1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,039 S1: The gospel is the visible demonstration of God's love. It's 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,760 S1: making God's love visible. God's love was made visible to 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,520 S1: us at the cross, and all it says about if 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,760 S1: I be lifted up, I'll draw all men. For God 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,279 S1: so loved the world. So the visible demonstration. Let your 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,520 S1: light so shine before mankind, that they might see your 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,200 S1: good works. And glorify the father which is in heaven. 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,800 S1: So the gospel is the demonstration, the visible demonstration of 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,760 S1: God's love. The purpose of the gospel is to reconcile 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,440 S1: alienated people to a holy God, and to make a 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:47,080 S1: bouquet of people across racial, culture, social and economic barriers. 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,680 S1: That's the purpose of the gospel, is to reconcile Jew 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,600 S1: and Gentile, black and white, together into one body. We 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,320 S1: have taken that now and made a black church and 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,240 S1: white churches out of that. And there is no such 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,040 S1: thing as that. And once you establish that as a reality, 17 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,800 S1: it's difficult then for you to come back to the truth. 18 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,800 S2: That is the unmistakable voice of Doctor John Perkins, who 19 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,400 S2: passed away on March 13th at the age of 95. 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,800 S2: You are going to hear his voice more today, as 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,119 S2: well as the voices of those whose lives have been 22 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,520 S2: forever changed because of the passion he had first for 23 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,920 S2: the gospel, which is what he was talking about right 24 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,760 S2: there and then for racial reconciliation. That clip you just 25 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:35,039 S2: heard was from 35 years ago, and his voice did 26 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:39,600 S2: not change through the years. His passion did not change. 27 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:41,959 S2: And to me, as we go through this week to 28 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,640 S2: remember what Jesus did, how he set his face resolutely 29 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:51,240 S2: toward the cross. Doctor Perkins life echoes with that same 30 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,840 S2: kind of purpose and perseverance and single mindedness, I pray. 31 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,840 S2: I hope we capture a little of his heart today 32 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,920 S2: here on Chris Fabry Live. Welcome to the conversation. We 33 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:04,960 S2: have a number of voices I want you to hear 34 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,040 S2: from today. So first let me thank our team. Ryan 35 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,360 S2: McConaughey doing all things technical. Tricia is our producer. Back 36 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,639 S2: from spring break. Lisa will be helping out and Josh too. 37 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,600 S2: And briefly let me mention that we have today and 38 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,400 S2: tomorrow left in our offer of the book by Colleen Chow. 39 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,440 S2: If you've been meaning to support us and you want 40 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,720 S2: to get those reflections on heaven from Colleen in the 41 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:30,600 S2: book on our way home, call 86695 Fabri or click 42 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,880 S2: through Chris Fabry live. Your support means a lot as 43 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,280 S2: we get to the end of March here, and we 44 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,320 S2: get to have conversations like the one we're going to 45 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,360 S2: have today at the radio backyard Fence. Again, go to 46 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:48,359 S2: Chris Fabry dot. The book that made me an admirer 47 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:53,040 S2: of Doctor Perkins first off, was his 1976 book titled 48 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,359 S2: Let Justice Roll Down. And a few years ago, Christianity 49 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,169 S2: Today named it as number 14 on the list of 50 00:02:59,169 --> 00:03:03,610 S2: the top 50 books that shaped evangelicals over the last 51 00:03:03,610 --> 00:03:06,130 S2: 50 years. I don't think you're going to get an 52 00:03:06,130 --> 00:03:10,050 S2: argument from our first guest, Doctor Wayne Gordon, founding pastor 53 00:03:10,050 --> 00:03:15,049 S2: of Lawndale Community Church, chairman of the Christian Community Development Association, 54 00:03:15,050 --> 00:03:18,810 S2: which Doctor Perkins talked about the CDA all the time. 55 00:03:19,050 --> 00:03:24,169 S2: He co-founded that with Doctor Perkins. Coach, welcome to the program. 56 00:03:24,169 --> 00:03:28,370 S2: And do you don't agree with number 14 on let 57 00:03:28,410 --> 00:03:29,970 S2: justice roll down right. 58 00:03:30,810 --> 00:03:33,930 S3: Oh wow. Yeah. It's great to be here. And what 59 00:03:33,970 --> 00:03:36,050 S3: a book that was. I remember reading it when it 60 00:03:36,050 --> 00:03:42,250 S3: first came out, 1976. And, uh, it just, uh, it just, 61 00:03:42,290 --> 00:03:44,890 S3: it has, I have, I want everybody I know to 62 00:03:44,930 --> 00:03:49,050 S3: read that book and I'm always trying. It's still relevant today. 63 00:03:49,250 --> 00:03:54,050 S3: I just, I'm planning to reread it myself this week. So, um, 64 00:03:54,250 --> 00:03:57,010 S3: it's just, it's a it's positive. One of the. 65 00:03:57,010 --> 00:04:00,410 S2: Questions I'm going to ask each of you to answer is, 66 00:04:00,650 --> 00:04:04,130 S2: who do you imagine him talking with in heaven? And 67 00:04:04,130 --> 00:04:07,210 S2: as soon as I heard the news that Doctor Perkins 68 00:04:07,210 --> 00:04:09,930 S2: had passed away, the first person who popped into my 69 00:04:09,930 --> 00:04:13,050 S2: mind was Chuck Colson. I can just imagine the two 70 00:04:13,050 --> 00:04:17,130 S2: of them sitting down together and and reminiscing about some 71 00:04:17,130 --> 00:04:19,130 S2: of the things and what's going to happen in the future. 72 00:04:19,170 --> 00:04:20,130 S2: What about you? 73 00:04:21,690 --> 00:04:25,050 S3: Well, and I, I know Priscilla and Elizabeth are here, 74 00:04:25,050 --> 00:04:27,770 S3: so I. I hate to steal their thunder, if I might, 75 00:04:28,010 --> 00:04:31,450 S3: but for me, I heard John tell the story of 76 00:04:31,450 --> 00:04:35,450 S3: his mother's dying when he was just a baby. And 77 00:04:35,450 --> 00:04:39,810 S3: he often talked about his mother dying of starvation because 78 00:04:39,810 --> 00:04:44,690 S3: she was feeding him. And I picture him right now 79 00:04:44,690 --> 00:04:47,089 S3: in heaven. And I think the first person he wanted 80 00:04:47,089 --> 00:04:50,290 S3: to embrace was his mother. Thank you. He often talked 81 00:04:50,290 --> 00:04:53,570 S3: about he he he wanted to his mother to know 82 00:04:53,570 --> 00:04:57,010 S3: that he cared for hurting people and for the poor. 83 00:04:57,490 --> 00:05:00,490 S3: So I that's the that's the conversation I see first. 