1 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,280 S1: I love stories like the one you're going to hear today, 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,280 S1: because it's a story of awakening, a story of coming 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,840 S1: alive to the truth of God's existence and then realizing 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,599 S1: this God doesn't just exist. He cares for you and me. 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,320 S1: Our guest lived much of his early life as an atheist. 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,480 S1: He was convinced science had explained away the need for God. 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,120 S1: But something happened that turned his world upside down. One 8 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,920 S1: sentence from his wife ignited a journey for Michael Ray 9 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,960 S1: Lewis's life. And I think it's going to encourage you today. 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,720 S1: It might give you a vision for someone you know 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,040 S1: who has rejected Christianity because they see science as incompatible 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,800 S1: with faith. You'll meet Michael, you'll hear his story, and 13 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:52,920 S1: you'll hear about the project he has been working on. 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,400 S1: That is an amazing cinematic work that's coming up today 15 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,620 S1: at the Radio Backyard Fence, the program for the heart, 16 00:01:00,620 --> 00:01:03,500 S1: from the heart and to the heart and the program 17 00:01:03,500 --> 00:01:06,300 S1: for your mind as well. Don't forget your mind. Let 18 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:08,899 S1: me thank our team. Working hard behind the scenes Ryan 19 00:01:08,900 --> 00:01:12,700 S1: McConaughey is doing all things technical. Tricia is our producer. 20 00:01:12,700 --> 00:01:16,980 S1: Josh is going to be answering your calls today. And, uh, 21 00:01:17,300 --> 00:01:20,060 S1: let me thank our new friends in Aberdeen, South Dakota 22 00:01:20,420 --> 00:01:24,020 S1: who are listening to 88.1 KFC. It is great to 23 00:01:24,020 --> 00:01:26,300 S1: have you with us. This the I think it's the 24 00:01:26,300 --> 00:01:29,900 S1: second day that they'll be airing our program, and the 25 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:32,100 S1: reason we get to have these conversations each day is 26 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:36,860 S1: because you, your support, especially here at the end of 2025, 27 00:01:36,900 --> 00:01:39,420 S1: is a real encouragement to us. Our thank you right 28 00:01:39,420 --> 00:01:42,580 S1: now is kind of a legacy book that you are 29 00:01:42,580 --> 00:01:46,220 S1: going to return to every year at this time. It's 30 00:01:46,220 --> 00:01:51,340 S1: titled Hosanna in Excelsis Hymns and Devotions for the Christmas Season. 31 00:01:51,780 --> 00:01:56,100 S1: David and Barbara Lehman take 43 hymns and carols and 32 00:01:56,100 --> 00:01:59,240 S1: go into their history. The people who wrote the words 33 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,880 S1: and the music and take you deeply into the meaning 34 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,640 S1: of those songs. And I would love to send you 35 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,680 S1: a copy. So call or click through today and let's 36 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,399 S1: get this into your hands. Thank you for your generosity 37 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:20,240 S1: here at the end of 2025. Call us at 8669538669532279 38 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:27,520 S1: or go to Chris Fabbri. Fabbri, Chris. And again, thanks 39 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,640 S1: for your support at the radio backyard fence. Your gift 40 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,240 S1: helps us do what we're going to do today. And 41 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,320 S1: I think one of the best things we do on 42 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,000 S1: a program like this in all of Moody Radio is 43 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,399 S1: expose you to things that you might not hear about. 44 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,240 S1: My guess is you might not have heard of a 45 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,639 S1: new documentary that's coming out by Michael Ray Lewis. He 46 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,960 S1: is a Christian apologist, owner of the film production company 47 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,040 S1: Turtle Moon Films. Also the director and creator of the 48 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,810 S1: documentary that we're going to talk about today, Universe Designed, 49 00:03:00,090 --> 00:03:03,930 S1: which is a cinematic exploration of science, faith and the 50 00:03:03,970 --> 00:03:09,370 S1: evidence for a creator. It starts streaming in 11 days 51 00:03:09,370 --> 00:03:13,090 S1: on December the 13th. Michael, welcome to the program. How 52 00:03:13,130 --> 00:03:13,970 S1: are you doing today? 53 00:03:14,290 --> 00:03:16,250 S2: Thank you so much for having me, Chris. I'm doing well. 54 00:03:16,290 --> 00:03:16,930 S2: Doing well. 55 00:03:17,330 --> 00:03:19,970 S1: Tell me about Turtle Moon Films. Why did you title 56 00:03:19,970 --> 00:03:20,530 S1: it that? 57 00:03:21,090 --> 00:03:24,290 S2: So that actually became it was a joke. Originally, whenever 58 00:03:24,290 --> 00:03:27,490 S2: I decided to create a production company, um, I wanted 59 00:03:27,490 --> 00:03:29,570 S2: to get into film for so long. I mean, I've 60 00:03:29,570 --> 00:03:32,370 S2: been doing it since I was little. And when I 61 00:03:32,370 --> 00:03:36,170 S2: finally decided to start the production company, I had created 62 00:03:36,170 --> 00:03:39,490 S2: that title as a as a joke, and it just stuck. 63 00:03:39,490 --> 00:03:41,850 S2: And I and I noticed that it was catchy and 64 00:03:41,850 --> 00:03:44,010 S2: people remembered it. And so that's what I ended up 65 00:03:44,010 --> 00:03:47,010 S2: sticking with. And I always loved turtles. And there you go. 66 00:03:47,970 --> 00:03:50,410 S2: So there's really no there's really no meaning behind it. 67 00:03:50,450 --> 00:03:53,290 S2: It's just, uh, that's what sticks. And that's one of 68 00:03:53,290 --> 00:03:56,190 S2: the things with with productions and any kind of business 69 00:03:56,230 --> 00:03:58,710 S2: like you come up with something that's unique and it'll 70 00:03:58,710 --> 00:04:00,590 S2: pop and people will remember it well. 71 00:04:00,590 --> 00:04:04,310 S1: And it's it's uniquely you too. You know, it's it 72 00:04:04,350 --> 00:04:07,910 S1: harkens back. And that's the thing about any creative endeavor, 73 00:04:07,910 --> 00:04:10,790 S1: it's like when you tap into what, what makes you 74 00:04:10,830 --> 00:04:12,950 S1: come alive and what makes you wake up early in 75 00:04:12,950 --> 00:04:14,790 S1: the morning and want to go out and do that. 76 00:04:14,950 --> 00:04:17,510 S1: You know that that speaks volumes to other people who 77 00:04:17,550 --> 00:04:20,590 S1: are going to consume it or watch it. See it. Right? 78 00:04:20,630 --> 00:04:21,390 S2: Exactly. 79 00:04:22,110 --> 00:04:26,190 S1: Um, so take me back to little Steven Spielberg. You know, 80 00:04:26,230 --> 00:04:29,349 S1: you wanted to because I've heard the stories of him 81 00:04:29,350 --> 00:04:33,230 S1: and shooting all of this, uh, the super eight movie. 82 00:04:33,270 --> 00:04:36,190 S1: What was your first film that you put together? 83 00:04:36,990 --> 00:04:40,190 S2: Uh, well, I started when I was 14 years old. 84 00:04:40,190 --> 00:04:43,830 S2: My dad came home with a VHS camcorder, and that 85 00:04:43,830 --> 00:04:46,230 S2: became everything to me. Like, I started making all kinds 86 00:04:46,230 --> 00:04:49,470 S2: of home videos, and I'd get my friends over and 87 00:04:49,470 --> 00:04:52,950 S2: we'd create home videos. And eventually, I think it was 88 00:04:52,950 --> 00:04:56,650 S2: in Thousand and 12 is when I really started to 89 00:04:56,690 --> 00:05:00,690 S2: kind of get into it, and I started doing weddings, 90 00:05:00,690 --> 00:05:03,050 S2: anything I could to try to make money with it. 91 00:05:03,050 --> 00:05:06,650 S2: But my goal has always been to make, um, I've 92 00:05:06,650 --> 00:05:10,410 S2: always had a desire to do narrative film, um, which 93 00:05:10,410 --> 00:05:13,010 S2: is interesting that I made this documentary because I never 94 00:05:13,010 --> 00:05:17,690 S2: anticipated documentaries. I actually used to not like documentaries, but 95 00:05:17,690 --> 00:05:20,450 S2: there's a reasoning behind this one. This was, uh, something 96 00:05:20,450 --> 00:05:22,289 S2: I felt like I was called to do and something 97 00:05:22,290 --> 00:05:23,210 S2: I needed to do. 98 00:05:23,650 --> 00:05:26,210 S1: Well, and I will say, and I told you this 99 00:05:26,210 --> 00:05:29,969 S1: before the program, after having watched it, I got a screener. 100 00:05:29,970 --> 00:05:32,290 S1: So I saw it on a little computer screen. And 101 00:05:32,290 --> 00:05:34,490 S1: so it's not, you know, the full experience that you 102 00:05:34,490 --> 00:05:37,970 S1: want me to have. But what it didn't feel like 103 00:05:37,970 --> 00:05:40,929 S1: a documentary to me in the sense that I didn't 104 00:05:40,930 --> 00:05:47,529 S1: have somebody, you know, the the deep voiced Orson Welles 105 00:05:47,529 --> 00:05:50,130 S1: or whomever who's telling you what to think, or here's 106 00:05:50,130 --> 00:05:53,130 S1: what we're going to do now. It's like when you 107 00:05:53,230 --> 00:05:56,190 S1: begin to watch this, you are in it and you 108 00:05:56,190 --> 00:06:01,150 S1: are being led by those who are being asked these questions. 