S1: Atomic Habits meets Jesus today on building relationships with Doctor
S1: Gary Chapman.
S2: So a spiritual habit is responding to God and paying
S2: attention to what he is doing, but doing it at
S2: his pace and in his his grace.
S3: The goal isn't to really do some impressive spiritual stuff
S3: for a week, but to make this stuff ingrained in
S3: our lives. So we are people of prayer and people
S3: of the Bible.
S1: Welcome to Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S1: the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages. Well,
S1: we want our homes to be places of refuge and
S1: a spiritual oasis, but many feel like they're failing at
S1: that endeavor. Enter our guest today who want to help
S1: you build spiritual habits in the home.
S4: Two entrepreneurial dads will join us Chris Pappalardo and Clayton Green.
S4: They want to help you move beyond good intentions to
S4: actually practicing these habits. And as always, our host is
S4: Doctor Gary Chapman. Gary. My guess is you might have
S4: employed some of these habits in your own family, and
S4: you had no idea that you were doing that at
S4: the time.
S5: Well, I wouldn't have called them habits at the time.
S5: You're right. It's just things that I did, I learned
S5: as I went. This is true of a lot of us,
S5: and that's why I think a book like this is
S5: going to be really helpful, because it's taking what other
S5: people have found to be helpful, bringing it, you know,
S5: to any anybody out there that's willing to read the book.
S5: So I think it's going to be a great aid
S5: to parents who want to do well, you know, in
S5: raising their children. So this I'm looking forward to our
S5: conversation today.
S4: Well, let me introduce our guest, doctor Chris Pappalardo is
S4: a pastor editor, writer at the Summit Church in Raleigh, Durham,
S4: North Carolina. In that area, he's an author and co-founder
S4: of Goodkind, the makers of Advent Blocks, an organization that
S4: helps people cultivate the good kind of habits and holiday celebrations.
S4: He's married to Jen and is the proud dad of
S4: Lottie and Teddy, and alongside him, Clayton Green is CEO
S4: and co-founder of Goodkind. Clayton is also the Summit Collaborative director,
S4: where he supports more than 70 independent church plants. The
S4: Greens live in Durham, North Carolina with their two daughters,
S4: Cara and Susan. Our featured resource is the book Building
S4: Spiritual Habits in the Home small steps you can take today.
S4: Just go to Building relationships.
S5: Well, Chris and Clayton, welcome to Building Relationships.
S2: Thank you for having us. So excited to be here.
S5: Nice to have a couple of North Carolinians on the
S5: program because as you know, that's where I live. So
S5: we don't often spoke to people from North Carolina on
S5: the program. So great to have you here. And we
S5: love the Summit Church and that ministry that you're both
S5: involved in. So let's start, uh, Chris and Clayton, uh, with, uh,
S5: talking about your families and your ministries and how the
S5: two of you became friends. Uh, which one of you
S5: wants to start, Chris? You or Clayton?
S3: I'll take this one. Um, Clayton and I had met
S3: years ago while we were both at the Summit Church,
S3: but we didn't get to know each other until after
S3: he left. Went to be part of a church plant
S3: in Wilmington, and then came back about, I want to say, uh,
S3: eight years ago. And we immediately reconnected and hit it
S3: off because we were both trying to figure out how
S3: to do real ministry within our homes. Like, how do
S3: we translate this stuff that we're doing for work to
S3: the little people that that walk around with us? And, um,
S3: it really went from good to great. One year when
S3: he reached out to me and said, hey, I've got
S3: an idea for an advent resource, and I think you'd
S3: be the perfect person to write it, which is what
S3: started what is now this partnership with Goodkind. And over
S3: and over again, him coming to me and saying, this
S3: is hard. I wish we could make it easier by
S3: doing X, Y, and Z and me saying, all right,
S3: I guess we're about to work on a new project.
S5: Well that's great. I'm glad that God brought the two
S5: of you together. At the beginning of the program, we
S5: said this book is Atomic Habits Meets Jesus. For those
S5: who don't know about that book, why is it so important?
S2: Yeah, that's a, um. It's a good question if you
S2: don't know what atomic habits is. James Clear wrote a
S2: book and it's it's become pretty popular, and it's helpful
S2: for people who want to be consistent with a new
S2: habit being a little bit more consistent. So it draws
S2: a lot on habit, science and how to be more
S2: consistent in your habits. And actually, we kind of make
S2: the joke that I'm the habits guy and Chris is
S2: the Jesus guy, but, um, it's not exactly like that. Um,
S2: but genuinely, I've read a number of different habits. Science books, uh,
S2: switch is one by Chip and Dan Heath. Of course.
S2: There's atomic habits. There's the power of habit. I mean,
S2: there's a lot of these books, but every time I
S2: would be reading these books, Gary, I would I'd be
S2: actually applying it to my spiritual life to be more
S2: consistent with Bible reading or to to pray more often.
S2: And so I was always applying it there and then
S2: what Chris was kind of jesting about there in terms
S2: of our relationship is I come to Chris and I'd say, hey, why?
S2: You know, the habit scientists say that, you know, reminding
S2: yourself is important for being consistent with a new habit.
S2: Is that in the Bible? And he'd say, well, actually.
S2: And what we found is what James explains in Atomic Habits.
