WEBVTT - The Alternative to Abortion | Roland Warren 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:03.760 If you think abortion is a morally neutral consumer product 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:05.360 that women want in need, you're going to approach this 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:07.320 like Coca Cola or like anybody else who sells a 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:10.120 consumer product that you think folks should have. And so 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:13.640 that created an enormous opportunity for us, but also a 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:15.040 challenge in some ways as well. 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:23.480 Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:27.640 the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today, 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.680 the president and CEO of Care Net joins us to 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.800 talk about why we must be pro abundant life in 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:36.000 our approach to the issue of abortion. 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.800 I am really excited to hear Doctor Chapman's discussion today 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.639 with Care Nets. Rolland Warren Rollin's new book is the 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.199 best I've seen at explaining the concept of being pro 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:51.800 abundant life for everyone in the equation of an abortion decision. 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:54.080 And if you're on the other side of this issue, 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:56.640 I want to challenge you to listen to Rollin's story 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:58.940 and his arguments. I think it will be a be 0:00:58.940 --> 0:01:01.700 a helpful discussion for everyone. So if you go to 0:01:01.740 --> 0:01:06.420 building relationships us, you'll see our featured resource, the alternative 0:01:06.420 --> 0:01:10.300 to Abortion. Why we must be pro abundant life. Just 0:01:10.300 --> 0:01:14.100 go to building relationships. Us and Gary, you've been around 0:01:14.100 --> 0:01:17.340 a long time, long enough to know what a contentious 0:01:17.340 --> 0:01:20.420 issue this has been in the culture and in the church. 0:01:20.900 --> 0:01:24.700 Well, that's for sure. Today, in today's world, never would 0:01:24.740 --> 0:01:26.740 have thought that we would be at the place we 0:01:26.740 --> 0:01:30.420 are now many, many years ago. But I am excited 0:01:30.420 --> 0:01:34.140 about our discussion today because this is something that is 0:01:34.140 --> 0:01:37.060 so needed in our culture. So looking forward to our 0:01:37.060 --> 0:01:38.340 discussion with Rolland. 0:01:38.780 --> 0:01:41.419 Well, let's meet him. Rolland Warren is president and CEO 0:01:41.420 --> 0:01:44.100 of Care Net, one of the largest networks of crisis 0:01:44.100 --> 0:01:48.220 pregnancy centers in North America. A graduate of Princeton University 0:01:48.220 --> 0:01:51.540 and the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania, 0:01:51.860 --> 0:01:54.540 after 20 years in the corporate world, he spent 11 0:01:54.540 --> 0:01:58.720 years as president of the National Fatherhood Initiative. He's the 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.800 author of Bad Dads of the Bible Raising Sons of 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.720 Promise A guide for Single Mothers of Boys. And our 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:08.680 featured resource today, The Alternative to Abortion. He's married to 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:12.360 Doctor Yvette Lopez Warren and has two adult sons, Jamin 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:16.040 and Justin, and four grandchildren. Find out more at Building 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.120 Relationships us. 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:20.440 Well, Rolland, welcome to Building Relationships. 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.320 Well, thank you very much. I've been a big fan 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.440 of your work for many, many years, so it's just 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:27.960 an honor to have an opportunity to speak to you. 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:30.400 Well thank you. We are glad to have you here 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:34.040 and particularly on this topic. So let's begin with the 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.040 work of Carenet and what you've been doing through the 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:42.080 years as an organization. As I understand it, since 2008. 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:45.239 Carenet has helped save the lives of more than a 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.919 million babies. Is that true? And can you give us 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:50.520 an overview of that ministry? 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:56.140 Yes, it's absolutely true. I mean, it started actually in 1975, 0:02:56.180 --> 0:02:59.060 actually called the Christian Action Council, and was there right 0:02:59.060 --> 0:03:01.739 around the time that the Roe decision came down from 0:03:01.740 --> 0:03:04.780 the Supreme Court and have been working for years to 0:03:04.780 --> 0:03:09.180 help women and men facing pregnancy decisions have compassion, hope 0:03:09.180 --> 0:03:13.020 and help and discipleship through the church when they're facing 0:03:13.139 --> 0:03:17.380 pregnancy decisions. So we've got a network of over 1249 0:03:17.500 --> 0:03:21.339 and counting affiliated pregnancy centers in the US and Canada. 0:03:21.340 --> 0:03:23.580 And really, what folks get when they go to these 0:03:23.620 --> 0:03:27.420 pregnancy centers is really the help that they need to 0:03:27.500 --> 0:03:30.540 make a life decision. We say all the time that 0:03:30.540 --> 0:03:33.980 life decisions need life support. And so a pregnancy center 0:03:33.980 --> 0:03:36.540 is one of those first steps in that life support 0:03:36.540 --> 0:03:39.820 that people need in order to make a pregnancy decision. 0:03:39.820 --> 0:03:41.940 And as you know, this issue is front and center 0:03:41.940 --> 0:03:45.220 in the culture in every way possible. And so the 0:03:45.260 --> 0:03:48.500 work of pregnancy centers across the country needs to be supported, 0:03:48.500 --> 0:03:52.380 and it needs to be connected to the broader mission 0:03:52.380 --> 0:03:53.960 of the Christian community. 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:58.240 Yeah. Well, your involvement with the issue of abortion goes 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:02.080 back to your college days at Princeton, and you're very 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:05.720 open about this story in your new book. Would you 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:07.440 would you share what happened? 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:10.600 Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I, you know, I was 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.200 a junior at Princeton, and my girlfriend and my wife 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.160 of 42 years was a was a sophomore and we 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.120 were Christians on campus. But we were doing stuff that 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:20.640 Christians shouldn't do. And the consequence of that was that 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:24.279 we faced a pregnancy decision. And, you know, it's interesting 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.160 because when she went to Student Health Services, you know, 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.680 she went to the nurse to get the pregnancy test. 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.360 The nurse comes back and says it's positive. And without 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:35.360 taking an extra gulp of air, says, now, of course 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:37.600 you're going to have an abortion. And so my wife 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:39.119 Yvette says, well, I don't want to have an abortion. 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:40.920 I want to get married. The nurse says, well, how 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.560 are you going to graduate from Princeton with a baby? And, 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.599 you know, Yvette persists a bit and says and says, look, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:48.479 I want to get married. I want to have my baby. 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:49.599 She says, well, wait, what do you want to do 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.260 when you graduate? And David says, I want to become 0:04:52.260 --> 0:04:53.820 a doctor. And the nurse is, my gosh, how are 0:04:53.820 --> 0:04:55.820 you going to become a doctor with a baby? How 0:04:55.860 --> 0:04:57.940 are you going to graduate from Princeton with a baby? 0:04:58.020 --> 0:05:00.180 And so, you know, she comes back to the dorm room. 0:05:00.180 --> 0:05:02.380 And I always joke, which embarrasses my wife. I say 0:05:02.380 --> 0:05:03.940 that we were sitting on the edge of the bed, 0:05:04.260 --> 0:05:05.860 which is where we should spend all of our time. 0:05:06.180 --> 0:05:08.099 And she gives me this news and, you know, in 0:05:08.100 --> 0:05:10.100 my 20 year old way, by God's grace, I say, no, 0:05:10.100 --> 0:05:11.860 we're going to move forward with the plan and we're 0:05:11.860 --> 0:05:13.340 going to get married. And so that's what we did. 0:05:13.420 --> 0:05:16.500 I was 20. She was 19. And we had our 0:05:16.500 --> 0:05:19.060 son at Princeton. And, you know, she ended up graduating 0:05:19.060 --> 0:05:21.820 with Princeton, not with one child, but with two, because 0:05:21.820 --> 0:05:24.020 it's Princeton. You got to overachieve, you know. Ivy League. 0:05:24.380 --> 0:05:27.980 So we have two, two babies. And then she went 0:05:27.980 --> 0:05:30.860 on to become a doctor. She's been practicing medicine about 0:05:30.860 --> 0:05:35.300 30 years now. So I saw firsthand, obviously, this this 0:05:35.300 --> 0:05:38.260 issue and how the temptation to sort of try to 0:05:38.260 --> 0:05:40.380 get rid of the problem is there when you when 0:05:40.380 --> 0:05:42.860 you see your your future before you and you're not 0:05:42.860 --> 0:05:44.700 sure how things are going to work. But I also 0:05:44.700 --> 0:05:49.300 saw how God steps into that situation, uh, when when 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.159 we were facing this, this pregnancy decision and a lot 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.040 of that which I didn't know at the time, frankly, 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:56.880 as a 20 year old, helped me frame the perspective 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.720 that I have now, this notion about being pro abundant life, 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:04.279 because what we actually lived out during that time as 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:06.400 a 20 year old, a 19 year old, is the 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.159 framework that I'm talking about in this book. And the 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:11.719 way to kind of think about the issue and transition 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.640 from being just being pro-life to being pro abundant life. 