84 00:05:00,490 --> 00:05:03,170 S3: And my second one would be Tom Skinner. The two 85 00:05:03,170 --> 00:05:07,250 S3: of them both were such unbelievable people, and they both 86 00:05:07,250 --> 00:05:10,370 S3: helped me so much. In fact, Barbara Skinner called me 87 00:05:10,370 --> 00:05:13,930 S3: just the other day and said, I thought of Tom 88 00:05:13,930 --> 00:05:16,570 S3: and John talking in heaven. And she said, and I 89 00:05:16,570 --> 00:05:19,530 S3: think they might even have talked about you. So anyway, 90 00:05:20,130 --> 00:05:21,610 S3: those would be my first two. 91 00:05:21,890 --> 00:05:24,409 S2: I love that, I love that. So how did he 92 00:05:24,410 --> 00:05:27,130 S2: change your life or how did he make an impact? 93 00:05:27,130 --> 00:05:29,530 S2: Doctor Perkins, can you sum that up in a minute 94 00:05:29,529 --> 00:05:30,010 S2: or two? 95 00:05:30,850 --> 00:05:33,289 S3: I'll do my best. So I when I was a 96 00:05:33,290 --> 00:05:35,050 S3: senior at Wheaton, I went to Wheaton College when I 97 00:05:35,050 --> 00:05:38,250 S3: was a senior at Wheaton. John spoke my senior year 98 00:05:38,570 --> 00:05:41,210 S3: and he was he just told the story of Mendenhall 99 00:05:41,210 --> 00:05:43,530 S3: and what was going on in Mendenhall at Voice of 100 00:05:43,529 --> 00:05:46,530 S3: Calvary Ministries. And it was so powerful and I had 101 00:05:46,529 --> 00:05:49,050 S3: already thought God was calling me to the inner city 102 00:05:49,050 --> 00:05:52,250 S3: and things, but it was like everything he was talking 103 00:05:52,250 --> 00:05:56,010 S3: about how the gym, a health center, they had a 104 00:05:56,450 --> 00:05:59,050 S3: legal clinic. You know, just all these different things that 105 00:05:59,050 --> 00:06:02,010 S3: were going on. Of loving the people in the community 106 00:06:02,570 --> 00:06:05,490 S3: that I just thought it was just this warm feeling 107 00:06:05,490 --> 00:06:08,289 S3: that went over me. That's what you're calling me to do, God. 108 00:06:08,450 --> 00:06:10,130 S3: But I couldn't even go up and talk to him. 109 00:06:10,130 --> 00:06:12,050 S3: I went out on front campus, sat in front of 110 00:06:12,050 --> 00:06:14,970 S3: a tree and just wept and prayed. That was my 111 00:06:14,970 --> 00:06:17,410 S3: first impression of him. And then I really didn't meet 112 00:06:17,410 --> 00:06:21,850 S3: him in person until 1982. He, I read, led Let 113 00:06:21,890 --> 00:06:25,690 S3: Justice roll down in 76, but then I, my wife 114 00:06:25,690 --> 00:06:28,570 S3: Ann and I, we were Big John Perkins fans would 115 00:06:28,570 --> 00:06:31,570 S3: listen to him when he went. But then when when 82, 116 00:06:31,610 --> 00:06:35,969 S3: we went to to Jackson, Mississippi to Jubilee Jubilee 82, 117 00:06:35,970 --> 00:06:39,970 S3: which was a conference that he had hosted, and Ann 118 00:06:39,970 --> 00:06:43,490 S3: and I got to meet him there, and he was 119 00:06:43,490 --> 00:06:46,370 S3: a hero of mine. He was the he was the 120 00:06:46,410 --> 00:06:51,050 S3: he was the person I wanted to imitate and the, the, 121 00:06:51,050 --> 00:06:53,330 S3: the thing that happened in my life that I'm just 122 00:06:53,370 --> 00:06:56,690 S3: I mean, I'm just so blessed by this is that, 123 00:06:56,730 --> 00:06:59,010 S3: you know, he was a hero and then he became 124 00:06:59,010 --> 00:07:03,050 S3: a mentor. And then and then he became an advisor, 125 00:07:03,050 --> 00:07:06,810 S3: and then he became a colleague. And we started ccda 126 00:07:06,850 --> 00:07:11,810 S3: together almost 40 years ago. And then, uh, he became, uh, 127 00:07:12,210 --> 00:07:18,010 S3: friend until he was my closest friend on this earth. And, uh, 128 00:07:18,010 --> 00:07:21,650 S3: he and I, until until recently when he was sick, 129 00:07:21,850 --> 00:07:24,010 S3: he and I talked on the phone almost every day. 130 00:07:24,010 --> 00:07:26,610 S3: We made an effort. We I got to, you know, 131 00:07:26,650 --> 00:07:29,610 S3: he's probably spent 100 nights in her home. Uh, he 132 00:07:29,610 --> 00:07:32,929 S3: and I traveled together. We stayed in the same hotel room, 133 00:07:32,970 --> 00:07:35,410 S3: you know, separate beds, of course. But we had we 134 00:07:35,410 --> 00:07:39,170 S3: had these unbelievable. I mean, I had so many hours 135 00:07:39,170 --> 00:07:44,890 S3: of conversation with him and, and really, we've molded and 136 00:07:44,890 --> 00:07:48,810 S3: modeled Lawndale Community Church in our ministries here after what 137 00:07:48,810 --> 00:07:51,420 S3: they did in Voice of Calvary. And so he came 138 00:07:51,420 --> 00:07:54,940 S3: and helped us with all of those. So yes, I mean, it's, 139 00:07:54,940 --> 00:07:58,180 S3: it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a hard it's 140 00:07:58,220 --> 00:08:01,700 S3: a hard loss for, for, for all of us. Um, 141 00:08:01,740 --> 00:08:05,660 S3: but he's my best friend and, um, and I, you know, 142 00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:09,140 S3: it was, it's, it's, uh, I just love him to 143 00:08:09,180 --> 00:08:11,780 S3: death and I, and I love his family and, and, uh, 144 00:08:11,780 --> 00:08:15,660 S3: he's got a great family and we'll look forward and, and, 145 00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:19,900 S3: you know, let me just say this. Elizabeth and Priscilla 146 00:08:19,900 --> 00:08:23,140 S3: have taken the helm of the ministry, and they've been 147 00:08:23,140 --> 00:08:27,060 S3: doing it now in John's illness, and particularly Covid took 148 00:08:27,100 --> 00:08:30,620 S3: a hit on John's life. But they've been running the 149 00:08:30,620 --> 00:08:33,820 S3: ministry and they are doing so well. And Anne and 150 00:08:33,820 --> 00:08:36,380 S3: I are so proud of them. And we just, you know, 151 00:08:36,420 --> 00:08:38,980 S3: I'm on the board of voice of, uh, John and 152 00:08:39,179 --> 00:08:41,860 S3: Emma Perkins Foundation and get to get to know what's 153 00:08:41,860 --> 00:08:45,460 S3: behind the curtain. And they are doing a great job 154 00:08:45,460 --> 00:08:47,860 S3: of leading the ministry and continuing it on. 155 00:08:48,140 --> 00:08:50,660 S2: Well, I'm going to hit the Wayback Machine because I 156 00:08:50,660 --> 00:08:54,500 S2: know you spoke coach at the memorial service. The very 157 00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:57,540 S2: first person to stand up, I said, that's Dolphus. That's 158 00:08:57,540 --> 00:09:00,460 S2: Doctor Dolphus weary. He wrote a memoir a few years 159 00:09:00,460 --> 00:09:04,260 S2: ago titled I Ain't Coming Back. And I asked him 160 00:09:04,260 --> 00:09:07,939 S2: to describe what Doctor Perkins means to him. 161 00:09:08,420 --> 00:09:12,540 S4: Well, when he came to Mississippi, came back to Mississippi 162 00:09:12,980 --> 00:09:17,939 S4: and started in Mendenhall, probably in 61, 62. I had 163 00:09:17,940 --> 00:09:23,740 S4: the opportunity to go to a a tent meeting that 164 00:09:23,740 --> 00:09:29,140 S4: they sponsored in Mississippi, right outside of Mendenhall. And at 165 00:09:29,220 --> 00:09:34,380 S4: that night I heard the message from Psalms one 1612, 166 00:09:34,380 --> 00:09:38,140 S4: what shall I run unto the Lord for benefits toward me? 167 00:09:38,860 --> 00:09:41,460 S4: I went forth and gave my life to the Lord. 168 00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:44,860 S4: John Perkins, you know, came up to me and said, office, 169 00:09:45,140 --> 00:09:47,660 S4: you know you're giving your life to the Lord, but 170 00:09:47,700 --> 00:09:50,740 S4: you need to learn more about what it means to 171 00:09:50,780 --> 00:09:53,860 S4: follow the Lord. So we have a Bible class that 172 00:09:53,860 --> 00:09:58,020 S4: meets on Thursday nights and a group meets on Saturday evening. 173 00:09:58,020 --> 00:10:01,300 S4: So for the first time, I was invited to be 174 00:10:01,340 --> 00:10:04,459 S4: go to a Bible class. Because I grew up in 175 00:10:04,460 --> 00:10:07,540 S4: a church, that Sunday school was all you got. And 176 00:10:07,540 --> 00:10:12,660 S4: so John Perkins encouraged us, encouraged me to to go 177 00:10:12,660 --> 00:10:15,460 S4: to college and we could not get into a school 178 00:10:15,460 --> 00:10:18,620 S4: in Mississippi, so went to a junior college. And then 179 00:10:18,860 --> 00:10:22,420 S4: my junior year ended up at a Baptist college in 180 00:10:22,420 --> 00:10:27,140 S4: California and seminary, graduated from the college, and then went 181 00:10:27,140 --> 00:10:30,699 S4: on to the seminary for two years. And when I graduated, 182 00:10:30,700 --> 00:10:35,500 S4: then came back in 1971 to Mendenhall, Mississippi, because John 183 00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:38,780 S4: Perkins had said, we want you to come back and 184 00:10:38,780 --> 00:10:41,260 S4: be a part of this ministry. Well, when when we 185 00:10:41,300 --> 00:10:45,700 S4: came back in 1971, it was at the height of 186 00:10:45,740 --> 00:10:49,300 S4: the racial situation. And there were people coming by his 187 00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:54,459 S4: house threatening to, to, to bomb his house. So when 188 00:10:54,460 --> 00:10:59,780 S4: I came back, he and his family moved to Jackson, Mississippi, 189 00:11:00,220 --> 00:11:04,300 S4: and God worked it out that the lady had a 190 00:11:04,300 --> 00:11:08,660 S4: clinic that her husband, um, had in the white community. 