1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:07,840 S1: Oh, I can't wait. Somebody s going to find some 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,959 S1: practical help and hope today at the radio. Backyard fence. Why? 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,680 S1: Because there's a bleary eyed mom or dad or both 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,919 S1: who haven't had a good night's sleep in weeks. That's 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,520 S1: because of a really good change in their lives. They've 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,440 S1: had a baby, a bundle of joy. That bundle also 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,520 S1: has a voice and a different schedule than mom and dad. 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:31,960 S1: So when I read that Dena Thayer, who will join 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,880 S1: us from focus on the Family today, is not only 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,040 S1: a mentor and coach for blended families or those who 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,800 S1: are about to blend, but she is also an infant 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:45,000 S1: sleep consultant. I thought, hey, now there's a conversation we 13 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,080 S1: need to have. I don't know that we've ever had 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,520 S1: this conversation at the back fence, and today we're going 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,800 S1: to do that. One of the big conflicts in my 16 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,160 S1: own parenting journey involves this very issue. I will tell all. 17 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,650 S1: Let's get started first with a thank you to our team, 18 00:01:00,690 --> 00:01:04,130 S1: Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. Trish is our producer. 19 00:01:04,130 --> 00:01:06,930 S1: Josh will be answering your calls today, and I do 20 00:01:06,970 --> 00:01:09,090 S1: encourage you to call us if you have a baby 21 00:01:09,090 --> 00:01:11,850 S1: in the house and you want to ask a question, 22 00:01:11,850 --> 00:01:14,530 S1: or if you are, you could be a grandparent. You 23 00:01:14,530 --> 00:01:17,890 S1: said this is what worked as far as sleep schedule. Uh, 24 00:01:17,890 --> 00:01:22,770 S1: would love to hear from you at (877) 548-3675 helping out 25 00:01:22,770 --> 00:01:25,890 S1: at focus on the family. Our good pal Logan. Logan. 26 00:01:25,890 --> 00:01:28,970 S1: Thanks for doing that. Ryan. When I, uh, point to you, 27 00:01:28,970 --> 00:01:33,370 S1: I want you to play the, um, the baby sound effect. Okay. 28 00:01:33,610 --> 00:01:36,530 S1: Did you get that? All right. Okay. And thanks to 29 00:01:36,530 --> 00:01:38,410 S1: those who support what we do here each day, we 30 00:01:38,450 --> 00:01:41,250 S1: are listener supported. So the people who have given recently 31 00:01:41,250 --> 00:01:44,530 S1: are bringing this conversation to you like Ronald. Tip of 32 00:01:44,530 --> 00:01:47,850 S1: the hat to Ronald and Rosella and Tim. If you 33 00:01:47,850 --> 00:01:51,490 S1: are helped by this conversation, thank them and our back 34 00:01:51,530 --> 00:01:54,570 S1: fence friends and partners and better yet, follow their example. 35 00:01:54,610 --> 00:01:57,250 S1: Become one yourself. Give a gift of any size. Right 36 00:01:57,250 --> 00:02:00,430 S1: now I have chosen a new book by Gary and 37 00:02:00,430 --> 00:02:03,630 S1: the parrots, The Love Language That Matters Most. I'm talking 38 00:02:03,630 --> 00:02:07,710 S1: about Doctor Gary Chapman. Doctors Les and Leslie Parrott. Call 39 00:02:07,710 --> 00:02:10,389 S1: or click through will send you that book and their 40 00:02:10,389 --> 00:02:14,750 S1: new album, Gary and the parrot. It sounds like a 60s, 41 00:02:14,990 --> 00:02:17,470 S1: you know, like Peter, Paul and Mary. But no, we 42 00:02:17,470 --> 00:02:19,310 S1: don't have a CD from them. But we do have 43 00:02:19,310 --> 00:02:24,430 S1: the book give today 86695 Fabbri or Chris Fabbri Livorno. 44 00:02:25,190 --> 00:02:29,070 S1: Why does love get lost in translation? How can you 45 00:02:29,070 --> 00:02:33,429 S1: personalize your love? So it's deeply felt. Discover the love 46 00:02:33,430 --> 00:02:37,630 S1: language that matters most. Which, spoiler alert is the love 47 00:02:37,630 --> 00:02:40,109 S1: language of the person you are trying to show love to. 48 00:02:40,470 --> 00:02:47,030 S1: Call (866) 953-2279. Give a gift of any size like Ronald 49 00:02:47,030 --> 00:02:53,070 S1: and Rosella and Tim or go to Chris Fabbri, Livorno, Fabbri, 50 00:02:53,550 --> 00:02:56,829 S1: Chris Fabbri, Livorno and thank you for being a friend 51 00:02:56,830 --> 00:03:04,680 S1: or partner with us at the radio backyard fence. Yeah. 52 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,800 S1: That's good. That's a great sound. In the middle of 53 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,560 S1: the day. In the middle of the night. It's not 54 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,200 S1: so much. And I want you to hear from Dena 55 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,839 S1: Thayer today. Dean is a podcaster, speaker, and author with 56 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,200 S1: more than 20 years experience in the marriage and parenting sphere. 57 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,040 S1: I don't know, Dena, do you have do you work 58 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,720 S1: in a sphere? It's a great big round office. Is 59 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:27,440 S1: that what you write? 60 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,040 S2: I'm in a bubble. Exactly. 61 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,960 S1: Uh, she originally served as a doula and childbirth educator 62 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,920 S1: before moving into parenting or parent coaching and podcasting, most 63 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,200 S1: recently on focus on the family's crazy little thing called marriage. 64 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,839 S1: For the past decade, Dena and her husband, Scott have 65 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,760 S1: drawn on their stepfamily experience. They blended family ministry through 66 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:53,320 S1: pre-marital coaching and mentoring and small group facilitation. She and 67 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,970 S1: Scott are now empty nesters with five young adult children. 68 00:03:58,290 --> 00:04:02,850 S1: And we have an article linked at Chris Fabbri Livorno 69 00:04:03,210 --> 00:04:06,610 S1: that Dina wrote and that I highly recommend that you 70 00:04:06,610 --> 00:04:09,530 S1: go to If This is Your Life. Dina, how are 71 00:04:09,530 --> 00:04:10,330 S1: you doing today? 72 00:04:10,530 --> 00:04:13,050 S2: I am well, Chris, thanks so much for having me 73 00:04:13,050 --> 00:04:16,250 S2: on to talk about this important issue for parents. 74 00:04:16,490 --> 00:04:19,250 S1: It is important, and I don't know how many in 75 00:04:19,250 --> 00:04:22,490 S1: our listening audience are going to be, you know, young 76 00:04:22,490 --> 00:04:26,050 S1: enough to have little children, infants. But let me start 77 00:04:26,050 --> 00:04:28,570 S1: with this. It says do LA. And I went to 78 00:04:28,610 --> 00:04:31,170 S1: the Cleveland Clinic and looked it up. Doula is a 79 00:04:31,170 --> 00:04:34,850 S1: person who assists you before, during and shortly after childbirth. 80 00:04:34,890 --> 00:04:35,609 S1: Is that true? 81 00:04:35,770 --> 00:04:40,170 S2: That is true. Doula is essentially a labor support person 82 00:04:40,650 --> 00:04:44,650 S2: that acts in a non-clinical capacity. So I wasn't listening 83 00:04:44,650 --> 00:04:47,170 S2: to fetal heart tones or delivering babies, but I was 84 00:04:47,170 --> 00:04:51,530 S2: helping families with maybe breathing or relaxation or different positions 85 00:04:51,529 --> 00:04:54,450 S2: that could get into to help their labor go more smoothly. 86 00:04:54,580 --> 00:04:58,140 S2: and it's a really special thing to be invited into 87 00:04:58,180 --> 00:05:01,300 S2: that day when people become parents. It's really incredible. 88 00:05:01,500 --> 00:05:03,300 S1: Why did you want to become a doula? 89 00:05:04,020 --> 00:05:07,060 S2: I think it really came out of my own birth experience. 90 00:05:07,060 --> 00:05:10,739 S2: I felt very well supported, and I know that's not 91 00:05:10,740 --> 00:05:14,500 S2: the experience of every family. Some families have a harder 92 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:18,020 S2: birth experience, and I had a lovely time. I had 93 00:05:18,020 --> 00:05:21,100 S2: a wonderful midwife. I had other people supporting me and 94 00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:23,820 S2: I thought, wow, if I could be part of providing 95 00:05:23,820 --> 00:05:26,500 S2: that for someone else, that they can walk away from 96 00:05:26,500 --> 00:05:30,220 S2: their birthing day and say, that was empowering. That was transformative. 97 00:05:30,380 --> 00:05:34,060 S2: I felt loved and supported, then that's really meaningful. And 98 00:05:34,060 --> 00:05:37,780 S2: so within five months of having my first child, I 99 00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:41,419 S2: went through doula certification and attended my first birth. 100 00:05:41,740 --> 00:05:44,940 S1: Wow. What is that like for you on that? On 101 00:05:44,980 --> 00:05:45,539 S1: that side? 102 00:05:46,180 --> 00:05:50,980 S2: It's really magical. I have to say, it's pretty incredible. 103 00:05:50,980 --> 00:05:53,020 S2: And I think as a believer, it's pretty special for 104 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,560 S2: me because I believe children are a gift from God. 105 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,159 S2: And we know. Psalm 127 talks about children being a 106 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,800 S2: heritage from the Lord. And so seeing parents kind of 107 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,480 S2: cross over this special bridge from being just a couple 108 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:10,120 S2: to being parents is really, I think it's sacred. And 109 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,000 S2: so to get invited into that, plus it's really intense, right? 