S1: Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
S1: and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
S1: and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
S1: But before you go, I want to tell you about
S1: this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
S1: And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
S1: going out into the night sky and looking up and
S1: seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
S1: about God? And are you not in a moment of
S1: awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
S1: of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
S1: that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
S1: wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
S1: of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
S1: book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
S1: from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
S1: a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
S1: this sense of awe through the work that they do.
S1: In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
S1: it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
S1: because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
S1: to walk through the chapters written by people who all
S1: have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
S1: to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
S1: amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
S1: just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
S1: for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll
S1: send it right off to you as my way of
S1: saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or
S1: you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S1: When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner.
S1: Those are people who give every single month at a
S1: level of their own choosing. You always get the truth tool,
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S1: my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58 or the website
S1: in the market with Janet Parshall. Consider becoming a partial
S1: partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you
S1: ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi, friends,
S1: this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for choosing to
S1: spend the next hour with us. Today's program is pre-recorded
S1: so our phone lines are not open. But thanks so
S1: much for being with us and enjoy the broadcast.
S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4: Americans worshiping government over God.
S3: Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S4: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1: Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
S1: I am so glad we're going to spend the next
S1: hour together because we're going to talk about seeking the Lord.
S1: A lot of people don't know that that's really what
S1: they're doing, but it really is about listening to the
S1: awe around us, the clues that have already been laid
S1: out before us. You know, he said, because he loves
S1: us so much. And he also made the statement, he's
S1: not willing that any should perish, that if we seek him,
S1: we will find him. If we seek him with all
S1: our heart, we will find him. And that's why read
S1: and first Chronicles. Look to the Lord and his strength.
S1: Seek his face always. Oftentimes, though, people are seeking and
S1: they don't even realize it. And yet there are all
S1: of these things that make us stop and wonder wrapped
S1: around us that just might be there, not by accident,
S1: but ways in which the Lord prods us, pokes us
S1: so that we might continue our journey of discovery of
S1: who he is, and more importantly, who we are in him.
S1: I'm so glad we're going to spend the hour together,
S1: and we're going to spend the hour with Andy Bannister. Now,
S1: I have to say, in full disclosure, I'm rather prejudicial
S1: when it comes to Andy. I absolutely love his writing.
S1: In fact, we have featured his books as truth tools
S1: on this program. That's so important. I think his writing is,
S1: and I love the way he's such a wonderful evangelist.
S1: He has a winsome way of sharing the gospel in
S1: a natural way, in a non-threatening way of picking up
S1: on those clues that already God has placed in other
S1: people's hearts. And he does that. By the way, in
S1: his newest book called Have You Ever Wondered? Now, not
S1: only is Andy an editor in the book, but he's
S1: also a contributor. But by way of background, Doctor Bannister,
S1: to be very formal and accurate is a speaker, a writer,
S1: a broadcaster, and the director of Solas. He's written several books,
S1: including The Atheist Who Didn't Exist or The Terrible Consequences
S1: of Bad Arguments. And Do Muslims and Christians Worship the
S1: Same God? He has a PhD in Islamic studies and
S1: enjoys engaging with people of all faiths, and none about
S1: life's big questions. He's married, he has two children, and
S1: he loves to hike and travel and tell dad jokes. Andy.
S1: What a joy to have you back on the program again.
S1: I should point out to our friends that you join
S1: us on the other side of the pond. At this point,
S1: you should have your fuzzy slippers on and you should
S1: be getting ready for bed, but you're staying up late
S1: to be with us and I don't take that for granted.
S1: So thank you, Andy.
S5: Well, thank you for having me back. Janet and I
S5: have got my mug of cocoa, so I've at least
S5: made a nod to the fact it's it's 10 p.m. here,
S5: but always a delight to join you, even at this hour.
S1: Oh, I thank you so much. I just absolutely love
S1: the book. So I pointed out that not only are
S1: you a co-editor, but you are also a contributor, but
S1: it really is this idea of aw, I love it,
S1: and I thought, I can't possibly encapsulate this. I have
S1: to ask you, Andy, to do it. Talking to people
S1: all over the United States, you have 28 pieces where
S1: 28 questions are asked by starting with the words. Have
S1: you ever wondered how does wonder and finding God tie together?
S5: Well, Janet, this actually grows out of the last book
S5: I wrote, which we I think talked about last time
S5: I was on your show. So that was the, uh,
S5: how to Talk about Jesus without looking like an idiot book.
S5: And I taught the importance of asking questions. And one
S5: of the questions I used was that, have you ever
S5: wondered question. And it's designed when you've got friends, colleagues,
S5: family members who would say to you, I'm not into God,
S5: I'm not interested, I'm not religious. you know, that can
S5: be tough sometimes, right? But what I began to notice,
S5: my friends who are like that, I would often have
S5: things they care deeply about, you know, human rights, justice, racism,
S5: the environment, you know, the the state of politics, whatever
S5: it is, there'd be things they're passionate about and things
S5: that actually really only make sense if there is some
S5: kind of God behind the universe. The easy one to
S5: illustrate that is human rights. You know, if we're just
S5: a collection of atoms, talk of human rights really doesn't
S5: mean much, actually. Whereas if there is a God who
S5: made us in his image and imbued us with value
S5: and dignity, talk about human rights makes a lot of sense.
S5: And so you can begin to realize, to ask these questions.
S5: When our friends express a passion or an interest in something,
S5: you know, if you can learn to sort of gently
S5: wander with them, hey, I wonder why you that matters
S5: to you. I wonder if you've thought about, you know,
S5: perhaps some of the implications of that idea or where
S5: it might come from. And so it started with the
S5: idiot book, as my daughter likes to call that last book. And, uh,
S5: and then we actually my, uh, my co-editor, Gavin at Solas,
S5: and I thought, what about if we did a whole
S5: book on this space? And you say, we've got 28
S5: chapters with an introduction and a conclusion, ten, nine different authors,
S5: including a couple of Americans in there, not just Brits.