191 00:11:09,860 --> 00:11:12,260 S4: She was the wife of the doctor. The doctor had 192 00:11:12,260 --> 00:11:16,940 S4: passed away, and she went against the grain to sell 193 00:11:16,940 --> 00:11:22,059 S4: us that clinic. And the first thing we did was 194 00:11:22,059 --> 00:11:25,980 S4: to make sure we moved those separate waiting rooms, because 195 00:11:25,980 --> 00:11:28,260 S4: they had a waiting room in the back for the 196 00:11:28,260 --> 00:11:31,260 S4: black patients and the waiting room in the front for 197 00:11:31,260 --> 00:11:35,340 S4: white patients. And black patients could come and sit almost 198 00:11:35,340 --> 00:11:38,620 S4: all day and not see the doctor until the end 199 00:11:38,620 --> 00:11:41,980 S4: of the day. So all those things was in me. 200 00:11:42,179 --> 00:11:45,750 S4: All those things was put in me through to John Perkins. 201 00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:47,830 S4: We got to make a difference. We have to make 202 00:11:47,830 --> 00:11:53,790 S4: a difference. And I stayed in Mendenhall for 27 years, 203 00:11:54,230 --> 00:11:57,950 S4: going around the country speaking, raising money so that we 204 00:11:57,950 --> 00:12:00,429 S4: can do what we were doing in the community. And 205 00:12:00,429 --> 00:12:04,069 S4: that that gave me a broader perspective of what it 206 00:12:04,070 --> 00:12:07,390 S4: means to deal with the poor community and to deal 207 00:12:07,390 --> 00:12:10,550 S4: with racism and poverty and injustice. 208 00:12:11,030 --> 00:12:13,630 S2: You're hearing about the impact of a giant of the faith, 209 00:12:13,630 --> 00:12:17,110 S2: Doctor John Perkins, who lived out the gospel in front 210 00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:20,390 S2: of us. That's Dolphus weary. Coach Gordon is with us. 211 00:12:20,390 --> 00:12:24,350 S2: And when we return, Priscilla and Elizabeth Perkins will join us. 212 00:12:24,350 --> 00:12:27,590 S2: This is Chris Fabry, live on Moody Radio online at 213 00:12:27,590 --> 00:12:29,150 S2: Chris favorite Dot. 214 00:12:40,790 --> 00:12:45,030 S1: You see, God is reconciling his people unto himself. Ah, 215 00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:48,710 S1: you know, the question was asked, What is God doing? 216 00:12:48,750 --> 00:12:51,590 S1: And he said, God is calling out from among the 217 00:12:51,590 --> 00:12:56,710 S1: Gentiles a people for his name across racial, cultural and 218 00:12:56,710 --> 00:13:00,030 S1: social barriers. And God is making a bouquet and we 219 00:13:00,030 --> 00:13:02,390 S1: are all going to be to heaven, worship him together. 220 00:13:02,390 --> 00:13:04,950 S1: That's what God wants too, he said, to make sure 221 00:13:04,950 --> 00:13:07,790 S1: that we make what we are doing down here on earth, 222 00:13:07,790 --> 00:13:09,390 S1: like what is going on in heaven. 223 00:13:10,590 --> 00:13:12,950 S2: Again, the voice of Doctor John Perkins. You're going to 224 00:13:12,950 --> 00:13:15,750 S2: hear more from him throughout this hour, but I'm letting 225 00:13:15,750 --> 00:13:20,470 S2: you hear people whose lives have been changed because of 226 00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:23,750 S2: his life. And we've heard from Coach Gordon, we've heard 227 00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:29,110 S2: from Dolphus Weary. His daughter Elizabeth wrote this to the world. 228 00:13:29,110 --> 00:13:32,190 S2: He was Doctor John Perkins, John M Perkins, a voice 229 00:13:32,190 --> 00:13:36,189 S2: for justice, reconciliation and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He 230 00:13:36,190 --> 00:13:41,070 S2: received 19 honorary doctorate degrees, but most importantly, he was 231 00:13:41,070 --> 00:13:44,350 S2: the devoted husband of his bride, Vera Mae Perkins, for 232 00:13:44,350 --> 00:13:50,350 S2: 74 years, and together they were blessed with eight children. Elizabeth, 233 00:13:50,590 --> 00:13:53,310 S2: thank you for joining us today. And let me start 234 00:13:53,309 --> 00:13:56,829 S2: with that question. Who in heaven do you imagine your 235 00:13:56,830 --> 00:14:00,270 S2: dad sitting down next to and having a conversation? 236 00:14:01,190 --> 00:14:04,710 S5: Well, hi, Chris. Uh, thank you for having Priscilla and 237 00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:10,390 S5: I on today. Uh, and, um, Wayne sort of, uh, 238 00:14:10,750 --> 00:14:14,430 S5: said person who I was thinking about, but I'm also thinking, 239 00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:17,870 S5: I also think about my, um, my brother's, you know, 240 00:14:17,910 --> 00:14:21,510 S5: he had two sons who passed before him and a 241 00:14:21,510 --> 00:14:26,310 S5: granddaughter and grandson. And so I imagined them having a, a, 242 00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:30,310 S5: a mini family reunion there together in heaven. 243 00:14:30,310 --> 00:14:33,390 S2: Yeah. Oh, wouldn't you love to be there? And you 244 00:14:33,390 --> 00:14:37,470 S2: will be there. Uh, Elizabeth is co-president and program admissions 245 00:14:37,470 --> 00:14:41,230 S2: coordinator at the John and Vera Mae Perkins Foundation, and 246 00:14:41,230 --> 00:14:44,430 S2: you can find out more about that. We have a link@kris.org. 247 00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:47,310 S2: There's also a memorial fund if you would like to 248 00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:49,350 S2: contribute to that. We have a link right there on 249 00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:53,310 S2: the front page. If you go to kris.org here is 250 00:14:53,310 --> 00:14:57,190 S2: co-president and leader of the development at the leader of 251 00:14:57,190 --> 00:15:02,910 S2: development at the John and Vera Perkins Foundation, Priscilla Perkins. Priscilla, 252 00:15:02,910 --> 00:15:04,790 S2: what is your answer to that question? 253 00:15:05,310 --> 00:15:12,230 S5: Oh my, that is such a difficult question. Um, and coach, 254 00:15:12,950 --> 00:15:17,390 S5: he definitely stole it. Uh, and Elizabeth stole the second 255 00:15:17,390 --> 00:15:22,390 S5: and the third. Uh, but, um, I have to say, because, 256 00:15:22,430 --> 00:15:27,270 S5: you know, someone else, uh, told me something before my 257 00:15:27,270 --> 00:15:31,550 S5: father passed away, she, a friend of ours said, you know, 258 00:15:31,550 --> 00:15:35,710 S5: my father and your father, they had a bromance going on. 259 00:15:36,070 --> 00:15:38,630 S5: And that's what we call we used to call coach 260 00:15:38,630 --> 00:15:41,470 S5: and my dad's relationship. They just had a bromance because 261 00:15:41,470 --> 00:15:44,790 S5: they were on the phone every single day. But my 262 00:15:44,790 --> 00:15:49,590 S5: father also had this bromance with a guy named Roland Hines, 263 00:15:49,790 --> 00:15:54,870 S5: who was the total opposite of my father. But they 264 00:15:54,870 --> 00:16:00,670 S5: came from totally different worlds. But they became so close friends. 265 00:16:00,710 --> 00:16:04,470 S5: My father, he he used to reach across the table 266 00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:08,710 S5: and become friends with people who were so different from him. 267 00:16:09,310 --> 00:16:17,470 S5: And that was the, um, the definition of love loving 268 00:16:17,470 --> 00:16:22,230 S5: people across breaking down barriers. It was reconciliation. He showed 269 00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:26,830 S5: us how to love across, um, any type of barrier. 270 00:16:27,030 --> 00:16:30,550 S5: And it was amazing to see that. So Roland Hines 271 00:16:30,590 --> 00:16:33,350 S5: is the person I would, I would say that that 272 00:16:33,390 --> 00:16:35,470 S5: ran to him at the gate. 273 00:16:36,750 --> 00:16:39,440 S2: I totally agree with you, and I experienced a little 274 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,520 S2: bit of that. Every time I would meet him, he 275 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,760 S2: would be coming through Chicago and he'd have the board 276 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,560 S2: meeting or whatever, and we'd invite him on the program. 