1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 S1: Hi friends, this is Janet. Partial. Thanks so much for 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,160 S1: downloading this podcast and I hope you hear something that 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,560 S1: will really encourage and edify you. But before you start 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,399 S1: to listen, let me take a moment of your time 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,399 S1: and tell you about this month's truth tool. It's called 6 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,680 S1: secure How to have a Healthy Attachment to God. And 7 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,440 S1: it follows that very often, whatever our relationship is like 8 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,040 S1: with authority figures, predominantly our parents, we somehow transferred to 9 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,040 S1: how we see God. So if we have an angry parent, 10 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,319 S1: he's an angry God. If it's a distant parent, he's 11 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,520 S1: a God who's not there. I think it's important we 12 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,680 S1: understand who God really is. And in this wonderful book 13 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,760 S1: called secure, you're going to discover the character of God 14 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,080 S1: and how deeply in love God is with you. It's 15 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,839 S1: our truth tool. Our truth tools are my way of 16 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,680 S1: saying thank you because we are listener supported radio. So 17 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,600 S1: if you'd like a copy of secure, just call 877 58. 18 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,760 S1: That's eight 7758. Give a gift of any amount. My 19 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,840 S1: way of saying thank you for supporting the program is 20 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,000 S1: I'll send you a copy of secure. You can also 21 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,480 S1: do this online at In the Market with Janet Parshall. 22 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,560 S1: Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover 23 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,890 S1: of the book secure. Click on the photo. Go right 24 00:01:01,890 --> 00:01:03,930 S1: on through. Make your donation and we'll send you a 25 00:01:03,930 --> 00:01:06,730 S1: copy again of secure. If you want to consider becoming 26 00:01:06,730 --> 00:01:09,890 S1: a partial partner, that is the ever increasing circle of 27 00:01:09,890 --> 00:01:12,050 S1: friends who give every single month at a level of 28 00:01:12,090 --> 00:01:14,330 S1: their own choosing. And my way of saying thank you 29 00:01:14,330 --> 00:01:16,770 S1: is this you always get the truth tool for each 30 00:01:16,770 --> 00:01:18,890 S1: and every month. And in addition to that, you get 31 00:01:18,890 --> 00:01:21,850 S1: a weekly newsletter that includes some of my writing and 32 00:01:21,850 --> 00:01:24,410 S1: a little audio piece just for my partial partners. So 33 00:01:24,410 --> 00:01:27,369 S1: either way, thank you in advance for prayerfully considering the 34 00:01:27,370 --> 00:01:30,650 S1: opportunity to financially support in the market with Janet partial 35 00:01:30,650 --> 00:01:32,690 S1: and keeping it on the air now, I hope you 36 00:01:32,730 --> 00:01:34,850 S1: hear something that will encourage you to get out and 37 00:01:34,850 --> 00:01:43,929 S1: influence and occupy in the marketplace of ideas. Hi friends, 38 00:01:43,930 --> 00:01:45,970 S1: this is Janet partial and I want to welcome you 39 00:01:45,970 --> 00:01:48,610 S1: to the best of in the market. Today's program is 40 00:01:48,610 --> 00:01:51,010 S1: pre-recorded so our phone lines are not open. But I 41 00:01:51,010 --> 00:01:53,370 S1: do hope you'll enjoy today's edition of The Best of 42 00:01:53,410 --> 00:01:55,170 S1: In the Market with Janet Parshall. 43 00:01:55,570 --> 00:01:57,090 S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 44 00:01:57,490 --> 00:01:59,650 S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 45 00:01:59,890 --> 00:02:01,850 S4: Americans worshipping government over God. 46 00:02:01,970 --> 00:02:05,490 S5: Extremely rare safety move by MH 17 years. 47 00:02:05,490 --> 00:02:07,570 S6: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. 48 00:02:07,890 --> 00:02:10,050 S3: This is not over. 49 00:02:22,850 --> 00:02:25,570 S1: Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. 50 00:02:25,570 --> 00:02:28,410 S1: Thank you so much for spending the hour with me. 51 00:02:28,650 --> 00:02:30,490 S1: I just want to put a verse on the table 52 00:02:30,490 --> 00:02:32,450 S1: and ask us to think about it for one minute. 53 00:02:32,450 --> 00:02:36,890 S1: Romans five eight But God demonstrated his own love for 54 00:02:36,889 --> 00:02:40,010 S1: us in this. And then he points out exactly what 55 00:02:40,010 --> 00:02:44,810 S1: this is. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 56 00:02:44,810 --> 00:02:47,010 S1: Now let that sink in. In other words, we weren't 57 00:02:47,010 --> 00:02:50,530 S1: perfect people. We weren't lovable people. We weren't sinless people. 58 00:02:50,530 --> 00:02:55,250 S1: We were still sinners. And Christ. Then does this sacrificial 59 00:02:55,419 --> 00:02:58,820 S1: act on the cross at Calvary. He pays the penalty 60 00:02:58,860 --> 00:03:02,460 S1: for our sins. We were guilty as charged. We were 61 00:03:02,460 --> 00:03:04,820 S1: the ones who had the sign around their neck that 62 00:03:04,820 --> 00:03:08,420 S1: says guilty as charged penalty death than by man came death. 63 00:03:08,460 --> 00:03:11,660 S1: The Bible tells us, and yet God loves us so much. 64 00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:14,460 S1: God demonstrates his love toward us. Is the author of 65 00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:17,580 S1: Romans says. And that while we were still sinners, not perfect, 66 00:03:17,580 --> 00:03:20,540 S1: not excellent, not good. He died for us. You know, 67 00:03:20,540 --> 00:03:22,260 S1: when you think about it, that's pretty amazing. I mean, 68 00:03:22,260 --> 00:03:24,380 S1: let me just ask you to put on your spiritual 69 00:03:24,380 --> 00:03:27,299 S1: thinking cap for a minute. So would you die for 70 00:03:27,300 --> 00:03:30,940 S1: somebody who is guilty? I mean, would you step in 71 00:03:30,940 --> 00:03:33,500 S1: and do a sacrificial giving of your life? I mean, 72 00:03:33,500 --> 00:03:35,300 S1: I love this, by the way. That's why I love 73 00:03:35,340 --> 00:03:38,460 S1: great literature. It's called classics because it sticks around for 74 00:03:38,460 --> 00:03:42,020 S1: old times sake, because it speaks to transcendent themes. So take, 75 00:03:42,020 --> 00:03:44,300 S1: for example, the novel that can be identified in its 76 00:03:44,300 --> 00:03:46,620 S1: first sentence. It was the best of times. It was 77 00:03:46,620 --> 00:03:48,980 S1: the worst of times. You don't use a lifeline or 78 00:03:48,980 --> 00:03:50,620 S1: call a friend. Can you tell me who wrote it? 79 00:03:50,660 --> 00:03:53,060 S1: If you said Charles Dickens. Spot on. What's the story? 80 00:03:53,100 --> 00:03:56,100 S1: A Tale of Two Cities. And in this film, that's 81 00:03:56,100 --> 00:03:59,260 S1: a historical novel that's set between London and Paris. And 82 00:03:59,260 --> 00:04:01,780 S1: it all takes place during the French Revolution. You were 83 00:04:01,780 --> 00:04:06,220 S1: introduced to two characters, Charles Darnay and Sydney Carton. And 84 00:04:06,220 --> 00:04:08,180 S1: what's interesting, and I won't give it away because I 85 00:04:08,180 --> 00:04:10,740 S1: hope you will read the book. But in this story 86 00:04:11,020 --> 00:04:15,260 S1: you have themes of sacrifice and resurrection and social injustice, 87 00:04:15,260 --> 00:04:19,299 S1: and it all ends in this profoundly famous act of 88 00:04:19,300 --> 00:04:23,060 S1: self-sacrifice at the guillotine. Now we read that, and something 89 00:04:23,100 --> 00:04:24,900 S1: stirs in the human heart. It goes to, if I 90 00:04:24,900 --> 00:04:27,140 S1: can borrow from Lincoln, the better angels of our nature, 91 00:04:27,140 --> 00:04:30,140 S1: and we're drawn toward a story like that. And yet, 92 00:04:30,140 --> 00:04:35,380 S1: here's the ultimate story of self-sacrifice, of resurrection, of really 93 00:04:35,380 --> 00:04:39,700 S1: satisfying biblical justice. And that was Christ paying the penalty 94 00:04:39,700 --> 00:04:42,619 S1: for our sins. And it's pretty amazing. And yet it's 95 00:04:42,620 --> 00:04:44,780 S1: still a sticky wicket for some people. If I can 96 00:04:44,820 --> 00:04:47,100 S1: borrow from the Brits for a minute. Why? And I'll 97 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:50,140 S1: give you the 50 cent theological term for this. Why 98 00:04:50,140 --> 00:04:55,310 S1: is this whole idea of substitutionary atonement problematic. It says 99 00:04:55,310 --> 00:04:57,350 S1: it right there in Romans. Shouldn't that be enough? Well, 100 00:04:57,350 --> 00:04:58,870 S1: we're going to dig into this, and we're going to 101 00:04:58,870 --> 00:05:01,430 S1: talk more about things that God does with our sin, 102 00:05:01,430 --> 00:05:03,830 S1: and some things he will never do with our sin. 103 00:05:04,070 --> 00:05:05,830 S1: And if time allows, I want to dive into the 104 00:05:05,830 --> 00:05:07,870 S1: subject of hell as well, because I think that's all 105 00:05:07,870 --> 00:05:09,870 S1: a part of this conversation. Who do you think I'd 106 00:05:09,870 --> 00:05:12,710 S1: call on for this conversation? Oh, you definitely don't need 107 00:05:12,710 --> 00:05:15,310 S1: a lifeline or a friend. Doctor Sam Storms is going 108 00:05:15,350 --> 00:05:18,350 S1: to teach us because he is, quite frankly, a superb 109 00:05:18,390 --> 00:05:21,630 S1: Bible teacher. He spent more than four decades in ministry 110 00:05:21,630 --> 00:05:23,710 S1: as a pastor and a professor. He was a visiting 111 00:05:23,710 --> 