S5: And so we look at a whole range of questions,
S5: you know, have you ever wondered why justice matters? Have
S5: you ever wondered why we love stories? Have you ever
S5: wondered why we we seek love? Have you ever wondered, uh,
S5: you know why maths works. I mean, the list goes
S5: on and on and on of questions. And we found already. Janet,
S5: in the two months it's been out, it is just
S5: the easiest evangelistic giveaway. Um, because people love the whole
S5: wandering idea. People love to think and ponder and it's
S5: designed to be very gentle. Book. It doesn't get people
S5: all the way to the gospel, but it starts people
S5: thinking about spiritual questions. And my hope is it opens
S5: up conversations that could lead to the gospel.
S1: Truly. And you are an evangelist at heart. And as
S1: you say, the synergy between how to talk about Jesus
S1: without looking like an idiot and have you ever wondered, really,
S1: is a hand in a glove because you set the
S1: stage for us in How to Talk about Jesus, that
S1: we don't have to be afraid. And you do teach
S1: us the art of natural conversations. And so what you've
S1: done with, have you ever wondered, is you just pay
S1: attention to people? Everybody wonders about something. Whether it's standing
S1: in the night sky, looking up, seeing the stars, and
S1: you start thinking about the universe, eternity, the stars. I mean,
S1: the vastness of this speaks to the littleness of who
S1: we are. And it makes us wonder, why am I here?
S1: What's my purpose for living? So we pick up on
S1: that stuff that's already there. Can I ask just because
S1: there are these 28 different contributions where you pulled your
S1: contributors from?
S5: Yeah. So what we did, we one of the joys
S5: of working for Solus over the years. And I know
S5: you've also had Solus founder David Robertson on your show
S5: in the past. So one of the joys of of
S5: Solus over the years is being a small organization. We've
S5: had to actually, just by design, have to use other
S5: writers and contributors and speakers and we do events. So
S5: that's given us over 16 years this really vast network,
S5: actually mainly in the UK, but also some in the
S5: in the US as well, are people who've written and contributed.
S5: So when we came up with the vision for the book, um,
S5: you know, Gavin Matthews, my co-writer, and I sat down
S5: and went, okay, basically, who would be the dream team? Janet,
S5: you know, if we could, you know, assemble eight other
S5: people to write with us, who would it be? And
S5: in most cases, we got that dream team because we
S5: had those relationships. We reached out to people who we
S5: thought would be great. And, uh, and God was really good.
S5: We ended up with this amazing team of men and women, uh,
S5: writing on these vast range of topics.
S1: And it ends up being an amazing book as a result.
S1: By the way, a couple of thoughts quickly as we
S1: go to break. You know, I've been following Christ for
S1: a long period of time, and it was wonderful for
S1: me because it just affirmed how much God loves me
S1: and the ways in which he's put those clues out
S1: there to let me know that he's there. But also,
S1: it's a marvelous book for evangelization. So I want our
S1: friends particularly to understand that because this is a great
S1: way to have that conversation. And oh, by the way,
S1: for the record, you are praying about having those kinds
S1: of conversations, aren't you? I hope so. That's what this
S1: program is designed to get you to do out there
S1: back after this. Have you ever wondered why music moves
S1: us so deeply, or why beauty takes our breath away?
S1: My Truth Tool this month is a thought provoking book
S1: that explores those moments of wonder we all encounter. It's
S1: called Have You ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of
S1: life point to the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your
S1: copy of. Have you ever wondered when you give a
S1: gift of any amount to in the market, call eight 7758.
S1: That's eight 7758 or go to in the market with
S1: Janet Parshall. Doctor Andy Bannister has another fabulous book out.
S1: This one's called Have You Ever Wondered? Subtitled Finding the
S1: Everyday Clues to Meaning, purpose, and Spirituality. And it's a
S1: marvelous book that just helps us with ease. Connect where
S1: people are at because that wondering is there already. I
S1: think God fingerprinted it in our heart and what these
S1: 28 contributions do in this book is get you to
S1: listen to the answers to wondering questions. Now, Andy's not
S1: just the co-editor, by the way, but he's a contributor.
S1: And so I'm going to talk about some of the
S1: pieces that he authored as well. But again, Andy has
S1: taught us through the years to how to be very
S1: effective as evangelists for Christ and not to be fearful
S1: not to think. You have to have a multiplicity of
S1: initials after your name, not to think that somehow that
S1: you're going to be rejected. Therefore you're already committing a
S1: foul before you even start. The directive is to go
S1: and tell that our heart should so break. For those
S1: who don't yet know Jesus Christ, that whether or not
S1: we suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous criticism, we
S1: still go and tell. But Andy has taught us how
S1: to do it. Where people lay down their arms. You
S1: disarm people by asking them questions like, what do you
S1: wonder about? And then we're going to fill in some
S1: of the blanks on some of those things. But before
S1: I dive in and I was thinking about this today
S1: because you your your forte, you're so much of your
S1: academic preparation was dealing in Islamic studies. That's what you
S1: actually got your PhD in. What drew you to that?
S1: And it seems to me I can understand the baby
S1: step between getting that degree and having a heart for evangelism.
S1: But you could have just been in the world of
S1: academia and done nothing but teach at college campuses about
S1: Islamic studies, but instead you're this wonderfully enthusiastic evangelist. Where's
S1: the linkage?
S5: Well, the linkage, uh, Janet was back in the late 1990s. Uh,
S5: I got invited, uh, by a friend of mine, uh,
S5: up to a place in London, England, called Speaker's Corner,
S5: which was part of one of our big parks in London,
S5: where you can stand on a ladder or a soapbox,
S5: talk about anything. You get a crowd. And he was
S5: using it to preach to the many Muslims, uh, who
S5: were coming to Speaker's Corner to, to preach Islam. And
S5: my friend Jay invited me up to come and watch
S5: what was going on. But when I got up to
S5: Speaker's Corner, he produced a second, uh, stepladder to preach on,
S5: and I said, why have you got two ladders? He went, well,
S5: you're going to stand next to me and preach. And
S5: I went, oh, I've never preached on the street before.