S2: You know, God actually wired into our being. And we
S2: see that in Scripture as well. So this book is
S2: a marriage of those things where we see the foundation
S2: of these things in Scripture, and we see a direct
S2: and practical application of it for what it means for
S2: our families today.
S5: Yeah. So, Clayton, who's this book for?
S2: Yeah, it's for me and Chris. Right. Most people, I guess.
S6: Right? Yes, 100%.
S2: Right, right, right. Books that they're trying to process and
S2: they're actually learning something themselves. So if I would just
S2: take that and extrapolate it out, I would say it
S2: was it's for any person, but probably a parent who
S2: is trying to create an alignment between what they say
S2: about their faith and how they actually live their faith.
S2: Because sometimes it's hard to actually get consistent in what
S2: you're doing on a day in and day out basis.
S2: Back to that story that Chris was saying about advent.
S2: The reason we did that is because in 2018, my
S2: daughter Cara said to us, Mommy and Daddy, you say
S2: that Christmas is all about Jesus, but it feels like
S2: Christmas is all about presents. And so she was pointing
S2: out a lack of alignment, right? Eugene Peterson would call
S2: that congruence where what we were saying and what we
S2: were living was somehow mismatched for her. And and we've
S2: been trying to work to solve that in our lives.
S2: And this book is the playbook of how we attack
S2: those problems.
S5: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we talked about the fact that the
S5: habits there's a lot of books out there about habits,
S5: and then there's a lot of books out there on
S5: spiritual disciplines. So what makes this book different?
S3: Well, part of what makes the book different is that
S3: it is a little bit of both. There's a good
S3: friend of ours. As we were getting into writing this book,
S3: who we said, hey, what's the best book you've read
S3: about developing spiritual habits? And the answer he gave was
S3: a book written by a non-Christian that had nothing to
S3: do with spirituality. But he felt like it's just the
S3: most practical thing in terms of helping me develop better habits.
S3: And all I do is apply it to Jesus's stuff.
S3: And so we felt like it doesn't. You don't have
S3: to just take a really good book on spiritual disciplines
S3: and a really good book on habit formation, and then
S3: try to figure out how they get along. We said,
S3: wouldn't it be nice if these two went together, if
S3: we could have it be biblically deep? But also this
S3: is really important for us, really, really applicable and practical.
S3: So people could read it and say, oh, you know what?
S3: I could totally do that. I could do that today.
S5: Yeah, I think folks are looking for that kind of
S5: doable things. So so I think in that case that
S5: book is going to meet a real need.
S4: Our guests are Doctor Chris Pappalardo and Clayton Green. You
S4: can find out more about them and our resource at
S4: the website. Building relationships.
S5: Okay, Clayton, define spiritual habits and tell us how you
S5: build them into your home. Give us some illustrations of
S5: how you get started with this.
S2: Yeah, well, the the book opens with a chapter on, um,
S2: five things about God and what that means for our
S2: spiritual habits. And those are really, really important for us,
S2: defining what a spiritual habit is. Um, it's God starts
S2: his the relationship with us. He wants to know us.
S2: He's there, but we can't see him. He prefers to
S2: work slowly and he is gracious. So that's five things
S2: that I kind of rifle through there really, really quickly.
S2: But that first one ends up being a really big
S2: and important thing for how we define spiritual habits. We
S2: say that a spiritual habits is us responding to a
S2: God who loves us and paying attention to what he
S2: is doing at his pace and in his grace. The
S2: short version of that is we respond and pay attention.
S2: So when we're praying, we're not initiating something there, right?
S2: God starts. God started the relationship with us. He created us.
S2: He is giving us his word. And so our spiritual
S2: habit is always going to be a response to a
S2: conversation he has already started. The same thing is true
S2: of the Bible. The Bible is God's word to us, right?
S2: And so when we sit down to read it, we're
S2: not sitting down, initiating and trying to master some kind
S2: of new information. We're we're responding to a God who
S2: wants to know us and has revealed himself to us
S2: in his word. So a spiritual habit, the way that
S2: we define it in the book, is responding to God
S2: and paying attention to what he is doing, but doing
S2: it at his pace and in his his grace.
S5: Chris, why don't you walk us through the six small
S5: steps that you suggest in the book, and then we'll
S5: look at them individually.
S3: Sure. Yeah. The six steps are number one. Make it easy.
S3: Number two, make it tangible. Number three, pick a place.
S3: Number four. Choose your timing. Number five. Make it playful.
S3: And then number six. Find your friends.
S5: Okay. Let's go back to. Let's go back to number one.
S5: Spiritual habits should start easily. And not just easy, but
S5: ridiculously easy. You say, uh, what does that mean?
S3: Yeah. We. The first of the six steps we list
S3: is make it easy. And again, the habit. Science books
S3: say this all the time, but we just felt like
S3: we had to start here and drill it home. Because
S3: in our practice and we think we are, a lot
S3: of people follow us on this. We get excited about
S3: doing some new spiritual habit, either by ourselves or with
S3: our family. I'm going to pray more. I'm going to
S3: read the Bible more, and we set a goal. And
S3: it doesn't feel outlandish to us, but we do it
S3: for like two weeks, three weeks, and we burn out.