109 00:06:01,150 --> 00:06:04,430 S1: And it is a very designed way that it's all 110 00:06:04,430 --> 00:06:07,110 S1: put together with so many different voices and so many 111 00:06:07,110 --> 00:06:11,270 S1: different places that you take us and just, uh, images 112 00:06:11,270 --> 00:06:15,030 S1: that pop off the screen, that it feels like I 113 00:06:15,070 --> 00:06:18,150 S1: am the narrator, in a sense, trying to make sense 114 00:06:18,150 --> 00:06:20,150 S1: of what is going on here. Is that was that 115 00:06:20,150 --> 00:06:21,190 S1: what you're trying to do? 116 00:06:21,589 --> 00:06:24,950 S2: Absolutely. Um, it was actually really interesting because whenever I 117 00:06:24,950 --> 00:06:28,110 S2: first went to get all the interviews for these people, 118 00:06:28,589 --> 00:06:32,070 S2: I didn't have any clear story in mind. All I 119 00:06:32,070 --> 00:06:35,710 S2: knew was that I wanted to ask for one. I 120 00:06:35,710 --> 00:06:36,910 S2: didn't think I was going to be able to get 121 00:06:36,910 --> 00:06:38,550 S2: all the people I did in the film. It was 122 00:06:38,550 --> 00:06:41,670 S2: surprising to me that half of them responded and said yes, 123 00:06:42,110 --> 00:06:44,510 S2: and so all I could think was, I need to 124 00:06:44,510 --> 00:06:46,070 S2: get a plane ticket, I need to fly out there, 125 00:06:46,070 --> 00:06:47,990 S2: and I need to ask them all the questions that 126 00:06:47,990 --> 00:06:50,830 S2: I had as an atheist. And so that's what I did. 127 00:06:50,830 --> 00:06:54,640 S2: I wrote down pages of questions directed towards specific people 128 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,400 S2: based on the books I had read from them, and 129 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,039 S2: ended up with about 36 hours of content that I 130 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,520 S2: had to compress down to an hour and 25 minute movie. 131 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,680 S2: And I, I gave it all to the Holy Spirit 132 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,040 S2: for doing that, because looking back, I mean, this has 133 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,840 S2: been four years in the production. And looking back, I 134 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,360 S2: don't know how I did it. All I know is, um, 135 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,440 S2: there were so many arguments I wanted to include that 136 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,720 S2: I wasn't able to, but it prompted on me that I. 137 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,640 S2: My goal was to just do as Greg Kokal says, 138 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,000 S2: to plant a stone in someone's shoe. And so while 139 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,600 S2: I can't build an entire case for the existence of 140 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,400 S2: God in one movie, what I can do is I 141 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,560 S2: can get them thinking and I can give enough evidence 142 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,360 S2: that's persuasive enough to have them second guessing this whole 143 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,880 S2: Christianity thing, taking a second look at it, and realizing 144 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:46,280 S2: it's worth thinking about. 145 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,320 S1: Well, and that was what one of the I can't 146 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,340 S1: remember who said it, but I jotted it down. It 147 00:07:51,340 --> 00:07:56,900 S1: was like I'm. I didn't go toward Christianity to to believe. 148 00:07:57,220 --> 00:08:00,900 S1: I went looking for what the truth was, and I 149 00:08:00,940 --> 00:08:03,740 S1: now I am stuck in the truth. And I thought, 150 00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:07,580 S1: that's it right there. You're stuck in the truth. Because 151 00:08:07,580 --> 00:08:11,500 S1: if you really look for the truth and and that 152 00:08:11,500 --> 00:08:14,860 S1: is what you want to do, then you know, if, 153 00:08:14,900 --> 00:08:18,220 S1: if this is where the evidence leads you, you're stuck. 154 00:08:18,260 --> 00:08:21,020 S1: You got to be there. So and some of the 155 00:08:21,020 --> 00:08:24,620 S1: people that you mentioned, Hugh Ross, Steven Meyer, J. Warner Wallace, 156 00:08:24,620 --> 00:08:29,340 S1: Frank Turek, Alisa Childers, Greg Allen, Par Shawn McDowell and 157 00:08:29,340 --> 00:08:34,900 S1: many others. In universe Designed Again, it streams begins streaming 158 00:08:34,900 --> 00:08:38,820 S1: December the 13th. I want to get into more of 159 00:08:38,860 --> 00:08:41,060 S1: who you want to see it, and what you hope 160 00:08:41,059 --> 00:08:44,460 S1: happens in people's lives as they watch it. But I 161 00:08:44,460 --> 00:08:46,340 S1: want to get into your life. I want to go 162 00:08:46,340 --> 00:08:49,400 S1: back and hit the Wayback Machine and find out what 163 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,080 S1: was going on in your life that had you so 164 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,920 S1: diametrically opposed to Christianity that you were you were an 165 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,120 S1: atheist and you were weren't moving from that. So let's 166 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,080 S1: take a quick break. We'll come back. If you go 167 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,840 S1: to Chris org, you'll see more about our guest today 168 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,920 S1: and the new film, the documentary that comes out December 13th. 169 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:15,800 S1: It's titled Universe Designed so featured resource. Just go to Chris. 170 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:33,360 S1: Chris Fabriclive for more straight ahead on Moody Radio. His 171 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,080 S1: name is Michael Ray Lewis. Remember that name. You're going 172 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,880 S1: to hear that again. He's director and creator of the 173 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:47,080 S1: documentary Universe Designed, which is a cinematic exploration of science, faith, 174 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:52,180 S1: and the evidence for a creator. So it's an apologetic film. 175 00:09:52,220 --> 00:09:56,780 S1: It's coming out streams December 13th. We have a link 176 00:09:56,820 --> 00:10:03,860 S1: at Chris. Chris. Org. I saw this a little earlier today. 177 00:10:03,900 --> 00:10:06,459 S1: Watched the whole thing. I could go on and on 178 00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:09,740 S1: just about the intricacy of it, but I want to 179 00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:13,260 S1: go now to your story because I know there was 180 00:10:13,260 --> 00:10:15,819 S1: a big change in your life. You didn't believe you. 181 00:10:15,860 --> 00:10:19,540 S1: You are, you know, it says after your name, Christian apologist. Boy, 182 00:10:19,540 --> 00:10:21,459 S1: that wasn't what you thought you were going to be 183 00:10:21,460 --> 00:10:24,579 S1: doing when you were in your 20s or early 20s, right? 184 00:10:24,900 --> 00:10:26,220 S2: Not in a million years. 185 00:10:27,380 --> 00:10:33,059 S1: Tell me about what made you believe in, uh, you 186 00:10:33,100 --> 00:10:36,220 S1: were an agnostic or an atheist, that God was not there. 187 00:10:37,140 --> 00:10:40,660 S2: Well, growing up, I mean, my family always said that 188 00:10:40,660 --> 00:10:43,819 S2: they believed in God, but we never talked about God. 189 00:10:43,820 --> 00:10:46,380 S2: We never read the Bible. I'm pretty sure there was 190 00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:48,470 S2: a Bible under the bed, but we never touched it. 191 00:10:48,910 --> 00:10:52,470 S2: I didn't know anything about Jesus or the gospel. And 192 00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:55,910 S2: so growing up, I mean, there was no reason to believe. 193 00:10:55,950 --> 00:10:58,670 S2: I mean, there was no one telling me I should, 194 00:10:58,710 --> 00:11:00,950 S2: and there was no one giving any giving me any 195 00:11:00,950 --> 00:11:04,750 S2: reasons to believe it. And so growing up, um, in 196 00:11:04,750 --> 00:11:08,750 S2: addition to that real interaction I had with Christians, were 197 00:11:08,750 --> 00:11:11,069 S2: the ones that were on the street corners yelling at 198 00:11:11,070 --> 00:11:14,830 S2: me that I'm going to hell. And so I didn't 199 00:11:14,830 --> 00:11:17,550 S2: want anything to do with that belief system. And the 200 00:11:17,550 --> 00:11:21,310 S2: more I thought I had looked into it, uh, the 201 00:11:21,309 --> 00:11:23,550 S2: more I realized, well, there's no good reason to believe 202 00:11:23,550 --> 00:11:26,350 S2: it anyways. I mean, I would hit Christians with difficult 203 00:11:26,350 --> 00:11:29,470 S2: questions that they weren't able to answer, and I would 204 00:11:29,470 --> 00:11:33,630 S2: watch documentaries making fun of Christianity. There was one by 205 00:11:33,630 --> 00:11:36,910 S2: Bill Maher. Uh, then there was another one called zeitgeist, 206 00:11:36,910 --> 00:11:39,910 S2: which basically said that, you know, Jesus, he wasn't an 207 00:11:39,910 --> 00:11:43,230 S2: actual historical figure. He was just a myth that was 208 00:11:43,230 --> 00:11:45,810 S2: copied by all these other ancient myths before him. And 209 00:11:45,809 --> 00:11:49,730 S2: there's all these similarities. And so in my