6: that evolution predicts perfect congruency among different representations of the

576
00:29:01,860 --> 00:29:04,700
S6: tree of life. And he says this evidence is so powerful,

577
00:29:04,700 --> 00:29:08,420
S6: his words that it proves evolution is true. On the

578
00:29:08,420 --> 00:29:11,380
S6: other hand, he gives sort of conflicts between these different

579
00:29:11,380 --> 00:29:14,380
S6: trees of life based upon different genes as the prediction

580
00:29:14,380 --> 00:29:17,390
S6: of intelligent design, or what he actually calls the alternative

581
00:29:17,390 --> 00:29:19,950
S6: to evolution. So this is sort of the test that

582
00:29:19,950 --> 00:29:21,430
S6: Dawkins has laid out for us.

583
00:29:22,270 --> 00:29:24,510
S1: So you write about this in your article. You say

584
00:29:24,510 --> 00:29:27,310
S1: that in his 2009 book, The Greatest Show on Earth

585
00:29:27,310 --> 00:29:30,590
S1: The Evidence for Evolution. This is really where he said

586
00:29:30,590 --> 00:29:34,430
S1: he has he. From his perspective, this is extremely powerful

587
00:29:34,430 --> 00:29:37,950
S1: evidence for evolution. But as you point out, he comes

588
00:29:37,950 --> 00:29:39,910
S1: up with a kind of conflicted result here. Talk to

589
00:29:39,910 --> 00:29:40,710
S1: me about this.

590
00:29:41,470 --> 00:29:44,350
S6: So yeah, so I don't know if Dawkins actually acknowledges

591
00:29:44,350 --> 00:29:47,350
S6: what the data really says, but Dawkins says basically that

592
00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:50,950
S6: if intelligent design is correct, then different genes should give

593
00:29:50,950 --> 00:29:52,830
S6: you different versions of the tree of life. And if

594
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:55,550
S6: evolution is correct, then essentially every gene should give you

595
00:29:55,550 --> 00:29:58,350
S6: the same version of life. Well, anybody who has studied

596
00:29:58,350 --> 00:30:01,830
S6: the field of evolutionary systematics, which is the field that

597
00:30:01,830 --> 00:30:05,390
S6: basically constructs these evolutionary trees, or as they're often called,

598
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:09,750
S6: phylogenetic trees, everybody who works in this field knows that

599
00:30:09,990 --> 00:30:15,520
S6: conflicts between different trees is very, very common. And then

600
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,680
S6: in fact, one gene will give you one version of

601
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,880
S6: the tree of life, and another gene will give you

602
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,520
S6: a very different or conflicting version of the tree of life.

603
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,360
S6: And we actually dug up some very recent scientific papers to,

604
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,760
S6: to document this. So here's a paper in a book

605
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,320
S6: titled phylogenetics in the Genomic era, it says conflicting phylogenetic

606
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,600
S6: signals between genes is commonplace. Or a paper in proceedings

607
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,920
S6: of the National Academy of Sciences, USA says an immediate

608
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,720
S6: challenge is to address pervasive conflict observed in whole genome data,

609
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,080
S6: or phylogenetic conflict where genes disagree about the tree of

610
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,680
S6: life is common across genomes and throughout the tree of life.

611
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,000
S6: So this is all, you know, statements coming from the

612
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,920
S6: mainstream scientific literature. And basically what's happening is you are

613
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:06,000
S6: not getting consistency among the genetic code of different organisms

614
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,120
S6: that fits what we would expect if common ancestry is true.

615
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,810
S6: The idea that all living organisms is related. Essentially, we're

616
00:31:13,810 --> 00:31:17,890
S6: finding that there are conflicts between different trees because there

617
00:31:17,890 --> 00:31:20,450
S6: are similarities and differences popping up in the genomes of

618
00:31:20,450 --> 00:31:24,090
S6: organisms that is not being predicted by this idea of

619
00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:28,570
S6: common ancestry. So basically, Dawkins's prediction for evolution has failed.

620
00:31:28,770 --> 00:31:32,330
S6: And instead that he gave for intelligent design has turned

621
00:31:32,330 --> 00:31:33,330
S6: out to be correct.

