WEBVTT - Hour 2: Have You Ever Wondered? 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.800 Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:06.920 and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens, 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.520 and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:11.440 But before you go, I want to tell you about 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.680 this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered? 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.720 And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me, 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.600 going out into the night sky and looking up and 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.439 seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.560 about God? And are you not in a moment of 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.960 awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.600 of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.800 that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.240 wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.480 of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.720 book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.879 from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.160 a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.599 this sense of awe through the work that they do. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.120 In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.440 it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.139 because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you 0:01:00.140 --> 0:01:03.540 to walk through the chapters written by people who all 0:01:03.540 --> 0:01:06.300 have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes 0:01:06.300 --> 0:01:09.100 to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an 0:01:09.100 --> 0:01:11.420 amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount, 0:01:11.420 --> 0:01:16.260 just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask 0:01:16.260 --> 0:01:19.140 for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll 0:01:19.140 --> 0:01:20.420 send it right off to you as my way of 0:01:20.420 --> 0:01:22.940 saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or 0:01:22.940 --> 0:01:25.380 you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. 0:01:26.540 --> 0:01:29.420 When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner. 0:01:29.420 --> 0:01:31.620 Those are people who give every single month at a 0:01:31.620 --> 0:01:34.100 level of their own choosing. You always get the truth tool, 0:01:34.140 --> 0:01:36.260 but in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter 0:01:36.260 --> 0:01:39.060 that includes my writing and an audio piece just for 0:01:39.060 --> 0:01:43.220 my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58 or the website 0:01:43.220 --> 0:01:46.860 in the market with Janet Parshall. Consider becoming a partial 0:01:46.860 --> 0:01:49.780 partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you 0:01:49.780 --> 0:01:59.280 ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi, friends, 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:01.480 this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for choosing to 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:04.720 spend the next hour with us. Today's program is pre-recorded 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:06.800 so our phone lines are not open. But thanks so 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.280 much for being with us and enjoy the broadcast. 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:11.160 Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:13.640 The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:15.880 Americans worshiping government over God. 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:19.520 Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years. 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:21.600 The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:40.320 Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.480 I am so glad we're going to spend the next 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:46.280 hour together because we're going to talk about seeking the Lord. 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.800 A lot of people don't know that that's really what 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:52.760 they're doing, but it really is about listening to the 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.840 awe around us, the clues that have already been laid 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.870 out before us. You know, he said, because he loves 0:02:58.870 --> 0:03:00.829 us so much. And he also made the statement, he's 0:03:00.830 --> 0:03:03.590 not willing that any should perish, that if we seek him, 0:03:03.590 --> 0:03:06.230 we will find him. If we seek him with all 0:03:06.230 --> 0:03:10.109 our heart, we will find him. And that's why read 0:03:10.110 --> 0:03:12.990 and first Chronicles. Look to the Lord and his strength. 0:03:13.030 --> 0:03:16.390 Seek his face always. Oftentimes, though, people are seeking and 0:03:16.389 --> 0:03:18.470 they don't even realize it. And yet there are all 0:03:18.510 --> 0:03:20.950 of these things that make us stop and wonder wrapped 0:03:20.950 --> 0:03:23.910 around us that just might be there, not by accident, 0:03:23.910 --> 0:03:26.470 but ways in which the Lord prods us, pokes us 0:03:26.470 --> 0:03:29.869 so that we might continue our journey of discovery of 0:03:29.910 --> 0:03:33.190 who he is, and more importantly, who we are in him. 0:03:33.470 --> 0:03:35.270 I'm so glad we're going to spend the hour together, 0:03:35.270 --> 0:03:37.830 and we're going to spend the hour with Andy Bannister. Now, 0:03:37.830 --> 0:03:40.470 I have to say, in full disclosure, I'm rather prejudicial 0:03:40.470 --> 0:03:43.110 when it comes to Andy. I absolutely love his writing. 0:03:43.110 --> 0:03:46.070 In fact, we have featured his books as truth tools 0:03:46.070 --> 0:03:48.630 on this program. That's so important. I think his writing is, 0:03:48.870 --> 0:03:51.830 and I love the way he's such a wonderful evangelist. 0:03:51.830 --> 0:03:54.550 He has a winsome way of sharing the gospel in 0:03:54.550 --> 0:03:57.490 a natural way, in a non-threatening way of picking up 0:03:57.490 --> 0:04:00.490 on those clues that already God has placed in other 0:04:00.490 --> 0:04:02.850 people's hearts. And he does that. By the way, in 0:04:02.850 --> 0:04:05.810 his newest book called Have You Ever Wondered? Now, not 0:04:05.810 --> 0:04:08.530 only is Andy an editor in the book, but he's 0:04:08.530 --> 0:04:11.610 also a contributor. But by way of background, Doctor Bannister, 0:04:11.610 --> 0:04:14.890 to be very formal and accurate is a speaker, a writer, 0:04:14.930 --> 0:04:18.450 a broadcaster, and the director of Solas. He's written several books, 0:04:18.450 --> 0:04:22.330 including The Atheist Who Didn't Exist or The Terrible Consequences 0:04:22.330 --> 0:04:25.850 of Bad Arguments. And Do Muslims and Christians Worship the 0:04:25.850 --> 0:04:29.170 Same God? He has a PhD in Islamic studies and 0:04:29.170 --> 0:04:32.570 enjoys engaging with people of all faiths, and none about 0:04:32.570 --> 0:04:35.650 life's big questions. He's married, he has two children, and 0:04:35.650 --> 0:04:38.410 he loves to hike and travel and tell dad jokes. Andy. 0:04:38.450 --> 0:04:40.730 What a joy to have you back on the program again. 0:04:40.730 --> 0:04:42.250 I should point out to our friends that you join 0:04:42.250 --> 0:04:44.529 us on the other side of the pond. At this point, 0:04:44.529 --> 0:04:46.530 you should have your fuzzy slippers on and you should 0:04:46.529 --> 0:04:48.530 be getting ready for bed, but you're staying up late 0:04:48.529 --> 0:04:51.130 to be with us and I don't take that for granted. 0:04:51.130 --> 0:04:52.210 So thank you, Andy. 0:04:52.490 --> 0:04:54.630 Well, thank you for having me back. Janet and I 0:04:54.670 --> 0:04:56.510 have got my mug of cocoa, so I've at least 0:04:56.510 --> 0:04:58.830 made a nod to the fact it's it's 10 p.m. here, 0:04:58.830 --> 0:05:01.110 but always a delight to join you, even at this hour. 0:05:01.390 --> 0:05:03.430 Oh, I thank you so much. I just absolutely love 0:05:03.430 --> 0:05:05.390 the book. So I pointed out that not only are 0:05:05.390 --> 0:05:08.150 you a co-editor, but you are also a contributor, but 0:05:08.150 --> 0:05:10.550 it really is this idea of aw, I love it, 0:05:10.550 --> 0:05:14.150 and I thought, I can't possibly encapsulate this. I have 0:05:14.150 --> 0:05:16.470 to ask you, Andy, to do it. Talking to people 0:05:16.470 --> 0:05:20.070 all over the United States, you have 28 pieces where 0:05:20.110 --> 0:05:23.750 28 questions are asked by starting with the words. Have 0:05:23.750 --> 0:05:29.150 you ever wondered how does wonder and finding God tie together? 0:05:29.150 --> 0:05:31.589 Well, Janet, this actually grows out of the last book 0:05:31.589 --> 0:05:33.670 I wrote, which we I think talked about last time 0:05:33.670 --> 0:05:36.070 I was on your show. So that was the, uh, 0:05:36.110 --> 0:05:38.630 how to Talk about Jesus without looking like an idiot book. 0:05:38.670 --> 0:05:41.310 And I taught the importance of asking questions. And one 0:05:41.310 --> 0:05:43.590 of the questions I used was that, have you ever 0:05:43.589 --> 0:05:47.390 wondered question. And it's designed when you've got friends, colleagues, 0:05:47.390 --> 0:05:49.790 family members who would say to you, I'm not into God, 0:05:49.790 --> 0:05:52.330 I'm not interested, I'm not religious. you know, that can 0:05:52.330 --> 0:05:54.770 be tough sometimes, right? But what I began to notice, 0:05:54.810 --> 0:05:57.289 my friends who are like that, I would often have 0:05:57.290 --> 0:06:02.370 things they care deeply about, you know, human rights, justice, racism, 0:06:02.410 --> 0:06:05.770 the environment, you know, the the state of politics, whatever 0:06:05.770 --> 0:06:08.330 it is, there'd be things they're passionate about and things 0:06:08.330 --> 0:06:11.970 that actually really only make sense if there is some 0:06:12.010 --> 0:06:14.290 kind of God behind the universe. The easy one to 0:06:14.290 --> 0:06:16.529 illustrate that is human rights. You know, if we're just 0:06:16.570 --> 0:06:19.969 a collection of atoms, talk of human rights really doesn't 0:06:19.970 --> 0:06:22.450 mean much, actually. Whereas if there is a God who 0:06:22.490 --> 0:06:24.690 made us in his image and imbued us with value 0:06:24.690 --> 0:06:27.690 and dignity, talk about human rights makes a lot of sense. 