S1: If you think abortion is a morally neutral consumer product
S1: that women want in need, you're going to approach this
S1: like Coca Cola or like anybody else who sells a
S1: consumer product that you think folks should have. And so
S1: that created an enormous opportunity for us, but also a
S1: challenge in some ways as well.
S2: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S2: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
S2: the president and CEO of Care Net joins us to
S2: talk about why we must be pro abundant life in
S2: our approach to the issue of abortion.
S3: I am really excited to hear Doctor Chapman's discussion today
S3: with Care Nets. Rolland Warren Rollin's new book is the
S3: best I've seen at explaining the concept of being pro
S3: abundant life for everyone in the equation of an abortion decision.
S3: And if you're on the other side of this issue,
S3: I want to challenge you to listen to Rollin's story
S3: and his arguments. I think it will be a be
S3: a helpful discussion for everyone. So if you go to
S3: building relationships us, you'll see our featured resource, the alternative
S3: to Abortion. Why we must be pro abundant life. Just
S3: go to building relationships. Us and Gary, you've been around
S3: a long time, long enough to know what a contentious
S3: issue this has been in the culture and in the church.
S4: Well, that's for sure. Today, in today's world, never would
S4: have thought that we would be at the place we
S4: are now many, many years ago. But I am excited
S4: about our discussion today because this is something that is
S4: so needed in our culture. So looking forward to our
S4: discussion with Rolland.
S3: Well, let's meet him. Rolland Warren is president and CEO
S3: of Care Net, one of the largest networks of crisis
S3: pregnancy centers in North America. A graduate of Princeton University
S3: and the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania,
S3: after 20 years in the corporate world, he spent 11
S3: years as president of the National Fatherhood Initiative. He's the
S3: author of Bad Dads of the Bible Raising Sons of
S3: Promise A guide for Single Mothers of Boys. And our
S3: featured resource today, The Alternative to Abortion. He's married to
S3: Doctor Yvette Lopez Warren and has two adult sons, Jamin
S3: and Justin, and four grandchildren. Find out more at Building
S3: Relationships us.
S4: Well, Rolland, welcome to Building Relationships.
S1: Well, thank you very much. I've been a big fan
S1: of your work for many, many years, so it's just
S1: an honor to have an opportunity to speak to you.
S4: Well thank you. We are glad to have you here
S4: and particularly on this topic. So let's begin with the
S4: work of Carenet and what you've been doing through the
S4: years as an organization. As I understand it, since 2008.
S4: Carenet has helped save the lives of more than a
S4: million babies. Is that true? And can you give us
S4: an overview of that ministry?
S1: Yes, it's absolutely true. I mean, it started actually in 1975,
S1: actually called the Christian Action Council, and was there right
S1: around the time that the Roe decision came down from
S1: the Supreme Court and have been working for years to
S1: help women and men facing pregnancy decisions have compassion, hope
S1: and help and discipleship through the church when they're facing
S1: pregnancy decisions. So we've got a network of over 1249
S1: and counting affiliated pregnancy centers in the US and Canada.
S1: And really, what folks get when they go to these
S1: pregnancy centers is really the help that they need to
S1: make a life decision. We say all the time that
S1: life decisions need life support. And so a pregnancy center
S1: is one of those first steps in that life support
S1: that people need in order to make a pregnancy decision.
S1: And as you know, this issue is front and center
S1: in the culture in every way possible. And so the
S1: work of pregnancy centers across the country needs to be supported,
S1: and it needs to be connected to the broader mission
S1: of the Christian community.
S4: Yeah. Well, your involvement with the issue of abortion goes
S4: back to your college days at Princeton, and you're very
S4: open about this story in your new book. Would you
S4: would you share what happened?
S1: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I, you know, I was
S1: a junior at Princeton, and my girlfriend and my wife
S1: of 42 years was a was a sophomore and we
S1: were Christians on campus. But we were doing stuff that
S1: Christians shouldn't do. And the consequence of that was that
S1: we faced a pregnancy decision. And, you know, it's interesting
S1: because when she went to Student Health Services, you know,
S1: she went to the nurse to get the pregnancy test.
S1: The nurse comes back and says it's positive. And without
S1: taking an extra gulp of air, says, now, of course
S1: you're going to have an abortion. And so my wife
S1: Yvette says, well, I don't want to have an abortion.
S1: I want to get married. The nurse says, well, how
S1: are you going to graduate from Princeton with a baby? And,
S1: you know, Yvette persists a bit and says and says, look,
S1: I want to get married. I want to have my baby.
S1: She says, well, wait, what do you want to do
S1: when you graduate? And David says, I want to become
S1: a doctor. And the nurse is, my gosh, how are
S1: you going to become a doctor with a baby? How
S1: are you going to graduate from Princeton with a baby?
S1: And so, you know, she comes back to the dorm room.
S1: And I always joke, which embarrasses my wife. I say
S1: that we were sitting on the edge of the bed,
S1: which is where we should spend all of our time.
S1: And she gives me this news and, you know, in
S1: my 20 year old way, by God's grace, I say, no,
S1: we're going to move forward with the plan and we're
S1: going to get married. And so that's what we did.
S1: I was 20. She was 19. And we had our
S1: son at Princeton. And, you know, she ended up graduating
S1: with Princeton, not with one child, but with two, because
S1: it's Princeton. You got to overachieve, you know. Ivy League.
S1: So we have two, two babies. And then she went
S1: on to become a doctor. She's been practicing medicine about
S1: 30 years now. So I saw firsthand, obviously, this this
S1: issue and how the temptation to sort of try to
S1: get rid of the problem is there when you when
S1: you see your your future before you and you're not
S1: sure how things are going to work. But I also
S1: saw how God steps into that situation, uh, when when
S1: we were facing this, this pregnancy decision and a lot
S1: of that which I didn't know at the time, frankly,
S1: as a 20 year old, helped me frame the perspective
S1: that I have now, this notion about being pro abundant life,
S1: because what we actually lived out during that time as
S1: a 20 year old, a 19 year old, is the
S1: framework that I'm talking about in this book. And the
S1: way to kind of think about the issue and transition
S1: from being just being pro-life to being pro abundant life.
S1: And we can talk more about that. But that's essentially
S1: where it started.
S4: Well, the experience you went through has to be a
S4: part of why you do what you do today, right?
S1: Oh, absolutely. You know, everything that I've done in terms
S1: of when God called me from the business world, uh, to, uh,
S1: to nonprofit work and then to ministry, it's connected to that.