622
00:31:33,530 --> 00:31:36,170
S1: Wow. Okay, so much to unpack. Now, again, this is

623
00:31:36,170 --> 00:31:38,370
S1: this is talking to me. Science for dummies. Let me

624
00:31:38,370 --> 00:31:40,090
S1: see if I can break this down. I thought one

625
00:31:40,090 --> 00:31:43,850
S1: of the hallmarks of Darwinism was randomness. So if you're

626
00:31:43,850 --> 00:31:45,530
S1: going to look and I want you to break down

627
00:31:45,530 --> 00:31:47,290
S1: the tree of life and just put skin on that,

628
00:31:47,290 --> 00:31:49,969
S1: show me what that would look like as something I

629
00:31:49,970 --> 00:31:52,130
S1: could see with my eyes. In other words, rather than

630
00:31:52,170 --> 00:31:57,250
S1: going into the atmospherics of genomes and DNA patterns, etc.

631
00:31:57,290 --> 00:32:00,050
S1: tell me what that would look like if Darwinism was right.

632
00:32:00,050 --> 00:32:03,730
S1: If Dawkins's idea is that you would see this replicated pattern,

633
00:32:03,730 --> 00:32:06,370
S1: as opposed to an intelligent designer who picks and chooses

634
00:32:06,370 --> 00:32:09,570
S1: the proteins that comes out with a different outcome. Where's

635
00:32:09,570 --> 00:32:11,540
S1: randomness in that for first off.

636
00:32:11,940 --> 00:32:14,580
S6: Well, maybe Janet, we could back up a little bit

637
00:32:14,580 --> 00:32:17,980
S6: and I could explain how these evolutionary trees are constructed.

638
00:32:17,980 --> 00:32:20,940
S6: And that might help to understand why this prediction is

639
00:32:20,940 --> 00:32:24,260
S6: so important for evolution, why it doesn't work. So when

640
00:32:24,260 --> 00:32:27,740
S6: you see these evolutionary trees in textbooks or scientific papers,

641
00:32:27,740 --> 00:32:31,020
S6: or as I said, PBS Nova documentaries, they can be

642
00:32:31,020 --> 00:32:33,700
S6: instructed in one of two ways. You can compare the

643
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:36,380
S6: body structure of an organism, you know, its skeletal traits

644
00:32:36,380 --> 00:32:38,540
S6: or the organs that it has, or, or some of

645
00:32:38,540 --> 00:32:41,220
S6: the abilities that it has. Can it use echolocation to

646
00:32:41,260 --> 00:32:44,060
S6: find food? Does it have two eyes or, or six eyes?

647
00:32:44,060 --> 00:32:45,940
S6: How many legs does it have? You can use the

648
00:32:45,940 --> 00:32:48,900
S6: body structures of an organisms or. The second way you

649
00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:52,300
S6: can build these trees is you can compare gene sequences. Essentially,

650
00:32:52,340 --> 00:32:55,700
S6: we're talking about the sequence of nucleotide bases in the

651
00:32:55,700 --> 00:33:00,140
S6: DNA or the sequences of amino acids in proteins, and

652
00:33:00,140 --> 00:33:04,220
S6: those organisms with more similar gene seeds are said to

653
00:33:04,220 --> 00:33:07,420
S6: be more closely related. Now the problem is, is that

654
00:33:07,420 --> 00:33:10,150
S6: genes don't always give you the same tree. In other words,

655
00:33:10,150 --> 00:33:13,670
S6: you get similarities between organisms that are not predicted if

656
00:33:13,670 --> 00:33:15,830
S6: they all shared a common ancestor. Let me give you

657
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:17,830
S6: a hypothetical example that I think will explain this.

658
00:33:17,870 --> 00:33:18,910
S1: Okay, good.

659
00:33:18,950 --> 00:33:21,830
S6: Let's say that you, your sister and your next door

660
00:33:21,830 --> 00:33:26,390
S6: neighbor all did that 23 and me chromosome test. Okay.