110 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,160 S2: There's a lot of big emotions. There's a lot of 111 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,760 S2: big physiological sensations. Some dads are more squeamish than others. 112 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,440 S2: So sometimes I was actually a coach for the coach. 113 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,839 S2: And it's it's really incredible. I was really blessed to 114 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,600 S2: be part of that and part of that day for 115 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,239 S2: many people over, as you mentioned, over two decades. So 116 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,480 S2: a really a really special season in my life. 117 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,479 S1: And there's so much information out there these days. I 118 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,240 S1: remember reading books, you know, the baby name books, and 119 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,719 S1: then expect this in the first month and expect this 120 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,600 S1: and all of that. So but there's something different about 121 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,930 S1: just reading the facts and then actually going through it 122 00:06:52,930 --> 00:06:57,210 S1: and having someone who's been there as well, coming alongside you, 123 00:06:57,250 --> 00:06:59,770 S1: putting an arm around you and say, this is going 124 00:06:59,770 --> 00:07:02,169 S1: to pass, it's okay. That kind of thing. Right? 125 00:07:02,370 --> 00:07:06,090 S2: That's really true. I think the encouragement piece of being 126 00:07:06,089 --> 00:07:09,210 S2: a doula was one of my favorite parts. And the 127 00:07:09,210 --> 00:07:13,250 S2: fact that I had had children myself, I think lent 128 00:07:13,250 --> 00:07:17,650 S2: something to that I could say to a woman in labor, hey, 129 00:07:17,690 --> 00:07:21,690 S2: by what I'm seeing, you're actually almost done. Hang in there. 130 00:07:21,850 --> 00:07:24,370 S2: That's really powerful to someone who's feeling like they might 131 00:07:24,370 --> 00:07:26,250 S2: want to throw in the towel or wave the white 132 00:07:26,250 --> 00:07:29,090 S2: flag of surrender to be able to say, hey, based 133 00:07:29,090 --> 00:07:31,290 S2: on what I'm seeing, you're probably near the finish line. 134 00:07:31,530 --> 00:07:35,010 S2: What an encouragement that can be from someone who can 135 00:07:35,010 --> 00:07:37,610 S2: genuinely say, I've done this. I've been there, I've been 136 00:07:37,610 --> 00:07:42,050 S2: in the trenches of childbirth, and that encouragement piece is 137 00:07:42,050 --> 00:07:45,770 S2: a big part of doula work, advocacy, the encouragement and 138 00:07:45,770 --> 00:07:48,810 S2: the emotional support, not just the physical support. 139 00:07:49,490 --> 00:07:52,140 S1: So you could be a doula at a home birth 140 00:07:52,140 --> 00:07:53,780 S1: or in the hospital, right? 141 00:07:53,860 --> 00:07:57,340 S2: That's correct. Yes, I did home birth, freestanding birth centers 142 00:07:57,340 --> 00:07:59,340 S2: and a lot of hospital births as well. 143 00:07:59,660 --> 00:08:02,140 S1: That's one of the questions that people have is like, 144 00:08:02,180 --> 00:08:04,300 S1: I would really like to do a home birth, but 145 00:08:04,300 --> 00:08:06,500 S1: I'm scared of doing that. You could probably we could 146 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:08,660 S1: do a whole program just on that. But for sure, 147 00:08:08,660 --> 00:08:13,900 S1: you here to to talk about the infant and sleeping. 148 00:08:14,380 --> 00:08:19,620 S1: And when it says that you are an infant, sleep. Uh, what? 149 00:08:19,620 --> 00:08:23,860 S1: What did I say? Consultant. You're not consulting the infant, right? 150 00:08:24,220 --> 00:08:29,980 S2: No. You know, they generally aren't super responsive to my thoughts. So, yes, 151 00:08:29,980 --> 00:08:33,140 S2: I work with the parents. And that really came out 152 00:08:33,140 --> 00:08:35,100 S2: of the doula work. And I think we see this 153 00:08:35,100 --> 00:08:38,340 S2: even in marriage. Right? There's so much prep for the wedding. 154 00:08:38,500 --> 00:08:41,420 S2: But how are we doing a good job supporting couples 155 00:08:41,420 --> 00:08:43,660 S2: in their marriage? And I was starting to feel the 156 00:08:43,660 --> 00:08:47,620 S2: same way. I'm helping, which is incredible. And the birthing 157 00:08:47,620 --> 00:08:50,070 S2: day is important, but I'm doing all this help and 158 00:08:50,070 --> 00:08:52,630 S2: support for that day. But there's so much on the 159 00:08:52,630 --> 00:08:55,790 S2: other side of that, and that just started to stir 160 00:08:55,790 --> 00:08:59,150 S2: within me a passion for the parenting side of things. 161 00:08:59,150 --> 00:09:01,550 S2: And one of the first challenges I would see when 162 00:09:01,550 --> 00:09:05,110 S2: I would meet with my doula clients for their postpartum 163 00:09:05,110 --> 00:09:10,310 S2: visit is, hey, we are exhausted. And so I did 164 00:09:10,309 --> 00:09:13,790 S2: some research and got myself some training around that just 165 00:09:13,790 --> 00:09:15,710 S2: to be able to be a support. I really did 166 00:09:15,710 --> 00:09:17,870 S2: it mostly in a lay capacity, but then it kind 167 00:09:17,910 --> 00:09:20,870 S2: of took off. And it turns out a lot of 168 00:09:20,870 --> 00:09:24,830 S2: parents are really desperate for a good night's sleep and 169 00:09:24,870 --> 00:09:27,470 S2: willing to make some tweaks and changes in order to 170 00:09:27,510 --> 00:09:28,270 S2: get that. 171 00:09:28,630 --> 00:09:30,429 S1: That's what I want to talk about today. When I 172 00:09:30,429 --> 00:09:34,150 S1: heard Deena talk about what she just said, it's like, 173 00:09:34,190 --> 00:09:36,510 S1: I have not heard this. I've heard a lot of 174 00:09:36,510 --> 00:09:38,990 S1: parents say, oh, I can't get any sleep. I've got 175 00:09:38,990 --> 00:09:41,870 S1: the baby. Or, you know, you make jokes about people, hey, 176 00:09:41,870 --> 00:09:44,190 S1: are you getting any sleep? You know, at night when 177 00:09:44,190 --> 00:09:47,590 S1: the baby is crying, you know that they're going through that. So. 178 00:09:47,670 --> 00:09:50,810 S1: So what do you do? So I've invited Dina. I'm 179 00:09:50,809 --> 00:09:53,090 S1: going to open the phone lines if that is where 180 00:09:53,090 --> 00:09:56,929 S1: you are or you have a question or a comment, 181 00:09:56,929 --> 00:09:59,850 S1: maybe a story about how this happened for you a 182 00:09:59,850 --> 00:10:03,210 S1: long time ago. Because for me, there were a couple 183 00:10:03,210 --> 00:10:07,370 S1: of the children that we had who had more problems 184 00:10:07,370 --> 00:10:10,290 S1: sleeping than others. Some it was a breeze. It was 185 00:10:10,290 --> 00:10:12,250 S1: just like, put them in the crib and they're done, 186 00:10:12,290 --> 00:10:15,530 S1: you know, until the morning. But most of the time, 187 00:10:15,530 --> 00:10:18,370 S1: most of especially if you're for the very first time 188 00:10:18,370 --> 00:10:22,170 S1: bringing that infant home and you're not getting that sleep. 189 00:10:22,210 --> 00:10:33,570 S1: Let's talk about it. 877548367518775483675. Dina Thayer is with us today. 190 00:10:33,610 --> 00:10:36,010 S1: We've got a link at the website to that focus 191 00:10:36,010 --> 00:10:42,130 S1: on the family article, infant sleep laying the foundation. Just 192 00:10:42,130 --> 00:10:57,660 S1: go to Chris. We're talking with infant sleep consultant Deena Thayer. 193 00:10:57,980 --> 00:11:03,180 S1: She's a doula. So it's doula. Dee dee dum dee dee. No, 194 00:11:03,220 --> 00:11:05,820 S1: I'm not gonna. That's what first came to my mind, 195 00:11:05,820 --> 00:11:09,300 S1: was thinking do Latina. Okay, so, uh, go to the 196 00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:13,900 S1: website org, you'll see a link to an article about 197 00:11:13,900 --> 00:11:17,860 S1: infant sleep laying the foundation. So and as I recall, 198 00:11:17,900 --> 00:11:20,980 S1: it's been a while when you bring that infant home, 199 00:11:20,980 --> 00:11:25,059 S1: that baby sleeps a lot. Other than eating and being changed, 200 00:11:25,059 --> 00:11:27,420 S1: that baby sleeps a lot, right? Deena. 201 00:11:27,860 --> 00:11:31,540 S2: A lot of times, yes. In the first few days 202 00:11:31,580 --> 00:11:34,179 S2: they're a great snoozer. And then parents are in for 203 00:11:34,179 --> 00:11:37,460 S2: this kind of rude awakening. Now, some babies are stinkers 204 00:11:37,460 --> 00:11:39,420 S2: about that from the start. But yes, you often get 205 00:11:39,460 --> 00:11:43,699 S2: kind of this almost little honeymoon period where you feel 206 00:11:43,700 --> 00:11:46,950 S2: like this baby could sleep through the vacuum or a 207 00:11:46,950 --> 00:11:49,430 S2: dog barking right next to them or what have you. 208 00:11:49,429 --> 00:11:53,670 S2: And then there's that shift, leaving parents going, oh, well, 209 00:11:53,670 --> 00:11:55,750 S2: now what? We thought we had this great sleeper. And 210 00:11:55,750 --> 00:11:58,630 S2: I will say, some babies really are champs at this, 211 00:11:58,990 --> 00:12:02,070 S2: but most babies end up needing some support to kind 212 00:12:02,070 --> 00:12:03,630 S2: of learn how to do this. Well. 213 00:12:04,510 --> 00:12:07,230 S1: By support you mean training. 214 00:12:07,470 --> 00:12:11,630 S2: Yes. The parents kind of taking the lead on helping 215 00:12:11,630 --> 00:12:15,030 S2: them learn, for instance, circadian rhythms, just learning day and 216 00:12:15,030 --> 00:12:18,350 S2: night in the womb. There isn't as much of a 217 00:12:18,350 --> 00:12:21,829 S2: sense of that. They're floating in fluid. Things are changing 218 00:12:21,830 --> 00:12:25,230 S2: all the time, and they're hearing mom's heartbeat and these 219 00:12:25,230 --> 00:12:27,990 S2: different whooshing noises, but they're not maybe as aware of 220 00:12:27,990 --> 00:12:31,550 S2: dark and light through the skin. And maybe the placenta 221 00:12:31,550 --> 00:12:33,870 S2: is in the way. I mean, we have to help 222 00:12:33,870 --> 00:12:37,790 S2: them understand the rhythms of life. And I mentioned that 223 00:12:37,790 --> 00:12:41,949 S2: scripture in Psalms, and I think this is particularly an 224 00:12:41,950 --> 00:12:46,370 S2: important piece for believing parents. Because if we do believe 225 00:12:46,370 --> 00:12:49,370 S2: that our children are a gift, but we also believe 226 00:12:49,690 --> 00:12:53,450 S2: that he's given us this opportunity to steward that gift well, 227 00:12:53,490 --> 00:12:56,610 S2: it means we need to not be afraid of being 228 00:12:56,610 --> 00:12:59,930 S2: that gentle authority in their world and being their first 229 00:12:59,929 --> 00:13:02,530 S2: and best teacher. And one of the first things we 230 00:13:02,530 --> 00:13:05,890 S2: teach our children is day and night and how to 231 00:13:05,890 --> 00:13:08,810 S2: help them sleep. And so I think what can sometimes 232 00:13:08,809 --> 00:13:11,449 S2: trip parents up is even thinking, well, this is mean 233 00:13:11,490 --> 00:13:14,330 S2: to quote sleep train my baby. And there's a lot 234 00:13:14,330 --> 00:13:17,329 S2: of negative connotations with that to which we can unpack. 