S5: He went, oh, it's easy anyway. Any fool can do it.
S5: I said, I've never, never talked to Muslims before. Oh,
S5: they're easy. Any idiot could do it. Well, it turns out, Janet,
S5: he was wrong on both counts. Because I failed utterly,
S5: because my new Muslim friends had questions and objections. But
S5: I kind of got the bug. And so I went home,
S5: sort of my tail between my legs, but started reading
S5: and working to get the answers to their questions. Came
S5: back two weeks later and they had new questions. So
S5: we repeated this exercise. Um, but over the next three
S5: months or so, I would go to Speakers Corner. On
S5: the weekends, I would read, uh, what we might now
S5: call apologetics books, dealing with with the reasons for the
S5: Christian faith, um, and what that did over those 3
S5: to 4 months. And then actually, I stayed for a
S5: few more years after I really mastered the kind of
S5: subject was. It gave me a love of public proclamation
S5: of the gospel, but that was woven in with real conversations.
S5: So I think that was really important to me. I
S5: didn't sort of go into academia first and then try
S5: and apply it afterwards. The two just went lockstep for me.
S5: That eventually led to going to seminary. Um, I hadn't
S5: gone to university before I was 28, uh, when I
S5: finally kind of went, uh, and then off the back
S5: of that did the PhD. But you're right. When I
S5: went in to do the PhD for the first year, Janet,
S5: I thought, well, my career path is going to be
S5: teaching at a university or a seminary somewhere like that.
S5: But I very quickly discovered, you know, I get bored
S5: unless I'm applying this stuff. So, um, my, my PhD
S5: took me seven years because I couldn't keep my backside
S5: on the seat because I was out sort of doing
S5: ministry and stuff. And actually my PhD supervisor, who was
S5: brilliant missions background himself, was he's like, Andy, I think
S5: you need to think about how you might apply this
S5: into actually evangelism and frontline stuff. You know, you're good
S5: at the academic stuff, but actually you're going to get
S5: really bored very quickly. And he was dead, right. So
S5: I now love I love teaching, I do stuff at
S5: universities quite often. I'll do guest lecturing Janet. But my
S5: passion is actually engaging people either who think differently Muslims, atheists,
S5: skeptics or helping Christians engage them. So yeah, I'm a
S5: big believer in how we can take good research and
S5: good academic ideas and take it down to a really
S5: popular level where people can actually apply it.
S1: I just love that. And forgive me for lingering, but
S1: I think I must, because I think this is a
S1: conversation not had enough in the church today. Capital C universal.
S1: I'm one of those people who grew up where evangelism
S1: was just taught, when from the time I came to
S1: the Lord and I came to him at six. Growing forward,
S1: the evangelism was just part of the air we breathed.
S1: We'd walk out of the church and he'd say, you're
S1: now entering your mission field. I mean, that was the
S1: way I grew up. But now there seems to be
S1: a kind of reticence, at least in the United States.
S1: And of course, not all churches. Some are very much
S1: mission minded and evangelism minded, but others are not. They're
S1: very quiet. They're passive. We'll just love people in, you know,
S1: we're going to find all kinds of razzle dazzle ways
S1: to get him into the church. And, you know, that'll
S1: be a great way to hold their attention. And then
S1: maybe we can start talking to them about Jesus. But
S1: hitting the streets, if I can use the phrase that
S1: way and sharing it, it's it's it's lackluster now in
S1: the United States. Give me the atmospherics in the UK.
S1: Is it the same? And if it is, what do
S1: we need to revitalize that? Because as I see this, yes,
S1: there's a specific gift of evangelism, but all of us
S1: are supposed to go and tell. So how do we
S1: reinvigorate that?
S5: Yeah, I mean, very similar here in the UK. There's
S5: some wonderful churches doing doing great stuff. I mean, I
S5: am blessed to go to, to attend a really missional
S5: church locally doing wonderful, wonderful stuff. But I think a
S5: lot of churches are struggling and I think where they're
S5: struggling is Christians are afraid. You know, the big issues
S5: and big battles in culture. Same in the US as
S5: in the UK. I think Christians are afraid. What if
S5: I try and share my faith at work and I
S5: get accused of being transphobic or whatever, and that fear
S5: causes them to back down? Often Christians don't know our
S5: own faith, so we don't feel really equipped. What if
S5: I share my faith and someone asks me a tough question?
S5: And then the more challenging one. Sometimes we've adopted this
S5: very comfortable Western Christianity, quite frankly, where everything's comfortable, church
S5: is comfortable, everything's comfortable. So don't make it uncomfortable. By
S5: having conversations with my colleagues, I just sort of end
S5: up privatising my faith. And that can happen quite subtly.
S5: What I think can be really helpful is to be
S5: thinking about and you mentioned prayer earlier. So important praying
S5: about where are the places where God might just gently
S5: challenge you or less, more, perhaps more firmly challenge you
S5: to just go slightly beyond your comfort zones. You don't
S5: all need to go to Speaker's Corner and stand on
S5: a ladder and preach to Muslims. That's the wrong lesson
S5: from what I shared. But it might be God is
S5: calling you to perhaps just put your head above the
S5: parapet at work, or perhaps, you know, invite a neighbour
S5: round for a meal and find a way over that
S5: to sort of talk about Christ. Maybe it might be
S5: loving people and doing some great act of service in
S5: your community. But when people ask why you're doing it,
S5: you don't just sort of fluff it. You say, I'm
S5: doing it because I want to demonstrate the love of Christ.
S5: All of us have our different style of evangelism, but
S5: I think going out from the church into the outside
S5: has to lie at the heart of it.