661
00:33:26,430 --> 00:33:28,310
S6: I'm sure we've all heard of that. And you get

662
00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:31,190
S6: back the sequences of your genes. So you look at

663
00:33:31,190 --> 00:33:33,989
S6: one gene, let's say it's the gene for cytochrome c

664
00:33:34,030 --> 00:33:37,150
S6: a very important bodies. And this gene tells you exactly

665
00:33:37,150 --> 00:33:39,710
S6: what you and your sister and your next door neighbor

666
00:33:39,710 --> 00:33:43,030
S6: might expect. Essentially what the what the 23 Andme test

667
00:33:43,030 --> 00:33:46,670
S6: shows is that your gene sequence is more similar to

668
00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:49,470
S6: that of your sister than it is between you and

669
00:33:49,470 --> 00:33:51,870
S6: your next door neighbor, right? Because you're more closely related

670
00:33:51,870 --> 00:33:54,070
S6: to your sister. So you would expect that your gene

671
00:33:54,070 --> 00:33:56,750
S6: sequence is going to be more similar between you and

672
00:33:56,750 --> 00:33:59,230
S6: her than between you and your next door neighbor, who

673
00:33:59,270 --> 00:34:02,190
S6: you're probably related to. If you go very far back,

674
00:34:02,190 --> 00:34:04,590
S6: but you're not really closely related to your next door neighbor.

675
00:34:04,950 --> 00:34:07,709
S6: So let's say you take another gene sequence. This is

676
00:34:07,710 --> 00:34:10,009
S6: for another gene in our body. It's called beta globin.

677
00:34:10,370 --> 00:34:14,010
S6: And this gene shows something you didn't expect this time.

678
00:34:14,010 --> 00:34:17,250
S6: Your gene sequence is much more similar to your next

679
00:34:17,250 --> 00:34:20,210
S6: door neighbor's gene sequence than it is to your sister's.

680
00:34:20,450 --> 00:34:22,650
S6: So even though you're supposed to be much more closely

681
00:34:22,650 --> 00:34:25,089
S6: related to your sister than you are to your next

682
00:34:25,090 --> 00:34:28,049
S6: door neighbor, somehow when you look at this gene, it

683
00:34:28,050 --> 00:34:30,489
S6: makes it look like you are more closely related to

684
00:34:30,489 --> 00:34:33,009
S6: your next door neighbor than to your sister. So I'm

685
00:34:33,010 --> 00:34:35,730
S6: making this up. But now let's say, let's talk about

686
00:34:35,730 --> 00:34:39,570
S6: real world data. Now imagine that you have used scientific

687
00:34:39,610 --> 00:34:44,770
S6: tools to sequence hundreds, if not thousands of genes across

688
00:34:44,770 --> 00:34:48,049
S6: many different species of organisms. And you've now done a

689
00:34:48,050 --> 00:34:51,210
S6: similar kind of analysis on the macro scale. And according

690
00:34:51,250 --> 00:34:56,330
S6: to Darwinism, all of those species are related through common ancestry. Okay.

691
00:34:56,610 --> 00:34:58,650
S6: What you see is over and over is that one

692
00:34:58,650 --> 00:35:02,650
S6: gene gives you one version of the relationships between those organisms,

693
00:35:02,650 --> 00:35:05,050
S6: one version of the tree of life and a different

694
00:35:05,050 --> 00:35:08,300
S6: gene gives you a very different or conflicting versions of

695
00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:10,739
S6: how those organisms are related or, you know, the tree

696
00:35:10,739 --> 00:35:13,940
S6: of life. Again, this is exactly what Dawkins says evolution

697
00:35:13,940 --> 00:35:18,020
S6: does not predict, but it's what intelligent design does predict.

698
00:35:18,020 --> 00:35:19,899
S6: And yet this is what we find. We find that

699
00:35:19,940 --> 00:35:22,739
S6: we that organisms, when you sequence their genes and you

700
00:35:22,739 --> 00:35:26,379
S6: try to organize, organize them into an evolutionary tree, it

701
00:35:26,380 --> 00:35:29,419
S6: does not fit with a nice neat evolutionary tree. It's

702
00:35:29,420 --> 00:35:31,580
S6: kind of like you might call it a mess. Okay.