277 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,880 S2: And it was it was like, you're his best friend. He, 278 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,000 S2: you know, he remembered my name, remembered where I'm from, 279 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,000 S2: asked me questions. It wasn't just another interview. It was 280 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,680 S2: like he. So he, he broke down those barriers and 281 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,040 S2: he built bridges to an awful lot of people. But 282 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,320 S2: I've got to ask you, Elizabeth, let me turn to 283 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,280 S2: you again. He was your dad, though. He was. I 284 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,720 S2: see we don't know him like you knew him as 285 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,400 S2: your father. So can you encapsulate him as a dad? 286 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,000 S6: Well, one of the things that me and daddy, I 287 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,680 S6: think when I was like 18 years old, because he 288 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,280 S6: traveled so much, um, I went to him and I said, well, daddy, um, 289 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,199 S6: let's make a memory. And so moving forward, one of 290 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:35,840 S6: the things that I often say to him when I 291 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,320 S6: want to spend time with him was, daddy, let's make 292 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,359 S6: a memory. And so, you know, we would go, uh, 293 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,560 S6: riding in the car or just go any little place together, 294 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,280 S6: but it was strictly just so we could be together. 295 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,399 S6: And as a father, you know, he loved he loved 296 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,320 S6: his children, and he loved his wife. 297 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:04,600 S2: Yeah. And Priscilla, the same questions, the same question about 298 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,240 S2: your dad. Tell me about daddy. 299 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,520 S5: Well, to me, he wasn't just a leader. He was 300 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:17,520 S5: my father. And what I saw up close, I traveled 301 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,120 S5: with him. I called my the last, you know, ten 302 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:25,200 S5: years of his life traveling the million mile journey. Um, 303 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,880 S5: and it wasn't easy, but the message that he preached 304 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:36,679 S5: is the life he lived. He he was Is consistent. Um, 305 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:44,040 S5: if he saw someone in need, he would address it. 306 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,760 S5: Even at the cost of himself and me. You know, 307 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,479 S5: I was I was like, come on, daddy, we gotta go. 308 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:59,440 S5: But he, he would stop to help someone and, you know, um, 309 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,960 S5: he he he was real. He was that real, um, person, 310 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:10,040 S5: that unique person that you don't that's not born every day. Yeah. 311 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:15,000 S2: He saw people. He, he saw them and valued the 312 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,440 S2: image of God in them, whether they agree with him 313 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,120 S2: or not. I experienced that too. Wayne, do you agree 314 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:20,760 S2: with that? 315 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,600 S3: Oh, absolutely. I mean, when he would go into a room, 316 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,920 S3: I learned so much about, you know, being with people 317 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,360 S3: when just observing him. So when he would walk into 318 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,359 S3: a room, immediately what he would do. He'd go in 319 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,000 S3: and he would just start shaking hands with everybody. And 320 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,600 S3: he wouldn't ask that. He would say, my name is 321 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,200 S3: John Perkins. What's your name? You know, John Perkins. He 322 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,399 S3: always told you people his name, even though most people 323 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,520 S3: knew it. But then he would engage with you and, 324 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:52,959 S3: you know, and literally he, he, he befriended everybody. Everybody, uh, 325 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,040 S3: had John Perkins as their best friend. And, you know, 326 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,240 S3: he was, he was always interested in, in what was 327 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,920 S3: going on. And he had a memory to remember when 328 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,080 S3: we would travel and go to ministries, he would say, 329 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,920 S3: I preached in that church and I talked over there and, and, 330 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,200 S3: you know, at first I thought, oh yeah, maybe. But then, 331 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,760 S3: you know what? It was always true. And he would 332 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:17,120 S3: know your story. He would remember your story. He might 333 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,159 S3: forget your name. He might call you guy. You know, 334 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,000 S3: he called everybody all the all the men he called 335 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,520 S3: hey Guy and hey girl. And but it was an 336 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,439 S3: affectionate way of talking to people. Um, but yes, he 337 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,200 S3: he he, he had this remarkable way of connecting with 338 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,160 S3: people in a very positive way. And he empowered all 339 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:40,560 S3: of us because he. He believed in us and he 340 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,400 S3: he saw the good in all the things that we 341 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,560 S3: were doing and people all over. I watched him do 342 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,159 S3: it hundreds of times. 343 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,480 S2: There may be somebody listening, though, who. We say John 344 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,239 S2: Perkins and you might have heard of him. You might 345 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,200 S2: have heard other people, Shane Claiborne or Switchfoot, sing about 346 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,119 S2: him or other people talk about him, but you don't 347 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,360 S2: know the depth of where he went. And Dolphus weary 348 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,400 S2: alluded to this just a minute ago in. It was 349 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,000 S2: 20 years ago, Wayne Shepherd of Moody Radio had Doctor 350 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,080 S2: Perkins on. And this is what they talked about. 351 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,920 S7: What was the lowest point of your life? What would 352 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,239 S7: you say? You know, that that was the point at 353 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,240 S7: which I thought there was no hope whatsoever. 354 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,520 S8: Well, I think it was the Brandon Jail. I think 355 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,159 S8: it was when I was beaten in the Brandon Jail. 356 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,729 S8: And during that time of recover from that beating in 357 00:21:32,730 --> 00:21:33,530 S8: the Brennan jail. 358 00:21:33,970 --> 00:21:35,050 S7: When did that happen? 