S1: Amen and amen. Doctor Andy Bannister is with us. By
S1: the way, let me point out again, this dear man
S1: is joining us on the other side of the pond
S1: from the UK. It's much later at night, and yet
S1: I'm so very grateful he stayed up to be with
S1: us so we can talk about his newest book. Have
S1: you ever wondered finding the everyday clues to meaning, purpose
S1: and spirituality? 28 separate little gems in this book that
S1: get you thinking about the ways in which God draws
S1: us through our wandering back after this. Doctor Andy Bannister
S1: joins us from the UK. Much later at night than
S1: it is here in Washington DC, and we're so grateful
S1: he's with us because he has another fabulous brand new book,
S1: The Core. The heart of this, his passion. It's the
S1: fire in his bones, to quote Jeremiah, is really evangelism.
S1: And so he's put together, along with several other contributors,
S1: a marvelous book called Have You Ever Wondered? Finding the
S1: everyday clues to meaning, purpose, and spirituality. It is a
S1: fabulous book, by the way, just to reaffirm how much
S1: God loves you and how he left clues everywhere so
S1: that you could find him all the while, in truth,
S1: he was pursuing you. And for those of you listening
S1: who haven't figured out this God thing, who don't know
S1: who this Jesus is, let me recommend this book to you.
S1: This would be a wonderful place for you to start,
S1: and to look at some of the wonder questions that
S1: are put out there, and there are 28 of them
S1: for your consideration. Andy is not only the the co-editor
S1: of the book, but he's also a contributor. And the
S1: rest of his life, when he's not writing and speaking,
S1: he's director of Solas, which is a marvelous group. It
S1: deals with evangelism and training based in Scotland, but it
S1: covers the entire UK. And you'll know that our dear friend,
S1: Doctor David Robertson or David Robertson, who now serves in
S1: New South Wales in Australia, joins us on a regular
S1: basis where we talk about his perspective on the world
S1: around him. So one of the things you did, and
S1: you put it as the very first chapter, which I
S1: thought was interesting and not by happenstance. You start with
S1: the first wonder question. Have you ever wondered why we
S1: long for happiness? And I loved the way you looked
S1: at this, that all of us have a kind of
S1: appetite for this temporal Satisfaction of whatever it is we
S1: hunger for. Talk to me about this because again, you
S1: talk about the the universality of the human experience. And
S1: that's what I love, the subtext really, of. Have you
S1: ever wondered is these are experiences common to every single
S1: one of us, which therefore makes it a marvelous starting
S1: point when we're talking to people about the transcendent truths
S1: of God.
S5: Well, that's right. And I think the one of the
S5: other things we tried to do, Janet, as well, is
S5: you don't need to read the book in order, was
S5: the other fun thing. So, you know, if you give
S5: this to a friend, you can leave through and go, oh,
S5: that intrigues me or that intrigues me. But yeah. So
S5: my my first chapter was happiness and I, I was
S5: struck by a number of a number of conversations I've had,
S5: you know, which boil down to people sort of telling
S5: you what it is they're doing to try and be
S5: try and be happy, you know, whether they're looking for
S5: happiness in their job or their educational, educational career or
S5: following their sports team or whatever it is, happiness really is,
S5: you know, the universal human pursuit. And then the sort
S5: of stats pick this up. I mean, Google every year,
S5: you know, tell us the data. I think they call
S5: it the Google zeitgeist on, you know what people searched
S5: for that year and questions around happiness always come up
S5: really high. People literally put, how can I be happy
S5: into Google? And that chapter really explores the fact that firstly,
S5: it's intriguing why we're like that. You know, in the
S5: animal kingdom, you know, our animal cousins seem to be
S5: quite happy just feeding, fleeing, fighting and reproducing. Um, you know,
S5: squirrels don't sit around having existential crises about whether they're
S5: happy or not. Um, but then humans, we have this
S5: tendency to look for happiness in things that don't quite
S5: satisfy us. So we're unusual in the animal kingdom and
S5: that sex and food are not enough. They are for
S5: most animals. They're not for human beings. We want we
S5: want more than that. And if we just try and
S5: make life about those things, those things will let us down. Um,
S5: sometimes we try and find happiness and success, you know,
S5: whether it's achievement at university or the sports field or
S5: at work. But the problem is that's deeply, deeply insecure
S5: because eventually somebody will join your sports team, your university
S5: or your workplace who performs better than you. Do you
S5: know you will hit the top of the roller coaster
S5: and come down the other side. And even if you
S5: try and find happiness and things like your family and
S5: your kids and those things quite noble pursuits, well, eventually
S5: those two come to an end. The kids will grow
S5: up and leave home. You know, we have a name
S5: for that. We call that the empty nest syndrome. And
S5: that chapter just really plays with the idea of going
S5: that kind of, sort of pyramid as you work up.
S5: Could there be some source of happiness out there that
S5: actually is not going to ultimately let us down? And
S5: I think from memory, I come in to land on that.
S5: You know that saying of Jesus, I've come that you
S5: might have life and have it to the full. And
S5: I just wonder, therefore, if that's something that might just
S5: be worth thinking about in terms of, you know, that
S5: that support for a greater, a greater framework for happiness
S5: than just the things in front of us that will
S5: ultimately let us down. So it's, again, a gentle nudge
S5: towards the gospel doesn't get you all the way by
S5: a long way. But I found, you know, that conversation
S5: around happiness is a great conversation for beginning spiritual conversations.
S1: Yes. And, you know, Doctor Francis Schaeffer talked about this
S1: years ago. He talked about pre evangelism. He talked about
S1: working on the outside of the culture and moving inside.
S1: And I think so often we think we just have
S1: to go right for the bullseye. But you know it's relational.
S1: So start on the outside and it's non-threatening. It's conversational.
S1: Um there's a letting down of the guard and you
S1: can start having some of these conversations. What I found
S1: is interesting, and I should point out that part of
S1: your expertise is also philosophy, not just Islamic studies. So
S1: you write about the four levels of happiness that Aristotle
S1: writes about, which I thought was fascinating. And I found
S1: that number two, which is the comparison about having more,
S1: being better than the next person. I thought, I think
S1: I remember something about that written with a pen of
S1: fire and a tablet of stone and a mountain somewhere.
S1: So this idea of covetousness goes all the way back.