703
00:35:31,780 --> 00:35:34,899
S6: Now you mentioned randomness. Well, it's true that mutations in

704
00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:38,140
S6: evolution are random, but what is not random are the

705
00:35:38,140 --> 00:35:42,660
S6: lines event. Okay, every organism is supposedly related according to

706
00:35:42,700 --> 00:35:47,100
S6: evolution through a line of descent tracing back to a

707
00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:50,219
S6: common ancestor. And there's only one way that all of

708
00:35:50,219 --> 00:35:52,899
S6: these different organisms are related. If you go back, you know,

709
00:35:52,940 --> 00:35:55,540
S6: you're supposedly related not just to every human on earth,

710
00:35:55,540 --> 00:35:58,060
S6: but also to your pet dog or cat. Also to

711
00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:00,460
S6: the birds in the trees and the fungus that are

712
00:36:00,460 --> 00:36:02,540
S6: growing on the bottom of your foot. And the tree

713
00:36:02,540 --> 00:36:05,390
S6: of life unfolded in only one way. So you should

714
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:07,069
S6: be able to see that tree of life when we

715
00:36:07,070 --> 00:36:09,790
S6: sequenced genes. And there should be a consistent tree. And

716
00:36:09,790 --> 00:36:13,430
S6: we get total inconsistency. When you look at different genes

717
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:15,109
S6: and the way they're sequenced and the way they paint

718
00:36:15,110 --> 00:36:17,149
S6: a picture of this tree of life, it's not what

719
00:36:17,150 --> 00:36:18,830
S6: Darwinian evolution predicts.

720
00:36:19,390 --> 00:36:22,670
S1: Casey, that was a brilliant way to understand that distinctiveness.

721
00:36:22,670 --> 00:36:24,069
S1: So when we come back, I want to talk more

722
00:36:24,070 --> 00:36:27,670
S1: about Dawkins. Now, remember when we talked quickly about his biography?

723
00:36:27,710 --> 00:36:30,830
S1: Remember he wrote this book that rocked the globe was

724
00:36:30,830 --> 00:36:34,109
S1: a bestseller called The God Delusion. Now, here's where I

725
00:36:34,110 --> 00:36:37,230
S1: also find a parallel between Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins.

726
00:36:37,230 --> 00:36:40,150
S1: We'll talk about that with Doctor Casey Luskin right after this.

727
00:36:59,350 --> 00:37:01,950
S1: Are you living with a biblically based, passionate faith, or

728
00:37:01,950 --> 00:37:04,600
S1: are you pulling back from letting your light shine. That's

729
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,719
S1: why I've chosen coal to take a bold stand. As

730
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,320
S1: this month's truth tool. Learn how to influence the culture

731
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,000
S1: for Christ in a transformative way. As for your copy

732
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:13,839
S1: of call to take a bold stand when you give

733
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,720
S1: a gift of any amount to in the market, call 877.

734
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,319
S1: Janet 58. That's 877. Janet 58. Or go to in

735
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,160
S1: the market with Janet dot o r g. Fascinating conversation

736
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,080
S1: with doctor Casey Luskin, who's the associate director of the

737
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,920
S1: center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute. By

738
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,560
S1: the way, I've got a link to this article so

739
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,319
S1: that you can read it in its entirety on our

740
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,600
S1: information page, and I want you to check that out.

741
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,120
S1: So we were talking before about his seminal book, The

742
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,000
S1: God Delusion, which caused people around the globe to literally

743
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,440
S1: start talking. But just like Darwin set out to really

744
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,960
S1: disprove God, and he makes this clear, I think, more

745
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,400
S1: in the descent of man than the origin of species.

746
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,480
S1: But I find it interesting that Dawkins likewise has a

747
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,879
S1: marked animus against God in talking about this idea of

748
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,920
S1: the tree of Life, he says, and you wrote about

749
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,960
S1: this in your article in two interviews. He did 1

750
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,090
S1: in 2009 and 1 in 2010. The only alternative to

751
00:38:06,130 --> 00:38:08,530
S1: it being a family tree is that the intelligent designer

752
00:38:08,530 --> 00:38:11,450
S1: deliberately set out to deceive us in the most underhanded

753
00:38:11,450 --> 00:38:14,969
S1: and devious manner. HMM. An anthropological argument to a God

754
00:38:14,969 --> 00:38:17,730
S1: he doesn't believe in. Then, in 2010, he says, the

755
00:38:17,730 --> 00:38:19,489
S1: only way you could get out of saying that that

756
00:38:19,489 --> 00:38:21,730
S1: proves that evolution is true is by saying that the

757
00:38:21,730 --> 00:38:25,850
S1: intelligent designer God here A identifies him deliberately set out

758
00:38:25,850 --> 00:38:30,090
S1: to lie to us, deliberately set out to deceive us. Okay,

759
00:38:31,010 --> 00:38:33,130
S1: he thinks he doth protest too much. So his animus

760
00:38:33,130 --> 00:38:35,169
S1: toward a God he allegedly doesn't believe in, I find

761
00:38:35,170 --> 00:38:38,969
S1: to be very interesting. But more importantly, he's subscribing motive. Now,

762
00:38:38,969 --> 00:38:41,890
S1: this is where worldview comes in, not scientific deliberation. Talk

763
00:38:41,890 --> 00:38:42,810
S1: to me about this.