S3: And then what happens after that? We feel like failures.
S3: If you know, the motivation to like, start again is
S3: then colored with shame. Because I should have been doing
S3: this more. What's wrong with my heart spiritually that I
S3: don't want to pray? So we said, all right, we
S3: don't want people to just always be doing the bare minimum.
S3: But here's the deal. If you start small, you can
S3: do that consistently. Whether you're talking about working out or
S3: drinking more water or praying. And the more you do
S3: this thing consistently, the more it will feel like you're
S3: winning and you're doing it right, and that will build
S3: momentum to continue doing it. So those small steps and
S3: making it like so absurdly easy, it's so easy that like,
S3: you're almost embarrassed to say that this is my new goal.
S3: That's actually just right to build momentum, to make this
S3: a habit, which is what we want. The goal isn't
S3: to really do some impressive spiritual stuff for a week,
S3: but to make this stuff ingrained in our lives. So
S3: we are people of prayer and people of the Bible.
S2: Yeah, yeah. And it has to be. It has to
S2: be something that is consistent with what Jesus says as well.
S2: Now Jesus says we have to take up our cross
S2: and follow him. But he also says that the yoke
S2: is easy. The the burden is light, right? So we
S2: want to take him at his word there. But his
S2: correction there is is against the the Pharisees and them
S2: adding additional things to do. So it's not that we
S2: we think that that our spiritual lives, there are hard
S2: parts to it, but particularly if we think about our families,
S2: we don't want to be doing a spiritual habit, that
S2: it looks too hard or not appealing to our kids
S2: because we actually want to bring them along in it. So.
S2: So making the starting point Easy is a way to
S2: invite a new believer, of which our children hopefully are
S2: all going to take that step at some point, and
S2: it provides an easy way for us to invite them
S2: in as well. So it's not just about us, it's
S2: about involving our families as well.
S6: Yeah.
S5: That's great. I think a lot of parents are saying, hmm,
S5: I like that. Let's start easy. So what about tangible,
S5: you say another one is to make it tangible.
S3: We came around to this, like, very pragmatically. We made
S3: a thing I mentioned called Advent Blocks, which is this
S3: advent resource. That's not just stories, but there are blocks
S3: on the mantel where you turn each block as the
S3: days go along, and each reading builds on that. And
S3: we were stunned that it was having the physical thing
S3: in the room that made our kids want to do
S3: these stories every day leading up to Christmas. Um, and
S3: so when when we backed up to say, like, was
S3: that an accident? We realized, no, that the tangible element
S3: was what made them care. And that's when we turn
S3: to Scripture to say, well, was there anything in the
S3: Bible about our faith being tangible? And it's wild to
S3: me that we hadn't asked that question before, because the
S3: moment we asked it, everything started to come alive. And
S3: you start to see, well, God, all throughout the Old
S3: Testament says, hey, build an altar here for me. Build
S3: this temple here. And telling people to build all sorts
S3: of tangible things, and often saying when your sons and
S3: their their sons and generations to come look at this
S3: and say, what is this for? You're to tell them,
S3: this is where God met me and did such and such.
S3: So the the tangibility was meant to act as a
S3: reminder for God's people in the from the altars of
S3: the Old Testament through the Passover meal, which Jesus then
S3: picked up. And at the Lord's Supper he didn't say,
S3: all right, guys, we've graduated now, and you don't need
S3: tangible reminders because this is the this is the varsity version.
S3: And they were JV. No, he said, this is still tangible. Like,
S3: I want you to keep eating this. Keep drinking this.
S3: Because the more you do this tangible thing, the more
S3: you'll be reminded of this spiritual reality.
S5: So give us another example. You mentioned the advent blocks
S5: as a tangible thing. Give us another example of of
S5: something tangible in a habit that you suggest.
S2: Well, I mean, the easiest one to throw out there
S2: would be your Bible. I mean, that's a very tangible thing, right?
S2: So we say that the tangible things you have, um,
S2: they should they should draw you in and they should
S2: help you do the, the habit itself. It's not that
S2: we're just saying that you that you put a piece
S2: of tape on the wall that says, remember, remember to
S2: pray though that could be something that could could help.
S2: But putting your Bible beside the chair that you sit
S2: in in the evening after your kids go to sleep,
S2: or that you that you sit down in, um, after
S2: dinner putting your Bible there, that can be a reminder
S2: that you're ready to read. That's a that's a tangible reminder. Um,
S2: another one that we've that our families do is it's
S2: something called the cube. It's a 12 sided die that
S2: we put on our our dinner tables. There's one on mine,
S2: there's one on Chris's. Uh, and what happens is our
S2: our kids pick it up and they roll it. And
S2: what they think they're doing is playing a little game
S2: with the dice, you know, a 12 sided die. But
S2: actually what they're doing is they're initiating a meaningful conversation
S2: where we're pointing them to God's presence in their life
S2: and how to be grateful about that. And so those
S2: those tangible reminders, they're kind of like little spiritual speed
S2: bumps where they're like making us kind of pause, bringing
S2: our attention to what we were we're wanting to do
S2: in that moment.
S5: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Number three, in the
S5: small steps that we can take, you say is picking
S5: a place and how important that is.