S1: I grew up without a father. Uh, my mother was
S1: a single mother for, you know, most of my life. Um,
S1: certainly from the time I was 6 or 7, uh,
S1: four kids under the age of eight and with no dad.
S1: So I saw the fatherhood issue firsthand. I lived it,
S1: which kind of motivated me around the book I wrote
S1: about raising Sons of Promise, a guide for single mothers
S1: of boys, and then wrote The Bad Dad of the
S1: Bible Book, based on my work at National Fatherhood Initiative,
S1: became a father very early in life, didn't have a dad.
S1: So that was there. And then those perspectives also informed
S1: the work that I do at night, because the fatherhood
S1: issue and engaging men is a central part of a
S1: abundant life, a way of looking at the life issue. So,
S1: as you've heard probably many times, God doesn't waste pain.
S1: And he certainly didn't waste any of that. And he
S1: all those perspectives that I kind of learned very early on,
S1: God brought together when he called me to the ministry
S1: of opportunity here. And so I brought all that with
S1: me when I, when I came to cabinet.
S4: Yeah. So when someone says, you don't know what it's
S4: like to face unplanned pregnancy for you, that's certainly not true.
S4: I'm sure you must have great empathy for people who
S4: are in that situation and struggling with the decision they're
S4: going to make.
S1: No, absolutely. You know, it's it's what you're challenged with is,
S1: you know, are you going to sacrifice your yourself for
S1: the vulnerable or are you going to sacrifice the vulnerable
S1: for yourself? And, you know, that's really kind of what
S1: makes us human if you think about it. I mean,
S1: the essence of compassion is that you you make the decision, right?
S1: To not sacrifice the vulnerable for yourself, but to sacrifice
S1: yourself for the vulnerable. And that's really what the parenting
S1: decision is. And that's why we call, you know, mothers
S1: who who make this decision to bring their child into
S1: the world even though they can't necessarily see the future.
S1: That's why we call them blessed. I mean, that's why
S1: Mary was called blessed. She she didn't sacrifice the vulnerable
S1: Christ inside of her for herself. She sacrificed herself for
S1: the vulnerable. And so that's what's before us. And that's
S1: why it's a righteous decision when you choose to bring
S1: your child into the world. And I kind of live
S1: that out. And I saw that with my wife. And
S1: that's why I call her blessing? Of course. Because, you know,
S1: even though it was a situation where she could have
S1: gone the other way, the reality was that she made
S1: that that choice. And I'll tell you, you know, the
S1: story of Mary was really one of the things that
S1: motivated me around this perspective that I have around the
S1: life issue, because, see, Mary was facing an unplanned pregnancy
S1: from a human perspective. She had hopes and dreams for
S1: her life that didn't include a child at this time
S1: and in this way. And the angel comes to her
S1: and gives her this news. And Mary had all these questions,
S1: I'm sure, swirling around in her head. What's my family
S1: going to say? You know, how am I going to
S1: take care of this child? What's Joseph going to say?
S1: And in the midst of all that, she didn't focus
S1: on the uncertainty of what she didn't know. She focused
S1: on the certainty of what she did. There was a
S1: life growing inside of her. And it wasn't a life
S1: worth sacrificing, but a life worth sacrificing for. And when
S1: I started with Karen, and I realized that the work
S1: that we're called to do, the ministry we are called
S1: to do, is really helping women tap into their inner Mary.
S1: My wife, though, the way she got pregnant, was obviously
S1: very different from Mary. The reality was the same after
S1: the conception, which was what was my family going to say?
S1: What's my father going to say? All my hopes and
S1: my dreams. And like Mary, she didn't focus on the
S1: uncertainty of what she didn't know. She focused on the what?
S1: On the certainty of what she did. Yeah. And so
S1: that's a key part of this. This work is really
S1: trying to help women tap into their inner Mary to
S1: ascribe to themselves the virtue and the character of Mary. Mhm.
S4: I'm guessing that looking back on your life at the
S4: age of 20, when all of this happened, that had
S4: an impact on your relationship with God at that juncture?
S4: Would that be true? There was there was a real
S4: a step of real growth in your life at that juncture?
S1: Absolutely. You know, children change everything. And, you know, it's
S1: interesting because the parenting process, you know, is a process
S1: that God uses to help you in terms of your
S1: spiritual formation. Right? To become more holy, to be more
S1: like God, if you will. And that's what we're called
S1: to do as Christians. And so, you know, it absolutely.
S1: Is that that perspective where when when I was faced
S1: with this decision and we decided to get married and
S1: then we had a decision to make in terms of
S1: whether we were going to walk with, with Christ or
S1: not and how we were going to do that. And
S1: you have to trust, I mean, when we it's kind
S1: of an interesting thing now. It's probably more scary when
S1: I look at it now, but we had no visible
S1: means of support. Uh, when we decided to get married,
S1: our parents basically said, okay, you guys want to get married? Well,
S1: you're going to be adults and you're on your own.
S1: So really, we got no financial support from anyone else,
S1: which not necessarily what I would recommend, but that was
S1: the reality that we that we faced in that moment.
S1: And we just watched God just again and again and
S1: again come through, provide us the means to be able
S1: to ourselves and our child and, and then all these
S1: things that, you know, the nurse had told her would
S1: never happen. But they all happened because, you know, with God,
S1: everything is possible.
S4: Um, yeah. Roland, earlier you mentioned the word abundant, not
S4: just pro-life, but pro abundant life. Let's talk about that phrase.
S4: And what makes you emphasize that and what what is
S4: that communicating to you?
S1: Well, that really comes from John 1010, where Christ said,
S1: I came that you might have life and then have
S1: that life abundantly. And you know, Jesus in that, in
S1: that passage is talking about two types of life. He's
S1: talking about physical life, which is kind of the Greek
S1: word bios, bios. But he's also talking about a unique
S1: type of spiritual life that only comes from a relationship
S1: with God, which is Zoe. So essentially, what he's basically
S1: saying is, I came to link your bios to my
S1: Zoe that you might be heartbeats that are heaven bound.
S1: And so when I started this work with, with the
S1: pro-life movement, and I realized that so much of the
S1: focus was on bios, but not on Zoe. In other words,
S1: saving the baby, if you will. It's God honoring, of course.
S1: But when you think about this from a Christian perspective,
S1: it's not just about saving the baby. It's not just
S1: about helping the woman. It goes way beyond that. We're
S1: called for kids to not just have physical life, if
S1: you will, but also to have eternal life, which means
S1: that you've got to think about this issue in that way.