S1: But the last landing point, and the one you just
S1: alluded to is even Aristotle says, in the end, it's
S1: not about you. It's something you're going to have to
S1: find outside of yourself.
S5: It's got to be a source outside of yourself. Yeah.
S5: That's right. And just a hat tip, by the way,
S5: that idea of Aristotle, I got that from a friend
S5: of mine in Canada called John Patrick, who was who
S5: for years. He's a medic. He told me stories. He
S5: would have wonderful conversations with fellow passengers on airplanes, simply
S5: by asking them about their life and listening to their
S5: life story, and then he'd look at them and smile
S5: and say, so, are you happy? And that question would
S5: open up. And then whatever they answered, John would say,
S5: did you know that the ancient thinkers, like Aristotle, thought
S5: there were actually four levels of happiness? Or people are
S5: always going to go, oh, really? What are they? And
S5: he was off. So it's a really clever idea, actually,
S5: of playing with that word happiness, because I think it's
S5: a word that everybody uses, but no one actually knows
S5: what they mean by it. And so again, we can,
S5: we can wonder with, with people in a very non-threatening way.
S1: But you kept it beautifully when you go to that verse.
S1: And I think we love that verse because it tells
S1: us how rich our relationship is with Christ. I've come
S1: that you might have life and have it abundantly. So
S1: if it's outside of our our selves and Jesus promises
S1: an abundant life, and what could make you happier than
S1: an abundant life? Well, that life is found in Jesus.
S1: So as you say, it isn't doesn't go right for
S1: the core, but begins to plant those seeds, which I
S1: think is outstanding. I'm going to examine some more of
S1: the wonder questions that Andy raised, but remember, there's a
S1: total of 28 in the book. I'm not going to
S1: get anywhere near the 28. And that's good, because if
S1: it gets you to get a copy of the book,
S1: to read it for yourself and wonder, fabulous. Remember, even
S1: if you know Christ, great book of encouragement. And if
S1: you don't, wonderful place to start. Have you ever wondered
S1: back after this? The questions that matter most often come
S1: while watching a sunset, or listening to music, or looking
S1: into the night sky. That's why I've chosen. Have you
S1: ever wondered, is this month's truth tool? God draws us
S1: to himself through a sense of awe and wonder, and
S1: this book will help you discover how. As for your
S1: copy of have you ever wondered when you give a
S1: gift of any amount in the market, call eight 7758.
S1: That's eight 7758 or go to in the market with
S1: Janet Parshall. Always, always, always a terrific joy to be
S1: able to spend time with. Doctor Andy Bannister joins us
S1: from the UK. We're so glad he's with us again.
S1: He's got another excellent book. This one is called Have
S1: You Ever Wondered finding the everyday clues to meaning, purpose
S1: and spirituality. Doctor Bannister is a speaker, a writer, a
S1: broadcaster and director of soulless. We're very familiar with soulless
S1: on this program. He's written several books, including The Atheist
S1: Who Didn't Exist or The Terrible Consequences of Bad Arguments.
S1: And do Muslims and Christians worship the same God coming
S1: from a man who has a PhD in Islamic studies?
S1: So in have you ever wondered? There are 28 contributions
S1: there wonder questions and they really are the the reminder,
S1: if you will, that God does fingerprint us, the Blaise
S1: Pascal that resides in the heart of every man, a
S1: God shaped void, and only a personal relationship with him
S1: will satisfy. So you realize these wonder questions aren't by happenstance.
S1: So here's another one. Have you ever wondered, and this
S1: is one of the contributions by Andy. Have you ever
S1: wondered why the best stories are about good and evil?
S1: You know, that's why fairy tales, many of them, by
S1: the way, the classics written by people who were professing
S1: Christians because they were morality tales good triumphed over evil.
S1: And there's something in her heart that said, that's what
S1: we long for. That's what we hope for. That's what
S1: we'd like to see. But there's something compelling about these stories.
S1: And if they're stories, is there a war against good
S1: and evil in the universe? And if there is, how
S1: do I recognize? And on whose side am I mean?
S1: It begins to ask a panoply of other questions here.
S1: So go I got tears in my eyes because you
S1: talked about Dickens, and I thought that that was so
S1: very powerful. Um, when you recognize this idea of literally
S1: laying down your life for your friend, and stories do
S1: have a way of reminding us about good and evil.
S1: So why is it that we resonate? It isn't by happenstance.
S1: Somebody didn't say, this is an interesting genre of literature.
S1: It looks like it might be successful. It reflects what's
S1: already in the human heart. Why is it there?
S5: Well, boy, I love this chapter. Janet's My Fate was
S5: my favorite chapter to write because I love I love
S5: fairy tales, I love fantasy, I am a massive Tolkien, uh,
S5: kind of kind of fan. I, you know, read Lord
S5: of the rings every year. And I noticed a few
S5: years ago it occurred to me, as I was on
S5: my sort of annual read through, of going, it's interesting,
S5: isn't it? The stories that have the greatest longevity have
S5: this common theme of being about good and evil. So
S5: Tolkien is an obvious one. Um, Harry Potter for more
S5: a more recent example. I don't just mean, you know
S5: what the latest Hollywood blockbuster is, the stories that are
S5: being told and retold and retold and retold fairy tales, uh,
S5: you've mentioned and then even, by the way, when you
S5: get the dysfunctional stuff like George Orwell's 1984, you're not
S5: supposed to celebrate Big Brother winning. You're supposed to get
S5: to the end of that and go, that is so depressing.
S5: That's not the way it's supposed to be. And the
S5: problem is, of course, if we live in a godless universe,
S5: the mystery is, where did we get this idea that
S5: good triumphs over evil? Because if there is no God
S5: behind this universe. The answer is it doesn't. It's. It's
S5: a lie. Ultimately chaos wins. Death has the final word,
S5: and everything ends in the heat. Death at the end
S5: of the universe. And the only, you know, the only
S5: sort of story that all of us are playing, playing
S5: a role in is the story that each, each human
S5: being is part of. You know, born, uh, suffered and died.