359 00:21:35,090 --> 00:21:38,770 S8: That happened in 1970. But I went to the jail 360 00:21:39,170 --> 00:21:43,050 S8: to make bond for some young people who had been 361 00:21:43,050 --> 00:21:47,570 S8: arrested because they had participated in the boycott that was 362 00:21:47,570 --> 00:21:51,810 S8: on in Mendenhall. And then on their way back to 363 00:21:51,850 --> 00:21:55,090 S8: their college, they were arrested, and then they called me. 364 00:21:55,130 --> 00:21:57,490 S8: Some of them went to the phone that wasn't arrested 365 00:21:57,490 --> 00:22:00,490 S8: and called me and some others, and we went to 366 00:22:00,530 --> 00:22:03,250 S8: the jail so that we could make bond for them 367 00:22:03,250 --> 00:22:06,250 S8: and find out what went wrong. And then that's when 368 00:22:06,250 --> 00:22:10,169 S8: they arrested, uh, the three of us who went there. 369 00:22:10,170 --> 00:22:12,890 S8: And that's when they almost beat us to death. Uh, 370 00:22:13,050 --> 00:22:18,770 S8: that was a horrible night. Now it was again, that's sacrifice. 371 00:22:18,890 --> 00:22:21,770 S8: It was the most horrible experience in my life. I 372 00:22:21,970 --> 00:22:25,010 S8: thought that my ministry had come to an end. I 373 00:22:25,010 --> 00:22:26,969 S8: thought my life was going to come to an end. 374 00:22:27,210 --> 00:22:31,970 S8: I saw the the The evil of racism. I saw 375 00:22:32,010 --> 00:22:37,410 S8: the twisted face of the those sheriffs and highway patrol 376 00:22:37,410 --> 00:22:40,609 S8: that was beating us, and how they were having to 377 00:22:40,650 --> 00:22:44,490 S8: bruise us in order to feel their own sense of worth. 378 00:22:44,609 --> 00:22:49,570 S8: I saw that what racism and damage had happened to 379 00:22:49,609 --> 00:22:53,250 S8: white folks, uh, that night. And so that was the 380 00:22:53,250 --> 00:22:57,690 S8: lowest point. But now as I look back in my life, uh, Shepherd, 381 00:22:57,930 --> 00:23:01,010 S8: I almost see that now as the highest point in 382 00:23:01,010 --> 00:23:05,010 S8: my life because I really believe that I've been able 383 00:23:05,010 --> 00:23:10,210 S8: to persevere and to talk about racism in a way 384 00:23:10,410 --> 00:23:16,170 S8: that I have not alienated myself from the white community 385 00:23:16,650 --> 00:23:21,370 S8: because I haven't been hostile. I have saw white people 386 00:23:21,369 --> 00:23:25,930 S8: as people needy, just like us black people, and that 387 00:23:25,930 --> 00:23:29,410 S8: I know that I've been helped because people have loved me, 388 00:23:29,730 --> 00:23:32,450 S8: both black and white has come beside of me and 389 00:23:32,450 --> 00:23:35,250 S8: loved me. And the only way that I can really 390 00:23:35,290 --> 00:23:37,969 S8: see change in other people's lives as it relates to 391 00:23:37,970 --> 00:23:40,930 S8: the gospel is by loving those who we are directing 392 00:23:40,930 --> 00:23:44,450 S8: our gospel towards. You know what I'm saying? And so 393 00:23:44,770 --> 00:23:49,690 S8: without that experience, that night in jail, I don't think 394 00:23:49,690 --> 00:23:52,090 S8: I would have been able to persevere. I think there 395 00:23:52,090 --> 00:23:54,930 S8: would have been more hostility in me. And I think 396 00:23:54,930 --> 00:23:59,649 S8: that my sharing these kind of, uh, events and seeing it, 397 00:23:59,930 --> 00:24:03,130 S8: trying to share it out of my concern for the 398 00:24:03,130 --> 00:24:08,370 S8: damage and the blindness that have come upon white people. Uh, 399 00:24:08,410 --> 00:24:10,850 S8: I think I try to share it with a passion 400 00:24:11,530 --> 00:24:13,410 S8: in a, in a way that I wouldn't have been 401 00:24:13,410 --> 00:24:16,450 S8: able to do that without me experiencing that event. 402 00:24:16,970 --> 00:24:19,490 S2: So the wound becomes a place of healing. There it 403 00:24:19,490 --> 00:24:24,010 S2: is again. What you meant for evil. God meant for good, coach. 404 00:24:24,010 --> 00:24:25,850 S2: That that preaches, doesn't it? 405 00:24:25,850 --> 00:24:29,010 S3: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And, and he, he really was 406 00:24:29,010 --> 00:24:34,010 S3: able to learn that on that Brandon jail floor after 407 00:24:34,010 --> 00:24:36,850 S3: he had been. And, and the damage to him affected 408 00:24:36,850 --> 00:24:38,650 S3: him the rest of his life. I mean, he talked 409 00:24:38,650 --> 00:24:42,010 S3: about that happening in 1970, but he was his stomach. 410 00:24:42,050 --> 00:24:45,010 S3: He it was beaten and kicked and he had. It 411 00:24:45,010 --> 00:24:46,890 S3: would just get tied up. He had to have several 412 00:24:46,890 --> 00:24:49,889 S3: surgeries over the course of his life because of that. 413 00:24:49,890 --> 00:24:54,650 S3: But he he recognized while he was there the damage 414 00:24:54,650 --> 00:24:58,970 S3: that racism has done to white people. You know, when 415 00:24:58,970 --> 00:25:03,450 S3: I hate somebody else, it I'm far more damaged myself 416 00:25:03,450 --> 00:25:07,330 S3: than the person I hate. And so that gave him 417 00:25:07,330 --> 00:25:11,410 S3: then this understanding of reconciliation. He was a reconciled. He's 418 00:25:11,410 --> 00:25:14,689 S3: known all over the world as a reconciler. He wanted 419 00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:19,690 S3: to bring people together. And he was he was reconciling. 420 00:25:19,690 --> 00:25:24,050 S3: And that's, you know, he had the three R's reconciliation and, and, uh, 421 00:25:24,090 --> 00:25:28,490 S3: you know, Redistribution and relocation. Those were the those were 422 00:25:28,490 --> 00:25:32,050 S3: the core of CDA. And so in doing that, he 423 00:25:32,090 --> 00:25:36,570 S3: he reconciled. He brought people together across all barriers of life. 424 00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:38,970 S3: And he. You had him say that earlier in your 425 00:25:39,010 --> 00:25:40,330 S3: in your remarks, that. 426 00:25:40,850 --> 00:25:44,450 S2: That's Coach Gordon. We've got Elizabeth Perkins, Priscilla Perkins when 427 00:25:44,450 --> 00:25:47,570 S2: we come back. I've been looking for this for 18 years. 428 00:25:47,570 --> 00:25:51,370 S2: You'll hear Doctor Perkins talk about his memory of the 429 00:25:51,369 --> 00:25:55,290 S2: I Have a Dream speech that's straight ahead on Moody Radio. 430 00:26:03,210 --> 00:26:07,010 S8: I've been in Mississippi. I went back there in 1960, 431 00:26:07,250 --> 00:26:10,650 S8: and now we are at 19 and 63, you know, 432 00:26:10,690 --> 00:26:15,730 S8: with the March on Washington and and of course, his speech. 433 00:26:16,130 --> 00:26:18,970 S8: And I was on my way carrying Herbert Jones back 434 00:26:18,970 --> 00:26:21,770 S8: to his home in my pickup. We were working on 435 00:26:21,770 --> 00:26:25,980 S8: our ministry building down in Mendenhall, And we heard only 436 00:26:25,980 --> 00:26:28,700 S8: this speech came on the radio. We knew it was coming. 437 00:26:28,740 --> 00:26:31,419 S8: And so we had already on. And so this speech 438 00:26:31,420 --> 00:26:35,460 S8: come and it's about just before dark. And we heard 439 00:26:35,460 --> 00:26:38,219 S8: this speech and he started talking about I have a dream, 440 00:26:38,380 --> 00:26:41,660 S8: you know, as he began to articulate the idea. And 441 00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:45,100 S8: it was so powerful that we pulled our car, our 442 00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:49,300 S8: pick up off the road onto that, onto the side 443 00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:52,900 S8: of the road and listen to that speech. And as 444 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:56,820 S8: he was speaking, Herbert and I both was there crying 445 00:26:57,060 --> 00:27:02,420 S8: because what that speech did was took all of the longings, 446 00:27:02,820 --> 00:27:08,939 S8: all of the hope, all of the desires of black 447 00:27:08,940 --> 00:27:13,340 S8: people for freedom and put it into that speech. And 448 00:27:13,340 --> 00:27:16,860 S8: so what he was doing, he was he was echoing 449 00:27:17,340 --> 00:27:21,340 S8: the cry of all of us who had suffered for 450 00:27:21,340 --> 00:27:24,860 S8: so long. And that's what made that speech such a 451 00:27:24,859 --> 00:27:29,940 S8: powerful speech. His dream was our dream. He articulated a 452 00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:34,860 S8: dream for black people and of course, the dream for America. 