mind, looking 210 00:11:49,730 --> 00:11:51,569 S2: at it, there was no good reason to believe it. 211 00:11:52,210 --> 00:11:55,410 S2: And so I kind of became aggressive towards it. And 212 00:11:55,410 --> 00:11:59,770 S2: I think I did because I, I didn't like the 213 00:11:59,770 --> 00:12:03,090 S2: idea of Christianity, and I didn't like what I saw 214 00:12:03,090 --> 00:12:07,330 S2: in Christians. And a little bit later in life, I 215 00:12:07,330 --> 00:12:10,530 S2: got married to my wife and she was raised in 216 00:12:10,530 --> 00:12:13,690 S2: the church. Just to kind of put it in context. Um, however, 217 00:12:13,690 --> 00:12:15,250 S2: she was pulled away by a lot, by a lot 218 00:12:15,250 --> 00:12:17,850 S2: of her friends. And then obviously when we started dating, 219 00:12:17,850 --> 00:12:21,370 S2: I was definitely pulling her away. Um, but a little 220 00:12:21,370 --> 00:12:23,689 S2: while later, she came up to me and she said, 221 00:12:23,690 --> 00:12:27,290 S2: I feel like Jesus is calling me back. And I 222 00:12:27,290 --> 00:12:29,410 S2: remember thinking to myself, oh man, I don't want to 223 00:12:29,410 --> 00:12:31,490 S2: deal with any of this. But I said, all right, 224 00:12:31,490 --> 00:12:32,730 S2: you know what? I'll go to church with you and 225 00:12:32,730 --> 00:12:34,290 S2: I'll see what all this is about. And I remember 226 00:12:34,290 --> 00:12:36,250 S2: I walk in and I'm looking around and I'm like, 227 00:12:36,290 --> 00:12:38,770 S2: you know, this isn't the people on the street corner. Like, 228 00:12:38,770 --> 00:12:40,530 S2: this is a little different, I get it. It gives 229 00:12:40,530 --> 00:12:42,850 S2: them something to hope in. I just don't think that 230 00:12:42,850 --> 00:12:45,590 S2: it's true. And so I figured all I have to 231 00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:47,510 S2: do is, you know, just show her that it's not real. 232 00:12:47,510 --> 00:12:50,110 S2: And we could stop going to church because although I 233 00:12:50,110 --> 00:12:52,949 S2: didn't hate it, I also didn't want to go. And 234 00:12:52,950 --> 00:12:56,070 S2: in the process of trying to hit her with hard questions, 235 00:12:56,350 --> 00:12:59,110 S2: she wasn't able to answer them. But she was still 236 00:12:59,110 --> 00:13:02,310 S2: adamant that it was true. She even went to the 237 00:13:02,309 --> 00:13:04,790 S2: extent of buying me a Bible. And I remember I 238 00:13:04,790 --> 00:13:08,189 S2: opened the Bible. I read a few chapters of Genesis. 239 00:13:08,190 --> 00:13:10,670 S2: I pushed it away and I said, this is ridiculous. 240 00:13:10,670 --> 00:13:13,309 S2: Six days, there's just no way. And pushed it away 241 00:13:13,309 --> 00:13:17,030 S2: and said, there's no, this is nonsense. Um, and then 242 00:13:17,030 --> 00:13:19,750 S2: a little bit later, a YouTube video popped up on 243 00:13:19,750 --> 00:13:22,670 S2: my feed and it was a YouTube video by Doctor 244 00:13:22,670 --> 00:13:26,990 S2: Hugh Ross. Um, going over the fact that, you know, 245 00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:30,869 S2: Christianity and science are not in contradiction. They actually Genesis 246 00:13:30,870 --> 00:13:33,310 S2: lines up very well with what we're finding in science 247 00:13:33,309 --> 00:13:36,630 S2: and the discoveries we're finding in science. And I remember 248 00:13:36,910 --> 00:13:39,830 S2: that first, that was the first thing that piqued my curiosity. 249 00:13:40,630 --> 00:13:44,010 S2: And at that point, That's when I said, you know, 250 00:13:44,050 --> 00:13:45,850 S2: I'm going to take a little bit of a deeper look. 251 00:13:46,410 --> 00:13:50,010 S2: And that started a three year journey of me just 252 00:13:50,010 --> 00:13:53,849 S2: diving into book after book. I learned about Christian apologetics. 253 00:13:53,850 --> 00:13:56,050 S2: I learned that there was there were people out there 254 00:13:56,050 --> 00:14:00,890 S2: giving good evidences for God's existence. And I also realized 255 00:14:00,890 --> 00:14:03,490 S2: that no matter where I was looking, it was all 256 00:14:03,490 --> 00:14:07,130 S2: pointing in one direction. The evidence was just piling on 257 00:14:07,130 --> 00:14:09,890 S2: top of each other. Um, and at the end of 258 00:14:09,890 --> 00:14:13,610 S2: the three years, I remember, uh, there was a bunch 259 00:14:13,610 --> 00:14:15,730 S2: of questions I had about scripture that she wasn't able 260 00:14:15,730 --> 00:14:17,610 S2: to answer. And she finally said, you know what? There's 261 00:14:17,650 --> 00:14:19,450 S2: a theologian. He's a friend of the family. Why don't 262 00:14:19,450 --> 00:14:21,770 S2: you go and have a conversation with him? And so 263 00:14:21,770 --> 00:14:24,330 S2: I wrote down five pages just full of questions that 264 00:14:24,330 --> 00:14:27,290 S2: I'm ready to hammer this guy with. And I remember 265 00:14:27,290 --> 00:14:29,410 S2: I walk in and he answered every single one of 266 00:14:29,410 --> 00:14:32,890 S2: the questions using Scripture. And then he looks up at me, remember, 267 00:14:32,890 --> 00:14:34,690 S2: this is the end of the three years. He looks 268 00:14:34,690 --> 00:14:37,250 S2: up at me and he says, so do you think 269 00:14:37,250 --> 00:14:40,650 S2: that it's actually true? And I remember thinking to myself, 270 00:14:40,650 --> 00:14:43,070 S2: I don't have any more objections. I mean, I had 271 00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:44,990 S2: I had looked into all of this. I couldn't think 272 00:14:44,990 --> 00:14:47,830 S2: of any more objections to it. And I said, I 273 00:14:47,830 --> 00:14:50,310 S2: think I do, but it didn't hit me. Then it 274 00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:53,750 S2: actually hit me. On the drive home, I thought to myself, 275 00:14:53,750 --> 00:14:57,350 S2: I actually think this is true. And that was when 276 00:14:57,350 --> 00:15:00,230 S2: I realized that it wasn't the evidence that was holding 277 00:15:00,230 --> 00:15:02,430 S2: me back, it was the fact that I didn't want 278 00:15:02,430 --> 00:15:05,750 S2: it to be true. And when I thought to myself, 279 00:15:06,390 --> 00:15:08,470 S2: you don't want it to be true, I said, well, 280 00:15:08,470 --> 00:15:10,590 S2: that's not a good reason. So I threw my hands 281 00:15:10,590 --> 00:15:13,670 S2: up and I said, all right, what's next? Gave my 282 00:15:13,670 --> 00:15:17,869 S2: life to Christ, and since then have only further discovered 283 00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:21,950 S2: there so much, so much evidence out there that really 284 00:15:21,950 --> 00:15:25,030 S2: does show that Christianity is the best explanation. 285 00:15:25,710 --> 00:15:27,910 S1: Why didn't you want it to be true. 286 00:15:29,390 --> 00:15:32,670 S2: At the time? I would tell you, the reason I 287 00:15:32,670 --> 00:15:34,870 S2: didn't want it to be true was because I couldn't 288 00:15:34,870 --> 00:15:37,950 S2: believe in a God who would send me to an 289 00:15:37,990 --> 00:15:41,000 S2: eternal punishment, just because I have a little bit of 290 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,480 S2: trouble believing in him, that that's what I would tell 291 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,560 S2: you at the time. But looking back at it today, 292 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:52,080 S2: I realize it was because I didn't want to lose control. 293 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,720 S2: I think I was hesitant about it because the moment 294 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,480 S2: that you give your life to Christ, you're admitting that 295 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,080 S2: you don't have control of your life and you're giving 296 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,640 S2: all the control to him. And I didn't want to 297 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,280 S2: lose that control. And at the time, in addition, the 298 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:11,080 S2: reason I thought in my mindset that that I couldn't 299 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,440 S2: believe in God because I couldn't believe in a God 300 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,680 S2: who would send me to an eternal punishment just because 301 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,080 S2: I have a bit of trouble believing in him. Well, 302 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,360 S2: that's because I didn't understand the gospel that he wasn't 303 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,400 S2: sending me anywhere. I was sending myself there, and Jesus 304 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,600 S2: was standing right in front of me with his hand open, 305 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,240 S2: and all I had to do was take his hand, 306 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,920 S2: and instead I pushed it away. And I think a 307 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,640 S2: lot of people don't understand the gravity of the gospel. 308 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,600 S2: They've they've heard the language. They've heard. Repent and believe. 309 00:16:38,780 --> 00:16:42,100 S2: They've heard the lingo that they hear from from Christians 310 00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:44,180 S2: and kind of that language. But they I think what 311 00:16:44,180 --> 00:16:46,460 S2: we need to be more diligent about is helping people 312 00:16:46,460 --> 00:16:48,940 S2: to understand the gravity of what it means. 313 00:16:51,140 --> 00:16:54,980 S1: What did your wife say when you drove home and 314 00:16:54,980 --> 00:16:58,580 S1: walked in the door and had this, this big change, 315 00:16:58,620 --> 00:16:59,620 S1: big turnaround? 