235 00:13:17,809 --> 00:13:20,210 S2: But I think what we've got to remember is you 236 00:13:20,210 --> 00:13:22,730 S2: are the parent. God's put you in that spot, and 237 00:13:22,730 --> 00:13:25,730 S2: it's actually a real gift to be your child's first 238 00:13:25,730 --> 00:13:28,210 S2: and best teacher about the world. And you do them 239 00:13:28,210 --> 00:13:30,530 S2: a disservice if you don't step into that. 240 00:13:31,130 --> 00:13:33,290 S1: The sleep train. We're going to get on the sleep train. 241 00:13:33,330 --> 00:13:34,490 S3: Get on the sleep train. 242 00:13:34,530 --> 00:13:38,490 S1: Do it today. Okay. Uh, I saw this video the 243 00:13:38,490 --> 00:13:41,810 S1: other day of Michael Junior, the comedian. Yes. And in 244 00:13:41,809 --> 00:13:43,380 S1: one of his. I don't know if you've seen this 245 00:13:43,420 --> 00:13:48,420 S1: in one of his comedic, uh, soirees that he did. 246 00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:51,380 S1: He played a video of his newborn. I think it 247 00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:53,300 S1: was his daughter. Have you seen this? 248 00:13:53,340 --> 00:13:55,260 S2: I haven't seen the video. I've attended one of his 249 00:13:55,260 --> 00:13:57,979 S2: marriage conferences, but I don't think I've seen this video. 250 00:13:58,340 --> 00:14:03,059 S1: He basically said, you know, this is right after the 251 00:14:03,059 --> 00:14:06,260 S1: baby has been born and the baby is just starting 252 00:14:06,260 --> 00:14:09,540 S1: to cry and cry and cry, and it's that newborn cry. 253 00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:11,500 S2: Oh, and then does he start talking to her? 254 00:14:11,540 --> 00:14:14,699 S4: And he's. Yes, I have voice. Yes. 255 00:14:15,179 --> 00:14:18,860 S1: The baby hears his voice and stops and just, you know, 256 00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:23,380 S1: doesn't open her eyes at that point, but it just shows. 257 00:14:23,500 --> 00:14:25,660 S1: And I think he made that point later on, you know. 258 00:14:25,700 --> 00:14:28,340 S1: Whose voice are you listening to? Which is really good. 259 00:14:28,660 --> 00:14:32,460 S1: But the the, uh, the comfort of that voice of 260 00:14:32,460 --> 00:14:35,940 S1: the father and the mother, that's that's huge, isn't it? 261 00:14:35,980 --> 00:14:38,940 S2: It is. And we now know the science shows us 262 00:14:38,940 --> 00:14:42,230 S2: that babies can start to distinguish their parents voices even 263 00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:45,390 S2: in the womb. So that's why we can see a 264 00:14:45,390 --> 00:14:48,590 S2: baby that's literally minutes old, will try and turn its 265 00:14:48,590 --> 00:14:51,190 S2: head toward the sound of its mother's voice or its 266 00:14:51,190 --> 00:14:55,550 S2: father's voice. So there is real power in that. And 267 00:14:55,550 --> 00:14:58,110 S2: it it just shows you how much they're already looking 268 00:14:58,150 --> 00:15:01,630 S2: to you to guide the way. And sleep is one 269 00:15:01,630 --> 00:15:05,110 S2: area where you can do that, but you're exactly right. 270 00:15:05,150 --> 00:15:08,310 S2: The the power of Mom and Dad's voice is not 271 00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:11,230 S2: only is it powerful, but it's soothing to them. And 272 00:15:11,230 --> 00:15:14,750 S2: that makes me think of another amazing scripture in Zephaniah 317. 273 00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:18,750 S2: It says that that God really is our salvation, and 274 00:15:18,750 --> 00:15:21,110 S2: he comforts us with his love. And it says, and 275 00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:23,870 S2: he rejoices over you with singing. And we know a 276 00:15:23,870 --> 00:15:26,190 S2: lot of parents will sing lullabies to their children. And 277 00:15:26,190 --> 00:15:29,390 S2: that's soothing. And it's it brings peace. And I love 278 00:15:29,390 --> 00:15:31,710 S2: just that picture of how our Heavenly Father does this 279 00:15:31,710 --> 00:15:33,950 S2: for us, too. So we should want to do it 280 00:15:33,950 --> 00:15:36,550 S2: for our kids and not see it as this big 281 00:15:36,590 --> 00:15:38,710 S2: speed bump that we just don't want to get over. 282 00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:40,840 S2: It's actually really a gift to be able to help 283 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,240 S2: your children sleep well. Because it also, let's be honest, 284 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,600 S2: helps you sleep well too, right? And that's good because 285 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,360 S2: I'll be honest, when I'm sleep deprived, I don't even 286 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,480 S2: want to be around myself. I'm not pleasant. So this 287 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,480 S2: was partly a necessity for me when I was doing it. 288 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,560 S1: So when you say teach your children, teach your infant 289 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,440 S1: circadian rhythms, how do you do that? 290 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,720 S2: Mhm. So that teaching babies day and night often comes 291 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,880 S2: with some gentle routine. And I'm very aware sleep work 292 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,040 S2: in the, in the years that I've done it I've 293 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,760 S2: seen it, it can be very polarizing. There are a 294 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,320 S2: lot of strong feelings on either end of the spectrum. 295 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,760 S2: There are families who really feel it's important to have 296 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,040 S2: baby on maybe a quite rigid schedule, and there's other 297 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,400 S2: families who truly doing their best, really believe in this 298 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,840 S2: more free form approach. And I kind of just want 299 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,120 S2: to feed my baby when they cry. And we do 300 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,480 S2: a lot of baby wearing, you know, in a sling 301 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,260 S2: or something like that. and neither are good or bad. 302 00:16:41,260 --> 00:16:42,940 S2: I think we have to be careful to kind of 303 00:16:42,980 --> 00:16:46,660 S2: polarize or say there's one right way. You mentioned earlier books, 304 00:16:46,980 --> 00:16:49,340 S2: and that's one area where I think it can get 305 00:16:49,340 --> 00:16:52,700 S2: really sticky, because you could read three books on sleep, 306 00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:56,060 S2: for example, and come away with three completely different philosophies 307 00:16:56,060 --> 00:17:00,140 S2: on how to do it. So it is important to 308 00:17:00,180 --> 00:17:03,740 S2: teach night and day, but what is going to resonate 309 00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:06,540 S2: for how to teach? That might be a little different 310 00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:10,020 S2: from one family to another. So I'll share what I 311 00:17:10,060 --> 00:17:12,340 S2: kind of talk about with my clients. I learn about 312 00:17:12,340 --> 00:17:15,580 S2: them and learn about their parenting styles and what they're 313 00:17:15,580 --> 00:17:19,460 S2: like as people. And what I really encourage parents is 314 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:22,020 S2: I usually say, I don't, I don't so much care 315 00:17:22,060 --> 00:17:25,540 S2: what you pick, but I do encourage you to choose 316 00:17:25,540 --> 00:17:29,900 S2: some kind of framework, whether that is, hey, it resonates 317 00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:32,459 S2: with us to have a schedule or we're going to 318 00:17:32,460 --> 00:17:36,180 S2: be a little more on the attachment parenting freeform side, 319 00:17:36,180 --> 00:17:38,750 S2: or we're going to be somewhere in the middle. But 320 00:17:38,750 --> 00:17:41,510 S2: to choose a framework and to have a strong why 321 00:17:41,550 --> 00:17:44,430 S2: for this hard work of helping your baby sleep makes 322 00:17:44,430 --> 00:17:47,550 S2: such a difference. And I find it's the step most 323 00:17:47,550 --> 00:17:51,270 S2: parents skip. They haven't really thought about the intentionality of 324 00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:54,230 S2: it and the why and when. The what and the 325 00:17:54,270 --> 00:17:56,870 S2: how get hard. Your why is what helps you. There's 326 00:17:56,869 --> 00:17:59,230 S2: that saying that says if you have a strong enough why, 327 00:17:59,390 --> 00:18:02,950 S2: you can tolerate almost any how. And I think especially 328 00:18:02,950 --> 00:18:06,750 S2: in sleep work, nothing could be more true. You've got 329 00:18:06,790 --> 00:18:09,590 S2: to have a reason that you're doing it. There's even 330 00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:11,909 S2: families who will do a combo pack. You've had nine kids, 331 00:18:11,910 --> 00:18:14,750 S2: so you've probably seen a lot of variety pack on 332 00:18:14,950 --> 00:18:17,550 S2: not only the skill level of your child to sleep, 333 00:18:17,550 --> 00:18:19,670 S2: but even how you and your wife approached it over 334 00:18:19,670 --> 00:18:23,270 S2: the years. And so I encourage families think about why 335 00:18:23,710 --> 00:18:26,710 S2: pick some kind of framework to use and operate out 336 00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:28,790 S2: of that. It will help you a ton when things 337 00:18:28,790 --> 00:18:31,109 S2: get challenging. And I did say when, not if. 338 00:18:31,869 --> 00:18:34,669 S1: I now here's why I know that I wanted to 339 00:18:34,670 --> 00:18:37,160 S1: have you on about this, Dina, and I didn't know, 340 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,879 