764
00:38:45,250 --> 00:38:50,250
S6: Yeah, I mean, absolutely, Janet. Richard Dawkins has his own worldview. Um,

765
00:38:50,290 --> 00:38:52,570
S6: in that delusion, he called the God of the Bible

766
00:38:52,610 --> 00:38:57,610
S6: a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak. A vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser,

767
00:38:57,850 --> 00:39:07,460
S6: a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, Infanticidal, genocidal, filicide, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious,

768
00:39:07,580 --> 00:39:10,259
S6: malevolent bully. I can't even say it. I mean, it's

769
00:39:10,260 --> 00:39:14,060
S6: just so, so clearly. Dawkins has his own views about God.

770
00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:16,339
S6: And if you think that that does not affect, you know,

771
00:39:16,380 --> 00:39:18,980
S6: the way that he approaches science, well, I'm sorry, he's

772
00:39:18,980 --> 00:39:21,740
S6: a human being. I'm not. This is nothing to single

773
00:39:21,739 --> 00:39:24,899
S6: out for special criticism. All of us have our own

774
00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:28,340
S6: worldviews that color the way that we interpret things. And

775
00:39:28,340 --> 00:39:31,580
S6: Dawkins is certainly not alone in having a worldview, but

776
00:39:31,580 --> 00:39:34,020
S6: he has a worldview, and we should understand that it's

777
00:39:34,020 --> 00:39:37,500
S6: a pretty strong worldview. So, I mean, I'm look, I'm not, again,

778
00:39:37,540 --> 00:39:40,020
S6: singling out Dawkins here for special criticism. It's just more

779
00:39:40,020 --> 00:39:42,980
S6: to make the broader point that scientists are human beings

780
00:39:43,180 --> 00:39:46,300
S6: and that these things come into play when people interpret

781
00:39:46,300 --> 00:39:49,460
S6: this data. Um, and so Richard Dawkins, I don't think

782
00:39:49,460 --> 00:39:53,219
S6: that he has ever acknowledged, to my knowledge, that his

783
00:39:53,219 --> 00:39:56,779
S6: prediction for evolution and intelligent design that we're talking about

784
00:39:56,780 --> 00:39:59,989
S6: here today, that, you know, these evolutionary trees are conflicting.

785
00:40:00,070 --> 00:40:02,830
S6: I don't know if he's ever actually acknowledged that his

786
00:40:02,830 --> 00:40:05,830
S6: prediction for evolution failed. I certainly hope he would, because

787
00:40:05,830 --> 00:40:07,910
S6: I think that a scientist should acknowledge what the data

788
00:40:07,910 --> 00:40:10,830
S6: really says. Um, but I don't know if will his

789
00:40:10,830 --> 00:40:13,149
S6: worldview let him do that? I hope it does. But really,

790
00:40:13,150 --> 00:40:14,230
S6: that's not for me to say.

791
00:40:14,910 --> 00:40:17,030
S1: Well, you took me exactly where I wanted to go, Casey.

792
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:18,830
S1: Which is okay now he's been, in the words of

793
00:40:18,830 --> 00:40:21,910
S1: the great bard, hoisted on his own petard. So the

794
00:40:21,910 --> 00:40:25,430
S1: evidence doesn't support his declaration. So now he he either

795
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:28,390
S1: has to pretend he never made it. And unfortunately, or fortunately,

796
00:40:28,390 --> 00:40:31,029
S1: in the world in which we live, everything is out

797
00:40:31,030 --> 00:40:33,070
S1: there on the internet. And once it's there, it doesn't

798
00:40:33,070 --> 00:40:35,590
S1: have a shelf life. There's no carbon dating. It's there forevermore.