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:17.760 And we can talk more about that. But that's essentially 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:18.599 where it started. 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.760 Well, the experience you went through has to be a 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:27.000 part of why you do what you do today, right? 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.800 Oh, absolutely. You know, everything that I've done in terms 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.800 of when God called me from the business world, uh, to, uh, 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.640 to nonprofit work and then to ministry, it's connected to that. 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.360 I grew up without a father. Uh, my mother was 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.880 a single mother for, you know, most of my life. Um, 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.120 certainly from the time I was 6 or 7, uh, 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.820 four kids under the age of eight and with no dad. 0:06:48.820 --> 0:06:51.900 So I saw the fatherhood issue firsthand. I lived it, 0:06:51.900 --> 0:06:53.700 which kind of motivated me around the book I wrote 0:06:53.700 --> 0:06:56.380 about raising Sons of Promise, a guide for single mothers 0:06:56.380 --> 0:06:58.820 of boys, and then wrote The Bad Dad of the 0:06:58.820 --> 0:07:02.300 Bible Book, based on my work at National Fatherhood Initiative, 0:07:02.420 --> 0:07:05.020 became a father very early in life, didn't have a dad. 0:07:05.020 --> 0:07:08.420 So that was there. And then those perspectives also informed 0:07:08.420 --> 0:07:11.500 the work that I do at night, because the fatherhood 0:07:11.500 --> 0:07:14.740 issue and engaging men is a central part of a 0:07:15.020 --> 0:07:18.820 abundant life, a way of looking at the life issue. So, 0:07:18.820 --> 0:07:21.740 as you've heard probably many times, God doesn't waste pain. 0:07:21.740 --> 0:07:23.900 And he certainly didn't waste any of that. And he 0:07:23.940 --> 0:07:27.180 all those perspectives that I kind of learned very early on, 0:07:27.180 --> 0:07:30.340 God brought together when he called me to the ministry 0:07:30.380 --> 0:07:32.820 of opportunity here. And so I brought all that with 0:07:32.820 --> 0:07:34.740 me when I, when I came to cabinet. 0:07:34.780 --> 0:07:38.140 Yeah. So when someone says, you don't know what it's 0:07:38.140 --> 0:07:43.580 like to face unplanned pregnancy for you, that's certainly not true. 0:07:43.780 --> 0:07:46.480 I'm sure you must have great empathy for people who 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.520 are in that situation and struggling with the decision they're 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:50.160 going to make. 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:55.240 No, absolutely. You know, it's it's what you're challenged with is, 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.440 you know, are you going to sacrifice your yourself for 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.480 the vulnerable or are you going to sacrifice the vulnerable 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.080 for yourself? And, you know, that's really kind of what 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:05.960 makes us human if you think about it. I mean, 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.800 the essence of compassion is that you you make the decision, right? 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:13.120 To not sacrifice the vulnerable for yourself, but to sacrifice 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.560 yourself for the vulnerable. And that's really what the parenting 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.480 decision is. And that's why we call, you know, mothers 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:21.480 who who make this decision to bring their child into 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.280 the world even though they can't necessarily see the future. 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.120 That's why we call them blessed. I mean, that's why 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.800 Mary was called blessed. She she didn't sacrifice the vulnerable 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.120 Christ inside of her for herself. She sacrificed herself for 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:35.560 the vulnerable. And so that's what's before us. And that's 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.920 why it's a righteous decision when you choose to bring 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:40.480 your child into the world. And I kind of live 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:42.400 that out. And I saw that with my wife. And 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.420 that's why I call her blessing? Of course. Because, you know, 0:08:45.460 --> 0:08:47.179 even though it was a situation where she could have 0:08:47.179 --> 0:08:49.579 gone the other way, the reality was that she made 0:08:49.580 --> 0:08:52.580 that that choice. And I'll tell you, you know, the 0:08:52.580 --> 0:08:54.740 story of Mary was really one of the things that 0:08:54.740 --> 0:08:58.420 motivated me around this perspective that I have around the 0:08:58.420 --> 0:09:01.580 life issue, because, see, Mary was facing an unplanned pregnancy 0:09:01.580 --> 0:09:04.179 from a human perspective. She had hopes and dreams for 0:09:04.179 --> 0:09:06.020 her life that didn't include a child at this time 0:09:06.020 --> 0:09:07.740 and in this way. And the angel comes to her 0:09:07.740 --> 0:09:10.939 and gives her this news. And Mary had all these questions, 0:09:10.940 --> 0:09:13.339 I'm sure, swirling around in her head. What's my family 0:09:13.340 --> 0:09:14.940 going to say? You know, how am I going to 0:09:14.940 --> 0:09:16.860 take care of this child? What's Joseph going to say? 0:09:17.140 --> 0:09:19.020 And in the midst of all that, she didn't focus 0:09:19.020 --> 0:09:21.500 on the uncertainty of what she didn't know. She focused 0:09:21.500 --> 0:09:23.060 on the certainty of what she did. There was a 0:09:23.059 --> 0:09:25.300 life growing inside of her. And it wasn't a life 0:09:25.340 --> 0:09:28.460 worth sacrificing, but a life worth sacrificing for. And when 0:09:28.460 --> 0:09:30.819 I started with Karen, and I realized that the work 0:09:30.820 --> 0:09:33.140 that we're called to do, the ministry we are called 0:09:33.140 --> 0:09:36.380 to do, is really helping women tap into their inner Mary. 0:09:36.420 --> 0:09:38.740 My wife, though, the way she got pregnant, was obviously 0:09:38.740 --> 0:09:42.439 very different from Mary. The reality was the same after 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.280 the conception, which was what was my family going to say? 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.240 What's my father going to say? All my hopes and 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.040 my dreams. And like Mary, she didn't focus on the 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:52.120 uncertainty of what she didn't know. She focused on the what? 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.640 On the certainty of what she did. Yeah. And so 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:56.839 that's a key part of this. This work is really 0:09:56.840 --> 0:10:00.160 trying to help women tap into their inner Mary to 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.440 ascribe to themselves the virtue and the character of Mary. Mhm. 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.640 I'm guessing that looking back on your life at the 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:12.120 age of 20, when all of this happened, that had 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:16.800 an impact on your relationship with God at that juncture? 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:18.800 Would that be true? There was there was a real 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:21.320 a step of real growth in your life at that juncture? 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:25.720 Absolutely. You know, children change everything. And, you know, it's 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.640 interesting because the parenting process, you know, is a process 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.640 that God uses to help you in terms of your 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:35.200 spiritual formation. Right? To become more holy, to be more 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.000 like God, if you will. And that's what we're called 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:41.820 to do as Christians. And so, you know, it absolutely. 0:10:41.820 --> 0:10:44.820 Is that that perspective where when when I was faced 0:10:44.820 --> 0:10:47.100 with this decision and we decided to get married and 0:10:47.100 --> 0:10:48.900 then we had a decision to make in terms of 0:10:48.900 --> 0:10:50.780 whether we were going to walk with, with Christ or 0:10:50.780 --> 0:10:52.459 not and how we were going to do that. And 0:10:52.460 --> 0:10:55.020 you have to trust, I mean, when we it's kind 0:10:55.020 --> 0:10:57.220 of an interesting thing now. It's probably more scary when 0:10:57.220 --> 0:10:58.940 I look at it now, but we had no visible 0:10:58.940 --> 0:11:02.500 means of support. Uh, when we decided to get married, 0:11:02.500 --> 0:11:04.900 our parents basically said, okay, you guys want to get married? Well, 0:11:04.900 --> 0:11:07.020 you're going to be adults and you're on your own. 0:11:07.020 --> 0:11:10.020 So really, we got no financial support from anyone else, 0:11:10.059 --> 0:11:12.380 which not necessarily what I would recommend, but that was 0:11:12.380 --> 0:11:15.100 the reality that we that we faced in that moment. 0:11:15.100 --> 0:11:17.740 And we just watched God just again and again and 0:11:17.740 --> 0:11:20.699 again come through, provide us the means to be able 0:11:20.700 --> 0:11:23.740 to ourselves and our child and, and then all these 0:11:23.740 --> 0:11:25.540 things that, you know, the nurse had told her would 0:11:25.540 --> 0:11:28.740 never happen. But they all happened because, you know, with God, 0:11:28.740 --> 0:11:30.700 everything is possible. 0:11:30.740 --> 0:11:35.860 Um, yeah. Roland, earlier you mentioned the word abundant, not 0:11:35.860 --> 0:11:41.239 just pro-life, but pro abundant life. Let's talk about that phrase. 