S1: And so the insight God gave me in that moment
S1: was that Jesus wasn't just pro life, he was pro
S1: abundant life. How do we know? Because he said, I
S1: came that you might have life and have that life abundantly.
S1: And so when God downloaded that into my head about,
S1: you know, about ten years ago, and I started talking
S1: about that and thinking about that and studying the Scripture
S1: that way, I realized that there was a need to
S1: expand how you think about this issue, so that you
S1: anchor it fully in the call of Christ. Christ wasn't
S1: just pro life, he was pro abundant life. He said,
S1: I came to have life and have that life abundantly.
S1: And so, hey, you can be an atheist and be
S1: pro-life because you're solving for BS, but you can't be
S1: an atheist and be pro abundant life because you're solving
S1: for bias. And Zoe and I think as Christians, we're
S1: called to go beyond just what an atheist would would
S1: be called to. And that's really where the pro abundant
S1: life perspective comes from and how it's laid out in
S1: the book, and I explain that in more detail.
S4: Yeah, I like that. I like that very much. I
S4: know that many, many women face this issue and sometimes,
S4: you know, husband's involved and sometimes they're just they're single.
S4: But what are some of the reasons that go through
S4: a woman's mind that lead her to, to want an abortion?
S1: Well, it's interesting because, you know, going back to my
S1: own situation and going back to the story of Mary
S1: and Joseph, you know, what did God do to make
S1: sure that Mary's unplanned pregnancy wasn't a crisis pregnancy? He
S1: didn't give her a social services program. Right. What he
S1: did was he called Joseph to be a husband to
S1: her and a father to the child growing inside of her. See,
S1: because Joseph, in a lot of ways faced the same
S1: dilemma as any abortion minded man. He had hopes for
S1: his life, dreams for his life that didn't include a
S1: child at this time and in this way. And he
S1: actually had a plan. He was going to divorce her quietly.
S1: And the angel comes to Joseph and says, what? Do
S1: not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. In
S1: other words, what you see in the story of the
S1: birth of Christ in that nativity narrative is that God's
S1: response to an unplanned pregnancy and the vulnerability of the
S1: woman and the vulnerability of the child was what? To
S1: create a family, to call the man, to step into
S1: the role, to be a husband to her and a
S1: father to the child growing inside of her. And I
S1: would add, the first thing that God did, the angel
S1: said to Joseph was, do not be afraid to take
S1: Mary as your. What? Baby mama. No wife. So in
S1: the story of Mary and Joseph, what you find is
S1: two sanctities the sanctity of marriage and family as God
S1: designed and the sanctity of life. And one of my
S1: observations was, when you look at the life issue in
S1: terms of how we've kind of looked at this for many,
S1: many years, we focus on the sanctity of life, but
S1: we didn't focus on the sanctity of marriage and family,
S1: which is why in many cases, people focus on helping
S1: the woman save the baby, but not engaging the man
S1: and not calling him like God did to be a
S1: husband to her and a father to the child growing
S1: inside of her. And I'll just say the data actually
S1: shows the problem with that. 87% of the women that
S1: have abortions are unmarried. 87%. So you can explain to me,
S1: how are you going to solve the abortion issue without
S1: solving the sanctity of marriage and family issue? And we,
S1: the people of the book should be very much focused
S1: on that. And we kind of lost our way, in
S1: my view, when we started to focus on this issue.
S1: From a perspective, in my view, that's not pro abundant life,
S1: but just pro life. And so that's a key part
S1: of being pro abundant life. That first pillar is God's
S1: design for family, which means that you're not just trying
S1: to save the baby, help the mother, but you're reaching
S1: the father. You're engaging him. You're inspiring him. God sent
S1: an angel to Joseph and called him into a role.
S1: And in the same way, frankly, I was called into
S1: the same role. My wife was in a similar dilemma,
S1: and what was the reason why she was less likely
S1: to have an abortion? Well, by God's grace, God called
S1: to me in the same way to Joseph to be
S1: a husband to her and to the father to the
S1: child growing inside of her. Do you see? So this
S1: is what it means to be pro abundant life. You're
S1: expanding this perspective, but you're anchoring it in the nativity
S1: narrative in the first chapter of the first book of
S1: the New Testament.
S4: Yeah. I'm just thinking of the fathers that might be
S4: listening to us today. Who out of wedlock, you know,
S4: impregnated a woman. And how many of them were ever
S4: challenged to become the husband and then the father of
S4: that child?
S1: Well, you know, that's one of the problems. Candidly, I
S1: think for many years we've treated men the same way
S1: that the other side has treated them. Right. So the
S1: guys sitting out in the parking lot at Planned Parenthood,
S1: they don't want him to come in. They don't want
S1: him to do that. They don't want to be involved
S1: in this. It's her body. It's her choice. They want
S1: him to act like Adam, right? Because really, if you
S1: think about the first abortion act was actually in the
S1: garden because she said, what? My body, my choice. In
S1: other words, I'll take this fruit and do with it
S1: what I want, because I know what's better for me
S1: than you do. And what did Adam do? He stood silent. Well,
S1: that's the same thing that the evil one wants on
S1: this issue. And frankly, when you actually look at the data,
S1: you know, we did a national survey with LifeWay, and
S1: we surveyed women who had abortions, and we asked them,
S1: who did you talk to about your abortion decision? We
S1: have a long list of folks, their mother, their best friend.
S1: Planned Parenthood, all that. Number one was the father of
S1: the baby, the guy who got her pregnant. Then we said,
S1: who was the most influential in your decision to abort?
S1: Guess who it was again? The father of the baby.
S1: Did the same survey with Post-abortive men. Right. Ask them,
S1: who did she talk to about the abortion decision? Same list.
S1: He said me. Then ask them who was the most
S1: influential in her decision to abort. Once again he said, me.
S1: So here's the woman who has the abortion, the guy
S1: who supported the abortion, both saying that he's the most
S1: influential in the decision to abort. And yet, for years,
S1: we've done nothing to really engage him in the same
S1: way that God sent an angel, a direct like like
S1: Joseph didn't get a Smurf or a gnome or something.
S1: He got an angel just like Mary. It was an
S1: equal call for him to step into that role. And
S1: so being pro abundant life, you you're trying to build
S1: a strong family. And if you build a strong family,
S1: just like in our case, we faced one unplanned pregnancy.