0:06:27.810 --> 0:06:30.409 And so you can begin to realize, to ask these questions. 0:06:30.410 --> 0:06:33.330 When our friends express a passion or an interest in something, 0:06:33.570 --> 0:06:35.170 you know, if you can learn to sort of gently 0:06:35.170 --> 0:06:37.729 wander with them, hey, I wonder why you that matters 0:06:37.730 --> 0:06:39.890 to you. I wonder if you've thought about, you know, 0:06:39.930 --> 0:06:42.330 perhaps some of the implications of that idea or where 0:06:42.330 --> 0:06:44.210 it might come from. And so it started with the 0:06:44.210 --> 0:06:47.890 idiot book, as my daughter likes to call that last book. And, uh, 0:06:48.050 --> 0:06:51.789 and then we actually my, uh, my co-editor, Gavin at Solas, 0:06:51.910 --> 0:06:53.670 and I thought, what about if we did a whole 0:06:53.670 --> 0:06:56.150 book on this space? And you say, we've got 28 0:06:56.150 --> 0:07:00.830 chapters with an introduction and a conclusion, ten, nine different authors, 0:07:00.830 --> 0:07:03.590 including a couple of Americans in there, not just Brits. 0:07:03.990 --> 0:07:05.710 And so we look at a whole range of questions, 0:07:05.750 --> 0:07:08.190 you know, have you ever wondered why justice matters? Have 0:07:08.190 --> 0:07:11.070 you ever wondered why we love stories? Have you ever 0:07:11.110 --> 0:07:15.150 wondered why we we seek love? Have you ever wondered, uh, 0:07:15.150 --> 0:07:17.350 you know why maths works. I mean, the list goes 0:07:17.350 --> 0:07:20.430 on and on and on of questions. And we found already. Janet, 0:07:20.430 --> 0:07:21.990 in the two months it's been out, it is just 0:07:21.990 --> 0:07:26.870 the easiest evangelistic giveaway. Um, because people love the whole 0:07:26.870 --> 0:07:29.790 wandering idea. People love to think and ponder and it's 0:07:29.790 --> 0:07:32.590 designed to be very gentle. Book. It doesn't get people 0:07:32.590 --> 0:07:35.070 all the way to the gospel, but it starts people 0:07:35.070 --> 0:07:38.430 thinking about spiritual questions. And my hope is it opens 0:07:38.430 --> 0:07:41.030 up conversations that could lead to the gospel. 0:07:41.310 --> 0:07:43.630 Truly. And you are an evangelist at heart. And as 0:07:43.630 --> 0:07:45.990 you say, the synergy between how to talk about Jesus 0:07:45.990 --> 0:07:48.900 without looking like an idiot and have you ever wondered, really, 0:07:48.900 --> 0:07:50.540 is a hand in a glove because you set the 0:07:50.540 --> 0:07:52.740 stage for us in How to Talk about Jesus, that 0:07:52.740 --> 0:07:54.900 we don't have to be afraid. And you do teach 0:07:54.940 --> 0:07:58.140 us the art of natural conversations. And so what you've 0:07:58.140 --> 0:08:00.220 done with, have you ever wondered, is you just pay 0:08:00.220 --> 0:08:04.300 attention to people? Everybody wonders about something. Whether it's standing 0:08:04.300 --> 0:08:06.900 in the night sky, looking up, seeing the stars, and 0:08:06.900 --> 0:08:11.620 you start thinking about the universe, eternity, the stars. I mean, 0:08:11.900 --> 0:08:14.780 the vastness of this speaks to the littleness of who 0:08:14.780 --> 0:08:17.020 we are. And it makes us wonder, why am I here? 0:08:17.020 --> 0:08:19.300 What's my purpose for living? So we pick up on 0:08:19.340 --> 0:08:22.340 that stuff that's already there. Can I ask just because 0:08:22.340 --> 0:08:26.020 there are these 28 different contributions where you pulled your 0:08:26.020 --> 0:08:27.180 contributors from? 0:08:27.540 --> 0:08:29.900 Yeah. So what we did, we one of the joys 0:08:29.900 --> 0:08:32.340 of working for Solus over the years. And I know 0:08:32.340 --> 0:08:35.819 you've also had Solus founder David Robertson on your show 0:08:35.860 --> 0:08:38.339 in the past. So one of the joys of of 0:08:38.380 --> 0:08:41.620 Solus over the years is being a small organization. We've 0:08:41.620 --> 0:08:44.780 had to actually, just by design, have to use other 0:08:44.780 --> 0:08:47.920 writers and contributors and speakers and we do events. So 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.800 that's given us over 16 years this really vast network, 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:53.080 actually mainly in the UK, but also some in the 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:55.680 in the US as well, are people who've written and contributed. 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.400 So when we came up with the vision for the book, um, 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:01.040 you know, Gavin Matthews, my co-writer, and I sat down 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:03.440 and went, okay, basically, who would be the dream team? Janet, 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.120 you know, if we could, you know, assemble eight other 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:07.840 people to write with us, who would it be? And 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.800 in most cases, we got that dream team because we 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:12.840 had those relationships. We reached out to people who we 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:15.800 thought would be great. And, uh, and God was really good. 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.360 We ended up with this amazing team of men and women, uh, 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.240 writing on these vast range of topics. 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:22.800 And it ends up being an amazing book as a result. 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:24.560 By the way, a couple of thoughts quickly as we 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.040 go to break. You know, I've been following Christ for 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.240 a long period of time, and it was wonderful for 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.439 me because it just affirmed how much God loves me 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.880 and the ways in which he's put those clues out 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.600 there to let me know that he's there. But also, 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.560 it's a marvelous book for evangelization. So I want our 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.080 friends particularly to understand that because this is a great 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.080 way to have that conversation. And oh, by the way, 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.700 for the record, you are praying about having those kinds 0:09:47.700 --> 0:09:50.219 of conversations, aren't you? I hope so. That's what this 0:09:50.220 --> 0:09:52.220 program is designed to get you to do out there 0:09:52.220 --> 0:09:57.460 back after this. Have you ever wondered why music moves 0:09:57.460 --> 0:09:59.700 us so deeply, or why beauty takes our breath away? 0:09:59.940 --> 0:10:02.220 My Truth Tool this month is a thought provoking book 0:10:02.220 --> 0:10:04.819 that explores those moments of wonder we all encounter. It's 0:10:04.820 --> 0:10:08.020 called Have You ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of 0:10:08.020 --> 0:10:11.340 life point to the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your 0:10:11.380 --> 0:10:13.020 copy of. Have you ever wondered when you give a 0:10:13.059 --> 0:10:16.739 gift of any amount to in the market, call eight 7758. 0:10:16.780 --> 0:10:20.260 That's eight 7758 or go to in the market with 0:10:20.260 --> 0:10:26.460 Janet Parshall. Doctor Andy Bannister has another fabulous book out. 0:10:26.460 --> 0:10:30.020 This one's called Have You Ever Wondered? Subtitled Finding the 0:10:30.059 --> 0:10:34.699 Everyday Clues to Meaning, purpose, and Spirituality. And it's a 0:10:34.700 --> 0:10:37.939 marvelous book that just helps us with ease. Connect where 0:10:37.940 --> 0:10:40.780 people are at because that wondering is there already. I 0:10:40.780 --> 0:10:43.660 think God fingerprinted it in our heart and what these 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:47.200 28 contributions do in this book is get you to 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.400 listen to the answers to wondering questions. Now, Andy's not 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:52.720 just the co-editor, by the way, but he's a contributor. 