00:05:27,750 S1: professor of theology at Wheaton College. He served as serves 112 00:05:27,790 --> 00:05:30,190 S1: now as a member of the Council of the Gospel Coalition, 113 00:05:30,190 --> 00:05:34,429 S1: past president of the Evangelical Theological Society, uh, he most 114 00:05:34,470 --> 00:05:38,150 S1: recently founded and now serves as executive director for Convergence 115 00:05:38,150 --> 00:05:41,470 S1: Church Network. He is an unbelievable author. He writes and 116 00:05:41,470 --> 00:05:45,110 S1: writes and writes and at his website, Sam storms I 117 00:05:45,150 --> 00:05:47,469 S1: spent a couple of days there this week. It is 118 00:05:47,470 --> 00:05:49,670 S1: like if I can borrow a, well, a comparison here 119 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,960 S1: Being in D.C., it's like the Library of Congress. Theologically, 120 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,799 S1: he's got so many different topics, all of them beautifully written, 121 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,279 S1: and I commend that website to you, which is why 122 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,440 S1: you're going to find it on my website. But it's 123 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,719 S1: real easy to remember it's just his name. Sam storms sandstorms.org. 124 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:06,880 S1: So roll up our sleeves. And this is going to 125 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,480 S1: be a conversation where you are reminded again that when 126 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,360 S1: we come to faith in Christ, our heart is transformed, 127 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,279 S1: but our mind is renewed. So we think differently now 128 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,200 S1: that we have faith in Christ. And we're going to 129 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,200 S1: think biblically and critically. And the maturing saint must necessarily 130 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,719 S1: be thinking critically, deeply, a higher idea of God and 131 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,520 S1: a deeper dive into His word. So, Sam, the warmest 132 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,640 S1: of welcomes. Thank you, thank you, thank you for just 133 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,800 S1: this panoply of titles and authors and books that you've 134 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,080 S1: given us. I just so appreciate it. So when you 135 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,279 S1: wrote an article, it's also in your book, A Dozen 136 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,200 S1: Things God Did With Your Sin. Um, you talk about 137 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,960 S1: number one being the fact that he becomes fully man, 138 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,760 S1: God incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ. That chasm 139 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,719 S1: of sin by man has been bridged by the cross 140 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,640 S1: of Calvary, and the ultimate sacrifice has been paid. The 141 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,640 S1: unblemished Lamb of God took away the sins of the world. 142 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,120 S1: So this wonderful theological term that nobody uses in everyday conversation, 143 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,800 S1: unless you're a seminarian, is substitutionary atonement. It is like 144 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,720 S1: square one in Christianity 101. How and when did this 145 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:09,400 S1: become a controversial topic? 146 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,720 S7: Well, Janet, it's good to be with you again today. 147 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,560 S7: And yeah, that's a question that is constantly on my mind. 148 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,200 S7: And the more and more I think about it, I 149 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,840 S7: think it may well be a reflection not from reading Scripture, 150 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,360 S7: not from some experience in church life, but I think 151 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,840 S7: the surrounding culture has affected the way that many people, 152 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,320 S7: even professing Christians, think. And we've got to this point 153 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,360 S7: where we think that the idea of divine wrath or 154 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:41,480 S7: justice is cruel and unusual, and that it is somehow 155 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,120 S7: not consistent with the God of love and grace and 156 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,130 S7: mercy that we read about in Scripture. and they think 157 00:07:47,130 --> 00:07:51,490 S7: that somehow that wrath or God's righteous response to sin 158 00:07:52,330 --> 00:07:55,410 S7: isn't necessary, that why can't he just, you know, as 159 00:07:55,410 --> 00:07:58,530 S7: I often say, wave the Wand of Mercy and sprinkle 160 00:07:58,530 --> 00:08:02,330 S7: pixie dust on us and cause all of our opposition 161 00:08:02,330 --> 00:08:05,730 S7: to him to disappear? What is it about the character 162 00:08:05,730 --> 00:08:09,010 S7: of God that requires that he hold us accountable for 163 00:08:09,010 --> 00:08:12,610 S7: our sin? And of course, the thing people say, well, 164 00:08:12,610 --> 00:08:14,770 S7: wait a minute. If he holds all of us accountable 165 00:08:14,770 --> 00:08:17,210 S7: for our sin, what hope do Christians have? Well, the 166 00:08:17,210 --> 00:08:19,730 S7: hope that we have is that he held Christ accountable 167 00:08:19,730 --> 00:08:23,450 S7: for our sins in our place. That's what substitution means 168 00:08:23,810 --> 00:08:27,770 S7: in our stead, in our place, acting as our representative, 169 00:08:28,210 --> 00:08:32,250 S7: the judgment and the wrath that we deserved. He endured voluntarily, 170 00:08:32,250 --> 00:08:36,929 S7: lovingly and willingly. So I think that is that's largely 171 00:08:36,929 --> 00:08:39,610 S7: the influences of culture to a certain extent. I think 172 00:08:39,610 --> 00:08:43,890 S7: people are just uncomfortable bringing up this subject around non-believers 173 00:08:43,890 --> 00:08:45,850 S7: because they're afraid they're going to get ridiculed. Like, what's 174 00:08:45,850 --> 00:08:47,930 S7: the matter? Isn't your God loving enough that he can 175 00:08:47,929 --> 00:08:50,929 S7: deal with your sin without, um, you know, having his 176 00:08:50,929 --> 00:08:53,410 S7: son crucified? So I think those are the kind of 177 00:08:53,450 --> 00:08:55,329 S7: the factors that play into this. 178 00:08:55,370 --> 00:08:57,170 S1: You set that up beautifully, and I'm glad we have 179 00:08:57,170 --> 00:08:58,730 S1: up to a break. Let me pick this up when 180 00:08:58,730 --> 00:09:00,890 S1: we come back. This is, in the words of my mom, 181 00:09:00,929 --> 00:09:04,010 S1: a delicious conversation. And by that, I mean it's one 182 00:09:04,010 --> 00:09:06,650 S1: that really makes us dig deep, not knowing just what 183 00:09:06,650 --> 00:09:10,449 S1: we believe, but why we believe it. So this idea 184 00:09:10,450 --> 00:09:13,290 S1: that there has been a cultural influence, not only on 185 00:09:13,290 --> 00:09:16,370 S1: this idea of substitutionary atonement, but even on the whole 186 00:09:16,370 --> 00:09:19,570 S1: concept of sin, because maybe we don't have a deep 187 00:09:19,570 --> 00:09:22,209 S1: enough perspective on what sin is. So, Sam, I think 188 00:09:22,210 --> 00:09:24,130 S1: that's a good place to pick up. When we come back. 189 00:09:24,370 --> 00:09:27,809 S1: Let's talk about sin. Are we getting soft on sin? 190 00:09:28,010 --> 00:09:30,689 S1: Are we trying to minimize it again, for this idea 191 00:09:30,690 --> 00:09:32,810 S1: that we have a God of our own creation who 192 00:09:32,809 --> 00:09:35,050 S1: really isn't all that bothered by sin? There's a lot 193 00:09:35,050 --> 00:09:37,490 S1: to examine there. Doctor Sam Storms is with us. Keep 194 00:09:37,490 --> 00:09:39,650 S1: that thinking, cap on. We're just getting started. A lot 195 00:09:39,650 --> 00:09:53,100 S1: more ground to cover right after this. Are you constantly 196 00:09:53,100 --> 00:09:55,300 S1: feeling like God is disappointed in you, or do you 197 00:09:55,300 --> 00:09:57,860 S1: feel like he's too busy for your problems? Well, that's 198 00:09:57,860 --> 00:10:00,620 S1: why I've chosen secure how to have a healthy attachment 199 00:10:00,620 --> 00:10:03,660 S1: to God as this month's truth tool. Learn to grasp 200 00:10:03,660 --> 00:10:06,020 S1: the depth of God's love for you. Ask for your 201 00:10:06,020 --> 00:10:07,940 S1: copy of secure. When you give a gift of any 202 00:10:07,940 --> 00:10:13,020 S1: amount in the market, call 877. 