S1: you know, a whole lot other than reading the article. Uh, 341 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,680 S1: because there are people who are very rigid and will say, 342 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,160 S1: you have to do this, and here's what you do. 343 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,280 S1: And a minute and a half of that, you know, 344 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,600 S1: all that kind of stuff. And it's like, I don't 345 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,560 S1: know that I want to I want to foster that. 346 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,560 S1: But I just sensed with you that you would be 347 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,840 S1: sensitive to the, the, the infant as well as the 348 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,720 S1: parents and not give a rigid, you know, one, two, 349 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,280 S1: three a, b, c this is how you have to 350 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:06,879 S1: do it. 351 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,080 S2: That you were correct in that sense. Babies are not 352 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,359 S2: machines or robots. They're all individual people. And they all 353 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,240 S2: respond a little bit differently to the things that we try. 354 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,800 S2: I've even had clients who came back with their second 355 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,239 S2: baby and said, wow, this one just isn't responding to 356 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,760 S2: the things that seemed to work really well with our firstborn. 357 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,560 S2: Could we touch base again about some different strategies? And 358 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,879 S2: I'm always happy to do that because they are people 359 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,090 S2: and they're going to respond differently and parents even change. 360 00:19:38,090 --> 00:19:39,850 S2: We all know if we've been married for any length 361 00:19:39,850 --> 00:19:42,370 S2: of time, the dynamic of your marriage changes over time 362 00:19:42,369 --> 00:19:45,290 S2: as you learn and grow. We need to be considerate 363 00:19:45,290 --> 00:19:48,050 S2: of our babies learning and growing. They are people and 364 00:19:48,050 --> 00:19:50,489 S2: babies are a wonderful way to start people. Don't get 365 00:19:50,490 --> 00:19:53,770 S2: me wrong, they're fun. But we do need to understand 366 00:19:53,770 --> 00:19:56,810 S2: that what works for one family maybe isn't the perfect 367 00:19:56,810 --> 00:20:00,090 S2: answer for another. And some of that even comes down 368 00:20:00,410 --> 00:20:03,530 S2: to your style as a person. Like I'm a real 369 00:20:03,530 --> 00:20:06,610 S2: morning person, for example, and I'm a firstborn, so I 370 00:20:06,609 --> 00:20:10,129 S2: love structure. So bringing some routine into my baby's day 371 00:20:10,170 --> 00:20:12,689 S2: made a lot of sense for me. For another family 372 00:20:12,690 --> 00:20:14,610 S2: who loves to have the days where they just wake 373 00:20:14,609 --> 00:20:17,490 S2: up and spontaneously want to go on a hike, you know, 374 00:20:17,490 --> 00:20:19,770 S2: a schedule might feel really too restrictive for them, and 375 00:20:19,770 --> 00:20:21,330 S2: they need a baby that can just go with the 376 00:20:21,330 --> 00:20:24,170 S2: flow with whatever ends up happening in their day. And 377 00:20:24,170 --> 00:20:27,369 S2: that's why that intention piece becomes so important. You've got 378 00:20:27,410 --> 00:20:30,850 S2: to understand what are we like as people? What are 379 00:20:30,850 --> 00:20:34,149 S2: we like as parents? What is our Lifestyle and how 380 00:20:34,150 --> 00:20:36,590 S2: do we work our baby into that? Because that's the 381 00:20:36,590 --> 00:20:38,830 S2: other thing I think we're seeing a lot in our 382 00:20:38,830 --> 00:20:43,869 S2: society is a lot of this kind of child centered parenting. 383 00:20:44,070 --> 00:20:46,990 S2: And what we know, particularly as Christians, is that children 384 00:20:46,990 --> 00:20:49,510 S2: are a welcome addition to our life, but they were 385 00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:52,310 S2: never designed to be the center of our universe. We 386 00:20:52,310 --> 00:20:55,950 S2: need to steward this gift by being their authority in 387 00:20:55,990 --> 00:20:59,390 S2: that gentle and loving way, but certainly still being that authority. 388 00:20:59,790 --> 00:21:04,030 S2: And so picking based on what are we like? What 389 00:21:04,030 --> 00:21:06,430 S2: is our life like? What's going to work for us 390 00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:10,909 S2: that incorporates your baby into your microcosm of an environment 391 00:21:10,910 --> 00:21:14,270 S2: as a family system. And that's again a gift you 392 00:21:14,270 --> 00:21:16,710 S2: give your child to not set them up to be 393 00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:18,750 S2: really upset when they go out in the world someday 394 00:21:18,750 --> 00:21:20,870 S2: and go, what? I'm not the center of the universe. 395 00:21:20,869 --> 00:21:24,430 S2: What happened here? So this is this is a foundational 396 00:21:24,430 --> 00:21:26,950 S2: piece of that, actually, even in how you parent. 397 00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:28,070 S5: The other struggle. 398 00:21:28,070 --> 00:21:30,790 S1: For new moms and dads is you're really vulnerable. You know, 399 00:21:30,830 --> 00:21:32,560 S1: if you've read all the books and you heard, all 400 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,200 S1: the heard the conflicting advice, and then you have a 401 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,760 S1: parent or a brother or sister who has more children, 402 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,479 S1: you know, down the road a little further. Oh, you 403 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,239 S1: shouldn't do that. You ought to do this. And why 404 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,000 S1: don't you try that, you know, and you can feel 405 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,920 S1: kind of ganged up on with all of that advice 406 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:51,040 S1: that's coming in. 407 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,880 S2: Yes. And that's really demoralizing, too. I think underneath all 408 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,520 S2: of that, parenting is actually pretty vulnerable. We're putting ourselves 409 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,600 S2: out there through these little people. And so when we 410 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:09,920 S2: receive a discouraging comment like that, that's pretty demoralizing and 411 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,040 S2: can even make a parent feel like I'm doing a 412 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,640 S2: bad job. I've had some clients come to me feeling 413 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,800 S2: very defeated. I must be doing this quote wrong, unquote. 414 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,719 S2: Or I had an unfortunate comment from an in-law or 415 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,400 S2: something that's just driven me to kind of question how 416 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,169 S2: I'm going about this. And so I appreciate you bringing 417 00:22:31,170 --> 00:22:34,290 S2: up that point, because I actually think other loved ones 418 00:22:34,290 --> 00:22:37,929 S2: such as the grandparents, aunts and uncles, anyone who maybe 419 00:22:38,250 --> 00:22:42,330 S2: serves as childcare need to be supportive of how the 420 00:22:42,330 --> 00:22:46,090 S2: parents have decided to do it. Not only is that 421 00:22:46,090 --> 00:22:49,570 S2: kind to the parents and doesn't cut them down as 422 00:22:49,570 --> 00:22:54,170 S2: you were just describing, but it also provides beautiful consistency 423 00:22:54,170 --> 00:22:58,050 S2: for the baby, so they aren't experiencing one set of 424 00:22:58,090 --> 00:23:00,050 S2: how we do things with mom and dad, and then 425 00:23:00,050 --> 00:23:03,649 S2: something different at daycare and something different when I'm with grandma, etc. 426 00:23:03,650 --> 00:23:06,370 S2: we want to provide consistency for them so that they 427 00:23:06,369 --> 00:23:09,330 S2: can learn again, not only day and night, but just 428 00:23:09,330 --> 00:23:11,649 S2: kind of learn the rhythms of their own household. 429 00:23:12,090 --> 00:23:14,770 S1: So how old does the infant need to be when 430 00:23:14,770 --> 00:23:18,290 S1: you start implementing these, this framework you're talking about? 431 00:23:18,330 --> 00:23:20,410 S2: Oh, I'm glad you asked this, because this is a 432 00:23:20,410 --> 00:23:23,730 S2: myth that I really enjoy busting. I think a lot 433 00:23:23,730 --> 00:23:26,410 S2: of parents, whether they've read a book or just heard 434 00:23:26,410 --> 00:23:30,260 S2: it somewhere, they think it can be kind of harmful 435 00:23:30,260 --> 00:23:33,379 S2: to start too soon, so to speak. They kind of 436 00:23:33,420 --> 00:23:35,620 S2: falsely believe that if there's any kind of a sleep 437 00:23:35,619 --> 00:23:39,900 S2: plan or structure, we're going to have terrible issues. What 438 00:23:39,900 --> 00:23:42,260 S2: I will say is, in all the years of my 439 00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:45,460 S2: sleep work, I have seen that to rarely be the case. 440 00:23:45,460 --> 00:23:48,619 S2: I actually have seen the opposite more often, where parents 441 00:23:48,660 --> 00:23:51,660 S2: kind of wait too long to make a strategy or 442 00:23:51,660 --> 00:23:54,540 S2: pick a plan, and then they really end up in 443 00:23:54,540 --> 00:23:59,100 S2: some ruts, and those tough habits are much harder to 444 00:23:59,140 --> 00:24:03,580 S2: undo the older the baby is. So I really encourage, yes, 445 00:24:03,580 --> 00:24:05,740 S2: let's be kind to a brand new baby, as you 446 00:24:05,740 --> 00:24:07,980 S2: describe the one who's still snoozing a lot in those 447 00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:12,580 S2: first few days home from the hospital or just getting 448 00:24:12,580 --> 00:24:16,140 S2: settled in. I also think if a family is figuring 449 00:24:16,140 --> 00:24:19,100 S2: out feeding, if mom is nursing, baby needs some time 450 00:24:19,100 --> 00:24:21,740 S2: to learn breastfeeding. Like that's a learning curve and it's 451 00:24:21,740 --> 00:24:24,380 S2: sometimes a steep one. So certainly we want to leave 452 00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:28,300 S2: those precious early days alone. But I've had clients who 453 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,480 S2: even start when a baby is a week to ten 454 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,679 S2: days old and do just fine, and then they've prevented 455 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,879 S2: those issues that crop up for the families who waited. 