S5: But we don't believe that. So either we're deluded in
S5: telling ourselves these stories, or they are a reflection of
S5: a greater reality. And of course, the Tolkien fan in
S5: me would say, you know, Tolkien wrote a famous essay
S5: on fairy tales in which he makes this point that
S5: these stories reflect the greatest story, the true story, and
S5: it's reflected and refracted in the little stories that we
S5: ourselves tell. So again, you can start from the stories
S5: that your friends love and go, hey, why did you
S5: enjoy that movie? Well, it was great because the good
S5: guy won, the good guys won, the bad guy got
S5: beaten up and dumped and, you know, lost. Why is that?
S5: Why do we love those kind of stories? And you
S5: can with a bit of practice, connect that to the gospel,
S5: or you just give your friend this book right and
S5: give them chapter three.
S1: Either way would work just fine.
S5: It would work just fine.
S1: You know, I find it. I love this idea because, uh,
S1: you were talking about Tolkien. I'll talk about one of
S1: his friends, and that's Lewis. When Lewis talked about the
S1: great myth, he was talking about the fact that there
S1: is that story. It is the story of good triumphing
S1: over evil. So there's something that draws us to that
S1: story because we want good to triumph over evil. But
S1: let me throw in a name we used earlier as well,
S1: because I love this. Because I think that the aesthetic
S1: is one of the paths for us to start on
S1: our journey toward God. And certainly the stories are a
S1: part of that aesthetic journey. So, um, Francis Shaver talked
S1: about the devolution of art and how it was reflected
S1: once you moved away from having a biblical worldview and
S1: humanism took over, the ideas of good and evil began
S1: to dissipate. And now we have this juxtaposition where oftentimes
S1: evil triumphs over good. Or there's such a blurred line
S1: of distinction between good and evil. You walked away unsatisfied,
S1: but yet it's a hallmark if you take Schafer's perspective
S1: on this, and I do that. This is what happens
S1: when you've supplanted a biblical worldview with a humanist worldview.
S1: It's vacuous in the end, and so you have a
S1: hard time distinguishing between good and evil and right and wrong.
S5: Yeah, I think you do. But I think where I'd
S5: go slightly further than Schafer. Schafer was a huge influence
S5: on me as a as a young Christian. So I'm
S5: glad you're also a fan. Um, but I think actually
S5: people rebel. I think you've seen this in things like cinema,
S5: you know, movies that have tried to really just rip
S5: everything up and celebrate the, the, you know, nasty stuff
S5: and downplay the heroic or deconstruct heroes, um, have done badly.
S5: I mean, look at the look at the the the
S5: ticket returns on the Star Wars movies. You know, once
S5: they start deconstructing their heroes, fans kind of walk away.
S5: And a couple of years ago, you know, um, when
S5: I noticed when you had, you know, Tom Cruise's, you know,
S5: remake of Top Gun. You know, Top Gun Maverick, that
S5: thing cleaned up at the cinema because I think audience
S5: was like, yes, a movie with a hero and a
S5: clear moral framework, and there's good and there's evil. So
S5: I think actually, um, yeah, Schafer was absolutely right. But
S5: I think he missed the fact or could have made
S5: the point that I think people rebel and go, no,
S5: we don't want these stories. Thank you very much. Yeah.
S5: People are looking are desperately looking for meaning and that.
S5: And then you end up with this strange sort of disconnect,
S5: I think, between perhaps the literati and the artistic culture
S5: and the ordinary people. Yeah. Which is going on. But yeah,
S5: I don't think you I don't think you can escape it. Um,
S5: and by the way, you mentioned Louis, one of the
S5: fun things, of course, is, you know, um, is that Tolkien,
S5: of course, was instrumental in leading Louis to faith. And
S5: one of Lewis's stumbling blocks was the gospel looked like
S5: a myth. And it was it was talking to help
S5: him see. No, no, you're missing the fact that it's
S5: a true myth. This story has mythic qualities to it,
S5: with the difference that it actually happened, and all those
S5: other myths that you love are actually refractions and reflections
S5: of the one true story. When that light bulb moment
S5: went on for Lewis, that was when he became a Christian.
S5: On that famous walk along the river in Oxford with
S5: Tolkien and Hugo Dyson.
S1: I'll tell you again the power of a story. And
S1: you know, I jumped the gun because I talked about
S1: A Tale of Two Cities, and maybe.
S6: Because in my mind.
S1: I thought, wait a minute, there is good and evil
S1: in there. But really, this goes to the wonder question
S1: you posited about why do we hate selfishness and admire altruism?
S1: And to the biggest skeptic, you know, grumpy old person
S1: out there who might be listening, why do we get
S1: tears in our eyes when we watch stories of people
S1: who sacrifice for someone else, who do what's good, even
S1: if it's going to cost them everything? And so here's
S1: where you bring in Dickens, and you talked about A
S1: Christmas Carol, and you talk about A Tale of Two Cities.
S1: I thought it was brilliant the way you did this.
S1: Share this with our friends.
S5: Well of course, uh, yes. I mean, Christmas Carol. I,
S5: as I say, the definitive version being, of course, The
S5: Muppet Christmas Carol. and my kids love. It's a great
S5: way into Dickens and what I start by making the
S5: point in that classic story. Whether you've read it or
S5: seen a sophisticated version or you've watched the Muppet version. Um,
S5: we that story works because Dickens was able to assume that,
S5: you know, that Scrooge is not the hero. You're not
S5: supposed to sit there going, yes, Scrooge is fantastic. He's wonderful. Um,
S5: and you're not supposed to be disappointed when he becomes
S5: he discovers a heart and compassion at the end. You're
S5: supposed to go on that journey with him and go,
S5: that's fantastic! He's gone from being a selfish, grumpy old
S5: man to somebody now who is, you know, returned to
S5: the human race, and you're supposed to cheer that? Dickens
S5: could assume that. But why could he assume that? Why
S5: assume that altruism is a good thing? Why not every
S5: man or woman for himself? That's the case in nature. Uh,
S5: most of the time. Where do we get this idea
S5: from that sacrificing for others is a is a good thing.