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:54.000 And so I'm going to talk about some of the 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:57.040 pieces that he authored as well. But again, Andy has 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.240 taught us through the years to how to be very 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.200 effective as evangelists for Christ and not to be fearful 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:03.920 not to think. You have to have a multiplicity of 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.240 initials after your name, not to think that somehow that 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.840 you're going to be rejected. Therefore you're already committing a 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.200 foul before you even start. The directive is to go 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.480 and tell that our heart should so break. For those 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:17.680 who don't yet know Jesus Christ, that whether or not 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.160 we suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous criticism, we 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:22.760 still go and tell. But Andy has taught us how 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:24.840 to do it. Where people lay down their arms. You 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:28.200 disarm people by asking them questions like, what do you 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:30.079 wonder about? And then we're going to fill in some 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:31.680 of the blanks on some of those things. But before 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:33.960 I dive in and I was thinking about this today 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.559 because you your your forte, you're so much of your 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:40.080 academic preparation was dealing in Islamic studies. That's what you 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:43.260 actually got your PhD in. What drew you to that? 0:11:43.260 --> 0:11:45.900 And it seems to me I can understand the baby 0:11:45.900 --> 0:11:48.980 step between getting that degree and having a heart for evangelism. 0:11:49.220 --> 0:11:50.740 But you could have just been in the world of 0:11:50.740 --> 0:11:53.500 academia and done nothing but teach at college campuses about 0:11:53.500 --> 0:11:58.460 Islamic studies, but instead you're this wonderfully enthusiastic evangelist. Where's 0:11:58.460 --> 0:11:59.180 the linkage? 0:11:59.780 --> 0:12:03.020 Well, the linkage, uh, Janet was back in the late 1990s. Uh, 0:12:03.020 --> 0:12:05.900 I got invited, uh, by a friend of mine, uh, 0:12:05.900 --> 0:12:08.220 up to a place in London, England, called Speaker's Corner, 0:12:08.340 --> 0:12:10.380 which was part of one of our big parks in London, 0:12:10.380 --> 0:12:13.100 where you can stand on a ladder or a soapbox, 0:12:13.100 --> 0:12:15.260 talk about anything. You get a crowd. And he was 0:12:15.260 --> 0:12:17.780 using it to preach to the many Muslims, uh, who 0:12:17.780 --> 0:12:20.500 were coming to Speaker's Corner to, to preach Islam. And 0:12:20.500 --> 0:12:22.620 my friend Jay invited me up to come and watch 0:12:22.620 --> 0:12:24.500 what was going on. But when I got up to 0:12:24.500 --> 0:12:27.980 Speaker's Corner, he produced a second, uh, stepladder to preach on, 0:12:28.020 --> 0:12:29.580 and I said, why have you got two ladders? He went, well, 0:12:29.580 --> 0:12:31.340 you're going to stand next to me and preach. And 0:12:31.340 --> 0:12:33.140 I went, oh, I've never preached on the street before. 0:12:33.179 --> 0:12:35.540 He went, oh, it's easy anyway. Any fool can do it. 0:12:35.580 --> 0:12:37.700 I said, I've never, never talked to Muslims before. Oh, 0:12:37.700 --> 0:12:40.260 they're easy. Any idiot could do it. Well, it turns out, Janet, 0:12:40.300 --> 0:12:42.650 he was wrong on both counts. Because I failed utterly, 0:12:43.250 --> 0:12:47.449 because my new Muslim friends had questions and objections. But 0:12:47.450 --> 0:12:49.610 I kind of got the bug. And so I went home, 0:12:49.650 --> 0:12:52.250 sort of my tail between my legs, but started reading 0:12:52.530 --> 0:12:54.930 and working to get the answers to their questions. Came 0:12:54.929 --> 0:12:57.809 back two weeks later and they had new questions. So 0:12:57.809 --> 0:13:00.570 we repeated this exercise. Um, but over the next three 0:13:00.570 --> 0:13:02.370 months or so, I would go to Speakers Corner. On 0:13:02.370 --> 0:13:05.050 the weekends, I would read, uh, what we might now 0:13:05.090 --> 0:13:08.330 call apologetics books, dealing with with the reasons for the 0:13:08.330 --> 0:13:11.530 Christian faith, um, and what that did over those 3 0:13:11.530 --> 0:13:13.089 to 4 months. And then actually, I stayed for a 0:13:13.090 --> 0:13:15.170 few more years after I really mastered the kind of 0:13:15.210 --> 0:13:17.969 subject was. It gave me a love of public proclamation 0:13:17.970 --> 0:13:21.290 of the gospel, but that was woven in with real conversations. 0:13:21.530 --> 0:13:23.370 So I think that was really important to me. I 0:13:23.370 --> 0:13:25.810 didn't sort of go into academia first and then try 0:13:25.809 --> 0:13:29.130 and apply it afterwards. The two just went lockstep for me. 0:13:29.650 --> 0:13:33.210 That eventually led to going to seminary. Um, I hadn't 0:13:33.210 --> 0:13:35.650 gone to university before I was 28, uh, when I 0:13:35.690 --> 0:13:38.010 finally kind of went, uh, and then off the back 0:13:38.010 --> 0:13:40.110 of that did the PhD. But you're right. When I 0:13:40.110 --> 0:13:41.990 went in to do the PhD for the first year, Janet, 0:13:41.990 --> 0:13:43.790 I thought, well, my career path is going to be 0:13:43.790 --> 0:13:47.190 teaching at a university or a seminary somewhere like that. 0:13:47.190 --> 0:13:49.670 But I very quickly discovered, you know, I get bored 0:13:49.710 --> 0:13:54.310 unless I'm applying this stuff. So, um, my, my PhD 0:13:54.350 --> 0:13:56.309 took me seven years because I couldn't keep my backside 0:13:56.309 --> 0:13:57.910 on the seat because I was out sort of doing 0:13:57.910 --> 0:14:01.230 ministry and stuff. And actually my PhD supervisor, who was 0:14:01.230 --> 0:14:04.429 brilliant missions background himself, was he's like, Andy, I think 0:14:04.429 --> 0:14:06.870 you need to think about how you might apply this 0:14:06.910 --> 0:14:10.790 into actually evangelism and frontline stuff. You know, you're good 0:14:10.790 --> 0:14:12.830 at the academic stuff, but actually you're going to get 0:14:12.830 --> 0:14:15.150 really bored very quickly. And he was dead, right. So 0:14:15.150 --> 0:14:17.309 I now love I love teaching, I do stuff at 0:14:17.309 --> 0:14:20.350 universities quite often. I'll do guest lecturing Janet. But my 0:14:20.350 --> 0:14:25.150 passion is actually engaging people either who think differently Muslims, atheists, 0:14:25.190 --> 0:14:29.270 skeptics or helping Christians engage them. So yeah, I'm a 0:14:29.270 --> 0:14:32.150 big believer in how we can take good research and 0:14:32.150 --> 0:14:34.910 good academic ideas and take it down to a really 0:14:34.910 --> 0:14:37.430 popular level where people can actually apply it. 0:14:37.690 --> 0:14:40.210 I just love that. And forgive me for lingering, but 0:14:40.210 --> 0:14:42.290 I think I must, because I think this is a 0:14:42.290 --> 0:14:46.250 conversation not had enough in the church today. Capital C universal. 0:14:46.290 --> 0:14:48.610 I'm one of those people who grew up where evangelism 0:14:48.610 --> 0:14:51.730 was just taught, when from the time I came to 0:14:51.730 --> 0:14:54.650 the Lord and I came to him at six. Growing forward, 0:14:54.690 --> 0:14:57.090 the evangelism was just part of the air we breathed. 0:14:57.090 --> 0:14:59.090 We'd walk out of the church and he'd say, you're 0:14:59.130 --> 0:15:00.890 now entering your mission field. I mean, that was the 0:15:00.890 --> 0:15:03.810 way I grew up. But now there seems to be 0:15:03.850 --> 0:15:06.050 a kind of reticence, at least in the United States. 0:15:06.050 --> 0:15:07.970 And of course, not all churches. Some are very much 0:15:08.010 --> 0:15:11.490 mission minded and evangelism minded, but others are not. They're 0:15:11.490 --> 0:15:14.410 very quiet. They're passive. We'll just love people in, you know, 0:15:14.450 --> 0:15:16.290 we're going to find all kinds of razzle dazzle ways 0:15:16.290 --> 0:15:18.170 to get him into the church. And, you know, that'll 0:15:18.210 --> 0:15:19.810 be a great way to hold their attention. And then 0:15:19.810 --> 0:15:22.410 maybe we can start talking to them about Jesus. But 0:15:22.450 --> 0:15:24.730 hitting the streets, if I can use the phrase that 0:15:24.730 --> 0:15:28.890 way and sharing it, it's it's it's lackluster now in 0:15:28.890 --> 0:15:32.170 the United States. Give me the atmospherics in the UK. 0:15:32.210 --> 0:15:34.410 Is it the same? And if it is, what do 0:15:34.410 --> 0:15:37.310 we need to revitalize that? Because as I see this, yes, 0:15:37.310 --> 0:15:40.350 there's a specific gift of evangelism, but all of us 0:15:40.350 --> 0:15:42.510 are supposed to go and tell. So how do we 0:15:42.510 --> 0:15:43.750 reinvigorate that? 0:15:43.790 --> 0:15:46.430 Yeah, I mean, very similar here in the UK. There's 0:15:46.430 --> 0:15:48.870 some wonderful churches doing doing great stuff. I mean, I 0:15:48.870 --> 0:15:51.550 am blessed to go to, to attend a really missional 0:15:51.550 --> 0:15:54.870 church locally doing wonderful, wonderful stuff. But I think a 0:15:54.870 --> 0:15:56.710 lot of churches are struggling and I think where they're 0:15:56.710 --> 0:16:00.150 struggling is Christians are afraid. You know, the big issues 0:16:00.150 --> 0:16:02.910 and big battles in culture. Same in the US as 0:16:02.910 --> 0:16:05.190 in the UK. I think Christians are afraid. What if 0:16:05.190 --> 0:16:06.630 I try and share my faith at work and I 0:16:06.630 --> 0:16:09.950 get accused of being transphobic or whatever, and that fear 0:16:09.990 --> 0:16:12.750 causes them to back down? Often Christians don't know our 0:16:12.750 --> 0:16:14.990 own faith, so we don't feel really equipped. What if 0:16:14.990 --> 0:16:17.590 I share my faith and someone asks me a tough question? 0:16:17.590 --> 0:16:20.070 And then the more challenging one. Sometimes we've adopted this 0:16:20.070 --> 0:16:23.670 very comfortable Western Christianity, quite frankly, where everything's comfortable, church 0:16:23.670 --> 0:16:27.750 is comfortable, everything's comfortable. So don't make it uncomfortable. By 0:16:27.750 --> 0:16:30.510 having conversations with my colleagues, I just sort of end 0:16:30.550 --> 0:16:34.510 up privatising my faith. And that can happen quite subtly. 