S2: Yeah, absolutely. Um, James, clear that atomic Habits book. He
S2: says that you we are often victims of our environment,
S2: but you can also be the architect of your environment.
S2: So that's what he says. But when we look in
S2: the Bible, we see that in the in the Old
S2: Testament where God was was very, very clear. Right? We
S2: could we could measure our distance from him. He was
S2: on a mountain. And that that told us something about him.
S2: He was in the fire. He was in the temple,
S2: which there's fire that comes down and there's the Holy
S2: of Holies. All of these different things were instructional. They
S2: were telling God's people about where he was, who he was,
S2: and how to relate to him. Right. So the place
S2: that we're doing our spiritual habits, the places that we're living,
S2: our lives are doing. James Clear says we're a victim
S2: of those things. It's doing something to us. And so, Gary,
S2: we like to kind of joke like, what does what
S2: does your environment, like, teach you about God? You know,
S2: what does it teach you about life? I would say
S2: my environment, I don't know about yours teaches me that
S2: I need to stop by target and pick up something,
S2: you know, because it's just it's right there. And so
S2: we think that we can be a little bit more intentional,
S2: probably more so in our homes than on the highway
S2: of actually pointing us towards God and being and thinking
S2: about where we're doing our spiritual habits. So if you
S2: have kids that are doing homework or homeschool, I think
S2: it's probably a good idea to have them reading their
S2: Bible in a different location just because we want them
S2: to think of it, of it differently. Or if you're
S2: wanting to have a meaningful conversation with your family or
S2: people who come over, you probably don't want to be
S2: sitting in a room that has everybody's phones and TV around.
S2: So the place ends up being important because it's it's
S2: the place is actually directing how we how we're experiencing
S2: the moment. I think we would all understand that reading
S2: your Bible in a library or reading your Bible on
S2: the side of a mountain is going to make you
S2: experience something different. And that's something beautiful, you know? And
S2: but we think we should pay attention to that in
S2: order to take advantage of it.
S5: Yeah. So in the spring and summer, taking the children
S5: outside at the same place every time, every day for
S5: a while. Uh, would that be an example of that?
S5: It's a different place from what they would normally do.
S3: Oh, absolutely. I mean, here's the deal. The last thing
S3: you would want to do is to find a place
S3: that your kids naturally tighten up and don't enjoy, and
S3: then attach something spiritually significant to that because they will
S3: have an association of, I don't like this. Even though
S3: they can't articulate it. Yeah. If you're if the weather
S3: is is nice and you'd be like, hey, let's go
S3: outside and have this conversation or let's go outside and
S3: we'll do a brief lesson about whatever this is. I mean,
S3: how many times did Jesus offer his teaching in a
S3: church setting? A few times, right? He was in synagogue,
S3: but most of the time he was like, okay, guys,
S3: see these birds? See these flowers? You see that building
S3: over there? So, I mean, there's there's a lot of
S3: value to taking it outside if you can have if
S3: you're nimble enough to be able to recognize what God
S3: might be doing in that situation and how to make
S3: it relevant for your kids. And if you're okay with
S3: them finding worms and saying, okay, I guess that's what
S3: we're doing now instead, because that's also fine. They're children,
S3: you know?
S5: Yeah, absolutely. A lot depends on the age too, right?
S6: Yes.
S5: All right. Number four is, uh, simple steps we're talking about, uh,
S5: is choosing your timing is important.
S2: Yeah, absolutely. It's important. Gary, I don't know about you,
S2: but every afternoon, around 2 or 3, I kind of
S2: want to take a take a nap or have another coffee. Um,
S2: you know, we we have these circadian rhythms. Daniel Pink
S2: in his his book, When The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing,
S2: he says, everybody has this peak of energy in the morning,
S2: a trough in the afternoon and a peak in the evening.
S2: What I learned from Chris. Chris, I don't know if
S2: you want to speak to this as well, but I
S2: remember when Chris was writing the book and he wrote down,
S2: we didn't create the hours in the seconds, right? God
S2: only created the evening. He created evening and morning, evening
S2: and morning. We see that in in Genesis, in the
S2: creation story. So what we're saying here is the timing really,
S2: really matters. And if you're, um, if you're having a
S2: tough time, uh, reading your Bible, one of the things
S2: you could consider is read your Bible at a different
S2: time of day. Chris, you have a story that goes
S2: along with that, right?
S3: Yeah. I was meeting with a guy here in our church,
S3: this younger guy who was he was like, legitimately doing
S3: some soul searching because he felt like he was a
S3: bad Christian because he was struggling to read the Bible consistently.
S3: And we talked about the spiritual elements. It didn't seem
S3: like he was deconstructing or he had decided that, you know,
S3: he didn't. He was having significant doubts. But then he
S3: mentioned that, like I asked when he was doing this
S3: and he said, well, you know, I just like I
S3: always did in college, I'll do this just before I
S3: go to bed. And the trouble he was having was
S3: that he would fall asleep while he was reading. And
S3: so I was like, hey, this may not be a
S3: spiritual problem at all. It might be that when you
S3: were 20, reading the Bible at 11:00 at night was
S3: fine because you were alert and wide awake, and now
S3: you're 30, and that's harder. So don't do it just
S3: before bed and you won't fall asleep. And it was.