58. That's 877 58 203 00:10:13,020 --> 00:10:18,699 S1: or go to in the market with Janet. We're visiting 204 00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:21,260 S1: with Doctor Sam Storms who is the founder of Enjoying 205 00:10:21,260 --> 00:10:24,620 S1: God Ministries. And also he is now the man of 206 00:10:24,620 --> 00:10:26,580 S1: the man that founded. But he's serving as the executive 207 00:10:26,580 --> 00:10:30,740 S1: director for the Convergence Church Network. And the joy about 208 00:10:30,780 --> 00:10:33,860 S1: talking to Doctor Storms, as he's got so many wonderful 209 00:10:33,860 --> 00:10:37,020 S1: books and so many topics, I, I, I'm challenged and 210 00:10:37,020 --> 00:10:39,380 S1: excited every time we get an opportunity to be together 211 00:10:39,380 --> 00:10:42,069 S1: because we could spend hours just on one of his 212 00:10:42,070 --> 00:10:44,550 S1: books that he's written. And so I had to hop 213 00:10:44,550 --> 00:10:46,429 S1: and skip. And sometimes we'll open the phones, as you know, 214 00:10:46,429 --> 00:10:48,350 S1: because you love it. And I'll let you ask any 215 00:10:48,350 --> 00:10:50,790 S1: question you have of Doctor Storms on any question about 216 00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:53,630 S1: the Bible or Christianity. But sometimes, like today, I want 217 00:10:53,670 --> 00:10:55,510 S1: to hone in so we have a deeper dive into 218 00:10:55,550 --> 00:10:58,309 S1: God's Word to understand pretty much one of the rudimentary 219 00:10:58,309 --> 00:11:01,590 S1: aspects of biblical Christianity, which is this idea of sin. 220 00:11:01,870 --> 00:11:04,510 S1: And so among the many books that Doctor Storms has 221 00:11:04,510 --> 00:11:07,110 S1: authored is A Dozen Things God Did with Your Sin 222 00:11:07,110 --> 00:11:10,030 S1: and Three Things He'll Never Do. And the very first 223 00:11:10,030 --> 00:11:13,630 S1: thing that Doctor Storms points out is that he laid 224 00:11:13,630 --> 00:11:17,189 S1: your sin upon his son. And he points out what 225 00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:20,270 S1: it says in second Corinthians 521 for our sake he 226 00:11:20,270 --> 00:11:23,590 S1: made him Jesus to be sin who knew no sin, 227 00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:26,869 S1: so that in him Jesus we might become the righteousness 228 00:11:26,870 --> 00:11:29,590 S1: of God. So I loved what you just said, Sam, 229 00:11:29,630 --> 00:11:31,709 S1: because I think it's an astute observation, and I think 230 00:11:31,710 --> 00:11:34,390 S1: it's also a sad commentary on where we are not 231 00:11:34,390 --> 00:11:37,230 S1: just culturally, but in the church capital C, and that 232 00:11:37,230 --> 00:11:40,110 S1: is this idea of the concept of sin. I think 233 00:11:40,150 --> 00:11:42,110 S1: I'm wondering, I don't know, but I think these are 234 00:11:42,110 --> 00:11:46,390 S1: questions worth asking. If we have this idea we're timid 235 00:11:46,390 --> 00:11:50,429 S1: about sin because we don't understand it's offense to God. 236 00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:53,550 S1: So we quote this verse about our righteousness is as 237 00:11:53,550 --> 00:11:55,710 S1: filthy rags. And that's an interesting word study in and 238 00:11:55,710 --> 00:11:58,910 S1: of itself. But I'm wondering, in a post-modern sense, state 239 00:11:58,910 --> 00:12:01,750 S1: world where the lines of distinction between good and evil 240 00:12:01,790 --> 00:12:04,310 S1: are more blurred than they've ever been, at least in 241 00:12:04,309 --> 00:12:08,589 S1: my lifetime, that we don't understand the repugnant nature of 242 00:12:08,590 --> 00:12:10,709 S1: sin to a holy God. Talk to me about that. 243 00:12:10,750 --> 00:12:13,550 S7: Well, that's so true, Janet. Um, I do think that 244 00:12:13,550 --> 00:12:17,350 S7: we have been desensitized to sin. That the things that 245 00:12:17,350 --> 00:12:20,829 S7: used to make us blush, uh, now we take pride in. 246 00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:24,830 S7: We form parades to celebrate them. And I think the 247 00:12:24,830 --> 00:12:27,750 S7: only way that we can explain that it's. Well, it's 248 00:12:27,750 --> 00:12:29,430 S7: not the only way, the primary way I'll get to 249 00:12:29,429 --> 00:12:32,350 S7: in a moment. But for example, um, we have now 250 00:12:32,350 --> 00:12:35,309 S7: come to a place in our kind of postmodern culture. 251 00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:38,760 S7: Carl Trueman wrote an excellent book about this, uh, to 252 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:43,800 S7: the place where all so-called ethical decisions are little more 253 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,560 S7: than personal preferences. Mhm. Um, you don't like abortion? Don't 254 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,760 S7: have one. Uh, you don't like murder? Don't kill anybody. Uh, 255 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,079 S7: but really, the only way we can say anything is 256 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,000 S7: good or bad. What we really mean is I don't 257 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,839 S7: like it. I prefer its opposite. And so we've redefined 258 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,600 S7: the source of morality away from God and away from 259 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,120 S7: his transcendent rule and will. And we've placed it in 260 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,440 S7: the human heart. And it's basically whatever makes you feel good, 261 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,800 S7: whatever builds your self-esteem, whatever gives you a personal sense 262 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,439 S7: of identity, whatever gives you a feel for you're going 263 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,800 S7: to make a, you know, a significant mark in this 264 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,360 S7: world that becomes the deciding factor on what is good 265 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,200 S7: and evil. But I think more so than anything else, 266 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,520 S7: we really don't have a biblical concept of who God is. Um, 267 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:34,640 S7: I think one of the reasons for this, and I 268 00:13:34,730 --> 00:13:36,890 S7: think we've talked a little bit about this before, is 269 00:13:37,090 --> 00:13:40,610 S7: there are some professing Christians, and I emphasize the word 270 00:13:40,610 --> 00:13:44,130 S7: professing there who want to pit the God of the 271 00:13:44,130 --> 00:13:46,530 S7: Old Testament against the God of the New Testament. The 272 00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:49,290 S7: God of the Old Testament is a bully. He's mean, 273 00:13:49,330 --> 00:13:53,650 S7: he's hateful, he's arrogant, he demands blood, he kills people 274 00:13:53,650 --> 00:13:56,530 S7: that don't like him, blah blah blah. God, the New Testament, oh, 275 00:13:56,570 --> 00:14:01,170 S7: he's loving and kind and freely forgives. And it would 276 00:14:01,170 --> 00:14:02,690 S7: never do any of the things that the God of 277 00:14:02,690 --> 00:14:06,810 S7: the Old Testament did. And this this division between the two. 278 00:14:06,850 --> 00:14:09,530 S7: It's really the kind of the resurrection of an old 279 00:14:09,530 --> 00:14:12,890 S7: heresy called Marcionism. Uh, Marcion was a man in the 280 00:14:12,890 --> 00:14:17,250 S7: second century who basically said, uh, we can't we can't 281 00:14:17,250 --> 00:14:20,210 S7: believe the Old Testament. We can only believe the the 282 00:14:20,210 --> 00:14:22,850 S7: Jesus of the New Testament. Even then, he wouldn't accept 283 00:14:22,850 --> 00:14:25,370 S7: everything in the New Testament. Anything that talked about wrath 284 00:14:25,530 --> 00:14:28,890 S7: or anger or sin he would kind of dismiss. So 285 00:14:28,890 --> 00:14:32,170 S7: I do think it all gets back to this misconception 286 00:14:32,170 --> 00:14:35,370 S7: of who God is. You know, you open with Romans five. 287 00:14:35,410 --> 00:14:39,170 S7: I want to continue reading where you left off. You 288 00:14:39,170 --> 00:14:40,970 S7: know where he says, God shows his love for us 289 00:14:41,010 --> 00:14:44,130 S7: in that while we still sinners, Christ died for us. 290 00:14:44,530 --> 00:14:46,570 S7: And then he says, since therefore we have now been 291 00:14:46,570 --> 00:14:49,690 S7: justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved 292 00:14:49,690 --> 00:14:53,850 S7: by him from the wrath of God. So it's that's 293 00:14:53,850 --> 00:14:57,370 S7: our greatest threat is the justice and wrath of God. Um, 294 00:14:57,850 --> 00:15:02,170 S7: God is not this this kind of being who can, uh, 295 00:15:02,210 --> 00:15:06,450 S7: kind of divest himself of his essential character and say, well, 296 00:15:06,850 --> 00:15:09,010 S7: you know, I kind of got up this morning. I 297 00:15:09,010 --> 00:15:12,450 S7: was a little bit cranky, so I'll be wrathful. And tomorrow. No, 298 00:15:12,490 --> 00:15:16,410 S7: I'm feeling compassionate and kind today, so I'll be forgiving. Uh, 299 00:15:16,850 --> 00:15:19,290 S7: we can't mess with God's character. He's told us what 300 00:15:19,290 --> 00:15:22,090 S7: he is like, and we must acknowledge it. And then 301 00:15:22,090 --> 00:15:23,570 S7: one more thing I want to point out about that 302 00:15:23,570 --> 00:15:27,090 S7: passage you read. Uh, he doesn't just say this. He 303 00:15:27,130 --> 00:15:29,770 S7: dialed first while we were still sinners. But then he 304 00:15:29,770 --> 00:15:33,220 S7: says in verse ten, for while we are enemies, he 305 00:15:33,220 --> 00:15:36,180 S7: reconciled us to God. So we're not just sinful, we're 306 00:15:36,180 --> 00:15:39,740 S7: not just ungodly. We are at enmity with God. We 307 00:15:39,780 --> 00:15:43,660 S7: simply don't like him. We don't like his will and ways. 308 00:15:43,700 --> 00:15:47,260 S7: I'm I'm preaching in Ephesians four, um, very soon at 309 00:15:47,260 --> 00:15:49,580 S7: our church here in Oklahoma City. And I was working 310 00:15:49,580 --> 00:15:53,540 S7: today with, um, Ephesians four. It's the most graphic portrayal 311 00:15:53,540 --> 00:15:56,500 S7: of human sin I've ever seen in in the Bible. 312 00:15:56,780 --> 00:16:00,900 S7: And he talks about the unbelieving mind is futile. It's darkened. 313 00:16:00,940 --> 00:16:03,740 S7: They're alienated from God because of the ignorance that are 314 00:16:03,740 --> 00:16:08,860 S7: in them due to their hardness of heart. That's the issue. 315 00:16:09,260 --> 00:16:12,940 S7: People's hearts have become hardened. They are insensitive to the 316 00:16:12,940 --> 00:16:15,660 S7: revelation of God. They don't want him in their lives 317 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:18,820 S7: because the minute they acknowledge that he exists, they suddenly 318 00:16:18,820 --> 00:16:21,260 S7: become accountable to him. And that means they have to 319 00:16:21,260 --> 00:16:24,220 S7: put their lifestyle and their decisions, you know, on the 320 00:16:24,220 --> 00:16:26,540 S7: table and say, all right, Lord, which of these do 321 00:16:26,540 --> 00:16:29,500 S7: you approve of and which do you disapprove of? and 322 00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:33,700 S7: then adjust our lifestyle accordingly. People don't like that. People 323 00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:37,340 S7: like their sin more than they like God. It just comes. 