453 00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:39,380 S2: As he described that I can just see him in 454 00:27:39,420 --> 00:27:42,220 S2: that truck, in the cab of that truck, listen to 455 00:27:42,260 --> 00:27:47,260 S2: that radio all those miles away at the Lincoln Memorial 456 00:27:47,260 --> 00:27:50,780 S2: and Doctor King and the words getting all the way 457 00:27:50,780 --> 00:27:54,180 S2: from there down into the heart of John Perkins and 458 00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:56,500 S2: his friend he was driving with that day and the 459 00:27:56,500 --> 00:28:00,060 S2: tears that came. And I want to capture a little 460 00:28:00,060 --> 00:28:03,540 S2: bit of that for you today as we honor Doctor Perkins. 461 00:28:03,660 --> 00:28:07,060 S2: If you go to Chris Live.com, you will see a 462 00:28:07,060 --> 00:28:12,980 S2: link to the John and Vera Mae Perkins Foundation and 463 00:28:12,980 --> 00:28:16,820 S2: the John M Perkins Memorial. There is a link right 464 00:28:16,820 --> 00:28:19,820 S2: there where you can donate if you'd like to, and 465 00:28:19,820 --> 00:28:24,939 S2: we have the link at Chris Fabbri, Livorno. Chris Fabbri, Livorno. 466 00:28:25,619 --> 00:28:29,620 S2: So I've got Coach Gordon with us. I've got Elizabeth Perkins, 467 00:28:29,619 --> 00:28:34,820 S2: I've got Priscilla Perkins daughters and they've been leading the 468 00:28:34,859 --> 00:28:39,060 S2: JV MPF for the last few years. Priscilla, I want 469 00:28:39,060 --> 00:28:41,660 S2: you to respond to what your dad said right there. 470 00:28:41,660 --> 00:28:49,420 S2: You've probably heard that before, right? And I don't hear. 471 00:28:49,460 --> 00:28:53,260 S2: I don't hear Priscilla. Okay. Let's try. Elizabeth. Elizabeth. You 472 00:28:53,260 --> 00:28:59,500 S2: answered that same question. Okay. Oh, both of them. Okay. 473 00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:02,660 S2: All right. Well, coach, why don't you answer? You answer 474 00:29:02,660 --> 00:29:06,180 S2: that question. That was that was a huge, pivotal turning 475 00:29:06,180 --> 00:29:07,420 S2: point for him, wasn't it? 476 00:29:07,660 --> 00:29:10,780 S3: Oh yeah. And you know, I think one one reason 477 00:29:10,780 --> 00:29:13,580 S3: that I have a dream speech resonated with John so 478 00:29:13,580 --> 00:29:17,060 S3: well is that he was a dreamer and he was always, 479 00:29:17,260 --> 00:29:19,700 S3: you have to be a dreamer. You you got to Gunnar. 480 00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:22,620 S3: We understand. Anne and I were just when we were 481 00:29:22,620 --> 00:29:25,500 S3: just down in Mississippi for the funeral. We drove through 482 00:29:25,540 --> 00:29:30,100 S3: Mendenhall again. And you know this this is the neighborhood 483 00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:34,660 S3: that the white community has totally alienated. They're they're just 484 00:29:34,700 --> 00:29:38,060 S3: it's racism at its worst in the 60s when when 485 00:29:38,060 --> 00:29:41,380 S3: John and Vera may go there. And so you have 486 00:29:41,380 --> 00:29:44,100 S3: to have some form of hope and dream that comes 487 00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:47,780 S3: only through, I think, Jesus Christ. And so he had 488 00:29:47,780 --> 00:29:49,900 S3: this dream and he built a gym. They built a 489 00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:52,660 S3: gym for the kids there. They, you know, they, they, 490 00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:56,220 S3: they started doing housing and they, as dolphins said, they 491 00:29:56,220 --> 00:30:00,940 S3: opened a medical clinic. They, they did so many things to, 492 00:30:00,980 --> 00:30:03,340 S3: to help. And he was always dreaming. In fact, one 493 00:30:03,340 --> 00:30:05,420 S3: of his books is come Dream with me towards the 494 00:30:05,420 --> 00:30:08,260 S3: end of his life. And so John was a dreamer. 495 00:30:08,260 --> 00:30:11,220 S3: And to hear Doctor King said, I have a dream. 496 00:30:11,220 --> 00:30:14,340 S3: And his dream was reconciliation, that black children and white 497 00:30:14,340 --> 00:30:17,140 S3: children would come together, and that people would not judge 498 00:30:17,140 --> 00:30:19,420 S3: us by the color of our skin, but by the 499 00:30:19,420 --> 00:30:23,180 S3: content of our caricature. That resonated with John because that's 500 00:30:23,180 --> 00:30:27,460 S3: who he was. He was that person. And so he 501 00:30:27,460 --> 00:30:29,780 S3: was always dreaming with me. He always told me he 502 00:30:29,820 --> 00:30:33,340 S3: never stopped dreaming. I'm telling you. And we were just 503 00:30:33,340 --> 00:30:35,340 S3: with him. The last conversation I had with him just 504 00:30:35,340 --> 00:30:38,380 S3: a couple months ago, he was dreaming. Then he still 505 00:30:38,380 --> 00:30:39,220 S3: was dreaming. 506 00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:45,060 S2: All right, so, Priscilla, I've got Priscilla and Elizabeth back. 507 00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:48,580 S2: Answer that question about your dad and the I Have 508 00:30:48,580 --> 00:30:51,060 S2: a Dream speech. Did he talk about that a lot? 509 00:30:52,380 --> 00:30:56,980 S5: Um, he he well, like coach said, he was a dreamer. 510 00:30:56,980 --> 00:31:00,980 S5: He was a visionary. And he was a man like. 511 00:31:01,220 --> 00:31:07,580 S5: Like Martin Luther King, a man before his time. So he, um, 512 00:31:07,780 --> 00:31:12,580 S5: he dreamed we called it dream big. And, um, from 513 00:31:12,580 --> 00:31:16,820 S5: where he came from, like a plantation raised by two 514 00:31:16,820 --> 00:31:20,790 S5: women who were former slaves. For him to be able 515 00:31:20,790 --> 00:31:27,670 S5: to dream so big that he cast it forward for generations. Um, 516 00:31:27,870 --> 00:31:32,710 S5: I believe that he, um, he believed that dreams mattered, 517 00:31:32,710 --> 00:31:39,230 S5: like Martin Luther King, that we could be one because 518 00:31:39,230 --> 00:31:44,750 S5: it mattered that, uh, that reconciliation was oneness with God 519 00:31:44,750 --> 00:31:48,790 S5: and one was oneness with each other. And, and so 520 00:31:48,950 --> 00:31:52,510 S5: he believed it. And, and I, I drank the Kool-Aid 521 00:31:52,910 --> 00:31:58,230 S5: and I, and I, and I, a thousand, a million people, we, 522 00:31:58,230 --> 00:32:01,990 S5: we are building reconcilers. And it's a, it's a lifestyle. 523 00:32:01,990 --> 00:32:04,550 S5: It's a way of life. Live theology. 524 00:32:04,910 --> 00:32:05,790 S9: Well, here's the other thing. 525 00:32:05,790 --> 00:32:08,630 S2: About that is that the dream. He didn't let the 526 00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:12,510 S2: nightmare stop him. The nightmare of the Brandon jail, the 527 00:32:12,510 --> 00:32:16,190 S2: nightmare of his brother who was killed. And that's one 528 00:32:16,310 --> 00:32:19,430 S2: of the reasons why he left earlier in his life. 529 00:32:19,910 --> 00:32:23,350 S5: He refused to let him have the last word. 530 00:32:23,790 --> 00:32:26,630 S2: Bingo. So, Elizabeth, what did. 531 00:32:26,670 --> 00:32:27,150 S9: What did you. 532 00:32:27,190 --> 00:32:31,110 S2: Hear from your dad about the Brandon County jail? It 533 00:32:31,150 --> 00:32:34,310 S2: wasn't a lot of vitriol for those people who did 534 00:32:34,310 --> 00:32:35,550 S2: that to him. Right? 535 00:32:36,430 --> 00:32:41,229 S6: Right. Well, what I heard, you know, over the years, 536 00:32:41,230 --> 00:32:44,710 S6: I've heard him tell the story because I was very young, 537 00:32:45,150 --> 00:32:50,270 S6: and I remember more about how my mother reacted because 538 00:32:50,470 --> 00:32:56,510 S6: I was with her and, um, and she, uh, you know, 539 00:32:56,950 --> 00:32:59,870 S6: she was this woman who had eight kids who, who 540 00:33:00,310 --> 00:33:01,710 S6: didn't know if she was going to be a widow 541 00:33:01,710 --> 00:33:06,510 S6: or not. And, um, after afterwards when my dad was healing, uh, 542 00:33:06,510 --> 00:33:09,230 S6: I would ride with my mother, uh, twice a week 543 00:33:09,230 --> 00:33:11,830 S6: to Mount Bayou because he was in the hospital. 544 00:33:12,150 --> 00:33:13,270 S5: In a black county. 545 00:33:13,470 --> 00:33:17,150 S6: Yeah. And, uh,, and we would, uh, I would feed 546 00:33:17,150 --> 00:33:20,110 S6: off of her and, uh, and she let me know 547 00:33:20,110 --> 00:33:23,110 S6: that he was okay and that she was all right 548 00:33:23,230 --> 00:33:28,950 S6: because her, her countenance showed worry. And, and that's what 549 00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:31,350 S6: I picked up on as a child. 550 00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:36,350 S2: Um, talk about your mom because there was a picture 551 00:33:36,350 --> 00:33:39,870 S2: that went out on social media of her or I 552 00:33:39,870 --> 00:33:43,630 S2: think it was her hand holding your dad's hand there 553 00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:48,430 S2: toward the end. Um, how is she doing, Priscilla? You first. 