0:16:34.550 --> 0:16:36.250 What I think can be really helpful is to be 0:16:36.250 --> 0:16:39.170 thinking about and you mentioned prayer earlier. So important praying 0:16:39.170 --> 0:16:42.010 about where are the places where God might just gently 0:16:42.010 --> 0:16:44.810 challenge you or less, more, perhaps more firmly challenge you 0:16:44.850 --> 0:16:47.010 to just go slightly beyond your comfort zones. You don't 0:16:47.010 --> 0:16:48.690 all need to go to Speaker's Corner and stand on 0:16:48.690 --> 0:16:50.970 a ladder and preach to Muslims. That's the wrong lesson 0:16:50.970 --> 0:16:54.010 from what I shared. But it might be God is 0:16:54.010 --> 0:16:55.890 calling you to perhaps just put your head above the 0:16:55.890 --> 0:16:59.250 parapet at work, or perhaps, you know, invite a neighbour 0:16:59.250 --> 0:17:01.250 round for a meal and find a way over that 0:17:01.290 --> 0:17:03.410 to sort of talk about Christ. Maybe it might be 0:17:03.410 --> 0:17:05.729 loving people and doing some great act of service in 0:17:05.730 --> 0:17:08.090 your community. But when people ask why you're doing it, 0:17:08.130 --> 0:17:09.890 you don't just sort of fluff it. You say, I'm 0:17:09.890 --> 0:17:11.889 doing it because I want to demonstrate the love of Christ. 0:17:11.890 --> 0:17:14.209 All of us have our different style of evangelism, but 0:17:14.210 --> 0:17:17.210 I think going out from the church into the outside 0:17:17.290 --> 0:17:18.530 has to lie at the heart of it. 0:17:19.330 --> 0:17:22.130 Amen and amen. Doctor Andy Bannister is with us. By 0:17:22.130 --> 0:17:24.130 the way, let me point out again, this dear man 0:17:24.130 --> 0:17:26.129 is joining us on the other side of the pond 0:17:26.130 --> 0:17:29.050 from the UK. It's much later at night, and yet 0:17:29.050 --> 0:17:31.010 I'm so very grateful he stayed up to be with 0:17:31.010 --> 0:17:32.930 us so we can talk about his newest book. Have 0:17:32.930 --> 0:17:37.399 you ever wondered finding the everyday clues to meaning, purpose 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.800 and spirituality? 28 separate little gems in this book that 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.600 get you thinking about the ways in which God draws 0:17:44.600 --> 0:18:01.760 us through our wandering back after this. Doctor Andy Bannister 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:05.160 joins us from the UK. Much later at night than 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.119 it is here in Washington DC, and we're so grateful 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.320 he's with us because he has another fabulous brand new book, 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:13.719 The Core. The heart of this, his passion. It's the 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.080 fire in his bones, to quote Jeremiah, is really evangelism. 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.639 And so he's put together, along with several other contributors, 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.760 a marvelous book called Have You Ever Wondered? Finding the 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.080 everyday clues to meaning, purpose, and spirituality. It is a 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.160 fabulous book, by the way, just to reaffirm how much 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.020 God loves you and how he left clues everywhere so 0:18:32.020 --> 0:18:34.220 that you could find him all the while, in truth, 0:18:34.220 --> 0:18:36.619 he was pursuing you. And for those of you listening 0:18:36.619 --> 0:18:38.979 who haven't figured out this God thing, who don't know 0:18:38.980 --> 0:18:41.820 who this Jesus is, let me recommend this book to you. 0:18:41.820 --> 0:18:44.140 This would be a wonderful place for you to start, 0:18:44.140 --> 0:18:46.300 and to look at some of the wonder questions that 0:18:46.300 --> 0:18:48.300 are put out there, and there are 28 of them 0:18:48.340 --> 0:18:51.420 for your consideration. Andy is not only the the co-editor 0:18:51.420 --> 0:18:53.580 of the book, but he's also a contributor. And the 0:18:53.580 --> 0:18:55.379 rest of his life, when he's not writing and speaking, 0:18:55.380 --> 0:18:58.260 he's director of Solas, which is a marvelous group. It 0:18:58.260 --> 0:19:01.619 deals with evangelism and training based in Scotland, but it 0:19:01.619 --> 0:19:04.300 covers the entire UK. And you'll know that our dear friend, 0:19:04.300 --> 0:19:08.060 Doctor David Robertson or David Robertson, who now serves in 0:19:08.060 --> 0:19:10.500 New South Wales in Australia, joins us on a regular 0:19:10.500 --> 0:19:13.060 basis where we talk about his perspective on the world 0:19:13.060 --> 0:19:15.020 around him. So one of the things you did, and 0:19:15.020 --> 0:19:16.699 you put it as the very first chapter, which I 0:19:16.700 --> 0:19:19.419 thought was interesting and not by happenstance. You start with 0:19:19.420 --> 0:19:22.060 the first wonder question. Have you ever wondered why we 0:19:22.060 --> 0:19:25.460 long for happiness? And I loved the way you looked 0:19:25.460 --> 0:19:27.140 at this, that all of us have a kind of 0:19:27.140 --> 0:19:31.679 appetite for this temporal Satisfaction of whatever it is we 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.920 hunger for. Talk to me about this because again, you 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.040 talk about the the universality of the human experience. And 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.000 that's what I love, the subtext really, of. Have you 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:43.320 ever wondered is these are experiences common to every single 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.600 one of us, which therefore makes it a marvelous starting 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.560 point when we're talking to people about the transcendent truths 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:49.160 of God. 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:51.840 Well, that's right. And I think the one of the 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:53.520 other things we tried to do, Janet, as well, is 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.280 you don't need to read the book in order, was 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:57.159 the other fun thing. So, you know, if you give 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.280 this to a friend, you can leave through and go, oh, 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:01.480 that intrigues me or that intrigues me. But yeah. So 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.200 my my first chapter was happiness and I, I was 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.560 struck by a number of a number of conversations I've had, 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.600 you know, which boil down to people sort of telling 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:12.080 you what it is they're doing to try and be 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.199 try and be happy, you know, whether they're looking for 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:17.480 happiness in their job or their educational, educational career or 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.760 following their sports team or whatever it is, happiness really is, 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:24.200 you know, the universal human pursuit. And then the sort 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:26.720 of stats pick this up. I mean, Google every year, 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:28.199 you know, tell us the data. I think they call 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.620 it the Google zeitgeist on, you know what people searched 0:20:30.619 --> 0:20:33.740 for that year and questions around happiness always come up 0:20:33.740 --> 0:20:36.500 really high. People literally put, how can I be happy 0:20:36.619 --> 0:20:40.820 into Google? And that chapter really explores the fact that firstly, 0:20:40.820 --> 0:20:44.260 it's intriguing why we're like that. You know, in the 0:20:44.300 --> 0:20:46.619 animal kingdom, you know, our animal cousins seem to be 0:20:46.619 --> 0:20:50.540 quite happy just feeding, fleeing, fighting and reproducing. Um, you know, 0:20:50.580 --> 0:20:53.740 squirrels don't sit around having existential crises about whether they're 0:20:53.740 --> 0:20:57.260 happy or not. Um, but then humans, we have this 0:20:57.260 --> 0:20:59.580 tendency to look for happiness in things that don't quite 0:20:59.580 --> 0:21:02.219 satisfy us. So we're unusual in the animal kingdom and 0:21:02.220 --> 0:21:04.379 that sex and food are not enough. They are for 0:21:04.380 --> 0:21:07.379 most animals. They're not for human beings. We want we 0:21:07.380 --> 0:21:08.939 want more than that. And if we just try and 0:21:08.940 --> 0:21:11.780 make life about those things, those things will let us down. Um, 0:21:11.820 --> 0:21:14.939 sometimes we try and find happiness and success, you know, 0:21:14.940 --> 0:21:17.219 whether it's achievement at university or the sports field or 0:21:17.220 --> 0:21:20.500 at work. But the problem is that's deeply, deeply insecure 0:21:20.540 --> 0:21:24.260 because eventually somebody will join your sports team, your university 0:21:24.260 --> 0:21:26.619 or your workplace who performs better than you. Do you 0:21:26.619 --> 0:21:28.240 know you will hit the top of the roller coaster 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:30.359 and come down the other side. And even if you 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:32.560 try and find happiness and things like your family and 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.960 your kids and those things quite noble pursuits, well, eventually 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:37.680 those two come to an end. The kids will grow 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:39.359 up and leave home. You know, we have a name 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:41.800 for that. We call that the empty nest syndrome. And 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:44.320 that chapter just really plays with the idea of going 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:46.560 that kind of, sort of pyramid as you work up. 