S1: We didn't return again to that same situation. Why? Because
S1: we built a family. Isn't that what we want? Isn't
S1: that the hope that we have? Isn't that what we're
S1: called to do? I mean, the woman at the well,
S1: Jesus met her how many times? Once because she was transformed.
S1: And so I believe that if you have a abundant
S1: life perspective, if you're focused on God's design for family,
S1: which means you're trying to engage men, calling them into
S1: the role of fatherhood. If you can, to the best
S1: of your ability. And that needs to be a primary
S1: initiative of any pro abundant life perspective and pro abundant
S1: life approach.
S4: Yeah. That's powerful. Tell us about the chart that changed
S4: things for you. The missing support chart.
S1: Oh, yes. I'm a business guy by training, so there's
S1: got to be a chart. I've got an MBA that's
S1: got to be a chart. And so when I first
S1: started carrying it, I said, Lord, help me understand this
S1: issue and I want to put it on one page.
S1: And so I drew this chart which folks who get
S1: the book will see. It changed my life and basically
S1: what the chart is called. It's support needed by mothers
S1: and children, physical, emotional, spiritual and social support. And I
S1: drew out a graph that basically kind of laid that out,
S1: the kind of support that they need. And then, you know,
S1: at the sort of, I guess the x axis of
S1: the chart really talks about time conception all the way
S1: to birth and then ongoing to your child's 18. And
S1: then I drew a line to the right of that
S1: chart saying that support needed by mothers and children increases
S1: over time. And I realized that a woman is making
S1: the pregnancy decision from conception to birth. But her real
S1: issue and challenge is the missing support after birth. And
S1: if she can't solve that missing support, she's much more
S1: likely to have the the abortion. That's what the nurse
S1: was talking to my wife about. How are you going?
S1: How are you going? How are you going? And if
S1: a woman can't solve that, even if you're loving her
S1: up quite a bit from conception to birth, the reality is,
S1: it's about nine months and one second. Well, God is wise.
S1: He has a design to give women the support that
S1: they need from birth. Ongoing. It's called what? From conception
S1: on going, which is called what? Husbands and fathers. That's
S1: why women who have that. A guy who said that
S1: to them are less likely to have an abortion. So
S1: that chart really just framed everything for me. And from
S1: a ministry model perspective, I realized that yes, we need
S1: pregnancy centers to provide that initial support in those kind
S1: of situations. But the reality is that if you walk
S1: into a pregnancy center with a ten year old, there's
S1: nothing they can do for you. Their support is limited here.
S1: So you have to be doing a couple of things.
S1: The first thing is we have to be working aggressively
S1: to engage men, which is what care nets affiliated pregnancy
S1: centers do. And I lay that out in the book
S1: in great detail. But then there's a second piece to
S1: that missing support, which is the call of the church
S1: to step into this issue in a very significant way
S1: beyond the way that it's been framed in the past.
S4: I wanted to talk about that later on, for sure,
S4: because I think it's desperately needed, and I think many
S4: churches and leaders wrestle with how how do they best
S4: get involved in this? Let me go to another subject.
S4: What has the abortion pill done to this whole issue?
S1: Well, it's changed it dramatically. You know, as a business guy,
S1: when I first came to this work, you know, I
S1: looked at, you know, Planned Parenthood and the abortion providers,
S1: not just through ministry glasses. So you can see that
S1: there's destruction of life and all of that. But I
S1: put my business glasses on and I realize this is
S1: a consumer marketing company. They believe that abortion is a
S1: morally neutral consumer product that women want and need. And
S1: I realized that they have a problem in that their
S1: product distribution was limited to the physical location. In other words,
S1: it wasn't mobile, it wasn't mobile. And frankly, we actually
S1: had an advantage because no one ever walks into a
S1: pregnancy center and goes, I saw the the accent wall,
S1: the window treatments and everything. I knew I could never
S1: abort my baby. They always say it's because of how
S1: I was loved and people are mobile. So we had
S1: the ability to even turn a Starbucks into a pregnancy
S1: center because we can reach people and love them there. Well,
S1: as a business person, I look at that, said, they
S1: got a problem and they know they got a problem.
S1: So they need to figure out a way to delink
S1: their product and their service from the physical location. Thus
S1: the abortion pill. And it's been very aggressive in terms
S1: of how they've marketed this. So now, you know, about 63%
S1: of abortions are now through the pill. They've been able
S1: to turn every apartment room, dorm room, bathroom, bedroom into
S1: an abortion clinic overnight because of the abortion pill. It's
S1: an absolute game changer. And for business people, which is
S1: the way they think about this. If you think abortion
S1: is a morally neutral consumer product that women want in need,
S1: you're going to approach this like Pepsi or Coca Cola,
S1: or like anybody else who sells a consumer product that
S1: you think folks should have. And so that's created an
S1: enormous opportunity for us, but also a challenge in some
S1: ways as well.
S4: Yeah. Well, you know, I found that there are there
S4: are some people who admit, you know, that an unborn
S4: child is a human being. And yet they say, but
S4: the mother's rights trumped the child's rights. Talk about that.
S4: You mentioned a little bit about that earlier, but talk
S4: about that.
S1: Yeah. I really do. I think that, you know, when
S1: you start to have that perspective where you're not actually
S1: looking at the baby in the womb as a life,
S1: and you or you say it's a life worth sacrificing. Right.
S1: You actually move yourself into a perspective that you're saying
S1: that the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should
S1: determine its value and worth. So, for example, I'm a
S1: black man like this all day, right? Slaveholders never were
S1: confused about the fact that black people were human. They
S1: just believed that they were life worth sacrificing for their
S1: for their wealth. It's the same thing that's happened. It's
S1: the same thing that's happening here, right? And so there's
S1: a parallel between between those two things. And so the
S1: transformation that needs to happen in people's hearts and minds
S1: is that you need to start having those discussions with
S1: people to say, wait a minute. Do you believe that
S1: the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should determine
S1: its value and worth? Now, I think as a culture
S1: and a society, we rejected that. Like, that's why babies
S1: who were born out of wedlock used to be called
S1: illegitimate or bastards or whatever, right? We don't do that anymore. Why?
S1: Because we say, you know what? The circumstances of a
S1: child's conception and birth should not determine its value and worth.
S1: And when you have that perspective, you actually line yourself
S1: up with people throughout history who have done the most inhumane,
S1: most abhorrent things in the human, in the human condition.