316 00:17:00,180 --> 00:17:02,460 S2: So I remember I walked in and she's sitting on 317 00:17:02,460 --> 00:17:05,100 S2: the couch and I walked around and she's just kind 318 00:17:05,140 --> 00:17:08,020 S2: of staring at me. So how'd it go? And I 319 00:17:08,020 --> 00:17:12,500 S2: remember thinking, well, I believe it. And I looked at 320 00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:14,700 S2: her and I told her, I believe that it's true. 321 00:17:14,980 --> 00:17:17,380 S2: And she got super excited, and she handed me a 322 00:17:17,380 --> 00:17:19,500 S2: cross necklace that she had bought for me ahead of time. 323 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:22,220 S2: And she said, I knew you were about to. So 324 00:17:22,220 --> 00:17:25,020 S2: she knew it was coming. Um, because she knew that 325 00:17:25,020 --> 00:17:26,980 S2: I had I was I was looking deeper than I 326 00:17:26,980 --> 00:17:30,020 S2: had ever looked at Christianity. I think that's the big problem, too, 327 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:34,540 S2: is because I was basing my belief system on, uh, 328 00:17:34,540 --> 00:17:38,159 S2: slogans I would hear or sayings that you hear like 329 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,200 S2: if there is a good God, he wouldn't allow evil 330 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,080 S2: and suffering in the world or evolution has disproven Christianity. 331 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,760 S2: And these are things that that people hear, and they 332 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,919 S2: just kind of base their belief system on it, rather 333 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,840 S2: than taking a second look and actually looking at the evidence. 334 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,560 S2: And that's why I think apologetics is so important and 335 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,880 S2: why I wanted to make this movie, because I want 336 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,880 S2: people to know there are good reasons out there. And 337 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,160 S2: even after giving my life to Christ, um, I most 338 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,520 S2: of the Christians, I was interacting with about 90% of 339 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,240 S2: the Christians I interacted with as a believer, as a 340 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,840 S2: new believer, um, were not equipped. They had no idea 341 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,399 S2: what apologetics was. They weren't able to answer all the 342 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,000 S2: questions that I had as an atheist. And so that's 343 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,120 S2: when I became passionate about helping others, helping to share 344 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,760 S2: that evidence with others, and helping equip believers so that 345 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,959 S2: they can be out there having conversations. Um, because if 346 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,119 S2: we don't know the reasons why we believe it or 347 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,800 S2: can't explain the reasons for why we believe it, um, 348 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,500 S2: how do we expect anyone to take us seriously. 349 00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:40,860 S1: Did your atheist friends. I assume you had atheist friends? 350 00:18:40,859 --> 00:18:43,900 S1: Did they try to talk you down from the ledge 351 00:18:43,940 --> 00:18:44,820 S1: type of thing? 352 00:18:46,060 --> 00:18:49,860 S2: You know, looking back. I don't think so. Um, because 353 00:18:49,859 --> 00:18:53,620 S2: the atheist atheist friends that I had and even myself, like, 354 00:18:53,820 --> 00:18:56,379 S2: I wouldn't, I was a pretty aggressive atheist because I 355 00:18:56,380 --> 00:18:58,980 S2: didn't believe there was a God, and I loved making 356 00:18:58,980 --> 00:19:02,300 S2: fun of Christians for it, but I, I wasn't knowledgeable 357 00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:06,340 S2: enough to to really push back. And so the same 358 00:19:06,420 --> 00:19:08,620 S2: my friends, like I had at this point, I had 359 00:19:08,619 --> 00:19:12,580 S2: studied quite a bit and I was able to respond 360 00:19:12,580 --> 00:19:14,980 S2: to a lot of the objections that they had because 361 00:19:14,980 --> 00:19:16,540 S2: they were in the same position I was in. They 362 00:19:16,540 --> 00:19:20,180 S2: hadn't thought deeply about these topics. They had just dismissed 363 00:19:20,180 --> 00:19:21,340 S2: the topic altogether. 364 00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:26,660 S1: There's somebody listening right now. Uh, I don't know. There's 365 00:19:26,660 --> 00:19:29,020 S1: not a word of knowledge thing or anything, but my 366 00:19:29,060 --> 00:19:33,020 S1: guess is there's somebody listening right now, either driving around 367 00:19:33,020 --> 00:19:36,990 S1: in their car or who's listening to this podcast of 368 00:19:37,030 --> 00:19:42,590 S1: 50 years from today, December 2nd, 2025. And they're looking 369 00:19:42,590 --> 00:19:46,550 S1: at the radio and they're saying, you're explaining, you're talking 370 00:19:46,550 --> 00:19:50,630 S1: about me. This is this is my life. Or the 371 00:19:50,630 --> 00:19:53,670 S1: person has a son or a daughter or a friend 372 00:19:53,670 --> 00:19:55,750 S1: or a brother or a mom or a dad. You know, 373 00:19:55,790 --> 00:19:59,390 S1: whoever it is. And they have been praying and it's like, 374 00:19:59,430 --> 00:20:02,950 S1: I have been praying for this change in this person 375 00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:05,710 S1: that I love for so long. And here you are 376 00:20:05,710 --> 00:20:10,790 S1: telling this. My guess is that your hope is to, 377 00:20:10,950 --> 00:20:14,390 S1: through this film and through telling your story to to 378 00:20:14,430 --> 00:20:19,950 S1: tell that person who's listening. Don't give up. Keep praying, keep, uh, 379 00:20:20,030 --> 00:20:23,030 S1: keep talking, keep answering questions and keep being honest when 380 00:20:23,030 --> 00:20:25,109 S1: you don't have all the answers. Right. 381 00:20:25,470 --> 00:20:29,950 S2: Exactly. And I think the best person to really, um, 382 00:20:29,990 --> 00:20:33,770 S2: encourage someone on that would be my wife because she 383 00:20:33,770 --> 00:20:36,850 S2: dealt with this for three years. Um, of me just 384 00:20:36,890 --> 00:20:39,330 S2: hammering her with with things that she couldn't answer. And 385 00:20:39,330 --> 00:20:43,010 S2: even looking back, she, she had mentioned to me that 386 00:20:43,010 --> 00:20:46,409 S2: she had Christian friends and family that she tried to 387 00:20:46,410 --> 00:20:49,450 S2: reach out to to help answer some of my questions. 388 00:20:49,609 --> 00:20:52,490 S2: And all they would say is, well, I'm praying for you. 389 00:20:52,530 --> 00:20:55,170 S2: I hope it all goes well and no one was 390 00:20:55,170 --> 00:20:58,970 S2: able to help her. Um, thankfully. Like, she was so 391 00:20:59,010 --> 00:21:02,330 S2: adamant and she was so persistent that I, I started 392 00:21:02,330 --> 00:21:06,050 S2: to do the research myself. And in doing that, me 393 00:21:06,130 --> 00:21:08,689 S2: and we've both grown in our faith. We've both grown 394 00:21:08,690 --> 00:21:11,890 S2: in being able to to give good reasons for why 395 00:21:11,890 --> 00:21:14,330 S2: we believe it. And I think that's the problem is 396 00:21:14,330 --> 00:21:16,090 S2: a lot of people are just told to believe it, 397 00:21:16,090 --> 00:21:18,250 S2: but they're not told why to believe it. 398 00:21:18,290 --> 00:21:18,889 S1: Right. 399 00:21:18,930 --> 00:21:20,889 S2: And especially for those. Yeah. 400 00:21:21,010 --> 00:21:24,210 S1: That's why when when a young person goes away to college, 401 00:21:24,250 --> 00:21:26,410 S1: you know, and has this crisis of faith or walks 402 00:21:26,410 --> 00:21:29,889 S1: away or whatever, and the deconstruction and all that, some 403 00:21:29,890 --> 00:21:33,030 S1: of that, I think is actually a good process to 404 00:21:33,070 --> 00:21:35,310 S1: look deeply and say, okay, why is it that I 405 00:21:35,310 --> 00:21:38,030 S1: believe what I believe? Is it just because somebody told 406 00:21:38,030 --> 00:21:41,950 S1: me so? Or is there is there real evidence here? 407 00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:44,030 S1: And that's what you unpack, right? 408 00:21:44,430 --> 00:21:47,550 S2: That's right, that's right. It's and that's and that's the 409 00:21:47,550 --> 00:21:50,869 S2: biggest problem is people are just not digging deep enough. They, 410 00:21:50,869 --> 00:21:53,510 S2: they either are are not they don't are not aware 411 00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:56,070 S2: of the evidences that are out there or they're not 412 00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:58,950 S2: taking the time to really just dive into those big 413 00:21:58,950 --> 00:22:02,790 S2: questions we all tend to believe in, in what the 414 00:22:02,790 --> 00:22:05,429 S2: people around us believe, and we kind of follow suit. 415 00:22:05,430 --> 00:22:08,629 S2: And reality is we need to always be seeking truth. 416 00:22:08,630 --> 00:22:10,270 S2: And I tell people all the time, if they want 417 00:22:10,310 --> 00:22:12,910 S2: to look at a different religion or a different belief system, 418 00:22:13,230 --> 00:22:17,710 S2: go for it. If you're genuinely seeking truth, I'm confident 419 00:22:17,710 --> 00:22:21,430 S2: that when you get to Christianity, um, it's going to 420 00:22:21,470 --> 00:22:23,270 S2: you're going to be able to find yourself to the truth, 421 00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:26,150 S2: just get rid of your biases, look deep enough, and 422 00:22:26,150 --> 00:22:29,710 S2: I'm confident that that Christianity will better explain the reality 423 00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:32,810 S2: we find ourselves in compared to every worldview out there. 