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:51.359 Could there be some source of happiness out there that 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:54.159 actually is not going to ultimately let us down? And 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:56.040 I think from memory, I come in to land on that. 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:57.800 You know that saying of Jesus, I've come that you 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:00.800 might have life and have it to the full. And 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:03.520 I just wonder, therefore, if that's something that might just 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:06.160 be worth thinking about in terms of, you know, that 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:09.879 that support for a greater, a greater framework for happiness 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:11.439 than just the things in front of us that will 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:13.840 ultimately let us down. So it's, again, a gentle nudge 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:16.120 towards the gospel doesn't get you all the way by 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:19.800 a long way. But I found, you know, that conversation 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.600 around happiness is a great conversation for beginning spiritual conversations. 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:26.980 Yes. And, you know, Doctor Francis Schaeffer talked about this 0:22:26.980 --> 0:22:29.700 years ago. He talked about pre evangelism. He talked about 0:22:29.700 --> 0:22:31.900 working on the outside of the culture and moving inside. 0:22:31.900 --> 0:22:33.939 And I think so often we think we just have 0:22:33.940 --> 0:22:36.740 to go right for the bullseye. But you know it's relational. 0:22:36.740 --> 0:22:40.740 So start on the outside and it's non-threatening. It's conversational. 0:22:40.980 --> 0:22:43.139 Um there's a letting down of the guard and you 0:22:43.140 --> 0:22:45.340 can start having some of these conversations. What I found 0:22:45.340 --> 0:22:47.060 is interesting, and I should point out that part of 0:22:47.060 --> 0:22:51.020 your expertise is also philosophy, not just Islamic studies. So 0:22:51.020 --> 0:22:54.139 you write about the four levels of happiness that Aristotle 0:22:54.500 --> 0:22:57.140 writes about, which I thought was fascinating. And I found 0:22:57.140 --> 0:22:59.540 that number two, which is the comparison about having more, 0:22:59.580 --> 0:23:01.580 being better than the next person. I thought, I think 0:23:01.580 --> 0:23:03.739 I remember something about that written with a pen of 0:23:03.740 --> 0:23:06.580 fire and a tablet of stone and a mountain somewhere. 0:23:06.580 --> 0:23:09.660 So this idea of covetousness goes all the way back. 0:23:09.660 --> 0:23:11.940 But the last landing point, and the one you just 0:23:11.940 --> 0:23:14.820 alluded to is even Aristotle says, in the end, it's 0:23:14.820 --> 0:23:16.459 not about you. It's something you're going to have to 0:23:16.460 --> 0:23:18.460 find outside of yourself. 0:23:18.500 --> 0:23:20.260 It's got to be a source outside of yourself. Yeah. 0:23:20.260 --> 0:23:22.379 That's right. And just a hat tip, by the way, 0:23:22.420 --> 0:23:24.650 that idea of Aristotle, I got that from a friend 0:23:24.650 --> 0:23:26.930 of mine in Canada called John Patrick, who was who 0:23:27.050 --> 0:23:29.929 for years. He's a medic. He told me stories. He 0:23:29.930 --> 0:23:33.609 would have wonderful conversations with fellow passengers on airplanes, simply 0:23:33.609 --> 0:23:35.729 by asking them about their life and listening to their 0:23:35.730 --> 0:23:37.170 life story, and then he'd look at them and smile 0:23:37.170 --> 0:23:40.330 and say, so, are you happy? And that question would 0:23:40.330 --> 0:23:43.170 open up. And then whatever they answered, John would say, 0:23:43.170 --> 0:23:45.410 did you know that the ancient thinkers, like Aristotle, thought 0:23:45.410 --> 0:23:48.369 there were actually four levels of happiness? Or people are 0:23:48.369 --> 0:23:50.770 always going to go, oh, really? What are they? And 0:23:50.770 --> 0:23:54.490 he was off. So it's a really clever idea, actually, 0:23:54.530 --> 0:23:57.490 of playing with that word happiness, because I think it's 0:23:57.490 --> 0:23:59.369 a word that everybody uses, but no one actually knows 0:23:59.369 --> 0:24:02.050 what they mean by it. And so again, we can, 0:24:02.050 --> 0:24:05.290 we can wonder with, with people in a very non-threatening way. 0:24:05.690 --> 0:24:07.970 But you kept it beautifully when you go to that verse. 0:24:07.970 --> 0:24:10.170 And I think we love that verse because it tells 0:24:10.170 --> 0:24:12.210 us how rich our relationship is with Christ. I've come 0:24:12.210 --> 0:24:14.730 that you might have life and have it abundantly. So 0:24:14.730 --> 0:24:17.970 if it's outside of our our selves and Jesus promises 0:24:17.970 --> 0:24:20.490 an abundant life, and what could make you happier than 0:24:20.490 --> 0:24:23.550 an abundant life? Well, that life is found in Jesus. 0:24:23.550 --> 0:24:25.430 So as you say, it isn't doesn't go right for 0:24:25.430 --> 0:24:27.669 the core, but begins to plant those seeds, which I 0:24:27.670 --> 0:24:30.350 think is outstanding. I'm going to examine some more of 0:24:30.350 --> 0:24:33.149 the wonder questions that Andy raised, but remember, there's a 0:24:33.150 --> 0:24:35.270 total of 28 in the book. I'm not going to 0:24:35.270 --> 0:24:38.389 get anywhere near the 28. And that's good, because if 0:24:38.390 --> 0:24:39.990 it gets you to get a copy of the book, 0:24:39.990 --> 0:24:43.990 to read it for yourself and wonder, fabulous. Remember, even 0:24:43.990 --> 0:24:46.109 if you know Christ, great book of encouragement. And if 0:24:46.109 --> 0:24:49.550 you don't, wonderful place to start. Have you ever wondered 0:24:49.550 --> 0:24:57.310 back after this? The questions that matter most often come 0:24:57.310 --> 0:25:00.030 while watching a sunset, or listening to music, or looking 0:25:00.030 --> 0:25:02.669 into the night sky. That's why I've chosen. Have you 0:25:02.670 --> 0:25:05.830 ever wondered, is this month's truth tool? God draws us 0:25:05.830 --> 0:25:08.110 to himself through a sense of awe and wonder, and 0:25:08.109 --> 0:25:10.350 this book will help you discover how. As for your 0:25:10.350 --> 0:25:12.149 copy of have you ever wondered when you give a 0:25:12.190 --> 0:25:16.190 gift of any amount in the market, call eight 7758. 0:25:16.230 --> 0:25:19.790 That's eight 7758 or go to in the market with 0:25:19.790 --> 0:25:25.330 Janet Parshall. Always, always, always a terrific joy to be 0:25:25.369 --> 0:25:28.130 able to spend time with. Doctor Andy Bannister joins us 0:25:28.130 --> 0:25:30.290 from the UK. We're so glad he's with us again. 0:25:30.290 --> 0:25:33.010 He's got another excellent book. This one is called Have 0:25:33.010 --> 0:25:37.090 You Ever Wondered finding the everyday clues to meaning, purpose 0:25:37.090 --> 0:25:40.649 and spirituality. Doctor Bannister is a speaker, a writer, a 0:25:40.650 --> 0:25:43.850 broadcaster and director of soulless. We're very familiar with soulless 0:25:43.890 --> 0:25:46.770 on this program. He's written several books, including The Atheist 0:25:46.810 --> 0:25:50.170 Who Didn't Exist or The Terrible Consequences of Bad Arguments. 0:25:50.170 --> 0:25:53.170 And do Muslims and Christians worship the same God coming 0:25:53.170 --> 0:25:55.649 from a man who has a PhD in Islamic studies? 0:25:55.850 --> 0:25:59.130 So in have you ever wondered? There are 28 contributions 0:25:59.130 --> 0:26:02.810 there wonder questions and they really are the the reminder, 0:26:02.810 --> 0:26:05.490 if you will, that God does fingerprint us, the Blaise 0:26:05.490 --> 0:26:07.290 Pascal that resides in the heart of every man, a 0:26:07.290 --> 0:26:11.090 God shaped void, and only a personal relationship with him 0:26:11.090 --> 0:26:14.929 will satisfy. So you realize these wonder questions aren't by happenstance. 0:26:14.930 --> 0:26:17.210 So here's another one. Have you ever wondered, and this 0:26:17.210 --> 0:26:19.550 is one of the contributions by Andy. Have you ever 0:26:19.550 --> 0:26:22.590 wondered why the best stories are about good and evil? 0:26:22.790 --> 0:26:25.149 You know, that's why fairy tales, many of them, by 0:26:25.150 --> 0:26:27.270 the way, the classics written by people who were professing 0:26:27.270 --> 0:26:30.950 Christians because they were morality tales good triumphed over evil. 0:26:30.950 --> 0:26:32.710 And there's something in her heart that said, that's what 0:26:32.710 --> 0:26:34.389 we long for. That's what we hope for. That's what 0:26:34.390 --> 0:26:38.350 we'd like to see. But there's something compelling about these stories. 0:26:38.350 --> 0:26:40.830 And if they're stories, is there a war against good 0:26:40.830 --> 0:26:42.790 and evil in the universe? And if there is, how 0:26:42.790 --> 0:26:44.790 do I recognize? And on whose side am I mean? 0:26:44.830 --> 0:26:48.550 It begins to ask a panoply of other questions here. 0:26:48.550 --> 0:26:51.350 So go I got tears in my eyes because you 0:26:51.350 --> 0:26:53.670 talked about Dickens, and I thought that that was so 0:26:53.670 --> 0:26:58.190 very powerful. Um, when you recognize this idea of literally 0:26:58.430 --> 0:27:01.430 laying down your life for your friend, and stories do 0:27:01.430 --> 0:27:03.750 have a way of reminding us about good and evil. 0:27:03.750 --> 0:27:06.790 So why is it that we resonate? It isn't by happenstance. 0:27:06.790 --> 0:27:09.390 Somebody didn't say, this is an interesting genre of literature. 