S5: And then I bring that other Dickens, uh, story, and
S5: I bring in A Tale of Two Cities, which has
S5: this amazing sacrifice at, uh, At the heart of it.
S5: When you've got Charles Darnay and Sydney Carton, who looks,
S5: you know, they look almost identical. Charles gets arrested during
S5: the French Revolution and, uh, is facing the capital punishment.
S5: Sydney visits him in prison. Uh, has him drugged and
S5: smuggled out, takes his place, dies for him. Uh. Incredible story.
S5: I mean, I've hardly done justice summarizing it in 30s. Um,
S5: but just this amazing story of the gospel story retold
S5: in through that Dickens tale. Exactly. Um, and basically the
S5: point I make is, I think the reason we love
S5: stories of self-sacrifice is, again, it's the same idea. Janet.
S5: It's the reflection of the of the one true story.
S5: We all know that the greatest form of love is self-sacrifice, which,
S5: by the way, gets you not just to what kind
S5: of God you know. Is there a God? But what
S5: kind of God? Because the God of the Koran is
S5: not a God who laid down his life or paid
S5: a price for us, but the God of the Bible
S5: is a God who it says in the book of Romans,
S5: you know, loved us so much that even while we
S5: were still sinners, while we were still his enemies, He
S5: gave his life for us. And so that story of
S5: Sydney giving his life for Charles is the story of
S5: each one of us, uh, through what God has done
S5: for us in Christ.
S1: Exactly. In the book, you do a beautiful job. And
S1: by the way, if you have if you don't want
S1: to read the book and you should, it's wonderful. It's
S1: a classic. You can watch the movie with Ronald Colman, um,
S1: black and white classic. And that's just unbelievably powerful. But
S1: you talk about the young seamstress who's also condemned to speak,
S1: and she turns to Sydney and she said, are you
S1: dying for him? And he responds, and his wife and
S1: his child. Shh. And I got tears in my eyes
S1: when I read that because I thought, you know, this
S1: is what some people call the shadow of Christ, right?
S1: Where he makes these appearances in literature and art. And
S1: if we're paying attention, by the way, as believers, it's
S1: a great pick up point to be able to say,
S1: did you see that movie? Did you read that book?
S1: Did you get this? What did you think about that?
S1: Because Christ is there making an appearance, although sometimes not
S1: fully defined, fully pixelated, if I can use modern terms,
S1: but the presence is there and it's a good place
S1: to start. And that's exactly what you point out in
S1: this idea of why do we hate selfishness and admire altruism?
S1: So friends, are you getting the drift? Do you see
S1: these wonder questions? And this is why, again, the core
S1: of this is really evangelism. Not to be afraid. Meet
S1: people where they're at, knowing that universally in the human condition,
S1: we have all of us these wonder conditions. And in
S1: the book, have you ever wondered, there are 28 little
S1: wonder questions for us to think about. So you read it.
S1: Give it to somebody who doesn't yet know the Lord.
S1: Somebody listening right now. If you don't know Christ, if
S1: you don't know this God and His Son Jesus, I
S1: encourage you to pick up a copy of Have You
S1: Ever Wondered? It's right there on my information page at
S1: In the Market with Janet Parshall back after this. By
S1: the way, if you want to learn more about Doctor
S1: Andy Bannister, I have a link to his website on
S1: our information page Andy Banister, Andy Banister and also the
S1: new book of the many that Andy has written is
S1: called Have You Ever Wondered finding the everyday clues to meaning,
S1: purpose and spirituality? The corn will say it again is
S1: really evangelism 28 Little Gems. And that's what I think
S1: they are asking a wonder question that gently points us
S1: to God. A non-threatening way to get people to start
S1: thinking about something bigger than themselves, some one bigger than themselves.
S1: And one of the wonder questions. And this is an
S1: excellent one. And Andy, I'm so glad you contributed this
S1: one to the book, is have you ever wondered if
S1: all religions are basically the same? As I noted at
S1: the start of our conversation, you got your PhD in
S1: Islamic studies, so it would be very easy to say, okay,
S1: it's comparative theology. What is the distinction about Christianity from all?
S1: If I were going down the elevator 30s what's the
S1: distinctive for Christianity from all other religions?
S5: Well, what I would say, Janet, is the question that
S5: people often ask. They often approach the question this way.
S5: Do all religions lead to God? And I would say
S5: the distinction in Christianity is that no other religion even
S5: claims to lead to God. You know, Buddhism claims to
S5: lead you to sort of absorption into the cosmic whateverness.
S5: Atheism leads you to death and extinction. Uh, Islam, which
S5: is the one people often think, actually, that claims to
S5: lead you to Paradise, uh, which is a place where
S5: there's rivers of wine, wonderful, uh, fruit trees, food and, uh,
S5: women for the men to enjoy in the hereafter. But Christianity,
S5: on the other hand, the promise, if it offers out,
S5: is a relationship with God walking and talking with him
S5: as it was in the beginning, before the world went wrong,
S5: when sin entered into eternity. So actually, it is only
S5: Christianity that claims to be able to lead us to
S5: God in the first place. And by the way, it's
S5: not so much leading us to God as God coming
S5: to us in Christ. That's where I would start. Much
S5: more to be said, but that's where I'd begin.
S1: You do something else, which I thought was brilliant. You
S1: said that you can divide the world's religions into three groups. Thinking. Feeling. Doing.
S1: Explain that to our friends.
S5: That's right. So if you try and one of the
S5: big challenges, Janet, is what the word religion means. Um,
S5: it's a very slippery term because people often say what
S5: it means belief in God. Well, actually, traditional Buddhism doesn't
S5: believe in God. So if you try and divide religion
S5: up and explain it in other kind of ways, anthropologists,
S5: sociologists and so forth have come up with this sort
S5: of grid, actually. So this is not unique to me.