424 00:22:32,850 --> 00:22:36,010 S1: Yes. That's the other thing that I think it was J. Warner. 425 00:22:36,010 --> 00:22:41,610 S1: Wallace talks about the, the, uh, the bias against evidence 426 00:22:41,609 --> 00:22:45,250 S1: that is, uh, that is there. Uh, let me have 427 00:22:45,250 --> 00:22:48,330 S1: a time out here. Universe designed is going to be 428 00:22:48,330 --> 00:22:52,250 S1: available in 11 days. It comes out December 13th on 429 00:22:52,250 --> 00:22:56,650 S1: streaming platforms, basically wherever you can rent a film, it's 430 00:22:56,650 --> 00:22:59,770 S1: going to be there. Write this down, put a star 431 00:22:59,770 --> 00:23:01,890 S1: beside it and say, Chris said, I need to see 432 00:23:01,890 --> 00:23:04,970 S1: this because it's going to encourage you if you're a believer. 433 00:23:04,970 --> 00:23:08,090 S1: You've been walking with Jesus for a long time. This 434 00:23:08,090 --> 00:23:10,890 S1: is going to encourage you, but it also is going 435 00:23:10,930 --> 00:23:13,930 S1: to give you ammunition is not the right word. It's 436 00:23:13,930 --> 00:23:17,730 S1: going to give you evidence and a reasoned way to 437 00:23:18,010 --> 00:23:23,330 S1: explain what you believe to somebody who may be pushing back, 438 00:23:23,530 --> 00:23:26,330 S1: like Michael Ray Lewis was doing with his wife for 439 00:23:26,330 --> 00:23:30,540 S1: a long time. And we've got a link at Chris. Fabry, Livorno. 440 00:23:30,820 --> 00:23:34,619 S1: You can find out. They'll send you a response about, 441 00:23:34,660 --> 00:23:36,620 S1: you know, hey, it's coming up and here's how you 442 00:23:36,619 --> 00:23:39,820 S1: can see it. But if you go to the website, 443 00:23:39,820 --> 00:23:42,379 S1: click through today's information. You could do that right there. 444 00:23:42,380 --> 00:23:48,660 S1: Chris Fabry, Livorno. Michael Ray Lewis is our guest. Universe 445 00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:52,860 S1: designed is the title of the film. And I want 446 00:23:52,859 --> 00:23:54,900 S1: to give you our phone number because my guess is 447 00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:58,780 S1: also there may be somebody listening right now who has 448 00:23:58,780 --> 00:24:01,340 S1: some of those questions, and you want to pose them 449 00:24:01,340 --> 00:24:03,740 S1: to Michael. You want to kind of push him up 450 00:24:03,740 --> 00:24:05,460 S1: against the wall and say, yeah, but what about this? 451 00:24:05,460 --> 00:24:12,140 S1: What about that? (877) 548-3675. I have a bunch of questions 452 00:24:12,140 --> 00:24:15,580 S1: like what was the what was the most favorite part 453 00:24:15,580 --> 00:24:18,020 S1: of putting this all together? You spent hours and hours 454 00:24:18,020 --> 00:24:21,220 S1: and hours working on this, but what was your favorite 455 00:24:21,220 --> 00:24:25,500 S1: part of of going and shooting something or having a 456 00:24:25,740 --> 00:24:29,240 S1: an interview with someone? Did something come to mind? 457 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,679 S2: Absolutely. Um, remember when I had mentioned that first video 458 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,560 S2: with Hugh Ross? Um, I ended up reading so many 459 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,440 S2: of his books and so many of all of these, 460 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,639 S2: these apologist books, and so being able to be in 461 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,840 S2: the room with the people who quite literally changed my life, uh, 462 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,040 S2: based on what they have written, um, that was an 463 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,200 S2: amazing experience. And on top of that, I've grown great 464 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,360 S2: relationships with some of these people. And, um, it's just 465 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,919 S2: it's crazy. Like, never in a million years would I 466 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,000 S2: have thought I would be here. I mean, before this, 467 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,800 S2: as an atheist, I was making films that were nowhere 468 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,000 S2: near anything with Christianity. I was making horror films at 469 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,159 S2: the time. And so when I met Jesus, it was 470 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:20,480 S2: a complete 180 and everything I perceived about reality. And, um, 471 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,600 S2: but I'm all in 100%. 472 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,680 S1: I love this story, and I love the film that 473 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,179 S1: we're talking about. Universe Designed. You can find out more 474 00:25:28,180 --> 00:25:32,180 S1: at the website. Chris Fabbri Livorno And if there's something 475 00:25:32,180 --> 00:25:35,780 S1: stirring in your heart because of our conversation today, here's 476 00:25:35,780 --> 00:25:42,740 S1: the phone number (877) 548-3675. The question you have a comment 477 00:25:42,740 --> 00:25:51,860 S1: (877) 548-3675 or go to the website Chris Livorno more straight ahead. 478 00:26:05,340 --> 00:26:06,300 S3: This is Chris Fabbri. 479 00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:08,500 S1: Live on Moody Radio. Thanks a lot for joining us today. 480 00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:12,020 S1: We're talking about a new film that's come out from 481 00:26:12,020 --> 00:26:16,620 S1: director and creator of the documentary universe designed comes out 482 00:26:16,619 --> 00:26:20,700 S1: December 13th. We have a link at Chris Fabbri Livorno. 483 00:26:20,980 --> 00:26:23,580 S1: Click through today's information. You'll see it right there. Michael 484 00:26:23,580 --> 00:26:27,080 S1: Ray Lewis is joining us at the back fence, and 485 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,800 S1: I want to give you an opportunity to talk with him. 486 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,800 S1: Ask a question. Make a comment today. Maybe your story 487 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,600 S1: is similar to his story had a big turnaround. You 488 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,919 S1: thought Christianity was for people who didn't have a mind, 489 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,159 S1: didn't believe in science, and now you see it a 490 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,880 S1: little differently, or that's what you believe today. Uh, philosophical 491 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,200 S1: naturalism bias is what came through in the film that 492 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,399 S1: I was trying to think of earlier. Let's talk with Rochelle, though, 493 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,960 S1: in Indiana. Rochelle, go right ahead. What's on your heart today. 494 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:05,000 S1: And I don't hear Rochelle okay. Good. So that's not good. 495 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,800 S1: But I don't hear her. And you don't hear her. 496 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,000 S2: Yeah I don't hear her either. 497 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,040 S1: Yeah. Good. Should I let me, uh, let me just 498 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,320 S1: give her a question. Unless, uh, Tricia is. Yeah. She 499 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,400 S1: has a brother. Michael. Uh, who's it? Sounds like he's 500 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,300 S1: coming to the end of his life. AIF he's turned 501 00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:29,380 S1: his back on God basically for his entire life. He's 502 00:27:29,380 --> 00:27:33,540 S1: done that. How does she reach into his life? How 503 00:27:33,540 --> 00:27:37,220 S1: does she reach him with the gospel without knowing anything 504 00:27:37,220 --> 00:27:40,500 S1: about his story or his background? What would you say 505 00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:41,220 S1: about that? 506 00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:46,740 S2: It's a difficult question to answer, especially without knowing the background, 507 00:27:46,740 --> 00:27:51,340 S2: because when I have conversations with people, one of the 508 00:27:51,340 --> 00:27:54,220 S2: biggest thing is to use questions to really draw out 509 00:27:54,260 --> 00:27:57,580 S2: what their objections are. What is it that's holding them back? 510 00:27:58,180 --> 00:28:01,620 S2: Is it an evidence problem, or is it maybe they've 511 00:28:01,619 --> 00:28:05,060 S2: been hurt by the church? Uh, there could be so 512 00:28:05,060 --> 00:28:08,300 S2: many number of reasons. But what I would emphasize, especially 513 00:28:08,300 --> 00:28:11,580 S2: in moments where if he's at the end of his life, 514 00:28:12,140 --> 00:28:14,220 S2: I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of suffering going 515 00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:17,540 S2: on there, and the suffering in the world is one 516 00:28:17,540 --> 00:28:20,900 S2: of the hardest things to respond to when you're having 517 00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:23,870 S2: conversations with people, especially people that are in the middle 518 00:28:23,869 --> 00:28:27,950 S2: of it. But the biggest thing that I would emphasize 519 00:28:27,950 --> 00:28:32,470 S2: is that we don't worship a God that's distant, uh, 520 00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:35,510 S2: or a god