0:27:09.390 --> 0:27:12.190 It looks like it might be successful. It reflects what's 0:27:12.230 --> 0:27:14.190 already in the human heart. Why is it there? 0:27:15.230 --> 0:27:18.850 Well, boy, I love this chapter. Janet's My Fate was 0:27:18.850 --> 0:27:21.130 my favorite chapter to write because I love I love 0:27:21.130 --> 0:27:25.929 fairy tales, I love fantasy, I am a massive Tolkien, uh, 0:27:26.050 --> 0:27:27.890 kind of kind of fan. I, you know, read Lord 0:27:27.890 --> 0:27:30.450 of the rings every year. And I noticed a few 0:27:30.450 --> 0:27:32.690 years ago it occurred to me, as I was on 0:27:32.690 --> 0:27:34.810 my sort of annual read through, of going, it's interesting, 0:27:34.810 --> 0:27:38.330 isn't it? The stories that have the greatest longevity have 0:27:38.330 --> 0:27:40.649 this common theme of being about good and evil. So 0:27:40.690 --> 0:27:43.929 Tolkien is an obvious one. Um, Harry Potter for more 0:27:43.930 --> 0:27:46.050 a more recent example. I don't just mean, you know 0:27:46.090 --> 0:27:48.330 what the latest Hollywood blockbuster is, the stories that are 0:27:48.330 --> 0:27:52.730 being told and retold and retold and retold fairy tales, uh, 0:27:52.730 --> 0:27:54.490 you've mentioned and then even, by the way, when you 0:27:54.490 --> 0:27:58.330 get the dysfunctional stuff like George Orwell's 1984, you're not 0:27:58.330 --> 0:28:00.890 supposed to celebrate Big Brother winning. You're supposed to get 0:28:00.890 --> 0:28:03.490 to the end of that and go, that is so depressing. 0:28:03.490 --> 0:28:05.770 That's not the way it's supposed to be. And the 0:28:05.770 --> 0:28:08.450 problem is, of course, if we live in a godless universe, 0:28:08.450 --> 0:28:12.050 the mystery is, where did we get this idea that 0:28:12.050 --> 0:28:15.650 good triumphs over evil? Because if there is no God 0:28:15.690 --> 0:28:18.640 behind this universe. The answer is it doesn't. It's. It's 0:28:18.640 --> 0:28:22.800 a lie. Ultimately chaos wins. Death has the final word, 0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:25.080 and everything ends in the heat. Death at the end 0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:27.720 of the universe. And the only, you know, the only 0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:30.000 sort of story that all of us are playing, playing 0:28:30.040 --> 0:28:32.080 a role in is the story that each, each human 0:28:32.080 --> 0:28:35.639 being is part of. You know, born, uh, suffered and died. 0:28:35.880 --> 0:28:38.600 But we don't believe that. So either we're deluded in 0:28:38.600 --> 0:28:42.000 telling ourselves these stories, or they are a reflection of 0:28:42.000 --> 0:28:44.600 a greater reality. And of course, the Tolkien fan in 0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:47.560 me would say, you know, Tolkien wrote a famous essay 0:28:47.600 --> 0:28:50.800 on fairy tales in which he makes this point that 0:28:50.800 --> 0:28:55.880 these stories reflect the greatest story, the true story, and 0:28:55.880 --> 0:28:59.400 it's reflected and refracted in the little stories that we 0:28:59.400 --> 0:29:02.600 ourselves tell. So again, you can start from the stories 0:29:02.600 --> 0:29:05.680 that your friends love and go, hey, why did you 0:29:05.680 --> 0:29:07.520 enjoy that movie? Well, it was great because the good 0:29:07.520 --> 0:29:09.840 guy won, the good guys won, the bad guy got 0:29:09.880 --> 0:29:12.680 beaten up and dumped and, you know, lost. Why is that? 0:29:12.720 --> 0:29:15.020 Why do we love those kind of stories? And you 0:29:15.020 --> 0:29:18.380 can with a bit of practice, connect that to the gospel, 0:29:18.380 --> 0:29:19.900 or you just give your friend this book right and 0:29:19.900 --> 0:29:20.740 give them chapter three. 0:29:22.660 --> 0:29:24.220 Either way would work just fine. 0:29:24.260 --> 0:29:25.300 It would work just fine. 0:29:25.500 --> 0:29:28.820 You know, I find it. I love this idea because, uh, 0:29:28.940 --> 0:29:30.620 you were talking about Tolkien. I'll talk about one of 0:29:30.620 --> 0:29:32.860 his friends, and that's Lewis. When Lewis talked about the 0:29:32.860 --> 0:29:35.700 great myth, he was talking about the fact that there 0:29:35.700 --> 0:29:38.580 is that story. It is the story of good triumphing 0:29:38.580 --> 0:29:41.860 over evil. So there's something that draws us to that 0:29:41.860 --> 0:29:45.500 story because we want good to triumph over evil. But 0:29:45.500 --> 0:29:47.620 let me throw in a name we used earlier as well, 0:29:47.660 --> 0:29:49.900 because I love this. Because I think that the aesthetic 0:29:49.900 --> 0:29:51.900 is one of the paths for us to start on 0:29:51.900 --> 0:29:55.020 our journey toward God. And certainly the stories are a 0:29:55.020 --> 0:29:58.500 part of that aesthetic journey. So, um, Francis Shaver talked 0:29:58.500 --> 0:30:01.740 about the devolution of art and how it was reflected 0:30:01.740 --> 0:30:05.500 once you moved away from having a biblical worldview and 0:30:05.500 --> 0:30:08.740 humanism took over, the ideas of good and evil began 0:30:08.740 --> 0:30:12.180 to dissipate. And now we have this juxtaposition where oftentimes 0:30:12.180 --> 0:30:16.960 evil triumphs over good. Or there's such a blurred line 0:30:17.000 --> 0:30:21.240 of distinction between good and evil. You walked away unsatisfied, 0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:23.840 but yet it's a hallmark if you take Schafer's perspective 0:30:23.840 --> 0:30:26.160 on this, and I do that. This is what happens 0:30:26.160 --> 0:30:30.200 when you've supplanted a biblical worldview with a humanist worldview. 0:30:30.200 --> 0:30:32.160 It's vacuous in the end, and so you have a 0:30:32.160 --> 0:30:35.400 hard time distinguishing between good and evil and right and wrong. 0:30:35.440 --> 0:30:37.480 Yeah, I think you do. But I think where I'd 0:30:37.480 --> 0:30:40.480 go slightly further than Schafer. Schafer was a huge influence 0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:42.120 on me as a as a young Christian. So I'm 0:30:42.120 --> 0:30:45.560 glad you're also a fan. Um, but I think actually 0:30:45.560 --> 0:30:48.760 people rebel. I think you've seen this in things like cinema, 0:30:48.800 --> 0:30:51.280 you know, movies that have tried to really just rip 0:30:51.280 --> 0:30:55.000 everything up and celebrate the, the, you know, nasty stuff 0:30:55.000 --> 0:30:58.840 and downplay the heroic or deconstruct heroes, um, have done badly. 0:30:58.880 --> 0:31:00.760 I mean, look at the look at the the the 0:31:00.800 --> 0:31:03.719 ticket returns on the Star Wars movies. You know, once 0:31:03.720 --> 0:31:07.040 they start deconstructing their heroes, fans kind of walk away. 0:31:07.040 --> 0:31:09.720 And a couple of years ago, you know, um, when 0:31:09.960 --> 0:31:12.700 I noticed when you had, you know, Tom Cruise's, you know, 0:31:13.220 --> 0:31:15.620 remake of Top Gun. You know, Top Gun Maverick, that 0:31:15.620 --> 0:31:18.500 thing cleaned up at the cinema because I think audience 0:31:18.500 --> 0:31:21.500 was like, yes, a movie with a hero and a 0:31:21.500 --> 0:31:23.860 clear moral framework, and there's good and there's evil. So 0:31:23.860 --> 0:31:27.140 I think actually, um, yeah, Schafer was absolutely right. But 0:31:27.140 --> 0:31:28.979 I think he missed the fact or could have made 0:31:28.980 --> 0:31:31.140 the point that I think people rebel and go, no, 0:31:31.140 --> 0:31:34.300 we don't want these stories. Thank you very much. Yeah. 0:31:34.660 --> 0:31:37.979 People are looking are desperately looking for meaning and that. 0:31:37.980 --> 0:31:39.820 And then you end up with this strange sort of disconnect, 0:31:39.820 --> 0:31:42.500 I think, between perhaps the literati and the artistic culture 0:31:42.500 --> 0:31:45.660 and the ordinary people. Yeah. Which is going on. But yeah, 0:31:45.660 --> 0:31:48.460 I don't think you I don't think you can escape it. Um, 0:31:48.900 --> 0:31:50.380 and by the way, you mentioned Louis, one of the 0:31:50.380 --> 0:31:53.380 fun things, of course, is, you know, um, is that Tolkien, 0:31:53.420 --> 0:31:56.580 of course, was instrumental in leading Louis to faith. And 0:31:56.580 --> 0:31:58.780 one of Lewis's stumbling blocks was the gospel looked like 0:31:58.780 --> 0:32:01.060 a myth. And it was it was talking to help 0:32:01.060 --> 0:32:03.820 him see. No, no, you're missing the fact that it's 0:32:03.820 --> 0:32:07.580 a true myth. This story has mythic qualities to it, 0:32:07.580 --> 0:32:11.280 with the difference that it actually happened, and all those 0:32:11.280 --> 0:32:14.800 other myths that you love are actually refractions and reflections 0:32:14.800 --> 0:32:17.520 of the one true story. When that light bulb moment 0:32:17.760 --> 0:32:20.280 went on for Lewis, that was when he became a Christian. 0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:23.040 On that famous walk along the river in Oxford with 0:32:23.040 --> 0:32:24.640 Tolkien and Hugo Dyson. 0:32:26.760 --> 0:32:29.000 I'll tell you again the power of a story. And 0:32:29.040 --> 0:32:30.800 you know, I jumped the gun because I talked about 0:32:30.800 --> 0:32:32.000 A Tale of Two Cities, and maybe. 0:32:32.040 --> 0:32:33.280 Because in my mind. 0:32:33.320 --> 0:32:34.960 I thought, wait a minute, there is good and evil 0:32:34.960 --> 0:32:37.040 in there. But really, this goes to the wonder question 0:32:37.040 --> 0:32:41.000 you posited about why do we hate selfishness and admire altruism? 0:32:41.200 --> 0:32:45.200 And to the biggest skeptic, you know, grumpy old person 0:32:45.240 --> 0:32:47.760 out there who might be listening, why do we get 0:32:47.760 --> 0:32:49.840 tears in our eyes when we watch stories of people 0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:52.560 who sacrifice for someone else, who do what's good, even 0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:54.960 if it's going to cost them everything? And so here's 0:32:54.960 --> 0:32:57.400 where you bring in Dickens, and you talked about A 0:32:57.400 --> 0:32:59.920 Christmas Carol, and you talk about A Tale of Two Cities. 