324 00:16:37,380 --> 00:16:40,380 S7: I know that sounds simplistic, but that's basically what it is. 325 00:16:40,420 --> 00:16:42,420 S1: And isn't it interesting? What a paradox because you talk 326 00:16:42,460 --> 00:16:44,860 S1: about the hardness of the heart and yet the softness 327 00:16:44,860 --> 00:16:47,700 S1: of our approach towards sin. That's a paradox, not to 328 00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:50,500 S1: be ignored, I think. And it's problematic. So I love 329 00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:53,820 S1: what you said about recognizing that we're enemies of God. 330 00:16:53,820 --> 00:16:55,820 S1: I want to pick it up exactly at that point. 331 00:16:55,900 --> 00:16:58,660 S1: So if this were a bicycle wheel, the center of 332 00:16:58,660 --> 00:17:00,460 S1: this wheel is the character of God and the nature 333 00:17:00,460 --> 00:17:02,220 S1: of sin. And all the questions I'm asking sort of 334 00:17:02,260 --> 00:17:04,300 S1: are spokes that come out from that. So I want 335 00:17:04,340 --> 00:17:06,540 S1: to talk about this idea of the God of the 336 00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:09,260 S1: Old Testament versus the Jesus we read about in the 337 00:17:09,260 --> 00:17:12,219 S1: New Testament, because, you know, as there are people advocating 338 00:17:12,260 --> 00:17:15,020 S1: the disconnection and as you say, this is a heresy 339 00:17:15,020 --> 00:17:17,380 S1: that goes back to the second century. You can't do it. 340 00:17:17,380 --> 00:17:20,340 S1: Jesus shows up in Genesis and he's there through every 341 00:17:20,340 --> 00:17:23,020 S1: single book of the Bible, all 66 of them, until 342 00:17:23,020 --> 00:17:25,100 S1: we get to revelation. So let me ask about the 343 00:17:25,100 --> 00:17:28,270 S1: incarnation based on what you just said, doctor Sam Storms 344 00:17:28,270 --> 00:17:31,150 S1: is with us. We're talking about what Jesus did for 345 00:17:31,150 --> 00:17:35,149 S1: us to satisfy the wrath of God. Back after this. 346 00:17:41,790 --> 00:17:46,750 S1: It's always a privilege to spend time with Doctor Sam Storms. Author, teacher, pastor, writer. 347 00:17:46,750 --> 00:17:51,030 S1: Just excellent material. So our conversation really emanates out of 348 00:17:51,030 --> 00:17:53,669 S1: multiple articles that Doctor Storms has written, as well as 349 00:17:53,670 --> 00:17:55,630 S1: a book he wrote, called A Dozen Things God Did 350 00:17:55,630 --> 00:17:58,229 S1: With Your Sin and Three Things He'll Never Do. And 351 00:17:58,270 --> 00:18:01,270 S1: of course, point number one, and I don't think we've 352 00:18:01,270 --> 00:18:03,310 S1: ever gotten to the other 11. We've stayed on this 353 00:18:03,310 --> 00:18:05,630 S1: one for so long, but I think it's worth talking about. 354 00:18:05,630 --> 00:18:09,270 S1: You point out he laid our sins upon his son, 355 00:18:09,270 --> 00:18:13,750 S1: substitutionary atonement. In other words, Jesus steps in for us. 356 00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:16,389 S1: We are the ones that should be paying the price, 357 00:18:16,550 --> 00:18:20,350 S1: but he is the substitution. He becomes that that, uh, 358 00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:22,670 S1: unblemished Lamb of God. As I said earlier, who takes 359 00:18:22,670 --> 00:18:24,950 S1: away the sins of the world? The atonement is the price. 360 00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:26,880 S1: The price that has to be paid. The wages of 361 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,360 S1: sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life. 362 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,600 S1: So Jesus steps in and he takes care of that 363 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,880 S1: chasm between God and man, that sin. We are separated 364 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,840 S1: from God in our sins, but because of what Christ did, 365 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,600 S1: the completed work of Calvary, we're able to have that 366 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:45,240 S1: personal relationship with him, with the son, to the father. 367 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,680 S1: So I was thinking about what you were saying before, 368 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,440 S1: about the incarnation and not understanding the character of God. 369 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,159 S1: So as I said earlier, and it's indisputable in studying 370 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,600 S1: the word that from Genesis to Revelation there is Jesus 371 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,480 S1: all the way through, from beginning to end. So you, 372 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,119 S1: you just logically cannot disconnect, especially when Jesus quotes the 373 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,600 S1: Old Testament all the time when he becomes the fulfillment 374 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,280 S1: of the law, the hearkening back constantly. The one is 375 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:08,879 S1: a hand in a glove to the other. You cannot 376 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,600 S1: separate them. But it does raise an interesting question. So 377 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,440 S1: if God chooses to become man to come among us, 378 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,400 S1: and we read who he is, that he knows us, 379 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,640 S1: he's acquainted with all of our sorrows. By his stripes 380 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,760 S1: we are healed. He knows every temptation that we're dealing 381 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,680 S1: with in our lives. Why in some of those characteristics 382 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,160 S1: that others might point to and say that's a negative, 383 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,600 S1: uncomfortable for me, characteristic of God, his wrath, his judgment, 384 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,040 S1: his destruction. Why do we not then see that manifested 385 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,280 S1: in the person of Jesus in the New Testament? I mean, 386 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,440 S1: about as bad as it gets for some people is 387 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,360 S1: when he flips the tables. Although you can go through 388 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,000 S1: Scripture and read a lot of things he says to 389 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:47,720 S1: people that will knock them off their feet if you're 390 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,800 S1: paying attention. But we don't see that same kind of 391 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,520 S1: wrath that people subscribe to. This big spirit in the 392 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,600 S1: sky with a fluffy beard that plays whack a mole 393 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,520 S1: with human beings. So tell me why. 394 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,720 S7: I'm sorry. I love the way you put that, Janet. Oh, wow. Uh, 395 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,359 S7: the fact of the matter is, Jesus speaks as much 396 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,399 S7: of God's anger at sin, judgment, and even the doctrine 397 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,520 S7: of hell more so than Paul, Peter and Luke and John. 398 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,879 S7: He is constantly talking about the reality of of sin. Um, 399 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:22,530 S7: you know, he says this is the reason why the 400 00:20:22,530 --> 00:20:25,129 S7: Son of Man appeared, that he might take, that he 401 00:20:25,130 --> 00:20:29,690 S7: might suffer in our place. So again, to give his 402 00:20:29,690 --> 00:20:33,930 S7: life a ransom for many, he says. So the fact is, 403 00:20:33,930 --> 00:20:36,610 S7: when you read the New Testament, the idea that somehow 404 00:20:36,609 --> 00:20:39,730 S7: it's inconsistent with the old, that it gives us a 405 00:20:39,730 --> 00:20:42,930 S7: different portrayal of God, know the Old Testament is full 406 00:20:42,930 --> 00:20:46,090 S7: of God's grace. I mean, people never stop to ask 407 00:20:46,090 --> 00:20:51,170 S7: the question what? When God required the sacrificial sacrificial system 408 00:20:51,170 --> 00:20:54,410 S7: and the blood of the lamb being shed? What was that? 409 00:20:54,450 --> 00:20:57,330 S7: Was that an expression of his wrath or his grace 410 00:20:57,330 --> 00:21:01,130 S7: and love? The answer is yes, of course it is both. 411 00:21:01,450 --> 00:21:03,409 S7: And then when we read in the New Testament, especially 412 00:21:03,410 --> 00:21:07,609 S7: the Book of Revelation, my goodness, it's everywhere there. Um, 413 00:21:08,250 --> 00:21:11,170 S7: the judgment that has finally been poured out on a 414 00:21:11,170 --> 00:21:16,810 S7: on a recalcitrant and unbelieving and idolatrous people. Uh, and again, 415 00:21:16,810 --> 00:21:19,290 S7: I was like I said, I was working in Ephesians 416 00:21:19,290 --> 00:21:22,450 S7: four earlier today. And I came to chapter five where 417 00:21:22,450 --> 00:21:27,210 S7: Paul's talking about, you know, uh, avoiding this kind of lifestyle, 418 00:21:27,210 --> 00:21:31,530 S7: these sins that, that entangle us. And he says, he says, 419 00:21:31,570 --> 00:21:35,409 S7: let no one deceive you with empty words. For because 420 00:21:35,410 --> 00:21:38,730 S7: of these things, the wrath of God comes upon the 421 00:21:38,730 --> 00:21:44,369 S7: sons of disobedience. Wow, there it is. Don't be deceived. 422 00:21:44,369 --> 00:21:47,850 S7: Paul's saying, because of these sins, the wrath of God comes. 