456 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,320 S2: And now their baby's five months old and only sleeps 457 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,400 S2: laying in their lap while they're sitting up or something bizarre, 458 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,520 S2: you know. So there's there's really not the harm in 459 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,520 S2: starting early that some people think exists. 460 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,760 S1: Okay. So we're going to talk about all of that. 461 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,639 S1: The crib, the, you know, bringing the baby in the bed, 462 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,040 S1: letting the baby sleep in the I'm sure you have 463 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,320 S1: an idea about that. And I want to open the 464 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,000 S1: phone lines, friends, if you are, if this is right 465 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,520 S1: where you are or you have a story about, you know, 466 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:13,200 S1: what happened with your children as you're looking back. (877) 548-3675 467 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:18,240 S1: doula Deena is our guest today. Deena Thayer, podcaster, speaker, 468 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,040 S1: author more than 20 years experience in the marriage and 469 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,320 S1: parenting sphere. Yes, she works in a bubble, and you 470 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,800 S1: can find out more about her and link to that 471 00:25:27,250 --> 00:25:30,689 S1: article from focus on the family. Infant sleep. Laying the 472 00:25:30,690 --> 00:25:37,690 S1: foundation right there. Chris. Chris Fabry lives. You can also 473 00:25:37,690 --> 00:25:40,409 S1: ask a question. Make a comment on our Facebook page 474 00:25:40,410 --> 00:25:46,889 S1: if you'd like, but I'd love to talk with you. (877) 548-3675. 475 00:25:46,930 --> 00:26:06,969 S1: More straight ahead on Moody Radio. I have so many stories. 476 00:26:07,450 --> 00:26:11,010 S1: I want to, uh. I want to give you an 477 00:26:11,010 --> 00:26:14,530 S1: opportunity to speak with Dina Thayer, doula. Dina is with 478 00:26:14,530 --> 00:26:21,450 S1: us today. (877) 548-3675. If this is what you're hearing at night, 479 00:26:21,450 --> 00:26:24,810 S1: I want you to call us right now. Eight. Seven. Seven. 480 00:26:25,780 --> 00:26:26,619 S6: It's gonna be okay. 481 00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:35,220 S1: (877) 548-3675. Uh, Jeff in Akron, Ohio, called. So I gotta 482 00:26:35,220 --> 00:26:37,660 S1: let Jeff in here. Hey, Jeff, why did you call today? 483 00:26:38,660 --> 00:26:42,220 S7: Well, I had a question about REM sleep cycles. And 484 00:26:42,220 --> 00:26:46,100 S7: if she's, uh, if Dina has done any, like, digging 485 00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:50,619 S7: in that or incorporate that into her, you know, advice 486 00:26:50,619 --> 00:26:52,300 S7: and counseling on the subject. 487 00:26:52,820 --> 00:26:56,140 S1: Um, good question. And that's and that's where you you're 488 00:26:56,140 --> 00:26:58,100 S1: really in that deep sleep, right, Jeff? 489 00:26:59,260 --> 00:27:02,260 S7: Well, yeah. And what I learned was that they you 490 00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:06,780 S7: you go through these cycles, it takes about 90 minutes approximately. 491 00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:10,659 S7: So when my daughter was born, I started planning on 492 00:27:10,660 --> 00:27:15,060 S7: her sleep patterns to, to frame those increments, like three hours, 493 00:27:15,060 --> 00:27:17,260 S7: four and a half, six, seven and a half, all 494 00:27:17,260 --> 00:27:19,340 S7: the way to 12. You know, just in those made 495 00:27:19,340 --> 00:27:23,700 S7: sure it was like divisible by 90 minutes and it 496 00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:26,439 S7: seemed to like she would wake up. I would expect 497 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,680 S7: her to wake up around a certain time. She would 498 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,440 S7: wake up around that certain time, and it just kind 499 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,760 S7: of seemed like it fit together. 500 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:33,919 S1: So it. 501 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:34,840 S7: Worked. She had. 502 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,240 S1: It worked for you? Yeah. Okay, great. 503 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,200 S2: I think Jeff has gotten some kind of sneak peek 504 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:45,800 S2: into my infant sleep consulting toolkit here, because this is fascinating. 505 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,000 S2: When I have those families where the routine element does 506 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,840 S2: resonate with them, this is exactly what I recommend. And 507 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,640 S2: for that reason, so that you can get all elements 508 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,560 S2: of the full sleep cycle. So as I said, it's 509 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,560 S2: not for everyone, but for families who are like, hey, 510 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,000 S2: we're up for a schedule, we're up for some routine 511 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,000 S2: because we just need to sleep. I often recommend starting 512 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,639 S2: with a three hour cycle that includes a feeding at 513 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,800 S2: the very beginning of the cycle, then awake time, and 514 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,040 S2: then a nap. It spells f a n because most 515 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,239 S2: families are a fan of it. So you do the 516 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,320 S2: feeding at the front end, say say we're going to 517 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,410 S2: go a 710 one schedule. So 7 a.m. feeding, then 518 00:28:24,410 --> 00:28:27,129 S2: some awake time, then the nap would be 8:30 a.m. 519 00:28:27,130 --> 00:28:29,689 S2: and go till 10 a.m. and then rinse and repeat 520 00:28:29,690 --> 00:28:32,610 S2: like the back of a shampoo bottle. So Jeff is 521 00:28:32,609 --> 00:28:35,610 S2: absolutely onto something that is a routine that babies can 522 00:28:35,609 --> 00:28:39,570 S2: fall into quite beautifully. And then just as they get older, 523 00:28:39,570 --> 00:28:42,570 S2: you can kind of stretch that out so often around 524 00:28:42,570 --> 00:28:44,690 S2: four months because I call it the rule of fours. 525 00:28:44,730 --> 00:28:47,530 S2: At about four months you can go to about four hours. 526 00:28:47,570 --> 00:28:50,410 S2: And I always encourage families. You want the awake time 527 00:28:50,410 --> 00:28:52,570 S2: and the sleep time to be about equal. So in 528 00:28:52,570 --> 00:28:55,090 S2: a three hour cycle you have 90 minutes awake, 90 529 00:28:55,090 --> 00:28:57,290 S2: minutes a nap and a four hour cycle. It's two 530 00:28:57,290 --> 00:29:00,930 S2: hours awake, two hours of nap. So he's absolutely right. 531 00:29:00,930 --> 00:29:03,690 S2: And for families who are kind of paying attention to, hey, 532 00:29:03,690 --> 00:29:05,969 S2: we want them to get into that restorative sleep and 533 00:29:05,970 --> 00:29:08,330 S2: not just take a bunch of cat naps. Then that 534 00:29:08,330 --> 00:29:10,130 S2: piece can be really helpful. 535 00:29:10,690 --> 00:29:11,690 S8: So do you. 536 00:29:11,890 --> 00:29:16,890 S1: Intentionally say, in the morning, afternoon sun's really, really up? 537 00:29:17,090 --> 00:29:21,450 S1: Do you intentionally keep the baby awake for that hour 538 00:29:21,450 --> 00:29:25,980 S1: and a half or two hours by, you wouldn't let 539 00:29:25,980 --> 00:29:29,820 S1: him listen to our program because they'd go to sleep. But, 540 00:29:29,860 --> 00:29:34,220 S1: but but you do you intentionally, you know, stimulate, you know, 541 00:29:34,260 --> 00:29:35,980 S1: keep the baby stimulated. 542 00:29:36,580 --> 00:29:40,180 S2: It's a yes. But, Chris. So here's what I would say. 543 00:29:40,660 --> 00:29:43,980 S2: Babies are all different like we've talked about. And so 544 00:29:44,020 --> 00:29:46,940 S2: the short answer is yes if they can tolerate it. 545 00:29:46,940 --> 00:29:50,020 S2: So sometimes a newer baby really can't go the distance. 546 00:29:50,020 --> 00:29:52,020 S2: They just don't have an hour and a half of 547 00:29:52,020 --> 00:29:55,620 S2: wake time in them yet because they're teeny. And so 548 00:29:55,740 --> 00:29:58,460 S2: you keep them awake until you're maybe seeing those sleep signals, 549 00:29:58,460 --> 00:30:01,860 S2: maybe they're rubbing their eyes or getting a little overstimulated 550 00:30:01,860 --> 00:30:05,100 S2: or just a little cranky, a little fussy. You don't 551 00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:08,340 S2: want to wait until it's full blown over the top, 552 00:30:08,340 --> 00:30:11,340 S2: because then you've often missed the window, so to speak. 