0:32:59.920 --> 0:33:01.520 I thought it was brilliant the way you did this. 0:33:01.520 --> 0:33:02.640 Share this with our friends. 0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:05.200 Well of course, uh, yes. I mean, Christmas Carol. I, 0:33:05.240 --> 0:33:07.239 as I say, the definitive version being, of course, The 0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:10.590 Muppet Christmas Carol. and my kids love. It's a great 0:33:10.590 --> 0:33:12.830 way into Dickens and what I start by making the 0:33:12.830 --> 0:33:15.470 point in that classic story. Whether you've read it or 0:33:15.510 --> 0:33:18.950 seen a sophisticated version or you've watched the Muppet version. Um, 0:33:18.990 --> 0:33:22.070 we that story works because Dickens was able to assume that, 0:33:22.070 --> 0:33:24.390 you know, that Scrooge is not the hero. You're not 0:33:24.390 --> 0:33:28.910 supposed to sit there going, yes, Scrooge is fantastic. He's wonderful. Um, 0:33:28.910 --> 0:33:32.110 and you're not supposed to be disappointed when he becomes 0:33:32.110 --> 0:33:34.630 he discovers a heart and compassion at the end. You're 0:33:34.630 --> 0:33:36.110 supposed to go on that journey with him and go, 0:33:36.150 --> 0:33:39.510 that's fantastic! He's gone from being a selfish, grumpy old 0:33:39.510 --> 0:33:42.229 man to somebody now who is, you know, returned to 0:33:42.230 --> 0:33:44.670 the human race, and you're supposed to cheer that? Dickens 0:33:44.670 --> 0:33:47.710 could assume that. But why could he assume that? Why 0:33:47.750 --> 0:33:51.150 assume that altruism is a good thing? Why not every 0:33:51.150 --> 0:33:54.590 man or woman for himself? That's the case in nature. Uh, 0:33:54.630 --> 0:33:56.990 most of the time. Where do we get this idea 0:33:56.990 --> 0:34:00.630 from that sacrificing for others is a is a good thing. 0:34:00.670 --> 0:34:02.990 And then I bring that other Dickens, uh, story, and 0:34:02.990 --> 0:34:04.990 I bring in A Tale of Two Cities, which has 0:34:04.990 --> 0:34:07.969 this amazing sacrifice at, uh, At the heart of it. 0:34:07.970 --> 0:34:10.890 When you've got Charles Darnay and Sydney Carton, who looks, 0:34:11.010 --> 0:34:14.170 you know, they look almost identical. Charles gets arrested during 0:34:14.170 --> 0:34:19.010 the French Revolution and, uh, is facing the capital punishment. 0:34:19.010 --> 0:34:21.770 Sydney visits him in prison. Uh, has him drugged and 0:34:21.770 --> 0:34:26.730 smuggled out, takes his place, dies for him. Uh. Incredible story. 0:34:26.770 --> 0:34:30.130 I mean, I've hardly done justice summarizing it in 30s. Um, 0:34:30.450 --> 0:34:34.330 but just this amazing story of the gospel story retold 0:34:34.610 --> 0:34:37.969 in through that Dickens tale. Exactly. Um, and basically the 0:34:37.969 --> 0:34:39.609 point I make is, I think the reason we love 0:34:39.650 --> 0:34:42.490 stories of self-sacrifice is, again, it's the same idea. Janet. 0:34:42.489 --> 0:34:44.890 It's the reflection of the of the one true story. 0:34:44.890 --> 0:34:49.129 We all know that the greatest form of love is self-sacrifice, which, 0:34:49.130 --> 0:34:50.810 by the way, gets you not just to what kind 0:34:50.810 --> 0:34:52.410 of God you know. Is there a God? But what 0:34:52.410 --> 0:34:55.089 kind of God? Because the God of the Koran is 0:34:55.090 --> 0:34:57.609 not a God who laid down his life or paid 0:34:57.610 --> 0:34:59.890 a price for us, but the God of the Bible 0:34:59.890 --> 0:35:01.490 is a God who it says in the book of Romans, 0:35:01.530 --> 0:35:03.089 you know, loved us so much that even while we 0:35:03.090 --> 0:35:05.710 were still sinners, while we were still his enemies, He 0:35:05.710 --> 0:35:08.669 gave his life for us. And so that story of 0:35:08.950 --> 0:35:10.950 Sydney giving his life for Charles is the story of 0:35:10.950 --> 0:35:13.430 each one of us, uh, through what God has done 0:35:13.430 --> 0:35:14.310 for us in Christ. 0:35:14.469 --> 0:35:17.150 Exactly. In the book, you do a beautiful job. And 0:35:17.150 --> 0:35:18.589 by the way, if you have if you don't want 0:35:18.630 --> 0:35:20.549 to read the book and you should, it's wonderful. It's 0:35:20.550 --> 0:35:23.390 a classic. You can watch the movie with Ronald Colman, um, 0:35:23.390 --> 0:35:26.750 black and white classic. And that's just unbelievably powerful. But 0:35:26.750 --> 0:35:30.270 you talk about the young seamstress who's also condemned to speak, 0:35:30.270 --> 0:35:33.029 and she turns to Sydney and she said, are you 0:35:33.070 --> 0:35:36.390 dying for him? And he responds, and his wife and 0:35:36.390 --> 0:35:39.430 his child. Shh. And I got tears in my eyes 0:35:39.430 --> 0:35:41.310 when I read that because I thought, you know, this 0:35:41.310 --> 0:35:43.750 is what some people call the shadow of Christ, right? 0:35:43.750 --> 0:35:46.830 Where he makes these appearances in literature and art. And 0:35:46.830 --> 0:35:49.830 if we're paying attention, by the way, as believers, it's 0:35:49.830 --> 0:35:51.270 a great pick up point to be able to say, 0:35:51.270 --> 0:35:52.989 did you see that movie? Did you read that book? 0:35:52.989 --> 0:35:55.150 Did you get this? What did you think about that? 0:35:55.150 --> 0:35:59.350 Because Christ is there making an appearance, although sometimes not 0:35:59.430 --> 0:36:02.390 fully defined, fully pixelated, if I can use modern terms, 0:36:02.390 --> 0:36:04.730 but the presence is there and it's a good place 0:36:04.730 --> 0:36:07.170 to start. And that's exactly what you point out in 0:36:07.170 --> 0:36:10.450 this idea of why do we hate selfishness and admire altruism? 0:36:10.450 --> 0:36:11.930 So friends, are you getting the drift? Do you see 0:36:11.930 --> 0:36:15.370 these wonder questions? And this is why, again, the core 0:36:15.370 --> 0:36:18.529 of this is really evangelism. Not to be afraid. Meet 0:36:18.530 --> 0:36:22.210 people where they're at, knowing that universally in the human condition, 0:36:22.210 --> 0:36:25.730 we have all of us these wonder conditions. And in 0:36:25.730 --> 0:36:28.570 the book, have you ever wondered, there are 28 little 0:36:28.570 --> 0:36:31.850 wonder questions for us to think about. So you read it. 0:36:31.850 --> 0:36:33.969 Give it to somebody who doesn't yet know the Lord. 0:36:33.969 --> 0:36:36.529 Somebody listening right now. If you don't know Christ, if 0:36:36.530 --> 0:36:39.730 you don't know this God and His Son Jesus, I 0:36:39.730 --> 0:36:41.730 encourage you to pick up a copy of Have You 0:36:41.730 --> 0:36:44.450 Ever Wondered? It's right there on my information page at 0:36:44.489 --> 0:36:56.569 In the Market with Janet Parshall back after this. By 0:36:56.570 --> 0:36:58.290 the way, if you want to learn more about Doctor 0:36:58.290 --> 0:37:00.890 Andy Bannister, I have a link to his website on 0:37:00.890 --> 0:37:06.630 our information page Andy Banister, Andy Banister and also the 0:37:06.630 --> 0:37:08.910 new book of the many that Andy has written is 0:37:08.910 --> 0:37:12.910 called Have You Ever Wondered finding the everyday clues to meaning, 0:37:12.910 --> 0:37:15.989 purpose and spirituality? The corn will say it again is 0:37:15.989 --> 0:37:20.029 really evangelism 28 Little Gems. And that's what I think 0:37:20.030 --> 0:37:23.589 they are asking a wonder question that gently points us 0:37:23.590 --> 0:37:26.109 to God. A non-threatening way to get people to start 0:37:26.110 --> 0:37:31.230 thinking about something bigger than themselves, some one bigger than themselves. 0:37:31.230 --> 0:37:33.109 And one of the wonder questions. And this is an 0:37:33.110 --> 0:37:35.230 excellent one. And Andy, I'm so glad you contributed this 0:37:35.230 --> 0:37:37.069 one to the book, is have you ever wondered if 0:37:37.070 --> 0:37:39.430 all religions are basically the same? As I noted at 0:37:39.430 --> 0:37:42.390 the start of our conversation, you got your PhD in 0:37:42.390 --> 0:37:45.350 Islamic studies, so it would be very easy to say, okay, 0:37:45.350 --> 0:37:49.950 it's comparative theology. What is the distinction about Christianity from all? 0:37:49.950 --> 0:37:52.190 If I were going down the elevator 30s what's the 0:37:52.190 --> 0:37:55.790 distinctive for Christianity from all other religions? 0:37:56.790 --> 0:37:59.109 Well, what I would say, Janet, is the question that 0:37:59.110 --> 0:38:01.700 people often ask. They often approach the question this way. 0:38:01.739 --> 0:38:04.140 Do all religions lead to God? And I would say 0:38:04.140 --> 0:38:06.980 the distinction in Christianity is that no other religion even 0:38:06.980 --> 0:38:09.779 claims to lead to God. You know, Buddhism claims to 0:38:09.820 --> 0:38:12.980 lead you to sort of absorption into the cosmic whateverness. 0:38:13.460 --> 0:38:17.020 Atheism leads you to death and extinction. Uh, Islam, which 0:38:17.020 --> 0:38:19.100 is the one people often think, actually, that claims to 0:38:19.100 --> 0:38:21.700 lead you to Paradise, uh, which is a place where 0:38:21.700 --> 0:38:25.500 there's rivers of wine, wonderful, uh, fruit trees, food and, uh, 0:38:25.540 --> 0:38:29.100 women for the men to enjoy in the hereafter. But Christianity, 0:38:29.140 --> 0:38:32.060 on the other hand, the promise, if it offers out, 0:38:32.060 --> 0:38:35.460 is a relationship with God walking and talking with him 0:38:35.500 --> 0:38:37.980 as it was in the beginning, before the world went wrong, 0:38:37.980 --> 0:38:41.380 when sin entered into eternity. So actually, it is only 0:38:41.380 --> 0:38:44.700 Christianity that claims to be able to lead us to 0:38:44.780 --> 0:38:46.819 God in the first place. And by the way, it's 0:38:46.820 --> 0:38:48.980 not so much leading us to God as God coming 0:38:49.020 --> 0:38:52.339 to us in Christ. That's where I would start. Much 0:38:52.340 --> 0:38:54.660 more to be said, but that's where I'd begin. 0:38:55.100 --> 0:38:56.940 You do something else, which I thought was brilliant. You 0:38:56.940 --> 0:39:02.319 said that you can divide the world's religions into three groups. Thinking. Feeling. Doing. 0:39:02.360 --> 0:39:03.719 Explain that to our friends. 