423 00:21:47,850 --> 00:21:50,609 S7: But of course, the great news is, as we are 424 00:21:50,609 --> 00:21:54,050 S7: told elsewhere in Ephesians and elsewhere in first Peter, it 425 00:21:54,050 --> 00:21:57,810 S7: is because Jesus endured and suffered that wrath in our stead. 426 00:21:57,810 --> 00:22:01,290 S7: And then that glorious word that people often mispronounce the 427 00:22:01,290 --> 00:22:06,250 S7: propitiation for our sins. He satisfied the demands of righteous 428 00:22:06,570 --> 00:22:10,250 S7: demands of God's righteous and judicial character. Uh, if people 429 00:22:10,250 --> 00:22:13,330 S7: want to know what substitutionary atonement is, if they just want, 430 00:22:13,369 --> 00:22:15,649 S7: you know, a one verse that can kind of just 431 00:22:15,650 --> 00:22:18,580 S7: summarize it for them, I would always send them to 432 00:22:18,619 --> 00:22:24,420 S7: first Peter 318 that's where Peter said, for the. For 433 00:22:24,420 --> 00:22:29,060 S7: the righteous suffered once for all the just for the unjust. 434 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:33,060 S7: It was, he said, it was concerning sin. He suffered 435 00:22:33,180 --> 00:22:37,020 S7: for the unjust that we might be brought to God. 436 00:22:37,020 --> 00:22:40,620 S7: We can't come to God unless our hatred of him, 437 00:22:40,660 --> 00:22:44,820 S7: our rebellion against him, or disdain for him. Our idolatrous 438 00:22:44,820 --> 00:22:47,500 S7: fascination with something else that we think is more worthy. 439 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:50,380 S7: Unless that is dealt with, we cannot come to God. 440 00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:54,540 S7: And Peter is saying, here's how it happens. Jesus suffered 441 00:22:54,540 --> 00:22:58,820 S7: once for the unjust. He took their place. He endured 442 00:22:58,820 --> 00:23:02,700 S7: their sin. That's what substitutionary atonement is all about. And 443 00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:04,300 S7: it's everywhere in the New Testament. 444 00:23:04,340 --> 00:23:05,100 S8: Yeah. Wow. 445 00:23:05,780 --> 00:23:08,820 S1: Does it help us to understand the nature of a 446 00:23:08,820 --> 00:23:13,060 S1: holy God when even on the cross, His son cries out, father, father, 447 00:23:13,060 --> 00:23:14,780 S1: why have you forsaken me? Now this is one of 448 00:23:14,780 --> 00:23:17,989 S1: those metaphysical things where you just have to take it 449 00:23:17,990 --> 00:23:20,590 S1: and understand that you've got a miniature mortal's mind, and 450 00:23:20,590 --> 00:23:22,550 S1: you can't possibly take in all of the knowledge of 451 00:23:22,550 --> 00:23:25,950 S1: the supernatural. But there's this moment, this schism between God 452 00:23:25,950 --> 00:23:28,750 S1: the Father and Jesus the Son, where there's a separation 453 00:23:29,150 --> 00:23:33,870 S1: that gives me an insight into the, the, the degradation 454 00:23:33,869 --> 00:23:36,270 S1: of sin versus the holiness of God. Talk to me 455 00:23:36,270 --> 00:23:36,950 S1: about that. 456 00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:41,469 S7: Yeah. In fact, I was just preaching on Sunday at 457 00:23:41,470 --> 00:23:45,389 S7: a church in South Carolina, and I referred to that statement. 458 00:23:45,390 --> 00:23:48,109 S7: I believe it's in Hebrews 13 where where the author 459 00:23:48,109 --> 00:23:51,429 S7: says he will never leave you nor forsake you. And 460 00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:53,990 S7: I said, people, do you know why that's true? It's 461 00:23:53,990 --> 00:23:57,350 S7: because he left and forsook his son. Jesus endured the 462 00:23:57,390 --> 00:24:01,070 S7: God forsakenness that we should have suffered while he was 463 00:24:01,070 --> 00:24:01,950 S7: on the cross. 464 00:24:02,350 --> 00:24:02,750 S6: Wow. 465 00:24:02,990 --> 00:24:05,670 S1: Wow. That puts that into a whole new perspective. This 466 00:24:05,670 --> 00:24:07,990 S1: hour is going far too quickly. But then, doesn't that 467 00:24:07,990 --> 00:24:10,869 S1: always happen with Doctor Sam Storms? So let me if 468 00:24:10,869 --> 00:24:13,270 S1: I can. And like I said, there are 11 other 469 00:24:13,270 --> 00:24:15,590 S1: things we can talk about what God does with our sin. 470 00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:17,830 S1: But I think this first one, if you don't get this, 471 00:24:17,830 --> 00:24:19,870 S1: the other things, you're just. Well, first of all, it's 472 00:24:19,869 --> 00:24:22,429 S1: basic Christianity. You need to understand this. But out of 473 00:24:22,430 --> 00:24:25,669 S1: this conversation does emanate the idea of God's wrath. And 474 00:24:25,670 --> 00:24:29,310 S1: it opens the door to conversation about hell. Let's talk 475 00:24:29,310 --> 00:24:43,229 S1: about that when we get back. Anyone can read the 476 00:24:43,230 --> 00:24:45,189 S1: news every day, and in the market, we're committed to 477 00:24:45,230 --> 00:24:47,510 S1: telling the news as seen through the lens of Scripture. 478 00:24:47,710 --> 00:24:49,989 S1: As Christians, we must be informed about what's going on 479 00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:52,710 S1: in the world and respond appropriately. When you become a 480 00:24:52,710 --> 00:24:55,430 S1: partial partner, you ensure that we continue here on your station, 481 00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:57,949 S1: equipping the church to discuss current events, using the Bible 482 00:24:57,950 --> 00:25:01,270 S1: as our solid foundation. Why not become a partial partner today? 483 00:25:01,270 --> 00:25:04,990 S1: Call 87758. Or go online to in the market with 484 00:25:04,990 --> 00:25:10,109 S1: Janet Parshall. We are spending the time and it's always 485 00:25:10,109 --> 00:25:13,719 S1: rich time with Doctor Sam Storms. He has spent decades 486 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,200 S1: in ministry as a pastor and a professor. He was 487 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,600 S1: a visiting associate prof of theology at Wheaton College. He 488 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,240 S1: serves as a member of the Council of the Gospel Coalition, 489 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,080 S1: is the past president of the Evangelical Theological Society, and 490 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,600 S1: he has now founded and serves as the Executive Director 491 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,520 S1: for Convergence Church Network. Wonderful author. Tons of books. I've 492 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,520 S1: got his website linked on mine. You can remember it. 493 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,240 S1: It's just his name, Sam Storms. Sam storms.org. But our 494 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,439 S1: conversation is emanating out of one of his many books. 495 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,400 S1: This is an outstanding one because he knows that so 496 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,280 S1: many people struggle with their guilt and their sin, and 497 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,080 S1: they think that somehow that God's going to give you 498 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,280 S1: an eternal time out or you're going to have to 499 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,800 S1: go to your room or that's it. I've forgiven you 500 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,959 S1: enough times for that problem. You can't get over it. 501 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,360 S1: I'm over you. And that's why we need to go 502 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,040 S1: back to the basics. When all else fails, read the instructions. 503 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,840 S1: They're found in the word of God. So he wrote 504 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,080 S1: a fabulous book called A Dozen Things God Did with 505 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,920 S1: Your Sin and Three Things He'll Never Do, and point one, 506 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,360 S1: which was the beginning of this conversation, but from which 507 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,639 S1: emanate a whole lot of other very important theological ideas. 508 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,360 S1: Is this idea of substitutionary atonement that God pays the 509 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,280 S1: price for sin through his Son, Jesus, who becomes the 510 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,920 S1: substitutionary atonement for our sins? We're the ones who should 511 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,640 S1: have paid the price, and there was a price that 512 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,200 S1: had to be paid. Jesus pays it, pays it for us. 513 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,000 S1: It's stunning. It's overwhelming. It's John 316 in a nutshell. 514 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,080 S1: God so loved the world that he gave his only son, 515 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,560 S1: that whoever believes in him will not perish but have 516 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,320 S1: everlasting life. So you made a very astute observation earlier, Sam, 517 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,600 S1: that we've got this kind of squishy attitude toward who 518 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,040 S1: God is and an even squishier attitude towards sin. And 519 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,239 S1: out of that emanates this idea of substitutionary atonement. Ooh, 520 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,119 S1: that's icky. I don't like it. I don't want to 521 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,960 S1: deal with the wrath of God. Where when that song 522 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,280 S1: came out in Christ alone, there was one denomination who 523 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,440 S1: stripped it from its hymnal because they said, no, no, 524 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,879 S1: we don't want to sing about the wrath of God. Well, 525 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,120 S1: that's up to you. But you can't deny that's part 526 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,770 S1: of God's nature that his wrath had to be satisfied. 