S1: And so really having that conversation with folks is important.
S1: I think the other thing that kind of links into
S1: this is that people have a perception about how life begins,
S1: and we start to think about life as, as if
S1: it actually is constructed as opposed to it develops. In
S1: other words, like a baby is not like a Tesla
S1: coming off an assembly line. Like you ask yourself a question,
S1: when does a Tesla actually become a Tesla? I mean,
S1: when does it when they put the wheels on the
S1: nameplate and win? Well, the reality is never intrinsically a Tesla. Why?
S1: Because at any moment you can take it and turn
S1: it into a toaster and some rubber floor mats. Right.
S1: Babies are not constructed in the womb. They develop in
S1: the womb in the same way that a Polaroid picture
S1: develops when you first take the picture, it's just a
S1: black blob. But in the fullness of time, it develops.
S1: And guess what else? It can't be anything else. So
S1: when you think about this, your conception and birth should
S1: not determine your value and worth. We don't even believe
S1: that even pro-choice people don't even believe that. But what
S1: they've done, they dehumanize the baby so that that framework
S1: that they have in other situations. They don't apply to
S1: this situation. And that's how you end up with people saying, well,
S1: the rights of the rights of this versus the rights
S1: of that.
S2: You're listening to the Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
S2: You can find out more about our guest and featured
S2: resource at Building Relationships us. Rolland Warren is joining us.
S2: He's the CEO and president of Care Net. His latest
S2: book is titled The Alternative to Abortion Why We Must
S2: be Pro Abundant Life. Just go to building relationships us.
S4: Ronald, what do you say to the woman who believes
S4: that men have no right to have an opinion or
S4: a voice in this whole debate?
S1: Yeah, this is one of the one of sort of
S1: the classic challenges that that we have around this issue.
S1: And it's built on sort of a framework that says
S1: that if a person is not as intimately affected by
S1: a particular situation. They have no agency in that situation.
S1: And that's sort of a flawed logic when you think
S1: about it. Because if a person is impacted by a situation,
S1: they should have agency. For example, one of the analogies
S1: I use or illustrations I use with folks is a
S1: woman who's a stay at home mom. Should she have
S1: any say about tax policy? A person who doesn't own
S1: a gun? Should they have any say about gun policy?
S1: Someone who doesn't have children in school? Should they have
S1: any input in terms of a situation with school funding
S1: or a senator who is in Oklahoma? Should they have
S1: any say about what happens with things in other parts
S1: of the country? And in all those cases, you say, well,
S1: of course they do. Why? Because they're impacted by that
S1: in the same way the father of the child. Right.
S1: Even though they're obviously not as connected to the issue
S1: because they're not carrying the child, they still are impacted
S1: by that. And the reality is that if you didn't
S1: have this perspective, I always tell people all the time,
S1: I'm glad we have that perspective, because the argument that
S1: you're making there is the same argument that the South
S1: was making during slavery time. They were saying to the North, look,
S1: no slaves, no say. This argument is no womb, no say.
S1: They were saying to the North, no slaves, no say.
S1: But what do we say when there's an injustice happening here?
S1: So even though we don't have slaves, we still have
S1: an obligation and a responsibility to get involved when there's
S1: an injustice. It's the same thing here. So men should
S1: not take the bait on that. And frankly, the culture
S1: shouldn't take the bait. If someone is affected by a decision,
S1: we want them to have agency in terms of that,
S1: especially when there's an injustice that's taking place, which is
S1: exactly what's happening with the abortion issue, in the same
S1: way that that was happening with the slavery issue.
S4: A reporter once asked if Carenet, the organization that we're
S4: talking about today, was more for the women or for
S4: the baby. What did you how did you answer that question?
S1: Yeah, it's very interesting. I was asked that and I
S1: asked I told the reporter, I said, it's like you're asking,
S1: am I more for breathing in or for breathing out? Right.
S1: I mean, they're both essential to life. I mean, I
S1: reject that entire framework because it really, you know, kind
S1: of led us down a path that actually excluded men
S1: from this conversation. Because when the pro-choice movement sort of
S1: brought the issue to the public square with the with
S1: the role decision, they basically said, this issue is about
S1: a woman. And then a question mark. And then they
S1: started defining the question mark as about the product of
S1: conception choice. It's complicated. And they defined it over time.
S1: And then we sort of responded and said, no, no,
S1: it's about the baby. We have to save the baby.
S1: And then eventually the pro-choice movement said, well, you know,
S1: you don't care about women, you just care about saving babies.
S1: And then and then we respond and say, no, we
S1: care about women plus babies. And so for many people today,
S1: the issue is basically one side. It's a woman plus
S1: a question mark, which has been kind of devalued, if
S1: you will, or gone from something that's immutable to something
S1: that's changeable and flexible. And the other side of the argument,
S1: the pro-life argument, is about a woman plus a baby.
S1: But when you look at that framework, someone's excluded from that,
S1: which is the guy. And so I told I told
S1: the reporter, I reject your entire framing. I think that
S1: this issue has two sanctities the sanctity of marriage and
S1: family and the sanctity of life. And when you have
S1: look at the issue that way, which is a pro
S1: abundant life way of looking at this issue, what you
S1: find is that men are included in that because you
S1: cannot have God's design for family without men. And as
S1: I talked about earlier, look at the solution that you
S1: have there. Because 87% of the women who have abortions
S1: are unmarried. And you know the other thing, too, you know,
S1: when you ask me the question about men in this issue,
S1: you know, the reality is that the evil one knows
S1: the role that a man can play in saving the life.
S1: That's why Adam was compelled to be silent. That's why
S1: at an abortion clinic, these men are compelled not to come.
S1: Not to be involved because they know what God knows.
S1: That when a man steps in and taps into his
S1: inner Joseph, that lives are lives are transformed. That there's
S1: not just life, but abundant life. Jesus was given not
S1: just life in his humanity, but abundant life in his humanity,
S1: and then became abundant life for us all. So God
S1: has a design, a design for family that includes men
S1: and very engaged. And also God has a design for
S1: life which includes men. They are part of the production
S1: of life. And they're supposed to be there not just
S1: from conception but ongoing, which is God's design for family,
S1: which the evil one wants to thwart.
S4: What about the father who says to the woman that
S4: he is impregnated? Well, the decision is yours. You know,
S4: whatever decision you make is fine with me.