S3: I mean, we both laughed about it because it seemed
S3: so obvious after the fact. But sometimes we we tie
S3: ourselves up and not giving ourselves permission to recognize like,
S3: oh wait, the timing here just might be a little wonky.
S3: That's keeping me from doing a thing I really want
S3: to do.
S5: Yeah, yeah. And then there are people who think you
S5: always have to have your time reading the Bible with
S5: God in the morning, but they're not morning people.
S6: Right.
S3: And pink even mentions that in in his book, he
S3: says that we each have this kind of U shape
S3: of energy to our day, where it starts high in
S3: the morning, it drops in the afternoon and bounces back
S3: up in the evening, but some people have a huge
S3: rally at the end of the day and other people
S3: have a huge rally in the morning, and it's nice
S3: to recognize that, to say like, well, if this is
S3: a significant habit for you, pick the time. You've got
S3: the energy. My wife, she's very disciplined, but she just
S3: cannot do the, like, crack of dawn, anything. She'll get up.
S3: She's got to go to work. She's got to do
S3: her things. But you know, and she recognizes, like, look,
S3: I'm not a lazy person. I just don't like the
S3: first hour of the day, and that's okay.
S6: And I think.
S3: Some people need to hear that.
S5: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Because they feel guilty if they
S5: get the idea that you have to start the day
S5: early in the morning with God, you know, consciously sitting
S5: down with God. And they're just they're not they're not
S5: alert enough to, to do that in the morning.
S6: They could force.
S3: Themselves to do it. And then by 10:00 they would
S3: have no idea what happened.
S6: Yeah.
S3: They had no idea what they read.
S6: Yeah.
S5: You're right. Well, Clayton, one of the chapters in the
S5: book on the steps that we take in building these
S5: spiritual habits with ourselves and our family, there's you've got
S5: a whole chapter on play, uh, you know, in your book.
S5: So describe what that means and how a family can
S5: make it happen in their home.
S2: Yeah. Well, Chris is, uh, writing in the Advent blocks
S2: guide is just incredibly playful. And because we're including our
S2: kids played, it almost seems has to to be a
S2: part of what we're we're doing. Um, and it's actually
S2: not bad. We did some reading on this because it
S2: was so embedded in everything that we were we were doing.
S2: And what we discovered is that there's a lot of
S2: feeling for adults in North America. That probably comes from
S2: a very good thing, the Protestant Protestant work ethic, right?
S2: Where it's like, I'm working, I'm doing good things. I'm
S2: even I'm doing good things for God. But Sometimes that
S2: can slip into the fact that work and seriousness is
S2: a direct reflection of our maturity. But Jesus says, let
S2: the little children come to me. Right. And the reason
S2: that he is giving that, that that analogy there is
S2: because he's talking about their humility and how they come
S2: into the kingdom. And he's he's putting that as an
S2: example in front of us. What we think happens with
S2: play is there's a certain amount of humility that is
S2: necessary in order to play with someone. There's a certain
S2: amount of vulnerability and connection to someone before you start
S2: doing something really silly singing a song, dancing around the
S2: living room, playing a game, whatever it might be. And
S2: so when you do that, interestingly, after you've played that
S2: game or you sang that song, you actually increase your
S2: connection to that person in vulnerability. You weren't thinking about
S2: yourself as much as you were thinking about them. And
S2: so there's actually these very beautiful spiritual things that are
S2: happening in that moment. Now, that doesn't mean that if
S2: you are playing a game that that is somehow inherently spiritual,
S2: but we actually think that it increases memory with our kids.
S2: It increases the appetite for them to engage with us.
S2: And so we think you should, at minimum, be playful
S2: with your kids. And in some ways, we think play
S2: is has the spiritual component to it.
S3: Kids ministries tend to intuitively get this, but I'm I
S3: was stunned that this isn't really a key feature in
S3: anything of what people generally write about spiritual disciplines, or
S3: much of what is written in the habit formation books.
S3: But we found that it's really pivotal. If kids think
S3: stuff is boring, you can force them to do it
S3: a number of times just by making it happen. But
S3: that's not the sort of thing they're going to latch
S3: on to and want to come back to. And so
S3: we've just leaned into it to say, hey, you know,
S3: what would this look like if I were to try
S3: to translate this spiritual habit into the language and practice
S3: of a seven year old? What would make prayer possible
S3: for someone that age. What would make Bible reading possible
S3: for a seven year old? And then just starting that
S3: and inviting us as grown ups into that. This is
S3: true of so many kids resources. We found this with
S3: Advent Blocks. We wrote it for the kids, but we
S3: were kind of like writing it over the shoulders of
S3: the parents. So many of the parents reached out to
S3: us to say, I never realized this about God, about
S3: his presence and his work in the world. And I
S3: think it's not an accident that that happened to them
S3: because they were reading something that was written for an
S3: elementary school kid that was light and like, silly at times.
S3: And it was just the sort of like approach to
S3: something very important that opened their eyes for the first time.
S1: This is the Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
S1: He's the author of the New York Times bestseller The
S1: Five Love Languages. You can take an easy assessment of
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S1: five Love Languages comm. It's the book by our guests
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S5: Okay, so let's say that a family is working through
S5: some of these things, trying to build these habits with
S5: their children as they are younger. But then the children
S5: get to be teenagers. And we all know that a
S5: lot of things begin to happen. The teenagers, the brain
S5: is changing and a lot of other things are going on.