527 00:27:10,930 --> 00:27:13,130 S1: So it begs the question, and I think it follows 528 00:27:13,130 --> 00:27:15,370 S1: logically here, that if you get a squishy idea of 529 00:27:15,369 --> 00:27:17,850 S1: sin and you get a squishy idea of God, and 530 00:27:17,850 --> 00:27:20,450 S1: you're letting the world teach you theology, that now we 531 00:27:20,450 --> 00:27:23,810 S1: get squishy ideas about hell, and you've written and you've 532 00:27:23,850 --> 00:27:25,970 S1: talked about this, and in one of your articles you 533 00:27:25,970 --> 00:27:27,810 S1: said right up front, you don't like to preach on 534 00:27:27,810 --> 00:27:31,690 S1: this text, and you were referring to revelation 14 six 535 00:27:31,730 --> 00:27:33,970 S1: through 13, and you said it's not because you don't 536 00:27:33,970 --> 00:27:37,090 S1: believe it, but because far more poignantly, you do believe 537 00:27:37,090 --> 00:27:39,530 S1: it because there is a place called hell and that 538 00:27:39,530 --> 00:27:42,850 S1: people are going there. Again, we've drifted on this. If 539 00:27:42,850 --> 00:27:45,409 S1: we don't have our anchor firmly planted, we start to 540 00:27:45,450 --> 00:27:47,370 S1: drift and all of a sudden now we've got drifting 541 00:27:47,369 --> 00:27:50,610 S1: ideas about hell like universalism, which in a nutshell says 542 00:27:50,850 --> 00:27:52,889 S1: it's a good God. Everybody ends up in heaven anyway. 543 00:27:52,890 --> 00:27:57,210 S1: Or annihilation, which means there is no eternal conscience, painful 544 00:27:57,210 --> 00:28:00,330 S1: separation from God. You are annihilated. Wiped out. That's the 545 00:28:00,330 --> 00:28:03,810 S1: end of the discussion. Interesting conversation. But when all else fails, 546 00:28:03,810 --> 00:28:05,929 S1: I want the plumb line. Thank you, book of Amos 547 00:28:05,930 --> 00:28:07,980 S1: and D.L. Moody for referring to the Word of God 548 00:28:07,980 --> 00:28:10,020 S1: as such. I want the plumb line of the Word 549 00:28:10,020 --> 00:28:11,980 S1: of God. What does the Bible tell us about hell? 550 00:28:13,859 --> 00:28:17,380 S7: Wow. I don't know that I need to say any more. Janet, 551 00:28:17,380 --> 00:28:22,139 S7: you have summed it up well. Um, yeah, it reminds me, 552 00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:23,740 S7: I don't I don't think I share this story in 553 00:28:23,740 --> 00:28:25,580 S7: my book, but I had a friend who was in 554 00:28:25,580 --> 00:28:28,220 S7: real estate and also in ministry part time in Dallas, 555 00:28:28,740 --> 00:28:31,180 S7: and he it was a day in Dallas in August. 556 00:28:31,180 --> 00:28:35,140 S7: It was probably on 100, 105 outside and pretty hot inside. 557 00:28:35,580 --> 00:28:38,020 S7: And he was on the elevator going up to his office, 558 00:28:38,020 --> 00:28:40,180 S7: and two men ran in and got in the elevator, 559 00:28:40,180 --> 00:28:43,340 S7: and they were obviously sweating. They'd been outside jogging and 560 00:28:43,340 --> 00:28:45,820 S7: one man said, man, it is as hot as hell 561 00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:50,660 S7: out there. And my friend immediately said, no, sir, it's not. 562 00:28:51,660 --> 00:28:54,900 S7: You can well imagine these guys kind of froze in 563 00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:58,620 S7: their position. They, uh. What do you mean by that? 564 00:28:58,620 --> 00:29:01,820 S7: And opened the door to him sharing the gospel. Um, so, yeah, 565 00:29:01,860 --> 00:29:05,180 S7: hell is a reality. Um, this is not something, you know, 566 00:29:05,180 --> 00:29:07,500 S7: that people say, well, why can't God just put delete 567 00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:10,340 S7: in his character and just wrath and justice are there, 568 00:29:10,340 --> 00:29:13,500 S7: but just push delete? I mean, we do that all 569 00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:16,100 S7: the time, don't we? We make up our minds to 570 00:29:16,140 --> 00:29:19,100 S7: push delete on things that have been done to us. 571 00:29:19,100 --> 00:29:23,100 S7: Sins been committed against us, you know, somebody breaking a confidence, 572 00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:26,660 S7: somebody gossiping or slandering us. And we push delete. Why 573 00:29:26,660 --> 00:29:30,100 S7: can't God? And the answer is because we're not God. 574 00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:33,700 S7: We're not holy. We're not infinitely righteous and pure, and 575 00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:36,380 S7: we don't have a feature or characteristic in our souls. 576 00:29:36,380 --> 00:29:40,700 S7: That's called retributive justice. God does. And he couldn't deny 577 00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:45,420 S7: himself by simply pushing delete. His righteous character demands that 578 00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:51,979 S7: it be satisfied. But with God's righteous character comes God's unbelievable, um, 579 00:29:53,180 --> 00:29:57,820 S7: unimpeachable love and grace, where he says, I cannot dismiss 580 00:29:57,820 --> 00:30:00,180 S7: this out of hand. I can't just say, hey, let 581 00:30:00,180 --> 00:30:02,900 S7: bygones be bygones. But here's what I'm going to do 582 00:30:02,990 --> 00:30:05,350 S7: for you. I'm going to send my only son, and 583 00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:09,670 S7: he's willingly, lovingly, happily coming. He is giving his life freely. 584 00:30:09,670 --> 00:30:12,469 S7: Nobody's forcing it from him. This is not, you know, 585 00:30:12,510 --> 00:30:15,790 S7: cosmic child abuse, as some people say. But he wanted 586 00:30:15,790 --> 00:30:18,950 S7: to do this. He says in John ten, nobody takes 587 00:30:18,950 --> 00:30:20,710 S7: my life from me. I offer it up on my 588 00:30:20,710 --> 00:30:24,590 S7: own authority. And God the Father says, that's what my 589 00:30:24,590 --> 00:30:27,630 S7: son has decided to do. This is a joint expression 590 00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:31,670 S7: of both wrath and love and grace. So that's what 591 00:30:31,670 --> 00:30:34,910 S7: we need to get our minds around. So yeah, the 592 00:30:35,710 --> 00:30:38,470 S7: let's be honest, and I don't want anybody to draw 593 00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:40,870 S7: the wrong conclusion from the few comments we'll make in 594 00:30:40,870 --> 00:30:47,670 S7: our time left in talking about hell. This is a sobering, sad, 595 00:30:47,710 --> 00:30:50,710 S7: sad thing to think about, that there are people that 596 00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:53,710 S7: we know and love that will be in hell for eternity. 597 00:30:54,430 --> 00:30:59,990 S7: That thought has been is so repugnant to some, so 598 00:30:59,990 --> 00:31:03,790 S7: violates their sense of moral conscience that they have come 599 00:31:03,790 --> 00:31:07,190 S7: up with this idea of annihilationism. Now, let's be clear 600 00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:11,110 S7: about what that is and isn't. Most annihilationist would say 601 00:31:11,470 --> 00:31:14,190 S7: that everybody who is an unbeliever in Jesus, those who 602 00:31:14,190 --> 00:31:16,950 S7: have rejected the gospel, will suffer the judgment and the 603 00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:19,510 S7: punishment of God. It will be in proportion to the 604 00:31:19,510 --> 00:31:22,150 S7: revelation they've had and the nature and the degree of 605 00:31:22,150 --> 00:31:26,190 S7: their sin. But after they have suffered that in proportion 606 00:31:26,190 --> 00:31:29,070 S7: to what they've done, they will simply cease to exist, 607 00:31:29,070 --> 00:31:34,030 S7: they will be annihilated. Their souls will simply no longer be. 608 00:31:35,910 --> 00:31:39,190 S7: Excuse me. So they don't they don't deny that hell exists. 609 00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:44,190 S7: They just simply say it's temporary. And it's the kind 610 00:31:44,190 --> 00:31:47,350 S7: of resolves in their own hearts. This idea of, well, yes, 611 00:31:47,350 --> 00:31:50,270 S7: God is just. But he's also gracious. That's why this 612 00:31:50,270 --> 00:31:53,310 S7: is something that won't last forever. My response? You know, 613 00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:55,630 S7: there's so many things to respond to that. First of all, 614 00:31:56,030 --> 00:31:58,190 S7: it's a question of what does the Bible say? And 615 00:31:58,190 --> 00:32:00,840 S7: if people think we're just bluffing, Janet, they should open 616 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,800 S7: their Bibles to Revelation 14. You mentioned a moment ago, 617 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:10,280 S7: verses nine through 11, revelation 14 nine through 11. I wrote, 618 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,840 S7: I took a course in the Greek exegesis of revelation 619 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,760 S7: when I was in seminary, and we each had to 620 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,400 S7: pick a paragraph to write our term paper on. That's 621 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,600 S7: the one I wrote on an entire term paper. It 622 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,239 S7: is so graphic, so unescapable. Um, it's I didn't take 623 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,080 S7: any delight in writing it, other than it was not 624 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,840 S7: a joyful thing to think about. But here's the point 625 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:36,200 S7: I want people to think about. Eternal conscious punishment makes 626 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,720 S7: more sense when we think about eternal conscious sinning. So 627 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,400 S7: we have this idea, mistaken idea that when people enter 628 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,640 S7: into hell separation from God, they