S1: Yeah. You know, it sounds like that. That is an
S1: affirming decision. But the reality is, the way that women
S1: hear that is not that that he's taking responsibility. And unfortunately,
S1: in the culture, we've kind of told men that that's
S1: the responsible thing to say. But she knows that that's
S1: not the responsible thing to say. I mean, think about
S1: it this way. I always tell folks, if a woman
S1: tells a guy that she's pregnant, it's not because she
S1: wants to hear. I support what decision you make. She
S1: knows that. The reality is she doesn't need his support.
S1: And frankly, if she truly, truly, truly wanted to have
S1: the abortion, she probably wouldn't tell him why. She wouldn't
S1: want any pressure. I believe that when a woman tells
S1: a guy that she's pregnant, in most of these cases,
S1: there's the pregnant pause and she's waiting for the response.
S1: I think she's hoping against hope that he will respond
S1: to her in the same way that Joseph responded to Mary,
S1: hoping against hope. Otherwise, why tell him? Why tell him.
S1: So that's one of the things that we encourage folks
S1: in the pregnancy centers to do. You know, when, when,
S1: when you ask the woman, well, you know, does the
S1: father know? And if she says, well, yes or no,
S1: if she says, well, no, he doesn't. Well, why didn't
S1: you tell him? And if she says yes, he does.
S1: He does. Why did you tell him? I guarantee you
S1: it's not because she was just hoping and praying. He
S1: would say, I support whatever decision you make. That's a
S1: non-answer answer. And every woman knows at that moment that
S1: she's all alone, that she's facing this mountain of missing support.
S1: And that's what leads too often to the abortion decision.
S4: Earlier we talked about the role of the church in
S4: all of this. And I know that there are pastors
S4: who really draw back from publicly talking about this whole
S4: issue because they don't want to offend their congregation and
S4: because different members might have different ideas on this. What
S4: would you say to pastors today?
S1: Well, I think one of the the challenges that pastors have,
S1: and in a lot of ways, I think, frankly, the
S1: pro-life movement in a sense or advocacy approach to this
S1: issue actually framed this. We we essentially took the issue
S1: and we gave it to the politics in a lot
S1: of ways. We sort of exchanged the pulpit for the
S1: podium and we gave it to the politics. And so
S1: for so many folks, the issue in the church is
S1: viewed as a political issue rather than being viewed in
S1: a biblical sense. You know, one of the things I do,
S1: I talk to a lot of pastors, and I remember
S1: some years ago I was in Texas, a lot of
S1: pro-life pastors, and I said to them, how him, how
S1: many became pastors because you wanted to overturn Roe v Wade?
S1: No one raised their hand. I said, okay, how many
S1: became pastors because you wanted to end abortion in your lifetime?
S1: Nobody raised their hand. Then I said, how many became
S1: pastors because you wanted to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ,
S1: to make disciples for Jesus Christ? Every hand shot up
S1: in that moment, God gave me an insight that unless
S1: pastors see this issue as connected to the call of
S1: the actual central call of the church, it's an issue
S1: that they care about, but it's not the core mission
S1: of the church. It's not connected that way. So you
S1: have Sanctity of Life Sunday, but not sanctity of life
S1: every day. So one of the things I lay out
S1: in the book is that the way you really should
S1: be thinking about the life issue is through the two
S1: great kind of bookends of the Christian faith, the Great
S1: Commandment and the Great Commission. All Jesus did was walk
S1: out living out the great Commandment to fulfill the Great Commission.
S1: That's the call of every Christian, every pastor, for your
S1: flock is to help them live out the great commandment
S1: to fulfill the Great Commission. Well, abortion is connected to
S1: the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. Why? Because in
S1: Luke 1027, where a lawyer comes to Jesus and says,
S1: what must I do to inherit the kingdom of God?
S1: What does he say? Well, love God with all your heart,
S1: your soul, your strength and your mind, and love your
S1: neighbor as yourself. Well, the word for love there is agape,
S1: which is sacrificial love. And the word for neighbor in
S1: the Greek means near one or near fellow. Well, a
S1: woman who's pregnant, the child inside of her is her
S1: nearest near one. It's near in terms of proximity, and
S1: it's near in terms of relationship. And the same with
S1: the guy who got her pregnant. So abortion actually is
S1: a violation of the great commandment. Why? Because killing your
S1: neighbor is not an act of love for God. Love
S1: for neighbor or frankly, love for self. And so I
S1: think when you start to talk about the issue that
S1: when you say, well, wait a minute, the reason we
S1: are focused on the life issue is because we're, we're
S1: we're called to live out the great commandment. And loving
S1: the neighbor is part of that process. And the woman
S1: has a neighbor. She is our neighbor. A and she's
S1: carrying a neighbor inside of her. and the guy is
S1: connected as well. So when we engage on this issue,
S1: it's to follow the mandate of Christ to live out
S1: the Great commandment. And it's also connected to the Great Commission.
S1: Why we're supposed to make disciples of who? Our neighbors. Well,
S1: who's your first discipleship community? As a parent? Your children.
S1: Killing one of your children is not an act of discipleship.
S1: So the abortion issue. It's a violation of the Great
S1: Commandment and the Great Commission. Do you see? And those
S1: are the two bookends of the Christian faith. And I
S1: don't care if you call yourself a progressive Christian or
S1: this Christian. Everyone's called to live out the great commandment
S1: to fulfill the Great Commission. And I really believe that
S1: when you start to talk about this issue that way,
S1: it challenges those in the church, even who are pro-choice,
S1: even who call themselves pro-choice. Why? Because folks who are
S1: pro-choice and Christians as well, they also they love the
S1: great commandment. Why? Because all their social justice work is
S1: all built on what? The great commandment. Loving your Loving
S1: your neighbor. So I really believe that as you talk
S1: about the issue that way from the pulpit and say
S1: we support the life issue because we are followers of Christ,
S1: and he gave us two mandates to live out the
S1: great commandment to fulfill the Great Commission. And we do
S1: that in every area of of our ministry water for
S1: the thirsty, food for the hungry, clothes for the naked,
S1: homes for the homeless, all viewed as great commandment, great
S1: commission issues. Well, compassion for the pregnant is a great
S1: commandment and great commission issue as well.
S4: You know, I think what you just said every pastor
S4: needs to hear, and I hope if there are listeners
S4: today who are concerned about this issue, that you will
S4: get a copy of this book and give it to
S4: your pastor, because I think if a pastor reads this
S4: book and understands the things we're talking about today, they're
S4: going to be more empowered in their own heart to
S4: to address these issues more in a more direct and
S4: meaningful way. Well, and why is the approach of negotiation
S4: based on weeks of gestation, which we hear about. Why
S4: is that flawed?