799
00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:38,629
S1: So he cannot deny that he made this observation, that

800
00:40:38,630 --> 00:40:40,910
S1: he posited this challenge and the challenge didn't come back

801
00:40:40,910 --> 00:40:43,149
S1: the way he wanted it to. So, to the best

802
00:40:43,150 --> 00:40:45,069
S1: of your knowledge, in reading his papers and doing his

803
00:40:45,070 --> 00:40:47,750
S1: research as he merely sidestepped the outcome.

804
00:40:49,469 --> 00:40:52,310
S6: I mean, I have never seen Dawkins circle back around

805
00:40:52,310 --> 00:40:54,310
S6: to this particular topic. We were hoping that he might

806
00:40:54,310 --> 00:40:57,390
S6: respond to my article, which. Thank you for linking to that.

807
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,720
S6: It's titled, uh, Intelligent Design passes the Dawkins test because

808
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:03,680
S6: we think it does. And we asked Richard Dawkins at

809
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,400
S6: the end, you know, well, how are you going to

810
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,719
S6: respond to this? Will you admit that your prediction has

811
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,759
S6: failed for evolution but succeeded for intelligent design? Or will

812
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,680
S6: you say that maybe this prediction was not a good

813
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,120
S6: way of testing between evolution and ID, I don't know.

814
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,160
S6: We were hoping that he would respond. He has not

815
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,480
S6: responded yet. I mean, Dawkins is now I think he's

816
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,480
S6: in his, uh, early 80s, possibly like around 82 years

817
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,160
S6: old or so. So I'm not sure if he's engaged

818
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,399
S6: with the science. And this is really a, an issue

819
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,160
S6: that we've seen in the last 10 or 15 years

820
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,560
S6: where we're finding all these, these evolutionary trees that are

821
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,320
S6: conflicting with each other. Um, I'm not sure how closely

822
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,920
S6: Dawkins follows the literature, but as you said, it was

823
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,759
S6: 2009 that he wrote his book, The Greatest Show on Earth,

824
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,320
S6: and that book was supposed to lay out the best

825
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,960
S6: evidence for evolution that Dawkins knew about. And that was

826
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,359
S6: part of the place where he laid out this test. So, yeah,

827
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,400
S6: I don't know what Dawkins is going to say, Janet.

828
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:54,759
S6: All I can say is that this is what the

829
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,569
S6: evidence says and the evidence fulfills Dawkins prediction for intelligent design.

830
00:41:59,610 --> 00:42:02,489
S1: Wow. So just as a sidebar story, because I have

831
00:42:02,489 --> 00:42:05,410
S1: the luxury of picking your well-educated brains for a minute,

832
00:42:05,450 --> 00:42:07,490
S1: Stephen Gould doesn't call it a tree of life anymore.

833
00:42:07,489 --> 00:42:09,690
S1: He's referring to it as a bush. Is that an

834
00:42:09,690 --> 00:42:12,090
S1: internal debate in the camp of the evolutionists?

835
00:42:13,010 --> 00:42:15,009
S6: Yeah. So? So Stephen Jay Gould passed away a number

836
00:42:15,010 --> 00:42:17,930
S6: of years ago, but certainly many scientists, and I think

837
00:42:17,930 --> 00:42:20,410
S6: Gould would have been one of them would have recognized

838
00:42:20,410 --> 00:42:23,009
S6: that we don't have this nice, neat tree of life.

839
00:42:23,050 --> 00:42:25,410
S6: You've heard we've heard people call it the Bush of life,

840
00:42:25,410 --> 00:42:28,010
S6: or the network of life, or the tangled thicket of life.

841
00:42:28,450 --> 00:42:30,450
S6: I don't have the ability to put a picture up

842
00:42:30,450 --> 00:42:32,890
S6: on a on a radio show, audio show, but you

843
00:42:32,930 --> 00:42:35,370
S6: can see some of the diagrams in scientific papers, and

844
00:42:35,370 --> 00:42:37,450
S6: they don't look like a tree. They look like a

845
00:42:37,450 --> 00:42:41,169
S6: tangled thicket. And what this means, basically, is that similarity

846
00:42:41,170 --> 00:42:45,170
S6: is popping up between living organisms and places that it

847
00:42:45,170 --> 00:42:48,490
S6: was not predicted by common ancestry. I mean, that's exactly