immediately cease sinning, that 629 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,680 S7: maybe their natures are transformed and they're constantly crying out 630 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,720 S7: to God for release and forgiveness. That's not the portrayal 631 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,210 S7: we have in the Bible. I think that we can. 632 00:32:58,210 --> 00:33:01,290 S7: And again, there's no one text that explicitly says this, 633 00:33:01,490 --> 00:33:03,650 S7: but you kind of surmise it from a variety of 634 00:33:03,650 --> 00:33:09,450 S7: statements that if anything, sin becomes more prevalent, their hearts 635 00:33:09,450 --> 00:33:13,170 S7: become even harder. They are so defiant, and they hate 636 00:33:13,170 --> 00:33:17,570 S7: God so deeply that they never cease to sin. And 637 00:33:17,570 --> 00:33:21,050 S7: that's why they never cease to be punished. So that's 638 00:33:21,050 --> 00:33:25,690 S7: one thing that has helped me considerably. Jonathan Edwards taught this. D.A. 639 00:33:25,690 --> 00:33:28,530 S7: Carson talked about it in his book, The Gagging of God. 640 00:33:28,930 --> 00:33:31,610 S7: So there are a lot of responses to the Annihilation's 641 00:33:31,610 --> 00:33:36,530 S7: position now. Honestly, it has appealed to it. I mean, 642 00:33:37,290 --> 00:33:40,450 S7: I remember John Stott before he passed away, he abandoned 643 00:33:40,450 --> 00:33:44,410 S7: eternal conscious punishment. He embraced Annihilationism. And he said, my 644 00:33:44,410 --> 00:33:48,170 S7: conscience simply can't live with the idea of people suffering 645 00:33:48,170 --> 00:33:52,770 S7: forever and ever. I understand that. I don't easily dismiss that. 646 00:33:53,130 --> 00:33:57,810 S7: But my conscience is not the ultimate standard for truth. Yes, 647 00:33:57,810 --> 00:34:00,370 S7: what feels good and right to me is not the 648 00:34:00,370 --> 00:34:02,730 S7: way in which I decide what is right and wrong. 649 00:34:03,290 --> 00:34:06,250 S7: The answer to that question is what does God say? 650 00:34:06,250 --> 00:34:09,049 S7: What has he revealed? And even if we sit here 651 00:34:09,050 --> 00:34:11,650 S7: and we could talk about this subject, Janet, forever and ever, 652 00:34:12,050 --> 00:34:14,450 S7: and if we never resolve it, we never answer all 653 00:34:14,450 --> 00:34:17,290 S7: the questions and people call in, they still have objections. 654 00:34:17,890 --> 00:34:20,810 S7: The fact of the matter is, we have to say, 655 00:34:20,810 --> 00:34:24,090 S7: what does the Bible tell us? We just simply cannot 656 00:34:24,250 --> 00:34:26,850 S7: make our decisions based on what we think is right 657 00:34:26,850 --> 00:34:30,049 S7: or wrong, or how we conceive of God. We have 658 00:34:30,050 --> 00:34:31,810 S7: to know what he thinks is right and wrong and 659 00:34:31,810 --> 00:34:33,129 S7: how he portrays himself. 660 00:34:33,450 --> 00:34:33,850 S8: Yeah. 661 00:34:34,370 --> 00:34:37,770 S1: Well, again, the culture steps into this conversation at some 662 00:34:37,770 --> 00:34:42,130 S1: point because, you know, the ridicule done by the secular 663 00:34:42,130 --> 00:34:44,890 S1: world on this is someone's going to show up with 664 00:34:44,890 --> 00:34:49,050 S1: sackcloth and ashes and they're going to preach hellfire and damnation. Okay, well, 665 00:34:49,050 --> 00:34:51,810 S1: it's all there. And once upon a time, that was 666 00:34:51,810 --> 00:34:54,900 S1: the way in which preaching was done. And then somewhere 667 00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:57,819 S1: along the line, we've changed our mind and decided that 668 00:34:57,820 --> 00:35:00,580 S1: we're not going to get people to recognize they are 669 00:35:00,580 --> 00:35:02,540 S1: sinners in the hands of an angry God. And so 670 00:35:02,540 --> 00:35:04,700 S1: we're going to take a different approach on this. I 671 00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:06,420 S1: don't think it's an either or. I think it's a 672 00:35:06,420 --> 00:35:09,140 S1: both end. Some people have decided they'll forget the past 673 00:35:09,140 --> 00:35:10,700 S1: part of it, and they'll just do the stuff where 674 00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:13,260 S1: all we do is talk about God's love. Well, God's 675 00:35:13,260 --> 00:35:16,500 S1: love is meaningless without God's law. And if you break 676 00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:20,339 S1: his law by rejecting him and what he's told us 677 00:35:20,340 --> 00:35:23,460 S1: he did for us at Calvary, there is a penalty. Otherwise, 678 00:35:23,780 --> 00:35:26,259 S1: it makes a mockery, does it not? Of Calvary, when 679 00:35:26,260 --> 00:35:29,180 S1: you think about it, because there really is no division 680 00:35:29,180 --> 00:35:31,700 S1: between the saved and the unsaved and everything that Christ 681 00:35:31,739 --> 00:35:33,620 S1: has set us. And by the way, I'm sitting here 682 00:35:33,620 --> 00:35:38,060 S1: ruminating on these three verses that you wrote in revelation 14. Wow. 683 00:35:38,380 --> 00:35:40,540 S1: I mean, there is no rest day and night for 684 00:35:40,540 --> 00:35:43,700 S1: those who worship the beast and the image of. For 685 00:35:43,700 --> 00:35:45,980 S1: everyone who receives the mark of the beast. And then 686 00:35:45,980 --> 00:35:48,180 S1: you talk about the fact that he will be tormented 687 00:35:48,180 --> 00:35:50,620 S1: with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, 688 00:35:50,620 --> 00:35:52,830 S1: and of the lamb and of the smoke of their 689 00:35:52,830 --> 00:35:56,950 S1: torment rises forever and ever. There is no rest day 690 00:35:56,950 --> 00:36:00,069 S1: or night. Now you know. I don't know how else 691 00:36:00,070 --> 00:36:02,470 S1: you take that other than it is an eternal aspect 692 00:36:02,469 --> 00:36:04,790 S1: to this separation from God, which should get us very 693 00:36:04,790 --> 00:36:07,670 S1: serious about sin, very serious about the nature of God, 694 00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:10,230 S1: and very serious about when is the last time you 695 00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:12,390 S1: talked to somebody about Jesus? Because in the end, the 696 00:36:12,390 --> 00:36:15,710 S1: world divides itself into two camps those who said yes 697 00:36:15,870 --> 00:36:17,989 S1: and those who said no. We're going to be back 698 00:36:17,989 --> 00:36:35,109 S1: with Doctor Sam Storms right after this. We're spending the 699 00:36:35,110 --> 00:36:37,029 S1: hour with Doctor Sam Storms an hour, by the way, 700 00:36:37,030 --> 00:36:39,590 S1: for the record, has gone far too quickly. So thankful 701 00:36:39,590 --> 00:36:42,630 S1: Doctor Storms comes and visits on a regular basis because 702 00:36:42,630 --> 00:36:46,350 S1: he's such an excellent teacher. So resource for our conversation. 703 00:36:46,390 --> 00:36:49,149 S1: A dozen things God did with your sin and three 704 00:36:49,150 --> 00:36:52,549 S1: things he'll never do. It's on my information page. Read it. 705 00:36:52,590 --> 00:36:55,350 S1: Point number one is this idea that he put our 706 00:36:55,350 --> 00:36:58,189 S1: sins on his son so that the penalty for sin 707 00:36:58,190 --> 00:37:01,390 S1: would be paid. Substitutionary atonement. There are all kinds of 708 00:37:01,390 --> 00:37:03,630 S1: other things in that book we've yet to discuss, but 709 00:37:03,630 --> 00:37:05,670 S1: this was so crucial. You see how it sort of 710 00:37:05,710 --> 00:37:09,150 S1: like Russian nesting dolls gave birth to more ideas that 711 00:37:09,150 --> 00:37:12,390 S1: are intrinsically in this idea of what God did for us. 712 00:37:12,469 --> 00:37:14,910 S1: So you touched on and did a beautiful job, Sam, 713 00:37:14,910 --> 00:37:17,990 S1: of talking about nihilism, which is where your soul just 714 00:37:17,989 --> 00:37:20,110 S1: is done eventually at some point. So you pay the penalty, 715 00:37:20,110 --> 00:37:22,950 S1: you're separated from God, but then you just evaporate. You're gone. 716 00:37:23,230 --> 00:37:25,870 S1: The other one is this universalism, which is an idea 717 00:37:25,870 --> 00:37:28,990 S1: that falls under its own weight. Because if universalism were true, 718 00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:31,310 S1: Calvary was wrong. Talk to me about that. 719 00:37:32,190 --> 00:37:37,230 S7: Yeah, I and again, I understand, although I am adamantly 720 00:37:37,230 --> 00:37:40,830 S7: opposed to the idea of universal salvation, uh, I just 721 00:37:40,830 --> 00:37:44,910 S7: think it's totally unbiblical. I know why people go there. Um, 722 00:37:44,910 --> 00:37:48,399 S7: people who have had unbelieving family members and they have 723 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,600 S7: died and they live in agony about their eternal destiny. 724 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,640 S7: And so I can understand the emotional appeal both of 725 00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:00,080 S7: Annihilationism and universalism. But as I said before the break, 726 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,000 S7: and I just hope people hear this. My emotions, your emotions, 727 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,640 S7: our emotions, what makes us feel good or bad is 728 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:12,080 S7: no criterion for truth. It is rather God's Word. And 729 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,120 S7: I want to say one more thing just to kind 730 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,359 S7: of ask a question for people to consider when they 731 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,759 S7: think about, um, the whole issue of penal substitutionary atonement, 732 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,800 S7: if in fact, God could just easily dismiss our sin 733 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,600 S7: and just so pour out his grace and forgiveness that 734 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,359 S7: all wrath and justice would disappear. Why did Jesus have 735 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,719 S7: to die at all? I mean, how do you explain 736 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:43,040 S7: the horrific torture to which he was subjected? Um, the 737 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,560 S7: fact that he was crucified naked, not with a loin 738 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,759 S7: cloth for modesty's sake, as we see in pictures and films, 739 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,200 S7: but naked in the in the public eye. Scourged. Tortured. 