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:45.800 And what makes you emphasize that and what what is 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:47.480 that communicating to you? 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:50.960 Well, that really comes from John 1010, where Christ said, 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:52.320 I came that you might have life and then have 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.000 that life abundantly. And you know, Jesus in that, in 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:58.360 that passage is talking about two types of life. He's 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:00.640 talking about physical life, which is kind of the Greek 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.199 word bios, bios. But he's also talking about a unique 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.679 type of spiritual life that only comes from a relationship 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.520 with God, which is Zoe. So essentially, what he's basically 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:12.520 saying is, I came to link your bios to my 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.599 Zoe that you might be heartbeats that are heaven bound. 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.560 And so when I started this work with, with the 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.199 pro-life movement, and I realized that so much of the 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.800 focus was on bios, but not on Zoe. In other words, 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.480 saving the baby, if you will. It's God honoring, of course. 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.160 But when you think about this from a Christian perspective, 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:32.920 it's not just about saving the baby. It's not just 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.420 about helping the woman. It goes way beyond that. We're 0:12:36.420 --> 0:12:40.300 called for kids to not just have physical life, if 0:12:40.300 --> 0:12:43.180 you will, but also to have eternal life, which means 0:12:43.179 --> 0:12:45.579 that you've got to think about this issue in that way. 0:12:45.580 --> 0:12:48.380 And so the insight God gave me in that moment 0:12:48.380 --> 0:12:51.060 was that Jesus wasn't just pro life, he was pro 0:12:51.100 --> 0:12:53.260 abundant life. How do we know? Because he said, I 0:12:53.260 --> 0:12:56.660 came that you might have life and have that life abundantly. 0:12:56.940 --> 0:12:59.740 And so when God downloaded that into my head about, 0:12:59.740 --> 0:13:01.819 you know, about ten years ago, and I started talking 0:13:01.820 --> 0:13:04.020 about that and thinking about that and studying the Scripture 0:13:04.020 --> 0:13:06.260 that way, I realized that there was a need to 0:13:06.260 --> 0:13:09.340 expand how you think about this issue, so that you 0:13:09.340 --> 0:13:12.100 anchor it fully in the call of Christ. Christ wasn't 0:13:12.100 --> 0:13:14.700 just pro life, he was pro abundant life. He said, 0:13:14.700 --> 0:13:17.140 I came to have life and have that life abundantly. 0:13:17.300 --> 0:13:19.740 And so, hey, you can be an atheist and be 0:13:19.740 --> 0:13:23.140 pro-life because you're solving for BS, but you can't be 0:13:23.140 --> 0:13:25.939 an atheist and be pro abundant life because you're solving 0:13:25.940 --> 0:13:28.180 for bias. And Zoe and I think as Christians, we're 0:13:28.179 --> 0:13:31.219 called to go beyond just what an atheist would would 0:13:31.220 --> 0:13:33.620 be called to. And that's really where the pro abundant 0:13:33.620 --> 0:13:36.760 life perspective comes from and how it's laid out in 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:38.520 the book, and I explain that in more detail. 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:43.120 Yeah, I like that. I like that very much. I 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:47.040 know that many, many women face this issue and sometimes, 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:51.640 you know, husband's involved and sometimes they're just they're single. 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:56.560 But what are some of the reasons that go through 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:00.079 a woman's mind that lead her to, to want an abortion? 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:02.960 Well, it's interesting because, you know, going back to my 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:05.520 own situation and going back to the story of Mary 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.720 and Joseph, you know, what did God do to make 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:11.360 sure that Mary's unplanned pregnancy wasn't a crisis pregnancy? He 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.320 didn't give her a social services program. Right. What he 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.240 did was he called Joseph to be a husband to 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.320 her and a father to the child growing inside of her. See, 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.440 because Joseph, in a lot of ways faced the same 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.880 dilemma as any abortion minded man. He had hopes for 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.280 his life, dreams for his life that didn't include a 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:28.840 child at this time and in this way. And he 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.320 actually had a plan. He was going to divorce her quietly. 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.300 And the angel comes to Joseph and says, what? Do 0:14:34.300 --> 0:14:36.620 not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. In 0:14:36.620 --> 0:14:39.180 other words, what you see in the story of the 0:14:39.180 --> 0:14:42.340 birth of Christ in that nativity narrative is that God's 0:14:42.340 --> 0:14:46.060 response to an unplanned pregnancy and the vulnerability of the 0:14:46.060 --> 0:14:48.740 woman and the vulnerability of the child was what? To 0:14:48.780 --> 0:14:52.060 create a family, to call the man, to step into 0:14:52.060 --> 0:14:53.620 the role, to be a husband to her and a 0:14:53.620 --> 0:14:55.620 father to the child growing inside of her. And I 0:14:55.620 --> 0:14:58.660 would add, the first thing that God did, the angel 0:14:58.660 --> 0:15:00.860 said to Joseph was, do not be afraid to take 0:15:00.860 --> 0:15:04.100 Mary as your. What? Baby mama. No wife. So in 0:15:04.100 --> 0:15:06.220 the story of Mary and Joseph, what you find is 0:15:06.220 --> 0:15:09.500 two sanctities the sanctity of marriage and family as God 0:15:09.500 --> 0:15:12.420 designed and the sanctity of life. And one of my 0:15:12.420 --> 0:15:15.060 observations was, when you look at the life issue in 0:15:15.060 --> 0:15:17.020 terms of how we've kind of looked at this for many, 0:15:17.020 --> 0:15:20.620 many years, we focus on the sanctity of life, but 0:15:20.620 --> 0:15:23.020 we didn't focus on the sanctity of marriage and family, 0:15:23.020 --> 0:15:25.860 which is why in many cases, people focus on helping 0:15:25.860 --> 0:15:28.980 the woman save the baby, but not engaging the man 0:15:28.980 --> 0:15:31.600 and not calling him like God did to be a 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:33.760 husband to her and a father to the child growing 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.720 inside of her. And I'll just say the data actually 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.200 shows the problem with that. 87% of the women that 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:44.560 have abortions are unmarried. 87%. So you can explain to me, 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.400 how are you going to solve the abortion issue without 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:50.200 solving the sanctity of marriage and family issue? And we, 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.880 the people of the book should be very much focused 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:54.760 on that. And we kind of lost our way, in 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.320 my view, when we started to focus on this issue. 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.840 From a perspective, in my view, that's not pro abundant life, 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:02.359 but just pro life. And so that's a key part 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.440 of being pro abundant life. That first pillar is God's 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.120 design for family, which means that you're not just trying 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.800 to save the baby, help the mother, but you're reaching 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:14.000 the father. You're engaging him. You're inspiring him. God sent 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.080 an angel to Joseph and called him into a role. 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:18.920 And in the same way, frankly, I was called into 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.440 the same role. My wife was in a similar dilemma, 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:24.160 and what was the reason why she was less likely 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.800 to have an abortion? Well, by God's grace, God called 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:28.740 to me in the same way to Joseph to be 0:16:28.740 --> 0:16:31.300 a husband to her and to the father to the 0:16:31.300 --> 0:16:33.500 child growing inside of her. Do you see? So this 0:16:33.500 --> 0:16:35.500 is what it means to be pro abundant life. You're 0:16:35.500 --> 0:16:39.180 expanding this perspective, but you're anchoring it in the nativity 0:16:39.220 --> 0:16:41.980 narrative in the first chapter of the first book of 0:16:41.980 --> 0:16:43.020 the New Testament. 0:16:43.340 --> 0:16:46.020 Yeah. I'm just thinking of the fathers that might be 0:16:46.020 --> 0:16:50.740 listening to us today. Who out of wedlock, you know, 0:16:50.780 --> 0:16:55.780 impregnated a woman. And how many of them were ever 0:16:55.780 --> 0:17:00.460 challenged to become the husband and then the father of 0:17:00.500 --> 0:17:01.380 that child? 