554 00:33:49,270 --> 00:33:55,390 S5: Well, they, um, got together when she was probably about 15. Well, 555 00:33:55,390 --> 00:34:00,030 S5: they got married when she was 19. Uh, and well, 556 00:34:00,550 --> 00:34:05,750 S5: 18 really. And, uh, and so they've been together for 557 00:34:05,790 --> 00:34:11,350 S5: almost 75 years that that is a whole lifetime. So she, 558 00:34:11,390 --> 00:34:17,350 S5: she has been by his side, bent his backbone, and 559 00:34:17,710 --> 00:34:24,469 S5: she was. She did not choose this lifestyle, uh, very, 560 00:34:24,510 --> 00:34:28,469 S5: very easily, uh, in the very beginning. But God changed 561 00:34:28,469 --> 00:34:32,430 S5: her heart. And, uh, they came together here in Mississippi 562 00:34:32,430 --> 00:34:36,589 S5: to Mississippi in 1960. So, um, she was a, a 563 00:34:36,750 --> 00:34:42,029 S5: southern girl, cotton picking, uh, girl who was just as 564 00:34:42,030 --> 00:34:45,750 S5: strong as he was. Uh, so, uh, she, she could 565 00:34:45,750 --> 00:34:48,629 S5: pick as much cotton as he could. So, uh, she 566 00:34:48,630 --> 00:34:51,950 S5: was a strong woman who had eight children, ran the 567 00:34:51,950 --> 00:34:55,390 S5: ministry while he was away. She would call it in 568 00:34:55,390 --> 00:35:00,110 S5: Diddy while Diddy. So he was all over the place. Uh, 569 00:35:00,110 --> 00:35:03,150 S5: and like, and coach, you know, they did a hundred 570 00:35:03,150 --> 00:35:06,230 S5: cities in two years. So my mom, she, she would, uh, 571 00:35:06,270 --> 00:35:10,270 S5: be hold the home front down. So, uh, so she 572 00:35:10,270 --> 00:35:14,919 S5: taught us how to run ministries. And, um, and that's 573 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,400 S5: what we picked up on. We learned from her and 574 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,399 S5: we prayed and asked God for a double portion of 575 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,840 S5: each of them. And we, we've been blessed to have 576 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,759 S5: parents like that, but we've been. 577 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,200 S2: And it sounds like sounds like coach, that there would 578 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,120 S2: not be a John Perkins if there weren't a Vera Mae. Right? 579 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,200 S3: Absolutely. She held down the, uh, she held down the 580 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,360 S3: fort and she. Verme is such a wonderful person. And, uh, 581 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,759 S3: you know, her favorite song is the Lord Knows the 582 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,279 S3: Way Through the wilderness. And she sings that all the time. 583 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,480 S3: And she would just sing to JP. Elizabeth sent me 584 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,759 S3: a little time when JP was, you know, we call 585 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,200 S3: him JP that's kind of his nickname. But when he 586 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,560 S3: was really just in his last on his last days, um, 587 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,479 S3: and she was singing Christian songs to him, uh, and 588 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,239 S3: he loved her. He talked to me all the time 589 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,879 S3: of how much he loved Vera Mae and how she helped. 590 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,880 S3: I mean, she told him the truth. And that's the 591 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,320 S3: good thing, you know. You know, to have a wife. 592 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,279 S3: You know, my wife Anne tells me the truth. We 593 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,480 S3: need people around us who will speak the truth to us. 594 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,080 S3: And Vera Mae, she wasn't just to go along and 595 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,520 S3: get along. She would tell JP what she really believed 596 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,680 S3: and what she thought, which helped him to be the 597 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,759 S3: man of God. That that he that he was. 598 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,640 S2: We're hearing about the personal impact of one man on 599 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,880 S2: so many people's lives. It's Coach Gordon. We're also hearing 600 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:49,080 S2: from Priscilla and Elizabeth Perkins. But I want you to 601 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,240 S2: hear from another man. He's a preacher who lives down 602 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,000 S2: in Dallas who was at the memorial service. I want 603 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,560 S2: you to hear a little of Doctor Tony Evans and 604 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,959 S2: what he had to say, and will do that right 605 00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:03,879 S2: after this on Moody Radio. Go to Chris Fabry live Dot. 606 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:21,279 S10: As a college student in Atlanta, I found myself as 607 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,120 S10: a man between two worlds. On the one hand, I 608 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:35,799 S10: was being deeply and legitimately indoctrinated evangelically with the fundamentals 609 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,480 S10: of the faith, the authority of Scripture, the centrality of 610 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:47,120 S10: Jesus Christ, the Trinitarian doctrine of the faith, and all 611 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:52,239 S10: of the things that made biblical centricity central to the 612 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:57,920 S10: Christian faith. But on the other side, I was seeing 613 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,000 S10: the inequities that came with many who wore the tag 614 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:09,759 S10: evangelical as a student in Atlanta. I went to an 615 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:14,200 S10: evangelical church that told me I was not welcome to 616 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,879 S10: go there, but they stood on the authority of Scripture 617 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,920 S10: and the inerrancy of the text. Yet, as a black man, 618 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,960 S10: I was unwelcomed. But on the other side of the coin, 619 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:40,520 S10: I saw push for justice that ignored Scripture, that allowed 620 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:46,440 S10: race to trump the Word of God. So the question 621 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:52,000 S10: that I had to raise was, how do I walk 622 00:38:52,040 --> 00:39:00,520 S10: with this vertical standard of right mixed with this horizontal 623 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:07,200 S10: inequity of wrong? And where do they meet? Into John 624 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:13,040 S10: Perkins because he came to my school and not only 625 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,439 S10: did he speak in chapel, but he spoke to this 626 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:24,319 S10: young student, and it was that meeting with him that 627 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:30,200 S10: gave birth to the clarity of the understanding of both 628 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:35,800 S10: the content and scope of the gospel, that the content 629 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,000 S10: of the gospel, the faith alone and the finished work 630 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:44,640 S10: of Christ, takes you to heaven. But the scope of 631 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:52,799 S10: the gospel changes you on earth. That the content of 632 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:58,040 S10: the gospel gives you eternity. But the scope of the 633 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:03,960 S10: gospel shows you how to function in time, and because 634 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:10,770 S10: John Perkins. hit the intersection of time and eternity. Heaven 635 00:40:10,770 --> 00:40:17,370 S10: and earth. You know, in football, if you're going to 636 00:40:17,410 --> 00:40:23,009 S10: hit a field goal, it's got to go between two posts. 