740 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:59,759 S7: Beaten beyond recognition. Why? Why would God the Father have 741 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,960 S7: allowed this if it weren't absolutely necessary to deal with 742 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,200 S7: our sin? You know, I think one of the most 743 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,200 S7: incredible verses in the Bible, because of its unbreakable logic 744 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:16,640 S7: is Romans eight beginning in verse 32, he who did 745 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,200 S7: not spare his own son like I tend to spare 746 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,120 S7: my kids, my grandkids when they do things. And I'm 747 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,919 S7: feeling awfully nice. But God did not spare Jesus, but 748 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,359 S7: gave him up for us all. How will he not 749 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,200 S7: also with him graciously give us all things? And then 750 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,280 S7: he asked this question, who shall bring a charge against 751 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,040 S7: God's elect? Well, I think, well, a whole lot of people. 752 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,160 S7: Satan and his demons charge us. But then his answer 753 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,650 S7: is it is God who justifies, who is to condemn Christ. 754 00:39:44,650 --> 00:39:46,290 S7: Jesus is the one who died more than that, who 755 00:39:46,290 --> 00:39:48,569 S7: was raised, who is at the right hand of God 756 00:39:48,570 --> 00:39:52,450 S7: interceding for us. So I would just challenge people if 757 00:39:52,770 --> 00:39:57,530 S7: if you're having a hard time understanding the whole concept 758 00:39:57,530 --> 00:40:01,450 S7: of wrath and forgiveness and love and grace and all 759 00:40:01,450 --> 00:40:08,370 S7: these things, ask yourself, think deeply. If in fact retributive 760 00:40:08,370 --> 00:40:10,770 S7: justice is not a part of God's character and it 761 00:40:10,770 --> 00:40:15,330 S7: wasn't necessary that it be satisfied and propitiated. Why did 762 00:40:15,330 --> 00:40:17,969 S7: Jesus have to die? And if you say, well, he 763 00:40:17,969 --> 00:40:19,770 S7: died because he wanted to give us a good example 764 00:40:19,770 --> 00:40:23,730 S7: of how to serve others well, honestly, I don't see 765 00:40:23,730 --> 00:40:26,770 S7: how that helps me very much. I mean, my greatest 766 00:40:26,770 --> 00:40:30,210 S7: need is to be free of the guilt of my sin. 767 00:40:30,530 --> 00:40:32,969 S7: And if the death of Jesus doesn't deal with that, 768 00:40:33,250 --> 00:40:37,170 S7: it's not loving. It's not kind. So there's just an 769 00:40:37,370 --> 00:40:40,770 S7: inescapable reality in Scripture of why the death of Jesus 770 00:40:40,770 --> 00:40:42,740 S7: was necessary and what it did for us. 771 00:40:43,820 --> 00:40:46,259 S1: You anticipated my question, but I want to make sure 772 00:40:46,260 --> 00:40:49,380 S1: that everyone listening really understands this. So someone listening to 773 00:40:49,380 --> 00:40:52,020 S1: this conversation might go, oh, great. You started out talking 774 00:40:52,020 --> 00:40:55,140 S1: about a dozen things God did with your sin and 775 00:40:55,140 --> 00:40:57,700 S1: three things he'll never do. And you talked about he 776 00:40:57,700 --> 00:41:02,299 S1: laid our sin on Jesus substitutionary atonement. And then you've 777 00:41:02,340 --> 00:41:05,580 S1: talked about, um, the fact that God's wrath had to 778 00:41:05,580 --> 00:41:08,340 S1: be satisfied. And then we moved and talked about hell, 779 00:41:08,340 --> 00:41:10,780 S1: and we talked about whether or not this was going 780 00:41:10,780 --> 00:41:14,420 S1: to be, um, someone is ultimately annihilated or ultimately everyone 781 00:41:14,420 --> 00:41:16,940 S1: just goes to heaven anyway and thrown in there, by 782 00:41:16,940 --> 00:41:20,020 S1: the way, just for conversation to talk about burning sulfur. 783 00:41:20,020 --> 00:41:21,859 S1: So tell me again how this all ties back into 784 00:41:21,900 --> 00:41:22,580 S1: God's love. 785 00:41:24,900 --> 00:41:28,540 S7: Well, I know this is going to open up a 786 00:41:28,540 --> 00:41:31,060 S7: whole can of worms and people who are listening. I'm 787 00:41:31,060 --> 00:41:32,899 S7: just preparing you, folks. You're not going to like what 788 00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:38,339 S7: you hear. God's greatest love is for the holiness of 789 00:41:38,340 --> 00:41:43,460 S7: his own name. God loves himself. Pre-eminently. And let me 790 00:41:43,460 --> 00:41:47,380 S7: tell you something that is not selfishness, because what God 791 00:41:47,380 --> 00:41:51,459 S7: does in his love for himself is to awaken us 792 00:41:51,460 --> 00:41:54,500 S7: to his greatness, his beauty, his glory, and his majesty. 793 00:41:54,540 --> 00:41:56,819 S7: What's the most loving thing that God could do for 794 00:41:56,820 --> 00:41:59,780 S7: us sinners? It is to give us himself to open 795 00:41:59,780 --> 00:42:03,299 S7: our eyes to his splendor and his majesty. So if 796 00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:06,540 S7: God doesn't love himself Pre-eminently, he can't love us at all. 797 00:42:06,980 --> 00:42:11,819 S7: So again, I know it sounds strange, but God's commitment 798 00:42:11,820 --> 00:42:16,580 S7: to retributive justice and holiness and wrath is in fact 799 00:42:16,580 --> 00:42:19,219 S7: an expression of his love for his, for himself, for 800 00:42:19,219 --> 00:42:23,060 S7: his own name, for his reputation. In fact, it's interesting. 801 00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:25,460 S7: I don't know how many times people think of this, 802 00:42:25,940 --> 00:42:30,060 S7: but yes, Jesus died for us. But there's another sense 803 00:42:30,060 --> 00:42:32,900 S7: in which Jesus died for God. Now, I don't mean 804 00:42:33,100 --> 00:42:36,300 S7: that in a substitutionary way, but listen to what Paul 805 00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:39,750 S7: says in Romans chapter three. He says, God put him 806 00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:42,950 S7: forth as a propitiation by his blood to receive by faith. 807 00:42:43,350 --> 00:42:47,030 S7: This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine 808 00:42:47,030 --> 00:42:50,350 S7: forbearance he had passed over for former sins. It was 809 00:42:50,350 --> 00:42:53,629 S7: to show his righteousness at the present time, so that 810 00:42:53,630 --> 00:42:55,509 S7: he might be the just and the justifier of the 811 00:42:55,510 --> 00:42:58,670 S7: one who has faith in Jesus. So, in other words, yes, 812 00:42:58,950 --> 00:43:02,549 S7: Jesus died in our place. He's our substitute. But his 813 00:43:02,550 --> 00:43:06,950 S7: death was also a demonstration of the righteousness of God 814 00:43:06,950 --> 00:43:09,509 S7: that God does not wink at sin. It was to 815 00:43:09,550 --> 00:43:12,710 S7: demonstrate how God can be just and righteous and true, 816 00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:15,430 S7: even though all through the Old Testament there was no 817 00:43:15,430 --> 00:43:19,390 S7: final dealing with sin. And Paul saying it was in 818 00:43:19,390 --> 00:43:22,350 S7: God's forbearance, he waited until the time when Jesus would 819 00:43:22,350 --> 00:43:25,390 S7: become man and suffer on the cross. That's when he 820 00:43:25,390 --> 00:43:29,910 S7: vindicated the holiness of God, the justice of God, all 821 00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:31,870 S7: of which is an expression of God's love. 822 00:43:32,230 --> 00:43:32,670 S8: Wow. 823 00:43:32,790 --> 00:43:35,310 S1: Well, did I not tell you that this would be 824 00:43:35,350 --> 00:43:38,630 S1: a delicious conversation, and b that we were going to 825 00:43:38,630 --> 00:43:41,029 S1: think critically and biblically. And like I said, this is 826 00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:43,310 S1: just the tip of the iceberg. There's oh, so much 827 00:43:43,310 --> 00:43:46,069 S1: more to this idea of how much God loves us 828 00:43:46,070 --> 00:43:49,189 S1: and this issue of our sin. And I so appreciate, Sam, 829 00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:51,670 S1: what you just said about the holiness of God. I 830 00:43:51,670 --> 00:43:53,390 S1: have to tell you, in my own life, that's where 831 00:43:53,390 --> 00:43:55,350 S1: I constantly have to go back to again. That's the 832 00:43:55,350 --> 00:43:59,310 S1: northern star. You have the privilege to enter the throne 833 00:43:59,310 --> 00:44:03,750 S1: room of a holy God. Keep your lists short of wrongdoing, 834 00:44:03,790 --> 00:44:08,630 S1: work about your salvation. Make sure that you're working on sanctification, 835 00:44:08,630 --> 00:44:11,350 S1: and understand that we are called to be holy as 836 00:44:11,350 --> 00:44:14,110 S1: he is holy. Wow, there's so much there. Boy, I 837 00:44:14,110 --> 00:44:15,509 S1: don't know where we'll go the next time. We could 838 00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:18,510 S1: talk about understanding prayer. We could talk about understanding worship. 839 00:44:18,510 --> 00:44:20,190 S1: We could open up the phone lines and let people 840 00:44:20,190 --> 00:44:22,670 S1: ask any question they've got. That's the joy of spending 841 00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:25,989 S1: time with Doctor Sam Storms. He is an encyclopedia of 842 00:44:25,989 --> 00:44:28,189 S1: biblical teaching and we all love it and are better 843 00:44:28,190 --> 00:44:30,150 S1: for it. Thank you Sam. Thank you friends. We'll see 844 00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:32,390 S1: you next time on In the Market with Janet Parshall.