S1: Well, it's flawed for a couple of reasons. Uh, well,
S1: one is that the the time frame that is typically
S1: being used 15 weeks, 96% of abortions happen before that.
S1: In fact, the data that just came out from the
S1: CDC shows that that the majority of abortions happen before
S1: 13 weeks. The abortion pill has to be used before
S1: ten weeks. So actually, if you if you are negotiating
S1: from a 15 week perspective, you actually have already ceded
S1: the argument. And then 20 weeks, which is where a
S1: lot of other folks are talking pain-capable that stuff, or
S1: late term abortion, if you will. Only 1% of abortions
S1: happen after that. So the reality is that talking about
S1: from a week space perspective, you've already ceded the argument
S1: to the other side. But the other reason it's a
S1: problem is because it undermines the core argument that the
S1: child is created in the image of God. It's like
S1: a an incremental approach that undermines your core argument is
S1: not an incremental approach that you should be using. Like
S1: there are some incremental approaches like, you know, parental notification.
S1: That's an incremental approach that you can use. There's some
S1: other ones. But when you start negotiating based on weeks,
S1: you're actually saying that you're undermining the basic argument. And
S1: by the way, the pro-choice side does not do that,
S1: but they've never negotiated. Why? Because they believe that this
S1: issue is based on a woman's bodily autonomy. And so
S1: when you ask them, okay, it's based on bodily autonomy. Absolutely.
S1: So when can we restrict abortion? They say never. Why?
S1: Because as you heard, Kamala Harris and others say, look,
S1: this is a fundamental right now. Then you come to
S1: our side and we say, okay, this image, this issue
S1: is based on, you know, Imago Dei. And then then
S1: they say to us, well, well, when can we, you know,
S1: allow abortions? And we say, what, six weeks, 15 weeks,
S1: 20 weeks? Do you see the problem? I can't think
S1: of a single movement that has ever made progress by
S1: abandoning their convictions by moving from a commitment to their
S1: convictions to a commitment to the compromise of their convictions.
S1: And I believe strongly this is one of the reasons
S1: why we have not had this success. No one is
S1: drawn to a movement, if you will, that's abandoning its conviction,
S1: that's compromising its convictions. And we and we've done that
S1: over time when we get into a kind of a
S1: weak argument. And frankly, it has a lot to do
S1: with the fact that the issue's been given to the
S1: political perspective, which is negotiating around willing to negotiate around
S1: things as opposed to the moral perspective that is led
S1: by the pulpit. Yeah, it's a non-negotiable, because why children
S1: are created in the image of God, their imago dei.
S1: It's not negotiable. A child cannot have partial life. They
S1: can either have life or death. And we need to
S1: be thinking about this issue the same way. And we
S1: need to be speaking about it that way in the church.
S1: And as Christians, we need to have that conviction, because
S1: that's a conviction that's connected to the Word of God
S1: and and the mandate that he's given us.
S4: The whole issue of rape and incest. How do you
S4: deal with those situations?
S1: Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I've got a whole
S1: section in the book where I talk about that, and
S1: it does really go back to the issue of the
S1: circumstances of a child's conception and birth, should it determine
S1: their value and their worth. And I also have a
S1: framework in the book where I talk about compassion pairing.
S1: Like how do we apportion compassion? Because it is one
S1: of the most difficult situations that anyone can face. And
S1: a lot of folks, you know, who will answer that
S1: question say, well, you know, it's less than 1% of
S1: abortions are through that. But for the woman that it
S1: happens to, it's 100% for her. So we have to
S1: have the utmost compassion for her. But when you think
S1: about how we apportion compassion, we ask a question. We say,
S1: who's the more powerful? Who's the more vulnerable? And then
S1: we apportion compassion based on that. So in this situation,
S1: that's what I do with compassion pairing. You compare the
S1: woman to the baby. You say, who's the more powerful? looser,
S1: more vulnerable. And then how do you apportion compassion? And
S1: from a pro-life perspective, and frankly, typically in a perspective,
S1: we say, well, the woman's more powerful, obviously, because the
S1: abortion is a power issue, it's her empowerment and the
S1: baby's more vulnerable. And although you have compassion for the woman,
S1: you have more compassion for the baby. And so you
S1: give the baby life because the reality is, if you
S1: don't view it that way, you actually are more compassionate
S1: for the rapist. If you do the compassion pairing between
S1: the rapist and the baby. And you say, who's the
S1: more powerful between the rapist and the baby? You say, well,
S1: the rapist is more powerful. The baby is more vulnerable.
S1: But which one dies in the abortion decision? The rapist? No.
S1: The baby? Yes. And so really, when you start to
S1: think about it through that lens, you realize that, look,
S1: the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should not
S1: determine its value and worth. And with so many women
S1: who have carried their children to term, they've realized the
S1: exact thing that I'm talking about. They've refused to allow
S1: the rapist to extend his power through them, to allow
S1: them to basically do something where they're taking the life
S1: of the vulnerable. They refuse to let him have that
S1: kind of power over him. And so when you hear
S1: women who've been raped and bring their children into the world,
S1: that's what they say. That's why they do that. They
S1: understand instinctively. They do a compassion pairing between the the
S1: rapist and the baby growing inside of them, as difficult
S1: as it is. And they say, no, no, I'm not
S1: going to have more compassion for the rapists by killing
S1: this child, because then that would make me more like him.
S1: And I refuse to allow him to have that kind
S1: of power over me. And that's why these these women are,
S1: are blessed. And that's why they we call them blessed
S1: when they when they make that kind of very, very
S1: difficult decision.
S4: Yeah. Your wife wrote an open letter to college bound women.
S4: Can you tell us a little bit about what she said?
S1: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. My wife's a Texas woman.
S1: It's a Texas girl. And there was a a young
S1: lady who was, uh, valedictorian, and she Valedictorian. She was
S1: giving her speech and and she basically hijacked the the
S1: event to kind of give a speech about abortion. And
S1: basically her argument was that, look, if you want to
S1: have your hopes and your dreams going forward, we have
S1: to have abortion. And so my wife, you know, wrote
S1: an open letter to her and the other, uh, young
S1: young women in the audience, but also just for women
S1: in general, saying, listen, I've been where you've been, but
S1: you've never been where I've been. You don't have to
S1: sacrifice your child for your hopes and your dreams. My
S1: wife is very accomplished. Went to Princeton undergrad, did very
S1: well there. Uh, went to Temple Medical School. Was chief
S1: resident of her program. Was a major in the military.