637 00:40:24,530 --> 00:40:28,810 S10: If it leans to one side or the other, there 638 00:40:28,810 --> 00:40:34,129 S10: is no score. John Perkins understood that if you were 639 00:40:34,130 --> 00:40:39,410 S10: going to get the gospel straight, it had to go 640 00:40:39,410 --> 00:40:46,650 S10: between the posts of both justice and righteousness. That the 641 00:40:46,690 --> 00:40:55,010 S10: gospel that forgave sins also healed racism. If the gospel 642 00:40:56,450 --> 00:41:07,770 S10: that purified the heart also cleansed the community. That the gospel. 643 00:41:10,010 --> 00:41:13,250 S10: Where you will eat at the table of the Lord 644 00:41:14,010 --> 00:41:17,570 S10: also allows you to eat in a restaurant in the city, 645 00:41:19,410 --> 00:41:24,649 S10: because he understood Luke four that the good news of 646 00:41:24,650 --> 00:41:31,530 S10: the gospel that year of Jubilee not only got people 647 00:41:31,530 --> 00:41:35,890 S10: right with God, but according to Leviticus 25, it set 648 00:41:35,890 --> 00:41:43,570 S10: the slaves free. It removed poverty and it took things 649 00:41:43,570 --> 00:41:46,850 S10: and brought order back to an unordered society. 650 00:41:48,050 --> 00:41:51,250 S2: So many people spoke at that memorial, and we've got 651 00:41:51,250 --> 00:41:52,730 S2: a link to that if you want to see the 652 00:41:52,730 --> 00:41:57,770 S2: whole thing. You can go to chris.org, click through and 653 00:41:57,770 --> 00:42:01,290 S2: hear that. Elizabeth Perkins, was there something that happened at 654 00:42:01,330 --> 00:42:05,450 S2: that memorial that surprised you? I mean, you heard stories 655 00:42:05,450 --> 00:42:08,410 S2: about your dad for a long time. Anything rise to 656 00:42:08,450 --> 00:42:09,810 S2: the surface there that day? 657 00:42:10,730 --> 00:42:14,170 S6: I think what it wasn't something I heard, but it 658 00:42:14,170 --> 00:42:19,490 S6: was more along something I saw. And I saw all 659 00:42:19,810 --> 00:42:23,690 S6: types of people attending. I saw people who I didn't 660 00:42:23,690 --> 00:42:28,089 S6: expect to see there and they all when they greeted me, 661 00:42:28,090 --> 00:42:31,330 S6: they all had this great love and like Wayne, talked 662 00:42:31,330 --> 00:42:35,210 S6: about how they felt like he was their best friend. Yes. 663 00:42:35,650 --> 00:42:39,170 S6: And so that's what I saw, more so than I 664 00:42:39,210 --> 00:42:40,489 S6: heard at the funeral. 665 00:42:40,770 --> 00:42:42,530 S2: Mhm. Priscilla, what about you? 666 00:42:43,489 --> 00:42:49,290 S5: Um, the homegoing celebration. It was, uh, it was a 667 00:42:49,290 --> 00:42:54,850 S5: profoundly sacred and triumphant witness for me. It was a 668 00:42:55,010 --> 00:43:01,210 S5: gathering that was filled with reverence, joy, and it was 669 00:43:01,370 --> 00:43:08,770 S5: unmistakably the presence of God in that room. Um, people 670 00:43:08,770 --> 00:43:17,969 S5: gave testimonies of a life poured out in faith, courage. 671 00:43:18,770 --> 00:43:23,969 S5: And my father had an unwavering commitment to the ministry 672 00:43:23,969 --> 00:43:29,170 S5: of reconciliation. And the reconciliation was full. It was vertical 673 00:43:29,410 --> 00:43:34,170 S5: and horizontal. A man full of love. So I was 674 00:43:34,170 --> 00:43:40,050 S5: just blown away. But one, one, one of the one 675 00:43:40,050 --> 00:43:43,250 S5: thing that I saw was when Bennie Thompson got up 676 00:43:43,250 --> 00:43:47,489 S5: there and said, John Perkins is the only person that 677 00:43:47,489 --> 00:43:49,050 S5: could get, um. 678 00:43:49,370 --> 00:43:50,930 S6: Governor Haley Barbour. 679 00:43:51,130 --> 00:43:53,850 S5: Haley Barbour and me in the room together to agree on. 680 00:43:53,850 --> 00:43:59,130 S5: And that was so funny. That is great. But he 681 00:43:59,130 --> 00:44:02,290 S5: can do you know, That's what love and reconciliation can do. 682 00:44:02,330 --> 00:44:06,210 S5: That's when you can bring, bring people close enough to 683 00:44:06,250 --> 00:44:09,130 S5: see each other, hear each other. Yes. 684 00:44:09,250 --> 00:44:12,450 S2: We're building bridges like we were talking about before. And 685 00:44:12,450 --> 00:44:14,489 S2: two things before we end here today. Two things that 686 00:44:14,489 --> 00:44:17,130 S2: I want to say is an action point. Give to 687 00:44:17,170 --> 00:44:21,930 S2: the memorial fund, if you can, to John M Perkins Memorial. 688 00:44:21,930 --> 00:44:26,170 S2: There is a link@chris.org. And the other thing is to 689 00:44:26,210 --> 00:44:28,930 S2: get a book by Doctor Perkins. If you've never read 690 00:44:28,930 --> 00:44:31,969 S2: One Blood or let justice roll down or count it 691 00:44:31,969 --> 00:44:34,969 S2: all joy or dream with me or with justice for all. 692 00:44:34,969 --> 00:44:36,610 S2: If you haven't read, those are the one that he 693 00:44:36,610 --> 00:44:39,529 S2: did with you. Wayne, get a copy of that book 694 00:44:39,570 --> 00:44:42,210 S2: and get into it and maybe let justice roll down. 695 00:44:42,210 --> 00:44:44,850 S2: Would be a great place to start. Uh, Wayne, I'm 696 00:44:44,850 --> 00:44:47,410 S2: going to give you the last word here today. What 697 00:44:47,410 --> 00:44:48,010 S2: do you say? 698 00:44:49,090 --> 00:44:52,330 S3: Well, I just, you know, my family and I and 699 00:44:52,330 --> 00:44:55,049 S3: the people of Lawndale are just so privileged that we 700 00:44:55,090 --> 00:44:59,260 S3: got to have this really intimate relationship with John Perkins 701 00:44:59,260 --> 00:45:02,180 S3: and my wife, Anne. He and Anne just got along so. 702 00:45:02,219 --> 00:45:04,180 S3: Anne has this look that she would give you. And 703 00:45:04,180 --> 00:45:06,580 S3: John would always say, Anne's giving us that look. And 704 00:45:06,580 --> 00:45:09,780 S3: so because there was just this depth in their relationship 705 00:45:10,060 --> 00:45:13,060 S3: and all three of my kids, you know, they they 706 00:45:13,060 --> 00:45:17,219 S3: all call him Grandpa Perkins and, you know, they all Angela, 707 00:45:17,219 --> 00:45:20,660 S3: Andrew and Austin. God used John Perkins in all of 708 00:45:20,660 --> 00:45:24,339 S3: their lives. I have countless stories of, of that. But 709 00:45:24,340 --> 00:45:27,140 S3: John always woke up in the morning with something on 710 00:45:27,140 --> 00:45:31,420 S3: his mind. He would have fresh thoughts. And Anne always 711 00:45:31,420 --> 00:45:32,980 S3: wanted to be the first one to get him. He 712 00:45:32,980 --> 00:45:35,500 S3: would get up in our house and make his own breakfast. 713 00:45:35,540 --> 00:45:37,580 S3: He'd get up early and just sit there with his 714 00:45:37,580 --> 00:45:41,380 S3: Bible and his newspaper. And when Anne would get in there, 715 00:45:41,380 --> 00:45:43,420 S3: she would she would want to. She would race to 716 00:45:43,420 --> 00:45:45,940 S3: get in there before me so she could see here. 717 00:45:45,940 --> 00:45:50,460 S3: What was that first thought? The remarkable human being of 718 00:45:50,460 --> 00:45:53,979 S3: John Perkins, and the fact that that we all. And 719 00:45:53,980 --> 00:45:56,299 S3: even if you didn't get to know him, you can like, 720 00:45:56,340 --> 00:45:59,060 S3: read a book and listen to one of his talks 721 00:45:59,060 --> 00:46:03,140 S3: on YouTube or places support. I want I also want 722 00:46:03,140 --> 00:46:09,020 S3: to encourage everybody to support the foundation and pray for Elizabeth. Yes, 723 00:46:09,060 --> 00:46:13,940 S3: pray for Priscilla. And then Joni Perkins, who is the 724 00:46:13,940 --> 00:46:17,220 S3: older daughter. She is chair of the board and doing 725 00:46:17,219 --> 00:46:21,300 S3: a fantastic job. So let's let's let their. They're working 726 00:46:21,340 --> 00:46:25,060 S3: to keep these. The momentum going of John Perkins life. 727 00:46:25,060 --> 00:46:29,260 S3: But it's the principles he taught us that is going forward. 728 00:46:29,260 --> 00:46:32,140 S3: And they're helping us to do that. So what a 729 00:46:32,140 --> 00:46:34,299 S3: joy it is to talk about. John. 730 00:46:34,340 --> 00:46:37,739 S2: You've done a great job, coach. And Elizabeth and Priscilla 731 00:46:37,739 --> 00:46:40,180 S2: to kind of capture his spirit. I hope we've done 732 00:46:40,180 --> 00:46:42,500 S2: that here today. Thank you. Go to the website. You 733 00:46:42,500 --> 00:46:44,819 S2: can see all that we've been talking about right there. 734 00:46:44,820 --> 00:46:48,500 S2: Chris Fabry live dot o r g. Our program's production 735 00:46:48,500 --> 00:46:52,100 S2: of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.