848
00:42:48,489 --> 00:42:51,570
S6: what it means. So this idea that you can explain

849
00:42:51,610 --> 00:42:55,620
S6: the distribution of traits and genes and body parts between

850
00:42:55,620 --> 00:42:59,580
S6: different organisms by appealing to their common ancestry. I think

851
00:42:59,580 --> 00:43:02,620
S6: that a very large percentage of scientists today recognize that

852
00:43:02,620 --> 00:43:05,020
S6: you can't do that. Okay. The common ancestry is not

853
00:43:05,020 --> 00:43:07,379
S6: explaining the data very well. Now they have lots of

854
00:43:07,380 --> 00:43:10,780
S6: other ways of trying to explain away the data without

855
00:43:10,780 --> 00:43:14,779
S6: losing common ancestry. Um, we call these epicycles like in

856
00:43:14,780 --> 00:43:17,380
S6: the geocentric model of the solar system. You would appeal

857
00:43:17,380 --> 00:43:20,380
S6: to these epicycles to explain why, you know, you could

858
00:43:20,380 --> 00:43:22,339
S6: still keep the earth at the center of the solar system.

859
00:43:22,340 --> 00:43:25,180
S6: But I think what this shows is that common ancestry

860
00:43:25,219 --> 00:43:28,299
S6: and Darwinian evolution are a theory in crisis, and we

861
00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:30,420
S6: ought to be seriously questioning whether or not they're the

862
00:43:30,420 --> 00:43:33,180
S6: best explanations for biology that we have today.

863
00:43:33,380 --> 00:43:35,580
S1: Wow, what a brilliant answer. One last question, and it

864
00:43:35,580 --> 00:43:38,260
S1: takes us full circle. How do you encourage your fellow

865
00:43:38,260 --> 00:43:42,739
S1: academicians who subscribe to an intelligent design worldview? On the

866
00:43:42,739 --> 00:43:45,860
S1: origin of species, knowing it might cost them their job

867
00:43:45,860 --> 00:43:48,379
S1: to mitigate the Heckler's veto? What do you tell them

868
00:43:48,380 --> 00:43:48,820
S1: to do?

869
00:43:49,620 --> 00:43:52,580
S6: Well, in a couple seconds, keep in touch with Discovery Institute.

870
00:43:52,580 --> 00:43:56,469
S6: You can go to discovery.org or evolution news.org. And if

871
00:43:56,469 --> 00:43:58,350
S6: you do find yourself in trouble, reach out to us.

872
00:43:58,350 --> 00:44:02,910
S6: We've helped many scientists to overcome and face these discrimination cases,

873
00:44:03,070 --> 00:44:04,549
S6: and there's a lot of great people who have been

874
00:44:04,550 --> 00:44:07,110
S6: through this. You're not alone. Know that you're not crazy

875
00:44:07,110 --> 00:44:09,149
S6: if you think that people are discriminating against you. It's

876
00:44:09,150 --> 00:44:11,670
S6: happened many times. You're among good company. Reach out to us.

877
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:12,750
S6: We'd be happy to help you.

878
00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:15,750
S1: And I'm telling you, Casey is an absolute treasure in

879
00:44:15,750 --> 00:44:19,830
S1: this particular area. Academic freedom. Right? The ability to investigate

880
00:44:19,830 --> 00:44:22,549
S1: and see where the evidence leads. Casey also said that

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00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:24,790
S1: I do have a link to his article, Intelligent Design

882
00:44:24,790 --> 00:44:28,430
S1: Passes the Dawkins Test. It's right there on our information page.

883
00:44:28,430 --> 00:44:30,430
S1: Read it and then pass it on to a friend

884
00:44:30,469 --> 00:44:32,350
S1: who subscribes to the idea of the Tree of life

885
00:44:32,350 --> 00:44:35,790
S1: and the evolutionist idea, and just talk about how, in fact,

886
00:44:35,830 --> 00:44:38,469
S1: the evidence doesn't necessarily point that way and get to

887
00:44:38,510 --> 00:44:43,750
S1: know the Discovery Institute, these brilliant learned people winsomely entering

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00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:45,910
S1: into the halls of academia, and I think leaving a

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00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:49,390
S1: profound impact. Thank you to Doctor Casey Luskin and you, friends.

890
00:44:49,390 --> 00:44:50,310
S1: We'll see you next time.