S1: I mean, she's just amazingly accomplished. But she will tell
S1: you that the decision to bring our son into the
S1: world is the thing that she's most proud of. And
S1: and as one who's talked to so many women who
S1: made the opposite decision and now have the degrees and
S1: all those other things, other things, but they have tremendous
S1: regret because we know that that when we are most
S1: like God is when we sacrifice ourselves for the vulnerable,
S1: which is exactly what Christ did for us, right? He
S1: emptied himself of his power. He cloaked himself in vulnerability. Right.
S1: He cloaked himself. And we and he had compassion for us,
S1: and we know that. And so when a woman like
S1: my wife makes this decision, that's exactly what she's doing.
S1: She's more like Christ than anything else. That when we
S1: are compassionate for the vulnerable, that's when we're most like God.
S1: And so we want to encourage women to, to to
S1: do that. And that's why in the book there's a
S1: bunch of QR codes for certain parts of the book.
S1: These frameworks I have that apologetic on, like, is the
S1: pro-choice position consistent with the life and teachings of Christ?
S1: You can just use your phone, the QR code that
S1: just send that to someone else, and that letter is
S1: one of the pieces in there that you can do.
S1: Send that to someone who's about to head off to college,
S1: or someone who's facing a pregnancy decision when they're in
S1: college or high school. There's someone who's made this decision
S1: and who's been able to move forward. and I really
S1: think that her example is just such a wonderful example
S1: of that.
S4: Yeah. Powerful. Well, Rolland, as we wrap up today, do
S4: you have hope that hearts are changing on the issue
S4: of abortion and how can our listeners be more involved?
S1: Well, I do, but you know, my focus really is
S1: that the hearts have to change in the church first. Um,
S1: I one of the first things that I saw that
S1: just really concerned me was when I looked at the
S1: data when I first started, was it 65% of the
S1: women who had abortions professed to be either Catholic or Protestant?
S1: The Guttmacher data now says about 54%. And I don't
S1: think it's because less Christians are having abortions, but because
S1: there's less folks maybe calling themselves Christians. But we have
S1: an enormous issue in the church. It's the log in
S1: our eye versus the speck in the culture's eye. So
S1: you have to start with the church. Jesus didn't start
S1: with the Samaritans, the Greeks and all these other folks.
S1: He started with the people of the book. And so
S1: we actually need to change abortion in the church. So
S1: that's why if you read the book, there are There
S1: are ministry models that we have, like our Making Life
S1: Disciples ministry model, which is designed to get folks in
S1: the church to create networks, to be able to support
S1: women and men in the church who are facing pregnancy
S1: decisions and connect to those who are outside the church,
S1: who are facing pregnancy decisions. We have to first change
S1: the church on the life issue first, and I think
S1: it's one of the things that's been neglected for years
S1: and years and years. The fact that so many Christians
S1: are aborting as well. It's one of the reasons when
S1: you look at the politics, it's the same kind of thing. The, the,
S1: the state referendums that are passing the margin of difference
S1: is pro-choice Christians. So we have to start there. And
S1: one of the illustrations I use with folks that really
S1: kind of illustrate this point. You know, when Jesus was
S1: standing before Pilate, Pilate saying, I find no fault in
S1: Christ and all that kind of stuff, but eventually, what
S1: did he do? He turned to the crowd. Because every
S1: politician faces Pilate's dilemma, which is will I give the
S1: people what will make them happy, even if I'm a
S1: I'm a sacrifice too vulnerable to do so. Every politician
S1: faces that now. If you want to change the politics,
S1: how do you do it? Well, you change the crowd. Well,
S1: who in the crowd do you start with? And I
S1: tell people, imagine you were in the crowd and you
S1: were yelling, Jesus, Jesus! And everybody else is yelling Barabbas.
S1: And you say, how do I change this crowd? And
S1: out of the corner of your eye, you see Bartimaeus,
S1: the blind beggar that Jesus healed, and you see that
S1: he's yelling Barabbas! What would you do? You go over
S1: to him and say, Bartimaeus, dude, what are you doing?
S1: And you know him? And he said, well, the crowd
S1: and this and the other, you said, yell with me, Jesus!
S1: You know how he lived out the great commandment to
S1: fulfill the Great Commission in your life. And he begins
S1: to yell, Jesus! And then you see out of the
S1: corner of your eye, it's the woman with the issue
S1: of blood. In other words, the people that you have
S1: to start with in the crowd are the people who
S1: know him, the people who know him. And that's really
S1: what my book is focused on. First, mobilizing the church
S1: to be the church inside the church on the life issue.
S1: And then we will have removed the log in our
S1: eyes so we so we can see the speck in
S1: the culture's eye to have the transformation. Transformation starts in
S1: the church to the culture, not the other way around.
S1: And that's the difference between being pro-life and pro abundant life.
S1: And why the alternative to abortion? Why we Must be
S1: Pro Abundant Life is a book that I, you know, written,
S1: and why God kind of downloaded this into my brain.
S4: And I want to thank you for not only being
S4: with us today on this program, but for writing this book.
S4: I think it's going to be helpful to many of
S4: our listeners. And I just want to reiterate what I
S4: said earlier. If you're in a church, uh, can I
S4: just challenge you to not only get a copy of
S4: this book for yourself, but buy one and give it
S4: to your pastor? Because I think most pastors are they're open.
S4: They're they're looking for voices to speak into this issue.
S4: And this book can be a tremendous help to any pastor.
S4: So thanks again for being with us today. And may
S4: God continue to give you wisdom in the ministry that
S4: you're involved in.
S1: Thank you so much, and thank you for having me
S1: on the show. I appreciate it so much.
S3: You can find out more about Roland Warren and the book,
S3: The Alternative to Abortion Why We Must be pro Abundant
S3: Life at the website. Building relationships us again go to
S3: Building Relationships us.
S4: And next week we open the phone lines for your questions.
S4: Having a marriage struggle, a parenting concern.
S2: Call us with your question right now at one 866 424. Gary.
S2: That's 1-866-424-4279. And don't miss our January Dear Gary broadcast
S2: in one week. A big thank you to our production
S2: team Steve Wick and Janice. Backing building relationships with Doctor
S2: Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association
S2: with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
UU: Thanks for listening.