0:17:01.940 --> 0:17:04.020 Well, you know, that's one of the problems. Candidly, I 0:17:04.020 --> 0:17:06.660 think for many years we've treated men the same way 0:17:06.660 --> 0:17:09.100 that the other side has treated them. Right. So the 0:17:09.100 --> 0:17:11.100 guys sitting out in the parking lot at Planned Parenthood, 0:17:11.100 --> 0:17:12.780 they don't want him to come in. They don't want 0:17:12.780 --> 0:17:14.700 him to do that. They don't want to be involved 0:17:14.700 --> 0:17:17.140 in this. It's her body. It's her choice. They want 0:17:17.140 --> 0:17:19.780 him to act like Adam, right? Because really, if you 0:17:19.780 --> 0:17:22.020 think about the first abortion act was actually in the 0:17:22.020 --> 0:17:24.340 garden because she said, what? My body, my choice. In 0:17:24.340 --> 0:17:26.479 other words, I'll take this fruit and do with it 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:28.320 what I want, because I know what's better for me 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.120 than you do. And what did Adam do? He stood silent. Well, 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:32.840 that's the same thing that the evil one wants on 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:36.480 this issue. And frankly, when you actually look at the data, 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.159 you know, we did a national survey with LifeWay, and 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.840 we surveyed women who had abortions, and we asked them, 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:43.720 who did you talk to about your abortion decision? We 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.080 have a long list of folks, their mother, their best friend. 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:48.600 Planned Parenthood, all that. Number one was the father of 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:50.560 the baby, the guy who got her pregnant. Then we said, 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:53.200 who was the most influential in your decision to abort? 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:55.320 Guess who it was again? The father of the baby. 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:59.479 Did the same survey with Post-abortive men. Right. Ask them, 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.240 who did she talk to about the abortion decision? Same list. 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.240 He said me. Then ask them who was the most 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.399 influential in her decision to abort. Once again he said, me. 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.320 So here's the woman who has the abortion, the guy 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.200 who supported the abortion, both saying that he's the most 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:18.480 influential in the decision to abort. And yet, for years, 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.680 we've done nothing to really engage him in the same 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.679 way that God sent an angel, a direct like like 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.220 Joseph didn't get a Smurf or a gnome or something. 0:18:26.220 --> 0:18:28.500 He got an angel just like Mary. It was an 0:18:28.500 --> 0:18:30.659 equal call for him to step into that role. And 0:18:30.660 --> 0:18:33.619 so being pro abundant life, you you're trying to build 0:18:33.619 --> 0:18:36.940 a strong family. And if you build a strong family, 0:18:36.940 --> 0:18:40.460 just like in our case, we faced one unplanned pregnancy. 0:18:41.140 --> 0:18:44.300 We didn't return again to that same situation. Why? Because 0:18:44.300 --> 0:18:47.140 we built a family. Isn't that what we want? Isn't 0:18:47.140 --> 0:18:49.340 that the hope that we have? Isn't that what we're 0:18:49.340 --> 0:18:51.379 called to do? I mean, the woman at the well, 0:18:51.380 --> 0:18:54.780 Jesus met her how many times? Once because she was transformed. 0:18:54.900 --> 0:18:57.340 And so I believe that if you have a abundant 0:18:57.340 --> 0:19:00.700 life perspective, if you're focused on God's design for family, 0:19:00.820 --> 0:19:03.500 which means you're trying to engage men, calling them into 0:19:03.500 --> 0:19:06.580 the role of fatherhood. If you can, to the best 0:19:06.580 --> 0:19:08.699 of your ability. And that needs to be a primary 0:19:08.700 --> 0:19:12.220 initiative of any pro abundant life perspective and pro abundant 0:19:12.220 --> 0:19:13.420 life approach. 0:19:13.460 --> 0:19:17.900 Yeah. That's powerful. Tell us about the chart that changed 0:19:17.900 --> 0:19:20.860 things for you. The missing support chart. 0:19:21.300 --> 0:19:24.480 Oh, yes. I'm a business guy by training, so there's 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:26.360 got to be a chart. I've got an MBA that's 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:28.280 got to be a chart. And so when I first 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:31.480 started carrying it, I said, Lord, help me understand this 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:33.280 issue and I want to put it on one page. 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.040 And so I drew this chart which folks who get 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:38.560 the book will see. It changed my life and basically 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.159 what the chart is called. It's support needed by mothers 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:45.080 and children, physical, emotional, spiritual and social support. And I 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:47.480 drew out a graph that basically kind of laid that out, 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.080 the kind of support that they need. And then, you know, 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:51.840 at the sort of, I guess the x axis of 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.920 the chart really talks about time conception all the way 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:58.159 to birth and then ongoing to your child's 18. And 0:19:58.160 --> 0:19:59.840 then I drew a line to the right of that 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:02.639 chart saying that support needed by mothers and children increases 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.800 over time. And I realized that a woman is making 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:11.000 the pregnancy decision from conception to birth. But her real 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:14.760 issue and challenge is the missing support after birth. And 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.520 if she can't solve that missing support, she's much more 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.899 likely to have the the abortion. That's what the nurse 0:20:21.900 --> 0:20:24.219 was talking to my wife about. How are you going? 0:20:24.260 --> 0:20:26.020 How are you going? How are you going? And if 0:20:26.020 --> 0:20:28.460 a woman can't solve that, even if you're loving her 0:20:28.460 --> 0:20:31.780 up quite a bit from conception to birth, the reality is, 0:20:31.980 --> 0:20:35.100 it's about nine months and one second. Well, God is wise. 0:20:35.100 --> 0:20:37.460 He has a design to give women the support that 0:20:37.460 --> 0:20:40.620 they need from birth. Ongoing. It's called what? From conception 0:20:40.660 --> 0:20:43.260 on going, which is called what? Husbands and fathers. That's 0:20:43.260 --> 0:20:45.580 why women who have that. A guy who said that 0:20:45.580 --> 0:20:48.620 to them are less likely to have an abortion. So 0:20:48.619 --> 0:20:51.020 that chart really just framed everything for me. And from 0:20:51.020 --> 0:20:53.940 a ministry model perspective, I realized that yes, we need 0:20:53.980 --> 0:20:57.780 pregnancy centers to provide that initial support in those kind 0:20:57.780 --> 0:21:00.219 of situations. But the reality is that if you walk 0:21:00.220 --> 0:21:02.020 into a pregnancy center with a ten year old, there's 0:21:02.020 --> 0:21:05.740 nothing they can do for you. Their support is limited here. 0:21:05.940 --> 0:21:07.619 So you have to be doing a couple of things. 0:21:07.619 --> 0:21:10.340 The first thing is we have to be working aggressively 0:21:10.340 --> 0:21:13.219 to engage men, which is what care nets affiliated pregnancy 0:21:13.220 --> 0:21:16.100 centers do. And I lay that out in the book 0:21:16.100 --> 0:21:18.560 in great detail. But then there's a second piece to 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.480 that missing support, which is the call of the church 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.520 to step into this issue in a very significant way 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:27.640 beyond the way that it's been framed in the past. 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:30.480 I wanted to talk about that later on, for sure, 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:33.880 because I think it's desperately needed, and I think many 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:37.600 churches and leaders wrestle with how how do they best 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:41.399 get involved in this? Let me go to another subject. 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:45.280 What has the abortion pill done to this whole issue? 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:48.960 Well, it's changed it dramatically. You know, as a business guy, 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:51.560 when I first came to this work, you know, I 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:55.320 looked at, you know, Planned Parenthood and the abortion providers, 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.760 not just through ministry glasses. So you can see that 0:21:57.760 --> 0:21:59.959 there's destruction of life and all of that. But I 0:21:59.960 --> 0:22:02.240 put my business glasses on and I realize this is 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.120 a consumer marketing company. They believe that abortion is a 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:08.719 morally neutral consumer product that women want and need. And 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:12.400 I realized that they have a problem in that their 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:16.980 product distribution was limited to the physical location. In other words, 0:22:17.140 --> 0:22:21.020 it wasn't mobile, it wasn't mobile. And frankly, we actually 0:22:21.020 --> 0:22:23.060 had an advantage because no one ever walks into a 0:22:23.060 --> 0:22:25.859 pregnancy center and goes, I saw the the accent wall, 0:22:25.859 --> 0:22:27.700 the window treatments and everything. I knew I could never 0:22:27.700 --> 0:22:30.899 abort my baby. They always say it's because of how 0:22:30.900 --> 0:22:32.899 I was loved and people are mobile. So we had 0:22:32.900 --> 0:22:35.380 the ability to even turn a Starbucks into a pregnancy 0:22:35.380 --> 0:22:38.060 center because we can reach people and love them there. Well, 0:22:38.060 --> 0:22:39.780 as a business person, I look at that, said, they 0:22:39.780 --> 0:22:41.780 got a problem and they know they got a problem. 