S5: What if in a family you get pushback from your
S5: teenagers when you're trying to, you know, continue to build
S5: these habits into their lives? Or maybe they feel like
S5: you're kind of forcing them into habits that they don't
S5: want now because they are tending to develop logical thought.
S5: And they may question some things that you have been
S5: teaching them. How does a parent deal with all of that?
S2: Well, that's a that's a great question. We, um, neither
S2: one of us have teenagers yet. So this is, um,
S2: this is what we are actively beginning to think and
S2: prepare for. You know, when we think about habits, we
S2: like to think back to the verse, train up a
S2: child in the way he should go. And when he
S2: is old, he will not depart from it. Eugene Peterson
S2: points out the fact that that is saying training, not teaching.
S2: And I think that's when we talk about habits. We're
S2: actually talking about training, not teaching. We're like showing the way.
S2: The example that we like to give, thinking about training
S2: is how many, you know, 5 to 7 year olds
S2: in the United States, do you think could go into
S2: a gas station and find a pack of Sour Patch
S2: Kids and pay for it if they had a credit
S2: card in their hand? I would say almost all of
S2: them could. Now, how many parents actually taught them how
S2: to do that? They actually taught. Here's what a credit
S2: card is. Here's where you go. Here's where you swipe.
S2: This is where they keep the Sour Patch Kids. None
S2: of them. I've never I've never met anyone that has
S2: actually done that. But their kids know how to do it.
S2: So I think if that if you're experiencing that pushback,
S2: which even with our kids, we've experienced pushback on some
S2: things that we tried to do with them. I think
S2: what we're doing most is we're we're modeling for them
S2: and embedding in the operating system of their life something
S2: that they are going to to take with them because
S2: they've seen us do it over and over. My mom
S2: had a recipe for pot roast from her grandma, who
S2: she got the recipe from, from her mom. And so
S2: all these generations had passed down this recipe, and my
S2: mom always would cut off a certain amount of the
S2: pot roast before she would actually put it in. And
S2: at some point somebody asked her, why do you do that?
S2: And she said, well, that's because you have to. That's
S2: what you do. That's what the recipe says. Anyway, she
S2: ended up going to ask her grandma. She said, why
S2: do I cut off the end of this? And she said, oh,
S2: you don't have to cut off the end. My mother
S2: just had a pot that was so small, we always
S2: had to write.
S6: That's training. That's training.
S2: And I think that I think when we think about it,
S2: training over a long period of time, we're going to
S2: experience pushback. But I think that training is going to
S2: go with them.
S6: Yeah.
S5: Yeah. And I think that's really true with teenagers. Uh,
S5: a lot of lot of parents struggle in those teenage
S5: years because they do get pushback for the spiritual habits
S5: they've been trying to build in the lives of those children.
S5: Not always, but but sometimes that happens. Well, the sixth
S5: step that you deal with in the book, uh, is
S5: the step is to find your friends. Unpack that for us.
S3: Yeah. I've always found anecdotally that the success or failure
S3: of any spiritual habit in my life really hinges on
S3: whether or not I do that with somebody else at
S3: the same time. Not everybody is going to have that
S3: as the linchpin for their spiritual disciplines. But it's night
S3: and day difference between deciding to read through the Bible
S3: in a year by myself, and then doing it as
S3: I'm doing right now with my small group. There's just
S3: something about the way God wired us that we are
S3: relational beings and we know this, and yet we very
S3: quickly forget this when it comes to doing significant spiritual stuff.
S3: But God wants us to do this in community. And
S3: when we find our friends, or as we often like
S3: to say, like companions on a spiritual journey because they
S3: don't always have to be your best friend that you
S3: click with. But when you find somebody else you can
S3: link arms with, it will make that experience of, say,
S3: reading the Bible. It'll make it more meaningful. It'll make
S3: it more likely to happen because they'll offer you accountability.
S3: It'll actually make it more fun because they're bringing elements
S3: to it that, uh, that you enjoy. And, and they'll
S3: show you things that you don't know. It's hard to
S3: overstate just how big a deal it is to do
S3: all of this with other people. This is, um, a
S3: saying that if you if you want to go fast,
S3: go alone. But if you want to go far, go together.
S3: And that's like God is going to shape us over
S3: the course of God willing, decades. And if that's the case,
S3: then we have to do this in conjunction with other
S3: people rather than blitzing ahead at any one point, all
S3: by herself on one thing.
S6: Yeah.
S5: So where might a parent or two parents, where might
S5: they find friends that would walk with them on some
S5: of this?
S3: Clayton and I have found each other for this, and
S3: I think the key is to not look for somebody
S3: else who's got it all together, but maybe look for
S3: somebody else who you can be honest with about where
S3: you're not all together. Because this is how it started
S3: with me and Clayton is us saying, man, I really
S3: want this to be the case. I'm having a hard
S3: time doing these devotions regularly with my kids. And then
S3: he said, me too. And then suddenly we were on
S3: our way. And it's surprising how much that that candor
S3: of the struggle will put you in a spot where
S3: you can find somebody else who's willing to kind of
S3: walk along that with you.