S5: So you can basically divide the world's religions, as you say,
S5: into those based on thinking Buddhism, classic example. You master
S5: the right teachings, you learn the right truths, and you
S5: can get to a, you know, a nirvana, wisdom, a
S5: higher state of living. Other religions go the experience route.
S5: Lots of eastern religions go this way, have the right
S5: mystical experience, and you can somehow connect with the divine.
S5: You know, whatever it is you're looking for. And then
S5: other religions go the action route. The doing route. Here
S5: are a set of commands and instructions. Follow those. Do
S5: those things and you can gain blessing, uh, you know, whatever.
S5: And work your way upwards to the divine. And you
S5: can pretty much divide the world's religions into those three groups.
S5: The one exception again. And in the chapter, I just
S5: play with the idea that it's interesting that Christianity doesn't
S5: really fit because Christianity is not a set of teachings
S5: brought by Jesus, although he said some amazing things. That's
S5: not primarily what it is. It's a it's not primarily
S5: a set of experiences. Although knowing Jesus can be amazing
S5: and it's not a set of commandments and moral and
S5: nor a moral code, although it will change how you
S5: live if you truly believe it. What is at the
S5: heart of Christianity? It is in fact, Jesus. Christianity is
S5: all about him and his personality. As somebody once remarked,
S5: Take Christ out of Christian and you're left with three
S5: letters I, A, and N, and Ian cannot help you. Um,
S5: and it's that it's that person centered nature, which also
S5: is interesting because Christianity stands or falls, I would say,
S5: on the person of Jesus. You know, Jesus looks at
S5: each one of us and says, who do you say
S5: that I am? And all of us ultimately are forced
S5: to face the question. Okay, do I believe him? Am
S5: I going to dismiss him, ignore him, write him off
S5: as a lunatic or a liar or any of those things? Lewis, C.S.
S5: Lewis's classic, you know, lunatic, liar or Lord, really? What
S5: it comes back to Jesus is the one that comes
S5: back to. And that's a great way to get people thinking.
S5: I think about the truth claims of Christianity rather than
S5: some sort of disconnected set of truths. Let's take a
S5: look at Jesus.
S1: So let me build on this if I can. And
S1: I don't want to say it too simplistically, but is
S1: would you say when you look at all the other
S1: religions in the world, is Christianity the only one that
S1: is person centered? I know there's gods in Hinduism, and
S1: I know that there's Muhammad in Islam, but they none
S1: of them seem to make the. And this is a
S1: rhetorical question, but none of them seem to make the
S1: kind of declarative statements that Jesus did. None of them
S1: seem to touch and bend down and assimilate like the others.
S1: So is the distinctive the person?
S5: Yes, very much so. And I think one of the
S5: things you can say to a friend if you're talking
S5: about other religions and so on. You can say if
S5: somebody takes offense at you, you know, making Jesus unique,
S5: you can gently say, Janet, okay, can you bring somebody
S5: I can compare him to? Can you show me somebody
S5: else who made the claims that he did, who taught
S5: the way that he did, who who made the exalted
S5: sort of claims about his own person, uh, that he
S5: did claim to be equal to God. Being able to
S5: forgive sins, putting himself on a par with, uh, you know,
S5: with the, uh, with the temple and so on and
S5: so forth. Because I don't think there's even another competitor
S5: on the table, which is interesting. Um, you know, Muhammad, uh,
S5: whatever we make of him, um, didn't make those kind
S5: of claims. He claimed to be just a Warner, just
S5: a teacher of revealed truths that had been revealed to
S5: him through the angel Gabriel. He didn't claim anything like
S5: what Jesus did. And this is why, by the way,
S5: I mentioned a moment ago. That's why C.S. Lewis in
S5: Mere Christianity makes that famous challenge. You are faced as
S5: you look at the claims that Jesus made, you really
S5: are forced to conclude either this guy was a self-aggrandizing liar. Um,
S5: he was completely Stark staring mad, or you are forced to.
S5: The third possibility that actually the claims that he made
S5: were true. And then you add, of course, the resurrection
S5: vindicating that, and you're left with something quite compelling.
S1: Exactly. Andy, in an audience our size, you know that
S1: there are people listening right now who have not yet
S1: answered the question, who is this Jesus? You conclude by
S1: giving people several suggested steps on their spiritual journey. Share
S1: a few of them with us as we close.
S5: Yeah. So at the end of the very last chapter, Janet,
S5: I suggest, where do you go from here? So the
S5: first thing I'd say would say, try praying. Try praying. Look, God,
S5: I'm not sure what I think about you. I don't
S5: even know if I believe in you, but if you
S5: are real, would you show yourself to me? Would you
S5: guide me towards you? Praying is a good thing. If
S5: you've never sat down and read one of the gospels,
S5: we just talked about Jesus. Well, read Mark's Gospel over
S5: an evening or two. Or, if you're not a reader
S5: listening to an audiobook, talk to the friend who gave you.
S5: Have you ever wondered if you end up with one
S5: and perhaps go to church? Then one Sunday? You know,
S5: church is not as bad as some of the things
S5: you may have heard. Lots of Christians are quite normal. Um,
S5: and um, and then fourthly, begin reading and studying a
S5: little bit further. You know, I think Christianity is so
S5: potentially important. If it's true, it's worth investing the time
S5: to see whether it's true. You don't lose much by
S5: giving it the time to consider it properly.
S1: In fact, you conclude the book with a great question.
S1: Have you ever wondered if it's time to finally explore
S1: where they're pointing? The book is called Have You Ever
S1: wondered finding everyday clues to meaning, purpose, and spirituality? 28
S1: Little Wonder questions that are asked. Excellent for you who
S1: already know Jesus. Just the confirmation of how much he
S1: loves you and pursued you. In truth, for those of
S1: you who haven't answered the God question or who is
S1: Jesus Lord, lunatic or liar, this might be a great
S1: place for you to start, so I strongly recommend to you.
S1: Have you ever wondered Doctor Andy Bannister, another fabulous conversation.
S1: My deepest thanks. Thank you friends. We'll see you next time.