that doesn't understand the suffering. Uh, we 521 00:28:35,510 --> 00:28:39,430 S2: worship a God who's come and suffered alongside with us 522 00:28:39,910 --> 00:28:44,630 S2: and understands what we're going through. And not only that, 523 00:28:44,670 --> 00:28:47,550 S2: he suffers in a way that brings us into a 524 00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:51,590 S2: right relationship with him. And so I'd kind of mentioned 525 00:28:51,630 --> 00:28:55,590 S2: this earlier, but Jesus is standing right there with his 526 00:28:55,590 --> 00:28:58,550 S2: arms open, and all you have to do is fall 527 00:28:58,550 --> 00:29:03,270 S2: into his arms. And when you have conversations with people, 528 00:29:03,670 --> 00:29:06,830 S2: there are times that people reject that. They they don't 529 00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:10,590 S2: they don't want Jesus. Um, sometimes it may be because 530 00:29:10,590 --> 00:29:13,990 S2: they don't understand who Jesus is. Maybe they don't understand 531 00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:17,710 S2: what Christianity is and what it's all about. Um, but 532 00:29:17,710 --> 00:29:22,170 S2: I would I would extremely urge you to have a 533 00:29:22,170 --> 00:29:25,010 S2: conversation with him. Even if you don't know all the answers, 534 00:29:25,330 --> 00:29:27,810 S2: just just try to have a conversation with them, sympathize 535 00:29:27,810 --> 00:29:32,010 S2: with them, and you never know where that conversation may go, 536 00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:34,610 S2: especially if it's towards the end of his life. He's 537 00:29:34,610 --> 00:29:37,250 S2: got to be thinking about the big questions of why 538 00:29:37,250 --> 00:29:40,210 S2: he's here. What, what what's the reason for all this? 539 00:29:40,210 --> 00:29:43,450 S2: What's the purpose for all of this? Um, and so 540 00:29:43,450 --> 00:29:45,770 S2: I would highly recommend that you have have a conversation 541 00:29:45,770 --> 00:29:48,970 S2: with them because I missed out on that opportunity with, 542 00:29:48,970 --> 00:29:51,610 S2: with my grandmother who was passing away in the hospital. 543 00:29:51,890 --> 00:29:55,490 S2: This was around the beginning moments of me giving my 544 00:29:55,490 --> 00:29:57,890 S2: life to Christ. I wasn't yet confident enough to share 545 00:29:57,890 --> 00:30:02,090 S2: my faith, and because of that lack of confidence, I 546 00:30:02,090 --> 00:30:04,570 S2: chose not to have a conversation, be afraid it was 547 00:30:04,570 --> 00:30:07,610 S2: going to be awkward. And my grandmother passed away in 548 00:30:07,610 --> 00:30:10,930 S2: the hospital before I was bold enough to have that conversation. 549 00:30:10,930 --> 00:30:13,890 S2: And so I made a commitment that no matter what, um, 550 00:30:13,890 --> 00:30:16,010 S2: I was not going to going to go by without 551 00:30:16,050 --> 00:30:20,330 S2: talking about Jesus to someone. And so, um, I, of course, 552 00:30:20,330 --> 00:30:22,870 S2: keep you in my prayers and and encourage you to 553 00:30:22,910 --> 00:30:24,350 S2: have that conversation with him. 554 00:30:25,390 --> 00:30:27,550 S1: Yeah, Rochelle. And they're going to be some folks around 555 00:30:27,550 --> 00:30:29,870 S1: the country who are going to pray for you as 556 00:30:29,870 --> 00:30:36,150 S1: well in that situation with this. I believe it's your brother. Yeah. Um, 557 00:30:37,070 --> 00:30:40,390 S1: so is that your hope for a film like this? 558 00:30:40,390 --> 00:30:44,150 S1: Because it's very, you know, it starts with Stephen Hawking, 559 00:30:44,150 --> 00:30:46,990 S1: and I'll read the quote, look up at the stars 560 00:30:46,990 --> 00:30:49,110 S1: and not down at your feet. Try to make sense 561 00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:51,870 S1: of what you see and wonder about what makes the 562 00:30:51,870 --> 00:30:58,390 S1: universe universe exist. Be curious. That's what Stephen Hawking said. 563 00:30:58,430 --> 00:31:02,190 S1: And so that's basically where you start. You're just curious 564 00:31:02,430 --> 00:31:06,950 S1: about what is here, how it got here. Uh, who 565 00:31:06,950 --> 00:31:09,710 S1: is behind it if there is someone. Those were all 566 00:31:09,710 --> 00:31:11,030 S1: your questions, right? 567 00:31:11,470 --> 00:31:14,870 S2: That's right. And the I think these are questions that 568 00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:17,550 S2: we all have, but they're questions that fade away over 569 00:31:17,550 --> 00:31:20,730 S2: time because we get busy with life, we get busy 570 00:31:20,730 --> 00:31:24,090 S2: with social media and trying to make money to survive. 571 00:31:24,370 --> 00:31:27,850 S2: And there's so much going on that we don't stop 572 00:31:27,850 --> 00:31:30,170 S2: and think about the big questions of life anymore. And 573 00:31:30,170 --> 00:31:32,690 S2: that that's my challenge at the beginning of the film 574 00:31:32,690 --> 00:31:35,090 S2: is like, take a step back, take a step back 575 00:31:35,090 --> 00:31:38,050 S2: and look around at where you are. Why are you here? 576 00:31:38,370 --> 00:31:41,770 S2: Why are you not only are you in a universe 577 00:31:41,770 --> 00:31:43,810 S2: that you shouldn't be in based on the laws of physics, 578 00:31:43,850 --> 00:31:48,090 S2: like the fine tuning of the universe is in is immense. 579 00:31:48,330 --> 00:31:50,250 S2: But not only are you here, but you're here able 580 00:31:50,250 --> 00:31:53,410 S2: to ask the question, why am I here? And so 581 00:31:53,410 --> 00:31:56,410 S2: I think we need to start thinking, uh, asking those 582 00:31:56,410 --> 00:31:59,770 S2: big questions again and start really taking a step back 583 00:32:00,050 --> 00:32:03,370 S2: and just looking at reality and trying to find the answers. 584 00:32:04,330 --> 00:32:07,810 S1: Why is there something rather than nothing? That's another another 585 00:32:07,810 --> 00:32:11,530 S1: big question that you take us through. And then, uh, 586 00:32:11,530 --> 00:32:15,770 S1: you know, for Rochelle's brother, what you know, he may 587 00:32:15,810 --> 00:32:19,740 S1: say right now, there's nothing Once, once my life is over, 588 00:32:19,740 --> 00:32:24,100 S1: there is nothing. Well, what if that's not true? What 589 00:32:24,100 --> 00:32:29,300 S1: if those who have been there and have come back 590 00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:32,740 S1: and there's one that. The only one that I trust fully. Uh. 591 00:32:32,740 --> 00:32:37,380 S1: What if. What if there is something after this? And 592 00:32:37,380 --> 00:32:40,820 S1: what if you miss the best thing of your life 593 00:32:40,820 --> 00:32:44,180 S1: by not asking that question and moving toward those who 594 00:32:44,180 --> 00:32:45,700 S1: have the answers to that? 595 00:32:46,580 --> 00:32:51,900 S2: Exactly. I mean, it's the the wait. If it's true, 596 00:32:52,340 --> 00:32:54,500 S2: the weight of it is so much more important than 597 00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:56,980 S2: if it's not true. If it's not true, as Paul says, 598 00:32:56,980 --> 00:32:59,620 S2: you can consider us all, all of most to be pitied. 599 00:33:00,180 --> 00:33:03,180 S2: But if it is true, then it's the most important 600 00:33:03,180 --> 00:33:06,020 S2: question we can ask. All of these other things in 601 00:33:06,020 --> 00:33:10,780 S2: life just don't matter in comparison to these big questions. And, um, 602 00:33:10,780 --> 00:33:14,180 S2: you're absolutely right. Uh, that's something that we all need 603 00:33:14,180 --> 00:33:15,700 S2: to ask. What if it's true? 604 00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:20,560 S1: If you had seen this film when you were in 605 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,520 S1: your teen years or in your earlier 20s, would this 606 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:25,760 S1: have changed your mind? 607 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,600 S2: You know, I don't know. I know it would have 608 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,120 S2: piqued my curiosity, because when I made this film, that 609 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,040 S2: was actually my target audience was my previous atheist self. 610 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,280 S2: That's who I was targeting. Um, and so I would 611 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,520 S2: hope that it would reach me. But, you know, I 612 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,840 S2: think God puts us on particular paths, and he only 613 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,200 S2: he gives us a sufficient information for for whatever he's 614 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,320 S2: doing in our life. And I think the whole the 615 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,480 S2: reason it like he's got reasons for why it took 616 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,680 S2: three years to for me to be persuaded, uh, there's 617 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,400 S2: reasons I was raised the way that I was, um, 618 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,600 S2: that that made me want to make a film like this. 619 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,880 S2: And so that's my goal that this film will be for, um, 620 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,520 S2: for me, whenever I was genuinely open to taking a 621 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,279 S2: look at the evidence. Um, it's for genuine seekers. They're 622 00:34:15,380 --> 00:34:17,540 S2: going to be atheists out there that don't that will 623 00:34:17,540 --> 00:34:20,500 S2: just say, well, that's not proof, but there are people 624 00:34:20,500 --> 00:34:23,420 S2: out there who are genuinely open and and willing to 625 00:34:23,460 --> 00:34:25,980 S2: lay their bias down to, to take a look at 626 00:34:25,980 --> 00:34:26,779 S2: the evidence. 