0:39:03.719 --> 0:39:06.080 That's right. So if you try and one of the 0:39:06.080 --> 0:39:08.799 big challenges, Janet, is what the word religion means. Um, 0:39:08.800 --> 0:39:11.279 it's a very slippery term because people often say what 0:39:11.280 --> 0:39:14.320 it means belief in God. Well, actually, traditional Buddhism doesn't 0:39:14.320 --> 0:39:16.760 believe in God. So if you try and divide religion 0:39:16.800 --> 0:39:19.239 up and explain it in other kind of ways, anthropologists, 0:39:19.239 --> 0:39:21.920 sociologists and so forth have come up with this sort 0:39:21.920 --> 0:39:24.080 of grid, actually. So this is not unique to me. 0:39:24.080 --> 0:39:26.319 So you can basically divide the world's religions, as you say, 0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:30.719 into those based on thinking Buddhism, classic example. You master 0:39:30.719 --> 0:39:33.520 the right teachings, you learn the right truths, and you 0:39:33.520 --> 0:39:36.680 can get to a, you know, a nirvana, wisdom, a 0:39:36.680 --> 0:39:39.880 higher state of living. Other religions go the experience route. 0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:42.080 Lots of eastern religions go this way, have the right 0:39:42.080 --> 0:39:46.200 mystical experience, and you can somehow connect with the divine. 0:39:46.239 --> 0:39:48.240 You know, whatever it is you're looking for. And then 0:39:48.520 --> 0:39:51.760 other religions go the action route. The doing route. Here 0:39:51.800 --> 0:39:55.239 are a set of commands and instructions. Follow those. Do 0:39:55.239 --> 0:39:59.219 those things and you can gain blessing, uh, you know, whatever. 0:39:59.219 --> 0:40:01.700 And work your way upwards to the divine. And you 0:40:01.700 --> 0:40:04.580 can pretty much divide the world's religions into those three groups. 0:40:04.580 --> 0:40:07.180 The one exception again. And in the chapter, I just 0:40:07.180 --> 0:40:09.780 play with the idea that it's interesting that Christianity doesn't 0:40:09.780 --> 0:40:13.500 really fit because Christianity is not a set of teachings 0:40:13.500 --> 0:40:16.060 brought by Jesus, although he said some amazing things. That's 0:40:16.060 --> 0:40:19.020 not primarily what it is. It's a it's not primarily 0:40:19.020 --> 0:40:21.779 a set of experiences. Although knowing Jesus can be amazing 0:40:21.780 --> 0:40:24.299 and it's not a set of commandments and moral and 0:40:24.340 --> 0:40:27.180 nor a moral code, although it will change how you 0:40:27.180 --> 0:40:29.380 live if you truly believe it. What is at the 0:40:29.380 --> 0:40:33.260 heart of Christianity? It is in fact, Jesus. Christianity is 0:40:33.260 --> 0:40:36.620 all about him and his personality. As somebody once remarked, 0:40:36.660 --> 0:40:39.259 Take Christ out of Christian and you're left with three 0:40:39.260 --> 0:40:44.219 letters I, A, and N, and Ian cannot help you. Um, 0:40:44.340 --> 0:40:47.739 and it's that it's that person centered nature, which also 0:40:47.739 --> 0:40:50.580 is interesting because Christianity stands or falls, I would say, 0:40:50.780 --> 0:40:53.299 on the person of Jesus. You know, Jesus looks at 0:40:53.300 --> 0:40:54.500 each one of us and says, who do you say 0:40:54.500 --> 0:40:56.919 that I am? And all of us ultimately are forced 0:40:56.920 --> 0:40:59.520 to face the question. Okay, do I believe him? Am 0:40:59.520 --> 0:41:01.400 I going to dismiss him, ignore him, write him off 0:41:01.400 --> 0:41:04.319 as a lunatic or a liar or any of those things? Lewis, C.S. 0:41:04.320 --> 0:41:08.319 Lewis's classic, you know, lunatic, liar or Lord, really? What 0:41:08.320 --> 0:41:10.560 it comes back to Jesus is the one that comes 0:41:10.560 --> 0:41:13.279 back to. And that's a great way to get people thinking. 0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:15.560 I think about the truth claims of Christianity rather than 0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:18.640 some sort of disconnected set of truths. Let's take a 0:41:18.640 --> 0:41:19.560 look at Jesus. 0:41:19.719 --> 0:41:21.600 So let me build on this if I can. And 0:41:21.600 --> 0:41:23.880 I don't want to say it too simplistically, but is 0:41:23.920 --> 0:41:25.799 would you say when you look at all the other 0:41:25.800 --> 0:41:29.399 religions in the world, is Christianity the only one that 0:41:29.400 --> 0:41:33.040 is person centered? I know there's gods in Hinduism, and 0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:36.359 I know that there's Muhammad in Islam, but they none 0:41:36.360 --> 0:41:38.839 of them seem to make the. And this is a 0:41:38.840 --> 0:41:40.719 rhetorical question, but none of them seem to make the 0:41:40.760 --> 0:41:43.839 kind of declarative statements that Jesus did. None of them 0:41:43.840 --> 0:41:47.680 seem to touch and bend down and assimilate like the others. 0:41:47.680 --> 0:41:50.080 So is the distinctive the person? 0:41:50.560 --> 0:41:52.160 Yes, very much so. And I think one of the 0:41:52.160 --> 0:41:54.080 things you can say to a friend if you're talking 0:41:54.080 --> 0:41:56.540 about other religions and so on. You can say if 0:41:56.540 --> 0:41:59.260 somebody takes offense at you, you know, making Jesus unique, 0:41:59.260 --> 0:42:02.140 you can gently say, Janet, okay, can you bring somebody 0:42:02.140 --> 0:42:04.180 I can compare him to? Can you show me somebody 0:42:04.180 --> 0:42:06.740 else who made the claims that he did, who taught 0:42:06.739 --> 0:42:08.900 the way that he did, who who made the exalted 0:42:08.940 --> 0:42:11.739 sort of claims about his own person, uh, that he 0:42:11.739 --> 0:42:13.540 did claim to be equal to God. Being able to 0:42:13.580 --> 0:42:16.700 forgive sins, putting himself on a par with, uh, you know, 0:42:16.739 --> 0:42:18.620 with the, uh, with the temple and so on and 0:42:18.620 --> 0:42:20.940 so forth. Because I don't think there's even another competitor 0:42:20.940 --> 0:42:25.500 on the table, which is interesting. Um, you know, Muhammad, uh, 0:42:25.500 --> 0:42:28.540 whatever we make of him, um, didn't make those kind 0:42:28.540 --> 0:42:30.740 of claims. He claimed to be just a Warner, just 0:42:30.739 --> 0:42:33.700 a teacher of revealed truths that had been revealed to 0:42:33.700 --> 0:42:36.180 him through the angel Gabriel. He didn't claim anything like 0:42:36.180 --> 0:42:38.180 what Jesus did. And this is why, by the way, 0:42:38.180 --> 0:42:40.620 I mentioned a moment ago. That's why C.S. Lewis in 0:42:40.660 --> 0:42:44.100 Mere Christianity makes that famous challenge. You are faced as 0:42:44.100 --> 0:42:46.780 you look at the claims that Jesus made, you really 0:42:46.780 --> 0:42:51.420 are forced to conclude either this guy was a self-aggrandizing liar. Um, 0:42:51.460 --> 0:42:56.170 he was completely Stark staring mad, or you are forced to. 0:42:56.210 --> 0:43:00.169 The third possibility that actually the claims that he made 0:43:00.210 --> 0:43:02.810 were true. And then you add, of course, the resurrection 0:43:03.010 --> 0:43:07.089 vindicating that, and you're left with something quite compelling. 0:43:08.050 --> 0:43:10.930 Exactly. Andy, in an audience our size, you know that 0:43:10.930 --> 0:43:13.209 there are people listening right now who have not yet 0:43:13.210 --> 0:43:16.770 answered the question, who is this Jesus? You conclude by 0:43:16.810 --> 0:43:20.129 giving people several suggested steps on their spiritual journey. Share 0:43:20.130 --> 0:43:21.690 a few of them with us as we close. 0:43:22.170 --> 0:43:24.130 Yeah. So at the end of the very last chapter, Janet, 0:43:24.130 --> 0:43:25.770 I suggest, where do you go from here? So the 0:43:25.770 --> 0:43:29.169 first thing I'd say would say, try praying. Try praying. Look, God, 0:43:29.170 --> 0:43:30.569 I'm not sure what I think about you. I don't 0:43:30.570 --> 0:43:32.489 even know if I believe in you, but if you 0:43:32.489 --> 0:43:35.089 are real, would you show yourself to me? Would you 0:43:35.130 --> 0:43:37.170 guide me towards you? Praying is a good thing. If 0:43:37.210 --> 0:43:38.850 you've never sat down and read one of the gospels, 0:43:38.850 --> 0:43:41.529 we just talked about Jesus. Well, read Mark's Gospel over 0:43:41.530 --> 0:43:43.009 an evening or two. Or, if you're not a reader 0:43:43.010 --> 0:43:45.969 listening to an audiobook, talk to the friend who gave you. 0:43:46.010 --> 0:43:47.770 Have you ever wondered if you end up with one 0:43:48.050 --> 0:43:49.969 and perhaps go to church? Then one Sunday? You know, 0:43:50.010 --> 0:43:51.649 church is not as bad as some of the things 0:43:51.650 --> 0:43:54.870 you may have heard. Lots of Christians are quite normal. Um, 0:43:55.390 --> 0:43:59.029 and um, and then fourthly, begin reading and studying a 0:43:59.030 --> 0:44:01.710 little bit further. You know, I think Christianity is so 0:44:01.710 --> 0:44:05.790 potentially important. If it's true, it's worth investing the time 0:44:05.830 --> 0:44:08.669 to see whether it's true. You don't lose much by 0:44:08.710 --> 0:44:10.870 giving it the time to consider it properly. 0:44:11.230 --> 0:44:13.550 In fact, you conclude the book with a great question. 0:44:13.550 --> 0:44:16.589 Have you ever wondered if it's time to finally explore 0:44:16.910 --> 0:44:19.350 where they're pointing? The book is called Have You Ever 0:44:19.350 --> 0:44:24.670 wondered finding everyday clues to meaning, purpose, and spirituality? 28 0:44:24.670 --> 0:44:28.109 Little Wonder questions that are asked. Excellent for you who 0:44:28.110 --> 0:44:31.189 already know Jesus. Just the confirmation of how much he 0:44:31.190 --> 0:44:34.270 loves you and pursued you. In truth, for those of 0:44:34.270 --> 0:44:37.310 you who haven't answered the God question or who is 0:44:37.310 --> 0:44:40.469 Jesus Lord, lunatic or liar, this might be a great 0:44:40.469 --> 0:44:42.589 place for you to start, so I strongly recommend to you. 0:44:42.630 --> 0:44:46.750 Have you ever wondered Doctor Andy Bannister, another fabulous conversation. 0:44:46.750 --> 0:44:49.390 My deepest thanks. Thank you friends. We'll see you next time.