553 00:30:11,660 --> 00:30:14,260 S2: So I encourage families, hey, if it hasn't quite been 554 00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:17,100 S2: 90 minutes, but you're seeing those tired cues, just do 555 00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:20,459 S2: the nap. Don't set yourself up for a disaster. Because 556 00:30:20,550 --> 00:30:23,510 S2: what we do know is also a tired baby. It's 557 00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:27,870 S2: so counterintuitive, but they actually fight. Sleep harder. So any 558 00:30:27,870 --> 00:30:30,110 S2: parent who's tried this will be nodding right now as 559 00:30:30,110 --> 00:30:31,950 S2: they're listening. Who said, I think I'm going to try 560 00:30:31,950 --> 00:30:33,790 S2: and keep my baby up later tonight so they'll sleep 561 00:30:33,790 --> 00:30:37,990 S2: in in the morning? Absolutely. It's a dumpster fire. It 562 00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:41,510 S2: will be. It will completely backfire. And what we know. 563 00:30:41,870 --> 00:30:42,870 S1: Will not be something. 564 00:30:42,910 --> 00:30:43,030 S2: You. 565 00:30:43,030 --> 00:30:43,790 S1: Want to go into. 566 00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:45,469 S2: No. I'll want to get in my bubble and get 567 00:30:45,470 --> 00:30:48,350 S2: away from the crying baby is what will happen. So 568 00:30:48,510 --> 00:30:51,670 S2: it's an interesting. And again, it seems counterintuitive, but sleep 569 00:30:51,670 --> 00:30:54,110 S2: begets sleep. And I tell my clients this all the 570 00:30:54,110 --> 00:30:57,710 S2: time a well-rested baby actually sleeps better. So you want 571 00:30:57,750 --> 00:31:00,790 S2: to be encouraging the sleep and not fighting it. But yes, 572 00:31:00,790 --> 00:31:04,230 S2: once they're able to tolerate the 90 minutes awake, then yes, 573 00:31:04,230 --> 00:31:07,590 S2: that's why the awake time happens. After the feeding. You 574 00:31:07,590 --> 00:31:10,229 S2: can maybe do burping, a diaper change, maybe go for 575 00:31:10,230 --> 00:31:12,670 S2: a walk. Maybe they do their little baths, have some 576 00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:15,989 S2: tummy time. You find those little awake time activities to 577 00:31:16,030 --> 00:31:17,630 S2: get them until that nap time. 578 00:31:18,470 --> 00:31:22,330 S1: Bob is in Denver, Colorado. Bob, why'd you call today? 579 00:31:23,690 --> 00:31:26,930 S9: Well, thanks for having me, Chris. I was listening online 580 00:31:26,930 --> 00:31:31,690 S9: and I've enjoyed the conversation with Doctor Thayer, and, um, 581 00:31:32,610 --> 00:31:35,050 S9: I haven't heard everything, so maybe you've covered what I 582 00:31:35,050 --> 00:31:38,330 S9: wanted to ask, but my wife and I disagree on, 583 00:31:38,690 --> 00:31:42,210 S9: you know, whether to let him cry or to. She wants. 584 00:31:42,250 --> 00:31:44,050 S9: She can't tolerate it. She wants to pick him up, 585 00:31:44,050 --> 00:31:46,570 S9: walk with him until he goes to sleep or rock him. 586 00:31:46,730 --> 00:31:49,610 S9: And my mom always said, you let him cry themselves 587 00:31:49,610 --> 00:31:53,730 S9: to sleep and that's better training. So that's my first question. 588 00:31:53,770 --> 00:31:55,690 S1: Okay, wait, wait, let me stop you. Tell me first 589 00:31:55,690 --> 00:31:57,650 S1: who is him? What is his name? 590 00:31:59,010 --> 00:32:00,330 S9: Our son. Who is Josh? 591 00:32:00,650 --> 00:32:02,730 S1: Josh, okay. And how old is Josh? 592 00:32:03,490 --> 00:32:05,090 S9: Josh is four months. 593 00:32:05,250 --> 00:32:08,610 S1: Four months. Okay, perfect. Okay. Uh, and then your second 594 00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:09,490 S1: question was. 595 00:32:10,490 --> 00:32:13,810 S9: Well, I've also heard about sleep training, which I haven't 596 00:32:13,810 --> 00:32:16,370 S9: looked it up. I don't really understand it, but I'm 597 00:32:16,410 --> 00:32:19,300 S9: curious when you should begin that. And are we too 598 00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:20,540 S9: early or too late? 599 00:32:21,060 --> 00:32:23,660 S1: Great. The you are just the person. Because I was 600 00:32:23,660 --> 00:32:24,780 S1: going to tell this story. 601 00:32:25,060 --> 00:32:26,660 S4: Bob, about. This is perfect. 602 00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:29,219 S1: My wife and me, you know, a long time, 40 603 00:32:29,220 --> 00:32:32,979 S1: years ago. Uh, but you're you're doing the exactly the 604 00:32:32,980 --> 00:32:36,300 S1: same thing. So address Bob, and then I'll tell my story. 605 00:32:36,580 --> 00:32:41,500 S2: Yes, yes. So I know parents often don't see this 606 00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:44,660 S2: the same way. And this also is why setting the 607 00:32:44,660 --> 00:32:48,140 S2: intention is so important. Or picking your framework. Because what 608 00:32:48,140 --> 00:32:50,860 S2: I've found is when I do an intake call with 609 00:32:50,860 --> 00:32:54,060 S2: a client, I often start with asking them, what is 610 00:32:54,060 --> 00:32:57,460 S2: your tolerance for crying? And what I find is it's 611 00:32:57,500 --> 00:33:01,220 S2: often different. So maybe the husband is like, hey, it 612 00:33:01,220 --> 00:33:03,860 S2: doesn't really bother me the same way. I can go 613 00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:06,340 S2: maybe 20 minutes before I want to pull my hair out. 614 00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:09,180 S2: And the mom is saying I can only last about 615 00:33:09,180 --> 00:33:11,740 S2: three minutes. And to be fair, sometimes it's vice versa. 616 00:33:11,780 --> 00:33:14,180 S2: Sometimes the mom is a toughie and she can go 617 00:33:14,380 --> 00:33:17,190 S2: a long time and the dad can't. But it's really 618 00:33:17,190 --> 00:33:21,070 S2: worth talking about that first, because there's kind of this 619 00:33:21,350 --> 00:33:23,590 S2: challenge that comes up if you're going to bump into 620 00:33:23,630 --> 00:33:27,110 S2: each other and, and have a have a difficulty where 621 00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:29,150 S2: one of you wants to go and kind of rescue 622 00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:30,950 S2: the baby, pick them up, etc., and one of you 623 00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:32,469 S2: is like, we've got to we've got to stay the 624 00:33:32,470 --> 00:33:36,709 S2: course here. So my suggestion is talk about those crying tolerances. 625 00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:38,950 S2: First see if you can come into alignment. Maybe one 626 00:33:38,950 --> 00:33:41,070 S2: of you needs to come a little bit toward each other, 627 00:33:41,070 --> 00:33:42,550 S2: and you've got to meet in the middle a little. 628 00:33:42,590 --> 00:33:44,590 S2: The one who's more uncomfortable maybe needs to wait a 629 00:33:44,590 --> 00:33:48,150 S2: little longer. The one who's more comfortable maybe needs to 630 00:33:48,150 --> 00:33:50,870 S2: be okay going in a little sooner. But another thing 631 00:33:50,870 --> 00:33:53,070 S2: that can be really helpful is just to kind of 632 00:33:53,110 --> 00:33:55,710 S2: set some time frames. Maybe you say, okay, we're going 633 00:33:55,750 --> 00:33:58,350 S2: to set a timer and we're going to try and 634 00:33:58,350 --> 00:34:00,950 S2: let them work it out for five minutes. And then 635 00:34:00,950 --> 00:34:02,750 S2: if it's not working out, we'll go check on them. 636 00:34:02,790 --> 00:34:05,430 S2: You know, pat their back, talk to them but not 637 00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:07,910 S2: pick them up. I usually recommend if you are slowly 638 00:34:07,910 --> 00:34:10,070 S2: working on sleep training not to pick them up, because 639 00:34:10,070 --> 00:34:11,710 S2: then when you set them down, guess what? You just 640 00:34:11,710 --> 00:34:15,920 S2: started back over at minute zero. So talking together about crying. 641 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,719 S2: Tolerance is big and then talking about maybe some incremental 642 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,800 S2: time frames. After five minutes, maybe you set the timer 643 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,720 S2: for eight. I also want to say here that many 644 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,840 S2: parents don't understand that for a lot of babies, crying 645 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,400 S2: is actually part of their self-soothing routine. It's part of 646 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,399 S2: what they do to fall asleep. And so if we 647 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,040 S2: short circuit that, sometimes we're actually doing them a disservice, 648 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,120 S2: even if we think we're going in to comfort them. 649 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,880 S2: One delightful example I had a mom who her personal 650 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,799 S2: tolerance was ten minutes, so she was always going in 651 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,600 S2: after ten minutes. I met with her and said, today 652 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,200 S2: I'm going to sit with you because I know it's 653 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,959 S2: uncomfortable for you to hear your son cry. And let's 654 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,040 S2: just push that envelope a little bit. This little buddy 655 00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,960 S2: fell asleep after 11 minutes and did that until he 656 00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:04,759 S2: turned two. So his personal sleep cycle was, I need 657 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,080 S2: to cry for 11 minutes and then I'm out. And 658 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,680 S2: she just had never gotten there. So it's really fascinating. 659 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,400 S2: But I also want to hear your story, Chris. So 660 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:13,000 S2: you go ahead. 661 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,859 S1: Well, yeah. Let me get back to Bob before we 662 00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:18,060 S1: before I tell you my story, because it's going to 663 00:35:18,060 --> 00:35:21,020 S1: take about an hour to get this. So, Bob, does 664 00:35:21,020 --> 00:35:23,780 S1: that help for you and your wife, do you think? 665 00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:28,899 S9: Extremely. Because her tolerance is less than ten minutes. So 666 00:35:28,940 --> 00:35:32,020 S9: I will relate that story. Plus we're going to talk 667 00:35:32,020 --> 00:35:36,540 S9: about I need to compromise some. So, uh, and we'll 668 00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:40,140 S9: leave my mother's beliefs out of this and find what 669 00:35:40,140 --> 00:35:43,920 S9: works for us. But I love the ten and 11 670 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,259 S9: minute story about when you sat with that mother. So, uh, 671 00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:51,620 S9: that's great insight. Is there a time where it's too 672 00:35:51,620 --> 00:35:53,419 S9: late to start sleep training? 