627 00:34:27,180 --> 00:34:29,819 S1: That was the other thing that came through, and that 628 00:34:29,820 --> 00:34:35,980 S1: was a sense of the humility to put aside what 629 00:34:35,980 --> 00:34:40,020 S1: you had always believed in and the the dominoes that fall, 630 00:34:40,020 --> 00:34:43,899 S1: if you say, uh, wait a minute, if that's true, 631 00:34:44,020 --> 00:34:46,260 S1: then all of this that I've kind of based my 632 00:34:46,260 --> 00:34:49,580 S1: life on, that's a very scary thing to go through. 633 00:34:49,580 --> 00:34:54,380 S1: So it takes a certain amount of humility and open handedness, which, uh, 634 00:34:54,380 --> 00:34:59,220 S1: was the drive back when you were talking with the apologist? 635 00:34:59,420 --> 00:35:02,940 S1: That's what happened in that car, was, I'm opening my 636 00:35:02,940 --> 00:35:04,180 S1: hands to you. God. 637 00:35:04,980 --> 00:35:08,259 S2: That's right. And it's interesting because that day on the 638 00:35:08,260 --> 00:35:12,180 S2: drive home, I could confidently say, looking back at it, 639 00:35:12,180 --> 00:35:15,200 S2: I don't even think I really understood the gravity of 640 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,319 S2: the gospel in that moment. It was actually after I 641 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,680 S2: came home and had the conversation with my wife, is 642 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,360 S2: when it really started to sink in, that separation from God. 643 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,759 S2: But that day on the drive home, it was it 644 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,719 S2: was almost like I had lived my entire life with 645 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,399 S2: some foggy glasses on, and I had finally taken off 646 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,840 S2: the glasses. And I looked around and you could just 647 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,120 S2: see reality for the way it actually is. And there 648 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,200 S2: was such clarity in it. And I think that was 649 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,040 S2: the moment I went from believing that it's true to 650 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,919 S2: knowing that it's true. And so that when I was 651 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,920 S2: really faced with the gospel, I was I was ready 652 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,280 S2: to say yes, to say I give my life to you. 653 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,279 S1: And then taking that step, because that's another part of 654 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,719 S1: the especially toward the end of the film. And I 655 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,000 S1: want to talk about that in our last segment. This 656 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,240 S1: is Chris Fabry live. Michael Ray Lewis is with us. 657 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:16,419 S1: Filmmaker of universe designed it streams December 13th wherever you stream. 658 00:36:16,860 --> 00:36:20,819 S1: Just go to Chris Live.com. Click through today's information. You'll 659 00:36:20,820 --> 00:36:39,820 S1: see it right there Chris Fabry live. Our remaining moments 660 00:36:39,820 --> 00:36:43,100 S1: with Michael Ray Lewis. You've heard his story today. You 661 00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:48,540 S1: can see his film beginning December 13th. Universe designed. It 662 00:36:48,540 --> 00:36:51,739 S1: has all of these folks in it like J. Warner Wallace, 663 00:36:51,780 --> 00:36:55,180 S1: Hugh Ross, Stephen Meyer and Frank Turek, Alisa Childers and 664 00:36:55,180 --> 00:36:58,380 S1: Greg Kokal, and Sean McDowell and Alan Parr and others 665 00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:03,500 S1: that who are interviewed. Um, and then it's just this, 666 00:37:04,060 --> 00:37:10,299 S1: this pastiche of apologetics taking you from general relativity and 667 00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:15,870 S1: Einstein and Hubble to Stephen Hawking and then beyond through 668 00:37:15,870 --> 00:37:19,790 S1: the the pages of Scripture. Can we really trust these 669 00:37:19,790 --> 00:37:23,510 S1: documents and a whole lot more? But we were talking 670 00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:27,350 S1: with Rochelle in the break, Michael, and she gave us 671 00:37:27,350 --> 00:37:31,750 S1: a little more story, backstory of her brother and the 672 00:37:31,750 --> 00:37:34,510 S1: struggle that he had gone through was her. Her. His 673 00:37:34,510 --> 00:37:38,150 S1: mother became a Christian at an early age and then 674 00:37:38,190 --> 00:37:41,910 S1: kind of embraced Jesus. But let him go. And he 675 00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:46,669 S1: felt this alienation from her and from the family and 676 00:37:46,710 --> 00:37:50,870 S1: had kind of bitterness toward God. And that's one of 677 00:37:50,870 --> 00:37:52,950 S1: the reasons why he turned his back on God. At 678 00:37:52,989 --> 00:37:57,910 S1: least that's from her perspective. That's what she sees. And 679 00:37:57,910 --> 00:38:01,710 S1: and the other aspect of it is, can God forgive 680 00:38:01,750 --> 00:38:05,630 S1: someone who has turned his back and has bitterness? Can 681 00:38:05,670 --> 00:38:08,350 S1: God forgive someone who has said, you know terrible things 682 00:38:08,350 --> 00:38:13,290 S1: about God Uh, throughout his life. Perhaps there is that 683 00:38:13,330 --> 00:38:16,730 S1: hurdle as well. So with that information, anything different you 684 00:38:16,730 --> 00:38:17,330 S1: would say? 685 00:38:18,330 --> 00:38:21,770 S2: Uh, the few things I would add is to just 686 00:38:22,250 --> 00:38:26,969 S2: for one, you can't base a belief system, uh, based 687 00:38:26,969 --> 00:38:32,090 S2: on its abuse. And so we can't judge Jesus based 688 00:38:32,090 --> 00:38:35,609 S2: on the followers of Jesus. Um, we need to to 689 00:38:35,650 --> 00:38:38,529 S2: listen to the words of Jesus himself. And so I 690 00:38:38,530 --> 00:38:43,050 S2: would try to encourage him to take a look at Jesus, 691 00:38:43,489 --> 00:38:47,250 S2: not the people that maybe he's had bad experiences with 692 00:38:47,290 --> 00:38:50,569 S2: in life or interactions with in life, and try to 693 00:38:50,610 --> 00:38:54,130 S2: look at at the one who's really making the claims 694 00:38:54,130 --> 00:38:57,370 S2: about reality. And that would be Jesus. And the other 695 00:38:57,370 --> 00:39:01,730 S2: thing I would say is, if you're worried about what 696 00:39:01,730 --> 00:39:04,250 S2: you've done in life or what you're afraid you may 697 00:39:04,250 --> 00:39:07,050 S2: not be forgiven for, just look at the the track 698 00:39:07,050 --> 00:39:10,549 S2: record of all of Scripture. All the different types of 699 00:39:10,550 --> 00:39:14,790 S2: people that that are forgiven us and that Jesus even 700 00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:18,669 S2: calls like my beloved sons like he he. I think 701 00:39:18,670 --> 00:39:23,509 S2: it's important for us to immerse ourselves in the reality 702 00:39:23,510 --> 00:39:27,549 S2: of what he says, and if we will just give 703 00:39:27,550 --> 00:39:30,549 S2: our life to him, he will forgive us. And you 704 00:39:30,550 --> 00:39:33,430 S2: think about all the people who've who've completely turned their 705 00:39:33,430 --> 00:39:37,070 S2: back on, on Christ. I think a lot of them 706 00:39:37,070 --> 00:39:41,670 S2: are probably not even turning their back on who Jesus 707 00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:43,910 S2: actually is, but they're turning their back on who they 708 00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:45,070 S2: think Jesus is. 709 00:39:46,030 --> 00:39:50,310 S1: Exactly. Yeah. And that and that preconceived notion or what 710 00:39:50,310 --> 00:39:55,190 S1: they had lived before them. Um, I really I really 711 00:39:55,190 --> 00:39:57,630 S1: liked what Frank Turek said when you kind of pushed 712 00:39:57,630 --> 00:40:00,509 S1: him to the edge. And this doesn't necessarily fit with 713 00:40:00,510 --> 00:40:04,750 S1: Rochelle's brother, but when he he gave a talk and 714 00:40:04,750 --> 00:40:06,989 S1: at the end, he knew there was an atheist in 715 00:40:07,030 --> 00:40:11,370 S1: the audience who raised his hand and brought up evil. 716 00:40:11,410 --> 00:40:14,370 S1: You know why? If God is all good and powerful, 717 00:40:14,370 --> 00:40:16,930 S1: why would he allow evil? Which is, you know, that's 718 00:40:16,930 --> 00:40:22,410 S1: a legitimate question. But what what Frank said was, well, 719 00:40:22,690 --> 00:40:26,450 S1: I know one thing that he would do. I'm paraphrasing here, 720 00:40:26,450 --> 00:40:28,810 S1: but he would deal with it in you, and he 721 00:40:28,810 --> 00:40:31,969 S1: would deal with it in me because everybody likes to deal. 722 00:40:32,010 --> 00:40:35,370 S1: Talk about the evil that's out there. We never like 723 00:40:35,370 --> 00:40:39,969 S1: to talk about our own, uh fallenness. Or the our 724 00:40:40,010 --> 00:40:42,850 S1: own choices that we make. And I thought that was 725 00:40:42,850 --> 00:40:44,450 S1: a really good point to make. 726 00:40:45,130 --> 00:40:47,529 S2: It is we we tend to. And the scriptures even 727 00:40:47,530 --> 00:40:50,690 S2: say we suppress it, we suppress. So we some of 728 00:40:50,690 --> 00:40:54,330 S2: us have even convinced ourselves that, oh, I'm a good person, right? I, 729 00:40:55,330 --> 00:40:57,569 S2: I'm a genuinely good person. But when you really start 730 00:40:57,570 --> 00:41:00,490 S2: to probe yourself and look deep within yourself, you'll see, 731 00:41:00,530 --> 00:41:02,730 S2: like even as Greg Kokal says in the film, there's 732 00:41:02,730 --> 00:41:05,529 S2: this sense of guilt that we all have, and it's like, 733 00:41:05,530 --> 00:41:08,780 S2: why do we feel guilty? Um, well, we feel guilty. 