0:22:41.780 --> 0:22:44.340 So they need to figure out a way to delink 0:22:44.340 --> 0:22:47.820 their product and their service from the physical location. Thus 0:22:47.820 --> 0:22:50.980 the abortion pill. And it's been very aggressive in terms 0:22:50.980 --> 0:22:54.139 of how they've marketed this. So now, you know, about 63% 0:22:54.140 --> 0:22:56.340 of abortions are now through the pill. They've been able 0:22:56.340 --> 0:23:02.180 to turn every apartment room, dorm room, bathroom, bedroom into 0:23:02.220 --> 0:23:06.020 an abortion clinic overnight because of the abortion pill. It's 0:23:06.020 --> 0:23:08.780 an absolute game changer. And for business people, which is 0:23:08.780 --> 0:23:11.060 the way they think about this. If you think abortion 0:23:11.060 --> 0:23:13.340 is a morally neutral consumer product that women want in need, 0:23:13.340 --> 0:23:16.160 you're going to approach this like Pepsi or Coca Cola, 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:18.560 or like anybody else who sells a consumer product that 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:21.320 you think folks should have. And so that's created an 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.680 enormous opportunity for us, but also a challenge in some 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:25.359 ways as well. 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:28.760 Yeah. Well, you know, I found that there are there 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:32.480 are some people who admit, you know, that an unborn 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:37.119 child is a human being. And yet they say, but 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:42.200 the mother's rights trumped the child's rights. Talk about that. 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:44.080 You mentioned a little bit about that earlier, but talk 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:44.880 about that. 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:48.120 Yeah. I really do. I think that, you know, when 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:51.800 you start to have that perspective where you're not actually 0:23:51.800 --> 0:23:53.760 looking at the baby in the womb as a life, 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:58.200 and you or you say it's a life worth sacrificing. Right. 0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:03.440 You actually move yourself into a perspective that you're saying 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:07.280 that the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should 0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:10.560 determine its value and worth. So, for example, I'm a 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:14.220 black man like this all day, right? Slaveholders never were 0:24:14.220 --> 0:24:17.300 confused about the fact that black people were human. They 0:24:17.300 --> 0:24:19.939 just believed that they were life worth sacrificing for their 0:24:20.060 --> 0:24:22.740 for their wealth. It's the same thing that's happened. It's 0:24:22.740 --> 0:24:25.820 the same thing that's happening here, right? And so there's 0:24:25.820 --> 0:24:29.020 a parallel between between those two things. And so the 0:24:29.020 --> 0:24:31.580 transformation that needs to happen in people's hearts and minds 0:24:31.580 --> 0:24:33.780 is that you need to start having those discussions with 0:24:33.780 --> 0:24:35.859 people to say, wait a minute. Do you believe that 0:24:35.859 --> 0:24:39.620 the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should determine 0:24:39.619 --> 0:24:42.220 its value and worth? Now, I think as a culture 0:24:42.220 --> 0:24:44.980 and a society, we rejected that. Like, that's why babies 0:24:44.980 --> 0:24:46.380 who were born out of wedlock used to be called 0:24:46.380 --> 0:24:49.659 illegitimate or bastards or whatever, right? We don't do that anymore. Why? 0:24:49.700 --> 0:24:51.699 Because we say, you know what? The circumstances of a 0:24:51.700 --> 0:24:55.060 child's conception and birth should not determine its value and worth. 0:24:55.180 --> 0:24:57.700 And when you have that perspective, you actually line yourself 0:24:57.700 --> 0:25:02.860 up with people throughout history who have done the most inhumane, 0:25:02.900 --> 0:25:06.180 most abhorrent things in the human, in the human condition. 0:25:06.300 --> 0:25:09.460 And so really having that conversation with folks is important. 0:25:09.580 --> 0:25:11.649 I think the other thing that kind of links into 0:25:11.650 --> 0:25:15.530 this is that people have a perception about how life begins, 0:25:15.930 --> 0:25:18.369 and we start to think about life as, as if 0:25:18.369 --> 0:25:21.530 it actually is constructed as opposed to it develops. In 0:25:21.530 --> 0:25:24.490 other words, like a baby is not like a Tesla 0:25:24.490 --> 0:25:27.050 coming off an assembly line. Like you ask yourself a question, 0:25:27.050 --> 0:25:29.250 when does a Tesla actually become a Tesla? I mean, 0:25:29.250 --> 0:25:30.889 when does it when they put the wheels on the 0:25:30.890 --> 0:25:34.650 nameplate and win? Well, the reality is never intrinsically a Tesla. Why? 0:25:34.690 --> 0:25:36.530 Because at any moment you can take it and turn 0:25:36.530 --> 0:25:39.530 it into a toaster and some rubber floor mats. Right. 0:25:40.170 --> 0:25:43.930 Babies are not constructed in the womb. They develop in 0:25:43.930 --> 0:25:46.650 the womb in the same way that a Polaroid picture 0:25:46.650 --> 0:25:49.889 develops when you first take the picture, it's just a 0:25:49.890 --> 0:25:53.250 black blob. But in the fullness of time, it develops. 0:25:53.250 --> 0:25:56.010 And guess what else? It can't be anything else. So 0:25:56.010 --> 0:25:58.730 when you think about this, your conception and birth should 0:25:58.730 --> 0:26:01.450 not determine your value and worth. We don't even believe 0:26:01.450 --> 0:26:04.369 that even pro-choice people don't even believe that. But what 0:26:04.369 --> 0:26:07.410 they've done, they dehumanize the baby so that that framework 0:26:07.410 --> 0:26:10.670 that they have in other situations. They don't apply to 0:26:10.710 --> 0:26:13.550 this situation. And that's how you end up with people saying, well, 0:26:13.550 --> 0:26:15.510 the rights of the rights of this versus the rights 0:26:15.510 --> 0:26:16.070 of that. 0:26:21.670 --> 0:26:25.670 You're listening to the Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast. 0:26:25.710 --> 0:26:27.869 You can find out more about our guest and featured 0:26:27.869 --> 0:26:32.910 resource at Building Relationships us. Rolland Warren is joining us. 0:26:32.950 --> 0:26:36.270 He's the CEO and president of Care Net. His latest 0:26:36.270 --> 0:26:39.909 book is titled The Alternative to Abortion Why We Must 0:26:39.910 --> 0:26:45.030 be Pro Abundant Life. Just go to building relationships us. 0:26:46.390 --> 0:26:48.590 Ronald, what do you say to the woman who believes 0:26:48.590 --> 0:26:52.390 that men have no right to have an opinion or 0:26:52.390 --> 0:26:54.510 a voice in this whole debate? 0:26:55.470 --> 0:26:57.070 Yeah, this is one of the one of sort of 0:26:57.109 --> 0:27:01.390 the classic challenges that that we have around this issue. 0:27:01.390 --> 0:27:03.590 And it's built on sort of a framework that says 0:27:03.710 --> 0:27:07.609 that if a person is not as intimately affected by 0:27:07.609 --> 0:27:11.369 a particular situation. They have no agency in that situation. 0:27:11.570 --> 0:27:13.370 And that's sort of a flawed logic when you think 0:27:13.369 --> 0:27:18.050 about it. Because if a person is impacted by a situation, 0:27:18.050 --> 0:27:21.490 they should have agency. For example, one of the analogies 0:27:21.490 --> 0:27:23.850 I use or illustrations I use with folks is a 0:27:23.850 --> 0:27:25.930 woman who's a stay at home mom. Should she have 0:27:25.930 --> 0:27:28.730 any say about tax policy? A person who doesn't own 0:27:28.730 --> 0:27:31.369 a gun? Should they have any say about gun policy? 0:27:31.650 --> 0:27:33.650 Someone who doesn't have children in school? Should they have 0:27:33.650 --> 0:27:37.250 any input in terms of a situation with school funding 0:27:37.570 --> 0:27:40.570 or a senator who is in Oklahoma? Should they have 0:27:40.570 --> 0:27:43.330 any say about what happens with things in other parts 0:27:43.330 --> 0:27:45.209 of the country? And in all those cases, you say, well, 0:27:45.210 --> 0:27:47.770 of course they do. Why? Because they're impacted by that 0:27:47.770 --> 0:27:51.050 in the same way the father of the child. Right. 0:27:51.330 --> 0:27:54.850 Even though they're obviously not as connected to the issue 0:27:54.850 --> 0:27:57.530 because they're not carrying the child, they still are impacted 0:27:57.530 --> 0:28:00.050 by that. And the reality is that if you didn't 0:28:00.050 --> 0:28:02.330 have this perspective, I always tell people all the time, 0:28:02.450 --> 0:28:05.229 I'm glad we have that perspective, because the argument that 0:28:05.230 --> 0:28:08.190 you're making there is the same argument that the South 0:28:08.190 --> 0:28:10.909 was making during slavery time. They were saying to the North, look, 0:28:10.950 --> 0:28:14.070 no slaves, no say. This argument is no womb, no say. 0:28:14.150 --> 0:28:16.310 They were saying to the North, no slaves, no say. 0:28:16.310 --> 0:28:18.910 But what do we say when there's an injustice happening here? 0:28:19.030 --> 0:28:21.430 So even though we don't have slaves, we still have 0:28:21.430 --> 0:28:24.550 an obligation and a responsibility to get involved when there's 0:28:24.550 --> 0:28:27.670 an injustice. It's the same thing here. So men should 0:28:27.670 --> 0:28:30.189 not take the bait on that. And frankly, the culture 0:28:30.190 --> 0:28:33.910 shouldn't take the bait. If someone is affected by a decision, 0:28:33.910 --> 0:28:36.550 we want them to have agency in terms of that, 0:28:36.550 --> 0:28:39.390 especially when there's an injustice that's taking place, which is 0:28:39.390 --> 0:28:41.910 exactly what's happening with the abortion issue, in the same 0:28:41.910 --> 0:28:44.470 way that that was happening with the slavery issue. 0:28:45.470 --> 0:28:49.190 A reporter once asked if Carenet, the organization that we're 0:28:49.190 --> 0:28:52.910 talking about today, was more for the women or for 0:28:52.910 --> 0:28:56.550 the baby. What did you how did you answer that question? 0:28:57.470 --> 0:29:00.270 Yeah, it's very interesting. I was asked that and I 0:29:00.270 --> 0:29:02.550 asked I told the reporter, I said, it's like you're asking, 0:29:02.550 --> 0:29:05.610 am I more for breathing in or for breathing out? Right. 0:29:05.650 --> 0:29:08.170 I mean, they're both essential to life. I mean, I 0:29:08.210 --> 0:29:12.250 reject that entire framework because it really, you know, kind 0:29:12.290 --> 0:29:15.250 of led us down a path that actually excluded men 0:29:15.250 --> 0:29:18.410 from this conversation. Because when the pro-choice movement sort of 0:29:18.450 --> 0:29:20.730 brought the issue to the public square with the with 0:29:20.730 --> 0:29:23.330 the role decision, they basically said, this issue is about 0:29:23.330 --> 0:29:25.570 a woman. And then a question mark. And then they 0:29:25.570 --> 0:29:28.690 started defining the question mark as about the product of 0:29:28.690 --> 0:29:32.890 conception choice. It's complicated. And they defined it over time. 0:29:32.890 --> 0:29:35.130 And then we sort of responded and said, no, no, 0:29:35.130 --> 0:29:37.090 it's about the baby. We have to save the baby. 0:29:37.090 --> 0:29:40.210 And then eventually the pro-choice movement said, well, you know, 0:29:40.210 --> 0:29:42.410 you don't care about women, you just care about saving babies. 