673 00:35:53,620 --> 00:35:55,580 S2: That is such a good question, and it sounds like 674 00:35:55,620 --> 00:35:57,420 S2: you kind of hopped on maybe midstream. And we did 675 00:35:57,460 --> 00:35:59,860 S2: talk a little bit about there's not really a too soon. 676 00:35:59,860 --> 00:36:02,500 S2: And some parents think that. But I also love this 677 00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:04,940 S2: question because there's really not a too late either. I 678 00:36:04,940 --> 00:36:07,820 S2: feel like if there's listeners here who maybe think, oh, 679 00:36:07,860 --> 00:36:10,739 S2: the ship has sailed, I've missed the boat, you might 680 00:36:10,780 --> 00:36:14,590 S2: have fallen into some tricky sleep habits. But the truth is, 681 00:36:14,590 --> 00:36:17,590 S2: even if you have some less than desirable things going on, 682 00:36:17,590 --> 00:36:20,469 S2: please don't panic. It's rarely too late to make some 683 00:36:20,469 --> 00:36:23,670 S2: meaningful course corrections and get back on track. 684 00:36:23,830 --> 00:36:26,750 S1: Yes. So there's you're saying there's hope? 685 00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:27,430 S4: Yes. 686 00:36:27,469 --> 00:36:28,390 S1: That's what you're saying. 687 00:36:28,430 --> 00:36:29,070 S4: You're saying. 688 00:36:29,070 --> 00:36:32,390 S1: There's hope. Uh, okay. So let me take our final break. 689 00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:34,550 S1: And then when we come back, I'll tell you all 690 00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:36,870 S1: that happened. Bob. God bless you, friend. Thank you for 691 00:36:36,870 --> 00:36:39,710 S1: calling about. And, Josh, give him a big hug for 692 00:36:39,710 --> 00:36:41,790 S1: us and I hope he sleeps through the night real, 693 00:36:41,790 --> 00:36:45,109 S1: real soon. I'll tell you what happened to, uh, the 694 00:36:45,110 --> 00:36:48,109 S1: wife of my youth and myself and the conflict we had. 695 00:36:48,110 --> 00:36:51,110 S1: It's actually the opposite of what Bob just talked about. 696 00:36:51,270 --> 00:37:03,029 S1: We'll do that straight ahead on Chris Fabry live. This 697 00:37:03,030 --> 00:37:05,430 S1: program has gone so quickly. If you know somebody who 698 00:37:05,430 --> 00:37:07,950 S1: has an infant in the home and they're struggling with this, 699 00:37:07,950 --> 00:37:10,790 S1: make sure you tell them you listen to the podcast 700 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,720 S1: with Deena Thayer here on Chris Fabry Live, and send 701 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,840 S1: them to the website. Chris, because that article from focus 702 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,279 S1: on the family infant sleep laying the foundation. We have 703 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:26,440 S1: that linked as well at Chris Fabry lives. Okay, so 704 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,319 S1: it's 40 years ago. We brought this little bundle of 705 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,440 S1: joy home. She was born in March, so it was 706 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,200 S1: probably sometime around April or May that my wife made 707 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,239 S1: the decision, we're going to let her cry like you 708 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,680 S1: were talking about a little earlier. We're going to let 709 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,080 S1: her cry a longer time, not all the way through 710 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,120 S1: the night, but we're going to let her cry. Extended 711 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:53,320 S1: period of time. We lived in a studio apartment, so 712 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,520 S1: it's a, you know, studio on the corner and then 713 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,919 S1: one bedroom next to it, one bedroom on the other 714 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:04,200 S1: side in Chicago. And so part of me was, oh, 715 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,640 S1: they're going to kick us out of here. You know, 716 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,920 S1: it's like a dog that barks all day long. They're 717 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,540 S1: going to kick us out of here If they got 718 00:38:10,540 --> 00:38:13,219 S1: a baby that's crying in the middle of the night. 719 00:38:13,219 --> 00:38:16,340 S1: And we happen to know the the person who lived 720 00:38:16,340 --> 00:38:18,299 S1: right next door, and she said, don't worry about it. 721 00:38:18,380 --> 00:38:21,020 S1: My bedroom's on the other side, so that should have 722 00:38:21,020 --> 00:38:25,140 S1: allayed my fears. But every time our firstborn would cry, 723 00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:30,260 S1: I would think she's dying in there. You. You've got to. 724 00:38:30,340 --> 00:38:32,779 S1: You got to pick her up. What are you doing? 725 00:38:32,980 --> 00:38:36,899 S1: And my wife kept saying, look, here's, here's. And she 726 00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:38,940 S1: told me the same thing that you were saying, Dina, 727 00:38:38,980 --> 00:38:41,419 S1: is that she would calm my fears down. She's not 728 00:38:41,420 --> 00:38:43,620 S1: going to die. This is part of the process. We 729 00:38:43,620 --> 00:38:46,700 S1: can do, you know, ten minutes, 15 minutes. Let's just 730 00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:51,420 S1: see what happens here. And I can remember the night that, um, 731 00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:55,300 S1: my in-laws gave me this, uh, headset. It was a 732 00:38:55,300 --> 00:38:59,220 S1: it was the best Panasonic, uh, earphones that I ever 733 00:38:59,219 --> 00:39:03,460 S1: had that were, uh, stereo. And so I put them on, 734 00:39:03,460 --> 00:39:05,500 S1: and I turned it up loud, and I got in 735 00:39:05,540 --> 00:39:09,069 S1: the chair, and we're, you know, as far away as 736 00:39:09,070 --> 00:39:10,870 S1: I could get. But it's a studio apartment. Where are 737 00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:13,710 S1: you going to go? And I turned the earphones up 738 00:39:13,710 --> 00:39:16,790 S1: and I just steamed. It's like, this baby is going 739 00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:19,910 S1: to die, and. And she doesn't care about the baby, 740 00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:23,990 S1: and I care about the baby. And go ahead, Ryan, play. 741 00:39:24,030 --> 00:39:27,270 S1: Play the. So here's what I heard. I heard the baby. 742 00:39:27,630 --> 00:39:31,030 S1: And I'm listening to the music. We built this city 743 00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:36,630 S1: or something like that. And pretty soon things start to, 744 00:39:36,670 --> 00:39:45,029 S1: you know, the. And she settles down and she, and 745 00:39:45,030 --> 00:39:48,669 S1: she goes to sleep. And it was like, who is 746 00:39:48,670 --> 00:39:53,190 S1: this that I've married? How did she know that that happened? 747 00:39:53,830 --> 00:39:56,669 S1: And and it did. And it was like, why don't 748 00:39:56,670 --> 00:39:57,870 S1: I trust her more. 749 00:39:58,469 --> 00:39:59,070 S4: With these. 750 00:39:59,070 --> 00:40:02,790 S1: Things? But it hit the nerve of me as a 751 00:40:02,830 --> 00:40:06,989 S1: protective dad. It's like, I don't want my children to suffer, 752 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,120 S1: number one. And then I realized, wait a minute, that's 753 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,160 S1: really not it. It's not that I don't want my 754 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,080 S1: children to suffer, it's that I don't want to suffer. 755 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,239 S1: I don't want to go through, you know, this hard 756 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,520 S1: part to get to the you know, the better part. 757 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,120 S1: It's more about me. That was kind of mixed in 758 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,440 S1: there as well. And maybe I'm being too hard on myself. Dina, 759 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:30,080 S1: what do you think? 760 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,120 S2: I think you're being fairly accurate, but it's actually really 761 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,920 S2: good self-awareness, too, because I don't know that parents always 762 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,400 S2: see the selfishness in it. There's there is a piece 763 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,480 S2: where we want to be comfortable and we don't want 764 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,239 S2: to listen to it. And even physiologically, I won't go 765 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,839 S2: into all the chemistry and hormones and all the things 766 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,040 S2: that happen, but we are actually wired to be uniquely 767 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,279 S2: distressed by our own baby crying. So moms often can 768 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,520 S2: hear other babies cry. It does not impact them the 769 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,520 S2: same way as their own baby. So you as a dad, 770 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,520 S2: being so dialed in to your daughter being upset, that's 771 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,169 S2: actually really normal. It's part of how God designed us. 772 00:41:08,170 --> 00:41:10,330 S2: And it's a good thing so that we'll be responsive 773 00:41:10,330 --> 00:41:13,170 S2: to our children and not neglect them and ignore them. 774 00:41:13,690 --> 00:41:17,489 S2: But where your wife also was correct is that sometimes 775 00:41:17,489 --> 00:41:19,450 S2: we need to flip the switch. I talk about being 776 00:41:19,450 --> 00:41:23,569 S2: a needs based parent, and instead of having the goal 777 00:41:23,570 --> 00:41:27,090 S2: of how we approach crying being to stop the crying, 778 00:41:27,290 --> 00:41:29,450 S2: the goal becomes, how do I meet the need the 779 00:41:29,450 --> 00:41:32,170 S2: cry is telling me about? And if you're hearing a 780 00:41:32,170 --> 00:41:35,250 S2: tired cry, the need is sleep. So the best thing 781 00:41:35,250 --> 00:41:38,330 S2: you can do is continue to maybe. Maybe wait, maybe 782 00:41:38,370 --> 00:41:40,410 S2: push pause, see if they can work it out and 783 00:41:40,410 --> 00:41:41,410 S2: get some sleep. 