734 00:41:08,780 --> 00:41:13,420 S2: Probably because we are guilty. But that's what's amazing about 735 00:41:13,420 --> 00:41:16,420 S2: the Christian worldview, is that with all the evil and 736 00:41:16,420 --> 00:41:19,020 S2: suffering that we see in the world, it not only 737 00:41:19,020 --> 00:41:23,060 S2: best best explains why that evil and suffering is there, 738 00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:27,339 S2: but it's the only worldview that gives the problem or 739 00:41:27,380 --> 00:41:31,219 S2: gives the solution to the problem. Um, there's no other 740 00:41:31,219 --> 00:41:34,419 S2: worldview that does, and I think that's another reason why 741 00:41:34,460 --> 00:41:37,540 S2: Christianity really does best explain our reality. 742 00:41:38,140 --> 00:41:41,779 S1: The only time I hear your voice in the film 743 00:41:42,140 --> 00:41:44,980 S1: is toward the end, when you talk with a homicide. 744 00:41:45,219 --> 00:41:49,740 S1: Homicide detective to you ask. You talk to the person 745 00:41:49,739 --> 00:41:52,779 S1: who's not a Christian who is watching this. And I 746 00:41:52,780 --> 00:41:56,020 S1: thought it was really interesting because I expected to hear 747 00:41:56,020 --> 00:41:58,620 S1: a little bit of your story kind of woven into. 748 00:41:58,660 --> 00:42:02,180 S1: And it's not in there. You didn't include that. Um, 749 00:42:02,180 --> 00:42:04,780 S1: but I do hear your voice, and that's a really 750 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,359 S1: important question you ask at the end, isn't it? 751 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,520 S2: Yes. Yeah. One of the things that it's kind of 752 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,000 S2: interesting how the whole film fell together. I had so 753 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,000 S2: many people telling me to include myself in it and 754 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,440 S2: give my testimony and kind of be like a narrator. 755 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,839 S2: Narrator for the film. And I just. I felt it 756 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,759 S2: didn't need that. Um, I wanted the film to be 757 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:31,319 S2: completely centered on the claims of Jesus and who Jesus was. 758 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,359 S2: And so the way that I decided to guide that 759 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,239 S2: was to not have a narrator, the audience is going 760 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,160 S2: to be able to go through this, um, basically just 761 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,400 S2: laying the evidence out in front of them and letting 762 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,640 S2: them come to the conclusion at the end of the film. 763 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,080 S2: And you're right, the question I asked one question in 764 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,320 S2: there and says, what would you say to those unbelievers? 765 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,880 S2: And I think that's the reason I wanted to include 766 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,680 S2: that was because that's the entire reason for making the 767 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:02,879 S2: documentary is to reach non-believers. It's an evangelistic tool. It's 768 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,180 S2: a great film for believers, for us to encourage, get encouraged, 769 00:43:06,180 --> 00:43:08,580 S2: and the fact that what we believe is actually true, 770 00:43:08,980 --> 00:43:11,180 S2: but it's also an evangelistic tool for you to go 771 00:43:11,180 --> 00:43:14,219 S2: out and while you're having conversations with someone, maybe they 772 00:43:14,219 --> 00:43:16,060 S2: won't read a book, but maybe they'll watch a film, 773 00:43:16,060 --> 00:43:17,980 S2: or maybe you could invite them to watch the film 774 00:43:17,980 --> 00:43:21,819 S2: with you. And the hope is that this may pique 775 00:43:21,860 --> 00:43:25,540 S2: the curiosity of your friends, your family members, all those 776 00:43:25,540 --> 00:43:28,380 S2: people that you've been praying for for so long to 777 00:43:28,420 --> 00:43:30,740 S2: find Jesus. The hope is that this will plant a 778 00:43:30,739 --> 00:43:31,700 S2: stone in their shoe. 779 00:43:32,460 --> 00:43:34,819 S1: Especially at this time of year. You know, in the 780 00:43:34,820 --> 00:43:38,940 S1: Christmas season when when we're reflecting on our purpose and 781 00:43:38,940 --> 00:43:43,339 S1: meaning and hope and belief, uh, you just and you 782 00:43:43,340 --> 00:43:46,500 S1: end with, O come, O come, Emmanuel, God with us 783 00:43:46,780 --> 00:43:51,860 S1: with that song. Uh, spoiler alert, folks, uh, because that is, 784 00:43:51,900 --> 00:43:54,580 S1: it's on people's minds this time of year, isn't it? 785 00:43:55,140 --> 00:43:58,299 S2: It absolutely is. And you know what's interesting about that song? 786 00:43:58,620 --> 00:44:02,140 S2: I never anticipated this to be released in December. Um, 787 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,520 S2: I originally thought that this film was going to take 788 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,439 S2: me about a year to make, and it's been four 789 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:11,120 S2: years now, and I think the patience that God has 790 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,319 S2: instilled in me, um, he's kind of forced me to 791 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,560 S2: be patient through the whole process. And it's just it's 792 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,120 S2: crazy how things fall together and just the timing with 793 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,400 S2: everything that's going on in the world right now. And, 794 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,080 S2: and this is the time that it's being released. Um, 795 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,120 S2: and so I completely can just take a step back 796 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,360 S2: and see what God is doing. And it's amazing. 797 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:39,360 S1: It explores the intersection of science, philosophy and faith that 798 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:45,440 S1: some people say are, uh, in conflict. But throughout this film, 799 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,200 S1: and I saw it a little earlier today, and it 800 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:53,240 S1: is just, uh, gorgeously shot and well put together, well designed. 801 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,399 S1: I'll say it that way. Um, and it and it 802 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,320 S1: really spoke deeply to me as a, as a follower 803 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,810 S1: of Jesus. And I know it's going to do the 804 00:45:02,810 --> 00:45:06,049 S1: same to those who are asking those hard questions. Or 805 00:45:06,050 --> 00:45:10,170 S1: maybe somebody like your wife before she said, you know, 806 00:45:10,210 --> 00:45:14,290 S1: I feel like Jesus is calling me home, calling me 807 00:45:14,290 --> 00:45:18,009 S1: back to him. It might speak to somebody who is 808 00:45:18,010 --> 00:45:20,050 S1: on that trail as well, don't you think? 809 00:45:20,370 --> 00:45:22,410 S2: Absolutely. It absolutely will. 810 00:45:23,250 --> 00:45:25,170 S1: Michael, it's great to meet you. Do you have another 811 00:45:25,170 --> 00:45:28,489 S1: project in the works? Is something that's burning in your 812 00:45:28,489 --> 00:45:30,130 S1: soul that you want to put on film? 813 00:45:30,810 --> 00:45:34,170 S2: Oh, there's so many ideas that I have. I know 814 00:45:34,170 --> 00:45:38,009 S2: that I so I did this entire film through donations, 815 00:45:38,010 --> 00:45:42,690 S2: through people helping me put this together and any funds 816 00:45:42,690 --> 00:45:45,770 S2: that it produces, I am going to continue to make 817 00:45:45,770 --> 00:45:50,570 S2: films geared towards apologetics and geared towards helping people defend 818 00:45:50,570 --> 00:45:53,450 S2: their faith and helping people become aware of the evidences 819 00:45:53,450 --> 00:45:57,530 S2: that are out there. So many ideas are in the works, but, um, 820 00:45:58,450 --> 00:46:01,030 S2: it all depends on how this film does. And and 821 00:46:01,030 --> 00:46:02,590 S2: I'm excited to see what happens. 822 00:46:03,070 --> 00:46:06,270 S1: Well, thank you for spending the time with us today. 823 00:46:06,270 --> 00:46:10,589 S1: And and I expect to get email on December 13th 824 00:46:10,590 --> 00:46:14,030 S1: and beyond of people who say, I had no idea 825 00:46:14,070 --> 00:46:16,790 S1: I hadn't heard of Universe Designed. I didn't know who 826 00:46:16,830 --> 00:46:20,870 S1: Michael Ray Lewis was as a filmmaker. Thank you for 827 00:46:20,870 --> 00:46:23,750 S1: telling me about this. It's going to be streaming December 828 00:46:23,750 --> 00:46:26,990 S1: 13th and beyond. You can find a link at Chris 829 00:46:26,989 --> 00:46:35,910 S1: Fabry Livorno Chris Fabry, Livorno again, universe designed. Tomorrow we're 830 00:46:35,910 --> 00:46:38,149 S1: going to try to make it happen. Keith Getty is 831 00:46:38,150 --> 00:46:39,870 S1: going to be here. We're going to play a new 832 00:46:39,870 --> 00:46:43,270 S1: song from the Getty's. You have to hear this right 833 00:46:43,270 --> 00:46:46,509 S1: here on Chris Fabry live production of Moody Radio, a 834 00:46:46,510 --> 00:46:50,230 S1: ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks a lot for listening.