S5: Yeah. If there's a leader in a church who leads
S5: a small group listening to us today, uh, I think
S5: this book might be a good starting place for that
S5: leader to introduce to that small group. Does that make sense?
S6: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that'd be awesome.
S3: For a group.
S6: To go through.
S5: So I'm assuming that parents really have to have a
S5: vision for this, uh, this this habit, spiritual habit building,
S5: if they're going to introduce it to their children. So
S5: are there advantages in the parent developing these, uh, habits?
S5: At least some of these habits, uh, apart from their children,
S5: just individually, in their own lives, or the husband and
S5: wife together. Uh, how might that work?
S2: Yeah, I think that doing it at all as a
S2: family is is one way, I think. Doing it separately
S2: as an adult to then lead your kids would be
S2: really important as well. I mean, like I was saying before,
S2: there's a modeling aspect to this. This is not a
S2: do as I say, not as I do situation. It
S2: that's when you really will get the pushback is if
S2: you're creating expectations for habits that you're not also doing
S2: in some some way yourself. But I also just the
S2: encouragement there for someone who might be listening that's that
S2: maybe doesn't have a robust kind of list of spiritual habits.
S2: Is that starting small and engaging with God over a
S2: long period of time? We know that God is going
S2: to do something in us, and so that's where we
S2: put our faith, not in our ability to be consistent
S2: or to do these things. But it's actually we put
S2: our faith in the God who is is going to
S2: change us. And so also what we're trying to do
S2: is to get our kids to engage with that same God.
S2: And so we want to be leading them in it
S2: by by engaging ourselves.
S5: I want to ask each of you this question, Chris.
S5: We'll start with you, but I want Clayton to answer
S5: it also. Uh, how has this book changed your own
S5: spiritual habits?
S3: Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, I mean, at
S3: a certain level, you've got to feel this as well, Gary.
S3: Writing a book puts you in a spot where you really,
S3: really have to ask yourself, am I living this out?
S3: I'm about to tell a bunch of people that this
S3: is the way, and I've got the code cracked, and
S3: they need to go and change all these things in
S3: their lives. Um, I don't want to be the sort
S3: of person who's dishing out advice that I'm not taking. Fortunately,
S3: there was very little as we were writing where we
S3: found that incongruence. But one of the biggest in terms
S3: of my spiritual habits is just recognizing how important a
S3: tangible item is to kickstarting a spiritual habit. And so
S3: we've been trying to pray more with our kids. And
S3: it's an uphill battle right now. Not because they're resistant
S3: to it, they actually are quite open to it. But
S3: it's hard to find the time where it seems natural
S3: and it's not awkwardly jammed in there. So we're trying
S3: to come up with some sort of physical thing that
S3: sparks the question, so that even if just for 30s,
S3: we can sit with them and say, let's, let's thank
S3: God for something today, or where do you need God's help?
S3: We're fussing around with things and may not have found
S3: the perfect physical object. We've got kind of a fidget
S3: right now with some blocks that spin. It may not
S3: be the winner, but I think for the rest of
S3: my life I'm going to carry that with me to say,
S3: all right, I want to start a new spiritual habit,
S3: or I want to invite someone else into this spiritual habit.
S3: First thing I'm going to do is say we need
S3: something that you can hold. If this is going to take.
S6: Yeah.
S2: Um, Gary, I would say for me, it is that
S2: I probably set the expectations for starting a new spiritual
S2: habit lower. So I'm more okay with saying, you know,
S2: I'm going to pray for three minutes this morning rather
S2: than setting the expectation of 15 minutes. Not because I
S2: don't want to pray for 15 minutes, but because I
S2: want to be consistent. Because the more consistent I am,
S2: the the more engaged, uh, overall, spiritually I am. And
S2: I also think that I'm probably more gracious with myself.
S2: You know, Chris mentioned earlier, kind of feeling guilty for
S2: not doing things the way that you intended to do,
S2: not reading the Bible as much as you thought that
S2: you would read. It's actually by removing some of that pressure,
S2: that guilt that actually keeps me engaged. I'm way more
S2: likely to come back because I know, hey, this is hard.
S2: I'm I'm I'm trying to get better at these things.
S2: If I if I get off of my rhythm, I
S2: can pretty easily get back into my rhythm without any guilt,
S2: because I know that God is gracious and invites us
S2: back in, into reengaging with him and and even more so,
S2: you know, I'm applying that as the seasons of my
S2: life change. Like, I recognize that when my my kids are,
S2: you know, three and five, there's a certain amount of
S2: time of day, there's a certain amount of thing that
S2: I can do because they're engaged in my life in
S2: a certain way. When they're 12 and ten, things have changed.
S2: You know, at five and three, I wasn't thinking of
S2: coaching their soccer and how my car ride with them was,
S2: was pertaining to their spiritual habits and, and the conversations
S2: that we would have. But now I do. And that
S2: applies to a lot of things in our life. Gracious
S2: to ourselves and lowering the bar for for the barrier
S2: for entry so that we can actually remain engaged more often.
S5: Is there a time for either of you in which
S5: you made a real course correction in your own spiritual life? Uh,
S5: that would be helpful for our listeners to hear.
S2: The advent block story is a huge course correction for
S2: for me, right where where my daughter Cara said it.