784 00:41:42,570 --> 00:41:46,970 S1: And you're loving the child all through that while you're 785 00:41:46,969 --> 00:41:50,810 S1: also taking care of your own needs. Let's say there's 786 00:41:50,850 --> 00:41:53,330 S1: there are two parents and they both have, you know, 787 00:41:53,370 --> 00:41:56,210 S1: schedules that they need to, you know, be awake in 788 00:41:56,250 --> 00:41:59,090 S1: the day. And they can't both stay up all, all 789 00:41:59,090 --> 00:42:01,529 S1: night long. What do you suggest is one get a 790 00:42:01,530 --> 00:42:02,930 S1: hotel room someplace. 791 00:42:02,930 --> 00:42:03,969 S4: To get some sleep. 792 00:42:04,330 --> 00:42:08,029 S2: Yeah. And your your situation in a studio is not uncommon. 793 00:42:08,030 --> 00:42:11,029 S2: I've had families in a studio apartment, and that's especially tricky. 794 00:42:11,070 --> 00:42:13,750 S2: You really can't escape it. Right. For lack of a 795 00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:17,430 S2: better word. And so often they will be the ones 796 00:42:17,430 --> 00:42:21,270 S2: who are ready to try some gentle routine, because that 797 00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:24,910 S2: schedule often helps the sleeping at night. If we clean 798 00:42:24,910 --> 00:42:28,550 S2: up the daytime routine, we often see the night follow suit. 799 00:42:28,550 --> 00:42:30,870 S2: So some clients are confused. They're like, why aren't you 800 00:42:30,870 --> 00:42:32,310 S2: helping me with the night? Like, let me help you 801 00:42:32,310 --> 00:42:35,310 S2: with the day and watch what happens. So that's that's 802 00:42:35,310 --> 00:42:37,870 S2: really key. But yeah, you might need a break or 803 00:42:37,870 --> 00:42:39,830 S2: you might choose to say, hey, we both work, so 804 00:42:39,830 --> 00:42:41,790 S2: we need to start this on a weekend where we 805 00:42:41,790 --> 00:42:44,029 S2: can have a couple of really tired days that aren't 806 00:42:44,030 --> 00:42:45,910 S2: going to mess us up because we're not getting up 807 00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:47,150 S2: early or what have you. 808 00:42:47,670 --> 00:42:50,750 S1: What about the sleep space? Talk about the crib. 809 00:42:51,150 --> 00:42:53,510 S2: Yes, the crib is an important thing. I'm a big 810 00:42:53,510 --> 00:42:56,950 S2: fan of babies having their own sleep space now. Certainly 811 00:42:56,950 --> 00:43:00,390 S2: when a baby is tiny and if a mom is nursing, 812 00:43:00,390 --> 00:43:02,189 S2: or even if you're bottle feeding in the night, it's 813 00:43:02,190 --> 00:43:04,759 S2: nice to have baby close by, so you might want 814 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,760 S2: to choose a bassinet in your room, in the master bedroom, 815 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,359 S2: whatever that setup is. But really, what we're seeing is 816 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,080 S2: the recommendations really are that babies have their own sleep space. 817 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:16,960 S2: A lot of us have heard of the ABCs of 818 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,040 S2: Safe Sleep, so that baby is a alone B on 819 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,360 S2: their back and C in a crib or bassinet separate 820 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,400 S2: from being in the parents bed. And that's just the science, 821 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,480 S2: even for preventing things like SIDs. Now, as I said before, 822 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,680 S2: just like one parenting or sleep style is not one 823 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,960 S2: size fits all. Neither is this. And you might have 824 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,239 S2: extenuating circumstances. For instance, I had a baby with reflux. 825 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,720 S2: Hearing him choke on his own spit up was terrifying 826 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,719 S2: for me when he was on his back, so I 827 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,839 S2: actually raised the head of his bassinet, stuck a phone 828 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,520 S2: book under it. I'm dating myself here. We had phone 829 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,080 S2: books back in the day. Kids put a phone book 830 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,360 S2: under it and he did sleep on his tummy. But 831 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,839 S2: it was again mitigating the other health challenge we had 832 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,040 S2: going on with the reflux. So you might have to 833 00:44:02,170 --> 00:44:04,529 S2: make some tweaks that make you comfortable for your own 834 00:44:04,530 --> 00:44:07,770 S2: baby's safety. But in general, having them in their own 835 00:44:07,770 --> 00:44:09,850 S2: space is great. And this is another one where the 836 00:44:09,850 --> 00:44:12,169 S2: earlier you start that, the better it goes. If they've 837 00:44:12,170 --> 00:44:13,489 S2: been in your bed for a while and now you 838 00:44:13,530 --> 00:44:16,130 S2: suddenly try to pop them in the nursery, they're probably 839 00:44:16,130 --> 00:44:19,410 S2: going to have an opinion about that and it's going 840 00:44:19,450 --> 00:44:21,650 S2: to sound like that sound effect Ryan's been using. 841 00:44:21,690 --> 00:44:21,970 S4: Yeah. 842 00:44:22,010 --> 00:44:23,690 S1: Okay. Right. Play it again. We got to hear that 843 00:44:23,690 --> 00:44:27,890 S1: one more time before we end here. Is there a correlation? 844 00:44:27,890 --> 00:44:31,290 S1: I just thought of this between the sleep plan that 845 00:44:31,290 --> 00:44:34,089 S1: you're talking about and then later on potty training. Do 846 00:44:34,090 --> 00:44:35,690 S1: you see any similarities there? 847 00:44:36,210 --> 00:44:39,770 S2: I mostly see that it's the similarities with the parents 848 00:44:39,770 --> 00:44:42,930 S2: that if they're the structure people, they'll often also approach 849 00:44:42,930 --> 00:44:45,850 S2: potty training with structure. And the families who are more 850 00:44:45,850 --> 00:44:48,250 S2: freeform about sleep are also the ones who are like, 851 00:44:48,290 --> 00:44:52,450 S2: they'll figure it out eventually, and they're not gonna they'll 852 00:44:52,450 --> 00:44:54,170 S2: be potty trained by the time they go to kindergarten. 853 00:44:54,170 --> 00:44:56,129 S2: It'll be fine. So a lot of it is more 854 00:44:56,170 --> 00:45:00,210 S2: the parenting style than does sleeping well always correlate to 855 00:45:00,250 --> 00:45:02,380 S2: potty training? Sometimes it does, but I don't think you 856 00:45:02,380 --> 00:45:04,860 S2: can draw. You can maybe draw a dotted line. Not 857 00:45:04,860 --> 00:45:06,340 S2: a solid line to that. 858 00:45:06,380 --> 00:45:06,900 S4: Yes. 859 00:45:07,380 --> 00:45:10,300 S1: Uh, and with five children, you said you have five children. 860 00:45:10,300 --> 00:45:13,100 S1: We had nine. It was very much the the first 861 00:45:13,100 --> 00:45:15,140 S1: one was like, what do we do here? And we've 862 00:45:15,140 --> 00:45:17,660 S1: got all these questions. And by the ninth one, it's like, 863 00:45:17,820 --> 00:45:20,020 S1: you know, by the time he gets to college, he'll 864 00:45:20,020 --> 00:45:20,780 S1: figure it out. 865 00:45:20,820 --> 00:45:21,380 S4: Yes. 866 00:45:21,380 --> 00:45:23,580 S2: You calm down a lot, right? The rough edges get 867 00:45:23,580 --> 00:45:25,020 S2: sanded off well. 868 00:45:25,020 --> 00:45:28,140 S1: And that's why I love the doula or the friend 869 00:45:28,180 --> 00:45:31,340 S1: you know, who has some children and has some years 870 00:45:31,340 --> 00:45:35,220 S1: under their belt to come alongside and just give that comfort. 871 00:45:35,219 --> 00:45:37,859 S1: It's going to be okay. You're going to figure this out. 872 00:45:37,860 --> 00:45:40,460 S1: The child's going to figure it out. Uh, this has 873 00:45:40,460 --> 00:45:43,860 S1: been so good. Dina, thank you for coming alongside us today. 874 00:45:43,900 --> 00:45:46,820 S1: Any any final words of encouragement for our friends? 875 00:45:47,060 --> 00:45:49,420 S2: I would just say, hang in there. It really is 876 00:45:49,420 --> 00:45:52,500 S2: worth it. And most babies do figure it out. So 877 00:45:52,620 --> 00:45:54,780 S2: hang in there. Keep your patience on board and you'll 878 00:45:54,780 --> 00:45:55,340 S2: get there. 879 00:45:55,860 --> 00:45:58,500 S1: Yeah. And I hope you get some sleep even tonight. 880 00:45:58,540 --> 00:46:01,600 S1: Especially with, uh, with Josh that we were hearing about Dina. 881 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,600 S1: God bless you, friend. Thanks for coming alongside us today. 882 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:05,760 S2: Thanks for having me. 883 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,520 S1: If you go to Chris. Org, we have her article 884 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,360 S1: from uh at Focus on Family. Com it's infant sleep 885 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,800 S1: laying the foundation. You'll see the the link right there. 886 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,520 S1: Her name is Dina Thayer. We found out more about 887 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,640 S1: her today and more about me. I don't know that 888 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,920 S1: I've ever told that story about our firstborn and what happened. 889 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,840 S1: So that came came out today. Wasn't that a wonderful thing? 890 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,640 S1: And tomorrow we're going to have a Voices of Wisdom conversation. 891 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:37,080 S1: I have three guests for you tomorrow, and I hope 892 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,399 S1: you'll join us here at the Radio Backyard Fence. Thanks 893 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,960 S1: for your support. Chris Fabry Live is a production of 894 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,520 S1: Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.