0:29:42.410 --> 0:29:43.890 And then and then we respond and say, no, we 0:29:43.890 --> 0:29:46.330 care about women plus babies. And so for many people today, 0:29:46.330 --> 0:29:49.050 the issue is basically one side. It's a woman plus 0:29:49.050 --> 0:29:51.890 a question mark, which has been kind of devalued, if 0:29:51.890 --> 0:29:54.530 you will, or gone from something that's immutable to something 0:29:54.530 --> 0:29:57.410 that's changeable and flexible. And the other side of the argument, 0:29:57.410 --> 0:29:59.610 the pro-life argument, is about a woman plus a baby. 0:29:59.810 --> 0:30:03.310 But when you look at that framework, someone's excluded from that, 0:30:03.310 --> 0:30:05.990 which is the guy. And so I told I told 0:30:05.990 --> 0:30:08.870 the reporter, I reject your entire framing. I think that 0:30:08.870 --> 0:30:12.229 this issue has two sanctities the sanctity of marriage and 0:30:12.230 --> 0:30:15.630 family and the sanctity of life. And when you have 0:30:15.670 --> 0:30:17.150 look at the issue that way, which is a pro 0:30:17.150 --> 0:30:19.430 abundant life way of looking at this issue, what you 0:30:19.430 --> 0:30:21.750 find is that men are included in that because you 0:30:21.750 --> 0:30:25.550 cannot have God's design for family without men. And as 0:30:25.550 --> 0:30:27.870 I talked about earlier, look at the solution that you 0:30:27.870 --> 0:30:30.630 have there. Because 87% of the women who have abortions 0:30:30.630 --> 0:30:32.950 are unmarried. And you know the other thing, too, you know, 0:30:32.950 --> 0:30:35.790 when you ask me the question about men in this issue, 0:30:35.830 --> 0:30:38.790 you know, the reality is that the evil one knows 0:30:39.110 --> 0:30:42.710 the role that a man can play in saving the life. 0:30:43.150 --> 0:30:46.750 That's why Adam was compelled to be silent. That's why 0:30:46.950 --> 0:30:50.390 at an abortion clinic, these men are compelled not to come. 0:30:50.910 --> 0:30:54.310 Not to be involved because they know what God knows. 0:30:54.310 --> 0:30:56.910 That when a man steps in and taps into his 0:30:56.910 --> 0:31:00.570 inner Joseph, that lives are lives are transformed. That there's 0:31:00.570 --> 0:31:03.970 not just life, but abundant life. Jesus was given not 0:31:03.970 --> 0:31:07.170 just life in his humanity, but abundant life in his humanity, 0:31:07.250 --> 0:31:09.890 and then became abundant life for us all. So God 0:31:09.890 --> 0:31:13.010 has a design, a design for family that includes men 0:31:13.050 --> 0:31:16.210 and very engaged. And also God has a design for 0:31:16.210 --> 0:31:18.690 life which includes men. They are part of the production 0:31:18.690 --> 0:31:20.610 of life. And they're supposed to be there not just 0:31:20.610 --> 0:31:23.970 from conception but ongoing, which is God's design for family, 0:31:23.970 --> 0:31:25.570 which the evil one wants to thwart. 0:31:26.610 --> 0:31:29.370 What about the father who says to the woman that 0:31:29.370 --> 0:31:33.050 he is impregnated? Well, the decision is yours. You know, 0:31:33.090 --> 0:31:35.010 whatever decision you make is fine with me. 0:31:36.090 --> 0:31:38.530 Yeah. You know, it sounds like that. That is an 0:31:38.530 --> 0:31:41.490 affirming decision. But the reality is, the way that women 0:31:41.490 --> 0:31:45.850 hear that is not that that he's taking responsibility. And unfortunately, 0:31:46.010 --> 0:31:47.770 in the culture, we've kind of told men that that's 0:31:47.770 --> 0:31:51.330 the responsible thing to say. But she knows that that's 0:31:51.330 --> 0:31:52.970 not the responsible thing to say. I mean, think about 0:31:52.970 --> 0:31:55.410 it this way. I always tell folks, if a woman 0:31:55.410 --> 0:31:57.630 tells a guy that she's pregnant, it's not because she 0:31:57.630 --> 0:32:01.070 wants to hear. I support what decision you make. She 0:32:01.070 --> 0:32:04.430 knows that. The reality is she doesn't need his support. 0:32:04.470 --> 0:32:06.990 And frankly, if she truly, truly, truly wanted to have 0:32:06.990 --> 0:32:09.830 the abortion, she probably wouldn't tell him why. She wouldn't 0:32:09.830 --> 0:32:12.630 want any pressure. I believe that when a woman tells 0:32:12.630 --> 0:32:15.190 a guy that she's pregnant, in most of these cases, 0:32:15.190 --> 0:32:18.950 there's the pregnant pause and she's waiting for the response. 0:32:19.070 --> 0:32:21.950 I think she's hoping against hope that he will respond 0:32:21.950 --> 0:32:25.310 to her in the same way that Joseph responded to Mary, 0:32:25.350 --> 0:32:28.190 hoping against hope. Otherwise, why tell him? Why tell him. 0:32:28.510 --> 0:32:30.350 So that's one of the things that we encourage folks 0:32:30.350 --> 0:32:32.590 in the pregnancy centers to do. You know, when, when, 0:32:32.590 --> 0:32:34.670 when you ask the woman, well, you know, does the 0:32:34.670 --> 0:32:36.990 father know? And if she says, well, yes or no, 0:32:36.990 --> 0:32:38.910 if she says, well, no, he doesn't. Well, why didn't 0:32:38.910 --> 0:32:40.670 you tell him? And if she says yes, he does. 0:32:40.710 --> 0:32:43.430 He does. Why did you tell him? I guarantee you 0:32:43.430 --> 0:32:45.709 it's not because she was just hoping and praying. He 0:32:45.710 --> 0:32:48.390 would say, I support whatever decision you make. That's a 0:32:48.430 --> 0:32:51.830 non-answer answer. And every woman knows at that moment that 0:32:51.830 --> 0:32:55.690 she's all alone, that she's facing this mountain of missing support. 0:32:55.690 --> 0:32:58.650 And that's what leads too often to the abortion decision. 0:32:59.450 --> 0:33:01.570 Earlier we talked about the role of the church in 0:33:01.570 --> 0:33:04.690 all of this. And I know that there are pastors 0:33:04.690 --> 0:33:08.410 who really draw back from publicly talking about this whole 0:33:08.410 --> 0:33:13.410 issue because they don't want to offend their congregation and 0:33:13.410 --> 0:33:17.370 because different members might have different ideas on this. What 0:33:17.370 --> 0:33:19.170 would you say to pastors today? 0:33:20.210 --> 0:33:23.130 Well, I think one of the the challenges that pastors have, 0:33:23.170 --> 0:33:25.290 and in a lot of ways, I think, frankly, the 0:33:25.290 --> 0:33:28.810 pro-life movement in a sense or advocacy approach to this 0:33:28.810 --> 0:33:31.730 issue actually framed this. We we essentially took the issue 0:33:31.730 --> 0:33:34.209 and we gave it to the politics in a lot 0:33:34.210 --> 0:33:36.810 of ways. We sort of exchanged the pulpit for the 0:33:36.810 --> 0:33:39.610 podium and we gave it to the politics. And so 0:33:39.610 --> 0:33:43.010 for so many folks, the issue in the church is 0:33:43.010 --> 0:33:46.370 viewed as a political issue rather than being viewed in 0:33:46.370 --> 0:33:48.570 a biblical sense. You know, one of the things I do, 0:33:48.570 --> 0:33:49.890 I talk to a lot of pastors, and I remember 0:33:49.890 --> 0:33:51.330 some years ago I was in Texas, a lot of 0:33:51.330 --> 0:33:53.150 pro-life pastors, and I said to them, how him, how 0:33:53.150 --> 0:33:55.950 many became pastors because you wanted to overturn Roe v Wade? 0:33:56.190 --> 0:33:58.510 No one raised their hand. I said, okay, how many 0:33:58.510 --> 0:34:01.190 became pastors because you wanted to end abortion in your lifetime? 0:34:01.270 --> 0:34:04.030 Nobody raised their hand. Then I said, how many became 0:34:04.030 --> 0:34:08.230 pastors because you wanted to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, 0:34:08.230 --> 0:34:11.629 to make disciples for Jesus Christ? Every hand shot up 0:34:11.630 --> 0:34:13.910 in that moment, God gave me an insight that unless 0:34:13.910 --> 0:34:17.670 pastors see this issue as connected to the call of 0:34:17.670 --> 0:34:20.350 the actual central call of the church, it's an issue 0:34:20.350 --> 0:34:23.589 that they care about, but it's not the core mission 0:34:23.590 --> 0:34:25.390 of the church. It's not connected that way. So you 0:34:25.390 --> 0:34:27.350 have Sanctity of Life Sunday, but not sanctity of life 0:34:27.350 --> 0:34:29.109 every day. So one of the things I lay out 0:34:29.110 --> 0:34:31.069 in the book is that the way you really should 0:34:31.070 --> 0:34:33.790 be thinking about the life issue is through the two 0:34:33.830 --> 0:34:36.549 great kind of bookends of the Christian faith, the Great 0:34:36.550 --> 0:34:39.790 Commandment and the Great Commission. All Jesus did was walk 0:34:39.790 --> 0:34:42.469 out living out the great Commandment to fulfill the Great Commission. 0:34:42.469 --> 0:34:45.430 That's the call of every Christian, every pastor, for your 0:34:45.430 --> 0:34:47.790 flock is to help them live out the great commandment 0:34:47.790 --> 0:34:50.910 to fulfill the Great Commission. Well, abortion is connected to 0:34:50.910 --> 0:34:53.810 the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. Why? Because in 0:34:53.810 --> 0:34:57.170 Luke 1027, where a lawyer comes to Jesus and says, 0:34:57.170 --> 0:34:58.770 what must I do to inherit the kingdom of God? 0:34:58.770 --> 0:35:00.850 What does he say? Well, love God with all your heart, 0:35:00.850 --> 0:35:02.489 your soul, your strength and your mind, and love your 0:35:02.489 --> 0:35:05.570 neighbor as yourself. Well, the word for love there is agape, 0:35:05.810 --> 0:35:08.330 which is sacrificial love. And the word for neighbor in 0:35:08.330 --> 0:35:10.969 the Greek means near one or near fellow. Well, a 0:35:10.969 --> 0:35:13.569 woman who's pregnant, the child inside of her is her 0:35:13.570 --> 0:35:16.529 nearest near one. It's near in terms of proximity, and 0:35:16.530 --> 0:35:18.730 it's near in terms of relationship. And the same with 0:35:18.730 --> 0:35:21.569 the guy who got her pregnant. So abortion actually is 0:35:21.570 --> 0:35:25.250 a violation of the great commandment. Why? Because killing your 0:35:25.250 --> 0:35:28.529 neighbor is not an act of love for God. Love 0:35:28.530 --> 0:35:31.370 for neighbor or frankly, love for self. And so I 0:35:31.370 --> 0:35:33.330 think when you start to talk about the issue that 0:35:33.330 --> 0:35:35.170 when you say, well, wait a minute, the reason we 0:35:35.170 --> 0:35:37.850 are focused on the life issue is because we're, we're 0:35:37.850 --> 0:35:41.730 we're called to live out the great commandment. And loving 0:35:41.730 --> 0:35:44.969 the neighbor is part of that process. And the woman 0:35:45.050 --> 0:35:47.690 has a neighbor. She is our neighbor. A and she's 0:35:47.690 --> 0:35:50.589 carrying a neighbor inside of her. and the guy is 0:35:50.590 --> 0:35:53.750 connected as well. So when we engage on this issue, 0:35:53.910 --> 0:35:56.469 it's to follow the mandate of Christ to live out 0:35:56.469 --> 0:35:59.310 the Great commandment. And it's also connected to the Great Commission. 0:35:59.310 --> 0:36:03.189 Why we're supposed to make disciples of who? Our neighbors. Well, 0:36:03.190 --> 0:36:06.830 who's your first discipleship community? As a parent? Your children. 0:36:06.830 --> 0:36:09.830 Killing one of your children is not an act of discipleship. 