S2: You say that Christmas is all about Jesus and it
S2: feels like Christmas is all about presents. I mean, that's
S2: probably the biggest course correction that I can, I can
S2: think about. I also think about something that Chris and
S2: I have done together, like in terms of, in terms
S2: of fasting. Um, we both wanted to we picked the
S2: day of the week. We were not doing it currently,
S2: but but last year there was a couple of months
S2: in a row where one day a week we would
S2: both fast and, um, we had these tangible reminders like
S2: Chris talked about, like these chips that we would carry
S2: around with us, um, that we would write our prayer
S2: for the day on. And for the first couple of weeks,
S2: I would forget that reminder. And sometimes, you know, I
S2: would be unsuccessful in kind of going through the through
S2: the whole day. So it's actually the location of those
S2: chips that would remind me, hey, by the way, it's Thursday.
S2: This is what you're doing with Chris. I was blaming
S2: myself for not being consistent when actually I just needed
S2: to move my reminder so that I actually continued to
S2: remember and put a calendar invite over my lunch, you know?
S2: So those types of things, um, I've kind of course
S2: corrected on as well. What were you going to say, Chris?
S3: I was going to say, I'm not sure I could
S3: limit this to one.
S6: But, um. Yeah.
S3: Here's a recurring one in my life. I labor under
S3: the the view that if something is good spiritually now,
S3: then it should be good spiritually every day for the
S3: rest of my life. So I've had to learn a
S3: lot that spiritual habits can shift as your season of
S3: life shifts. And that doesn't mean that you've abandoned the faith. Now,
S3: I'm not saying you stop praying or stop reading the Bible,
S3: but the way you do that, the time of day,
S3: like the method of engaging, you know, there's a time
S3: when I was in seminary where part of my quiet
S3: time every day was reading a few verses in Greek
S3: and translating them because I thought, this is I want
S3: to flex this muscle. I want to really get to
S3: know the original language. And I'm not doing that now.
S3: And there's there's a piece of me that says, well,
S3: if you're real Christian, you would keep doing that, that
S3: very fruitful thing.
S6: Yeah.
S3: And I think it just needed to see the freedom
S3: that there are a dozen beautiful things I could do
S3: to get to know God better and be in his presence.
S3: And I'm not going to be doing all 12 of
S3: those things every day for the rest of my life.
S3: And that's okay. I that's a that's a big course
S3: correction I find myself having to make over and over
S3: and over again.
S6: Yeah. Yeah.
S5: As we come to the end of our time together, uh, Clayton,
S5: let me ask you first, and then Chris, I'd like
S5: your answer as well. How do you how do you
S5: visualize in your mind? How do you hope this book
S5: is going to change? A family who begins to try
S5: to put some of these habits into practice? What is
S5: your vision of what how this book could be used
S5: and will be used to help families.
S2: Yeah, I would love for this to be a book
S2: that becomes a strategy for starting new spiritual habits throughout
S2: the rest of a family's kind of time together. And
S2: if a family's life lifetime. Um, I hope that it.
S2: The six small steps are things that are regularly being
S2: tweaked in order to increase the consistency of a spiritual habit. Uh,
S2: and that when new season comes and a new spiritual
S2: habit is needed, that this can be a tool that
S2: someone could use to start onto a new journey of
S2: a new spiritual habit. I hope it's a tool that
S2: can be used over and over and over again.
S3: My hope, in addition to this being very practical, like
S3: Clayton was saying, my hope is that people will will
S3: really take to heart what we mentioned in the book
S3: about the disposition of God towards us, and that that
S3: will change how they approach their spiritual habits. Because I
S3: think a lot of us, If we imagine Jesus showing
S3: up in our living room and us handing him a
S3: report of how we've done with our spiritual habits, we
S3: expect him to kind of shake his head and say, man,
S3: I expected better. When, as I read the Gospels, what
S3: I see is Jesus who invites us in and says,
S3: are you weary? Are you tired? I've got a better
S3: life for you. Come to me. I want to spend
S3: time with you. And if we could, if people really
S3: do take to heart that God, even in our failures,
S3: wants to draw near to us and wants us to
S3: draw near to him, I think that would be revolutionary
S3: for the way that we approach our spiritual habits. It's
S3: it's I know that's been the case for me in Clayton,
S3: and I really am praying that that will be the
S3: case for all of our readers, too.
S5: Yeah, well, that would certainly be my prayer. I want
S5: to thank each of you, Chris and Clayton, for the
S5: time you invested in practicing this and then putting it
S5: in book form. And I want to also thank you
S5: for being with us today on building relationships, because I
S5: think our listeners will find this book to be extremely
S5: helpful as well. So thanks again for being with us today.
S3: Thank you Gary. It was a pleasure to be here.
S2: Thanks for having us.
S4: Once again, the title of our featured resource is Building
S4: Spiritual Habits in the Home small steps you can take today.
S4: Just go to Building Relationships to find out more. Again
S4: building relationships.
S5: And next week, simple ways to make your marriage better.
S1: Here quick practical insights for every marriage in one week.
S1: Our thanks to Janice backing and Steve Wick for their
S1: production work on today's program. Building relationships with Doctor Gary
S1: Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with
S1: Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.