0:36:10.310 --> 0:36:14.550 So the abortion issue. It's a violation of the Great 0:36:14.550 --> 0:36:18.189 Commandment and the Great Commission. Do you see? And those 0:36:18.190 --> 0:36:20.150 are the two bookends of the Christian faith. And I 0:36:20.150 --> 0:36:21.989 don't care if you call yourself a progressive Christian or 0:36:21.989 --> 0:36:25.030 this Christian. Everyone's called to live out the great commandment 0:36:25.030 --> 0:36:27.630 to fulfill the Great Commission. And I really believe that 0:36:27.670 --> 0:36:29.830 when you start to talk about this issue that way, 0:36:30.030 --> 0:36:33.310 it challenges those in the church, even who are pro-choice, 0:36:33.590 --> 0:36:37.589 even who call themselves pro-choice. Why? Because folks who are 0:36:37.590 --> 0:36:41.190 pro-choice and Christians as well, they also they love the 0:36:41.190 --> 0:36:44.469 great commandment. Why? Because all their social justice work is 0:36:44.469 --> 0:36:46.930 all built on what? The great commandment. Loving your Loving 0:36:46.930 --> 0:36:49.450 your neighbor. So I really believe that as you talk 0:36:49.450 --> 0:36:51.609 about the issue that way from the pulpit and say 0:36:51.810 --> 0:36:54.650 we support the life issue because we are followers of Christ, 0:36:54.650 --> 0:36:56.770 and he gave us two mandates to live out the 0:36:56.770 --> 0:36:59.650 great commandment to fulfill the Great Commission. And we do 0:36:59.650 --> 0:37:02.649 that in every area of of our ministry water for 0:37:02.650 --> 0:37:05.330 the thirsty, food for the hungry, clothes for the naked, 0:37:05.370 --> 0:37:08.250 homes for the homeless, all viewed as great commandment, great 0:37:08.250 --> 0:37:11.490 commission issues. Well, compassion for the pregnant is a great 0:37:11.489 --> 0:37:13.770 commandment and great commission issue as well. 0:37:14.810 --> 0:37:17.969 You know, I think what you just said every pastor 0:37:18.090 --> 0:37:21.690 needs to hear, and I hope if there are listeners 0:37:21.690 --> 0:37:25.450 today who are concerned about this issue, that you will 0:37:25.450 --> 0:37:27.450 get a copy of this book and give it to 0:37:27.450 --> 0:37:30.609 your pastor, because I think if a pastor reads this 0:37:30.610 --> 0:37:34.569 book and understands the things we're talking about today, they're 0:37:34.570 --> 0:37:37.730 going to be more empowered in their own heart to 0:37:37.770 --> 0:37:42.170 to address these issues more in a more direct and 0:37:42.170 --> 0:37:46.910 meaningful way. Well, and why is the approach of negotiation 0:37:46.910 --> 0:37:50.509 based on weeks of gestation, which we hear about. Why 0:37:50.510 --> 0:37:51.469 is that flawed? 0:37:52.230 --> 0:37:55.270 Well, it's flawed for a couple of reasons. Uh, well, 0:37:55.270 --> 0:37:58.470 one is that the the time frame that is typically 0:37:58.469 --> 0:38:02.950 being used 15 weeks, 96% of abortions happen before that. 0:38:02.950 --> 0:38:04.750 In fact, the data that just came out from the 0:38:04.750 --> 0:38:08.270 CDC shows that that the majority of abortions happen before 0:38:08.270 --> 0:38:11.190 13 weeks. The abortion pill has to be used before 0:38:11.190 --> 0:38:14.870 ten weeks. So actually, if you if you are negotiating 0:38:14.870 --> 0:38:17.870 from a 15 week perspective, you actually have already ceded 0:38:17.870 --> 0:38:19.910 the argument. And then 20 weeks, which is where a 0:38:19.950 --> 0:38:22.750 lot of other folks are talking pain-capable that stuff, or 0:38:22.790 --> 0:38:25.830 late term abortion, if you will. Only 1% of abortions 0:38:25.830 --> 0:38:29.549 happen after that. So the reality is that talking about 0:38:29.550 --> 0:38:32.590 from a week space perspective, you've already ceded the argument 0:38:32.590 --> 0:38:34.830 to the other side. But the other reason it's a 0:38:34.830 --> 0:38:39.230 problem is because it undermines the core argument that the 0:38:39.230 --> 0:38:42.830 child is created in the image of God. It's like 0:38:42.870 --> 0:38:46.129 a an incremental approach that undermines your core argument is 0:38:46.130 --> 0:38:48.649 not an incremental approach that you should be using. Like 0:38:48.650 --> 0:38:52.129 there are some incremental approaches like, you know, parental notification. 0:38:52.130 --> 0:38:54.009 That's an incremental approach that you can use. There's some 0:38:54.010 --> 0:38:56.930 other ones. But when you start negotiating based on weeks, 0:38:56.930 --> 0:39:01.490 you're actually saying that you're undermining the basic argument. And 0:39:01.489 --> 0:39:03.770 by the way, the pro-choice side does not do that, 0:39:03.810 --> 0:39:07.490 but they've never negotiated. Why? Because they believe that this 0:39:07.489 --> 0:39:11.210 issue is based on a woman's bodily autonomy. And so 0:39:11.210 --> 0:39:14.090 when you ask them, okay, it's based on bodily autonomy. Absolutely. 0:39:14.090 --> 0:39:17.370 So when can we restrict abortion? They say never. Why? 0:39:17.530 --> 0:39:19.890 Because as you heard, Kamala Harris and others say, look, 0:39:19.930 --> 0:39:22.569 this is a fundamental right now. Then you come to 0:39:22.610 --> 0:39:24.770 our side and we say, okay, this image, this issue 0:39:24.770 --> 0:39:27.810 is based on, you know, Imago Dei. And then then 0:39:27.810 --> 0:39:30.170 they say to us, well, well, when can we, you know, 0:39:30.210 --> 0:39:33.690 allow abortions? And we say, what, six weeks, 15 weeks, 0:39:33.730 --> 0:39:36.810 20 weeks? Do you see the problem? I can't think 0:39:36.810 --> 0:39:40.650 of a single movement that has ever made progress by 0:39:40.650 --> 0:39:45.270 abandoning their convictions by moving from a commitment to their 0:39:45.270 --> 0:39:49.150 convictions to a commitment to the compromise of their convictions. 0:39:49.230 --> 0:39:51.190 And I believe strongly this is one of the reasons 0:39:51.190 --> 0:39:53.709 why we have not had this success. No one is 0:39:53.710 --> 0:39:58.110 drawn to a movement, if you will, that's abandoning its conviction, 0:39:58.110 --> 0:40:01.790 that's compromising its convictions. And we and we've done that 0:40:01.790 --> 0:40:03.350 over time when we get into a kind of a 0:40:03.350 --> 0:40:06.150 weak argument. And frankly, it has a lot to do 0:40:06.150 --> 0:40:07.830 with the fact that the issue's been given to the 0:40:07.830 --> 0:40:13.110 political perspective, which is negotiating around willing to negotiate around 0:40:13.110 --> 0:40:16.189 things as opposed to the moral perspective that is led 0:40:16.190 --> 0:40:20.630 by the pulpit. Yeah, it's a non-negotiable, because why children 0:40:20.630 --> 0:40:24.430 are created in the image of God, their imago dei. 0:40:24.630 --> 0:40:28.390 It's not negotiable. A child cannot have partial life. They 0:40:28.390 --> 0:40:30.710 can either have life or death. And we need to 0:40:30.710 --> 0:40:32.750 be thinking about this issue the same way. And we 0:40:32.750 --> 0:40:35.229 need to be speaking about it that way in the church. 0:40:35.230 --> 0:40:37.870 And as Christians, we need to have that conviction, because 0:40:37.870 --> 0:40:40.570 that's a conviction that's connected to the Word of God 0:40:40.650 --> 0:40:42.570 and and the mandate that he's given us. 0:40:43.770 --> 0:40:47.170 The whole issue of rape and incest. How do you 0:40:47.170 --> 0:40:48.610 deal with those situations? 0:40:49.210 --> 0:40:51.370 Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I've got a whole 0:40:51.370 --> 0:40:54.089 section in the book where I talk about that, and 0:40:54.090 --> 0:40:57.250 it does really go back to the issue of the 0:40:57.250 --> 0:41:00.649 circumstances of a child's conception and birth, should it determine 0:41:00.650 --> 0:41:03.529 their value and their worth. And I also have a 0:41:03.530 --> 0:41:05.650 framework in the book where I talk about compassion pairing. 0:41:05.690 --> 0:41:08.410 Like how do we apportion compassion? Because it is one 0:41:08.410 --> 0:41:11.690 of the most difficult situations that anyone can face. And 0:41:11.690 --> 0:41:13.129 a lot of folks, you know, who will answer that 0:41:13.130 --> 0:41:15.450 question say, well, you know, it's less than 1% of 0:41:15.450 --> 0:41:17.290 abortions are through that. But for the woman that it 0:41:17.290 --> 0:41:20.130 happens to, it's 100% for her. So we have to 0:41:20.130 --> 0:41:23.169 have the utmost compassion for her. But when you think 0:41:23.170 --> 0:41:27.089 about how we apportion compassion, we ask a question. We say, 0:41:27.090 --> 0:41:29.850 who's the more powerful? Who's the more vulnerable? And then 0:41:29.850 --> 0:41:32.810 we apportion compassion based on that. So in this situation, 0:41:32.810 --> 0:41:35.210 that's what I do with compassion pairing. You compare the 0:41:35.210 --> 0:41:38.070 woman to the baby. You say, who's the more powerful? looser, 0:41:38.070 --> 0:41:40.670 more vulnerable. And then how do you apportion compassion? And 0:41:40.670 --> 0:41:43.150 from a pro-life perspective, and frankly, typically in a perspective, 0:41:43.150 --> 0:41:45.509 we say, well, the woman's more powerful, obviously, because the 0:41:45.510 --> 0:41:48.629 abortion is a power issue, it's her empowerment and the 0:41:48.630 --> 0:41:52.430 baby's more vulnerable. And although you have compassion for the woman, 0:41:52.430 --> 0:41:55.109 you have more compassion for the baby. And so you 0:41:55.110 --> 0:41:57.989 give the baby life because the reality is, if you 0:41:57.989 --> 0:42:00.590 don't view it that way, you actually are more compassionate 0:42:00.590 --> 0:42:03.670 for the rapist. If you do the compassion pairing between 0:42:03.670 --> 0:42:06.150 the rapist and the baby. And you say, who's the 0:42:06.150 --> 0:42:08.509 more powerful between the rapist and the baby? You say, well, 0:42:08.510 --> 0:42:10.630 the rapist is more powerful. The baby is more vulnerable. 0:42:10.630 --> 0:42:15.030 But which one dies in the abortion decision? The rapist? No. 0:42:15.150 --> 0:42:17.589 The baby? Yes. And so really, when you start to 0:42:17.590 --> 0:42:20.670 think about it through that lens, you realize that, look, 0:42:20.670 --> 0:42:24.310 the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should not 0:42:24.310 --> 0:42:27.510 determine its value and worth. And with so many women 0:42:27.510 --> 0:42:31.509 who have carried their children to term, they've realized the 0:42:31.510 --> 0:42:34.110 exact thing that I'm talking about. They've refused to allow 0:42:34.110 --> 0:42:38.570 the rapist to extend his power through them, to allow 0:42:38.610 --> 0:42:41.569 them to basically do something where they're taking the life 0:42:41.570 --> 0:42:44.089 of the vulnerable. They refuse to let him have that 0:42:44.090 --> 0:42:46.129 kind of power over him. And so when you hear 0:42:46.130 --> 0:42:48.330 women who've been raped and bring their children into the world, 0:42:48.330 --> 0:42:50.250 that's what they say. That's why they do that. They 0:42:50.250 --> 0:42:53.810 understand instinctively. They do a compassion pairing between the the 0:42:53.850 --> 0:42:56.890 rapist and the baby growing inside of them, as difficult 0:42:56.930 --> 0:42:59.050 as it is. And they say, no, no, I'm not 0:42:59.050 --> 0:43:01.490 going to have more compassion for the rapists by killing 0:43:01.489 --> 0:43:04.410 this child, because then that would make me more like him. 0:43:04.410 --> 0:43:06.689 And I refuse to allow him to have that kind 0:43:06.690 --> 0:43:09.250 of power over me. And that's why these these women are, 0:43:09.530 --> 0:43:12.370 are blessed. And that's why they we call them blessed 0:43:12.370 --> 0:43:14.450 when they when they make that kind of very, very 0:43:14.450 --> 0:43:15.650 difficult decision. 0:43:16.170 --> 0:43:21.850 Yeah. Your wife wrote an open letter to college bound women. 0:43:22.330 --> 0:43:24.890 Can you tell us a little bit about what she said? 0:43:26.410 --> 0:43:29.010 Yeah. You know, it's interesting. My wife's a Texas woman. 0:43:29.489 --> 0:43:31.370 It's a Texas girl. And there was a a young 0:43:31.370 --> 0:43:33.989 lady who was, uh, valedictorian, and she Valedictorian. She was 0:43:33.989 --> 0:43:37.669 giving her speech and and she basically hijacked the the 0:43:37.670 --> 0:43:40.589 event to kind of give a speech about abortion. And 0:43:40.590 --> 0:43:43.190 basically her argument was that, look, if you want to 0:43:43.190 --> 0:43:45.750 have your hopes and your dreams going forward, we have 0:43:45.750 --> 0:43:48.669 to have abortion. And so my wife, you know, wrote 0:43:48.670 --> 0:43:51.830 an open letter to her and the other, uh, young 0:43:51.830 --> 0:43:54.390 young women in the audience, but also just for women 0:43:54.390 --> 0:43:57.509 in general, saying, listen, I've been where you've been, but 0:43:57.510 --> 0:43:59.989 you've never been where I've been. You don't have to 0:44:00.030 --> 0:44:03.109 sacrifice your child for your hopes and your dreams. My 0:44:03.110 --> 0:44:05.750 wife is very accomplished. Went to Princeton undergrad, did very 0:44:05.750 --> 0:44:08.589 well there. Uh, went to Temple Medical School. Was chief 0:44:08.590 --> 0:44:11.630 resident of her program. Was a major in the military. 0:44:11.670 --> 0:44:14.669 I mean, she's just amazingly accomplished. But she will tell 0:44:14.670 --> 0:44:18.109 you that the decision to bring our son into the 0:44:18.110 --> 0:44:21.870 world is the thing that she's most proud of. And 0:44:21.870 --> 0:44:24.589 and as one who's talked to so many women who 0:44:24.630 --> 0:44:27.509 made the opposite decision and now have the degrees and 0:44:27.510 --> 0:44:30.270 all those other things, other things, but they have tremendous 0:44:30.270 --> 0:44:33.490 regret because we know that that when we are most 0:44:33.489 --> 0:44:37.250 like God is when we sacrifice ourselves for the vulnerable, 0:44:37.250 --> 0:44:39.850 which is exactly what Christ did for us, right? He 0:44:39.850 --> 0:44:44.010 emptied himself of his power. He cloaked himself in vulnerability. Right. 0:44:44.050 --> 0:44:47.450 He cloaked himself. And we and he had compassion for us, 0:44:47.570 --> 0:44:50.049 and we know that. And so when a woman like 0:44:50.050 --> 0:44:53.570 my wife makes this decision, that's exactly what she's doing. 0:44:53.770 --> 0:44:56.570 She's more like Christ than anything else. That when we 0:44:56.570 --> 0:44:59.290 are compassionate for the vulnerable, that's when we're most like God. 0:44:59.450 --> 0:45:02.049 And so we want to encourage women to, to to 0:45:02.090 --> 0:45:04.450 do that. And that's why in the book there's a 0:45:04.450 --> 0:45:06.770 bunch of QR codes for certain parts of the book. 0:45:06.770 --> 0:45:09.690 These frameworks I have that apologetic on, like, is the 0:45:09.690 --> 0:45:12.610 pro-choice position consistent with the life and teachings of Christ? 0:45:12.690 --> 0:45:15.210 You can just use your phone, the QR code that 0:45:15.210 --> 0:45:16.810 just send that to someone else, and that letter is 0:45:16.810 --> 0:45:18.770 one of the pieces in there that you can do. 0:45:18.810 --> 0:45:21.250 Send that to someone who's about to head off to college, 0:45:21.250 --> 0:45:23.330 or someone who's facing a pregnancy decision when they're in 0:45:23.330 --> 0:45:27.810 college or high school. There's someone who's made this decision 0:45:27.810 --> 0:45:30.549 and who's been able to move forward. and I really 0:45:30.550 --> 0:45:32.710 think that her example is just such a wonderful example 0:45:32.710 --> 0:45:33.069 of that. 0:45:33.190 --> 0:45:37.270 Yeah. Powerful. Well, Rolland, as we wrap up today, do 0:45:37.270 --> 0:45:40.350 you have hope that hearts are changing on the issue 0:45:40.350 --> 0:45:44.870 of abortion and how can our listeners be more involved? 0:45:45.469 --> 0:45:48.070 Well, I do, but you know, my focus really is 0:45:48.110 --> 0:45:51.790 that the hearts have to change in the church first. Um, 0:45:51.790 --> 0:45:53.669 I one of the first things that I saw that 0:45:53.670 --> 0:45:55.830 just really concerned me was when I looked at the 0:45:55.830 --> 0:45:58.750 data when I first started, was it 65% of the 0:45:58.750 --> 0:46:01.950 women who had abortions professed to be either Catholic or Protestant? 0:46:01.989 --> 0:46:04.390 The Guttmacher data now says about 54%. And I don't 0:46:04.390 --> 0:46:07.510 think it's because less Christians are having abortions, but because 0:46:07.510 --> 0:46:09.950 there's less folks maybe calling themselves Christians. But we have 0:46:09.950 --> 0:46:13.149 an enormous issue in the church. It's the log in 0:46:13.150 --> 0:46:16.310 our eye versus the speck in the culture's eye. So 0:46:16.310 --> 0:46:18.750 you have to start with the church. Jesus didn't start 0:46:18.750 --> 0:46:21.150 with the Samaritans, the Greeks and all these other folks. 0:46:21.150 --> 0:46:23.469 He started with the people of the book. And so 0:46:23.469 --> 0:46:26.069 we actually need to change abortion in the church. So 0:46:26.070 --> 0:46:27.930 that's why if you read the book, there are There 0:46:27.969 --> 0:46:30.089 are ministry models that we have, like our Making Life 0:46:30.090 --> 0:46:32.969 Disciples ministry model, which is designed to get folks in 0:46:32.969 --> 0:46:36.450 the church to create networks, to be able to support 0:46:36.450 --> 0:46:38.969 women and men in the church who are facing pregnancy 0:46:38.969 --> 0:46:41.689 decisions and connect to those who are outside the church, 0:46:41.690 --> 0:46:45.450 who are facing pregnancy decisions. We have to first change 0:46:45.450 --> 0:46:48.410 the church on the life issue first, and I think 0:46:48.410 --> 0:46:51.290 it's one of the things that's been neglected for years 0:46:51.290 --> 0:46:54.130 and years and years. The fact that so many Christians 0:46:54.450 --> 0:46:56.730 are aborting as well. It's one of the reasons when 0:46:56.730 --> 0:47:00.969 you look at the politics, it's the same kind of thing. The, the, 0:47:00.969 --> 0:47:03.969 the state referendums that are passing the margin of difference 0:47:03.969 --> 0:47:07.489 is pro-choice Christians. So we have to start there. And 0:47:07.489 --> 0:47:09.969 one of the illustrations I use with folks that really 0:47:10.010 --> 0:47:12.489 kind of illustrate this point. You know, when Jesus was 0:47:12.489 --> 0:47:16.210 standing before Pilate, Pilate saying, I find no fault in 0:47:16.210 --> 0:47:18.850 Christ and all that kind of stuff, but eventually, what 0:47:18.850 --> 0:47:21.330 did he do? He turned to the crowd. Because every 0:47:21.330 --> 0:47:24.009 politician faces Pilate's dilemma, which is will I give the 0:47:24.010 --> 0:47:25.890 people what will make them happy, even if I'm a 0:47:25.890 --> 0:47:28.590 I'm a sacrifice too vulnerable to do so. Every politician 0:47:28.590 --> 0:47:31.270 faces that now. If you want to change the politics, 0:47:31.270 --> 0:47:33.589 how do you do it? Well, you change the crowd. Well, 0:47:33.590 --> 0:47:35.670 who in the crowd do you start with? And I 0:47:35.670 --> 0:47:37.670 tell people, imagine you were in the crowd and you 0:47:37.670 --> 0:47:40.710 were yelling, Jesus, Jesus! And everybody else is yelling Barabbas. 0:47:40.710 --> 0:47:42.310 And you say, how do I change this crowd? And 0:47:42.310 --> 0:47:44.469 out of the corner of your eye, you see Bartimaeus, 0:47:44.469 --> 0:47:46.989 the blind beggar that Jesus healed, and you see that 0:47:46.989 --> 0:47:49.150 he's yelling Barabbas! What would you do? You go over 0:47:49.150 --> 0:47:51.230 to him and say, Bartimaeus, dude, what are you doing? 0:47:52.350 --> 0:47:54.630 And you know him? And he said, well, the crowd 0:47:54.630 --> 0:47:56.910 and this and the other, you said, yell with me, Jesus! 0:47:56.910 --> 0:47:58.710 You know how he lived out the great commandment to 0:47:58.710 --> 0:48:01.310 fulfill the Great Commission in your life. And he begins 0:48:01.310 --> 0:48:03.150 to yell, Jesus! And then you see out of the 0:48:03.150 --> 0:48:04.509 corner of your eye, it's the woman with the issue 0:48:04.510 --> 0:48:06.830 of blood. In other words, the people that you have 0:48:06.830 --> 0:48:09.109 to start with in the crowd are the people who 0:48:09.150 --> 0:48:11.950 know him, the people who know him. And that's really 0:48:11.950 --> 0:48:16.430 what my book is focused on. First, mobilizing the church 0:48:17.190 --> 0:48:20.670 to be the church inside the church on the life issue. 0:48:20.670 --> 0:48:23.469 And then we will have removed the log in our 0:48:23.469 --> 0:48:25.009 eyes so we so we can see the speck in 0:48:25.010 --> 0:48:28.129 the culture's eye to have the transformation. Transformation starts in 0:48:28.130 --> 0:48:30.650 the church to the culture, not the other way around. 0:48:30.650 --> 0:48:33.330 And that's the difference between being pro-life and pro abundant life. 0:48:33.330 --> 0:48:35.689 And why the alternative to abortion? Why we Must be 0:48:35.690 --> 0:48:38.570 Pro Abundant Life is a book that I, you know, written, 0:48:38.570 --> 0:48:40.850 and why God kind of downloaded this into my brain. 0:48:41.969 --> 0:48:43.890 And I want to thank you for not only being 0:48:43.890 --> 0:48:47.130 with us today on this program, but for writing this book. 0:48:47.130 --> 0:48:49.049 I think it's going to be helpful to many of 0:48:49.050 --> 0:48:51.969 our listeners. And I just want to reiterate what I 0:48:51.969 --> 0:48:55.930 said earlier. If you're in a church, uh, can I 0:48:55.930 --> 0:48:58.370 just challenge you to not only get a copy of 0:48:58.370 --> 0:49:00.930 this book for yourself, but buy one and give it 0:49:00.930 --> 0:49:05.290 to your pastor? Because I think most pastors are they're open. 0:49:05.290 --> 0:49:08.650 They're they're looking for voices to speak into this issue. 0:49:08.890 --> 0:49:12.490 And this book can be a tremendous help to any pastor. 0:49:12.489 --> 0:49:14.569 So thanks again for being with us today. And may 0:49:14.570 --> 0:49:17.730 God continue to give you wisdom in the ministry that 0:49:17.730 --> 0:49:19.210 you're involved in. 0:49:19.210 --> 0:49:20.770 Thank you so much, and thank you for having me 0:49:20.770 --> 0:49:22.350 on the show. I appreciate it so much. 0:49:22.790 --> 0:49:26.030 You can find out more about Roland Warren and the book, 0:49:26.030 --> 0:49:29.590 The Alternative to Abortion Why We Must be pro Abundant 0:49:29.590 --> 0:49:33.910 Life at the website. Building relationships us again go to 0:49:33.950 --> 0:49:36.910 Building Relationships us. 0:49:36.910 --> 0:49:40.590 And next week we open the phone lines for your questions. 0:49:40.950 --> 0:49:43.630 Having a marriage struggle, a parenting concern. 0:49:44.110 --> 0:49:48.950 Call us with your question right now at one 866 424. Gary. 0:49:48.989 --> 0:49:56.870 That's 1-866-424-4279. And don't miss our January Dear Gary broadcast 0:49:56.870 --> 0:49:59.990 in one week. A big thank you to our production 0:49:59.989 --> 0:50:03.990 team Steve Wick and Janice. Backing building relationships with Doctor 0:50:03.989 --> 0:50:07.589 Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association 0:50:07.590 --> 0:50:11.470 with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. 0:50:11.830 --> 0:50:12.750 Thanks for listening.